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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 16:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is a story of what happens when the sandbox gets so complicated, it becomes possible for truly magical opportunities. Greed IS Good
We went straight to plaid
When Eve Online: Inferno was released, most people were underwhelmed. Missile effects were pretty, but functionally useless; ship balancing was mediocre; the inventory revamp was a complete disaster, and most people were simply wondering what the point of the whole thing was. There was even a revamp to Faction Warfare, an oft-maligned, unfun feature of the game. Most people wrote it off as CCP throwing a bone to the few subscribers who stuck around for that sort of thing.
Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal.
Occasionally you will see the odd forum poster that throws out wild conspiracy theories about shadowy figures controlling parts of the game, or in the case of the especially insane, Goons controlling the game. This has never been true...until now.
As weGÇÖve said, in most ways, Inferno was a bust. But a throwaway blog about an obscure part of the upcoming faction warfare revamp was much more interesting than it seemed. A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
The revamp to Faction Warfare in Inferno was the single biggest mistake CCP has ever made. It was bigger than guidance systems, which merely made us a couple of trillion isk. It was certainly bigger than deleting boot.ini, which merely cost CCP some bad press. It was possibly even bigger than Incarna, a potentially game ruining GÇÿexpansionGÇÖ *** cash grab. Simply put, Inferno was released with a way to destroy the value of missions.
InfernoGÇÖs big design mistake was that it was released with a literal currency fountain, very nearly without limit. Unbeknownst to themselves, CCP had accidentally delved into the world of forex, providing a way to exchange one currency (isk) for another (LP) with only a few checks and balances built into the system.
The original theory came about as many of the theories in the Jewbal do: Aryth wondering what the implications of X may be if we did Y. Every theory in the collective is always vetted, and so, Mynnna went to work on a super spreadsheet. This sheet would end up breaking down every niche of FW into its components and checking them for leaks; much like everything in Spreadsheets Online, once created, the sheet had to be tested via running the numbers countless times. Luckily, they added up.
It was time to wreck some pubby wallets :commissar:
When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the playerGÇÖs kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.
We laid in wait. Much of what we believed to be true could not be tested on SISI. Patch day came and we immediately moved into action, enrolling alts into Minmatar FW & Amarr FW and moving freighters full of delicious zydrine/nocxium/megacyte into position. Goons had been invested heavily in minerals pre-patch, and with the massive recession all of EVE went into post CCP changes, Burn Jita, and Hulkageddon, we wanted to give them a way to cash out as well as get rich ourselves. Therefore, the test would start with a simple, yet hilarious murder of several innocent freighters full of extremely valuable highends.
Freighter Death
This also meant that we could cash out our hundreds of billions of ISK worth of minerals at prices far higher than on the market. For example, we cashed out Megacyte at 3300, Zydrine 1400, Nocxium at 900. So some of the very largest stockpiles of pre-drone nerf minerals no longer exists. Tying back into the mineral manipulation we have been engaging in. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 16:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP reacted quickly and patched this out, but the damage was done (not that it really mattered since it would merely have delayed the inevitable); the cabal had our GÇ£seedGÇ¥ LP. From here on out, the next step was to manipulate the outcome of Faction Warfare to dictate the tier level of the Minmatar faction. In order to cash out our illicit LP, Minmatar had to keep tier 4. We bought them into the tier over and over, rebuying each time they lost it and dropped into T3; eventually, 2 mega purchases launched them into T5.
ItGÇÖs worth noting that the entire time, the :shobon: coalition of the terrible roleplayers and various other pubbies comprising the Minmatar faction thought they were doing this on their own. They were oblivious to the fact they would jump 50-70 points in a single hour. To the extent that anyone noticed at all, they attributed it to their own skill, clapping each other on the back in militia chat while the cabal laughed at them for being too stupid to notice what was literally under their noses. This also applied to Amarr. On a lark one of us went one morning and fully upgraded all 13 Amarr systems to level 5. The next day this was repeated along with the 2 systems they won from the day before, allowing the Amarr faction to finally hit T2. Of course they immediately lost it.
With the gloating out of the way, we can move on to describing the actual hole in detail. Note that because this document has been posted, the specific mechanism by which this all works has been patched.
In Inferno, a mechanic was added to award Loyalty Points (LP) based on the value of the ship that was killed. Implants, ship value, cargo, etc. The formula is as follows:
Formula
The GÇ£costGÇ¥ in this equation was CCPGÇÖs own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break -- CCPGÇÖs item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof.
The trick was to control the process. We enlisted dummy characters in opposite factions, loaded up valuable items into a hauler, murdered the haulers with each otherGÇÖs alts, scooped the wrecks, and kept exploding the dropped stacks until none remained. We then converted the LP weGÇÖd been rewarded back into items from the FW store. Needless to say, some of the items in the LP store rewarded enough isk when sold on the market that the haulersGÇÖ mass assisted euthanasia was a profitable enterprise.
The original babby step was to use hydromagnetic datacores. Hydrocores had a CCP Value of 317,000 ISK (pay attention to this number, because itGÇÖs important). When we bought Minmatar into Tier 4, we were rewarded with a 50% reduction in both LP and ISK cost of our purchases from their loyalty store, so one datacore from the LP store at Tier 4 cost 25 LP and 25,000 isk. When the hauler with the datacore inside was duly murdered by our Minmatar loyalist, it rewarded the murderer with 63.5 LP. Blowing up datacores in this manner grossed enough LP to cash out into implants (at 2000 ISK/LP) to cover the isk portion of the cost of the datacore, while still netting excess LP in the process. Essentially, we were able to convert ISK to LP at the rate of 1390 ISK per LP, then immediately sell the produced LP for 1.5 times what we paid. This process of turning LP items into more LP was given the terrible name of GÇ£dubsteppingGÇ¥ by Mynnna.
We initially used this to liquidate all of our highend mineral holdings and start printing isk. We netted tens of millions of LP worth tens of billions of ISK. However, a crucial patch to Eve nerfed us by making cargo that dropped not net any LP, seemingly wrecking the plan by cutting our LP rewards in half and making it unprofitable. Not discouraged, we went back to the drawing board. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 16:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
At this point, we had a problem: we still had not puzzled out CCPGÇÖs pricing update mechanics formula. Fortunately, we caught a break. A person tasked to figure out the CCP formula was able to come up with a fair guess at the CCP Price of a given item GÇô a three month EVE wide moving average.
To confirm this, we ran several tests. We would manipulate the price of an item with a 90 day volume of roughly 5-10 items across Eve, meaning the shittiest, worst 5% bonus to electronic attack ship damage implant we could find.(this is not the actual item, the actual item was even more worthless) Specifically, we would cycle billions of ISK worth of orders to ourselves and create massive volume in said item. CCP duly confirmed their pricing update scriptGÇÖs existence by taking a couple of Fridays to launch the CCP Value of said implants to all time highs. The result was not perfect, but it was more than sufficient to do what was needed. (A special note for those MD scrubs who eventually read this after it is leaked and who donGÇÖt know how CCP pricing works: yes, we saw your dumb threads trying to puzzle it out. CCP uses an EVE wide average over 90 days updated via a manual run. ItGÇÖs definitely not a recurring job. YouGÇÖre welcome!)
From here, it was childGÇÖs play to locate a completely ******, unused item from the FW Loyalty store and jack up the CCP price by repeatedly buying the product at inflated prices in some untraveled galactic shithole.
Once prices updated, we were able to purchase LP at 81 ISK / LP.
The effort required to convert items into LP through explosions also reduced drastically with this much more favorable multiplier, sending the whole process into overdrive. This ludicrous amount of LP not only promised us riches beyond our wildest expectations but allowed us to completely control Faction Warfare by donating our endlessly cheap LP back to the faction itself, invalidating hours of work spent to capture a system by the most despondent of shitlords in a single stroke of the Enter key. While working on acquiring products, we joked that we had to limit ourselves to keeping the total amount on any one character under two billion LP for fears of the number wrapping around to a negative value! This was obviously never tested in earnest (way too much effort,) but to be safe we had to assume that the column for LP in the database is a signed 32-bit integer.
You can see evidence of our dark work throughout the economy in Eve. Open up the market graphs in Jita and take a look at any given implant. Every single one of them will be going off a cliff because we were routinely slamming thousands into buys. At 81 ISK per LP, practically any price is a profit. Of course, we didnGÇÖt stop at implants; if youGÇÖre holding Mechanical Engineering or Minmatar Starship Engineering datacores, you have our condolences as we roll around in literal Scrooge McDuck towers full of your isk. If we were just a little bit prone to hitting and running, everything related to FW LP would be in the gutter. Fortunately, we are patient and beatific overlords. Numerous publord superstars have taken massive losses as we slam buys to nothing, then erect gigantic, unassailable walls of sells at a price that ensures that any stock held by anyone is without value. This last part has mostly been done because we can.
Of course, one minor side effect of this whole thing is that anyone doing missions in June, 2012 was basically doing it at our sufferance, since we could nuke the value of their LP at will. Consider this our demonstration of how benevolent we are towards the rest of Eve Online; we could have annihilated the rewards received by every mission runner in the game. Instead, weGÇÖve chosen to merely leave them with some light bruising and a walk of shame.
The goal was to make a bit of profit. and figure out how to fix it long term. CCP was informed and they moved quickly to address the issue. The party came to an immediate end after the T5 cashout occured. So this is over, and you will no longer be able to do this. If you somehow did find a way, CCP is watching and will probably take action against anyone doing it in the future. But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down.
T5 Cashout
PS: A special note to FWeddit: I hope you enjoyed bashing your heads against the giant LP fortress of VGÇÖd systems purchased with our endless fountain of LP. Fortunately, now that this is nerfed, you can finally start winning the war (donGÇÖt worry, itGÇÖll be easy - Minmatar reallysuck). |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
298
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 16:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
tl;dr
Goon drama Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3593
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:tl;dr Goon drama nope |
J3ssica Biel
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Here to soak up tears |
Dyllyn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
And so it begins, the great shitstorm of our time. |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1338
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
/sets aside this PHP problem.
/popcorn Nothing Found |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
tl;dr
300+ trillion ISK 200+ million LP |
|
Thomas Hurt
Knickers To You
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
It was very cool of the directors to give every member 100bn isk. |
Kyle Myr
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Goonfleet obviously knows nothing about high sec or factional warfare. I demand CCP publicly acknowledge this with the quick hot fix they released today.
Edit: Yes, I intend to spend my 100b on civilian fit Dramiels, as they are the height of conspicuous consumption. |
mainmang
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
This is the best day ever. :) |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
95
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
My only regret is that I have boneitis |
M Expedience
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Up next, we're tanking the tengu pilot market as we unload our ratters, we won't need them now. |
Treyan Argund
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ground floor |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Richest guy in eve, right here. |
Guillane Itaril
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Groundfloor. |
Walter Stine
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
124
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
That feeling when you've been completely outclassed. |
KelShanique TiAndre JaLarion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ground Floor
~PoP lOcK & dRoP iT~ |
|
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
GROUND ******* FLOOR |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
:patriot: |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1444
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nomnom |
LoveFromAbove
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
we're dead at fanfest |
Amarr Haircare Products
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
*salutes CCP* |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2402
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Mac Zehn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
we are the goldman sache of eve |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:tl;dr Goon drama You probably should read it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8119
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
InterestingGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1086
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
first |
|
michael boltonIII
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
215
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[31] - Quote
Haha, these are the moments that really show that really show that some people are playing the game on a different level. I have prepared my tear collection equipment and wait with baited breadth for highsec players to commence filling my vats. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
686
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Greed is good right guys?? . |
KelShanique TiAndre JaLarion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
heh |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
:frogout: |
hedge betts Shiyurida
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mittani alt??????? Cup the balls, and work the shaft |
The Slayer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Oh thats precious, a whole 8 billion? Aren't you sweet. *rolls around in 300trillion isk money bin* |
Ituhata Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
328
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
"Don't be that guy. So close... |
J3ssica Biel
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:05:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Quoting a Jade Constantine post |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
412
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Maybe you can afford some allies now. |
Kyle Myr
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Enjoy FW without us propping you up. We appreciate helping lock all those people into a forever war with us. You did good work. |
|
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
J3ssica Biel wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Quoting a Jade Constantine post Quoting a quote of a Jade Constantine post |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
243
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:06:00 -
[42] - Quote
Posting in a thread where Jade's so dumb he literally made 1/100 of what the jewbal made based solely on his huge effort eve online gaming rewards and not intelligent use of game mechanics. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1093
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
QUICK QUICK GOONS DID SOMETHING MUST MAKE UP A RANDOM NUMBER TO BOAST ABOUT PROFIT THEY GAVE ME
UHM
8 BILLION, NO, TOO LOW
9 BILLION, NO, TOO HIGH
OH DEAR WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOO |
Walter Stine
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
124
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Someone didn't read the OP :frogcawg: |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
95
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:07:00 -
[45] - Quote
As an EVE trillionaire I promise that the war against Star Fraction will never go unpaid. |
The Djentleman Paulson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:07:00 -
[46] - Quote
In for tears.
Some intelligence goes a long way.
I joined EvE because I read about Burn Jita, I popped innocent miners because explosions and goon money, and now this.
I love it.
PS - send me some ******* money you rich bastards i'm space poor |
LoveFromAbove
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
certain members of the GSF right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPX5mRSQ3pw |
FOl2TY8
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
THANKS FOR TELLING THE REST OF US GAW |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:08:00 -
[49] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Oh thats precious, a whole 8 billion? Aren't you sweet. *rolls around in 300trillion isk money bin*
Well hey, I'm just an average eve gamer rather than some kind of superfreak uber numbers guy. 8.7b is quite a lot for me, its about the most I ever made with PVE to be honest.
Will keep me in fleet stabbers for a while
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Harataka
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
My hat is off to you incredible assholes.
|
|
Kallaystra
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:08:00 -
[51] - Quote
Xeross155 wrote:J3ssica Biel wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Quoting a Jade Constantine post Quoting a quote of a Jade Constantine post Quoting, etc. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1093
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:09:00 -
[52] - Quote
pretty much the only day in history i've ever been proud to be a goon luv2gs_isk |
The Slayer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Hey Jade.
http://i.imgur.com/dtMk4.png
<3 |
J3ssica Biel
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:09:00 -
[54] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:The Slayer wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Oh thats precious, a whole 8 billion? Aren't you sweet. *rolls around in 300trillion isk money bin* Well hey, I'm just an average eve gamer] Must suck to be you |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
809
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:09:00 -
[55] - Quote
Wish I had know about this. When I saw to forum post I was like 'I coulda learned! :eng99:' Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Posting in a thread where Jade's so dumb he literally made 1/100 of what the jewbal made based solely on his huge effort eve online gaming rewards and not intelligent use of game mechanics.
what you mean by playing the game for 4 hours.
It really wasn't that onerous and I'm obviously not as greedy as you guys
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Kyle Myr
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
QUICK QUICK GOONS DID SOMETHING MUST MAKE UP A RANDOM NUMBER TO BOAST ABOUT PROFIT THEY GAVE ME UHM 8 BILLION, NO, TOO LOW 9 BILLION, NO, TOO HIGH OH DEAR WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOO
It's unseemly, man, as one of GSF's hardest working members, to have claimed to have earned this. I know that for the jobs you do, you pull in literal pennies comparatively. |
Dyllyn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:10:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Perhaps you missed the bit where they made sum of ISK greater than the value of every titan in the game put together. |
Ituhata Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
328
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
So close... |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
The takeaway from this, of course, is that any minmatar LP-bought item could be utterly crashed at any time by any of the people involved.
You're welcome! |
|
KoRax Cacaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:10:00 -
[61] - Quote
- Get isk.
|
Skye Aurorae
Viziam Amarr Empire
244
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:10:00 -
[62] - Quote
I'm glad to hear that this wasn't some magic exploit, no isk was created from thin air, this money came from other people.
Really this is taking lots of isk being injected into the economy by ratters and mission runners and storing it up safely in the wallets of individuals who clearly understand the Eve economy and have a vested interest in keeping it healthy. Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.
|
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:11:00 -
[63] - Quote
thanks for giving goonies all the iskies on your toonies! |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:11:00 -
[64] - Quote
To bad you can't take money baths in EVE. |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
Everything was already said and done by the time this adjustment was made. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Hey Jade. http://i.imgur.com/dtMk4.png<3
Seriously though I usually don't like you guys (leadership anyway) this kind of thing is clever use of the mechanics and seeing an opportunity and well, congrats tbh. If you can make the game work for you like this then fair enough.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
412
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:12:00 -
[67] - Quote
Skye Aurorae wrote:I'm glad to hear that this wasn't some magic exploit, no isk was created from thin air, this money came from other people.
Really this is taking lots of isk being injected into the economy by ratters and mission runners and storing it up safely in the wallets of individuals who clearly understand the Eve economy and have a vested interest in keeping it healthy.
We actually did Eve a favor and sunk quite a lot of isk from the economy! After all, most LP store items cost 1000 isk/LP to buy, and lets not forget all the broker fees involved! |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:12:00 -
[68] - Quote
Xeross155 wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
Everything was already said and done by the time this adjustment was made.
And was only discovered because the people doing it alerted CCP of its existence and asked it to be fixed. |
SamGromoff
Padded Helmets
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:13:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ugh not nearly enough tears where are the deranged ban all goons posts dammit |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3593
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:13:00 -
[70] - Quote
Skye Aurorae wrote:I'm glad to hear that this wasn't some magic exploit, no isk was created from thin air, this money came from other people.
Really this is taking lots of isk being injected into the economy by ratters and mission runners and storing it up safely in the wallets of individuals who clearly understand the Eve economy and have a vested interest in keeping it healthy. actually tremendous amounts of isk were also flushed down the toilet buying stuff in the lp store as well |
|
Ituhata Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
328
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
Xeross155 wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
Everything was already said and done by the time this adjustment was made.
Understood.
Quote:and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means
is still relevant. So close... |
Miss Yanumano
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:13:00 -
[72] - Quote
Oh boy, I sure am going to stack up on Republic Fleet warp disruptors now, thank you Goons! Brilliant display! |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:13:00 -
[73] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:Xeross155 wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
Everything was already said and done by the time this adjustment was made. And was only discovered because the people doing it alerted CCP of its existence and asked it to be fixed. Well they did CCP a favour and got a royal reward in return |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:14:00 -
[74] - Quote
SamGromoff wrote:Ugh not nearly enough tears where are the deranged ban all goons posts dammit
They ran out to buy tinfoil first. There's a 2 for 1 at walmart. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:14:00 -
[75] - Quote
Dyllyn wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Perhaps you missed the bit where they made sum of ISK greater than the value of every titan in the game put together.
I really didn't and I don't mind much either :) Like I said, it was pretty clever.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1093
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
QUICK QUICK GOONS DID SOMETHING MUST MAKE UP A RANDOM NUMBER TO BOAST ABOUT PROFIT THEY GAVE ME UHM 8 BILLION, NO, TOO LOW 9 BILLION, NO, TOO HIGH OH DEAR WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOO It's unseemly, man, as one of GSF's hardest working members, to have claimed to have earned this. I know that for the jobs you do, you pull in literal pennies comparatively.
i don't know why i bother anymore |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1093
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:14:00 -
[77] - Quote
if you give me 5 mins i'll change blawrf's face to sad |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:14:00 -
[78] - Quote
This thread....
Oh dear |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:SamGromoff wrote:Ugh not nearly enough tears where are the deranged ban all goons posts dammit They ran out to buy tinfoil first. There's a 2 for 1 at walmart. Don't we hold a monopoly on that nowadays? |
killorbekilled TBE
Dare Bears
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:15:00 -
[80] - Quote
i visited the forums today and all i got was this lousy wall of text huh? |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1485
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:16:00 -
[81] - Quote
Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:16:00 -
[82] - Quote
Xeross155 wrote:La Nariz wrote:SamGromoff wrote:Ugh not nearly enough tears where are the deranged ban all goons posts dammit They ran out to buy tinfoil first. There's a 2 for 1 at walmart. Don't we hold a monopoly on that nowadays?
I know I invested in it.
They should be seeing an increase in share price soon.
http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/NVL:US |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
killorbekilled TBE wrote:i visited the forums today and all i got was this lousy wall of text
And that's why you don't have 1T isk. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1485
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:17:00 -
[84] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:Xeross155 wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
Everything was already said and done by the time this adjustment was made. And was only discovered because the people doing it alerted CCP of its existence and asked it to be fixed.
The fix had already been checked in prior to us being aware of the details which is why the investigation isn't complete but the manipulated values have been set back to a more reasonable number. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Dyllyn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:18:00 -
[85] - Quote
Welp. Party's over. |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:19:00 -
[86] - Quote
Dyllyn wrote:Welp. Party's over. Party's just getting started. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1094
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:19:00 -
[87] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
damn it sreegs |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:19:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:20:00 -
[89] - Quote
This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
413
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:21:00 -
[90] - Quote
We'd argue that there was no exploit (unlike things in the past like the Ferrogel dupe), merely an intended mechanic stretched to a legitimate extreme, but we're clearly biased. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3599
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:21:00 -
[91] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago |
J3ssica Biel
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:22:00 -
[92] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? No |
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
389
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:22:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
It's pretty apt to make a banking analogy since CCP is probably as well managed as our US banks are. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:22:00 -
[94] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Enjoy FW without us propping you up. We appreciate helping lock all those people into a forever war with us. You did good work.
awww but they are all going to be gone 2 weeks after 1.1 hits and the defensive allies are nerfed. The forever war is going to be a pale shadow of a dead thing.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:23:00 -
[95] - Quote
Aryndel Vyst wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. It's pretty apt to make a banking analogy since CCP is probably as well managed as our US banks are. blammo |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1094
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:23:00 -
[96] - Quote
Aryndel Vyst wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. It's pretty apt to make a banking analogy since CCP is probably as well managed as our US banks are.
iceburn |
Harataka
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:23:00 -
[97] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
Sure you did.
|
Ituhata Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
328
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:23:00 -
[98] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
I'd be a great villain, I'd shoot the hero in the head 3 times once I captured him instead of prattling on about my superiority. Then I'll cut of his head and mount it on a spike outside my evil lair as a warning to other superheroes. So close... |
Treyan Argund
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:23:00 -
[99] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
Quoting for posterity, Jade Constantine literally owns a time machine
|
Walter Stine
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
126
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:23:00 -
[100] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago
I believe he was referring to a psychic reading.
|
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1487
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:23:00 -
[101] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Lord Zim
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:24:00 -
[102] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh?
I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:25:00 -
[103] - Quote
Ituhata Saken wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
I'd be a great villain, I'd shoot the hero in the head 3 times once I captured him instead of prattling on about my superiority. Then I'll cut of his head and mount it on a spike outside my evil lair as a warning to other superheroes.
We killed the villains(pubbies) but occasionally you get struck by lightning when doing the **** yeah dance while holding a golf club. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:25:00 -
[104] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago
okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
172
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:25:00 -
[105] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Good to hear.
I pat the goons on the back for figuring out how to break the game, but outside of bragging rights on 'look what I did' this seems like it was an absolutely stupid use of resources.
If anyone thought CCP would turn a blind eye and treat billions, hundreds of billions or more isk injection as a 'oops water over the dam, better luck next time' situation they are truly naive.
-Burn billions or more of assets instead of opening a bug report to point out a broken game mechanic? CHECK
-laugh at the terribad minmatar for flying around looking for pew instead of doing really cool smart stuff like violating the EULA drawing CCP's attention and ire? CHECK
-backpedal and and say 'we didn't want that isk anyways' and tell everyone how it's a jersey *ahem* goon thing and no one will understand? PENDING
how the mighty have fallen. Goons used to be so edgy and relevant, now the best they can do is gloat about post patch bugs they capitalized on for a couple weeks.
pretty fail guys think of what isk you could have made on the long term with the assets you threw at this (and CCP would have actually let you keep it)
100billion in my wallet cheating that i'll eventually lose? Or 1billion in my wallet I got legit that i can now use to buy ships and pew?
I believe the old saying is "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush"
oh well, one of the best lessons in life is figuring out the difference between when you can do a thing and when you should do a thing |
The Slayer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:25:00 -
[106] - Quote
This just in manipulating market prices is now an exploit. You ebil goonies. |
Kyle Myr
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
289
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:25:00 -
[107] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
Jade, lying is against the TOS. You're not good enough to have spies in the group that did this. |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
152
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:25:00 -
[108] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: The forever war is going to be a pale shadow of a dead thing.
No, no...that's just your alliance. |
Lord Zim
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:26:00 -
[109] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy. Liar, liar, pants (or in your case, skirt) on fire. |
J3ssica Biel
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:27:00 -
[110] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy. Its been an hour |
|
Harataka
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:27:00 -
[111] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy.
Try again? This is getting pretty funny. |
Joan en Bauldry
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:27:00 -
[112] - Quote
So some smart people with resources gamed the system and got more resources.
Eh, nothing wrong with using your brains...and a spreadsheet. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:28:00 -
[113] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago.
why are you goons incapable of understand that a couple = two whereas few and several tends to mean 3+
The original leak of your document was in the early hours of wed morning FYI
And for reference ... I made my isk by cashing out my loyalty points at the minmatar store when it hit tier 5 on saturday quite legally turning my points into datacores and fleet stabbers. At that point I had no idea whatsoever about your shennagins - it was just happy coincidence.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Mikelii
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:28:00 -
[114] - Quote
Darius Johnson for CEO.
Never not ******* goons. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1096
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:29:00 -
[115] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy. Liar, liar, pants (or in your case, skirt) on fire.
depends on what he's roleplaying as |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:29:00 -
[116] - Quote
so Jade, please tell us more about how intimately you are involved with secretive goon operations
because we'd just love to hear it :allears: |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2566
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:29:00 -
[117] - Quote
I am Jack's utter lack of surprise. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:29:00 -
[118] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
Tech moons are a design flaw. Everyone has known it for years. When you're ready to classify it as an exploit, let us know, k? |
ElQuirko
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
750
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:29:00 -
[119] - Quote
Got bored of e-peen stroking after reading "super spreadsheet". Tl;dr. CISPA - Readin' your secret corptheft mails since 2012 |
Ituhata Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
328
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:29:00 -
[120] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
I'd be a great villain, I'd shoot the hero in the head 3 times once I captured him instead of prattling on about my superiority. Then I'll cut of his head and mount it on a spike outside my evil lair as a warning to other superheroes. We killed the villains(pubbies) but occasionally you get struck by lightning when doing the **** yeah dance while holding a golf club.
See if you mounted the pubbies heads to the ends of the club that would have added at least some electrical resistance, put on your dancing platform sneakers and you're pretty well insulated. So close... |
|
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:29:00 -
[121] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Was what they did actually illegal? It looks legit to me. Kudos to them.
Also, I fail to see how you could revert/fix what they did without straight up setting wallets negative (seems rather harsh) or only eliminating stock that they current hold... I assume the items they already sold wouldn't be touched.
EDIT: saw your reply to Jade, nevermind. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[122] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? Jade, lying is against the TOS. You're not good enough to have spies in the group that did this.
Keep telling yourself that lol ...
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Lord Zim
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[123] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:The original leak of your document was in the early hours of wed morning FYI Nope. |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
152
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[124] - Quote
No isk was created by this method. Isk was actually SUNK by this method into FW stores and broker's fees.
All the isk pulled in was from player's hands. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4104
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[125] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote:Goonfleet obviously knows nothing about high sec or factional warfare. I demand CCP publicly acknowledge this with the quick hot fix they released today.
Edit: Yes, I intend to spend my 100b on civilian fit Dramiels, as they are the height of conspicuous consumption.
Speaking as someone who did Angel missions in June, I approve of this Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Treyan Argund
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[126] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy.
Document was posted on GF.com literally an hour ago. Please damage control some more, it's cute. |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[127] - Quote
This is just hilarious keep it up goons. Stay Classy ( Go die ). |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[128] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago. why are you goons incapable of understand that a couple = two whereas few and several tends to mean 3+
There really is an xkcd for everything http://xkcd.com/1070/ |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1096
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[129] - Quote
(6:30:42 PM) aryth: i am jade |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:30:00 -
[130] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
Fair enough, thanks for the response.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2566
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:31:00 -
[131] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
Tech moons are a design flaw. Everyone has known it for years. When you're ready to classify it as an exploit, let us know, k?
They should correct the flaw and than confiscate all the ill-gotten gains. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
LoveFromAbove
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:31:00 -
[132] - Quote
on the plus side EVE's going to make all the gaming news sites again |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
810
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:31:00 -
[133] - Quote
Ituhata Saken wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
I'd be a great villain, I'd shoot the hero in the head 3 times once I captured him instead of prattling on about my superiority. Then I'll cut of his head and mount it on a spike outside my evil lair as a warning to other superheroes. That would make you a terrible villain. Don't you know the rules? You HAVE to gloat. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:32:00 -
[134] - Quote
Treyan Argund wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy. Document was posted on GF.com literally an hour ago. Please damage control some more, it's cute.
That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
ElQuirko
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
750
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:32:00 -
[135] - Quote
If it wasn't against the rules now, this would've triggered millions of goon "CCP ANTI-GOON CONSPIRACY" threads. CISPA - Readin' your secret corptheft mails since 2012 |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:33:00 -
[136] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
Tech moons are a design flaw. Everyone has known it for years. When you're ready to classify it as an exploit, let us know, k? They should correct the flaw and than confiscate all the ill-gotten gains.
See I'd actually vote for you again if you ran for the next CSM with that campaign pledge!
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:33:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
The CCP position is pretty clear. They have to protect the sandbox to some degree. However, we were careful to limit the scope of this. Profit yes, gamebreaking no. In theory we could have generated 10's of billions of LP. That would have had long term consequences CCP could not have ignored. I feel good that when they dive into the details, they will see it's not horrible enough to mess with, and it the market will correct within 30 days or so.
|
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:33:00 -
[138] - Quote
LoveFromAbove wrote:on the plus side EVE's going to make all the gaming news sites again
There's always a tarnished silver lining in everything. |
fab24
Tax Fraud Corporation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:33:00 -
[139] - Quote
So what's all this crap even for? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4104
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:33:00 -
[140] - Quote
Mikelii wrote:Darius Johnson for CEO.
Never not ******* goons.
I genuinely ell oh elled at this because come on, the whole thing is pretty ******* funny Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
|
Makkal Hanaya
Drakenburg
194
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:34:00 -
[141] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
A bit less smug?
They made trillions of ISK by manipulating the system and the game developers had to wade into the sandbox just to fix the situation. Wouldn't that make them *more* smug? although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:34:00 -
[142] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The original leak of your document was in the early hours of wed morning FYI Nope.
I'm afraid to say you know nothing.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:34:00 -
[143] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Treyan Argund wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy. Document was posted on GF.com literally an hour ago. Please damage control some more, it's cute. That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny.
Ahahahahahahahah
hahahahahahah a ha h ah ah ha ha aahh.
Oh. Man. |
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:34:00 -
[144] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I am Jack's utter lack of surprise.
Considering how adamant your members are about how 'they've done everything' in terms of 'winning faction warfare' I can't say I believe you XD
Fix faction warfare plz. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123906
It's not like you're going to win when you don't have goons to prop you at t5 in every system indefinitely anymore :(
- Le Womyn Power |
JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
189
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[145] - Quote
Treyan Argund wrote:Quoting for posterity, Jade Constantine literally owns a time machine
That wouldn't even... :psyduck:
Where can I sign up for the afterparty? The 4x4 seems awfully crowded.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:They should correct the flaw and than confiscate all the ill-gotten gains.
Seconded. |
Harataka
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[146] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny.
Dammit Jade you almost owed me a Tengu for making me laugh so hard at your bullshit that I forgot to turn on my tank. :( |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1096
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[147] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The original leak of your document was in the early hours of wed morning FYI Nope. I'm afraid to say you know nothing.
roleplaying ygritte now
what is it with you and roleplaying promiscious women?? |
Joe D'Trader
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
152
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[148] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:No isk was created by this method. Isk was actually SUNK by this method into FW stores and broker's fees.
All the isk pulled in was from player's hands.
Insurance creates some isk, but in the grand scheme of things probably not much.
And damn this thread is growing fast. |
Ituhata Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
329
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[149] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
I'd be a great villain, I'd shoot the hero in the head 3 times once I captured him instead of prattling on about my superiority. Then I'll cut of his head and mount it on a spike outside my evil lair as a warning to other superheroes. That would make you a terrible villain. Don't you know the rules? You HAVE to gloat.
I'll gloat later when I'm casually holding the severed head of the hero in front of a monitor broadcasting to the UN while I demand one-hundred million dollars! So close... |
J3ssica Biel
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[150] - Quote
fab24 wrote:So what's all this crap even for? If you stopped playing the test server 23/7, logged on TQ you might know, ****** |
|
Treyan Argund
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[151] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:That means I was the last to know ... thats actually quite funny.
ftfy |
Skye Aurorae
Viziam Amarr Empire
244
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[152] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: If anyone thought CCP would turn a blind eye and treat billions, hundreds of billions or more isk injection as a 'oops water over the dam, better luck next time' situation they are truly naive.
Your argument fails right here, this whole scheme removed ISK from the economy.
(I suppose you think getting you ship blown up is an ISK sink)
Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.
|
Words Words Words
Dilz Holdings
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:35:00 -
[153] - Quote
there is a mole.. right at the top of the circus
ccp sreegs has been tasked with revealing his identity... and eliminating him |
Igner Greyhound
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:36:00 -
[154] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
How about something like "This was technically legit, but the system was biased in a way we didn't intend, so we at CCP have to reverse some of the damage, because we can."
Then you can follow it up with "Tech is hilariously broken too, so we're going to fix that next."
|
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:37:00 -
[155] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: If anyone thought CCP would turn a blind eye and treat billions, hundreds of billions or more isk injection as a 'oops water over the dam, better luck next time' situation they are truly naive.
As far as I know, no isk was created out of this. They destroyed minerals to get LPs, used LP and isk to get assets, and are now owning tremendous stockpiles of various valuable items. These items will have to be sold on the market, or used internally. |
Father Snuggles
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:37:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
"So we had this sandbox and, due to lack of forethought, filled it with diarrhea. Now, while the vast majority of people were paddling around in it, writhing in disgust, there was this group of folks that accurately assessed the situation and built a float out of their mouthbreathing comrades that were oblivious to their fecal predicament.
Then, not covered in filth like everyone else, they laughed at us.
Joke's on them, though. We punished them by saying they weren't in a sandbox to begin with." |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:38:00 -
[157] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations. The CCP position is pretty clear. They have to protect the sandbox to some degree. However, we were careful to limit the scope of this. Profit yes, gamebreaking no. In theory we could have generated 10's of billions of LP. That would have had long term consequences CCP could not have ignored. I feel good that when they dive into the details, they will see it's not horrible enough to mess with, and it the market will correct within 30 days or so.
So is the idea to exploit it, but only a little so as not to **** off CCP? Meh |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:38:00 -
[158] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The original leak of your document was in the early hours of wed morning FYI Nope. I'm afraid to say you know nothing. roleplaying ygritte now what is it with you and roleplaying promiscious women??
did someone call? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1386
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:38:00 -
[159] - Quote
BRAVO GOONS!
Keep the good work, it's incredible how some of your bright minds can find these things. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Treyan Argund
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:38:00 -
[160] - Quote
:siren:GS_ISK LEAK:siren:
(13:38:10) la_nariz: The jewbal bankrolling a burn jita month? (13:38:19) treyan_argund: :aaaaa: (13:38:22) treyan_argund: YES PLEASE (13:38:26) endercapitalg: :stare: |
|
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:39:00 -
[161] - Quote
So if you Goons came out BEFORE CCP find out about your cheatings, i would be impressed. Now. Not so much, another round of cheaters will bite the dust. |
Lord Zim
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:40:00 -
[162] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1096
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:40:00 -
[163] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:The original leak of your document was in the early hours of wed morning FYI Nope. I'm afraid to say you know nothing. roleplaying ygritte now what is it with you and roleplaying promiscious women?? did someone call?
we found jade's spy guys
give me digi's job |
Treyan Argund
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:40:00 -
[164] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:So if you Goons came out BEFORE CCP find out about your cheatings, i would be impressed. Now. Not so much, another round of cheaters will bite the dust.
They never would have known had we not told them. HTH.
Also reposting
:siren:GS_ISK LEAK:siren:
(13:38:10) la_nariz: The jewbal bankrolling a burn jita month? (13:38:19) treyan_argund: :aaaaa: (13:38:22) treyan_argund: YES PLEASE (13:38:26) endercapitalg: :stare: |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
172
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:41:00 -
[165] - Quote
Skye Aurorae wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: If anyone thought CCP would turn a blind eye and treat billions, hundreds of billions or more isk injection as a 'oops water over the dam, better luck next time' situation they are truly naive.
Your argument fails right here, this whole scheme removed ISK from the economy. (I suppose you think getting you ship blown up is an ISK sink)
injection was the wrong term to use. Hardly approaches impacting the rest of my argument. In fact, it further supports it.
Assets were burned to do this. Assets that could have been used much more productively.
Not that 'for the lulz' isn't a pretty good use, but I like money.
edit (I suppose you think herfblurf) |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:41:00 -
[166] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it.
https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801
any comments?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
811
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:41:00 -
[167] - Quote
Igner Greyhound wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
How about something like "This was technically legit, but the system was biased in a way we didn't intend, so we at CCP have to break the sandbox, because we can." Then you can follow it up with "Tech is hilariously broken too, so we're going to fix that just like the people profiting most have asked." ftfy Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Frocke
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:41:00 -
[168] - Quote
Aww you have more numbers than me! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8119
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[169] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Got bored of e-peen stroking after reading "super spreadsheet". Tl;dr. Welcome to EVE. Spreadsheet e-peen = best e-peen. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[170] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:we found jade's spy guys
give me digi's job
No no, you keep doing your job. You're quite good at it. On the whole, you probably generate just as many tears as the jewbal, they're just more spread out. |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1326
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[171] - Quote
the Y-2ANO of Market PVP |
Captain Pitts
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[172] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG13u9KKtzE&t=27m9s
|
Shelley09
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[173] - Quote
lol you tards, that incredibly lengthy explanation simply describes what fw been doing with fw started, lol, the only difference is less/more lp cost and more lp available, , and yes we did know you guys were upgrading system from get go, general malita guys don't exactly involve them selves with that type of stuff and thus oblivious, and please keep doing it, we're getting rich to :D, not our problem is ammar are seriously out gunned and continue to be blobbed.
-shelley09 , the guy who states the obvious |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
201
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[174] - Quote
You, you... you,
you,
Goons |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1492
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[175] - Quote
Igner Greyhound wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
How about something like "This was technically legit, but the system was biased in a way we didn't intend, so we at CCP have to reverse some of the damage, because we can." Then you can follow it up with "Tech is hilariously broken too, so we're going to fix that next."
If we find the scope of the situation requires remediation then yes that would be something like the statement I would make. :) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1096
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[176] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:we found jade's spy guys
give me digi's job No no, you keep doing your job. You're quite good at it. On the whole, you probably generate just as many tears as the jewbal, they're just more spread out.
http://i.imgur.com/RGRWh.png |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1355
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:43:00 -
[177] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:No isk was created by this method. Isk was actually SUNK by this method into FW stores and broker's fees.
All the isk pulled in was from player's hands. I'd half love to see an attempted reversion on this
I'm not even sure there's a way, all the transactions were legit at the time of doing them. Are CCP really planning on giving people ISK back less the value of the manipulated items? What if they got those blown up, and got LP from it?
It's far too entangled, and just negging 300tril from wallets would be insanity as well. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
164
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:44:00 -
[178] - Quote
To clear up a few misconceptions.
The LP isn't free. just heavily discounted. You still remove ISK from EVE doing this. Quite a LOT of ISK.
Most of the items have very large ISK costs in addition to LP, hundreds of billions of real ISK was removed from the system doing this. Total windfall is in the neighborhood of 5T. Five individuals. The majority of that being me. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:45:00 -
[179] - Quote
They should have sent a poet. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3600
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:45:00 -
[180] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it. https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801any comments? ...it was aryth
aryth tweeted the secret documents
oh god this is even funnier than the lp |
|
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1355
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:46:00 -
[181] - Quote
You know, if Jade does have sources in GSF leadership it would explain why he stated he knew for a fact GSF leadership were afraid of a foreverwar :V - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Roxwar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
77
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:46:00 -
[182] - Quote
After reading the actual post and seeing the screenies ect of the final fat wallet amounts, i decided to see how much 'real money' the total made comes out to roughly.
Based on it costing -ú22 per 1b if bought via 60day GTC, Those magnificent goons are sitting on approx -ú7,744,000 worth of isk if bought with GTC's. Thats right, thats 7.75 MILLION POUNDS worth of internet spaceship money. or approx 11.6 million dollars .
However you look at this, be that for or against, you have to admit, only in EVE can something like this happen, and thats why i love this game.
I tip my hat to all you goon geeks that came up with this scheme, bravo fine sirs, BRAVO. http://roxwar.blogspot.com/ |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
456
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:46:00 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
LOL
Tal
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2568
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:47:00 -
[184] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago.
Lots of us made billions, regardless of whether we knew about the manipulation or not.
Every Minmatar that had saved up their millions of LP cashed out gloriously, albeit not on the scale of the manipulators. 8.7 billion is completely feasible given the opportunity that opened up.
BTW, thanks for releasing the info and removing the artificial prop-up. You wouldn't believe how I excited I am that the Amarr have less to complain about now, this severely cuts into the "Boo-hoo minnies are steamrolling us the system is so unfair". I'd much rather have the warzone control based on the fighting merit of the two militias.
If Tier 5 is indeed much more difficult to obtain, even with all the systems held by the Minmatar militia, we'll know here pretty soon, and it will mean the system is much less conducive to "snowballing" as the "losing" factions have complained about. If we are able to hit Tier 5 again, than it nukes the 3p33n claim that we only could ever achieve Tier 5 with Goon support. Either way its a win-win.
You just made my life a lot easier - maybe not that of my militia, of course, but for me personally who's job it is to monitor the state of the warzone and assess the functionality and balance of the mechanics. You've cut through the noise quite a bit by allowing the war to just play itself out, without the skewed manipulation effort.
This also means the Amarr are more likely to invest in actually winning their own war, instead of simply throwing alts into the Minnie militia to sip at our juice-fountain, if the days of the Tier 5 spike have come to a close for a while. Nicely done. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Jolan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:47:00 -
[185] - Quote
C-C-P
SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG'D
You boyz just got karttoon'd |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3601
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:48:00 -
[186] - Quote
let me reiterate that aryth tweeted the secret documents to everybody never has a man so smug been brought so low |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:48:00 -
[187] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it. https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801any comments? ...it was aryth aryth tweeted the secret documents oh god this is even funnier than the lp
I am so bad at twitter.
And the really crappy part. She told me to go fish |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
929
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:49:00 -
[188] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
You uh, missed the part where we told CCP about all this ourselves, right? |
Crest Cutty
The Country Club Crest
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:49:00 -
[189] - Quote
I hope who ever QC'd the release and the mechanics that were subsequently manipulated loses their job. This is a screw-up on a scale that is beyond belief.
I can't just go up to my client and say "dang, I'm sorry I didn't properly word that provision to protect your overseas intellectual property and now you're out a couple million. Sorry, my bad." No, I'd get sued and lose my job.
And you can't just take back the isk or make it disappear. It is complete bs and goes against every that made eve, well EVE. You screwed the pooch royally on this one, and as much as I hate goonies they just outplayed you AT YOUR OWN GAME!!!
Rage rage rage, rage rage, rage rage rage! Rage rage, tears, rage? RAGE!!!!!!
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2403
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:49:00 -
[190] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:You know, if Jade does have sources in GSF leadership it would explain why he stated he knew for a fact GSF leadership were afraid of a foreverwar :V
If by "sources" you mean "follows twiiter leaks" then lol :)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
418
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[191] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:You know, if Jade does have sources in GSF leadership it would explain why he stated he knew for a fact GSF leadership were afraid of a foreverwar :V No source in GSF leadership. Aryth merely does not know how to use Twitter. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[192] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago. Lots of us made billions, regardless of whether we knew about the manipulation or not. Every Minmatar that had saved up their millions of LP cashed out gloriously, albeit not on the scale of the manipulators. 8.7 billion is completely feasible given the opportunity that opened up. BTW, thanks for releasing the info and removing the artificial prop-up. You wouldn't believe how I excited I am that the Amarr have less to complain about now, this severely cuts into the "Boo-hoo minnies are steamrolling us the system is so unfair". I'd much rather have the warzone control based on the fighting merit of the two militias. If Tier 5 is indeed much more difficult to obtain, even with all the systems held by the Minmatar militia, we'll know here pretty soon, and it will mean the system is much less conducive to "snowballing" as the "losing" factions have complained about. If we are able to hit Tier 5 again, than it nukes the 3p33n claim that we only could ever achieve Tier 5 with Goon support. Either way its a win-win. You just made my life a lot easier - maybe not that of my militia, of course, but for me personally who's job it is to monitor the state of the warzone and assess the functionality and balance of the mechanics. You've cut through the noise quite a bit by allowing the war to just play itself out, without the skewed manipulation effort. This also means the Amarr are more likely to invest in actually winning their own war, instead of simply throwing alts into the Minnie militia to sip at our juice-fountain, if the days of the Tier 5 spike have come to a close for a while. Nicely done.
I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you. |
Uyeiu
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[193] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. No one believes you. You guys weren't smart enough to find the hole before release. You weren't smart enough to find the abuse without a tip off. You weren't smart enough to listen to all the warnings you were given in advance. You aren't smart enough to pull it all back (you can be sure they thought about how to hide it all). Chalk up another win for Goons Online. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
177
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[194] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:You know, if Jade does have sources in GSF leadership it would explain why he stated he knew for a fact GSF leadership were afraid of a foreverwar :V Like i've been telling people for the longest time, the whole Jadespiracy thing was actually a plan launched by Jade in conjunction with GSF upper leadership to get war dec changes to happen. They originally intended for the changes to unfold naturally via WRC, but after he left the game they turned to Jade to artificially generate the controversy, but Jade took things too far and GSF decided they needed to distance themselves from Jade.
tl;dr Jade is on the GSF payroll as one of their agents.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[195] - Quote
I found a poet.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. |
idlemachinery
The Western District Way I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[196] - Quote
darius why are you so completely fletched about getting rick rolled
less tears please |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[197] - Quote
Crest Cutty wrote:I hope who ever QC'd the release and the mechanics that were subsequently manipulated loses their job. This is a screw-up on a scale that is beyond belief.
I can't just go up to my client and say "dang, I'm sorry I didn't properly word that provision to protect your overseas intellectual property and now you're out a couple million. Sorry, my bad." No, I'd get sued and lose my job.
And you can't just take back the isk or make it disappear. It is complete bs and goes against every that made eve, well EVE. You screwed the pooch royally on this one, and as much as I hate goonies they just outplayed you AT YOUR OWN GAME!!!
Rage rage rage, rage rage, rage rage rage! Rage rage, tears, rage? RAGE!!!!!!
Except this is a game, and a non-existent currency. So your comparison is incorrect. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:51:00 -
[198] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Khanh'rhh wrote:You know, if Jade does have sources in GSF leadership it would explain why he stated he knew for a fact GSF leadership were afraid of a foreverwar :V If by "sources" you mean "follows twiiter leaks" then lol :)
I signed up to twitter only to tweet diagoras. I am ignorant at twitter. My shamecube is now a hypershamecube. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
418
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:52:00 -
[199] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago. Lots of us made billions, regardless of whether we knew about the manipulation or not. Every Minmatar that had saved up their millions of LP cashed out gloriously, albeit not on the scale of the manipulators. 8.7 billion is completely feasible given the opportunity that opened up. BTW, thanks for releasing the info and removing the artificial prop-up. You wouldn't believe how I excited I am that the Amarr have less to complain about now, this severely cuts into the "Boo-hoo minnies are steamrolling us the system is so unfair". I'd much rather have the warzone control based on the fighting merit of the two militias. If Tier 5 is indeed much more difficult to obtain, even with all the systems held by the Minmatar militia, we'll know here pretty soon, and it will mean the system is much less conducive to "snowballing" as the "losing" factions have complained about. If we are able to hit Tier 5 again, than it nukes the 3p33n claim that we only could ever achieve Tier 5 with Goon support. Either way its a win-win. You just made my life a lot easier - maybe not that of my militia, of course, but for me personally who's job it is to monitor the state of the warzone and assess the functionality and balance of the mechanics. You've cut through the noise quite a bit by allowing the war to just play itself out, without the skewed manipulation effort. This also means the Amarr are more likely to invest in actually winning their own war, instead of simply throwing alts into the Minnie militia to sip at our juice-fountain, if the days of the Tier 5 spike have come to a close for a while. Nicely done.
We didn't want Tier 5 for this very reason - we know that lots of people who would jump in on it. But we got a little overzealous donating LP and got you guys within 20 points or less, and I guess ya'll did the rest.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3601
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:52:00 -
[200] - Quote
seriously i was leakhunting with the timeline jade gave us and then someone linked the twitter and I've been nearly crying with laughter at work for like fifteen minutes |
|
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:53:00 -
[201] - Quote
Quote: I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you
Confirming this. If nothing else change, minmatar will hold 56 systems after tomorrow's DT, which, once upgraded, will get them just enough to get in T5, maybe one last time before amarr starts ******* them up. |
David Cedarbridge
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
249
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:54:00 -
[202] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: -laugh at the terribad minmatar for flying around looking for pew instead of doing really cool smart stuff like violating the EULA drawing CCP's attention and ire? CHECK
[Citation needed]
Also, I'm betting you didn't actually read the whole thing nor understand how it works (worked). Good work with that. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2404
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:55:00 -
[203] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it. https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801any comments? ...it was aryth aryth tweeted the secret documents oh god this is even funnier than the lp I am so bad at twitter. And the really crappy part. She told me to go fish
Well I guess the good thing for you guys is it did at least look like you were trying to report the issue before it went nuts.
http://www.mordante.aquiss.com/BreakFW.jpg
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
390
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:55:00 -
[204] - Quote
Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
929
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:56:00 -
[205] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:So if you Goons came out BEFORE CCP find out about your cheatings, i would be impressed. Now. Not so much, another round of cheaters will bite the dust.
So this is the new forum meme? First It was GoonCP, now it's "Goons admitted everything after being caught?"
Did you not read the part where we told CCP about the imbalance in the change they made to the market? |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:57:00 -
[206] - Quote
Crest Cutty wrote:[...] and as much as I hate goonies they just outplayed you AT YOUR OWN GAME!!!
If you've been playing EVE for long, you'd realize that this is actually a fairly frequent occurrence.
|
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:57:00 -
[207] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
Gotcha moniez. |
abitrubbish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:57:00 -
[208] - Quote
Crest Cutty wrote:...I can't just go up to my client and say "dang, I'm sorry I didn't properly word that provision to protect your overseas intellectual property and now you're out a couple million. Sorry, my bad." No, I'd get sued and lose my job...
You realise that this is only a game?
+rep for having such a high flying job |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
118
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:57:00 -
[209] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
CCP messed up new FW mechanics, Goons exploited for trillions if not quadrillions of profit ISK. And billions of LP |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
811
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:57:00 -
[210] - Quote
Crest Cutty wrote:I hope who ever QC'd the release and the mechanics that were subsequently manipulated loses their job. This is a screw-up on a scale that is beyond belief.
I can't just go up to my client and say "dang, I'm sorry I didn't properly word that provision to protect your overseas intellectual property and now you're out a couple million. Sorry, my bad." No, I'd get sued and lose my job.
And you can't just take back the isk or make it disappear. It is complete bs and goes against every that made eve, well EVE. You screwed the pooch royally on this one, and as much as I hate goonies they just outplayed you AT YOUR OWN GAME!!!
Rage rage rage, rage rage, rage rage rage! Rage rage, tears, rage? RAGE!!!!!!
Problem is, its wasn't really bad unless you calculated in goons pouring their resources into it.
Planning around the massive resources they can direct would kinda destroy anyone elses ability to do smaller scale market manipulation(and market manipulation has ALWAYS been kosher in this game) Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
|
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
276
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:57:00 -
[211] - Quote
Many people didn't understood yet how good Goons can be to make things change, and change for the better for everyone.
I hate you and I love you bunch of space ships lovers. brb |
Nostradamouse Riraille
Blackreach. SRS.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:57:00 -
[212] - Quote
Cool story bros... |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2404
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:57:00 -
[213] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:seriously i was leakhunting with the timeline jade gave us and then someone linked the twitter and I've been nearly crying with laughter at work for like fifteen minutes
Well I did say I just "knew about it" I wasn't making a great claim for having elite spais in your dirty tricks division!
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Ituhata Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
329
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:58:00 -
[214] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
Boiler Room So close... |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:58:00 -
[215] - Quote
I had actually reported the issue to CCP in it's first form 2 weeks ago. They have known to some degree what we have been doing for quite some time. I assume the first hotfix to cargo drops were a part of that. |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1355
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:58:00 -
[216] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Khanh'rhh wrote:You know, if Jade does have sources in GSF leadership it would explain why he stated he knew for a fact GSF leadership were afraid of a foreverwar :V No source in GSF leadership. Aryth merely does not know how to use Twitter. I'm undecided on which version is actually funnier, though. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Raketefrau
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:59:00 -
[217] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
IMHO that would be an incredibly lame thing to do. I'm not happy that some people have gazillions of ill-gotten isk, but they were entirely playing the game within your intended scheme, just not in a way you had envisioned.
Reverting those funds is crossing a line. It's shitting in the sandbox. |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
576
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:59:00 -
[218] - Quote
So CCP majorly fekked up once again. All CCP has to do is create 2 expansions a year and you are still unable to deliver anything properly.
The new inventory: "we thought it was ready". FW, no one at CCP even tried to break the system, knowing that the players will do just that, "nooo said CCP, we thought it was ready".
Just stop CCP. Just tend to bug fixing and don't add anything new, since it's becoming evident you are not able to do so without releasing mayor bugs and loop holes.
As a fan I can only say I'm deeply disappointed.
I'm not pro or against Goons in any way but to the Goons, job well done, once again.
Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm... |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:59:00 -
[219] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
5 trillion isk. |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
118
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:00:00 -
[220] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:Simetraz wrote:Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
5 trillion isk. Only 5 trillion? |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
929
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:01:00 -
[221] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:Simetraz wrote:Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
5 trillion isk.
Only 5 trillion? Christ, I thought this was a lot of money or something, that's pocket change. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2404
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:02:00 -
[222] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I had actually reported the issue to CCP in it's first form 2 weeks ago. They have known to some degree what we have been doing for quite some time. I assume the first hotfix to cargo drops were a part of that.
Well regardless of what CCP decide in the end (even if they take all the isk back) it was a clever plan and congrats to you guys for keeping it quiet so long. And if they don't take the isk back you should give it to me so I can fund the foreverwar for 1 month against the new 1.1 wardec allied escalation fees!
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:04:00 -
[223] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Aryth wrote:I had actually reported the issue to CCP in it's first form 2 weeks ago. They have known to some degree what we have been doing for quite some time. I assume the first hotfix to cargo drops were a part of that. Well regardless of what CCP decide in the end (even if they take all the isk back) it was a clever plan and congrats to you guys for keeping it quiet so long. And if they don't take the isk back you should give it to me so I can fund the foreverwar for 1 month against the new 1.1 wardec allied escalation fees!
Didn't I make you 8b? That is a lotta decs |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
177
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:07:00 -
[224] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago. Lots of us made billions, regardless of whether we knew about the manipulation or not. Every Minmatar that had saved up their millions of LP cashed out gloriously, albeit not on the scale of the manipulators. 8.7 billion is completely feasible given the opportunity that opened up. BTW, thanks for releasing the info and removing the artificial prop-up. You wouldn't believe how I excited I am that the Amarr have less to complain about now, this severely cuts into the "Boo-hoo minnies are steamrolling us the system is so unfair". I'd much rather have the warzone control based on the fighting merit of the two militias. If Tier 5 is indeed much more difficult to obtain, even with all the systems held by the Minmatar militia, we'll know here pretty soon, and it will mean the system is much less conducive to "snowballing" as the "losing" factions have complained about. If we are able to hit Tier 5 again, than it nukes the 3p33n claim that we only could ever achieve Tier 5 with Goon support. Either way its a win-win. You just made my life a lot easier - maybe not that of my militia, of course, but for me personally who's job it is to monitor the state of the warzone and assess the functionality and balance of the mechanics. You've cut through the noise quite a bit by allowing the war to just play itself out, without the skewed manipulation effort. This also means the Amarr are more likely to invest in actually winning their own war, instead of simply throwing alts into the Minnie militia to sip at our juice-fountain, if the days of the Tier 5 spike have come to a close for a while. Nicely done.
So you pretty much still call out the Amarr FW side as being whiners even though any complaints about the state of the Amarr/Min FW side have been completely been completely vndicated and any cries about the system being unfair were fully justified. The fact that you weren't able to get past your own Militia's smug and self-congratulation to take a look into things further just shows how bad you are at monitoring the state of the warzone if the disparity in Tiers and upgrades didn't raise more red flags to you on their own.
If you were able to look at things objectively rather than continually drink your militia's kool-aid you would have realized there was some validity into the Amarr's claims that there was something broken, but instead you chose to label them as whiners and even after this has come out, you're still labeling them as complainers. There wouldn't have been so many alts sipping on the "[your] juice fountain" if the system was working as it should, yet your smug still acts like Tier 5 was the result of the Minmatar's work and the fact that there was no reason not to have a Minmatar LP farming alt was the work of Amarr being disorganized and NOT that there was something horribly broken with the system.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Josef Stylin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:08:00 -
[225] - Quote
goddamit goons, I want to hate you, I really do, but after reading this, I just can't |
Rembraan
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:09:00 -
[226] - Quote
This explains quite a lot. |
Shefus
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:10:00 -
[227] - Quote
>implying people care about LP |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
811
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:11:00 -
[228] - Quote
Shefus wrote:>implying people care about LP 5 trillion isk cares about LP. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
247
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:12:00 -
[229] - Quote
Josef Stylin wrote:goddamit goons, I want to hate you, I really do, but after reading this, I just can't Don't sweat it. When we come after tengus next you'll have reason enough to hate us again. |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:14:00 -
[230] - Quote
You guys need to leave Goons alone! The real enemy is Microsoft Excel spreadsheets. Don't hate the player, hate the game. |
|
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
152
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:15:00 -
[231] - Quote
This is classic - how quickly CCP was boasting about the changes to Factional Warfare and the destruction of it by the Goons. After reading the opening threads, I can see CCP babbling "Abababababa..." with Goons following up with "Porkchop sandwiches!!!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1BDM1oBRJ8 |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
247
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:15:00 -
[232] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:You guys need to leave Goons alone! The real enemy is Microsoft Excel spreadsheets. Don't hate the player, hate the game. googledocs :colbert: |
AureoBroker
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
44
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:16:00 -
[233] - Quote
i was goddamn sure this would happen in a blink. I'm more amazed at no rampant members breaking the cartel and groundflooring the LP price. Hat's off. (Gotta say, those SomethingAwful forums you come off are quite good, been lurking D&D/A&T for a week and have plenty to lurk, may even register at some point) |
The Crushah
the unified Negative Ten.
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:16:00 -
[234] - Quote
Ya know, some damn clever people play this game. After 9 years, I still dont think CCP realizes this. |
LoveFromAbove
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:18:00 -
[235] - Quote
That PHD economics dude is going to have the mother of all migraines when he sits through and looks at all of this |
Derus Grobb
Iron Oxide Institute
93
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:19:00 -
[236] - Quote
Is this an exploit? It doesn't seem like the game should work this way. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:19:00 -
[237] - Quote
Kyle Myr wrote:
Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
Jade, lying is against the TOS. You're not good enough to have spies in the group that did this.[/quote]
If lying was against the TOS then anyone and everyone involved in spying/meta gaming etc would be banned along with all the scammers in jita/jita local...
Maggie Maggie wrote: Tech moons are a design flaw. Everyone has known it for years. When you're ready to classify it as an exploit, let us know, k?
dont bait Sreegs.
|
LoveFromAbove
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:20:00 -
[238] - Quote
the goon alliance panel at next years fanfest is going to be p. good i think |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
247
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:20:00 -
[239] - Quote
Derus Grobb wrote:Is this an exploit? It doesn't seem like the game should work this way. It's a grey area. They took intended game mechanics to absurd levels. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
418
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:20:00 -
[240] - Quote
Derus Grobb wrote:Is this an exploit? It doesn't seem like the game should work this way.
We'd argue no. It was all within game mechanics - no ferrogel dupes. But as always, the final verdict is in CCP's hands. And to be fair, we are obviously biased. |
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
811
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:20:00 -
[241] - Quote
Derus Grobb wrote:Is this an exploit? It doesn't seem like the game should work this way. Its exploiting mechanics, not a bug, which is actually pretty much legit in EVE.
If it was ruled as a bug, then there is likely to be some backlash, but it really wasn't a bug, just a an equation that didn't take into account the amount of resources certain organizations can pour into it. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Xeross155
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:21:00 -
[242] - Quote
LoveFromAbove wrote:the goon alliance panel at next years fanfest is going to be p. good i think Depends on how shitfaced Mittens gets |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:22:00 -
[243] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Derus Grobb wrote:Is this an exploit? It doesn't seem like the game should work this way. It's a grey area. They took intended game mechanics to absurd levels.
Anything worth doing is worth doing five trillion times. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
811
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:23:00 -
[244] - Quote
Xeross155 wrote:LoveFromAbove wrote:the goon alliance panel at next years fanfest is going to be p. good i think Depends on how shitfaced Mittens gets Think DNS Black is gonna get him liquored up again? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
390
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:23:00 -
[245] - Quote
Xeross155 wrote:Simetraz wrote:Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
CCP messed up new FW mechanics, Goons exploited for trillions if not quadrillions of profit ISK. And billions of LP
Really CCP decided it was an exploit ? DId you report yourselves
EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Xearal
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
300
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:23:00 -
[246] - Quote
OH MAN!
That was brilliant.. seriously Brilliant.
While I seriously hope that this has now been fixed up properly, and that at least -some- of the damage will be repaired, isk destroyed etc.. I feel totally compelled to congratulate you guys on a plan well thought out and executed.
Goons have now officially won Eve. :)
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3602
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:23:00 -
[247] - Quote
Roxwar wrote:After reading the actual post and seeing the screenies ect of the final fat wallet amounts, i decided to see how much 'real money' the total made comes out to roughly. Based on it costing -ú22 per 1b if bought via 60day GTC, Those magnificent goons are sitting on approx -ú7,744,000 worth of isk if bought with GTC's. Thats right, thats 7.75 MILLION POUNDS worth of internet spaceship money. or approx 11.6 million dollars . However you look at this, be that for or against, you have to admit, only in EVE can something like this happen, and thats why i love this game. I tip my hat to all you goon geeks that came up with this scheme, bravo fine sirs, BRAVO. you dropped a decimal point in there, i think you did 22 pounds per million not billion |
Abulurd Boniface
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:24:00 -
[248] - Quote
A tip of the hat to the Goons on this one. They have done the heavy lifting, they have done the homework, they used the system.
As I said a long time ago in some other place: it's not up to the player to decide something is an exploit or not. The designers make the game, they ought to know what they're doing.
An analysis was run, a strategy was devised, the system was used the way it was designed. It is not the player's fault the design is broken.
It's actually a backhanded compliment to the game that it attracts people who have the intellectual capacity to find a flaw in all the myriad permutations the game allows for and then set up a system to use that flaw for best effect. -And- have the intelligence to assume that a particular value is a 32-bit value to prevent it from going negative [that would have been funny :-)].
One more reason to love this crazy sandbox. This is where it's at. Here is where the light shines bright.
Kudos to you, guys! |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
424
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:24:00 -
[249] - Quote
can we get a tldr hopefully one with out semitic slurs? PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
AureoBroker
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
44
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:24:00 -
[250] - Quote
Oh, and while to a certain extent this would've been awesome, it'll probably check out in CCP's books. Bans are unlikely, but you'll get everything reversed. And possibly even the LPs you'd legitimately should have. (Seriously, at CCP no one thought about market manipulation? should've been goddamn obvious) |
|
Xenuria
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:25:00 -
[251] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. Holy ****.. Vile rat!
You actually logged in long enough to post something.
Also kudos, it's not often you goons impress me but when you do it's something like this. You guys did get a head start on this and your involvement pretty much prevented me from taking any meaningful advantage of what my team and I had gleaned in a similar fashion.
OH well...
I recommend you guys spend some time on diablo 3 real money auction house. I am making ridiculous cash with that. It's not to late to make some quick easy cash before gold becomes a purchasable commodity and then the price of everything plummets. Un-ironically, the majority of people working with me on this are from EVE. Will consult for ISK |
Ayeson
Hard Knocks Inc.
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:26:00 -
[252] - Quote
Cant post fast enough... Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour. |
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:26:00 -
[253] - Quote
lol, very interesting read. i wonder if ccp will continue to nerf lvl 4/5 missions after reading this......i think we all know the answer, yes they will. |
Zephyr Crystal
ReSpawners
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:27:00 -
[254] - Quote
you guys should invest some of that money in building up your public image, for example donating some to me. I would totally post "Goons are awesome!" after that |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
811
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:27:00 -
[255] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:Oh, and while to a certain extent this would've been awesome, it'll probably check out in CCP's books. Bans are unlikely, but you'll get everything reversed. And possibly even the LPs you'd legitimately should have. (Seriously, at CCP no one thought about market manipulation? should've been goddamn obvious) If they reverse the transactions, they break the sandbox for alot of people. Most of the Minmatar militia who had no idea what was happening, for a start.
And if they only target Goons, then they have to deal with the PR nightmare of looking like they have a vendetta against a group of players. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
811
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:28:00 -
[256] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Vile rat wrote:You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. Holy ****.. Vile rat! You actually logged in long enough to post something. Also kudos, it's not often you goons impress me but when you do it's something like this. You guys did get a head start on this and your involvement pretty much prevented me from taking any meaningful advantage of what my team and I had gleaned in a similar fashion. OH well... I recommend you guys spend some time on diablo 3 real money auction house. I am making ridiculous cash with that. It's not to late to make some quick easy cash before gold becomes a purchasable commodity and then the price of everything plummets. Un-ironically, the majority of people working with me on this are from EVE. Shoulda gone for the Gallente/Caldari fight. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Aja Jinn
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:29:00 -
[257] - Quote
So, What are you goons going to do with all the trillions of EVE Online space bucks? Will you be wearing special custom made space clothes? Titans for everyone? Gold plated rifters? How will we Know your specialness? |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
247
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:29:00 -
[258] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Vile rat wrote:You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. Holy ****.. Vile rat! You actually logged in long enough to post something. Also kudos, it's not often you goons impress me but when you do it's something like this. You guys did get a head start on this and your involvement pretty much prevented me from taking any meaningful advantage of what my team and I had gleaned in a similar fashion. OH well... I recommend you guys spend some time on diablo 3 real money auction house. I am making ridiculous cash with that. It's not to late to make some quick easy cash before gold becomes a purchasable commodity and then the price of everything plummets. Un-ironically, the majority of people working with me on this are from EVE. mercury rising kid drive by post
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:29:00 -
[259] - Quote
corestwo wrote:We'd argue that there was no exploit (unlike things in the past like the Ferrogel dupe), merely an intended mechanic stretched to a legitimate extreme, but we're clearly biased.
i'd argue the same thing, seems pretty much all developers do this when they let some thing slip through the net. instead of just saying "yeah we missed it, bravo for noticing and making the best of it" they go on a some kind of crusade fueled by their own embarrassment, it happened to blizzard activision with their latest major content patch. |
AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:30:00 -
[260] - Quote
When I grow up I will be goons they are my heroes |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2569
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:30:00 -
[261] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Quote: I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you
Confirming this. If nothing else change, minmatar will hold 56 systems after tomorrow's DT, which, once upgraded, will get them just enough to get in T5, maybe one last time before amarr starts ******* them up.
This assumes that "Goon manipulation" is the reason we've held 56 systems in the first place. All the Goons are claiming to do is to have propped up the WZ control level with their invested LP. That doesnt mean that the Amarr are necessarily going to suddenly surge forward now that our "backers" are gone. They lost all their space long before this manipulation ever took place. It's not like the easy money has anything to do with why we are winning the territory war. If Goons were claiming to have rolled hundreds of plexing alts into the militia to grind system captures, that would be a different case entirely, but they're not.
Also, the end of manipulation of the WZ control doesn't make Tier 5 a suddenly impossible achievement. It takes several million LP to invest every one of 56 systems to level V, this is easily earned by a handful of individual pilots investing an afternoon's worth of work. In other words, Goons are *not* the only ones capable of a coordinated pooling of LP upgrades by any means. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:31:00 -
[262] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:And if they only target Goons, then they have to deal with the PR nightmare of looking like they have a vendetta against a group of players.
Naa, we're used to it. Sreegs has been ******* us since long before he was Sreegs. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:32:00 -
[263] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Vile rat wrote:You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. Holy ****.. Vile rat! You actually logged in long enough to post something. Also kudos, it's not often you goons impress me but when you do it's something like this. You guys did get a head start on this and your involvement pretty much prevented me from taking any meaningful advantage of what my team and I had gleaned in a similar fashion. OH well... I recommend you guys spend some time on diablo 3 real money auction house. I am making ridiculous cash with that. It's not to late to make some quick easy cash before gold becomes a purchasable commodity and then the price of everything plummets. Un-ironically, the majority of people working with me on this are from EVE.
Some of us already are. Not my cup of tea though. I believe adanthar has made 4 figures already. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
419
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:32:00 -
[264] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:We'd argue that there was no exploit (unlike things in the past like the Ferrogel dupe), merely an intended mechanic stretched to a legitimate extreme, but we're clearly biased. i'd argue the same thing, seems pretty much all developers do this when they let some thing slip through the net. instead of just saying "yeah we missed it, bravo for noticing and making the best of it" they go on a some kind of crusade fueled by their own embarrassment, it happened to blizzard activision with their latest major content patch. We'll see.
Regardless, we're part of Eve history. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3604
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:32:00 -
[265] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Quote: I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you
Confirming this. If nothing else change, minmatar will hold 56 systems after tomorrow's DT, which, once upgraded, will get them just enough to get in T5, maybe one last time before amarr starts ******* them up. This assumes that "Goon manipulation" is the reason we've held 56 systems in the first place. All the Goons are claiming to do is to have propped up the WZ control level with their invested LP. That doesnt mean that the Amarr are necessarily going to suddenly surge forward now that our "backers" are gone. They lost all their space long before this manipulation ever took place. It's not like the easy money has anything to do with why we are winning the territory war. If Goons were claiming to have rolled hundreds of plexing alts into the militia to grind system captures, that would be a different case entirely, but they're not. Also, the end of manipulation of the WZ control doesn't make Tier 5 a suddenly impossible achievement. It takes several million LP to invest every one of 56 systems to level V, this is easily earned by a handful of individual pilots investing an afternoon's worth of work. In other words, Goons are *not* the only ones capable of a coordinated pooling of LP upgrades by any means. That is true, minmatar was picked because you were already owning amarr (probably due to speedtanking though). |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2408
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:32:00 -
[266] - Quote
Aja Jinn wrote: So, What are you goons going to do with all the trillions of EVE Online space bucks? Will you be wearing special custom made space clothes? Titans for everyone? Gold plated rifters? How will we Know your specialness?
They could pay for 20 defensive allies in the Inferno 1.1 wardec system for 2 weeks!
The best use for 5 trillion ISK
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2569
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:32:00 -
[267] - Quote
Guttripper wrote:This is classic - how quickly CCP was boasting about the changes to Factional Warfare and the destruction of it by the Goons. After reading the opening threads, I can see CCP babbling "Abababababa..." with Goons following up with "Porkchop sandwiches!!!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1BDM1oBRJ8
LOL @ Goons "destroying Faction Warfare" Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
247
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:35:00 -
[268] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Guttripper wrote:This is classic - how quickly CCP was boasting about the changes to Factional Warfare and the destruction of it by the Goons. After reading the opening threads, I can see CCP babbling "Abababababa..." with Goons following up with "Porkchop sandwiches!!!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1BDM1oBRJ8 LOL @ Goons "destroying Faction Warfare" Nah, more like Goons using FW to make dudes rich as **** while scrublords throw t1 **** at each other and preen about how influential they are. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:35:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Metal Icarus
xHELLonEARTHx LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
217
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:35:00 -
[270] - Quote
CCP should correct this by undoing this whole scam and blatant abuse.
CCP Sreegs is on the right track. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3614
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:36:00 -
[271] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote: Consider me unsubbed.
this day just keeps getting better and better |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:37:00 -
[272] - Quote
infact, is it my imagination or does the topic of this thread pretty much mimic the current UK news story about jimmy carr? |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1099
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:37:00 -
[273] - Quote
Roxwar wrote:After reading the actual post and seeing the screenies ect of the final fat wallet amounts, i decided to see how much 'real money' the total made comes out to roughly. Based on it costing -ú22 per 1b if bought via 60day GTC, Those magnificent goons are sitting on approx -ú7,744,000 worth of isk if bought with GTC's. Thats right, thats 7.75 MILLION POUNDS worth of internet spaceship money. or approx 11.6 million dollars . However you look at this, be that for or against, you have to admit, only in EVE can something like this happen, and thats why i love this game. I tip my hat to all you goon geeks that came up with this scheme, bravo fine sirs, BRAVO.
do you work for ccp's economy department? |
AureoBroker
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:37:00 -
[274] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Oh, and while to a certain extent this would've been awesome, it'll probably check out in CCP's books. Bans are unlikely, but you'll get everything reversed. And possibly even the LPs you'd legitimately should have. (Seriously, at CCP no one thought about market manipulation? should've been goddamn obvious) If they reverse the transactions, they break the sandbox for alot of people. Most of the Minmatar militia who had no idea what was happening, for a start. And if they only target Goons, then they have to deal with the PR nightmare of looking like they have a vendetta against a group of players. They'll reverse anything that has started in the trail of any manipulated item's demise, and that'd be it. Minerals will be probably left alone. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:37:00 -
[275] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
189
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:37:00 -
[276] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Quote: I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you
Confirming this. If nothing else change, minmatar will hold 56 systems after tomorrow's DT, which, once upgraded, will get them just enough to get in T5, maybe one last time before amarr starts ******* them up. This assumes that "Goon manipulation" is the reason we've held 56 systems in the first place. All the Goons are claiming to do is to have propped up the WZ control level with their invested LP. That doesnt mean that the Amarr are necessarily going to suddenly surge forward now that our "backers" are gone. They lost all their space long before this manipulation ever took place. It's not like the easy money has anything to do with why we are winning the territory war. If Goons were claiming to have rolled hundreds of plexing alts into the militia to grind system captures, that would be a different case entirely, but they're not. Also, the end of manipulation of the WZ control doesn't make Tier 5 a suddenly impossible achievement. It takes several million LP to invest every one of 56 systems to level V, this is easily earned by a handful of individual pilots investing an afternoon's worth of work. In other words, Goons are *not* the only ones capable of a coordinated pooling of LP upgrades by any means.
That is my point. you need to mass donate now to do it, before the mass donating would require more LP than people are willing to throw into it. We watched how many points you guys would hemorrhage per day. Every day since we stopped propping up Minmatar you have continued to lose points. Could you reverse this trend? Sure. Has evidence in the past shown you will, No. We think you will settle into T3 for quite some time until Amarr gets more bodies.
You gained those systems prepatch, if CCP had reset FW with the patch I think we would have never been able to do the things we did nearly as easily. Only the gross imbalance going into this patch allowed this to occur. Amarr finally will have a level playing field, or at least the opportunity to recruit and be level. No one likes bashing their head against a All 5 fortress day in an day out. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2410
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:39:00 -
[277] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting. Again. And CCP lets them stay. And its directly because you cant afford to ban them. Absolutely disgusting. Consider me unsubbed.
Look, I don't like goonswarm either but I also don't like people who use the term "exploit" wrongly (which is basically in advance of CCP game developers / gms ruling a situation "an exploit" - The developer in question "CCP Sreegs" has come and posted he's conducting an investigation and will make his mind up after he's looked at all the facts.
Give the guy a chance for heavens sake and don't go howling "exploit exploit" before something is officially categorized an "exploit" ... only very stupid people do that.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Xenuria
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:39:00 -
[278] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Xenuria wrote:Vile rat wrote:You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. Holy ****.. Vile rat! You actually logged in long enough to post something. Also kudos, it's not often you goons impress me but when you do it's something like this. You guys did get a head start on this and your involvement pretty much prevented me from taking any meaningful advantage of what my team and I had gleaned in a similar fashion. OH well... I recommend you guys spend some time on diablo 3 real money auction house. I am making ridiculous cash with that. It's not to late to make some quick easy cash before gold becomes a purchasable commodity and then the price of everything plummets. Un-ironically, the majority of people working with me on this are from EVE. Some of us already are. Not my cup of tea though. I believe adanthar has made 4 figures already.
Not bad, I mean the biggest payout was shortly after the RMAH went live. These people with way to much disposable income didn't seem to care much about price and just anamatronically bought out anything that had the highest dps. Which was typically something I put up that I had bought off the gold auction house.
I don't know how much I have made so far in total because anything in my paypal that I don't use right away goes to my campaign for CSM or gets turned into plex.
That Reminds me I need to make a kickstarter for that.
Will consult for ISK |
abitrubbish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:39:00 -
[279] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting. Again. And CCP lets them stay. And its directly because you cant afford to ban them. Absolutely disgusting. Consider me unsubbed.
Can't believe it took so many pages.
Oh, bye. |
blackpatch
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:40:00 -
[280] - Quote
:ccp: |
|
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:41:00 -
[281] - Quote
|
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:41:00 -
[282] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:
Consider me unsubbed.
Why don't you actually unsub so that we don't have to pretend you are? |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:42:00 -
[283] - Quote
THIS LEGITIMATE USE OF GAME MECHANICS VEXES ME GREATLY |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
106
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:42:00 -
[284] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:You guys need to leave Goons alone! The real enemy is Microsoft Excel spreadsheets. Don't hate the player, hate the game. googledocs :colbert: Apologies. I thought Microsoft Excel came out before Google Docs did. Anyways, down with rectangles with numbers in them!! |
Kitty Vintner
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:42:00 -
[285] - Quote
Metal Icarus wrote:CCP should correct this by undoing this whole scam and blatant abuse.
CCP Sreegs is on the right track. Hey didn't I see you in that drake gang going through 319 last night.
Sorry about killing your only scout and tackle frig, man. |
Boris Lachenkov
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:43:00 -
[286] - Quote
1. Players consider way to use in game mechanics to recieve ISKies for their toonies. 2. They figure out formulas for the ISK value of items and their respective LP costs. 3. Players use market manipulation (Something continually done in Jita and beyond) to inflate items. 4. Make a ton of ISK through use of in game mechanics vetted by Dev team. 5. Suddenly an exploit. 6. People cry.
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1099
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:43:00 -
[287] - Quote
does this mean jade will get neg-walleted/banned too?? |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1099
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:44:00 -
[288] - Quote
i mean, if sreegs finds the jewbal in unfortunate error of breaking the rules/using an exploit and doing so with the express intent of making money, one might say that jade did the same thing (although to a lesser degree) when he found the twitter message some two days ago. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:44:00 -
[289] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Courthouse wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:You guys need to leave Goons alone! The real enemy is Microsoft Excel spreadsheets. Don't hate the player, hate the game. googledocs :colbert: Apologies. I thought Microsoft Excel came out before Google Docs did. Anyways, down with rectangles with numbers in them!! It's alright man. You were just behind the times. You can't publish excel spreadsheets as easily as googledocs spreadsheets. That's why no one uses excel anymore.
Courthouse: A helpful goon |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
811
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:45:00 -
[290] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. He bought a 10 year sub and has to wait for it to run out. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
|
Roxwar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
77
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:46:00 -
[291] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Roxwar wrote:After reading the actual post and seeing the screenies ect of the final fat wallet amounts, i decided to see how much 'real money' the total made comes out to roughly. Based on it costing -ú22 per 1b if bought via 60day GTC, Those magnificent goons are sitting on approx -ú7,744,000 worth of isk if bought with GTC's. Thats right, thats 7.75 MILLION POUNDS worth of internet spaceship money. or approx 11.6 million dollars . However you look at this, be that for or against, you have to admit, only in EVE can something like this happen, and thats why i love this game. I tip my hat to all you goon geeks that came up with this scheme, bravo fine sirs, BRAVO. do you work for ccp's economy department?
i know i know, i fixted it already!! http://roxwar.blogspot.com/ |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:46:00 -
[292] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:It's alright man. You were just behind the times. You can't publish excel spreadsheets as easily as googledocs spreadsheets. That's why no one uses excel anymore.
Courthouse: A helpful goon
On the other hand, it's harder to accidentally tweet about an excel spreadsheet. |
Sephira Galamore
Nemesis Holdings Corp Luna Sanguinem
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:49:00 -
[293] - Quote
I salute you! Brilliant deed, brilliant read :D |
Montolio
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
146
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:49:00 -
[294] - Quote
Disgraceful! Unsubbed. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2410
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:50:00 -
[295] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:i mean, if sreegs finds the jewbal in unfortunate error of breaking the rules/using an exploit and doing so with the express intent of making money, one might say that jade did the same thing (although to a lesser degree) when he found the twitter message some two days ago.
Well hardly. Seeing as how the tweet in question was directed at CCP through Punkuris in the early hours of Wed Morning and I (like many other Minmatar Militia pilots) made our cash out on Sat the weekend before.
Stil, IF - there was some super harsh rollback on this stuff you could argue that ALL militia store cashouts should be reverted and if that happens I'd lose my lovely fleet stabber blueprint collection, my fleet tempest bpcs, and a bunch of minmatar starship engineeering datacores that are sat in Dal.
Lord knows how they'd do that though - would be one of the biggest rollbacks since the Exodus fleet fight fiasco.
Still your logic fails "Blawrf" on the fact I made my money before I found the tweet :)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:50:00 -
[296] - Quote
Montolio wrote:Disgraceful! Unsubbed. Can I have your stuff? |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1100
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:51:00 -
[297] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:i mean, if sreegs finds the jewbal in unfortunate error of breaking the rules/using an exploit and doing so with the express intent of making money, one might say that jade did the same thing (although to a lesser degree) when he found the twitter message some two days ago. Well hardly. Seeing as how the tweet in question was directed at CCP through Punkuris in the early hours of Wed Morning and I (like many other Minmatar Militia pilots) made our cash out on Sat the weekend before. Stil, IF - there was some super harsh rollback on this stuff you could argue that ALL militia store cashouts should be reverted and if that happens I'd lose my lovely fleet stabber blueprint collection, my fleet tempest bpcs, and a bunch of minmatar starship engineeering datacores that are sat in Dal. Lord knows how they'd do that though - would be one of the biggest rollbacks since the Exodus fleet fight fiasco. Still your logic fails "Blawrf" on the fact I made my money before I found the tweet :)
i'm sure sreegs will decide himself "Jade" :-) |
Pyrus Octavius
Koshaku Gentlemen's Agreement
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:53:00 -
[298] - Quote
I hate to say this, but I feel really stupid. Never in a million years would I have figured out something like this. Obviously, not all men are created equally (and I use men loosely because most of you grown ups still act like children).
My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
It's stuff like this that also has just made me not enjoy playing EVE too much. Log in check toon, say hi, change skill, log. That's my routine. Hoping that someday things will get to a better state where I feel the time I invest in sitting in front of my computer will be rewarding. Until then... |
Skye Aurorae
Viziam Amarr Empire
244
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:53:00 -
[299] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Derus Grobb wrote:Is this an exploit? It doesn't seem like the game should work this way. We'd argue no. It was all within game mechanics - no ferrogel dupes. But as always, the final verdict is in CCP's hands. And to be fair, we are obviously biased.
Just because you're biased doesn't mean your wrong.
Lots of parents naturally think their kids are exceptional , that bias, but, some of them are in fact exceptional. Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.
|
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
391
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:54:00 -
[300] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Courthouse wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. He bought a 10 year sub and has to wait for it to run out.
Hmmm With all the ISK that goonies have made could they say they quit as well and keep playing for then next 10 years. Oh wait can you chain in multiple plex's and how many can you do ? Hmm makes you wonder.
EVERYBODY KNOWS |
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:55:00 -
[301] - Quote
abitrubbish wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting. Again. And CCP lets them stay. And its directly because you cant afford to ban them. Absolutely disgusting. Consider me unsubbed. Can't believe it took so many pages. Oh, bye.
It has nothing to do with pages in a thread, it has to do with CCP's inability to manage their company.
Eventually there will be either no goons, or no server. SInce the game is free, my toons will be here as long as yours, if not longer.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
302
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:55:00 -
[302] - Quote
Well if CCP takes all your hard earned ISK away, then I don't really have much to say other than "well, ****."
If they don't, however, I'm simply in this thread to say that I wish I had thought of it first. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. (Link was wrong, now fixed) |
Cameron Zero
Red Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:55:00 -
[303] - Quote
Cool story. "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. GǪ" |
Suqq Madiq
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:55:00 -
[304] - Quote
Yawn. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:55:00 -
[305] - Quote
Aryth wrote:This also meant that we could cash out our hundreds of billions of ISK worth of minerals at prices far higher than on the market. For example, we cashed out Megacyte at 3300, Zydrine 1400, Nocxium at 900. So some of the very largest stockpiles of pre-drone nerf minerals no longer exists. Tying back into the mineral manipulation we have been engaging in. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again.
Yulai, you say?
Interesting.
I'll have to go visit some time. Rabble Rabble!! |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
814
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:56:00 -
[306] - Quote
Pyrus Octavius wrote:I hate to say this, but I feel really stupid. Never in a million years would I have figured out something like this. Obviously, not all men are created equally (and I use men loosely because most of you grown ups still act like children).
My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
It's stuff like this that also has just made me not enjoy playing EVE too much. Log in check toon, say hi, change skill, log. That's my routine. Hoping that someday things will get to a better state where I feel the time I invest in sitting in front of my computer will be rewarding. Until then... So.... You are mad because you didn't think of it first, and so you think everyone who profited should lose their stuff.
Sounds fair to me
At least you were halfway honest about it tho Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2410
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:57:00 -
[307] - Quote
Pyrus Octavius wrote:I hate to say this, but I feel really stupid. Never in a million years would I have figured out something like this. Obviously, not all men are created equally (and I use men loosely because most of you grown ups still act like children).
My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
It's stuff like this that also has just made me not enjoy playing EVE too much. Log in check toon, say hi, change skill, log. That's my routine. Hoping that someday things will get to a better state where I feel the time I invest in sitting in front of my computer will be rewarding. Until then...
You should join Minmatar faction warfare, sometimes all this crazy market manipulation high finance shennanigans-in-the-sky just randomly makes 10m isk fleet stabbers fall in your lap and you can content yourself by having fun and not worrying about how much the 0.0 aristocray have got. Play a cybernetic rat in the wainscotting of Eve Online, sometimes even rats have a good day.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:57:00 -
[308] - Quote
Pyrus Octavius wrote:I hate to say this, but I feel really stupid. Never in a million years would I have figured out something like this. Obviously, not all men are created equally (and I use men loosely because most of you grown ups still act like children).
Who's worse? The 'grown ups who act like children' or the mature, educated and quite obviously better than us grown ups who follow our lead? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
423
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:57:00 -
[309] - Quote
Pyrus Octavius wrote:My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
Some time ago, I was holding a very large stash of Plasmoids. Then, some clown came along and bought all the plasmoids in Jita, relisted them considerably higher, and put up a big buy order that was well above what I had bought at. So naturally, I bombed out his order and put up my remaining plasmoids on sells at the price at which his buy order had been. Within a day, plenty of new Plasmoids orders had filled in below me, and the market tumbled.
Now, this guy tried to manipulate the system and got hurt. I'm pretty sure he never got the isk back, too.
The moral of the story here is that the market is PvP, and there are no innocent bystanders. If CCP elects for consequences, so be it, but your reason for them is laughable.
Xuixien wrote:Aryth wrote:This also meant that we could cash out our hundreds of billions of ISK worth of minerals at prices far higher than on the market. For example, we cashed out Megacyte at 3300, Zydrine 1400, Nocxium at 900. So some of the very largest stockpiles of pre-drone nerf minerals no longer exists. Tying back into the mineral manipulation we have been engaging in. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again. Yulai, you say? Interesting.I'll have to go visit some time. Feel free, its not like anything is happening there anymore.
ps - there are no kills posted because we took steps to make sure they didn't get posted. |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:59:00 -
[310] - Quote
CCP's resident economist should be fired. Period. Done. Along with quite a few others at CCP.
After the CCP Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP") was enacted, I obviously can't say exactly what I think of whom. (And, I don't mean of the Goons.) |
|
Nyrak
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:00:00 -
[311] - Quote
Ironic how CCP Soundwave was all for cutting out research points for us little folks since he saw it as too easy of a passive income to give to Factional Warfare as a reward. I wonder what he thinks now? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
423
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:02:00 -
[312] - Quote
Nyrak wrote:Ironic how CCP Soundwave was all for cutting out research points for us little folks since he saw it as too easy of a passive income to give to Factional Warfare as a reward. I wonder what he thinks now? He did predict that FW would break somehow during an interview with TenTonHammer. If I recall, he even said he WANTED it to break.
Probably not quite what he had in mind, but there you go. |
Mme Pinkerton
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:03:00 -
[313] - Quote
Pyrus Octavius wrote:My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
what are you going to do about the 20m I saved when buying a +5 implant because goons had crashed that market? An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
|
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:03:00 -
[314] - Quote
Oh my God it finally happened. Autism broke Eve.
EEeehmmm... and not a single **** was given that day. Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:04:00 -
[315] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Quote: I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you
Confirming this. If nothing else change, minmatar will hold 56 systems after tomorrow's DT, which, once upgraded, will get them just enough to get in T5, maybe one last time before amarr starts ******* them up. This assumes that "Goon manipulation" is the reason we've held 56 systems in the first place. All the Goons are claiming to do is to have propped up the WZ control level with their invested LP. That doesnt mean that the Amarr are necessarily going to suddenly surge forward now that our "backers" are gone. They lost all their space long before this manipulation ever took place. It's not like the easy money has anything to do with why we are winning the territory war. If Goons were claiming to have rolled hundreds of plexing alts into the militia to grind system captures, that would be a different case entirely, but they're not. Also, the end of manipulation of the WZ control doesn't make Tier 5 a suddenly impossible achievement. It takes several million LP to invest every one of 56 systems to level V, this is easily earned by a handful of individual pilots investing an afternoon's worth of work. In other words, Goons are *not* the only ones capable of a coordinated pooling of LP upgrades by any means.
The majority of complaints had nothing to do with the fact that the Minmatar held 56 systems beforehand and had everything to do with the act that things were a ridiculously broken uphill grind due to the goon manipulations. The fact that as CSM you refused to look into things further and are content to just dismiss Amarr complaints that things were broken as just being the "losers" whining is sad especially when a lot of the people bringing up these concerns were new players to FW providing relatively neutral input.
You still seem to be in denial over the impact of the manipulations, it way overincentivized having a Minmatar LP farming alt, which should have been a red flag. The disparity in LP payouts as a whole was fairly demoralizing for the Amarr FW side especially with the ease at which Minmatar maintained high T4/borderline T5 control at all times. If you guys are able to get up to T5 on your own then kudos, but seriously, as CSM you need to get more in tune with the realities of FW and quit drinking your own kool-aid.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:05:00 -
[316] - Quote
CCP's handling of Isk->LP->Isk conversion rates |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:06:00 -
[317] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP's resident economist should be fired. Period. Done. Along with quite a few others at CCP.
After the CCP Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP") was enacted, I obviously can't say exactly what I think of whom. (And, I don't mean of the Goons.)
CCP's economist isn't dumb, he just doesn't understand EVE. |
Zvero
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:07:00 -
[318] - Quote
1. Someone at CCP is feeding Goons with internal information. 2. CCP starts internal investigation. 3. Goons post lousy explanation on forums to protect their source. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
196
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:08:00 -
[319] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Courthouse wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. He bought a 10 year sub and has to wait for it to run out. Hmmm With all the ISK that goonies have made could they say they quit as well and keep playing for then next 10 years. Oh wait can you chain in multiple plex's and how many can you do ? Hmm makes you wonder. 9000 members * 12 months * 10 Years = 1,080,000 Plex's
I was already a trillionare even before this. I have only used plex for my subs for many years.
|
Xuixien
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:08:00 -
[320] - Quote
corestwo wrote:its not like anything is happening there anymore.
Well, according to killboards nothing has happened in that entire constellation - for the past 4 months.
corestwo wrote:ps - there are no kills posted because we took steps to make sure they didn't get posted.
Riiiiight. I believe you. Rabble Rabble!! |
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
815
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:08:00 -
[321] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP's resident economist should be fired. Period. Done. Along with quite a few others at CCP.
After the CCP Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP") was enacted, I obviously can't say exactly what I think of whom. (And, I don't mean of the Goons.) CCP's economist isn't dumb, he just doesn't understand EVE. Didn't he win a nobel or something like that for his work prior to coming to CCP?
He is one of the best economists in the world, but he is still part of the real world, and I am pretty sure doesn't play EVE. Certainly not at the level that people who engage in market manipulation do. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1101
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:08:00 -
[322] - Quote
Zvero wrote:1. Someone at CCP is feeding Goons with internal information. 2. CCP starts internal investigation. 3. Goons post lousy explanation on forums to protect their source.
my god he's cracked it |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:08:00 -
[323] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP's resident economist should be fired. Period. Done. Along with quite a few others at CCP.
After the CCP Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP") was enacted, I obviously can't say exactly what I think of whom. (And, I don't mean of the Goons.) CCP's economist isn't dumb, he just doesn't understand EVE.
Aryth for CCP economist!
He Knows EVE
|
Aznwithbeard
The Tuskers
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:10:00 -
[324] - Quote
You guys do realize this is just a game right? and your plotting and trolling and "rolling in 300 trillions of isk" is just you like, playing a video game?
Its sad that you put all this effort into a game and not IRL.
Just saying. |
Kytayn
Two Brothers Mining Corp. The Retirement Club
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:10:00 -
[325] - Quote
Taking OP at face value (and I see no reason not to), I have to say this did change my opinion of the Goons (not that that matters one bit). They put significantly more effort into playing the metagame than most of us would think to do, shredded the economic model through a protracted effort over months and months, and the end result will be... CPP fixing the game to make it stronger (potentially), like Goonswarm has insisted all along. They may have their wallets reset at the end of the investigation, but the payoff wasn't the ISK in the first place.
That is impressive. Well done. |
Heimdallofasgard
T.O.R.
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:10:00 -
[326] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Aryth wrote:Xenuria wrote:Vile rat wrote:You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. Holy ****.. Vile rat! You actually logged in long enough to post something. Also kudos, it's not often you goons impress me but when you do it's something like this. You guys did get a head start on this and your involvement pretty much prevented me from taking any meaningful advantage of what my team and I had gleaned in a similar fashion. OH well... I recommend you guys spend some time on diablo 3 real money auction house. I am making ridiculous cash with that. It's not to late to make some quick easy cash before gold becomes a purchasable commodity and then the price of everything plummets. Un-ironically, the majority of people working with me on this are from EVE. Some of us already are. Not my cup of tea though. I believe adanthar has made 4 figures already. Not bad, I mean the biggest payout was shortly after the RMAH went live. These people with way to much disposable income didn't seem to care much about price and just anamatronically bought out anything that had the highest dps. Which was typically something I put up that I had bought off the gold auction house. I don't know how much I have made so far in total because anything in my paypal that I don't use right away goes to my campaign for CSM or gets turned into plex. That Reminds me I need to make a kickstarter for that.
Xenuria, pretending he's relevant, how are those 200 maligned voters doing?
I take it some of them make up your "team"? hahaha, you're like the guy who reads a wikipedia page on something then pretends to be an immediate expert in whatever transgender issues interests your sick mind.
I hope your "kickstarter" elaborates on the themes of your last attempt:
*cringe* Kick Heim. |
Fix Lag
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[327] - Quote
Sreegs used to be my CEO
oh how the mighty have fallen |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3618
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[328] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:corestwo wrote:its not like anything is happening there anymore. Well, according to killboards nothing has happened in that entire constellation - for the past 4 months. corestwo wrote:ps - there are no kills posted because we took steps to make sure they didn't get posted. Riiiiight. I believe you. eve-kill only gets your kills if you give it an api
you could easily see on dotlan how many ships were destroyed there |
Jones Bones
Imperial Outlaws
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[329] - Quote
Wait, why would they roll anything back? 5T is a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy. Lotta herpa derp in here. |
Fix Lag
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[330] - Quote
Just kidding, Sreegs, we still love you, but try not to draw comparisons to bank errors and intentional market manipulation because it's a terrible analogy, TIA |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3618
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[331] - Quote
Aznwithbeard wrote:You guys do realize this is just a game right? and your plotting and trolling and "rolling in 300 trillions of isk" is just you like, playing a video game?
Its sad that you put all this effort into a game and not IRL.
Just saying. for many of us, thinking is not hard work |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
391
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[332] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
I was already a trillionare even before this. I have only used plex for my subs for many years.
You didn't answer my question though. Can you enter multiple plex's one after another and not have to look at it for say 6 months or a year or ten years.
How many can you build up before the system says no more ?
EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[333] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote: The majority of complaints had nothing to do with the fact that the Minmatar held 56 systems beforehand and had everything to do with the act that things were a ridiculously broken uphill grind due to the goon manipulations. The fact that as CSM you refused to look into things further and are content to just dismiss Amarr complaints that things were broken as just being the "losers" whining is sad especially when a lot of the people bringing up these concerns were new players to FW providing relatively neutral input.
You still seem to be in denial over the impact of the manipulations, it way overincentivized having a Minmatar LP farming alt, which should have been a red flag. The disparity in LP payouts as a whole was fairly demoralizing for the Amarr FW side especially with the ease at which Minmatar maintained high T4/borderline T5 control at all times. If you guys are able to get up to T5 on your own then kudos, but seriously, as CSM you need to get more in tune with the realities of FW and quit drinking your own kool-aid.
le +1 |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[334] - Quote
Zvero wrote:1. Someone at CCP is feeding Goons with internal information. 2. CCP starts internal investigation. 3. Goons post lousy explanation on forums to protect their source.
It's me I'm the mole |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
802
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:12:00 -
[335] - Quote
This reminds me of CDS, except CCP seems willing to fix things the right way. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Mr M
Agony Unleashed
180
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:12:00 -
[336] - Quote
I didn't really bother to read this thread but I blame the ********** and their damned taxes.
|
Andrej Tierce
Neutrino.
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:13:00 -
[337] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Look, I don't like goonswarm either but I also don't like people who use the term "exploit" wrongly (which is basically in advance of CCP game developers / gms ruling a situation "an exploit" - The developer in question "CCP Sreegs" has come and posted he's conducting an investigation and will make his mind up after he's looked at all the facts.
Give the guy a chance for heavens sake and don't go howling "exploit exploit" before something is officially categorized an "exploit" ... only very stupid people do that.
Quote:An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
Aryth wrote:FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. They knew it was a bug, they used for their gain. And I'm pretty sure the market manipulation for profiting through FW payouts was not an intended game mechanic.
I can only go by what I know from other games. And anywhere else this would be sanctionable.
But at the end of the day it doesn't affect me, so I don't give a damn. |
Gun Gal
Dark Club
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:14:00 -
[338] - Quote
One day the whipped employees of CCP will grow a pair and ban goonswarm.
Sad when a group of people set out to ruin a game, and actually are ruining it for their enjoyment and CAP is too clueless to do anything bout it. |
Nyrak
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:15:00 -
[339] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Nyrak wrote:Ironic how CCP Soundwave was all for cutting out research points for us little folks since he saw it as too easy of a passive income to give to Factional Warfare as a reward. I wonder what he thinks now? He did predict that FW would break somehow during an interview with TenTonHammer. If I recall, he even said he WANTED it to break. Probably not quite what he had in mind, but there you go.
Bummer - broken toys in the sandbox, but after reading this forum for a while, I guess it is expected.
Thank you for the answer.
|
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
151
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:17:00 -
[340] - Quote
I wonder how many people actually read the OP. Probably less than 2% of the GD dwellers. Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity. |
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:17:00 -
[341] - Quote
Quote:Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions.
I never posted anything of the sort.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Alli Othman
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:17:00 -
[342] - Quote
Hats off to you guys.
And thanks for letting off so we can now faceroll Minmatar into obscurity. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
426
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:18:00 -
[343] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:corestwo wrote:its not like anything is happening there anymore. Well, according to killboards nothing has happened in that entire constellation - for the past 4 months. corestwo wrote:ps - there are no kills posted because we took steps to make sure they didn't get posted. Riiiiight. I believe you.
I guess those blue posts confirming it just means that we're trolling you and CCP is just participating in the trolling, right? |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
257
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:18:00 -
[344] - Quote
Andrej Tierce wrote: But at the end of the day it doesn't affect me, so I don't give a damn.
Unless you want +5 implants, in which case, you're welcome.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3619
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:19:00 -
[345] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. I never posted anything of the sort. when does your sub run out, just so we can know for sure |
Pyrus Octavius
Koshaku Gentlemen's Agreement
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:19:00 -
[346] - Quote
Mme Pinkerton wrote:Pyrus Octavius wrote:My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
what are you going to do about the 20m I saved when buying a +5 implant because goons had crashed that market?
Nothing? Because I don't have the authority to do anything. Next question.
|
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:19:00 -
[347] - Quote
Andrej Tierce wrote: They knew it was a bug, they used for their gain. And I'm pretty sure the market manipulation for profiting through FW payouts was not an intended game mechanic.
I can only go by what I know from other games. And anywhere else this would be sanctionable.
But at the end of the day it doesn't affect me, so I don't give a damn.
It wasn't so much a bug as a bonus; they realized they were essentially allowing FW people to have their cake and eat it, too, so they cut back on it.
And this is simply coupling two perfectly valid game mechanics: FW LP stores, and market manipulation. Both are 100% legal and MM is a time-honored eve mechanic.
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:20:00 -
[348] - Quote
Really anyone who consumes implants or any sort of invention based good that requires the 5 Minmatar flavor cores should be thanking us |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
257
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:20:00 -
[349] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. I never posted anything of the sort. Oh, right, it was "if CCP doesn't permaban mittani I quit"
My mistake. We've done so much rage-inducing **** to the EVE playerbase in the last 6 months it's hard to keep track of all the trolls. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1116
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:20:00 -
[350] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it. https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801any comments?
good to know you stalk every goonswarm director's twitter lol eh |
|
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:21:00 -
[351] - Quote
Alright who wants an Urza's Saga analogy up in this ***** |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:22:00 -
[352] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Wait, why would they roll anything back? 5T is a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy. Lotta herpa derp in here.
Because if they don't it will cost them real world money. The same people that are quoting how many subs the goons have can't do the same math? Its an error in the six figure range of real cash.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
257
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:23:00 -
[353] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: good to know you stalk every goonswarm director's twitter lol
It's more likely he furiously F5's CCP Punkturis' twitter.
|
Xuixien
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:24:00 -
[354] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Xuixien wrote:corestwo wrote:its not like anything is happening there anymore. Well, according to killboards nothing has happened in that entire constellation - for the past 4 months. corestwo wrote:ps - there are no kills posted because we took steps to make sure they didn't get posted. Riiiiight. I believe you. I guess those blue posts confirming it just means that we're trolling you and CCP is just participating in the trolling, right?
Blue posts don't actually confirm that the story posted is true.
Unless I missed the ones that do, in which case, it should be no effort at all for you to win the Internet with a couple of links. Rabble Rabble!! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
199
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:24:00 -
[355] - Quote
Nyrak wrote:corestwo wrote:Nyrak wrote:Ironic how CCP Soundwave was all for cutting out research points for us little folks since he saw it as too easy of a passive income to give to Factional Warfare as a reward. I wonder what he thinks now? He did predict that FW would break somehow during an interview with TenTonHammer. If I recall, he even said he WANTED it to break. Probably not quite what he had in mind, but there you go. Bummer - broken toys in the sandbox, but after reading this forum for a while, I guess it is expected. Thank you for the answer.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve-online/interviews/inferno-part-one
Stoffer aka CCPSoundwave Interview In this interview at 6:40 he starts talking about faction warfare
"I kinda hope this goes terribly wrong"
This was one of my farming characters BIO's. Just incase CCP happened to look at him. I felt it might get a laugh out of them. I hope stoffer is laughing his ass off right now.
|
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:24:00 -
[356] - Quote
I think the OP is taking the game a tad serious, all this effort and hard work for some pixel isk. Amat victoria curam. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
391
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:25:00 -
[357] - Quote
corestwo wrote:[quote=Pyrus Octavius]My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
Some time ago, I was holding a very large stash of Plasmoids. Then, some clown came along and bought all the plasmoids in Jita, relisted them considerably higher, and put up a big buy order that was well above what I had bought at. So naturally, I bombed out his order and put up my remaining plasmoids on sells at the price at which his buy order had been. Within a day, plenty of new Plasmoids orders had filled in below me, and the market tumbled.
Now, this guy tried to manipulate the system and got hurt. I'm pretty sure he never got the isk back, too.
The moral of the story here is that the market is PvP, and there are no innocent bystanders. If CCP elects for consequences, so be it, but your reason for them is laughable.
The interesting thing about the market is that the innocent bystanders aren't really effected by market manipulation at least not on a large scale. They may have to pay more for certain items but that is it cause they are not buy items in bulk.
Those that are playing the market may get crushed but that is what can happen when you play in any market. The more you have to lose the greater the risk.
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose can also be applied to using the markets as a cash cow. Don't invest in something if you can't afford to not make a profit on it.
Like any market if it is left alone it will settle out to a level that it can support. Sometimes those levels are higher then previous levels simply cause people are still willing to buy and sell at those levels.
The good thing about higher prices is that at first glance everyone is maker more, but the down side is that game play will stagnate cause people are spending more time trying to make ISK rather then spending it.
The good part is that players don't have to be dependent on the market for there goods they can go elsewhere for items. For instance alliances will become more integrated as they provide for there own and leave the rest rot.
Now that I think about it the ones most effected by the markets are the PvP alliances as they pay straight prices for everything. Those that have industrial backing will tend to continue enjoying the profits of selling off there extra's on the open market.
6 months from now things should be pretty interesting.
EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:25:00 -
[358] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Jones Bones wrote:Wait, why would they roll anything back? 5T is a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy. Lotta herpa derp in here. Because if they don't it will cost them real world money. The same people that are quoting how many subs the goons have can't do the same math? Its an error in the six figure range of real cash. i don't really see how, the plex on the market still have to be purchased with real money to begin with. or am i missing some thing very obvious here? |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
258
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:26:00 -
[359] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Jones Bones wrote:Wait, why would they roll anything back? 5T is a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy. Lotta herpa derp in here. Because if they don't it will cost them real world money. The same people that are quoting how many subs the goons have can't do the same math? Its an error in the six figure range of real cash. You're delusional. The only people "hurt" by this would be mission runner types who cash out in +5s or specific minmatar faction ships.
For everyone else who wants fleet stabbers or fleet tempests or cheapo +5s for their clones this was a net benefit.
It also removed a massive amount of minerals from speculative holdings and the markets, meaning a chunk of pre-dronepoo mineral stockpiles are gone now.
You're mad because goons did a thing, not because it actually "hurt" you. |
MaCoola
RSK. Curbstomp..
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:26:00 -
[360] - Quote
First, I hate Goons. I always will probably and I really think they are ruining the game. But, I have to say I am honestly impressed at the depth you went and the meta-gaming you did on this. I liked Jita Burn and this, is just wow. Those involved have really worked hard and used a high degree of intelligence to do what you did. Truly impressive and while I despise you I will admit what you did was pretty cool and ingenuitive.
Now, Back to hating. |
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
249
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:26:00 -
[361] - Quote
Clever, in discovering the exploit.
Not so clever, in actually using the exploit in game, esp. with deliberate intent to ruin aspects of the game for other players, and requiring CCP to expend resources to undo the damage.
You are not the first players in the game to discover an exploit in the game, and you will certainly not be the last. There are always going to be design flaws and bugs in a system as complex as Eve has become. As responsible players, under the EULA, you are required to report such issues, not attempt to use them.
And, if your intent is simply to prove that an exploit will actually work, keep in mind that this is still a violation of the EULA and not too smart - just as attempting to prove in a Las Vegas casino that a sleight-of-hand trick will allow you cheat at cards isn't all that clever or smart.
If this had ended at discovering and reporting the exploit, you would deserve praise. By using the exploit, you have lowered yourself to being cheats, and it is rather sad that you actually feel good bragging about it.
I'd be rather surprised if CCP allows this to stand, unpunished. It would simply encourage more players to search for and use future exploits, some of which may have even more severe consequences and will certainly cost CCP resources, time and money to repair. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3620
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:26:00 -
[362] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Jones Bones wrote:Wait, why would they roll anything back? 5T is a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy. Lotta herpa derp in here. Because if they don't it will cost them real world money. The same people that are quoting how many subs the goons have can't do the same math? Its an error in the six figure range of real cash. dear cipher jones, noted expert on math
ccp does not allow you to pay for subscriptions in isk
it allows you to pay someone else isk to pay for your subscription in real money
hope this has been helpful
your buddy weaselior |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
200
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:27:00 -
[363] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP's resident economist should be fired. Period. Done. Along with quite a few others at CCP.
After the CCP Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP") was enacted, I obviously can't say exactly what I think of whom. (And, I don't mean of the Goons.) CCP's economist isn't dumb, he just doesn't understand EVE. Didn't he win a nobel or something like that for his work prior to coming to CCP? He is one of the best economists in the world, but he is still part of the real world, and I am pretty sure doesn't play EVE. Certainly not at the level that people who engage in market manipulation do.
One of the things i have said in gs_isk jabber and elsewhere is this.
Dr. E is probably a great economist. He doesn't know EVE. He cannot apply his knowledge to EVE unless he knows the game mechanics. Learning every mechanic in EVE is a task that could take years. Players have this knowledge already. So the guy is behind the curve not because he isn't smart, but because he doesn't know EVE as well as we do. |
Kyle Ward
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:28:00 -
[364] - Quote
Sweet baby jesus can anyone see through this circle jerk? Postin with my main |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
258
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:30:00 -
[365] - Quote
MaCoola wrote:First, I hate Goons. I always will probably and I really think they are ruining the game. But, I have to say I am honestly impressed at the depth you went and the meta-gaming you did on this. I liked Jita Burn and this, is just wow. Those involved have really worked hard and used a high degree of intelligence to do what you did. Truly impressive and while I despise you I will admit what you did was pretty cool and ingenuitive. Now, Back to hating.
Are you not entertained? |
Pyrus Octavius
Koshaku Gentlemen's Agreement
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:30:00 -
[366] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Pyrus Octavius wrote:I hate to say this, but I feel really stupid. Never in a million years would I have figured out something like this. Obviously, not all men are created equally (and I use men loosely because most of you grown ups still act like children).
My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
It's stuff like this that also has just made me not enjoy playing EVE too much. Log in check toon, say hi, change skill, log. That's my routine. Hoping that someday things will get to a better state where I feel the time I invest in sitting in front of my computer will be rewarding. Until then... So.... You are mad because you didn't think of it first, and so you think everyone who profited should lose their stuff. Sounds fair to me At least you were halfway honest about it tho No Bro, I'm not mad. I think you may need to go back to 3rd grade though, and learn how to extract tone out of piece of literature so you can once and for all learn to analyze the writers feelings, because you my friend fail at this.
You may roll your eyes, and that's fine with me, but this is my opinion, and if you don't like it, then you can move on to the next post in this epic thread. What basically occurred here was an exploit in a currency exchange. I don't know of any real world examples of such of a thing, but I would think that regulators would take note of it and take action. Even sue for restitution. Shouldn't that occur in a simulated economy where CCP is basically the Central Bank? |
Agent Type
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:30:00 -
[367] - Quote
Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time.
As a newer player and fellow member of FW I do find something like this a little disconcerting. I traded my first two months of the game to make some billions of ISK. It was a lot of work, took me time finding items, shipping, updating, etc. I was happy to do it as I felt I was making a large amount more money then an average player, while not investing a ton of time into the game (compared to if I were doing missions). Knowing that another group was printing trillions of ISK while I slaved to make my billions is rather annoying.
That said, someone said it in one of the posts on the first page... things like this really show that some people are playing this game on an entirely different level. For that, well done! |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:31:00 -
[368] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Jones Bones wrote:Wait, why would they roll anything back? 5T is a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy. Lotta herpa derp in here. Because if they don't it will cost them real world money. The same people that are quoting how many subs the goons have can't do the same math? Its an error in the six figure range of real cash. dear cipher jones, noted expert on math ccp does not allow you to pay for subscriptions in isk it allows you to pay someone else isk to pay for your subscription in real money hope this has been helpful your buddy weaselior
WEASOLIAR! |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
427
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:32:00 -
[369] - Quote
Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time. Ratting, bounties, incursion rewards and mission rewards inject dozens or hundreds of billions of isk per day into Eve.
I'm just sayin'. |
Jennam Musana
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:33:00 -
[370] - Quote
Hastily made changes to the game code to plug the exploit might cause CONCORD to relocate themselves to Goonswarm space until the conveniently destructive mistake, after a thorough investigation to the erratically behaving aforementioned installment, in the program code is found and returned to the previous state *suspicious glances*. |
|
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:33:00 -
[371] - Quote
Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time.
No ISK was created. Keep that in mind. |
Kirtar Makanen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:33:00 -
[372] - Quote
Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time.
Someone didn't read very much. ISK was actually sunk when buying items from LP stores. Gains were made by selling items to players (no net generation of ISK) which even incurs sales tax/broker fees (sink) |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
200
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:33:00 -
[373] - Quote
MaCoola wrote:First, I hate Goons. I always will probably and I really think they are ruining the game. But, I have to say I am honestly impressed at the depth you went and the meta-gaming you did on this. I liked Jita Burn and this, is just wow. Those involved have really worked hard and used a high degree of intelligence to do what you did. Truly impressive and while I despise you I will admit what you did was pretty cool and ingenuitive. Now, Back to hating.
We deliver content!
Seriously though. I think anyone that really looks at the history of Goondom will notice we are force for change in EVE. This has almost always been good changes. The ways in which we go about highlighting game mechanics that should change may indeed be quite dramatic and colorful and attention grabbing. But the end goal is what matters.
We have long since lost count of how many nerfs we have eaten when crashing some various EVE party's. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:33:00 -
[374] - Quote
What's that, no links? Didn't think so. Rabble Rabble!! |
Hustomte
The Scope Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:34:00 -
[375] - Quote
Pandemic Legion may be the PVP god's of Eve, but Goon Swarm are the Market PVP god's of Eve representing Gëí-àGëí ߦ+ߦ¦ß¦+ߦ¦ß¦¦ß¦¦ in Ghana +¬(GùŦ«¦«¦âGÇó¦â)¦¦ |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1116
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:34:00 -
[376] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Aryth wrote:This also meant that we could cash out our hundreds of billions of ISK worth of minerals at prices far higher than on the market. For example, we cashed out Megacyte at 3300, Zydrine 1400, Nocxium at 900. So some of the very largest stockpiles of pre-drone nerf minerals no longer exists. Tying back into the mineral manipulation we have been engaging in. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again. Yulai, you say? Interesting.I'll have to go visit some time.
Step 1: Don't have either character's kill-log API on eve-kill Step 2: eh |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:34:00 -
[377] - Quote
Hustomte wrote:Pandemic Legion may be the PVP god's of Eve, but Goon Swarm are the Market PVP god's of Eve
Once we post the killmails we'll be the undisputed isk destroying Gods of eve |
AureoBroker
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:35:00 -
[378] - Quote
Dear CCP: Next time you do this, phone up Akita T and VV. Or better, hire them as economists. thanks. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
241
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:35:00 -
[379] - Quote
Many of us FW vets tried to warn CCP that this sort of war zone control set up and LP payout leaves FW wide open to be manipulated and farmed by out side groups to make billions of ISK while not taking part in FW as a whole.
I pretty much figured Goons would be the ones to do it, but I must admit you guys impressed me with thinking out side the box and doing it in a much more intelligent way than I expected. Props for finding a whole in the systems that it appears no one else noticed..
I just assumed you guys would send hundreds of farmer alts to farm LP the hard way and flip the war zone control to allow massive amounts of LP farming. That however leaves the profits in the hands of anyone that wasn't at the right place & right time.
