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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
atrum dux
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:28:00 -
[811] - Quote
So it worked as intended until some guys decided to throw in some billions of isk on their own to help the oppressed. CCP wants the minmatar back into slavery. Someone should batphone the UN. |
Wille Sanara
Felador night Corp
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:28:00 -
[812] - Quote
So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP? |
saltrock0000
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:29:00 -
[813] - Quote
So CCP just totaly went against thier entire ethos.
"Eve is a sandbox"
Yet CCP changed the average price of items on the market. Not very much of a sandbox if you ask me, CCP should pick a stance on the whole thing and stick to it, not allow alot of lets be honest bannable things because "eves a sandbox" and then act on others because "eves a sandbox".
Goons really opened my eyes to what a hypocritical company CCP is, picking the line "eves a sandbox" when they cant be bother'd to act on something, like say, hulkageddon or griefing. Then instantly jumping on something like this.
All goons did to my understanding was play the games withing the rules, with some amrket manipulation afterall eves a sandbox.
Byt the way did i mention "EVES A SANDBOX" |
atrum dux
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:32:00 -
[814] - Quote
Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market? |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:32:00 -
[815] - Quote
atrum dux wrote:So it worked as intended until some guys decided to throw in some billions of isk on their own to help the oppressed. CCP wants the minmatar back into slavery. Someone should batphone the UN.
I doubt it worked as intended. At all.
The description makes it clear people found an exploit..and exploited it.
This is a no brainer really.
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:33:00 -
[816] - Quote
Kmelx wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Empty threats, best threats! Keep in mind that CCP Sreegs is the one who disqualified Hydra and OB from ATX. He is also the one who routinely seizes ISK and assets, and applies the ban hammer, to RMT accounts. He would not be my first choice of CCP devs to accuse of making empty threats. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:33:00 -
[817] - Quote
atrum dux wrote:Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market?
Nope.
Bug abuse i think is whats being referenced. |
Wasse
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:34:00 -
[818] - Quote
Mme Pinkerton wrote:Crellion wrote:Wasse wrote:I really fail to understand how or why anyone could call this an exploit of a bug.
there are bugs in game design and there are bugs in the implementation of game design. this is one of the former.
As someone who works for a software company (business software, but still software), I've never once heard bad design called a bug. Really, this is the difference.
Bug = code not doing what it was supposed to. Bad Design = Well, bad Design. Things happen that you didn't intend to happen, but it's not a direct result. It's a result of gaming the system.
In my realm, if the GL account suddenly goes negative $150,000, and there is no reason for it, that's a bug. In essence, the software took money away. It got lost somewhere. Or if it went positive $150,000, it created money in some transaction.
Bug. That's not what happened here.
On the other hand, if a sales guy figured out how to get game the Incentives module - and figured out the best practice for getting extra incentives - well, that's bad design. Not a bug. Just he gamed the system.
That's what they did here. They looked at the rules, and they used the rules to their advantage. Period. |
Khardia Melanchton
Booomer Inc. Broken Toys
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:35:00 -
[819] - Quote
My congratulations to the folks creating this really impressive market manipulation strategy. I was really impressed about your creativity and analytical abilities. Was great for me to read, and I must say, I really felt like a noob compared to this great idea. Wow!
Nevertheless, we will see how the market reacts to it. As a strong believer in market mechanism, you may end up finding that your increadible wealth is just several magnitutes smaller than you think right now. From a economical perspective you (1) removed a reasonable amount of ISK from the game and (2) piled up huge stocks of LP items, as it seems mostly implants and faction ships. A non-fail market will react to this with falling prices for such items and higher prices for ISK, which means, the prices for the items you gained will drop dramatically. Actually, they already dropped.
As clever you behaved, I am sure, you are aware of this and will either try to sell items before the market really found it's new equilibrium or sell only in small amounts over a very long time period.
However, your profit from this impressive market manipulation will, nevertheless, be HUGE!
My congratulations, this was a coup! Khardia |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:36:00 -
[820] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit?
Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have. Nothing was exploited at all. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
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Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:36:00 -
[821] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:So CCP just totaly went against thier entire ethos.
"Eve is a sandbox"
Yet CCP changed the average price of items on the market. Not very much of a sandbox if you ask me, CCP should pick a stance on the whole thing and stick to it, not allow alot of lets be honest bannable things because "eves a sandbox" and then act on others because "eves a sandbox".
Goons really opened my eyes to what a hypocritical company CCP is, picking the line "eves a sandbox" when they cant be bother'd to act on something, like say, hulkageddon or griefing. Then instantly jumping on something like this.
All goons did to my understanding was play the games withing the rules, with some amrket manipulation afterall eves a sandbox.
Byt the way did i mention "EVES A SANDBOX"
I don't think this is accurate at all. Its very strawman.
If someone breaks your game, you fix it. Thats what you do.
I think the quote : "By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse"
Lets you know what occurred.
Abuse.
Profiting from abuse, in any form, really needs to be stamped out. Otherwise you'll have a ton of people saying "But i didn't know it was bug abuse" as they try to tear the systems apart looking for the next exploit.
This is the same as the Reactions exploit. No different.
|
Scottacus XIV
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:37:00 -
[822] - Quote
Crellion wrote:I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's :P
Actually, because of the nature of what they did, no ISK was created. Instead, they had to pay ISK (this destroys the ISK) into the LP stores in order to receive items which they then sold to players for their ISK. In fact, because the ISK was destroyed, there is less ISK in three system. Therefore, your ISK is now worth very very slightly more than it did before.
What they did do, however, was flood the market with LP items and devalue the **** out of them. |
Wasse
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:38:00 -
[823] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit? Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have.