The way you guys did it was pretty smart keeping the bulk of the long term profits to yourselves aside from guys whom happened to be around at the right time.. (luckily I was online when you guys did your final dump and I cashed out the LP's I had stashed away for a rainy day at tier V)
|
Uyeiu
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:35:00 -
[380] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:stuff i don't care about, except for Simetraz's sig Leonard Cohen's "Everybody Knows" is so perfect for EVE (at least the first few verses). I never thought about it before. It also makes a good "goons control eve" song (and also does well when interpreted as an ironic commentary on tinfoilism). |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3620
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:36:00 -
[381] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:Dear CCP: Next time you do this, phone up Akita T and VV. Or better, hire them as economists. thanks. yeah i could use some more holes to jump through like this one
definitely hire vv |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:37:00 -
[382] - Quote
Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time.
As a newer player and fellow member of FW I do find something like this a little disconcerting. I traded my first two months of the game to make some billions of ISK. It was a lot of work, took me time finding items, shipping, updating, etc. I was happy to do it as I felt I was making a large amount more money then an average player, while not investing a ton of time into the game (compared to if I were doing missions). Knowing that another group was printing trillions of ISK while I slaved to make my billions is rather annoying.
That said, someone said it in one of the posts on the first page... things like this really show that some people are playing this game on an entirely different level. For that, well done!
Edit: As a member of Fweddit (FW) I completely noticed the upgrading of systems. Woke up one morning to see all of our systems in V and though "Who the hell would waste 2 mill LP on that?". I am quite excited to be able to do FW without you boosting the Minmatar faction.. should be fun! They went down to T3 for the first time since I had joined FW.
You are not understanding the mechanics. No ISK was created. Wealth was transferred. There is a rather large distinction. If we had been printing ISK by selling to NPC buy orders, yes, that would have been truly gamebreaking. This was an ISK sink due to LP store costs. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:37:00 -
[383] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:Dear CCP: Next time you do this, phone up Akita T and VV. Or better, hire them as economists. thanks.
Hokey charts and :words: are no match for a good Goon at your side, kid. |
Pyrus Octavius
Koshaku Gentlemen's Agreement
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:37:00 -
[384] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Many of us FW vets tried to warn CCP that this sort of war zone control set up and LP payout left FW wide open to be manipulated and farmed by out side groups to make billions of ISK while not taking part in FW as a whole.
I pretty much figured Goons would be the ones to do it, but I must admit you guys impressed me with thinking out side the box and doing it in a much more intelligent way than I expected. Props for finding a whole in the systems that it appears no one else noticed..
I just assumed you guys would send hundreds of farmer alts to farm LP the hard way and flip the war zone control to allow massive amounts of LP farming. That however leaves the profits in the hands of anyone that wasn't at the right place & right time.
The way you guys did it was pretty smart keeping the bulk of the long term profits to yourselves aside from guys whom happened to be around at the right time.. (luckily I was online when you guys did your final dump and I cashed out the LP's I had stashed away for a rainy day at tier V)
Um, I believe the correct spelling is, "hole". Which mean's something completely different than, "whole". Just sayin. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1116
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:39:00 -
[385] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:Dear CCP: Next time you do this, phone up Aryth. Or better, hire him as an economist. thanks.
ftfy eh |
Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:40:00 -
[386] - Quote
I think this is a nice moment to have a nice laugh at the haters and to give a really slow clap to Aryth & crew. You magnificent bastards. |
Serptimis
The Fiction Factory Blue Nation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:40:00 -
[387] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time.
As a newer player and fellow member of FW I do find something like this a little disconcerting. I traded my first two months of the game to make some billions of ISK. It was a lot of work, took me time finding items, shipping, updating, etc. I was happy to do it as I felt I was making a large amount more money then an average player, while not investing a ton of time into the game (compared to if I were doing missions). Knowing that another group was printing trillions of ISK while I slaved to make my billions is rather annoying.
That said, someone said it in one of the posts on the first page... things like this really show that some people are playing this game on an entirely different level. For that, well done!
Edit: As a member of Fweddit (FW) I completely noticed the upgrading of systems. Woke up one morning to see all of our systems in V and though "Who the hell would waste 2 mill LP on that?". I am quite excited to be able to do FW without you boosting the Minmatar faction.. should be fun! They went down to T3 for the first time since I had joined FW. You are not understanding the mechanics. No ISK was created. Wealth was transferred. There is a rather large distinction. If we had been printing ISK by selling to NPC buy orders, yes, that would have been truly gamebreaking. This was an ISK sink due to LP store costs. True, but you walked away 5T richer and made me realise the fact that no matter how long i play this game, compared to some, i'll always be an unknowlegdeable noob |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
368
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:40:00 -
[388] - Quote
Aryth wrote:This was an ISK sink due to LP store costs. You've done EVE a service. Thank you. Nothing Found |
Heinrich Rotwang
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:42:00 -
[389] - Quote
Once more the whole get-it-in-the-ass-and-still-ask-for-more Eve Community got pnwed by the incredible Goons. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
260
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:42:00 -
[390] - Quote
Jennam Musana wrote:Hastily made changes to the game code to plug the exploit might cause CONCORD to relocate themselves to Goonswarm space until the conveniently destructive mistake, after a thorough investigation to the erratically behaving aforementioned installment, in the program code is found and returned to the previous state *suspicious glances*.
Like that mattered all weekend long in Jita. |
|
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:43:00 -
[391] - Quote
What's funny is that this can literally fund another 400 months of Hulkageddon |
Tango Zulu
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:44:00 -
[392] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP's resident economist should be fired. Period. Done. Along with quite a few others at CCP.
After the CCP Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP") was enacted, I obviously can't say exactly what I think of whom. (And, I don't mean of the Goons.) CCP's economist isn't dumb, he just doesn't understand EVE. Aryth for CCP economist! He Knows EVE
CCP can't afford him, Ayrth probably gets paid Iceland's GPD a year. |
Heinrich Rotwang
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:45:00 -
[393] - Quote
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:Once more the whole get-it-in-the-ass-and-still-ask-for-more Eve Community got pwned by the incredible Goons.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:45:00 -
[394] - Quote
Serptimis wrote:Aryth wrote:Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time.
As a newer player and fellow member of FW I do find something like this a little disconcerting. I traded my first two months of the game to make some billions of ISK. It was a lot of work, took me time finding items, shipping, updating, etc. I was happy to do it as I felt I was making a large amount more money then an average player, while not investing a ton of time into the game (compared to if I were doing missions). Knowing that another group was printing trillions of ISK while I slaved to make my billions is rather annoying.
That said, someone said it in one of the posts on the first page... things like this really show that some people are playing this game on an entirely different level. For that, well done!
Edit: As a member of Fweddit (FW) I completely noticed the upgrading of systems. Woke up one morning to see all of our systems in V and though "Who the hell would waste 2 mill LP on that?". I am quite excited to be able to do FW without you boosting the Minmatar faction.. should be fun! They went down to T3 for the first time since I had joined FW. You are not understanding the mechanics. No ISK was created. Wealth was transferred. There is a rather large distinction. If we had been printing ISK by selling to NPC buy orders, yes, that would have been truly gamebreaking. This was an ISK sink due to LP store costs. True, but you walked away 5T richer and made me realise the fact that no matter how long i play this game, compared to some, i'll always be an unknowlegdeable noob
This describes most goons too. So I wouldn't let it bother you. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:50:00 -
[395] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Jones Bones wrote:Wait, why would they roll anything back? 5T is a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy. Lotta herpa derp in here. Because if they don't it will cost them real world money. The same people that are quoting how many subs the goons have can't do the same math? Its an error in the six figure range of real cash. dear cipher jones, noted expert on math ccp does not allow you to pay for subscriptions in isk it allows you to pay someone else isk to pay for your subscription in real money hope this has been helpful your buddy weaselior
CCP finally released subscription numbers in May and admitted they are down tens of thousands of subs. In your world of advanced corporate maths I'm sure its somehow great to have less income and devalued currency.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:51:00 -
[396] - Quote
Uyeiu wrote:Simetraz wrote:stuff i don't care about, except for Simetraz's sig Leonard Cohen's "Everybody Knows" is so perfect for EVE (at least the first few verses). I never thought about it before. It also makes a good "goons control eve" song (and also does well when interpreted as an ironic commentary on tinfoilism).
Somebody said "Everybody Knows" in a thread not long ago and the song just popped in there. It is just too prefect for EVE in so many ways I just couldn't resist I finally found a Sig I will be keeping for a long time EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Ryoken McKeon
Obstergo TEMNAVA
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:52:00 -
[397] - Quote
This is why anti-goons are fools. "Goons suck"
Oh really? Then why do they, through meticulous research, skill, and intelligence manage to pull one over on the entire EVE community AGAIN AND AGAIN? I can't stand people (Sorry that I missed you the other day Jade, just beat my lock.) who whine about the group that plays this game to the fullest, and reaps the benefits of doing so. If you want to nerf goons, do yourself, in game, the way they've nerfed you. |
j hext
sleep Deprivation INC. LLC The Skeleton Crew
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:52:00 -
[398] - Quote
I find it amazing that there are some people out there with this amount of intellect that would waste there time just to screw over a game, when it can be done to make REAL money!!
Please tell me that the people that did this are in RL rich and powerful people! If not you dam well should be!
While i don't like the fact that you did screw over the game for many people i must take my hat off to you for doing this. Well done goons, well done
|
Heimdallofasgard
T.O.R.
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:52:00 -
[399] - Quote
Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan Kick Heim. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:52:00 -
[400] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
I for one am looking forward to the design glitch - "t2 blueprint lottery" along with the trillions made off that being rolled back.
|
|
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
241
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:52:00 -
[401] - Quote
Pyrus Octavius wrote:Mutnin wrote:Many of us FW vets tried to warn CCP that this sort of war zone control set up and LP payout left FW wide open to be manipulated and farmed by out side groups to make billions of ISK while not taking part in FW as a whole.
I pretty much figured Goons would be the ones to do it, but I must admit you guys impressed me with thinking out side the box and doing it in a much more intelligent way than I expected. Props for finding a hole in the system that it appears no one else noticed..
I just assumed you guys would send hundreds of farmer alts to farm LP the hard way and flip the war zone control to allow massive amounts of LP farming. That however leaves the profits in the hands of anyone that wasn't at the right place & right time.
The way you guys did it was pretty smart keeping the bulk of the long term profits to yourselves aside from guys whom happened to be around at the right time.. (luckily I was online when you guys did your final dump and I cashed out the LP's I had stashed away for a rainy day at tier V) Um, I believe the correct spelling is, "hole". Which mean's something completely different than, "whole". Just sayin.
I had already corrected the typo before you finished quoting. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
260
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:53:00 -
[402] - Quote
j hext wrote:I find it amazing that there are some people out there with this amount of intellect that would waste there time just to screw over a game, when it can be done to make REAL money!!
In the real world everything about this would be extremely illegal.
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:55:00 -
[403] - Quote
Quote:Oh really? Then why do they, through meticulous research, skill, and intelligence manage to pull one over on the entire EVE community AGAIN AND AGAIN?
By overtly violating the EULA.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:58:00 -
[404] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote: CCP finally released subscription numbers in May and admitted they are down tens of thousands of subs. In your world of advanced corporate maths I'm sure its somehow great to have less income and devalued currency.
erm....
Quote:CCP has send me new EVE numbers, they look good, 361k subs, so they can celebrate their 9th anniversary knowing they are back on the rise.
http://mmodata.blogspot.com/2012/05/mmodata-charts-v39-in-works.html |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:58:00 -
[405] - Quote
j hext wrote:Please tell me that the people that did this are in RL rich and powerful people! If not you dam well should be!
RL power is overrated. People expect things from you.
Money is always nice though. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3621
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:58:00 -
[406] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote: CCP finally released subscription numbers in May and admitted they are down tens of thousands of subs. In your world of advanced corporate maths I'm sure its somehow great to have less income and devalued currency.
dear noted expert on numbers cipher jones: you are holding the chart upsidedown |
Amnesia Amsterdam
Intelli-core The Mockers AO
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:58:00 -
[407] - Quote
Hats off for working out the intricacies of the exploit, but why make yourself look like a douchbag with the anti-semitic language? Jewbal? "biggest jew haul"? . Dickhead. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
261
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:01:00 -
[408] - Quote
Amnesia Amsterdam wrote:Hats off for working out the intricacies of the exploit, but why make yourself look like a douchbag with the anti-semitic language? Jewbal? "biggest jew haul"? . Dickhead. We're following in the time honored jewish tradition of claiming biblical rights to exploitation and manipulation of a minority populace's goods, people and homes. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:03:00 -
[409] - Quote
Counting my space-shekels right now. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
207
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:05:00 -
[410] - Quote
Amnesia Amsterdam wrote:Hats off for working out the intricacies of the exploit, but why make yourself look like a douchbag with the anti-semitic language? Jewbal? "biggest jew haul"? . Dickhead.
It isn't a slander, it's the name we refer to a group of 8 guys within Goons. A hybrid of jewish+cabal. The greater economic focused group is referred to as gs_isk. I am not sure how you arrived at haul at all. |
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:06:00 -
[411] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:Oh really? Then why do they, through meticulous research, skill, and intelligence manage to pull one over on the entire EVE community AGAIN AND AGAIN? By overtly violating the EULA. can you show us what parts of the eula they so overtly violated
We logged in.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
207
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:07:00 -
[412] - Quote
j hext wrote:I find it amazing that there are some people out there with this amount of intellect that would waste there time just to screw over a game, when it can be done to make REAL money!! Please tell me that the people that did this are in RL rich and powerful people! If not you dam well should be! While i don't like the fact that you did screw over the game for many people i must take my hat off to you for doing this. Well done goons, well done
We make a joke about it a lot, but it is true. The upper echelon of Goonswarm is filled with lawyers, engineers and other high paying successful fields. Myself included. EVE is simply a hobby that allows one to scratch a very special itch. |
Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:08:00 -
[413] - Quote
You can reverse our financial gains, but you can never take our smug. |
Mme Pinkerton
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:09:00 -
[414] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan how so?
sounds like goons removed some ISK from the economy and blew up large stacks of high-ends. An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3622
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:15:00 -
[415] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan ahahahaha
everybody involved in this loves to mock VV, if you know anything about the market reading his stuff and realizing he's 100% serious is the most hilarious thing ever |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
885
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:16:00 -
[416] - Quote
Mme Pinkerton wrote:Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan how so? sounds like goons removed some ISK from the economy and blew up large stacks of high-ends. I like how now CCP is looking into taking action against Goons for blowing up their own **** for which they willingly paid too much. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Yoshite McLulzypants
People called Romanes they go the house
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:16:00 -
[417] - Quote
"300 TRILLION LOL SCROOGE MCDUCK"
"smug bank error stuff"
"5 trillion was just kidding bro" |
Amnesia Amsterdam
Intelli-core The Mockers AO
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:17:00 -
[418] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Amnesia Amsterdam wrote:Hats off for working out the intricacies of the exploit, but why make yourself look like a douchbag with the anti-semitic language? Jewbal? "biggest jew haul"? . Dickhead. It isn't a slander, it's the name we refer to a group of 8 guys within Goons. A hybrid of jewish+cabal. The greater economic focused group is referred to as gs_isk. I am not sure how you arrived at haul at all.
Okay, If that is the case then I unreservedly retract my objections and post. Apologies. However you have to admit to the uninitiated the term Jewbal and the sentance "But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down." might look a just little anti -semetic. Just sayin like... |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:17:00 -
[419] - Quote
Mme Pinkerton wrote:Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan how so? sounds like goons removed some ISK from the economy and blew up large stacks of high-ends.
It would be hilarious if that did indeed lead to a mineral peak, due to the wrong reasons entirely.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
212
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:18:00 -
[420] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan how so? sounds like goons removed some ISK from the economy and blew up large stacks of high-ends. I like how now CCP is looking into taking action against Goons for blowing up their own **** for which paid willingly paid too much.
This is probably the most succinct explanation of this. It's basically just old school insurance fraud + forex + manipulation |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3624
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:19:00 -
[421] - Quote
"illuminati" was already taken unfortunately |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
429
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:19:00 -
[422] - Quote
Amnesia Amsterdam wrote:Aryth wrote:Amnesia Amsterdam wrote:Hats off for working out the intricacies of the exploit, but why make yourself look like a douchbag with the anti-semitic language? Jewbal? "biggest jew haul"? . Dickhead. It isn't a slander, it's the name we refer to a group of 8 guys within Goons. A hybrid of jewish+cabal. The greater economic focused group is referred to as gs_isk. I am not sure how you arrived at haul at all. Okay, If that is the case then I unreservedly retract my objections and post. Apologies. However you have to admit to the uninitiated the term Jewbal and the sentance "But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down." might look a just little anti -semetic. Just sayin like...
That term has longstanding use in MMOs to mean someone who makes money, you know. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:19:00 -
[423] - Quote
Lord Jita wrote:Cipher Jones wrote: CCP finally released subscription numbers in May and admitted they are down tens of thousands of subs. In your world of advanced corporate maths I'm sure its somehow great to have less income and devalued currency.
erm.... Quote:CCP has send me new EVE numbers, they look good, 361k subs, so they can celebrate their 9th anniversary knowing they are back on the rise. http://mmodata.blogspot.com/2012/05/mmodata-charts-v39-in-works.html
He even used the words "back on the rise". The page that you linked me to has a chart that says they are still down subs even after the new information. Thanks.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
885
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:20:00 -
[424] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Lord Jita wrote:Cipher Jones wrote: CCP finally released subscription numbers in May and admitted they are down tens of thousands of subs. In your world of advanced corporate maths I'm sure its somehow great to have less income and devalued currency.
erm.... Quote:CCP has send me new EVE numbers, they look good, 361k subs, so they can celebrate their 9th anniversary knowing they are back on the rise. http://mmodata.blogspot.com/2012/05/mmodata-charts-v39-in-works.html He even used the words "back on the rise". The page that you linked me to has a chart that says they are still down subs even after the new information. Thanks. Come on Cipher, we've been over this.
People like you and me, we keep on payin'. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3624
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:21:00 -
[425] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:He even used the words "back on the rise". The page that you linked me to has a chart that says they are still down subs even after the new information. Thanks.
"incarna" |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
212
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:21:00 -
[426] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:"illuminati" was already taken unfortunately
Weaselior and I are both in this. We collect secret clubs like VV collects candles.
We are in one called GARPA too. Omg leaking goon secrets.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3624
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:22:00 -
[427] - Quote
cipher jones you have not thanked me yet for my numerous friendly corrections of you
please do so |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:23:00 -
[428] - Quote
I was going to quit EVE because I was bored. This whole thing gave me a new perspective for the game. It looks more interesting somehow. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
885
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:23:00 -
[429] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan how so? sounds like goons removed some ISK from the economy and blew up large stacks of high-ends. I like how now CCP is looking into taking action against Goons for blowing up their own **** for which they willingly paid too much. This is probably the most succinct explanation of this. It's basically just old school insurance fraud + forex + manipulation
Thanks. I also like how you managed to farm losses in PVP in the only game out there supposedly designed around not allowing such a mechanic to be profitable.
I fully appreciate why Soundwave hoped it failed. Well played, sirs. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Coca Carola
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:25:00 -
[430] - Quote
I'm ashamed to say that I'm starting to admire goon entrepreneurship |
|
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:31:00 -
[431] - Quote
CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP") deleted my Liked post. AND I DID NOT VIOLATE THE NEW TERMS.
I am now deleting all of my prior posts. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1119
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:31:00 -
[432] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:cipher jones you have not thanked me yet for my numerous friendly corrections of you
please do so
he has also failed to point out what parts of the eula they violated in this process eh |
Fix Lag
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:31:00 -
[433] - Quote
Coca Carola wrote:I'm ashamed to say that I'm starting to admire goon entrepreneurship
There is no shame, just love. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
885
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:32:00 -
[434] - Quote
Darth Gustav Running for CSM8 on a PRO-FW TICKET.
Look I really don't care about FW at all, but as your FW CSM representative I pledge to remain entrenched in null-sec fighting everyone I can engage. When targets are lacking, I pledge to remain further separated from FW by suicide ganking the remaining miners in high-sec who refuse to acknowledge that mining is not an AFK activity by design and philosophy. Therefore, unlike your current FW rep, Hans Jagerblitzen, I will remain neutral to your needs, wants, successes and failings. This is because they will all be totally irrelevant to me.
Therefore, as an objective but interested third party, I can more effectively address the failings and successes of FW as a feature and as an arena of iteration as shared by you all to me.
It might be early, but hell, give it a think. Do you really want your FW represntative on the CSM fighting against you after he admittedly completely neglected the respective complaints of one entire faction for his own personal gain and profit?
For that matter, "Impeach Hans!" He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1388
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:32:00 -
[435] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan
Why should I have predicted a peak in July? Where would I have posted that thing?
Or are you using my name to put people buy stock you purchased and remained the guy with the lit match in the hands?
What I say and think is officially posted on this thread and on the trading section of my website. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Shalia Ripper
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:33:00 -
[436] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
"you got me monologuing" Why can't I just delete my signature CCP? WHYYYYYYY? |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:38:00 -
[437] - Quote
You just gave 10,000 people 100 billion each, the market is about to go apeshit crazy . |
Temmu Guerra
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:40:00 -
[438] - Quote
glad to see goons come out posting in droves... impressive 22 pages after 3 hrs! |
Elinarien
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:41:00 -
[439] - Quote
Aryth wrote:This is a story of what happens when the sandbox gets so complicated, it becomes possible for truly magical opportunities. Greed IS GoodWe went straight to plaid ... .
Great stuff. Always enjoy reading about a good scam. |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
819
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:43:00 -
[440] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:You just gave 10,000 people 100 billion each, the market is about to go apeshit crazy . Yah I wonder how much truth there is to this. If it's real the economy is pretty much hosed and PLEX is about to cost billions.
dem goons...
|
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
430
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:43:00 -
[441] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:I was going to quit EVE because I was bored. This whole thing gave me a new perspective for the game. It looks more interesting somehow.
Cool, we saved a subscription for Eve.
Imagine how many new subscriptions they could get if they publicized this as a demonstration of the sandbox?
Jayrendo Karr wrote:You just gave 10,000 people 100 billion each, the market is about to go apeshit crazy . No we didn't. This was a small group of people, not every single goon. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:44:00 -
[442] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:I was going to quit EVE because I was bored. This whole thing gave me a new perspective for the game. It looks more interesting somehow.
Content on this scale is something unique to EVE and why I play it personally. CCP has provided us the best sandbox you could ask for. We keep getting patches like this that widen the game experience even more. Personally, I hope more people come into EVE through the content we generate. It's compelling stuff compared to the rest of the MMO world. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:44:00 -
[443] - Quote
So, did you personally pushed a button for hundreds of implants and thousands of BPC? How long did it took you to redeem all that **** from the LP store? |
Hustomte
The Scope Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:44:00 -
[444] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:You just gave 10,000 people 100 billion each, the market is about to go apeshit crazy .
One quadrillion? representing Gëí-àGëí ߦ+ߦ¦ß¦+ߦ¦ß¦¦ß¦¦ in Ghana +¬(GùŦ«¦«¦âGÇó¦â)¦¦ |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:45:00 -
[445] - Quote
Well. If CCP does not remove the isk. I'm sure you can do some really good market manipulation and ruin the game as has been the goal for some time now, yes?
If CCP does remove the isk, I wonder how things will go.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
215
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:46:00 -
[446] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:So, did you personally pushed a button for hundreds of implants and thousands of BPC? How long did it took you to redeem all that **** from the LP store?
G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:46:00 -
[447] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote:Well. If CCP does not remove the isk. I'm sure you can do some really good market manipulation and ruin the game as has been the goal for some time now, yes?
If CCP does remove the isk, I wonder how things will go.
That ISk is literally in the hands of everybody in Eve already.
True story. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:48:00 -
[448] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pisov viet wrote:So, did you personally pushed a button for hundreds of implants and thousands of BPC? How long did it took you to redeem all that **** from the LP store? G19 macro you hold down. Fckin' unfair advantage, man. |
Heimdallofasgard
T.O.R.
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:49:00 -
[449] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan Why should I have predicted a peak in July? Where would I have posted that thing? Or are you using my name to put people buy stock you purchased and remained the guy with the lit match in the hands? What I say and think is officially posted on this thread and on the trading section of my website.
Link
May have been double bottoms, but, there was a post where you linked a graph and a lengthy explanation of it, with peaks in July, might be in amongst that threadnaught you linked o.0
and naw... the mins I had went off to manufacturing some stuff instead.
Kick Heim. |
Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:53:00 -
[450] - Quote
wroing thread |
|
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:57:00 -
[451] - Quote
The antisemitism does need to stop though, I'm not one for political correctness normally but wow this is offensive. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:57:00 -
[452] - Quote
Postin' itt because I'm part of the jewbal and reading about this in jabber has been amusing. They did good work. Very good work. This thread is all I expected it to be. Hi CCP!
I've also been too busy playing D3 to actually login and take advantage of this myself (when you are uberrich and also have a Titan, isk is no longer a motivation to login to Eve Online) . |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
219
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:00:00 -
[453] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Postin' itt because I'm part of the jewbal and reading about this in jabber has been amusing. They did good work. Very good work. This thread is all I expected it to be. Hi CCP!
I've also been too busy playing D3 to actually login and take advantage of this myself (when you are uberrich and also have a Titan, isk is no longer a motivation to login to Eve Online) .
For those non-goons reading this. Imagine a channel of 8, up to 10. That all knew about this, and only 5 did it. Because several of them were playing D3. Limited scope for sure. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:01:00 -
[454] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Postin' itt because I'm part of the jewbal and reading about this in jabber has been amusing. They did good work. Very good work. This thread is all I expected it to be. Hi CCP!
I've also been too busy playing D3 to actually login and take advantage of this myself (when you are uberrich and also have a Titan, isk is no longer a motivation to login to Eve Online) . Since you don't login anyway and are obviously not biased, can I get your endorsement for FW CSM8? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:04:00 -
[455] - Quote
Congratulations for the money
Anyway to clarify something this was after all just affecting the financial upgrade of FW.
No systems were won or lost easier due to this. (So stop gloating about that Goons) |
saltrock0000
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:05:00 -
[456] - Quote
Well plaid goons......... well played.
On a side note, CCP nurfed incursions the ISK fountain but handed goons trillibillions trolololol
If i ever make a computer game, goons arnt invited to play :) |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:06:00 -
[457] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:Congratulations for the money Anyway to clarify something this was after all just affecting the financial upgrade of FW. No systems were won or lost easier due to this. (So stop gloating about that Goons) This post made me think of a very good question for Aryth & crew:
Did this skyrocket your standings as a by-product?
Thanks in advance for the tip, either way.
saltrock0000 wrote:Well plaid goons......... well played.
On a side note, CCP nurfed incursions the ISK fountain but handed goons trillibillions trolololol
If i ever make a computer game, goons arnt invited to play :) Why not? Apparently it's a good business model...free advertising and rich clients! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
BiaXia
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:07:00 -
[458] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:The antisemitism does need to stop though, I'm not one for political correctness normally but wow this is offensive.
I wouldn't really call it anti-Semitic, he merely used the word Jew in a context that they are a group of jews. For all you know the whole group responsible for this caper could indeed all be Sons of Abraham and are expressing pride in their heritage.
You're the one putting negative connotations around the Jewish faith. |
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:07:00 -
[459] - Quote
Well played. I have but one question: why didn't you make Caldari alts for even more profit?
Quote:On a lark one of us went one morning and fully upgraded all 13 Amarr systems to level 5. The next day this was repeated along with the 2 systems they won from the day before, allowing the Amarr faction to finally hit T2. |
Phoenixx
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:07:00 -
[460] - Quote
Funny stuff; you really exploited the sh!t out of CCP this time. It most certainty should be mitigated in some manner though; either through ISK penalties or removal of some items.
Claiming that you shouldn't be penalized for exploiting a design flaw is a bit like saying you shouldn't go to jail for robbing a bank that was really easy to rob (obviously it is not the exact same thing, so don't get all pissy about it; I'm just using it as an example).
Finding a way to easily to rob banks, such as walking through a backdoor no one else apparently can find, that allows me to just stroll in and grab heaps of cash, leave and then rinse and repeat all over town - is illegal.
Informing said town's police force that I am committing robbery at these banks, telling them how to fix it, and continuing to rob the banks - is still illegal. The police won't let me keep the cash because I'm claiming I'm a good guy for telling them of the poor bank security.
Here, Goons are funnily enough trying to do the same thing. They exploited the sh!t out of a game flaw design - that amounts to robbery - and now they want to claim they should keep the plunder because they told CCP about it?
Give me a break.
Tallian Saotome wrote: And if they only target Goons, then they have to deal with the PR nightmare of looking like they have a vendetta against a group of players.
CCP doesn't have to, and won't, "target" Goons. They will target the individual players who directly exploited the design flaw. That said, you're essentially arguing that there will be a PR nightmare because people who essentially cheated are being penalized? That doesn't make sense. |
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:07:00 -
[461] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:Well plaid goons......... well played.
On a side note, CCP nurfed incursions the ISK fountain but handed goons trillibillions trolololol
If i ever make a computer game, goons arnt invited to play :) why not? they're clearly the most thorough testers known to man. |
stoicfaux
1124
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:08:00 -
[462] - Quote
Impressive. +1 for teh Goons.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
221
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:08:00 -
[463] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Sheynan wrote:Congratulations for the money Anyway to clarify something this was after all just affecting the financial upgrade of FW. No systems were won or lost easier due to this. (So stop gloating about that Goons) This post made me think of a very good question for Aryth & crew: Did this skyrocket your standings as a by-product? Thanks in advance for the tip, either way.
No, it doesn't impact your standings at all. |
Kilylol
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:08:00 -
[464] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Ya rely got dem gewns. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
221
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:09:00 -
[465] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:Well played. I have but one question: why didn't you make Caldari alts for even more profit? Quote:On a lark one of us went one morning and fully upgraded all 13 Amarr systems to level 5. The next day this was repeated along with the 2 systems they won from the day before, allowing the Amarr faction to finally hit T2.
I never said we didn't. Hence the CNR's on the market. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
434
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:09:00 -
[466] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:Well played. I have but one question: why didn't you make Caldari alts for even more profit? Quote:On a lark one of us went one morning and fully upgraded all 13 Amarr systems to level 5. The next day this was repeated along with the 2 systems they won from the day before, allowing the Amarr faction to finally hit T2.
Minmatar paid 1/2 base price due to already having tier 4, plus it gave an advantageous multiplier - you get 5% extra LP per level above tier 2 for kills.
That said...have you LOOKED at caldari navy ravens and scorpions lately? |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
886
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:10:00 -
[467] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Sheynan wrote:Congratulations for the money Anyway to clarify something this was after all just affecting the financial upgrade of FW. No systems were won or lost easier due to this. (So stop gloating about that Goons) This post made me think of a very good question for Aryth & crew: Did this skyrocket your standings as a by-product? Thanks in advance for the tip, either way. No, it doesn't impact your standings at all. Maybe CCP has the rewards systems for PVP and Plexing backwards, then?
I wonder what the FW crowd think. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Willie Horton
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:11:00 -
[468] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote:Well. If CCP does not remove the isk. I'm sure you can do some really good market manipulation and ruin the game as has been the goal for some time now, yes?
If CCP does remove the isk, I wonder how things will go.
Not that I like guys that made post ,but for this they should remove some of their dev''s not isk.This is really slap in face and humiliating to some point.
It is ok to make some changes and include something new ,but if you do that without thinking properly than ......this happens.
After UI fail and some "balancing" (perfect example new Merlin ) they should really think next time.
Don't get me wrong they do great stuff too ,but some parts are failing badly . |
Bart Wart
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:12:00 -
[469] - Quote
*slow clap* Well done CCP. Well done. Except for the graphics team, you managed to royally F'up everything in Inferno. Some people might call this gross incompetence. How is it that certain people still have jobs over there? |
Lord Zim
890
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:13:00 -
[470] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:The antisemitism does need to stop though, I'm not one for political correctness normally but wow this is offensive. For something to be anti-semitic, there has to be vitriol involved. Just saying the word "jew" isn't anti-semitism.
Basically, what you're doing is probably more anti-semitic than what they're doing, since they're using A Word, and you're assigning bad connotations and intentions to said word. |
|
SamGromoff
Padded Helmets
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:17:00 -
[471] - Quote
I am Jewish IRL (unironically) and a Jewbal member. Relax, it's an irony thing. |
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:17:00 -
[472] - Quote
well done ccp 8) this addon is truly an INFERNO
and what was the words in the trailer ? its all about numbers ? lulz |
Veng3ance
Illicit Technologies
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:19:00 -
[473] - Quote
Wait this didn't create isk? Mostly took it from mission runners? And destroyed a bunch of isk?
Awesome! I approve. |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:21:00 -
[474] - Quote
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP"). |
Triple Entendre
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:23:00 -
[475] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:
We killed the villains(pubbies) but occasionally you get struck by lightning when doing the **** yeah dance while holding a golf club.
This is possibly one of the simplest. yet greatest quotes to ever grace these forums. |
Forum Puppet
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:24:00 -
[476] - Quote
Willie Horton wrote: Not that I like guys that made post ,but for this they should remove some of their dev''s not isk.This is really slap in face and humiliating to some point.
What this story actually proves :
1. it pays up to be a goon in eve. CCP's "bugs" will not result in any retribution against you if youre a goon. remember the slip with planetary components ? they were all transformed in "broken" and isk was not paid back. See if they will take any measure against goons now. They even feel so confident that they brag about it on the forums !
2. goons really have no RL. I am really fortunate if i get to play half an hour per day ( not that the late changes in eve made anything to prevent from getting bored if i play more ). I mean really, those guys have nothing else better to do than to grind spreadsheets and brainstorm over how to get advantage of CCPs mistakes ? I still think this is a joke - otherwise i feel very sorry for them. |
Fix Lag
299
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:27:00 -
[477] - Quote
Forum Puppet wrote:Willie Horton wrote: Not that I like guys that made post ,but for this they should remove some of their dev''s not isk.This is really slap in face and humiliating to some point.
What this story actually proves : 1. it pays up to be a goon in eve. CCP's "bugs" will not result in any retribution against you if youre a goon. remember the slip with planetary components ? they were all transformed in "broken" and isk was not paid back. See if they will take any measure against goons now. They even feel so confident that they brag about it on the forums ! 2. goons really have no RL. I am really fortunate if i get to play half an hour per day ( not that the late changes in eve made anything to prevent from getting bored if i play more ). I mean really, those guys have nothing else better to do than to grind spreadsheets and brainstorm over how to get advantage of CCPs mistakes ? I still think this is a joke - otherwise i feel very sorry for them.
not to accuse you of being a forum puppet, but uh |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1344
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:28:00 -
[478] - Quote
Forum Puppet wrote: 2. goons really have no RL. I am really fortunate if i get to play half an hour per day ( not that the late changes in eve made anything to prevent from getting bored if i play more ).
__/ :smith: |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:28:00 -
[479] - Quote
Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:28:00 -
[480] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:Forum Puppet wrote:Willie Horton wrote: Not that I like guys that made post ,but for this they should remove some of their dev''s not isk.This is really slap in face and humiliating to some point.
What this story actually proves : 1. it pays up to be a goon in eve. CCP's "bugs" will not result in any retribution against you if youre a goon. remember the slip with planetary components ? they were all transformed in "broken" and isk was not paid back. See if they will take any measure against goons now. They even feel so confident that they brag about it on the forums ! 2. goons really have no RL. I am really fortunate if i get to play half an hour per day ( not that the late changes in eve made anything to prevent from getting bored if i play more ). I mean really, those guys have nothing else better to do than to grind spreadsheets and brainstorm over how to get advantage of CCPs mistakes ? I still think this is a joke - otherwise i feel very sorry for them. not to accuse you of being a forum puppet, but uh
i see what you did there sir |
|
abitrubbish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:29:00 -
[481] - Quote
Forum Puppet wrote:Willie Horton wrote: Not that I like guys that made post ,but for this they should remove some of their dev''s not isk.This is really slap in face and humiliating to some point.
What this story actually proves : 1. it pays up to be a goon in eve. CCP's "bugs" will not result in any retribution against you if youre a goon. remember the slip with planetary components ? they were all transformed in "broken" and isk was not paid back. See if they will take any measure against goons now. They even feel so confident that they brag about it on the forums ! 2. goons really have no RL. I am really fortunate if i get to play half an hour per day ( not that the late changes in eve made anything to prevent from getting bored if i play more ). I mean really, those guys have nothing else better to do than to grind spreadsheets and brainstorm over how to get advantage of CCPs mistakes ? I still think this is a joke - otherwise i feel very sorry for them.
Well done for (possibly) playing a game less than other people. Even better done for using some of that limited time to make a numbered post saying how little it matters to you. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:30:00 -
[482] - Quote
Forum Puppet wrote:Willie Horton wrote: Not that I like guys that made post ,but for this they should remove some of their dev''s not isk.This is really slap in face and humiliating to some point.
What this story actually proves : 1. it pays up to be a goon in eve. CCP's "bugs" will not result in any retribution against you if youre a goon. remember the slip with planetary components ? they were all transformed in "broken" and isk was not paid back. See if they will take any measure against goons now. They even feel so confident that they brag about it on the forums ! .
Me giving you this history may only serve to enrage you more. But here goes anyway.
Goons were heavily invested in components that were later to be rendered .broken
We forsaw that CCP would need to do that for the health of the game. So some of the same goons involved in this, instead made outposts with those components and had them in production lines making outputs before CCP did that nerf. The difference between that and this is, components were clearly going to break the game for years. This flushes out within weeks. In the grand scheme of things, we kept this very low key compared to how it could have gone. It would not have been healthy for the game otherwise. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2095
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:31:00 -
[483] - Quote
Nicely done, congratulations gentlemen.
I appreciate that you tipped off CCP after making your fortunes, something you didn't necessarily have to do.
My new Amarr FW alt should become a lot more interesting shortly. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Varesk
Mafia Redux Black Legion.
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:32:00 -
[484] - Quote
CCP should just fix the loophole and move on. They programed the game, released the patch and messed it up. Its CCPs fault. Goons just pointed it out.
tl;dr
goons keep rewards ccp fixes broken game with broken patch. |
ChYph3r
Multiplex Gaming SpaceMonkey's Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:35:00 -
[485] - Quote
I support my Local Goonion!
But not financially seems they have more than enough.
Can we get FULL Health and Dental benefits now? http://amp.multiplexgaming.com
Twitter = @chyph3r-á #podside #tweetfleet #podbanter #podcastPVP
|
Major Killz
State Protectorate Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:36:00 -
[486] - Quote
Time to retire to a life of never ending ship versus ships. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:37:00 -
[487] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan Why should I have predicted a peak in July? Where would I have posted that thing? Or are you using my name to put people buy stock you purchased and remained the guy with the lit match in the hands? What I say and think is officially posted on this thread and on the trading section of my website. LinkMay have been double bottoms, but, there was a post where you linked a graph and a lengthy explanation of it, with peaks in July, might be in amongst that threadnaught you linked o.0 and naw... the mins I had went off to manufacturing some stuff instead.
First of all that thread is about Zydrine only.
Then
"All you have to do is to look for confirmed double bottoms in July".
This does not mean zydrine will peak in July. It means that you may look for a double bottom which is a price formation with a "W" shape. Double bottom means "two bottoms". Bottoms in my limited dictionary are the LOWest points of price not peaks.
After a double bottom, price may rise a bit, then pull back on the top of the ideal rectangle encasing such W formation and then start slowly rising. Only then you are meant to buy. Only then, if you find a double bottom in July, might be end of July to beginning of September. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2095
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:37:00 -
[488] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base.
Now why would they need to do that? Loop holes can happen in any game.
Anyone can take advantage of them, not everyone would then turn around and make sure the loop hole got reported and closed.
I don't blame them for making some ISK out of it, it was not deemed an exploit when they were actively doing it, if fact they could just as easily STILL be doing it.
So perhaps you should take a step back before you deign to speak for the majority of the player base. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
ChYph3r
Multiplex Gaming SpaceMonkey's Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:38:00 -
[489] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base.
Hes mad he didnt find the glitch. http://amp.multiplexgaming.com
Twitter = @chyph3r-á #podside #tweetfleet #podbanter #podcastPVP
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:38:00 -
[490] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base. If this thread is any indication of the feelings of the majority of the playerbase, your opinion is in the minority.
Ranger 1 wrote:Nicely done, congratulations gentlemen. I appreciate that you tipped off CCP after making your fortunes, something you didn't necessarily have to do. My new Amarr FW alt should become a lot more interesting shortly. Given that Minmatar have lost something like 35 points in the past day... |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:38:00 -
[491] - Quote
re: PI "broken" items: money was given back (there were and still are npc buy orders for the parts that let you cash out) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2095
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:42:00 -
[492] - Quote
corestwo wrote:gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base. If this thread is any indication of the feelings of the majority of the playerbase, your opinion is in the minority. Ranger 1 wrote:Nicely done, congratulations gentlemen. I appreciate that you tipped off CCP after making your fortunes, something you didn't necessarily have to do. My new Amarr FW alt should become a lot more interesting shortly. Given that Minmatar have lost something like 35 points in the past day...
Holy crap, I really need to get home from work. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
MidnightWyvern
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:42:00 -
[493] - Quote
Mere words cannot express my love for Goonswarm Federation. You guys are ******* sick, and if you ever stop being so, I will never stop crying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eaUaJUhTZfw#t=148s An excellent example of why pod killmails are the best feature to be implemented in EVE Online since warping at zero. |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:43:00 -
[494] - Quote
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP"). |
Edington Trent
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:48:00 -
[495] - Quote
Wow, this makes me incredibly sad. I have a strong desire to just let my game time run out.
Why? There's no point in me playing eve anymore. It's pretty obvious I'll never be successful since I'll never be as clever as the people who pull stuff like this. "Keep it dangerous, keep it risky. That sense of GÇ£here goesGÇ¥ every time you undock should never leave us."-á |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:49:00 -
[496] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP have never once said they will fix the situation. Only *IF* it "merits" attention.
CCP has fixed, at least with a bandaid, the things that made this possible, and I'm sure that they plan to put a more permanent patch into place as well. The only thing remaining to be "fixed" is whether they take action against us for it. |
Myopic Thyne
Adamas Anima
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:51:00 -
[497] - Quote
Aryth wrote: Most people are myopic.
Just confirming, most people are me. I am a master of alts. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:55:00 -
[498] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base. Good luck with that, they didnt gained isk from it. Only assets.
Unless, of course, there is a part of it I didnt understoof. |
God's Apples
C0bra Gang
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:55:00 -
[499] - Quote
And not a single **** was given. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2095
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:01:00 -
[500] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP have never once said they will fix the situation. Only *IF* it "merits" attention.
CCP has fixed, at least with a bandaid, the things that made this possible, and I'm sure that they plan to put a more permanent patch into place as well. The only thing remaining to be "fixed" is whether they take action against us for it.
Yeah, the did rather leave the door open for that.
If they are smart they will work out something amicable, in return for a heads up on any similar issues that might arise in the future.
Good luck!
(At the very least you should get a hearty thank you from all of the Minmatar FW pilots that have been cashing in as well... and from the Amarr FW pilots who now get the extreme satisfaction of kicking their teeth in.) To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:07:00 -
[501] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base. Good luck with that, they didnt gained isk from it. Only assets. Unless, of course, there is a part of it I didnt understoof.
Nope, and I repeat for the low reading comprehension guys, No Isk Was Created, Only Spent |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:07:00 -
[502] - Quote
Well done Goons. This is player driven content at its best. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
693
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:10:00 -
[503] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:And not a single **** was given.
25 pages later... . |
Heimdallofasgard
T.O.R.
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:12:00 -
[504] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Pisov viet wrote:gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base. Good luck with that, they didnt gained isk from it. Only assets. Unless, of course, there is a part of it I didnt understoof. Nope, and I repeat for the low reading comprehension guys, No Isk Was Created, Only Spent
Just curious, when ships are blown up of the opposing faction and rewards are given based on ship value... that's creating LP right? ccp might argue that's an isk faucet, mind you they clearly said that was going to be a game mechanic so... yeah, working within the rules. Kick Heim. |
Travis Musgrat
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:12:00 -
[505] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
So what I am reading here is -----Edit-----
Post edited. Rule 29. Personal attacks and abuse of CCP staff is prohibited.
ISD Tyrozan Ensign Community Communications Liaisons Interstellar Services Department |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
93
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:14:00 -
[506] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
So it's ok for CCP to gift it's pet players billions in isk in the form of T2BPO but when goons take you to the cleaners using brains they did wrong? Ehm no I'm glad CCP now knows what it's like to be an EVE inventor getting ripped off while trying to do an honest days work.
Good Job goons, keep it up. You fight for the common EVE player against CCP and the pets. Burn New Eden in the name of the helpless.
Goons have stolen CCP's silver spoon that they use to feed their pets and CCP is pissed off, good work goons! |
Terribad
French Defence Union
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:16:00 -
[507] - Quote
You magnificent bastards.. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:16:00 -
[508] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Pisov viet wrote:gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base. Good luck with that, they didnt gained isk from it. Only assets. Unless, of course, there is a part of it I didnt understoof. Nope, and I repeat for the low reading comprehension guys, No Isk Was Created, Only Spent Just curious, when ships are blown up of the opposing faction and rewards are given based on ship value... that's creating LP right? ccp might argue that's an isk faucet, mind you they clearly said that was going to be a game mechanic so... yeah, working within the rules.
We spent ISK to make LP and while we(the Jewbal) will net out way ahead this was actually a huge ISK sink for EVE due to LP store costs and transaction fees. |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:20:00 -
[509] - Quote
Goons, you are all terrible, terrible I say!!!
Damn you all!!!!!
*shakes fist*
(P.S. Sreegs, I hope you're not really going to take the ISK of them. Not fair that.) I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Harrowedsmiley
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:21:00 -
[510] - Quote
Hats off to the Goons, they did the research and therefore get the profits. |
|
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:22:00 -
[511] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
So it's ok for CCP to gift it's pet players billions in isk in the form of T2BPO but when goons take you to the cleaners using brains they did wrong? Ehm no I'm glad CCP now knows what it's like to be an EVE inventor getting ripped off while trying to do an honest days work.
+10 Internet Points to you good sir! I have heard these silly accusations over and over that CCP secretly answers to Goons and their leader Mittens, and that all of CCP secretly play Eve as part of the GSF. But you are the first that I've seen with the silly accusation that CCP hates GSF and is actively trying to sabotage them. Way to be a trail blazer!
If you are only trollin though I am going to need those internet points back. Serious internet points only go to serious posts. |
Groperson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:22:00 -
[512] - Quote
As an organisation CCP could do well to learn a few things from Goonswarm, we have a more functional management structure, an effective IT infrastructure, real legal resources, and a better understanding of your game fofofofofofofofofofo :smug: |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:26:00 -
[513] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. So it's ok for CCP to gift it's pet players billions in isk in the form of T2BPO but when goons take you to the cleaners using brains they did wrong? Ehm no I'm glad CCP now knows what it's like to be an EVE inventor getting ripped off while trying to do an honest days work. Good Job goons, keep it up. You fight for the common EVE player against CCP and the pets. Burn New Eden in the name of the helpless. Goons have stolen CCP's silver spoon that they use to feed their pets and CCP is pissed off, good work goons!
Spawning a T2 BPO is pretty clear cut, you know. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
891
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:28:00 -
[514] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. So it's ok for CCP to gift it's pet players billions in isk in the form of T2BPO but when goons take you to the cleaners using brains they did wrong? Ehm no I'm glad CCP now knows what it's like to be an EVE inventor getting ripped off while trying to do an honest days work. Good Job goons, keep it up. You fight for the common EVE player against CCP and the pets. Burn New Eden in the name of the helpless. Goons have stolen CCP's silver spoon that they use to feed their pets and CCP is pissed off, good work goons! Spawning a T2 BPO is pretty clear cut, you know.
I think it was eleven.
EDIT: Just looked it up, looks like it was eight. Still. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
107
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:30:00 -
[515] - Quote
emergent game play \o/ |
Kethe
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:30:00 -
[516] - Quote
LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/ |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:32:00 -
[517] - Quote
Kethe wrote:LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/
I know you're jelly 'cuz jam don't shake like that. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:32:00 -
[518] - Quote
Kethe wrote:It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned
where a rogue goon |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:33:00 -
[519] - Quote
Kethe wrote:LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/ where do crazy people keep getting this 300t number from |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:35:00 -
[520] - Quote
Kethe wrote:LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/ The only tears I've seen seem to be yours. |
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:35:00 -
[521] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Kethe wrote:LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/ where do crazy people keep getting this 300t number from
Or the loophole |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
378
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:35:00 -
[522] - Quote
Kethe wrote:LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/ Can't wait for the tears! Nothing Found |
Mikelii
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:36:00 -
[523] - Quote
Saw Xenuria shitting up the thread a few pages back still trying to be relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ScG8kUqrY Never Forget. |
Gaia Ma'chello
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:37:00 -
[524] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Kethe wrote:It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned where
The closest Ive found:
5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
Could be argued either way, but Im sure CCP will not do any arguing. They will just act as they see fit. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
891
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:38:00 -
[525] - Quote
Kethe wrote:LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/ You seem pretty sure of that. Show me where scams are illegal by the EULA.
Plus that money came from everybody in Eve. Giving it back seems unlikely at best. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:40:00 -
[526] - Quote
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:The closest Ive found:
5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
Could be argued either way, but Im sure CCP will not do any arguing. They will just act as they see fit.
that rule doesn't actually mean "you may not make any ISK" fyi a rogue goon |
Maddy Joringer
United Society of Xziles The Skeleton Crew
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:41:00 -
[527] - Quote
More forum comedy ... oh the Drama... you folks(goons) should start a soap opera ... funny how some goons will go to desperately be the talk of the town .. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
891
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:42:00 -
[528] - Quote
Maddy Joringer wrote:More forum comedy ... oh the Drama... you folks(goons) should start a soap opera ... funny how some goons will go to desperately be the talk of the town .. TL;DR: Bleat. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:45:00 -
[529] - Quote
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kethe wrote:It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned where The closest Ive found: 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale. Could be argued either way, but Im sure CCP will not do any arguing. They will just act as they see fit. that's a bizarre rule and one anyone with two accounts flagrantly ignores, where the hell is that in the eula |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
378
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:47:00 -
[530] - Quote
Maddy Joringer wrote:More forum comedy ... oh the Drama... you folks(goons) should start a soap opera ... funny how some goons will go to desperately be the talk of the town .. Content > Forum Tears Nothing Found |
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:47:00 -
[531] - Quote
Harrowedsmiley wrote:Hats off to the Goons, they did the research and therefore get the profits.
Much like Enron.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:48:00 -
[532] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Harrowedsmiley wrote:Hats off to the Goons, they did the research and therefore get the profits. Much like Enron. hello cipher jones i am still waiting for the date when your sub runs out, to prove you were not bluffing about saying you were unsubbing
let's show the world you're serious, and not like some "pro wrestler" that's actually a fat man in a tutu playacting |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:49:00 -
[533] - Quote
Attention it is now against the EULA to use the market to make isk |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:50:00 -
[534] - Quote
this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :) |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:51:00 -
[535] - Quote
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
Could be argued either way, but Im sure CCP will not do any arguing. They will just act as they see fit.
also i guess i've blatantly violated that rule by teaching newbies how to scam billions from pubbies, and the same pubbies who got scammed violated the rule by sending tons of isk to them
i await my ban, CCP a rogue goon |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:51:00 -
[536] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :) suprisingly most pubbies are pretty amused rather than outraged |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:55:00 -
[537] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :)
Pretty much except: 1. Your use of the word exploit is different to the meaning that CCP use it for. 2. Goons supposedly tried to pass information regarding loophole on to CCP prior to utlising current mechanics (evidenced by twitter post - claimed by aryth) 3. The tears have been pretty limited 4. Much of the thread is Goons making many posts. |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
819
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:59:00 -
[538] - Quote
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kethe wrote:It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned where The closest Ive found: 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale. Could be argued either way, but Im sure CCP will not do any arguing. They will just act as they see fit. Yah pretty idiotic analysis. Clearly you've never read a contract before... the end of that sentence is "for an Account sale". If it can be shown that is it not "for an account sale" there isn't a violation. Of course you can exchange assets and ISK in between accounts you own. You can give ships and isk to corp members. You can give billions to a scammer in Jita for no reason at all. That is all perfectly above board. I can only extrapolate from the verbiage and context of this rule that it is meant to put limits on the people who farm alts for the purpose of resale. It has no application in this situation.
More likely if action is taken against the goons the justification will be something along the lines of exploiting (I know... I know... but that's the argument they will use) and as precedent I would google the infinity gun exploit (which has been fixed) which was a problem with CCPs math (as in this case) in certain wormholes or more likely the issue they had where POS's were completing full moon goo mining cycles at down time if configured a certain way (don't know a lot about that one but that was a straight exploit and has also been fixed).
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:59:00 -
[539] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :) suprisingly most pubbies are pretty amused rather than outraged
Don't forget that your mother is literally a pubbie. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
78
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:00:00 -
[540] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :) suprisingly most pubbies are pretty amused rather than outraged
Wait till the weekend, when the faction warfare guys realize they aren't going to get everything upgraded without the goon LP slush fund and the market for LP store items hits the floor. |
|
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:02:00 -
[541] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Harrowedsmiley wrote:Hats off to the Goons, they did the research and therefore get the profits. Much like Enron.
Please explain the comparison here. I do not know where Goonswarm are listed and who is buying selling their shares and what information they are being told.
|
Vitreosity
Kevlar Research
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:03:00 -
[542] - Quote
Good work Goons, I hope they get to keep it all. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:04:00 -
[543] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :) Pretty much except: 1. Your use of the word exploit is different to the meaning that CCP use it for. 2. Goons supposedly tried to pass information regarding loophole on to CCP prior to utlising current mechanics (evidenced by twitter post - claimed by aryth) 3. The tears have been pretty limited 4. Much of the thread is Goons making many posts.
I think most people, judging by the thread see this for what it is. Playing in the sandbox. Albeit in a very hardcore way. The issue with conveying a warning to CCP is, they have to understand the warning. If you are not a market person, the warning won't even make sense. It's a hard thing to convince someone that knows nothing about what you are talking about, that something is "a big deal". Especially since the next time the update ran, there was going to be an LP supernova. |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
378
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:04:00 -
[544] - Quote
Gogela wrote:More likely if action is taken against the goons the justification will be something along the lines of exploiting (I know... I know... but that's the argument they will use) and as precedent I would google the infinity gun exploit (which has been fixed) which was a problem with CCPs math (as in this case) in certain wormholes or more likely the issue they had where POS's were completing full moon goo mining cycles at down time if configured a certain way (don't know a lot about that one but that was a straight exploit and has also been fixed). It'll probably be chalked up under some nebulous "against the spirit and intent of the game" argument, which is a fair assessment IMO, and CCP will be fully within their rights to take whatever actions they want to. In the meantime, let's enjoy this (literally) cool story, bro. Nothing Found |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:04:00 -
[545] - Quote
@Weaselior: Noted
@ ModeratedToSilence: Exploit: v. to take full advantage of. Other points noted.
|
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
819
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:07:00 -
[546] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Gogela wrote:More likely if action is taken against the goons the justification will be something along the lines of exploiting (I know... I know... but that's the argument they will use) and as precedent I would google the infinity gun exploit (which has been fixed) which was a problem with CCPs math (as in this case) in certain wormholes or more likely the issue they had where POS's were completing full moon goo mining cycles at down time if configured a certain way (don't know a lot about that one but that was a straight exploit and has also been fixed). It'll probably be chalked up under some nebulous "against the spirit and intent of the game" argument, which is a fair assessment IMO, and CCP will be fully within their rights to take whatever actions they want to. In the meantime, let's enjoy this (literally) cool story, bro. Agreed
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:09:00 -
[547] - Quote
Goons really rustled my jimmies. |
Project X5
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:10:00 -
[548] - Quote
Hello |
Rikanin
Wargasm Inc
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:11:00 -
[549] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago okay it would have been in the early hours of wed morning so lets say so a day and a half ago (or two nights) - which in english means "a couple" ... sometimes Weasoliar you are so nitpicky its positively cringworthy.
That's what trolls do, silly.
|
Dirk Magnum
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
261
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:12:00 -
[550] - Quote
I enjoy Goons.
Also I'm pretty sure that it can't be considered exploiting when it comes to profiting off of calculations that were deliberately programmed into the game, even if CCP later decides those calculations weren't achieving what they wanted. Anyone remember when in a certain kind of wormhole you could hit your own fleetmembers with tracking disruptors to give their turrets unlimited range and tracking? Pretty sure nobody got banned after that news got broken (publicly, on the forum.) "For example, if you are thinking about selling a Republic Fleet Firetail as a regular Firetail, be sure that the market volume is high on regular Firetails and that there are plenty of buy/sell contracts for Republic Fleet Firetails. [...] The players most interested in Republic Fleet Firetails are going to be players flying regular ones."-á -- PB |
|
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
378
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:15:00 -
[551] - Quote
Dirk Magnum wrote:Also I'm pretty sure that it can't be considered exploiting when it comes to profiting off of calculations that were deliberately programmed into the game, even if CCP later decides those calculations weren't achieving what they wanted. Anyone remember when in a certain kind of wormhole you could hit your own fleetmembers with tracking disruptors to give their turrets unlimited range and tracking? Pretty sure nobody got banned after that news got broken (publicly, on the forum.) I seem to recall that RNK video talking about how AHARM lost some ISK over that (did I get the tickers right?), but I don't think anyone got banned. I don't expect anyone to get banned over this either, but they might lose some assets. Nothing Found |
Stukkler Tian
Haggis Humpers
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:15:00 -
[552] - Quote
This puts me in a bit of a pickle as an amarr milita guy. I would like nothing more than to beat the tar out of the minnies (you know on the map thing not just when i undock and fight the few minmitar ships that actually have guns) yet now if i do i will help expand the cloud of smug forming over goon heads. All I can say is damn your good. On a related note im still not sure about how the mechanics work for milita, I just know it gets me fights and fun. How exactly were goons proping up the minmitar? I always assumed it was the npc target painters that were doing that. also I hope all those involved are real life milionairs because using that sort of talent and energy on a game is kind of a waste. |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:16:00 -
[553] - Quote
*chuckles* all i can say is well done goons :) you guys keep making me smile so much, no this isnt a goon alt, though sometimes i wish it was :)
good job :) |
Rikanin
Wargasm Inc
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:17:00 -
[554] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:so Jade, please tell us more about how intimately you are involved with secretive goon operations
because we'd just love to hear it :alltears:
Fixed
|
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
144
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:18:00 -
[555] - Quote
Does this mean you will pay me for the miners Ive killed now?
I keep waiting for the ISK to appear but it never does
edit: also, good effort, I wish I could bring myself to give enough of a **** about a computer game to do stuff like this but I just cant, you certainly knocked the **** out of this one, GJ. qfmjt-1 |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:20:00 -
[556] - Quote
Dirk Magnum wrote:I enjoy Goons. Also I'm pretty sure that it can't be considered exploiting when it comes to profiting off of calculations that were deliberately programmed into the game, even if CCP later decides those calculations weren't achieving what they wanted. Anyone remember when in a certain kind of wormhole you could hit your own fleetmembers with tracking disruptors to give their turrets unlimited range and tracking? Pretty sure nobody got banned after that news got broken (publicly, on the forum.)
I'm also pretty sure no one got banned or had isk confiscated when the insurance and shifting mineral prices suddenly (and, until they changed it, permanently) let people self destruct battleships for a profit, too. |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:21:00 -
[557] - Quote
Aryth wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :) Pretty much except: 1. Your use of the word exploit is different to the meaning that CCP use it for. 2. Goons supposedly tried to pass information regarding loophole on to CCP prior to utlising current mechanics (evidenced by twitter post - claimed by aryth) 3. The tears have been pretty limited 4. Much of the thread is Goons making many posts. I think most people, judging by the thread see this for what it is. Playing in the sandbox. Albeit in a very hardcore way. The issue with conveying a warning to CCP is, they have to understand the warning. If you are not a market person, the warning won't even make sense. It's a hard thing to convince someone that knows nothing about what you are talking about, that something is "a big deal". Especially since the next time the update ran, there was going to be an LP supernova.
and that's what I see it is, just another day in the life of an EVE online Capsuleer,
As for the way that you described it, indeed made it sounds as bad as it was. I think of it like the bounty system, only for FW and with LP instead of ISK,, and the ability to cheaply turn said LP into ISK, would that be a fair analogy? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:21:00 -
[558] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:Does this mean you will pay me for the miners Ive killed now? I keep waiting for the ISK to appear but it never does edit: also, good effort, I wish I could bring myself to give enough of a **** about a computer game to do stuff like this but I just cant, you certainly knocked the **** out of this one, GJ.
You're not on the list, v0v a rogue goon |
Ninlarra
Tounge punching fart boxes Late Night Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:21:00 -
[559] - Quote
Aryth wrote: Blah Blah Blah we so kewl, blah blah blah we so smrt blah blah blah
I made 12 billion isk off your work.
Thanks -----Edit-----.
Now leave my -----Edit------ militia.
Post edited. No inappropriate language, please.
ISD Tyrozan Ensign Community Communications Liaisons Interstellar Services Department |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:21:00 -
[560] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:Does this mean you will pay me for the miners Ive killed now? I keep waiting for the ISK to appear but it never does edit: also, good effort, I wish I could bring myself to give enough of a **** about a computer game to do stuff like this but I just cant, you certainly knocked the **** out of this one, GJ. send me an evemail with a link to the character's eve-kill stats and i'll look into it we cannot have people murdering miners and going unpaid |
|
Thomas Ardenvald
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:22:00 -
[561] - Quote
I haven't seen imageshack in years. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:22:00 -
[562] - Quote
Ninlarra wrote:I made 12 billion isk off your work.
cool, he made several hundred times that from his work a rogue goon |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:24:00 -
[563] - Quote
from Eula:
"3. You may not use (((your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other))) patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
what you did Goons, is a direct violation of the Eula. In my personal view that does not matter much you gained by a specific game play items at an accelerated rate when compared to ordinary game play.
If you get away with this, well, such is life :) |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:25:00 -
[564] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:from Eula:
"3. You may not use (((your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other))) patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
what you did Goons, is a direct violation of the Eula. In my personal view that does not matter much you gained by a specific game play items at an accelerated rate when compared to ordinary game play.
If you get away with this, well, such is life :)
What could be more ordinary than buying and selling items, interacting with an LP store, and blowing up spaceships? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:26:00 -
[565] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:from Eula:
"3. You may not use (((your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other))) patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
what you did Goons, is a direct violation of the Eula. In my personal view that does not matter much you gained by a specific game play items at an accelerated rate when compared to ordinary game play.
If you get away with this, well, such is life :) that bans botting, not gaining items at an accelerated rate |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:26:00 -
[566] - Quote
i gain money at an accelerated rate doing nothing by having items that will appreciate in value sitting in my hangar
i do not fear getting sreeged for this |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:26:00 -
[567] - Quote
Thomas Ardenvald wrote:I haven't seen imageshack in years. it's late at night and that's the first uploady thing that came to mind. |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:26:00 -
[568] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:Mabego Tetrimon wrote:from Eula:
"3. You may not use (((your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other))) patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
what you did Goons, is a direct violation of the Eula. In my personal view that does not matter much you gained by a specific game play items at an accelerated rate when compared to ordinary game play.
If you get away with this, well, such is life :) What could be more ordinary than buying and selling items, interacting with an LP store, and blowing up spaceships?
the rate at which you did it is not ordinary, and you and every other eve-player knows that. And thats why are you so happy at the moment. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:27:00 -
[569] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote: the rate at which you did it is not ordinary, and you and every other eve-player knows that. And thats why are you so happy at the moment.
"you may not use x, to gain y" does not ban y |
Ninlarra
Tounge punching fart boxes Late Night Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:28:00 -
[570] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Ninlarra wrote:I made 12 billion isk off your work. cool, he made several hundred times that from his work
Yup, and from the most recent newsfeed from CCP about 12 hours ago, when the investigation is over, I would have made 12 billion times what he made from his work.-----Edit-----
Post edited. No personal attacks, please.
ISD Tyrozan Ensign Community Communications Liaisons Interstellar Services Department |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:28:00 -
[571] - Quote
this is why a poor ratting bot will get you banned while scamming a dumb pubbie will not, despite one gaining isk at a much more rapid rate |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:28:00 -
[572] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:i gain money at an accelerated rate doing nothing by having items that will appreciate in value sitting in my hangar
i do not fear getting sreeged for this
its not the acceleration rate or whatever we two can think about, its just what CCP decides is appropriate.... |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:29:00 -
[573] - Quote
What the point of this therad? Goons use expolit or somthing like this, now they rich but still using rifters ?
If you rich is ok, i dont care, this wont impact on my game, well is nothing new here a lot very rich alliances, since years. |
Leon Vinisius
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:29:00 -
[574] - Quote
This makes me think of the South Park episode where the World of Warcraft character becomes really powerful. Maybe they can buy a "REAL LIFE" account with all that ISK they made. But based on the time and effort they have put into eve, i doubt they have played much of that recently, or ever. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:29:00 -
[575] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote: As for the way that you described it, indeed made it sounds as bad as it was. I think of it like the bounty system, only for FW and with LP instead of ISK,, and the ability to cheaply turn said LP into ISK, would that be a fair analogy?
It is insurance fraud + forex + market manipulation of the exchange rate. |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:31:00 -
[576] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote: As for the way that you described it, indeed made it sounds as bad as it was. I think of it like the bounty system, only for FW and with LP instead of ISK,, and the ability to cheaply turn said LP into ISK, would that be a fair analogy?
It is insurance fraud + forex + market manipulation of the exchange rate.
no its a direct violation of Eula.
"3. You may not use patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
And the propaganda here in the forum is all about not getting the ban hammer for this.
And with that i ll go and play my beloved EVE now. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:31:00 -
[577] - Quote
Leon Vinisius wrote:This makes me think of the South Park episode where the World of Warcraft character becomes really powerful. Maybe they can buy a real life account with all that ISK they made. But based on the time and effort they have put into eve, i doubt they have played much of that recently, or ever.
you know, once when advising newbies on how to make money I explained it as "you can either make money by doing work, or knowing more than everyone else. don't do work"
it seems to me a number of pubbies simply don't understand the second path to riches is an option: they see 'goons made absurd amounts of money' and assume absurd amounts of work were put into it
nope, just knowing more than everyone else |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:32:00 -
[578] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:no its a direct violation of Eula.
"3. You may not use patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
wrong
the meaning of that phrase is given by all of the things preceding it, making it clear it bans botting and automation and nothing else, the phrase "patterns of play" is a catch-all that catches things like all the things listed and only like those |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:33:00 -
[579] - Quote
Weaselior wrote: the phrase "patterns of play" is a catch-all that catches things like all the things listed and only like those
Yes, and i hope CCP will get you on the eggs on that ;) |
Ninlarra
Tounge punching fart boxes Late Night Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:34:00 -
[580] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:[quote=Leon Vinisius] nope, just knowing more than everyone else
------Edit-----
Post edited. No personal attacks, please.
ISD Tyrozan Ensign Community Communications Liaisons Interstellar Services Department |
|
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:35:00 -
[581] - Quote
If you discover a new exploit, do you get to keep the dough?
Anyways I don't see why this thread has racked up this many posts. So you punks found an exploit? Buy yourselves a cookie. The purpose of hi sec isn't to eliminate PvP but to weed out the dumb pvpers. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:35:00 -
[582] - Quote
Ninlarra wrote:[quote=Weaselior][quote=Leon Vinisius] nope, just knowing more than everyone else
-----Edit-----
i probably make enough money to buy and sell you several times
Post edited. Please, do not quote inappropriate posts.
ISD Tyrozan Ensign Community Communications Liaisons Interstellar Services Department |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:35:00 -
[583] - Quote
irl, not just in eve |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:36:00 -
[584] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote: As for the way that you described it, indeed made it sounds as bad as it was. I think of it like the bounty system, only for FW and with LP instead of ISK,, and the ability to cheaply turn said LP into ISK, would that be a fair analogy?
It is insurance fraud + forex + market manipulation of the exchange rate.
ahh I see |
Monica Lesture
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:37:00 -
[585] - Quote
I can only hope Blawrf McTaggart got a big slice of that ISK so he dont has to buy ISK from shady websides any longer like in his early EVE days |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:37:00 -
[586] - Quote
Hm maybe this therad is about CCP under blackmailing, we can, you cant because is a santbox, we laugh hard, do anything and you lose 9000 subscriptions... We win eve... Still i dont get it what a point here. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:40:00 -
[587] - Quote
Cloned S0ul wrote:Hm maybe this therad is about CCP under blackmailing, we can, you cant because is a santbox, we laugh out loud, do anything and you lose 9000 subscibtion... We win eve... Still i dont get it what a point here.
Or it's about giving CCP some free publicity for quickly addressing a problem while also sharing the story of what is possible in the sandbox from time to time? Our goals do not have to be so different from CCP's all the time. We waited to post until it was fixed. |
Ninlarra
Tounge punching fart boxes Late Night Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:40:00 -
[588] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:irl, not just in eve
Eve, yea sure why not, it means nothing.
IRL I doubt it, but I'm not going to waste my time going tit or tat with you on an obscure forum about a game a couple of hundred thousand people play. Point is, in the grand scheme of things, w/e you do is completely irrelevant, cuase your space gold will soon be gone, and your account well soon be ban hammered.
Good day space hero. I'm sure your mom thinks you're cool though.
|
Thomas Ardenvald
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:42:00 -
[589] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Thomas Ardenvald wrote:I haven't seen imageshack in years. it's late at night and that's the first uploady thing that came to mind.
Fair enough, I just thought it was an interesting choice. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:43:00 -
[590] - Quote
Ninlarra wrote:Weaselior wrote:irl, not just in eve Eve, yea sure why not, it means nothing. IRL I doubt it, but I'm not going to waste my time going tit or tat with you on an obscure forum about a game a couple of hundred thousand people play. Point is, in the grand scheme of things, w/e you do is completely irrelevant, cuase your space gold will soon be gone, and your account well soon be ban hammered. Good day space hero. I'm sure your mom thinks you're cool though. she does! |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:43:00 -
[591] - Quote
Ninlarra wrote:in the grand scheme of things, w/e you do is completely irrelevant
Late Night Alliance a rogue goon |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:44:00 -
[592] - Quote
anyone related to me is pretty cool because i'm basically genetic perfection |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:45:00 -
[593] - Quote
Ninlarra wrote:Weaselior wrote:irl, not just in eve Eve, yea sure why not, it means nothing. IRL I doubt it, but I'm not going to waste my time going tit or tat with you on an obscure forum about a game a couple of hundred thousand people play. Point is, in the grand scheme of things, w/e you do is completely irrelevant, cuase your space gold will soon be gone, and your account well soon be ban hammered. Good day space hero. I'm sure your mom thinks you're cool though. heh the "it's just a game", "you're irrelevant" and the "your mom" post, all in one. |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:47:00 -
[594] - Quote
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP"). |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:49:00 -
[595] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cloned S0ul wrote:Hm maybe this therad is about CCP under blackmailing, we can, you cant because is a santbox, we laugh out loud, do anything and you lose 9000 subscibtion... We win eve... Still i dont get it what a point here. Or it's about giving CCP some free publicity for quickly addressing a problem while also sharing the story of what is possible in the sandbox from time to time? Our goals do not have to be so different from CCP's all the time. We waited to post until it was fixed.
So you admit your ally use expolit, but while they realize they do bad dirty things still expoilt somthing with premeditation , and now they feel fear ? Well this must be a trol |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:50:00 -
[596] - Quote
Cloned S0ul wrote:Aryth wrote:Cloned S0ul wrote:Hm maybe this therad is about CCP under blackmailing, we can, you cant because is a santbox, we laugh out loud, do anything and you lose 9000 subscibtion... We win eve... Still i dont get it what a point here. Or it's about giving CCP some free publicity for quickly addressing a problem while also sharing the story of what is possible in the sandbox from time to time? Our goals do not have to be so different from CCP's all the time. We waited to post until it was fixed. So you admit your ally use expolit, but while they realize they do bad dirty things still still expoilt with premeditation , and now they feel fear ? yo could you put some more words in here it seems like you left out like a third of them this makes no sense |
Reptail
SPACE LIGHT EMPIRE
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:52:00 -
[597] - Quote
Yulay + Turtles = Invasion / Arbalest mage = EoW
but if you send me an ammount of ISK i'll double them
This is Sparta . . . . . |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:52:00 -
[598] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Cloned S0ul wrote:Aryth wrote:Cloned S0ul wrote:Hm maybe this therad is about CCP under blackmailing, we can, you cant because is a santbox, we laugh out loud, do anything and you lose 9000 subscibtion... We win eve... Still i dont get it what a point here. Or it's about giving CCP some free publicity for quickly addressing a problem while also sharing the story of what is possible in the sandbox from time to time? Our goals do not have to be so different from CCP's all the time. We waited to post until it was fixed. So you admit your ally use expolit, but while they realize they do bad dirty things still still expoilt with premeditation , and now they feel fear ? yo could you put some more words in here it seems like you left out like a third of them this makes no sense
Im sorry, me bad english, but your answer looks like you get it and you are very inteligent human, but you say you dont get it ;>
Regards :) |
Tri Vetra
Rifters
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:59:00 -
[599] - Quote
this owns |
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
121
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:01:00 -
[600] - Quote
lol nice haul.
CCP gave you any grief for it?
I am far too lazy for any of this **** XD Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:05:00 -
[601] - Quote
I believe that this is the applicable section from the Terms of Service, aka Rules of Conduct:
23. You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
Note that the general definition of a software "bug" is not limited to coding errors, but includes design errors, as well. In CCP's case, anything that CCP decides to be an "exploit" and for which they implement a code fix is considered a "bug", with regards to this section of the TOS. Also, note that CCP makes no distinction between exploiting a bug before or after it is discovered and announced by CCP - ie. exploiting a bug at any time is considered to be a no-no.
In the past, CCP has been rather strict about exploit violations. They end up costing RL money in terms of dev time to fix any damages, and it usually isn't good business to encourage players to look for and exploit similar bugs in future releases. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:06:00 -
[602] - Quote
Ninlarra wrote:Weaselior wrote:irl, not just in eve Eve, yea sure why not, it means nothing. IRL I doubt it, but I'm not going to waste my time going tit or tat with you on an obscure forum about a game a couple of hundred thousand people play. Point is, in the grand scheme of things, w/e you do is completely irrelevant, cuase your space gold will soon be gone, and your account well soon be ban hammered. Good day space hero. I'm sure your mom thinks you're cool though.
In real life I'm the King of Sweden actually (true story.)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:07:00 -
[603] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:I believe that this is the applicable section from the Terms of Service, aka Rules of Conduct: While you're the first person to realize the eula incorporates those I prefer rule 26, which basically states "we can ban anyone at any time for any reason or no reason" |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
595
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:08:00 -
[604] - Quote
"Goons are better at Internet Spaceships than I am; therefore they are cheating."
The barely literate masses of pubbie filth continue to show that whining is the only recourse they can come up with presented with our superiority. Forget trying to outperform or show appreciation for clever game play usage, let's just ***** and moan and hope CCP gets rid of them all so we can go back to being mediocre and boring. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
248
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:09:00 -
[605] - Quote
I don't consider this a bug, just a not well thought out change CCP did. No bannings or anything but wallets will be lighter On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:10:00 -
[606] - Quote
well im in fw and if this was a goon thought gravy train then it wasnt all that bad i didnt trade in data cores and **** like the goons but got very nice rewards for my minmatar lp which i missioned and plexed for cos of sytem upgrades made me some nice isk to put away ............ |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:10:00 -
[607] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:I believe that this is the applicable section from the Terms of Service, aka Rules of Conduct: While you're the first person to realize the eula incorporates those I prefer rule 26, which basically states "we can ban anyone at any time for any reason or no reason" Yeah, I'm pretty fond of that particular rule, myself. Although, I've never heard of it actually being used in the "no reason" case. |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
595
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:10:00 -
[608] - Quote
And the posts from all the internet lawyers dissecting the EULA and TOS are hilarious. Those documents are flimsy justifications that CCP can use to cover their butts. Catch-alls if you will. Your opinion on what is applicable to these activities are just that, opinions, and are utterly irrelevant.
CCP will make the final call here. Quit quoting parts of a document the average pubbie lacks the literacy or intelligence to even understand. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
CPT Plahnut
The Planetyrs
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:17:00 -
[609] - Quote
16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users
seems pretty clear from here.... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:20:00 -
[610] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:I believe that this is the applicable section from the Terms of Service, aka Rules of Conduct:
23. You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
Note that the general definition of a software "bug" is not limited to coding errors, but includes design errors, as well. In CCP's case, anything that CCP decides to be an "exploit" and for which they implement a code fix is considered a "bug", with regards to this section of the TOS. Also, note that CCP makes no distinction between exploiting a bug before or after it is discovered and announced by CCP - ie. exploiting a bug at any time is considered to be a no-no.
In the past, CCP has been rather strict about exploit violations. They end up costing RL money in terms of dev time to fix any damages, and it usually isn't good business to encourage players to look for and exploit similar bugs in future releases.
I guess they'd best go back and ban everyone who took advantage of insurance fraud, then. Or everyone who took advantage of NPC sell orders for PI. Or... |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:20:00 -
[611] - Quote
CPT Plahnut wrote:16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users
seems pretty clear from here....
Let's keep finding more EULA clauses that have nothing to do with what happened here a rogue goon |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
595
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:22:00 -
[612] - Quote
corestwo wrote: I guess they'd best go back and ban everyone who took advantage of insurance fraud, then. Or everyone who took advantage of NPC sell orders for PI. Or...
But only if they're goons.
That's the underlying thread in all these posts referencing the EULA and TOS. If the folks that pulled this off hadn't been goons there wouldn't be nearly as much jealousy. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
107
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:22:00 -
[613] - Quote
blowing up your own stuff for profit, sounds a lot like self destructing battleships for insurance payouts :D |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:22:00 -
[614] - Quote
CPT Plahnut wrote:16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users
seems pretty clear from here....
That's the "thou shalt not send a petition" clause. |
Bhock
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:24:00 -
[615] - Quote
This is a smart use of game mechanics. Perverted, like any market manipulation, but smart.
Congratulations Goons for having such good masterminds... this is not a bug exploit, as manipulating the market pricing is not a bug as it can be manipulated by anyone with enough money (and there are a lot of traders doing this daily).
So I'll stay tuned for your next clever use of the sandbox principle. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:25:00 -
[616] - Quote
Tarsus Zateki wrote:And the posts from all the internet lawyers dissecting the EULA and TOS are hilarious. Those documents are flimsy justifications that CCP can use to cover their butts. Catch-alls if you will. Your opinion on what is applicable to these activities are just that, opinions, and are utterly irrelevant.
CCP will make the final call here. Quit quoting parts of a document the average pubbie lacks the literacy or intelligence to even understand. Actually, this is also covered by Section 2D of the EULA:
CCP may establish Rules of Conduct for players accessing the System and may, but is not obligated to, monitor and take action regarding inappropriate conduct.
And, for the record, any "average pubbie" has the ability to read and understand any contract, despite the unnecessary legal mumble jumble. You certainly don't need much in the way of smarts, skills or ambition to become a lawyer - except perhaps the desire to make a lot of money as a parasite (admittedly, this does have some appeal, at times). |
SeaBassSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:28:00 -
[617] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Ninlarra wrote:Weaselior wrote:irl, not just in eve Eve, yea sure why not, it means nothing. IRL I doubt it, but I'm not going to waste my time going tit or tat with you on an obscure forum about a game a couple of hundred thousand people play. Point is, in the grand scheme of things, w/e you do is completely irrelevant, cuase your space gold will soon be gone, and your account well soon be ban hammered. Good day space hero. I'm sure your mom thinks you're cool though. heh the "it's just a game", "you're irrelevant" and the "your mom" post, all in one.
It's the holy trinity of butt-hurt. |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:30:00 -
[618] - Quote
Did we get banned for playing within the bad game mechanics yet? |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:36:00 -
[619] - Quote
Tarsus Zateki wrote:And the posts from all the internet lawyers dissecting the EULA and TOS are hilarious. Those documents are flimsy justifications that CCP can use to cover their butts. Catch-alls if you will. Your opinion on what is applicable to these activities are just that, opinions, and are utterly irrelevant.
CCP will make the final call here. Quit quoting parts of a document the average pubbie lacks the literacy or intelligence to even understand.
You broke the rules. I just point everyone who think your move was clever to that simple fact.
I am also upset that your move has the power to disrupt/break the Minni-LP-Store (If not the Amar-Minni FW at all) for the foreseable future, if CCP does not do something to reverse their mistake.
What happens now with you is in the hands of CCP, on that fact you are right.
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:39:00 -
[620] - Quote
CPT Plahnut wrote:16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users
seems pretty clear from here....
Welp no more burn Jita I guess. OH WAIT.
|
|
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
392
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:39:00 -
[621] - Quote
Oh joy. More self-congratulation by the Goons. I guess you guys haven't had enough attention this week. |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:40:00 -
[622] - Quote
CPT Plahnut wrote:16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users
seems pretty clear from here.... stop posting, your ****** posts take up bandwidth which CCP has to pay for, you're a disgusting blight on the forums and definitely a negative influence on overall enjoyment (my posts on the other hand bring enjoyment to all). According to your clause you should be banned forever and you're probably fat IRL! guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:41:00 -
[623] - Quote
I would post the amazing song 'breaking the rules' but we didn't actually break any rules so, guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:43:00 -
[624] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Oh joy. More self-congratulation by the Goons. I guess you guys haven't had enough attention this week.
I admit I was feeling a bit left out but you just filled up my meter. Thanks Bro! |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:45:00 -
[625] - Quote
This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:46:00 -
[626] - Quote
A nice summary of the majority of the pubbie posts in this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRdmAscQbDg
|
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:46:00 -
[627] - Quote
So is this another thread where goons pull off some massive heist that no one has ever pulled off before, and half the forums crawl out to meekly argue that it really wasn't that big a deal and goons really were the losers all along, despite the fact that they are now completely saturated with other peoples' isk?
I get that you guys are sick of hearing about goons, but who else is doing anything interesting? Pretty much every other thread here is either bitching about highsec ganking or the new UI. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
295
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:46:00 -
[628] - Quote
This shall be interesting... ... |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:49:00 -
[629] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:So is this another thread where goons pull off some massive heist that no one has ever pulled off before, and half the forums crawl out to meekly argue that it really wasn't that big a deal and goons really were the losers all along, despite the fact that they are now completely saturated with other peoples' isk?
The only sad part is that I was not included.
Yes, I admit jellies.
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:52:00 -
[630] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. So we've got Marlona Sky and Jade Constantine, both world renowned goon haters, saying this isn't a game exploit.
I think that pretty much settles it. |
|
Goose Formation
Subversive Synergies
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:56:00 -
[631] - Quote
Well played Goons. Stuff like this is what keeps me subbed to EvE. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
693
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:00:00 -
[632] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys.
This pretty much sums it up. . |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
219
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:01:00 -
[633] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. So we've got Marlona Sky and Jade Constantine, both world renowned goon haters, saying this isn't a game exploit. I think that pretty much settles it.
For what's it worth, I detest the goons for many reasons, but in this case, I completely agree you did not break any rules and should keep it ALL. Some of your smarter guys went to a heluva lot of effort to manipulate a game mechanic that CCP, once again, screwed up on.
Well done for the tremendous planning and execution......excuse me, I just threw up in my mouth.
|
Tesal
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:01:00 -
[634] - Quote
The irony of course is that the minerals that were exploded, a lot of it was from Pax Amarria. This is a double whammie. |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:01:00 -
[635] - Quote
**** goons guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:04:00 -
[636] - Quote
I tell you what. This game is more interesting with Goons than without. May we all live in 'interesting' times. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:05:00 -
[637] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Courthouse wrote:j hext wrote:I find it amazing that there are some people out there with this amount of intellect that would waste there time just to screw over a game, when it can be done to make REAL money!! In the real world everything about this would be extremely illegal. not to mention the real world doesn't get patches with loopholes in them.
In the US, we call them "Acts of Congress" This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Neathy
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:08:00 -
[638] - Quote
Hey Goons send me a few Billion isk! it would be like tossing pennies at the homeless guy sitting outside the gas station that and I'd use it to pew pew like crazy :3 |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
85
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:10:00 -
[639] - Quote
When someone linked me to the text of the OP here: http://www.kugutsumen.com/content.php?271-The-Final-Jewdown-The-Rest-of-the-Faction-Warfare-Story my reaction was:
1. Wow! Those goon boys keep owning EVE. Clever bastards. followed by 2. But this will ruin the economy, CCP will need to take it all back and then 3. I'll have to go to the forums and read the thread about it
Now it seems that the total sum we're talking about is "only" 5 trillion ISK, because only 5 people in EVE did it, so the long-term impact on the economy is probably negligible. And, more importantly, no ISK was generated, only transferred.
I'd say, this should have no consequences for anyone except that the loophole is closed which has apparently already been done. If this was a breach of the EULA, owning a tech moon should clearly be a bannable offense. The Invulnerability Sphere:Make mining/industrial vessels defendable, better fights for everyone! |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
382
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:14:00 -
[640] - Quote
God damn, Goons. God damn.
Can I have some of your filthy lucre for no good reason? |
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:20:00 -
[641] - Quote
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kethe wrote:It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned where The closest Ive found: 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale. Could be argued either way, but Im sure CCP will not do any arguing. They will just act as they see fit.
increasing its value for an Account sale.
The important clause of that rule. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Yewan
Kung-Fu Fighting Club
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:20:00 -
[642] - Quote
*Palmface*
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:20:00 -
[643] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:When someone linked me to the text of the OP here: http://www.kugutsumen.com/content.php?271-The-Final-Jewdown-The-Rest-of-the-Faction-Warfare-Storymy reaction was: 1. Wow! Those goon boys keep owning EVE. Clever bastards. followed by 2. But this will ruin the economy, CCP will need to take it all back and then 3. I'll have to go to the forums and read the thread about it Now it seems that the total sum we're talking about is "only" 5 trillion ISK, because only 5 people in EVE did it, so the long-term impact on the economy is probably negligible. And, more importantly, no ISK was generated, only transferred. I'd say, this should have no consequences for anyone except that the loophole is closed which has apparently already been done. If this was a breach of the EULA, owning a tech moon should clearly be a bannable offense.
This has been our stance all along. 5T is an acceptable amount that has no long term consequences for the game or the market. Especially when it's 5 people who are intimately familiar with the markets and whose best interests lie in preserving those markets for cashout. Anything past single digit trillions would have edged into long term consequences that would have to be addressed in some way. 5T 5 ways? Nah. No biggy. Of the 5t, 3T, is me. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:26:00 -
[644] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CPT Plahnut wrote:16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users
seems pretty clear from here.... That's the "thou shalt not send a petition" clause.
Pretty sure it also bans DDOSing or setting fire to the Servers (literal fire, like Arson) This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:26:00 -
[645] - Quote
in commemoration, http://evemaps.dotlan.net/outpost/DKUK-G a rogue goon |
Moonasha
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:27:00 -
[646] - Quote
Time to **** Minmatar. |
Nikodiemus
Jokulhlaup
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:32:00 -
[647] - Quote
The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.
I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^ |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:34:00 -
[648] - Quote
Nikodiemus wrote:The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.
I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^
We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering. |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:34:00 -
[649] - Quote
it was p obvious, nbd guys guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:35:00 -
[650] - Quote
(you're an idiot) guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you |
|
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:40:00 -
[651] - Quote
Advice: Next time you find a game exploit and boast about it run it past your crack legal team first:
Aryth wrote: As weGÇÖve said, in most ways, Inferno was a bust. But a throwaway blog about an obscure part of the upcoming faction warfare revamp was much more interesting than it seemed. A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams..
Aryth wrote: FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work..
Aryth wrote:In order to cash out our illicit LP..
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:41:00 -
[652] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys.
Only likely difference is our lovely forever war is getting horribly and totally nerfed :(
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
CPT Plahnut
The Planetyrs
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:46:00 -
[653] - Quote
Commit Sudoku wrote:CPT Plahnut wrote:16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users
seems pretty clear from here.... stop posting, your ****** posts take up bandwidth which CCP has to pay for, you're a disgusting blight on the forums and definitely a negative influence on overall enjoyment (my posts on the other hand bring enjoyment to all). According to your clause you should be banned forever and you're probably fat IRL!
umad?
protip: follow your own advice |
Kerensky White
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:48:00 -
[654] - Quote
This thing, simply amazing. And if the monetary gains are reversed by CCP it's literally destroying 5 trillion isk that was already circulating around the game. That's a fairly hefty economic blow, especially in a period where the market's in a pretty big flux with the mineral changes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, please! |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:48:00 -
[655] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Only likely difference is our lovely forever war is getting horribly and totally nerfed :(
it's pretty unfortunate because we really liked the idea of random dudes locking themselves into a perpetual wardec with us
i still think we should wardec a bunch of our own alt corps and request assistance after 1.1 a rogue goon |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:53:00 -
[656] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. Only likely difference is our lovely forever war is getting horribly and totally nerfed :(
The FW thing also got horribly and totally nerfed. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:53:00 -
[657] - Quote
Kerensky White wrote:This thing, simply amazing. And if the monetary gains are reversed by CCP it's literally destroying 5 trillion isk that was already circulating around the game. That's a fairly hefty economic blow, especially in a period where the market's in a pretty big flux with the mineral changes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, please!
Slightly yes. Hundreds of billions of ISK was indeed removed from EVE through the LP store sink. However, most of the gains are unrealized yet and not in ISK form. They are tied up in assets. Spread out across many separate asset classes. So it's more like long term investments. Meaning, we want the individual markets to recover as fast as possible, so that we can eventually begin selling at the highest prices possible. Hence, this post does have an ulterior motive. Revealing that the price depression in many assets was us churning ISK. Meaning, buy buy buy! |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:55:00 -
[658] - Quote
******* livid mate guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you |
CPT Plahnut
The Planetyrs
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:57:00 -
[659] - Quote
its ok, I collect goonswarm rage for a living... massive pofit |
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:58:00 -
[660] - Quote
I tip my hat to the pilots that discovered this design issue. Also I applaud their open communication and documentation of the issue.
Still in my eyes this operation used a game mechanic, flawed or not, in a way clearly not intended by the designers to generate excessive amounts of ingame assets.
These assets should be removed.
5 Trillion Isk or 5.000 Billion represent more than 4.000 carriers. Certainly not an irrelevant amount of cash.
Should the intentions of the pilots revealing this indeed prove to be honorable, a small finders fee may be in order ;)
|
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 01:58:00 -
[661] - Quote
CPT Plahnut wrote:its ok, I collect goonswarm rage for a living... massive pofit
Man, it ain't massive profit until it's so massive CCP needs time to review it's massiveness. Just sayin |
CPT Plahnut
The Planetyrs
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:01:00 -
[662] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CPT Plahnut wrote:its ok, I collect goonswarm rage for a living... massive pofit Man, it ain't massive profit until it's so massive CCP needs time to review it's massiveness. Just sayin
Their apparent lack of intellect precludes them from even understanding the magnitude on the massiveness of it |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1548
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:03:00 -
[663] - Quote
is I late?
/popcorn The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:06:00 -
[664] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. Only likely difference is our lovely forever war is getting horribly and totally nerfed :( The FW thing also got horribly and totally nerfed.
That bit I don't quite understand - ie exactly how it was possible to stop this happening again ... what was done?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Della Monk
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:11:00 -
[665] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:13:00 -
[666] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. Only likely difference is our lovely forever war is getting horribly and totally nerfed :( The FW thing also got horribly and totally nerfed. That bit I don't quite understand - ie exactly how it was possible to stop this happening again ... what was done?
Short term they reverted our price changes and probably turned the price updater off as well. Long term? I'm sure they'll think of something. |
MidnightWyvern
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:15:00 -
[667] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mikelii wrote:Darius Johnson for CEO.
Never not ******* goons. I genuinely ell oh elled at this because come on, the whole thing is pretty ******* funny PLEASE stop writing lol as words. Please. It honestly hurts. A lot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eaUaJUhTZfw#t=148s An excellent example of why pod killmails are the best feature to be implemented in EVE Online since warping at zero. |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:28:00 -
[668] - Quote
Anyone hoping to assist CCP in fixing this game is naive and foolish.
You misunderstand how much contempt they hold you in. It's easy to see why you might not believe that yet; it makes no sense. It is illogical and insane;
But you must remember that Iceland is a genetic heterotopia (a place where nothing changes) and they intend to keep it that way.
Offering advice or comfort to them is the same as a crackhead offering to act as a lifecoach for a curbside crack dealer, improbable and laughable.
CCP will never fix these problems, and they will continue to make them forever / with you paying for them / because they are Icelanders and they want you to pay for their lifestyles.
They are smart and clever.
They have fancy furniture and they put tiny screens on little flat pieces of metal.
Their sexual partners are dazzlingly white and elf like. They eat endangered species with contempt because someone from a foreign country asked them not to.
They fixed their national debt crisis by ignoring it and refusing to pay.
They treat your favorite MMO in exactly the same way.
So, The Great Quisling who was once one of you has been sent out to fix the problem: for it can only be an exploit.
And was declared so because who amongst them would admit that it was yet another colossal internal screw up?
And in this sandbox you may very well lose your hard earned loot and even your accounts, because it does not, once again, suit them to pay, or even take responsibility for their mistakes.
So I say to you: Remember the lesson of Kugu. Helping them only earns their contempt. Standing on the CSM sets you as an enemy amongst them.
Treat them as the enemy. Let your braying, harsh laughter be the true joy you gain from this game. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:30:00 -
[669] - Quote
...what the heck did I just read? |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:31:00 -
[670] - Quote
You guys need to ask yourself one question; if it did not say 'Goonswarm Federation' under the alliance name, would you still be chanting exploit?
I'll admit I am not the biggest fan of goons, but a few guys decided to play Spreadsheets-Online on total hell death mode and came out on top. It is no different than trying to figure out what item gives the best LP to ISK conversion when you are at the LP store after grinding some level 4 missions. Except on a much, much larger scale. |
|
Della Monk
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:32:00 -
[671] - Quote
Apparently Iceland is home to the Fair Folk, who do not broker the words of man |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:36:00 -
[672] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:You guys need to ask yourself one question; if it did not say 'Goonswarm Federation' under the alliance name, would you still be chanting exploit?
the only people chanting exploit are the usual "ra ra goons" npc alts, everyone else is just slow-clapping and moving on a rogue goon |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:38:00 -
[673] - Quote
i move that the relatively low amount of gnashing of teeth in this thread is a ~CoNspIrAcY~ to avoid enabling us with said gnashing of teeth
your move a rogue goon |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:41:00 -
[674] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:the only people chanting exploit are the usual "ra ra goons" npc alts, everyone else is just slow-clapping and moving on
The OP used that term himself, feel free to go check. I'll wait.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Tenchi Sal
Dust Bunnies 514
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:41:00 -
[675] - Quote
i wonder if ccp will break out the old ban hammer and start playing wack-a-mole |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:42:00 -
[676] - Quote
Here, I'll make it easy for you:
gulftobay wrote:Advice: Next time you find a game exploit and boast about it run it past your crack legal team first: Aryth wrote: As weGÇÖve said, in most ways, Inferno was a bust. But a throwaway blog about an obscure part of the upcoming faction warfare revamp was much more interesting than it seemed. A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams..
Aryth wrote: FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work..
Aryth wrote:In order to cash out our illicit LP..
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:43:00 -
[677] - Quote
Um we were not read our Space Miranda rights so none of that is eligible testimony |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
219
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:46:00 -
[678] - Quote
I have one question, which I know will never be answered: Will someone get fired over this latest screw-up? I mean, the messes that CCP has created in the past 3 months are mounting.
Is ANYONE ever held accountable?
|
CPT Plahnut
The Planetyrs
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:48:00 -
[679] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I have one question, which I know will never be answered: Will someone get fired over this latest screw-up? I mean, the messes that CCP has created in the past 3 months are mounting.
Is ANYONE ever held accountable?
I don't know, ask about that guy who blew up about BoB being dev fed, and the insuent cover-up, and the fact that they whiteashed the whole thing.
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:49:00 -
[680] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I have one question, which I know will never be answered: Will someone get fired over this latest screw-up? I mean, the messes that CCP has created in the past 3 months are mounting.
Is ANYONE ever held accountable?
This isn't the worst thing ever to occur in EVE by a longshot so no as much as I and the Jewbal deride CCP this is nothing anyone should get fired over. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:50:00 -
[681] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Here, I'll make it easy for you:
please continue to cherry-pick quotes to make yourself look right, it suits you a rogue goon |
Joben Andadare
Lightyears From Normal
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:54:00 -
[682] - Quote
What's with all the talk about people losing their jobs over this? Was it an oversight by the devs/coders in game mechanics, sure, is it worth someone losing a 'real world job' over? Not so much. |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 02:59:00 -
[683] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Here, I'll make it easy for you: please continue to cherry-pick quotes to make yourself look right, it suits you
Yeah, I'm not a fan of cherry-picking either.
However, the quotations were not out of context and if you like I will repost in entirity and highlight the terms exploit/bug/illicit again.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:06:00 -
[684] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Here, I'll make it easy for you: please continue to cherry-pick quotes to make yourself look right, it suits you
We are getting cherry colored suits for Incarna? Hope it does not cost a lot of Aurum. |
Exakt Kla'erlepi
Subach-Innes Engineering
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:08:00 -
[685] - Quote
Quote:An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] It is often colloquially abbreviated sploit. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]
Ok, so here is the definition of Exploit in a video game. Now let's see what the Goons have said:
1. As weGÇÖve said, in most ways, Inferno was a bust. But a throwaway blog about an obscure part of the upcoming faction warfare revamp was much more interesting than it seemed. A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
Right there, they are admitting that they may have found a way to use the game mechanics to their advantage. Sure it was theoretical, but they have put it in practice.
2. The revamp to Faction Warfare in Inferno was the single biggest mistake CCP has ever made. It was bigger than guidance systems, which merely made us a couple of trillion isk. It was certainly bigger than deleting boot.ini, which merely cost CCP some bad press. It was possibly even bigger than Incarna, a potentially game ruining GÇÿexpansionGÇÖ *** cash grab. Simply put, Inferno was released with a way to destroy the value of missions.
Again they are clearly stating that they may have found an exploit, still theoretical at this point, since there is no admission of using it.
3. The original theory came about as many of the theories in the Jewbal do: Aryth wondering what the implications of X may be if we did Y. Every theory in the collective is always vetted, and so, Mynnna went to work on a super spreadsheet. This sheet would end up breaking down every niche of FW into its components and checking them for leaks; much like everything in Spreadsheets Online, once created, the sheet had to be tested via running the numbers countless times. Luckily, they added up.
Here they are clearly stating that they ran simulations and that they did in fact show signs of an exploit.
4. When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the playerGÇÖs kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.
Here they clearly show that the initial setup of the game mechanics for FW in a devblog, it also clearly states that CCP thought it would prevent manipulation, therefore stating the way it was intended to work.
5. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards.
Here the Goons clearly state that the bug was in fact real once put to test in a live environment and that they used it to double their gains.
6. CCP reacted quickly and patched this out, but the damage was done (not that it really mattered since it would merely have delayed the inevitable); the cabal had our GÇ£seedGÇ¥ LP. From here on out, the next step was to manipulate the outcome of Faction Warfare to dictate the tier level of the Minmatar faction.
Now here we can see that CCP fixed it to a point where they thought it would work as intended. The Goons also stated that with the gain they have made, without reprimands following, they were able to manipulate the system of FW.
7. The GÇ£costGÇ¥ in this equation was CCPGÇÖs own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break GÇö CCPGÇÖs item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof.
Here they are stating exactly what they did and how to use it to their advantages. By also stating they could "Generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost" is another sign that it is an exploit, that the system wasn't working as intended.
8. At this point, we had a problem: we still had not puzzled out CCPGÇÖs pricing update mechanics formula. Fortunately, we caught a break. A person tasked to figure out the CCP formula was able to come up with a fair guess at the CCP Price of a given item GÇô a three month EVE wide moving average.
Here we can see that they had found how CCP fixed it and therefore acknowledging that the exploit was still possible.
TO BE CONTINUED IN A SECOND POST
|
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:12:00 -
[686] - Quote
If only someone had told CCP that it was a bad idea to make FW about ISK and mercenaries.
Surely CCP would have listened if they had been told they where makign a mistake.
SURELY !!! |
Lost InCogneto
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:12:00 -
[687] - Quote
I say congratulations to goons for showing how CCP ruined Faction Wars wholeistic instead of listening to players wanting fixes to support pvp and faction war lore.
Good job - shame CCP |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:14:00 -
[688] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:If only someone had told CCP that it was a bad idea to make FW about ISK and mercenaries.
Surely CCP would have listened if they had been told they where makign a mistake.
SURELY !!!
Yeah if only those people had just carried on and shown via actions what they had been warning CCP about. Oh wait they did... |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:17:00 -
[689] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal. What's a 'Jewbal'?
http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
McOboe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
94
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:19:00 -
[690] - Quote
Upon first reading the initial posts, I was a bit irritated. But now, I see what they've done- it's like they drew a giant "X" on a giant problem for CCP to solve. An exploitable mechanic of this size needed to be highlighted. I am glad though that they ceased pumping up the Minnies in FW. I was about to give up on Amarr with my alt. |
|
Nikodiemus
Jokulhlaup
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:19:00 -
[691] - Quote
Exakt Kla'erlepi wrote:Quote:An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] It is often colloquially abbreviated sploit. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2] Ok, so here is the definition of Exploit in a video game. Now let's see what the Goons have said: 1. As weGÇÖve said, in most ways, Inferno was a bust. But a throwaway blog about an obscure part of the upcoming faction warfare revamp was much more interesting than it seemed. A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Right there, they are admitting that they may have found a way to use the game mechanics to their advantage. Sure it was theoretical, but they have put it in practice. 2. The revamp to Faction Warfare in Inferno was the single biggest mistake CCP has ever made. It was bigger than guidance systems, which merely made us a couple of trillion isk. It was certainly bigger than deleting boot.ini, which merely cost CCP some bad press. It was possibly even bigger than Incarna, a potentially game ruining GÇÿexpansionGÇÖ *** cash grab. Simply put, Inferno was released with a way to destroy the value of missions. Again they are clearly stating that they may have found an exploit, still theoretical at this point, since there is no admission of using it. 3. The original theory came about as many of the theories in the Jewbal do: Aryth wondering what the implications of X may be if we did Y. Every theory in the collective is always vetted, and so, Mynnna went to work on a super spreadsheet. This sheet would end up breaking down every niche of FW into its components and checking them for leaks; much like everything in Spreadsheets Online, once created, the sheet had to be tested via running the numbers countless times. Luckily, they added up.Here they are clearly stating that they ran simulations and that they did in fact show signs of an exploit. 4. When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the playerGÇÖs kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off. Here they clearly show that the initial setup of the game mechanics for FW in a devblog, it also clearly states that CCP thought it would prevent manipulation, therefore stating the way it was intended to work. 5. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. Here the Goons clearly state that the bug was in fact real once put to test in a live environment and that they used it to double their gains. 6. CCP reacted quickly and patched this out, but the damage was done (not that it really mattered since it would merely have delayed the inevitable); the cabal had our GÇ£seedGÇ¥ LP. From here on out, the next step was to manipulate the outcome of Faction Warfare to dictate the tier level of the Minmatar faction. Now here we can see that CCP fixed it to a point where they thought it would work as intended. The Goons also stated that with the gain they have made, without reprimands following, they were able to manipulate the system of FW. 7. The GÇ£costGÇ¥ in this equation was CCPGÇÖs own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break GÇö CCPGÇÖs item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof.Here they are stating exactly what they did and how to use it to their advantages. By also stating they could "Generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost" is another sign that it is an exploit, that the system wasn't working as intended. 8. At this point, we had a problem: we still had not puzzled out CCPGÇÖs pricing update mechanics formula. Fortunately, we caught a break. A person tasked to figure out the CCP formula was able to come up with a fair guess at the CCP Price of a given item GÇô a three month EVE wide moving average. Here we can see that they had found how CCP fixed it and therefore acknowledging that the exploit was still possible. TO BE CONTINUED IN A SECOND POST
Your wall of text is a bust. Pretty numbers and spaces may seem informative and logical to the masses but their facts don't hold water. Nice try though. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:19:00 -
[692] - Quote
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:Aryth wrote:Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal. What's a 'Jewbal'? a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion |
Ituhata Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
333
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:20:00 -
[693] - Quote
35 pages in one day? My scroll finger got carpal tunnel syndrome. So close... |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:21:00 -
[694] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:Aryth wrote:Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal. What's a 'Jewbal'? a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion So Jew-bashing is OK on the EVE forums? http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Cordially Yours
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:22:00 -
[695] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:Aryth wrote:Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal. What's a 'Jewbal'? a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion Line crossed. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:22:00 -
[696] - Quote
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:Weaselior wrote:Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:Aryth wrote:Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal. What's a 'Jewbal'? a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion So Jew-bashing is OK on the EVE forums?
see my post about cherry-picking a rogue goon |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:24:00 -
[697] - Quote
Nikodiemus wrote:Your wall of text is a bust. Pretty numbers and spaces may seem informative and logical to the masses but their facts don't hold water. Nice try though.
Umm yeah, first complain not enough references, and then complain when offered?
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:24:00 -
[698] - Quote
Well, apparently this thread has gone on for 35 pages and no action was taken.
It must not be against the rules to engage in Jew-bashing on the EVE forums. http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:26:00 -
[699] - Quote
Aryth wrote:If you somehow did find a way, CCP is watching and will probably take action against anyone doing it in the future. But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down. **scratches head** http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:27:00 -
[700] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:This isn't the worst thing ever to occur in EVE by a longshot so no as much as I and the Jewbal deride CCP this is nothing anyone should get fired over. **scratches head again**
http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
|
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:28:00 -
[701] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:We spent ISK to make LP and while we(the Jewbal) will net out way ahead this was actually a huge ISK sink for EVE due to LP store costs and transaction fees. ?? http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:28:00 -
[702] - Quote
using the word "Jew" is jew bashing
good to know a rogue goon |
Nikodiemus
Jokulhlaup
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:29:00 -
[703] - Quote
McOboe wrote:Upon first reading the initial posts, I was a bit irritated. But now, I see what they've done- it's like they drew a giant "X" on a giant problem for CCP to solve. An exploitable mechanic of this size needed to be highlighted. I am glad though that they ceased pumping up the Minnies in FW. I was about to give up on Amarr with my alt.
Once this exploit has been highlighted, what then is your aftergame? The damage has been done and it has the potential for serious economic damage.
The problem isn't that some goonies made money manipulating the mechanics CCP created; the problem is that the player base does not know what the economy will be like in EVE for future expansions. The worst thing will be players freezing their activity and trusting no one or no thing every time an expansion is announced.
Along with the market manipulation that will occur every time, CCP needs to change their mindset about the 'sandbox', from anarchist to responsible stakeholder. The NPC and CCP need to take the initiative of a real and responsible government and provide the 'Sandbox' with simple regulations and accountable regulators.
The sandbox fails when there is not a parent or lifesaver telling us we are drowning our children/players. |
Cordially Yours
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:29:00 -
[704] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:using the word "Jew" is jew bashing
good to know don't play stupid. referencing the protocols of the elders of zion is anti semitism of the worst sort. |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:29:00 -
[705] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Posting in a thread where Jade's so dumb he literally made 1/100 of what the jewbal made based solely on his huge effort eve online gaming rewards and not intelligent use of game mechanics. **scratches head yet again** http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:30:00 -
[706] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:No no, you keep doing your job. You're quite good at it. On the whole, you probably generate just as many tears as the jewbal, they're just more spread out. **??** http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Exakt Kla'erlepi
Subach-Innes Engineering
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:31:00 -
[707] - Quote
CONTINUED FROM MY FIRST POST:
9. To confirm this, we ran several tests. We would manipulate the price of an item with a 90 day volume of roughly 5-10 items across Eve, meaning the shittiest, worst 5% bonus to electronic attack ship damage implant we could find.(this is not the actual item, the actual item was even more worthless) Specifically, we would cycle billions of ISK worth of orders to ourselves and create massive volume in said item. CCP duly confirmed their pricing update scriptGÇÖs existence by taking a couple of Fridays to launch the CCP Value of said implants to all time highs. The result was not perfect, but it was more than sufficient to do what was needed.
Here it is clearly stated that the Goons conducted tests and found the results not perfect but still viable to move toward their goal(s).
10. From here, it was childGÇÖs play to locate a completely ******, unused item from the FW Loyalty store and jack up the CCP price by repeatedly buying the product at inflated prices in some untraveled galactic shithole.
Here we can clearly see how they proceeded at this point.
11. Once prices updated, we were able to purchase LP at 81 ISK / LP.
Here we can see the result they have achieved
12. You can see evidence of our dark work throughout the economy in Eve. Open up the market graphs in Jita and take a look at any given implant. Every single one of them will be going off a cliff because we were routinely slamming thousands into buys. At 81 ISK per LP, practically any price is a profit. Of course, we didnGÇÖt stop at implants; if youGÇÖre holding Mechanical Engineering or Minmatar Starship Engineering datacores, you have our condolences as we roll around in literal Scrooge McDuck towers full of your isk. If we were just a little bit prone to hitting and running, everything related to FW LP would be in the gutter. Fortunately, we are patient and beatific overlords. Numerous publord superstars have taken massive losses as we slam buys to nothing, then erect gigantic, unassailable walls of sells at a price that ensures that any stock held by anyone is without value. This last part has mostly been done because we can.
Here they are clearly standing that the exploit that they have used can actually be proven by actual facts. They are even stating that they could abuse the exploit because they felt "they could do so".
13. The goal was to make a bit of profit. and figure out how to fix it long term. CCP was informed and they moved quickly to address the issue. The party came to an immediate end after the T5 cashout occured. So this is over, and you will no longer be able to do this. If you somehow did find a way, CCP is watching and will probably take action against anyone doing it in the future. But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down.
Here they are stating that it was for the "greater good". They are stating that CCP has fixed it and also clearly state that nobody else will be able to do so again and that they actually profit from it and that now CCP is closely watching the FW system and that if anyone else finds an exploit, there will be consequences. The closing statement in this paragraph also clearly points how just how much they have profited from it.
CONCLUSION: There is a multitude of facts that shows that the participants of this event knew beforehand of a possible exploit, that they have run simulations stating it was in fact a very plausible exploit, that they have verified it within the live environment of TQ, then exploited it even if they have reported the bug to CCP, that they intentionally tried to break it again after the first fix and that they again profited from it, they clearly state that the manipulated the system for their own goal(s) and that now CCP is watching everybody else who could find an exploit in the FW and promptly report it and not abuse and may face consequences.
Now, I work in the game industry and I know that this couldn't necessarily be caught by the QA team, they aren't enough members and no game devs and publishers has 10,000 testers. The issue here is that the exploit of the game mechanics was found before the launch of Inferno, that the Goons didn't warn CCP before the launch, where CCP could have run a simulation just like the Goons did and seen the flaw and fixed it to a more manageable point. Now also, this is not emergent gameplay it is using a game mechanic that did not work as intended therefore an exploit. As per the rules of CCP on exploits, I really hope they uphold the rules, some may face bans and other reprimands. |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:31:00 -
[708] - Quote
I'm gay. |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:31:00 -
[709] - Quote
Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something?
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:31:00 -
[710] - Quote
Nikodiemus wrote:McOboe wrote:Upon first reading the initial posts, I was a bit irritated. But now, I see what they've done- it's like they drew a giant "X" on a giant problem for CCP to solve. An exploitable mechanic of this size needed to be highlighted. I am glad though that they ceased pumping up the Minnies in FW. I was about to give up on Amarr with my alt. Once this exploit has been highlighted, what then is your aftergame? The damage has been done and it has the potential for serious economic damage. The problem isn't that some goonies made money manipulating the mechanics CCP created; the problem is that the player base does not know what the economy will be like in EVE for future expansions. The worst thing will be players freezing their activity and trusting no one or no thing every time an expansion is announced. Along with the market manipulation that will occur every time, CCP needs to change their mindset about the 'sandbox', from anarchist to responsible stakeholder. The NPC and CCP need to take the initiative of a real and responsible government and provide the 'Sandbox' with simple regulations and accountable regulators. The sandbox fails when there is not a parent or lifesaver telling us we are drowning our children/players.
EVE is a scary place |
|
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:32:00 -
[711] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:i mean, if sreegs finds the jewbal in unfortunate error of breaking the rules/using an exploit and doing so with the express intent of making money, one might say that jade did the same thing (although to a lesser degree) when he found the twitter message some two days ago. .... http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:32:00 -
[712] - Quote
Cordially Yours wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:using the word "Jew" is jew bashing
good to know don't play stupid. referencing the protocols of the elders of zion is anti semitism of the worst sort. What's a "jew haul"? http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:33:00 -
[713] - Quote
Exakt Kla'erlepi wrote:words
Were people banned for killing JFs with triple-web Vindicators before it was announced as an exploit? a rogue goon |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:34:00 -
[714] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something?
no, it was going more "our way" until the middle school day ended somewhere a rogue goon |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:34:00 -
[715] - Quote
The Invisible Hand of the market is reaching for your wallet RIGHT NOW |
Exakt Kla'erlepi
Subach-Innes Engineering
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:38:00 -
[716] - Quote
Now, yes the Goons did report it (late in my opinion), a ban may be a bit extreme, but there should some kind of reprimands/penalties. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:38:00 -
[717] - Quote
Hrothgar Nilsson please stop making antisemitic comments a rogue goon |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:39:00 -
[718] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something? no, it was going more "our way" until the middle school day ended somewhere
Ad hominem, now you're clutching at straws.
So, back to exploits..
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:40:00 -
[719] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Ad hominem, now you're clutching at straws.
So, back to exploits..
not really, it's just you and that Hrothgar guy cherry-picking every post to try to point out "antisemitism" or "exploits"
guess what, determining whether they were indeed exploiting is up to CCP and their investigation is based on more than forum posts a rogue goon |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:40:00 -
[720] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Hrothgar Nilsson please stop making antisemitic comments I'm making quotations of the use anti-Semitic terminology by members of your alliance.
I am Jewish.
Everything else was tl;dr. But the anti-Semetic "Jewbal", "Jew haul", "Jew gold" statements stuck out like a sore thumb.
It find it curious that making anti-Semitic statements on the EVE forums is OK with CCP, as they haven't said a whisper with regards to them.
This thread has been posted on by a CCP Dev, who no doubt saw the numerous anti-Semitic terms being used, and turned a blind eye. http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:40:00 -
[721] - Quote
Still waiting for the exploit to be pointed out |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:40:00 -
[722] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something? no, it was going more "our way" until the middle school day ended somewhere Ad hominem, now you're clutching at straws. So, back to exploits.. oh no when posting on a forum he did not adhere to strict rules of logical proof, which is a thing he was trying to do instead of mock a bad poster |
Exakt Kla'erlepi
Subach-Innes Engineering
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:44:00 -
[723] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:
guess what, determining whether they were indeed exploiting is up to CCP and their investigation is based on more than forum posts
True, I don't have the raw data and numbers, but I do believe I did show how well every word and sentences in a public statement can show proofs of using an exploit in this case. Sadly, anyway that CCP may slice it, it may just look bad.
In any case we will see tears from a bunch of people from different roles/factions/corps/alliances. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:45:00 -
[724] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Nikodiemus wrote:The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.
I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^ We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering.
They won't remember, though, since it doesn't fit into the narrative of goons actively trying to destroy Eve.
They never remember the fact that goons got supercaps nerfed, despite the fact that we have dozens and they were a "Win Game" button. Goon higher ups profiting madly off of Tech are actively trying to get that nerfed too, so other corps can get rich off of it too, but of course, they don't think about that either. Nearly every situation like this has goons at the forefront warning CCP, but again, no one care.
Goons are intent on destroying Eve, contrary evidence be damned. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:46:00 -
[725] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. Only likely difference is our lovely forever war is getting horribly and totally nerfed :(
No it isn't. War dec mechanics changing or not, in null sec, you don't need a wardec to come attack us.
Bring your allies and let's have us a war. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Apo Lyptica
nul-li-fy RED.OverLord
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:49:00 -
[726] - Quote
OMG BURGER KING HAS BACON SUNDAYS ERRREY BUDDY GO BUY ONE |
Protheroe
UMEC
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:50:00 -
[727] - Quote
I think it's worth noting that back when the mechanics that made this possible were first announced, there were several responses to the Dev Blog that pointed out that this could happen. There were developer replies throughout that thread, and some issues that were raised were acted on. This one apparently was not for some reason, despite the potential seriousness of it. One could perhaps draw the conclusion from that that CCP didn't regard this as an issue and thought it would be fair play.
Clearly their reaction now shows that they do not think it's fair play, but they can't claim that this wasn't on their radar without acknowledging that they ignored the player feedback that they asked for.
Here are some of the relevant replies from early May, nearly two weeks before Inferno was deployed:
Protheroe wrote:I also agree that the LP payout formula for ship kills looks like it could potentially be exploitable at the moment, though that depends on how the terms in the formula are calculated, which isn't explained in the blog.
As Kusum Fawn said, if the 'Market Value' term for fitted and transported items is based on averages of actual market values, then it would be possible to pick some low value, rarely traded item, purchase all the available units in every region (not difficult for a cheap unpopular item), relist them all at massively inflated prices, wait for the new price to begin affecting the Market Average (perhaps trading the item a few times between alts), and then put the item on a ship in a rival faction and destroy it repeatedly to farm LP. If this kind of trick would require large amounts of ISK and organisation then it could perhaps be ignored, but if the formula applies to the market value of every item in the game then this would be trivially easy to do. The problem could be lessened by making the formula more opaque or introducing complicated terms to exclude outlier prices, but as long as the price is in some way tied to actual market values and covers a broad range of items, there will inevitably be holes in it and people will find a way to exploit them. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:55:00 -
[728] - Quote
Cordially Yours wrote:Weaselior wrote:Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:Aryth wrote:Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal. What's a 'Jewbal'? a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion Line crossed.
Oh ****, Weaselior, you pissed off Cordially Yours. It is most certain on now. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:57:00 -
[729] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Still waiting for the exploit to be pointed out
The exploit was goons playing the game in a way that doesn't involve whining to CCP to alter game mechanics in our favor. Same as always. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
R0me0 Charl1e
Easy A Industries
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:59:00 -
[730] - Quote
Finally caught up with this thread and all I can say is good job Goonswarm!
Now it's back to beta testing DUST 514. |
|
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:03:00 -
[731] - Quote
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Quaaid
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:05:00 -
[732] - Quote
Posting my jelly hate.
Puts my sub-billion, lonesome endeavors in perspective. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:06:00 -
[733] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
banning NPC corps from the forums a rogue goon |
Incindir Mauser
EVE University Ivy League
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:06:00 -
[734] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Aryth wrote:Nikodiemus wrote:The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.
I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^ We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering. They won't remember, though, since it doesn't fit into the narrative of goons actively trying to destroy Eve. They never remember the fact that goons got supercaps nerfed, despite the fact that we have dozens and they were a "Win Game" button. Goon higher ups profiting madly off of Tech are actively trying to get that nerfed too, so other corps can get rich off of it too, but of course, they don't think about that either. Nearly every situation like this has goons at the forefront warning CCP, but again, no one care. Goons are intent on destroying Eve, contrary evidence be damned.
I like to think of the Goons as exuberant playtesters.
"Hey. Hey CCP. This thing over here might be _REALLY_ broken." say the Goons
"Ignore the man behind the curtain." says CCP
"Just saying bro." says the Goons
*Goons massively exploit broken mechanic they warned CCP about*
"Hey we told you so!" ~ Goons laughing as they roll in ISK
"That's a bad naughty Goon! Naughty! ... Bad Goon! Zimmer! Go to your room!", says CCP.
"It's Mittens! He's got a Kung Fu grip on CCP's nether region peculiars!", salivate the Mad Foil Hatters. ( That'd be a nice corp name. I'll have to snag that.)
In the end something broken gets fixed, the conspiracy nuts get some well needed and cathartic distress, and Goons roll in yet more money with which to provide the rest of us with "Emergent Gameplay".
Win-win-win? |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:09:00 -
[735] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:Posting my jelly hate.
Puts my sub-billion, lonesome endeavors in perspective.
We applaud all efforts, no matter how small, to defraud the common pubbie of his isk. |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:10:00 -
[736] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
banning NPC corps from the forums
Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours.
I'd recommend taking a break and letting some damage control take place here, from what I've seen your posts have only dug a bigger hole to dig out from for your alliance.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Doctor Benway Kado
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:11:00 -
[737] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Nothing?
It's market manipulation, combined with currency exchange, combined with insurance fraud. None of these things by themselves are exploits. Combined together... they're still not exploits. If every intermediate action is legal, the final result is also legal. Moreover, while five trillion is a lot on a personal level, in the long run the effect of this will be smoothed out within a month or two. Twenty, thirty trillion isk? That would be a different story. But in the end, FW was changed to prevent this from happening, thanks to the very people who pulled it off. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:12:00 -
[738] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
banning NPC corps from the forums Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours. I'd recommend taking a break and letting some damage control take place here, from what I've seen your posts have only dug a bigger hole to dig out from for your alliance. Your money and isk is just as good
Your opinions however... |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:15:00 -
[739] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours.
I plex my accounts so it's anywhere from $17.95 a month or higher if the plex were originally purchased in GBP/EUR
so yes a rogue goon |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:23:00 -
[740] - Quote
Soooooooooooooooo what to do with all that money?
Might I suggest going to all the market hubs and buying all the materials, then start building a load of titans.
Granted the training time would probably be pretty brutal for every 2 month old character who just got into their first drake blob. It'd be easier to just tell all your carrier pilots to train Fighters 5 and get a pile of Nyxes.
Apo Lyptica wrote:OMG BURGER KING HAS BACON SUNDAYS ERRREY BUDDY GO BUY ONE You can't mix salty and sugary flavors that's just gross. I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544 |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1101
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:25:00 -
[741] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours. I plex my accounts so it's anywhere from $17.95 a month or higher if the plex were originally purchased in GBP/EUR so yes How many accounts do you plex? I assume the other poster has 1 account subbed. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:26:00 -
[742] - Quote
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Nothing? It's market manipulation, combined with currency exchange, combined with insurance fraud. None of these things by themselves are exploits. Combined together... they're still not exploits. If every intermediate action is legal, the final result is also legal. Moreover, while five trillion is a lot on a personal level, in the long run the effect of this will be smoothed out within a month or two. Twenty, thirty trillion isk? That would be a different story. But in the end, FW was changed to prevent this from happening, thanks to the very people who pulled it off.
Which is funny cause ANYTHING YOU DO IN THE GAME can be under this umbrella and CCP cant do jack. Its funny how theyve lost control of their own game BY THEIR OWN RULES
lol
Hell, if I was them, Id be sitting back and laughing my ass off too. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:30:00 -
[743] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:How many accounts do you plex? I assume the other poster has 1 account subbed. three a rogue goon |
Nikodiemus
Jokulhlaup
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:31:00 -
[744] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Still waiting for the exploit to be pointed out The exploit was goons playing the game in a way that doesn't involve whining to CCP to alter game mechanics in our favor. Same as always.
You are really a terrible propagandist and give a good name to sub-par posters - even from Goon. Try harder drone. |
Degren
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1429
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:31:00 -
[745] - Quote
"BabyDegren" wrote:Probably not the place to say it, and I know I'll catch heat for it...but god damn I love Goonfleet.
My second post on the illustrious Eve-O forums, during the time of the ice interdiction.
This is on another level entirely. FUCKIN LU' YOU, DAWGS You don't know. -á||| You really-ádon't know. |
Samej Arkanus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:33:00 -
[746] - Quote
Confirming Aryth is the reincarnation of Dr. James Moriarty. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
427
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:36:00 -
[747] - Quote
So gives a ****? In irae, veritas. |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:37:00 -
[748] - Quote
I'm all for a reasonable discussion of the broken mechanics that were Inferno.
However, the original OP's boasts regarding exploits / bugs / illicit LP seem hard to ignore.
An above poster's comments regarding the future isk effect is worth consideration, titans for everybody in gsf?
I'm not necessarily looking for bans on anybody. But the cumulative effect of this seems out of kilter with intended game mechanics without doing something and I think a proactive approach is a viable alternative.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
Mikelii
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:38:00 -
[749] - Quote
Richard Disturned follows his own rules. He's a man on the edge. He's going to be off this case if he doesn't calm down soon! We can't have any mad-dog posters in goonswarm. |
RuckaLucka Ali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:45:00 -
[750] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
banning NPC corps from the forums Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours. I'd recommend taking a break and letting some damage control take place here, from what I've seen your posts have only dug a bigger hole to dig out from for your alliance.
ruining your $14.95 a month is why we play, 70% of goons dont even pay a sub fee why should we care about yours |
|
PAJB666
True Power Team Out of Sight.
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:00:00 -
[751] - Quote
RuckaLucka Ali wrote: ruining your $14.95 a month is why we play, 70% of goons dont even pay a sub fee why should we care about yours
There's one golden rule to farting in the theatre. Don`t do it too loud. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1101
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:04:00 -
[752] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:An above poster's comments regarding the future isk effect is worth consideration, titans for everybody in gsf? Wondering about what happens when goons start blobbing titans, like everything else they start massing? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Perkin Warbeck
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:15:00 -
[753] - Quote
OP.
You had me at hello..... |
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:16:00 -
[754] - Quote
Beautiful. It's The Legendary Extraordinary Me |
Samantha Utama
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:31:00 -
[755] - Quote
You magnificent bastards. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:32:00 -
[756] - Quote
CCP should consider sending the Goonswarm finance gurus a commemorative trophy. They basically won EVE right there and only stopped because they still ironically have a conscience. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:36:00 -
[757] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Taking the ISK back as already stated by a dev. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:38:00 -
[758] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Taking the ISK back as already stated by a dev.
What ISK? This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1101
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:39:00 -
[759] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:CCP should consider sending the Goonswarm finance gurus a commemorative trophy. They basically won EVE right there and only stopped because they still ironically have a conscience. How ironic ... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:40:00 -
[760] - Quote
Yes, because you see, we're supposed to be the bad guys. |
|
Hesperus Vanderbeets
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
261
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:49:00 -
[761] - Quote
Ban all goons. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1101
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:50:00 -
[762] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Yes, because you see, we're supposed to be the bad guys.
Hesperus Vanderbeets wrote:Ban all goons. The perfect solution. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:55:00 -
[763] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Yes, because you see, we're supposed to be the bad guys. Hesperus Vanderbeets wrote:Ban all goons. The perfect solution.
Goonocaust? This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
0oO0oOoOo0o
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:57:00 -
[764] - Quote
Quote: ... The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions.
You've just made a bug abuse confession, say bye bye to your isk |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 05:57:00 -
[765] - Quote
Math is not an exploit.
The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.
Or, in this case, "exploits". |
CPT Plahnut
The Planetyrs
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:00:00 -
[766] - Quote
Xutech wrote:Math is not an exploit.
The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.
Or, in this case, "exploits".
Kind of like common sense is to you guys? |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:01:00 -
[767] - Quote
Considering how you use it, CCP really needs to replace the sand in the box with cat litter. |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:05:00 -
[768] - Quote
CPT Plahnut wrote:Xutech wrote:Math is not an exploit.
The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.
Or, in this case, "exploits". Kind of like common sense is to you guys? It's common sense to follow the rules. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4127
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:11:00 -
[769] - Quote
Did CCP reverse the transactions when P.I. was introduced, and a not entirely dissimilar "feature" - of which they were also pre-warned - led to people making sums of ISK in the same league? (Albeit the total was spread out over more players)
IIRC they only reversed those made AFTER the publications of the exploit notice. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
blackpatch
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:12:00 -
[770] - Quote
death to goons |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:13:00 -
[771] - Quote
lol it hit massively
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/22/eve-players-abuse-faction-warfare-to-produce-trillions-of-isk/ a rogue goon |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:15:00 -
[772] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Did CCP reverse the transactions when P.I. was introduced, and a not entirely dissimilar "feature" - of which they were also pre-warned - led to people making sums of ISK in the same league? (Albeit the total was spread out over more players)
IIRC they only reversed those made AFTER the publications of the exploit notice.
What was the scale of that fiasco?
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:15:00 -
[773] - Quote
Nikodiemus wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Still waiting for the exploit to be pointed out The exploit was goons playing the game in a way that doesn't involve whining to CCP to alter game mechanics in our favor. Same as always. You are really a terrible propagandist and give a good name to sub-par posters - even from Goon. Try harder drone.
My e-honor. :(
Mikelii wrote:Richard Disturned follows his own rules. He's a man on the edge. He's going to be off this case if he doesn't calm down soon! We can't have any mad-dog posters in goonswarm.
We're all loose cannons. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
xPredat0rz
Violent Alternatives C0NVICTED
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:18:00 -
[774] - Quote
So to sum up 40 pages of fun...
CCP puts out an even BIGGER isk printing machine after nerfing the last one...
Goons mess with it and print up a few trillion...
CCP wants to punish them now.
IF thats the case why not take isk away from all the incursion runners that were making billions a day in isk payouts....Not including the Massive amounts of LP that drove the entire LP market into the gutter,
Plex prices Doubled during that fiasco.
So CCP you release another broken printing machine and someone proves how broke and your going to take away the gains...
Seems a bit unrealistic to me.
1. Your interfering with the sandbox you so like to preach about.
2. You didnt knee jerk this much about incursions which were just as broke.
3. Tech moons again something just as broke arent fixed.
Fix it pat them on the back and move on. Taking any assets away from this is basically saying that you should take isk away for any mechanic that allows you to print isk. If your not going to do that you shouldnt touch this isk. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:18:00 -
[775] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:What was the scale of that fiasco?
the OP of this thread got insanely rich from PI patch speculation a rogue goon |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:19:00 -
[776] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Taking the ISK back as already stated by a dev. What ISK?
I dunno, maybe read the *snip* thread.
Post edited due to personal attack ISD Dosnix We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:20:00 -
[777] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:I dunno, maybe read the ******* thread.
you still haven't told us when your sub runs out a rogue goon |
Yolanta Geezenstack
GWA Corp Unified Church of the Unobligated
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:21:00 -
[778] - Quote
Xutech wrote:The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.
Guilty - both my EVE and math skill is at 0/5. I really didn't fully understand what they did.
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:CCP should consider sending the Goonswarm finance gurus a commemorative trophy. They basically won EVE right there and only stopped because they still ironically have a conscience.
My psychology skill is at 3/5 though, I dare to say that imo it wasn't conscience which made you guys stop, but psychological reasons - you were aware that if you exaggerate it CCP will do something drastically to safe their sandbox, maybe even do a server rollback. But if you stop it (after still getting a good chunk of loot) you have a good chance that they don't bother trying to solve the hassle (imagine the work! trying to find out who did what, which items were shifted and where are the items and the ISK now, who else is affected etc. - I see tedious of hours of looking through logfiles...).
Kudos to a brilliant thought out and executed job. |
Jed Clampett
The Order Of Viision
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:22:00 -
[779] - Quote
CCP has been informed of the ease of market manipulation many times and has mostly ignored it. The few times they responded I was told the option is there by design.
Only the introduction of LP and its multiplier effect under Inferno is new.
With LP you stepped on some CCP toes. But I suspect only the LP aspects will be fixed. FW seems to be a bit of a pet project that refuses to either die or be well designed. And of course the new clothing issues point toward there being every reason to suspect LP and aurum will soon be connected as the two alternative ways to get special goodies -- pay or participate in CCP pet projects.
The Goons have done us another good turn by demonstrating why neither players nor CCP shouldn't take progress in EVE too seriously.
And the good thing is that for the most part elite pay or FW players are mainly competing with each other...outside an occasional gank this really doesn't effect the average player who works in much less rarified realms of value. This a big dog issue, not one for ordinary citizens of EVE to get riled up about.
|
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
525
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:25:00 -
[780] - Quote
The obvious solution is to ban all goons forever. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
|
White Carnation
SYNDIC Unlimited
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:33:00 -
[781] - Quote
Jed Clampett wrote:And the good thing is that for the most part elite pay or FW players are mainly competing with each other...outside an occasional gank this really doesn't effect the average player who works in much less rarified realms of value. This a big dog issue, not one for ordinary citizens of EVE to get riled up about.
Unless you're a Researcher, who depends on the value of their datacores for buying pod goo and (the occasional) units of ammo.
Then, when somneone bottoms out the datacore market, we get r*yally scr*wed.
Goons, how about sum luv (and a couple bill ISK each) for the poor victims of your market manipulation. Look at it as spreading the wealth, which wilkl all come back to you viia the technetium monopoly
Humbly White Carnation Research Capsuleer |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:34:00 -
[782] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:The obvious solution is to ban all goons forever. This is the only possible solution. Prepare yourself, MWO. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:35:00 -
[783] - Quote
White Carnation wrote:Then, when somneone bottoms out the datacore market, we get r*yally scr*wed.
Goons, how about sum luv (and a couple bill ISK each) for the poor victims of your market manipulation. Look at it as spreading the wealth, which wilkl all come back to you viia the technetium monopoly
after much discussion, we have decided to honour your request, however, we will not give you ISK, but advice
never have all of your eggs in the same basket a rogue goon |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:44:00 -
[784] - Quote
CPT Plahnut wrote:Xutech wrote:Math is not an exploit.
The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.
Or, in this case, "exploits". Kind of like common sense is to you guys?
Leeches do not posses common sense. |
Dorn Val
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:56:00 -
[785] - Quote
Why do I feel the need to congratulate the Goons on yet another brilliant manipulation of the sandbox!? Well done folks!!! Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |
first toLate
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:58:00 -
[786] - Quote
well played :)
but dont think you were the only one doing this |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 06:59:00 -
[787] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Malcanis wrote:Did CCP reverse the transactions when P.I. was introduced, and a not entirely dissimilar "feature" - of which they were also pre-warned - led to people making sums of ISK in the same league? (Albeit the total was spread out over more players)
IIRC they only reversed those made AFTER the publications of the exploit notice. What was the scale of that fiasco?
Bigger. In part because it took no effort and it was public knowledge. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:01:00 -
[788] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:The obvious solution is to ban all goons forever. Conspiracy theory says that this is also part of the scheme to game the results of the investigation:
The fact is that only a few players actively participated in this exploit, not the entire alliance. Thus, only those specific players are likely to be targeted for whatever disciplinary action(s), if any, that CCP chooses to make. That the players belong to Goonswarm has no bearing on this matter, and is not likely to figure into CCP's decision.
But, by casting the crime as yet-another Goons vs. everyone (incl. CCP) issue, it is a slick attempt at trying to place CCP in a no-win situation, where, irregardless of their decision, they will be accused of either (a) punishing these players, just because they are Goons, or (b) letting these players get away with breaking the rules, just because they are Goons.
Perhaps it might even leverage CCP to consider a "reasonable" compromise, ie. seizing the most easily tracked ill-gotten ISK/assets, but allowing the perps to keep any "laundered" gains, and without any bans - temp or otherwise - needing to be issued.
Clever, very clever.... |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:01:00 -
[789] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Taking the ISK back as already stated by a dev. What ISK? I dunno, maybe read the ******* thread.
I did. What Isk was created to be taken away? I saw metric shitloads of ISK being destroyed. And some insignificant amount created from insurance payouts. If you'd like CCP to take away the involved insurance payouts and can provide a rationale for doing so, then by all means. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:03:00 -
[790] - Quote
Xutech wrote:Math is not an exploit.
The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.
Or, in this case, "exploits".
Hard to say it wasn't an exploit when the gsf PR department admitted as much in the first post.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
|
Zibu 81
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:05:00 -
[791] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
I'll just burn my hours for plex to say that this could be seen as soon as CCP has posted the dev blog about the changes.
I've even posted about it on a public forum:
And no, I didn't do anything about it as I've been unsubscribed, but I still enjoy a bit of Eve drama :)
|
Crellion
Parental Control
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:06:00 -
[792] - Quote
I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's. :P
On the other hand this was an obvious hole of bad design by CCP. I don't mean the initial bug but the core mechanic of rewarding based on average price market of cargo and offering the person reaping this reward in LPs the opportunity to redeem at 1/4 the LP cost at a fully upgrafed system, allowing for buying even more stuff blah blah blah.
They made and advertised (in the dev blog) a big arse closed loophole of infinite isk. It was there for all to see before the patch went live. Most people did not see the opportunity or did not pursue it (my corp thinks FW is for nooblars )... How does that entittle us to punish goonies for goign ahead with it.
How can CCP punish this activity after having advertised the possibility in their dev blog (determined as they were to "reverse the value of null sec v low sec v FW to put FW at the apex"). Well done CCP FW is now at the apex as intended.
I dunno hats off t[o goons I guess but I am very dissapointed with CCP for such a cavallier approach... +20% in LP costs from fully upgraded systems would have been incntive enough... what was the point in going for a 400% incentice ffs...
Ham fisted & CCP these days a match made in heaven it seems...
It is wrong for goons to have aquired all that isk for subzero risk and effort but not their wrong, CCP's booboo rather.
|
Zalifer Esepula
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:14:00 -
[793] - Quote
I love all the people talking about this as if it was an exploit or something "the goons" will get punished for :D
FW kill are a valid tactic for getting LP. LP store is a valid place to buy stuff. Market manipulation, while oft complained about, is within the rules of the game, and is not using a broken mechanic or external program.
All of this is legit and ingenious.
EDIT : also, ISK sinks are what the game needs right now. The correct way to fix this is the patch the hole, and not worry too much about it. If you want to throw untested mechanics into a sandbox, you need to be willing to accept the results. The entire idea of eve is to twist everything to your advantage. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:15:00 -
[794] - Quote
Crellion wrote:It is wrong for goons to have aquired all that isk for subzero risk and effort but not their wrong, CCP's booboo rather.
It's far from being "zero risk or effort." It's high-effort because it involved an insane amount of planning and number crunching. It's high-risk because, well, if CCP isn't very happy with what happened, at best, they could take away the profits made from this, or at worst, hand out bans (which doesn't seem likely, but it's still possible) - and there's the whole risk of all their numbers being wrong or the whole plan going south if they ran into an unforeseen obstacle in the process. And then there's the fact that CCP will most likely be /much/ more careful when working on future changes for the game to prevent enterprising individuals from finding gaping holes like this to jump through. a rogue goon |
Wasse
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:19:00 -
[795] - Quote
I really fail to understand how or why anyone could call this an exploit of a bug.
If I understand this right....
Amount of LP was tied to the 'price estimator'. The price estimator was based on a 90 day moving average. Because of this, they could manipulate the market, and get items at a cheaper cost to blow up.
On top of that, LP was also given for the value of stuff that dropped.
There is no bug here. There is.. bad design. Bad thinking. Bad Product Management. Bad game design. But no bug. And if there is a bug (say, giving LP for stuff dropped), the parties involved would have no way to know it was a bug.
And.. can you really punish someone for exploiting bad game design? Well, where do you start? Where do you stop? I know the joke has been thrown out there about tech, but you could parallel the same case there.
For the person somewhere (and probably multiple people) - that said this is why they don't like EvE - I'm sorry to hear that. Personally, this is why I _like_ EvE. Even if I'm not in a position to pull something off like this myself, the fact such a thing is possible, is amazing. What other game could you do this in?
Again, something that should be stressed here - they did not create isk. All they did was take isk (and minerals) out of the game. They also flooded the market and lowered prices on some things. (which sadly includes Minmtar Starship Engineering course, of which I had 3 characters with 6 research agents on. Oh well). Doesn't that help the game? Break the stagnation.
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:19:00 -
[796] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Xutech wrote:Math is not an exploit.
The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.
Or, in this case, "exploits". Hard to say it wasn't an exploit when the gsf PR department admitted as much in the first post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_license This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2030
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:20:00 -
[797] - Quote
Crellion wrote:I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's. :P
No Isk was created. A metric buttload of Isk was destroyed. Your isk is worth more than it was before. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
AS Patriot
Solar Storm Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:20:00 -
[798] - Quote
So for once you actually did something usefull and located an exploit in game mechanics..
I gotta say.. Thank you very much for bringing balance into game...
Now could you convince ccp to work on pvp and gate mechanics? :P |
Crellion
Parental Control
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:22:00 -
[799] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Crellion wrote:It is wrong for goons to have aquired all that isk for subzero risk and effort but not their wrong, CCP's booboo rather.
It's far from being "zero risk or effort." It's high-effort because it involved an insane amount of planning and number crunching. It's high-risk because, well, if CCP isn't very happy with what happened, at best, they could take away the profits made from this, or at worst, hand out bans (which doesn't seem likely, but it's still possible) - and there's the whole risk of all their numbers being wrong or the whole plan going south if they ran into an unforeseen obstacle in the process. And then there's the fact that CCP will most likely be /much/ more careful when working on future changes for the game to prevent enterprising individuals from finding gaping holes like this to jump through.
(a) hope you read the rest of what I posted too
(b) it is virtually zero risk and effort compared to the risk and effort involved in making a few trillion isk in other ways.
The problem of course is not the people that did this but the CCP dev plan that includes LP rewards for cargo items, at market price and the possibility to redeem at 1/4 th the cost... |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:41:00 -
[800] - Quote
AS Patriot wrote:So for once you actually did something usefull and located an exploit in game mechanics..
I gotta say.. Thank you very much for bringing balance into game...
Now could you convince ccp to work on pvp and gate mechanics? :P
EVE isnt meant to be fair
Zalifer Esepula wrote:I love all the people talking about this as if it was an exploit or something "the goons" will get punished for :D
True, the corp doesnt get punished when these things happen. Like Bob didnt get punished for T20 or the POS Bowling thing (but theyre not the same thing in this case, just the punishment isnt visited on the corp in the past) http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:46:00 -
[801] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Nikodiemus wrote:The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.
I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^ We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering.
You did not report the other pseudo-exploit that can still be done as I write... I found out about it yesterday about 1 hour before this thread was posted. I suppose CCP's code has multiple vulnerabilities... Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Signal11th
535
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:48:00 -
[802] - Quote
Credit where credit is due, well done chaps! God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:51:00 -
[803] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
Taking the ISK back as already stated by a dev. What ISK? I dunno, maybe read the *snip* thread. Post edited due to personal attack ISD Dosnix You seem to be having a problem fathoming a minor detail here. 1) No isk was created. 2) No isk was created. 3) No isk was created. 4) No isk was created. 5) No isk was created. 6) No isk was created. 7) No isk was created. 8) No isk was created. 9) No isk was created. 10) No isk was created.
Is it in yet? |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 07:58:00 -
[804] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:
Is it in yet?
Thats what she said
had to
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:05:00 -
[805] - Quote
Best dev blog ever. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Mme Pinkerton
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:08:00 -
[806] - Quote
Crellion wrote:I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's. :P they created LP from thin air, not ISK (they actually destroyed ISK when cashing out the LP).
Any ISK that ended up in their wallets was taken from other players.
The amount of ISK in circulation decreased as a result of their activities.
Wasse wrote:I really fail to understand how or why anyone could call this an exploit of a bug.
there are bugs in game design and there are bugs in the implementation of game design.
this is one of the former. An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
|
Balkor Wolf
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:09:00 -
[807] - Quote
Hats off to the Goons, you guys made a day at work that bit more interesting |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
504
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:09:00 -
[808] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:
OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
oh man, how did this get past without the formal response?
can i have your stuff? |
Kmelx
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:18:00 -
[809] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Empty threats, best threats!
|
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:25:00 -
[810] - Quote
So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
|
|
atrum dux
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:28:00 -
[811] - Quote
So it worked as intended until some guys decided to throw in some billions of isk on their own to help the oppressed. CCP wants the minmatar back into slavery. Someone should batphone the UN. |
Wille Sanara
Felador night Corp
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:28:00 -
[812] - Quote
So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP? |
saltrock0000
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:29:00 -
[813] - Quote
So CCP just totaly went against thier entire ethos.
"Eve is a sandbox"
Yet CCP changed the average price of items on the market. Not very much of a sandbox if you ask me, CCP should pick a stance on the whole thing and stick to it, not allow alot of lets be honest bannable things because "eves a sandbox" and then act on others because "eves a sandbox".
Goons really opened my eyes to what a hypocritical company CCP is, picking the line "eves a sandbox" when they cant be bother'd to act on something, like say, hulkageddon or griefing. Then instantly jumping on something like this.
All goons did to my understanding was play the games withing the rules, with some amrket manipulation afterall eves a sandbox.
Byt the way did i mention "EVES A SANDBOX" |
atrum dux
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:32:00 -
[814] - Quote
Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market? |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:32:00 -
[815] - Quote
atrum dux wrote:So it worked as intended until some guys decided to throw in some billions of isk on their own to help the oppressed. CCP wants the minmatar back into slavery. Someone should batphone the UN.
I doubt it worked as intended. At all.
The description makes it clear people found an exploit..and exploited it.
This is a no brainer really.
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:33:00 -
[816] - Quote
Kmelx wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Empty threats, best threats! Keep in mind that CCP Sreegs is the one who disqualified Hydra and OB from ATX. He is also the one who routinely seizes ISK and assets, and applies the ban hammer, to RMT accounts. He would not be my first choice of CCP devs to accuse of making empty threats. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:33:00 -
[817] - Quote
atrum dux wrote:Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market?
Nope.
Bug abuse i think is whats being referenced. |
Wasse
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:34:00 -
[818] - Quote
Mme Pinkerton wrote:Crellion wrote:Wasse wrote:I really fail to understand how or why anyone could call this an exploit of a bug.
there are bugs in game design and there are bugs in the implementation of game design. this is one of the former.
As someone who works for a software company (business software, but still software), I've never once heard bad design called a bug. Really, this is the difference.
Bug = code not doing what it was supposed to. Bad Design = Well, bad Design. Things happen that you didn't intend to happen, but it's not a direct result. It's a result of gaming the system.
In my realm, if the GL account suddenly goes negative $150,000, and there is no reason for it, that's a bug. In essence, the software took money away. It got lost somewhere. Or if it went positive $150,000, it created money in some transaction.
Bug. That's not what happened here.
On the other hand, if a sales guy figured out how to get game the Incentives module - and figured out the best practice for getting extra incentives - well, that's bad design. Not a bug. Just he gamed the system.
That's what they did here. They looked at the rules, and they used the rules to their advantage. Period. |
Khardia Melanchton
Booomer Inc. Broken Toys
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:35:00 -
[819] - Quote
My congratulations to the folks creating this really impressive market manipulation strategy. I was really impressed about your creativity and analytical abilities. Was great for me to read, and I must say, I really felt like a noob compared to this great idea. Wow!
Nevertheless, we will see how the market reacts to it. As a strong believer in market mechanism, you may end up finding that your increadible wealth is just several magnitutes smaller than you think right now. From a economical perspective you (1) removed a reasonable amount of ISK from the game and (2) piled up huge stocks of LP items, as it seems mostly implants and faction ships. A non-fail market will react to this with falling prices for such items and higher prices for ISK, which means, the prices for the items you gained will drop dramatically. Actually, they already dropped.
As clever you behaved, I am sure, you are aware of this and will either try to sell items before the market really found it's new equilibrium or sell only in small amounts over a very long time period.
However, your profit from this impressive market manipulation will, nevertheless, be HUGE!
My congratulations, this was a coup! Khardia |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:36:00 -
[820] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit?
Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have. Nothing was exploited at all. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
|
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:36:00 -
[821] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:So CCP just totaly went against thier entire ethos.
"Eve is a sandbox"
Yet CCP changed the average price of items on the market. Not very much of a sandbox if you ask me, CCP should pick a stance on the whole thing and stick to it, not allow alot of lets be honest bannable things because "eves a sandbox" and then act on others because "eves a sandbox".
Goons really opened my eyes to what a hypocritical company CCP is, picking the line "eves a sandbox" when they cant be bother'd to act on something, like say, hulkageddon or griefing. Then instantly jumping on something like this.
All goons did to my understanding was play the games withing the rules, with some amrket manipulation afterall eves a sandbox.
Byt the way did i mention "EVES A SANDBOX"
I don't think this is accurate at all. Its very strawman.
If someone breaks your game, you fix it. Thats what you do.
I think the quote : "By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse"
Lets you know what occurred.
Abuse.
Profiting from abuse, in any form, really needs to be stamped out. Otherwise you'll have a ton of people saying "But i didn't know it was bug abuse" as they try to tear the systems apart looking for the next exploit.
This is the same as the Reactions exploit. No different.
|
Scottacus XIV
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:37:00 -
[822] - Quote
Crellion wrote:I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's :P
Actually, because of the nature of what they did, no ISK was created. Instead, they had to pay ISK (this destroys the ISK) into the LP stores in order to receive items which they then sold to players for their ISK. In fact, because the ISK was destroyed, there is less ISK in three system. Therefore, your ISK is now worth very very slightly more than it did before.
What they did do, however, was flood the market with LP items and devalue the **** out of them. |
Wasse
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:38:00 -
[823] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit? Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have.
Similar idea. I think cloakies camping in systems is bad game design. Cloaking was never intended for such a purpose. Since they can essentially stop someone from making isk in that system, we should make their wallets go negative for it.
After all, they are exploiting bad game design. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:41:00 -
[824] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit? Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have.
Is debuffing your ships so they have unlimited range an exploit?
1: Was this the intended use of this mechanic? No
2: Were the people involved aware this was not the intended use of this mechanic? Yes
3: Did the people involved profit from the unintended use of this mechanic? Yes
I understand these people are your friends, in your corp. And i understand some people see "Goonswarm" and go crazy due to some perceived hatred of a group of players just playing the game. So it seems as if GSF is being attacked. I hope i don't come across as anti-GSF, that isnt the case I assure you.
This isn't really a metagame issue.
Whoever did this, no matter what corp they are in, did bug abuse.
Its a no brainer.
I've banned players on our games for less. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:41:00 -
[825] - Quote
Wasse wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit? Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have. Similar idea. I think cloakies camping in systems is bad game design. Cloaking was never intended for such a purpose. Since they can essentially stop someone from making isk in that system, we should make their wallets go negative for it. After all, they are exploiting bad game design.
Your debate style is terrible. One is not related to another!
|
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:42:00 -
[826] - Quote
Wille Sanara wrote:So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP? By that logic neut logis should be banhammered, people evading wardecs through neutral alts should be banhammered, people blapping BSes with tracking-fit titans should be banhammered etc. |
Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:43:00 -
[827] - Quote
Thanks for ruining the FW and the LP market you attention starved jerks! About time you shove off and ruin a different game don't you think?! I look forward to your bans for exploiting game mechanics and will be here drinking in the oceans of tears from your fellow alliance mates crying about how their buddy was given the kick to the curb.
-2 accounts till goons are removed from the game. They say they bring content, but it is in fact a complete load of bullshit. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:44:00 -
[828] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Wille Sanara wrote:So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP? By that logic neut logis should be banhammered, people evading wardecs through neutral alts should be banhammered, people blapping BSes with tracking-fit titans should be banhammered etc.
Not sure if serious.
The logic isnt the same. If X then Y does not follow If A,,B,C then Y.
|
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:48:00 -
[829] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Thanks for ruining the FW and the LP market you attention starved jerks! About time you shove off and ruin a different game don't you think?! I look forward to your bans for exploiting game mechanics and will be here drinking in the oceans of tears from your fellow alliance mates crying about how their buddy was given the kick to the curb.
-2 accounts till goons are removed from the game. They say they bring content, but it is in fact a complete load of bullshit.
Ok, come wipe us out. Should be easy, most people in game hate us, so make a huge alliance and come curb stomp us. Eve allows you to do this. There's your player created content.
Oh yeah, you're a pubbie. You'll just cry to CCP to remove game challenges for you. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Kinis Deren
EVE University Ivy League
55
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:48:00 -
[830] - Quote
I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO.
Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat
How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? |
|
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:49:00 -
[831] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit? Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have. Is debuffing your ships so they have unlimited range an exploit? 1: Was this the intended use of this mechanic? No 2: Were the people involved aware this was not the intended use of this mechanic? Yes 3: Did the people involved profit from the unintended use of this mechanic? Yes
Did they notify CCP? Yes
Did they receive a reply that informed them such actions were illegal in the game? No |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:51:00 -
[832] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote: Did they notify CCP? Yes
Did they receive a reply that informed them such actions were illegal in the game? No
This post, while accurate, will be completely ignored. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:54:00 -
[833] - Quote
Wasse wrote: As someone who works for a software company (business software, but still software), I've never once heard bad design called a bug.
A design feature which is coded correctly, but does not work as intended in the field, is indeed known as a design "bug".
These sorts of bugs happen frequently in large, complex software systems, where it is difficult or impossible to work out all of the possible use cases, via QA or simulation, prior to release.
Perhaps you remember the Patriot Missile software failure during the Gulf War, which resulted in a failed Scud intercept and the deaths of 28 US soldiers? This failure was due to a design bug, not a coding bug. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:55:00 -
[834] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO.
Heads will not roll, because this is a game, and further, a computer program. Computer programs have bugs, it happens. CCP (hopefully) won't destroy a person's livelihood because he failed to write perfect code.
This is not a big deal in real life, at least for them. The same can't be said for quite a few members of this board. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
atrum dux
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 08:56:00 -
[835] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:atrum dux wrote:Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market? Nope. Bug abuse i think is whats being referenced.
It's a bug because ccp didn't intend for people to get lp by blowing up ships and market manipulation isn't allowed if you're not a jita market bot. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:01:00 -
[836] - Quote
God ******* damn this is brilliant, just brilliant. Well played Illuminati Goons. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:07:00 -
[837] - Quote
Wait, when did they unban mention of kugu? That WAY more significant than any goonscam. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:08:00 -
[838] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote: Did they notify CCP? Yes
Did they receive a reply that informed them such actions were illegal in the game? No
I believe that this particular argument was used by Hydra/OB, in the ATX incident. I also seem to recall that it was rejected.
So, I rather doubt that anyone involved in this incident is planning to throw down a repeat of that failed logic. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
996
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:09:00 -
[839] - Quote
So in summary:
CCP failed to implement the simple FW fix (ie NPC rebalance) that a large number of FWers have been asking for for years.
CCP failed to sit down with long-time FWers from all sides to discuss how to proceed as had been requested on multiple occasions.
Instead CCP decided to do things their own way and made a massive ****-up.
Good work CCP. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:11:00 -
[840] - Quote
I see no bugs or exploits here. Just a malleable game mechanic some people cleverly optimized on and gained from. |
|
Hermia
Aliastra Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:17:00 -
[841] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Best dev blog ever.
Im not a devout devswarm believer but it still funny
|
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:17:00 -
[842] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Actually, it's not that simple. If this case would ever be brought to a real-life court, the Goons would likely go free. The problem is that there is no decisive evidence to support that the Goons did do this on purpose.
"Whaaa? They admitted doing this! There's your evidence, dude"
Precisely. It's the Goons admitting the scheme, which holds no value whatsover. They are of the same value as the ramblings of a madman. It can not be proven whether the Goons were deliberately abusing a system or they merely discovered this by accident and thought it was just working as CCP intended. In real-life court, the Goons would use the latter as a valid means of defense and would get away with it.
The key here is to realize this is not a real-life court. CCP has to act, but needs time to fully investigate what has happened. It is very likely that CCP was not even aware of this during their internal testing. That is because of one thing and one thing only:
The Goons know this game better than the CCP developers do.
Bottom-line is that the Goons gather around and wonder how to abuse and manipulate the system. That is the sole-purpose of their meetings. CCP does not have these. They don't have a group of hackers ready to do internal testing on how to abuse a system CCP designed. They release it to the live-servers and the Goons are the ones testing it.
Without the Goons, this would not have been discovered for a while. And clever players would have found out eventually, by accident or on purpose. Regardless, it would likely be abused over a longer period of time as the Goons are honest enough to publicize their findings in a relatively short time-frame (within a month upon release on the live servers).
Should the Goons be punished? Ban their accounts? Possibly. CCP has the right and ability to do whatever she deems fit. They can ban the Goon players admitting that they did this, or the entire corp. Perhaps even the entire alliance. Problem is that there is no right-way of dealing with it. If they ban players or a corp/alliance, they no longer hold on to the concept of the sandbox: give players the freedom to develop themselves. If they won't take action at all, other players will be disheartened knowing that "crime pays off". An example of this attitude is given by this post:
Wille Sanara wrote:So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP?
I really wouldn't want to be in CCP's shoes right now. They were beaten in a game that they created, outsmarted by its players.
CCP, if you do decide on actions against the Goons, may I suggest keeping this only to a small core group of developers? The more CCP employees know about actions against the Goons, the more likely the chance they will be tipped off giving them ample time to prepare for the upcoming ban or any other action you may take. As I said before, Goons will outsmart you and they will find a way to get around your ban or roll-back, or whatever you come up with. The only true way to punish them is a shift, sudden action with no time to prepare.
It will be interesting to see what the outcome is of this.
Oh and as personal opinion, I highly favor a ban of all Goons for a month. Determine whose accounts are from Goons players and ban all of them without any warning given. Give out the message that this was one abuse too many.
but... I'm realist enough to know CCP will likely not do such action and I won't be disheartened if CCP doesn't do anything at all. CCP knows the Goonswarm will always be one step ahead of them like true hackers trying to enter a protected system. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:17:00 -
[843] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Interesting.
Haven't yet "completed the investigation" but a pre-determined outcome seems to have been decided.
To me this seems horribly like CCP sour grapes as they were simply outclassed. Yeah, markets were trashed, but nothing was magically spawned - it was a poorly designed mechanic.
Even after the LP gimp GS simply adapted so CCP obviously knew something was up. They failed at game mechanics design and will now revert to hacks and gimps. They have just cracked the ***** because they were outplayed.
There is simply no other way to put it.
If this is so bad why aren't CCP launching investigations into people "abusing" the Margin Trading skill or people "abusing" the markets through manipulations?
Where's the CCP cavalry then? EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Henk Fixer
Rim Worlds Republic Solar Citizens
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:18:00 -
[844] - Quote
I think in general this is great, another of those EvE stories that make people want to play the game. It would be nothing without the drama.
However, its spoilt by the usual low level intellect posts by the Goons. "buhuhuh pubbie tears, I r waiting here for my tears" (when really, 2% of people reply here who are upset, 98% of EvE couldnt give a ****)
I can appreciate the thought and execution by the top level who set it in motion, less impressed by the brain dead dribbling masses of goons who think spamming the word "ground floor!!" somehow means they were involved.
I suppose its a little like Stephen Hawkings figuring out how the Universe began, and his colostomy bag cheering for joy and claiming it had something to do with it. |
Aeryn Tiberius
Imperial Reclamation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:21:00 -
[845] - Quote
I just want to thank the goons for showing how messed up CCP really is. Thank you, CCP tries to create a sandbox then players build a sandbox and put CCP into it. |
Crellion
Parental Control
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:25:00 -
[846] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Wasse wrote: As someone who works for a software company (business software, but still software), I've never once heard bad design called a bug.
A design feature which is coded correctly, but does not work as intended in the field, is indeed known as a design "bug". These sorts of bugs happen frequently in large, complex software systems, where it is difficult or impossible to work out all of the possible use cases, via QA or simulation, prior to release.Perhaps you remember the Patriot Missile software failure during the Gulf War, which resulted in a failed Scud intercept and the deaths of 28 US soldiers? This failure was due to a design bug, not a coding bug.
I disagree with the part in bold.
Creating a system where the reward to the killer is potentially 4x the loss of the person whose ship just diaf'd (or eve 1.5x for that matter) is a sure way to introduce an easy exploit in a game where everyone knows that the same RL controller can be both the killer and the victim.
A great many people saw this merely from reading the dev blog... so for the devs not to spot it .... hmmmm....
|
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:29:00 -
[847] - Quote
Singulis Pacifica wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Actually, it's not that simple. If this case would ever be brought to a real-life court, the Goons would likely go free. The problem is that there is no decisive evidence to support that the Goons did do this on purpose.
I don't think this is a court.
Like i said previous, we've banned people for less on our game. And owning up to it just gets you a "Well, thanks for admitting to it", right after the banhammer.
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:32:00 -
[848] - Quote
atrum dux wrote:Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market? Well if CCP do anything to GS over this conceivably - yes. A precedent will have been set.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:33:00 -
[849] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Thanks for ruining the FW and the LP market you attention starved jerks! About time you shove off and ruin a different game don't you think?! I look forward to your bans for exploiting game mechanics and will be here drinking in the oceans of tears from your fellow alliance mates crying about how their buddy was given the kick to the curb.
-2 accounts till goons are removed from the game. They say they bring content, but it is in fact a complete load of bullshit.
So you're mad because they were...Better Than You?
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:36:00 -
[850] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8?
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here. a rogue goon |
|
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:38:00 -
[851] - Quote
That's just pride ****ing with them. Nice gamble.
http://imgur.com/dfVDn.jpg |
Kmelx
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:39:00 -
[852] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Keep in mind that CCP Sreegs is the one who disqualified Hydra and OB from ATX. He is also the one who routinely seizes ISK and assets, and applies the ban hammer, to RMT accounts. He would not be my first choice of CCP devs to accuse of making empty threats.
Those assets/accounts are all acquired through abuse of the EULA by botting, or RMT, essentially he has grounds on the basis of the EULA to take action against those accounts. The Alliance Tournament is subject to whatever rules they want to make up.
There are no such rules or grounds here IMO. CCP designed the game, Goons played the game, in playing the game they made ISK, truly obscene amounts of ISK but they did so via the mechanics that CCP introduced into the game, I don't see how CCP can possibly justify taking the ISK or the assets/LP back.
|
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:39:00 -
[853] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation.
|
SupaFlyTNT
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:44:00 -
[854] - Quote
That's pretty well played
/tips hat |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:44:00 -
[855] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation. And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right? |
Cebraio
Starfire Oasis
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:52:00 -
[856] - Quote
And here I was, thinking goons were just a bunch of mindless tools who could win with quantity but not with quality.
Well played, gentlemen!
* slow hands clap *
I feel much more space-poor now. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:52:00 -
[857] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation. And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right?
Not really.
I dont thing congratulating people on bug abuse is really gonna happen.
|
Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 09:58:00 -
[858] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy. By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
IGÇÖd be interested to hear how you are twisting this into being an GÇ£abuseGÇ¥. As far as I can see the mechanics being used here are working exactly the way you guys designed them to work. The fact that you have now decided to change the way some of those mechanics work is irrelevant.
Also IGÇÖm a bit worried to see that although the investigation isnGÇÖt yet complete you already seem to have decided what the outcome will be. I would HOPE that a full investigation would highlight what have to be enormous flaws in your design and QA processes that allowed this system to be implemented, and I would HOPE that the resulting recommendations would strongly suggest that additional testing and QA processes were needed to emphasise the testing of GÇ£edgeGÇ¥ or GÇ£limitingGÇ¥ cases.
I EXPECT your investigation will gloss over the failures of CCP employees (as usual) and place the blame on the players who in this case are obviously smarter than all of you guys put together.
IsnGÇÖt it about time you guys at CCP realised that this isnGÇÖt a game? This is your lively GÇôhood and you should probably start to act with a bit more professionalism when it comes to the changes you make to it. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:00:00 -
[859] - Quote
shut up nerds
jimmy carr paid 1% tax for a bit, it ain't illegal, he wont go to jail. but the bbc will fix the tax system same thing happened here fix the system ccp, don't send jimmy carr to jail do ccp think they are bigger than THE QUEEN?? |
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:01:00 -
[860] - Quote
Nothing surprising here.
CCP has a track record of design failures when it comes to malleable mechanics and grasping the lengths players will go to optimize them.
What you see is the market equivalent of a blapping titan.
There are the people who can optimize the turret tracking formula.
Then there are the people who can optimize the 3-month moving average formula.
I can see why CCP is trying to fix blapping titans. What I didn't see was CCP reimbuirsing players who lost subcaps to blapping. I didn't see sov changes resulting to titan use reversed. I didn't see titan pilots banned.
Why should it be any different for market moving averages? Because they were Goons, and we don't like them?
Back to the tracking analogy, unless there was an actual bug, like that one time when Rooks and Kings fought off those magnetar dudes with infinite tracking turrets, I find manipulating 3-month moving averages completely within the rules of the game; and while a fix would be welcome, just as with the subcap sniping titans, it is a legitimate tactic. |
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Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:01:00 -
[861] - Quote
Anyone else notice that 'Jewbal' is a tautology, since is a combination of 'Jew' and 'cabal'?
The term cabal derives from Kabbalah (a word that has numerous spelling variations), which is a Jewish belief system(among other things), so it logically follows that a cabal is generally gonna be a bunch of Jews. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:04:00 -
[862] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation. And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right? Not really. I dont thing congratulating people on bug abuse is really gonna happen. But...It wasnt a bug. A bug is when code do something it shouldnt do.
Ships killed would give LP according to the price, price would be calculated on the exchange price of the last 3 months. Everything was working as intended. Except the formula was poorly designed.
The code did what it was supposed to do, but the design behind the code was flawed. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:07:00 -
[863] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:I feel much more space-poor now. Actually, you're comparatively spacericher on the basis of tons of ISK being taken out of the game permanently. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:07:00 -
[864] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
Thats funny the 1st 4 pages of this thread was a circle jerk of Goon members congratulating each other on how Goons have done it again,
Now the **** has hit the fan its, "oh nothing to do with the general Goon membership"
When did the huge distinction appear ?
Poor attempt at spin, no use trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Goons to CCP "we aren't trying to ruin the game just your game"
Tal
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:10:00 -
[865] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Sizeof Void wrote: A design feature which is coded correctly, but does not work as intended in the field, is indeed known as a design "bug".
These sorts of bugs happen frequently in large, complex software systems, where it is difficult or impossible to work out all of the possible use cases, via QA or simulation, prior to release.
I disagree with the part in bold. A great many people saw this merely from reading the dev blog... so for the devs not to spot it .... hmmmm.... QA checklists and simulation code are designed to test out the original specification use cases only. It is simply impossible to test every possible combination in a large, complex system. And, a design bug will usually not be caught here, because a design feature is not considered to be a bug, by the developers, until it has actually failed in the field.
Design bugs are most commonly discovered by end users, and, oddly enough, frequently pointed out even before the system was finalized or built.
Unfortunately, software developers often experience tunnel vision, with regards to their designs and are reluctant to admit to possible design flaws, esp. to end users. This is particularly prevalent when the developer has no or little actual hands-on experience in the area for which the software is being designed.
I have seen this quite often first-hand, working in many different fields, and usually require my developers to spend several weeks doing the end user's job, on a real project, before starting on any actual application design work. In a few instances, I've allowed a stubborn developer to do a design doc first, spend a couple of weeks on the job, and then revisit his/her design doc. In all such cases, the developer has thrown away his/her original design and successfully built something that the end user can actually use. A great deal of time and money is saved, since the first release actually works, as the end user expects it to work.
In other forum threads, i've suggested that CCP try a similar development strategy, particularly with regards to changes to the UI and new feature design/changes targeted to a specific subset of the player base, such as mining. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:10:00 -
[866] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Wille Sanara wrote:So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP? By that logic neut logis should be banhammered, people evading wardecs through neutral alts should be banhammered, people blapping BSes with tracking-fit titans should be banhammered etc. Not sure if serious. The logic isnt the same. Yes, it is. It's all a game mechanic which is being used in a fashion which CCP didn't think of when it was made. Neut logis weren't supposed to be usable in a war to make f.ex what appears to be a 1v1 engagement in reality be a 1v1+10 neut logis. Titans weren't supposed to be subcap blapping machines, yet that's part of what they were used for. Titans weren't supposed to be used for POS bowling, yet that's also part of what they were used for, etc etc etc. And FW wasn't supposed to be this gameable, yet that's what they ended up being used for.
What's common between all of these? Unintended consequences, and all 4 of those examples have been (or have been stated will be) changed. And no-one have been banned for using them. |
Chia Mulholland
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:10:00 -
[867] - Quote
Sometimes people find ways to use the systems in game in unexpected ways. In a game as complicated as Eve, that's pretty much inevitable.
Take jetcan mining. Jetcans were never intended to be used that way, but people did and CCP let it stay in game. Noone was banned for using jetcans that way or had their ore taken away.
Other times an unexpected use of a mechanism is too unbalanced and gets removed - like when you could buy Pax Amarria from NPCs and refine it into cheapish nocxium. The mechanism was removed, but noone was banned or had their nocxium removed for using this mechanism.
Some people bought tons of PI materials when they predicted that prices would skyrocket when NPCs stopped selling them. Again, noone has had their ISK taken away or been banned for this.
I believe it would be a first if CCP were to ban people for taking advantage of an in-game market mechanic, no matter how broken, and/or take their ISK (or in this case, LP rewards) away.
But hey - there's a first for everything I guess.
But it's interesting to me that a lot of the market "exploits" that have been done over time all involve NPCs either buying or selling stuff at fixed, non-market prices with unlimited demand/supply. Maybe there's a lesson here that we can learn from. |
Montmazar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:11:00 -
[868] - Quote
Every single Improve FW Megathread in Features and Ideas or Assembly Hall since forever has always had everyone agreeing "LP for kills? No that's a dumb idea. But what about. . . ."
And then CCP ships something that gives LP for kills, which turns out to be actually be a pretty dumb idea!
What I'm getting at here is maybe y'all should just get rid of the Features and Ideas and Assembly Hall forums, since it's pretty clear you aren't reading anything in there.
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:13:00 -
[869] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:When did the huge distinction appear ?
At the very beginning. Unless everyone else who slow-clapped in this thread is also involved.
Also the **** didn't "hit the fan" when the NPC alts started wagging their fingers at the "general membership." a rogue goon |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:16:00 -
[870] - Quote
Aryth wrote: When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the playerGÇÖs kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.
The above quote shows why this isn't a bug, and it's not an exploit.
CCPs design was inherently flawed, but it was designed that way. At no point did a CCP employee typo a decimal place in the wrong place. It just doesn't work.
It's not even a formula that a single employee would have used to meet a goal. It was a core component of the whole system. It would have been vetted by numerous people. They probably even did some modelling on it (with the wrong parameters of course).
CCP just had too narrow a vision to figure out what could happen in a system that by design is dynamic in its nature (and value). |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4127
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:18:00 -
[871] - Quote
If CCP remove the profits of this venture from Goons, will they also retroactively remove the profits from the guy who posted about how he built tens of thousands of battleships, insured them and then destroyed them for a profit? (this was before the insurance nerf)
How about the people who made obscene profits (possibly totally even more than 5Tn) from the horribly botched P.I. introduction?
What about the BoB members who used to rake in billions a week using titans to bridge freighter-loads of NPC goods from Delve for unbelievable profits? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
uuj Oramara
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:19:00 -
[872] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Kmelx wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Empty threats, best threats! Keep in mind that CCP Sreegs is the one who disqualified Hydra and OB from ATX. He is also the one who routinely seizes ISK and assets, and applies the ban hammer, to RMT accounts. He would not be my first choice of CCP devs to accuse of making empty threats.
|
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:19:00 -
[873] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:When did the huge distinction appear ? At the very beginning. Unless everyone else who slow-clapped in this thread is also involved. Also the **** didn't "hit the fan" when the NPC alts started wagging their fingers at the "general membership."
Nope I saw 4 or 5 pages of Goons jerking off over this, not allot of NPC alts till CCP came in to comment .
Tal
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:19:00 -
[874] - Quote
whats goin on in this thread |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2441
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:20:00 -
[875] - Quote
Imryn Xaran wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy. By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. IGÇÖd be interested to hear how you are twisting this into being an GÇ£abuseGÇ¥. As far as I can see the mechanics being used here are working exactly the way you guys designed them to work. The fact that you have now decided to change the way some of those mechanics work is irrelevant. Also IGÇÖm a bit worried to see that although the investigation isnGÇÖt yet complete you already seem to have decided what the outcome will be. I would HOPE that a full investigation would highlight what have to be enormous flaws in your design and QA processes that allowed this system to be implemented, and I would HOPE that the resulting recommendations would strongly suggest that additional testing and QA processes were needed to emphasise the testing of GÇ£edgeGÇ¥ or GÇ£limitingGÇ¥ cases. I EXPECT your investigation will gloss over the failures of CCP employees (as usual) and place the blame on the players who in this case are obviously smarter than all of you guys put together. IsnGÇÖt it about time you guys at CCP realised that this isnGÇÖt a game? This is your lively GÇôhood and you should probably start to act with a bit more professionalism when it comes to the changes you make to it.
It's a clear case of abuse, but the consequenses are still up in air. Outsmarting the devs isn't a defense. It's what every exploiter or abuser does succesfully. The only thing in question is what are the consequenses. To me this is similar to the infinite tracking abuse that happened in specific wormholes some time ago. The mechanics worked as they were designed, but created a situation where you could break the system and gain excessive benefits because of it. I believe the consequense was removal of assets CCP thought was fair to remove. I suspect something similar will happen here.
The people who did this also acted against how CCP has adviced people act in similar situations. IIRC it was posted at least in one of the forum exploit devblogs made by Sreegs. The basic gist of it was, that you're supposed to report it to CCP in detail with reproduction steps and not use the exploit once you have discovered it for any reason. A specific example of what not to do was to report it, but continuing to use it. What actually will happen to them is up to CCP to decide based on the actual details of the case, but there are clear precedences where people who acted in similar fashion have suffered from CCP actions against them. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:21:00 -
[876] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If CCP remove the profits of this venture from Goons, will they also retroactively remove the profits from the guy who posted about how he built tens of thousands of battleships, insured them and then destroyed them for a profit? (this was before the insurance nerf)
How about the people who made obscene profits (possibly totally even more than 5Tn) from the horribly botched P.I. introduction?
What about the BoB members who used to rake in billions a week using titans to bridge freighter-loads of NPC goods from Delve for unbelievable profits? Ban all the things. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:25:00 -
[877] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Malcanis wrote:If CCP remove the profits of this venture from Goons, will they also retroactively remove the profits from the guy who posted about how he built tens of thousands of battleships, insured them and then destroyed them for a profit? (this was before the insurance nerf)
How about the people who made obscene profits (possibly totally even more than 5Tn) from the horribly botched P.I. introduction?
What about the BoB members who used to rake in billions a week using titans to bridge freighter-loads of NPC goods from Delve for unbelievable profits? Ban all the things.
XxD memes r funny |
Alain Kinsella
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:29:00 -
[878] - Quote
Thank you for a couple hours of interesting reading. corestwo had been acting even slyer than usual in -lounge so I figured something was still up. :-)
I'm not going to weigh in on either side. I made it very clear a while back that I've had my experience with SA back in SL, and the rest of y'all can duke it out this time. :-p
I *am* waiting to see what Screegs will say though. *That* will be a popcorn moment for sure, forget this here. I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4127
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:32:00 -
[879] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote: I *am* waiting to see what Screegs will say though. *That* will be a popcorn moment for sure, forget this here.
Truth right here
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:34:00 -
[880] - Quote
I'm imagining the most popular GoogleGäó search performed in Iceland today was "What is an outlier?" EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
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Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1061
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:35:00 -
[881] - Quote
Well, seeing as you are likely to lose most of the isk you 'earnt' my advice to go Jita and mess up the Price of plex just for fun before they take it all the isk away from you and leave oyu with negative wallets My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:48:00 -
[882] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:I'm imagining the most popular GoogleGäó search performed in Iceland today was "What is an outlier?"
You could have saved 90% of the people reading this thread the trouble by explaining it. Then again, this *is* an entertaining thread, so why stop that by educating the masses. |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:53:00 -
[883] - Quote
If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:53:00 -
[884] - Quote
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Without the Goons, this would not have been discovered for a while. And clever players would have found out eventually, by accident or on purpose. Regardless, it would likely be abused over a longer period of time as the Goons are honest enough to publicize their findings in a relatively short time-frame (within a month upon release on the live servers).
It's funny because right yesterday I was chatting with Corestwo on SCC-Lounge when I told him CCP should not have released moving averages based content. In fact I found another way to manipulate a similar principle Inferno mechanic (you call it "clever player") that is not the FW LP stuff and was talking about it before this thread was written. But I am not going to "publicize" my findings, I just create an in game ticket.
Singulis Pacifica wrote: Should the Goons be punished? Ban their accounts? Possibly. CCP has the right and ability to do whatever she deems fit.
Well CCP labelled it as "abuse", it means they did not like it. This trumps every EULA foggy clause (that can be twisted as CCP wants anyway). In fact I would not be suprised if they came up with the "against the spirit of the game" clause, even if tbh the spirit of this game is to screw up the next guy and then smack talk him in public.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:56:00 -
[885] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Vile rat wrote:If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue. It seems positions are now clear.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 10:56:00 -
[886] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Well, seeing as you are likely to lose most of the isk you 'earnt' my advice to go Jita and mess up the Price of plex just for fun before they take it all the isk away from you and leave oyu with negative wallets
it's called 'restraint' a rogue goon |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1061
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:00:00 -
[887] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Skippermonkey wrote:Well, seeing as you are likely to lose most of the isk you 'earnt' my advice to go Jita and mess up the Price of plex just for fun before they take it all the isk away from you and leave oyu with negative wallets it's called 'restraint' However you think this is going to play out, CCP arent going to let you keep all that money, so you best have fun with it while you still have it My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:01:00 -
[888] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:However you think this is going to play out, CCP arent going to let you keep all that money, so you best have fun with it while you still have it
you're aware that this only involved 5 dudes, not the entire GSF, right?
also since when do you determine CCP's position? a rogue goon |
Kinis Deren
EVE University Ivy League
55
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:02:00 -
[889] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
So noted and I stand corrected.
Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved? |
Sweetss
Rim Worlds Republic Solar Citizens
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:03:00 -
[890] - Quote
Whats funny is that Goons try to verbally beat down everyone else, creating their own cute little term for them (pubbies), yet in actual fact they are pubbies who roleplay being moronic idiots. They post a thread about ruining everyones life and then all respond to each other congratualting themselves and calling each other sociopaths etc. (aka that lame Vile Rat ponce's response at the start).
Outside of EvE they are no doubt about as sociopathic as my pet hamster Terrence. Mittani being the biggest role-playing pubbie there is. He absolutely LIVES his little sociopathic image. Quite the "sad little nobody" ego. |
|
OUTLAW RIOT P0LICE
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:03:00 -
[891] - Quote
If you need to launder some of those shiny Stabber Fleets or anything please contract them to me, k thanks, much appreciated. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:03:00 -
[892] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved?
You're reading too much into this. We don't have to distance ourselves from their actions. a rogue goon |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:03:00 -
[893] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here. So noted and I stand corrected. Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved?
Distancing ourselves? Is this some silly legalese garbage where somebody can't point to something that happened and say "holy **** that was awesome" ? |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:04:00 -
[894] - Quote
Sweetss wrote:Whats funny is that Goons try to verbally beat down everyone else, creating their own cute little term for them (pubbies), yet in actual fact they are pubbies who roleplay being moronic idiots. They post a thread about ruining everyones life and then all respond to each other congratualting themselves and calling each other sociopaths etc. (aka that lame Vile Rat ponce's response at the start).
Outside of EvE they are no doubt about as sociopathic as my pet hamster Terrence. Mittani being the biggest role-playing pubbie there is. He absolutely LIVES his little sociopathic image. Quite the "sad little nobody" ego.
No you don't understand, Aryth is really a sociopath. Not even because of this either. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1061
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:06:00 -
[895] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue. We'd be much more convinced of your 'best intentions' if they figoured out the exploit and immediately informed CCP.
Instead, you (rather impressively may i add) exploited the game mechanics to basically create your own isk printing press.
Dont act like you are some white knights here to save EVE from all that is broken. My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1061
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:07:00 -
[896] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Skippermonkey wrote:However you think this is going to play out, CCP arent going to let you keep all that money, so you best have fun with it while you still have it you're aware that this only involved 5 dudes, not the entire GSF, right? also since when do you determine CCP's position?
yes
anymore questions?
edit - i dont dictate CCPs position. I thought that was already pretty clear
sreegs wrote:By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch underlined and bolded for you My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Fix Lag
299
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:07:00 -
[897] - Quote
"Yeah we'll just take the money they earned legitimately...because there was too much of it."
Sounds legit Sreegs |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:08:00 -
[898] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If CCP remove the profits of this venture from Goons, will they also retroactively remove the profits from the guy who posted about how he built tens of thousands of battleships, insured them and then destroyed them for a profit? (this was before the insurance nerf)
IIRC that guy seems to have "fallen" into RMT of that ISK so in a certain way... it's been removed even if not for the insurance fraud.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:09:00 -
[899] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Skippermonkey wrote:However you think this is going to play out, CCP arent going to let you keep all that money, so you best have fun with it while you still have it you're aware that this only involved 5 dudes, not the entire GSF, right? also since when do you determine CCP's position? yes anymore questions?
So you're saying that you determine CCP's position on these matters? a rogue goon |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:09:00 -
[900] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Vile rat wrote:If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue. We'd be much more convinced of your 'best intentions' if they figoured out the exploit and immediately informed CCP. Instead, you (rather impressively may i add) exploited the game mechanics to basically create your own isk printing press. Dont act like you are some white knights here to save EVE from all that is broken. No isk was printed. |
|
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:09:00 -
[901] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue. First...nicely played (quite some brains there in goonwaffe)...in a world with no consequences it would be at least
BUT
From the public twitter thing to the 175 000 $ (?) this thing probably went to far...not only for the mastermind who obviously was getting an unpleasent sensation in the course of the action...somewhere at least. It probably occurs to more people than just me that this looks like an emergency brake? (the CCP puncturis tweet?)
This is kind of detrimental to CCP-¦s buissnes. if really hundrets of trillions or billions or whatever of isk were generated and distributed....well a lot of accounts do not have to pay in real life money for game time for quite some time.
The reactions from CCP will be interesting (Although they do not have a choice really, do they...) |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:10:00 -
[902] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Vile rat wrote:If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue. We'd be much more convinced of your 'best intentions' if they figoured out the exploit and immediately informed CCP. Instead, you (rather impressively may i add) exploited the game mechanics to basically create your own isk printing press. Dont act like you are some white knights here to save EVE from all that is broken. You mention about how they wanted to avoid 'screwing the economy', well, they might have very well done that anyway.
As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.
Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1061
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:10:00 -
[903] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Skippermonkey wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Skippermonkey wrote:However you think this is going to play out, CCP arent going to let you keep all that money, so you best have fun with it while you still have it you're aware that this only involved 5 dudes, not the entire GSF, right? also since when do you determine CCP's position? yes anymore questions? So you're saying that you determine CCP's position on these matters?
read my above post... you replied faster than i could edit my post My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:10:00 -
[904] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved? You're reading too much into this. We don't have to distance ourselves from their actions.
Yes you do. Again read the first pages of this thread all the Goons jumping in to pat themselves on the back , Now its nothing to do with you, how does that work ?
Tal
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:11:00 -
[905] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:This is kind of detrimental to CCP-¦s buissnes. if really hundrets of trillions or billions or whatever of isk were generated and distributed....well a lot of accounts do not have to pay in real life money for game time for quite some time.
Another 'PLEX come out of thin air' post. a rogue goon |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1061
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:11:00 -
[906] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Also let me be perfectly blut here. There was no bug abuse looks like abuse of the game to me http://i.imgur.com/dtMk4.png My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:11:00 -
[907] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Skippermonkey wrote:However you think this is going to play out, CCP arent going to let you keep all that money, so you best have fun with it while you still have it you're aware that this only involved 5 dudes, not the entire GSF, right? also since when do you determine CCP's position?
Didn't we go through this, you didn't comment on all the goons taking credit as a collective at the beginning of this thread ?
Tal
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:12:00 -
[908] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Yes you do. Again read the first pages of this thread all the Goons jumping in to pat themselves on the back , Now its nothing to do with you, how does that work ?
Tal
No, we don't. a rogue goon |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
578
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:12:00 -
[909] - Quote
I am baffled by the fact CCP didn't see this coming and coded a safety break in the system. It was such an obvious exploit and was called out several times by players long before release :facepalm:.
Congrats to goons for pulling this off on such a massive scale. I guess the level of damage done to the system and the estimated time for the economy to recover will guide CCP on how to proceed. I wouldn't be surprised if they called Force Majeure and reverted all/most LP earned to protect the integrity of the game. To bad FW looks more broken than ever. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:12:00 -
[910] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Well, seeing as you are likely to lose most of the isk you 'earnt' my advice to go Jita and mess up the Price of plex just for fun before they take it all the isk away from you and leave oyu with negative wallets
I don't believe they have the isk yet. It's tied up in the implants and whatever items were bought using the "illicit LP", as the OP stated.
None of these accusations of exploits nor defense there of matter one iota to CCP, who will do whatever they believe is correct.
But, just to add my .02isk, they didn't exploit the market, they exploited the LP gains. I suppose you can argue that the devs should have had the foresight to think people would join all sides of faction wars and drive freighter fulls of lootz into their own alt. But that's a little hard to do when your intent of the system isn't to give people a way to make a crap loads of isk but to give the more causal capsuleer a chance to do low risk PVP without having to join a dull, er I mean, null alliance. And that's why I believe CCP should approach this, not as a question of "exploiting a bug", but exploiting and compromising the spirit of why faction wars were added in the first place. The Goons in this case aren't even playing the same game as the rest of the faction pilots. |
|
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:13:00 -
[911] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Yes you do. Again read the first pages of this thread all the Goons jumping in to pat themselves on the back , Now its nothing to do with you, how does that work ?
Tal No, we don't.
Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent ?
Tal
|
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:14:00 -
[912] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:So noted and I stand corrected.
Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved? I can say what they did was hilariously awesome while not getting any flak from CCP, because at worst it's going to happen to those 5 people, and them alone. So why should I "officially distance myself from the actions of the members involved"?
Eugene Kerner wrote:This is kind of detrimental to CCP-¦s buissnes. if really hundrets of trillions or billions or whatever of isk were generated and distributed....well a lot of accounts do not have to pay in real life money for game time for quite some time. Sigh.
1) No isk were generated. 2) No isk were generated. 3) No isk were generated. 4) No isk were generated. 5) No isk were generated. 6) No isk were generated. 7) No isk were generated. 8) No isk were generated. 9) No isk were generated. 10) No isk were generated.
In fact, isk was taken out of the economy. |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:14:00 -
[913] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:I am baffled by the fact CCP didn't see this coming and coded a safety break in the system. It was such an obvious exploit and was called out several times by players long before release :facepalm:.
Congrats to goons for pulling this off on such a massive scale. I guess the level of damage done to the system and the estimated time for the economy to recover will guide CCP on how to proceed. I wouldn't be surprised if they called Force Majeure and reverted all/most LP earned to protect the integrity of the game. To bad FW looks more broken than ever.
Well a lot of non goons profited from this as well, including noted badposter Jade Constantine. |
Sweetss
Rim Worlds Republic Solar Citizens
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:15:00 -
[914] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Sweetss wrote:Whats funny is that Goons try to verbally beat down everyone else, creating their own cute little term for them (pubbies), yet in actual fact they are pubbies who roleplay being moronic idiots. They post a thread about ruining everyones life and then all respond to each other congratualting themselves and calling each other sociopaths etc. (aka that lame Vile Rat ponce's response at the start).
Outside of EvE they are no doubt about as sociopathic as my pet hamster Terrence. Mittani being the biggest role-playing pubbie there is. He absolutely LIVES his little sociopathic image. Quite the "sad little nobody" ego. No you don't understand, Aryth is really a sociopath. Not even because of this either.
Course he is mate. You keep patting yourselves on the back and sniggering like beavis and butthead. Im sure a large proportion of people can say they've "done things". They just dont wear it like a sad little t-shirt for everyone else to see.
because......its not a big deal mate |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:16:00 -
[915] - Quote
Sweetss wrote: because......its not a big deal mate
Yet like the gravitational pull of a Dice FC you're drawn to this thread. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:16:00 -
[916] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Lexmana wrote:I am baffled by the fact CCP didn't see this coming and coded a safety break in the system. It was such an obvious exploit and was called out several times by players long before release :facepalm:.
Congrats to goons for pulling this off on such a massive scale. I guess the level of damage done to the system and the estimated time for the economy to recover will guide CCP on how to proceed. I wouldn't be surprised if they called Force Majeure and reverted all/most LP earned to protect the integrity of the game. To bad FW looks more broken than ever. Well a lot of non goons profited from this as well, including noted badposter Jade Constantine.
exactly. even people who had no idea what was going on (ie: didn't read the publically announced google document as tweeted by aryth) were able to look at the markets and see that something was off - and, by taking advantage of that, these people earned billions.
albeit not in the same magnitude as aryth & co, but they certainly profited. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:17:00 -
[917] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent ?
Tal
Let me try to say it more bluntly.
CCP has the logs and the data. They have what they need to perform an investigation. Any action they may take will be taken against those who were involved. They won't punish GSF as a whole for their actions, no matter how many Goonswarm members applaud it, simply because the people involved did this entirely on their own.
Simple enough? a rogue goon |
Kinis Deren
EVE University Ivy League
55
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:17:00 -
[918] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here. So noted and I stand corrected. Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved? Distancing ourselves? Is this some silly legalese garbage where somebody can't point to something that happened and say "holy **** that was awesome" ?
No, not at all and you know it LOL - awesome or exploit that's for others to decide. I was merely intrigued by Richard's response in which he clearly felt it was important to state where the ownership for the event lay. Interesting that you avoided addressing the question yourself VR |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:19:00 -
[919] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:Vile rat wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here. So noted and I stand corrected. Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved? Distancing ourselves? Is this some silly legalese garbage where somebody can't point to something that happened and say "holy **** that was awesome" ? No, not at all and you know it LOL - awesome or exploit that's for others to decide. I was merely intrigued by Richard's response in which he clearly felt it was important to state where the ownership for the event lay. Interesting that you avoided addressing the question yourself VR
Look up. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:20:00 -
[920] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:Vile rat wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here. So noted and I stand corrected. Does that mean Goonswarm is officially distancing itself from the actions of the members involved? Distancing ourselves? Is this some silly legalese garbage where somebody can't point to something that happened and say "holy **** that was awesome" ? No, not at all and you know it LOL - awesome or exploit that's for others to decide. I was merely intrigued by Richard's response in which he clearly felt it was important to state where the ownership for the event lay. Interesting that you avoided addressing the question yourself VR
i would say he answered the only question you asked: "is goonswarm distancing themselves from the actions of the few who manipulated -ú75,000 of eve cash?"
the answer was a loud, unanimous, resounding "no" |
|
saltrock0000
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:20:00 -
[921] - Quote
Am I the only person wondering why CCP is interfearing with the market when this is apparently a SANDBOX |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:21:00 -
[922] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.
Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Sweetss
Rim Worlds Republic Solar Citizens
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:21:00 -
[923] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Sweetss wrote: because......its not a big deal mate
Yet like the gravitational pull of a Dice FC you're drawn to this thread.
ah there we go, back to typical response mode.
yes... yes Im drawn to this and Im over awed by your undeniable pretend computer evilness...muhah....er....
Hmm. I'll leave you to taking turns dropping the soap in Mittans Captains Quarter.
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:21:00 -
[924] - Quote
also you mistake Richard's desire to not say GOONSWARM did this (to give credit where credit is due [aryth and co jesus christ they're amazing]) for some sort of distancing. i understand, you're a silly pubbie and kind of slow, but he's doing it out of respect for aryth - not somehow saying OH **** GUYS WE'RE GONNA GET BUGGERED BY CCP BEST BLAME THE FEW |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:23:00 -
[925] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Vile rat wrote:As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.
Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?
i'm not a diplo or any sort of official respondent but why the hell would we? gs didn't do this, the VAST majority of GSF, a nine thousand man alliance, had no idea this was happening.
even if aryth and co get punished, we'll still say "haha that was ******* awesome" |
Mme Pinkerton
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:23:00 -
[926] - Quote
Wasse wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:Crellion wrote:
[quote=Wasse]I really fail to understand how or why anyone could call this an exploit of a bug.
there are bugs in game design and there are bugs in the implementation of game design. this is one of the former. As someone who works for a software company (business software, but still software), I've never once heard bad design called a bug. Really, this is the difference. Bug = code not doing what it was supposed to. Bad Design = Well, bad Design. Things happen that you didn't intend to happen, but it's not a direct result. It's a result of gaming the system. In my realm, if the GL account suddenly goes negative $150,000, and there is no reason for it, that's a bug. In essence, the software took money away. It got lost somewhere. Or if it went positive $150,000, it created money in some transaction. Bug. That's not what happened here. On the other hand, if a sales guy figured out how to get game the Incentives module - and figured out the best practice for getting extra incentives - well, that's bad design. Not a bug. Just he gamed the system. That's what they did here. They looked at the rules, and they used the rules to their advantage. Period. does it make you happier if I call it a "defect" instead of a "bug"?
To try an analogy from the material world - a bridge can break down because the engineer made bad assumptions about the load it would have to carry or a bridge can break down because the steel used in construction was of inferior quality.
I would call both cases "defects" despite the former being a defect by design and the latter a defect in implementation.
The way goons used the game mechanics resulted in obviously unintended consequences - the best defense in their favor is to argue that unintended consequences are an essential ingredient of sandbox environments, not to split hairs about whether obviously defective design is a "bug" or not.
(edit: The distinction between "design" and "implementation" in software engineering is notoriously blurry in any case - I could take an extreme position and argue that all code you write is essentially a low-level design document from which the compiler generates the actual implementation. Or I can argue that at the highest level FW design was probably sound ("reward people for destroying ships based on the value of the destroyed ship/cargo") and that using an easily gamed 90day average price for the calculations was an error in the implementation of said design.) An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:25:00 -
[927] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:No, not at all and you know it LOL - awesome or exploit that's for others to decide. I was merely intrigued by Richard's response in which he clearly felt it was important to state where the ownership for the event lay. Interesting that you avoided addressing the question yourself VR
I stated that the responsibility was in the hands of the cabal rather than the alliance as a whole simply because that is a fact. It was mostly a response to your fantastic notion that it is some sort of retaliation for the Fanfest debacle - it's not. It's simply the cabal's magnum opus. a rogue goon |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:25:00 -
[928] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:It's a clear case of abuse, but the consequenses are still up in air. Outsmarting the devs isn't a defense. It's what every exploiter or abuser does succesfully. The only thing in question is what are the consequenses. To me this is similar to the infinite tracking abuse that happened in specific wormholes some time ago. The mechanics worked as they were designed, but created a situation where you could break the system and gain excessive benefits because of it. I believe the consequense was removal of assets CCP thought was fair to remove. I suspect something similar will happen here.
The people who did this also acted against how CCP has adviced people act in similar situations. IIRC it was posted at least in one of the forum exploit devblogs made by Sreegs. The basic gist of it was, that you're supposed to report it to CCP in detail with reproduction steps and not use the exploit once you have discovered it for any reason. A specific example of what not to do was to report it, but continuing to use it. What actually will happen to them is up to CCP to decide based on the actual details of the case, but there are clear precedences where people who acted in similar fashion have suffered from CCP actions against them. The tracking bug wasn't a bad mechanic design, it was a bug. By turning the tracking disruptor on each other they made their tracking value go negative, which to most implementations of software that don't explicitly take negative values into account means infinite.
Notice where they said they avoided getting negative(and therefore infinite) values? There MIGHT have been a bug there, but it was deliberately avoided.
In this situation, they took legit mechanics, and used them at scales far beyond what CCP ever expected.
THERE WAS NO BUG. Just a poorly thought out formula, which was pointed out by multiple people many times prior to going live. CCP knew it was there, or is still ignoring the userbase(which they claim to have learned not to do).
In short, if CCP does take action against the people who forced them to acknowledge a poor mechanic, that was working as intended but no one ever thought would be used this way.
There is no such thing as exploiting a mechanic in EVE, only exploiting bugs. This is one of the great things about the game, which makes it stand out among MMOs. If CCP actions the perpetrators, then they are violating the sandbox they designed, just like they would have been violating it if they did anything about Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, or titans blapping subcaps. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:26:00 -
[929] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent? I haven't taken credit for anything, except being in the same alliance as them. All I've said is "that's awesome". I guess you've just got it so in for us goons that you want 9000 characters (or rather, however many people are behind those 9000 characters) to be punished for what 5 people did, if there is any punishment going to be handed out over this.
In the same vein, I guess all the tech certain alliances got through the "abuse" of tracking titans should be rolled back, too, as it was clearly not what the titans were designed to do. In the same vein, I guess the whole alliance of someone who's won an engagement in hisec due to them using neut logis should be punished, too. Or any alliance which has had people evaded any wardec camp in jita by abusing neutral alts. |
Gun Gal
Dark Club
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:26:00 -
[930] - Quote
I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well.
No matter how you cut it, finding a bug, not reporting it, and exploiting it is wrong.
PS I love how you goons all circlejerked at the beginning of this thread and now are backtracking heavily. |
|
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:27:00 -
[931] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Vile rat wrote:As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.
Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?
This is a video game. The people who run the video game are well within their rights to run their video game however they please. If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things. |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:28:00 -
[932] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:Am I the only person wondering why CCP is interfearing with the market when this is apparently a SANDBOX
"Sandbox" does not mean "Anarchy". The sandbox must still have rules and laws by which it functions. The sandbox gives you the tools to build what you want. But the tools still have to function correctly.
People need to stop using "sandbox" as a catch all defence of everything. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:28:00 -
[933] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar? Why should CCP do anything against GSF? |
Montmazar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:32:00 -
[934] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:saltrock0000 wrote:Am I the only person wondering why CCP is interfearing with the market when this is apparently a SANDBOX "Sandbox" does not mean "Anarchy". The sandbox must still have rules and laws by which it functions.
Those rules are called "game mechanics." |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:34:00 -
[935] - Quote
Vile rat wrote: If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things.
1. Laugh at a goon leader who overseas their death squads that go around overreacting and being vindictive to people who say mean things about them complaing about others overeacting and beign vindictive. 2. CCP dont listen to anyone, why should goons get special treatment ? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:34:00 -
[936] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well.
Nope. a rogue goon |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:34:00 -
[937] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:saltrock0000 wrote:Am I the only person wondering why CCP is interfearing with the market when this is apparently a SANDBOX "Sandbox" does not mean "Anarchy". The sandbox must still have rules and laws by which it functions. The sandbox gives you the tools to build what you want. But the tools still have to function correctly. People need to stop using "sandbox" as a catch all defence of everything. Sandbox means if its possible, without exploiting a bug, its legit. Very simple. Think GTA, if you are having trouble. EVE is basically multiplayer GTA in space. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:35:00 -
[938] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:1. Laugh at a goon leader who overseas their death squads that go around overreacting and being vindictive to people who say mean things about them.
people think this is actually a thing, lol a rogue goon |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:36:00 -
[939] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well. . See, that's the problem here. You played Ultima Online. Now we're talking 5 people and you are trying to encourage CCP to ban 4000+ accounts because of those 5? That's 60K smacks per month they'd lose. Good thing they don't listen to morons like you. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:36:00 -
[940] - Quote
yeah haha that isn't a thing
... |
|
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:37:00 -
[941] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:2. CCP dont listen to anyone, why should goons get special treatment ? No one says we should. We're just better at this game than you are. Quit while you're still ahead. |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:38:00 -
[942] - Quote
There are no such things as death squads who hunt our political enemies. Why, that's just silly. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:39:00 -
[943] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Vile rat wrote:As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.
Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar? This is a video game. The people who run the video game are well within their rights to run their video game however they please. If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things. I think that is a very reasonable position to take and I thank you for your response.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:40:00 -
[944] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:So CCP just totaly went against thier entire ethos.
"Eve is a sandbox"
Yet CCP changed the average price of items on the market. Not very much of a sandbox if you ask me, CCP should pick a stance on the whole thing and stick to it, not allow alot of lets be honest bannable things because "eves a sandbox" and then act on others because "eves a sandbox".
Goons really opened my eyes to what a hypocritical company CCP is, picking the line "eves a sandbox" when they cant be bother'd to act on something, like say, hulkageddon or griefing. Then instantly jumping on something like this.
All goons did to my understanding was play the games withing the rules, with some amrket manipulation afterall eves a sandbox.
Byt the way did i mention "EVES A SANDBOX"
Well its not the first time that the "eve is a sandbox" theme gets thrown by the wayside when game mechanics are used in an apparently unexpected way. The recent plan to near completely nerf defensive allies from the Inferno wardec system is a pretty good example of ("fairness for the attacker" trumping the sandbox of emergent gameplay and unexpected consequences) and its not the first time thats happened in the realm of hisec wardecs either. See Xetic Confederation complaining about 0.0 and wardecs in a threadnaught (old scale) that would see the war system nerfs that would last up to inferno.
But problem with all this is you can't have CCP kneejerking to intervene in the sandbox to protect one side while not doing it to protect another - thats when all the developer bias stuff begins to appear and people lose faith in the game.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:40:00 -
[945] - Quote
actually quite insulted that you're comparing lovely, cuddly mittens to someone like pol pot. |
Signal11th
535
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:40:00 -
[946] - Quote
Humm not seeing what all the fuss is about really, a group of players saw the potential to make isk,make lp whatever...basically because the people who inplemented the opportuntiy didn't think it through correctly.
I'm all for jumping on I/We/All hate Goon threads but I'm struggling to see why there should be any comeback about this...
As I mentioned previously I say fair play to the chaps for being fecking clever and figuring it out. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:40:00 -
[947] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:We're just better at this game than you are. Quit while you're still ahead.
Thank you kind Sir for your sage advice, you are a scholar and a gentlemen, i humbly submit to one so great as yourself.
|
Rasmido
Liga Freier Terraner Ev0ke
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:41:00 -
[948] - Quote
well evaluated, well done .... well played
Do good and talk about it!
|
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:41:00 -
[949] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:We're just better at this game than you are. Quit while you're still ahead. Thank you kind Sir for your sage advice, you are a scholar and a gentlemen, i humbly submit to one so great as yourself. You're welcome. |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:42:00 -
[950] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Sandbox means if its possible, without exploiting a bug, its legit. Very simple. Think GTA, if you are having trouble. EVE is basically multiplayer GTA in space.
I am by far not the one here having trouble with the definition of sandbox. "Sandbox" gets thrown out as the defence or excuse for absolutely everything in EVE. Even if the thing in question is actively deterimental to EVE itself. Between "Sandbox" and "HTFU" its a miracle the game accomplishes any forward progress in its development at all.
Sandbox merely means non-linear, open ended gameplay. Typically in a world that operates on its own persistent rules with or without the players intervention. With the fun, such as GTA, coming from the player actively changing the parameters of those rules in action. But the rules must still remain in place in order for the world to function. |
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:42:00 -
[951] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar? Why should CCP do anything against GSF? I can't think of a valid reason for CCP to act against any person or any group, even though they are already flagging intent while the ink is still wet on the bug report.
CCP tried to buff a turd and just got crap everywhere. Their mess to clean up, but you can't punish people who stress your bad game design.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:43:00 -
[952] - Quote
I'm gone for a month or whatever and suddenly the forums explode in crazy tinfoil-hattery. What is wrong with you people? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:43:00 -
[953] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:There are no such things as death squads who hunt our political enemies. Why, that's just silly.
yer, squad implies some sort of structural organisation to goons in space. It's more a case of some initial pebbles causing the rest of the avalanche to follow in its wake. Point is, don't be at the bottom of the hill (or the guy explaining their lack of vision to their boss at CCP) |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:43:00 -
[954] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue.
Well they could have contracted their stash and transfered the Isk to CCP Sreeg's wallet and said "read this petition it's pretty important you know." Maybe then CCP could give them a medal
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:43:00 -
[955] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Vile rat wrote:As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.
Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar? This is a video game. The people who run the video game are well within their rights to run their video game however they please. If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things.
I can't help but remember how the Goons policy regarding botting by fellow Gooines was not to be reported because "It's not our job to police botters". But now you take it upon yourself to do QA on all new things added? If you're so interested in QA'ing, do it on the test server. But, I digress.
I believe the only motivation for reporting this to CCP is to ensure nobody else has a chance to "cash in". What good is 5 trillion isk when everyone has 5 trillion isk? So, you cash out on this, then before anyone else discovers it, you make sure to get CCP to fix it.
It's not that different from saying "Yes, tech. should be nerfed". Getting it nerfed now means nobody else can profit as much in the future.
The goon have earned and are proud the rep of being general scums of the universe. Not to be trusted in any aspect. But you can keep feeling good about yourselves and how "good" you are for EvE, but I can only imagine this was goons same view of themselves before they were summarily banned from whatever other MMO they plagued. |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:44:00 -
[956] - Quote
so quick estimate yaou guys did ~200.000 clicks to get all these items. lets do a quick math:
if you can do 4 clicks a second (well pretty fast, but we talking goons here) you get 50.000 seconds. Thats 833 minutes or about 14 hours of mindless clicking.....
Well i gratulate you on 14 Hours of mindless clicking in the FW-LP-Store.....if nothinmg else, thats an abuse of your mouse-finger for sure!
|
Pandi Borgia
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:44:00 -
[957] - Quote
I'm not even mad, I am just impressed. |
Sweetss
Rim Worlds Republic Solar Citizens
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:44:00 -
[958] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:actually quite insulted that you're comparing lovely, cuddly mittens to someone like pol pot.
Yeh, Pol Pot was actually relevant in the real world. Like I said before, Mittani is more akin to Stephen Hawkings colostomy bag. |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:45:00 -
[959] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote: CCP tried to buff a turd and just got crap everywhere. Their mess to clean up, but you can't punish people who stress your bad game design.
CCP can pretty much do whatever they like. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1570
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:45:00 -
[960] - Quote
Hey Goons, got some spare change for me ?
Nice work ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:46:00 -
[961] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:so quick estimate yaou guys did ~200.000 clicks to get all these items. lets do a quick math: if you can do 4 clicks a second (well pretty fast, but we talking goons here) you get 50.000 seconds. Thats 833 minutes or about 14 hours of mindless clicking..... Well i gratulate you on 14 Hours of mindless clicking in the FW-LP-Store.....if nothinmg else, thats an abuse of your mouse-finger for sure!
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboards/g19-keyboard-for-gaming |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:46:00 -
[962] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics.
You could argure that having the value of the loot that dropped from the freighters available to process again whilst nonetheless counting in the isk value "destroyed" for LP was an abuse of a bug Vile Rat.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Rudgier Thorrin
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:46:00 -
[963] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:No matter how you cut it, finding a bug, not reporting it, and exploiting it is wrong. It would be a bug if they could create ISK from thin air. Say someone discovers, that buy/sell orders are handled by different servers than the assets and abuses it by creating artificial lag between them to somehow sell/buy the same item multiple times. That would be a bug and an exploit worth banning. The only difference between what Goons did and a "send me a bajilion ISK and I'll triple it" you have ever ten seconds in Jita chat is that they scaled it to insane proportions. It was clearly an extreme abuse of game mechanics, but still those were the mechanics created for the game and if anyone is to blame for it that would be CCP for delivering a faulty product. And I would also argue if it was faulty - a group of people worked hard to figure that out, toke some chances, risked some ISK and cashed in a profit - a perfect example of what EVE is.
Also I don't see a problem with Goons suddenly becoming very rich. It's not like you'll suddenly start encountering 250 supercap alpha fleets. All it means is that they'll start spending it for lolfits and stupid stuff (because seriously - who wouldn't?) and it will eventually produce a lot of lulzworthy killmails, because they won't give a damn about loosing it for awhile. > Implying I need a signature |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:46:00 -
[964] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Well its not the first time that the "eve is a sandbox" theme gets thrown by the wayside when game mechanics are used in an apparently unexpected way. It hasn't changed status from being a sandbox, the rules are just being changed.
Jade Constantine wrote:The recent plan to near completely nerf defensive allies from the Inferno wardec system is a pretty good example of ("fairness for the attacker" trumping the sandbox of emergent gameplay and unexpected consequences) and its not the first time thats happened in the realm of hisec wardecs either. Yes, let's completely gloss over the fact that the reason for the change was the fact that everybody more or less dogpiled into every wardec which was opened up to the public, where some corps had 50-70 active wardecs. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:46:00 -
[965] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent ?
Tal Let me try to say it more bluntly. CCP has the logs and the data. They have what they need to perform an investigation. Any action they may take will be taken against those who were involved. They won't punish GSF as a whole for their actions, no matter how many Goonswarm members applaud it, simply because the people involved did this entirely on their own.Simple enough?
So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now
Tal
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:47:00 -
[966] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Vile rat wrote:If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue. Well they could have contracted their stash and transfered the Isk to CCP Sreeg's wallet and said "read this petition it's pretty important you know." Maybe then CCP could give them a medal
will you send your 8.7 billion to sreegs? |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:48:00 -
[967] - Quote
This thread just keeps delivering. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Signal11th
535
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:49:00 -
[968] - Quote
I wonder how many of these "forums hero's" would have informed CCP if they themselves had found the fault???
Just comes across as "I'm pissed because I didn't get in the action" God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:49:00 -
[969] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Nope. The distance hasn't changed one iota. |
Bridgette d'Iberville
DeadStar Marauders
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:49:00 -
[970] - Quote
A) I love the fact you can do something like this in this game.
B) I'd be really impressed if CCP handled any consequences for these actions in game. Since the Goons clearly had a hand in keeping Minmatar FW on top, maybe have the Amarr Empire do an incursion-like Invasion of Goonspace. Neut the bastards |
|
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:49:00 -
[971] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Vile rat wrote:Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. You could argure that having the value of the loot that dropped from the freighters available to process again whilst nonetheless counting in the isk value "destroyed" for LP was an abuse of a bug Vile Vat.
You could argue that if Goons get Sreeg'd, you're next in line. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:49:00 -
[972] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Sandbox means if its possible, without exploiting a bug, its legit. Very simple. Think GTA, if you are having trouble. EVE is basically multiplayer GTA in space. I am by far not the one here having trouble with the definition of sandbox. "Sandbox" gets thrown out as the defence or excuse for absolutely everything in EVE. Even if the thing in question is actively deterimental to EVE itself. Between "Sandbox" and "HTFU" its a miracle the game accomplishes any forward progress in its development at all. Sandbox merely means non-linear, open ended gameplay. Typically in a world that operates on its own persistent rules with or without the players intervention. With the fun, such as GTA, coming from the player actively changing the parameters of those rules in action. But the rules must still remain in place in order for the world to function. And what rules are being broken?
The rules in EVE change. Its needed to try and prevent/reduce stagnation. As long as those rules are adhered to, it works. One of those rules is that CCP does not directly intervene unless another rule is broken, they just change the rules to prevent it from occurring again.
Only in EVE, we call those rules 'mechanics', and we are expected to obey the letter, not the spirit, of them. The spirit of the game is to lie, cheat, steal, and do whatever it takes to get ahead. For some people, thats large scale market manipulation, like here. Others of us find that taking care of our friends gets us ahead.
Thing is, both approaches are legit, which means both of them(as well as the MANY other legit approaches) inevitably collide, and then, in the spirit of the game, the people who feel hurt should start doing some hurting back.
Whining to CCP violates the spirit of the game. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:49:00 -
[973] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Hey Goons, got some spare change for me ?
Nice work ! No. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:50:00 -
[974] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now
again, why would we need to? a rogue goon |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:52:00 -
[975] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Lexmana wrote:I am baffled by the fact CCP didn't see this coming and coded a safety break in the system. It was such an obvious exploit and was called out several times by players long before release :facepalm:.
Congrats to goons for pulling this off on such a massive scale. I guess the level of damage done to the system and the estimated time for the economy to recover will guide CCP on how to proceed. I wouldn't be surprised if they called Force Majeure and reverted all/most LP earned to protect the integrity of the game. To bad FW looks more broken than ever. Well a lot of non goons profited from this as well, including noted folk hero Jade Constantine.
Well non-goons in the Minmatar Militia profited from the heroic work of our fighters and plexers who produced the beneficial battlefield situation. I know that goons have taken credit for the tier 5 warzone control status that allowed many Matari fighters to cash out their entirely legally-won LP's for beneficial rates but how much that is actually true remains to be seen. It costs about 6m lps to raise the upgrade status of 60 or systems from 1 to 5 and its possible for a single minmatar fighter to make 100,000 lps an hour plexing (or missioning) so thats 60 man hours of legit gameplay across the militia to assemble the LPs needed to do this again. Its certainly not beyond the realms of possibility for 60 people to cooperate an hours effort to do this.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:52:00 -
[976] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Blubbering baby Because? |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:56:00 -
[977] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:so quick estimate yaou guys did ~200.000 clicks to get all these items. lets do a quick math: if you can do 4 clicks a second (well pretty fast, but we talking goons here) you get 50.000 seconds. Thats 833 minutes or about 14 hours of mindless clicking..... Well i gratulate you on 14 Hours of mindless clicking in the FW-LP-Store.....if nothinmg else, thats an abuse of your mouse-finger for sure!
I think its claimed they used a G15 keyboard macro to achieve this amazing feat of patience. (but its okay because unlike macro-mining thats not actually against the game rules)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:57:00 -
[978] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Hulk of a Man Because?
Upset Goons are the best Goons
Tal
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:58:00 -
[979] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Upset Goons are the best Goons
catch up, you were asked why we'd need to distance ourselves in the first place
a rogue goon |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:58:00 -
[980] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Blubbering baby Because? Upset Goons are the best Goons Blubbering baby The only one I see upset is you. So what was your point again in the first place? Why should we have to distance ourself from those 5 guys? In fact, we're glad that they discovered this huge flaw since CCP can't design for crap anyways. |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:58:00 -
[981] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Vile rat wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Vile rat wrote:As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.
Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar? This is a video game. The people who run the video game are well within their rights to run their video game however they please. If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things. I can't help but remember how the Goons policy regarding botting by fellow Gooines was not to be reported because "It's not our job to police botters". But now you take it upon yourself to do QA on all new things added? If you're so interested in QA'ing, do it on the test server. But, I digress. I believe the only motivation for reporting this to CCP is to ensure nobody else has a chance to "cash in". What good is 5 trillion isk when everyone has 5 trillion isk? So, you cash out on this, then before anyone else discovers it, you make sure to get CCP to fix it. It's not that different from saying "Yes, tech. should be nerfed". Getting it nerfed now means nobody else can profit as much in the future. The goon have earned and are proud the rep of being general scums of the universe. Not to be trusted in any aspect. But you can keep feeling good about yourselves and how "good" you are for EvE, but I can only imagine this was goons same view of themselves before they were summarily banned from whatever other MMO they plagued.
Oh, how I missed the "You want tech nerfed so no one else can have any." argument, despite the fact that we are pushing to that everyone in nullsec can get tech through ring mining. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:59:00 -
[982] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Upset Goons are the best Goons Ah, I see. The "u mad!" troll.
Truly scraping the bottom of the troll barrel. |
Crellion
Parental Control
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:59:00 -
[983] - Quote
Vokanic wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Vile rat wrote:Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. You could argure that having the value of the loot that dropped from the freighters available to process again whilst nonetheless counting in the isk value "destroyed" for LP was an abuse of a bug Vile Vat. You could argue that if Goons get Sreeg'd, you're next in line.
Ummm just for the sake of bolstering an epic thread I ll consider the accuracy of this statement. Done. Its false.
IF he really did what he said and IF he made that isk then the "profit" he made was exchanging his LPs at the 1/4 LP cost rate of a fully upgraded system. This is the intended game mechanic (a ridiculous one IMPO but still ...). The fact that the goons had (IF they had) used an exploit to upgrade the system fully is nothing to him. There is no evidence or indication he knew of this and no obligation on him to know anyway. Moreover it is clearly not just him but ALL the happy punters in winmaturd militia exchanging LPs at 1/4 prices legally.
CCP perhaps owes an appology to all of us the rest of EVE who did not get an opportunity to benefit from a 1 - 4 conversion rate and being forced to use the good old 1 - 1 rate but getting items whose value was plummeting due to the exploit lost a lot of potential iskies that would be coming our way if it was not for the haxsploitz (IF there was such an exploit and methinks there was not technically)...
In any event I d rather they did nothing for us rather than "indemnifying us" through an isk faucet... |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 11:59:00 -
[984] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Hulk of a Man Because? Upset Goons are the best Goons Tal
What upset Goons? What are you talking about? You sound like a crazy person. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:01:00 -
[985] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:interested in QA'ing, do it on the test server.
this wasn't done on the test server because one huge aspect of the scheme wasn't possible on the test server a rogue goon |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:01:00 -
[986] - Quote
Rudgier Thorrin wrote:Gun Gal wrote:No matter how you cut it, finding a bug, not reporting it, and exploiting it is wrong. It would be a bug if they could create ISK from thin air.
Initially that is exactly what was happening though ...
To repeat. When you kill a ship in faction warfare (belonging to the enemy faction) you get loyalty points awarded equal to the value of the ship + cargo. These freighters that were being killed on alts were awarding loyalty point payouts (for the kill) that also counted in the cargo that had dropped in space (and thus could be added to a future kill and payout). That really is double counting and is creating (if not isk) then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.)
That (as I understand it) was the bug that got fixed early, but I didn't see any note in the op post suggesting that LP has been removed from the game - its even referred to as "seed" (or foundation) LP for the continuing scheme.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
BillNye TheCynoGuy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:02:00 -
[987] - Quote
BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:03:00 -
[988] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:What upset Goons? What are you talking about? You sound like a crazy person. It's the age-old "you're mad, aren't you?" "no, I'm not." "yes, you so are. just look at you." "no, I'm not mad." "yeeeees you are, oh yes you are. you're so utterly mad." "sigh. go away please." "mad mad mad mad. you're mad. you're mad. you're mad." *punch in the face* "see? I told you you were mad." technique. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:03:00 -
[989] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Amazing Guy Because? Upset Goons are the best Goons Amazing Guy The only one I see upset is you. So what was your point again in the first place? Why should we have to distance ourself from those 5 guys? In fact, we're glad that they discovered this huge flaw since CCP can't design for crap anyways.
Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really.
Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it.
Funny
Tal
|
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:03:00 -
[990] - Quote
well, Eula break again guy:
"3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play"
|
|
Aareya
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:03:00 -
[991] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:THERE WAS NO BUG. Just a poorly thought out formula, which was pointed out by multiple people many times prior to going live. CCP knew it was there, or is still ignoring the userbase(which they claim to have learned not to do).
This deserves emphasis. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:04:00 -
[992] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Rudgier Thorrin wrote:Gun Gal wrote:No matter how you cut it, finding a bug, not reporting it, and exploiting it is wrong. It would be a bug if they could create ISK from thin air. Initially that is exactly what was happening though ... To repeat. When you kill a ship in faction warfare (belonging to the enemy faction) you get loyalty points awarded equal to the value of the ship + cargo. These freighters that were being killed on alts were awarding loyalty point payouts (for the kill) that also counted in the cargo that had dropped in space (and thus could be added to a future kill and payout). That really is double counting and is creating (if not isk) then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.) That (as I understand it) was the bug that got fixed early, but I didn't see any note in the op post suggesting that LP has been removed from the game - its even referred to as "seed" (or foundation) LP for the continuing scheme. Tell me more about how I can turn LP directly into ISK. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:04:00 -
[993] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Upset Goons are the best Goons Ah, I see. The "u mad!" troll. Truly scraping the bottom of the troll barrel.
I know but its lunch and I'm bored, and hey the kettles cant call the pot black .....
Tal
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:05:00 -
[994] - Quote
Vokanic wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Vile rat wrote:Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. You could argure that having the value of the loot that dropped from the freighters available to process again whilst nonetheless counting in the isk value "destroyed" for LP was an abuse of a bug Vile Vat. You could argue that if Goons get Sreeg'd, you're next in line.
Well hardly, I (and the rest of the Minmatar Militia) made our LP quite legally. You could say we benefitted from the tier 5 loyalty point store (and we did) but it would be quite easy to deduct the 6m loyalty points from any sum reclaimed from goons to justify that saturday's levels. It is after all, a tiny drop in the ocean.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:06:00 -
[995] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Blubbering baby Because? Upset Goons are the best Goons Blubbering baby The only one I see upset is you. So what was your point again in the first place? Why should we have to distance ourself from those 5 guys? In fact, we're glad that they discovered this huge flaw since CCP can't design for crap anyways. Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really. Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it. Funny Blubbering baby That's it? That's your whole argument? You are still avoiding the question. Why should we separate our self from those 5? I'm sure you can answer the question, blubbering baby. |
Crellion
Parental Control
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:06:00 -
[996] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:interested in QA'ing, do it on the test server. this wasn't done on the test server because one huge aspect of the scheme wasn't possible on the test server
Upgrading systems?
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:06:00 -
[997] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really.
Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it.
amazing how you haven't responded to my question
why would we need to distance ourselves? a rogue goon |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:06:00 -
[998] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:The rules in EVE change. Its needed to try and prevent/reduce stagnation. As long as those rules are adhered to, it works. One of those rules is that CCP does not directly intervene unless another rule is broken, they just change the rules to prevent it from occurring again.
I'll leave rule enforcement up to CCP though you're changing the subject based on what you think my position is here.
Tallian Saotome wrote: Whining to CCP violates the spirit of the game.
Oh bullshit. CCP is first and foremost a business. They're not our mom. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:06:00 -
[999] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really.
Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it.
Funny As I was saying...
Lord Zim wrote:It's the age-old "you're mad, aren't you?" "no, I'm not." "yes, you so are. just look at you." "no, I'm not mad." "yeeeees you are, oh yes you are. you're so utterly mad." "sigh. go away please." "mad mad mad mad. you're mad. you're mad. you're mad." *punch in the face* "see? I told you you were mad." technique. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:07:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:well, Eula break again guy: "3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play"
Confirming that buying a $200 keyboard is against the EULA. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:07:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:interested in QA'ing, do it on the test server. this wasn't done on the test server because one huge aspect of the scheme wasn't possible on the test server Upgrading systems?
because this only involved upgrading systems and absolutely nothing else
cripes a rogue goon |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:08:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really.
Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it.
Funny As I was saying... Lord Zim wrote:It's the age-old "you're mad, aren't you?" "no, I'm not." "yes, you so are. just look at you." "no, I'm not mad." "yeeeees you are, oh yes you are. you're so utterly mad." "sigh. go away please." "mad mad mad mad. you're mad. you're mad. you're mad." *punch in the face* "see? I told you you were mad." technique.
I know right? A bunch of Goons just made tons of money and lp by gaming the system. Who would be mad about that besides the people who didn't get in on it and people who are mad at Goons anyway? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:09:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:because this only involved upgrading systems and absolutely nothing else
cripes I'd tell him about the price averages, but I'm not sure it'd dawn on him still. |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:09:00 -
[1004] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really.
Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it.
Funny As I was saying... Lord Zim wrote:It's the age-old "you're mad, aren't you?" "no, I'm not." "yes, you so are. just look at you." "no, I'm not mad." "yeeeees you are, oh yes you are. you're so utterly mad." "sigh. go away please." "mad mad mad mad. you're mad. you're mad. you're mad." *punch in the face* "see? I told you you were mad." technique. I know right? A bunch of Goons just made tons of money and lp by gaming the system. Who would be mad about that besides the people who didn't get in on it and people who are mad at Goons anyway? Would you have preferred that they didn't report the bug to Stoffer so everyone would have gotten on it? |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:10:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Mabego Tetrimon wrote:well, Eula break again guy: "3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play" Confirming that buying a $200 keyboard is against the EULA.
if you cant get the meaning, well shut up ;9
i am just hyperbole to give CCP a hint on how they might get their eggs in hand - means i have a low thinking of CCP sec, hm? |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:10:00 -
[1006] - Quote
That's it? That's your whole argument? You are still avoiding the question. Why should we separate our self from those 5? I'm sure you can answer the question, blubbering baby.[/quote]
LOL at you
Blubbering baby, is that it, you'll be complaining about my sig next
Tal
|
TomHorn
Horn and Brothers
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:10:00 -
[1007] - Quote
I for one bow down to our Goonie Overlords. Im just fuzzy little bear.
Nice hiest , enjoyed the right up.
Now lets all get back to our day jobs. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:10:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:well, Eula break again guy: "3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play"
I do have a recollection that CCP specifically said that G15-19 whatever keyboards don't break the eula on macros previously - but I also agree this is a probably a pretty significant edge case ... because yep, by the wording of that part of the eula its precisley what happened.
Interesting to see what the judgement will be on that really - I have no idea.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Wyle E Coyote
ACME WH INC.
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:11:00 -
[1009] - Quote
As much as i may get a good chuckle out of this **** war( i say d i c k cuz they won't let me use( p e n i s) lmao).. (players whackin each other with dildos like pillows) There seems to be one flaw in all design that everyone dances around but no one dare touch: it's not an exploit if it's in your favor.. am i correct?
Here let me spell it out for you neophytes - An exploit (from the verb to exploit, in the meaning of using something to oneGÇÖs own advantage) is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behaviour to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerised). This frequently includes such things as gaining control of a computer system or allowing privilege escalation or a denial-of-service attack.
Heaven help us all if this kind of idealogy crosses over into RL ... oh wait it already has. And Goons.. stop riding your own dicks it's never flattering to see.
"When the world is consumed of all its living you will consume each other and if you are the only one playing the game left alone in cold deep space it is you yourself you have to blame." |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:11:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:That's it? That's your whole argument? You are still avoiding the question. Why should we separate our self from those 5? I'm sure you can answer the question, blubbering baby. LOL at you Blubbering baby, is that it, you'll be complaining about my sig next Blubbering baby I don't have signature turned on. You still haven't answered the question, blubbering baby. |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:12:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Mabego Tetrimon wrote:well, Eula break again guy: "3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play" Confirming that buying a $200 keyboard is against the EULA. if you cant get the meaning, well shut up ;9
I'd return my keyboard to Best Buy, but it's outside of the return policy. What should I do so I don't get banned for owning a $200 keyboard? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:12:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Aareya wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:THERE WAS NO BUG. Just a poorly thought out formula, which was pointed out by multiple people many times prior to going live. CCP knew it was there, or is still ignoring the userbase(which they claim to have learned not to do). This deserves emphasis.
It really doesn't because there was clearly a bug in the initial double-counting of LP for "destruction" even when parts of the loot dropped. This WAS A BUG. People really need to read a little more closely.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:13:00 -
[1013] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Vokanic wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Vile rat wrote:Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. You could argure that having the value of the loot that dropped from the freighters available to process again whilst nonetheless counting in the isk value "destroyed" for LP was an abuse of a bug Vile Vat. You could argue that if Goons get Sreeg'd, you're next in line. Well hardly, I (and the rest of the Minmatar Militia) made our LP quite legally. You could say we benefitted from the tier 5 loyalty point store (and we did) but it would be quite easy to deduct the 6m loyalty points from any sum reclaimed from goons to justify that saturday's levels. It is after all, a tiny drop in the ocean.
Soooo... if CCP were to revert everything the goons did... does this mean AMARR VICTOR!?!?! |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:13:00 -
[1014] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really.
Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it. amazing how you haven't responded to my question why would we need to distance ourselves?
You guys need to answer that yourselves really, I believe you where the one that said it this thread that its not a Goon thing it was those 5 guys ?
How would I know why you wanted to distance yourself ?
Tal |
Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Exhale.
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:13:00 -
[1015] - Quote
bunch of carebears... that crap's industry ;) |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:14:00 -
[1016] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:How would I know why you wanted ti distance yourself ?
because any person capable of independent thought could see why we wouldn't need to
and i pointed out exactly why we wouldn't need to distance ourselves from it a rogue goon |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:15:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Actually the ones getting upset are you, getting hostile, changing sigs, I mean really.
Thread started "we" are goons "we" are leet look what we have done, thread ended , nuffin to do with us guv, nuffin I tell you. twas them that dun it. amazing how you haven't responded to my question why would we need to distance ourselves? You guys need to answer that yourselves really, I believe you where the one that said it this thread that its not a Goon thing it was those 5 guys ? How would I know why you wanted ti distance yourself ? Tal
That's not really how it works. You need to explain how and why they are distancing themselves.
See, you need to explain why you think that way because you were the one who said they were. That is how it works. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:15:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:That's it? That's your whole argument? You are still avoiding the question. Why should we separate our self from those 5? I'm sure you can answer the question, blubbering baby. LOL at you Tal , is that it, you'll be complaining about my sig next Tal I havent got a good argument so I'll start with the very weak personal attacks to try and make him mad
Fixed
Tal
|
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:16:00 -
[1019] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: I'd return my keyboard to Best Buy, but it's outside of the return policy. What should I do so I don't get banned for owning a $200 keyboard?
i am really sorry for you and your keyboars, really man....but wtf, play another game then. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:16:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:That's it? That's your whole argument? You are still avoiding the question. Why should we separate our self from those 5? I'm sure you can answer the question, blubbering baby. LOL at you Tal , is that it, you'll be complaining about my sig next Tal I havent got a good argument so I'll start with the very weak personal attacks to try and make him mad I may or may not have a mental disorder that makes me see and read things that aren't there. Tal We can do this all day Tal. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1358
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:16:00 -
[1021] - Quote
Why am I not surprised to find Jade in this thread, 51 pages on, trying everything he can to paint GSF in a bad light? - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:16:00 -
[1022] - Quote
"well gee that richard guy just shot down the only argument I had as to why GS would need to distance themselves from this situation, i guess the reason they would need to distance themselves is entirely beyond me, but I am sure those damn goonies are distancing themselves!!!!!" a rogue goon |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:17:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote: Fixed
blubbering baby
I don't get it? You're quite the aspy, are you? Have you seen a shrink lately? Now, we do not need to seperate ourselves from those 5 guys. In fact, we're glad that they exposed this flaw in CCP's design. Therefore your argument is invalid. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:17:00 -
[1024] - Quote
Well you could say that using your $200 keyboard in certain ways is quite okay, but admitting to using it to make 20,000 keypresses in a half dozen hours of automatic "click button get loot" action isn't okay. That really does fall directly into the Eula clause quoted above. I mean lets be honest, it really does - you'd need a pretty top lawyer to argue your way out of that conviction.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:18:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:How would I know why you wanted ti distance yourself? How would I know why you wanted to dance around in a unicorn dress? |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:19:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: I'd return my keyboard to Best Buy, but it's outside of the return policy. What should I do so I don't get banned for owning a $200 keyboard?
i am really sorry for you and your keyboars, really man....but wtf, play another game then. Really?
The point of my post was to say that buying a keyboard isn't against the EULA, nor is using the features of that keyboard. CCP made it a thing to say that they don't consider using the macro keyboards to be against the rules, specifically because Blizzard made a huge deal out of it and banned a whole bunch of people who used them. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:21:00 -
[1027] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Why am I not surprised to find Jade in this thread, 51 pages on, trying everything he can to paint GSF in a bad light?
You should have seen Jade in the first few pages. He was quite thankful to Goons for helping him make his 8.7 billion isk off this. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:21:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Why am I not surprised to find Jade in this thread, 51 pages on, trying everything he can to paint GSF in a bad light?
The really funny thing is that what Goons did directly benefited Jade. It is really difficult for someone in the Minmatar militia (during the time period goons were running this) to demand a rollback of what Goons made through this scheme, since a true rollback would impact them negatively as well. |
Karadion Kohlar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:21:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Well you could say that using your $200 keyboard in certain ways is quite okay, but admitting to using it to make 20,000 keypresses in a half dozen hours of automatic "click button get loot" action isn't okay. That really does fall directly into the Eula clause quoted above. I mean lets be honest, it really does - you'd need a pretty top lawyer to argue your way out of that conviction. Conviction? LOL. We got ourselves an internet lawyer here. Alert the CCP Bar Association! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:21:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Vokanic wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Vile rat wrote:Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics. You could argure that having the value of the loot that dropped from the freighters available to process again whilst nonetheless counting in the isk value "destroyed" for LP was an abuse of a bug Vile Vat. You could argue that if Goons get Sreeg'd, you're next in line. Well hardly, I (and the rest of the Minmatar Militia) made our LP quite legally. You could say we benefitted from the tier 5 loyalty point store (and we did) but it would be quite easy to deduct the 6m loyalty points from any sum reclaimed from goons to justify that saturday's levels. It is after all, a tiny drop in the ocean. Soooo... if CCP were to revert everything the goons did... does this mean AMARR VICTOR!?!?!
Hardly, because it wouldn't revert the system ownership and goons had precisely nothing to do with actually playing the territorial conquest aspect of FW. At worst it would lead to reduction in tiers in the warzone control that Minmatar players would need to put right with a collective 60 man hours of effort across the milita ... tbh, I can put in my two hours later on :) another 29 pilots and we're golden.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
Kyle Ward
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:22:00 -
[1031] - Quote
If only I had thought of exploiting, I too, could be spacerich... Poastin with my main |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:22:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Well you could say that using your $200 keyboard in certain ways is quite okay, but admitting to using it to make 20,000 keypresses in a half dozen hours of automatic "click button get loot" action isn't okay. That really does fall directly into the Eula clause quoted above. I mean lets be honest, it really does - you'd need a pretty top lawyer to argue your way out of that conviction.
actually no goon has admitted to have used the macros to get all the LP-stuff, yet, but well CCP has the logs....