Similar idea. I think cloakies camping in systems is bad game design. Cloaking was never intended for such a purpose. Since they can essentially stop someone from making isk in that system, we should make their wallets go negative for it.
After all, they are exploiting bad game design. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:41:00 -
[824] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit? Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have.
Is debuffing your ships so they have unlimited range an exploit?
1: Was this the intended use of this mechanic? No
2: Were the people involved aware this was not the intended use of this mechanic? Yes
3: Did the people involved profit from the unintended use of this mechanic? Yes
I understand these people are your friends, in your corp. And i understand some people see "Goonswarm" and go crazy due to some perceived hatred of a group of players just playing the game. So it seems as if GSF is being attacked. I hope i don't come across as anti-GSF, that isnt the case I assure you.
This isn't really a metagame issue.
Whoever did this, no matter what corp they are in, did bug abuse.
Its a no brainer.
I've banned players on our games for less. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:41:00 -
[825] - Quote
Wasse wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit? Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have. Similar idea. I think cloakies camping in systems is bad game design. Cloaking was never intended for such a purpose. Since they can essentially stop someone from making isk in that system, we should make their wallets go negative for it. After all, they are exploiting bad game design.
Your debate style is terrible. One is not related to another!
|
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:42:00 -
[826] - Quote
Wille Sanara wrote:So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP? By that logic neut logis should be banhammered, people evading wardecs through neutral alts should be banhammered, people blapping BSes with tracking-fit titans should be banhammered etc. |
Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:43:00 -
[827] - Quote
Thanks for ruining the FW and the LP market you attention starved jerks! About time you shove off and ruin a different game don't you think?! I look forward to your bans for exploiting game mechanics and will be here drinking in the oceans of tears from your fellow alliance mates crying about how their buddy was given the kick to the curb.
-2 accounts till goons are removed from the game. They say they bring content, but it is in fact a complete load of bullshit. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:44:00 -
[828] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Wille Sanara wrote:So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP? By that logic neut logis should be banhammered, people evading wardecs through neutral alts should be banhammered, people blapping BSes with tracking-fit titans should be banhammered etc.
Not sure if serious.
The logic isnt the same. If X then Y does not follow If A,,B,C then Y.
|
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:48:00 -
[829] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Thanks for ruining the FW and the LP market you attention starved jerks! About time you shove off and ruin a different game don't you think?! I look forward to your bans for exploiting game mechanics and will be here drinking in the oceans of tears from your fellow alliance mates crying about how their buddy was given the kick to the curb.
-2 accounts till goons are removed from the game. They say they bring content, but it is in fact a complete load of bullshit.
Ok, come wipe us out. Should be easy, most people in game hate us, so make a huge alliance and come curb stomp us. Eve allows you to do this. There's your player created content.
Oh yeah, you're a pubbie. You'll just cry to CCP to remove game challenges for you. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Kinis Deren
EVE University Ivy League
55
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:48:00 -
[830] - Quote
I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO.
Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat
How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? |
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ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:49:00 -
[831] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit? Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have. Is debuffing your ships so they have unlimited range an exploit? 1: Was this the intended use of this mechanic? No 2: Were the people involved aware this was not the intended use of this mechanic? Yes 3: Did the people involved profit from the unintended use of this mechanic? Yes
Did they notify CCP? Yes
Did they receive a reply that informed them such actions were illegal in the game? No |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:51:00 -
[832] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote: Did they notify CCP? Yes
Did they receive a reply that informed them such actions were illegal in the game? No
This post, while accurate, will be completely ignored. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:54:00 -
[833] - Quote
Wasse wrote: As someone who works for a software company (business software, but still software), I've never once heard bad design called a bug.
A design feature which is coded correctly, but does not work as intended in the field, is indeed known as a design "bug".
These sorts of bugs happen frequently in large, complex software systems, where it is difficult or impossible to work out all of the possible use cases, via QA or simulation, prior to release.
Perhaps you remember the Patriot Missile software failure during the Gulf War, which resulted in a failed Scud intercept and the deaths of 28 US soldiers? This failure was due to a design bug, not a coding bug. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:55:00 -
[834] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO.
Heads will not roll, because this is a game, and further, a computer program. Computer programs have bugs, it happens. CCP (hopefully) won't destroy a person's livelihood because he failed to write perfect code.
This is not a big deal in real life, at least for them. The same can't be said for quite a few members of this board. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
atrum dux
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:56:00 -
[835] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:atrum dux wrote:Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market? Nope. Bug abuse i think is whats being referenced.
It's a bug because ccp didn't intend for people to get lp by blowing up ships and market manipulation isn't allowed if you're not a jita market bot. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:01:00 -
[836] - Quote
God ******* damn this is brilliant, just brilliant. Well played Illuminati Goons. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:07:00 -
[837] - Quote
Wait, when did they unban mention of kugu? That WAY more significant than any goonscam. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:08:00 -
[838] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote: Did they notify CCP? Yes
Did they receive a reply that informed them such actions were illegal in the game? No
I believe that this particular argument was used by Hydra/OB, in the ATX incident. I also seem to recall that it was rejected.
So, I rather doubt that anyone involved in this incident is planning to throw down a repeat of that failed logic. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
996
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:09:00 -
[839] - Quote
So in summary:
CCP failed to implement the simple FW fix (ie NPC rebalance) that a large number of FWers have been asking for for years.
CCP failed to sit down with long-time FWers from all sides to discuss how to proceed as had been requested on multiple occasions.
Instead CCP decided to do things their own way and made a massive ****-up.
Good work CCP. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:11:00 -
[840] - Quote
I see no bugs or exploits here. Just a malleable game mechanic some people cleverly optimized on and gained from. |
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