PS: and for reference its more like ~200.000 keypresses, if you do it the regular way |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:22:00 -
[1033] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:How would I know why you wanted ti distance yourself? How would I know why you wanted to dance around in a unicorn dress?
Who told
Tal
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:23:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Why am I not surprised to find Jade in this thread, 51 pages on, trying everything he can to paint GSF in a bad light?
I'm really not, I'm trying to be pretty fair, if you can't see that then pfft, sorry mate you really are like that dude at the end of apocalypse now.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:24:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:That's it? That's your whole argument? You are still avoiding the question. Why should we separate our self from those 5? I'm sure you can answer the question, blubbering baby. LOL at you Tal , is that it, you'll be complaining about my sig next Tal I havent got a good argument so I'll start with the very weak personal attacks to try and make him mad I may or may not have a mental disorder that makes me see and read things that aren't there. Tal I love you and want your babies Tal.
We could
|
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:26:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Quote: That really is double counting and is creating (if not isk) then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.) Would you kindly understand the game mechanism before posting? |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:26:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:That's it? That's your whole argument? You are still avoiding the question. Why should we separate our self from those 5? I'm sure you can answer the question, blubbering baby. LOL at you Tal , is that it, you'll be complaining about my sig next Tal I havent got a good argument so I'll start with the very weak personal attacks to try and make him mad I may or may not have a mental disorder that makes me see and read things that aren't there. Tal I love you and want your babies Tal. We could
So your argument is dead then? Were you just ~*tHe PuPpEtMaStAh*~ the whole time? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:27:00 -
[1038] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Well you could say that using your $200 keyboard in certain ways is quite okay, but admitting to using it to make 20,000 keypresses in a half dozen hours of automatic "click button get loot" action isn't okay. That really does fall directly into the Eula clause quoted above. I mean lets be honest, it really does - you'd need a pretty top lawyer to argue your way out of that conviction.
How did it accelerate acquisition? A person wants to buy 100 implants, at once, from the LP store. They have the LP to do so. The limitations of the system prevent them from doing so.
End of the day, the LP wasn't acquired via macros. they got the same amount regardless if they use them or not. Unless you'd like to argue that waiting for market transactions to process is 'game play' |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:28:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: Really?
The point of my post was to say that buying a keyboard isn't against the EULA, nor is using the features of that keyboard.
REALLY? i suggest you read the Eula before you log on next time.
"3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play" (left out additional things, to help you straight it out. |
Kyle Ward
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:29:00 -
[1040] - Quote
This thread is now about keyboards! Poastin with my main |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:29:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Really?
The point of my post was to say that buying a keyboard isn't against the EULA, nor is using the features of that keyboard.
REALLY? i suggest you read the Eula before you log on next time. "3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play" (left out additional things, to help you straight it out.
i guess everyone who ever used their G15s to activate all of their guns before weapon grouping was introduced should all get immediate permabans
fess up a rogue goon |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:30:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Vokanic wrote: How did it accelerate acquisition? A person wants to buy 100 implants, at once, from the LP store. They have the LP to do so. The limitations of the system prevent them from doing so.
End of the day, the LP wasn't acquired via macros. they got the same amount regardless if they use them or not. Unless you'd like to argue that waiting for market transactions to process is 'game play'
i see a BIG difference between using 14 hours of clicking time by hand (as it should be by ordinary game play) and like dk 5 minutes of using a Macro. You Sir not? |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:30:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Khanh'rhh wrote:Why am I not surprised to find Jade in this thread, 51 pages on, trying everything he can to paint GSF in a bad light? I'm really not, I'm trying to be pretty fair, if you can't see that then pfft, sorry mate you really are like that dude at the end of apocalypse now. So, care to tell us more about how we can convert LPs directly into ISK? |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:30:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Really?
The point of my post was to say that buying a keyboard isn't against the EULA, nor is using the features of that keyboard.
REALLY? i suggest you read the Eula before you log on next time. "3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play" (left out additional things, to help you straight it out.
How does a macro help them get more LP?? Since when did buying stuff from the LP market become a skill based on how fast you can click through the UI because you cant purchase more then 1 at once? |
Amarr Ian
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:32:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Aryth writes a WALL OF TEXT braging while stroking his ePeen, and losses all the isk he's made awsome. |
Kmelx
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:33:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Well you could say that using your $200 keyboard in certain ways is quite okay, but admitting to using it to make 20,000 keypresses in a half dozen hours of automatic "click button get loot" action isn't okay. That really does fall directly into the Eula clause quoted above. I mean lets be honest, it really does - you'd need a pretty top lawyer to argue your way out of that conviction.
If CCP coded Loyalty Point stores in a way that actually worked, by allowing you to select a box and to select the number of items you want then the keyboard would not be necessary. It's difficult to criticise them for using macros via a keyboard when the LP store is so badly designed and could be so easily fixed by CCP. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:33:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Vokanic wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Well you could say that using your $200 keyboard in certain ways is quite okay, but admitting to using it to make 20,000 keypresses in a half dozen hours of automatic "click button get loot" action isn't okay. That really does fall directly into the Eula clause quoted above. I mean lets be honest, it really does - you'd need a pretty top lawyer to argue your way out of that conviction. How did it accelerate acquisition? A person wants to buy 100 implants, at once, from the LP store. They have the LP to do so. The limitations of the system prevent them from doing so. End of the day, the LP wasn't acquired via macros. they got the same amount regardless if they use them or not. Unless you'd like to argue that waiting for market transactions to process is 'game play'
Well, it takes a lot of keypresses, previously when I've bought datacores from the loyalty point store I've spent 15 mins getting a few thousand out, gotten bored and then shrugged and blown my lps on fleet stabbers instead.
One can assume that most players would draw the line at sitting at their keyboard clicking accept for 14 hours and consider it a pretty poor return for their gaming enjoyment. If a keyboard marco was used to automate that process of collecting goodies then sure ... it kinda is facilitating the acquisition of items at an accelerated rate because I don't think you actually could match a keyboard macro for FOURTEEN HOURS of manual clicking!
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Riyal
Chode Extravaganza
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:33:00 -
[1048] - Quote
Totally haven't read past page 10, but well done on beating the fw system. Its impressive what can come from a lot of people worming together. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:33:00 -
[1049] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote:Aryth writes a WALL OF TEXT braging while stroking his ePeen, and losses all the isk he's made awsome.
even if they take away the ISK he made from this he's still ballin' rich a rogue goon |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:33:00 -
[1050] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Vokanic wrote: How did it accelerate acquisition? A person wants to buy 100 implants, at once, from the LP store. They have the LP to do so. The limitations of the system prevent them from doing so.
End of the day, the LP wasn't acquired via macros. they got the same amount regardless if they use them or not. Unless you'd like to argue that waiting for market transactions to process is 'game play'
i see a BIG difference between using 14 hours of clicking time by hand (as it should be by ordinary game play) and like dk 5 minutes of using a Macro. You Sir not?
You want each implant purchase to take over 5 minutes? |
|
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:34:00 -
[1051] - Quote
Vokanic wrote:
How does a macro help them get more LP?? Since when did buying stuff from the LP market become a skill based on how fast you can click through the UI because you cant purchase more then 1 at once?
read before post please.
To aquire that lot of items in a regular way the goons needed aprox 14 hours of regular clicking OR using a macro.
The use of Macro is baned for aquiring items (not for firing guns, btw) by Eula. IF they did it with Macro they broke the Eula on that too. |
Amarr Ian
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:35:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:Aryth writes a WALL OF TEXT braging while stroking his ePeen, and losses all the isk he's made awsome. even if they take away the ISK he made from this he's still ballin' rich
Not the point still funny as ****, Enjoy the dry eyes Goons |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:35:00 -
[1053] - Quote
I really don't see why one isn't simply able to type in a desired quantity of a given item in the LP store. You have the LP, you have the ISK - why not? v0v a rogue goon |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:36:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote:Not the point still funny as ****, Enjoy the dry eyes Goons
okay Amarr Ian forum alt guy a rogue goon |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:36:00 -
[1055] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Aareya wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:THERE WAS NO BUG. Just a poorly thought out formula, which was pointed out by multiple people many times prior to going live. CCP knew it was there, or is still ignoring the userbase(which they claim to have learned not to do). This deserves emphasis. It really doesn't because there was clearly a bug in the initial double-counting of LP for "destruction" even when parts of the loot dropped. This WAS A BUG. People really need to read a little more closely. The LP for dropped item was a bug, it was reported and almost immediately fixed.
And yes, you are allowed to test a bug as 'Proof of concept' before reporting it, as long as you are not going out of your way to exploit it. You are even allowed to gain an advantage during the process of proving it, but this is the ONE place in the entire scheme that might be sketchy. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:37:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:Aryth writes a WALL OF TEXT braging while stroking his ePeen, and losses all the isk he's made awsome. even if they take away the ISK he made from this he's still ballin' rich Not the point still funny as ****, Enjoy the dry eyes Goons
Yeah, no really. Aryth is still crazy rich even if CCP takes his FW money away. (Which is actually just tied up in items and blueprints and some still in LP. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:38:00 -
[1057] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:I really don't see why one isn't simply able to type in a desired quantity of a given item in the LP store. You have the LP, you have the ISK - why not? v0v
I don't disagree. The current interface is a joke. But thats as may be, - its a joke that everyone has to put up with. If in this case (and we obviously don't know for sure) 14 hours of manual clicking accept has been bypassed by use of a keyboard macro - that probably is a clear case of gaining an unfair advantage through automation and should trigger the eula clause.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:38:00 -
[1058] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:I really don't see why one isn't simply able to type in a desired quantity of a given item in the LP store. You have the LP, you have the ISK - why not? v0v
i would like to see that too. But its not actual in the game and might be for a reason? Or not - who knows ;)
still, using a macro for acquiring items at large scale breaks the Eula. |
Amarr Ian
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:40:00 -
[1059] - Quote
It doesn't matter how much isk he has. Its the fact of the massive post for an epic fail. |
tgl3
Black Rebel Rifter Club
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:40:00 -
[1060] - Quote
Every time I think I understand this game someone comes along and produces something which blows my mind. It's a bit unfair. Blog - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
|
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:40:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote:It doesn't matter how much isk he has. Its the fact of the massive post for an epic fail. Tell us more about this ... "epic fail". |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:41:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Yeah, no really. Aryth is still crazy rich even if CCP takes his FW money away. (Which is actually just tied up in items and blueprints and some still in LP.
and even if it did happen, I doubt that any of the people who would inevitably gloat over it will ever accomplish anything even mediocre in comparison
believe me i do look forward to rubbing it in their faces a rogue goon |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:41:00 -
[1063] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:I really don't see why one isn't simply able to type in a desired quantity of a given item in the LP store. You have the LP, you have the ISK - why not? v0v I don't disagree. The current interface is a joke. But thats as may be, - its a joke that everyone has to put up with. If in this case (and we obviously don't know for sure) 14 hours of manual clicking accept has been bypassed by use of a keyboard macro - that probably is a clear case of gaining an unfair advantage through automation and should trigger the eula clause. Tell us more about converting LP directly into ISK, thus spawning ISK from thin air. |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:41:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Vokanic wrote:
How does a macro help them get more LP?? Since when did buying stuff from the LP market become a skill based on how fast you can click through the UI because you cant purchase more then 1 at once?
read before post please. To aquire that lot of items in a regular way the goons needed aprox 14 hours of regular clicking OR using a macro. The use of Macro is baned for aquiring items (not for firing guns, btw) by Eula. IF they did it with Macro they broke the Eula on that too.
Here's an experiment for you to try.
Open the LP store. Put your mouse over the accept button on the item you want to buy Click the left mouse button Hit enter on the keyboard. Repeat the last 2 steps as fast as possible.
With the time taken for the game to process the request, you'll get the same amount of items as if you used a macro over the same amount of time.
In fact a macro would need a delay programmed into it, otherwise half your clicks, and half your 'enter's would miss their intended place in the process. It simply removes the risk of RSI in that case |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:42:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Ahh c'mon.
It's pretty obvious that CCP just totally meta gamed GSF, derr... Ofc CCP knew about this before inferno went live, and Ofc CCP knew Goons would game it thinking they were clever. Right?
Now CCP devs are all down the pub clincking drinks and deciding how hard to swing the ban hammer.
No seriously, thanks for the entertainment goonies, its why we all love eve. Keep it up. |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:44:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Goons do something that makes people angry. People get Angry. People demand Bans. Goons Troll those people. Cycle continues until end of time or the thread is locked. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:44:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote: The LP for dropped item was a bug, it was reported and almost immediately fixed. And yes, you are allowed to test a bug as 'Proof of concept' before reporting it, as long as you are not going out of your way to exploit it. You are even allowed to gain an advantage during the process of proving it, but this is the ONE place in the entire scheme that might be sketchy.
Aryth wrote: (from the op) The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again. CCP reacted quickly and patched this out, but the damage was done (not that it really mattered since it would merely have delayed the inevitable); the cabal had our GÇ£seedGÇ¥ LP.
This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
698
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:45:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Mac Zehn wrote:we are the goldman sache of eve
Some kind of sack anyway, but well played sirs, well played. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:45:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project. I guess you're not going to tell us how we can convert LP directly into ISK, thus spawning ISK out of thin air, are you? |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:46:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Vokanicq wrote: In fact a macro would need a delay programmed into it, otherwise half your clicks, and half your 'enter's would miss their intended place in the process. It simply removes the risk of RSI in that case
i dont care if it takes away risk or take even more time to use a macro to aquire that kind of items from the LP Store. Its irrelevant.
Whats relevant is, that using the macro for that breaks the Eula. |
|
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:48:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project. I guess you're not going to tell us how we can convert LP directly into ISK, thus spawning ISK out of thin air, are you?
Wow, 50 pages and you guys are still going at it. Feel free to continue, this takes the edge off the bordem of Ice Mining. |
Dasrufken
Black Sun Co.
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:48:00 -
[1072] - Quote
As much as I hate to admit it, you goons are actually pretty ******* awesome for doing something like this as regularly as you do. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:49:00 -
[1073] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Vokanicq wrote: In fact a macro would need a delay programmed into it, otherwise half your clicks, and half your 'enter's would miss their intended place in the process. It simply removes the risk of RSI in that case
i dont care if it takes away risk or take even more time to use a macro to aquire that kind of items from the LP Store. Its irrelevant. Whats relevant is, that using the macro for that breaks the Eula. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76689 |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:50:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it.
https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801
any comments?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:51:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:Goons do something that makes people angry. People get Angry. People demand Bans. Goons Troll those people. Cycle continues until end of time or the thread is locked.
Only that their doings have the ability to break the FW-LP-items market for a looooong time, and in consequence breaks the new FW all together.
Thats why i rage. I like the new FW features a lot from a simple gamer point of view. And i dont want it to get broken by some pubbies who manipulated the market, broke the Eula and claim respect for winning a war they did not do a iota for.
|
Fenella
Dangermouse Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:52:00 -
[1076] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:I guess you're not going to tell us how we can convert LP directly into ISK, thus spawning ISK out of thin air, are you?
Give it a rest...
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein, (attributed)
|
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:53:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it. https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801any comments? Yes, Aryth is bad at twitter and leaked it inadvertedly. So you weren't full of **** when it came to the document, and I was wrong.
Now, about that spawning ISK from thin air through converting LPs, again? |
Amarr Ian
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:53:00 -
[1078] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:It doesn't matter how much isk he has. Its the fact of the massive post for an epic fail. Tell us more about this ... "epic fail".
Just re-read the first post in this thread |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:53:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Vokanicq wrote: In fact a macro would need a delay programmed into it, otherwise half your clicks, and half your 'enter's would miss their intended place in the process. It simply removes the risk of RSI in that case
i dont care if it takes away risk or take even more time to use a macro to aquire that kind of items from the LP Store. Its irrelevant. Whats relevant is, that using the macro for that breaks the Eula.
You do know that the rule you were quoting does specifically say if it speeds up acquisition? It is therefore perfectly legal for me to use a macro, if its slower then what I can manually click.
I can spend an hour manually collecting my 100 implants, or set a macro overnight and have it take 8 hours, very slowly. It takes longer then normal gameplay, I still get the implants, and its totally within the rules.
|
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:54:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: i dont care if it takes away risk or take even more time to use a macro to aquire that kind of items from the LP Store. Its irrelevant.
Whats relevant is, that using the macro for that breaks the Eula.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76689[/quote]
ya really bad at propaganda----sigh
so? Where is the Dev post that says: "Using Macro to acquire large stacks of items you otherwise need 14 hours of clicking for is allowed?" |
|
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:55:00 -
[1081] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:It doesn't matter how much isk he has. Its the fact of the massive post for an epic fail. Tell us more about this ... "epic fail". Just re-read the first post in this thread I'm not understanding what the "epic fail" is there. Please elucidate. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:56:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Well best GM reply I could find.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=889308#post889308
Quote:GM Lelouch wrote:
Hello there,
To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.
Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).
An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!
Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.
I hope this clears up this matter.
Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support
Its not really a perfect judgement because obviously automating a mouse click followed by a "enter" is not really complex - but it is automating a process that would not require you to be at your keyboard for 14 hours.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:57:00 -
[1083] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Vokanicq wrote: In fact a macro would need a delay programmed into it, otherwise half your clicks, and half your 'enter's would miss their intended place in the process. It simply removes the risk of RSI in that case
i dont care if it takes away risk or take even more time to use a macro to aquire that kind of items from the LP Store. Its irrelevant. Whats relevant is, that using the macro for that breaks the Eula. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76689 And Goons complain of AFK mining. I mean really, are you playing the game? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:58:00 -
[1084] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Nikodiemus wrote:The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.
I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^ We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering. You did not report the other pseudo-exploit that can still be done as I write... I found out about it yesterday about 1 hour before this thread was posted. I suppose CCP's code has multiple vulnerabilities...
We have reported several variations. There are indeed multiple ways to take advantage of this. I can only assume CCP will redo some of the mechanics to catch all variations. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:58:00 -
[1085] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: So your argument is dead then? Were you just ~*tHe PuPpEtMaStAh*~ the whole time?
Nope still valid IME, I've answered the questions, if you don't understand the simple premise, or more likely don't have the same view point, then nothing I will say will change that.
Lets agree to disagree.
Tal |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:58:00 -
[1086] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:so? Where is the Dev post that says: "Using Macro to acquire large stacks of items you otherwise need 14 hours of clicking for is allowed?" I guess you didn't scroll down and read the quote, then, because it outlines precisely what is and isn't allowed? |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:59:00 -
[1087] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:It doesn't matter how much isk he has. Its the fact of the massive post for an epic fail. Tell us more about this ... "epic fail". Just re-read the first post in this thread I'm not understanding what the "epic fail" is there. Please elucidate. What's there to explain? How about "what the ... 'epic fail' is"? |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:01:00 -
[1088] - Quote
I hope there are some actual repercussions for the massive abuse of in game systems. This is just ridiculous. |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:04:00 -
[1089] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mabego Tetrimon wrote:so? Where is the Dev post that says: "Using Macro to acquire large stacks of items you otherwise need 14 hours of clicking for is allowed?" I guess you didn't scroll down and read the quote, then, because it outlines precisely what is and isn't allowed?
You mean the GM saying:
"If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed,"
fits perfectly here: guy uses a macro for not sitting at his keyboard clicking for 14 hours....
thanks Sir |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:07:00 -
[1090] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:It doesn't matter how much isk he has. Its the fact of the massive post for an epic fail. Tell us more about this ... "epic fail". Just re-read the first post in this thread I'm not understanding what the "epic fail" is there. Please elucidate.
See... a Goon posted, therefore. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:07:00 -
[1091] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1517044#post1517044
Macros that slow down acquisition are within the rules. Also goons saying they use macros isn't exactly proof.. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:07:00 -
[1092] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Thank you for a couple hours of interesting reading. corestwo had been acting even slyer than usual in -lounge so I figured something was still up. :-)
I'm not going to weigh in on either side. I made it very clear a while back that I've had my experience with SA back in SL, and the rest of y'all can duke it out this time. :-p
I *am* waiting to see what Screegs will say though. *That* will be a popcorn moment for sure, forget this here.
I constantly troll him for hanging in that terrible channel. However, it's been pretty funny at times getting the running commentary when we go after one of the scc residents and get live feedback in there. So I guess him hanging there brings some value. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:08:00 -
[1093] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:You mean the GM saying:
"If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed,"
fits perfectly here: guy uses a macro for not sitting at his keyboard clicking for 14 hours....
thanks Sir Oh, so you're assuming he presses a single key and the keyboard just keeps looping through a purchasing loop, so they could leave the machine for 14 hours?
That explains a lot. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:10:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Amarr Ian wrote:It doesn't matter how much isk he has. Its the fact of the massive post for an epic fail. Tell us more about this ... "epic fail". Just re-read the first post in this thread I'm not understanding what the "epic fail" is there. Please elucidate. What's there to explain?
I wish I could report people for using "epic fail". Oh well, I guess I'll just have to settle for trolling, contentless posts, going off topic and inciting others to go offtopic as well. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:11:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mabego Tetrimon wrote:You mean the GM saying:
"If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed,"
fits perfectly here: guy uses a macro for not sitting at his keyboard clicking for 14 hours....
thanks Sir Oh, so you're assuming he presses a single key and the keyboard just keeps looping through a purchasing loop, so they could leave the machine for 14 hours? That explains a lot.
You know what happens when someone assumes. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:11:00 -
[1096] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:I wish I could report people for using "epic fail". Oh well, I guess I'll just have to settle for trolling, contentless posts, going off topic and inciting others to go offtopic as well.
deadtear for eve-o mod
(oh god no) a rogue goon |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:12:00 -
[1097] - Quote
oh god yes |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:13:00 -
[1098] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:oh god yes
shift key 3d r/o a rogue goon |
Dark Assassin15
Failed Diplomacy
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:15:00 -
[1099] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Can i get the goons QQ mails when you fix the bank, plxandthnkx [img]http://www.invokemethod.com/repo/failedsig.png[/img] |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:17:00 -
[1100] - Quote
Dark Assassin15 wrote:Can i get the goons QQ mails when you fix the bank, plxandthnkx
they'd just have to placate themselves with the gigantic amounts of ISK they already had a rogue goon |
|
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:18:00 -
[1101] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Lord Zim wrote:oh god yes shift key 3d r/o :smith: |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:19:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Dark Assassin15 wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Can i get the goons QQ mails when you fix the bank, plxandthnkx
These forums deserve a higher class of troll. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Harbonah
A-OK Logistics and Fabrication StoneGuard Alliance
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:21:00 -
[1103] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Public threats without public execution is shameful. I want to see the equivilant of the goon's being put in the stocks on public display so I can throw rotten fruit at them. I'd like to see a Concord wanted page added to main page. This page should have the names of EVE Criminals, how much they duped/exploited in ISK and their punishment on public display. Sort of like the criminal photos you see in your hometown newspaper. It would be fitting since they like to rub CCP's mistakes in their face.
On another note: Kudos to the genius that thought this plan up. Requires planning on a scale not typically used outside corporate or military circles. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:21:00 -
[1104] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Dark Assassin15 wrote:Can i get the goons QQ mails when you fix the bank, plxandthnkx they'd just have to placate themselves with the gigantic amounts of ISK they already had
Instead of swimming in their pile of isk the size of Mt. Everest they'll just have to settle for the Matterhorn. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:24:00 -
[1105] - Quote
My eve guy literally swims in a Scrooge McDuck style vault of isk |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:25:00 -
[1106] - Quote
while we're on the subject: ccp please make it an option to buy multiples of a lp item
datacores will be artificially high forever just due to the hours of click-enterclick-enter you need to do |
Ford Hakata
Hakata Group
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:26:00 -
[1107] - Quote
Holy batsh*t, sell everything, Alfred! |
Amarr Ian
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:31:00 -
[1108] - Quote
How about you tell me how this didn't fail. I'm not saying that it wasn't a good idea, but what did happen, is that they broadcast-ed what they were doing, (while bragging their a**** off) and lost all the hard? earned ISK.
Now please tell me how this wasn't a fail.
|
Gun Gal
Dark Club
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:32:00 -
[1109] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:Gun Gal wrote:I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well. . See, that's the problem here. You played Ultima Online. Now we're talking 5 people and you are trying to encourage CCP to ban 4000+ accounts because of those 5? That's 60K smacks per month they'd lose. Good thing they don't listen to morons like you.
Uo was arguably the best sandbox game ever until it was broken up into pieces. If you never experienced it, too bad for you.
So, in your reasoning, only 5 people were to blame for **** Germany, and everyone else was just along for the ride?
and so what? Loosing 4k asshats bent on abusing the game would most likely bring in 20000 more subscriptions. There is a difference between being competitive and what the goons are doing. Short term pain long game. |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:35:00 -
[1110] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Gun Gal wrote:I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well. . See, that's the problem here. You played Ultima Online. Now we're talking 5 people and you are trying to encourage CCP to ban 4000+ accounts because of those 5? That's 60K smacks per month they'd lose. Good thing they don't listen to morons like you. Uo was arguably the best sandbox game ever until it was broken up into pieces. If you never experienced it, too bad for you. So, in your reasoning, only 5 people were to blame for **** Germany, and everyone else was just along for the ride? and so what? Loosing 4k asshats bent on abusing the game would most likely bring in 20000 more subscriptions. There is a difference between being competitive and what the goons are doing. Short term pain long game.
No you misunderstand. Only 5 or so people in the game even knew about this while they were working up their proof of concept. This wasn't sponsored by goonswarm, it was just accomplished by a few guys doing their own thing in goonswarm. |
|
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp.
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:35:00 -
[1111] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:infact, is it my imagination or does the topic of this thread pretty much mimic the current UK news story about jimmy carr?
you mean where he was caught abusing tax loopholes to pay less tax than someone working as a cleaner on several million -ú stirling? :)
basicly he in effect reduced his tax bill down to effectively 1%, which is ironic considering his comedy sketch on one UK bank's 1% tax avoidance "offer" lol |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:35:00 -
[1112] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote: How about you tell me how this didn't fail. I'm not saying that it wasn't a good idea, but what did happen, is that they broadcast-ed what they were doing, (while bragging their a**** off) and lost all the hard? earned ISK.
Now please tell me how this wasn't a fail.
Well, you're the one insisting that it IS a failure. So why don't you tell us how helping to fix a mechanic while also getting paid phat stacks of cash is a failure? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Khergit Deserters
Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:37:00 -
[1113] - Quote
Isn't this what is called an exploit? |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:38:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Isn't this what is called an exploit?
No more than logging on is. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:40:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:So, in your reasoning, only 5 people were to blame for **** Germany, and everyone else was just along for the ride? Yes, 5 guys planning and executing this heist is literally like ****** and his staff firing every gun in WW2.
Gun Gal wrote:Loosing 4k asshats bent on abusing the game would most likely bring in 20000 more subscriptions. I beg to differ. We create more content than probably any other alliance in EVE today, and the general reception in this thread alone is surprisingly positive. Eerily so. It's only people like you, who I presume have been scammed or similar by us before, who seem to have a jalapenos-stick up their butt about the whole deal. |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
176
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:45:00 -
[1116] - Quote
people always cry about the 'sandbox' when other people play the 'sandbox' differently to them
'sandbox' isn't a synonym for 'the game as i want it'
also, 'sandbox' is a child's plaything, and are we not men? jade, you don't have to answer this. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
818
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:47:00 -
[1117] - Quote
Things are going well, I hope nobody spoils them. EVE is Serious Business: You shall not feel entitled to being allowed to play EVE just because you are paying it. |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:48:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:people always cry about the 'sandbox' when other people play the 'sandbox' differently to them
'sandbox' isn't a synonym for 'the game as i want it'
also, 'sandbox' is a child's plaything, and are we not men? jade, you don't have to answer this.
Remember kids, don't eat the sand, animals poop in there. |
Amarr Ian
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:51:00 -
[1119] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Amarr Ian wrote: How about you tell me how this didn't fail. I'm not saying that it wasn't a good idea, but what did happen, is that they broadcast-ed what they were doing, (while bragging their a**** off) and lost all the hard? earned ISK.
Now please tell me how this wasn't a fail.
Well, you're the one insisting that it IS a failure. So why don't you tell us how helping to fix a mechanic while also getting paid phat stacks of cash is a failure?
But they haven't got fat sacks of cash from this so....................... fail
And luckily its not my job to fix the game. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:51:00 -
[1120] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote:But they haven't got fat sacks of cash from this so....................... fail
And luckily its not my job to fix the game. Have their spoils been taken away from them already? |
|
Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:52:00 -
[1121] - Quote
I have a problem to understand this whole claimed LP shop heist by Goons.
If I look at the items, which the Goons should have purchased in the Minmatar LP shop, they are not crashed yet. So either the Goons lied about the magnitude of their LP shop heist or they still have most of the items, they exchanged in the Fw shop in their hangars or have not exchanged the LPs in anything so far. This would lead to the next question: What will they do with it, if they really have it? Will we see Goon fleets with Republic fleet equipment and with +5 implants and hardwirings in their pods? Will they try to feed their stocks of RF items slowly in the market?
I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:54:00 -
[1122] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote: I have a problem to understand this whole claimed LP shop heist by Goons.
If I look at the items, which the Goons should have purchased in the Minmatar LP shop, they are not crashed yet. So either the Goons lied about the magnitude of their LP shop heist or they still have most of the items, they exchanged in the Fw shop in their hangars or have not exchanged the LPs in anything so far. This would lead to the next question: What will they do with it, if they really have it? Will we see Goon fleets with Republic fleet equipment and with +5 implants and hardwirings in their pods? Will they try to feed their stocks of RF items slowly in the market?
I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
Switzerland |
Signal11th
535
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:56:00 -
[1123] - Quote
TL DR:
Someone figured out a way of doing something they weren't supposed to, may or may not have made serious cash out of it. Some people aren't happy because they didn't get their hands on any of it.
***
This is one of the reasons I love EVE the fact you can even do this type of stuff, don't knock it, appreciate it!!! God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:59:00 -
[1124] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote: I have a problem to understand this whole claimed LP shop heist by Goons.
If I look at the items, which the Goons should have purchased in the Minmatar LP shop, they are not crashed yet. So either the Goons lied about the magnitude of their LP shop heist or they still have most of the items, they exchanged in the Fw shop in their hangars or have not exchanged the LPs in anything so far. This would lead to the next question: What will they do with it, if they really have it? Will we see Goon fleets with Republic fleet equipment and with +5 implants and hardwirings in their pods? Will they try to feed their stocks of RF items slowly in the market?
I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
The answer to your question is that the goon leadership will be paying their eve subs with plex for about 17,000 years.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Fenella
Dangermouse Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:59:00 -
[1125] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote: I have a problem to understand this whole claimed LP shop heist by Goons.
If I look at the items, which the Goons should have purchased in the Minmatar LP shop, they are not crashed yet. So either the Goons lied about the magnitude of their LP shop heist or they still have most of the items, they exchanged in the Fw shop in their hangars or have not exchanged the LPs in anything so far. This would lead to the next question: What will they do with it, if they really have it? Will we see Goon fleets with Republic fleet equipment and with +5 implants and hardwirings in their pods? Will they try to feed their stocks of RF items slowly in the market?
I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
Switzerland
The Greek population is asking the same questions... |
Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:02:00 -
[1126] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:
Switzerland
you mean like the Marcos Billions? I can live with that, because Switzerland confiscated them. Usually if dictators lose their power, Switzerland confiscates the money and either pays it to a legit new government or keep it silently in their wallet.
@ jade: that would mean what? They cashed in already or not? I would say, they did not cash in the most part of what they claim to have. The market history did not change much in the last days. |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:08:00 -
[1127] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:Dramaticus wrote:
Switzerland
you mean like the Marcos Billions? I can live with that, because Switzerland confiscated them. Usually if dictators lose their power, Switzerland confiscates the money and either pays it to a legit new government or keep it silently in their wallet. @ jade: that would mean what? They cashed in already or not? I would say, they did not cash in the most part of what they claim to have. The market history did not change much in the last days.
You don't cash in all at once. You trickle over a long period of time as to not affect the price of the item that you're trying to sell.
Only morons dump what they're sitting on into the markets (and this is why the mineral market is crashing downward -- morons) |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
576
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:09:00 -
[1128] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:while we're on the subject: ccp please make it an option to buy multiples of a lp item
datacores will be artificially high forever just due to the hours of click-enterclick-enter you need to do
In the days leading up to the fail that was 'Incarna' there was some talk about the Nex store and the LP store. In short as far as I can remember the LP store code is rather... crap old. And having to rewrite that is going to take them a long, long time. I think there was some suggestion to move the LP to the Nex except that the Nex is another half build working piece of code that is introduced into EVE, reason why CCP wanted to "test" the waters with a Scorpion out of thin air with custom colors on it in exchange for arum, of course that went a bit too far for some of CCP's customers. So it looks like you'll have to wait for either a total recoded LP store or by some miracle someone finishes the Nex store so it can also handle LP stuff.
To be honest after CCP nerved my R&D agents into the ground, I'm not objecting to an artificial high due to a Diablo-esk clickethyclick fest. Gives me back something for my time wasted on grinding level 4 R&D agents.
Ok back to your usual.. something something.
Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm... |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:09:00 -
[1129] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote: I have a problem to understand this whole claimed LP shop heist by Goons.
If I look at the items, which the Goons should have purchased in the Minmatar LP shop, they are not crashed yet. So either the Goons lied about the magnitude of their LP shop heist or they still have most of the items, they exchanged in the Fw shop in their hangars or have not exchanged the LPs in anything so far. This would lead to the next question: What will they do with it, if they really have it? Will we see Goon fleets with Republic fleet equipment and with +5 implants and hardwirings in their pods? Will they try to feed their stocks of RF items slowly in the market?
I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
The answer to your question is that the goon leadership will be paying their eve subs with plex for about 17,000 years.
Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:12:00 -
[1130] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:The answer to your question is that the goon leadership will be paying their eve subs with plex for about 17,000 years. That sounds like a rumor, much like the "turn LP into ISK out of thin air" phrase. |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:13:00 -
[1131] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project. You know, we can say its a bug, but we don't really actually know if it was a bug or if ccp just went "You know, double rewarding players doesn't make any sense, does it." |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:14:00 -
[1132] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:Karadion Kohlar wrote:Gun Gal wrote:I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well. . See, that's the problem here. You played Ultima Online. Now we're talking 5 people and you are trying to encourage CCP to ban 4000+ accounts because of those 5? That's 60K smacks per month they'd lose. Good thing they don't listen to morons like you. Uo was arguably the best sandbox game ever until it was broken up into pieces. If you never experienced it, too bad for you. So, in your reasoning, only 5 people were to blame for **** Germany, and everyone else was just along for the ride? and so what? Loosing 4k asshats bent on abusing the game would most likely bring in 20000 more subscriptions. There is a difference between being competitive and what the goons are doing. Short term pain long game. Godwin. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:15:00 -
[1133] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:17:00 -
[1134] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc. Are you implying that T3s are the "one and only ship needed for subcap SOV warfare because they're expensive"? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:18:00 -
[1135] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project. You know, we can say its a bug, but we don't really actually know if it was a bug or if ccp just went "You know, double rewarding players doesn't make any sense, does it."
We mostly used some dramatic license. We don't know CCP's intention around the calculation of LP. This particular thing though was mostly irrelevant. Maybe 50m SP. It mostly meant we didn't lose truckloads of ISK when we were setting this all up. We spent billions (in broker fees) manipulating the item price up. Then hundreds of billions of real ISK stuff seeding ourselves. This only really kicked into high gear if you were willing to spend millions of LP donating to a faction. So many more 10's of billions spent in donations.
The cost to do this was sky high, you needed hundreds of billions in capital to attempt this at this scale. We blew all our liquid ISK and have effectively invested it in items we intend to sell off a the highest prices possible. Anyone who knows the implant market knows it's a top 20 market in EVE. It can hold enormous amounts of capital. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:18:00 -
[1136] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.
Who knows what goes on in the minds of such men? Maybe he will use it to buy plex and donate it to some relief fund. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:21:00 -
[1137] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:[quote=Carlos Aranda] Are you implying that T3s are the "one and only ship needed for subcap SOV warfare because they're expensive"?
They should not be expensiv, if you really are filfthy rich. Or you could upgrade the Maelstroms in Machariels. I.e. Snuff box fly a Machariel fleet without owning Tech moons or LP shop heist.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:21:00 -
[1138] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.
I would be extremely counterproductive for us to do that. The whole point is to profit as much as possible. You do not do that crushing markets long term. The markets only took impact for a short period because we needed liquidity. Think of it like a loop feeding off the market to get more capital. We would cycle ISK out of faction ships/implants/cores so that we could get to goal.
Think of it like this.
Would you invest 500b in liquid ISK to get 5T worth of assets? That is basically what was done. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:23:00 -
[1139] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc. Who knows what goes on in the minds of such men? Maybe he will use it to buy plex and donate it to some relief fund.
The fact that you would confuse us for VV...yeah, we actually find that kind of offensive.
Carlos Aranda wrote: They should not be expensiv, if you really are filfthy rich. Or you could upgrade the Maelstroms in Machariels. I.e. Snuff box fly a Machariel fleet without owning Tech moons or LP shop heist.
You're once again operating under the assumption that all of goonswarm participated, which is not the case. Although goonswarm does already reimburse machariels in fleet ops, you just have to have a ridiculously high level of skills to qualify. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1061
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:24:00 -
[1140] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Mabego Tetrimon wrote:well, Eula break again guy: "3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play" Confirming that buying a $200 keyboard is against the EULA. Mainly because you should be spending that on AUR My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
|
Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:29:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc. I would be extremely counterproductive for us to do that. The whole point is to profit as much as possible. You do not do that crushing markets long term. The markets only took impact for a short period because we needed liquidity. Think of it like a loop feeding off the market to get more capital. We would cycle ISK out of faction ships/implants/cores so that we could get to goal. Think of it like this. Would you invest 500b in liquid ISK to get 5T worth of assets? That is basically what was done.
That would be a very risky bet. I guess, that is why you have installed FWeddit, to stop the Minmatar FW ppl to reach tier 5 again and get FW items for prices, which are competitive to you and destroy the worth of your imaginary 5T ISK, which you avhe just in your head or book right now, not really in your wallet. |
Ituhata
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:30:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Good Morning, New Eden!
I see you still have your pannies in a bunch. |
Meno Theaetetus
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:30:00 -
[1143] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Courthouse wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. He bought a 10 year sub and has to wait for it to run out. Hmmm With all the ISK that goonies have made could they say they quit as well and keep playing for then next 10 years. Oh wait can you chain in multiple plex's and how many can you do ? Hmm makes you wonder. 9000 members * 12 months * 10 Years = 1,080,000 Plex's
People seem to think that everyone in the alliance share a bank account, a small group of people in the alliance were very clever and made a lot of money. That doesn't however include the other 1000 odd people (I don't actually know how many individuals are in the alliance). It also does not include the alliance wallet.
This was just a few very rich people in the alliance that had the time, money and inclination to do what they enjoy, min max the sandbox and see what they can make within the confides of the game mechanics created by CCP.
I very much doubt CCP want to send out the message that although this is a sandbox, market manipulation, because that was what this was, is only allowed to go as far as to make you a little bit of money, make a lot and you're 'exploiting' the system. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:31:00 -
[1144] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:They should not be expensiv, if you really are filfthy rich. Or you could upgrade the Maelstroms in Machariels. I.e. Snuff box fly a Machariel fleet without owning Tech moons or LP shop heist. I should've said "more expensive". Some people seem to think "it's more expensive, so it must be better".
As to what we fly, first off not the entirety of GSF participated, and secondly there are very good reasons why you don't roll around in blingfleets all day erryday. The war in tenal showed that pretty succinctly that there are other qualities needed to win a war than "how much money can we spend". |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:33:00 -
[1145] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:Aryth wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc. I would be extremely counterproductive for us to do that. The whole point is to profit as much as possible. You do not do that crushing markets long term. The markets only took impact for a short period because we needed liquidity. Think of it like a loop feeding off the market to get more capital. We would cycle ISK out of faction ships/implants/cores so that we could get to goal. Think of it like this. Would you invest 500b in liquid ISK to get 5T worth of assets? That is basically what was done. That would be a very risky bet. I guess, that is why you have installed FWeddit, to stop the Minmatar FW ppl to reach tier 5 again and get FW items for prices, which are competitive to you and destroy the worth of your imaginary 5T ISK
Correct. Though we didn't install FWreddit. That was just a really great troll on them. We selected Minmatar for the majority of this as we knew we could get them T5 if we were willing to spend a lot of ISK to do so. Based on their starting # of systems. It was important to get this fixed before any long term consequences to the game happened. So moving fast and selecting the quickest faction to hit T4/T5 was key. |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
578
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:36:00 -
[1146] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:It's not like the easy money has anything to do with why we are winning the territory war. More people plexing for your side is not an advantage in the territory war? And piles of ISK and faction crusiers is not an advantage either ... it just means that you can field better and fewer ships to match any enemy force and that you don't have to travel back and forth re-shipping as much. No biggie right? |
Momoyo
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:43:00 -
[1147] - Quote
Huh should have gone to that thing... |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:46:00 -
[1148] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project. You know, we can say its a bug, but we don't really actually know if it was a bug or if ccp just went "You know, double rewarding players doesn't make any sense, does it." We know this wasn't a programing bug - the original design as shown in the devblog included cargo dropped in the lp, and people commented on it. That was a design choice that wound up putting a 2x multiplier in (and making an element of chance involved). |
Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:49:00 -
[1149] - Quote
anyways I seem to know the Switzers better than you Goons do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAoDzIsx03E |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:56:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Amarr Ian wrote: How about you tell me how this didn't fail. I'm not saying that it wasn't a good idea, but what did happen, is that they broadcast-ed what they were doing, (while bragging their a**** off) and lost all the hard? earned ISK.
Now please tell me how this wasn't a fail.
They haven't lost anything yet, and from my understanding, the only reason it was announced was that some dumbass leaked an internal document talking about this. As for the punishment they will likely get... it will be a slap on the wrist. CCP has a habit of coddling Goons in any and all actions they take even when they severely hurt the game and the way CCP looks in the public eye. |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:00:00 -
[1151] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:Amarr Ian wrote: How about you tell me how this didn't fail. I'm not saying that it wasn't a good idea, but what did happen, is that they broadcast-ed what they were doing, (while bragging their a**** off) and lost all the hard? earned ISK.
Now please tell me how this wasn't a fail.
They haven't lost anything yet, and from my understanding, the only reason it was announced was that some dumbass leaked an internal document talking about this. As for the punishment they will likely get... it will be a slap on the wrist. CCP has a habit of coddling Goons in any and all actions they take even when they are severe.
No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops. |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:04:00 -
[1152] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:Amarr Ian wrote: How about you tell me how this didn't fail. I'm not saying that it wasn't a good idea, but what did happen, is that they broadcast-ed what they were doing, (while bragging their a**** off) and lost all the hard? earned ISK.
Now please tell me how this wasn't a fail.
They haven't lost anything yet, and from my understanding, the only reason it was announced was that some dumbass leaked an internal document talking about this. As for the punishment they will likely get... it will be a slap on the wrist. CCP has a habit of coddling Goons in any and all actions they take even when they are severe. No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops.
"I'll believe that when me **** turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet."
Your whole "I was trying to be a good citizen by reporting it" talk is that while you assumed this was a horrible exploit and abuse of the in game mechanics you continued to do so, and when they tried to hot fix it you found a work around and still continued abusing it. I think your self proclaimed sum of isk you made was in the trillions? You would think if you were "frantically" trying to inform CCP you would have stopped after you figured it out, but no you continued to abuse it over and over and over. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:04:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent ?
Tal Let me try to say it more bluntly. CCP has the logs and the data.
... and their logs will show nothing!
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:05:00 -
[1154] - Quote
Meno Theaetetus wrote:
I very much doubt CCP want to send out the message that although this is a sandbox, market manipulation, because that was what this was, is only allowed to go as far as to make you a little bit of money, make a lot and you're 'exploiting' the system.
I don't think anyone thinks the exploit happened in the market; the exploit happened in getting LP's.
If it wasn't "wrong" or "a bug", then why would they even bother reporting it to CCP in the first place? If they really believed what they were doing was legit, they'd still be doing it and you can bet you wouldn't hear it from them.
What they did was grab up as much as they thought they could get away with. "Ohhh, CCP, it's no biggie, right? It's just 5tril worth of ISK. It's a drop in the bucket. You made a bad call, we exploited it, lets just call it a wash and go about our space business."
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:07:00 -
[1155] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: "I'll believe that when me **** turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet."
unfortunately for you unmistakable proof shows you're wrong |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:07:00 -
[1156] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:
I very much doubt CCP want to send out the message that although this is a sandbox, market manipulation, because that was what this was, is only allowed to go as far as to make you a little bit of money, make a lot and you're 'exploiting' the system.
I don't think anyone thinks the exploit happened in the market; the exploit happened in getting LP's. If it wasn't "wrong" or "a bug", then why would they even bother reporting it to CCP in the first place? If they really believed what they were doing was legit, they'd still be doing it and you can bet you wouldn't hear it from them. What they did was grab up as much as they thought they could get away with. "Ohhh, CCP, it's no biggie, right? It's just 5tril worth of ISK. It's a drop in the bucket. You made a bad call, we exploited it, lets just call it a wash and go about our space business."
"Hey, we found this thing. We don't know iff you intended this or not, but it allows us to do X if we go nuts with it. Here is proof." Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:07:00 -
[1157] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:"I'll believe that when me **** turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet." You might want to read back in the thread when Jade shows us the twitter link. So if I were you I'd call the doctor, because ****'s purple and smell like rainbow sherbet. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:07:00 -
[1158] - Quote
in other words get eating |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:09:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:
I very much doubt CCP want to send out the message that although this is a sandbox, market manipulation, because that was what this was, is only allowed to go as far as to make you a little bit of money, make a lot and you're 'exploiting' the system.
I don't think anyone thinks the exploit happened in the market; the exploit happened in getting LP's. If it wasn't "wrong" or "a bug", then why would they even bother reporting it to CCP in the first place? If they really believed what they were doing was legit, they'd still be doing it and you can bet you wouldn't hear it from them. What they did was grab up as much as they thought they could get away with. "Ohhh, CCP, it's no biggie, right? It's just 5tril worth of ISK. It's a drop in the bucket. You made a bad call, we exploited it, lets just call it a wash and go about our space business." "Hey, we found this thing. We don't know iff you intended this or not, but it allows us to do X if we go nuts with it. Here is proof."
If that were true, I'd expect they'd say, "Oh, and here, you should probably take back these LP's we gained because in the hands of a villain, they may then try to dominate the market with it and that'd given them an unfair advantage", instead of "hell yeah, WE B SPACE RICH!! TO THE FORUMS TO GLOAT!!!" |
Cordially Yours
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:12:00 -
[1160] - Quote
why is it that the forum mods have been closing all sorts of threads lately for all sorts of lame ass reasons, but they haven't locked this one yet? |
|
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
578
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:13:00 -
[1161] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:If that were true, I'd expect they'd say, "Oh, and here, you should probably take back these LP's we gained because in the hands of a villain, they may then try to dominate the market with it and that'd given them an unfair advantage", instead of "hell yeah, WE B SPACE RICH!! TO THE FORUMS TO GLOAT!!!" Nothing wrong trying to make a living helping CCP with game design. The goons did this one good me think. But maybe they tried to get away with to much. And why wouldn't you brag if you made 5 trillion ISK? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4127
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:14:00 -
[1162] - Quote
Cordially Yours wrote:why is it that the forum mods have been closing all sorts of threads lately for all sorts of lame ass reasons, but they haven't locked this one yet?
Maybe because it hasn't broken the rules yet? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:15:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:If that were true, I'd expect they'd say, "Oh, and here, you should probably take back these LP's we gained because in the hands of a villain, they may then try to dominate the market with it and that'd given them an unfair advantage", instead of "hell yeah, WE B SPACE RICH!! TO THE FORUMS TO GLOAT!!!" Nothing wrong trying to make a living helping CCP with game design. The goons did this one good me think. But maybe they tried to get away with to much. And why wouldn't you brag if you made 5 trillion ISK?
We are not making any attempt to hide the fact we wanted to profit. I don't believe profit and keeping the game sane are mutually exclusive. |
Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:16:00 -
[1164] - Quote
congrats goons. good exploitation is good. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:16:00 -
[1165] - Quote
Cordially Yours wrote:why is it that the forum mods have been closing all sorts of threads lately for all sorts of lame ass reasons, but they haven't locked this one yet? because it's a thread thats interesting, shows off the game in a great way, and is really impressive
it even made the news |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:19:00 -
[1166] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote: . Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
Why should they give ISK to the average Goon? Even the communist USSR brass had their nice villas while everybody else sucked the hard nuts.
Anyway here's the fairest punishment for those 5 guys:
2 years of obligatory work in CCP as coders and QA testers.
Either this will be a suitable Dante's alike retaliation and will make them experiment their own stuff.
And / or
EvE's game code quality will increase 3 fold.
Win on all the line. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:21:00 -
[1167] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote: . Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
Why should they give ISK to the average Goon? Even the communist USSR brass had their nice villas while everybody else sucked the hard nuts. Anyway here's the fairest punishment for those 5 guys: 2 years of obligatory work in CCP as coders and QA testers. Either this will be a suitable Dante's alike retaliation and will make them experiment their own stuff. And / or EvE's game code quality will increase 3 fold. Win on all the line.
CCP cannot afford to pay any of us, especially if they would want us in Iceland. We may be happy to do remote consulting, of course. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:21:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Haquer wrote: Only morons dump what they're sitting on into the markets (and this is why the mineral market is crashing downward -- morons)
Mineral markets are crashing because of another 2 reasons, I let you guess which is. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:25:00 -
[1169] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Haquer wrote: Only morons dump what they're sitting on into the markets (and this is why the mineral market is crashing downward -- morons)
Mineral markets are crashing because of another 2 reasons, I let you guess which is. "mineral markets" are not crashing
some minerals are crashing, some are spiking, (highends and lowends respectively) |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
693
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:27:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Goremageddon Box wrote:congrats goons. good exploitation is good.
I wouldn't toss the E word about so casually. . |
|
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:28:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Lexmana wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:If that were true, I'd expect they'd say, "Oh, and here, you should probably take back these LP's we gained because in the hands of a villain, they may then try to dominate the market with it and that'd given them an unfair advantage", instead of "hell yeah, WE B SPACE RICH!! TO THE FORUMS TO GLOAT!!!" Nothing wrong trying to make a living helping CCP with game design. The goons did this one good me think. But maybe they tried to get away with to much. And why wouldn't you brag if you made 5 trillion ISK? We are not making any attempt to hide the fact we wanted to profit. I don't believe profit and keeping the game sane are mutually exclusive.
Aryth wrote: No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops.
And this is what I personally take issue with. You knew all along it was an error/bug/bad code/bad design (note where you "frantically" went to tell CCP Punkturis about this horrible error) and yet set out to make profit from it. And that is exactly what CCP said would be ban worthy.
Am I missing something here? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:28:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote: . Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
Anyway here's the fairest punishment for those 5 guys: 2 years of obligatory work in CCP as coders and QA testers.
I think CSM or "in the know" positions would be the worst thing imaginable. The reason I like EVE is the ability to conduct large scale manipulations (Interdiction/BurnJita/This/Minerals) or to speculate on patches (PI/POCO/Minerals again/Datacores etc) The CSM essentially surrenders their right to trade/manip/spec on patches for being in the know. I would consider it torture to be "in the know" and not be able to use the information. Since it means I would no longer be able to play EVE in the way I always have.
PS. Edit. Of course. I guess at a certain point, enough is enough eh. ISK wise. Though I am still not sure what that point is. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:31:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:Lexmana wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:If that were true, I'd expect they'd say, "Oh, and here, you should probably take back these LP's we gained because in the hands of a villain, they may then try to dominate the market with it and that'd given them an unfair advantage", instead of "hell yeah, WE B SPACE RICH!! TO THE FORUMS TO GLOAT!!!" Nothing wrong trying to make a living helping CCP with game design. The goons did this one good me think. But maybe they tried to get away with to much. And why wouldn't you brag if you made 5 trillion ISK? We are not making any attempt to hide the fact we wanted to profit. I don't believe profit and keeping the game sane are mutually exclusive. Aryth wrote: No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops.
And this is what I personally take issue with. You knew all along it was an error/bug/bad code/bad design (note where you "frantically" went to tell CCP Punkturis about this horrible error) and yet set out to make profit from it. And that is exactly what CCP said would be ban worthy. Am I missing something here?
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:35:00 -
[1174] - Quote
Aryth wrote:It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not. In other words, you didn't want anyone else profiting too. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:38:00 -
[1175] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Aryth wrote:It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not. In other words, you didn't want anyone else profiting too.
Yes. This is true. There is a certain point where it would have done long term damage to the LP markets. 5 guys cranking out is limited in scope. 100 or 1000 guys doing it...not so much.
But I will readily admit I don't want to share the markets with others. I want max profit, that means carefully managing the very fields we tilled. I don't see anything wrong with this at all. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
492
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:39:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Aryth wrote:It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not. In other words, you didn't want anyone else profiting too. Basically.....
It's bad for the game if *everyone* does it...
You know there's something fundamentally wrong when the only way people can think of to promote the "best" part of the game is to make everything else suck more. |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:39:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
So because you are goons you feel entitled to be allowed to exploit a game mechanic with no repercussions, and you claim it is "ok" to do because you "frantically" tried to report it all the while continuing doing the thing you had been reporting as a bug/exploit/etc?
And again, the only reason you even posted this thread and probably alerted CCP was because you leaked it on accident.
Your logic is mind boggling... |
White Carnation
SYNDIC Unlimited
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:41:00 -
[1178] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:White Carnation wrote:Then, when somneone bottoms out the datacore market, we get r*yally scr*wed.
Goons, how about sum luv (and a couple bill ISK each) for the poor victims of your market manipulation. Look at it as spreading the wealth, which wilkl all come back to you viia the technetium monopoly after much discussion, we have decided to honour your request, however, we will not give you ISK, but advice never have all of your eggs in the same basket
Thank you -- I didn't.
I still got unknowingly spanked. Now, if you'd *told* us what you were doing ...
Anyway, if you ever *want* some Mech Eng datacores, I will do you a good deal -- say 10% below Jita, and you throw in a free Dramiel, which word has it you're overloaded with. |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:41:00 -
[1179] - Quote
Aryth wrote:It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
You: A handful of people getting tons of profit off a design flaw is healthy for the game.
Interesting. Zero risk, Great reward FW... yeah, FW needs to be balanced! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119886
Support Damen Apol's FW proposal! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683 |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:41:00 -
[1180] - Quote
All you pubbies must be sick of Goons winning at Eve Online like every other damn day.
Goons win at Tech Wars. The pubbie cry; Quick, nerf Tech!
Goons win at market manipulation; Quick, ban these guys for being smarter thanus (and CCP)!
Maybe you should all just get better at Eve and quit complaining huh. |
|
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
392
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:42:00 -
[1181] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.
|
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
392
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:43:00 -
[1182] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:All you pubbies must be sick of Goons winning at Eve Online like every other damn day.
Nope. Not me, anyway. If I'm sick of anything it's your constant self-congratulation. |
Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
146
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:44:00 -
[1183] - Quote
AHA...Finally made it through all the slog.
Well done. Smart people doing smart things and actually having enough resources/alts/friends to pull it off.
(Be back in VFK soon, while I got podded back to empire I had some more business to attend)
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:44:00 -
[1184] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:
I very much doubt CCP want to send out the message that although this is a sandbox, market manipulation, because that was what this was, is only allowed to go as far as to make you a little bit of money, make a lot and you're 'exploiting' the system.
I don't think anyone thinks the exploit happened in the market; the exploit happened in getting LP's. If it wasn't "wrong" or "a bug", then why would they even bother reporting it to CCP in the first place? If they really believed what they were doing was legit, they'd still be doing it and you can bet you wouldn't hear it from them. What they did was grab up as much as they thought they could get away with. "Ohhh, CCP, it's no biggie, right? It's just 5tril worth of ISK. It's a drop in the bucket. You made a bad call, we exploited it, lets just call it a wash and go about our space business." EVE has always been a realm where you could exploit stupid mechanics like this for as long as they exist, as long as it wasn't a bug, and the devs had not declared it an exploit.
Go try it, its alot of fun to feel that rush from knowing you outsmarted a dev. If its not a bug, and its not already declared an exploit, go nuts, have fun, and walk away space rich.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that we are in this game to ruthlessly exploit any advantage we can gain over everyone else? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:45:00 -
[1185] - Quote
We can stop congratulating ourselves when we stop winning.
So never basically, given how awful you all are at this game. |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:45:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.
This is much more explanatory than my post.
Seconded. Zero risk, Great reward FW... yeah, FW needs to be balanced! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119886
Support Damen Apol's FW proposal! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683 |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:46:00 -
[1187] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:We can stop congratulating ourselves when we stop winning.
So never basically, given how awful you all are at this game.
You seem pretty upset. Zero risk, Great reward FW... yeah, FW needs to be balanced! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119886
Support Damen Apol's FW proposal! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683 |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:47:00 -
[1188] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem. A few people doing it isn't gonna break the game. 1000 doing it will.
Are you so thick that you can't understand that? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:54:00 -
[1189] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem. A few people doing it isn't gonna break the game. 1000 doing it will. Are you so thick that you can't understand that?
It's ok, my son. I will explain.
Your first mistake is not reading the post Ban Bindy quoted.
Aryth wrote:It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Aryth said "one is healthy for the game, the other is not."
So Aryth said two things:
- What we (the 5), are doing is healthy for the game. - If everyone did what we did, it wouldn't be healthy for the game.
This is incorrect.
What he did is NOT healthy for the game either. What he should've said is:
"One is unhealthy for the game, the other is even more unhealthy for the game. What we did is the better of the two evils."
But this is still hypocrisy because they could have reported the design flaw to CCP as soon as they found it. Zero risk, Great reward FW... yeah, FW needs to be balanced! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119886
Support Damen Apol's FW proposal! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683 |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:54:00 -
[1190] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:All you pubbies must be sick of Goons winning at Eve Online like every other damn day.
Goons win at Tech Wars. The pubbie cry; Quick, nerf Tech!
Goons win at market manipulation; Quick, ban these guys for being smarter thanus (and CCP)!
Maybe you should all just get better at Eve and quit complaining huh.
You mean we should all manipulate Eve in a way that it shouldn't have been (give the guy who thought of it props for being a clever bloke but....) and take advantage of the poor distribution of a resource ?
Well if everyone was doing that, this game would be more "bad word" (save the forums replacing it) than it already is.
Quick lets all be good at EvE by breaking it
Tal
|
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:55:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem. This is much more explanatory than my post. Seconded.
This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done.
What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:58:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem. A few people doing it isn't gonna break the game. 1000 doing it will. Are you so thick that you can't understand that? It's ok, my son. I will explain. Your first mistake is not reading the post Ban Bindy quoted. Aryth wrote:It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not. Aryth said "one is healthy for the game, the other is not." So Aryth said two things: - What we (the 5), are doing is healthy for the game. - If everyone did what we did, it wouldn't be healthy for the game. This is incorrect. What he did is NOT healthy for the game either. What he should've said is: "One is unhealthy for the game, the other is even more unhealthy for the game. What we did is the better of the two evils." But this is still hypocrisy because they could have reported the design flaw to CCP as soon as they found it.
As has been stated earlier in the thread. This was pointed out by others to CCP in their design thread. They knew. |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:58:00 -
[1193] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Private Pineapple wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem. This is much more explanatory than my post. Seconded. This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done. What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.
But you still think what you did is healthy for the game, when it would've been healthier for you to report it immediately and not make a profit off of it.
You are also incorrect about the first movers always making a self-serving act with a certain exploit, bug, flaw, whatever before reporting it. There have been cases before this incident and there will be more cases after this incident where the first movers simply reported it and did not do anything. Admit it, others have more integrity than you guys do. Zero risk, Great reward FW... yeah, FW needs to be balanced! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119886
Support Damen Apol's FW proposal! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683 |
Lucius Serjanus
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:59:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Wow, awesome read! congrats guys............
can I have some isk? |
Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:59:00 -
[1195] - Quote
The reason they reported the bug to CCP is because if they don't and everyone else gets in on the action, all the LP they made will become worthless.
It is like there is a foot race and goons found stashed in the bushes a bunch of sports cars that go 500 km/h. Instead of reporting the cars to CCP then, they instead decided to jump in one, zip ahead of everyone else for days, then hope out of the car and then tell CCP, "Yo there is these cars that could be used to speed through this race, you need to get rid of them." CCP destroys the cars, but what I want to know is:
Will CCP put the goons who used the one of the cars to gain an unfair advantage or leave them where they are after abusing a bug? |
Signal11th
535
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:00:00 -
[1196] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:Aryth wrote:Private Pineapple wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem. This is much more explanatory than my post. Seconded. This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done. What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. But you still think what you did is healthy for the game, when it would've been health ier for you to report it immediately and not make a profit off of it. You are also incorrect about the first movers always making a self-serving act with a certain exploit, bug, flaw, whatever before reporting it. There have been cases before this incident and there will still be more cases after this incident. Admit it, others have more integrity than you guys do.
Why should they? Are they paid by CCP to bug check ...no, Their profit is their reward for figuring it out. fair play to them. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:00:00 -
[1197] - Quote
It looks like an exploit to me. I would have not done it because I thought it was an exploit. I guess we will just see what CCP does. If they allow it then it creates an precedent, that to me would mean manipulate any rule to the full extent so long as the action is not explicitly banned. Unfortunately I doubt CCP will see this comment 60 odd pages. |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:01:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Private Pineapple wrote:Aryth wrote:Private Pineapple wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.
This is much more explanatory than my post. Seconded. This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done. What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. But you still think what you did is healthy for the game, when it would've been health ier for you to report it immediately and not make a profit off of it. You are also incorrect about the first movers always making a self-serving act with a certain exploit, bug, flaw, whatever before reporting it. There have been cases before this incident and there will still be more cases after this incident. Admit it, others have more integrity than you guys do. Why should they? Are they paid by CCP to bug check ...no, Their profit is their reward for figuring it out. fair play to them.
Did you miss the word integrity? Zero risk, Great reward FW... yeah, FW needs to be balanced! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119886
Support Damen Apol's FW proposal! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119683 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:01:00 -
[1199] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.
... or the mindset.
I would never pour in that much :effort: in an operation where I can't cash out with RL money. ISK is lol till CCP will allow players RMT (probably never, and by seeing how bright they are, it's for their good being).
Edit:
Also, I am honest enough to be called stupid. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
558
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:02:00 -
[1200] - Quote
Sounds to me like this is a ban worth exploitation of a bug, dupping bug.
These guys saw an obviously unintentional error in the mechanics to the changes to FW that allowed them pretty much print LP. Similar to a dupping bug, they obviously set out to take full advantage of the exploit with out any intention of letting CCP know before it was way to late.
And now they want a pat on the back, for exploiting.
I remember a while back ago there was a similar bug, exploit that was in the game. It involved a POS and breaking the moon goo alchemy chain in such a way that you could create something from nothing. CCP nailed those guys hard accounts banned everything. I believe this is a similar situation and should probably have a similar result. |
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Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:03:00 -
[1201] - Quote
Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.
Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent. |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:05:00 -
[1202] - Quote
Let's make it simpler again.
Buy low. Sell high.
CCP sold low. Goons sold high.
If you sell your products for the wrong price, you won't profit. The purchaser will.
If any other EVE corp had made this mistake it would be a normal day.
CCP made the mistake and they don't like it.
There is no "exploit" when you give the wrong price on an item and even less pity when you cannot cost that item.
If CCP cannot compete as a company in its own game - why should they rely on us role-playing honorable behavior?
Should we apply this logic to all market trades and business?
Should we apply this thinking to EVE warfare? |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:05:00 -
[1203] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent.
The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2441
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:10:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Better Than You wrote:Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent. The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game.
Good. Then you have nothing to worry about from the CCP investigation to these abusive activities. |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:11:00 -
[1205] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Better Than You wrote:Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent. The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game. Good. Then you have nothing to worry about from the CCP investigation to these abusive activities.
Because the result will be fair and even handed.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:12:00 -
[1206] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do.
Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards"
You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason.
One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me.
Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report. |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:16:00 -
[1207] - Quote
Xutech wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Better Than You wrote:Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent. The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game. Good. Then you have nothing to worry about from the CCP investigation to these abusive activities. Because the result will be fair and even handed.
Yeeeeeeeahhhhh, I'm going to have to say you are wrong on that. Just from very recent experience. You guys know better than to be 100% sure CCP won't punish any of those who did this. Just when you think you have CCP figured out, they pull a 180 on you. |
Khergit Deserters
Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:16:00 -
[1208] - Quote
Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
|
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:16:00 -
[1209] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:All you pubbies must be sick of Goons winning at Eve Online like every other damn day.
Goons win at Tech Wars. The pubbie cry; Quick, nerf Tech!
Goons win at market manipulation; Quick, ban these guys for being smarter thanus (and CCP)!
Maybe you should all just get better at Eve and quit complaining huh.
Now wait a second... I thought it was the Goons crying "Quick, nerf Tech!"
And I don't know why you folks can't seem to get this through your heads. This wasn't a manipulation of the MARKET, it was a manipulation of the LOYALTY POINT reward system.
Nothing in this says they were "smarter" then devs. All it says is the dev's didn't foresee people joining factions with their alts and driving billions worth of freighter and lootz into their own alts. Faction Wars exists to give people a more casual PVP experience and they attempted to reward the effort with glorious prizes. It wasn't intended to make you space rich, but to keep you motivated and violencing each others boats.
And ironically, faction war may be a way for the "highsec carebears" to come out of the cave and get more involved in the deep end of the EvE pool, something that I've seen "cried" about by many of these same Goons. But that didn't stop them from joining up, screwing up the mechanics and basically dropping a giant deuce in the pool.
I'm not surprised though. It's how they roll. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:19:00 -
[1210] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
It wasnt a bug. |
|
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:20:00 -
[1211] - Quote
Epiphaniess wrote:Sounds to me like this is a ban worth exploitation of a bug, dupping bug.
These guys saw an obviously unintentional error in the mechanics to the changes to FW that allowed them pretty much print LP. Similar to a dupping bug, they obviously set out to take full advantage of the exploit with out any intention of letting CCP know before it was way to late.
And now they want a pat on the back, for exploiting.
I remember a while back ago there was a similar bug, exploit that was in the game. It involved a POS and breaking the moon goo alchemy chain in such a way that you could create something from nothing. CCP nailed those guys hard accounts banned everything. I believe this is a similar situation and should probably have a similar result.
You are missing the key factor for the people who got the POS bug ban... they weren't goons. This kind of behavior seems to be applauded by CCP... as long as you are a goon of course. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2441
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:20:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Xutech wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Better Than You wrote:Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent. The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game. Good. Then you have nothing to worry about from the CCP investigation to these abusive activities. Because the result will be fair and even handed.
Doesn't matter to me. They can be as unfair and heavy handed as they want. It's only the guys directly involved who even have the risk of anything bad happening to them and even they will propably only get their extra toys removed if even that. Everyone else can just sit back and enjoy the drama. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:21:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent.
I liked the part where you changed the words "first mover" to "bank robber". Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:21:00 -
[1214] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do. Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards" You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason. One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me. Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report.
It wasn't a bug. It was intentionally coded market mechanics that are ******* stupid, they were told it was stupid when it first launched, then they felt comfortable with it entering the game anyways. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:22:00 -
[1215] - Quote
EVEN THOUGH YOU DIDN'T DUPE THIS IS VERY SIMILAR TO DUPING DON'T YOU SEE |
Hesperus Vanderbeets
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
261
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:22:00 -
[1216] - Quote
I am unsubbing all 24 of my accounts until CCP remedies this situation in the way that I deem appropriate. Ban all the goons. |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:23:00 -
[1217] - Quote
No more unintentional than a blob of 50 titans/100 SC being able to control half the map.
The posibilty of manipulation was mentioned long ago and ccp did not fix it.
What we see here is just what Evil Thug would call: superior use of game mechanics. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
118
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:25:00 -
[1218] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:The Slayer wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Oh thats precious, a whole 8 billion? Aren't you sweet. *rolls around in 300trillion isk money bin* Well hey, I'm just an average eve gamer rather than some kind of superfreak uber numbers guy. 8.7b is quite a lot for me, its about the most I ever made with PVE to be honest. Will keep me in fleet stabbers for a while
Read: "Didn't want that 8 Trillion ISK anyways." "The Mittani isn't even gone for a day and CCP's management is already making bad decisions."
THE MITTANI for CEO of CCP 1-800-273-8255 |
jason hill
The Riot Formation Executive Outcomes
92
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:26:00 -
[1219] - Quote
well the only comment I can really say about what has happend is the that CCP must be bloody FACEPALMING ... AGAIN !
CCP ....cocking it up since 2003 |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:26:00 -
[1220] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do. Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards" You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason. One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me. Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report. It wasn't a bug. It was intentionally coded market mechanics that are ******* stupid, they were told it was stupid when it first launched, then they felt comfortable with it entering the game anyways.
And that negates taking advantage of it to an unintended degree how?
Unintended is the important word here. No matter how crap their mechanics are in their own game, if they don't work the way they want they reserve the right to fix it with dev magic. Have you ever looked at the EULA?
You're arguing semantics. Next step is back peddling. I hope you have a t2 suitcase fitted because you're going to need it. |
|
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:26:00 -
[1221] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
It wasnt a bug.
Then there would be nothing to tell CCP Punkturis about, yet:
Aryth wrote:
No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops.
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:27:00 -
[1222] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason.
One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me.
I think CCP are annoyed because:
1) It puts CCP Sreegs in 2 bad lights.
2) CCP invested sensible time / coding / money into FW, a feature long left to rot part of low sec systems left long time to rot. These 5 guys basically p!ssed on *CCP's* sand this time.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:28:00 -
[1223] - Quote
Dollars, pounds, francs and yen. All currency and all exchangeable for goods and services.
There are plenty of currency conversion services in the world, many of which can be found in airports.
Do you believe they provide that service for free out of the kindness of their hearts?
Converting currency to gain a profit is hardly an exploit. Nor is trading currency to buy foreign goods at good prices an exploit, and selling those items at a profit and then converting that back to a favorable currency is hardly an exploit either. |
Muscaat
EVE Markets
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:29:00 -
[1224] - Quote
Not a fan of the Goons by and large but this is good stuff
For all those looking for recent precedent on this sort of thing - kind of reminds me of the debacle when they introduced PI. Talk of bans is, I think, just a bit over the top. CCP created an unfortunate situation and some clever people used that to their advantage... that's EVE |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:29:00 -
[1225] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
118
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:30:00 -
[1226] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do. Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards" You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason. One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me. Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report. It wasn't a bug. It was intentionally coded market mechanics that are ******* stupid, they were told it was stupid when it first launched, then they felt comfortable with it entering the game anyways.
I totally agree here. Saying "this is an exploit" would be the same as CFC crying a year ago that "PL is exploiting Titan tracking." The mechanic sucked, and we complained about it, but it wasn't an exploit.
CCP: if you create a sandbox where you know players manipulate markets all the time, don't have a faucet tied to in-game market prices. You have some really, really smart people at this company. Your players are smarter. Look at the contract manipulation Hatchery pulled off last year. If you want to play with markets, be prepared to play with the big boys.
Look at the bright side, though: if left alone, there's just a huge glut of LP sitting out there. Fortunately, LP is just one form of currency in EVE, isn't terribly liquid (it can't be transferred between toons without cashing out into real-world goods), and having Faction items cheaper for the foreseeable future will offset some of the inflation we've seen recently, and which CCP econ guys are worried about. "The Mittani isn't even gone for a day and CCP's management is already making bad decisions."
THE MITTANI for CEO of CCP 1-800-273-8255 |
ashley Eoner
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:30:00 -
[1227] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Better Than You wrote:Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent. The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game. The only thing I'm guilty of is opening a poorly locked door... |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:30:00 -
[1228] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
It wasnt a bug. Then there would be nothing to tell CCP Punkturis about, yet: Aryth wrote:
No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops.
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket. No, they ****** over everyone who make money by selling items you can get from the minmatar FW LP store. Anyone that dont sell one of these and instead buy them will actually enjoy a slightly lower price for a long time. |
Megos Adriano
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:30:00 -
[1229] - Quote
When I realized I could speedtank Amarr plexes, I set to farming LP. and kept a careful eye on 3 market hubs.
When we were at Tier4, I cashed in most of my LP, around 1 mil. I never expected Tier5, but when I saw it, I cashed in newly farmed LP (another 1 mil LP).
I have to thank Goonswarm for making me rich. Although it's not trillions, I'm secure in the knowledge that I won't be banned or have assets seized by the devs.
o/ Stay classy guys! Stoic Assembly Lines is seeking more storks for our herd! Pilots of all ages-áand professions welcome to-ábecome part of our family - we have opportunities for all! For more information, send me an EVE-Mail. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2095
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:30:00 -
[1230] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do. Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards" You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason. One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me. Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report.
It is fairly common practice in the business world to instead of prosecuting a hacker that finds a vulnerability in your network, you instead hire him. Usually that decision is based on whether the hacker showed any restraint, and whether they voluntarily shared the information in detail with the company (in other words just how much did they **** the company off with the nature of the hack).
I can see penalties being relatively light, and I think they should be. They actually kept this from becoming a huge issue in EVE. Harsh penalties in this case would only ensure that the next time a problem like this is discovered that they will keep the information to themselves, which helps no one. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
118
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:36:00 -
[1231] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.
This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt.
I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game. "The Mittani isn't even gone for a day and CCP's management is already making bad decisions."
THE MITTANI for CEO of CCP 1-800-273-8255 |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:38:00 -
[1232] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Vile rat wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do. Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards" You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason. One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me. Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report. It wasn't a bug. It was intentionally coded market mechanics that are ******* stupid, they were told it was stupid when it first launched, then they felt comfortable with it entering the game anyways. I totally agree here. Saying "this is an exploit" would be the same as CFC crying a year ago that "PL is exploiting Titan tracking." The mechanic sucked, and we complained about it, but it wasn't an exploit. CCP: if you create a sandbox where you know players manipulate markets all the time, don't have a faucet tied to in-game market prices. You have some really, really smart people at this company. Your players are smarter. Look at the contract manipulation Hatchery pulled off last year. If you want to play with markets, be prepared to play with the big boys. Look at the bright side, though: if left alone, there's just a huge glut of LP sitting out there. Fortunately, LP is just one form of currency in EVE, isn't terribly liquid (it can't be transferred between toons without cashing out into real-world goods), and having Faction items cheaper for the foreseeable future will offset some of the inflation we've seen recently, and which CCP econ guys are worried about.
Saying it isn't an exploit over and over doesn't mean much. The only ppl that ultimately get to decide what is and isn't an exploit are the ppl who own and run the game. In light of what CCP has already said on the topic.....
It sounds less like intelligent rationalization by game savy meta gamers and more like children clapping to save tinkerbell. As if they keep on clapping and saying it wasn't an exploit CCP isn't going to take action to reverse the damage (take their stufs, which they've already eluded to in this thread) and leave them high, dry and looking like fools. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2592
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:39:00 -
[1233] - Quote
[i wrote:Darth Gustav]It might be early, but hell, give it a think. Do you really want your FW represntative on the CSM fighting agains[/i]t you after he admittedly completely neglected the respective complaints of one entire faction for his own personal gain and profit?
For that matter, "Impeach Hans!"
LOL and where, pray tell, was this "confession" ?
I know how easy it is to see how hard I've worked to screw my enemies - maybe it was the part where I repeatedly said dockblocking could kill small gang PvP.? Or the part where I said the LP scaling was too extreme. Maybe it was the part where I said publicly that CCP needed to reset the warzone to undo my faction's plexing efforts pre-inferno so everyone started out on level ground? Perhaps you're referring to the fact that I asked CCP about making dockblocking a system upgrade rather than a fixed penalty (giving the Amarr more places they could dock).
And OH YES. The profit I've made. Are you referring to the roughly 80,000 LP I've made since Inferno, due to the fact I'm usually out defensive plexing in fleets (which pays nothing)? Or do you mean the half-dozen 5000 LP implants I bought last Saturday after missing the tier 5 spike cause I had no LP saved up? Yeah, man, I scored so big there CCP should investigate me for abuse of power!
I appreciate the morning entertainment, you conspiracy nuts are always so much fun. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:40:00 -
[1234] - Quote
CCP has a history of shooting the messenger. They don't want to hear the message but they always act surprised when the disaster occurs anyway.
I know several messengers: they all have this in common. They attempted to help and got stabbed in the back. |
Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:41:00 -
[1235] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do. Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards" You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason. One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me. Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report. It is fairly common practice in the business world to instead of prosecuting a hacker that finds a vulnerability in your network, you instead hire him. Usually that decision is based on whether the hacker showed any restraint, and whether they voluntarily shared the information in detail with the company (in other words just how much did they **** the company off with the nature of the hack). I can see penalties being relatively light, and I think they should be. They actually kept this from becoming a huge issue in EVE. Harsh penalties in this case would only ensure that the next time a problem like this is discovered that they will keep the information to themselves, which helps no one.
well thought out. liked. |
Doctor Benway Kado
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:45:00 -
[1236] - Quote
Is it weird that I'm not decrying CCP for something they might do? That I actually feel a bit of trust that CCP Skreeg is ethical and professional enough that he's not going to make some gut instinct decision? If he deems it an exploit, it's an exploit. If not, it's not.
I don't think we need to call for firings and mass bannings and server resets just yet. Y'all are getting a little bit quick on the "Damn you, CCP" wagon. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:47:00 -
[1237] - Quote
What the **** are we going to do with those trillions anyways? Buy 50 useless titans? |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
226
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:49:00 -
[1238] - Quote
In fairness to Goons, they are just playing the game. Everything in EVE is percentage so if you have more, you make more. Is it thugging the game? Yes but that's what CCP have made EVE in to. It isn't goons fault EVE is a blob it up cowboy that relies on one factor of moar. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:49:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket. This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt. I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game.
So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it.
Everything that happened with the discovery to the reporting to CCP to CCP pushing out fixes and now investigation "abuses" (as they put it) all points to one logical conclusion. It wasn't what was intended. The OP knew it, CCP knew it, and according to you, a lot of people knew it. But It doesn't matter if you want to classify it as a bug/error/bad design/bad implementation. It wasn't how the devs intended for it to be used. Or rather, they didn't expect anyone to abuse the system. They may have counted on the fact that if anyone tried to, they'd just ban them for breaking the EULA, though I doubt they'd be enough to set people up like that. But who knows, "EvE isn't fair" so it's all fair game, amirite?
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Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
891
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:50:00 -
[1240] - Quote
Hans Jangerblitzen wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:It might be early, but hell, give it a think. Do you really want your FW represntative on the CSM fighting against you after he admittedly completely neglected the respective complaints of one entire faction for his own personal gain and profit?
For that matter, "Impeach Hans!" LOL and where, pray tell, was this "confession" ? I know how easy it is to see how hard I've worked to screw my enemies - maybe it was the part where I repeatedly said dockblocking could kill small gang PvP.? Or the part where I said the LP scaling was too extreme. Maybe it was the part where I said publicly that CCP needed to reset the warzone to undo my faction's plexing efforts pre-inferno so everyone started out on level ground? Perhaps you're referring to the fact that I asked CCP about making dockblocking a system upgrade rather than a fixed penalty (giving the Amarr more places they could dock). And OH YES. The profit I've made. Are you referring to the roughly 80,000 LP I've made since Inferno, due to the fact I'm usually out defensive plexing in fleets (which pays nothing)? Or do you mean the half-dozen 5000 LP implants I bought last Saturday after missing the tier 5 spike cause I had no LP saved up? Yeah, man, I scored so big there CCP should investigate me for abuse of power! I appreciate the morning entertainment, you conspiracy nuts are always so much fun.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago. Lots of us made billions, regardless of whether we knew about the manipulation or not. Every Minmatar that had saved up their millions of LP cashed out gloriously, albeit not on the scale of the manipulators. 8.7 billion is completely feasible given the opportunity that opened up. BTW, thanks for releasing the info and removing the artificial prop-up. You wouldn't believe how I excited I am that the Amarr have less to complain about now, this severely cuts into the "Boo-hoo minnies are steamrolling us the system is so unfair". I'd much rather have the warzone control based on the fighting merit of the two militias.If Tier 5 is indeed much more difficult to obtain, even with all the systems held by the Minmatar militia, we'll know here pretty soon, and it will mean the system is much less conducive to "snowballing" as the "losing" factions have complained about. If we are able to hit Tier 5 again, than it nukes the 3p33n claim that we only could ever achieve Tier 5 with Goon support. Either way its a win-win. You just made my life a lot easier - maybe not that of my militia, of course, but for me personally who's job it is to monitor the state of the warzone and assess the functionality and balance of the mechanics. You've cut through the noise quite a bit by allowing the war to just play itself out, without the skewed manipulation effort.This also means the Amarr are more likely to invest in actually winning their own war, instead of simply throwing alts into the Minnie militia to sip at our juice-fountain, if the days of the Tier 5 spike have come to a close for a while. Nicely done.
I bolded your poorly-considered confessions for you.
It sort of looks like a whole faction was complaining and you admitted to making billions off their woes to me, Hans.
And it also looks like you're glad the Goons were manipulating the system, because now you seem to think you're justified in ignoring your oppositions' complaints.
[sarcasm]Higher standards could not be had![/sarcasm] He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
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Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:51:00 -
[1241] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:53:00 -
[1242] - Quote
Goremageddon Box wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do. Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards" You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason. One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me. Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report. It is fairly common practice in the business world to instead of prosecuting a hacker that finds a vulnerability in your network, you instead hire him. Usually that decision is based on whether the hacker showed any restraint, and whether they voluntarily shared the information in detail with the company (in other words just how much did they **** the company off with the nature of the hack). I can see penalties being relatively light, and I think they should be. They actually kept this from becoming a huge issue in EVE. Harsh penalties in this case would only ensure that the next time a problem like this is discovered that they will keep the information to themselves, which helps no one. well thought out. liked.
~RL analogy~ aside, most hackers just end up with legal fees and criminal records. When someone perceives theft or compromised security they don't typically reward the action. But again, stupid to discuss when we are talking about a virtual world.
I don't think the penalties will be light or harsh, just reversive. This is a far far cry from a bannable action. But it also won't be the witty enriching win ppl who benefit wish it was.
The only thing they want to ensure is that things like this are bug reported. There isn't any need to either overly punish the ppl that did it or permit them to keep what they gamed out of the system. Especially when it could negatively impact so many players that were using the mechanics as intended for years.
CCP just rejuvinated this aspect of game play. These guys compromised their product. Spit in their lunch. You really think they'll say "no big deal that these guys can wreck the LP markets for months single handedly. they earned it" ?! Wishful thinking is the nicest way I can phrase that type of intelligence w/o getting another forum ban.
In fact, we already know what they'll say! Just look up |
darmwand
Repo.
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:55:00 -
[1243] - Quote
It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?
The only thing that bugs me is that I didn't think of it first, my Merlin could use an oil change. darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
891
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:59:00 -
[1244] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:~RL analogy~ aside, most hackers just end up with legal fees and criminal records. When someone perceives theft or compromised security they don't typically reward the action. But again, stupid to discuss when we are talking about a virtual world. I don't think the penalties will be light or harsh, just reversive. This is a far far cry from a bannable action. But it also won't be the witty enriching win ppl who benefit wish it was. The only thing they want to ensure is that things like this are bug reported. There isn't any need to either overly punish the ppl that did it or permit them to keep what they gamed out of the system. Especially when it could negatively impact so many players that were using the mechanics as intended for years. CCP just rejuvinated this aspect of game play. These guys compromised their product. Spit in their lunch. You really think they'll say "no big deal that these guys can wreck the LP markets for months single handedly. they earned it" ?! Wishful thinking is the nicest way I can phrase that type of intelligence w/o getting another forum ban. In fact, we already know what they'll say! Just look up Just how is CCP going to reverse this? To eliminate the ill-gotten ISK all the customers of the goons will also have to forfeit their ill-gotten gear. That's most of Eve, by now. CCP is really going to take away the Republic Fleet Warp Disruptors from everybody who bought one at a slightly lower-than-expected rate?
I think not. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
118
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:59:00 -
[1245] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: Saying it isn't an exploit over and over doesn't mean much. The only ppl that ultimately get to decide what is and isn't an exploit are the ppl who own and run the game. In light of what CCP has already said on the topic.....
It sounds less like intelligent rationalization by game savy meta gamers and more like children clapping to save tinkerbell. As if they keep on clapping and saying it wasn't an exploit CCP isn't going to take action to reverse the damage (take their stufs, which they've already eluded to in this thread) and leave them high, dry and looking like fools.
Fine, whatever. I'll agree that CCP has de facto deux ex machina power over their game, especially given how the license technically only gives players one right: to pay CCP money.
I disagree that stating "this is not an exploit" is akin to clapping for Tinkerbell (though congrats on a decent allegory). "Exploit" in the context of this game infers an actual "defect", which in the context of EVE means "not working the way CCP designed it." CCP did design it to work this way, and just ignored people (customers) who questioned this design.
"The Mittani isn't even gone for a day and CCP's management is already making bad decisions."
THE MITTANI for CEO of CCP 1-800-273-8255 |
Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:59:00 -
[1246] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Better Than You wrote:Aryth wrote:This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.
The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent. The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game. The only thing I'm guilty of is opening a poorly locked door...
I love this. Dismantle Euphemisms
also smart thiefs only liberate stuff, not steal it. Remember it. And all prisoners are innocent, of course. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:02:00 -
[1247] - Quote
darmwand wrote:It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care? They care because it was done by goons, and/or they're pissed off that they weren't able to move on it quickly enough. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:04:00 -
[1248] - Quote
Come on, it's not even 5 months of technetium income. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:05:00 -
[1249] - Quote
darmwand wrote:It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?
The only thing that bugs me is that I didn't think of it first, my Merlin could use an oil change.
No. It doesn't stop anyone from running missions. It just has the potential to negate the entire foundation of FW (The LP store). No biggie.
I mean, that's only if your crazy like me and think giving people a virtual market corner via supply saturation for exploiting a game mechanic is bad.
(I know I know, it's not an exploit. And CCP is not going to do anything because they already said that... oh wait)
Impressive? I'm as impressed as I am when I see graffiti on that impossible highway overpass on teh way to work. I'm impressed that someone actually did it. On the other hand I'm wondering "who could be so dumb and have so much time on their hands to do something so wrecklessly stupid and destructive?"... and not to be rude but you don't want to know what I think of lemmings that look at the graffiti and say "oh wow, I wish I had done that, it's so cool" |
Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:06:00 -
[1250] - Quote
personally dont see too much wrong. if we can run with something for awhile before raising flags, that should just make ccp aware of what flags they need to be aware of being raised.
did they collapse the economy and make everyone quit playing eve?
nah, some people found lp gear for cheaper.
some people might have lost out but how much was gained?
but id like to see a well thought out dev response |
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Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:06:00 -
[1251] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:darmwand wrote:It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care? They care because it was done by goons, and/or they're pissed off that they weren't able to move on it quickly enough.
Yeah, we're all just jelly.
Gonna suck when they take all their ill gotten stuff and dont give back the stuff they blew up to get it though. Seriously, taht sucks. |
Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
146
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:10:00 -
[1252] - Quote
I'm waiting for the graphs.
CCP Diagoras, the graphs please :)
Stacked bar graphs showing where LP is being gained and where LP is being spent over a three month period. Graphed daily for all four factions should show these shenannigans at a glance.
Any chance, lord of the graphs, that we may see these?
As well as line graphs of the prices of the items in question (As they should be easily discernable from the previous graphs)
I'm having troubles explaining this to some of my eve co workers and others.
And for our goon overlords, can we please get your pretty graphs? I'm sure that combined with the graphs Diagoras may grant us, a view into just how bad this could have gotten if this had gone wide? You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Betrinna Cantis
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:11:00 -
[1253] - Quote
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not. Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:13:00 -
[1254] - Quote
Zedrik Cayne wrote:I'm waiting for the graphs.
CCP Diagoras, the graphs please :)
Stacked bar graphs showing where LP is being gained and where LP is being spent over a three month period. Graphed daily for all four factions should show these shenannigans at a glance.
Any chance, lord of the graphs, that we may see these?
As well as line graphs of the prices of the items in question (As they should be easily discernable from the previous graphs)
I'm having troubles explaining this to some of my eve co workers and others.
And for our goon overlords, can we please get your pretty graphs? I'm sure that combined with the graphs Diagoras may grant us, a view into just how bad this could have gotten if this had gone wide?
i love graphs. and charts. OMG AND PIE CHARTS.
mmmmmm...... pie charts.... |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
291
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:14:00 -
[1255] - Quote
darmwand wrote:It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?
The only thing that bugs me is that I didn't think of it first, my Merlin could use an oil change.
I'd agree with this if Goons weren't paying people they don't know to shoot people they don't know for doing something that won't matter in Barges.
|
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:14:00 -
[1256] - Quote
Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.
That would make sense if the general membership was somehow able to convince the 5 richest of us to stop their secret plots to become even richer and generate endless forum ****. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
891
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:15:00 -
[1257] - Quote
Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not. Uh...this is a game.
Do you "police" yourself when you play "Uno"?
What if your first hand is all Draw Fours and Skips? Do you call misdeal out of fairness to your competition?
What if this happens a hundred thousand times in a row. Were you an exploiter then? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:15:00 -
[1258] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: Saying it isn't an exploit over and over doesn't mean much. The only ppl that ultimately get to decide what is and isn't an exploit are the ppl who own and run the game. In light of what CCP has already said on the topic.....
It sounds less like intelligent rationalization by game savy meta gamers and more like children clapping to save tinkerbell. As if they keep on clapping and saying it wasn't an exploit CCP isn't going to take action to reverse the damage (take their stufs, which they've already eluded to in this thread) and leave them high, dry and looking like fools.
Fine, whatever. I'll agree that CCP has de facto deux ex machina power over their game, especially given how the license technically only gives players one right: to pay CCP money. I disagree that stating "this is not an exploit" is akin to clapping for Tinkerbell (though congrats on a decent allegory). "Exploit" in the context of this game infers an actual "defect", which in the context of EVE means "not working the way CCP designed it." CCP did design it to work this way, and just ignored people (customers) who questioned this design.
Then why in CCPs statement did they refer to it as abuse? |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:16:00 -
[1259] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:You are missing the key factor for the people who got the POS bug ban... they weren't goons. This kind of behavior seems to be applauded by CCP... as long as you are a goon of course. Nope, the reason they got the POS bug ban was ... because that was a bug.
Ghost Xray wrote:Pisov viet wrote:It wasnt a bug. Then there would be nothing to tell CCP Punkturis about, yet: Tech isn't a bug, so what's there to tell CCP about? Neut logis isn't a bug, so what's there to tell CCP about? Tracking titans isn't a bug, so what's there to tell CCP about? |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:16:00 -
[1260] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not. Uh...this is a game. Do you "police" yourself when you play "Uno"? What if your first hand is all Draw Fours and Skips? Do you call misdeal out of fairness to your competition? What if this happens a hundred thousand times in a row. Were you an exploiter then? Only if i stacked the deck. |
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Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:17:00 -
[1261] - Quote
Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.
No, they would throw another temper tantrum "Burn Jita" type event that really didn't accomplish anything, but show how big of babies they really are. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:18:00 -
[1262] - Quote
Skydell wrote:I'd agree with this if Goons weren't paying people they don't know to shoot people they don't know for doing something that won't matter in Barges. I'd agree with this if goons weren't doing something completely unrelated to what I'm commenting on. |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:18:00 -
[1263] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Only if i stacked the deck. Good thing CCP did the stacking, then. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:19:00 -
[1264] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket. This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt. I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game. So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it. Everything that happened with the discovery to the reporting to CCP to CCP pushing out fixes and now investigation "abuses" (as they put it) all points to one logical conclusion. It wasn't what was intended. The OP knew it, CCP knew it, and according to you, a lot of people knew it. But It doesn't matter if you want to classify it as a bug/error/bad design/bad implementation. It wasn't how the devs intended for it to be used. Or rather, they didn't expect anyone to abuse the system. They may have counted on the fact that if anyone tried to, they'd just ban them for breaking the EULA, though I doubt they'd be enough to set people up like that. But who knows, "EvE isn't fair" so it's all fair game, amirite?
This is speculation, as I don't know CCP's thoughts. But I believe it was because they didn't understand the scope of the issue. It's one thing to know something can be theoretically gamed. Maybe that might even seem desirable. It's quite another to know you can throw massive resources at it and result in something far beyond what they may have intended. Maybe light gaming was intended, I don't know. |
darmwand
Repo.
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:19:00 -
[1265] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:On the other hand I'm wondering "who could be so dumb and have so much time on their hands to do something so wrecklessly stupid and destructive?"
Because we all know that it would be better if they'd just sat in front of their TV instead? I think the "time invested" argument is highly pointless, in the end it's about doing fun things with your spare time and if that's fun to them, let them.
I see your point about devaluating your LP though, but since it was a one time thing (at least from whay I understand) that shouldn't have any long term effects.
Quote:... and not to be rude but you don't want to know what I think of lemmings that look at the graffiti and say "oh wow, I wish I had done that, it's so cool"
Well, in this particulary the graffity is cool. I feel a little sorry for you if you can't appreciate stuff like that. Just try being a little less serious and you'll have much more fun darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:20:00 -
[1266] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:No, they would throw another temper tantrum "Burn Jita" type event that really didn't accomplish anything, but show how big of babies they really are. It accomplished nothing, except stop literally all trade in Jita. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
891
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:20:00 -
[1267] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not. Uh...this is a game. Do you "police" yourself when you play "Uno"? What if your first hand is all Draw Fours and Skips? Do you call misdeal out of fairness to your competition? What if this happens a hundred thousand times in a row. Were you an exploiter then? Only if i stacked the deck. In this case, you were not the dealer. =) He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:21:00 -
[1268] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket. This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt. I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game. So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it. Because they realized their design was flawed and was producing aweful results. Does that mean they should punish players who played according to that design? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2592
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:23:00 -
[1269] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:I bolded your poorly-considered confessions for you.
It sort of looks like a whole faction was complaining and you admitted to making billions off their woes to me, Hans.
And it also looks like you're glad the Goons were manipulating the system, because now you seem to think you're justified in ignoring your oppositions' complaints.
[sarcasm]Higher standards could not be had![/sarcasm]
You're absolutely right, other Minmatar certainly cashed out quite nicely during this spike, I however missed the boat. Last Saturday was the first time I'd sat down to grind LP, and ironically missed the big window Also, the Amarr have outright said they are plexing using Minmatar alts, so my enemies cashed out during this spike as well.
As for my opposition's complaints, they were never ignored. The two biggest warnings I gave CCP prior to Inferno release were to not go with full station lockout, and to not have extreme LP scaling. These are also the two biggest concerns that my enemy's had, and continue to have. At the recent summit, I once again asked for station docking to be moved to a system upgrade, not a permanent feature. With the Goon exploit coming to light, now the developers can see what I warned them about - that maybe this extreme LP scaling might have unforseen consequences.
What I've ignored since inferno's release, is the idea that Faction Warfare is somehow "destroyed" and that the Amarr situation is "hopeless". Everyone who argued against dockblocking (including myself) said it would kill the activity level throughout the warzone. The opposite has occured. I have a responsibility to argue for changes based on the *consequences* observed on Tranquility, and not to stick to rhetoric that crumbles under current events suggesting otherwise. Many Amarr claimed station lockout would make seizing systems impossible, that also turned out not to be true.
It is only the doomsday predictions that have been thoroughly debunked since Inferno's release that I have ignored, I continue to pass on legitimate feedback to CCP on a regular basis. I am relieved that the market manipulation has ended not because my enemies have *nothing* legitimate to complain about, I am relieved that there is now a much more accurate picture of the war being documented so that everyone, friend and foe alike, can see whether or not things are as "hopeless" as some Amarr claim.
If the mechanics are balanced enough to allow for a comeback despite the lack of Goon warzone control backing, we're in good shape. If the war continues to stagnate and remains one-sided, than my warnings to CCP about imbalance will be vindicated and maybe they'll listen to me in the future on these issues instead of saying "EVE isn't fair" and releasing the system as they saw fit. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:24:00 -
[1270] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it. They patched it because it was demonstrated, in no uncertain terms, why the design should be changed.
Just like the anomalies were changed, just like the titans were initially changed (pity they screwed that up), and just like the titans were changed again, and just like CCP decided to add alchemy to alleviate the R64 design limitation, and just like CCP are going to let neut logis be shootable now (or in future, whichever). etc etc etc.
Edit: Just like Pax Amarria was changed when we told CCP about that loophole as well, because that was setting an artificial peg on nocx prices. |
|
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:27:00 -
[1271] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: In this case, you were not the dealer. =)
Never said I was the dealer though. :) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:29:00 -
[1272] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I think CCP are annoyed because:
1) It puts CCP Sreegs in 2 bad lights.
2) CCP invested sensible time / coding / money into FW, a feature long left to rot part of low sec systems left long time to rot. These 5 guys basically p!ssed on *CCP's* sand this time.
I would not be shocked if there was a faction in CCP that was angry about this, but I think everyone understands this was a seriously exploitable mechanism and it was going to be found and used. There's no question about that: people spotted it before it went in. So at the end of the day I don't think anyone will really be angry at the people involved because it was found: it was always going to be found. Better now than in a month or two. |
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:29:00 -
[1273] - Quote
Best thing about this thread is Jade jumping on the grandiose bandwagon because he just can't help himself. Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:29:00 -
[1274] - Quote
Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not. That might make sense.
If it were not for the fact that punishing people who did nothing in a system that they are paying you to use will only drive away innocent, paying customers.
CCP not doing anything about something is one thing, them actively pushing a 9000 person group for the actions of 5 of them will just cause them to go out of business. After all, if that happens, what happens when someone joins your corp, and then violates the rules? Will you happily accept punishment for actions you did not know about, by someone you cannot control?
Or would you, like any sane person, say 'F this, I'm cancelling my account and CCP gets no more of my money?' Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:30:00 -
[1275] - Quote
darmwand wrote:Well, in this particulary the graffity is cool. I feel a little sorry for you if you can't appreciate stuff like that. Just try being a little less serious and you'll have much more fun
Certainly a matter of opinion. I can appreciate getting the jump on someones fleet in game and destroying them. I can appreciate complex espionage and scams.
I can't really appreciate this, it didn't take any imagination... they knew it, or something similar, was going to work ahead of time as they point out. All they did was alter a regional average price for an item, then blow that item up to trigger an LP payout. It's not rocket surgery, so I can't appreciate the ingenuity...
it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Darth Gustav wrote: Just how is CCP going to reverse this? To eliminate the ill-gotten ISK all the customers of the goons will also have to forfeit their ill-gotten gear. That's most of Eve, by now. CCP is really going to take away the Republic Fleet Warp Disruptors from everybody who bought one at a slightly lower-than-expected rate?
I think not.
oh geez, that's a hard one.
-assets left to abuser obtained by abuse removed -isk gained by selling assets abuser obtained by abuse removed -active sell orders of assets abuser obtained by abuse removed -large obvious movement of assets obtained by abuse to other player(s) triggers repeat of the above to those player(s) -let everything else work itself out
Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.
Donnie, please |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:33:00 -
[1276] - Quote
Zedrik Cayne wrote:I'm waiting for the graphs.
CCP Diagoras, the graphs please :)
Stacked bar graphs showing where LP is being gained and where LP is being spent over a three month period. Graphed daily for all four factions should show these shenannigans at a glance.
Any chance, lord of the graphs, that we may see these?
As well as line graphs of the prices of the items in question (As they should be easily discernable from the previous graphs)
I'm having troubles explaining this to some of my eve co workers and others.
And for our goon overlords, can we please get your pretty graphs? I'm sure that combined with the graphs Diagoras may grant us, a view into just how bad this could have gotten if this had gone wide?
The fact that Diagoras is on vacation currently is probably part of the reason why we don't think CCP actually noticed our activities until we told them. I mean, Sreegs said they noticed market manipulations, but that was only part of it... Had Diagoras been around and active on twitter, I'm sure someone would have asked something like "so how much LP have FW pilots earned?" and his eyes would have popped out of his head when he did the DB query. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:33:00 -
[1277] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:[quote=darmwand] it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Except its nothing like that? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2592
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:34:00 -
[1278] - Quote
Karash Amerius wrote:Best thing about this thread is Jade jumping on the grandiose bandwagon because he just can't help himself.
I don't think the irony of him thanking them for helping him earn billions and congratulating them on their genius discovery is missed on anyone, either! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:35:00 -
[1279] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:[quote=darmwand] it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry. Except its nothing like that?
Except where it is, yeah. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:36:00 -
[1280] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Karash Amerius wrote:Best thing about this thread is Jade jumping on the grandiose bandwagon because he just can't help himself. I don't think the irony of him thanking them for helping him earn billions and congratulating them on their genius discovery is missed on anyone, either! The fact that both Jade and Marlona Sky congratulated us and even said its probably not an exploit is pretty amusing, yes. |
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:36:00 -
[1281] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:[quote=darmwand] it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry. Except its nothing like that? Except where it is, yeah.
[citation needed] |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
693
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:37:00 -
[1282] - Quote
Gee there goes Eve Online in the news again. I wonder why, you beautiful bastards.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/22/eve-players-make-over-175000-blowing-up-their-own-spaceships/
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/22/eve-players-abuse-faction-warfare-to-produce-trillions-of-isk/ . |
Lord Zim
903
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:37:00 -
[1283] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry. One is a bug, one is a badly designed game mechanic which CCP has been warned about even prior to release.
Kind of like tracking titans, neut alts, POS bowling, sticking iterons full of stuff in a carrier to haul tons of **** prior to JFs being introduced, etc etc etc. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:37:00 -
[1284] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:[quote=darmwand] it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry. Except its nothing like that? Except where it is, yeah. it is also like a genocide where it is like one |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:38:00 -
[1285] - Quote
it is also like a tree where it is like one |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:38:00 -
[1286] - Quote
The considerably different tone in these articles is amusing. Guess which of these authors does not like goons, and which either likes us or is ambivalent?
(hint the answer is that I'm pretty sure Brendan Drain was the guy who mittens ripped a new one over his sensationalist "reporting" of the fanfest fiasco) |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:38:00 -
[1287] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote: Because they realized their design was flawed and was producing aweful results. Does that mean they should punish players who played according to that design?
Punishment and reversing the gains are two different things. No need to make something a federal case when you can just negate the impact and move on.
You'll note CCP didn't use the word play. They used the word abuse.
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:39:00 -
[1288] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:[quote=darmwand] it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry. Except its nothing like that? Except where it is, yeah. Please explain, in detail, how it is like that. You can't make claims and back them up with nothing but 'Yes it is!' if you want anyone to see you as anything but a meaningless NPC alt troll. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Innywuhne
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:41:00 -
[1289] - Quote
It sure does look like Hans Jagerblitzen and Kelduum are being severely schooled by their fellow CSM members. You guys are in waaaaaaay over your heads. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:41:00 -
[1290] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing.
The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument.
Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\
|
|
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:41:00 -
[1291] - Quote
corestwo wrote:The considerably different tone in these articles is amusing. Guess which of these authors does not like goons, and which either likes us or is ambivalent? (hint the answer is that I'm pretty sure Brendan Drain was the guy who mittens ripped a new one over his sensationalist "reporting" of the fanfest fiasco)
and in both cases it will drive new players to eve. and thats why this is such a fine edged blade that ccp dance on. (and no other game company ever will I suspect) |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:44:00 -
[1292] - Quote
Vokanic wrote:corestwo wrote:The considerably different tone in these articles is amusing. Guess which of these authors does not like goons, and which either likes us or is ambivalent? (hint the answer is that I'm pretty sure Brendan Drain was the guy who mittens ripped a new one over his sensationalist "reporting" of the fanfest fiasco) and in both cases it will drive new players to eve. and thats why this is such a fine edged blade that ccp dance on. (and no other game company ever will I suspect) I know its stories like this that brought me, and quite a few RL friends who play, to join EVE. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:44:00 -
[1293] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:[quote=darmwand] it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry. Except its nothing like that? Except where it is, yeah. Please explain, in detail, how it is like that. You can't make claims and back them up with nothing but 'Yes it is!' if you want anyone to see you as anything but a meaningless NPC alt troll.
Please provide a 10 page essay summarizing your thesis with complete references (I want library stuff, not internet!)
Let's try this again:
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
You gamed the game. That's an exploit. You didn't make things appear out of thin air, there were 3 steps you had to take first, whoppity-do big difference. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:44:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing. The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\ Yes, CCP's decision is king here, as always, and if they label it an exploit, that's their perogative. However, most players - the ones without an axe to grind, anyway - can look at this and tell that there is a clear difference between an obvious glitch such as in the ferrogel case, and this.
Vokanic wrote:and in both cases it will drive new players to eve. and thats why this is such a fine edged blade that ccp dance on. (and no other game company ever will I suspect)
Indeed. Stories like this, stories about massive corp thefts and scams, stories of huge fleet battles - this is what draws people to eve. Stories of mining rocks in empire? Not so much... |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
693
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:45:00 -
[1295] - Quote
These are some good comments:
AwesomeAssassin says: 05:19pm June 22 2012 wonder if ccp do anything about it, though i like that the whole universe of eve is "on its own", not altered so much by ccp.
Computer (Easy) says: 05:19pm June 22 2012 Eve Online: Economic Anarchy at it's Extreme. Edit: More like economic lunacy.
impishrazor says: 05:29pm June 22 2012 That is ******* awesome. . |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:46:00 -
[1296] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing. The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\ The only people I've seen use the word abuse are goon haters and people supporting their argument. Checkmate, atheist. |
Lord Zim
905
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:48:00 -
[1297] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Yes, the group of people who dislike us would surely not use any opportunity to twist and maim the truth in any way shape or form, kind of like they did when the mittani incident hit. You know, the incident where the players and the media probably did more damage by repeatedly and loudly spread the miner's name, everywhere.
No sirree, that group is honourable. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
151
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:48:00 -
[1298] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
You gamed the game. That's an exploit. You didn't make things appear out of thin air, there were 3 steps you had to take first, whoppity-do big difference.
So your proof that this is like duping minerals at a POS is a post from CCP Sreegs that confirms they are looking to what occurred. Gotcha. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:49:00 -
[1299] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Please provide a 10 page essay summarizing your thesis with complete references (I want library stuff, not internet!) Let's try this again: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.You gamed the game. That's an exploit. You didn't make things appear out of thin air, there were 3 steps you had to take first, whoppity-do big difference. I didn't say quote Sreegs, ex-CEO of Goonswarm, the man who said they were there to ruin your game, said in a knee jerk reaction to what at first glance would appear to be a bug(tho a good, solid look shows its usage of game mechanics, for the most part) said.
YOU are making accusations. The burden of proof is on YOU.
Or are you not familiar with the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty?
Edit: Oh, and don't point fingers at me. I am not a goon, and I am in particular not one of the 5 people who masterminded this. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:51:00 -
[1300] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing. The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\ The only people I've seen use the word abuse are goon haters and people supporting their argument. Checkmate, atheist.
And CCP on page 3.. or is it 4?
GOAAAAAAAAAL |
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
151
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:52:00 -
[1301] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1517550#post1517550
CCP karkur wrote:I'm not sure... I'm a girl/female/woman and I didn't know the "correct" answer
There is a quote from CCP karkur stating that she is a woman/girl/female. Therefore I can only assume that using a microwarpdrive to warp in 10 seconds is an exploit. |
BolsterBomb
Bane Inc INQUISITION.
97
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:52:00 -
[1302] - Quote
90% of these people in this thread has forget one key thing
THIS IS EVE
CONGRATS TO THE GOONS on a job well done. They did the testing, they did the work and they figured it out.
This is eve. If CCP punishes Goons for this it would be absolutely against the spirit of the game.
The goons did not exploit anything. They figured out how the mechanics worked and worked the mechanics.
It is CCP's job to ensure the mechanics work to what they are supposed to work. To say "well we didn't mean it to work that way" is bull. Its your job to ensure it works. If you find a hole you patch it.
Good job GOONS Brig General of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:53:00 -
[1303] - Quote
If you get the thread to page 100, they'll let you keep your stuff.
Lol, no. I was just kidding. But do keep posting about how legit your exploit was. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
892
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:53:00 -
[1304] - Quote
CCP designed the virtual equivalent of a money tree and then called it abuse when somebody set about harvesting.
This reminds me of a story in a really, really old book.
HEY! ONE OF THE CHARACTERS IN THE STORY WAS EVE! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:53:00 -
[1305] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing. The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\ The only people I've seen use the word abuse are goon haters and people supporting their argument. Checkmate, atheist.
Because you didn't read the ******* thread, because you are ******* trolling. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Lord Zim
905
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:55:00 -
[1306] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Because you didn't read the ******* thread, because you are ******* trolling. Nope. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:55:00 -
[1307] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing. The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\ The only people I've seen use the word abuse are goon haters and people supporting their argument. Checkmate, atheist. Because you didn't read the ******* thread, because you are ******* trolling. Pot, meet kettle.
Kettle, meet pot. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:55:00 -
[1308] - Quote
I say set the goon wallet negative the five trillion isk they stole. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:56:00 -
[1309] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:If you get the thread to page 100, they'll let you keep your stuff.
Lol, no. I was just kidding. But do keep posting about how legit your exploit was. are you the same kind of person that was sat in st paul's complaining about how bankers are making lots of money too? |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:56:00 -
[1310] - Quote
michael boltonIII wrote:Haha, these are the moments that really show that really show that some people are playing the game on a different level. I have prepared my tear collection equipment and wait with baited breadth for highsec players to commence filling my vats.
Level?
This is just a variation of a basic theme that has been around in EVE for like forever...raising its head now and then when mechanics change or new items/game play is introduced. I am very sure many such schemes on a much smaller scale have been going on.
It was the first question I asked myself when I saw the mechanics....WTF...it is just so obvious the system is flawed and easily rigged. But you need to be extremely rich to make big bucks from it or very patient and hope no one else finds out for a long time (good luck with that).
The obvious glaring hole in FW is that both sides are controlled by players and the rewards come form NPC. Team up and you got a win and that is exactly what goons did. All they had to do is trick the NPC into using a ridicules price!
Goons beat the C-team that is CCP when it comes to insight, thinking and mechanics (they got a terrible record). SInce this is a PvP sandbox as all the big mouth 0.0 players have always claimed. Why not nullify all their illicit gains? If that is impossible, just take the 100b form each player and ban them forever afterwards, so they cannot buy new characters (many will have done so already no doubt).
Either way, CCP must act, else this game is rigged for eternity, with so much wealth at the hands of so few that are basically a form a ISK cartel. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3867
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:56:00 -
[1311] - Quote
Nice pixels. I love this game!
Wonder what will happen now...
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Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:58:00 -
[1312] - Quote
http://eveinfo.net/wiki/ind~1919.htm
For those who want to know more about Darius JOHNSON. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
492
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:58:00 -
[1313] - Quote
corestwo wrote: Yes, CCP's decision is king here, as always, and if they label it an exploit, that's their perogative. However, most players - the ones without an axe to grind, anyway - can look at this and tell that there is a clear difference between an obvious glitch such as in the ferrogel case, and this.
Indeed. Stories like this, stories about massive corp thefts and scams, stories of huge fleet battles - this is what draws people to eve. Stories of mining rocks in empire? Not so much...
No axe to grind here - supported Gameplay (no matter by whom) when it was good. This is obviously not functioning as intended, and so isn't good.
vOv
No biggie - CCP will deal with it how they want.
Flashfresh and his blog, along with "Guiding Hand Social Club" activities brought me originally to Eve - Huge Fleet Battles? Not so much, unless Honor Harrington was in command...
You know there's something fundamentally wrong when the only way people can think of to promote the "best" part of the game is to make everything else suck more. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:58:00 -
[1314] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing. The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\ The only people I've seen use the word abuse are goon haters and people supporting their argument. Checkmate, atheist. Because you didn't read the ******* thread, because you are ******* trolling. Because I actually read the post of Sreeg, and he talked of "manpulation", not "abuse". |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:59:00 -
[1315] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Either way, CCP must act, else this game is rigged for eternity with so much wealth at the hands of so few.
You think that "this much wealth" in so few players hands is anything new?
For example, have you looked at how much Somer Blink has paid out lately, and then considered how much his rake on top of that much be? It makes us look like a bunch of beggars. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:00:00 -
[1316] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing. The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\ Yes, CCP's decision is king here, as always, and if they label it an exploit, that's their perogative. However, most players - the ones without an axe to grind, anyway - can look at this and tell that there is a clear difference between an obvious glitch such as in the ferrogel case, and this. Vokanic wrote:and in both cases it will drive new players to eve. and thats why this is such a fine edged blade that ccp dance on. (and no other game company ever will I suspect) Indeed. Stories like this, stories about massive corp thefts and scams, stories of huge fleet battles - this is what draws people to eve. Stories of mining rocks in empire? Not so much...
True.
But stories about how exploiting factional warfare by blowing up your own ships with alts does not drive new players to a game, unless they hope they too can exploit it, and god knows we don't need more of these types of players.
Do you really think suiciding you own ships into your own alts is "emerging" gameplay?
No, that is a black eye to the CCP dev team and not something they are going to put into a cool video.
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:01:00 -
[1317] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:Either way, CCP must act, else this game is rigged for eternity with so much wealth at the hands of so few. You think that "this much wealth" in so few players hands is anything new? For example, have you looked at how much Somer Blink has paid out lately, and then considered how much his rake on top of that much be? It makes us look like a bunch of beggars. Lets not forget Akita T, or Chribba.
Those are the rich bastards ruining your game. They make most people's wallets look like my RL bank account. Empty. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:01:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Please provide a 10 page essay summarizing your thesis with complete references (I want library stuff, not internet!) Let's try this again: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.You gamed the game. That's an exploit. You didn't make things appear out of thin air, there were 3 steps you had to take first, whoppity-do big difference. I didn't say quote Sreegs, ex-CEO of Goonswarm, the man who said they were there to ruin your game, said in a knee jerk reaction to what at first glance would appear to be a bug(tho a good, solid look shows its usage of game mechanics, for the most part) said. YOU are making accusations. The burden of proof is on YOU. Or are you not familiar with the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty? Edit: Oh, and don't point fingers at me. I am not a goon, and I am in particular not one of the 5 people who masterminded this.
Are there bugs that are not usage of game mechanics?
Like, they use bugs in other games to make ... wait.
I OBJECT your honor. *points finger* YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH
I doubt it was a knee jerk reaction. It was a follow up to a public company statement about a security investigation, probably had several CCP staff review it, stamp it. Dignitaries of dignitaries and that sort of thing. It's all rather complicated.
They do that type of thing all the time for legit gameplay. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:01:00 -
[1319] - Quote
Quote: Pot, meet kettle.
Kettle, meet pot.
That's a load of horse ****. There's a world of difference between saying something you know will **** someone off, and saying something you know will **** someone off intentionally without reading the thread. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:02:00 -
[1320] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:I say set the goon wallet negative the five trillion isk they stole.
No. but you are on the right track of thinking. this is what i think should happen 1> all those in the FW get the isk remoced from their wallet whether they gave it to another toon or corp or alliance. 2> all isk given to a toon, Corp, or alliance wallet is also removed charging a fine to doubling the amount. 3> all those in the FW are 30 day ban including any alt accounts that they may have 4> All those behind the planning are 30 day ban 5> all those who supported this are 60day bans.
With this here ALL the GOONs and their pets would be banned in this for a minimum of 30days and will return to negative wallets. well hopefully negative wallets and their space claimed by someone else. xDeath would have new space then |
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Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
892
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:03:00 -
[1321] - Quote
CCP's always asking us to Beta Test their software in a commercial environment after it's deemed "ready for release."
We pay for a half-baked half-developed product at least half the time.
All Goons did here was some really, really good Beta Testing.
Nevermind the initial feedback that was ignored, right? A Viking's gonna do what a Viking's gonna do...
We couldn't change that then. We can't change that now. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
344
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:04:00 -
[1322] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:
True.
But stories about how exploiting factional warfare by blowing up your own ships with alts does not drive new players to a game, unless they hope they too can exploit it, and god knows we don't need more of these types of players.
Sure it does. The draw of EVE is the beautiful sandbox. Oh sure, someone might take a steaming dump in it from time to time, or leave tire tracks all over it, but that is the point. You don't get this type of sandbox anywhere else. It is the sole territory of EVE. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:05:00 -
[1323] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote: True.
But stories about how exploiting factional warfare by blowing up your own ships with alts does not drive new players to a game, unless they hope they too can exploit it, and god knows we don't need more of these types of players.
Do you really think suiciding you own ships into your own alts is "emerging" gameplay?
No, that is a black eye to the CCP dev team and not something they are going to put into a cool video.
Stories of people able to completely own the game like this ARE why people join.
People said the same thing you are saying about burn jita. I sat in a chatroom for one of the live streams while this was going on. I saw a good number of people see what was going on, ask about it and be told the truth, and immediately ask for a buddy invite so they could check it out. They wanted to be in a game where a few people could completely dominate like this, because hey, if they work hard enough, it could be them.
And its true, any noob, given the investment, motivation, and intelligence, can compete on this level with the best of them.
You should be ashamed that you are whining about it instead of trying to compete. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:05:00 -
[1324] - Quote
Goons did something - QUICK TO THE EVE O FENCE TO LET GOONS KNOW HOW PUBBIES FEEL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gROO7xSTxfY
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:07:00 -
[1325] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote: Stories of people able to completely own the game like this ARE why people join.
truth, it's why i joined the game. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:08:00 -
[1326] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: Are there bugs that are not usage of game mechanics?
The tracking bug in wormholes. That was a bug, not a mechanic. You should learn the difference before you open your mouth about the issue. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Aliaksandre
Black Rebel Rifter Club
46
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:09:00 -
[1327] - Quote
So awesome. All of it. |
Lord Zim
905
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:11:00 -
[1328] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Are there bugs that are not usage of game mechanics? It was working as designed. Not working as designed would be a bug, this wasn't a bug.
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:I doubt it was a knee jerk reaction. It was a follow up to a public company statement about a security investigation, probably had several CCP staff review it, stamp it. Dignitaries of dignitaries and that sort of thing. It's all rather complicated.
They do that type of thing all the time for legit gameplay. Oh, you know how CCP works now? |
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:12:00 -
[1329] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Thanks for ruining the FW and the LP market you attention starved jerks! About time you shove off and ruin a different game don't you think?! I look forward to your bans for exploiting game mechanics and will be here drinking in the oceans of tears from your fellow alliance mates crying about how their buddy was given the kick to the curb.
-2 accounts till goons are removed from the game. They say they bring content, but it is in fact a complete load of bullshit.
COOL STORY BRO.
TELL IT AGAIN.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3710
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:15:00 -
[1330] - Quote
still waiting on cipher jones proof he unsubbed |
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Drazn
Zervas Aeronautics WHY so Seri0Us
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:15:00 -
[1331] - Quote
Here is when the Ban hammer comes crashing down. |
Khergit Deserters
Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:16:00 -
[1332] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
It wasnt a bug. OK, not a bug. If we define a bug as a technical glitch, rather than an exploitable feature of the rules/game design. I believe CCP has considered some non-'bug' things as exploits before, no? In any event, the intent and purpose of the TOS provision is apparent from its language. Exploit... to gain an unfair advantage over other players. And then, in a separate issue, You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. In any event, it's a manipulation of the game system to achieve an unintended result, of a pretty massive scale. Looks, walks and smells like an exploit to me. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:16:00 -
[1333] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Are there bugs that are not usage of game mechanics? It was working as designed. Not working as designed would be a bug, this wasn't a bug.
Unfortunately the focus isn't on working as designed, it's working as intended. Intended being the same word the EULA uses.
Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:I doubt it was a knee jerk reaction. It was a follow up to a public company statement about a security investigation, probably had several CCP staff review it, stamp it. Dignitaries of dignitaries and that sort of thing. It's all rather complicated.
They do that type of thing all the time for legit gameplay. Oh, you know how CCP works now?
oh yeah, i got all the inside infos. goons got nothing on my irc channels
Tallian Saotome wrote: The tracking bug in wormholes. That was a bug, not a mechanic. You should learn the difference before you open your mouth about the issue.
5 points House Slytherin.
And I didn't open my mouth.. I opened my keyboard. Or was it my modem? Points redacted.
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Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:17:00 -
[1334] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote: The only people I've seen use the word abuse are goon haters and people supporting their argument. Checkmate, atheist.
The only people I've seen, who say all legit within the sandbox are goon lovers and people supporting their argument. Checkmate, atheist.
It is not so easy, you know ... but maybe too hard to understand for you.
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
893
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:18:00 -
[1335] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I bolded your poorly-considered confessions for you.
It sort of looks like a whole faction was complaining and you admitted to making billions off their woes to me, Hans.
And it also looks like you're glad the Goons were manipulating the system, because now you seem to think you're justified in ignoring your oppositions' complaints.
[sarcasm]Higher standards could not be had![/sarcasm] You're absolutely right, other Minmatar certainly cashed out quite nicely during this spike, I however missed the boat. Last Saturday was the first time I'd sat down to grind LP, and ironically missed the big window Also, the Amarr have outright said they are plexing using Minmatar alts, so my enemies cashed out during this spike as well. As for my opposition's complaints, they were never ignored. The two biggest warnings I gave CCP prior to Inferno release were to not go with full station lockout, and to not have extreme LP scaling. These are also the two biggest concerns that my enemy's had, and continue to have. At the recent summit, I once again asked for station docking to be moved to a system upgrade, not a permanent feature. With the Goon exploit coming to light, now the developers can see what I warned them about - that maybe this extreme LP scaling might have unforseen consequences. What I've ignored since inferno's release, is the idea that Faction Warfare is somehow "destroyed" and that the Amarr situation is "hopeless". Everyone who argued against dockblocking (including myself) said it would kill the activity level throughout the warzone. The opposite has occured. I have a responsibility to argue for changes based on the *consequences* observed on Tranquility, and not to stick to rhetoric that crumbles under current events suggesting otherwise. Many Amarr claimed station lockout would make seizing systems impossible, that also turned out not to be true. It is only the doomsday predictions that have been thoroughly debunked since Inferno's release that I have ignored, I continue to pass on legitimate feedback to CCP on a regular basis. I am relieved that the market manipulation has ended not because my enemies have *nothing* legitimate to complain about, I am relieved that there is now a much more accurate picture of the war being documented so that everyone, friend and foe alike, can see whether or not things are as "hopeless" as some Amarr claim. If the mechanics are balanced enough to allow for a comeback despite the lack of Goon warzone control backing, we're in good shape. If the war continues to stagnate and remains one-sided, than my warnings to CCP about imbalance will be vindicated and maybe they'll listen to me in the future on these issues instead of saying "EVE isn't fair" and releasing the system as they saw fit. First, I have to emphasize that this is not personal. You are a representative and therefore subject to scrutiny.
Second, I'd say this is pretty doomsday and went on for long enough that you should have reacted to the needs of your constituency. Instead, according to Goon accounts, Minmatar FW as a whole did a bunch of back-patting when Tier 5 was reached in nearly every system. You had to know that was impossible. Further, you were obligated to listen to your opposition, who were obviously saying that something was wrong - a snowball effect.
Finally, I wish you good luck in damage control, spinning this as favorably as possible, and in general doing a better job of separating your two roles in Eve Online. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
151
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:20:00 -
[1336] - Quote
Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended
ehlp |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:20:00 -
[1337] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
It wasnt a bug. OK, not a bug. If we define a bug as a technical glitch, rather than an exploitable feature of the rules/game design. I believe CCP has considered some non-'bug' things as exploits before, no? In any event, the intent and purpose of the TOS provision is apparent from its language. Exploit... to gain an unfair advantage over other players.And then, in a separate issue, You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum.In any event, it's a manipulation of the game system to achieve an unintended result, of a pretty massive scale. Looks, walks and smells like an exploit to me. Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
893
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:20:00 -
[1338] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
It wasnt a bug. OK, not a bug. If we define a bug as a technical glitch, rather than an exploitable feature of the rules/game design. I believe CCP has considered some non-'bug' things as exploits before, no? In any event, the intent and purpose of the TOS provision is apparent from its language. Exploit... to gain an unfair advantage over other players.And then, in a separate issue, You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum.In any event, it's a manipulation of the game system to achieve an unintended result, of a pretty massive scale. Looks, walks and smells like an exploit to me. One time CCP called an entire advertised feature a bug, then an exploit. They ninja-edited all the advertising proaganda regarding it and named it Ghost Training.
So yeah, CCP will do what they want. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lord Zim
905
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:21:00 -
[1339] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Unfortunately the focus isn't on working as designed, it's working as intended. Intended being the same word the EULA uses. Were BOB banned for POS bowling? Were NCdot, Raidendot, ev0ke and PL banned for using a feature "not as intended" (i.e. tracking titans to blap subcaps) to get access to tech? Were hisec pubbies banned for abusing neutral logistics? Were anyone banned for abusing the wardec mechanics by dogpiling on each and every public war? |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:21:00 -
[1340] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
It wasnt a bug. OK, not a bug. If we define a bug as a technical glitch, rather than an exploitable feature of the rules/game design. I believe CCP has considered some non-'bug' things as exploits before, no? In any event, the intent and purpose of the TOS provision is apparent from its language. Exploit... to gain an unfair advantage over other players.And then, in a separate issue, You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum.In any event, it's a manipulation of the game system to achieve an unintended result, of a pretty massive scale. Looks, walks and smells like an exploit to me. You should quote that TOS part completely:
Quote:You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website. The important part is "bug". This relate to exploiting "bugs". Poorly designed mechanism are not bugs. |
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Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:21:00 -
[1341] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended
ehlp
goons go in, LP comes out. its easy
obviously not an exploit |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:22:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Unfortunately the focus isn't on working as designed, it's working as intended. Intended being the same word the EULA uses. Were BOB banned for POS bowling? Were NCdot, Raidendot, ev0ke and PL banned for using a feature "not as intended" (i.e. tracking titans to blap subcaps) to get access to tech? Were hisec pubbies banned for abusing neutral logistics? Were anyone banned for abusing the wardec mechanics by dogpiling on each and every public war?
I never said anything about banning anyone. But do continue with whatever you are saying.
edit: can you get your A team guys out here? this B team stuff is just getting lazy |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:22:00 -
[1343] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable. Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore." |
Lord Zim
905
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:23:00 -
[1344] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Unfortunately the focus isn't on working as designed, it's working as intended. Intended being the same word the EULA uses. Were BOB banned for POS bowling? Were NCdot, Raidendot, ev0ke and PL banned for using a feature "not as intended" (i.e. tracking titans to blap subcaps) to get access to tech? Were hisec pubbies banned for abusing neutral logistics? Were anyone banned for abusing the wardec mechanics by dogpiling on each and every public war? I never said anything about banning anyone. But do continue with whatever you are saying. Were any of them reacted against in any, way or form? |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:24:00 -
[1345] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended
ehlp goons go in, LP comes out. its easy obviously not an exploit I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
894
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:25:00 -
[1346] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Unfortunately the focus isn't on working as designed, it's working as intended. Intended being the same word the EULA uses. Were BOB banned for POS bowling? Were NCdot, Raidendot, ev0ke and PL banned for using a feature "not as intended" (i.e. tracking titans to blap subcaps) to get access to tech? Were hisec pubbies banned for abusing neutral logistics? Were anyone banned for abusing the wardec mechanics by dogpiling on each and every public war? I never said anything about banning anyone. But do continue with whatever you are saying. edit: can you get your A team guys out here? this B team stuff is just getting lazy Please explain the difference between a feature working as designed and a feature working as intended.
I feel that they are virtually synonymous in this context, regardless of their respective denotative distinctiveness.
I eagerly await an explanation of how a system can be designed specifically to achieve different results than intended. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:25:00 -
[1347] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable. Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore."
This is also how I read it. CCP has to ensure that the sandbox remains healthy. Hence all action must cease until they have time to evaluate the situation. It boils down to scale. 5T, isn't very big given hundreds of billions a day in those markets. But say, if it had been 50? The consequences would have been too long term. |
Imawuss
Indecisive Technologies
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:27:00 -
[1348] - Quote
People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:27:00 -
[1349] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable. Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore." The 'don't do it anymore' is the basic format that has been used through the years to let people know something is an exploit.
Is this hard to understand?
It WAS NOT and exploit, til he said that.
Ofc, CCP has been known to play underhanded on things like this before, wouldn't surprise me if they did it again. Especially since Sreegs is a former goon CEO who kinda has to be seen making an anti-goon stand or take huge flak for cheating to help his alliance, even tho he is not stupid enough to risk his job doing so. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Nathan Ernaga
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:27:00 -
[1350] - Quote
Something for a pore soul, good sires ? Pleeeaase
Who plays the game wins. |
|
Lord Zim
905
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:28:00 -
[1351] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:edit: can you get your A team guys out here? this B team stuff is just getting lazy ahaha the "I'm losing so I'm going to go the insult route to win" strategy. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:29:00 -
[1352] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.
This was deflationary. ISK was removed from the system. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:29:00 -
[1353] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game.
That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant.
Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:30:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended
ehlp goons go in, LP comes out. its easy obviously not an exploit I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you.
Well no. When I blow up an enemy BC and get LP for market value for his items that isn't an exploit.
However gaming the market to inflate values of items, then blowing up ships I filled full of the items I just inflated the values of to produce ungodly LP payouts.... that might be an exploit.
This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:31:00 -
[1355] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:corestwo wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable. Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore." The 'don't do it anymore' is the basic format that has been used through the years to let people know something is an exploit. Is this hard to understand? It WAS NOT and exploit, til he said that. Ofc, CCP has been known to play underhanded on things like this before, wouldn't surprise me if they did it again. Especially since Sreegs is a former goon CEO who kinda has to be seen making an anti-goon stand or take huge flak for cheating to help his alliance, even tho he is not stupid enough to risk his job doing so.
I don't think you understand Sreegs. There is no one quicker to f*** goons than Sreegs. He has also personally f'ed me in the past. Just sayin. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2096
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:32:00 -
[1356] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.
Truthfully, 5T really isn't all that huge a number when talking about the volume of ISK that moves around in the EVE economy every day. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:32:00 -
[1357] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game. That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant. Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game?
No. Because Chribba didn't exploit the game to get his.
How about the scope of the LP/LP items gained vs the current market supply. The impact on hundreds if not thousands of missioners LP who actually played the game the way it's intended. Might that be worth discussing?
Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday? |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
894
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:33:00 -
[1358] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended
ehlp goons go in, LP comes out. its easy obviously not an exploit I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you. Well no. When I blow up an enemy BC and get LP for market value for his items that isn't an exploit. However gaming the market to inflate values of items, then blowing up ships I filled full of the items I just inflated the values of to produce ungodly LP payouts.... that might be an exploit. This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you. You know how CCP says they don't protect people from scams in Eve?
Yeah, by not listening to warnings of tying the market value to ISK, CCP refused to protect themselves from being scammed.
Long live the kings of the scam! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Kazini Jax
Starlight Operations Starlight Network
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:33:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Well, that's it for me. You are a joke, CCP. There really is no point in playing a game that can be won by the person who has the most money to buy PLEX and turn it into ISK (I might as well play RL). But when incompetent programming and logic causes **** like this to repeatedly happen, **** it. No point.
Oh, and CCP, quit calling your joke a 'sandbox'. It MAY be a sandbox relative to other games out there, but a TRUE sandbox is a game where ONLY the physics of the universe is programmed into it. So to call this game a sandbox is a serious fail.. much like your programming!
Bye New Eden |
Lord Zim
905
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:34:00 -
[1360] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. The conclusion of this is correct, but I'm not sure you can really call it a bug or exploit. I think the best term to use is an exploitable design, which means that it's a bad design which CCP must and will change.
Imawuss wrote:The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. No isk was made, in fact isk was sunk. |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2096
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:34:00 -
[1361] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended
ehlp goons go in, LP comes out. its easy obviously not an exploit I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you. Well no. When I blow up an enemy BC and get LP for market value for his items that isn't an exploit. However gaming the market to inflate values of items, then blowing up ships I filled full of the items I just inflated the values of to produce ungodly LP payouts.... that might be an exploit. This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you.
To my knowledge gaming the market to inflate the value of specific items isn't an exploit either... nor is blowing up your own ships.
This isn't as cut and dried as it may seem at first blush. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
693
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:35:00 -
[1362] - Quote
Aryth wrote:This was deflationary. ISK was removed from the system.
And this is the end of the matter. The 68 pages of 'mad' right here fall into 2 categories: the usual goon haters and those who wish they got a piece of the action.
. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2096
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:37:00 -
[1363] - Quote
Kazini Jax wrote:Well, that's it for me. You are a joke, CCP. There really is no point in playing a game that can be won by the person who has the most money to buy PLEX and turn it into ISK (I might as well play RL). But when incompetent programming and logic causes **** like this to repeatedly happen, **** it. No point.
Oh, and CCP, quit calling your joke a 'sandbox'. It MAY be a sandbox relative to other games out there, but a TRUE sandbox is a game where ONLY the physics of the universe is programmed into it. So to call this game a sandbox is a serious fail.. much like your programming!
Bye New Eden
Waves a cheerful farewell. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:38:00 -
[1364] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended
ehlp goons go in, LP comes out. its easy obviously not an exploit I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you. Well no. When I blow up an enemy BC and get LP for market value for his items that isn't an exploit. However gaming the market to inflate values of items, then blowing up ships I filled full of the items I just inflated the values of to produce ungodly LP payouts.... that might be an exploit. This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you. To my knowledge gaming the market to inflate the value of specific items isn't an exploit either... nor is blowing up your own ships. This isn't as cut and dried as it may seem at first blush.
No, but when you put the two together all of a sudden you have CCP releasing security statements.
You can't really spin the illegitimacy by pointing out the simple seemingly legit stepstaken to get there.
No one issues security statements when I shoot a blue or kill a war target because I was playing the game, not finding exploits. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:39:00 -
[1365] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday? The EULA wasn't violated.
Keep telling yourself that B team. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:39:00 -
[1366] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote: Stories of people able to completely own the game like this ARE why people join.
truth, it's why i joined the game.
Plenty more people will be disgusted by being cheated out and some of those will leave. I cant see your case as an argument to support scamming NPC and thereby making many other efforts in EVE pointless! |
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:40:00 -
[1367] - Quote
at CCP's complete and total incompetence regarding their own game design.
at CCP's stupidity for allowing elements of GoonSwarm into their midst as employees and volunteers.
at Hilmar's seeming erectile disfunction in the face of this sort of thing. (Correction: Hilmar would have to have the necessary equiptment to suffer ED, and Vile Rat and The Mittanni clearly have those specific body parts in their hip pockets.)
Does anyone still think there isn't an inherent play balance issue in EVE now?
Yeah, go on... just ban me and stick your head in the sand like you always do.
"BUTTERFLY EFFECT".... my arse. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:40:00 -
[1368] - Quote
Kazini Jax wrote:Well, that's it for me. You are a joke, CCP. There really is no point in playing a game that can be won by the person who has the most money to buy PLEX and turn it into ISK (I might as well play RL). But when incompetent programming and logic causes **** like this to repeatedly happen, **** it. No point.
Oh, and CCP, quit calling your joke a 'sandbox'. It MAY be a sandbox relative to other games out there, but a TRUE sandbox is a game where ONLY the physics of the universe is programmed into it. So to call this game a sandbox is a serious fail.. much like your programming!
Bye New Eden
You'll be back, and in the meantime would you like me to watch your valuables for you? In other words "stuff, can i haz?"
This is how I felt when T20 first came to light. Swore EvE off forever, yet, here I am and guess what, it still happening. Isn't it fun?!
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:41:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: No. Because Chribba didn't exploit the game to get his.
How about the scope of the LP/LP items gained vs the current market supply. The impact on hundreds if not thousands of missioners LP who actually played the game the way it's intended. Might that be worth discussing?
Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday?
They didn't exploit to get theirs, either.
You can say they did all day long, but unless you can provide PROOF you may as well spend the same time farting on your keyboard.
At this point, all you are doing is going 'Is so is so!!!' like a 5 year old. At this point you need to provide your evidence that they did in fact exploit. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
895
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:42:00 -
[1370] - Quote
I keep waiting for PA to explain how you can design a system specifically to work in a way other than intended. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:42:00 -
[1371] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:However gaming the market to inflate values of items Not an exploit.
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:then blowing up ships Not an exploit.
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:to produce ungodly LP payouts This is the system working as designed. It's a bad design, much like titans are wrt tracking, neutral logi alts, POS bowling, carriers filled with iterons stuffed full of stuff etc etc etc, and it's a design CCP is going to change.
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you. While you seem to have given in fully to your goon hate. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
346
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:42:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think you understand Sreegs. There is no one quicker to f*** goons than Sreegs. He has also personally f'ed me in the past. Just sayin. I don't know much about him, other than a bit of his history. I just didn't wanna look like an ******* by accusing him of going f***goons if he was still of relatively friendly terms
If anything, I think he goes extra hard on us to avoid the appearance of favoritism. At least that is what I tell myself when staring at 25b hole in my wallet. |
Imawuss
Indecisive Technologies
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:43:00 -
[1373] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game. That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant. Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game?
5 trillion (if that is the real number) made by ill-gotten means in a short period of time. It has taken EVE 9 years to accumulate 300 trillion in circulation, you just added 5 trillion in less than a month by only a select few. Using a system not as intended. I'm sure that adding 1% of eves total wealth in such a short time to 1 alliance (the best troll alliance as well) and a select few will not have any negative affects at all...
Not sure why i'm discussing this as the money will soon be back in CCP's hands, if they don't it makes a for a very bad precedent, and will only further the goon/ccp conspiracies.
|
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:43:00 -
[1374] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:I keep waiting for PA to explain how you can design a system specifically to work in a way other than intended. Just like we wait for jade to tell us how LP create isk? |
Zraheb Lee
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:44:00 -
[1375] - Quote
Since uh.. Since you guys have a ton of cash, mind if someone spots me about 1bil?
On a serious note. I think stuff like this is exactly what Eve Online is all about. You guys gamed the system, manipulated factional warfare, and came out on top. CCP even benefits from all of this. Why? Because they learn from this experience and evolve this ever changing game a little more.
Everyone say: Happy Birthday Zraheb Lee! I turned 31 today (yay). |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2096
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:45:00 -
[1376] - Quote
Quote:This isn't as cut and dried as it may seem at first blush.
Quote:No, but when you put the two together all of a sudden you have CCP releasing security statements.
You can't really spin the illegitimacy by pointing out the simple seemingly legit stepstaken to get there.
No one issues security statements when I shoot a blue or kill a war target because I was playing the game, not finding exploits.
If CCP in a fit of insanity modified the bounty system so that the payout for a bounty was doubled if the target was a war target of yours, and so you start a war with one of your own alts and energetically start doubling your money by setting bounties and blowing him up repeatedly, you are not exploiting the system.
All you would be doing is making legitimate use of a very poorly thought out game mechanic.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:45:00 -
[1377] - Quote
I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
348
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:45:00 -
[1378] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game. That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant. Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game? 5 trillion (if that is the real number) made by ill-gotten means in a short period of time. It has taken EVE 9 years to accumulate 300 trillion in circulation, you just added 5 trillion in less than a month by only a select few. Using a system not as intended. I'm sure that adding 1% of eves total wealth in such a short time to 1 alliance (the best troll alliance as well) and a select few will not have any negative affects at all... Not sure why i'm discussing this as the money will soon be back in CCP's hands, if they don't it makes a for a very bad precedent, and will only further the goon/ccp conspiracies.
You clearly don't understand the thread if you think we added or have 5T liquid ISK from this. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:46:00 -
[1379] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:However gaming the market to inflate values of items Not an exploit. Pr1ncess Alia wrote:then blowing up ships Not an exploit. Pr1ncess Alia wrote:to produce ungodly LP payouts This is the system working as designed. It's a bad design, much like titans are wrt tracking, neutral logi alts, POS bowling, carriers filled with iterons stuffed full of stuff etc etc etc, and it's a design CCP is going to change. Pr1ncess Alia wrote:This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you. While you seem to have given in fully to your goon hate.
"If I keep pointing out the simple steps taken to perform teh exploit it will magically not be an exploit anymore." |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:46:00 -
[1380] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think you understand Sreegs. There is no one quicker to f*** goons than Sreegs. He has also personally f'ed me in the past. Just sayin. I don't know much about him, other than a bit of his history. I just didn't wanna look like an ******* by accusing him of going f***goons if he was still of relatively friendly terms If anything, I think he goes extra hard on us to avoid the appearance of favoritism. At least that is what I tell myself when staring at 25b hole in my wallet. Thats exactly what I was trying to say originally, lol.
Back when he first started there were alot of accusations that he was gonna go T20 and give goons the game. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:47:00 -
[1381] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:This isn't as cut and dried as it may seem at first blush. Quote:No, but when you put the two together all of a sudden you have CCP releasing security statements.
You can't really spin the illegitimacy by pointing out the simple seemingly legit stepstaken to get there.
No one issues security statements when I shoot a blue or kill a war target because I was playing the game, not finding exploits. If CCP in a fit of insanity modified the bounty system so that the payout for a bounty was doubled if the target was a war target of yours, and so you start a war with one of your own alts and energetically start doubling your money by setting bounties and blowing him up repeatedly, you are not exploiting the system. All you would be doing is making legitimate use of a very poorly thought out game mechanic.
Lol, that sounds pretty exploity to me.
Do that for 12 hrs, rake in a few hundred billion and then sit back and talk about how legit it all was until you log in with a negative wallet balance. You wouldn't be the first. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:48:00 -
[1382] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Irya Boone
Escadron leader La League des mondes libres
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:49:00 -
[1383] - Quote
good ... i knew it !!
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:50:00 -
[1384] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I keep waiting for PA to explain how you can design a system specifically to work in a way other than intended. Just like we wait for jade to tell us how LP create isk?
You will need to link me to the post where I said that.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
348
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:50:00 -
[1385] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS.
It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. |
Khergit Deserters
Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:50:00 -
[1386] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Not an exploit? 23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
What do you think, CCP?
It wasnt a bug. OK, not a bug. If we define a bug as a technical glitch, rather than an exploitable feature of the rules/game design. I believe CCP has considered some non-'bug' things as exploits before, no? In any event, the intent and purpose of the TOS provision is apparent from its language. Exploit... to gain an unfair advantage over other players.And then, in a separate issue, You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum.In any event, it's a manipulation of the game system to achieve an unintended result, of a pretty massive scale. Looks, walks and smells like an exploit to me. You should quote that TOS part completely: Quote:You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website. The important part is "bug". This relate to exploiting "bugs". Poorly designed mechanism are not bugs. Err, we're going in circles now. Infinite loop of "Is not!" and "Is so!" |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:51:00 -
[1387] - Quote
Imawuss wrote: 5 trillion (if that is the real number) made by ill-gotten means in a short period of time. It has taken EVE 9 years to accumulate 300 trillion in circulation, you just added 5 trillion in less than a month by only a select few. Using a system not as intended. I'm sure that adding 1% of eves total wealth in such a short time to 1 alliance (the best troll alliance as well) and a select few will not have any negative affects at all...
Not sure why i'm discussing this as the money will soon be back in CCP's hands, if they don't it makes a for a very bad precedent, and will only further the goon/ccp conspiracies.
The isk came from other players, genius. Its not new isk in the system, as a matter of fact(as has been stated repeatedly) they REMOVED a considerable amount of isk from the game, to the tune of a few hundred billion.
They made all of us ever so slightly richer, because all our isk is now worth slightly more. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:51:00 -
[1388] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday? The EULA wasn't violated. Keep telling yourself that B team. Heh. More insults. Weak.
So, since you claim the EULA was violated, can you point out where? Because all I've seen are legal game mechanics working as designed, and auxilliary tools which CCP have specifically allowed. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:52:00 -
[1389] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I keep waiting for PA to explain how you can design a system specifically to work in a way other than intended. Just like we wait for jade to tell us how LP create isk? You will need to link me to the post where I said that.
Here ya go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C1x71fSt2s
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:52:00 -
[1390] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. I know. I self destructed a few hundred iteron IIIs as a noob to make some easy isk to buy a mission domi with.
e: I was referring to manipulating the price of EAS if insurance gets linked to market price Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:53:00 -
[1391] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:Better Than You wrote:I say set the goon wallet negative the five trillion isk they stole. No. but you are on the right track of thinking. this is what i think should happen 1> all those in the FW get the isk remoced from their wallet whether they gave it to another toon or corp or alliance. 2> all isk given to a toon, Corp, or alliance wallet is also removed charging a fine to doubling the amount. 3> all those in the FW are 30 day ban including any alt accounts that they may have 4> All those behind the planning are 30 day ban 5> all those who supported this are 60day bans. With this here ALL the GOONs and their pets would be banned in this for a minimum of 30days and will return to negative wallets. well hopefully negative wallets and their space claimed by someone else. xDeath would have new space then
AAA Citizens a rogue goon |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2097
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:54:00 -
[1392] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:This isn't as cut and dried as it may seem at first blush. Quote:No, but when you put the two together all of a sudden you have CCP releasing security statements.
You can't really spin the illegitimacy by pointing out the simple seemingly legit stepstaken to get there.
No one issues security statements when I shoot a blue or kill a war target because I was playing the game, not finding exploits. If CCP in a fit of insanity modified the bounty system so that the payout for a bounty was doubled if the target was a war target of yours, and so you start a war with one of your own alts and energetically start doubling your money by setting bounties and blowing him up repeatedly, you are not exploiting the system. All you would be doing is making legitimate use of a very poorly thought out game mechanic. Lol, that sounds pretty exploity to me. Do that for 12 hrs, rake in a few hundred billion and then sit back and talk about how legit it all was until you log in with a negative wallet balance. You wouldn't be the first.
Yet people kill their own alts to reap bounties that others put on them every day in EVE.
The only difference is that in the example above CCP also introduced a very badly thought out game mechanic that made it more profitable than usual.
They used poorly thought out but legitimate game mechanics to do what they did.
There was no bug that was exploited, nothing was broken or not functioning as intended.
The mechanic itself was what the problem was... it was a bad design decision on CCP's part. All the Goons did was play the game as designed... AFTER pointing out that it was a bad design. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1344
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:55:00 -
[1393] - Quote
Okay let's break this down.
Manipulating the market value of an item isn't against the rules, right? Right. Allowing your ship to be blown up and destroyed isn't against the rules, right? Right. Receiving LP based on amount of isk destroyed relative to others isn't against the rules, right? Right. Those are the rules.
At best, you can accuse Aryth of using badly designed game mechanics in a fashion that is completely within the rules but against what the game designer's intent was. CCP has the right to change the game mechanics to be more in line with what their original intent was. But that doesn't mean Aryth was breaking the rules or using an 'exploit'. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:56:00 -
[1394] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote: Stories of people able to completely own the game like this ARE why people join.
truth, it's why i joined the game. Plenty more people will be disgusted by being cheated out and some of those will leave. I cant see your case as an argument to support scamming NPC and thereby making many other efforts in EVE pointless! How is it pointless? Can you no longer make any isk of your own because they did this? Did they somehow make CONCORD decide you don't get bounties anymore, or the SCC decide you cannot use the market? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:56:00 -
[1395] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I keep waiting for PA to explain how you can design a system specifically to work in a way other than intended. Just like we wait for jade to tell us how LP create isk? You will need to link me to the post where I said that. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1516782#post1516782
Jade Constantine wrote: Initially that is exactly what was happening though ...
To repeat. When you kill a ship in faction warfare (belonging to the enemy faction) you get loyalty points awarded equal to the value of the ship + cargo. These freighters that were being killed on alts were awarding loyalty point payouts (for the kill) that also counted in the cargo that had dropped in space (and thus could be added to a future kill and payout). That really is double counting and is creating (if not isk) then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.)
That (as I understand it) was the bug that got fixed early, but I didn't see any note in the op post suggesting that LP has been removed from the game - its even referred to as "seed" (or foundation) LP for the continuing scheme.
Learn to edit.
|
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:56:00 -
[1396] - Quote
What Pisov viet said. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3715
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:57:00 -
[1397] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: "If I keep pointing out the simple steps taken to perform teh exploit it will magically not be an exploit anymore."
I'm actually going to talk to you like an adult here, so lets hope it works.
The difference between an exploit and an unintended and undesirable use of game mechanics is that an exploit allows you, through various methods, to break a rule of the game. I will use an example from another game: Alpha Centauri, a great game, had a bug where if you gave the keyboard command for an airdrop, it would only let you do one per turn (as intended). If you used the mouse command, you could do as many as you wanted. That's an exploit, despite you doing nothing really wrong (hell many people who only used the mouse were unaware this limit was supposed to be there).
On the other hand, a perfectly intended use of game mechanics - self-destructing missiles with a fusion or greater reactor - is incredibly overpowered and lets you wipe out stacks of units in a way that wasn't really thought though well. No part of it breaks the rules - it does damage to all surrounding units, just as intended - but it's really overpowered and something you patch out or make a house rule against.
The key reason this is not an exploit is no rules were broken. The system functioned exactly as it was supposed to. Manipulating the price of an item is and always has been allowed (and is commonly used for margin scamming, or convincing people to sell stuff at a reduced price or buy it at an inflated price). Blowing up your own stuff to collect the proceeds is and always has been allowed. The issue is that once you combine the two, you get a situation that breaks no rule, but is highly undesirable (the generation of LP at a very low isk cost). If the mechanism allowed you to generate LP for free, there would be an argument it's breaking a rule of the game. But it didn't: every LP point you got cost you a specific amount of isk.
Since this is undesirable, the devs will naturally patch it out. But because it was perfectly legitimate when done, it's clearly not something that people should be punished for. When it comes to confiscating the products of the scheme, I think it's clear that shouldn't be done as well - it would be an unfair punishment - unless the amounts generated were so vast the health of the game demanded it. That's a factual question that we can disagree over, but from my understanding of the market this is not a gamebreaking amount. For the vast majority of the time when these five were dumping, implant prices weren't artificially low: they merely were at their historical average instead of the spiked post-inferno price. This is a lot of money for these involved - sadly, I am not one of them and must be content with my vast guidance system riches - but it's not an amount that will seriously affect markets or devalue LP. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:57:00 -
[1398] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game. That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant. Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game? No. Because Chribba didn't exploit the game to get his. How about the scope of the LP/LP items gained vs the current market supply. The impact on hundreds if not thousands of missioners LP who actually played the game the way it's intended. Might that be worth discussing? Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday?
If we'd gone out of our way to purposefully and maliciously crash the LP markets - which we easily could have - you might have something to talk about here.
As it is, implants and whatnot are just as valuable as ever. We have a delicate touch. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:58:00 -
[1399] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday? The EULA wasn't violated. Keep telling yourself that B team. Heh. More insults. Weak. So, since you claim the EULA was violated, can you point out where? Because all I've seen are legal game mechanics working as designed, and auxilliary tools which CCP have specifically allowed.
The part where it states you can't use the legal game mechanics in a way to give you unintended gains over other players.
That part.
We'll see what CCP says over what exactly was intended, but based on what they've said already it's not looking good for your side of the argument.
Until then, your side will continue to insist it's legitimacy pointing out how different it is from other exploits while at the same time insisting CCP won't take the stuff back because of how they handled other exploits that were like theirs. I mean completely different from theirs. Or something. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:00:00 -
[1400] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. And that actually did create new isk in the economy. This didn't; all we did was transfer isk from many, many players to ourselves. |
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:00:00 -
[1401] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game. That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant. Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game? No. Because Chribba didn't exploit the game to get his. How about the scope of the LP/LP items gained vs the current market supply. The impact on hundreds if not thousands of missioners LP who actually played the game the way it's intended. Might that be worth discussing? Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday? If we'd gone out of our way to purposefully and maliciously crash the LP markets - which we easily could have - you might have something to talk about here. As it is, implants and whatnot are just as valuable as ever. We have a delicate touch.
Boy, I sure hope someone at CCP doesn't come along and make you "less smug".
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
895
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:00:00 -
[1402] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday? The EULA wasn't violated. Keep telling yourself that B team. Heh. More insults. Weak. So, since you claim the EULA was violated, can you point out where? Because all I've seen are legal game mechanics working as designed, and auxilliary tools which CCP have specifically allowed. The part where it states you can't use the legal game mechanics in a way to give you unintended gains over other players. That part. We'll see what CCP says over what exactly was intended, but based on what they've said already it's not looking good for your side of the argument. Until then, your side will continue to insist it's legitimacy pointing out how different it is from other exploits while at the same time insisting CCP won't take the stuff back because of how they handled other exploits that were like theirs. I mean completely different from theirs. Or something. These gains weren't over other players. They were from other players. With the help of bad game design. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:01:00 -
[1403] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I keep waiting for PA to explain how you can design a system specifically to work in a way other than intended. Just like we wait for jade to tell us how LP create isk? You will need to link me to the post where I said that. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1516782#post1516782Jade Constantine wrote: Initially that is exactly what was happening though ...
To repeat. When you kill a ship in faction warfare (belonging to the enemy faction) you get loyalty points awarded equal to the value of the ship + cargo. These freighters that were being killed on alts were awarding loyalty point payouts (for the kill) that also counted in the cargo that had dropped in space (and thus could be added to a future kill and payout). That really is double counting and is creating (if not isk) then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.)
That (as I understand it) was the bug that got fixed early, but I didn't see any note in the op post suggesting that LP has been removed from the game - its even referred to as "seed" (or foundation) LP for the continuing scheme.
Learn to edit.
I think you need to read better.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
152
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:01:00 -
[1404] - Quote
nice try Weasoliar |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:02:00 -
[1405] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.) Tell us more about how loyalty points can be turned into isk from thin air. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:04:00 -
[1406] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: The part where it states you can't use the legal game mechanics in a way to give you unintended gains over other players.
Crap. Falcon pilots, you are all gonna get banned.
So are all the titan pilots.
Oh, and every member of a tech holding alliance.
And anyone who takes part in large, alpha based fleets.
And anyone who collects a huge bounty, then kills himself with his alt to collect said bounty.
Lets not forget the people who get rich off of the things like this that happen *every single expansion*.
I'm sure I am missing a category, but if that rule read the way you think it does, then 75% of the player in this game would be banned, including you I would bet. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:04:00 -
[1407] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.) Tell us more about how loyalty points can be turned into isk from thin air.
Why would I do that when the full quote clearly doesn't make that claim. You are just being silly.
I was staying the bug effectively doubled LP "from thin air" because it was double counting LP on stuff from the killmail (while allowing the looted cargo to be counted again in the next killmail) LP can be turned into isk (by getting items that can be sold on the market) - I'm really sure what point you are trying to make.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:04:00 -
[1408] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about holy **** a rogue goon |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
895
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:04:00 -
[1409] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.)
Jade Constantine wrote:I think you need to read better.
No you. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Ayllia Saken
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:05:00 -
[1410] - Quote
The skill and execution of this ploy is admirable, right down to the forum fighting. However, I do not think letting it pass is good for the game, or CCP.
5Trillion ISK has been mentioned, reportedly earned by 5 players, between the release of Inferno (May 22?) and the date of this thread starting June 21. It has also been claimed that the OP received most of the ISK. While I am sure those players put a lot of hours into the game in the last month, and during the testing of Inferno prior to that, this strikes me as a rather impressive ISK/hour rate.
If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
If it stands then Station Trading and Industry, are all "second rank" activities, like level 3 missions, and all true Industry greats should spend their time reading devblogs line by line, and gaming various situations via Excel or in-game. The very public announcement and boasting increases the perceived impact of this ploy, and also the need for action. |
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:06:00 -
[1411] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote:I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money? you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about holy **** Yeah, you guys have done way too good of a job hiding the titanswarm. People really do believe it doesn't exist, which means I must have been high as hell the day we killed a station in 4 minutes. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3717
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:07:00 -
[1412] - Quote
Ayllia Saken wrote: If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
This has existed in EVE since Entity became the first isklord by buying up all of the DCII bpos. More to the point it has in the past few years existed since Tyrannis's "whoops we probably should have unseeded that stuff" incident.
The end-game of the financial game is and always has been getting money by knowing more than everyone else. That's how you make staggering sums of money: everything else is just working for a wage. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:07:00 -
[1413] - Quote
Ayllia Saken wrote:If it stands then Station Trading and Industry, are all "second rank" activities, like level 3 missions, and all true Industry greats should spend their time reading devblogs line by line, and gaming various situations via Excel or in-game. The very public announcement and boasting increases the perceived impact of this ploy, and also the need for action.
This has always been the way to make huge piles of money. The OP was already very nearly a trillionaire thanks to the patch that introduced PI, for example. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:07:00 -
[1414] - Quote
Ayllia Saken wrote:If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. uhhh....
It pretty much always has been. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
694
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:07:00 -
[1415] - Quote
Ayllia Saken wrote:The skill and execution of this ploy is admirable, right down to the forum fighting. However, I do not think letting it pass is good for the game, or CCP.
Free publicity in the gaming press is good. Greed is good. Goons are better. Emergent gameplay = the best
If it wasn't for this latest caper you guys would be arguing or trolling the price of Zydrine or something equally as thrilling. . |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:08:00 -
[1416] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.) Tell us more about how loyalty points can be turned into isk from thin air. Why would I do that when the full quote clearly doesn't make that claim. You are just being silly. Oh really, it clearly states "then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air).
Tell me more about how loyalty points can be turned into isk (from thin air). |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:08:00 -
[1417] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. I know. I self destructed a few hundred iteron IIIs as a noob to make some easy isk to buy a mission domi with. e: I was referring to manipulating the price of EAS if insurance gets linked to market price
That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:09:00 -
[1418] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: "If I keep pointing out the simple steps taken to perform teh exploit it will magically not be an exploit anymore."
I'm actually going to talk to you like an adult here, so lets hope it works. The difference between an exploit and an unintended and undesirable use of game mechanics is that an exploit allows you, through various methods, to break a rule of the game. I will use an example from another game: Alpha Centauri, a great game, had a bug where if you gave the keyboard command for an airdrop, it would only let you do one per turn (as intended). If you used the mouse command, you could do as many as you wanted. That's an exploit, despite you doing nothing really wrong (hell many people who only used the mouse were unaware this limit was supposed to be there). On the other hand, a perfectly intended use of game mechanics - self-destructing missiles with a fusion or greater reactor - is incredibly overpowered and lets you wipe out stacks of units in a way that wasn't really thought though well. No part of it breaks the rules - it does damage to all surrounding units, just as intended - but it's really overpowered and something you patch out or make a house rule against. The key reason this is not an exploit is no rules were broken. The system functioned exactly as it was supposed to. Manipulating the price of an item is and always has been allowed (and is commonly used for margin scamming, or convincing people to sell stuff at a reduced price or buy it at an inflated price). Blowing up your own stuff to collect the proceeds is and always has been allowed. The issue is that once you combine the two, you get a situation that breaks no rule, but is highly undesirable (the generation of LP at a very low isk cost). If the mechanism allowed you to generate LP for free, there would be an argument it's breaking a rule of the game. But it didn't: every LP point you got cost you a specific amount of isk. Since this is undesirable, the devs will naturally patch it out. But because it was perfectly legitimate when done, it's clearly not something that people should be punished for. When it comes to confiscating the products of the scheme, I think it's clear that shouldn't be done as well - it would be an unfair punishment - unless the amounts generated were so vast the health of the game demanded it. That's a factual question that we can disagree over, but from my understanding of the market this is not a gamebreaking amount. For the vast majority of the time when these five were dumping, implant prices weren't artificially low: they merely were at their historical average instead of the spiked post-inferno price. This is a lot of money for these involved - sadly, I am not one of them and must be content with my vast guidance system riches - but it's not an amount that will seriously affect markets or devalue LP.
I'm going to also talk to you like an adult, I'm confident that will not work.
Alpha Centari aside, the focus of your argument is the difference between an exploit and unintended undesirable use of game mechanics. I get that.
What you don't seem to understand is the similarities. Both are a violation of the EULA, it details this very specifically. Both are considered cheating by definition. If the one wasn't, it wouldn't be considered unintended and it wouldn't be detailed in the EULA.
No one debates the fact the mechanic was broken. They admittedly maximized gains on it to a game breaking level. If I refer to it as an exploit, it's a matter of semantics, not a crushing defeat to my argument.
They want bragging rights for performing an unintended stunt with game mechanics but at the same time want to insist it doesn't break any rules even though the EULA (the rules) says you can't do just that. Cognitive dissonance at its best. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
349
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:10:00 -
[1419] - Quote
Ayllia Saken wrote: If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
This has been the endgame since the launch of EVE. Market manipulation and speculation is what we do day to day. This isn't a new thing for me or others, this is regular gameplay. This one just combined a few different mechanics into one larger system. But if you aren't patch speculating on each new CCP addition to the game, then you are really missing out on a cool part of EVE. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:11:00 -
[1420] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. I know. I self destructed a few hundred iteron IIIs as a noob to make some easy isk to buy a mission domi with. e: I was referring to manipulating the price of EAS if insurance gets linked to market price That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected. It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :)
Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know. |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2488
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:11:00 -
[1421] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.) Tell us more about how loyalty points can be turned into isk from thin air. Why would I do that when the full quote clearly doesn't make that claim. You are just being silly. Oh really, it clearly states "then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air). Tell me more about how loyalty points can be turned into isk (from thin air).
You chopped off the end of a statement to try to twist its meaning into something else. Is this amateur hour at the mass debating society or something?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:11:00 -
[1422] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. I know. I self destructed a few hundred iteron IIIs as a noob to make some easy isk to buy a mission domi with. e: I was referring to manipulating the price of EAS if insurance gets linked to market price That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected. It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Uh, as one of those 0.0 folk, we already HAVE corp/alliance supplied insurance. I have not paid for a pvp ship lost in combat in 2 years, and for the past 6 months I've been flying capitals exclusively. Those of us in nullsec would be hurt the LEAST(well, those of us who have moons).
I can guarantee this, as the dude who does my corp level Ship Replacement Program. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:12:00 -
[1423] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:What you don't seem to understand is the similarities. Both are a violation of the EULA, it details this very specifically. Both are considered cheating by definition. If the one wasn't, it wouldn't be considered unintended and it wouldn't be detailed in the EULA. So, what about tracking titans? neutral logis? falcons? POS bowling? carriers with full cargorigged and expanded iterons? neutral alts circumventing wardecs? |
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:13:00 -
[1424] - Quote
Welp...
GOONS WIN !!
Time to go play HAWKEN... I hear the beta is open. |
Khergit Deserters
Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:13:00 -
[1425] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: "If I keep pointing out the simple steps taken to perform teh exploit it will magically not be an exploit anymore."
I'm actually going to talk to you like an adult here, so lets hope it works. The difference between an exploit and an unintended and undesirable use of game mechanics is that an exploit allows you, through various methods, to break a rule of the game. I will use an example from another game: Alpha Centauri, a great game, had a bug where if you gave the keyboard command for an airdrop, it would only let you do one per turn (as intended). If you used the mouse command, you could do as many as you wanted. That's an exploit, despite you doing nothing really wrong (hell many people who only used the mouse were unaware this limit was supposed to be there). On the other hand, a perfectly intended use of game mechanics - self-destructing missiles with a fusion or greater reactor - is incredibly overpowered and lets you wipe out stacks of units in a way that wasn't really thought though well. No part of it breaks the rules - it does damage to all surrounding units, just as intended - but it's really overpowered and something you patch out or make a house rule against. The key reason this is not an exploit is no rules were broken. The system functioned exactly as it was supposed to. Manipulating the price of an item is and always has been allowed (and is commonly used for margin scamming, or convincing people to sell stuff at a reduced price or buy it at an inflated price). Blowing up your own stuff to collect the proceeds is and always has been allowed. The issue is that once you combine the two, you get a situation that breaks no rule, but is highly undesirable (the generation of LP at a very low isk cost). If the mechanism allowed you to generate LP for free, there would be an argument it's breaking a rule of the game. But it didn't: every LP point you got cost you a specific amount of isk. Since this is undesirable, the devs will naturally patch it out. But because it was perfectly legitimate when done, it's clearly not something that people should be punished for. When it comes to confiscating the products of the scheme, I think it's clear that shouldn't be done as well - it would be an unfair punishment - unless the amounts generated were so vast the health of the game demanded it. That's a factual question that we can disagree over, but from my understanding of the market this is not a gamebreaking amount. For the vast majority of the time when these five were dumping, implant prices weren't artificially low: they merely were at their historical average instead of the spiked post-inferno price. This is a lot of money for these involved - sadly, I am not one of them and must be content with my vast guidance system riches - but it's not an amount that will seriously affect markets or devalue LP. Well said, I have to admit. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
895
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:13:00 -
[1426] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Weaselior wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: "If I keep pointing out the simple steps taken to perform teh exploit it will magically not be an exploit anymore."
I'm actually going to talk to you like an adult here, so lets hope it works. The difference between an exploit and an unintended and undesirable use of game mechanics is that an exploit allows you, through various methods, to break a rule of the game. I will use an example from another game: Alpha Centauri, a great game, had a bug where if you gave the keyboard command for an airdrop, it would only let you do one per turn (as intended). If you used the mouse command, you could do as many as you wanted. That's an exploit, despite you doing nothing really wrong (hell many people who only used the mouse were unaware this limit was supposed to be there). On the other hand, a perfectly intended use of game mechanics - self-destructing missiles with a fusion or greater reactor - is incredibly overpowered and lets you wipe out stacks of units in a way that wasn't really thought though well. No part of it breaks the rules - it does damage to all surrounding units, just as intended - but it's really overpowered and something you patch out or make a house rule against. The key reason this is not an exploit is no rules were broken. The system functioned exactly as it was supposed to. Manipulating the price of an item is and always has been allowed (and is commonly used for margin scamming, or convincing people to sell stuff at a reduced price or buy it at an inflated price). Blowing up your own stuff to collect the proceeds is and always has been allowed. The issue is that once you combine the two, you get a situation that breaks no rule, but is highly undesirable (the generation of LP at a very low isk cost). If the mechanism allowed you to generate LP for free, there would be an argument it's breaking a rule of the game. But it didn't: every LP point you got cost you a specific amount of isk. Since this is undesirable, the devs will naturally patch it out. But because it was perfectly legitimate when done, it's clearly not something that people should be punished for. When it comes to confiscating the products of the scheme, I think it's clear that shouldn't be done as well - it would be an unfair punishment - unless the amounts generated were so vast the health of the game demanded it. That's a factual question that we can disagree over, but from my understanding of the market this is not a gamebreaking amount. For the vast majority of the time when these five were dumping, implant prices weren't artificially low: they merely were at their historical average instead of the spiked post-inferno price. This is a lot of money for these involved - sadly, I am not one of them and must be content with my vast guidance system riches - but it's not an amount that will seriously affect markets or devalue LP. I'm going to also talk to you like an adult, I'm confident that will not work. Alpha Centari aside, the focus of your argument is the difference between an exploit and unintended undesirable use of game mechanics. I get that. What you don't seem to understand is the similarities. Both are a violation of the EULA, it details this very specifically. Both are considered cheating by definition. If the one wasn't, it wouldn't be considered unintended and it wouldn't be detailed in the EULA. No one debates the fact the mechanic was broken. They admittedly maximized gains on it to a game breaking level. If I refer to it as an exploit, it's a matter of semantics, not a crushing defeat to my argument. They want bragging rights for performing an unintended stunt with game mechanics but at the same time want to insist it doesn't break any rules even though the EULA (the rules) says you can't do just that. Cognitive dissonance at its best. Posting to confirm Eve is broken. Nobody can buy Fleet Issue Stabbers.
Nobody can log in.
Please explain how a system can be designed to achieve results other than those intended. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:14:00 -
[1427] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: The part where it states you can't use the legal game mechanics in a way to give you unintended gains over other players.
Crap. Falcon pilots, you are all gonna get banned. So are all the titan pilots. Oh, and every member of a tech holding alliance. And anyone who takes part in large, alpha based fleets. And anyone who collects a huge bounty, then kills himself with his alt to collect said bounty. Lets not forget the people who get rich off of the things like this that happen *every single expansion*. I'm sure I am missing a category, but if that rule read the way you think it does, then 75% of the player in this game would be banned, including you I would bet.
Wow, so I guess CCP will probably apologize to goons and remove that from the EULA then huh?
Much more likely than them taking all that stuff back.
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:15:00 -
[1428] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Weaselior wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: "If I keep pointing out the simple steps taken to perform teh exploit it will magically not be an exploit anymore."
I'm actually going to talk to you like an adult here, so lets hope it works. The difference between an exploit and an unintended and undesirable use of game mechanics is that an exploit allows you, through various methods, to break a rule of the game. I will use an example from another game: Alpha Centauri, a great game, had a bug where if you gave the keyboard command for an airdrop, it would only let you do one per turn (as intended). If you used the mouse command, you could do as many as you wanted. That's an exploit, despite you doing nothing really wrong (hell many people who only used the mouse were unaware this limit was supposed to be there). On the other hand, a perfectly intended use of game mechanics - self-destructing missiles with a fusion or greater reactor - is incredibly overpowered and lets you wipe out stacks of units in a way that wasn't really thought though well. No part of it breaks the rules - it does damage to all surrounding units, just as intended - but it's really overpowered and something you patch out or make a house rule against. The key reason this is not an exploit is no rules were broken. The system functioned exactly as it was supposed to. Manipulating the price of an item is and always has been allowed (and is commonly used for margin scamming, or convincing people to sell stuff at a reduced price or buy it at an inflated price). Blowing up your own stuff to collect the proceeds is and always has been allowed. The issue is that once you combine the two, you get a situation that breaks no rule, but is highly undesirable (the generation of LP at a very low isk cost). If the mechanism allowed you to generate LP for free, there would be an argument it's breaking a rule of the game. But it didn't: every LP point you got cost you a specific amount of isk. Since this is undesirable, the devs will naturally patch it out. But because it was perfectly legitimate when done, it's clearly not something that people should be punished for. When it comes to confiscating the products of the scheme, I think it's clear that shouldn't be done as well - it would be an unfair punishment - unless the amounts generated were so vast the health of the game demanded it. That's a factual question that we can disagree over, but from my understanding of the market this is not a gamebreaking amount. For the vast majority of the time when these five were dumping, implant prices weren't artificially low: they merely were at their historical average instead of the spiked post-inferno price. This is a lot of money for these involved - sadly, I am not one of them and must be content with my vast guidance system riches - but it's not an amount that will seriously affect markets or devalue LP. I'm going to also talk to you like an adult, I'm confident that will not work. Alpha Centari aside, the focus of your argument is the difference between an exploit and unintended undesirable use of game mechanics. I get that. What you don't seem to understand is the similarities. Both are a violation of the EULA, it details this very specifically. Both are considered cheating by definition. If the one wasn't, it wouldn't be considered unintended and it wouldn't be detailed in the EULA. No one debates the fact the mechanic was broken. They admittedly maximized gains on it to a game breaking level. If I refer to it as an exploit, it's a matter of semantics, not a crushing defeat to my argument. They want bragging rights for performing an unintended stunt with game mechanics but at the same time want to insist it doesn't break any rules even though the EULA (the rules) says you can't do just that. Cognitive dissonance at its best. Once again, back up your claims that it violates the EULA. Unintended, undesirable effects of intended game mechanics have never been a violation in EVE, as long as no dev has stated that that particular one is an exploit yet.
That did not happen til this thread. Go do it now, its an exploit. The people who did it a week ago, not an exploit. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:16:00 -
[1429] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Please explain how a system can be designed to achieve results other than those intended.
I suppose maybe the whole thing we have been discussing for 70 pages might be a good example.
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:16:00 -
[1430] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote:I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money? you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about holy **** Yeah, you guys have done way too good of a job hiding the titanswarm. People really do believe it doesn't exist, which means I must have been high as hell the day we killed a station in 4 minutes.
you really have to be live under a rock to miss something like this a rogue goon |
|
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:16:00 -
[1431] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:LP can be turned into isk (by getting items that can be sold on the market) - I'm really sure what point you are trying to make. Yes, but that's not what you said. What you said was that the LP could be turned into isk (from thin air). |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3718
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:16:00 -
[1432] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: What you don't seem to understand is the similarities. Both are a violation of the EULA, it details this very specifically. Both are considered cheating by definition. If the one wasn't, it wouldn't be considered unintended and it wouldn't be detailed in the EULA.
It's not detailed in the EULA. CCP has never punished for a legitimate use of game mechanics that was a tremendously bad idea, and shouldn't. The difference between punishing someone for breaking one of the rules of the game, and punishing someone for doing something within the rules of the game that people decide is not a good idea is very significant. Nobody will ever advocate banning old titan pilots who used remote doomsdays, despite how hilariously broken it made fleet combat for some time. Nobody will ever advocate banning a titan pilot who jumped out of a bubble before titans were made tackleable, despite how broken that was.
Plus, you're not actually arguing anything. You're just stating something and repeating it a lot: you're never able to elucidate why the distinction doesn't matter: you have an end you want, so you simply decree it is how it ought to be.
This is a game that rewards thinking outside the box. It's why people play. That's why you can't punish it, and CCP never has. |
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:16:00 -
[1433] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ayllia Saken wrote: If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
This has been the endgame since the launch of EVE. Market manipulation and speculation is what we do day to day. This isn't a new thing for me or others, this is regular gameplay. This one just combined a few different mechanics into one larger system. But if you aren't patch speculating on each new CCP addition to the game, then you are really missing out on a cool part of EVE. ******
Except for the part where it requires an army of 5000 coordinaated participants to break the reasonably intended bounds of the game feature...
Lack of game balance for the fail. |
Innywuhne
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:16:00 -
[1434] - Quote
since it's down to 5 or 6 people sniping each other, why don't you all STFU and open a chat channel.
CCP isn't going to a damn thing when all is said and done. Too many "innocent" people were acting in good faith and separating them out from those who weren't is now impossible. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
895
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:17:00 -
[1435] - Quote
Actually, by ignoring the warnings and putting this in anyway, CCP tacitly agreed that this is a stellar idea and dared it to be done.
They did not release a statement with Inferno saying, "You better not blow up your own boats after manipulating the market!!!"
Even though they were warned of this.
Looks like tacit agreement to me. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:17:00 -
[1436] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: The part where it states you can't use the legal game mechanics in a way to give you unintended gains over other players.
Crap. Falcon pilots, you are all gonna get banned. So are all the titan pilots. Oh, and every member of a tech holding alliance. And anyone who takes part in large, alpha based fleets. And anyone who collects a huge bounty, then kills himself with his alt to collect said bounty. Lets not forget the people who get rich off of the things like this that happen *every single expansion*. I'm sure I am missing a category, but if that rule read the way you think it does, then 75% of the player in this game would be banned, including you I would bet. Wow, so I guess CCP will probably apologize to goons and remove that from the EULA then huh? Much more likely than them taking all that stuff back. :cripes: You are as thick as two short planks.
You are misinterpreting the EULA. Deliberately, I am sure. None of those things are exploits, and neither was this, by the curently existing definition. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:18:00 -
[1437] - Quote
Comrade Commizzar wrote:Except for the part where it requires an army of 5 coordinaated participants to break the reasonably intended bounds of the game feature...
ftfy a rogue goon |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
930
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:18:00 -
[1438] - Quote
I really don't envy the CCP team right now. On the one hand, the temptation to do something is outrageous I'm sure. On the other hand, technically speaking Aryth and the rest of the Economic specialists in Goonswarm did absolutely nothing wrong, they just happened to do this absolutely nothing wrong to an unhealthy extreme. Or, if you prefer, a "Goonish" extreme.
On the other hand, 5 Trillion ISK isn't that much -- that's what, 2, 3 months of Goonswarm's income? I had originally heard that it was 1 Quadrillion (1000 Trillion) ISK, which gave me the strangest feeling in my happy spot.
As an aside: It's kinda funny, but I'm pretty sure Goonswarm "employs" more Economics Majors than CCP does. ;)
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:18:00 -
[1439] - Quote
Innywuhne wrote:since it's down to 5 or 6 people sniping each other, why don't you all STFU and open a chat channel.
CCP isn't going to a damn thing when all is said and done. Too many "innocent" people were acting in good faith and separating them out from those who weren't is now impossible. That would require logging into the game.
We can't be having that, you know. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:19:00 -
[1440] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1516782#post1516782Jade Constantine wrote: Initially that is exactly what was happening though ...
To repeat. When you kill a ship in faction warfare (belonging to the enemy faction) you get loyalty points awarded equal to the value of the ship + cargo. These freighters that were being killed on alts were awarding loyalty point payouts (for the kill) that also counted in the cargo that had dropped in space (and thus could be added to a future kill and payout). That really is double counting and is creating (if not isk) then loyalty points that can be turned into isk (from thin air.)
That (as I understand it) was the bug that got fixed early, but I didn't see any note in the op post suggesting that LP has been removed from the game - its even referred to as "seed" (or foundation) LP for the continuing scheme.
Learn to edit.
I think you need to read better.[/quote] Then please teach me.
Oh wait, you did it again
Quote:LP can be turned into isk (by getting items that can be sold on the market) I guess the part where Eve is a free market and where LP store require isk in addition of LP just flew over your head. |
|
Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:20:00 -
[1441] - Quote
you've got goons SPECIFICALLY stating they EXPLOITED, things in the new system, yet they aren't getting hit for EXPLOITS, your supposed to report exploits not use them to your will thats what i have been told over and over again, in fact i know LOTS of people that got banned for MUCH less exploit usage, or posting, and yet this isn't being punished yet? |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:20:00 -
[1442] - Quote
Comrade Commizzar wrote:Aryth wrote:Ayllia Saken wrote: If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
This has been the endgame since the launch of EVE. Market manipulation and speculation is what we do day to day. This isn't a new thing for me or others, this is regular gameplay. This one just combined a few different mechanics into one larger system. But if you aren't patch speculating on each new CCP addition to the game, then you are really missing out on a cool part of EVE. ****** Except for the part where it requires an army of 5000 coordinaated participants to break the reasonably intended bounds of the game feature... Lack of game balance for the fail. I love people who tell me how many friends I am allowed to have and work with Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Betrinna Cantis
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:20:00 -
[1443] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not. That might make sense. If it were not for the fact that punishing people who did nothing in a system that they are paying you to use will only drive away innocent, paying customers. CCP not doing anything about something is one thing, them actively pushing a 9000 person group for the actions of 5 of them will just cause them to go out of business. After all, if that happens, what happens when someone joins your corp, and then violates the rules? Will you happily accept punishment for actions you did not know about, by someone you cannot control? Or would you, like any sane person, say 'F this, I'm cancelling my account and CCP gets no more of my money?' Good point. But if a member of my corporation ever had done something like this,the banhammer would have already fallen and the thread would have died 68 pages ago. Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1570
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:20:00 -
[1444] - Quote
Karadion Kohlar wrote:Solstice Project wrote:Hey Goons, got some spare change for me ?
Nice work ! No.
*lol* I wasn't serious. You deserve ever .01 isk of it.
Rightfully so, i think. Taking it away from you would be the wrong thing to do ... ... and i hope CCP doesn't do it. Wouldn't be the smartest move, PR wise either.
Frell, you guys are GENIUSES ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3718
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:20:00 -
[1445] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Wow, so I guess CCP will probably apologize to goons and remove that from the EULA then huh?
Much more likely than them taking all that stuff back.
Once again, you don't really actually understand the argument and can't actually make your own. You're mostly handwaving at the EULA and making arguments based on the premise that whatever CCP decides will be right. But that's useless, of course: what we are discussing is how CCP ought to make the decision. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
349
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:20:00 -
[1446] - Quote
Comrade Commizzar wrote:Aryth wrote:Ayllia Saken wrote: If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
This has been the endgame since the launch of EVE. Market manipulation and speculation is what we do day to day. This isn't a new thing for me or others, this is regular gameplay. This one just combined a few different mechanics into one larger system. But if you aren't patch speculating on each new CCP addition to the game, then you are really missing out on a cool part of EVE. ****** Except for the part where it requires an army of 5000 coordinaated participants to break the reasonably intended bounds of the game feature... Lack of game balance for the fail.
I am not sure what you could be referring to. I have never seen an occurrence where it took more than 20-30 guys to participate in that endgame. Most of the times it's single digits. I do it by myself. I suppose you could be referring to nullsec domination? Far beyond the scope of what I was talking about though. |
Signal11th
538
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:21:00 -
[1447] - Quote
It seems alot of people just can't understand "no rules were broken" get over it FFS God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2594
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:22:00 -
[1448] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:
Second, I'd say this is pretty doomsday and went on for long enough that you should have reacted to the needs of your constituency. Instead, according to Goon accounts, Minmatar FW as a whole did a bunch of back-patting when Tier 5 was reached in nearly every system. You had to know that was impossible. Further, you were obligated to listen to your opposition, who were obviously saying that something was wrong - a snowball effect.
Ahhh, now I see where you're coming from. You're just basing your reaction off Goon reports and not bothering to actually examine the system, otherwise you'd realize that achieving tier 5 is quite possible, and quite easy.
56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP.
Now yes, they Goons propped us up for a period of time, but the idea that we can't ever hit it again is silly. It'll just be lower for a while due to the constant bleed that exists in the system and will require more coordination in timing to achieve the same thing, but its by no means impossible. I know *individual* pilots in the various militias currently capable of bankrolling this themselves.
But by all means, continue to ignore facts and the fact that I've explained twice now that I warned CCP of the "snowball" I got all day.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:22:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Quote:LP can be turned into isk (by getting items that can be sold on the market) I guess the part where Eve is a free market and where LP store require isk in addition of LP just flew over your head. Don't forget the subtle edit from "turned into isk (from thin air)" into "turned into isk (by getting items that can be sold on the market)". |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:23:00 -
[1450] - Quote
Betrinna Cantis wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Betrinna Cantis wrote:The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not. That might make sense. If it were not for the fact that punishing people who did nothing in a system that they are paying you to use will only drive away innocent, paying customers. CCP not doing anything about something is one thing, them actively pushing a 9000 person group for the actions of 5 of them will just cause them to go out of business. After all, if that happens, what happens when someone joins your corp, and then violates the rules? Will you happily accept punishment for actions you did not know about, by someone you cannot control? Or would you, like any sane person, say 'F this, I'm cancelling my account and CCP gets no more of my money?' Good point. But if a member of my corporation ever had done something like this,the banhammer would have already fallen and the thread would have died 68 pages ago. Nope. It might not be a 70+ page thread if it wasn't a goon, but they would not be banned, and if brought to the forums there would still be a huge debate over it.
And I would be backing your friend, because he would have been in the right, and awesome to boot. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:23:00 -
[1451] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I suppose you could be referring to nullsec domination? Far beyond the scope of what I was talking about though.
using our numbers to an advantage in a "massively multiplayer online game" is an exploit
you heard it on eve-o first a rogue goon |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:24:00 -
[1452] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know.
Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:25:00 -
[1453] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:
Second, I'd say this is pretty doomsday and went on for long enough that you should have reacted to the needs of your constituency. Instead, according to Goon accounts, Minmatar FW as a whole did a bunch of back-patting when Tier 5 was reached in nearly every system. You had to know that was impossible. Further, you were obligated to listen to your opposition, who were obviously saying that something was wrong - a snowball effect.
Ahhh, now I see where you're coming from. You're just basing your reaction off Goon reports and not bothering to actually examine the system, otherwise you'd realize that achieving tier 5 is quite possible, and quite easy. 56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP. Now yes, they Goons propped us up for a period of time, but the idea that we can't ever hit it again is silly. It'll just be lower for a while due to the constant bleed that exists in the system and will require more coordination in timing to achieve the same thing, but its by no means impossible. I know *individual* pilots in the various militias currently capable of bankrolling this themselves. But by all means, continue to ignore facts and the fact that I've explained twice now that I warned CCP of the "snowball" I got all day. I'm pretty sure it takes 100k LP to get a system from lvl 4 to lvl 5, and 250k to go from nothing to lvl 5.
So it get to a maximum (to get 56 systems to 5 without owning anything else) of 14m LP. Which isnt that much to begin with in FW. |
Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:25:00 -
[1454] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
Umm last i recall exploiting bugs, even if CCP aren't aware of them yet, is still exploiting werent there people banned for doing crap like that even to the forums, let alone the frigging actual market and game... They exploited a flaw in the system, and did so KNOWINGLY, and then fluanted the fact that they did it thats just begging for repricussions |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3718
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:25:00 -
[1455] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: 56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP.
It is one thing to earh 5.6m LP. It is another to get 5.6m lp donated in a system where you can't discourage free riding. You got t5 only because a group of people controlled so much LP that it was in their interests to jack up the tier themselves: without goons donating you would not have maintained tier4. We know this because you kept nearly falling out of it and getting millions injected to stop you. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:26:00 -
[1456] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Aryth wrote:I suppose you could be referring to nullsec domination? Far beyond the scope of what I was talking about though. using our numbers to an advantage in a "massively multiplayer online game" is an exploit you heard it on eve-o first Nah, people been saying having friends is cheating for years.
Now THAT is something I want to see in the EULA, a clause banning having friends. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:26:00 -
[1457] - Quote
Silly Slot wrote:Umm last i recall exploiting bugs It's not a bug. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
349
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:26:00 -
[1458] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:
Second, I'd say this is pretty doomsday and went on for long enough that you should have reacted to the needs of your constituency. Instead, according to Goon accounts, Minmatar FW as a whole did a bunch of back-patting when Tier 5 was reached in nearly every system. You had to know that was impossible. Further, you were obligated to listen to your opposition, who were obviously saying that something was wrong - a snowball effect.
Ahhh, now I see where you're coming from. You're just basing your reaction off Goon reports and not bothering to actually examine the system, otherwise you'd realize that achieving tier 5 is quite possible, and quite easy. 56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP. Now yes, they Goons propped us up for a period of time, but the idea that we can't ever hit it again is silly. It'll just be lower for a while due to the constant bleed that exists in the system and will require more coordination in timing to achieve the same thing, but its by no means impossible. I know *individual* pilots in the various militias currently capable of bankrolling this themselves. But by all means, continue to ignore facts and the fact that I've explained twice now that I warned CCP of the "snowball" I got all day.
I think you guys are totally capable of going to T5 without propping up. However, it's a big game of prisoners dilemma. Do you have enough people willing to donate so that others can profit on their backs. Spreading out the load obviously makes the barrier lower, but it is still fundamentally a somewhat altruistic act. Something not often found in EVE. The further you guys get from T5 the harder the dilemma gets. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
827
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:27:00 -
[1459] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know. Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics. It already has been, and that caused the insurance nerf.
New to EVE are we? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
153
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:28:00 -
[1460] - Quote
The use of third-party tools such as excel.exe and calc.exe and all variants is hereby banned. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:28:00 -
[1461] - Quote
Silly Slot wrote:Umm last i recall exploiting bugs, even if CCP aren't aware of them yet, is still exploiting werent there people banned for doing crap like that even to the forums, let alone the frigging actual market and game... They exploited a flaw in the system, and did so KNOWINGLY, and then fluanted the fact that they did it thats just begging for repricussions
you're comparing two totally different situations a rogue goon |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4130
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:28:00 -
[1462] - Quote
Xython wrote:I really don't envy the CCP team right now. On the one hand, the temptation to do something is outrageous I'm sure. On the other hand, technically speaking Aryth and the rest of the Economic specialists in Goonswarm did absolutely nothing wrong, they just happened to do this absolutely nothing wrong to an unhealthy extreme. Or, if you prefer, a "Goonish" extreme.
On the other hand, 5 Trillion ISK isn't that much -- that's what, 2, 3 months of Goonswarm's income? I had originally heard that it was 1 Quadrillion (1000 Trillion) ISK, which gave me the strangest feeling in my happy spot.
As an aside: It's kinda funny, but I'm pretty sure Goonswarm "employs" more Economics Majors than CCP does. ;)
Q: How many economics majors does it take to listen to a player who, with facts and figures laid out, points out that a proposed mechanism change could lead to extreme results
A: At least one more than CCP employ, since we've been through this whole thing at least 4 times already that I know of, and almost certainly several times more.
Seriously, the only thing different about this event is that it was specifically goons who benefitted.
And, well... since everyone knows that goonies are naughty bad wrong, then it's obvious that they need to be punished. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:30:00 -
[1463] - Quote
Is it me, or are posts from this thread being erased? I will read so far into the thread, check out another thread or two, return here and find the last post I read a few pages back or outright missing!
My occular implant must be going out again. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:30:00 -
[1464] - Quote
Quote:Because I actually read the post of Sreeg, and he talked of "manpulation", not "abuse".
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:31:00 -
[1465] - Quote
I predict CCP will fail at addressing the real long term problem associated with this game flaw. I believe that up to now the GOONs have not wagged the whole economy on purpose. But when a group has 10s of trillions ISK and many of its members 100s of billions ISK its daily trade manipulations and for a lark experiments can impact large areas of EVE. But those days of disinterest are over.
The problem is that CCP has failed to provide anything meaningful for very wealthy groups to spend their ISK upon -- something MEANINGFUL to an endgame for EVE (when someone can be declared winner and then a fresh player scenario started). EVE is about flying ships to WIN.
*** I suggest player groups be allowed hostile stockmarket takeovers of NPC Empire corporations. That should absorb a good deal of excess liquid capital from huge null sec groups and I think factional warfare would become much more spontaneous.****
CCP should expect that any group with 100s of trillion in excess ISK will be bored with ordinary game play. They have nothing worthwhile to do with all that cash. As i understand it most long term Goons have already paid their subscriptions ahead for years. Ship losses are meaningless. If they all decide to start a fight and log off so their enemies can claim an empty victory...they can just buy new fleets and suffer only the pain of fitting the new ships.
Very few original or current EVE players have a lot of interest in endless SIMS soap opera about who has collected the most clothes....which unfortunately seems to be where CCP thinks EVE should go. Not that a few cool uniforms might not be nice for celebrating victories. Maybe CCP needs to think of branching off a 3rd political-social game for EVE-DUST watchers that is mostly just attached to EVE (gambling on battle outcomes etc) -- instead of changing the purpose of EVE.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
349
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:33:00 -
[1466] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Xython wrote:I really don't envy the CCP team right now. On the one hand, the temptation to do something is outrageous I'm sure. On the other hand, technically speaking Aryth and the rest of the Economic specialists in Goonswarm did absolutely nothing wrong, they just happened to do this absolutely nothing wrong to an unhealthy extreme. Or, if you prefer, a "Goonish" extreme.
On the other hand, 5 Trillion ISK isn't that much -- that's what, 2, 3 months of Goonswarm's income? I had originally heard that it was 1 Quadrillion (1000 Trillion) ISK, which gave me the strangest feeling in my happy spot.
As an aside: It's kinda funny, but I'm pretty sure Goonswarm "employs" more Economics Majors than CCP does. ;)
Q: How many economics majors does it take to listen to a player who, with facts and figures laid out, points out that a proposed mechanism change could lead to extreme results A: At least one more than CCP employ, since we've been through this whole thing at least 4 times already that I know of, and almost certainly several times more. Seriously, the only thing different about this event is that it was specifically goons who benefitted. And, well... since everyone knows that goonies are naughty bad wrong, then it's obvious that they need to be punished.
We are also quite good at exposing game mechanics that may need looking into. It's what we are known for after all. CCP probably didn't understand the warnings of severity. This is just my opinion, but I believe maybe they intended some light gaming, but probably not to the degree that was possible. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
349
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:34:00 -
[1467] - Quote
Udonor wrote:I predict CCP will fail at addressing the real long term problem associated with this game flaw. I believe that up to now the GOONs have not wagged the whole economy on purpose.
We have. Ice interdiction, Burn Jita, and mineral manipulation were not accidents. They had a purpose.
|
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:35:00 -
[1468] - Quote
Fu@king WIN! Congrats guys absolutely stellar! Primary Test Subject |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:36:00 -
[1469] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Are there bugs that are not usage of game mechanics? It was working as designed. Not working as designed would be a bug, this wasn't a bug. Pr1ncess Alia wrote:I doubt it was a knee jerk reaction. It was a follow up to a public company statement about a security investigation, probably had several CCP staff review it, stamp it. Dignitaries of dignitaries and that sort of thing. It's all rather complicated.
They do that type of thing all the time for legit gameplay. Oh, you know how CCP works now?
We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:37:00 -
[1470] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created? |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1165
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:37:00 -
[1471] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion.
yo
when does your eve sub lapse??? a rogue goon |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:40:00 -
[1472] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know. Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics.
It actually can't be, because once upon a time people did make many billions of isk (injecting new isk into the economy, which this didn't do) off of insurance fraud; CCP has since changed the formula. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:41:00 -
[1473] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created?
What are you, Socrates now?
The answer to your question would be: with the enter key. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:42:00 -
[1474] - Quote
Udonor wrote:I predict CCP will fail at addressing the real long term problem associated with this game flaw. I believe that up to now the GOONs have not wagged the whole economy on purpose. But when a group's monthly operations budget has 10s of trillions ISK and many of its members 100s of billions ISK its normal trade manipulations and for a lark experiments can impact large areas of EVE. And those days of disinterest in EVE wide control may be over.
The problem is that CCP has failed to provide anything meaningful for very wealthy groups to spend their ISK upon -- something MEANINGFUL to an endgame for EVE (when someone can be declared winner and then a fresh player scenario started). EVE is about flying ships to WIN.
*** I suggest player groups be allowed hostile stockmarket takeovers of NPC Empire corporations. That should absorb a good deal of excess liquid capital from huge null sec groups and I think factional warfare would become much more spontaneous.****
CCP should expect that any group with 100s of trillion in excess ISK will be bored with ordinary game play. They have nothing worthwhile to do with all that cash. As i understand it most long term Goons have already paid their subscriptions ahead for years. Ship losses are meaningless. If they all decide to start a fight and log off so their enemies can claim an empty victory...they can just buy new fleets and suffer only the pain of fitting the new ships.
Very few original or current EVE players have a lot of interest in endless SIMS soap opera about who has collected the most clothes....which unfortunately seems to be where CCP thinks EVE should go. Not that a few cool uniforms might not be nice for celebrating victories. Maybe CCP needs to think of branching off a 3rd political-social game for EVE-DUST watchers that is mostly just attached to EVE (gambling on battle outcomes etc) -- instead of changing the purpose of EVE. EVE has no endgame, nor should it. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Strong Black Woman
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:42:00 -
[1475] - Quote
Keep them reimbursable Tengu Fleets flying!! |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:42:00 -
[1476] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created?
Ask Sreegs, hes the one who will be deleting the ISK that was not created.
Also, you can stop saying ISK wasnt created. Its a strawman arguement. Items were created. CCP cant delete the items (without backlash) because the buyers of the items were not all in on the abuse.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
154
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:42:00 -
[1477] - Quote
Delete created isk that wasn't created using exploits that arent actually exploits
Duh |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:43:00 -
[1478] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created? What are you, Socrates now? The answer to your question would be: with the enter key. No isk was created, no isk can thus be deleted.
In fact, isk has already been deleted, last I heard to the tune of 500b or thereabouts. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1571
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:43:00 -
[1479] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Aryth wrote:I suppose you could be referring to nullsec domination? Far beyond the scope of what I was talking about though. using our numbers to an advantage in a "massively multiplayer online game" is an exploit you heard it on eve-o first
This made me laugh. :D Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:44:00 -
[1480] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Delete created isk that wasn't created using exploits that arent actually exploits
Duh
Because it's not an exploit until CCP says it's an exploit and this isn't an exploit because CCP has not said it's an exploit.
Therefore CCP will not label it an exploit because it isn't one because they haven't labeled it as one. |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:44:00 -
[1481] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created?
As has been stated rather clearly already, anyone found to have knowingly profited from the use or abuse of an exploit or other game defect can and will have any ISK removed from their wallets. No use crying about it. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:46:00 -
[1482] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Delete created isk that wasn't created using exploits that arent actually exploits
Duh Because it's not an exploit until CCP says it's an exploit and this isn't an exploit because CCP has not said it's an exploit. Therefore CCP will not label it an exploit because it isn't one because they haven't labeled it as one.
The word you pick for it is arbitrary, in this case "abuse" instead of "exploit". Again, the end result is the same no matter how much you try to rationalize. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3721
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:46:00 -
[1483] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Delete created isk that wasn't created using exploits that arent actually exploits
Duh Because it's not an exploit until CCP says it's an exploit and this isn't an exploit because CCP has not said it's an exploit. Therefore CCP will not label it an exploit because it isn't one because they haven't labeled it as one. I see we've reached the end of our discussion, if you're unable to comprehend an exploit as something with more meaning than "a thing CCP has said is an exploit". Ahh well, worth a shot. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:46:00 -
[1484] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Delete created isk that wasn't created using exploits that arent actually exploits
Duh Because it's not an exploit until CCP says it's an exploit and this isn't an exploit because CCP has not said it's an exploit. Therefore CCP will not label it an exploit because it isn't one because they haven't labeled it as one. At this point, it actually pretty much is. It just wasn't a week ago.
Why are you having such a hard time with this concept? Things change, rules change, and everyone adapts.
Except highsec carebears. They just whine that goons need to banned. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:47:00 -
[1485] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created? Ask Sreegs, hes the one who will be deleting the ISK that was not created. Also, you can stop saying ISK wasnt created. Its a strawman arguement. Items were created. CCP cant delete the items (without backlash) because the buyers of the items were not all in on the abuse. So why should this be treated any differently from when people were insurance frauding like mad for isk, and actively adding isk to the economy? Why should this be treated any differently from when Pax Amarria was refinable into nocx? Why should this be treated any differently from when tracking titans were used to take over tech moons?
Or, were anyone banned for either of those activities? Got their ISK deleted? Any reactions at all? |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:48:00 -
[1486] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Delete created isk that wasn't created using exploits that arent actually exploits
Duh Because it's not an exploit until CCP says it's an exploit and this isn't an exploit because CCP has not said it's an exploit. Therefore CCP will not label it an exploit because it isn't one because they haven't labeled it as one. I see we've reached the end of our discussion, if you're unable to comprehend an exploit as something with more meaning than "a thing CCP has said is an exploit". Ahh well, worth a shot.
When mommy sends you to sit in the corner you are still being punished weather they call it "time out" or not. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:48:00 -
[1487] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created? As has been stated rather clearly already, anyone found to have knowingly profited from the use or abuse of an exploit or other game defect can and will have any ISK removed from their wallets. No use crying about it. But they have not actually GOTTEN any isk yet. Only items that will be sold for ~5 trillion over the next few months. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:48:00 -
[1488] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: No isk was created, no isk can thus be deleted.
Lord Zim wrote: In fact, isk has already been deleted, last I heard to the tune of 500b or thereabouts.
I'm sorry, could you be a little more unclear? As to your assertion that only "created" ISK can be deleted, this is a fallacy. Any ISK obtained outside the rules of the game, or due to faulty mechanics that are knowingly abused can and will be deleted. To think otherwise is pure folly.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:49:00 -
[1489] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:As has been stated rather clearly already, anyone found to have knowingly profited from the use or abuse of an exploit or other game defect can and will have any ISK removed from their wallets. No use crying about it. Insurance fraud? Pax Amarria refinery? Tracking titans? Neutral logis? Neutral freighter alts? |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:49:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Delete created isk that wasn't created using exploits that arent actually exploits
Duh Because it's not an exploit until CCP says it's an exploit and this isn't an exploit because CCP has not said it's an exploit. Therefore CCP will not label it an exploit because it isn't one because they haven't labeled it as one. The word you pick for it is arbitrary, in this case "abuse" instead of "exploit". Again, the end result is the same no matter how much you try to rationalize.
I was being facetious.
CCP will not punish them because it wasn't an exploit, it was unintended use of game mechanics which is completely different I'm told. (the difference between these are huge, from what the goons tell me)
What CCP will do is 'fix the glitch'. Which is def going to result in some negative goon wallets. This won't be a punishment however because nothing wrong was done.
But Goons are cool with that, because it's not about personal gain or exploiting, it's about pointing out game flaws and helping CCP. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3721
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:49:00 -
[1491] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: So why should this be treated any differently from when people were insurance frauding like mad for isk, and actively adding isk to the economy? Why should this be treated any differently from when Pax Amarria was refinable into nocx? Why should this be treated any differently from when tracking titans were used to take over tech moons?
Or, were anyone banned for either of those activities? Got their ISK deleted? Any reactions at all?
It is relatively pointless to try to argue with cipher jones: as you have seen he's not really capable of responding with a reasoned argument or even understanding one. He will simply repeat until hopefully those long words go away. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:50:00 -
[1492] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote: No isk was created, no isk can thus be deleted.
Lord Zim wrote: In fact, isk has already been deleted, last I heard to the tune of 500b or thereabouts.
I'm sorry, could you be a little more unclear? As to your assertion that only "created" ISK can be deleted, this is a fallacy. Any ISK obtained outside the rules of the game, or due to faulty mechanics that are knowingly abused can and will be deleted. To think otherwise is pure folly. Never heard of it happening due to faulty mechanics. Can you provide an example? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:52:00 -
[1493] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote: No isk was created, no isk can thus be deleted.
Lord Zim wrote: In fact, isk has already been deleted, last I heard to the tune of 500b or thereabouts.
I'm sorry, could you be a little more unclear? As to your assertion that only "created" ISK can be deleted, this is a fallacy. Any ISK obtained outside the rules of the game, or due to faulty mechanics that are knowingly abused can and will be deleted. To think otherwise is pure folly. You apparently didn't catch the 500b which were sunk to acquire the goods. That isk is no longer in the EVE economy.
And you apparently think this is different from insurance fraud, pax amarria refinery, etc etc etc. Oh, I know why, "goons" weren't the ones using those mechanics. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:52:00 -
[1494] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created? As has been stated rather clearly already, anyone found to have knowingly profited from the use or abuse of an exploit or other game defect can and will have any ISK removed from their wallets. No use crying about it. But they have not actually GOTTEN any isk yet. Only items that will be sold for ~5 trillion over the next few months.
The fact that they have not yet sold those items is irrelevant. They have obtained items, whose combined value far exceeds the value of the items that were destroyed in order to obtain these ones. Thus they have already profited, and in doing so have unbalanced a system that, without CCP's direct intervention, will remain heavily damaged. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
350
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:53:00 -
[1495] - Quote
CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
401
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:53:00 -
[1496] - Quote
WOW this thread still going on ? I thought arguments would be over by now and we are just waiting to see the after action report / blog from CCP.
EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:53:00 -
[1497] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:We know the end result, which is an ongoing investigation and ISK deletion. How can you delete that which hasn't been created? As has been stated rather clearly already, anyone found to have knowingly profited from the use or abuse of an exploit or other game defect can and will have any ISK removed from their wallets. No use crying about it. But they have not actually GOTTEN any isk yet. Only items that will be sold for ~5 trillion over the next few months. The fact that they have not yet sold those items is irrelevant. They have obtained items, whose combined value far exceeds the value of the items that were destroyed in order to obtain these ones. Thus they have already profited, and in doing so have unbalanced a system that, without CCP's direct intervention, will remain heavily damaged. Care to enumerate the damages, Mr. Carreon? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:54:00 -
[1498] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote: No isk was created, no isk can thus be deleted.
Lord Zim wrote: In fact, isk has already been deleted, last I heard to the tune of 500b or thereabouts.
I'm sorry, could you be a little more unclear? As to your assertion that only "created" ISK can be deleted, this is a fallacy. Any ISK obtained outside the rules of the game, or due to faulty mechanics that are knowingly abused can and will be deleted. To think otherwise is pure folly. Never heard of it happening due to faulty mechanics. Can you provide an example?
I have good news and bad news and more good news.
The good news is I have written a list of 64 examples of where this has happened.
The bad news is, discussing GM action is a bannable offense so I can't hook you up.
The more good news is, if you made mad LP store bank using this abuse/exploit/unintended but legitimate game mechanic you'll be able to soon serve as your own example! Talk about convenient. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1165
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:54:00 -
[1499] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought.
welp a rogue goon |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:54:00 -
[1500] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote: No isk was created, no isk can thus be deleted.
Lord Zim wrote: In fact, isk has already been deleted, last I heard to the tune of 500b or thereabouts.
I'm sorry, could you be a little more unclear? As to your assertion that only "created" ISK can be deleted, this is a fallacy. Any ISK obtained outside the rules of the game, or due to faulty mechanics that are knowingly abused can and will be deleted. To think otherwise is pure folly. You apparently didn't catch the 500b which were sunk to acquire the goods. That isk is no longer in the EVE economy. And you apparently think this is different from insurance fraud, pax amarria refinery, etc etc etc. Oh, I know why, "goons" weren't the ones using those mechanics.
Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:54:00 -
[1501] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:WOW this thread still going on ? I thought arguments would be over by now and we are just waiting to see the after action report / blog from CCP.
This is to much fun to stop. I actually should have gone to bed a couple hours ago, but I just can't stop laughing Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:55:00 -
[1502] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:The fact that they have not yet sold those items is irrelevant. They have obtained items, whose combined value far exceeds the value of the items that were destroyed in order to obtain these ones. Thus they have already profited, and in doing so have unbalanced a system that, without CCP's direct intervention, will remain heavily damaged. I guess everyone who profited from insurance fraud should have "their isk deleted" too, then. |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:55:00 -
[1503] - Quote
Further more,
players have every right to exploit game mechanics that are merely ill-conceived. That is what games are about. This latest situation did not give one player advantage over another in combat nor even exclusive economic advantage assuming a certain minimum corp size. However, as the GOONs have continually tried to point out -- the effect of such mistakes are often cumulative such that eventually only restarting the game makes any sense. The BEST and most satisfying way to do this is to allow some group to achieve game-wide victory and declare an official winner.
*********** Despite some occasional near catastrophic errors EVE is a game with great potential loyalty. The best and only FAIR way to grow EVE is to start a new shard every 3-5 years while allowing the old shards to wind down naturally to a winner. If CCP wants to grow EVE, they should NOT to make new users deal with a long cumulative economic heritage of CCP and player mistakes. *******************
The distribution of technium moons is a specific example of bad game balance decisions which CCP cannot correct in the existing game without being unfair to someone in a major way. Nor should CCP try and take back ISK the GOONs made off this latest game design faux paus. New shards are a way of starting clean.
New shards (single universes) can basically use common evolving code for ship fighting and station game mechanics. After separating out code dealing with the location of resources and any shard specific politics and victory conditions, there would be very little difference in coding necessary.
But CCP would have a lot of room for changes in "chessbooard"/"sandbox" setup. Maybe its not so easy to fly from one empire faction space to another - fewer routes. Maybe even Empire space is mostly a series of large high sec islands. Maybe there are some small null sec pockets within some Empire regions. Maybe mineral distribution is not so uniform thus making lo sec convoys between high sec islands vital. But in any case new shards would be clear of old cumulative effects and old shards would allow true winners to emerge.
(Heh - I can see special ships that might allow boring one way courses between shard universes {EVE Gate test pilot} -- thus allowing characters and their skills to cross but no wealth except a very limited types of small cargoes. All assuming CCP continuous their extend time skill tree rather than shortening paths in it somewhat.)
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:55:00 -
[1504] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: You apparently didn't catch the 500b which were sunk to acquire the goods. That isk is no longer in the EVE economy.
And you apparently think this is different from insurance fraud, pax amarria refinery, etc etc etc. Oh, I know why, "goons" weren't the ones using those mechanics.
I know, that's the most noble part of the Goons actions.
They flushed all those assets away knowing what they got in return would be taken by CCP. All so CCP can provide us a better game. Helluva group of guys. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:57:00 -
[1505] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought.
Well no one said you were supposed to pee in the sand. You just took that upon yourselves. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:58:00 -
[1506] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case. Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:58:00 -
[1507] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote: Care to enumerate the damages, Mr. Carreon?
Oh how thoroughly droll, I too am a fan of The Oatmeal. I have said my piece, the actions I mentioned have precedence in the game and CCP are rather outspoken when it comes to systemic abuse of game mechanics.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:00:00 -
[1508] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Lord Zim wrote: So why should this be treated any differently from when people were insurance frauding like mad for isk, and actively adding isk to the economy? Why should this be treated any differently from when Pax Amarria was refinable into nocx? Why should this be treated any differently from when tracking titans were used to take over tech moons?
Or, were anyone banned for either of those activities? Got their ISK deleted? Any reactions at all?
It is relatively pointless to try to argue with cipher jones: as you have seen he's not really capable of responding with a reasoned argument or even understanding one. He will simply repeat until hopefully those long words go away.
Quote:By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
It was an "argument" prior to that post, whining afterwards.
As far as handing out punishments, I have no ******* idea why you are asking me why CCP treated prior exploits with a lackadaisical attitude. I would assume it has something to do with the fact that they almost went bankrupt due to loosing subs and their investors told them to fix their game or they wouldn't extend the loan. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:00:00 -
[1509] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case. Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air.
Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:02:00 -
[1510] - Quote
Udonor wrote:Further more,
players have every right to exploit game mechanics that are merely ill-conceived. That is what games are about. This latest situation did not give one player advantage over another in combat nor even exclusive economic advantage assuming a certain minimum corp size. However, as the GOONs have continually tried to point out -- the effect of such mistakes are often cumulative such that eventually only restarting the game makes any sense. The BEST and most satisfying way to do this is to allow some group to achieve game-wide victory and declare an official winner.
*********** Despite some occasional near catastrophic errors EVE is a game with great potential loyalty. The best and only FAIR way to grow EVE is to start a new shard every 3-5 years while allowing the old shards to wind down naturally to a winner. If CCP wants to grow EVE, they should NOT to make new users deal with a long cumulative economic heritage of CCP and player mistakes. *******************
The distribution of technium moons is a specific example of bad game balance decisions which CCP cannot correct in the existing game without being unfair to someone in a major way. Nor should CCP try and take back ISK the GOONs made off this latest game design faux paus. New shards are a way of starting clean.
New shards (single universes) can basically use common evolving code for ship fighting and station game mechanics. After separating out code dealing with the location of resources and any shard specific politics and victory conditions, there would be very little difference in coding necessary.
But CCP would have a lot of room for changes in "chessbooard"/"sandbox" setup. Maybe its not so easy to fly from one empire faction space to another - fewer routes. Maybe even Empire space is mostly a series of large high sec islands. Maybe there are some small null sec pockets within some Empire regions. Maybe mineral distribution is not so uniform thus making lo sec convoys between high sec islands vital. But in any case new shards would be clear of old cumulative effects and old shards would allow true winners to emerge.
(Heh - I can see special ships that might allow boring one way courses between shard universes {EVE Gate test pilot} -- thus allowing characters and their skills to cross but no wealth except a very limited types of small cargoes. All assuming CCP continuous their extend time skill tree rather than shortening paths in it somewhat.)
EVE isn't fair. Nor should it be. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:02:00 -
[1511] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case. Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air. Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble both both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events.
I know for a fact that no one got in trouble for pax amarria, because I myself bought 40 billion isk worth and never heard a peep. And no, the supply was not "limited", you could literally buy as much as you wanted.
No one got in trouble for insurance fraud, either. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:02:00 -
[1512] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought.
Now, that's newsworthy! |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:03:00 -
[1513] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case. Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air. Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events. You can buy Pax Amarria from NPC sell orders.
And can you show us where anyone got actioned for any of those things? A simple archived forum thread is all you need to provide. eve-search will help. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:03:00 -
[1514] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know. Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics. It already has been, and that caused the insurance nerf. New to EVE are we?
No, but you are not too bright are you?
It is actually the nerf that introduced the market manipulation! Before it was just to high a payout set by CCP, now it is base don market statistics. The higher the market prices the more payout!
Go ti? |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:03:00 -
[1515] - Quote
corestwo wrote: I know for a fact that no one got in trouble for pax amarria, because I myself bought 40 billion isk worth and never heard a peep. And no, the supply was not "limited", you could literally buy as much as you wanted.
No one got in trouble for insurance fraud, either.
~Talks about how legit it was because he got away with it.~
*frog*
~Logs in to negative wallet.~ |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
351
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:03:00 -
[1516] - Quote
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:06:00 -
[1517] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
Including many thousands of datacores that Aryth bought before all of this, of course, off the market. Good luck getting CCP to own up to that mistaken, of course. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:06:00 -
[1518] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right?
If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem.
The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:06:00 -
[1519] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both. Pretty certain nobody were, as it would've affected "a lot of people".
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. Just like the FW LP won't be possible because the flawed mechanic will get fixed.
Cutter Isaacson wrote:As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events. Heh no. I know of tons of people who bought up a fair bit of billions of isk which they invested in PA. Nobody I've asked have taken flak for th at, and nobody I've talked to have taken flak for insurance frauding either. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
468
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:07:00 -
[1520] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right? If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem. The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee.
Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this. |
|
Wibla
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:07:00 -
[1521] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia: they spent several hundred billions of isk they had beforehand to buy stuff from the LP store, but I very much doubt that CCP will return that to them.
:CCP: |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
829
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:08:00 -
[1522] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know. Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics. It already has been, and that caused the insurance nerf. New to EVE are we? No, but you are not too bright are you? It is actually the nerf that introduced the market manipulation! Before it was just to high a payout set by CCP, now it is based on market statistics that van be manipulated. The higher the market prices the more payout! Go ti? Doesn't work that way tho.
Go try it, you will find you can't.
Insurance is set based on the market value of the minerals that go into the hull, not the hull itself, and the formula was changed so that it would always cost more to build one than you can get from insurance. That was the result of the insurance fraud that created billions of isk out of thin air a few years back.
Might want to do some homework before talking out your ass. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
530
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:08:00 -
[1523] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case. Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air. Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events. You can buy Pax Amarria from NPC sell orders. And can you show us where anyone got actioned for any of those things? A simple archived forum thread is all you need to provide. eve-search will help.
My apologies on the Pax Amarria issue, I incorrectly inferred that this was an issue with the newly released Pax. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
191
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:08:00 -
[1524] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right? If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem. The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee. Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this.
Mess with the bull you get the horns. |
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:08:00 -
[1525] - Quote
So this week we learned **** CCP, they can do their own damn QA. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
930
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:09:00 -
[1526] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right? If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem. The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee. Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this.
"Because Goons."
|
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:10:00 -
[1527] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think?
And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned!
Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go!
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:10:00 -
[1528] - Quote
darmwand wrote:It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?
Well, to be honest they are ALWAYS on the front line to p1ss all over missions, incursions (hi sec anything) and what's not.
So don't be surprised if they don't get compact consensus. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:11:00 -
[1529] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go!
Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:11:00 -
[1530] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook.
If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
530
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:11:00 -
[1531] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: Just like the FW LP won't be possible because the flawed mechanic will get fixed.
I think we both know that comparing the money made from insurance fraud, by countless players over many years, had much less of a dramatic impact than one small (comparatively) group of people acquiring over 900 trillion ISK's worth of items. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1165
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:11:00 -
[1532] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Mess with the bull you get the horns.
oh please do gloat, it's funny when people who will never achieve so much as mediocrity in comparison gloat to their betters ;p a rogue goon |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
191
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:12:00 -
[1533] - Quote
Wibla wrote:Pr1ncess Alia: they spent several hundred billions of isk they had beforehand to buy stuff from the LP store, but I very much doubt that CCP will return that to them.
:CCP:
I doubt they will either.
They want to both be epic awesome smart exploiters and the noble great alliance that helps find gamebreaking bugs and point them out.
They can't have both all the way. It's one thing to point out the problem, it's another to sink tons of assets into making crap tons of assets using the problem and then expect it will just be all good.
They took this upon themselves. They knew what they were doing. Now they want to cry foul.
Where is the smug confidence and flawless intelligence flaunted in the OP?
Scams make you famous and rich. Exploits make you famous and broke. They KNEW this going into it and they did it to themselves. I said as much in my first post on page 5 or 6. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1165
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:12:00 -
[1534] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:[quote=Aryth]Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned!
they did not ban everyone in the corps involved
where did you pull that from? a rogue goon |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:13:00 -
[1535] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:acquiring over 900 trillion ISK's worth of items. Uh. That number seems, uh, a bit overinflated. |
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:13:00 -
[1536] - Quote
At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
352
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:13:00 -
[1537] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.
This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
530
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:13:00 -
[1538] - Quote
There is one word that sums this up.
Hubris. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3721
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:14:00 -
[1539] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote: Just like the FW LP won't be possible because the flawed mechanic will get fixed.
I think we both know that comparing the money made from insurance fraud, by countless players over many years, had much less of a dramatic impact than one small (comparatively) group of people acquiring over 900 trillion ISK's worth of items. where did you get 900 trillion |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
191
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:14:00 -
[1540] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Mess with the bull you get the horns. oh please do gloat, it's funny when people who will never achieve so much as mediocrity in comparison gloat to their betters ;p
I have a wife and daughter. Mediocrity to some, but quite an achievement in my book. Good job, don't have to work too hard (get to talk on the interwebs)
As for breaking the EULA and becoming epic awesome internet spaceship nerds who both dont care about the game and care about it more than anything... yeah I'm not too good at that stuff. I'll just keep being mediocre and pew pewing in my rifter.
It's hard to get myself to sleep at night, facing the failure that is my internet personality, but that's what ambien is for. |
|
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:15:00 -
[1541] - Quote
The Goon ownership of, and profit from, Tech is a well known abuse of game mechanics. I, for one, can not wait until the alliance is dissolved for clear violations of the 'don't be good at Eve' rule CCP is enforcing. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
930
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:15:00 -
[1542] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go!
Except we didn't exploit anything to do this. We used in game mechanics to their logical conclusion. It is not Aryth's fault that CCP did not QC or test their own patch, nor did they listen to the CSM when they were warned that this change was unwise.
But yes, CCP has set the bar quite effectively: If you find a market loophole, don't tell them. Instead, tell all your friends, and abuse it over the course of 6-12 months instead of 4 weeks. |
Lord Zim
906
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:15:00 -
[1543] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! They banned the people who exploited the bug, they didn't touch the rest of the people in that alliance.
I don't remember all the details, but it was something about a special way of setting up a reaction tower which meant you didn't have to refill the inputs, which meant ferrogel was just spawned out of thin air. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
530
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:15:00 -
[1544] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote: Just like the FW LP won't be possible because the flawed mechanic will get fixed.
I think we both know that comparing the money made from insurance fraud, by countless players over many years, had much less of a dramatic impact than one small (comparatively) group of people acquiring over 900 trillion ISK's worth of items. where did you get 900 trillion
Just ignore me for the next half hour, I've not eaten and I keep trying to post on here instead of eating :/ Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
193
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:15:00 -
[1545] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead.
Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit.
But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring! |
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:16:00 -
[1546] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:The Goon ownership of, and profit from, Tech is a well known abuse of game mechanics. I, for one, can not wait until the alliance is dissolved for clear violations of the 'don't be good at Eve' rule CCP is enforcing.
At least we can move back to Poitot when that happens. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1136
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:16:00 -
[1547] - Quote
In chaos theory, there's a concept known as sensitive dependence upon initial conditions. Most people know it as the Butterfly Effect.
In EVE, we call it the sandbox.
HAHAHAHA just kidding not actually a sandbox |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
931
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:16:00 -
[1548] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.
Not empty quoting. I don't envy CCP, but using this as an excuse to punish Goons economically is just wrong. |
Lord Ryan
Quantum Cats Syndicate
533
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:17:00 -
[1549] - Quote
Not really sure what happened. But it sounds like CCP robbed the goons. Who would have thought CCP would do something unethical! But than again it's not the first time they punished someone for breaking a rule retoactively. Imagine that in real life. You put on a yellow shirt and leave your house. Some corrupt offical see's you and decides yellow shirts should be illegal, goes home and rights up a new law. Next morning the SS kicks down your and arrest you for breaking the law. Good times! -á"Nerf it cause I can't fly it". I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
193
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:18:00 -
[1550] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.
well see, no
They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you.
You came forward, with much hubris, confidence, swagger, gloat and smug. They are fixing the problem as best they can.
Next time? Sure, keep it to yourself. But when they do figure it out, that will be your ban ticket.
Is doing the right thing for the game and community a concept you are incapable of understanding? |
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1136
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:18:00 -
[1551] - Quote
In EVE, the choices you make shape the outcome of events. You could've been a white hat, helped CCP uncover market manipulation that could ruin the game, or you could cackle quietly and run roughshod over the economy.
What matters most is that the experience was emergent, unscripted, because - in the sandbox - all player actions, no matter how subtle or bold, always have an impact.
Imagine what you could become a part of.
hahaha just kidding not a sandbox |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1136
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:19:00 -
[1552] - Quote
Welcome to EVE Online. The universe is Sreegs'. |
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:19:00 -
[1553] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead. Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit. But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring!
You're ******** if you think these people aren't skilled and dedicated enough to recover.
Next time something exploitable comes around it's going to take CCP way more effort to fix then getting a nice detailed report on how to do it sent to them, with 5 people to ruin. It's going to be exploited by as many people as it can be, for as long as it can be, and no one in their right mind would help CCP. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1136
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:19:00 -
[1554] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08hmqyejCYU i quite like ccp's advertising |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:19:00 -
[1555] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. well see, no They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you. You came forward, with much hubris, confidence, swagger, gloat and smug. They are fixing the problem as best they can. Next time? Sure, keep it to yourself. But when they do figure it out, that will be your ban ticket. Is doing the right thing for the game and community a concept you are incapable of understanding?
How is taking assets purchased legitimately from the market weeks prior to any of this happening acceptable? Because that literally just happened. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:22:00 -
[1556] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead. Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit. But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring! Actually, they hurt every player who would have enjoyed cheap implants and faction ships.
But hey, ******* over your players is a perfectly good way to make them less likely to push the game to it's limits, and will probably save you some money in QA and testing over time. Of course, people dont give a **** about the game anymore, but who cares? |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
531
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:22:00 -
[1557] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead. Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit. But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring! You're ******** if you think these people aren't skilled and dedicated enough to recover. Next time something exploitable comes around it's going to take CCP way more effort to fix then getting a nice detailed report on how to do it sent to them, with 5 people to ruin. It's going to be exploited by as many people as it can be, for as long as it can be, and no one in their right mind would help CCP.
I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads?
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Lord Ryan
Quantum Cats Syndicate
533
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:24:00 -
[1558] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. well see, no They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you. You came forward, with much hubris, confidence, swagger, gloat and smug. They are fixing the problem as best they can. Next time? Sure, keep it to yourself. But when they do figure it out, that will be your ban ticket. Is doing the right thing for the game and community a concept you are incapable of understanding? How is taking assets purchased legitimately from the market weeks prior to any of this happening acceptable? Because that literally just happened.
Did you buy the the assets with RL ISK? If not it's all legit. Who cares if you made billions or trillions off asshatery. CCP has no business robbing you! -á"Nerf it cause I can't fly it". I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
831
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:24:00 -
[1559] - Quote
Welp, its official. Darius JOHNSON was right at the alliance panel he did. A goon ruined the game.
Just not the goon everyone has been expecting lately. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
193
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:24:00 -
[1560] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead. Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit. But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring! Actually, they hurt every player who would have enjoyed cheap implants and faction ships. But hey, ******* over your players is a perfectly good way to make them less likely to push the game to it's limits, and will probably save you some money in QA and testing over time. Of course, people dont give a **** about the game anymore, but who cares?
Think I'll put some implants up on the market now that this was all fixed.
You know, to sell to all the people that dont give a crap about the game anymore. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1165
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:25:00 -
[1561] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads?
there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed
there are other things involved here a rogue goon |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:26:00 -
[1562] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote: Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.
Provide proof. Those instances are proof that very similar situations in the past were dealt with by changing the mechanic in question, with no repercussions to the people using them to profit. Precedent is set with them. Where is your proof that those cases are wrong?
Actually CCP does take assets for true exploits of a CODING mistake. Like several years ago certain manufacturing processes weren't consuming inputs and you got outputs for free. Heh people got banned for that.
This case is only an exploit in the ethical/philosophical sense. The code did EXACTLY what CCP desired. This was a case where CCP game designers failed to fully consider the consequences of the rules they set forth. Its no different from ship fitting rules that CCP eventually had to nerf in the past. Maybe a little more dramatic than most fitting mistakes (modules, stacking etc) that give someone too much advantage.
I suspect CCP will handle this just like combats involving modules they have had to nerf in in the past. Since no coding issues were involved -- What is done is done. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:26:00 -
[1563] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. well see, no They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you.
WE did not create any problems. CCP did.
WE told CCP about it in part by showing just how much it could be abused by the more autistic people in our community so they would realize how badly THEY screwed up. In response, they are punishing us for our good deed.
Read this thread again. Other people knew about this and were doing it, just not to our extent. This would have been abused for months until CCP noticed, if they ever did, without Aryth and the Goon econ team's intervention.
No one in Goonswarm expected this to not be rolled back. Not realistically. We did it for two reasons: To show just had badly CCP messed up (directly to them), and, after having warned CCP ourselves, to give the tinfoil hat wearing ladies and gentlemen on these forums something to spurge about. However, using this as an excuse to punish those who revealed this poorly designed game mechanic is absolutely, unequivocally, wrong.
CCP owes Aryth an apology for overcorrecting and deleting funds not related to this -- I certainly hope they decide to do so shortly. In addition, they need to look through at accounts such as Jade Constantine to make sure all people who did this "exploit" have their funds rolled back. |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:27:00 -
[1564] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Inspiration wrote:[quote=Aryth]Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! they did not ban everyone in the corps involved where did you pull that from?
No in fact I believe this "mechanic" was abused for YEARS before a few players got quietly banned. In the meantime trillions of ISK worth of Ferrogel paid for "Elite PVP".
That is how you do it. Do it on alt accounts, do it and cash out VERY QUIETLY and never look back. Then buy everyone in your alliance a Titan and C-Walk through the south. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
831
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:28:00 -
[1565] - Quote
Udonor wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote: Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.
Provide proof. Those instances are proof that very similar situations in the past were dealt with by changing the mechanic in question, with no repercussions to the people using them to profit. Precedent is set with them. Where is your proof that those cases are wrong? Actually CCP does take assets for true exploits of a CODING mistake. Like several years ago certain manufacturing processes weren't consuming inputs and you got outputs for free. Heh people got banned for that. This case is only an exploit in the ethical/philosophical sense. The code did EXACTLY what CCP desired. This was a case where CCP game designers failed to fully consider the consequences of the rules they set forth. Its no different from ship fitting rules that CCP eventually had to nerf in the past. Maybe a little more dramatic than most fitting mistakes (modules, stacking etc) that give someone too much advantage. I suspect CCP will handle this just like combats involving modules they have had to nerf in in the past. Since no coding issues were involved -- What is done is done. They apparently handled it by taking everything from the people who were behind it. Including things they didn't even get as part of this. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
532
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:29:00 -
[1566] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads? there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed there are other things involved here
How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
354
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:29:00 -
[1567] - Quote
It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3723
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:30:00 -
[1568] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote: How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?
pos bowling was always obviously broken but nobody ever got banned
anywho i expect the gms are operating on a philosophy of seize first, investigate later to minimize the potential for the trail to be cold, we shall see where things shake out |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:30:00 -
[1569] - Quote
Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. well see, no They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you. WE did not create any problems. CCP did.WE told CCP about it in part by showing just how much it could be abused by the more autistic people in our community so they would realize how badly THEY screwed up. In response, they are punishing us for our good deed.Read this thread again. Other people knew about this and were doing it, just not to our extent. This would have been abused for months until CCP noticed, if they ever did, without Aryth and the Goon econ team's intervention. No one in Goonswarm expected this to not be rolled back. Not realistically. We did it for two reasons: To show just had badly CCP messed up (directly to them), and, after having warned CCP ourselves, to give the tinfoil hat wearing ladies and gentlemen on these forums something to spurge about. However, using this as an excuse to punish those who revealed this poorly designed game mechanic is absolutely, unequivocally, wrong.CCP owes Aryth an apology for overcorrecting and deleting funds not related to this -- I certainly hope they decide to do so shortly. In addition, they need to look through at accounts such as Jade Constantine to make sure all people who did this "exploit" have their funds rolled back.
They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.
They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:30:00 -
[1570] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads? there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed there are other things involved here How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?
I think what he is saying is that CCP is going far beyond the scope of the manipulation and is removing things that were owned beforehand. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
831
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:31:00 -
[1571] - Quote
Ugh.
Time to go play some World of Warplanes, me thinks. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:31:00 -
[1572] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.
They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.
But they're taking more than that. >_> Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1138
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:31:00 -
[1573] - Quote
Aryth wrote:This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:31:00 -
[1574] - Quote
Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin.
They usually lock down everything until they can figure out exactly what is what and complete the investigation.
But you know all about eve, the ins, the outs. So you knew they would do this. |
Nikodiemus
Jokulhlaup
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:31:00 -
[1575] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought.
Good. This is what happens when you manipulate the system in a way it was not designed, screw people over with mechanics, and **** in the sandbox. |
Lord Ryan
Quantum Cats Syndicate
533
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:31:00 -
[1576] - Quote
Udonor wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote: Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.
Provide proof. Those instances are proof that very similar situations in the past were dealt with by changing the mechanic in question, with no repercussions to the people using them to profit. Precedent is set with them. Where is your proof that those cases are wrong? Actually CCP does take assets for true exploits of a CODING mistake. Like several years ago certain manufacturing processes weren't consuming inputs and you got outputs for free. Heh people got banned for that. This case is only an exploit in the ethical/philosophical sense. The code did EXACTLY what CCP desired. This was a case where CCP game designers failed to fully consider the consequences of the rules they set forth. Its no different from ship fitting rules that CCP eventually had to nerf in the past. Maybe a little more dramatic than most fitting mistakes (modules, stacking etc) that give someone too much advantage. I suspect CCP will handle this just like combats involving modules they have had to nerf in in the past. Since no coding issues were involved -- What is done is done.
That was wrong too. Those people shouldn't have been banned either. Things have gotten so bad at CCP that I actually feel the need to defend the goons. This is a sad day!
Disclaimer. Assuming any of what has been reported is true! -á"Nerf it cause I can't fly it". I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
467
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1577] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Ugh.
Time to go play some World of Warplanes, me thinks.
Giant Internet Robots Online. Oh wait, most of you can't. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1578] - Quote
Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no.
And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1579] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote: How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?
pos bowling was always obviously broken but nobody ever got banned anywho i expect the gms are operating on a philosophy of seize first, investigate later to minimize the potential for the trail to be cold, we shall see where things shake out
Lets hope so. I'd hate for the concept that CCP no longer values their own sandbox to go viral. Bad PR is no fun. |
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1580] - Quote
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9NhYs3_Oh7M/TiMEwkMk28I/AAAAAAAAAE4/0jUNNPkpBjA/s1600/sandcastle.jpg |
|
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1581] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.
I know you are trolling, but CCP is taking items completely unrelated to the latest activities.
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
831
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1582] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.
They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.
Wrong. They have taken MORE than they got from using the problem mechanic. Alot more. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1583] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.
They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.
But they're taking more than that. >_>
read my last. this is how their process works when addressing stuff of this scale |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1584] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.
They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.
If that's what they were doing, we wouldn't be up in arms. They are not just doing that. They are removing assets that the Goon Economics team had prior to this situation that had nothing to do with our demonstration of the poorly designed FW change.
Please understand -- if this was just rolling back the 5 trillion, we'd be fine. It's beyond that. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1166
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[1585] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads? there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed there are other things involved here How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?
we can, for example, use our massive amount of tech ISK (tech being a broken mechanic) to do exactly what you said a rogue goon |
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:33:00 -
[1586] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.
Glad to know you're a GM, or Moderator, or are you a Dev? I musta missed your tag. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:33:00 -
[1587] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.
They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.
Wrong. They have taken MORE than they got from using the problem mechanic. Alot more.
Well call the UN and hire a lawyer. What do you want? |
Domer Pyle
Northwest Industries International Technical Exploration Conglomerate of Hemera
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:33:00 -
[1588] - Quote
this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.
but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me. |
Alain Kinsella
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:34:00 -
[1589] - Quote
Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin.
Those of us who watched it happen to SL called it Disneyfication. Kinda apt, eh?
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
532
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:34:00 -
[1590] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote: How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?
pos bowling was always obviously broken but nobody ever got banned anywho i expect the gms are operating on a philosophy of seize first, investigate later to minimize the potential for the trail to be cold, we shall see where things shake out
That does seem like the quickest and most efficient way to deal with this situation. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
|
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:34:00 -
[1591] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Welcome to EVE Online. The universe is Sreegs'.
way to toss Sreegs under the bus boy. good luck kids enjoy your break from eve |
Nikodiemus
Jokulhlaup
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:34:00 -
[1592] - Quote
Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin.
Of course you would say they are taking things that were obtained honestly. Not that you have to show any evidence right? I mean really, we took your word for it when you posted about the theft right? Oh wai.... |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:34:00 -
[1593] - Quote
Goon tears are the best tears.
Or
EvE isn't supposed to be fair.
Or
HTFU
Oh, you guys got plenty of short quips that you use on the rest of the community when they "whine". Use some of them to cheer yourselves up. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
831
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:34:00 -
[1594] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:Disclaimer. Assuming any of what has been reported is true! If its not, they are trolling each other as well, because its being reported in internal comms. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Vincent Athen
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:35:00 -
[1595] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. Except that he's not doing that. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
532
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:35:00 -
[1596] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads? there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed there are other things involved here How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK? we can, for example, use our massive amount of tech ISK (tech being a broken mechanic) to do exactly what you said
Again, this does not make it right, which was my point in the first place. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
354
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:35:00 -
[1597] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.
By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
196
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:36:00 -
[1598] - Quote
Domer Pyle wrote:this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.
but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me.
they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference.
and yeah, the goon crying/feet stomping threadnaught that is inbound is only made more delicious when held in contrast to the smug "once again we won eve" OP |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:37:00 -
[1599] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right? If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem. The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee. Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this.
CCP Sreegs posted (possible multiple times) that he'd make sure who trespassed (i.e. caught botting etc) would be beaten hard. This is possibly the "beaten hard" example. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
356
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:38:00 -
[1600] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Domer Pyle wrote:this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.
but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me. they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. and yeah, the goon crying/feet stomping threadnaught that is inbound is only made more delicious when held in contrast to the smug "once again we won eve" OP
On the contrary. The very fixes CCP did, were the ones we suggested. We also suggested a long term fix that took days of internal debate to figure out the best fix for. We went way out of our way to explain the issue in detail, the possible fixes, and even later on when they exposed themselves to it happening again. |
|
Domer Pyle
Northwest Industries International Technical Exploration Conglomerate of Hemera
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:39:00 -
[1601] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Domer Pyle wrote:this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.
but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me. they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. and yeah, the goon crying/feet stomping threadnaught that is inbound is only made more delicious when held in contrast to the smug "once again we won eve" OP
well...*technically* they did, if ccp was unaware of the situation, by pointing it out.did they still exploit it, however? yeah. obviously. |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:39:00 -
[1602] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Oh damn, now you in trouble. |
blackpatch
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:39:00 -
[1603] - Quote
who cares about the sandbox we'll be walking in stations any year now |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
196
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:40:00 -
[1604] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.
give it a rest.
No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back.
if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move.
That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1139
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:41:00 -
[1605] - Quote
blackpatch wrote:who cares about the sandbox we'll be walking in stations any year now
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
196
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:41:00 -
[1606] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Domer Pyle wrote:this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.
but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me. they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. and yeah, the goon crying/feet stomping threadnaught that is inbound is only made more delicious when held in contrast to the smug "once again we won eve" OP On the contrary. The very fixes CCP did, were the ones we suggested. We also suggested a long term fix that took days of internal debate to figure out the best fix for. We went way out of our way to explain the issue in detail, the possible fixes, and even later on when they exposed themselves to it happening again.
So then whats the problem? You'll get back the stuff they took that was unrelated to the problem.
Probably. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:41:00 -
[1607] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference.
So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers?
You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia.
|
Vincent Athen
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:41:00 -
[1608] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right? If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem. The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee. Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this. CCP Sreegs posted (possible multiple times) that he'd make sure who trespassed (i.e. caught botting etc) would be beaten hard. This is possibly the "beaten hard" example. Ah, yes, the "manipulate the markets to take advantage of FW" bot. I hear that's a really popular one among ice miners these days. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
356
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:42:00 -
[1609] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. give it a rest. No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back. if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move. That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away.
They seized assets that existed before the patch. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:44:00 -
[1610] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.
Well I reported mine to CCP. They won't take my stuff though, since I limited myself to just sending a ticket.
But hey, I'll never make to the news, like the growing forest does not make to the news like the tree that cracks and falls. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:44:00 -
[1611] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go! Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right.
I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities.
SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed!
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:44:00 -
[1612] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. give it a rest. No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back. if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move. That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away. They seized assets that existed before the patch.
And we very much doubt CCP will simply give them back, because, you know, CCP.
|
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
43
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:45:00 -
[1613] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Domer Pyle wrote:this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.
but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me. they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. and yeah, the goon crying/feet stomping threadnaught that is inbound is only made more delicious when held in contrast to the smug "once again we won eve" OP On the contrary. The very fixes CCP did, were the ones we suggested. We also suggested a long term fix that took days of internal debate to figure out the best fix for. We went way out of our way to explain the issue in detail, the possible fixes, and even later on when they exposed themselves to it happening again. So then whats the problem? You'll get back the stuff they took that was unrelated to the problem. Probably.
Still bitter about the RIT triangle? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:45:00 -
[1614] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:In chaos theory, there's a concept known as sensitive dependence upon initial conditions. Most people know it as the Butterfly Effect.
In EVE, we call it the sandbox.
HAHAHAHA just kidding not actually a sandbox
Grats, you found out it's a money box. CCP's money box. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
196
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:45:00 -
[1615] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. give it a rest. No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back. if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move. That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away. They seized assets that existed before the patch.
yeah, but you did this to yourselves. you know how hamfisted their investigations are. expecting more here is as much a failure on your part as it is on theirs.
save the crying for when they don't give stuff back they should have. until then, they probably will return unrelated stuff |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:46:00 -
[1616] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go! Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right. I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities. SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed!
"excess LP" = something from nothing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "excess", right? |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:46:00 -
[1617] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
On the contrary. The very fixes CCP did, were the ones we suggested. We also suggested a long term fix that took days of internal debate to figure out the best fix for. We went way out of our way to explain the issue in detail, the possible fixes, and even later on when they exposed themselves to it happening again.
Great! Next time do all that and leave out the "oh, and yeah, I pilfered 5trillion isk worth of junk and screwed up faction wars for a few weeks, I hope that's cool."
Or don't. Nobody asked you to QA. Just like the Goon policy of not reporting Goon bots because "well, it's not our job to police botters, that's CCP's job - Mittens", don't take it upon yourselves to QA new code.
You may find this hard to believe, but CCP doesn't live and die based on what you guys do in this game. I'm sure it can manage just fine without you. Get over yourselves ffs.
|
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:47:00 -
[1618] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. I think the message is really, file a bug report and don't exploit the bug/design flaw. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4132
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:50:00 -
[1619] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
I believe a certain Mr K. U. Gutsumen could have told you that. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:51:00 -
[1620] - Quote
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair
The situation presented looks like an exploit. I know that some people have a hard time understanding this because they have bought into the propaganda of those who would love to do a bit of exploiting. I am sorry if you have deluded yourself into thinking that a bit of quick logic will protect you when something looks like an exploit. I hope that any actions by CCP will be interpreted by future players as be careful around things that look like an exploit.
If assets are being taken, and if those assets were not involved in the exploit then I am sorry. Unfortunately I don't think CCP has the time to do a full forensic analysis of the situation. Perhaps CCP will return some of the losses in time, or perhaps they will just count it as the wages of being involved in an active exploit. |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4132
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:51:00 -
[1621] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. I think the message is really, file a bug report.
This has worked really well in the past, I hear.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
532
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:52:00 -
[1622] - Quote
Xython wrote:
"excess LP" = something from nothing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "excess", right?
Excess has never, nor will it ever, mean something from nothing. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:53:00 -
[1623] - Quote
Alright, that was a nice test. Now all we have to do is never go public with those 3 worse money making gimmicks. |
Nikodiemus
Jokulhlaup
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:53:00 -
[1624] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. give it a rest. No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back. if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move. That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away. They seized assets that existed before the patch.
This is how you learn. |
Lili Lu
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:54:00 -
[1625] - Quote
Howy Cwap this thread is at 80+ pages! I stopped reading yesterday about where Weaslior realized that Jade in fact did know about this before the "official" publication of it.
What's the latest? In a short synopsis please. |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:54:00 -
[1626] - Quote
Aryth wrote: They seized assets that existed before the patch.
The irony of all this is that in order for them to roll back this stuff they are going to need some pretty awesome auditor-accountancy types. Perhaps Sony can send some in for a week.
Reminds me of the saying "An ounce of dealing with a game mechanic problem when you are told about it is worth a pound of figuring it out after someone abuses it." |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
532
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:54:00 -
[1627] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. I think the message is really, file a bug report. This has worked really well in the past, I hear.
That is no justification Malcanis. If you know its broken and abusable, report it and carry on as before, maybe spread the word that it is broken (though maybe not HOW it is broken) so that others can also file reports. But never, ever abuse it, or you will end up like a certain group of individuals that just came to light. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
333
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:55:00 -
[1628] - Quote
Finally! CCP is creating content. Instead of them being... you know, player created.
Also: The logs! They show nothing! The assets are a lie. You never had them to begin with. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1139
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:56:00 -
[1629] - Quote
one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
|
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
378
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:56:00 -
[1630] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I believe a certain Mr K. U. Gutsumen could have told you that. Kugutsumen is no longer censored, I believe.
Also, the level of butthurt gloating has reached maximum density. Nothing Found |
|
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
378
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:57:00 -
[1631] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon. That stetson looked better in brown anyway. Nothing Found |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:57:00 -
[1632] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. I think the message is really, file a bug report and don't exploit the bug/design flaw.
Let me tell you what happens when you file a bug report: nothing. Some people abuse the system for a year, and then they deal with it after "too many" people find out about it.
If only a few people know about it and exploit it it is no problem. Once the general population is aware of it, then it becomes a problem and then the exploiters have to find the next bug. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
357
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:57:00 -
[1633] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: save the crying for when they don't give stuff back they should have. until then, they probably will return unrelated stuff
Given CCP's past trackrecord of false positives for RMT, and now taking assets that had nothing to do with FW because they were the same asset type, well, I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to do anything of the sort.
The greater issue is. This means combining mechanics in EVE to an unforseen outcome is an exploit. Forget the ISK for a second. This means EVE is not the EVE we thought it was. Read the thread, many people feel this is well within the mechanics. I would say most have voiced their support. If it's such a grey area, that the majority of people believe it to be legit, for CCP to do something like this is chilling indeed.
I respect their right to maintain the sandbox. But my personal opinion is they are not the same company they were. This was well within bounds. That is a sad thing for EVE. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:57:00 -
[1634] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.
You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:58:00 -
[1635] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
or to say
what can men do against such wreckless shatting? |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:59:00 -
[1636] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: save the crying for when they don't give stuff back they should have. until then, they probably will return unrelated stuff
Given CCP's past trackrecord of false positives for RMT, and now taking assets that had nothing to do with FW because they were the same asset type, well, I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to do anything of the sort. The greater issue is. This means combining mechanics in EVE to an unforseen outcome is an exploit. Forget the ISK for a second. This means EVE is not the EVE we thought it was. Read the thread, many people feel this is well within the mechanics. I would say most have voiced their support. If it's such a grey area, that the majority of people believe it to be legit, for CCP to do something like this is chilling indeed. I respect their right to maintain the sandbox. But my personal opinion is they are not the same company they were. This was well within bounds. That is a sad thing for EVE.
dude, you are not the first person to say "dude if you do A, then B, then C, this happens" in a video game and then get smacked down by GMs who say "nope, that wasn't supposed to happen"
not the first in an online game, not the first in eve... it's an exploit. get over it. live and learn. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:00:00 -
[1637] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.
Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.
And nothing else. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:01:00 -
[1638] - Quote
Vincent Athen wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right? If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem. The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee. Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this. CCP Sreegs posted (possible multiple times) that he'd make sure who trespassed (i.e. caught botting etc) would be beaten hard. This is possibly the "beaten hard" example. Ah, yes, the "manipulate the markets to take advantage of FW" bot. I hear that's a really popular one among ice miners these days.
Hey you have just to watch the fanfest videos to realize that what I say is true. In CCP Sreegs eyes a botter, a cheater a RMTer and an exploiter are all the same cockroach to crush. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
357
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:01:00 -
[1639] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.
The more fair comparison, is to compare the CCP of today, with the CCP of years past. I am not trying to be all conspiracy theory here. But ever since they have gotten into bed with Sony, they seem to kneejerk much more readily to press. It's my belief that they are marketing driven now. A marketing department who doesn't understand the value of the sandbox, and just wants good press. Anything remotely negative gets you pounded. That is their right, but it's not the EVE many of us love. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:01:00 -
[1640] - Quote
Xython wrote:
If that's what they were doing, we wouldn't be up in arms. They are not just doing that. They are removing assets that the Goon Economics team had prior to this situation that had nothing to do with our demonstration of the poorly designed FW change.
Please understand -- if this was just rolling back the 5 trillion, we'd be fine. It's beyond that.
Of course, there's no way for any of us to know what's really being done as we don't have access to these assets. We only have the word of those reporting on it. |
|
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:02:00 -
[1641] - Quote
I'm a junior software developer and can tell this is not an exploit. It's just a poor game mechanic used in an unpredicted way. A game as big as EVE Online deserves much more attention when making changes specially regarding ISK input. I feel sorry for the devs that implemented this, it's a terrible situation. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:02:00 -
[1642] - Quote
There really is no sandbox when the company tells you they can do whatever they want to you without even giving you a reason for it. They can close your account, they can take all your assets, they can ban you, they can delete you ... none of that would take place in a sandbox.
Eve is not a sandbox, it's a single shard universe. That is why they can tell you that how you're playing the game is wrong.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:03:00 -
[1643] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored. The more fair comparison, is to compare the CCP of today, with the CCP of years past. I am not trying to be all conspiracy theory here. But ever since they have gotten into bed with Sony, they seem to kneejerk much more readily to press. It's my belief that they are marketing driven now. A marketing department who doesn't understand the value of the sandbox, and just wants good press. Anything remotely negative gets you pounded. That is their right, but it's not the EVE many of us love.
I love eve more with 5000 stabber fleet issue blueprints in my assets window
I love even less when I dont have these things |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:03:00 -
[1644] - Quote
I hear if you fit a destroyer or battlecruiser for maximum dps, you can shoot people and blow them up in high security space before CONCORD gets there.
Why, if enough people do this they could even destroy entire freighters! CCP, please investigate and ban! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
223
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:05:00 -
[1645] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. I think the message is really, file a bug report and don't exploit the bug/design flaw. Let me tell you what happens when you file a bug report: nothing. Some people abuse the system for a year, and then they deal with it after "too many" people find out about it. If only a few people know about it and exploit it it is no problem. Once the general population is aware of it, then it becomes a problem and then the exploiters have to find the next bug. In this case it seems too much was done too fast, and effectively violated the rule of not making it so severe that it needs dealt with. Though really, I can see the reaction being possibly motivated by butthurt. There was a lot of :smug: in the beginning of this thread and a lot of isk worth of LP manipulated out of it. Without knowing how much was made before this was self-reported makes it hard to make any sort of outside judgement IMHO. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:06:00 -
[1646] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored. Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever. And nothing else.
So would that mean that Goons killed Eve?
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:06:00 -
[1647] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Hey you have just to watch the fanfest videos to realize that what I say is true. In CCP Sreegs eyes a botter, a cheater a RMTer and an exploiter are all the same cockroach to crush.
And apparently those who creatively use legitimate game mechanics are yet another cockroach. No big surprise after hooking up with Sony.
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.
And nothing else.
So would that mean that Goons killed Eve? [/quote]
I wouldn't go so far as to say killed. Catalyzed, perhaps. The event that caused CCP to show its (new) true colors, perhaps. Killed? Not really. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:08:00 -
[1648] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored. Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever. And nothing else.
CCP are not out to provide you a testbed for theories and formulas but to make money.
You feel free to pee over the face to everyone INSIDE the sandbox. Once your emeralds encrusted willy shoots too high and trespasses the sandbox wall and wets the guys outside it, then they take a pair of scissors and cut the willy. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
62
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:08:00 -
[1649] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored. Blizzard being control freaks, what a surprising news.
I thought, however, that CCP was a bit better than that. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
357
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:09:00 -
[1650] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored. Blizzard being control freaks, what a surprising news. I thought, however, that CCP was a bit better than that.
As did I. They used to be. I guess not anymore though. |
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The Slayer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:10:00 -
[1651] - Quote
Shocked. |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:10:00 -
[1652] - Quote
Seen this all before. An incorrect punishment handed out because the developers didn't get a fix in time. Marketing over-correcting due to bad press. Mass revolt with threatened revenue streams and further bad press problems brings in management. Some backpedalling and quiet negotiations.
It all could have been avoided by doing something appropriate when that voice under the troll-bridge asks you who is clomp clomp clomping over their sandbox. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1139
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:11:00 -
[1653] - Quote
dw guys we still own over 50% of all of the tech in the game |
ashley Eoner
18
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:11:00 -
[1654] - Quote
All I can say is....
HA HA
Keep crying it's amusing.
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Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
19
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:11:00 -
[1655] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
The 5 people involved were not white hats. They were grey hats. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1402
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:11:00 -
[1656] - Quote
Aryth wrote: As did I. They used to be. I guess not anymore though.
You talk like this time it's YOUR game that got ruined. And parody of the impossible, by your former big guy. I mean, even scripting this episode people would find it not believable. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:12:00 -
[1657] - Quote
Xython wrote:Inspiration wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go! Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right. I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities. SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed! "excess LP" = something from nothing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "excess", right?
That is one way to look at it, but its not producing which was the argument being made to me. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
19
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:12:00 -
[1658] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. I think the message is really, file a bug report and don't exploit the bug/design flaw. Let me tell you what happens when you file a bug report: nothing. Some people abuse the system for a year, and then they deal with it after "too many" people find out about it. If only a few people know about it and exploit it it is no problem. Once the general population is aware of it, then it becomes a problem and then the exploiters have to find the next bug. Then don't complain when they take your stuff? Really, I'm sorry for their loses, but... Why not say CCP here's the situation....I'm about to blow up these ships...and....profit...!
Set the execution, but don't pull the trigger. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
37
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:13:00 -
[1659] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
The more fair comparison, is to compare the CCP of today, with the CCP of years past. I am not trying to be all conspiracy theory here. But ever since they have gotten into bed with Sony, they seem to kneejerk much more readily to press. It's my belief that they are marketing driven now. A marketing department who doesn't understand the value of the sandbox, and just wants good press. Anything remotely negative gets you pounded. That is their right, but it's not the EVE many of us love.
CCP taking your ill gotten goods and a little extra sounds like a lite punishment to me. I expected some bannings. My guess is not getting banned is your reward for cooperating in the investigation. Plea bargaining and all.
I was never satisfied with the T20 incident, and that represents "old EvE". Maybe in "new EvE" things like that, and like this to some degree (I'll give you this was nothing compared to T20) will not be tolerated.
If you are planning on quitting because of this, I'd like to go on record with "Can I have your stuff"? |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1139
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:13:00 -
[1660] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
The 5 people involved were not white hats. They were grey hats.
white, grey, they are but differing shades of brown when shat upon |
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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1166
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:13:00 -
[1661] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:All I can say is....
HA HA
Keep crying it's amusing.
as predicted, the pubbies are gloating despite the fact that they are far from capable of pulling these kinds of things off a rogue goon |
Geertruida Zelle
Quantum Wake The Fendahlian Collective
17
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:13:00 -
[1662] - Quote
ok, some enterprising Goons did some homework and found a loophole and made some isk.- they didn't break the "law", they found a "legal loophole" and used it to their advantage.
Now its fine that CCP fix the loophole, but random seizure of assets is a step too far.
Shame on you CCP, you have done another poop in your own Sandpit. |
Ituhata
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:14:00 -
[1663] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:I hear if you fit a destroyer or battlecruiser for maximum dps, you can shoot people and blow them up in high security space before CONCORD gets there.
Why, if enough people do this they could even destroy entire freighters! CCP, please investigate and ban!
Poking my nose in to point out the difference in a carjacking by thugs and a multibillion dollar corporation in the news for swindling the (your country here-ican) people out of trillions of dollars due to an oversight in federal rules. Bad press and knee-jerk reactions.
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Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:14:00 -
[1664] - Quote
Really surprised CCP took negative action on this. Must have really pushed the embarassment button.
But I agree with the GOONs action. CCP is quite arrogant in ignoring reports of exploitable conditions.
I have reported how easily market conditions and averages can be exploited for years. I have watched other do so on a few billion ISK scale. And I admit I have tested my assumptions enough to see that it worked as I expected. Wasn't foolish enough to report it or continue given that I figured someone eventually do as the GOONs did - make it so obvious and grand CCP couldn't deny it.
In the meantime it was interesting how many EVE loyalists were willing to put on blinders. You could show them how it worked. But when you pointed to other areas of the market acting oddly - they tended to say CCP is on top of anything important and anyway that area of the market is too big to manipulate on any scale. They couldn't believe anyone had or would risk 100Bs ISK to manipulate 10-50% or more changes in market -- even when its was obvious that you couldn't lose ISK unless someone opposed you and was willing to lose big ISK doing so.
Unfortunately its now apparent that CCP itself took this show of loyalty by a small but significant fraction of players as partial proof that manipulation was not occurring and therefore not possible.
*** Contributing to the ease of manipulation of the EVE market is the lack of many RL constraints and differentiations such that the only realistic way to short circuit market price manipulation is to carry sale price with each item and then only include it in market data the first time its fitted to a ship. ****
Too many other times its impossible to tell -- retail from wholesale, buy orders (more a futures/wholesale market) from sell orders (at least items exists even if its not clearly going to enduser retail rather than wholesale). And what about all that loot with effectively zero manufacture cost and less labor than mining?
And of course I love how the CCP price warning suggests to noobs that the market average is necessarily a good retail price EVE wide when this might be a region which effectively produces wholesale with few retail sales. ROFLMAO -- lots of noobs are scared to place goods at higher levels for fear its a rules violation.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
358
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:14:00 -
[1665] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote: As did I. They used to be. I guess not anymore though.
You talk like this time it's YOUR game that got ruined. And parody of the impossible, by your former big guy. I mean, even scripting this episode people would find it not believable.
It's your game too. Would you not like to be able to engage at manipulation on this scale? |
Bridgette d'Iberville
DeadStar Marauders
24
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:14:00 -
[1666] - Quote
For the love of all that is GOOD!
T5 Cashout
Please tell me they let you keep the two Civilian Miners and the Miner I... Neut the bastards |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
536
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:16:00 -
[1667] - Quote
Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"? Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:17:00 -
[1668] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
The 5 people involved were not white hats. They were grey hats.
By lashing out, CCP has just blackened their hats and souls with the darkest of infernal charcoal.
Pain will be dished out in due time. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
358
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:17:00 -
[1669] - Quote
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:For the love of all that is GOOD! T5 CashoutPlease tell me they let you keep the two Civilian Miners and the Miner I...
They did. Those were there as a troll incase people remember civ miner guy out there. I guess no one remembered him. |
The Slayer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:19:00 -
[1670] - Quote
CCP How many people who abused the Pax Amarria thing did you remove ISK from? Oh thats right none. |
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Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
205
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:19:00 -
[1671] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"?
probably just a troll
I'll believe CCP fixed the problem when they say they fixed the problem. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
358
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:19:00 -
[1672] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"?
No. Just that the game has changed a bit. Everyone will have their own opinion on if that is a good thing or not. Obviously I am biased but I have had this opinion every since they got neg-pressed into banning mittens. For something they clearly saw with their own eyes and ignored. |
Khergit Deserters
Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:19:00 -
[1673] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
The 5 people involved were not white hats. They were grey hats. By lashing out, CCP has just blackened their hats and souls with the darkest of infernal charcoal. Pain will be dished out in due time. Big girls don't cry. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:21:00 -
[1674] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
The 5 people involved were not white hats. They were grey hats. By lashing out, CCP has just blackened their hats and souls with the darkest of infernal charcoal. Pain will be dished out in due time. Big girls don't cry.
It's not even a threat, it's a statement. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:23:00 -
[1675] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. This was meant as advice, not criticism. You appear to be overly upset with CCP's response, so I'm just suggesting that you calm down before posting anything that might make matters worse.
When Helicity and Liang got banned last year, they both lost their temper in public and said a few things - true or not - that wasn't appreciated by CCP. They would have both done better to cool off and stay away from the keyboard for a couple of hours.
Note: I have a hot temper, too, and I end up deleting more of my responses than I actually post on the forums. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
224
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:23:00 -
[1676] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:CCP How many people who abused the Pax Amarria thing did you remove ISK from? Oh thats right none. I'd be interested to see if possible the total worth of the Pax Amarria issue as compared to this. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
536
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:23:00 -
[1677] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"? No. Just that the game has changed a bit. Everyone will have their own opinion on if that is a good thing or not. Obviously I am biased but I have had this opinion every since they got neg-pressed into banning mittens. For something they clearly saw with their own eyes and ignored.
If there are members of your alliance who have had items removed despite not having anything to do with this mess, then I have plenty of sympathy for them, but for those who knew exactly what they were doing I have none to spare. Bringing up past and unrelated incidents does nothing to strengthen your argument I'm afraid. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
526
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:25:00 -
[1678] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"? We've gone from 'isn't this an awesome game where players control their own destinies in an open sandbox and this sort of thing is possible' to, 'hmmm, guess we were wrong about the whole open sandbox thing'.
Eve Online 2012: Winning is an exploit. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:25:00 -
[1679] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Khergit Deserters wrote:Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
The 5 people involved were not white hats. They were grey hats. By lashing out, CCP has just blackened their hats and souls with the darkest of infernal charcoal. Pain will be dished out in due time. Big girls don't cry. It's not even a threat, it's a statement.
That sort of statement is unwarranted and is a complete over reaction to the current situation. You would do well to take a self enforced break from gaming if you cannot distance yourself properly. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:25:00 -
[1680] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"? No. Just that the game has changed a bit. Everyone will have their own opinion on if that is a good thing or not. Obviously I am biased but I have had this opinion every since they got neg-pressed into banning mittens. For something they clearly saw with their own eyes and ignored.
Right. CCP got in bed with Sony for DUST and it clearly changed their sensibilities. Sony doesn't do sandbox games, Sony does games with very strict rules. That concept and sandbox games don't mesh well.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The Slayer wrote:CCP How many people who abused the Pax Amarria thing did you remove ISK from? Oh thats right none. I'd be interested to see if possible the total worth of the Pax Amarria issue as compared to this.
1.8 billion units of nocxium were produced from the Pax Amarria thing. |
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Quebber
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
29
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:25:00 -
[1681] - Quote
EVE is a lesser sandbox today, a lesser game gloat all you wish little by little freedoms of innovation and limits pushed removed one at a time. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:26:00 -
[1682] - Quote
Sony took all my sand and Fleet issue tempests. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:27:00 -
[1683] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
That sort of statement is unwarranted and is a complete over reaction to the current situation. You would do well to take a self enforced break from gaming if you cannot distance yourself properly.
I'm not even in the extreme finance group, I'm just saying that next time they won't go easy on the market like they did this time. |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:27:00 -
[1684] - Quote
Just because you told a bank owner how you robbed their bank doesn't mean you can keep the money you stole. If the goons had anysense they'd of kept their mouths shut for massive profit, waving that e-peen around brings nothing but trouble. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:27:00 -
[1685] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"? We've gone from 'isn't this an awesome game where players control their own destinies in an open sandbox and this sort of thing is possible' to, 'hmmm, guess we were wrong about the whole open sandbox thing'. Eve Online 2012: Winning is an exploit.
It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken, any more than it is legal to keep a bag of cash a bank robber dropped on his way out of the bank.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
38
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:28:00 -
[1686] - Quote
The torrential downpour of Goon tears will sustain me for years to come. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
224
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:28:00 -
[1687] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The Slayer wrote:CCP How many people who abused the Pax Amarria thing did you remove ISK from? Oh thats right none. I'd be interested to see if possible the total worth of the Pax Amarria issue as compared to this. 1.8 billion units of nocxium were produced from the Pax Amarria thing. Thanks |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1167
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:29:00 -
[1688] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken
good, so every alliance who has taken their tech moons through use of blapping titans should have them taken away
a rogue goon |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:29:00 -
[1689] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Just because you told a bank owner how you robbed their bank doesn't mean you can keep the money you stole.
Technically they didn't rob a bank, they merely fixed inflation and robbed other players. |
ashley Eoner
19
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:29:00 -
[1690] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:All I can say is....
HA HA
Keep crying it's amusing. as predicted, the pubbies are gloating despite the fact that they are far from capable of pulling these kinds of things off Moar plz |
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Joroon
Perkone Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:29:00 -
[1691] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:The torrential downpour of Goon tears will sustain me for years to come.
And the butt-hurt that emerges from you when nothing happens to the Jewbal will entertain us for about 15 minutes. |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:30:00 -
[1692] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Jayrendo Karr wrote:Just because you told a bank owner how you robbed their bank doesn't mean you can keep the money you stole. Technically they didn't rob a bank, they merely fixed inflation and robbed other players. How does this fix inflation? |
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
398
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:30:00 -
[1693] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"? We've gone from 'isn't this an awesome game where players control their own destinies in an open sandbox and this sort of thing is possible' to, 'hmmm, guess we were wrong about the whole open sandbox thing'. Eve Online 2012: Winning is an exploit. It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken, any more than it is legal to keep a bag of cash a bank robber dropped on his way out of the bank.
Holy **** this is totally different you ******. What a terrible analogy. |
Cutter Isaacson
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:31:00 -
[1694] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken good, so every alliance who has taken their tech moons through use of blapping titans should have them taken away
Trying to push attention away from the current situation does not change it. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:31:00 -
[1695] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Jayrendo Karr wrote:Just because you told a bank owner how you robbed their bank doesn't mean you can keep the money you stole. Technically they didn't rob a bank, they merely fixed inflation and robbed other players. How does this fix inflation?
They paid massive amounts of isk to the isk sink that is the LP store, thus removing it from the game forever. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:31:00 -
[1696] - Quote
Joroon wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:The torrential downpour of Goon tears will sustain me for years to come. And the butt-hurt that emerges from you when nothing happens to the Jewbal will entertain us for about 15 minutes.
basically
but then the reverse butthurt when they actually do lose their stuff will make it even more better |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
379
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:32:00 -
[1697] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:They paid massive amounts of isk to the isk sink that is the LP store, thus removing it from the game forever. CCP should return that ISK. Nothing Found |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1167
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:32:00 -
[1698] - Quote
i lost a megathron to a nanomach back before the speed nerf
can i get it back a rogue goon |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1167
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:33:00 -
[1699] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Joroon wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:The torrential downpour of Goon tears will sustain me for years to come. And the butt-hurt that emerges from you when nothing happens to the Jewbal will entertain us for about 15 minutes. basically but then the reverse butthurt when they actually do lose their stuff will make it even more better
they can confiscate 80% of aryth's assets and he'll still be ballin' rich a rogue goon |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:33:00 -
[1700] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:i lost a megathron to a nanomach back before the speed nerf
can i get it back
yes
I'm not sure that you will though. |
|
Janet Patton
Brony Express
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:34:00 -
[1701] - Quote
For how long was your erection after posting what could of been summed up in 6000 characters or less?
I still give you a +1 for your exploits.
Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke. |
george harries
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:34:00 -
[1702] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored. The more fair comparison, is to compare the CCP of today, with the CCP of years past. I am not trying to be all conspiracy theory here. But ever since they have gotten into bed with Sony, they seem to kneejerk much more readily to press. It's my belief that they are marketing driven now. A marketing department who doesn't understand the value of the sandbox, and just wants good press. Anything remotely negative gets you pounded. That is their right, but it's not the EVE many of us love.
Yeah, and remember the "Eve many of us love" is pissed on by Goons on a regular basis who then gloat and bait people who get annoyed about it. Frankly you should be thankful you haven't had your accounts permabanned.
Please stop whining you used an exploit and gloated about how superior and brilliant you are....wow shocker CCP jumped on an exploiter......as Goons are so keen on saying HTFU. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:35:00 -
[1703] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Joroon wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:The torrential downpour of Goon tears will sustain me for years to come. And the butt-hurt that emerges from you when nothing happens to the Jewbal will entertain us for about 15 minutes. basically but then the reverse butthurt when they actually do lose their stuff will make it even more better they can confiscate 80% of aryth's assets and he'll still be da 1%
we really dont care whether he feels a hit
its for the sake of the LP market, the game in general, that his stuffs must go |
Lord Zim
908
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:37:00 -
[1704] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken good, so every alliance who has taken their tech moons through use of blapping titans should have them taken away But that was clearly not broken, I mean they haven't changed titans since then, have they? :haw: |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1167
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:39:00 -
[1705] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken good, so every alliance who has taken their tech moons through use of blapping titans should have them taken away But that was clearly not broken, I mean they haven't changed titans since then, have they? :haw:
can we also get back the thousands of ships we lost to aoe dds, just on principle
they were broken too a rogue goon |
Lord Zim
908
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:39:00 -
[1706] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Jayrendo Karr wrote:Just because you told a bank owner how you robbed their bank doesn't mean you can keep the money you stole. Technically they didn't rob a bank, they merely fixed inflation and robbed other players. How does this fix inflation? At least 500 billion were removed from the eve universe. |
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:39:00 -
[1707] - Quote
PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. |
Anuillae Fourneaux
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:39:00 -
[1708] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken good, so every alliance who has taken their tech moons through use of blapping titans should have them taken away But that was clearly not broken, I mean they haven't changed titans since then, have they? :haw:
PC Gamer never reported the tech moons, though. There's the difference. |
Lord Zim
908
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:43:00 -
[1709] - Quote
Anuillae Fourneaux wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken good, so every alliance who has taken their tech moons through use of blapping titans should have them taken away But that was clearly not broken, I mean they haven't changed titans since then, have they? :haw: PC Gamer never reported the tech moons, though. There's the difference. I meant the tracking titans, not tech. but yes, it could just as easily reference tech, now that I think of it. |
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:46:00 -
[1710] - Quote
CCP is taking unrelated assets from people who used a game mechanic. A mechanic CCP was told about, publicly, before it ever left the test server. CCP was told that this could happen if the patch went in unchanged. The patch went live unchanged. |
|
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:49:00 -
[1711] - Quote
I just realized this is the second time in the past few weeks where this statement seemed appropriate:
"We aren't trying to ruin the game, we're just trying to ruin your game" - CCP |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1140
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:52:00 -
[1712] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting.
|
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:52:00 -
[1713] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Anuillae Fourneaux wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:It is not winning when you abuse a mechanic you know to be broken good, so every alliance who has taken their tech moons through use of blapping titans should have them taken away But that was clearly not broken, I mean they haven't changed titans since then, have they? :haw: PC Gamer never reported the tech moons, though. There's the difference. I meant the tracking titans, not tech. but yes, it could just as easily reference tech, now that I think of it. But yes, the common denominator of the last 2 incidents seems to have been "bad press". I guess a new burn jita wouldn't be looked upon as "******* awesome", now.
**** me do you not sleep, what time zone are you in, are you some auto answering bot , are you a collective .......
Tal
|
Billy Buysalot
Mega Ore Extraction
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:53:00 -
[1714] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting.
It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this. |
Khergit Deserters
Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:53:00 -
[1715] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"? We've gone from 'isn't this an awesome game where players control their own destinies in an open sandbox and this sort of thing is possible' to, 'hmmm, guess we were wrong about the whole open sandbox thing'. Eve Online 2012: Winning is an exploit. I can see your perspective, but think about it-- the outcome here was just completely skewed and unrealistic, based on manipulating a new feature from a new update. If it had been a massive scam on players, fine. Or market manipulation-- great, hats off to you. But just picking at a design loophole and exploiting it on a grand scale-- is that open sandbox? Clever and brilliant, yes. But desirable in the game? |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:54:00 -
[1716] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting.
I hear there might even be a slashdot article !!!!
|
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:56:00 -
[1717] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. I hear there might even be a slashdot article !!!!
Where did you hear this? I am going by the public comments by a PCGamer senior editor. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:56:00 -
[1718] - Quote
Eve 2012: Being able to read and comprehend a dev blog gets your assets removed
The only part of the "exploit" that wasnt implied in that devblog was "how EVE calculate the market value of items". And the answer happened to be "like a 2-weeks old newbie falling for a contract scam" |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
364
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:56:00 -
[1719] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:CCP is taking unrelated assets from people who used a game mechanic. A mechanic CCP was told about, publicly, before it ever left the test server. CCP was told that this could happen if the patch went in unchanged. The patch went live unchanged.
This cannot be stressed enough. These mechanics came in with the design having clearly been pointed out as bad to CCP. They brought in the mechanic anyway, we zergrushed that mechanic.
to Summerize.
CCP knew the design was flawed ahead of time CCP Deployed it to the live server anyway ZERGRUSH 5% CCP Sees something. Nerf's Cargodrops. CCP runs their price updater and enables the manipulated items to take effect. ZERGRUSH with market price manipulated item 95% CCP detects nothing Goons: Hey CCP. Here is the entire write up. Oh good, you got the fix in fast. Hey, here are some more you missed. .. .. .. Goons: Wow, Really Bro? Even crap not related to FW you take?
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:57:00 -
[1720] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. I hear there might even be a slashdot article !!!! Where did you hear this? I am going by the public comments by a PCGamer senior editor.
apparently you weren't paying attention when i explained my elite secret irc channels |
|
Anuillae Fourneaux
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:57:00 -
[1721] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. I hear there might even be a slashdot article !!!! Where did you hear this? I am going by the public comments by a PCGamer senior editor.
Can you please link to the public comments? I'd appreciate it. |
Django Returns
ARES Unlimited
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:57:00 -
[1722] - Quote
Where is your Sandbox now fanbois??
IF goons made a fortune by using their brains and free market, CCP should have no right to take ISK away. CCP would become pathetic and a joke...
The market will regulate itsself?? Yeah, Goons will regulate your asses now! |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:58:00 -
[1723] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:But desirable in the game? If we base punishment on "is behavior X desirable in the game", then we enter some dangerous territory, because on which basis do you define "desirable"? Also, is this defined before the punishment is doled out, or are those rules that (I assume) CCP will make up retroactive? But regardless, seizing capital gains that are a direct result of some "undesirable" behavior is one thing; taking a bunch of stuff now and sort it out some other time is a whole other can of worms. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:58:00 -
[1724] - Quote
Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this.
I'd love to see them justify how this isn't okay, but mass insurance fraud was. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:59:00 -
[1725] - Quote
Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this.
I could help them there:
Burn Jita was "f*cking brilliant"
Where this is "f*cking lame" |
Lord Zim
909
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:00:00 -
[1726] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:**** me do you not sleep, what time zone are you in, are you some auto answering bot , are you a collective ....... I'm your posting god. Kneel before Zim. |
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:00:00 -
[1727] - Quote
Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this.
My guess is they will make a vague but self-congratulatory dev-blog, then quietly return assets after some time passes, while not commenting on it publicly.
CCP is in a really bad position given how loudly and proudly they trumpet 'Sandbox' to all the gaming media. My feeling is that Sony is putting pressure on CCP to no longer run EVE as a Sandbox, and instead make it much more like all the other MMOs out there, with little real player-driven economy. |
Implying Implications
cuties4life
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:00:00 -
[1728] - Quote
:ccp: Minmatar V3 gallery: http://minus.com/mOqXRikn5 |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:00:00 -
[1729] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this. I could help them there: Burn Jita was "f*cking brilliant" Where this is "f*cking lame"
Try mine next since its literally the same thing, ie a game mechanic becoming an isk printing machine. |
Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:01:00 -
[1730] - Quote
Isn't karma a *****? |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:01:00 -
[1731] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this. My guess is they will make a vague but self-congratulatory dev-blog, then quietly return assets after some time passes, while not commenting on it publicly. CCP is in a really bad position given how loudly and proudly they trumpet 'Sandbox' to all the gaming media. My feeling is that Sony is putting pressure on CCP to no longer run EVE as a Sandbox, and instead make it much more like all the other MMOs out there, with little real player-driven economy.
Wow its almost like I said this pages ago. First step in the death of eve, "carebears mining veldspar forever and nothing else" and all that. |
Wibla
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:03:00 -
[1732] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Isn't karma a *****?
What do you think they will do the next time they find something as gamebreaking as this was after the treatment they are getting now? Notify CCP, or just run the market into a deep enough ditch that it cant' be fixed?
Think about it.
Karma can be a *****, indeed. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:06:00 -
[1733] - Quote
I am really confused as to why tech 2 bpo still exist let alone the money made from them over the years if "abusing" something to generate massive resources is an exploit.
I mean the t2 bpo thing dwarfs this by what a factor of at least 10 if not 100 or more. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:06:00 -
[1734] - Quote
Aryth wrote:asd3452 wrote:CCP is taking unrelated assets from people who used a game mechanic. A mechanic CCP was told about, publicly, before it ever left the test server. CCP was told that this could happen if the patch went in unchanged. The patch went live unchanged. This cannot be stressed enough. These mechanics came in with the design having clearly been pointed out as bad to CCP. They brought in the mechanic anyway, we zergrushed that mechanic. to Summerize. CCP knew the design was flawed ahead of time CCP Deployed it to the live server anyway ZERGRUSH 5% CCP Sees something. Nerf's Cargodrops. CCP runs their price updater and enables the manipulated items to take effect. ZERGRUSH with market price manipulated item 95% CCP detects nothing Goons: Hey CCP. Here is the entire write up. Oh good, you got the fix in fast. Hey, here are some more you missed. .. .. "oh, and yeah, I pilfered 5trillion isk worth of junk and screwed up faction wars for a few weeks, I hope that's cool." .. Goons: Wow, Really Bro? Even crap not related to FW you take?
Fixed |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:07:00 -
[1735] - Quote
corestwo wrote:asd3452 wrote:Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this. My guess is they will make a vague but self-congratulatory dev-blog, then quietly return assets after some time passes, while not commenting on it publicly. CCP is in a really bad position given how loudly and proudly they trumpet 'Sandbox' to all the gaming media. My feeling is that Sony is putting pressure on CCP to no longer run EVE as a Sandbox, and instead make it much more like all the other MMOs out there, with little real player-driven economy. Wow its almost like I said this pages ago. First step in the death of eve, "carebears mining veldspar forever and nothing else" and all that.
Just sayin I called this back when mittens got banned. Holla |
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:07:00 -
[1736] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Just because you told a bank owner how you robbed their bank doesn't mean you can keep the money you stole. If the goons had anysense they'd of kept their mouths shut for massive profit, waving that e-peen around brings nothing but trouble.
You fundamentally fail to understand why Goons play Eve. It's all about the ePeen |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
224
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:07:00 -
[1737] - Quote
Aryth wrote:asd3452 wrote:CCP is taking unrelated assets from people who used a game mechanic. A mechanic CCP was told about, publicly, before it ever left the test server. CCP was told that this could happen if the patch went in unchanged. The patch went live unchanged. This cannot be stressed enough. These mechanics came in with the design having clearly been pointed out as bad to CCP. They brought in the mechanic anyway, we zergrushed that mechanic. to Summerize. CCP knew the design was flawed ahead of time CCP Deployed it to the live server anyway ZERGRUSH 5% CCP Sees something. Nerf's Cargodrops. CCP runs their price updater and enables the manipulated items to take effect. ZERGRUSH with market price manipulated item 95% CCP detects nothing Goons: Hey CCP. Here is the entire write up. Oh good, you got the fix in fast. Hey, here are some more you missed. .. .. .. Goons: Wow, Really Bro? Even crap not related to FW you take? Were it not for this thread and the extent to which it was done, this might be a totally different situation right now. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:07:00 -
[1738] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:asd3452 wrote:CCP is taking unrelated assets from people who used a game mechanic. A mechanic CCP was told about, publicly, before it ever left the test server. CCP was told that this could happen if the patch went in unchanged. The patch went live unchanged. This cannot be stressed enough. These mechanics came in with the design having clearly been pointed out as bad to CCP. They brought in the mechanic anyway, we zergrushed that mechanic. to Summerize. CCP knew the design was flawed ahead of time CCP Deployed it to the live server anyway ZERGRUSH 5% CCP Sees something. Nerf's Cargodrops. CCP runs their price updater and enables the manipulated items to take effect. ZERGRUSH with market price manipulated item 95% CCP detects nothing Goons: Hey CCP. Here is the entire write up. Oh good, you got the fix in fast. Hey, here are some more you missed. .. .. "oh, and yeah, I pilfered 5trillion isk worth of junk and screwed up faction wars for a few weeks, I hope that's cool." .. Goons: Wow, Really Bro? Even crap not related to FW you take? Fixed
You win. I like yours even better
|
Tokclik
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:09:00 -
[1739] - Quote
The precedence this sets is awesome. There is only one outcome that can come from this. The next time the Jewcabal finds a loophole they will run it on a scale many orders of magnitude greater than this little escapade, definitely not tell CCP about it, and come as close to destroying the Eve economy for a very long time. |
Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:10:00 -
[1740] - Quote
By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:11:00 -
[1741] - Quote
Tokclik wrote: The precedence this sets is awesome. There is only one outcome that can come from this. The next time the Jewcabal finds a loophole they will run it on a scale many orders of magnitude greater than this little escapade, definitely not tell CCP about it, and come as close to destroying the Eve economy for a very long time.
And presumably use NPC alts.
Or Eve University alts.... Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:12:00 -
[1742] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. I think it's very fitting that you bring out that analogy, because all of that **** that goes on at airports these days is security theater, just like what happens here. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Lord Zim
912
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:13:00 -
[1743] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. What an unpatriotic thing to say. You must be a terrorist. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4134
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:13:00 -
[1744] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports.
No one from Goldman Sachs went to prison. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:14:00 -
[1745] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports.
Wait, do you actually think airports are more secure now? |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:15:00 -
[1746] - Quote
Almost makes these comics look prescient: http://trenchescomic.com/comic/post/raiment through http://trenchescomic.com/comic/post/parallel |
Tokclik
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:15:00 -
[1747] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports.
Making a comparison between someone who helped kill thousands and someone who found a loophole in a videogame is moronic.
A better comparison is the best people in IT security all started out as hackers and respect the up and coming hackers teaching them new things. |
Fix Lag
301
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:16:00 -
[1748] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. What an unpatriotic thing to say. You must be a terrorist.
Anally probe him to assess his threat level.
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:17:00 -
[1749] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. No one from Goldman Sachs went to prison.
And they still have their ill gotten gains.
|
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:17:00 -
[1750] - Quote
Tokclik wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. Making a comparison between someone who helped kill thousands and someone who found a loophole in a videogame is moronic. A better comparison is the best people in IT security all started out as hackers and respect the up and coming hackers teaching them new things.
A better example would be a Farmer selling Strawberries for $2 less than the local store, and me telling the farmer this, and him not changing the price. Then, I buy all his strawberries and he hits me with a shovel. CCP is the angry dumb farmer with a shovel. |
|
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:17:00 -
[1751] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. Wait, do you actually think airports are more secure now?
Well, the people traveling trough it certainly are not more safe. The chance of your butt crack getting opened is many times higher, and given that who cares about terrorists!
I cannot speak for the buildings however! |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:17:00 -
[1752] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. Wait, do you actually think airports are more secure now?
Well checking out all the hot chicks through the nude viewer does have its perks.
|
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
248
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:18:00 -
[1753] - Quote
why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:18:00 -
[1754] - Quote
Tokclik wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. Making a comparison between someone who helped kill thousands and someone who found a loophole in a videogame is moronic. A better comparison is the best people in IT security all started out as hackers and respect the up and coming hackers teaching them new things.
Not that much moronic as failing on twitter in operation of this scale. |
Kalzin Maya
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:18:00 -
[1755] - Quote
Goon Behavior: Lets take advantage of a loophole to get rich, than to prevent others from doing the same after we get rich by telling CCP....
Good Behavior: Hey CCP we think this is a loophole, we would like to work with you to show how we think this will pan out.... |
Lord Zim
913
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:18:00 -
[1756] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:asd3452 wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. Wait, do you actually think airports are more secure now? Well, the people traveling trough it certainly are not more safe. The chance of your butt crack getting opened is many times higher, and given that who cares about terrorists! I cannot speak for the buildings however! them evil buttcracks, always hiding them evil terrorists. |
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:20:00 -
[1757] - Quote
Goon Tears Best Tears.
Thanks for an entertaining hour from Bleet Fleet.
Testing a bug is fine. Continuing to benefit using that bug is not. There was a way to get more then one pilot training on an account a few years ago. When I found out about it I tested it to confirm it was repeatable. Then I STOPPED training on one of the pilots so I was not abusing the bug. Then filed a bug report.
Goons found a bug. LP for no destructed cargo. Then continued to take advantage of that bug, KNOWING it was not intended. This is called an Exploit. While this bug does not encompass the entire issue it is a part of an already questionable act.
CCP may have overreacted, CCP may change their actions (up or down). It is CCP's game, and if you **** with it they are within their rights to do as they wish.
I like the smugness of the OP and now the, as Bleet Fleet would say, "butthurt" cries of the children who now have to pay for being stupid.
Fallout is one fo the funnest parts of Eve for me. Sure, this is not going to approach the level of entertainment that Incarna was but still. Watching Goon's cry is always fun.
Oh, BTW. None of this effected me in the least, eccpet for the Gonnie tears. Have yet another glass full. (only becuase I don't have a 50 gallon drum on hand to collect more. )
Have Fun, Fly Safe |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:20:00 -
[1758] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything
Actually they haven't that I know of. The only time they took away anything that I can remember is when they took away the gm/dev generated T2 generated BPOs that were given to Bob.
If you think this is similar at all you probably need serious help.
|
asd3452
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:23:00 -
[1759] - Quote
Paint wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything Actually they haven't that I know of. The only time they took away anything that I can remember is when they took away the gm/dev generated T2 generated BPOs that were given to Bob. If you think this is similar at all you probably need serious help.
CCP also did nothing about the trillions (with a 'T') isk worth of profit BoB and their CCP allies made off the BPOs, 'player' events, etc. |
Stevens
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:23:00 -
[1760] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything
Can you give an example of this? |
|
Fix Lag
301
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:24:00 -
[1761] - Quote
Ashina Sito wrote: Goons found a bug. LP for no destructed cargo. Then continued to take advantage of that bug, KNOWING it was not intended. This is called an Exploit. While this bug does not encompass the entire issue it is a part of an already questionable act.
hahahahahahahahahahaha
No wonder you'll always be spacepoor |
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:24:00 -
[1762] - Quote
double post |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
366
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:24:00 -
[1763] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything
I know people might not believe me. But no, I really did expect to be allowed to keep it. This was well within what I consider the boundaries of the game. Many people agree, this is EVE. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:26:00 -
[1764] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Paint wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything Actually they haven't that I know of. The only time they took away anything that I can remember is when they took away the gm/dev generated T2 generated BPOs that were given to Bob. If you think this is similar at all you probably need serious help. CCP also did nothing about the trillions (with a 'T') isk worth of profit BoB and their CCP allies made off the BPOs, 'player' events, etc.
True they never took away all the motherships that Bob/some others exploited out of the those events before they sacked all those player gms either did they. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:27:00 -
[1765] - Quote
Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin.
The CCP of 2 years ago couldn't pay it's bank loan.
The Dude wrote:Yes, Walter, you're right. There is an unspoken message here. It's "**** YOU" We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:28:00 -
[1766] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything I know people might not believe me. But I really did expect to be allowed to keep it. This was well within what I consider the boundaries of the game. Many people agree, this is EVE.
Indeed. "Manipulate a market?" Check, legit action. Gain LP from FW? Check, a legit action. Combine them both? Should be legit in the sandbox, CCP says no! Or maybe Sony says no? Who knows. Eve has changed. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Lord Zim
913
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:30:00 -
[1767] - Quote
Paint wrote:asd3452 wrote:Paint wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything Actually they haven't that I know of. The only time they took away anything that I can remember is when they took away the gm/dev generated T2 generated BPOs that were given to Bob. If you think this is similar at all you probably need serious help. CCP also did nothing about the trillions (with a 'T') isk worth of profit BoB and their CCP allies made off the BPOs, 'player' events, etc. True they never took away all the motherships that Bob/some others exploited out of the those events before they sacked all those player gms either did they. And they didn't do squat about the billions of units of nocx made from PA either, when we notified them of the problem. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
370
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:30:00 -
[1768] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin. The CCP of 2 years ago couldn't pay it's bank loan. The Dude wrote:Yes, Walter, you're right. There is an unspoken message here. It's "**** YOU"
Are you saying they sold out? |
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:30:00 -
[1769] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Tokclik wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. Making a comparison between someone who helped kill thousands and someone who found a loophole in a videogame is moronic. A better comparison is the best people in IT security all started out as hackers and respect the up and coming hackers teaching them new things. A better example would be a Farmer selling Strawberries for $2 less than the local store, and me telling the farmer this, and him not changing the price. Then, I buy all his strawberries and he hits me with a shovel. CCP is the angry dumb farmer with a shovel.
Has anyone considered that Goons just get a wild kick out of watching people get groped in a conga line? |
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:32:00 -
[1770] - Quote
It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:33:00 -
[1771] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin. The CCP of 2 years ago couldn't pay it's bank loan. The Dude wrote:Yes, Walter, you're right. There is an unspoken message here. It's "**** YOU" Are you saying they sold out?
Sounds like it. I'm inclined to agree, really. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:34:00 -
[1772] - Quote
Welp. This is a little more than ridiculous. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1591
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:34:00 -
[1773] - Quote
Lol - well played goons - I think it's kinda funny - CCP fucks up FW even more than it vwas by making changes totally unasked for and goons check it out. As usual, CCP messed things up and goons take advantage of it. CCP should join my corp, but instead they 'punish' goons. Yeah - right .
A game mechanic is legal as long as it's not labeled an exploit.
Duh - doesn't take a genius to give it a try each time they change something fundamental because they mess it up 80% of the time and and usually never admit it for years - see general plexing mechanics in FW or Winmatar boredom in general. You know... morons. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
470
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:35:00 -
[1774] - Quote
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P
"Teacher teacher, I found a small knife in my lunch, my mom must have given me hers by accident, I just wanted to make sure it's kept safe."
"YOU'RE EXPELLED!"
This literally happened at a local school. That is literally what's happening here. Won't tell other players about legitimate but unintended mechanics like this in the future, but I definitely won't be telling CCP either. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Totalrx
NA No Assholes Silver Twilight Enterprises
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:36:00 -
[1775] - Quote
Tokclik wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. Making a comparison between someone who helped kill thousands and someone who found a loophole in a videogame is moronic. A better comparison is the best people in IT security all started out as hackers and respect the up and coming hackers teaching them new things.
Agreed on the terrorist comparison. That was in poor taste and a poor example overall. Using Charles Ponzi would have made for a better example.
The old days in the newsgroups of the phreakers.
Yes, M$ used us and we used them. It was mutual. So did Norton (after M$ stole defrag from them) as well a McAffee, Dr Solomon's, as well as a few other corporations who were making firewall and security software. They kind of looked the other way when we'd open our FTP's for accounts and anon's.
The problem started when some of the 2600 peeps decided they wanted to see how far they could push it. A portion of the Regulators decided they were so influential in the system that they could be above the law and protocol.
It backfired. All of the phreaks involved suffered due to the over-exploitive actions of a percentage of the group. Let me tell you, getting phone calls and certified letters from the legal counsel of major corporations whom you used to laugh & joke with while helping them find holes was no laughing matter. It was no laughing matter for one of my closest 2600 contacts who had a choice - the military or prison. He went into the Marines.
Your comparison fits in one aspect - attitude.
I've sat back and ate my popcorn on this one. You exploited the system to your personal gain. While I do agree that a programmed mechanic in Eve's economy should be CCP"s responsibility, I can't blame them for backlashing Goonsquad. The title of the thread, the way it was written up, etc all have a "look at how we put CCP in their place - HAHA!"
IMHO - petitioning the exploit to CCP would have been the "helping CCP out" thing to do. Instead, you had it planned pre-patch and went for weeks until you had amassed and ungodly amount of ISK in a very short period of time. Then you flaunted it and taunted CCP.
CCP shouldn't take pre-exploit assets, as long as it can be proven by server logs that they were pre-exploit, but you should not have entered into a cyber-ego competition with CCP. They will win simply because they author this piece of software and it's their call who wins.
Back tot he popcorn....yummy |
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:36:00 -
[1776] - Quote
It isnt really a secret that many a corp have gotten their titan/titans from exploiting FW before inferno. As long as you dont go public its ok |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:41:00 -
[1777] - Quote
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It isnt really a secret that many a corp have gotten their titan/titans from exploiting FW before inferno. As long as you dont go public its ok
You can be sure that things like this will never go public again. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:43:00 -
[1778] - Quote
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P
No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it.
If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :-
A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie.
Tal
|
Better Than You
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:43:00 -
[1779] - Quote
Makes me wonder why there are removing other assets outside of the faction warfare ones... RMT much little goonies? |
Veryez
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:43:00 -
[1780] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, [/b]sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again.
[b]CCP reacted quickly and patched this out, but the damage was done (not that it really mattered since it would merely have delayed the inevitable); the cabal had our GÇ£seedGÇ¥ LP.
I would have applauded your ingenuity at a very elaborate and well conducted scheme. And while it might not have been a big part of your plan, you pretty much stated you exploited this bug rather than report it. Maybe you actually reported it first, but failed to mention that part in your writeup. I think your statement kind of forced CCP's hand. It's a shame you didn't completely pull this off, as it would most likely shown people what's possible in eve and brought more in. |
|
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:43:00 -
[1781] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything I know people might not believe me. But I really did expect to be allowed to keep it. This was well within what I consider the boundaries of the game. Many people agree, this is EVE.
But...you do know those players in corporations exploiting moon go reactions (where the goo wasn't consumed) were all banned. Now we can discuss semantics and if this is identical (in a way it is, but not in all aspects), but just getting assets nuked doesn't seem the hardest op actions CCP could take in that context.
CCP loves meta gaming and Goons excel at it and thus CCP loves Goons. I think that if some smaller unknown entity had done this to this level they would all have been banned! The assets nuked not part of the recent gains might just be a way of rectifying what cannot be 100% perfectly rectified (due to trades, conversions and whatnot).
As for you honestly expecting to keep it all, well, to be a little blunt...there are personality disorders named after such social blindness to effect on other people. No disrespect, I think you did a great job of putting CCP fail on the spot and maybe they start listening next time, but i have my doubts.
My first reaction on reading the whole thing...they must fire they CCP people responsible for this! But I know devs, i am one (not for games or CCP) and worked with many devs throughout my career. One this is certain, nearly all are blind for their own mistakes and many are so self-content with what they make they disregard input from others. This is the typical dev profile, great devs however are totally different in the listening to aspect, while still a little blind to their own mistakes. But thats human i suppose and in a sense a good thing, we don't want devs to be machines, now do we?
In saying so, I think CCP has not a good mix people to set game mechanics and a questionably track record in such matters. This drama was all avoidable in the first place, by both CCP and Goons. |
Jonni Favorite
Sundown Logistics SpaceMonkey's Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:44:00 -
[1782] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P "Teacher teacher, I found a small knife in my lunch, my mom must have given me hers by accident, I just wanted to make sure it's kept safe." "YOU'RE EXPELLED!" This literally happened at a local school. That is literally what's happening here. Won't tell other players about legitimate but unintended mechanics like this in the future, but I definitely won't be telling CCP either.
Or the case of a travelling salesman with a gun license in Indiana trying to check in his weapon at a convention in NY. He is now facing a gun charge. Goes to show it's better to apologize later than ask permission.. |
Meno Theaetetus
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:44:00 -
[1783] - Quote
I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
Consider a very wealthy player buying out an entire market of an item, to simulate demand and to raise prices. This is market manipulation, as is buying out a faction warfare items to change the average value of an item. This is part of EVE, and to prevent people from doing this would completely break the sandbox dynamic.
Part of the FW mechanics meant you could blow up your own stuff and get LP for it, this was well know, and it was spelled out to CCP that this would happen. They patched out part of it but didn't realise this left it open to market manipulation.
You can not punish someone for taking advantage of market manipulation, just the same as you cannot punish someone for taking advantage of a game mechanic that CCP knew well already existed. It is not the job of the players to judge what is 'reasonable' amounts of ISK to be making from a game mechanic.
If CCP deem the amount of isk generated excessive and damaging then they are right to take action, but considering no rules were broken the players involved should have ONLY the isk they generated taken away, and they should to compensated for the time they spent playing eve online within the mechanics sold as part of their monthly subscription.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
374
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:44:00 -
[1784] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal
People DID tell CCP before it was released in another thread. That is the point. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
476
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:44:00 -
[1785] - Quote
Haquer wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It isnt really a secret that many a corp have gotten their titan/titans from exploiting FW before inferno. As long as you dont go public its ok You can be sure that things like this will never go public again.
Aaaahh .. you'll exploit without telling anyone. Got it.
Good answer lol
Tal |
Dictator IV
EPOCH Industrial
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:45:00 -
[1786] - Quote
Even though I have zero relation to GF or any of its members, I want to express my support of this endeavor. The ability to come up with a scheme on such a grand scale deserves to be lauded, not punished.
In my eyes, the appeal of EVE is that it allows you to beat others to the "top" in so many different way. Do you want to be the king or the peasant? You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it, and that is what should separate EVE from the competition. Events like this actually bring me back into the game in hopes that I can someday be a space trillionaire. I'm sure that I am not alone in feeling that way.
Assets were gained legitimately, and should remain in their wallets/vaults/fortresses. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
476
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:46:00 -
[1787] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal People DID tell CCP. That is the point.
Ok so then before you you walked through the open door you heard that they had been warned that this could happen, but did it anyway ??
Look it was some clever ****, but you had to know the cr*p was going to fly ?
Tal
|
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
695
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:46:00 -
[1788] - Quote
Dictator IV wrote:Even though I have zero relation to GF or any of its members, I want to express my support of this endeavor. The ability to come up with a scheme on such a grand scale deserves to be lauded, not punished.
In my eyes, the appeal of EVE is that it allows you to beat others to the "top" in so many different way. Do you want to be the king or the peasant? You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it, and that is what should separate EVE from the competition. Events like this actually bring me back into the game in hopes that I can someday be a space trillionaire. I'm sure that I am not alone in feeling that way.
Assets were gained legitimately, and should remain in their wallets/vaults/fortresses.
Oh we are lauding alright. It's all this pubbie mess right here that can't understand the diabolical genius behind it. . |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
143
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:47:00 -
[1789] - Quote
lol @ this thread, ego ************
I'm an American, English is my second language... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
470
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:47:00 -
[1790] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Makes me wonder why there are removing other assets outside of the faction warfare ones... RMT much little goonies? Other assets removed were datacores Aryth had purchased prior to any of this starting. CCP can't tell the difference between datacores purchased prior to this and datacores that came from the LP store. Shocking, right? CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:48:00 -
[1791] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Ok so then before you you walked through the open door you heard that they had been warned that this could happen, but did it anyway ??
Look it was some clever ****, but you had to know the cr*p was going to fly ?
Tal
thank you for your opinion ex-ASCN guy a rogue goon |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:51:00 -
[1792] - Quote
Quote:A game mechanic is legal as long as it's not labeled an exploit.
And CCP reserves the right to do anything they want to your account at any time for any reason, just like every game EULA.
The same people crying in this thread are the same people telling me CCP will never enforce said rule in other threads.
Quote:'cause when the fry dies down what the **** you gonna do Damn it feels good to be a gangsta
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:51:00 -
[1793] - Quote
Paint CCP also did nothing about the trillions (with a 'T') isk worth of profit BoB and their CCP allies made off the BPOs, 'player' events, etc.[/quote wrote:
True they never took away all the motherships that Bob/some others exploited out of the those events before they sacked all those player gms either did they.
Are you saying that CCP adapted? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
374
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:52:00 -
[1794] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal People DID tell CCP. That is the point. Ok so then before you you walked through the open door you heard that they had been warned that this could happen, but did it anyway ?? Look it was some clever ****, but you had to know the cr*p was going to fly ? Tal
No, we didn't. As far as we were concerned, this was a rah-rah thing for the EVE storyline in general, with no long term damage to EVE. Everything about the plan revolved around that. So no, we didn't think anything would be flying. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:52:00 -
[1795] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:A game mechanic is legal as long as it's not labeled an exploit. And CCP reserves the right to do anything they want to your account at any time for any reason, just like every game EULA. The same people crying in this thread are the same people telling me CCP will never enforce said rule in other threads. "Then they came for me, and nobody was left to speak up for me." a rogue goon |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
476
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:53:00 -
[1796] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Ok so then before you you walked through the open door you heard that they had been warned that this could happen, but did it anyway ??
Look it was some clever ****, but you had to know the cr*p was going to fly ?
Tal
thank you for your opinion ex-ASCN guy
Ex who ? what's that got to do with the price of eggs, oh knows, the guy that was part of a corp that was allied with with some forgotten Alliance has an opinion, woe is me, apart form the fact you just described half of Eve
Tal
|
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:54:00 -
[1797] - Quote
Loads of money |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:55:00 -
[1798] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Makes me wonder why there are removing other assets outside of the faction warfare ones... RMT much little goonies?
[Citation Needed]
Read the new forum rules, thanks. No rumors. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:57:00 -
[1799] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:A game mechanic is legal as long as it's not labeled an exploit. And CCP reserves the right to do anything they want to your account at any time for any reason, just like every game EULA. The same people crying in this thread are the same people telling me CCP will never enforce said rule in other threads. "Then they came for me, and nobody was left to speak up for me." ~ sun tzu
The difference of course is that you bitches never spoke for me. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:58:00 -
[1800] - Quote
Haquer wrote:Better Than You wrote:Makes me wonder why there are removing other assets outside of the faction warfare ones... RMT much little goonies? [Citation Needed] Read the new forum rules, thanks. No rumors. that rule only applies to goon posts Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
|
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
819
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:58:00 -
[1801] - Quote
I appreciate the pace of Goon operations this year.
Can you imagine an EvE where there was more than one alliance actually doing stuff in this game?
Just sayin'.. ya'all alliance heads slackin'.
|
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:58:00 -
[1802] - Quote
Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended.
In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP.
Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1572
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:02:00 -
[1803] - Quote
Django Returns wrote:Where is your Sandbox now fanbois??
IF goons made a fortune by using their brains and free market, CCP should have no right to take ISK away. CCP would become pathetic and a joke...!
Bumping freighters on undock while webifying them is also considered exploitative behaviour but will be difficult to fix. It really is quite simple: some things in the game are broken due to design. It is up to the players to recognize that some mechanisms are broken, and not dive into those broken mechanics.
Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
Landree
Mega Ore Extraction
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:04:00 -
[1804] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Django Returns wrote:Where is your Sandbox now fanbois??
IF goons made a fortune by using their brains and free market, CCP should have no right to take ISK away. CCP would become pathetic and a joke...! Bumping freighters on undock while webifying them is also considered exploitative behaviour but will be difficult to fix. It really is quite simple: some things in the game are broken due to design. It is up to the players to recognize that some mechanisms are broken, and not dive into those broken mechanics.
This is complete junk. Bumping something while webbing it is not an exploit and have been specifically okay'd by CCP. ~10,058 |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:04:00 -
[1805] - Quote
Did the sandbox just get filled with used condoms? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
377
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:04:00 -
[1806] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended. In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP. Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time.
This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much.
We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
478
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:06:00 -
[1807] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal People DID tell CCP. That is the point. Ok so then before you you walked through the open door you heard that they had been warned that this could happen, but did it anyway ?? Look it was some clever ****, but you had to know the cr*p was going to fly ? Tal No, we didn't. As far as we were concerned, this was a rah-rah thing for the EVE storyline in general, with no long term damage to EVE. Everything about the plan revolved around that. So no, we didn't think anything would be flying.
Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.
Tal
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:07:00 -
[1808] - Quote
Landree wrote:This is complete junk. Bumping something while webbing it is not an exploit and have been specifically okay'd by CCP.
he's talking about the triple-web Vindicator trick, it has nothing to do with bumping a rogue goon |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
377
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:09:00 -
[1809] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.
Tal
I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me. |
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:13:00 -
[1810] - Quote
For some reason the end of a Pinky and The Brain episode comes to mind.
Well, tomorrow's another day.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
|
Caras Manchur
Dvice Shipyards
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:16:00 -
[1811] - Quote
Oh, Aryth.
When Mittens made you his sock puppet, did he give you bright little button eyes and a mop of floppy red yard for hair?
And when he takes you off his hand at the end of the day, and puts you back in the drawer with all the other empty little sock puppets, is it sad and lonely?
It's OK, Poo Bear. It's OK.
Sorry to say, Aryth, you are beeing herded, i'm sure you didnt knew and didnt see it, but nevertheless ! Maybe next time, find some thing really usefull for evekind and invest your brilliance into that ! And another advice, try to scale beyond the goons-sphere , good luck :-) |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Hades.
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:18:00 -
[1812] - Quote
Jonni Favorite wrote:Or the case of a travelling salesman with a gun license in Indiana trying to check in his weapon at a convention in NY. He is now facing a gun charge. Goes to show it's better to apologize later than ask permission.. LOL.
I don't know anybody with a gun license who thinks it's valid interstate. If the gun is in the trunk or in a locked case, no problems pretty much anywhere you go. On your person or in the glove compartment... another issue.
Now in Philadelphia you can quite easily get a carry permit. And quite easily take the offramp into Trenton NJ by accident, with no possibility of going anywhere but New Jersey unless you turn around and drive the wrong way on the interstate. And get pulled over by a Trenton cop and get booked with a felony.
That being said... nobody I know. I'm sure some people think a Montana carry permit means they can bring their 9mm in their carry-on through TSA on a civilian airliner. http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/1579/1917_fe03.gif |
Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:18:00 -
[1813] - Quote
Caras Manchur wrote:Oh, Aryth.
When Mittens made you his sock puppet, did he give you bright little button eyes and a mop of floppy red yard for hair?
And when he takes you off his hand at the end of the day, and puts you back in the drawer with all the other empty little sock puppets, is it sad and lonely?
It's OK, Poo Bear. It's OK.
Sorry to say, Aryth, you are beeing herded, i'm sure you didnt knew and didnt see it, but nevertheless ! Maybe next time, find some thing really usefull for evekind and invest your brilliance into that ! And another advice, try to scale beyond the goons-sphere , good luck :-)
Seriously when you next think about posting don't bother. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
478
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:18:00 -
[1814] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.
Tal
I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me.
I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this.
Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly.
Tal |
Laphroaig Talisker
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:19:00 -
[1815] - Quote
Quote: I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me.
I guess it's their new girlfriend: Sony... you know, that hot-but-bitchy girlfriend who tells you to get a haircut, tuck your shirt in and stop hanging out with your friends? |
Lord Zim
915
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:19:00 -
[1816] - Quote
Caras Manchur wrote:When Mittens made you his sock puppet ahahahahahaha |
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:20:00 -
[1817] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.
Tal
I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me. I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this. Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly. Tal
i take it you are new to the faction warfare |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
28
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:21:00 -
[1818] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Inspiration wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended. In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP. Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time. This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much. We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP.
Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:
This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back! And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC. It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.
Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox! Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!
It really is that simple!
|
Lord Zim
915
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:21:00 -
[1819] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this.
Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly. I'd be, um. "Highly surprised." |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
478
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:23:00 -
[1820] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this.
Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly. I'd be, um. "Highly surprised."
I could be wrong , do you ever sleep.
Tal
|
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
377
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:24:00 -
[1821] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:Inspiration wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended. In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP. Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time. This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much. We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP. Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too: This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back! And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC. It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process. Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox! Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose! It really is that simple!
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.
That is why it is content. |
Lord Zim
915
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:24:00 -
[1822] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:I could be wrong , do you ever sleep. No.
Kneel before Zim. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:27:00 -
[1823] - Quote
sleeping is literally the least productive use of your time a rogue goon |
Alyth
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:27:00 -
[1824] - Quote
BTW Aryth, you totally forgot to send your Japanese alt Alyth some spacebux. Please do so, tyia. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
527
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:28:00 -
[1825] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP. .
And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
377
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:30:00 -
[1826] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Seeing as everyone knows Goons control CCP these days it was only natural that as part of our secret deep-cover plot to destroy Eve we'd get them to do it for us in the end.
Stoffer got a damn good headstart on that with the Greed is Good? newletter. I started a thread in his honor at the time. |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:30:00 -
[1827] - Quote
Why isn't anyone at CCP answering the Goonphone? It just keeps buzzing. |
SeaBassSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:31:00 -
[1828] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Aryth wrote:I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP. . And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox.
Or Sony vs CCP/Sandbox/Goons
|
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
478
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:34:00 -
[1829] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:sleeping is literally the least productive use of your time
Well, I'm off to be really unproductive, unless of course I have "THAT" dream again, then I might get a little productive, well see.
by the way I found this Angelina Jolie in your dreams site, while doing some in depth research for this post and found the following
Angelina Jolie in your dreams
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH deep breath HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Wipes tear from eye, nn
Tal
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:34:00 -
[1830] - Quote
SeaBassSA wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:Aryth wrote:I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP. . And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox. Or Sony vs CCP/Sandbox/Goons
It is a bit odd now that CCP is dressing up in it's best thigh highs and C-string for Sony that all this anti-PVP nonsense has started up. |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
895
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:35:00 -
[1831] - Quote
SeaBassSA wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:Aryth wrote:I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP. . And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox. Or Sony vs CCP/Sandbox/Goons Sony doesn't make 4x4's, come on... He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Russell Casey
Goldbug Inc.
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:35:00 -
[1832] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal People DID tell CCP before it was released in another thread. That is the point.
They also told them Incarna was going to be a shitstorm months in advance. I still remember Hilmar's famous "judge them by what they do not what they say" response. |
Cybarite
YARRRDIES Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:36:00 -
[1833] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:Inspiration wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended. In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP. Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time. This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much. We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP. Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too: This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back! And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC. It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process. Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox! Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose! It really is that simple! so what you're getting at, is that you don't know what logic is? |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
249
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:37:00 -
[1834] - Quote
Caras Manchur wrote:Oh, Aryth.
When Mittens made you his sock puppet, did he give you bright little button eyes and a mop of floppy red yard for hair?
And when he takes you off his hand at the end of the day, and puts you back in the drawer with all the other empty little sock puppets, is it sad and lonely?
It's OK, Poo Bear. It's OK.
Sorry to say, Aryth, you are beeing herded, i'm sure you didnt knew and didnt see it, but nevertheless ! Maybe next time, find some thing really usefull for evekind and invest your brilliance into that ! And another advice, try to scale beyond the goons-sphere , good luck :-)
lol at sock puppet
On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:37:00 -
[1835] - Quote
CCP and Sony are secretly working to kill Eve. Eve is dead. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
378
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:38:00 -
[1836] - Quote
Russell Casey wrote:Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal People DID tell CCP before it was released in another thread. That is the point. They also told them Incarna was going to be a shitstorm months in advance. I still remember Hilmar's famous "judge them by what they do not what they say" response.
Indeed. It would be nice of them even to say something given they are going around seizing assets and not even doing so in a consistent fair manner. Until then we can only judge them by their actions.
|
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:39:00 -
[1837] - Quote
Holy Alcapurrias! 92 pages in one day. I haven'r seen this post count since warp-2-zero. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:41:00 -
[1838] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Inspiration wrote:
Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:
This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back! And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC. It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.
Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox! Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!
It really is that simple!
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP. That is why it is content.
+1 Inspiration
And this is probably why "Burn Jita" earns praises while this caused CCP to kick sand in your face. It's content, but it's not interesting for CCP, it's embarrassing. Your actions should be against other players, not the sandbox nor CCP. And while you did profit from players, you used illegitimate means to get there, not to mention screwing with players directly by breaking faction warfare while you did all this.
And how can you say this wasn't against CCP when more then half the posts seem to target CCP directly.
I'll paraphrase:
- We told CCP, they didn't listen so they got what was coming to them
- The devs are terribad. They couldn't code themselves into their own function calls.
- etc etc etc
Hell, one of the posts from a goonie attacked the Icelandic heritage in general.
|
Jalon Kaladreel
15 Minute Outliers Novus Dominatum
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:43:00 -
[1839] - Quote
Yet another epic player-made event in the best game around. Kudos to you fine sirs. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2596
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:44:00 -
[1840] - Quote
Where is everyone hearing that CCP is seizing isk or punishing Goons? Chatter in here seems to imply as much, but I haven't seen anything official on it yet. Did I miss a dev post? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
|
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
389
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:45:00 -
[1841] - Quote
I don't really get the claims that it's Goons vs the Sandbox. It's really CCP themselves that are biggest threat to EVE as a Sandbox. Goons just like to **** in other's sand pits and knock over their sandcastles, but I've never seen Goons as anti sandbox gameplay, quite the opposite.
In fact this event or problem really came about because CCP created new content in another pocket of Themepark (Faction Warfare) and it mixed with the truely Sandbox element of EVE (The Market) and CCP lost control of the outcome and are seemingly not too happy about that. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
379
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:45:00 -
[1842] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:Inspiration wrote:
Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:
This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back! And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC. It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.
Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox! Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!
It really is that simple!
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP. That is why it is content. +1 Inspiration And this is probably why "Burn Jita" earns praises while this caused CCP to kick sand in your face. It's content, but it's not interesting for CCP, it's embarrassing. Your actions should be against other players, not the sandbox nor CCP. And while you did profit from players, you used illegitimate means to get there, not to mention screwing with players directly by breaking faction warfare while you did all this. And how can you say this wasn't against CCP when more then half the posts seem to target CCP directly. I'll paraphrase: - We told CCP, they didn't listen so they got what was coming to them - The devs are terribad. They couldn't code themselves into their own function calls. - etc etc etc Hell, one of the posts from a goonie attacked the Icelandic heritage in general.
Because CCP chose an immediately hostile stance. They indicated very quickly they intended to interfere in the sandgox. So people naturally replied with arguments against that stance. Note, I have not once bashed them. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1349
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:47:00 -
[1843] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:sleeping is literally the least productive use of your time I'm gonna disagree and say posting on EVE GD is. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:50:00 -
[1844] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Where is everyone hearing that CCP is seizing isk or punishing Goons? Chatter in here seems to imply as much, but I haven't seen anything official on it yet. Did I miss a dev post?
That thought had occurred to me as well. I'm waiting for one of them to say that they made the whole "CCP ruins the sandbox" up just to troll.
Just when you think are simply fighting the system, you look up and realize you are part of the system. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:51:00 -
[1845] - Quote
Aryth wrote: Because CCP chose an immediately hostile stance. They indicated very quickly they intended to interfere in the sandgox. So people naturally replied with arguments against that stance. Note, I have not once bashed them.
TBH, there's been a lot of good advice for you on this thread if you choose to reflect on it. I guess it depends if you want to adapt or not. |
None ofthe Above
257
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:51:00 -
[1846] - Quote
corestwo wrote:
Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.
And nothing else.
Oh for the love of Chribba...
...never thought I'd see an EVE is dying post from corestwo.
Look you guys that make a lifestyle of trying to push the limits have to realize that occasionally you will step over the line and get smacked.
I realize that all the emo raging about how you've been wronged is part of the "lifestyle", but give it a rest. Seriously it is embarrassing to watch.
Even Aryth talks about how "if you want to ABUSE something don't tell CCP" well, duh! Acknowledge abuse in the same breath as trying to act aggrieved. White hats, my shiny bald head.
I do give you guys some credit for pointing out problems, even as you abuse the bejeezus out of the system, but it's hard to feel sympathy for you guys at this point.
|
DiscomBoBulate
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:59:00 -
[1847] - Quote
I play EVE and not other MMORPG games because I enjoy the sandbox element. If I want to blow up another ship I can. If I want to manipulate the market I figure out a way to do that. These guys look like they figured out a pretty creative way to make isk. Kudos to them. That's what makes this game cool. It's not an exploit.
CCP knew about the potential issue, they should not punish a customer for using the game they designed. CCP just didn't believe that anyone would actually invest the time and isk to make it work. Well somebody did. They shouldn't be punished. Let them keep the isk. They earned it. This is what happens when your playerbase knows more about the game than the developers.
If CCP wants to kill this game they will continue to punish people for being creative. If CCP doesn't like the result fix the mechanic and move forward. No need to punish a player for being creative....which is what the whole sandbox is about.
No rules were broken. Let them keep their spoils. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:01:00 -
[1848] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here. Thats funny the 1st 4 pages of this thread was a circle jerk of Goon members congratulating each other on how Goons have done it again, Now the **** has hit the fan its, "oh nothing to do with the general Goon membership" When did the huge distinction appear ? Poor attempt at spin, no use trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted. Goons to CCP "we aren't trying to ruin the game just your game" Tal
Alright, fine, ban all goons, then. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:04:00 -
[1849] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:When did the huge distinction appear ? At the very beginning. Unless everyone else who slow-clapped in this thread is also involved. Also the **** didn't "hit the fan" when the NPC alts started wagging their fingers at the "general membership." Nope I saw 4 or 5 pages of Goons jerking off over this, not allot of NPC alts till CCP came in to comment . Tal
And that makes them complicit? I had nothing to do with this. Mind you, had I known about it, I absolutely would have done it, and if another opportunity like this one pops up and I'm aware of it in enough time to prepare, I'll probably get involved in that too.
Yes, I think this was awesome, and I support the people who did it. Explain why that means every goon in the game should be banned for what this small number of goons did. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Angelina The Red
Giant's Well
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:05:00 -
[1850] - Quote
Well this was an exploit, but anyone could have seen it coming. If I was CCP, I wouldn't ban anyone, just take most of the ISK (90%) and fix the broken mechanics. Leave them some money, because after all they did do all the work, it just shouldn't have netted them so much ISK. Besides people are going to keep doing this, just in different forms.
Anyways, gratz for being pro at EVE. Any chance that you could use some of that intellectual capital and work ethic to make the real world a better place instead of wrecking a virtual one? Just a thought. |
|
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
393
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:06:00 -
[1851] - Quote
When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:07:00 -
[1852] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Yes, I think this was awesome, and I support the people who did it. Explain why that means every goon in the game should be banned for what this small number of goons did. Because ban all goons.
What, are you some kind of goon alt? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
379
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:09:00 -
[1853] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad.
The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:10:00 -
[1854] - Quote
ITT: Goons pick up cash spitting out of a broken ATM while filling the Complaint Box with complaints about ATMs spitting out cash. Goons have their assets seized when bank discovers the error. Goons then complain about the unheeded complaints in the complaint box.
Complaint about the Complaint Box? Delicious. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:10:00 -
[1855] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad. The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. They want to make it "CCP vs goons" so that CCP can win eve for them. Not like the GD whiners can beat us up otherwise. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
DiscomBoBulate
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:12:00 -
[1856] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad.
CCP developers make fools of themselves. Then they make bigger fools of themselves by letting their ego's direct their actions. How's the saying go? You can't cure stupid?
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1405
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:13:00 -
[1857] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. No one from Goldman Sachs went to prison.
Because well dressed thieves run banks. Bad dressed thieves and terrorists run in prison. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:14:00 -
[1858] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote: We'd be much more convinced of your 'best intentions' if they figoured out the exploit and immediately informed CCP.
They did. This has been mentioned quite a few times, but it doesn't fit the narrative of "Goons want to destroy Eve", so people like you just gloss over it and pretend it doesn't exist. I think you honestly believe if you don't believe it, it ceases to be true.
CCP was warned, quite some time ago, and didn't care. They didn't perceive it to be a problem, and made that quite clear. Their response now is just one borne of embarrassment. They were called out on bad design, ignored it, and got burned on it. If they thought this was such a huge issue, they should have fixed it, or at least not dismissed it as not being a problem. Punishing anyone for using it is massive bullshit, because it was brought to their attention, and they gave no indication that it was unintended at all. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
282
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:16:00 -
[1859] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad. The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. So what have CCP done to you so far? EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:18:00 -
[1860] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Skippermonkey wrote: We'd be much more convinced of your 'best intentions' if they figoured out the exploit and immediately informed CCP.
They did. This has been mentioned quite a few times, but it doesn't fit the narrative of "Goons want to destroy Eve", so people like you just gloss over it and pretend it doesn't exist. I think you honestly believe if you don't believe it, it ceases to be true. CCP was warned, quite some time ago, and didn't care. They didn't perceive it to be a problem, and made that quite clear. Their response now is just one borne of embarrassment. They were called out on bad design, ignored it, and got burned on it. If they thought this was such a huge issue, they should have fixed it, or at least not dismissed it as not being a problem. Punishing anyone for using it is massive bullshit, because it was brought to their attention, and they gave no indication that it was unintended at all. It was working as intended until ... well, we can see what happened. Then it became unintended. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Lord Ryan
Quantum Cats Syndicate
533
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:18:00 -
[1861] - Quote
Geertruida Zelle wrote:ok, some enterprising Goons did some homework and found a loophole and made some isk.- they didn't break the "law", they found a "legal loophole" and used it to their advantage.
Now its fine that CCP fix the loophole, but random seizure of assets is a step too far.
Shame on you CCP, you have done another poop in your own Sandpit.
^this -á"Nerf it cause I can't fly it". I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:19:00 -
[1862] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Aryth wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad. The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. So what have CCP done to you so far?
Seized anything remotely LP store relayed. Zeroed out LP stores. Even though some of the assets we had were of the same type. So they seized items not even related to the FW issue. To go further, they didn't even do it in a consistent manner, making it even wierder. I am not sure what the trigger was besides wealth confiscation. |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
177
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:19:00 -
[1863] - Quote
i feel bad for ccp. it must be terribly hard having goons come up with the interesting content and press for them all the time; no wonder they wanted to restrict it. goons attract more new players to eve and get more column inches than ccp would ever do on its own. goons actively affect the game in ways no other group possibly could and generate more outside interest than any model update or additional module would.
goons are actively more important for the game than ccp and i imagine it must be quite sad to know this if you work for them. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:22:00 -
[1864] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: They want to make it "CCP vs goons" so that CCP can win eve for them. Not like the GD whiners can beat us up otherwise.
Yes, yes that's it. |
Zilero
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:23:00 -
[1865] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
Well, you had to be REALLY smug about it all didn't you? Nothing good ever came from being smug, it always has consequences. These are yours.
|
None ofthe Above
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:24:00 -
[1866] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad. The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets.
Alavaria Fera wrote: They want to make it "CCP vs goons" so that CCP can win eve for them. Not like the GD whiners can beat us up otherwise.
You guys take a deep breath, try to step outside yourself. Forget you who you are for a moment and reread the OP and the start of the thread. Then ask yourself who made it CCP vs Goons (or perhaps Goons vs CCP).
GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥ CCP this, CCP that. This wasn't an op against miners or roleplaying pubbies. You were playing against the hosts of the game.
This wasn't burn Jita, this was burn CCP. You poked them in the eye and dared them to poke back.
Well guess what?
Again impressive work, but you raised your spear against the gods in a storm and got hit by lightning. Karma is a biatch.
|
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:24:00 -
[1867] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: It was working as intended until ... well, we can see what happened. Then it became unintended.
That happens when you play with fire. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:26:00 -
[1868] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: It was working as intended until ... well, we can see what happened. Then it became unintended.
That happens when you play with fire.
I wouldn't really call 5T a fire. More like a BIC lighter. |
Lord Ryan
Quantum Cats Syndicate
533
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:27:00 -
[1869] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
So you screwed up and now you're retaliating? Nice! -á"Nerf it cause I can't fly it". I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:28:00 -
[1870] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: It was working as intended until ... well, we can see what happened. Then it became unintended.
That happens when you play with fire. I wouldn't really call 5T a fire. More like a BIC lighter. Sure burns? |
|
Burzrujat
Natural Talent
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:29:00 -
[1871] - Quote
Well I guess I'll post my opinion also, seeing as all the cool kids are doing it.
This was a clever scheme and it has been entertaining to spectate, however I don't think the unintended effects of the LP changes should of been abused for personal profit. And hey, you were successful in your apparent goal to create content, so you should be pleased. If your goal was to create content, you should not be so upset over losing the ISK. If your plan was to profit from it and then later post a sickening gloat thread and wave your e-peen around while CCP congratulated you on exploiting unintended effects of a poorly designed mechanic... well I can see why you would be upset over the outcome.
Thanks for the entertainment though. |
Nicholas Tong
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:30:00 -
[1872] - Quote
Good read, I almost Snip. Don't use ethnic stereotype slurs. -Guard bal myself from laughing. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
224
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:30:00 -
[1873] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. So you screwed up and now you're retaliating? Nice! Going back to the analogy, when a bank makes a mistake do the just write it off? No, they go after the money wherever it went, and after the person should it have been spent and not able to be returned. How would this be any different? |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:31:00 -
[1874] - Quote
Burzrujat wrote:Well I guess I'll post my opinion also, seeing as all the cool kids are doing it. This was a clever scheme and it has been entertaining to spectate, however I don't think the unintended effects of the LP changes should of been abused for personal profit. And hey, you were successful in your apparent goal to create content, so you should be pleased. If your goal was to create content, you should not be so upset over losing the ISK. If your plan was to profit from it and then later post a sickening gloat thread and wave your e-peen around while CCP congratulated you on exploiting unintended effects of a poorly designed mechanic... well I can see why you would be upset over the outcome. Thanks for the entertainment though. If you read what the people who were involved actually posted, they aren't upset about losing the ISK they made from the alleged FW exploit, they're upset that CCP went at it in the most hamfisted way and just nuked everything that looked like it MIGHT have come from the LP store, regardless how it was acquired. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
283
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:31:00 -
[1875] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Aryth wrote:The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. So what have CCP done to you so far? Seized anything remotely LP store relayed. Zeroed out LP stores. Even though some of the assets we had were of the same type. So they seized items not even related to the FW issue. To go further, they didn't even do it in a consistent manner, making it even wierder. I am not sure what the trigger was besides wealth confiscation. This sandpit just - took a turn for the douche.
So blind anger and retribution for a flawed game mechanic they knew about. The dev post in this thread reminded my of the post Incarna lash out. An embarrassed CCP usually react in ways they soon regret.
I think it's clear what kind of theme park CCP want to run now. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:35:00 -
[1876] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote: If you read what the people who were involved actually posted, they aren't upset about losing the ISK they made from the alleged FW exploit, they're upset that CCP went at it in the most hamfisted way and just nuked everything that looked like it MIGHT have come from the LP store, regardless how it was acquired.
Then again, we have no proof anything was taken by CCP. All we have is the word of a player, and we all know not to trust anyone in Eve. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:36:00 -
[1877] - Quote
So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:36:00 -
[1878] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Aryth wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Aryth wrote:The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. So what have CCP done to you so far? Seized anything remotely LP store relayed. Zeroed out LP stores. Even though some of the assets we had were of the same type. So they seized items not even related to the FW issue. To go further, they didn't even do it in a consistent manner, making it even wierder. I am not sure what the trigger was besides wealth confiscation. This sandpit just - took a turn for the douche. So blind anger and retribution for a flawed game mechanic they knew about. The dev post in this thread reminded my of the post Incarna lash out. An embarrassed CCP usually react in ways they soon regret. I think it's clear what kind of theme park CCP want to run now.
That is what is the most troubling about this. No way I thought this was coming. This was way inbounds to us.
I will be attending a wedding tomorrow, so gone pretty much the entire day and most of Sunday. So I will follow the thread when I can, but am waiting to see what their devblog says. This runs contrary to everything we thought so I am very curious to see their official stance. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:38:00 -
[1879] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'. Oh so five or so people can get all of us banned.
I love the way you think, naughty naughty goons <3 <3 Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:38:00 -
[1880] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:41:00 -
[1881] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
They took my PAX profits I rolled into it too! Oh the humanity |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:41:00 -
[1882] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too Love me some Pax Amarria :) Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:45:00 -
[1883] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
This.
It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them
"Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
381
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:48:00 -
[1884] - Quote
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too This. It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Anyone who wants the sandbox to allow manipulation at this scale should be appalled at the direction this is heading. I want to wait for the CCP statement but this is looking very dark. Especially given this article
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=is&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvisir.is%2Fmisnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum%2Farticle%2F2012120629638&act=url]
Where CCP basically states this is a-ok? Now I am even more confused |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:48:00 -
[1885] - Quote
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote: "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:51:00 -
[1886] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail. And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how? Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
381
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:53:00 -
[1887] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote: "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail.
We went out of our way to avoid that outcome. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:54:00 -
[1888] - Quote
Well played goons.
I love the whole datacore bit.
One question though. Why did you bother with amarr lp at all?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
283
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:56:00 -
[1889] - Quote
Aryth wrote:That is what is the most troubling about this. No way I thought this was coming. This was way inbounds to us.
I will be attending a wedding tomorrow, so gone pretty much the entire day and most of Sunday. So I will follow the thread when I can, but am waiting to see what their devblog says. This runs contrary to everything we thought so I am very curious to see their official stance. I imagine it would have been clear once you read this:CCP Sreegs wrote:By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. The underlying anger of being outplayed is evident.
And the fact that an "investigation" seems to be merely lip service to the stated pre-determined outcome.
If CCP are going to come out and say this kind of thing they need to back it up with reasons as to why. Will any analysis or findings be made public? With respect Aryth I'd like to see CCP numbers as well.
However, MORE importantly. Where is the damned CSM? Isn't this kind of issue right up their alley. If you can accept what has been said and done so far as fact CCP have decided that EVE is no longer a sandbox, but a theme park where the boundaries are set by their own tolerance levels for corporate embarrassment. How can anyone push the limits of what is possible in the game with that kind of indistinct constraint.
Particularly one where once crossed the response is spiteful and judgemental as evidenced by CCP Sreegs' comment.
Why is the CSM being silent on this?
Turning the EVE sandpit into a theme park seems more important than pants. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
381
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 00:57:00 -
[1890] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Well played goons.
I love the whole datacore bit.
One question though. Why did you bother with amarr lp at all?
Needed liquidity. Amarr faction ships presented a fast route to capital. We were trying to avoid HULKSMASH on everything in site. So we spread out the ISK as wide as possible. Ammo/Skillbooks/Faction ships/ Implants etc. Across multiple factions. We spider webbed across all of FW with Minmatar as the launching pad. |
|
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:02:00 -
[1891] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote: "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail.
Large transfers of wealth and/or manipulation of markets is common place IRL. The sky isn't falling on wallstreet and so much isk $ has been thrown in the fireplace.
The landscape certainly changes, and power shifts. Welcome to the last 10k years of human history. Eve might be better off to stop piddling with the vapid NPC story lines and weave more of the player corps into the story line. Events like this are a reminder that their creation is possessed by a will of it's own. That will being active players.
We're loud, we're proud, deal with it. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:02:00 -
[1892] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail. And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how?
Ok, let me explain then: You rigged both PvP and PvE on a grand scale. Effectively, you successfully ruined the game for thousands of players more than you could have ever hoped to have actually fought in a conventional contest of wealth or military power via exploits and loopholes.
While I congratulate you on your inventiveness, I might point out that while goons policy is to drink the tears of other players, effectively trying to destroy EvE is ultimately counter productive, and if kept up, CCP will have to bring down the hammer on you.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
381
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:03:00 -
[1893] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail. And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how? Ok, let me explain then: You rigged both PvP and PvE on a grand scale. Effectively, you successfully ruined the game for thousands of players more than you could have ever hoped to have actually fought in a conventional contest of wealth or military power via exploits and loopholes. While I congratulate you on your inventiveness, I might point out that while goons policy is to drink the tears of other players, effectively trying to destroy EvE is ultimately counter productive, and if kept up, CCP will have to bring down the hammer on you.
I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key.
Another pcgamer article from the PR guy.
PCGamer |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
820
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:04:00 -
[1894] - Quote
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too This. It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Bullshit.
Who got banned for PI changes?
Who got banned for Pax Amarria?
I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone?
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:05:00 -
[1895] - Quote
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:
Large transfers of wealth and/or manipulation of markets is common place IRL. The sky isn't falling on wallstreet and so much isk $ has been thrown in the fireplace.
Preceptor: again, I think maybe you might have missed some things since that's pretty much exactly why the sky is and has been falling on Wall Street, actually....
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:06:00 -
[1896] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too This. It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't. Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone?
Again, you guys aren't even giving good examples. Removing the t2 lottery and leaving those bpo in game has allowed the players who own them to print 100s of trillions of isk over the years and they are still at it.
|
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:07:00 -
[1897] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone? Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:09:00 -
[1898] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key. Another pcgamer article from the PR guy. PCGamer
I particularly love this part:
"On the other hand I worry that some players donGÇÖt see it that way, that they donGÇÖt understand they are capable of matching GoonswarmGÇÖs (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVEGÇÖs history, arenGÇÖt laser-proof. T"
How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
240
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:11:00 -
[1899] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:sabre906 wrote:tl;dr Goon drama nope
how can that be nope...? [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:12:00 -
[1900] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Aryth wrote:I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key. Another pcgamer article from the PR guy. PCGamer I particularly love this part: "On the other hand I worry that some players donGÇÖt see it that way, that they donGÇÖt understand they are capable of matching GoonswarmGÇÖs (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVEGÇÖs history, arenGÇÖt laser-proof. T" How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.
|
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:12:00 -
[1901] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote: Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' .
You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:14:00 -
[1902] - Quote
Paint wrote: You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.
Sorry, after dozens of pages of goons patting themselves on the back, and then goons screaming about their toys being taken away, I decided not to read then entire 94 page thread.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:15:00 -
[1903] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm.
You idiot, no goons where involved in that. Second, that was an actual duplication exploit/exploit where they were creating goo from nothing. |
kyrieee
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:15:00 -
[1904] - Quote
I do enjoy rivers of tears, but I think it's important for the integrity of the sandbox that these sorts of things aren't reprimanded. EVE isn't a game where the players have to fear the banhammer for scamming, metagaming, ganking or being clever and using certain game mechanics in unintended ways. CCP not interfering is important, and quite frankly the problem was with their design of the system, not a bug in the implementation that was exploited. |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:16:00 -
[1905] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . . The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples. And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:16:00 -
[1906] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.
Sorry, after dozens of pages of goons patting themselves on the back, and then goons screaming about their toys being taken away, I decided not to read then entire 94 page thread.
That was obvious. It was also obvious you didn't even read the posts on the same page that listed examples. ACES
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
934
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:20:00 -
[1907] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
You'll note that CCP is not calling this an exploit, and in interviews so far they are very carefully not calling it an exploit. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
283
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:20:00 -
[1908] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm. The difference with the Moon Goo is that something was magically created. It was not a mechanic.
When you are creating items/capability out of thin air you are exploiting a bug.
When you are making wealth by stressing a poorly designed game mechanic you are exploiting CCP hubris.
It is an important difference. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:22:00 -
[1909] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Aryth wrote:I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key. Another pcgamer article from the PR guy. PCGamer I particularly love this part: "On the other hand I worry that some players donGÇÖt see it that way, that they donGÇÖt understand they are capable of matching GoonswarmGÇÖs (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVEGÇÖs history, arenGÇÖt laser-proof. T" How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Pretty easily. Speculate on patches. That is what we do. This isn't the first multi-trillion hit we have landed on a patch. |
Simon Page
Page Capital
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:22:00 -
[1910] - Quote
Welp: http://www.pcgamesn.com/eve/ccp-respond-goonswarm-eve-heist-goons-arent-laserproof
It's been confirmed that each Goonswarm member did, indeed get 100bn isk from the exploit as rumored. CCP probably hasn't done anything about it yet because of the sheer number of people involved, but I hope they don't confine their confiscations to the 'Jewbal'... |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:23:00 -
[1911] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote: The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples. And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok?
I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:23:00 -
[1912] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.
While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm. The difference with the Moon Goo is that something was magically created. It was not a mechanic. When you are creating items/capability out of thin air you are exploiting a bug. When you are making wealth by stressing a poorly designed game mechanic you are exploiting CCP hubris. It is an important difference.
You just don't get it. Spending a lot of time and effort figuring out how to buy cheap and sell dear was never intended to be supported by the eve market or mechanics.
OH WAIT.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:24:00 -
[1913] - Quote
Another article http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/06/22/eve-players-loot-new-in-game-system-for-unheard-of-wealth-troll-everyone.aspx
CCP is getting a lot of press from this. Looks pretty positive too. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:25:00 -
[1914] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
the risk is CCP not being happy with it and seizing it
or, you know, the plan failing entirely because this isn't the same as mission running a rogue goon |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[1915] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples. And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok? I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.
The ferrogel dupe was an obvious bug. You had a CCP published # for how much crap your silos shoulda been getting per month/hr.
Combining mechanics to make something new is not a bug. Generating material out of thin air is. We never generated anything out of thin air, everything had a cost. It was just heavily discounted compared to what we could profit. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[1916] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples. And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok? I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.
Only if you use the part of the definition in the dictionary that defines exploit as a bold or daring feat. No bug was taken advantage of here. This was strictly market analysis. You haven't the faintest clue of what you are talking about.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1107
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[1917] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. the risk is CCP not being happy with it and seizing it or, you know, the plan failing entirely because this isn't the same as mission running I'd hardly try to claim it was riskless Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[1918] - Quote
From This interview:
http://visir.is/misnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum/article/2012120629638
Quote:Spur+¦ur hvort spilararnir ++urfi a+¦ takast +í vi+¦ einhverjar aflei+¦ingar vegna m+ílsins svarar P+¬tur: GÇPT+ªknilega s+¬+¦ voru ++eir ekki a+¦ gera neitt sem var banna+¦. +Pannig ++a+¦ er +¦lj+¦st hva+¦ ver+¦ur gert."
P+¬tur segir spilarana hafa einfaldlega n++tt s+¬r glufu innan leiksins, GÇPog er +¡ raun t++p+¡skt fyrir EVE spilara. +Pa+¦ eru oft +¦tr+¦lega greindir n+íungar a+¦ spila leikinn. +Pa+¦ er frekar a+¦ ++a+¦ s+¬ borin vir+¦ing fyrir hugvitsseminni h+¬r innan h+¦ss," segir P+¬tur a+¦ lokum.
Or, in English:
Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end.
CCP official: Goon Market Manipulation NOT against the rules, and NOT an exploit.
Tinfoil hat wearing pubbies, your comments?
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:27:00 -
[1919] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples. And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok? I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision. The ferrogel dupe was an obvious bug. You had a CCP published # for how much crap your silos shoulda been getting per month/hr. Combining mechanics to make something new is not a bug. Generating material out of thin air is. We never generated anything out of thin air, everything had a cost. It was just heavily discounted compared to what we could profit.
The best part is the various moon goo dupes back in the day went on for months before anything was done (it might have even been years, much like some of the complex bugs). |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:28:00 -
[1920] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:29:00 -
[1921] - Quote
google translate owns a rogue goon |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:31:00 -
[1922] - Quote
Paint wrote: The best part is the various moon goo dupes back in the day went on for months before anything was done (it might have even been years, much like some of the complex bugs).
4-5 years, IIRC. As well both your alliance and BoB knew.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:31:00 -
[1923] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Aryth wrote:I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key. Another pcgamer article from the PR guy. PCGamer I particularly love this part: "On the other hand I worry that some players donGÇÖt see it that way, that they donGÇÖt understand they are capable of matching GoonswarmGÇÖs (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVEGÇÖs history, arenGÇÖt laser-proof. T" How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. Pretty easily. Speculate on patches. That is what we do. This isn't the first multi-trillion hit we have landed on a patch.
That is why Dev Blogs and Patch notes are the true gold in Eve Online.
Pre Tyrannis: PI materials research Pre Incursions: Snasha drop research Pre Incarna: Plex pricing research Pre Inferno: Faction Warfare research
This is a quick list with little thought from recent patches - there are myriads of options for speculation every patch. Any individual who claims to really "play" Eve Online should be up to date with upcoming changes and run their own testing on Sisi.
If the Goons involved n this particular patch speculation are "punished" then CCP are changing a precedent that has been utilised on every patch released since I started playing this game. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:32:00 -
[1924] - Quote
Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny.
What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:33:00 -
[1925] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: The best part is the various moon goo dupes back in the day went on for months before anything was done (it might have even been years, much like some of the complex bugs).
4-5 years, IIRC. As well both your alliance and BoB knew.
Yes back in the syndicate days when goons were space rich with our own complexes and Ferogel moons right?
How dumb are you?
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:35:00 -
[1926] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.
multibox a rogue goon |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
283
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:36:00 -
[1927] - Quote
Xython wrote:From This interview: http://visir.is/misnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum/article/2012120629638Quote:Spur+¦ur hvort spilararnir ++urfi a+¦ takast +í vi+¦ einhverjar aflei+¦ingar vegna m+ílsins svarar P+¬tur: GÇPT+ªknilega s+¬+¦ voru ++eir ekki a+¦ gera neitt sem var banna+¦. +Pannig ++a+¦ er +¦lj+¦st hva+¦ ver+¦ur gert."
P+¬tur segir spilarana hafa einfaldlega n++tt s+¬r glufu innan leiksins, GÇPog er +¡ raun t++p+¡skt fyrir EVE spilara. +Pa+¦ eru oft +¦tr+¦lega greindir n+íungar a+¦ spila leikinn. +Pa+¦ er frekar a+¦ ++a+¦ s+¬ borin vir+¦ing fyrir hugvitsseminni h+¬r innan h+¦ss," segir P+¬tur a+¦ lokum. Or, in English: Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end. CCP official: Goon Market Manipulation NOT against the rules, and NOT an exploit. Tinfoil hat wearing pubbies, your comments? So any comment on when items will be returned? EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:36:00 -
[1928] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.
multibox
You do realize that to multi-box enough accounts to do it, I might as well just buy the plex and save myself some money, right?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:37:00 -
[1929] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny. What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.
I suggest mining morons. You can get 500m per recruitment scam, easily. If you work hard at it, 100 billion isk in 2 months should be quite easy, that's only 200 marks. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:39:00 -
[1930] - Quote
Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny. What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this. I suggest mining morons. You can get 500m per recruitment scam, easily. If you work hard at it, 100 billion isk in 2 months should be quite easy, that's only 200 marks.
Do you really think he is capable of that? He apparently can't read and has a really bad memory so I doubt even mining is going to work out for him.
|
|
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:39:00 -
[1931] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:RichestPoorest guy in eve, right here.
You got screwed man. Always tomorrow. 07
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:40:00 -
[1932] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Xython wrote:From This interview: http://visir.is/misnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum/article/2012120629638Quote:Spur+¦ur hvort spilararnir ++urfi a+¦ takast +í vi+¦ einhverjar aflei+¦ingar vegna m+ílsins svarar P+¬tur: GÇPT+ªknilega s+¬+¦ voru ++eir ekki a+¦ gera neitt sem var banna+¦. +Pannig ++a+¦ er +¦lj+¦st hva+¦ ver+¦ur gert."
P+¬tur segir spilarana hafa einfaldlega n++tt s+¬r glufu innan leiksins, GÇPog er +¡ raun t++p+¡skt fyrir EVE spilara. +Pa+¦ eru oft +¦tr+¦lega greindir n+íungar a+¦ spila leikinn. +Pa+¦ er frekar a+¦ ++a+¦ s+¬ borin vir+¦ing fyrir hugvitsseminni h+¬r innan h+¦ss," segir P+¬tur a+¦ lokum. Or, in English: Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end. CCP official: Goon Market Manipulation NOT against the rules, and NOT an exploit. Tinfoil hat wearing pubbies, your comments? So any comment on when items will be returned?
Not yet. CCP is in a difficult spot. Our econ team didn't cheat, nor did they exploit. They abused a poorly designed game mechanic, which isn't actionable. At the same time, they kinda HAVE to do something, if only a token gesture. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:41:00 -
[1933] - Quote
Xython wrote: I suggest mining morons. You can get 500m per recruitment scam, easily. If you work hard at it, 100 billion isk in 2 months should be quite easy, that's only 200 marks.
Sorry, I've found new players (particularly those dumb enough to fall for that) are getting scarcer and scarcer thanks to the amazing negative publicity a certain alliance has been generating.
You guys do realize that while your exploits have a 'wow, that's cool' factor, it's usually also followed by the thought 'Wow, am I glad I don't play that game.'
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:42:00 -
[1934] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Fuujin wrote:RichestPoorest guy in eve, right here.
You got screwed man. Always tomorrow. 07
actually he's still solidly in the 1%
keep dreamin' a rogue goon |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:44:00 -
[1935] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote: I suggest mining morons. You can get 500m per recruitment scam, easily. If you work hard at it, 100 billion isk in 2 months should be quite easy, that's only 200 marks.
Sorry, I've found new players (particularly those dumb enough to fall for that) are getting scarcer and scarcer thanks to the amazing negative publicity a certain alliance has been generating. You guys do realize that while your exploits have a 'wow, that's cool' factor, it's usually also followed by the thought 'Wow, am I glad I don't play that game.'
Thanks for showing us where the mean old goons touched you on the dollie. Thanks explains a lot. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:45:00 -
[1936] - Quote
Paint wrote: Do you really think he is capable of that? He apparently can't read and has a really bad memory so I doubt even mining is going to work out for him.
Paint, while I grant my memory isn't what it used to be (I occasionally confuse Mittans and Sir Molle anymore) I might point out that for a very long time, I made money every time your allies came to me begging for more ships (cap and otherwise) because some goon plan that didn't involve a con, cheat or exploit blew up in their faces.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:45:00 -
[1937] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Sorry, I've found new players (particularly those dumb enough to fall for that) are getting scarcer and scarcer thanks to the amazing negative publicity a certain alliance has been generating.
You guys do realize that while your exploits have a 'wow, that's cool' factor, it's usually also followed by the thought 'Wow, am I glad I don't play that game.'
do i really need to shoot down the 'only new players fall for scams' myth again a rogue goon |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
820
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:47:00 -
[1938] - Quote
Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. You'll note that CCP is not calling this an exploit, and in interviews so far they are very carefully not calling it an exploit. You sound worried.
Heh.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:47:00 -
[1939] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: do i really need to shoot down the 'only new players fall for scams' myth again
Ideally you're correct, but in all honesty, after a while, we assume that anything anyone says is a scam of some sort.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:47:00 -
[1940] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote: I suggest mining morons. You can get 500m per recruitment scam, easily. If you work hard at it, 100 billion isk in 2 months should be quite easy, that's only 200 marks.
Sorry, I've found new players (particularly those dumb enough to fall for that) are getting scarcer and scarcer thanks to the amazing negative publicity a certain alliance has been generating. You guys do realize that while your exploits have a 'wow, that's cool' factor, it's usually also followed by the thought 'Wow, am I glad I don't play that game.'
Ah, the mythical "clueless carebear". I thought it was a joke made up to scare Newbees.
No, people are always going to be dumb. And since Goons are winning the culture war, more and more want to join us every day. We're just better at this game than almost everyone else, and we easily have more fun than most. And dear god, does that **** some people off. :)
And as for our exploits -- the fact that people can get away with scamming, with infiltration, with market manipulation is literally EVE's only truly unique feature. It's literally the only reason most people play the game, in a meta concept. It sure as heck isn't due to the.... "unique"... UI or PVE mechanics.
Hey fellow Gallente pilots: What books do you read while ratting? I'm going through the latest few Discworld novels, myself. |
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:49:00 -
[1941] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Do you really think he is capable of that? He apparently can't read and has a really bad memory so I doubt even mining is going to work out for him.
Paint, while I grant my memory isn't what it used to be (I occasionally confuse Mittans and Sir Molle anymore) I might point out that for a very long time, I made money every time your allies came to me begging for more ships (cap and otherwise) because some goon plan that didn't involve a con, cheat or exploit blew up in their faces.
Ha ha oh really? Do tell. Are you in fact also Istvaan Shogaatsu?
Come on, admit it, you planned all this back during the 2007 Bob BBQ right? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:49:00 -
[1942] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Ideally you're correct, but in all honesty, after a while, we assume that anything anyone says is a scam of some sort.
considering that many of our recruitment scams end with pubbie carriers getting doomsdayed while attempting to dock in VFK, or with faction battleships being handed over for "transport" or many other sorts of hilarity, well, I wouldn't consider the victims new players by any stretch a rogue goon |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:50:00 -
[1943] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny. What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.
ISboxer, Another legal mutliboxing method. It's all the rage in mining now. |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
820
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:50:00 -
[1944] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone? Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale. Ah. I misunderstood. Yah... I mean I agree. If it's within the normal mechanics of the game it should be fine. This wasn't a coding error. It wasn't even an error. CCP just failed to anticipate. Right?
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:52:00 -
[1945] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone? Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale. Ah. I misunderstood. Yah... I mean I agree. If it's within the normal mechanics of the game it should be fine. This wasn't a coding error. It wasn't even an error. CCP just failed to anticipate. Right?
Pretty much. CCP didn't think hard enough about the design change they made, and Goons, being Goons, pushed it to it's limit.
I still think it's better that 5 people who are working with CCP to help explain and investigate the emergent gameplay of the change is better than 500 people exploiting it slowly over the course of a year, but that's just me. :) |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:53:00 -
[1946] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I will be attending a wedding tomorrow, so gone pretty much the entire day and most of Sunday. Good. Enjoy yourself in RL this weekend and get this out of your head.
In the end, for us players, it is just a game, after all. Certainly not worth running up your blood pressure and stressing your hair grey.
After all, none of us are so foolish as to invest our emotions in a silly game, like those ninnies playing WoW, right? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:55:00 -
[1947] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone? Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale. Ah. I misunderstood. Yah... I mean I agree. If it's within the normal mechanics of the game it should be fine. This wasn't a coding error. It wasn't even an error. CCP just failed to anticipate. Right?
It's not so much they failed to anticipate, it's more they didn't heed warnings many players gave them pre-change. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think they truly understood the problem until an extensive writeup was done. I spent quite some time explaining all the facets to them. It wasn't a single path. You could do this several ways. The fix is non-trivial. If you link a pricing system to something the players directly can influence, they will influence it. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:55:00 -
[1948] - Quote
Xython wrote: Ah, the mythical "clueless carebear". I thought it was a joke made up to scare Newbees.
No, people are always going to be dumb. And since Goons are winning the culture war, more and more want to join us every day. We're just better at this game than almost everyone else, and we easily have more fun than most. And dear god, does that **** some people off. :)
And as for our exploits -- the fact that people can get away with scamming, with infiltration, with market manipulation is literally EVE's only truly unique feature. It's literally the only reason most people play the game, in a meta concept. It sure as heck isn't due to the.... "unique"... UI or PVE mechanics.
Because when goons win the culture war, GMs will have to step in like they did on the Chinese server (assuming anyone still plays the game at that point) .
While I'm sure this is a big ha ha **** look at em cry thing for you guys, the point is it's bad for the game. It's bad for CCP, and that's bad for everyone who likes to play eve. You might not have noticed, but we're at best static, and at worst, sinking with only people's alt accounts making up the diff. I know when my own accounts expire at the end of the month, after 9 years, I won't be re-subbing.
(and, before you ask, no, you can't haz my stuff)
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:56:00 -
[1949] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:I will be attending a wedding tomorrow, so gone pretty much the entire day and most of Sunday. Good. Enjoy yourself in RL this weekend and get this out of your head. In the end, for us players, it is just a game, after all. Certainly not worth running up your blood pressure and stressing your hair grey. After all, none of us are so foolish as to invest our emotions in a silly game, like those ninnies playing WoW, right?
I dunno, I think I am pretty calm considering i just watched trillions of ISK go poof from my characters. Beyond even what was involved in FW. But lots of drinking and speeches will probably mean I come back to a devblog at least. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:57:00 -
[1950] - Quote
Aryth wrote:It's not so much they failed to anticipate, it's more they didn't heed warnings many players gave them pre-change. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think they truly understood the problem until an extensive writeup was done. I spent quite some time explaining all the facets to them. It wasn't a single path. You could do this several ways. The fix is non-trivial. If you link a pricing system to something the players directly can influence, they will influence it.
Ah. That's where the big huge cockup is, then? The player influenceable "suggested price" they have in the new UI? |
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:58:00 -
[1951] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote: Ah, the mythical "clueless carebear". I thought it was a joke made up to scare Newbees.
No, people are always going to be dumb. And since Goons are winning the culture war, more and more want to join us every day. We're just better at this game than almost everyone else, and we easily have more fun than most. And dear god, does that **** some people off. :)
And as for our exploits -- the fact that people can get away with scamming, with infiltration, with market manipulation is literally EVE's only truly unique feature. It's literally the only reason most people play the game, in a meta concept. It sure as heck isn't due to the.... "unique"... UI or PVE mechanics.
Because when goons win the culture war, GMs will have to step in like they did on the Chinese server (assuming anyone still plays the game at that point) . While I'm sure this is a big ha ha **** look at em cry thing for you guys, the point is it's bad for the game. It's bad for CCP, and that's bad for everyone who likes to play eve. You might not have noticed, but we're at best static, and at worst, sinking with only people's alt accounts making up the diff. I know when my own accounts expire at the end of the month, after 9 years, I won't be re-subbing. (and, before you ask, no, you can't haz my stuff)
Well that character only goes back to 2008 so it is good to know you are not posting on your main PUPPETMASTER account. You are probably busy building dreads for us. THANKS BUDDY!
|
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:58:00 -
[1952] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples. And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok? I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision. There's a huge qualitative difference. When you have some unintended consequences in your design, then that's part of your game's framework until you change the design again. Examples for this are moon goo bottlenecks (badly designed, not an exploit), the Covops Cloak Avatar (unintended consequence of the new CPU rigs, not an exploit), or, for a non-EVE example, rocket jumping in Quake. Neither of these have resulted in any consequences for players that use them, and that's because they're there by design. Maybe the design is bad, but that doesn't matter: your design specifically states that players are allowed to do that. Compared to that, the design for towers said "you can combine these inputs in a specific way to make these outputs". Nowhere was it stated that you can combine nothing to make any outputs. Not even implicitly, and here's the big difference: market manipulation isn't a new thing in EVE, it's been around since the beginning. Now you combine that with the devblog on FW changes, where it says "Transported items market value", in these exact words. You can't seriously tell me that CCP didn't think people would be able to manipulate the value of items when that's exactly what has happened time and time again. So people have sat down, brainstormed, come up with these changes, and they have consciously decided that yes, they'll use market value, and it won't be a big problem.
Anyway; it doesn't really matter whether you think there's a difference between code bugs and design bugs, because CCP has (up until now) repeatedly shown that they think there is: Ferrogel duping (code bug) resulted in bans. AoE doomsdays (design bug) got patched out, no further action taken. WH infinite tracking (code bug due to underflow) resulted in bans. CONCORD boomerang (design bug) got patched out (and was declared an exploit by GM statement), but people who used it until then didn't have their account sanctioned. Triple web vindicator stopping people from entering warp (somewhat strange mixture of both code and design bug) was declared an exploit by GM statement. Bot users (I'd classify this being possible as a code bug, although I know that it's difficult if not impossible to entirely prevent; it's certainly not a design problem) got banned.
The point is, in all cases where the design was flawed, the loopholes was either changed or expressly disallowed, and prior to that nobody had actions taken against their account, or any proceeds reversed.
Even if you do believe that the gainings of those involved in the alleged FW exploit should be seized, there isn't really wide-spread opposition to that point of view; the majority of the outcry concerns that CCP has overdone it and removed ALL assets that looked like they might have been bought with LP at one point, regardless of the actual method of acquisition, and also disregarding the time when they were actually obtained. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:59:00 -
[1953] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote: Ah, the mythical "clueless carebear". I thought it was a joke made up to scare Newbees.
No, people are always going to be dumb. And since Goons are winning the culture war, more and more want to join us every day. We're just better at this game than almost everyone else, and we easily have more fun than most. And dear god, does that **** some people off. :)
And as for our exploits -- the fact that people can get away with scamming, with infiltration, with market manipulation is literally EVE's only truly unique feature. It's literally the only reason most people play the game, in a meta concept. It sure as heck isn't due to the.... "unique"... UI or PVE mechanics.
Because when goons win the culture war, GMs will have to step in like they did on the Chinese server (assuming anyone still plays the game at that point) . While I'm sure this is a big ha ha **** look at em cry thing for you guys, the point is it's bad for the game. It's bad for CCP, and that's bad for everyone who likes to play eve. You might not have noticed, but we're at best static, and at worst, sinking with only people's alt accounts making up the diff. I know when my own accounts expire at the end of the month, after 9 years, I won't be re-subbing. (and, before you ask, no, you can't haz my stuff)
You say it's bad for the game, but Goons consistantly bring forth emergent gameplay. Hell, EVE has been in the news more times this year as a direct result of Goons running player events than any other reason.
This burns the pubbies out there up, but it's true: Goons are good for EVE. We're also snappy dressers, devilishly handsome, skilled in the bedroom, and better at EVE than any of you. :) |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:59:00 -
[1954] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Because when goons win the culture war
we won the culture war long ago gf gf a rogue goon |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:59:00 -
[1955] - Quote
Xython wrote:Aryth wrote:It's not so much they failed to anticipate, it's more they didn't heed warnings many players gave them pre-change. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think they truly understood the problem until an extensive writeup was done. I spent quite some time explaining all the facets to them. It wasn't a single path. You could do this several ways. The fix is non-trivial. If you link a pricing system to something the players directly can influence, they will influence it. Ah. That's where the big huge cockup is, then? The player influenceable "suggested price" they have in the new UI?
Yes. Oh look, CCP pricing. Why, I will just fly over here to to this non-the-forge system and cycle a year's volume to myself real fast. At a hilarious mark up. Wait for the job to run on Friday. Oh look CCP value is now 68x what it was.
You can figure out the rest.
Edit: We had a 2nd item in the cooker that would have went to 10B..Each...for a 5% implant. There would have been an LP holocaust and I pressed for that to take the nerf bat before it could be used.
I spent billions in market fees maniping that one, and didn't even use it. |
Girlwith Dragontattoo
State Protectorate Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:02:00 -
[1956] - Quote
I have rubbed one out three times today while reading this thread... |
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:02:00 -
[1957] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail. And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how? Ok, let me explain then: You rigged both PvP and PvE on a grand scale. Effectively, you successfully ruined the game for thousands of players more than you could have ever hoped to have actually fought in a conventional contest of wealth or military power via exploits and loopholes. While I congratulate you on your inventiveness, I might point out that while goons policy is to drink the tears of other players, effectively trying to destroy EvE is ultimately counter productive, and if kept up, CCP will have to bring down the hammer on you. That's where you don't get goons. We're not trying to destroy Eve, just _your_ game of Eve.
Also while the sky should be falling on wallstreet, it was the rug that was instead ripped out from under you.
~ Sincerely, The one percent. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:03:00 -
[1958] - Quote
Paint wrote: Well that character only goes back to 2008 so it is good to know you are not posting on your main PUPPETMASTER account. You are probably busy building dreads for us. THANKS BUDDY!
And yet you complain about me not doing the research....
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:04:00 -
[1959] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Xython wrote:Aryth wrote:It's not so much they failed to anticipate, it's more they didn't heed warnings many players gave them pre-change. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think they truly understood the problem until an extensive writeup was done. I spent quite some time explaining all the facets to them. It wasn't a single path. You could do this several ways. The fix is non-trivial. If you link a pricing system to something the players directly can influence, they will influence it. Ah. That's where the big huge cockup is, then? The player influenceable "suggested price" they have in the new UI? Yes. Oh look, CCP pricing. Why, I will just fly over here to to this non-the-forge system and cycle a year's volume to myself real fast. At a hilarious mark up. Wait for the job to run on Friday. Oh look CCP value is now 68x what it was. You can figure out the rest.
And no one at CCP stopped and said "Uh, wait. We're honestly letting players influe..."
No, I know the answer to that. Either someone coded this feature in very quickly without thinking about the long term effects, or they did and just hoped no one would notice in time to affect it.
And again, CCP is in a very, very bad place: This was not an exploit (a code flaw) at all, it was a poorly designed mechanic (a design flaw) and thus they can't really do anything under their own guidelines.... But lord, the pressure for them to do something is probably quite great.
I certainly hope they don't throw you under the bus like they did Dear Leader, The Mittani. (All hail the CSM Chairman in Exile)
You mentioned that people tried to warn CCP and they didn't listen until you did a huge writeup with evidence. Am I to understand that you specifically contacted CCP earlier about this flaw and tried to warn them about the design cockup they were performing and were ignored?
Also: Where the hell is the CSM? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:10:00 -
[1960] - Quote
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote: That's where you don't get goons. We're not trying to destroy Eve, just _your_ game of Eve.
Also while the sky should be falling on wallstreet, it was the rug that was instead ripped out from under you.
~ Sincerely, The one percent.
Um, how so? This whole debacle doesn't matter one way or the other about how I played EvE. I already made my staggering fortune, long before some of you ever started playing EvE (for paint's edification, this toon is a 2004), and already own five of everything I want.
I enjoy hanging out and talking to people in game, and unless CCP gives you the keys to the chat system, I seriously doubt you can ruin my play style.
My problem with goons is the same as my problem with BoB. For an alliance to be 'victorious' means the death of the game.
EDit: as far as warning CCP, sadly, I know that their response time is abysmal now days. Back when I started, a bug like this would be addressed instantly. Now days a mail bug happens that prevents you from getting wardec and combat messages, and it's a two month wait for them to get back to you.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:10:00 -
[1961] - Quote
This seems like a good time to repost this important message from General Windypops, he was ahead of his time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCz14j04JTg |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:13:00 -
[1962] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Well that character only goes back to 2008 so it is good to know you are not posting on your main PUPPETMASTER account. You are probably busy building dreads for us. THANKS BUDDY!
And yet you complain about me not doing the research....
Oh I am sure right? If only I knew how critical you were/are to Goonswarm. I better show some serious respect right away! |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:16:00 -
[1963] - Quote
Paint wrote: Oh I am sure right? If only I knew how critical you were/are to Goonswarm. I better show some serious respect right away!
Paint, the point was this toon goes back to 2004, not 2008. ATM goons are not in my list of clients.
and I doubt you'd know what respect was if it bit you on the ass. I could be Mittens alt and you'd still be an *******.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
396
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:16:00 -
[1964] - Quote
Xython wrote:
I still think it's better that 5 people who are working with CCP to help explain and investigate the emergent gameplay of the change is better than 500 people exploiting it slowly over the course of a year, but that's just me. :)
Working with CCP? You mean making long smug posts about how much money they made and trying to cover their butts with a PR slant on their use of an exploit? Somebody who was working with CCP would have reported the problem and not tried to make a huge amount of isk from it. And then reap a huge PR bonanza from it by posting about it and making the error public.
I think Goonswarm has shown CCP just how much of a friend they are. |
Tragedy
The Creepshow
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:19:00 -
[1965] - Quote
Looks to me like ccp should pull their heads out of their asses and think things through before putting it in game. Goons did nothing wrong here, just played the game. I dont see it as an exploit at all. I'm not for or against goons. I'm normally not interested in their drama. This though, good for them. Maybe, just maybe, ccp will think about **** a bit more before putting garbage into the game. Doubt it though. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:19:00 -
[1966] - Quote
The sad part is that the only way EvE's PR could get worse as far as non-players are concerned is if CCP were taken over by EA. Seriously, it's THAT BAD in most other forums.
Let me put it in perspective: I was talking to one former player who left us in favor of The Old Republic. Stop and think about that for a second.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2492
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:21:00 -
[1967] - Quote
Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia.
You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ?
Just checking.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:22:00 -
[1968] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Oh I am sure right? If only I knew how critical you were/are to Goonswarm. I better show some serious respect right away!
Paint, the point was this toon goes back to 2004, not 2008. ATM goons are not in my list of clients. and I doubt you'd know what respect was if it bit you on the ass. I could be Mittens alt and you'd still be an *******.
True you've been in so many corps I had to click the button. Still though you need another year and 6 months to hit the 9 year mark. So you don't even know your own history.
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:24:00 -
[1969] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking.
It was reported, even funnier you apparently knew about it before it was reported here and didn't report it either.
Good job!
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:25:00 -
[1970] - Quote
Paint wrote: True you've been in so many corps I had to click the button. Still though you need another year and 6 months to hit the 9 year mark. So you don't even know your own history.
Never said this was my main. Just that this toon goes back further then you said. You're so hot to try and score points on my you're starting to make this easy.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
gulftobay
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:26:00 -
[1971] - Quote
Almost 100 pages, gsf overlord statement in works per pcgamer, gets popcorn.
Low self-esteem?-á Bored?-á-áLonely?-á |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
696
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:26:00 -
[1972] - Quote
Paint wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking. It was reported, even funnier you apparently knew about it before it was reported here and didn't report it either. Good job!
And had no problem making billions on it either. If a pillar of righteousness and space honour like Jade Constantine used the same methods prescribed by Aryth, no crimes were committed. If the glove doesn't fit- you must aquit. . |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:28:00 -
[1973] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: True you've been in so many corps I had to click the button. Still though you need another year and 6 months to hit the 9 year mark. So you don't even know your own history.
Never said this was my main. Just that this toon goes back further then you said. You're so hot to try and score points on my you're starting to make this easy.
I already stipulated that I realized that this wasn't your main. I am not "scoring points" your posts are really funny. I am hoping you will post some more details about your critical contributions to the success of Goonswarm. Should be good!
|
A'lan Wolf
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:28:00 -
[1974] - Quote
Whats really funny to me, is that none of this affected me one iota, i may never reach the dizzy heights in regards to isk that these players do, but i dont care..people in goonland seem to think everything they do affects everyone, well..newsflash..it doesnt..
just a little comment from someone who was oblivious to whatevere machinations you were up to..oblivious and untouched |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:28:00 -
[1975] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Almost 100 pages, gsf overlord statement in works per pcgamer, gets popcorn.
It will be an interesting song and dance. I mean, seriously, CCP will look like morons if the same alliance they allowed to publicly humiliate them at Fan Fest also turns around and uses an exploit to break the game without doing anything about it.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
39
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:29:00 -
[1976] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad. The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets.
So posting a short story about how you outsmarted the system, and then continued to abuse a system that wasn't intended to work the way it did isn't supposed to be a slap in CCP's face? All you guys have been doing prior to your assets being removed (if that even happened) was gloating about how the goons do this and the goons do that and how great you all believe yourselves to be. As soon as you supposedly started getting assets removed you start bitching and moaning like little kids who got put in the time out corner for pissing in the middle of a crowded room. Then we hear murmurs of how you will extract your revenge on the rest of Eve "again".
Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.
I swear every time you guys pull some kind of ridiculousness you just make yourselves look worse and worse by spouting off how great you are. Then when you start complaining when things don't go your way it is someone else's fault, and you have some how been wronged.
It is rather entertaining. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:33:00 -
[1977] - Quote
Paint wrote: I already stipulated that I realized that this wasn't your main. I am not "scoring points" your posts are really funny. I am hoping you will post some more details about your critical contributions to the success of Goonswarm. Should be good!
As I said, I put your allies back in ships. And when they became your enemies, I put them back in ships then too.
The only people critical to goons success are the CCP GMs that have otherwise failed to act time and time again for fear of you all mass quitting under the increasingly dubious excuse of EvE being a sandbox.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2492
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:34:00 -
[1978] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: save the crying for when they don't give stuff back they should have. until then, they probably will return unrelated stuff
Given CCP's past trackrecord of false positives for RMT, and now taking assets that had nothing to do with FW because they were the same asset type, well, I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to do anything of the sort. The greater issue is. This means combining mechanics in EVE to an unforseen outcome is an exploit. Forget the ISK for a second. This means EVE is not the EVE we thought it was. Read the thread, many people feel this is well within the mechanics. I would say most have voiced their support. If it's such a grey area, that the majority of people believe it to be legit, for CCP to do something like this is chilling indeed. I respect their right to maintain the sandbox. But my personal opinion is they are not the same company they were. This was well within bounds. That is a sad thing for EVE.
To be honest Aryth. I said I thought your market manipulation to game the value of lp-derived items on the lp payout for ship kill was pretty imaginative stuff (selling low valued nonsense commodities to each other to make the average price go up). I applauded the creativity really - but I think we both know that kind of thing can't stand on the scale you did it on - the integrity of the game universe for everyone else is important - and there is a default unwitten rule of any game (that even transcends the eula) "don't take the ****."
In addition, I think you stretched things beyond breaking with the double-counting of LP (getting awarded kill lp for stuff that dropped as cargo so you could do it again) - regardless of how much lp that actually created there is a principle there that it was clearly dodgy.
And arguably if you did use a G15/19 style keyboard to automate the collection of items from the loyalty point store thats also effectively cheating by the rules of the game (certainly by my interpretation of the gm decisions on macro programming keyboards).
I think threatening CCP with bad publicity (viral bad vibes) etc at this point won't do you guys any good at all. Public opinion is always fascinated by scandal and heists like this - but sympathy never really lasts for people who effectively cheated at the game (on the assumption thats the judgement of course.)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
DeathBeforeDishonour
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:36:00 -
[1979] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Hey you have just to watch the fanfest videos to realize that what I say is true. In CCP Sreegs eyes a botter, a cheater a RMTer and an exploiter are all the same cockroach to crush.
But I guess in CCP's eyes, sitting in Jita running spam/market bots and scamming people all day is acceptable (and apparently exploiting things like the "Margin Trading" mechanic is OK as well).
Guess it depends on whether or not CCP (or their player alts) are making isk off of the "broken" mechanics themselves. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2492
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:37:00 -
[1980] - Quote
Paint wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking. It was reported, even funnier you apparently knew about it before it was reported here and didn't report it either. Good job!
You chaps really need to learn to follow the sequence of events. Arth tweeted his plan at CCP Punkaris. Everyone else who got an early sight of the document saw it at that point. Of course the heroic comrades of the TLF had made their cash-outs completely oblivious to these shennanigans some days before on saturday afternoon when they traded their legally-obtained LP's favourably on the tier 5 LP store. All in all you could call it a happy coincidence.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:39:00 -
[1981] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: I already stipulated that I realized that this wasn't your main. I am not "scoring points" your posts are really funny. I am hoping you will post some more details about your critical contributions to the success of Goonswarm. Should be good!
As I said, I put your allies back in ships. And when they became your enemies, I put them back in ships then too. The only people critical to goons success are the CCP GMs that have otherwise failed to act time and time again for fear of you all mass quitting under the increasingly dubious excuse of EvE being a sandbox. Edit: Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.
Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around.
So was this when you were in the corp powerhouses "Ninjitsu Heavy Industries" or perhaps it was when you were in the famous corp "The Eiken Club" or perhaps I am confused and it was when you were in "Ninjitsu Incorporated"?
I guess I better be careful here. Not only am I messing with a puppetmaster who has saved goonswarm time and again, but also you are apparently a skilled Ninja! |
ashley Eoner
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:43:00 -
[1982] - Quote
This thread is full of hilarity. Never before have I seen so many goon tears.. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:43:00 -
[1983] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:This thread is full of hilarity. Never before have I seen so many goon tears..
Are you also a ninja? You look kinda like a ninja?
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:45:00 -
[1984] - Quote
Aryth wrote: I dunno, I think I am pretty calm considering i just watched trillions of ISK go poof from my characters. Beyond even what was involved in FW. But lots of drinking and speeches will probably mean I come back to a devblog at least.
Just virtual cash, no matter the yak about so many ISK being worth so many RL dollars/euros. On the (far in the future, ofc) day that CCP inevitably shuts down the Eve servers for good, it will all vanish into the nothingness from whence it came. Keep your health - it is worth far more.
As for the eventual response from CCP Sreegs.... based on what's happened thus far, in all likelihood, you aren't going to like it, nor agree with it. But, I think you know that arguing with (or complaining about) Sreegs, after a decision has been made, is somewhat counter-productive.
I'd advise just to roll with it, shrug your shoulders, and move on. Others, who have nothing better to do with their time, will gladly keep the issue, and any necessary outrage, alive on the forums and blogs on your behalf. |
Luis Graca
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:47:00 -
[1985] - Quote
100 pages of pure crap |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:49:00 -
[1986] - Quote
Paint wrote: So was this when you were in the corp powerhouses "Ninjitsu Heavy Industries" or perhaps it was when you were in the famous corp "The Eiken Club" or perhaps I am confused and it was when you were in "Ninjitsu Incorporated"?
I guess I better be careful here. Not only am I messing with a puppetmaster who has saved goonswarm time and again, but also you are apparently a skilled Ninja!
We are the shadow that comes by night and builds your house.
Ninjitsu in it's various incarnations, rolled slightly over 100 cap ships, and nearly 1k HACs in addition to our Tech II munitions lines and happily delivered to any system in eve if the price was right. Most of us have since left eve.
And, you must not notice the theme in my corp names.
ashley Eoner wrote:This thread is full of hilarity. Never before have I seen so many goon tears..
I know, right? Paint keeps trying, but s(he) just keeps sounding desperate.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:53:00 -
[1987] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: So was this when you were in the corp powerhouses "Ninjitsu Heavy Industries" or perhaps it was when you were in the famous corp "The Eiken Club" or perhaps I am confused and it was when you were in "Ninjitsu Incorporated"?
I guess I better be careful here. Not only am I messing with a puppetmaster who has saved goonswarm time and again, but also you are apparently a skilled Ninja!
We are the shadow that comes by night and builds your house. Ninjitsu in it's various incarnations, rolled slightly over 100 cap ships, and nearly 1k HACs in addition to our Tech II munitions lines and happily delivered to any system in eve if the price was right. Most of us have since left eve. And, you must not notice the theme in my corp names. ashley Eoner wrote:This thread is full of hilarity. Never before have I seen so many goon tears.. I know, right? Paint keeps trying, but s(he) just keeps sounding desperate.
Oh I noticed, that was the point. Perhaps you could make a new corp "MIGHTY SUPERNINJAS.DOT" |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:56:00 -
[1988] - Quote
Paint wrote: Oh I noticed, that was the point. Perhaps you could make a new corp "MIGHTY SUPERNINJAS.DOT"
*points to current corp name* Same level of awesome, much nicer ring to it. Might try googling it.
For those with no idea what Paint is talking about: out of 9 corps since 2004, 4 of them were incarnations of the same corp, with a same or similar sounding name.
The others that I named were: Kagura Total Security The Eiken Club World Welfare Works Association Elite Angels
Feel free to play the theme game at home! First one right without using google gets a +like.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:56:00 -
[1989] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking. So would you say that it would be also fair to punish the Minmatar militia for the ridiculous amounts of ISK they made during the Goon manipulation as well? Didn't think so. Sure the Min militia as a whole didn't know about the scam as it was happening, but if its as black and white wrong like you claim it is, you should do the right thing and return the ridiculous amount of ISK that you guys profited off of it. Stop being a hypocrite.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:59:00 -
[1990] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Oh I noticed, that was the point. Perhaps you could make a new corp "MIGHTY SUPERNINJAS.DOT"
*points to current corp name* Same level of awesome, much nicer ring to it. Might try googling it.
How could it be better than a cartoon about young girls with giant breasts? That was the obvious high point in your corp history. |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:03:00 -
[1991] - Quote
Paint wrote:
How could it be better than a cartoon about young girls with giant breasts?
Has more space ships and pew pew. I thought goons were all about those two things? Or maybe it's just about exploits and trolling CCP now?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:04:00 -
[1992] - Quote
Paint, you need to stop eating it. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:06:00 -
[1993] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Paint, you need to stop eating it.
But I like watching Paint get high on her own bullshit. It reminds me of the old days when Sir Molle would post.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:06:00 -
[1994] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote:
How could it be better than a cartoon about young girls with giant breasts?
Has more space ships and pew pew. I thought goons were all about those two things? Or maybe it's just about exploits and trolling CCP now?
You are a little behind the times, CCP already said it was not an exploit. You are also a little late if you think Goons trolling people is anything new.
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:06:00 -
[1995] - Quote
hey Cygnet Lythanea tell me more about how you were absolutely CRUCIAL to our recent and past war efforts a rogue goon |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:08:00 -
[1996] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:hey Cygnet Lythanea tell me more about how you were absolutely CRUCIAL to our recent and past war efforts
Never did say that. That one was all Paint.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:12:00 -
[1997] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:hey Cygnet Lythanea tell me more about how you were absolutely CRUCIAL to our recent and past war efforts Never did say that. That one was all Paint.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:I made money every time your allies came to me begging for more ships (cap and otherwise) because some goon plan that didn't involve a con, cheat or exploit blew up in their faces. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:12:00 -
[1998] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint, while I grant my memory isn't what it used to be (I occasionally confuse Mittans and Sir Molle anymore) I might point out that for a very long time, I made money every time your allies came to me begging for more ships (cap and otherwise) because some goon plan that didn't involve a con, cheat or exploit blew up in their faces.
lol who were these 'allies' that were so dependent on you and who were not able to build their own capitals a rogue goon |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:12:00 -
[1999] - Quote
Paint wrote: You are a little behind the times, CCP already said it was not an exploit. You are also a little late if you think Goons trolling people is anything new.
Of course it's not, because if it were they'd have to apply their rules on that, which means that members of goonswarm would be punished and we know how unlikely that is.
And, I never said goons trolling was new, I said that goons used to be about pew pew and space ships. There used to be a difference.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:18:00 -
[2000] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: lol who were these 'allies' that were so dependent on you and who were not able to build their own capitals
And, again, not what I said: MC (as an example former customer) had members with outstanding agreements with me. You do realize that not every supply chain stays in the alliance, right?
And, again, Paint, that does not say that I was essential to your success. As I stated before, the only people essential to your success have been CCP's reluctance to do something about goons.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:18:00 -
[2001] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:This thread is full of hilarity. Never before have I seen so many goon tears.. Um...not seeing any Goon tears. You looking in a mirror or something?
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:19:00 -
[2002] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: You are a little behind the times, CCP already said it was not an exploit. You are also a little late if you think Goons trolling people is anything new.
Of course it's not, because if it were they'd have to apply their rules on that, which means that members of goonswarm would be punished and we know how unlikely that is. And, I never said goons trolling was new, I said that goons used to be about pew pew and space ships. There used to be a difference.
Yeah Nobody got banned and removed from the CSM lately or anything. Everyone knows how POWERFUL goonswarm influence is at CCP. WE ARE UNTOUCHABLE.
Might as well quit now!
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:20:00 -
[2003] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:And, again, not what I said: MC (as an example former customer) had members with outstanding agreements with me. You do realize that not every supply chain stays in the alliance, right?
oh yes, Mercenary Coalition, well known Goonswarm allies a rogue goon |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2494
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:20:00 -
[2004] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking. So would you say that it would be also fair to punish the Minmatar militia for the ridiculous amounts of ISK they made during the Goon manipulation as well? Didn't think so. Sure the Min militia as a whole didn't know about the scam as it was happening, but if its as black and white wrong like you claim it is, you should do the right thing and return the ridiculous amount of ISK that you guys profited off of it. Stop being a hypocrite.
Well how exactly do you handle a rollback like that really. CCP could give all the LP back to the minmatar characters who cashed out - and remove all the loyalty point goods they bought with it. But how do you restore the integrity of the market and get back to prices these things should be worth (without removing pretty much everything that got cashed in and sold during the weeks after inferno).
If it turned out that was a route CCP wanted to go by then fair enough. I'd be happy to see the couple of million lps that I legally earned (missions and plexes) turn up in my wallet while all the hundreds of millions of lps the rest of the militia earned turned up in theirs.
We could then spend 6m between us to put the store to tier 5 again and cash out again. (returning our hangers to the same approximate state they currently are in).
But thats a lot of GM time and effort to clean up after the goons really
Here's the thing Pinky. Regardless of the goon-manipulation the TLF is capable of taking the minmatar store to tier 5 at any time simply by spending 6m collectively. Six fairly average FW players have that much. Its possible to do this because the Minmatar faction won faction war pretty honestly prior to inferno.
So my question to you is if you think its worth CCP's time to go through everyone's hanger and remove the proceeds of saturday's cashout and turn it back into LP's just so we can collectively jump the store back to tier 5 and cash out again?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:21:00 -
[2005] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:And, again, not what I said: MC (as an example former customer) had members with outstanding agreements with me. You do realize that not every supply chain stays in the alliance, right? oh yes, Mercenary Coalition, well known Goonswarm allies
Yep we are TIGHT always have been.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
225
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:23:00 -
[2006] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking. So would you say that it would be also fair to punish the Minmatar militia for the ridiculous amounts of ISK they made during the Goon manipulation as well? Didn't think so. Sure the Min militia as a whole didn't know about the scam as it was happening, but if its as black and white wrong like you claim it is, you should do the right thing and return the ridiculous amount of ISK that you guys profited off of it. Stop being a hypocrite. As I understand, the only benefit seen by the militia as a whole was the LP investment to keep the tier level maxed out. The only way to avoid gaining from this is to not participate in faction warfare. The the objectionable actions taken by the individuals orchestrating and profiting from these acts were the market manipulations and LP farming of inflated items. Considering this, the difference between what the average FW participant made and what they would have made for exactly the same actions had the farming and manipulations never occurred is probably negligible to a point of being less than worth considering on a per person basis and possibly still less than what the actual participants in scheme netted when viewed collectively. |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
141
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:24:00 -
[2007] - Quote
After 100 pages.
Non goons troling goons, goons trolling goons, goons trolling non goons, goons trolling CCP, non goons troling CCP, CCP trolling non goons, CCP troling goons because this therad still exist, everybody trolling everyone.
|
Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
146
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:25:00 -
[2008] - Quote
Aha..finally made it to the bottom again.
Just a couple observations.
1) This is CCP's sandbox that we play in. They can do whatever they damn well please with it. Including implementing what seems to be an unfair punishment. 2) Have we learned yet not to tweak CCP's nose? Any time you make the gods of your universe unhappy. Someone is going to get the short end of the stick in an uncomfortable place.
Do I agree with what CCP is doing (the alleged confiscation of items from folks that had nothing to do with whatever they will choose to call this)? Nope. I understand. But I don't agree.
Then again. CCP has forever and a day more or less said that this game is not meant to be fair.
But right now. Effectively the concord division of the SEC is taking a very hard look at a bunch of people. Cardboard boxes of stuff and isk are being put away. Until the forensic economist can come in and look at the mess.
When will the devs speak up and say what is on their minds? Who knows. You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:25:00 -
[2009] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: oh yes, Mercenary Coalition, well known Goonswarm allies
Something tells me that even if you had my point webbed and scrammed you'd still miss it.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:27:00 -
[2010] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: oh yes, Mercenary Coalition, well known Goonswarm allies
Something tells me that even if you had my point webbed and scrammed you'd still miss it. Cloned S0ul wrote:After 100 pages.
Non goons troling goons, goons trolling goons, goons trolling non goons, goons trolling CCP, non goons troling CCP, CCP trolling non goons, CCP troling goons because this therad still exist, everybody trolling everyone.
In a nutshell, yes. But I'm enjoying goons attempts to counter troll me none the less.
No, we get it, Big Tit ninja girls saved MC when goons screwed them over.
|
|
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:30:00 -
[2011] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Yes you do. Again read the first pages of this thread all the Goons jumping in to pat themselves on the back , Now its nothing to do with you, how does that work ?
Tal No, we don't. Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent ? Tal
I get the feeling you perceive "goons" as some kind of gigantic hive mind being. When a few take credit, they all take credit sympathetically.
To answer your question, every single goon didn't take credit for this. I certainly approved of it, and still do, but that doesn't mean I had a hand in it. I sure wish I did, but are you really advocating that CCP ban all of us just because a few did it, and a few more approve? Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:30:00 -
[2012] - Quote
Paint wrote: No, we get it, Big Tit ninja girls saved MC when goons screwed them over.
Not quite, but if I could have arraigned that, I'd probably have been declared God Emperor of EvE, because half the game would have joined my corp to meet big titted ninja girls.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Hammer V Dagenhart
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:31:00 -
[2013] - Quote
Posting in a thread about posts. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:33:00 -
[2014] - Quote
Hammer V Dagenhart wrote:Posting in a thread about posts.
I thought it was a thread about epeens, and how painful it was for goons to get theirs slapped by CCP once it got good and hard.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:38:00 -
[2015] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Hammer V Dagenhart wrote:Posting in a thread about posts. I thought it was a thread about epeens, and how painful it was for goons to get theirs slapped by CCP once it got good and hard.
Well not all of us can save Mercenary Coalition while being Ninja girls with very large breasts. Some us have to settle for less I guess. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:39:00 -
[2016] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Xython wrote:
I still think it's better that 5 people who are working with CCP to help explain and investigate the emergent gameplay of the change is better than 500 people exploiting it slowly over the course of a year, but that's just me. :)
Working with CCP? You mean making long smug posts about how much money they made and trying to cover their butts with a PR slant on their use of an exploit? Somebody who was working with CCP would have reported the problem and not tried to make a huge amount of isk from it. And then reap a huge PR bonanza from it by posting about it and making the error public. I think Goonswarm has shown CCP just how much of a friend they are.
No, but thank you for asking. I was actually talking about the private communication our Economics team sent CCP before making this smug post on our forums (and then reposting it here to stir up trouble). I can see your confusion, but let me be clear: Our Economics team specifically did this in a pattern to avoid completely destroying the economy (for example, they were specifically avoiding favoring any one faction) and communicated everything they did to CCP after they felt they had enough evidence in place that there was a severe problem that needed addressing. |
Sekket
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:40:00 -
[2017] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:No isk was created by this method. Isk was actually SUNK by this method into FW stores and broker's fees.
All the isk pulled in was from player's hands.
And this whole thread is like a giant billboard advertising the fire sale. - CQ isn't a refuge, it's a cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iu4iekX3WE |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:40:00 -
[2018] - Quote
Paint wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking. It was reported, even funnier you apparently knew about it before it was reported here and didn't report it either. Good job!
Not only that, Jadeykins exploited almost 9 billion ISK before CCP stepped in. Pot, meet kettle! :D |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:41:00 -
[2019] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:[list]
PS I love how you goons all circlejerked at the beginning of this thread and now are backtracking heavily.
No one is doing this. We all cheered and supported them, and we still do. We just don't think the entire alliance should be banned. Hell, we don't think the people who did this should be banned. They told CCP they could do it, and CCP was basically like "Big deal". No one is distancing themselves, no one needs to. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:42:00 -
[2020] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.
Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around.
That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun... |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:42:00 -
[2021] - Quote
Paint wrote: Well not all of us can save Mercenary Coalition while being Ninja girls with very large breasts. Some us have to settle for less I guess.
Paint, I fully expect by the end of the night, you'll be saying that I'm the secret power behind goons, BoB, and every other chickenshit outfit that's come along.
I do not require your worship to maintain my near infinite power and I gain no satisfaction from it.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
763
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:44:00 -
[2022] - Quote
I said something like this was possible when they listed the changes that were coming.
I was told no one would want to do the work to pull it off.
Seems I new better.
This is all CCPs fault, this was a super obvious thing. It was one of the reasons i was against the FW changes that and station lockout. Most of the stuff wrong that is happening in FW was super obvious and long term bad ideas.
There is no way to fix this without being unfair about it now.
I give goons props for pulling off what I suggested to others ages ago. I dont think they should be punished for this. CCP will have to give them something in fair exchange for what they pulled off.
maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two.
Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:45:00 -
[2023] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:I said something like this was possible when they listed the changes that were coming.
I was told no one would want to do the work to pull it off.
Seems I new better.
This is all CCPs fault, this was a super obvious thing. It was one of the reasons i was against the FW changes that and station lockout. Most of the stuff wrong that is happening in FW was super obvious and long term bad ideas.
There is no way to fix this without being unfair about it now.
I give goons props for pulling off what I suggested to others ages ago. I dont think they should be punished for this. CCP will have to give them something in fair exchange for what they pulled off.
maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two.
Holy crap, I'm actually agreeing with one of your posts. +1. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2494
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:45:00 -
[2024] - Quote
Xython wrote:Paint wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking. It was reported, even funnier you apparently knew about it before it was reported here and didn't report it either. Good job! Not only that, Jadeykins exploited almost 9 billion ISK before CCP stepped in. Pot, meet kettle! :D
You shouldn't tell lies or spread nasty rumours about other Eve players.
Protip Buying things with legally earned LP from the loyalty point store is not "exploiting."
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:46:00 -
[2025] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Well not all of us can save Mercenary Coalition while being Ninja girls with very large breasts. Some us have to settle for less I guess.
Paint, I fully expect by the end of the night, you'll be saying that I'm the secret power behind goons, BoB, and every other chickenshit outfit that's come along. I do not require your worship to maintain my near infinite power and I gain no satisfaction from it.
Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.
|
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:46:00 -
[2026] - Quote
A large amount of stone throwing entering this thread. Moderators really should clean it up. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:47:00 -
[2027] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Well its not the first time that the "eve is a sandbox" theme gets thrown by the wayside when game mechanics are used in an apparently unexpected way. It hasn't changed status from being a sandbox, the rules are just being changed. Jade Constantine wrote:The recent plan to near completely nerf defensive allies from the Inferno wardec system is a pretty good example of ("fairness for the attacker" trumping the sandbox of emergent gameplay and unexpected consequences) and its not the first time thats happened in the realm of hisec wardecs either. Yes, let's completely gloss over the fact that the reason for the change was the fact that everybody more or less dogpiled into every wardec which was opened up to the public, where some corps had 50-70 active wardecs.
I kinda liked that. Given long enough, everyone in highsec would eventually be wardecced to everyone, and it would effectively be nullsec.
So yeah, roll back the wardec nerfs, ccp. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:50:00 -
[2028] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent ?
Tal Let me try to say it more bluntly. CCP has the logs and the data. They have what they need to perform an investigation. Any action they may take will be taken against those who were involved. They won't punish GSF as a whole for their actions, no matter how many Goonswarm members applaud it, simply because the people involved did this entirely on their own.Simple enough? So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Tal
I don't understand what it is you think we need to distance ourselves from. The vast majority of us actually had no hand in this. That's not me trying to protect myself from the consequences of these actions, because I had no part in them. That is simply a fact. Yes, I stand behind those who did, but the reason I am not claiming that I was a direct part of this is because I was actually not a direct part in it. I don't know what it is you want me to say, but that is a fact. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
137
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:52:00 -
[2029] - Quote
Holy crap I posted here yesterday it was at 42 pages
InternetSpaceship wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Well its not the first time that the "eve is a sandbox" theme gets thrown by the wayside when game mechanics are used in an apparently unexpected way. It hasn't changed status from being a sandbox, the rules are just being changed. Jade Constantine wrote:The recent plan to near completely nerf defensive allies from the Inferno wardec system is a pretty good example of ("fairness for the attacker" trumping the sandbox of emergent gameplay and unexpected consequences) and its not the first time thats happened in the realm of hisec wardecs either. Yes, let's completely gloss over the fact that the reason for the change was the fact that everybody more or less dogpiled into every wardec which was opened up to the public, where some corps had 50-70 active wardecs. I kinda liked that. Given long enough, everyone in highsec would eventually be wardecced to everyone, and it would effectively be nullsec. So yeah, roll back the wardec nerfs, ccp.
This actually. Get rid of CONCORD. Ive said it a while now. Theyre broken and if we could shoot first, thered be people you could hire to defend you in high sec (you know, MERCENARIES). But heep the sec stuff so we cant get 100+ supercap gang banged http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:53:00 -
[2030] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Protip Buying things with legally earned LP from the loyalty point store is not "exploiting."
This just in: Jade Constantine: Jewball "not exploiting." |
|
Thomas Shaefer
The Partisan Brigade Republic Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:53:00 -
[2031] - Quote
Well this is a thing. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:54:00 -
[2032] - Quote
Paint wrote: Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.
Mm... this *is* a tasty burger...
There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely.
Me, I'm just gonna walk the web. You know, like Caine in Kung Fu?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
936
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:55:00 -
[2033] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely.
Not to burst your little bubble, but subscriptions are actually going up for the first time in a long while. ;)
|
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
764
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:55:00 -
[2034] - Quote
Xython wrote:RougeOperator wrote:I said something like this was possible when they listed the changes that were coming.
I was told no one would want to do the work to pull it off.
Seems I new better.
This is all CCPs fault, this was a super obvious thing. It was one of the reasons i was against the FW changes that and station lockout. Most of the stuff wrong that is happening in FW was super obvious and long term bad ideas.
There is no way to fix this without being unfair about it now.
I give goons props for pulling off what I suggested to others ages ago. I dont think they should be punished for this. CCP will have to give them something in fair exchange for what they pulled off.
maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two.
Holy crap, I'm actually agreeing with one of your posts. +1.
It happens more oft then not. I can come of as harsh but ultimately im fair and interested in justice.
And the fact i did mention this was a possibility ages ago in terms of related game time means It was just something waiting to happen.
I haven't been around much cause i got hit by a car and had other things to take care of. But to come back and see that someone pulled off something i said was possible with the way they are setting up FW and that it happened just how i said it would was a nice present. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:56:00 -
[2035] - Quote
Quote: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Oh look, it's the sound of Darius Johnson wringing his hands over whether to screw goons or not. I bet he was up all night wrestling with the moral dilemma.
Would you like a guide to how not to screw over your old friends?
1. Don't use words to describe the situation that clearly show bias toward one interpretation of events.
2. Clearly show the way in which you have arrived at your decision.
3. Explain how you will ensure this kind of thing does not occur again and how players can help to prevent such a thing.
4. Be clear and fair if you remove assets from the people involved and do not take more than you should. Do not treat the involved parties as criminals.
5. Treat the entire event like some kind of hilarious and clever prank. Post with good humor. Contact the media and speak about the involved parties as clever players and turn the entire event into positive advertising.
6. If you're fair, unbiased and reasonable even the people you're taking isk away from will probably be okay with it. They certainly seemed like they were expecting to be caught and that the damage would be repaired. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2494
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:56:00 -
[2036] - Quote
Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.
Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around. That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun...
If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:58:00 -
[2037] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two.
Goonamake a rogue goon |
Doctor Benway Kado
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:58:00 -
[2038] - Quote
People think we're distancing ourselves now? Did they miss the whole "super exclusive group of trillionaire market manipulators" thing? Eight people were in the know, and five of them did it. If it had been public policy, I can assure you, we would have obliterated the profits of all mission runners and earned a lot more than 5 trillion. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:58:00 -
[2039] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.
Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around. That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun... If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
You do that. I'd love nothing more than to see highsec turn into a wardecced wasteland where everyone is blowing everyone else up because their corp has 50+ wardecs. It sure wouldn't change anything in null, so go nuts with it. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:59:00 -
[2040] - Quote
Xython wrote: Not to burst your little bubble, but subscriptions are actually going up for the first time in a long while. ;)
What we're seeing is a small percentage of players leaving TOR coming back to EvE rather than heading over to WoT. Since PvP hasn't improved since they left, how long till they leave again?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
936
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:02:00 -
[2041] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.
Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around. That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun... If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
You bragged about exploiting the wardec changes. You knew they were going to be fixed, including a "get out of responsibility free" card in your post -- claiming if they were fixed, it was cause supposedly cried to CCP. They were fixed. You claimed we cried to CCP. Evidence that we actually were looking forward to the foreverwar was ignored in lieu of the lie pubbies tell themselves so they can sleep at night.
Let it go. The game isn't fair in such a way that a 100 man alliance can fight off a 7000 man alliance. Nor is it designed to be unbalanced in such a way. And trying to bleat and moan until CCP somehow makes it "fair" like that is never going to happen, because that's stupid on a level that almost matches the stupidity of people who run 23 ice miner bot accounts at the same time.
If you want to fight Goonswarm like that, make your own alliance. Come visit VFK with 254 of your closest friends. We'll leave the light on for you. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
936
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:02:00 -
[2042] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote: Not to burst your little bubble, but subscriptions are actually going up for the first time in a long while. ;)
*Fingers in Ears* "La La La, Evidence that does not fit my worldview doesn't count!!!! La La la!!"
|
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:03:00 -
[2043] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.
Mm... this *is* a tasty burger... There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely. Me, I'm just gonna walk the web. You know, like Caine in Kung Fu?
Well as long as the subs here dont start drying up too; who cares? EVE does well on 300k subs
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:05:00 -
[2044] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.
Mm... this *is* a tasty burger... There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely. Me, I'm just gonna walk the web. You know, like Caine in Kung Fu?
But with Big boobs. You are an amazing person, perhaps you should reconsider. I am sure that if Billy Merc knew of your amazing super powers, you and he could headshot us. |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:06:00 -
[2045] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:RougeOperator wrote:maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two. Goonamake
Id say that would be the only fair way for CCP to handle this problem of their own making with FW mechanics that were not thoroughly tested.
Which Really did roll out very fast from the FanFest "we have these ideas" to just a way to short time later "they ideas are done". Showing a lack of input from players and time for players to look at things to say, hey there might be a problem here. They had this stuff well under way long before FanFest Imo. So all their own making.
Here is a tip to CCP. IF ITS POSSIBLE SOMEONE WILL TRY TO PULL IT OFF. There is no such thing as too hard for a bunch of bored internet space pod pilots.
So when someone says, hey this might happen if X. you should take it seriously next time.
You really need to listen to player feedback more carefully. Many times you end up in these situations cause you dont.
So 900t to be able to name a system and its planets.
Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:08:00 -
[2046] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
Well, if you wouldn't "hire" any three person corp, with people barely able to press F1, onto your little wardec, you might find that actually hiring competent mercs might prove useful.
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:15:00 -
[2047] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.
Mm... this *is* a tasty burger... There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely. Me, I'm just gonna walk the web. You know, like Caine in Kung Fu? But with Big boobs. You are an amazing person, perhaps you should reconsider. I am sure that if Billy Merc knew of your amazing super powers, you and he could headshot us.
WTF a Goon saying nice things???
*head explode* http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:15:00 -
[2048] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:So 900t to be able to name a system and its planets.
this was nowhere close to 900tn, it was "only" around 5tn a rogue goon |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:17:00 -
[2049] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote: WTF a Goon saying nice things???
*head explode*
Sadly, Paint's efforts to troll me clearly have more effect on others.
Personally, I think paint comes from the Planet Tryingtoohard.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:22:00 -
[2050] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote: WTF a Goon saying nice things???
*head explode*
Sadly, Paint's efforts to troll me clearly have more effect on others. Personally, I think paint comes from the Planet Tryingtoohard.
You ask for respect, I show it, I am in awe of your mad ninja skills. I am also in awe of your extremely large ****.
How is this trolling?
I just wish Goonswarm had corp names half as cool as the ones in your history. HELL, I wish I could have saved MC when Goonswarm failed them during the Bob Delve wars.
|
|
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:23:00 -
[2051] - Quote
5tn... hum... and yet we are nerfing data cores because it was too much isk. :\ |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2495
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:24:00 -
[2052] - Quote
Xython wrote: You bragged about exploiting the wardec changes. You knew they were going to be fixed, including a "get out of responsibility free" card in your post -- claiming if they were fixed, it was cause supposedly cried to CCP. They were fixed. You claimed we cried to CCP. Evidence that we actually were looking forward to the foreverwar was ignored in lieu of the lie pubbies tell themselves so they can sleep at night.
You need to stop falsely accusing people of "exploitng". We did absolutely nothing with wardecs that was not discussed in the inferno 1.0 wardec devblog. Your directors weclomed the 1.1 changes in the various threads - your allies in TEST also. So while I do appreciate you need to put on a big brave "come at me bro" face when discussing wardecs - the reality is a little less pugnacious.
Xython wrote: Let it go. The game isn't fair in such a way that a 100 man alliance can fight off a 7000 man alliance. Nor is it designed to be unbalanced in such a way. And trying to bleat and moan until CCP somehow makes it "fair" like that is never going to happen, because that's stupid on a level that almost matches the stupidity of people who run 23 ice miner bot accounts at the same time.
So is it fair or unfair in favour of the largest alliances in the game that its going to be impossible for a defensive coalition to come close to matching the numbers an aggressor can bring to war for a nominal payment of 50m isk per week? I think you are mixing up definitions - is eve Fair (thus its unfair that small guys can fight back) or Unfair (but specially fair on the largest). I'm confused to be honest. I can't really decide whether eve is supposed to be "fair" or not. Or if its only supposed to be "fair" for some and "unfair" for others.
Xython wrote: If you want to fight Goonswarm like that, make your own alliance. Come visit VFK with 254 of your closest friends. We'll leave the light on for you.
Hey you wardecced us. Don't try and split away now with all that "come and fight us in 0.0 guff" - I did my best to arrange a welcoming committe for the swarm in hisec so don't go running away now.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:26:00 -
[2053] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:RougeOperator wrote:So 900t to be able to name a system and its planets.
this was nowhere close to 900tn, it was "only" around 5tn
It theoretically was an infinite money loop.
the real value is not important.
Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
938
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:28:00 -
[2054] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:RougeOperator wrote:So 900t to be able to name a system and its planets.
this was nowhere close to 900tn, it was "only" around 5tn It theoretically was an infinite money loop. the real value is not important.
Theoretically every action in the game is an infinite money loop. Lets not get ourselves worked up on "potential isk". |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:30:00 -
[2055] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:RougeOperator wrote:So 900t to be able to name a system and its planets.
this was nowhere close to 900tn, it was "only" around 5tn It theoretically was an infinite money loop. the real value is not important.
Ratting, Mission running and mining in high sec are infinite money loops. But hey as you claim the real money is not important right?
Or maybe you are just a complete idiot.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:31:00 -
[2056] - Quote
To the Tune of Tomarrow Never Dies
GM I'm killed I'm in a puddle in my pod Waiting for you to return oh, petitions a thrill, Violations galore the EULA, how you leave it to burn
[Chorus]
They're so deadly my dear Their power of subscriptions you fear Until that day, Until EvE falls away Until they say there'll be no more subscribe's I see it in your eyes, Goonswarm never dies
You know they've won It's no fun Veld, PvP, and Runs It's murder on our love affair you bet my life every night While I'm chasing the wormhole light Your not the only game out there
[Chorus]
Until That Day Until EvE Falls Away Until You Say There'll Be No More Subscribes I See It In Your Eyes...
Until That Day Until That Day Until That Day
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
471
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:36:00 -
[2057] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote: You bragged about exploiting the wardec changes. You knew they were going to be fixed, including a "get out of responsibility free" card in your post -- claiming if they were fixed, it was cause supposedly cried to CCP. They were fixed. You claimed we cried to CCP. Evidence that we actually were looking forward to the foreverwar was ignored in lieu of the lie pubbies tell themselves so they can sleep at night.
You need to stop falsely accusing people of "exploitng". We did absolutely nothing with wardecs that was not discussed in the inferno 1.0 wardec devblog. Unfortunately your director's publicly welcomed the 1.1 "cooling off inferno" changes in the various threads - your allies in TEST also. So while I do appreciate you need to put on a big brave "come at me bro" face when discussing wardecs - the reality is a little less pugnacious. Xython wrote: Let it go. The game isn't fair in such a way that a 100 man alliance can fight off a 7000 man alliance. Nor is it designed to be unbalanced in such a way. And trying to bleat and moan until CCP somehow makes it "fair" like that is never going to happen, because that's stupid on a level that almost matches the stupidity of people who run 23 ice miner bot accounts at the same time. So is it fair or unfair in favour of the largest alliances in the game that its going to be impossible for a defensive coalition to come close to matching the numbers an aggressor can bring to war for a nominal payment of 50m isk per week? I think you are mixing up definitions - is eve Fair (thus its unfair that small guys can fight back) or Unfair (but specially fair on the largest). I'm confused to be honest. I can't really decide whether eve is supposed to be "fair" or not. Or if its only supposed to be "fair" for some and "unfair" for others? Is "fairness" always something that benefits the largest? While "unfair" is what happens when the smaller defender finds a way to fight back? Xython wrote: If you want to fight Goonswarm like that, make your own alliance. Come visit VFK with 254 of your closest friends. We'll leave the light on for you. Hey you wardecced us. Don't try and slither away now with all that "come and fight us in 0.0 guff" - I did my best to arrange a welcoming committe for the swarm in hisec so don't go yellow on me when the milk turns sour.
Can we leave this discussion out of this thread, please?
That goes for all you goons posting about it too, tia.
RougeOperator wrote: It theoretically was an infinite money loop.
the real value is not important.
Theoretically, perhaps. In practice, it was dependent on items which we would have inevitably crashed, even if we had carefully hidden it and milked it for months/years. Infinite supply, finite demand, what does that do to price again? CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2496
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:38:00 -
[2058] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:
If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
Well, if you wouldn't "hire" any three person corp, with people barely able to press F1, onto your little wardec, you might find that actually hiring competent mercs might prove useful.
Hardly. The guys I've allowed into the wardec currently are kicking the goons into next year. Why the heck would I pay "competant" mercs a penny when the goons themselves only pay 50m a week?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:40:00 -
[2059] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:
If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
Well, if you wouldn't "hire" any three person corp, with people barely able to press F1, onto your little wardec, you might find that actually hiring competent mercs might prove useful. Hardly. The guys I've allowed into the wardec currently are kicking the goons into next year. Why the heck would I pay "competant" mercs a penny when the goons themselves only pay 50m a week?
I am just curious - where can I see the killboard for this war and why haven't I seen you ever at vfk?
To be clear I want to compare it to our other endeavors because unlike you, goonswarm is not afraid to lose a lot of ships to proove a point and, ultimately, win. But you are obviously too stupid to pick up on that. |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:40:00 -
[2060] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:5tn... hum... and yet we are nerfing data cores because it was too much isk. :\
no because it was passive (unlike moon goo)
Jade Constantine wrote:
So is it fair or unfair in favour of the largest alliances in the game that its going to be impossible for a defensive coalition to come close to matching the numbers an aggressor can bring to war for a nominal payment of 50m isk per week? I think you are mixing up definitions - is eve Fair (thus its unfair that small guys can fight back) or Unfair (but specially fair on the largest). I'm confused to be honest. I can't really decide whether eve is supposed to be "fair" or not. Or if its only supposed to be "fair" for some and "unfair" for others? Is "fairness" always something that benefits the largest? While "unfair" is what happens when the smaller defender finds a way to fight back?
Dammit I said that like 60 pages back lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:41:00 -
[2061] - Quote
Paint wrote:RougeOperator wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:RougeOperator wrote:So 900t to be able to name a system and its planets.
this was nowhere close to 900tn, it was "only" around 5tn It theoretically was an infinite money loop. the real value is not important. Ratting, Mission running and mining in high sec are infinite money loops. But hey as you claim the real money is not important right? Or maybe you are just a complete idiot.
We can't really compare Ratting or Mission Running to this issue. Bringing a freighter full of zydrine to a lvl 4 mission doesn't increase the LPs gained on the mission.
|
Powers Sa
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
231
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:43:00 -
[2062] - Quote
Both of the 100page controversy threads are about goonswarm :V |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:49:00 -
[2063] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Both of the 100page controversy threads are about goonswarm :V
You expected something else? You guys really need to hire a PR consultant.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:50:00 -
[2064] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Both of the 100page controversy threads are about goonswarm :V You expected something else? You guys really need to hire a PR consultant.
Are you available? |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:50:00 -
[2065] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Both of the 100page controversy threads are about goonswarm :V You expected something else? You guys really need to hire a PR consultant.
Any publicity is good publicity.
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2497
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:53:00 -
[2066] - Quote
Paint wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:
If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
Well, if you wouldn't "hire" any three person corp, with people barely able to press F1, onto your little wardec, you might find that actually hiring competent mercs might prove useful. Hardly. The guys I've allowed into the wardec currently are kicking the goons into next year. Why the heck would I pay "competant" mercs a penny when the goons themselves only pay 50m a week? I am just curious - where can I see the killboard for this war and why haven't I seen you ever at vfk? To be clear I want to compare it to our other endeavors because unlike you, goonswarm is not afraid to lose a lot of ships to proove a point and, ultimately, win. But you are obviously too stupid to pick up on that. edit - a very quick look at http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=7743&m=6&y=2012 shows little or no goon kills. Yep you sure are owning us all right.
Pretty much putting a bag over your heads and kicking your alliance down the stairs currently.
The Killboard is ingame and anyone can see it by searching for the "Goonswarm Federation vs The Star Fraction" war on the wars browser. Current situation is very much in our favour as you will see. Unfortunately CCP have decided to nerf defensive wardecs with the 1.1 patch so our allied coalition is unsustainable. By strange coincidence it will cost the princely sum of 5 Trillion ISK every 2 weeks if we wanted to continue the war on this scale.
As for why we haven't visited you in VFK. Well thats pretty straightforward. You WARDECCED US! That means you have to do the work and come and hunt your enemies not sit on your lazy moon-goo-sucking backsides like some kinda of Jabba-the-hutt crimelords while we come to you!
Good heavens, you chaps really don't understand this whole war thing.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
wastelandtraveler
Capital Industries Research And Development Fidelas Constans
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:54:00 -
[2067] - Quote
Paraguay had a new president Friday evening after its Senate voted to remove Fernando Lugo, whose political fortunes unraveled after a bloody confrontation between peasants and police. |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:55:00 -
[2068] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Both of the 100page controversy threads are about goonswarm :V You expected something else? You guys really need to hire a PR consultant.
http://www.reputation.com/
saw a commercial for these guys. Apparently mittens actually DOES need their services, or did when googling his name = cyberbullying cause we all know cyberbully = child molester http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:57:00 -
[2069] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote: Any publicity is good publicity.
You know, you should consider what became of the guy that originally said that. There is, indeed, bad Publicity.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:57:00 -
[2070] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Paint wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:
If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
Well, if you wouldn't "hire" any three person corp, with people barely able to press F1, onto your little wardec, you might find that actually hiring competent mercs might prove useful. Hardly. The guys I've allowed into the wardec currently are kicking the goons into next year. Why the heck would I pay "competant" mercs a penny when the goons themselves only pay 50m a week? I am just curious - where can I see the killboard for this war and why haven't I seen you ever at vfk? To be clear I want to compare it to our other endeavors because unlike you, goonswarm is not afraid to lose a lot of ships to proove a point and, ultimately, win. But you are obviously too stupid to pick up on that. edit - a very quick look at http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=7743&m=6&y=2012 shows little or no goon kills. Yep you sure are owning us all right. Pretty much putting a bag over your heads and kicking your alliance down the stairs currently. The Killboard is ingame and anyone can see it by searching for the "Goonswarm Federation vs The Star Fraction" war on the wars browser. Current situation is very much in our favour as you will see. Unfortunately CCP have decided to nerf defensive wardecs with the 1.1 patch so our allied coalition is unsustainable. By strange coincidence it will cost the princely sum of 5 Trillion ISK every 2 weeks if we wanted to continue the war on this scale. As for why we haven't visited you in VFK. Well thats pretty straightforward. You WARDECCED US! That means you have to do the work and come and hunt your enemies not sit on your lazy moon-goo-sucking backsides like some kinda of Jabba-the-hutt crimelords while we come to you! Good heavens, you chaps really don't understand this whole war thing.
So you have no kills. OK
|
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:02:00 -
[2071] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:http://www.reputation.com/saw a commercial for these guys. Apparently mittens actually DOES need their services, or did when googling his name = cyberbullying cause we all know cyberbully = child molester
Actually, if you google him, articles like this: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/6263/The-End-of-The-Mittani-Era.html
still top the list.
Goons need to create some positive press.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:03:00 -
[2072] - Quote
why would we want to go to hisec, what the hell guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you |
Commit Sudoku
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:04:00 -
[2073] - Quote
the last time we went to hisec some crazy **** went down and I went home with at least 15 pairs of panties that were not mine guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:05:00 -
[2074] - Quote
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=9&gs_id=3y&xhr=t&q=the+mittani&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=the+mitta&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=24bd4001b4cd61d4&biw=1920&bih=898
I got that http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
157
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:05:00 -
[2075] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote: Any publicity is good publicity.
Yes, this is the smartest way to handle the situation. Just take the difference of "before" and "after" and roll around in new subscriptions because people read that you can make 175k USD by blowing yourself up in a video game. A big media event like this once a month would be a huge boon. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:05:00 -
[2076] - Quote
Commit Sudoku wrote:why would we want to go to hisec, what the hell
According to current press releases: to punish all those that spoke in favor of The MIttani being banned for life for his gross violations of the cyberbullying laws of almost every nation in Northern Europe and the United States.
I assume that means you don't like someone there and have to go there to 'cyber bully' them.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:07:00 -
[2077] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJxiDrOvYwM&feature=player_embedded
it is pretty fun to watch the yellow - grows like a time lapse mold
what the hell happened in February of 2010? Goons dissapeared and were replaced by IT http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
471
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:08:00 -
[2078] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote: Any publicity is good publicity.
Yes, this is the smartest way to handle the situation. Just take the difference of "before" and "after" and roll around in new subscriptions because people read that you can make 175k USD by blowing yourself up in a video game. A big media event like this once a month would be a huge boon.
"Cool things happened in the sandbox", which is what this was, is good PR. "Cool things happened in the sandbox, but then players got punished for their legitimate actions" which, while the official verdict is still out (no statement from CCP yet, after all), is how many players perceive it, is not such good PR. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:10:00 -
[2079] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Commit Sudoku wrote:why would we want to go to hisec, what the hell According to current press releases: to punish all those that spoke in favor of The MIttani being banned for life for his gross violations of the cyberbullying laws of almost every nation in Northern Europe and the United States. I assume that means you don't like someone there and have to go there to 'cyber bully' them.
Wait a minute, you said a few posts back that we control CCP. Perhaps you are a bit confused. |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:10:00 -
[2080] - Quote
Commit Sudoku wrote:the last time we went to hisec some crazy **** went down and I went home with at least 15 pairs of panties that were not mine
Men's underwear are not called panties....
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:12:00 -
[2081] - Quote
corestwo wrote:"Cool things happened in the sandbox", which is what this was, is good PR. "Cool things happened in the sandbox, but then players got punished for their legitimate actions" which, while the official verdict is still out (no statement from CCP yet, after all), is how many players perceive it, is not such good PR.
Not so much. Goons are being tied to The Mittani's fanfest affair and the word 'investigation' appears in a lot of them. So, no, not good PR.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:13:00 -
[2082] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:corestwo wrote:"Cool things happened in the sandbox", which is what this was, is good PR. "Cool things happened in the sandbox, but then players got punished for their legitimate actions" which, while the official verdict is still out (no statement from CCP yet, after all), is how many players perceive it, is not such good PR. Not so much. Goons are being tied to The Mittani's fanfest affair and the word 'investigation' appears in a lot of them. So, no, not good PR.
Is English your first language? Mittani *is* a goon. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:15:00 -
[2083] - Quote
Paint wrote: Wait a minute, you said a few posts back that we control CCP. Perhaps you are a bit confused.
Paint, I have the feeling that everything that I say to you passes through a filter that increases it by an order of magnitude. I said that punishing you was unlikely because they think you'll mass quit if it were to happen, and they don't want to see any big spikes in subscriber loss, particularly right now with every other MMO showing a drop in subscriptions.
Paint wrote: Is English your first language? Mittani *is* a goon.
It's clearly not yours. The point was that they're starting to portray goons *in general* by the actions of a few. So, tell me what is good PR about being thought of by the gaming public at large as a group of cyberbullies who win by cheating at games?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:16:00 -
[2084] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Commit Sudoku wrote:the last time we went to hisec some crazy **** went down and I went home with at least 15 pairs of panties that were not mine Men's underwear are not called panties....
But it is so comfy.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:17:00 -
[2085] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Wait a minute, you said a few posts back that we control CCP. Perhaps you are a bit confused.
Paint, I have the feeling that everything that I say to you passes through a filter that increases it by an order of magnitude. I said that punishing you was unlikely because they think you'll mass quit if it were to happen, and they don't want to see any big spikes in subscriber loss, particularly right now with every other MMO showing a drop in subscriptions. Right, so you'd like to see goons unsub, right? Do your part by posting abo---
wait wait, it's only a few people who are actually affected. Most of us are looking for hilarious EVEO content, and BOY-OH-BOY does EVEO GD deliver! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:18:00 -
[2086] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Wait a minute, you said a few posts back that we control CCP. Perhaps you are a bit confused.
Paint, I have the feeling that everything that I say to you passes through a filter that increases it by an order of magnitude. I said that punishing you was unlikely because they think you'll mass quit if it were to happen, and they don't want to see any big spikes in subscriber loss, particularly right now with every other MMO showing a drop in subscriptions.
No the point is you are a gibbering idiot and you aren't making any sense at all. If you have not picked up on the fact that most people are outright laughing at you at this point you should probably seek help.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:19:00 -
[2087] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Wait a minute, you said a few posts back that we control CCP. Perhaps you are a bit confused.
Paint, I have the feeling that everything that I say to you passes through a filter that increases it by an order of magnitude. I said that punishing you was unlikely because they think you'll mass quit if it were to happen, and they don't want to see any big spikes in subscriber loss, particularly right now with every other MMO showing a drop in subscriptions.
Yeah punishment is unlikely mainly given the lack of punishment in other such circumstances in the past, AND the know on the payroll Goons currently working in the company now. They cant hurt their friends. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Aramatheia
European Nuthouse
46
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:20:00 -
[2088] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
i like how all i have to do is type "the mit" into google search bar and of the immediate suggestions "the mittani" is second on the drop down box lol |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:21:00 -
[2089] - Quote
Paint wrote: No the point is you are a gibbering idiot and you aren't making any sense at all. If you have not picked up on the fact that most people are outright laughing at you at this point you should probably seek help.
Really? Good, then my comedic endeavors are complete. Thank you, you've been an excellent straight man, for a, well, you know.
BTW: if they're laughing at me, it's odd, because quite a few seem to be, you know, agreeing with me.
Unless you mean, you know, your fellow goons. Since, they just laugh whenever Mittani turns on the 'Applaud you Sheep!' light, it really does not count for much.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:25:00 -
[2090] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Wait a minute, you said a few posts back that we control CCP. Perhaps you are a bit confused.
Paint, I have the feeling that everything that I say to you passes through a filter that increases it by an order of magnitude. I said that punishing you was unlikely because they think you'll mass quit if it were to happen, and they don't want to see any big spikes in subscriber loss, particularly right now with every other MMO showing a drop in subscriptions. Yeah punishment is unlikely mainly given the lack of punishment in other such circumstances in the past, AND the know on the payroll Goons currently working in the company now. They cant hurt their friends.
Good to know, I guess the Mittani Banning, and his removal from the csm as well as the asset seizures ongoing currently are just figments of our imagination.
Or maybe you are just an idiot.
|
|
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:25:00 -
[2091] - Quote
Aramatheia wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote: i like how all i have to do is type "the mit" into google search bar and of the immediate suggestions "the mittani" is second on the drop down box lol
Mitt Romney's wife calls him Mittens. I think the guy we know as The Mittani is just a smoke screen Or Romney wishes he were the real Mittens http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:27:00 -
[2092] - Quote
Paint wrote:Good to know, I guess the Mittani Banning, and his removal from the csm as well as the asset seizures ongoing currently are just figments of our imagination.
Or maybe you are just an idiot. Tanking CCP. We are good at it.
I think we're hulltanking them, at that. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:28:00 -
[2093] - Quote
Paint wrote:
Good to know, I guess the Mittani Banning, and his removal from the csm as well as the asset seizures ongoing currently are just figments of our imagination.
Or maybe you are just an idiot.
You mean how he just hops right back on the next time around and pretends like nothing ever happened?
Yeah great punishment there. 30 days ooooooooooo and yeah that twitter rage was such great type acting by the way.
btw when you pretend to punish someone who then pretends to feel feelings, its still pretend http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:29:00 -
[2094] - Quote
Paint wrote: Good to know, I guess the Mittani Banning,
A 30 banning is not what anyone else would have gotten. The EULA suggests a permaban
Paint wrote: ...and his removal from the csm...
He voluntarily stepped down originally, IIRC.
Paint wrote: ... as well as the asset seizures ongoing currently are just figments of our imagination.
Gee, cheat and get it confiscated. Again, beats the bans that members might have gotten if CCP ruled it an exploit.
Paint wrote:Or maybe you are just an idiot.
True, but we're not the ones getting off lightly and screaming about it.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:31:00 -
[2095] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Paint wrote:
Good to know, I guess the Mittani Banning, and his removal from the csm as well as the asset seizures ongoing currently are just figments of our imagination.
Or maybe you are just an idiot.
You mean how he just hops right back on the next time around and pretends like nothing ever happened? Yeah great punishment there. 30 days ooooooooooo and yeah that twitter rage was such great type acting by the way. btw when you pretend to punish someone who then pretends to feel feelings, its still pretend
Look, when you are a demi god like Mittani and you have the owner of CCP on speedial, you have to make some allowances.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:31:00 -
[2096] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: ...and his removal from the csm...
He voluntarily stepped down originally, IIRC.
and given it wasnt a perminant removal it hardly matters lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:32:00 -
[2097] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Good to know, I guess the Mittani Banning,
A 30 banning is not what anyone else would have gotten. The EULA suggests a permaban Paint wrote: ...and his removal from the csm...
He voluntarily stepped down originally, IIRC. Paint wrote: ... as well as the asset seizures ongoing currently are just figments of our imagination.
Gee, cheat and get it confiscated. Again, beats the bans that members might have gotten if CCP ruled it an exploit. Paint wrote:Or maybe you are just an idiot. True, but we're not the ones getting off lightly and screaming about it.
The real comedy here is no goons are upset at all. Only a handful are involved.
The real fun is poking idiot pond scum pubbies like yourself with a stick because you are too stupid to understand what is actually going on.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:32:00 -
[2098] - Quote
Paint wrote:Look, when you are a demi god like Mittani and you have the owner of CCP on speedial, you have to make some allowances. 'Mittani is only a demi god? But the posters said ... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:33:00 -
[2099] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Paint wrote:Look, when you are a demi god like Mittani and you have the owner of CCP on speedial, you have to make some allowances. 'Mittani is only a demi god? But the posters said ...
I have to baby step through this. He is in fact the God Emperor of eve in every sense of the word.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:35:00 -
[2100] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Paint wrote:Look, when you are a demi god like Mittani and you have the owner of CCP on speedial, you have to make some allowances. 'Mittani is only a demi god? But the posters said ...
And I thought it was IM... thats what I read
no wait I saw it earlier hold on... http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:36:00 -
[2101] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJxiDrOvYwM&feature=player_embedded
it is pretty fun to watch the yellow - grows like a time lapse mold
what the hell happened in February of 2010? Goons dissapeared and were replaced by IT
and then we got better space
not too bad a rogue goon |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
77
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:37:00 -
[2102] - Quote
Paint wrote: The real comedy here is no goons are upset at all. Only a handful are involved.
The real fun is poking idiot pond scum pubbies like yourself with a stick because you are too stupid to understand what is actually going on.
What I understand is that goonswarm have again succeeded in making themselves look like assholes and CCP look spineless in the public eye.
Again.
I'll just point out that you guys are playing a very stupid, and very dangerous game, for you. Eventually, someone at CCP is going to find themselves in a position where it's gonna be a choice between their job and giving goonswarm the heavy end of the hammer.
And I anticipate much tears and threadnaughts when they make their decision, because I doubt that you're going to like it.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:38:00 -
[2103] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: The real comedy here is no goons are upset at all. Only a handful are involved.
The real fun is poking idiot pond scum pubbies like yourself with a stick because you are too stupid to understand what is actually going on.
What I understand is that goonswarm have again succeeded in making themselves look like assholes and CCP look spineless in the public eye. Again. I'll just point out that you guys are playing a very stupid, and very dangerous game, for you. Eventually, someone at CCP is going to find themselves in a position where it's gonna be a choice between their job and giving goonswarm the heavy end of the hammer. And I anticipate much tears and threadnaughts when they make their decision, because I doubt that you're going to like it. I know you've love it. <3 Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:39:00 -
[2104] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Good to know, I guess the Mittani Banning,
A 30 banning is not what anyone else would have gotten. The EULA suggests a permaban
The EULA applies to outside of the game now? (Hint: No.)
The Mittani banning was a travesty of justice, only done because a bunch of buttmad sockpuppets started attacking the CCP / Sony partnership. It was a masterpiece of metagaming, but remember this: For all the frothy ranting about how "Goons want to destroy the game", when faced with the opportunity to attack Goons via literally trying to destroy the game, the Pubbies actually tried to ruin the game just to spite Goons.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: He voluntarily stepped down originally, IIRC.
Close. He stepped down from CSM6 knowing CSM7 was starting in a few days. CCP intentionally misread his post in order to suggest he was stepping down from CSM7 and, in a bit of a loophole, banned him at that time. Since they banned him at that exact time, he will be allowed to run for CSM8 -- which was very intentional on CCP's part.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Gee, cheat and get it confiscated. Again, beats the bans that members might have gotten if CCP ruled it an exploit.
You are intentionally missing the point. This is not about the "exploited" materials being seized. CCP is also seizing unrelated funds and resources. This would be like getting a warning for speeding and coming home to find your house impounded. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:40:00 -
[2105] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: The real comedy here is no goons are upset at all. Only a handful are involved.
The real fun is poking idiot pond scum pubbies like yourself with a stick because you are too stupid to understand what is actually going on.
What I understand is that goonswarm have again succeeded in making themselves look like assholes and CCP look spineless in the public eye. Again. I'll just point out that you guys are playing a very stupid, and very dangerous game, for you. Eventually, someone at CCP is going to find themselves in a position where it's gonna be a choice between their job and giving goonswarm the heavy end of the hammer. And I anticipate much tears and threadnaughts when they make their decision, because I doubt that you're going to like it.
Well we have been playing this game a very long time, this character, as an example, longer than you. So if KalMittani wants the blood of a few more Galente infants for his bath, who am I to say no?
|
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:41:00 -
[2106] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJxiDrOvYwM&feature=player_embedded
it is pretty fun to watch the yellow - grows like a time lapse mold
what the hell happened in February of 2010? Goons dissapeared and were replaced by IT and then we got better space not too bad
lol I actually didnt know, wasnt in the game yet, thx for the answer
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
77
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:41:00 -
[2107] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: I know you've love it. <3
I will admit that Paint's posts on the subject alone would be very humorous to read. I imagine that it would go something like:
'DAMMIT CCP! You promised us ETERNAL LIFE AND BIG TITTED NINJAS ON A PIKE! Why are you banning us! IT'S INCONCEIVABLE! We and WE ALONE dragged this game up out of the slime!'
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:42:00 -
[2108] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: The real comedy here is no goons are upset at all. Only a handful are involved.
The real fun is poking idiot pond scum pubbies like yourself with a stick because you are too stupid to understand what is actually going on.
What I understand is that goonswarm have again succeeded in making themselves look like assholes and CCP look spineless in the public eye. Again. I'll just point out that you guys are playing a very stupid, and very dangerous game, for you. Eventually, someone at CCP is going to find themselves in a position where it's gonna be a choice between their job and giving goonswarm the heavy end of the hammer. And I anticipate much tears and threadnaughts when they make their decision, because I doubt that you're going to like it.
Yeah but, again, the LAST TIME it was "somebody's job" or the game integrity, nothing happened and T20 left all on his own. It WONT HAPPEN http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:43:00 -
[2109] - Quote
Xython wrote:You are intentionally missing the point. This is not about the "exploited" materials being seized. CCP is also seizing unrelated funds and resources. This would be like getting a warning for speeding and coming home to find your house impounded. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened in reality, actually. In fact it probably has somewhere. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:43:00 -
[2110] - Quote
I doubt CCP would deem blowing up your own freighters filled with literally billions of ISK worth of loot to work the game mechanics for personal gain as "working as intended".
Should the mechanics have been tested better - they were probably tested adequately enough and i'm sure CCP were aware of the possibility this could happen - but they prob assumed that outliers in this magnitude would not be taken advantage of.... That was their mistake.
Its not "breaking the sandbox" to reverse any gains made by a few highly dedicated, organized and intelligent players, and any players who have received a donation from it.
I think the only question CCP are contemplating is whether or not bans are required for knowing a game mechanic could be used in such a way and taking advantage of it instead of doing the "right" thing and filing a detailed bug report - including the "uber spreadsheet".
The funny thing is that the guys involved are now minus all the ISK they invested with no profit to show.... Only gain is street (forum) credit for pulling off the heist. Which is all they Probably care about anyway.
I think its pretty cool what they did - congratz guys. But CCP do need to take your sack of loot i'm afraid :(
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:43:00 -
[2111] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: I know you've love it. <3
I will admit that Paint's posts on the subject alone would be very humorous to read. I imagine that it would go something like: 'DAMMIT CCP! You promised us ETERNAL LIFE AND BIG TITTED NINJAS ON A PIKE! Why are you banning us! IT'S INCONCEIVABLE! We and WE ALONE dragged this game up out of the slime!' What, they wouldn't forum ban us?
If you're going to go in that direction, go for the GOLD ~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:44:00 -
[2112] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: I know you've love it. <3
I will admit that Paint's posts on the subject alone would be very humorous to read. I imagine that it would go something like: 'DAMMIT CCP! You promised us ETERNAL LIFE AND BIG TITTED NINJAS ON A PIKE! Why are you banning us! IT'S INCONCEIVABLE! We and WE ALONE dragged this game up out of the slime!'
I would never make such a post, since, as you yourself claim, Mittani is essentially CCP at this point.
Oh the other hand you might just be a complete idiot.
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:44:00 -
[2113] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:And I anticipate much tears and threadnaughts when they make their decision, because I doubt that you're going to like it.
Yeah, we totally are in fear of CCP banning 7000+ players, most of which have at least 2 accounts, because some fusty boil-brained apple-john sockpuppet characters cried about us on the forums. Quaking in our boots. :)
Having said that, we actually do like CCP, we do love EVE, and we fight tooth and nail every day both to get new players to join, to make the experience memorable to those who "get it," and to keep the festering themepark fools from ruining the game we love.
Case in point: You guys might not remember killing your 10,000th Battleship Rat, but I can guarantee you you'll remember how Goons spun Faction Warfare into 5 trillion isk in a year. |
Antisocial Malkavian
GloboTech Industries GloboTech Trade Federation
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:44:00 -
[2114] - Quote
Xython wrote:
Close. He stepped down from CSM6 knowing CSM7 was starting in a few days. CCP intentionally misread his post in order to suggest he was stepping down from CSM7 and, in a bit of a loophole, banned him at that time. Since they banned him at that exact time, he will be allowed to run for CSM8 -- which was very intentional on CCP's part.
Careful, thats lookin like that rumory instaban territory
oh yer a goon nvm then http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Alex Skate
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:46:00 -
[2115] - Quote
Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Your weakness betreys you.
Death becomes you.
You see all that you desire; however, so few of you will achieve that which you desire.
There are sheep, and there are wolves.
Even the wolves have no idea that they are being led to a slaughter.
Prey tell, oh do tell.
I am not excluded in that which I type.
Goodday/night--to you all.
-J |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:46:00 -
[2116] - Quote
Xython wrote:Case in point: You guys might not remember killing your 10,000th Battleship Rat, but I can guarantee you you'll remember how Goons spun Faction Warfare into 5 trillion isk in a year. Let's see, at a mil each, that would be when I made 10billion from battleships ...
... oh goodness I think I've passed 10,000 Battleship rats... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:48:00 -
[2117] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Xython wrote:Case in point: You guys might not remember killing your 10,000th Battleship Rat, but I can guarantee you you'll remember how Goons spun Faction Warfare into 5 trillion isk in a year. Let's see, at a mil each, that would be when I made 10billion from battleships ... ... oh goodness I think I've passed 10,000 Battleship rats...
Depressing thought, isn't it?
I want more escalations. Different kinds of escalations. Dynamic anoms and complexes. CCP needs to hire a few interns and have them do nothing but design new anom layouts, darnit. I want to go to a Sanctum (haha, just kidding, no one does Sanctums anymore) and see 1 of 100 different layouts, each different. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:49:00 -
[2118] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote: I doubt CCP would deem blowing up your own freighters filled with literally billions of ISK worth of loot to work the game mechanics for personal gain as "working as intended".
Should the mechanics have been tested better - they were probably tested adequately enough and i'm sure CCP were aware of the possibility this could happen - but they prob assumed that outliers in this magnitude would not be taken advantage of.... That was their mistake.
Its not "breaking the sandbox" to reverse any gains made by a few highly dedicated, organized and intelligent players, and any players who have received a donation from it.
I think the only question CCP are contemplating is whether or not bans are required for knowing a game mechanic could be used in such a way and taking advantage of it instead of doing the "right" thing and filing a detailed bug report - including the "uber spreadsheet".
The funny thing is that the guys involved are now minus all the ISK they invested with no profit to show.... Only gain is street (forum) credit for pulling off the heist. Which is all they Probably care about anyway.
I think its pretty cool what they did - congratz guys. But CCP do need to take your sack of loot i'm afraid :(
Well the question is; if random jaggoff went an found an infinite money loop, used it to make 9 trillion isk, then told CCP; what would happen? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
80
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:49:00 -
[2119] - Quote
Paint wrote: Well we have been playing this game a very long time, this character, as an example, longer than you. So if KalMittani wants the blood of a few more Galente infants for his bath, who am I to say no?
No, paint, no you haven't. You played this game once, with that T20 business. And the people directly involved got permabanned. Back then, you had a lot more of us on your side, because, hey, we all hated BoB.
You seem to think that pissing off CCP = Playing EvE and it doesn't. Remember, this game is a sandbox until CCP says otherwise. Keep pissing them off. You think it's a pain when they take your assets? Wait till they start deleting characters.
They can, btw, do that, under the EULA.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
sinqlaison
Capital Builders Inc.
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:50:00 -
[2120] - Quote
Must say that I find the OP who did this a bit puzzling.
On one hand it takes a lot of smarts to find out the loophole and to devise a manner to make a lot of ISK from it.
On the other hand it is plain stupid then to brag about it like they did, and run the risk of losing all their gains and more.
Guess a psychiatrist in our midst must be able to reconcile these contrasting elements of 1 person's personality |
|
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:51:00 -
[2121] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:corestwo wrote:"Cool things happened in the sandbox", which is what this was, is good PR. "Cool things happened in the sandbox, but then players got punished for their legitimate actions" which, while the official verdict is still out (no statement from CCP yet, after all), is how many players perceive it, is not such good PR. Not so much. Goons are being tied to The Mittani's fanfest affair and the word 'investigation' appears in a lot of them. So, no, not good PR.
Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:53:00 -
[2122] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Not so much. Goons are being tied to The Mittani's fanfest affair and the word 'investigation' appears in a lot of them. So, no, not good PR. Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up. My my, I guess they'll be jumping into VFK to attack us right?
Oh no, they'll wait for CCP to ban us all. Opps. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
80
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:53:00 -
[2123] - Quote
Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Sorry, I've found eve players running to both ToR and WoT and most of them like it better there than they do here. Mind you, it's the carebears to TOR and the PvPers to WoT, but... yeah, sorry, EvE ain't smack, and even if it was, I can get my fix elsewhere.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:53:00 -
[2124] - Quote
sinqlaison wrote:Must say that I find the OP who did this a bit puzzling.
On one hand it takes a lot of smarts to find out the loophole and to devise a manner to make a lot of ISK from it.
On the other hand it is plain stupid then to brag about it like they did, and run the risk of losing all their gains and more.
Guess a psychiatrist in our midst must be able to reconcile these contrasting elements of 1 person's personality
Theyre not the first to do it nor are they the first to brag noe would they then be the first to not get punished tho I cant remember the guy that made the hundred plus thread about an exploit he found and the crusade ppl had to try and ban him http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:53:00 -
[2125] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote: I doubt CCP would deem blowing up your own freighters filled with literally billions of ISK worth of loot to work the game mechanics for personal gain as "working as intended".
Should the mechanics have been tested better - they were probably tested adequately enough and i'm sure CCP were aware of the possibility this could happen - but they prob assumed that outliers in this magnitude would not be taken advantage of.... That was their mistake.
Its not "breaking the sandbox" to reverse any gains made by a few highly dedicated, organized and intelligent players, and any players who have received a donation from it.
I think the only question CCP are contemplating is whether or not bans are required for knowing a game mechanic could be used in such a way and taking advantage of it instead of doing the "right" thing and filing a detailed bug report - including the "uber spreadsheet".
The funny thing is that the guys involved are now minus all the ISK they invested with no profit to show.... Only gain is street (forum) credit for pulling off the heist. Which is all they Probably care about anyway.
I think its pretty cool what they did - congratz guys. But CCP do need to take your sack of loot i'm afraid :(
Well the question is; if random jaggoff went an found an infinite money loop, used it to make 9 trillion isk, then told CCP; what would happen?
Good job on winning that ishtar bpo? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:54:00 -
[2126] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Sorry, I've found eve players running to both ToR and WoT and most of them like it better there than they do here. Mind you, it's the carebears to TOR and the PvPers to WoT, but... yeah, sorry, EvE ain't smack, and even if it was, I can get my fix elsewhere.
You forgot Mechwarrior online where the Goons themselves are going.
Including notable ones
http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/ http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
286
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:54:00 -
[2127] - Quote
Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Your weakness betreys you.
Death becomes you.
You see all that you desire; however, so few of you will achieve that which you desire.
There are sheep, and there are wolves.
Even the wolves have no idea that they are being led to a slaughter.
Prey tell, oh do tell.
I am not excluded in that which I type.
Goodday/night--to you all.
-J Your drugs.
I wants them.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
80
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:55:00 -
[2128] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote: Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up.
No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:56:00 -
[2129] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Gee, cheat and get it confiscated. Again, beats the bans that members might have gotten if CCP ruled it an exploit.
Oh, so CCP decided it was cheating? Last I read they were saying it technically wasn't a breach of the rules, and actually pretty typical of Eve players to play the system like that. Got a link to the latest decision? Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:57:00 -
[2130] - Quote
Events like this and many in the past have been, and should be taken on a case by case basis.
We wait with baited breath..... |
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:57:00 -
[2131] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Sorry, I've found eve players running to both ToR and WoT and most of them like it better there than they do here. Mind you, it's the carebears to TOR and the PvPers to WoT, but... yeah, sorry, EvE ain't smack, and even if it was, I can get my fix elsewhere. You forgot Mechwarrior online where the Goons themselves are going. Including notable ones http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/
Assuming you are not a fellow winder, the case can be made that like WOT and many other games, this is just goons being goons while waiting for an actual war or goons that don't play eve because it is so boring when you are not trolling pubbies.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
81
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:57:00 -
[2132] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Yeah, but I've found goons and test in World of Tanks as well. They likey their tank pew pew.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:58:00 -
[2133] - Quote
Paint wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Sorry, I've found eve players running to both ToR and WoT and most of them like it better there than they do here. Mind you, it's the carebears to TOR and the PvPers to WoT, but... yeah, sorry, EvE ain't smack, and even if it was, I can get my fix elsewhere. You forgot Mechwarrior online where the Goons themselves are going. Including notable ones http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/ Assuming you are not a fellow winder, the case can be made that like WOT and many other games, this is just goons being goons while waiting for an actual war or goons that don't play eve because it is so boring when you are not trolling pubbies.
Hey the question was asked... where would they go. Theres an answer WOT is another, there are many on the horizon too http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:59:00 -
[2134] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote: Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up.
No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players.
Considering the fire hose of new players trying to join goonswarm, it is obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about. At this point, I figure you are an alt of ours out to troll dumb pubbies and I salute you as such.
Because frankly, nobody else could be this dumb.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
81
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:59:00 -
[2135] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Hey the question was asked... where would they go. Theres an answer
Hunt them down in an E75. Or a Mad Cat. It's all the same to me.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:00:00 -
[2136] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote: Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up.
No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players. Considering the fire hose of new players trying to join goonswarm, it is obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about. At this point, I figure you are an alt of ours out to troll dumb pubbies and I salute you as such. Because frankly, nobody else could be this dumb.
damn how much does SA make? $12 x firehose? What IS $12 x a firehose anyways?
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Hey the question was asked... where would they go. Theres an answer
Hunt them down in an E75. Or a Mad Cat. It's all the same to me.
Yeah the difference there is we're on an even playing field and I like that http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:01:00 -
[2137] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote: Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up.
No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players.
Holy christ, you must be really comfortable in that echo chamber. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:02:00 -
[2138] - Quote
Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote: Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up.
No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players. Holy christ, you must be really comfortable in that echo chamber.
I was thinking the same after your post
But yeah man I wonder what Goon tears' salt would flavor your food like? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
81
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:03:00 -
[2139] - Quote
Paint wrote: Considering the fire hose of new players trying to join goonswarm, it is obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about. At this point, I figure you are an alt of ours out to troll dumb pubbies and I salute you as such.
Because frankly, nobody else could be this dumb.
Um, I might point out that every time an alliance is on top they have a firehose of applicants. Why? Because people are lazy and success takes effort.
Or they're alts of your enemies trying to get in to attempt to stab you in the ass. This is eve, after all.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:03:00 -
[2140] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: You seem to think that pissing off CCP = Playing EvE and it doesn't. Remember, this game is a sandbox until CCP says otherwise. Keep pissing them off. You think it's a pain when they take your assets? Wait till they start deleting characters.
They can, btw, do that, under the EULA.
You bring up a good point. If CCP took away my eve, I... I don't know what I'd do.
Oh God, one day, Eve will disappear anyway, what will I do then? All my ships and isk, buried in a storage closet on an obsolete hard drive, never to be undocked again... Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:05:00 -
[2141] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote: But yeah man I wonder what Goon tears' salt would flavor your food like?
If your goonswarm and loyal then you should try royal marine anyway it's clean but it tastes of wherever it's been!
Ironically: a bunch of former MC guys I'm on vent with just freaked. 'Cyg is singing Sweeny Todd again!' 'Healer is on stand by.'
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:06:00 -
[2142] - Quote
SO WHAT'S THE RECORD NUMBER OF PAGES IN AN EVE-O THREAD!?
IF YOU SHOUT LOUD ENOUGH, YOU MIGHT BE HEARD OVER THE WHARGHARBLE. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:06:00 -
[2143] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote: Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up.
No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players.
Huh. Guess it's time to finally gather the vast number of players who hate us into a giant alliance, fly up to VFK and finally drive us out of the game for good, eh?
Don't worry about wardec mechanics, we're in nullsec, you can shoot whoever you like. Concord doesn't babysit us out here. Should be a short and easy war for you.
That's VFK-IV folks, our staging system. Open and ready any time you've finally had enough of us and decide to actually handle it in-game instead of just whining and bitching to CCP on the forums to ban us for actually playing the game, but in a way you don't like.
We mostly shield tank, so gear up to take advantage of that. Best time to attack is probably EU time zone, since we have somewhat less people on during that time. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:11:00 -
[2144] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Gee, cheat and get it confiscated. Again, beats the bans that members might have gotten if CCP ruled it an exploit.
Oh, so CCP decided it was cheating? Last I read they were saying it technically wasn't a breach of the rules, and actually pretty typical of Eve players to play the system like that. Got a link to the latest decision?
Meh... It's 6:00AM in Iceland. They still have to wake up, get dress, drink some coffee, read the threadonaught... it will be some time before they issue any decision. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:11:00 -
[2145] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Huh. Guess it's time to finally gather the vast number of players who hate us into a giant alliance, fly up to VFK and finally drive us out of the game for good, eh?
Don't worry about wardec mechanics, we're in nullsec, you can shoot whoever you like. Concord doesn't babysit us out here. Should be a short and easy war for you.
That's VFK-IV folks, our staging system. Open and ready any time you've finally had enough of us and decide to actually handle it in-game instead of just whining and bitching to CCP on the forums to ban us for actually playing the game, but in a way you don't like.
Sun Tzu once wrote: if you wait by the river long enough, the body of your enemy will come floating by.
That said: why, I'm having a blast blasting you in other games. For free. Why should I pay CCP for the privilege of doing something in EvE I already do in WoT?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:12:00 -
[2146] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote: But yeah man I wonder what Goon tears' salt would flavor your food like?
If your goonswarm and loyal then you should try royal marine anyway it's clean but it tastes of wherever it's been! Ironically: a bunch of former MC guys I'm on vent with just freaked. 'Cyg is singing Sweeny Todd again!' 'Healer is on stand by.'
That but I was mostly talking about my sig lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:12:00 -
[2147] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Considering the fire hose of new players trying to join goonswarm, it is obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about. At this point, I figure you are an alt of ours out to troll dumb pubbies and I salute you as such.
Because frankly, nobody else could be this dumb.
Um, I might point out that every time an alliance is on top they have a firehose of applicants. Why? Because people are lazy and success takes effort. Or they're alts of your enemies trying to get in to attempt to stab you in the ass. This is eve, after all.
Which is why I laugh at you because you don't get goons. You have not the faintest clue what we are about.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1111
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:12:00 -
[2148] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players. Not the newbees. Aww poor newbee, did the evil people in the rookie systems tell you how bad you were when your app got approved?
Don't worry, it's all true and you'll LOVE IT TO DEATH. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:12:00 -
[2149] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote: Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up.
No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players. Huh. Guess it's time to finally gather the vast number of players who hate us into a giant alliance, fly up to VFK and finally drive us out of the game for good, eh? Don't worry about wardec mechanics, we're in nullsec, you can shoot whoever you like. Concord doesn't babysit us out here. Should be a short and easy war for you. That's VFK-IV folks, our staging system. Open and ready any time you've finally had enough of us and decide to actually handle it in-game instead of just whining and bitching to CCP on the forums to ban us for actually playing the game, but in a way you don't like. We mostly shield tank, so gear up to take advantage of that. Best time to attack is probably EU time zone, since we have somewhat less people on during that time.
oh what? forget the millions of supercaps and titans
so "come at me bro" doesnt work so its "come at me bro, in 0.0" now? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:13:00 -
[2150] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:
Huh. Guess it's time to finally gather the vast number of players who hate us into a giant alliance, fly up to VFK and finally drive us out of the game for good, eh?
Don't worry about wardec mechanics, we're in nullsec, you can shoot whoever you like. Concord doesn't babysit us out here. Should be a short and easy war for you.
That's VFK-IV folks, our staging system. Open and ready any time you've finally had enough of us and decide to actually handle it in-game instead of just whining and bitching to CCP on the forums to ban us for actually playing the game, but in a way you don't like.
Sun Tzu once wrote: if you wait by the river long enough, the body of your enemy will come floating by. That said: why, I'm having a blast blasting you in other games. For free. Why should I pay CCP for the privilege of doing something in EvE I already do in WoT?
Well the obvious point is that you should be posting on those game forums instead of crying here.
|
|
Alex Skate
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:13:00 -
[2151] - Quote
This thread is a comedy of errors.
It is a quite interesting look into the minds of players of MMORPGS when many players belive their virtual world is being turned upside down--in their own mind.
It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players that laugh at players that take a game too serious.
It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players that do not give a ****.
It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players that care about this game.
It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players.
Quite an interesting topic of study.
-J |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:14:00 -
[2152] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:
Huh. Guess it's time to finally gather the vast number of players who hate us into a giant alliance, fly up to VFK and finally drive us out of the game for good, eh?
Don't worry about wardec mechanics, we're in nullsec, you can shoot whoever you like. Concord doesn't babysit us out here. Should be a short and easy war for you.
That's VFK-IV folks, our staging system. Open and ready any time you've finally had enough of us and decide to actually handle it in-game instead of just whining and bitching to CCP on the forums to ban us for actually playing the game, but in a way you don't like.
Sun Tzu once wrote: if you wait by the river long enough, the body of your enemy will come floating by. That said: why, I'm having a blast blasting you in other games. For free. Why should I pay CCP for the privilege of doing something in EvE I already do in WoT?
I don't play World of Tanks. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:15:00 -
[2153] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Considering the fire hose of new players trying to join goonswarm, it is obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about. At this point, I figure you are an alt of ours out to troll dumb pubbies and I salute you as such.
Because frankly, nobody else could be this dumb.
Um, I might point out that every time an alliance is on top they have a firehose of applicants. Why? Because people are lazy and success takes effort. Or they're alts of your enemies trying to get in to attempt to stab you in the ass. This is eve, after all. Which is why I laugh at you because you don't get goons. You have not the faintest clue what we are about.
wheres that "were here to destroy your game" video when I need it -.- http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:15:00 -
[2154] - Quote
**** all ya'll |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:15:00 -
[2155] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:SO WHAT'S THE RECORD NUMBER OF PAGES IN AN EVE-O THREAD!?
IF YOU SHOUT LOUD ENOUGH, YOU MIGHT BE HEARD OVER THE WHARGHARBLE.
The "Like and get likes" thread is still like 50 pages bigger than this one. Everybody wants to be famous. |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:15:00 -
[2156] - Quote
p.e.n.is. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:16:00 -
[2157] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
oh what? forget the millions of supercaps and titans
so "come at me bro" doesnt work so its "come at me bro, in 0.0" now?
Can't do all the work for you. Get your own caps and supercaps.
And yeah, come at us. You want us gone, you're all just NPCs to us anyway, you can do whatever you like, but if you all hate goons their antics so much, yeah, come at us in 0.0. We have no reason to come to you. Stop being lazy. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1111
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:16:00 -
[2158] - Quote
Alex Skate wrote:This thread is a comedy of errors.
It is a quite interesting look into the minds of players of MMORPGS when many players belive their virtual world is being turned upside down--in their own mind.
It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players that laugh at players that take a game too serious.
It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players that do not give a ****.
It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players that care about this game.
It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players.
Quite an interesting topic of study.
-J
Alex Skate wrote:It is a quite interesting idea to look into the minds of players that laugh at players that take a game too serious. You mean psychopaths, right? And to take a leaf from a well known poster, it means you're like that in reality too.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:17:00 -
[2159] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Sun Tzu once wrote: if you wait by the river long enough, the body of your enemy will come floating by.
it took 100+ pages for the first unironic "sun tzu says" in the thread
amazing a rogue goon |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:17:00 -
[2160] - Quote
SERIAL KILLERS ARE UP IN MA EVE. TAKING MY LP AND ******* MY WIFE. |
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:18:00 -
[2161] - Quote
Here let me summarize the pubbies in this thread for you in a way you can easily understand/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6XtOWRCWA
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:18:00 -
[2162] - Quote
On some fundamental level, this game is completely absurd.
edit: cool two pages sniped in a row |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:20:00 -
[2163] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Sorry, I've found eve players running to both ToR and WoT and most of them like it better there than they do here. Mind you, it's the carebears to TOR and the PvPers to WoT, but... yeah, sorry, EvE ain't smack, and even if it was, I can get my fix elsewhere. You forgot Mechwarrior online where the Goons themselves are going. Including notable ones http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/ I hear that if you play Eve, you're literally not allowed to play any other games at all. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:20:00 -
[2164] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:
Huh. Guess it's time to finally gather the vast number of players who hate us into a giant alliance, fly up to VFK and finally drive us out of the game for good, eh?
Don't worry about wardec mechanics, we're in nullsec, you can shoot whoever you like. Concord doesn't babysit us out here. Should be a short and easy war for you.
That's VFK-IV folks, our staging system. Open and ready any time you've finally had enough of us and decide to actually handle it in-game instead of just whining and bitching to CCP on the forums to ban us for actually playing the game, but in a way you don't like.
Sun Tzu once wrote: if you wait by the river long enough, the body of your enemy will come floating by. That said: why, I'm having a blast blasting you in other games. For free. Why should I pay CCP for the privilege of doing something in EvE I already do in WoT?
lmbo |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
142
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:20:00 -
[2165] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
oh what? forget the millions of supercaps and titans
so "come at me bro" doesnt work so its "come at me bro, in 0.0" now?
Can't do all the work for you. Get your own caps and supercaps. And yeah, come at us. You want us gone, you're all just NPCs to us anyway, you can do whatever you like, but if you all hate goons their antics so much, yeah, come at us in 0.0. We have no reason to come to you. Stop being lazy.
Wait it used to be "come at be bro" via wardecs then when ppl did it gets mysteriously changed so now its come at me bro in 0.0 lol
roflmao... nah Ill stay in high sec, keep doing what I want, when I want and laugh at you and your exploits http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Alex Skate
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:25:00 -
[2166] - Quote
I did forget. Death becomes me.
Also,
What do the developers think of the players that play. When I type that, I do mean, with no disrespect: How do they see the players of this game?
Moreso, What do the developers and support staff think of the players?
Granted, many players do come off as ... well. We play this game. We know.
-J |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:26:00 -
[2167] - Quote
I think this internet argument has escalated to little asian girl and donkey screaming at each other .jpg |
Alex Skate
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:27:00 -
[2168] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Sorry, I've found eve players running to both ToR and WoT and most of them like it better there than they do here. Mind you, it's the carebears to TOR and the PvPers to WoT, but... yeah, sorry, EvE ain't smack, and even if it was, I can get my fix elsewhere. You forgot Mechwarrior online where the Goons themselves are going. Including notable ones http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/ I hear that if you play Eve, you're literally not allowed to play any other games at all.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:28:00 -
[2169] - Quote
In counter to paint's complaints about pubbies in this thread: goons on the fact they exploited and were then dumb enough to brag about it, getting all their ill gotten gains seized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6XtOWRCWA
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
247
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:29:00 -
[2170] - Quote
Alex Skate wrote:I did forget. Death becomes me.
Also,
What do the developers think of the players that play. When I type that, I do mean, with no disrespect: How do they see the players of this game?
Moreso, What do the developers and support staff think of the players?
Granted, many players do come off as ... well. We play this game. We know.
-J
I can see them split their sides laughing looking at kill boards: "We're really in the money today boys"
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:29:00 -
[2171] - Quote
AAIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE ALL MAD! REMOVE PENISES FROM ASSES NOW! HEAR THE FARTS! HEAR THE FARTS!
Beans, beans, the musical fruit The more you eat, the more you toot The more you toot, the better you feel So we have beans at every meal!1
or
Beans, beans, they're good for your heart The more you eat, the more you fart The more you fart, the happier/better you feel So let's eat beans with every meal1
or
Beans, beans, they're good for your heart The more you eat, the more you fart The more you fart, the more you eat The more you sit on the toilet seat
or
Beans, beans, they give you gas They make you fart, and burn your ass The more you eat, the more it hurts So slow down your eating to stop the squirts
Beans, beans, the magical fruit the more you eat the more you toot 1This line can also be replaced with: "So eat them beans at every meal"
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:30:00 -
[2172] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Wait it used to be "come at be bro" via wardecs then when ppl did it gets mysteriously changed so now its come at me bro in 0.0 lol
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/I_18fc1e_1960987.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Ad1AuHriI
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:30:00 -
[2173] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:In counter to paint's complaints about pubbies in this thread: goons on the fact they exploited and were then dumb enough to brag about it, getting all their ill gotten gains seized. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6XtOWRCWA
Can someone translate this gibberish? Seriously? |
Alex Skate
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:31:00 -
[2174] - Quote
Alex Skate wrote:corestwo wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Sorry, I've found eve players running to both ToR and WoT and most of them like it better there than they do here. Mind you, it's the carebears to TOR and the PvPers to WoT, but... yeah, sorry, EvE ain't smack, and even if it was, I can get my fix elsewhere. You forgot Mechwarrior online where the Goons themselves are going. Including notable ones http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/ I hear that if you play Eve, you're literally not allowed to play any other games at all.
To be honest, if i want real pvp and quick: I play Call of Duty. But, this game has the smartest players and brightest. For taht, I do not think I will leave anytime soon. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:32:00 -
[2175] - Quote
Paint wrote: Can someone translate this gibberish? Seriously?
It says 'Paint, put the crack pipe down.'
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:33:00 -
[2176] - Quote
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
P.E.N.I.S |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:34:00 -
[2177] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Can someone translate this gibberish? Seriously?
It says 'Paint, put the crack pipe down.'
No, it says help Cygnet is an idiot and needs medical care. And I am not kidding.
|
Elecktra Blue
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:35:00 -
[2178] - Quote
So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe? |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:36:00 -
[2179] - Quote
Let's all work together to raise the level of discourse |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:37:00 -
[2180] - Quote
Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe? Nice try nancy drew |
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:39:00 -
[2181] - Quote
I now own this thread. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:40:00 -
[2182] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:In counter to paint's complaints about pubbies in this thread: goons on the fact they exploited and were then dumb enough to brag about it, getting all their ill gotten gains seized. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6XtOWRCWA Can someone translate this gibberish? Seriously?
Anyone else have a hard time understanding the first post I made that Paint has a hard time grasping?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Elecktra Blue
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:41:00 -
[2183] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe? Nice try nancy drew
Not being Nancy Drew, it is a intelligent question. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
79
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:41:00 -
[2184] - Quote
Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe?
The only thing you'll get Jade to talk about is that stupid wardec gimick, and how any day now he will finally produce the killmails of a thousand goons killed by his ~elite~ mercs.
But if Jade did profit off fw the same way the Jewbal did, then some over zealous asset confiscation is definitely in order. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:41:00 -
[2185] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:I now own this thread.
Ok lets talk about how t2 bpo dwarf this by a factor of over three decimal points.
|
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
362
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:42:00 -
[2186] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Tread lightly Sreegs.
You ****** up, not the players.
The goons put LOTS of time and effort into making that isk. Do not treat them like RMTers.
If you take it back, it'll be the worst mistake CCP ever makes.
This wasn't a market exploit. It was sloppy game mechanic design. And you know it. And you're embarrassed. If you try to save your pride by taking back the isk people have made from this, the party will be over. The sandbox will finally be dead, and you may as well focus on CQ Space Barbies. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:42:00 -
[2187] - Quote
Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe?
Aight I'm gonna step in here and say stop being dumb, because all you're doing is letting Jade be smug over making yet another goon look dumb.
Jade, like many other players, profited off of this when our actions got them close enough to Tier 5 that they realized they could get the rest of the way there with a trivial outlay. Tier 5 happened, lots of players, including Jade, bought stuff at a quarter of "base" cost. None of them can be said in any way to have exploited or anything, and in any case the Tier 5 incident happened a week ago, if I recall, long before we approached CCP. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:42:00 -
[2188] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
The only thing you'll get Jade to talk about is that stupid wardec gimick, and how any day now he will finally produce the killmails of a thousand goons killed by his ~elite~ mercs.
But if Jade did profit off fw the same way the Jewbal did, then some over zealous asset confiscation is definitely in order.
In this, I agree, anyone what admits to having known about this exploit and quickly profited off it, should probably have their **** confiscated.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:43:00 -
[2189] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:In counter to paint's complaints about pubbies in this thread: goons on the fact they exploited and were then dumb enough to brag about it, getting all their ill gotten gains seized. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6XtOWRCWA Can someone translate this gibberish? Seriously? Anyone else have a hard time understanding the first post I made that Paint has a hard time grasping?
No, look everyone understands the problem except you. Blame your parents. You appear genetically incapable of anything beyond counting fingers and toes. |
Elecktra Blue
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:43:00 -
[2190] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe? Aight I'm gonna step in here and say stop being dumb, because all you're doing is letting Jade be smug over making yet another goon look dumb. Jade, like many other players, profited off of this when our actions got them close enough to Tier 5 that they realized they could get the rest of the way there with a trivial outlay. Tier 5 happened, lots of players, including Jade, bought stuff at a quarter of "base" cost. None of them can be said in any way to have exploited or anything, and in any case the Tier 5 incident happened a week ago, if I recall, long before we approached CCP. Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe? The only thing you'll get Jade to talk about is that stupid wardec gimick, and how any day now he will finally produce the killmails of a thousand goons killed by his ~elite~ mercs. But if Jade did profit off fw the same way the Jewbal did, then some over zealous asset confiscation is definitely in order. I thought we were friends :( This goes for you too.
|
|
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:44:00 -
[2191] - Quote
Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe?
IF that can be proven that they saw the leaked document - Can it be proven. |
Elecktra Blue
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:44:00 -
[2192] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe? IF that can be proven that they saw the leaked document - Can it be proven.
I just do not like Jade heh. |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:45:00 -
[2193] - Quote
So do you Goons coordinate the hand off of responses like a relay race or do you work it straight up as teams? Just smashing as many volleys as possible? |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:46:00 -
[2194] - Quote
Elecktra Blue wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe? IF that can be proven that they saw the leaked document - Can it be proven. I just do not like Jade heh.
And that he/her profit was made before seeing the leaked doc, Now- can that be proven? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:46:00 -
[2195] - Quote
Paint wrote: No, look everyone understands the problem except you. Blame your parents. You appear genetically incapable of anything beyond counting fingers and toes.
Paint, if that's your best troll on that, you should be ashamed of yourself. That's amateur league bullshit and I expect better of goons. You think that craptacular comeback would fly on 4chan? Something Awful?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:47:00 -
[2196] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:And that he/her profit was made before seeing the leaked doc, Now- can that be proven?
why the hell is this relevant a rogue goon |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:47:00 -
[2197] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote: And that he/her profit was made before seeing the leaked doc, Now- can that be proven?
Possibly. The document leaked via tweet, so a date and time are visible. If the eve transactions took place before that, well...
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:48:00 -
[2198] - Quote
ThisAryth wrote:CCP reacted quickly and patched this out, but the damage was done (not that it really mattered since it would merely have delayed the inevitable); the cabal had our GÇ£seedGÇ¥ LP. From here on out, the next step was to manipulate the outcome of Faction Warfare to dictate the tier level of the Minmatar faction. In order to cash out our illicit LP, Minmatar had to keep tier 4. We bought them into the tier over and over, rebuying each time they lost it and dropped into T3; eventually, 2 mega purchases launched them into T5. ItGÇÖs worth noting that the entire time, the :shobon: coalition of the terrible roleplayers and various other pubbies comprising the Minmatar faction thought they were doing this on their own. They were oblivious to the fact they would jump 50-70 points in a single hour. To the extent that anyone noticed at all, they attributed it to their own skill, clapping each other on the back in militia chat while the cabal laughed at them for being too stupid to notice what was literally under their noses. This also applied to Amarr. On a lark one of us went one morning and fully upgraded all 13 Amarr systems to level 5. The next day this was repeated along with the 2 systems they won from the day before, allowing the Amarr faction to finally hit T2. Of course they immediately lost it. With the gloating out of the way, we can move on to describing the actual hole in detail. Note that because this document has been posted, the specific mechanism by which this all works has been patched. In Inferno, a mechanic was added to award Loyalty Points (LP) based on the value of the ship that was killed. Implants, ship value, cargo, etc. The formula is as follows: FormulaThe GÇ£costGÇ¥ in this equation was CCPGÇÖs own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break -- CCPGÇÖs item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof. The trick was to control the process. We enlisted dummy characters in opposite factions, loaded up valuable items into a hauler, murdered the haulers with each otherGÇÖs alts, scooped the wrecks, and kept exploding the dropped stacks until none remained. We then converted the LP weGÇÖd been rewarded back into items from the FW store. Needless to say, some of the items in the LP store rewarded enough isk when sold on the market that the haulersGÇÖ mass assisted euthanasia was a profitable enterprise. The original babby step was to use hydromagnetic datacores. Hydrocores had a CCP Value of 317,000 ISK (pay attention to this number, because itGÇÖs important). When we bought Minmatar into Tier 4, we were rewarded with a 50% reduction in both LP and ISK cost of our purchases from their loyalty store, so one datacore from the LP store at Tier 4 cost 25 LP and 25,000 isk. When the hauler with the datacore inside was duly murdered by our Minmatar loyalist, it rewarded the murderer with 63.5 LP. Blowing up datacores in this manner grossed enough LP to cash out into implants (at 2000 ISK/LP) to cover the isk portion of the cost of the datacore, while still netting excess LP in the process. Essentially, we were able to convert ISK to LP at the rate of 1390 ISK per LP, then immediately sell the produced LP for 1.5 times what we paid. This process of turning LP items into more LP was given the terrible name of GÇ£dubsteppingGÇ¥ by Mynnna. We initially used this to liquidate all of our highend mineral holdings and start printing isk. We netted tens of millions of LP worth tens of billions of ISK. However, a crucial patch to Eve nerfed us by making cargo that dropped not net any LP, seemingly wrecking the plan by cutting our LP rewards in half and making it unprofitable. Not discouraged, we went back to the drawing board. and this |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:50:00 -
[2199] - Quote
important things are happening in this thread. many chins were scratched. many cigarettes were smoked. keep poasting so that the full might of your rage is known. rage on goons. rage on other people. rage on. rage on. welcome to eve, the ultimate Nerd Soap Opera. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:51:00 -
[2200] - Quote
Once again - Jade, and many others not involved, profited of of our actions when we got Minmatar tantalizingly close to Tier 5 and they finished the job. The document (which was just a google doc version of this post) didn't even EXIST at this point. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
|
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:51:00 -
[2201] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:So do you Goons coordinate the hand off of responses like a relay race or do you work it straight up as teams? Just smashing as many volleys as possible?
No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:52:00 -
[2202] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:welcome to eve, the ultimate Nerd Soap Opera.
I thought that was Dexter?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:53:00 -
[2203] - Quote
Paint wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote:So do you Goons coordinate the hand off of responses like a relay race or do you work it straight up as teams? Just smashing as many volleys as possible? No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone. yer pro troll. very very pro. many big rewards shall be yours |
Ribaldry
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:53:00 -
[2204] - Quote
Paint wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote:So do you Goons coordinate the hand off of responses like a relay race or do you work it straight up as teams? Just smashing as many volleys as possible? No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone.
I can't believe they let your **** posting go on at SA. . |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:53:00 -
[2205] - Quote
why the hell is this relevant[/quote]
Because these ppl were only taking advantage of artificially inflated system rating - (inflated by the ppl who were actually gaming the flawed game mechanics) - to get maximum benefit from the LP they had been holding, and not actually abusing the flawed mechanics themselves. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:54:00 -
[2206] - Quote
Paint wrote: No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone.
So, that means you're on the verge of collapsing into a human singularity then, you have so much mass?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:56:00 -
[2207] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: No, look everyone understands the problem except you. Blame your parents. You appear genetically incapable of anything beyond counting fingers and toes.
Paint, if that's your best troll on that, you should be ashamed of yourself. That's amateur league bullshit and I expect better of goons. You think that craptacular comeback would fly on 4chan? Something Awful?
No seriously, I worry for your mental health at this point. You seem to have a really loose grasp on reality. I don't like to repeat the obvious but seriously, you are a complete idiot.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:58:00 -
[2208] - Quote
Paint wrote: No seriously, I worry for your mental health at this point. You seem to have a really loose grasp on reality. I don't like to repeat the obvious but seriously, you are a complete idiot.
Paint, you've worked that angle before. You should know it has no bite. No pizazz. If you're going to troll me you need punch! Just calling me names shows you've got a weak hand. You need to TROLL not troll.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:58:00 -
[2209] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:No seriously, I worry for your mental health at this point. You seem to have a really loose grasp on reality. I don't like to repeat the obvious but seriously, you are a complete idiot.
seriously? rly? like rly rly srsly? |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:59:00 -
[2210] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:No seriously, I worry for your mental health at this point. You seem to have a really loose grasp on reality. I don't like to repeat the obvious but seriously, you are a complete idiot.
seriously? rly? like rly rly srsly? srsly? |
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:59:00 -
[2211] - Quote
so does mittens and friends put a bet on how long the thread will go? |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:59:00 -
[2212] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone.
So, that means you're on the verge of collapsing into a human singularity then, you have so much mass?
Uh oh, FAT PERSON DETECTED. YOU MAD BRO? How does it feel to be unloved, unwated, and unrespected? Looks like you know HA HA HA FAT FEKER>
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:00:00 -
[2213] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone.
So, that means you're on the verge of collapsing into a human singularity then, you have so much mass? Uh oh, FAT PERSON DETECTED. YOU MAD BRO? How does it feel to be unloved, unwated, and unrespected? Looks like you know HA HA HA FAT FEKER> you just can't get the rhythm down, can you? |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:01:00 -
[2214] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: No seriously, I worry for your mental health at this point. You seem to have a really loose grasp on reality. I don't like to repeat the obvious but seriously, you are a complete idiot.
Paint, you've worked that angle before. You should know it has no bite. No pizazz. If you're going to troll me you need punch! Just calling me names shows you've got a weak hand. You need to TROLL not troll.
So really how fat are you?
|
Ribaldry
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:01:00 -
[2215] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone.
So, that means you're on the verge of collapsing into a human singularity then, you have so much mass? Uh oh, FAT PERSON DETECTED. YOU MAD BRO? How does it feel to be unloved, unwated, and unrespected? Looks like you know HA HA HA FAT FEKER>
Sperg on, my friend. . |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:01:00 -
[2216] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote: seriously? rly? like rly rly srsly?
I really wish Mittens would butt in here. He's much better at this (usually) than most of tonight's contenders.
Goonswarm is getting rusty if this is their best trolling.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:01:00 -
[2217] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: No seriously, I worry for your mental health at this point. You seem to have a really loose grasp on reality. I don't like to repeat the obvious but seriously, you are a complete idiot.
Paint, you've worked that angle before. You should know it has no bite. No pizazz. If you're going to troll me you need punch! Just calling me names shows you've got a weak hand. You need to TROLL not troll. So really how fat are you? no. timing. srsly. none. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:01:00 -
[2218] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone.
So, that means you're on the verge of collapsing into a human singularity then, you have so much mass? Uh oh, FAT PERSON DETECTED. YOU MAD BRO? How does it feel to be unloved, unwated, and unrespected? Looks like you know HA HA HA FAT FEKER> you just can't get the rhythm down, can you?
I'm Sorry bro I will try to do better.
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:02:00 -
[2219] - Quote
Paint wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote:Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: No we do this based on how fat you are. You get points though for being extra flatulent. So you can't just be fat alone.
So, that means you're on the verge of collapsing into a human singularity then, you have so much mass? Uh oh, FAT PERSON DETECTED. YOU MAD BRO? How does it feel to be unloved, unwated, and unrespected? Looks like you know HA HA HA FAT FEKER> you just can't get the rhythm down, can you? I'm Sorry bro I will try to do better. sloooow |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:02:00 -
[2220] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote: seriously? rly? like rly rly srsly?
I really wish Mittens would butt in here. He's much better at this (usually) than most of tonight's contenders. Goonswarm is getting rusty if this is their best trolling.
Most of the last 20 pages isn't trolling so much as it's ****posting, really. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:03:00 -
[2221] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote: seriously? rly? like rly rly srsly?
I really wish Mittens would butt in here. He's much better at this (usually) than most of tonight's contenders. Goonswarm is getting rusty if this is their best trolling. Most of the last 20 pages isn't trolling so much as it's ****posting, really. glad you made your contribution to the pile |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:04:00 -
[2222] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote: seriously? rly? like rly rly srsly?
I really wish Mittens would butt in here. He's much better at this (usually) than most of tonight's contenders. Goonswarm is getting rusty if this is their best trolling.
So are we talking Orca fat or Blue whale fat here? Seriously I don't judge you on that basis alone, but it sure helps.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:04:00 -
[2223] - Quote
corestwo wrote: Most of the last 20 pages isn't trolling so much as it's ****posting, really.
So, did paint get that name from huffing? Because s(he)'s showing some serious signs of brain damage, based on these posts.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:05:00 -
[2224] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote: seriously? rly? like rly rly srsly?
I really wish Mittens would butt in here. He's much better at this (usually) than most of tonight's contenders. Goonswarm is getting rusty if this is their best trolling. So are we talking Orca fat or Blue whale fat here? Seriously I don't judge you on that basis alone, but it sure helps. when is the coach gonna call you back into the bullpen and put somone else up?
edit: YES! another page |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:06:00 -
[2225] - Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patter
you guys need more practice.
goodnight. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:07:00 -
[2226] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:corestwo wrote: Most of the last 20 pages isn't trolling so much as it's ****posting, really.
So, did paint get that name from huffing? Because s(he)'s showing some serious signs of brain damage, based on these posts. Paint, in answer to your inquiry, I'm 185cm and 114 kg approx. Not really what most people would consider fat.
No really dude how fat are you? Apparently you are a mega fat monster.
And let me say, unlike some, goons accept fatties. But you seem to have an issue. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:09:00 -
[2227] - Quote
Paint wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:corestwo wrote: Most of the last 20 pages isn't trolling so much as it's ****posting, really.
So, did paint get that name from huffing? Because s(he)'s showing some serious signs of brain damage, based on these posts. Paint, in answer to your inquiry, I'm 185cm and 114 kg approx. Not really what most people would consider fat. No really dude how fat are you? Apparently you are a mega fat monster.
Ok, enlighten me, how did all two of your brain cells come up with that one?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
4011
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:11:00 -
[2228] - Quote
That would explain why I got a few plexes in the mail the other day...
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:12:00 -
[2229] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:That would explain why I got a few plexes in the mail the other day...
That Paint was huffing and playing eve at the same time? Yeah, it would sort of make sense...
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:12:00 -
[2230] - Quote
the thread eaters are moving behind us now. they've awakened!!!
slowly the posts will be consumed.
The langoliers! the Langoliers! |
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:14:00 -
[2231] - Quote
okay. goodnight again.
thanks mods. we all had fun. sandbox, varied fun, yadda yadda. no hard feelings.
|
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:14:00 -
[2232] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:the thread eaters are moving behind us now. they've awakened!!!
slowly the posts will be consumed.
The langoliers! the Langoliers!
I noticed that. They must be like "Darn! It's gonna be one of those thread locking days :\".
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:16:00 -
[2233] - Quote
I was wondering how long it would take before the mods awoke.
I wonder if this abomination will finally get them to do something about goons, or will it be another age before the stars are again right, and the sunken city rises above the primal mystery of the deeps?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:17:00 -
[2234] - Quote
the speed is picking up. its like you can hear the tornado coming at you |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:18:00 -
[2235] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:I wonder if this abomination will finally get them to do something about goons, or will it be another age before the stars are again right, and the sunken city rises above the primal mystery of the deeps?
why should they "do something about goons" a rogue goon |
Kalicor Lightwind
Vigihan Zombie Ninja Space Bears
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:18:00 -
[2236] - Quote
I don't really understand why people are freaking out. They clearly exploited the intended use of the mechanic, that's not "emergent gameplay" that's "abuse" and "exploiting".
Really guys, taking an item and making the game think it's more valuable than it actually is in order to artificially inflate your LP gains - if that's not like a textbook definition of "exploiting" then I don't know what is. It's most definitely not the intended use of the mechanic (so thus also would violate the golden rule of gameplay). It was cheating and I hope CCP removes all of the illicit gains. |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:18:00 -
[2237] - Quote
i had lots of laughs. oddly. good luck goons. good night moon. everybody poops. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:19:00 -
[2238] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: why should they "do something about goons"
Because you made them look weak. Look, making CCP look like chumps is not a good thing. Sure, it's a nice quick laugh. The problem is that you then are putting them in a position where they have to get tough on you, or every player under the sun is going to say 'But you let Goons do it.'.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:20:00 -
[2239] - Quote
Kalicor Lightwind wrote:I don't really understand why people are freaking out. They clearly exploited the intended use of the mechanic, that's not "emergent gameplay" that's "abuse" and "exploiting".
Really guys, taking an item and making the game think it's more valuable than it actually is in order to artificially inflate your LP gains - if that's not like a textbook definition of "exploiting" then I don't know what is. It's most definitely not the intended use of the mechanic (so thus also would violate the golden rule of gameplay). It was cheating and I hope CCP removes all of the illicit gains.
a lot of mechanics are used in "unintended ways" a rogue goon |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:21:00 -
[2240] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Because you made them look weak. Look, making CCP look like chumps is not a good thing. Sure, it's a nice quick laugh. The problem is that you then are putting them in a position where they have to get tough on you, or every player under the sun is going to say 'But you let Goons do it.'.
how did I make them look weak? a rogue goon |
|
Nobani
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:21:00 -
[2241] - Quote
Hey, CCP, if you're changing the unintended mechanics retroactively now, is: - Goonswarm going to wake up with no ISK due to our Tech gains getting reversed. - Solar going to get some Titans reversed because the Drone Regions weren't intended to supplant mining as a source of high-ends? - High-sec towers going to spontaneously self-destruct because war-shedding wasn't intended? - Ships going to be reimbursed because Titans weren't intended to be able to track frigates? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:22:00 -
[2242] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:
how did I make them look weak?
You, personally, no idea. Goonswarm in general: exploiting the crap out of a mechanic that would have allowed them to produce near infinite isk, effectively breaking the market (and, in principal, EvE)?
Oh yeah, that made them look bad.
Do you know why players behave? Because GMs have a certain amount of respect. Now, you come along, you make CCP look weak. That costs the GMs respect.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:24:00 -
[2243] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:You, personally, no ideea. Goonswarm in general: exploiting the crap out of a mechanic that would have allowed them to produce near infinite isk, effectively breaking the market (and, in principal, EvE)? Oh yeah, that made them look bad.
Five guys are not "Goonswarm in general"
anything else a rogue goon |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:31:00 -
[2244] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:It did according to the first several pages of this thread.
Do you believe everything you read on this forum, especially from Goonswarm members?
I mean I get it you want to cherry-pick everything that benefits your argument but the fact is that they didn't distribute ISK to anybody because, well, it's their ISK. a rogue goon |
Nobani
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:31:00 -
[2245] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
how did I make them look weak?
You, personally, no ideea. Goonswarm in general: exploiting the crap out of a mechanic that would have allowed them to produce near infinite isk, effectively breaking the market (and, in principal, EvE)? Oh yeah, that made them look bad.
Well, ideally CCP would set up some queries to be run every downtime to check for abnormally high (or low) sales volumes of any items, large numbers of ship kills/losses by the same group of pilots, abnormal sudden increases in ISK, LP, items, and the like, which would be connected to a buzzer and giant red flashing light at CCP headquarters. They could then investigate and shut it down before things got out of control.
E.g.: High volumes of Guidance Systems, Pax Amarria, Faction Warfare LP, etc. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:33:00 -
[2246] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:It did according to the first several pages of this thread. I get it you want to cherry-pick everything that benefits your argument but the fact is that they didn't distribute ISK to anybody because, well, it's their ISK.
Sorry, when someone sits around and brags until suddenly there's consequences, and then all say 'well, that never happened, we have no idea where all this isk came from' reminds me of an old story about some armed robbers who had the money all laid out on the table and were counting it when the cops busted in.
"What money, officers?'
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:34:00 -
[2247] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Sorry, when someone sits around and brags until suddenly there's consequences, and then all say 'well, that never happened, we have no idea where all this isk came from' reminds me of an old story about some armed robbers who had the money all laid out on the table and were counting it when the cops busted in.
"What money, officers?'
I'm not faced with any consequences, no matter how much you insist on it, because I wasn't involved in this scheme myself in any way. Are you beginning to understand? a rogue goon |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:35:00 -
[2248] - Quote
Nobani wrote: Well, ideally CCP would set up some queries to be run every downtime to check for abnormally high (or low) sales volumes of any items, large numbers of ship kills/losses by the same group of pilots, abnormal sudden increases in ISK, LP, items, and the like, which would be connected to a buzzer and giant red flashing light at CCP headquarters. They could then investigate and shut it down before things got out of control.
E.g.: High volumes of Guidance Systems, Pax Amarria, Faction Warfare LP, etc.
Agreed, but that would mean programmers might get taken away from FiS and we all know what a shitstorm that causes.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:36:00 -
[2249] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I might point out that this never happened
It did according to the first several pages of this thread, back when dozens of goonswarm members were bragging about it?
It's almost as though goons reflexively troll and make **** up. If you want to take a few otherwise unsubstantiated posts as proof that something happened, though, be my guest. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:38:00 -
[2250] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:It did according to the first several pages of this thread. I get it you want to cherry-pick everything that benefits your argument but the fact is that they didn't distribute ISK to anybody because, well, it's their ISK. cherry pick is a favorite word of yours. variety is the spice of life.
its also a magazine |
|
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:39:00 -
[2251] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I might point out that this never happened
It did according to the first several pages of this thread, back when dozens of goonswarm members were bragging about it? It's almost as though goons reflexively troll and make **** up. If you want to take a few otherwise unsubstantiated posts as proof that something happened, though, be my guest. thats terrible |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:41:00 -
[2252] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:corestwo wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I might point out that this never happened
It did according to the first several pages of this thread, back when dozens of goonswarm members were bragging about it? It's almost as though goons reflexively troll and make **** up. If you want to take a few otherwise unsubstantiated posts as proof that something happened, though, be my guest. thats terrible
Didn't you say you were going to bed three or four pages ago? CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:42:00 -
[2253] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: I'm not faced with any consequences, no matter how much you insist on it, because I wasn't involved in this scheme myself in any way. Are you beginning to understand?
Guilt by association. One goon can make all of you look bad. It's that simple. That guy standing up with his goonswarm tag on proclaiming how he made a much more powerful entity then goons look bad? That makes all of you look bad.
If it was limited to the game, I wouldn't give a ****. But you are also making all the other players look bad as well. Do you know how much **** eve players take in other forums just because of that **** Mittens pulled at fan fest, followed by his ranting bullshit speeches?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:42:00 -
[2254] - Quote
corestwo wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote:corestwo wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I might point out that this never happened
It did according to the first several pages of this thread, back when dozens of goonswarm members were bragging about it? It's almost as though goons reflexively troll and make **** up. If you want to take a few otherwise unsubstantiated posts as proof that something happened, though, be my guest. thats terrible Didn't you say you were going to bed three or four pages ago? dance puppet dance! |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
478
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:48:00 -
[2255] - Quote
Morning, man this thread is just gonna keep on rollin ......
How many pages you think ?
Tal
|
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1448
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:50:00 -
[2256] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Morning, man this thread is just gonna keep on rollin ......
How many pages you think ?
Tal
Morning Tal. No clue, m running out of popcorn. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 07:53:00 -
[2257] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I'm not faced with any consequences, no matter how much you insist on it, because I wasn't involved in this scheme myself in any way. Are you beginning to understand?
Guilt by association. One goon can make all of you look bad. It's that simple. That guy standing up with his goonswarm tag on proclaiming how he made a much more powerful entity then goons look bad? That makes all of you look bad. If it was limited to the game, I wouldn't give a ****. But you are also making all the other players look bad as well. Do you know how much **** eve players take in other forums just because of that **** Mittens pulled at fan fest, followed by his ranting bullshit speeches?
Heh cool CCP should follow a "guilt by association" policy, that'll end well for them, punitive actions against entire alliances for the actions of a few members a rogue goon |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:12:00 -
[2258] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I'm not faced with any consequences, no matter how much you insist on it, because I wasn't involved in this scheme myself in any way. Are you beginning to understand?
Guilt by association. One goon can make all of you look bad. It's that simple. That guy standing up with his goonswarm tag on proclaiming how he made a much more powerful entity then goons look bad? That makes all of you look bad. If it was limited to the game, I wouldn't give a ****. But you are also making all the other players look bad as well. Do you know how much **** eve players take in other forums just because of that **** Mittens pulled at fan fest, followed by his ranting bullshit speeches? Heh cool CCP should follow a "guilt by association" policy, that'll end well for them, punitive actions against entire alliances for the actions of a few members
Ooh, I like this idea, I'll get an alt into World Welfare Works Association real quick and get the entire alliance banned for I dunno, posting rumors or something. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1111
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:15:00 -
[2259] - Quote
Xython wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Heh cool CCP should follow a "guilt by association" policy, that'll end well for them, punitive actions against entire alliances for the actions of a few members Ooh, I like this idea, I'll get an alt into World Welfare Works Association real quick and get the entire alliance banned for I dunno, posting rumors or something. Such a great opportunity to awox on a META scale ! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Leon Lichtenstein
Cimba Holding AG
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:34:00 -
[2260] - Quote
It feels not right. Most people are hard working for their ISK and some of them cant get enough to buy PLESK for the next Month. We have now a small group of people that can play EVE for free, like forever. LP Store was fail by design but using this as perpetuum mobiles to generate items - in a massiv amount - was a deliberate use of a BUG Maybe you will say its not a bug, but only a bug need a hotfix.
|
|
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:35:00 -
[2261] - Quote
Has anyone actually had their mind changed on their opinion about this? I mean from the 113 pages of debating back and forth. Or has everyone just entrenched in even further than they were before? |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
250
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:43:00 -
[2262] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
yes. exploit is exploit. ISK may not have been created from thin air, but LP was. Auction - EVE Rogues Alliance [ROGUE]: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438-á-á~ Latest bid: 190 million ISK. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:47:00 -
[2263] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:yes. exploit is exploit. ISK may not have been created from thin air, but LP was.
No it wasn't. It was created using the Faction Warfare system. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
807
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:48:00 -
[2264] - Quote
Only thing that would make this more epic is if they get banned for using macros to do all that LP item shopping. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
310
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:55:00 -
[2265] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Has anyone actually had their mind changed on their opinion about this? I mean from the 113 pages of debating back and forth. Or has everyone just entrenched in even further than they were before?
IT's never debating that goes on in here so i'd have a hard time believing even some might have changed their opinion along the way |
Cordata Jomar
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:59:00 -
[2266] - Quote
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvisir.is%2Fmisnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum%2Farticle%2F2012120629638&act=url
I'm just going to leave this here. However, let me leave you a quick TL:DR, for those of you too lazy to actually expend the effort of clicking on a link.
Quote: p+¬tur aka CCP Xhagen says. "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done." |
Kwa Zulu
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:11:00 -
[2267] - Quote
this thread is delicious |
Haifisch Zahne
HZ Corp
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:42:00 -
[2268] - Quote
Probably said somewhere in the depths of the prior 114 pages of posts, but...
You played right into CCP's hands!
At Fanfest, CCP stated it was there intent to reduce the rampant inflation by:
* Removing ISK from the game using the established ISK sinks. DONE. You Goons fed CCP's ISK sinks with market orders, and, I imagine, as partial payment for those LP store purchases.
Good job, Goons. You played into CCP's hands. You reduced inflation, AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.
* You have successfully flooded the market with Goods. Less ISK, more Goods. You Goons have played into CCP's (unmentioned) goal to increase Goods (to bolster the other half of the Eve Balance Sheet) in order to reduce rampant inflation. (By the looks of it, you exchanged worthless Goods for high-value Goods, at a marginal cost. And, you Goons destroyed vast mineral reserves, another CCP goal.) Just as we saw a huge drop in prices on skill books and the other items *given away by CCP* for the 9th anniversary of Eve, we shall be able to mark this day, Goon's Fool Day, as the day that prices plummeted in Eve, making your investment worth less.
Good job, Goons. You played into CCP's hands. You reduced inflation, AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.
3) Simply on the face of it, you paid less for the items than the general market rate. This is, by very definition, deflation.
Good job, Goons.
(But, no, really, good job. Excellent gaming the system. Just too bad you PLAYED INTO CCP's HANDS AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.) |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
202
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:50:00 -
[2269] - Quote
Yes it was CCP's plan all along to release a system with a major loophole knowing a small number of Goons would find it and make absurd amounts of ISK. All along. They are the puppetmasters and you are the puppets.
It's so clear now. |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 09:53:00 -
[2270] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? yes. exploit is exploit. ISK may not have been created from thin air, but LP was.
Same thin air I get LP from when completing any mission |
|
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
534
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:05:00 -
[2271] - Quote
Only thing that will happen is they plug any holes found by some Goons, the Goons get to keep their ISK which was made by the exploit by calling it something else. A bit of whaahaahaa and it get's hushed down. In the best case scenario they will find a scapegoat to blame and mess him all over. The scapegoat will be most likely a character that is stopping anyways or just a black goat char made a while ago to be used for things like this.
|
J3ssica Biel
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:11:00 -
[2272] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:Probably said somewhere in the depths of the prior 114 pages of posts, but...
You played right into CCP's hands!
At Fanfest, CCP stated it was there intent to reduce the rampant inflation by:
* Removing ISK from the game using the established ISK sinks. DONE. You Goons fed CCP's ISK sinks with market orders fees, and, I imagine, as partial payment for those LP store purchases.
Good job, Goons. You played into CCP's hands. You reduced inflation, AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.
* You have successfully flooded the market with Goods. Less ISK, more Goods. You Goons have played into CCP's (unmentioned) goal to increase Goods (to bolster the other half of the Eve Balance Sheet) in order to reduce rampant inflation. (By the looks of it, you exchanged worthless Goods for high-value Goods, at a marginal cost. And, you Goons destroyed vast mineral reserves, another CCP goal.) Just as we saw a huge drop in prices on skill books and the other items *given away by CCP* for the 9th anniversary of Eve, we shall be able to mark this day, Goon's Fool Day, as the day that prices plummeted in Eve, making your investment worth less.
Good job, Goons. You played into CCP's hands. You reduced inflation, AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.
* Simply on the face of it, you paid less for the items than the general market rate. This is, by very definition, deflation.
Good job, Goons.
(But, no, really, good job. Excellent gaming the system. Just too bad you PLAYED INTO CCP's HANDS AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.) Tinfoil Hat |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
250
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:19:00 -
[2273] - Quote
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? yes. exploit is exploit. ISK may not have been created from thin air, but LP was. Same thin air I get LP from when completing any mission
Not quite. The exploit is database manipulation if you read the OP. Basically, they inflated the database value of a bunch of items and/or ships that were infrequently purchased or used, then had them blown up and calculated for LP based on the inflated database value of the items/ships.
That's LP rom nothing. Not the same as LP rewards from missions and the like which are calculated based on set amounts from a table.
tl;dr:
Create a fake database value to be used in FW LP reward calculation for ship kills, then go inject fake database number into calculation for LP by killing a ship with fake database number in cargo or as ship. Sell LP and Profit. Auction - EVE Rogues Alliance [ROGUE]: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438-á-á~ Latest bid: 190 million ISK. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:28:00 -
[2274] - Quote
That's a pretty loaded word there! a rogue goon |
Doc Mulder
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:30:00 -
[2275] - Quote
cool story bro.
Whatever...
If someone really has 300 trillion ISK they made from this I would think they would become bored shitless. No more challenges in game... |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:31:00 -
[2276] - Quote
Doc Mulder wrote:cool story bro.
Whatever...
If someone really has 300 trillion ISK they made from this I would think they would become bored shitless. No more challenges in game...
Where do people keep getting these numbers? a rogue goon |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
479
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 10:59:00 -
[2277] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Doc Mulder wrote:cool story bro.
Whatever...
If someone really has 300 trillion ISK they made from this I would think they would become bored shitless. No more challenges in game... Where do people keep getting these numbers?
beginning of the thread somewhere ...
Tal
|
Bolow Santosi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:06:00 -
[2278] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:
Create a fake database value to be used in FW LP reward calculation for ship kills, then go inject fake database number into calculation for LP by killing a ship with fake database number in cargo or as ship. Sell LP and Profit.
They never created a fake database value. They inflated slow moving/stagnant items and manipulated them to be significantly higher so they could generate LP more efficiently and effectively. Nothing about that is fake. |
Tergerom Loregeron
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:10:00 -
[2279] - Quote
Cordata Jomar wrote:http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvisir.is%2Fmisnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum%2Farticle%2F2012120629638&act=url I'm just going to leave this here. However, let me leave you a quick TL:DR, for those of you too lazy to actually expend the effort of clicking on a link. Quote: p+¬tur aka CCP Xhagen says. "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done."
So which side is really representative for CCP? The head or the ass? Seems to me that the ass is winning this time around, and we all know the ass doesn't have any brains. |
Saturn Boomer
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:38:00 -
[2280] - Quote
And there was me thinking I was a money making genius. I got nothing on this guy.
I tip my hat to you sir.
-Boomer Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. -á |
|
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 11:52:00 -
[2281] - Quote
Entirely CCPs fault. Good to see all the goon haters spewing fake indignation and calling for bans though. |
Monita Fea
Sanguine Enteprises
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:06:00 -
[2282] - Quote
Simply brilliant!
PS Send me moneyz plz, i'm poor :( |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:37:00 -
[2283] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:Probably said somewhere in the depths of the prior 114 pages of posts, but...
You played right into CCP's hands!
At Fanfest, CCP stated it was there intent to reduce the rampant inflation by:
* Removing ISK from the game using the established ISK sinks. DONE. You Goons fed CCP's ISK sinks with market orders fees, and, I imagine, as partial payment for those LP store purchases.
Good job, Goons. You played into CCP's hands. You reduced inflation, AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.
* You have successfully flooded the market with Goods. Less ISK, more Goods. You Goons have played into CCP's (unmentioned) goal to increase Goods (to bolster the other half of the Eve Balance Sheet) in order to reduce rampant inflation. (By the looks of it, you exchanged worthless Goods for high-value Goods, at a marginal cost. And, you Goons destroyed vast mineral reserves, another CCP goal.) Just as we saw a huge drop in prices on skill books and the other items *given away by CCP* for the 9th anniversary of Eve, we shall be able to mark this day, Goon's Fool Day, as the day that prices plummeted in Eve, making your investment worth less.
Good job, Goons. You played into CCP's hands. You reduced inflation, AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.
* Simply on the face of it, you paid less for the items than the general market rate. This is, by very definition, deflation.
Good job, Goons.
(But, no, really, good job. Excellent gaming the system. Just too bad you PLAYED INTO CCP's HANDS AND MADE YOUR INVESTMENT WORTH LESS.)
I'm worried, though, do you think they played into CCP's hands? Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
CruxArc
Black Souls Industries
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 12:56:00 -
[2284] - Quote
Before Inferno FW was a joke, now it's a SAD joke (sarcasm) Good job CCP! CruxArc- ex amarr |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:10:00 -
[2285] - Quote
CCP really need their PR people to have a word with their developers and mods and tell them that knee-jerk reactions and vindictive posting are more likely to generate negative press and inflict damage on the company's reputation than measured, considered and respectful responses.
Or hell, perhaps CCP just need some PR people in the first place; it's blindingly obvious that they don't know how to manage their game and don't know how to manage expectations and reactions in the outside world.
But continue blaming the players for mistakes you made CCP. I'm sure your reputation as hands-off-developers who let the players dictate the content will last into perpetuity, no matter how reactionary your responses are. |
Prandax Xeon
Rapier Innovations
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:11:00 -
[2286] - Quote
CCP screws up! Goons make tons of isk! CCP takes it all away! Goons make tons of tears!
Best week ever, I'll resub! How is a Wyvern like an Ibis?-á Neither have a drone bay!-á-á |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
392
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:13:00 -
[2287] - Quote
Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1563
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:16:00 -
[2288] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same.
Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest.
Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists". "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:18:00 -
[2289] - Quote
i admire someones ability to see the market and make profit. That been said, I do hate the hypocracy of goons calling high sec nerf to incursions while at the same time runing a permanent suicide on hulks and on top of that exploiting the market!
I remember a few years back, the mitani in his speach talking about how Ev0ke in the past exploited the moons cos of some "feature" and how Ev0ke made big isk back then. He spoke with as much hatred as we have witnessed him speaking about the DRF at their height of power. Funny how its ok for them to exploit the market because of some "feature" BUT its NOT ok when sombody else does it, like Ev0ke!!
This is why CCP should not pay attention to goons. If they cry for something, you can be sure they are are making money somehow from it. The mitani being part of the CSM in the past does not help me in anyway to trust him now even less. To be the lead of the CSM in the past and at the same time do this, its over use of position. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
394
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:18:00 -
[2290] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same. Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".
Thanks for the reply. I will sit tight and be dark most of the weekend due to RL. So no posting spree for me. Radio silence for me.
Again thanks for the reply, we didn't know what/why. This clears things up a lot. |
|
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:22:00 -
[2291] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it? Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
395
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:27:00 -
[2292] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it?
Well, to be fair to Sreegs. He didn't say exploit. He said abuse. Maybe it's semantics, but the devil is in the details sometimes. Goona throw down a few more posts before I am out. This is some good drama. ROLLERCOASTER |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1171
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:30:00 -
[2293] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:i admire someones ability to see the market and make profit. That been said, I do hate the hypocracy of goons calling high sec nerf to incursions while at the same time runing a permanent suicide on hulks and on top of that exploiting the market!
what's the hypocrisy there? a rogue goon |
Natasha Fatality
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:31:00 -
[2294] - Quote
This is really the most fascinating thread I can remember reading in a long time. I feel lucky to have just gotten into EVE right as this is all going down. It seems like a really pivotal moment for the game's community. I have to admit, I really want to become a Goon myself at this point. :) |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:32:00 -
[2295] - Quote
i like the reasoning for their action, CCP hasn't gone totally mad. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
642
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:32:00 -
[2296] - Quote
Bolow Santosi wrote:Mars Theran wrote:
Create a fake database value to be used in FW LP reward calculation for ship kills, then go inject fake database number into calculation for LP by killing a ship with fake database number in cargo or as ship. Sell LP and Profit.
They never created a fake database value. They inflated slow moving/stagnant items and manipulated them to be significantly higher so they could generate LP more efficiently and effectively. Nothing about that is fake.
If this had been player vs player manipulation CCP would not have batted an eye. Where these goons erred was making it player vs CCP manipulation.
This is no different than the snake oil salesmen that frequent your local church pushing their faith healing. Government doesn't care. Now, try selling government such a service, expect to get the smack down.
Goon tears best tears. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
395
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:32:00 -
[2297] - Quote
Natasha Fatality wrote:This is really the most fascinating thread I can remember reading in a long time. I feel lucky to have just gotten into EVE right as this is all going down. It seems like a really pivotal moment for the game's community. I have to admit, I really want to become a Goon myself at this point. :)
it really is turning into one of those moments that define EVE. Sure I am biased, but doesn't everyone like a happy ending?
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:33:00 -
[2298] - Quote
Natasha Fatality wrote:This is really the most fascinating thread I can remember reading in a long time. I feel lucky to have just gotten into EVE right as this is all going down. It seems like a really pivotal moment for the game's community. I have to admit, I really want to become a Goon myself at this point. :)
no you don't, this is much better as a spectator sport :P |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:33:00 -
[2299] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i admire someones ability to see the market and make profit. That been said, I do hate the hypocracy of goons calling high sec nerf to incursions while at the same time runing a permanent suicide on hulks and on top of that exploiting the market! what's the hypocrisy there?
read further into the post and then you see the hypocracy |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
395
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:34:00 -
[2300] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Bolow Santosi wrote:Mars Theran wrote:
Create a fake database value to be used in FW LP reward calculation for ship kills, then go inject fake database number into calculation for LP by killing a ship with fake database number in cargo or as ship. Sell LP and Profit.
They never created a fake database value. They inflated slow moving/stagnant items and manipulated them to be significantly higher so they could generate LP more efficiently and effectively. Nothing about that is fake. If this had been player vs player manipulation CCP would not have batted an eye. Where these goons erred was making it player vs CCP manipulation. This is no different than the snake oil salesmen that frequent your local church pushing their faith healing. Government doesn't care. Now, try selling government such a service, expect to get the smack down. Goon tears best tears.
Not quite. If we had been selling items to NPC orders, that would have been Goons vs CCP. However, all the ISK involved either came from our own wallets (hundreds of billions) or from the market orders of public traders (hundreds of billions). Since no ISK was created, it was only transferring wealth between players, not so much CCP printing ISK. ISK was lost. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1171
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:35:00 -
[2301] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i admire someones ability to see the market and make profit. That been said, I do hate the hypocracy of goons calling high sec nerf to incursions while at the same time runing a permanent suicide on hulks and on top of that exploiting the market! what's the hypocrisy there? read further into the post and then you see the hypocracy
because this is very much like covertly duping ferrogel for months a rogue goon |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:35:00 -
[2302] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i admire someones ability to see the market and make profit. That been said, I do hate the hypocracy of goons calling high sec nerf to incursions while at the same time runing a permanent suicide on hulks and on top of that exploiting the market! what's the hypocrisy there? read further into the post and then you see the hypocracy
We are running suicide ganks on hulks as a form of market manipulation. See lowends. I am not sure if that makes it a good or worse thing to you to know there is an ulterior motive, but there you go. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
539
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:36:00 -
[2303] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote: nerf to incursions............. exploiting the market! what's the hypocrisy there?
Clearer? Incursions were rebalanced after CCP decided, and rightly so, that the Incursion mechanic was in need of fixing owing to people making obscene amounts of ISK, the same applies to the FW mechanic. Thus hypocrisy. I'm not going to take sides in your argument, I just thought a little clarification was needed. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Natasha Fatality
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:36:00 -
[2304] - Quote
Aryth wrote:it really is turning into one of those moments that define EVE. Sure I am biased, but doesn't everyone like a happy ending?
Everyone likes drama, at least. This is just a tad bit more entertaining than, say, the Winter's Veil bullshit in WoW. :P
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1171
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:37:00 -
[2305] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote: nerf to incursions............. exploiting the market! what's the hypocrisy there? Clearer?
that's not hypocrisy a rogue goon |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
539
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:39:00 -
[2306] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote: nerf to incursions............. exploiting the market! what's the hypocrisy there? Clearer? that's not hypocrisy
I posted too early and have since modified my answer. I should also point out that I am not taking sides here. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:40:00 -
[2307] - Quote
Can I get a list of things I can legitimately do in game so I don't get banned? |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:41:00 -
[2308] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i admire someones ability to see the market and make profit. That been said, I do hate the hypocracy of goons calling high sec nerf to incursions while at the same time runing a permanent suicide on hulks and on top of that exploiting the market! what's the hypocrisy there? read further into the post and then you see the hypocracy because this is very much like covertly duping ferrogel for months
its funny how you are trying to ignore the second paragraph of my original post.... |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:45:00 -
[2309] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:I remember a few years back, the mitani in his speach talking about how Ev0ke in the past exploited the moons cos of some "feature" and how Ev0ke made big isk back then. He spoke with as much hatred as we have witnessed him speaking about the DRF at their height of power. Funny how its ok for them to exploit the market because of some "feature" BUT its NOT ok when sombody else does it, like Ev0ke!! funny how you think abusing a code bug is exactly the same as "abusing" an unintended gameplay design decision Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
405
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:45:00 -
[2310] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:CCP really need their PR people to have a word with their developers and mods and tell them that knee-jerk reactions and vindictive posting are more likely to generate negative press and inflict damage on the company's reputation than measured, considered and respectful responses.
Or hell, perhaps CCP just need some PR people in the first place; it's blindingly obvious that they don't know how to manage their game and don't know how to manage expectations and reactions in the outside world.
But continue blaming the players for mistakes you made CCP. I'm sure your reputation as hands-off-developers who let the players dictate the content will last into perpetuity, no matter how reactionary your responses are.
Oh please. Grow up. You guys got your noses rubbed in it the way you rub other people's noses in it. Trotting out the PR argument? Really? People all over gaming will rejoice to see the Goons humbled. If anything this will help CCP's image.
Goonswarm brought this right down on its own head. No sympathy. But it is very nice to watch you all squirm. |
|
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
405
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:46:00 -
[2311] - Quote
Quote: funny how you think abusing a code bug is exactly the same as "abusing" an unintended gameplay design decision
Funny how you think it's not. |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:47:00 -
[2312] - Quote
fyi this is like people "abusing" ingame insurance payouts when they were higher than the cost of the exploded ship. guess who haven't gotten their "ill-gotten" ISK taken away Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:48:00 -
[2313] - Quote
Greetings
All I have to say is WOW freaking awesome! You have to love it when a plan comes together. High Fives all around and you guys are buying forever!
vr East IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES: -á" I drank WHAT?!" |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:48:00 -
[2314] - Quote
in fact the insurance fraud was even worse for the economy because it injected ISK into it out of thin air. but I'm not going to discuss ISK sinks and faucets in this thread because there's like 10 people on this board who understand what those are Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
250
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:50:00 -
[2315] - Quote
Bolow Santosi wrote:Mars Theran wrote:
Create a fake database value to be used in FW LP reward calculation for ship kills, then go inject fake database number into calculation for LP by killing a ship with fake database number in cargo or as ship. Sell LP and Profit.
They never created a fake database value. They inflated slow moving/stagnant items and manipulated them to be significantly higher so they could generate LP more efficiently and effectively. Nothing about that is fake.
I fail to see your logic as you fail to see mine apparently.
Flipping an item back and forth between alts in some backwater system for 250 thousand times, (random multiple for the sake of clarity), what it is worth to register it at that inflated value in CCPs database that tracks item values based on market movement over a period of time, (in this case stated as 90 days in the OP), so that you can then blow up said item and have the database call return that inflated value for use in a calculation that determines the amount of LP to reward for the related kill based on the ISK value of objects destroyed is what it is, an exploit.
It's also creating a fake database value using open, (i.e: sandbox), game mechanics. In case you haven't figured it out, that is practically the definition of an exploit.
I have no way of determining to what extent that particular exploit was used, but the OP himself stated quite clearly in the OP that he and his cabal did it early on when they were aware that dropped value was also being calculated, (which they took equal advantage of), and though he didn't say as much, he did state that they had to rethink, (i.e: recalculate profitable means), after that was fixed.
He didn't state that he stopped using it, and quite obviously it was still in use or the whole thing would have been without purpose as they would have been relying on nothing more than market trends and the base calculation which wasn't flawed provided that everything relied on uninflated, normal markets and database values.
I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1571
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:52:00 -
[2316] - Quote
This thread keeps getting worse and worse. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness The Mockers AO
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:57:00 -
[2317] - Quote
Such is the Cost of Hubris.
CEO-á Monocle Madness ~ Mega-Insane Lotteries for the Mentally Unstable http://www.monoclemadness.com |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
204
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 13:57:00 -
[2318] - Quote
Thank you Goons for exposing the truly amazing extent of exploitative Shadow Play in the game of EVE, along with the simultaneous revelation of the utter incompetence of CCP in regards to monitoring the economic heartbeat of this once great game.
"Trust No One" indeed.
Now that players are fleeing to other activities (thank goodness it didn't kill the entire Summer), who will be left to be the next victims ?
Boy, when EVE's end came around, it sure was quick and sudden. Just like in Real Life. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1375
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:00:00 -
[2319] - Quote
Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :) |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
586
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:05:00 -
[2320] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Natasha Fatality wrote:This is really the most fascinating thread I can remember reading in a long time. I feel lucky to have just gotten into EVE right as this is all going down. It seems like a really pivotal moment for the game's community. I have to admit, I really want to become a Goon myself at this point. :) it really is turning into one of those moments that define EVE. Sure I am biased, but doesn't everyone like a happy ending? There are many different "happy endings" to this story. One of them involves giving the power to a single player to completely destroy the LP market for a foreseeable future as a reward for abusing the **** out of a design flaw. I kind of like that idea since I believe that most of your LP is from the Minmatar FW store - it brings a little divine justice to the game. But I am not sure that would mean a "happy ending" for EVE or most of its players.
|
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Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:06:00 -
[2321] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :) Again, the takeaway is to file a bug report and NOT to abuse the bug/bad design. If it hadn't been abused, there wouldn't be any repercussions. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1569
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:06:00 -
[2322] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it?
Me.
Xhagen had no access to any information and is not involved in the investigative process. You can basically use any article written about this thus far for toilet paper as anything contained within the articles is fantasy invented by the bloggers writing the articles. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1569
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:07:00 -
[2323] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :)
That would be remarkably stupid. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Benedic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:11:00 -
[2324] - Quote
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
381
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:13:00 -
[2325] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Oh please. Grow up. You guys got your noses rubbed in it the way you rub other people's noses in it. Trotting out the PR argument? Really? People all over gaming will rejoice to see the Goons humbled. If anything this will help CCP's image. :whitehat: Nothing Found |
M Expedience
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:15:00 -
[2326] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:Can I get a list of things I can legitimately do in game so I don't get banned?
By asking, you have already violated the list. |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
586
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:15:00 -
[2327] - Quote
Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. I am pretty sure they designed the mechanics with the intention to give a fair market value of items. The coding sucked though.
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1151
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:15:00 -
[2328] - Quote
Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.
I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:16:00 -
[2329] - Quote
Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.
I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
586
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:17:00 -
[2330] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.
I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX Abusing the game on a scale that can break it is not a security issue? |
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1151
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:20:00 -
[2331] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.
I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX Abusing the game on a scale that can break it is not a security issue?
game wasn't abused to the extent of breaking it, the dudes involved told CCP about the manipulation and stopped it. it was a programming issue. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:21:00 -
[2332] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Lexmana wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.
I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX Abusing the game on a scale that can break it is not a security issue? game wasn't abused to the extent of breaking it, the dudes involved told CCP about the manipulation and stopped it. it was a programming issue.
Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
201
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:22:00 -
[2333] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vile rat wrote:Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :) That would be remarkably stupid. why?
the ferrogel exploit went on for at least 1.5 years without CCP interference
seems like one can keep these things going for quite some time as long as one doesn't overdo it (as goons did in this case) and tbh the cost of a few accounts isn't much of a deterrent considering the potential rewards.
My interpretation is that the jewbal guys hoped they would get to keep part of the proceeds as long as they are open about what they did, don't try to launder any of the wealth they gained through this mechanic and blow the whistle (see ev0ke example).
But when the choice is between "make crazy profit for a few weeks, blow the whistle and get the proceeds subsequently removed" and "make steady profit for several months, launder the proceeds and get your account eventually banned" the choice isn't hard.
|
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1449
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:23:00 -
[2334] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it?
Me. Xhagen had no access to any information and is not involved in the investigative process. You can basically use any article written about this thus far for toilet paper as anything contained within the articles is fantasy invented by the bloggers writing the articles.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vile rat wrote:Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :) That would be remarkably stupid.
CCP Sreegs wrote: I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
Pure ownage. I'm so hot for you now Sreegs. G¥ñ |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:24:00 -
[2335] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Vile rat wrote:Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :) That would be remarkably stupid. why? the ferrogel exploit went on for at least 1.5 years without CCP interference seems like one can keep these things going for quite some time as long as one doesn't overdo it (as goons did in this case) and tbh the cost of a few accounts isn't much of a deterrent considering the potential rewards. My interpretation is that the jewbal guys hoped they would get to keep part of the proceeds as long as they are open about what they did, don't try to launder any of the wealth they gained through this mechanic and make sure they are the first ones to blow the whistle (see ev0ke example). But when the choice is between "make crazy profit for a few weeks, blow the whistle and get the proceeds subsequently removed" and "make steady profit for several months, launder the proceeds and get your account eventually banned" the choice isn't hard.
In the scenario you paint the punishment would be significantly more severe. I can't speak to the ferrogel exploit as I didn't work here at the time. I can only speak to what I'm responsible for. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:24:00 -
[2336] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". you mean, as disturbing as allowing an issue like this to be deployed on to the live servers? |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:26:00 -
[2337] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
425
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:26:00 -
[2338] - Quote
Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.
i dunno... this was a new feature and usually when its being introduced there are aspects of it that ccp does not intend to be features... obviously this was one of them which is why they hot fixed it when they did...
pretty much what goons did was find someones wallet and inside of it was a winning lotto ticket... instead of returning it they cashed it in...
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1588
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:28:00 -
[2339] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game.
By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:29:00 -
[2340] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
You seem pretty mad that a group of players are smarter than you.
Weird. |
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Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:29:00 -
[2341] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date.
Aryth had unrelated datacores pulled from his inventory, c/d?
CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
Well of course you are within your rights, it's your game. SOE was entirely within their rights when they deployed NGE, too. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:30:00 -
[2342] - Quote
On a side note, I am curious if CCP Sreegs or another could mention just how much ISK has been permanently removed from the game from all the abused tactics, their anti-botting warfare tactics, RMTing, and other dastardly affairs. While I am not stating that this episode made certain people guilty since I do not have all the facts (thread increased about a hundred pages since I last checked), if CCP decides to remove the five trillion ISK from some members of Goons, is that a drop in the ocean or is that a huge amount gone from the game?
Curious for curiousity sake - thanks. |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:32:00 -
[2343] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. So what does a programming issue mean? Bugs? Game mechanics having unexpected results? Fear God and Thread Nought |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:34:00 -
[2344] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. So what does a programming issue mean? Bugs? Game mechanics having unexpected results?
Programming issue in this case was a formula that they published publically and then were told that it would be abused and ignored everyone.
Then once it was abused, they punished those who did it.
darius JOHNSON at his finest, ladies and gentlemen. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
425
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:35:00 -
[2345] - Quote
Haquer wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. So what does a programming issue mean? Bugs? Game mechanics having unexpected results? Programming issue in this case was a formula that they published publically and then were told that it would be abused and ignored everyone. Then once it was abused, they punished those who did it. darius JOHNSON at his finest, ladies and gentlemen.
i dunno but something tells me goons are upset... PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1591
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:36:00 -
[2346] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. Aryth had unrelated datacores pulled from his inventory, c/d? CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Well of course you are within your rights, it's your game. SOE was entirely within their rights when they deployed NGE, too.
That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:36:00 -
[2347] - Quote
Since I haven't got a list yet, maybe you can c/d mine?
So far it has things you can't do: - Embarrass CCP - Play the market TOO well - Read the Dev Blog and use that info. |
Nephilim Xeno
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:36:00 -
[2348] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
Minmatar Milita is STILL printing isk non stop as we speak.
So unless you acknowledge the current FW mechanics are a bug/loophole/exploit (which they pretty much are for a certain milita) then there is really no justification to ban anyone else that has used this mechanics to earn isk.
Many players tried to tell CCP not to go live with this FW changed because it is completly flawed but CCP did not listen at all !
Once the new FW changes were announced it was OBVIOUS that the minnie milita would become the biggest isk printing machine in eve and now you want to ban ppl for using it to print too much isk ?
If you do so then you better ban/punish everyone in the minnie milita altogether that actually profited from this.
Also are there any plans to undo the damage done to the amarr milita by all this crap ? |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:37:00 -
[2349] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed. The difference is that all of the components of this alleged exploit were working exactly as designed. You've always been able to manipulate the market. Shooting ships to get LP for the value of their cargo was what was stated on the devblog regarding the FW changes. So was upgrading the FW systems with LP to get lower prices from the LP store. The only thing that wasn't intended was a combination of all of these factors. This is entirely different from duping ferrogel, where it was never designed you could react stuff without using the inputs. It's closer to the insurance fraud scheme, where a working design (shoot ship, get insurance payout) was "abused" because you got more than the ship was worth. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
David Carel
Perkone Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:38:00 -
[2350] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Haquer wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. So what does a programming issue mean? Bugs? Game mechanics having unexpected results? Programming issue in this case was a formula that they published publically and then were told that it would be abused and ignored everyone. Then once it was abused, they punished those who did it. darius JOHNSON at his finest, ladies and gentlemen. i dunno but something tells me goons are upset... Are you telling me you wouldn't be upset in the same situation? |
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:38:00 -
[2351] - Quote
Nephilim Xeno wrote:Once the new FW changes were announced it was OBVIOUS that the minnie milita would become the biggest isk printing machine in eve and now you want to ban ppl for using it to print too much isk ?
don't get so bent out of shape, they just took steps to stop a market crash not steps to alienate players. |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:40:00 -
[2352] - Quote
Are you going to take Jade Constantine's much vaunted 8.7b isk away too? That money was - apparently - gained using the same methods as The Goonswarm Five. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
468
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:40:00 -
[2353] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.
I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX
Why are the police outside?!? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:41:00 -
[2354] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:The Goonswarm Five. haha, are they releasing an album and is one of them going to change their skin colour? |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1591
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:41:00 -
[2355] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed. The difference is that all of the components of this alleged exploit were working exactly as designed. You've always been able to manipulate the market. Shooting ships to get LP for the value of their cargo was what was stated on the devblog regarding the FW changes. So was upgrading the FW systems with LP to get lower prices from the LP store. The only thing that wasn't intended was a combination of all of these factors. This is entirely different from duping ferrogel, where it was never designed you could react stuff without using the inputs. It's closer to the insurance fraud scheme, where a working design (shoot ship, get insurance payout) was "abused" because you got more than the ship was worth.
If we make a correction it clearly wasn't what we intended. You're not manipulating the price so much as taking advantage of time lapses in the calculation of value which pins a different currency to a seldom-changing somewhat arbitrary number that you can set. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
586
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:41:00 -
[2356] - Quote
Nephilim Xeno wrote:Also are there any plans to undo the damage done to the amarr milita by all this crap ? My guess is HTFU! But a temporary discount in the 24th LP store to balance things would be a nice gesture from the emperor to the loyal militia fighters during these hard times.
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
425
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:42:00 -
[2357] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:Since I haven't got a list yet, maybe you can c/d mine?
So far it has things you can't do: - Embarrass CCP - Play the market TOO well - Read the Dev Blog and use that info.
What dont goons get it is a new feature and you have to give it a while before they fix all the unintended errors...
just face it you guys helped with fixing the game...
now get back to being teribad at the game... PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Sun Win
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:43:00 -
[2358] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Are you going to take Jade Constantine's much vaunted 8.7b isk away too? That money was - apparently - gained using the same methods as The Goonswarm Five.
A million times this. We poor Amarrian faction warriors have suffered for too long under the boot of Jade Constantine's ill-gotten Stabbers Fleet Issue. |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:44:00 -
[2359] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed. The difference is that all of the components of this alleged exploit were working exactly as designed. You've always been able to manipulate the market. Shooting ships to get LP for the value of their cargo was what was stated on the devblog regarding the FW changes. So was upgrading the FW systems with LP to get lower prices from the LP store. The only thing that wasn't intended was a combination of all of these factors. This is entirely different from duping ferrogel, where it was never designed you could react stuff without using the inputs. It's closer to the insurance fraud scheme, where a working design (shoot ship, get insurance payout) was "abused" because you got more than the ship was worth. If we make a correction it clearly wasn't what we intended. You're not manipulating the price so much as taking advantage of time lapses in the calculation of value which pins a different currency to a seldom-changing somewhat arbitrary number that you can set.
They manipulated the market to change a number that you intentionally seldomly changed. This is somehow the player's faults and their assets should be seized. I get it!
I finally see the light. Thanks. |
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:44:00 -
[2360] - Quote
Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1172
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:45:00 -
[2361] - Quote
remember when the contract UI date of creation rather than price by default
and how a few dudes basically gamed the hell out of that with CN BCS
is there really a difference? a rogue goon |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1596
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:47:00 -
[2362] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care.
We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:48:00 -
[2363] - Quote
Aryth wrote: The party came to an immediate end after the T5 cashout occured.
Isn't the answer in plain sight? T5 cashout? 5 trillion? or 5 trillionaires?
I've seen people throwing out all kinds of numbers. Hundreds of billions. Hundreds of trillions. And a few goons saying pssht.... 20 billion.
Peanuts.
I don't have to know the total of the haul to be pretty confident that it was more than 20 billion.
It wouldn't have been described as something being:
Aryth wrote:released with a literal currency fountain, very nearly without limit.
or an op having
Aryth wrote: succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
without hauling in more than a few billion isk.
The wildest dreams of the megalomaniacal overlords of EvE only consist of 20 billion isk? What's wrong with you people? Trillions minimum. Or it wouldn't be worth this level of gloating nor the mantle:
Aryth wrote:The revamp to Faction Warfare in Inferno was the single biggest mistake CCP has ever made.
And who cares whether it's an exploit. You guys crack me up. 115 pages of debating whether it's an exploit? We're in a sandbox and these geniuses just robbed you all. And worse, told you he robbed you all, and some of you are cheering that fact. Are you happy that you got robbed? Or are you celebrating Goon intellectual dominance?
I think it's great that there are people testing these boundaries and I hope they continue to do so. It's a compliment to the intelligence level of this game's playerbase that these types of incidents occur at all.
But we're playing a game here and we're all in a sandbox, interconnected. So as I'm not an idiot, I'm less enthralled by the act than the genuis behind it.
As I was just robbed, I'm admittedly biased.
So I'm gonna roll with supporting confiscation of the loot.
Sorry dudes.
Players can currently buy two PLEX for 35 dollars from CCP and sell them in game for ~ a billion isk. If the haul was anywhere near 5 trillion isk (which may even be lowballing it) it would be the isk equivalent of 175,000 US dollars.
People shouldn't be able to buy two-story homes because CCP erred. It's the level of abuse that warrants the CCP response.
Gameplay isn't meant to be fair but the rules governing it are. It may have been possible to do this, but as it was never CCP's intent to break their game this way, it was never legal. Your lotto machine went off by accident. It happens. People sue. They usually end up with a settlement.
And I'm sure you will. If you're really all that, you've dispersed those funds so completely, through so many transactions, buying and selling items at a frenzied pace, jus' swarmin' that swarm, that it'll never totally be accounted for anyway.
How could you not also have predicted CCP's response in advance?
Yonis Kador ... |
Benedic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:48:00 -
[2364] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit.
An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit.
I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players. |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:48:00 -
[2365] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:If we make a correction it clearly wasn't what we intended. I'm well aware that this manipulation wasn't what you intended. I'm just arguing that this is qualitatively different from the ferrogel exploit, and thus retroactive punishment isn't warranted at all. I'm also aware that you haven't yet decided whether or not to punish Aryth et al., I'm just expressing my views on the matter so you can (or not) take them into account when you make your decision. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
426
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:49:00 -
[2366] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods.
omg darius can i haz your internet babies!
you just made my day...
sitting here at work reading this is just epic... better then any sat morning cartoon!
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
David Carel
Perkone Caldari State
260
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:49:00 -
[2367] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods.
Holy **** you're upset. Did somebody **** in your cheerios? |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:51:00 -
[2368] - Quote
Contribution to threadnaught :
The point that Screegs is missing is that all previous exploits have, to my knowledge, been covert. The ferrogel thing, rat manipulation (if any of you remember back that far) and the wormhole -1 tracking thing etc.
Instead CCP wandered in, posted a "We're doing this and this and this.", some very smart players saw that and did the math and used that to their advantage in a seriously massive way.
It might not be the definition of what CCP considers and exploit or what the capsuleer population considers legitimate gameplay.
CCP has basically wandered into town with a billboard strapped to them that reads "If you're very smart and can be bothered here's a set of systems we are implementing that can make you astronomically rich." and now they are removing those profits.
There was no such announcement of ferrogel etc. This is the same as profiting from Technetium of PI in my opinion. You announced it, they read it, they took advantage of it.
Just because CCP didn't smart up and see the impact of what they are implementing (protip: They never do) doesn't mean the playerbase didn't. |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
406
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:51:00 -
[2369] - Quote
Amazing that you guys really think you can spin your way out of this and pretend it's not within CCP's rights to correct this. Listen to the gnashing of teeth and the moaning about the Holy Sandbox. All to justify doing something the perps knew was on the edge of game-legal. The fact that it was not working as intended by the devs is all over OP's original post. The guy even says later that it would have been a disaster to let this become a known mechanic for other people to manipulate in later posts.
Goons have thousands of members wringing their hands and weeping about the fact that they were called on their crap for a change. This is the best thread ever, even better than the one that got Mittani banned.
Goons can justify any kind of behavior that suits them. They're better than the US Republican party. These guys must work on Wall Street. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
426
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:51:00 -
[2370] - Quote
i think we all need to thank ccp sreegs for speding his day off to troll the hell out of the alliance he used to run... PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2507
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:53:00 -
[2371] - Quote
Paint wrote: So you have no kills. OK Edit - I will freely admit I don't pay much attention to wars but when I look at the war browser, unless I am missing something, which is completely possible, it shows no kills. But please do feel free to show me kills and losses from the war. Especially yours. This seems important to you.
Look at the "Goonswarm Federation vs Star Fraction" war in the online war browser. It comes an overview of the campaign so far.
(Starting 31/05/2012) Current results are The Star Fraction coalition 14b isk killed and 110 ships blown up. (winning) vs Goonswarm Federation with 1.7b isk killed and 26 ships blown up (losing).
Now sure, I've not scored a personal kill in this particular war (its not our only one I've got 302 kills vs the Amarrians btw) But then neither has Mittani (and it was his big griefing initiative I thought.) In fact the only goons I've actually in space since you declared war have been 3 cowardly stealth bombers who all instantly fled from me when I locked them with a tornado.
So here's the thing. When you declare war on an entity the onus is on you to come disrupt their operations and make yourselves a pain. What's happened here is that I countered your dec by inviting hisec trade hub raiders in for free as allowed in the 1.0 wardec system and you guys are getting farmed by hisec players. You haven't had the slightest impact on Star Fraction playstyle or our own war against Amarrian Faction warfare.
And its pretty hypocritical for you to somehow think I should be personally fighting Mittani's "griefing war" when your leader isn't.
Where is Mittani on the killboard? Hiding as usual.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1596
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:53:00 -
[2372] - Quote
Benedic wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit. An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit. I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players.
Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it.
If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
406
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:53:00 -
[2373] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Contribution to threadnaught :
The point that Screegs is missing is that all previous exploits have, to my knowledge, been covert. The ferrogel thing, rat manipulation (if any of you remember back that far) and the wormhole -1 tracking thing etc.
Instead CCP wandered in, posted a "We're doing this and this and this.", some very smart players saw that and did the math and used that to their advantage in a seriously massive way.
It might not be the definition of what CCP considers and exploit or what the capsuleer population considers legitimate gameplay.
CCP has basically wandered into town with a billboard strapped to them that reads "If you're very smart and can be bothered here's a set of systems we are implementing that can make you astronomically rich." and now they are removing those profits.
There was no such announcement of ferrogel etc. This is the same as profiting from Technetium of PI in my opinion. You announced it, they read it, they took advantage of it.
Just because CCP didn't smart up and see the impact of what they are implementing (protip: They never do) doesn't mean the playerbase didn't.
Just because CCP didn't hear the warnings amid all the other crap that fills the forums doesn't mean they're not going to correct it when it's abused to the tune of 5 trillion isk or whatever. If the warnings were even given. Do I believe Goons or do I believe CCP? I'm not going to sweat THAT decision for long. |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:53:00 -
[2374] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods.
You're doing this just fine yourself. |
Richard Dongue
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:55:00 -
[2375] - Quote
Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods. You're doing this just fine yourself.
careful mate don't disagree with sreegs or you'll get your posting privileges revoked forever |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:55:00 -
[2376] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit. An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit. I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players. Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it. If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem.
You didn't give back the assets/isk that they sunk into "printing isk" (that they got from other players so they, in effect, printed no isk whatsoever).
So no, they're not at the state prior to printing, and they were, in fact, punished. |
Robus Muvila
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:55:00 -
[2377] - Quote
This has been an absolutely fascinating arc of events and has made for wonderful reading. The first thing that comes to mind has been the knee jerk "Burned Earth" approach, as they started in regards to the Constantine Conspiracy, CCP is a big company, it takes time and planning to make anything happen, that's just how big companies work.
Hotfixes are drastic measures usually reserved for situations where there is something that is truely game breaking on a engine mechanics level, or it is a liability issue (Like deleting boot.ini ). What is essentially a balance issue (A huge one, but a balance issue none the less).
The sheer whammy and speed of this reaction combined with sicking CCP Sreegs on the forums in addition to the recent new rules about being mean to CCP staff on the forums to me looks less like a company dealing with a game exploit, and more like a company trying to save face on a PR level. They liked Burn Jita because although it involved upsetting a large section of the player base, they still had control of the situation, it was going to get out into the blogosphere and they could shape it and mould it to reflect positively on their product like pro's.
This wasn't a hack where players manipulated code or broke the game mechanics, this is a cut and dry case of the games playerbase being CONSIDERABLY smarter than the development team and a CCP that is clearly getting sick of disrespect from the playerbase.
I feel sorry for CCP in a way because they are in a clear Catch 22 situation here. If they rolled everything back, they're disturbing the sandbox, if they DIDN'T roll everything back Jade Constantine and Jester would have a god damn party about favouritism and goons being in CCP's pocket. They were damned if they did and they were damned if they didn't.
In the end regardless of what happens to the money the history of it all cannot be rolled back and cannot be hotfixed.
Goonswarm executed the scam of the century right under CCP's noses. And that is awesome, no matter what happens to the money.
And money is everything. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3733
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:56:00 -
[2378] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods. When you do the devblog on this, could you be clear what is/isn't allowed with the system, going forward? I think it's pretty clear that what was done here won't be allowed going forward (manipulating a price, then using that manipulated price), but as long as this mechanism is in the game there's going to be edge cases where you can make a profit essentially converting items into LP, though in much less crazy game-breaking ways. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1603
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:56:00 -
[2379] - Quote
Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit. An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit. I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players. Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it. If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem. You didn't give back the assets/isk that they sunk into "printing isk" (that they got from other players so they, in effect, printed no isk whatsoever). So no, they're not at the state prior to printing, and they were, in fact, punished.
and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:58:00 -
[2380] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay
Oh damn son, you got me there.
Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay.
We're finished. End of Goonswarm. |
|
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:58:00 -
[2381] - Quote
Hey Jade, how's the 8.7b isk doing that you made from this? Playing both sides of the argument doesn't do much for your respectability you know. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1603
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:58:00 -
[2382] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods. When you do the devblog on this, could you be clear what is/isn't allowed with the system, going forward? I think it's pretty clear that what was done here won't be allowed going forward (manipulating a price, then using that manipulated price), but as long as this mechanism is in the game there's going to be edge cases where you can make a profit essentially converting items into LP, though in much less crazy game-breaking ways.
You know as well as I do that I can't conceive of every potential future scenario to clearly lay out the lines and requesting that is really bad forum lawyering. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:59:00 -
[2383] - Quote
Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit. An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit. I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players. Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it. If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem. You didn't give back the assets/isk that they sunk into "printing isk" (that they got from other players so they, in effect, printed no isk whatsoever). So no, they're not at the state prior to printing, and they were, in fact, punished.
when CCP nerfed the sanctums and all the billions spend per alliance of upgrades of systems, they did not give anything back either. Nothing new there, regarding investments. So this completelly destroys your argument. |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:59:00 -
[2384] - Quote
Shouldn't the PR team be doing the communications here? |
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:59:00 -
[2385] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods.
Could you look at my previous posts in the thread about what is and isn't considered an exploit by CCP so I don't accidentally stumble across bad coding and end up banned? |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
202
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:59:00 -
[2386] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed. The difference is that all of the components of this alleged exploit were working exactly as designed. You've always been able to manipulate the market. Shooting ships to get LP for the value of their cargo was what was stated on the devblog regarding the FW changes. So was upgrading the FW systems with LP to get lower prices from the LP store. The only thing that wasn't intended was a combination of all of these factors. This is entirely different from duping ferrogel, where it was never designed you could react stuff without using the inputs. It's closer to the insurance fraud scheme, where a working design (shoot ship, get insurance payout) was "abused" because you got more than the ship was worth. If we make a correction it clearly wasn't what we intended. You're not manipulating the price so much as taking advantage of time lapses in the calculation of value which pins a different currency to a seldom-changing somewhat arbitrary number that you can set. did CCP intend ship insurance to form a price bottom for minerals?
guess they did not, as insurance payout calculations were reworked to prevent such a thing from happening again...
An obviously flawed game mechanic that had massive effects on the mineral market, injected huge amounts of ISK into the economy and was exploited on a truly industrial scale (too lazy to dig up old numbers, Kazuo alone destroyed a few thousand battleships iirc) - but resulted in absolutely no backlash against the involved players.
Winter 2009/Spring 2010 was probably still before your time at CCP but until now we had no indication from CCP that their approach to balance "sandbox" vs "impact on game economy" had changed.
Whatever action you decide to take, please make sure that we leave this whole affair with a clearer understanding of what is acceptable vs what is considered an exploit.
The old precedents don't seem to give reliable guidance anymore. |
David Carel
Perkone Caldari State
260
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:01:00 -
[2387] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Hey Jade, how's the 8.7b isk doing that you made from this? Playing both sides of the argument doesn't do much for your respectability you know.
Sick burrrrrrrrrrrrn |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:01:00 -
[2388] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Some of us are watching with bated breath to see how this turns out. Are we going to have to wait until Monday for an outcome?
Personally speaking, I get what you're saying. Any other game developer would have come in and swung the banhammer far and wide a long time ago citing the repeated abuse of other players, the scamming, and the general bad nature of the people who make up Goonswarm (when operating in concert). Any other game developer would look at the money and item trail as it exists now a week plus after this all went down, and throw up their hands and say reversal was impossible, and ban the accounts that profited most from this. Any other game developer wouldn't have a bunch of players wondering WHY they would even consider punishing for this.
I'd consider (and I can't be alone in this) that punishment of the guys who went and pulled this off would be sandbox-breaking. There simply wasn't any exploitation done. A developer decided to introduce a reward calculation into the game that was reliant on a number that the players determined. It cannot be unforeseeable by the development team how this would turn out, so I have to assume they thought the playerbase too stupid to use that to their advantage. And by and large, they are right. Look at this thread. Why on earth anyone would ever use a number the players determined for the sizing of a reward handed out by "the game", in this game, is beyond me. The playerbase of this game is entirely focused on the numbers. They've filled in the math for a great number of mechanics that have never been explained in detail by experimenting with the mechanics and using the outcome to determine the math behind it. Hell, a lot of players refer to Eve as "Speadsheets Online". The simple fact that a developer chose to use a number that could be manipulated by the playerbase in a calculation for handing out rewards was a bad decision, and instead of punishment I'd much rather the developers use this as a horror story to prevent other developers from making a bad decision like this one in the future.
Nothing was duplicated, nothing was buffer-overrun, nothing was endlessly repeated via an automated macro bot. People simply figured out the math behind (as this playerbase is known to do), decided they could manipulate the outcome to their advantage via in-game, built-in, previously-approved mechanics, and did so (as this playerbase is known to do). Is the scale a bit daunting? Well, yes. And I understand the sensitivity to that. But don't punish the players for something that is rightly a fault of a developer who has hopefully learned an important lesson here and will code for the game a bit better from here on in and avoid a recurrence of this in the future. There simply isn't a cause to act against the playerbase for this and doing so would herald the end of the sandbox we all love. The sandbox where ill-gotten gains from actual developer manipulation was allowed to stand. The sandbox where people duped ferrogel into existence out of thin air for months and the gains were allowed to stand. The sandbox where Jita Burns happened and the developers gushed about how emergent the gameplay was. That's the sandbox I log in for, the sandbox I have been playing in for 8 years, the sandbox that contains the only MMO I've ever played consistently for any period of time and I'd think that a large portion of the playerbase would also feel the same way as I do. Although I've been playing for 8 years now, I've only been in Goonswarm for the last 16 months. Not all of us have been Goons since day one, some of us got there a bit late.
So while the players in here and their forum alts are screaming for you to break the sandbox, while some goons are in here taunting you to break the sandbox, and while some people are in here gloating about how the sandbox was exploited, I'm pleading with you to see this from a long-term-player's perspective (one you used to share when you were a player) and declare Business As Usual In The Sandbox, Sorry About That Math - It's Fixed. |
Prop Wash
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:02:00 -
[2389] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay
Ok cool so why don't you just close this thread then |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1151
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:03:00 -
[2390] - Quote
that's certainly a post |
|
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:04:00 -
[2391] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.
Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player.
EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people.
EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox.
EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. |
Dreiden Kisada
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:04:00 -
[2392] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it.
If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem.
CCP Sreegs wrote: By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Using terms like Abuse and Glitch when you're talking about a game mechanic designed into the game by you guys sounds like you're blaming the players. Sounds a lot like it actually.
|
Prop Wash
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:04:00 -
[2393] - Quote
like what is even going to be the purpose of this thread if when anyone actually tries to discuss the topic of the thread we have someone with an official CCP title saying "you don't know what you're talking about get out," what could the purpose of this thread be besides inciting conflict between CCP employees and EVE players |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1603
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:04:00 -
[2394] - Quote
Prop Wash wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay
Ok cool so why don't you just close this thread then
ugh you've called my bluff I can't close the thread :( "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3733
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:05:00 -
[2395] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: You know as well as I do that I can't conceive of every potential future scenario to clearly lay out the lines and requesting that is really bad forum lawyering.
I'm not asking you to lay down rules you'll be held to, and I'm fully aware that if you made a general "this is allowed" statement for something and then I found a way to generate absurd amounts of LP from it that you'd look poorly on it and trying to rules-lawyer my way out of it wouldn't work. I'm not trying to trick you or anything or ask you do it here since I'm sure this requires a lot of thought, I'm just genuinely interested in what will generally be allowed/not allowed going forward. |
Sister Evian
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:05:00 -
[2396] - Quote
Ban Goons and let the other 350,000 people enjoy the game ....
Maybe losing to BoB so many times has finally got to them. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1612
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:06:00 -
[2397] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is.
When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Prop Wash
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:06:00 -
[2398] - Quote
and let me just emphasize that "official title" part because this is pretty aggressive, confrontational behavior from someone whose every post comes with the authority of CCP itself, like we're in pretty dire straits if everyone at CCP is currently as wound up about this as you are |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1612
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:07:00 -
[2399] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: You know as well as I do that I can't conceive of every potential future scenario to clearly lay out the lines and requesting that is really bad forum lawyering.
I'm not asking you to lay down rules you'll be held to, and I'm fully aware that if you made a general "this is allowed" statement for something and then I found a way to generate absurd amounts of LP from it that you'd look poorly on it and trying to rules-lawyer my way out of it wouldn't work. I'm not trying to trick you or anything or ask you do it here since I'm sure this requires a lot of thought, I'm just genuinely interested in what will generally be allowed/not allowed going forward.
I'll try to give some guidance in the blog once the investigation's done but what you're asking for can be a bit difficult. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1172
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:07:00 -
[2400] - Quote
Sister Evian wrote:Ban Goons and let the other 350,000 people enjoy the game ....
Maybe losing to BoB so many times has finally got to them.
is this a really weak attempt at a troll or do you really think we lost to BoB so many times by disbanding their alliance and defeating every respawn since?
also lol @ "ban all the goons" a rogue goon |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1612
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:08:00 -
[2401] - Quote
Prop Wash wrote:like what is even going to be the purpose of this thread if when anyone actually tries to discuss the topic of the thread we have someone with an official CCP title saying "you don't know what you're talking about get out," what could the purpose of this thread be besides inciting conflict between CCP employees and EVE players
I saw one guy trying to say what happened to individuals which is something we never discuss in any thread and that's what I responded to. Let's relax on being overdramatic. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Leonard J Crabs
Leonard J Crabs and Associates LLC
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:08:00 -
[2402] - Quote
Just curious if we keep disagreeing with you. Will you reset us to -10 too ie: Goonswarm? |
Phoenixx
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:09:00 -
[2403] - Quote
I just find it hilarious that Goonswarm is so mad about this.
1) You guys find an exploit, unintended manipulation, game design flaw (whatever you want to call it) and exploit the hell out if it.
2) You come on the forums and brag about how you outwitted CCP and make 300T ISK.
3) It is CLEAR that you all start to brag about the exploitation of a newly created faction war system to impress all the EVE online players and extend your E-PEEN.
4) It is CLEAR you know that it is a game design flaw you and continue to do it regardless.
5) CCP does the right thing and makes adjustments to avoid those profiting unfairly - in a GAME
6) You all start to cry, pretending you didn't think or know it was exploiting.
Classic.
Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:10:00 -
[2404] - Quote
Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay Oh damn son, you got me there. Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay. We're finished. End of Goonswarm.
Don't forget, you heard it from a Goonie (self proclamined scammers, exploiters, metagamers, etc etc ad nauseum), so you'll have to take whatever you heard from them with a grain of salt.
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1172
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:10:00 -
[2405] - Quote
Phoenixx wrote:2) You come on the forums and brag about how you outwitted CCP and make 300T ISK.
this figure changes with every post! a rogue goon |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:10:00 -
[2406] - Quote
Phoenixx wrote:Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it. counterpoint: insurance fraud Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1151
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:10:00 -
[2407] - Quote
Phoenixx wrote:I just find it hilarious that Goonswarm is so mad about this.
1) You guys find an exploit, unintended manipulation, game design flaw (whatever you want to call it) and exploit the hell out if it.
2) You come on the forums and brag about how you outwitted CCP and make 300T ISK.
3) It is CLEAR that you all start to brag about the exploitation of a newly created faction war system to impress all the EVE online players and extend your E-PEEN.
4) It is CLEAR you know that it is a game design flaw you and continue to do it regardless.
5) CCP does the right thing and makes adjustments to avoid those profiting unfairly - in a GAME
6) You all start to cry, pretending you didn't think or know it was exploiting.
Classic.
Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it.
thanks for your point of view pubbie we'll keep it in mind going forward |
Nephilim Xeno
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:12:00 -
[2408] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit. An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit. I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players. Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it. If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem.
just hope you take away all the isk that was earned duo to this extremly low costs and high LP payouts cause by the T5 upgraded that goons created for the minnie milita.
tbh i even think all the isk earned by this should be distributed among amarr milita members based on the amount of (worthless) LP that they currently have
|
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:12:00 -
[2409] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
Dude, bro...
have you read market discussion? |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:12:00 -
[2410] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3734
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:13:00 -
[2411] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
The problem is there's no way where the timing of value calculation isn't exploitable. Rapid adjustment leads to being manipulable (either intentionally or not: it could get spoofed by someone margin scamming, or relisting, or the like) while slow adjustment leads to cases where the market has moved but the value has not. There's a fundamental problem with a mechanism of value calculation that isn't based on fundamentals (build cost, cost to acquire from an LP store, or the like).
I know that fixing the design isn't your baliwick but as long as the fundamentals of the system remain the same there will always be opportunities to generate LP at a profit (essentially pay less than 2000 isk per lp), without spoofing the game's price. |
Dancing Tree
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:14:00 -
[2412] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market.
If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game? |
Phoenixx
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:14:00 -
[2413] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Phoenixx wrote:2) You come on the forums and brag about how you outwitted CCP and make 300T ISK. this figure changes with every post!
Whatever the number, it was a lot, that's the important part. The exact amount isn't really relevant. And yes, I'm aware that it ISK was spent for the items and that the items themselves are the valued things exploited.
|
Tez Saurus
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:14:00 -
[2414] - Quote
TL;DR of this thread is CCP's jimmies are rustled because some nerds understand their game better than they do? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3734
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:15:00 -
[2415] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I'll try to give some guidance in the blog once the investigation's done but what you're asking for can be a bit difficult.
Ok, thanks. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:15:00 -
[2416] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Prop Wash wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay
Ok cool so why don't you just close this thread then ugh you've called my bluff I can't close the thread :(
ROLF. i love this post. CCP Sreegs is actually trolling you. +10 !! |
Dreiden Kisada
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:16:00 -
[2417] - Quote
If by timing you mean taking advantage of a price differential after spent time and money making the price differential then I suppose it has to do with timing. I mean, it wouldn't have worked very well if they'd bought a bunch of stuff, then manipulated the market. Kinda hatching your eggs before their laid there.
|
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:16:00 -
[2418] - Quote
Come back EO, all is forgiven... |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
144
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:17:00 -
[2419] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Tread lightly Sreegs. You ****** up, not the players. The goons put LOTS of time and effort into making that isk. Do not treat them like RMTers. If you take it back, it'll be the worst mistake CCP ever makes. This wasn't a market exploit. It was sloppy game mechanic design. And you know it. And you're embarrassed. If you try to save your pride by taking back the isk people have made from this, the party will be over. The sandbox will finally be dead, and you may as well focus on CQ Space Barbies.
Theyve gotta act differently this time, after not doing **** with T20 when that happened http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1617
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:17:00 -
[2420] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first.
It is absolutely true. It's even mentioned in the OP. That's not the entirety of the exploit of course but it does increase the damage window. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
Phoenixx
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:17:00 -
[2421] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Phoenixx wrote:Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it. counterpoint: insurance fraud
There's a difference between game design flaw manipulation to gain a fair profit of ISK and this manipulation to accumulate a far greater value. Someone earlier from Goonswarm said the value of the amount of items gained exceeded the value of the entirety of titans in the game.
That is a huge difference. |
Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
1073
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:18:00 -
[2422] - Quote
sreegs |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:19:00 -
[2423] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:You can basically use any article written about this thus far for toilet paper as anything contained within the articles is fantasy invented by the bloggers writing the articles.
:)
CCP Sreegs wrote: I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
Sreegs, I'd send you a friend request, but that would be unprofessional, because I just read that last post entirely in the voice of Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction.
Like I posted earlier: goons, some of your guys just **** in the sandbox while at the same time trying to make CCP look bad. There are gonna be consequences, one way or the other, and while the whole thing was very clever, the fact that none of you asked the key question "What will CCP do once they find this out?" and "If we rub their faces in that fact we did this will our punishment possibly be harsher?' makes me highly doubt you're actually smarter than the devs.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:19:00 -
[2424] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first. It is absolutely true. It's even mentioned in the OP. That's not the entirety of the exploit of course but it does increase the damage window.
So, when does all the isk earnt during the insurance fraud bonanza get taken away? |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1617
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:19:00 -
[2425] - Quote
Dancing Tree wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market. If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game?
You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:20:00 -
[2426] - Quote
Phoenixx wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Phoenixx wrote:Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it. counterpoint: insurance fraud There's a difference between game design flaw manipulation to gain a fair profit of ISK and this manipulation to accumulate a far greater value. Someone earlier from Goonswarm said the value of the amount of items gained exceeded the value of the entirety of titans in the game. That is a huge difference. Why does scale matter? If it's within game mechanics, it's within game mechanics. Scale has no relevance on "legality". |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:21:00 -
[2427] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Dancing Tree wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market. If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game? You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not. And thusly the heavens opened, and the first of the Four Horsemen of the Sandbox Apocalypse burst forth. |
Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:22:00 -
[2428] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:If we make a correction it clearly wasn't what we intended. I'm well aware that this manipulation wasn't what you intended. I'm just arguing that this is qualitatively different from the ferrogel exploit, and thus retroactive punishment isn't warranted at all. I'm also aware that you haven't yet decided whether or not to punish Aryth et al., I'm just expressing my views on the matter so you can (or not) take them into account when you make your decision.
In a shocking turn of events, agreeing 100% with a goon.
|
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:22:00 -
[2429] - Quote
whoa are we all that times should fare so troubling
thou doest distress! Why doth no one but goons understand how legitimate this was?
CCP why hast thou forsaken goons?
All they wanted was to make a few trillion and destroy LP markets for the forseeable future possibly destroying an entire aspect of the game they just got done trying to invest in to bring new players.
hither to and further more, |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:22:00 -
[2430] - Quote
Phoenixx wrote:There's a difference between game design flaw manipulation to gain a fair profit of ISK and this manipulation to accumulate a far greater value. Someone earlier from Goonswarm said the value of the amount of items gained exceeded the value of the entirety of titans in the game.
That is a huge difference. okay so the difference between exploit and non exploit is the amount of money a single person made of it, gotcha Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1152
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:23:00 -
[2431] - Quote
I'm not sure you can design a flawed system and expect people not to game it. |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:23:00 -
[2432] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
It is not always apparent what is a flaw in the code and what is a flaw in the design. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, as in the ferogel dupe. A variety of now-defunct GARPA projects relied on flaws in the code, yes, we knew it, you fixed it, it's done.
This, however, does not look like a flaw in the code. This does not look like code being pushed into an edge case where it goes for a variable that has not been initialized and instead picks up old junk that just so happens to not be junk. We've been there, this doesn't smell like that. The code didn't default into a case where it unexpectedly decides to calculate an EVE-wide 90 day moving average. That was a design error, not an implementation error. And design errors are fair game. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3736
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:23:00 -
[2433] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Dancing Tree wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market. If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game? You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not. to be fair most of the fun of EVE's finances is doing things to the markets that would get you locked up in a heartbeat
don't mind me, i'm just dynamiting every oil well after buying up all the oil :v: |
Dancing Tree
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:23:00 -
[2434] - Quote
Phoenixx wrote: There's a difference between ... fair profit of ISK and ... a far greater value.
So you think the game shouldn't be a sandbox wherein profit is only limited by the ingenuity of the players? |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
219
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:24:00 -
[2435] - Quote
Man, this is such fun to read.
Screegs, I have to feel for you, just a little bit. Now YOU get to feel the power and wrath of the goon propaganda team. How does it feel to try to keep up with dozens of posters all working together?
2 separate things jump out at me:
1. If you remove the assets from these asshats (and no, I don't think you should, but I would just ban them for being goons), you are not removing THEIR assets, you are removing the assets from all the FW people they scammed/manipulated/smart gameplayed ( I truly hate to say they played the game well, but it is true).
Essentially, you would be introducing a one-time 5 trillion ISK tax into the game, that affects anyone who ran FW missions, or any mission involved with a Minmatar agent.
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
UI: Sisi screamed murder, yet you rolled it out. Incursions: The player community screamed the OTA's would pile up, you ignored them, now you are "looking at changes". War dec mechanics: You were warned, yet you rolled it out, then had to hot fix it. Now this. I have yet to see a post, but several people have stated that CCP was warned about this prior to release.
How about improving or creating a QA team, or at least listening carefully to the people on Sisi and in-game? |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:24:00 -
[2436] - Quote
I think this is far worst than the word "exploit". The word "exploit" is far too weak or linient of a word to use. I say goons "raped" the market and now are claiming no fault. This to me is helarious. Take all their isk and assets away CCP and send a message out that the gloves are off for anyone trying to do the same!! |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:25:00 -
[2437] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Dancing Tree wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market. If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game? You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not.
Oh look, an "Eve Is Real" post.
Thanks. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
317
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:25:00 -
[2438] - Quote
CCP Screegs, Maybe you need to role play it. What would Concord do if they found out what people are doing. They would shift the blame to the accountents and fixe the issue with massive fleet combat Right. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
213
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:26:00 -
[2439] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Dancing Tree wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market. If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game? You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not.
No you don't understand.
Give it another 50 pages. A few hundred more goon posts and you'll come around and realize how right they are here.
And it has nothing to do with keeping 5000 fleet stabber bpc's and mad mad mad assets and bank. Goons are much more noble than that. They are doing this for the good of the game and the sand in our sandbox. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:26:00 -
[2440] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:And design errors are fair game.
My dear maggie: this is CCP's game. They tell us what's fair game, not the other way around.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:26:00 -
[2441] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:I think this is far worst than the word "exploit". The word "exploit" is far too weak or linient of a word to use. I say goons "raped" the market and now are claiming no fault. This to me is helarious. Take all their isk and assets away CCP and send a message out that the gloves are off for anyone trying to do the same!! I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1623
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:27:00 -
[2442] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It is not always apparent what is a flaw in the code and what is a flaw in the design. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, as in the ferogel dupe. A variety of now-defunct GARPA projects relied on flaws in the code, yes, we knew it, you fixed it, it's done. This, however, does not look like a flaw in the code. This does not look like code being pushed into an edge case where it goes for a variable that has not been initialized and instead picks up old junk that just so happens to not be junk. We've been there, this doesn't smell like that. The code didn't default into a case where it unexpectedly decides to calculate an EVE-wide 90 day moving average. That was a design error, not an implementation error. And design errors are fair game.
Flaw in code was a bad way of saying things v0v You're correct that the code was doing what it was written to do. However when the new mechanic was introduced a system was being leveraged to determine the value of a currency that was not built for that purpose and that's what caused this. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
390
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:29:00 -
[2443] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first.
To expand on this:
The problem here had nothing to do with timing. It had to do with items that have no market volume, because they are useless, and yet are available from the Faction Warfare store. For example:
Let's say there is an item, which I'll call 'Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r' for the sake of simplicity. This item has literally no use in the game except allowing the pilot who has it fitted to always efficiently complete every z0r chain he sees. Because few people care about this ability, the market price of this item languishes around 5 million ISK, with about 100 of them actually being traded per month.
The Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r, meanwhile, is available from LP stores for 5 million ISK and 5000 LP. This makes it extremely unprofitable to buy with LP.
But, now let's say that I take advantage of the item's low market volume to increase its average price. I do this by buying 5,000 of the 44-z0r Boondoggle (from the LP store, naturally), putting them on the market for 500M ISK apiece, and then buying out my own sell order. This costs me a tiny amount of ISK in the form of broker fees, as well as 25B ISK to get the material initially. But now the average price of that item is just under 500M ISK, since my own sales (to myself) utterly dominate the normal market volume of the Boondoggle in question.
Now all of a sudden the worth of this item is 500M ISK. That means that for each Boondoggle I blow up, I get 50,000 LP. Basically I can now buy 50,000 LP for the cost of 5M ISK and 5,000 LP invested. (This is 111.11 ISK per LP, right around the actual value cited in Aryth's article.)
Now then, what is the takeaway from my explanation? The takeaway is that there is no timing issue like Sreegs is saying. The market value of that item isn't affected by me repeatedly blowing it up for profit. It still has no use and it still isn't being sold on the market. I couldn't do this to a normal item, because the sales volume on the normal market would make my attempt at manipulation invisible.
This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem.
It is a design flaw.
Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.) |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:29:00 -
[2444] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It is not always apparent what is a flaw in the code and what is a flaw in the design. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, as in the ferogel dupe. A variety of now-defunct GARPA projects relied on flaws in the code, yes, we knew it, you fixed it, it's done. This, however, does not look like a flaw in the code. This does not look like code being pushed into an edge case where it goes for a variable that has not been initialized and instead picks up old junk that just so happens to not be junk. We've been there, this doesn't smell like that. The code didn't default into a case where it unexpectedly decides to calculate an EVE-wide 90 day moving average. That was a design error, not an implementation error. And design errors are fair game. Flaw in code was a bad way of saying things v0v You're correct that the code was doing what it was written to do. However when the new mechanic was introduced a system was being leveraged to determine the value of a currency that was not built for that purpose and that's what caused this. Only because a developer decided to include a value that the players can move, which in retrospect was a terribly bad idea. The math worked exactly as designed. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
309
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:29:00 -
[2445] - Quote
There are people coding what their design leader tells them to.
There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan
There's a test server
There are bug hunters
There is players feedback (hohoho)
Then you decide to implement "stuff"
Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above.
Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed?
What the heck? brb |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:29:00 -
[2446] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:I think this is far worst than the word "exploit". The word "exploit" is far too weak or linient of a word to use. I say goons "raped" the market and now are claiming no fault. This to me is helarious. Take all their isk and assets away CCP and send a message out that the gloves are off for anyone trying to do the same!! I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'. it does not imply the meaning you intend to put. I specifically said "the market"! Dont try to make this into something else.... |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
144
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:29:00 -
[2447] - Quote
Istyn wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". Dude, bro... have you read market discussion?
or hell most of what goons do/type? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Sister Evian
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:30:00 -
[2448] - Quote
So while Goons where trying to screw the game for everyone they have members sitting on the CSM ...
Smart move CCP ...... |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:30:00 -
[2449] - Quote
It sounds like Sreegs is being given the task of defending others' bad design implementations. Which is a pretty strange remit to have for his job title. |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:30:00 -
[2450] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:And design errors are fair game. My dear maggie: this is CCP's game. They tell us what's fair game, not the other way around. As has been previously said both by CCP Sreegs and others; CCP is well within their rights to do pretty much whatever they want.
That does not mean that whatever they decide to do is right, however. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1623
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:30:00 -
[2451] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first. To expand on this: The problem here had nothing to do with timing. It had to do with items that have no market volume, because they are useless, and yet are available from the Faction Warfare store. For example: Let's say there is an item, which I'll call 'Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r' for the sake of simplicity. This item has literally no use in the game except allowing the pilot who has it fitted to always efficiently complete every z0r chain he sees. Because few people care about this ability, the market price of this item languishes around 5 million ISK, with about 100 of them actually being traded per month. The Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r, meanwhile, is available from LP stores for 5 million ISK and 5000 LP. This makes it extremely unprofitable to buy with LP. But, now let's say that I take advantage of the item's low market volume to increase its average price. I do this by buying 5,000 of the 44-z0r Boondoggle (from the LP store, naturally), putting them on the market for 500M ISK apiece, and then buying out my own sell order. This costs me a tiny amount of ISK in the form of broker fees, as well as 25B ISK to get the material initially. But now the average price of that item is just under 500M ISK, since my own sales (to myself) utterly dominate the normal market volume of the Boondoggle in question. Now all of a sudden the worth of this item is 500M ISK. That means that for each Boondoggle I blow up, I get 50,000 LP. Basically I can now buy 50,000 LP for the cost of 5M ISK and 5,000 LP invested. (This is 111.11 ISK per LP, right around the actual value cited in Aryth's article.) Now then, what is the takeaway from my explanation? The takeaway is that there is no timing issue like Sreegs is saying. The market value of that item isn't affected by me repeatedly blowing it up for profit. It still has no use and it still isn't being sold on the market. I couldn't do this to a normal item, because the sales volume on the normal market would make my attempt at manipulation invisible. This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem. It is a design flaw. Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)
How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way? "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:31:00 -
[2452] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'.
No, it's hilarious, because it's been a long time since I needed a 5 gallon bucket to gather up all these goon tears. It's like that scene in Alice in Wonderland where Alice cries an ocean.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1623
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:31:00 -
[2453] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It is not always apparent what is a flaw in the code and what is a flaw in the design. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, as in the ferogel dupe. A variety of now-defunct GARPA projects relied on flaws in the code, yes, we knew it, you fixed it, it's done. This, however, does not look like a flaw in the code. This does not look like code being pushed into an edge case where it goes for a variable that has not been initialized and instead picks up old junk that just so happens to not be junk. We've been there, this doesn't smell like that. The code didn't default into a case where it unexpectedly decides to calculate an EVE-wide 90 day moving average. That was a design error, not an implementation error. And design errors are fair game. Flaw in code was a bad way of saying things v0v You're correct that the code was doing what it was written to do. However when the new mechanic was introduced a system was being leveraged to determine the value of a currency that was not built for that purpose and that's what caused this. Only because a developer decided to include a value that the players can move, which in retrospect was a terribly bad idea. The math worked exactly as designed.
Nobody's denying that here whatsoever. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
144
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:31:00 -
[2454] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
The problem is there's no way where the timing of value calculation isn't exploitable. Rapid adjustment leads to being manipulable (either intentionally or not: it could get spoofed by someone margin scamming, or relisting, or the like) while slow adjustment leads to cases where the market has moved but the value has not. There's a fundamental problem with a mechanism of value calculation that isn't based on fundamentals (build cost, cost to acquire from an LP store, or the like). I know that fixing the design isn't your baliwick but as long as the fundamentals of the system remain the same there will always be opportunities to generate LP at a profit (essentially pay less than 2000 isk per lp), without spoofing the game's price.
It is however funny to see when CCP rules against Goons they rage as hard as everyone else does http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:31:00 -
[2455] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It is not always apparent what is a flaw in the code and what is a flaw in the design. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, as in the ferogel dupe. A variety of now-defunct GARPA projects relied on flaws in the code, yes, we knew it, you fixed it, it's done. This, however, does not look like a flaw in the code. This does not look like code being pushed into an edge case where it goes for a variable that has not been initialized and instead picks up old junk that just so happens to not be junk. We've been there, this doesn't smell like that. The code didn't default into a case where it unexpectedly decides to calculate an EVE-wide 90 day moving average. That was a design error, not an implementation error. And design errors are fair game. Flaw in code was a bad way of saying things v0v You're correct that the code was doing what it was written to do. However when the new mechanic was introduced a system was being leveraged to determine the value of a currency that was not built for that purpose and that's what caused this.
Your job would probably be a lot easier if expansions or patches weren't released despite players warning what might happen. You know, like, "obtw guys, inferno will just cause dogpiling of war decs", "we'll wait and see", and now this.
I think it's fairer to say CCP's 'wait and see, metrics are everything' policy caused it along with numerous other recent problems. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1623
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:31:00 -
[2456] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:There are people coding what their design leader tells them to. There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan There's a test server There are bug hunters There is players feedback (hohoho) Then you decide to implement "stuff" Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above. Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed? What the heck?
Nobody has been penalized "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:32:00 -
[2457] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:And design errors are fair game. My dear maggie: this is CCP's game. They tell us what's fair game, not the other way around. As has been previously said both by CCP Sreegs and others; CCP is well within their rights to do pretty much whatever they want. That does not mean that whatever they decide to do is right, however. See: Monoclegate |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
187
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:32:00 -
[2458] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:I think this is far worst than the word "exploit". The word "exploit" is far too weak or linient of a word to use. I say goons "raped" the market and now are claiming no fault. This to me is helarious. Take all their isk and assets away CCP and send a message out that the gloves are off for anyone trying to do the same!! I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'. it does not imply the meaning you intend to put. I specifically said "the market"! Dont try to make this into something else.... If you intend to use such inappropriate language to describe the actions of people in an internet spaceships game, then you should possibly sit back and reflect on your communication skills. I think you should retract your word, apologise and make your point again using different language that does not offend, nor hyperbolise. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
213
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:32:00 -
[2459] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Man, this is such fun to read.
Screegs, I have to feel for you, just a little bit. Now YOU get to feel the power and wrath of the goon propaganda team. How does it feel to try to keep up with dozens of posters all working together?
2 separate things jump out at me:
1. If you remove the assets from these asshats (and no, I don't think you should, but I would just ban them for being goons), you are not removing THEIR assets, you are removing the assets from all the FW people they scammed/manipulated/smart gameplayed ( I truly hate to say they played the game well, but it is true).
Essentially, you would be introducing a one-time 5 trillion ISK tax into the game, that affects anyone who ran FW missions, or any mission involved with a Minmatar agent.
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
UI: Sisi screamed murder, yet you rolled it out. Incursions: The player community screamed the OTA's would pile up, you ignored them, now you are "looking at changes". War dec mechanics: You were warned, yet you rolled it out, then had to hot fix it. Now this. I have yet to see a post, but several people have stated that CCP was warned about this prior to release.
How about improving or creating a QA team, or at least listening carefully to the people on Sisi and in-game?
Someone used massive amounts of assets and magic to make LP. LP used to make items that would have flooded and wrecked our markets for anyone trying to profit on those items.
Letting them keep those assets impacts hundreds likely thousands of players that actually play the game without violating the EULA (which, you could argue you didn't break, but the authority itself just told you you done goofed)
I'm sure something awful or whatever is abound with word to press the "it was legit" "it was good for the game" propaganda.... but you don't realize how old and tired the goon bs has become.
It's just not edgy anymore, and CCP figured out a long time ago they have no reason to bend to their adolescent internet spaceship strutting and tantrums.
It's almost as if the only people that "dont get goons" are the goons themselves. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3736
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:33:00 -
[2460] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones.
The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones. |
|
Singoth
Kronos Fleet
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:33:00 -
[2461] - Quote
(I only read the first posts explaining what happened) Quite frankly, I'm a bit disappointed by this.
I give my congratz to the goons (or those few people in goonfleet that did this) for figuring out a way to break the game. However, I am also stunned that these people were thinking this was actually "working as intended" and didn't report it through a petition BEFORE abusing it in such a way it required CCP intervention. I mean, really, if something is too good to be true, it probably is. This is a perfect example.
Anyone, right from the start of imagining this idea, to the point of actually putting it to practice, would realise how much this would break the market, and by extent, the entire game. And you still did it, and not just on a small scale, no... you actually did it on a large scale. And this was just 1 group of players... imagine if this got out to the public and was considered legal by CCP and would be done by EVERYONE eventually. That just wouldn't be good, would it? that's why it's a glitch... market manipulation is fine... even encouraged in the game. But exploiting a flaw in game mechanics in order to create such a
I am stunned by both the ingenuity of the exploit, as well as the stupidity by which it was put to practice. Less yappin', more zappin'! |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1172
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:33:00 -
[2462] - Quote
Sister Evian wrote:So while Goons where trying to screw the game for everyone they have members sitting on the CSM ...
Smart move CCP ......
Such as? a rogue goon |
Captain Pitts
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:33:00 -
[2463] - Quote
Sreegs why are you ruining EVE? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
103
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:33:00 -
[2464] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:That does not mean that whatever they decide to do is right, however.
Rav, this is EvE Online. Right and wrong are something that happens to other games, as Mittens himself once said.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:34:00 -
[2465] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:I think this is far worst than the word "exploit". The word "exploit" is far too weak or linient of a word to use. I say goons "raped" the market and now are claiming no fault. This to me is helarious. Take all their isk and assets away CCP and send a message out that the gloves are off for anyone trying to do the same!! I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'. it does not imply the meaning you intend to put. I specifically said "the market"! Dont try to make this into something else.... If you intend to use such inappropriate language to describe the actions of people in an internet spaceships game, then you should possibly sit back and reflect on your communication skills. I think you should retract your word, apologise and make your point again using different language that does not offend, nor hyperbolise.
Confirming your use of language makes you far worse than the people you are complaining about.
Wash your mouth out with soap young man. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
539
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:34:00 -
[2466] - Quote
Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay Oh damn son, you got me there. Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay. We're finished. End of Goonswarm.
You repeating the words of others to use as a form of defence, as evidence of any kind, or in the course of a discussion IS hearsay. The only way it could be anything other than hearsay, is if you are the person it happened to.
EDIT: For the sake of clarity, the only people qualified to discuss this situation are those who were directly involved. That is to say the 8 people from Goonswarm who perpetrated the acts, and the staff at CCP. Everything else is conjecture and hearsay. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Cause Effect
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:34:00 -
[2467] - Quote
That was a rather interesting read |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:35:00 -
[2468] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Ravcharas wrote:That does not mean that whatever they decide to do is right, however. Rav, this is EvE Online. Right and wrong are something that happens to other games, as Mittens himself once said. ****. I can't believe I am agreeing with one of your posts. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:35:00 -
[2469] - Quote
i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean. |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:36:00 -
[2470] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean. Are you going to apologise? |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:36:00 -
[2471] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:I'm not sure you can design a flawed system and expect goons not to game it.
fixed that http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1627
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:37:00 -
[2472] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones. The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones. edit: or it will drop out when the spoofed transactions leave the 90 day window. However you can trivially do some more to keep the price at normal.
That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
RAP ACTION HERO
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:37:00 -
[2473] - Quote
one day goons are going to cure cancer |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:37:00 -
[2474] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean. Are you going to apologise?
why should he? that was a legitimate use of forum mechanics |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
395
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:37:00 -
[2475] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem.
It is a design flaw.
Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.) How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
It takes as long as CCP wants it to take. In this case I understand that your boys settled on automatic 1/week index updates referring to a 3-month market average. But it doesn't matter when CCP chooses to update the market price -- as soon as they do, the item is available for abuse.
Furthermore, the market index STAYS THAT WAY just as long as the manipulator in question WANTS it to stay that way, because the item in question has no normal market volume to correct said index. This is the core of what makes this possible.
It isn't a timing issue, it is an issue with using market price indices in a market where not every item has appropriate sales velocity.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Nobody has been penalized
The problem is that you guys unevenly nuked a bunch of assets (including some that weren't connected) and didn't open any channels of communication to the Faction Five before or after you did so. The first official communication was your post about it being a stopgap measure, nearly 24 hours after the fact.
You can see where that might look bad, and make the players involved (who freely shared all of their information with you) a little bit upset. |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:38:00 -
[2476] - Quote
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:one day goons are going to cure cancer And we'll be blamed for putting the pharmaceutical companies out of business. |
Paint
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:38:00 -
[2477] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
So when are you going to roll back all the wealth from t2 bpo then?
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:38:00 -
[2478] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Dancing Tree
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:38:00 -
[2479] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not.
That things which would never be acceptable in real world financial systems are allowed in EVE is a central and fundamental positive which draws people to this game. The sandbox is an unregulated market that has winners and losers. Some people make stupid mistakes in this game; goons profit off that stupidity. This is only special in terms of scale, which is a comment on the scale of the stupid mistake that was taken advantage of. |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:38:00 -
[2480] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:RAP ACTION HERO wrote:one day goons are going to cure cancer And we'll be blamed for putting the pharmaceutical companies out of business.
Stealing our jerbs.
Dancing Tree wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not.
That things which would never be acceptable in real world financial systems are allowed in EVE is a central and fundamental positive which draws people to this game. The sandbox is an unregulated market that has winners and losers. Some people make stupid mistakes in this game; goons profit off that stupidity. This is only special in terms of scale, which is a comment on the scale of the stupid mistake that was taken advantage of.
Still want to know if Sreegs has ever read market discussion. |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
103
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:39:00 -
[2481] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean. Are you going to apologise?
Dodo: I say, you'll never get dry that way. Alice: Get dry? Dodo: Have to run with the others. First rule of a caucus race, you know. ChaCha!
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3736
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:39:00 -
[2482] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.
Well, they stick around a lot longer without you needing to re-spoof the price. But if I want to abuse the z0r Kazanir mentioned, it's not hard to take some time out of my busy schedule of blowing up scads of them to sell another 1000 to myself at hideously inflated prices. I mean I'm blowing them up all day, I can easily keep the transactions going to keep the price inflated. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:39:00 -
[2483] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean. Are you going to apologise?
apologise for what? Its you goons thats crying not us. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:39:00 -
[2484] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nobody has been penalized The problem is that you guys unevenly nuked a bunch of assets (including some that weren't connected) and didn't open any channels of communication to the Faction Five before or after you did so. The first official communication was your post about it being a stopgap measure, nearly 24 hours after the fact. You can see where that might look bad, and make the players involved (who freely shared all of their information with you) a little bit upset.
but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.
stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz (edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)
it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused
playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch |
Phoenixx
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:39:00 -
[2485] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:Phoenixx wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Phoenixx wrote:Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it. counterpoint: insurance fraud There's a difference between game design flaw manipulation to gain a fair profit of ISK and this manipulation to accumulate a far greater value. Someone earlier from Goonswarm said the value of the amount of items gained exceeded the value of the entirety of titans in the game. That is a huge difference. Why does scale matter? If it's within game mechanics, it's within game mechanics. Scale has no relevance on "legality".
I never said the exploitation of the insurance was "legal." But you have to be realistic. CCP doesn't have to resources to go after every single person that might have exploited the insurance flaw. In that situation, scale does matter.
When Goonswarm came on the forums and bragged non-stop about something they clearly knew was exploitation of a bad design flaw and then admitted that it was worth as much as I mentioned above, CCP will and should penalize/fix.
This isn't the best comparison, but I'm lazy to think of another.:
Cops aren't going to spend the resources to go after a kid who stole some candy from a store. But they sure as hell are going to go after a group of people who have robbed multiple banks and then bragged about it. |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:40:00 -
[2486] - Quote
oh hahaha, look at all the goon tears
Priceless, maybe you should put all those priceless tears in one of your own freighters and blow it up in Yulai.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:40:00 -
[2487] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:And design errors are fair game. My dear maggie: this is CCP's game. They tell us what's fair game, not the other way around.
Or not anymore apparently
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:40:00 -
[2488] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Ravcharas wrote:That does not mean that whatever they decide to do is right, however. Rav, this is EvE Online. Right and wrong are something that happens to other games, as Mittens himself once said. Sure. I agree. I'm just saying... |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
395
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:40:00 -
[2489] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round
We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1627
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:41:00 -
[2490] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem.
It is a design flaw.
Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.) How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way? It takes as long as CCP wants it to take. In this case I understand that your boys settled on automatic 1/week index updates referring to a 3-month market average. But it doesn't matter when CCP chooses to update the market price -- as soon as they do, the item is available for abuse. Furthermore, the market index STAYS THAT WAY just as long as the manipulator in question WANTS it to stay that way, because the item in question has no normal market volume to correct said index. This is the core of what makes this possible. It isn't a timing issue, it is an issue with using market price indices in a market where not every item has appropriate sales velocity. CCP Sreegs wrote:Nobody has been penalized The problem is that you guys unevenly nuked a bunch of assets (including some that weren't connected) and didn't open any channels of communication to the Faction Five before or after you did so. The first official communication was your post about it being a stopgap measure, nearly 24 hours after the fact. You can see where that might look bad, and make the players involved (who freely shared all of their information with you) a little bit upset.
We didn't nuke anything. Shared information post exploit is appreciated but let's not pretend this was shared with us prior to being taken advantage of.
What we took and what we'll be doing with it etc. are matters between us and the people who had the assets, not the forum community. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:41:00 -
[2491] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.
Shocking. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
103
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:42:00 -
[2492] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote: Or not anymore apparently
Yeah, still. After all, if they didn't, what are all these goon tears that are up to our ankles about then?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:42:00 -
[2493] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean. Are you going to apologise? apologise for what? Its you goons thats crying not us. Apologise for your use of highly inappropriate and offensive language when referring to an internet spaceship game. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1627
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:43:00 -
[2494] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.
Well, they stick around a lot longer without you needing to re-spoof the price. But if I want to abuse the z0r Kazanir mentioned, it's not hard to take some time out of my busy schedule of blowing up scads of them to sell another 1000 to myself at hideously inflated prices. I mean I'm blowing them up all day, I can easily keep the transactions going to keep the price inflated.
Certainly but I can only refer to the system that actually exists today. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:43:00 -
[2495] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:It sounds like Sreegs is being given the task of defending others' bad design implementations. Which is a pretty strange remit to have for his job title.
Does this count as that new rule about getting permabanned for attacking CCP yet? They were pretty vague on the specifics of that rule too
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:44:00 -
[2496] - Quote
Sreegs and goons are BOTH right.
Sreegs, this isn't, and won't be, the last time someone has... used the coding for unintended purposes (See: CONCORD aggression changes)
Goons, This may be what they have been.. intending to do with the code, but... not the spirit of it, if that makes sense.
The good that comes out of all of this, is that the issue is dealt with BEFORE a massive economic collapse in EVE happens. |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:44:00 -
[2497] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Tomytronic wrote:It sounds like Sreegs is being given the task of defending others' bad design implementations. Which is a pretty strange remit to have for his job title. Does this count as that new rule about getting permabanned for attacking CCP yet? They were pretty vague on the specifics of that rule too
I heard CCP staff smell of elderberries.
c/d |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
220
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:44:00 -
[2498] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round
Good edit, thanks. |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
395
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:45:00 -
[2499] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.
stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz (edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)
it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused
playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch
In my opinion, what CCP should have done was:
1. Freeze all the accounts with a 7-day suspension. 2. IMMEDIATELY send e-mails to all of the players affected saying something like:
"Hey guys,
What you did was pretty creative and lots of us think it was cool. Furthermore, we owe you a thank you for coming clean about it. Nevertheless it was a clear design flaw and we can't allow this scale of damage to the economy to remain.
Because of that we're locking your accounts for investigation and we plan to remove most of the ISK/assets gained through this infinite loop. Our goal here isn't to punish you but to remove the majority of the damage that would have been caused. Until our investigation is finished the accounts will have to remain locked but we'll compensate you for the account time."
3. Immediately post the same thing on the forums in press-release form. 4. Have PR flunkies saying the same thing to the press.
No one really is disputing that they do need to fix the economic damage, but they are going about it hamfistedly, with poor public communication, conflicting statements (Xhagen and Manifest talking to the press.) |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:45:00 -
[2500] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Tomytronic wrote:I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'. No, it's hilarious, because it's been a long time since I needed a 5 gallon bucket to gather up all these goon tears. It's like that scene in Alice in Wonderland where Alice cries an ocean.
check out my sig. Wonder how many steaks could be seasoned with these tears? Also; 5 trillion vs effectively infinite moon goo funds and they think they have the right to cry? Entitlement much?
Suck it up and move on
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:45:00 -
[2501] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody has been penalized
CCP Sreegs wrote: That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.
Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1627
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:45:00 -
[2502] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.
I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.
That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:45:00 -
[2503] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote: Or not anymore apparently
Yeah, still. After all, if they didn't, what are all these goon tears that are up to our ankles about then?
its gone past that....i have had to learn how to swim in a very short time. Granted i am doing doggy stile to stay afloat. Looking for a land atm! Wish me luck!
|
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:46:00 -
[2504] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.
So why do you deploy stuff before fixing it then blame the players and/or break the game? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:47:00 -
[2505] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:There are people coding what their design leader tells them to. There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan There's a test server There are bug hunters There is players feedback (hohoho) Then you decide to implement "stuff" Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above. Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed? What the heck? Nobody has been penalized
so theyre LYING about the 5 trillion. Ah do they get banned now for rumor mongering as per the OTHER part of that new rule? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:47:00 -
[2506] - Quote
Istyn wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it. So why do you deploy stuff before fixing it then blame the players?
Why can't people do everything perfect the first time?
I always do. even my post edits were planned in the first draft
edit: ccp has clearly failed and the game is now over for not sending goons enough emails to explain they were fixing the thing goons just spent 60 pages on eve-o gloating about |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:48:00 -
[2507] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.
I'm aware of this; what I'm saying I have secondhand from Aryth, I don't know to whom he tried to speak or where he posted, maybe he'll clarify later. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:48:00 -
[2508] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:I think this is far worst than the word "exploit". The word "exploit" is far too weak or linient of a word to use. I say goons "raped" the market and now are claiming no fault. This to me is helarious. Take all their isk and assets away CCP and send a message out that the gloves are off for anyone trying to do the same!! I say your hyperbole is offensive to actual victims of ****. This isn't 'helarious'. it does not imply the meaning you intend to put. I specifically said "the market"! Dont try to make this into something else.... If you intend to use such inappropriate language to describe the actions of people in an internet spaceships game, then you should possibly sit back and reflect on your communication skills. I think you should retract your word, apologise and make your point again using different language that does not offend, nor hyperbolise.
like all those words used as adjectives that are racial slurs versus the Jewish people? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:48:00 -
[2509] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: Why can't people do everything perfect the first time?
I always do. even my post edits were planned in the first draft
Damn right.
edit: totally typo'd. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1629
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:48:00 -
[2510] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.
stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz (edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)
it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused
playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch Edit: To be clear, you are essentially right. The damage needed fixing, period. In my opinion, what CCP should have done was: 1. Freeze all the accounts with a 7-day suspension. 2. IMMEDIATELY send e-mails to all of the players affected saying something like: "Hey guys, What you did was pretty creative and lots of us think it was cool. Furthermore, we owe you a thank you for coming clean about it. Nevertheless it was a clear design flaw and we can't allow this scale of damage to the economy to remain. Because of that we're locking your accounts for investigation and we plan to remove most of the ISK/assets gained through this infinite loop. Our goal here isn't to punish you but to remove the majority of the damage that would have been caused. Until our investigation is finished the accounts will have to remain locked but we'll compensate you for the account time." 3. Immediately post the same thing on the forums in press-release form. 4. Have PR flunkies saying the same thing to the press. No one really is disputing that they do need to fix the economic damage, but they are going about it hamfistedly, with poor public communication, conflicting statements (Xhagen and Manifest talking to the press.)
What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
Ariel Marquette
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:49:00 -
[2511] - Quote
I am somewhat confused by some of the Goons' commentary here. They are repeatedly claiming that:
1) The game design / mechanics were used as intended. 2) It's not their fault if they thought about how it could be used this way and CCP didn't.
If point 2 is true, then how could point 1 possibly be true? CCP couldn't have intended for the design to be used in this way if they hadn't thought about it being used in this way.
Like it or not, CCP's designated employees are the arbiters of how their property may be used. They are well within their rights to do whatever they please to whomever they please within their game world, whether that seems completely arbitrary or not.
I applaud CCP's efforts to put some real thought into dealing with this situation. As a non-Goon, my solution would have simply been to start throwing Goons out of the game, given that they are so intent on ruining it for as many other people as possible. CCP's restraint is admirable. |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:49:00 -
[2512] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.
Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it? |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
202
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:49:00 -
[2513] - Quote
Using the phrase "Goon tears" makes you pretty cool
Showing them what for
The fact that you're so eager to post it every page, well, |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:50:00 -
[2514] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Ravcharas wrote:That does not mean that whatever they decide to do is right, however. Rav, this is EvE Online. Right and wrong are something that happens to other games, as Mittens himself once said.
Eve is not meant to be fair
am I doin it right?
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:50:00 -
[2515] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:It sounds like Sreegs is being given the task of defending others' bad design implementations. Which is a pretty strange remit to have for his job title.
Probably started as a security red flag, some automated sweep saying "holy **** this account has a trillion ISK worth of implants in a can!". So now The Aeronaut is stuck with it.
|
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:50:00 -
[2516] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it. Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?
Because game development is actually metrics development. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:51:00 -
[2517] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
Um, Sreegs, that's not quite accurate. I hate to sound like I'm defending these idiots, but CCP has, in the past, made some very public examples on occasion.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
468
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:51:00 -
[2518] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
It is however funny to see when CCP rules against Goons they rage as hard as everyone else does
Only in this case it's Goons raging against CCP, whereas normally everyone rages at Goons. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1629
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:51:00 -
[2519] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody has been penalized
CCP Sreegs wrote: That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.
Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
Hows that for hearsay.
When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1629
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:52:00 -
[2520] - Quote
Istyn wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it. So why do you deploy stuff before fixing it then blame the players and/or break the game?
You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:52:00 -
[2521] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody has been penalized
CCP Sreegs wrote: That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.
Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
Hows that for hearsay. When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
lmbo |
Tyrion Struan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:53:00 -
[2522] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones. The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones. edit: or it will drop out when the spoofed transactions leave the 90 day window. However you can trivially do some more to keep the price at normal. That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.
I think, at this time, you should stop doing anything. You are being rash and unthoughtful. What has really happened? A very small group of guys, already filthy rich, and with a better understanding of game mechanics than the dev team, sat down and found a possible flaw in game mechanics. They used this. Precisely the way all CCP commercial say that we should use game mechanics to their full extent. You give us the game, we run with it. Precisely the way Soundwave has been harping about how he loves seeing what we can do with the game that you guys never thought of. If you don't like the way we use the mechanics, fix it. That is fine. But it stops there. What's been done, that didn't violate the EULA, stays. This, after all, is what eve is about.
Right now Sreegs you are dealing with a threadnought because you couldn't step back and let the game go on. So they made an extra few bill, who cares? Good on them for being better at eve than CCP. Instead of rolling with it, make a PR stunt out of it, congratulating the players that beat you at your own game, you are now being the heavy handed CCP that couldn't let the sandbox be the sandbox you've promised. You are walking a thin rhetorical line (let's be honest, there is no content in your argument, only rhetoric) , trying to defend why using game mechanics you knowingly implemented in a way you didn't foresee and intend is suddenly an abuse. And an abuse apparently enough to warrant you stepping in and taking stuff away. Sometimes Sreegs its better to step back and let things roll on. Had you really nothing you'd rather spend midsummers doing than dealing with the fallout of a bad call? |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:53:00 -
[2523] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards.
Well at least you won't have to worry about finding a new one for the foreseeable future. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1629
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:53:00 -
[2524] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:There are people coding what their design leader tells them to. There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan There's a test server There are bug hunters There is players feedback (hohoho) Then you decide to implement "stuff" Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above. Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed? What the heck? Nobody has been penalized so theyre LYING about the 5 trillion. Ah do they get banned now for rumor mongering as per the OTHER part of that new rule?
If they did it wouldn't be any of your business. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:53:00 -
[2525] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
This is a policy flaw.
First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn.
Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!"
If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
44
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:54:00 -
[2526] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards.
you really drew the short straw, didn't you? |
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:55:00 -
[2527] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about. |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:55:00 -
[2528] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Aryth wrote:Hows that for hearsay. When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
Is this a court of law now? |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:55:00 -
[2529] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Tomytronic wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean. Are you going to apologise? apologise for what? Its you goons thats crying not us. Apologise for your use of highly inappropriate and offensive language when referring to an internet spaceship game.
i did not use any language that intended the meaning you are trying to give. I specifically said "the market". You can twist this which ever way you want, so could I give different meanings to anything you say and try and twist it around. |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
111
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:56:00 -
[2530] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about.
This whole thread is hearsay.
Especially this post. |
|
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
401
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:56:00 -
[2531] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about.
Sreegs just misunderstands the mechanic and persists in thinking it is a timing issue when in reality it is a design flaw arising from a market volume issue. Oh well. |
Richter Enderas
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:56:00 -
[2532] - Quote
I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
106
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:56:00 -
[2533] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards. you really drew the short straw, didn't you?
I think of him kinda like Mister Wolf.
We got a deployment, ready to launch, minus some testing.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:56:00 -
[2534] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it. Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?
This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:57:00 -
[2535] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
Um, Sreegs, that's not quite accurate. I hate to sound like I'm defending these idiots, but CCP has, in the past, made some very public examples on occasion.
Ok then I'll just speak for myself and say the same thing. :) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
106
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:58:00 -
[2536] - Quote
Richter Enderas wrote:I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.
Sadly, that term makes them sound cooler than they actually are. Lord of the Pubs has a nice ring to it, and is not fit for whiners.
'veldlords' maybe?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:59:00 -
[2537] - Quote
Tyrion Struan wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones. The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones. edit: or it will drop out when the spoofed transactions leave the 90 day window. However you can trivially do some more to keep the price at normal. That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider. I think, at this time, you should stop doing anything. You are being rash and unthoughtful. What has really happened? A very small group of guys, already filthy rich, and with a better understanding of game mechanics than the dev team, sat down and found a possible flaw in game mechanics. They used this. Precisely the way all CCP commercial say that we should use game mechanics to their full extent. You give us the game, we run with it. Precisely the way Soundwave has been harping about how he loves seeing what we can do with the game that you guys never thought of. If you don't like the way we use the mechanics, fix it. That is fine. But it stops there. What's been done, that didn't violate the EULA, stays. This, after all, is what eve is about. Right now Sreegs you are dealing with a threadnought because you couldn't step back and let the game go on. So they made an extra few bill, who cares? Good on them for being better at eve than CCP. Instead of rolling with it, make a PR stunt out of it, congratulating the players that beat you at your own game, you are now being the heavy handed CCP that couldn't let the sandbox be the sandbox you've promised. You are walking a thin rhetorical line (let's be honest, there is no content in your argument, only rhetoric) , trying to defend why using game mechanics you knowingly implemented in a way you didn't foresee and intend is suddenly an abuse. And an abuse apparently enough to warrant you stepping in and taking stuff away. Sometimes Sreegs its better to step back and let things roll on. Had you really nothing you'd rather spend midsummers doing than dealing with the fallout of a bad call?
This thread was 115 pages before we did anything. What we did do wasn't communicated to you on purpose. Thanks for the advice though buddy. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
220
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:00:00 -
[2538] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richter Enderas wrote:I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before. Sadly, that term makes them sound cooler than they actually are. Lord of the Pubs has a nice ring to it, and is not fit for whiners. 'veldlords' maybe?
There can only be one Veldlord, and his name is Chribba. |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:01:00 -
[2539] - Quote
MY CE-Oh... |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
202
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:01:00 -
[2540] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
CCP Sreegs wrote:You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards. At least we can still count on CCP discussing their internal disagreements in public :popcorn: |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:02:00 -
[2541] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
This is a policy flaw. First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn. Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!" If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm.
No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point.
Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
106
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:03:00 -
[2542] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Ok then I'll just speak for myself and say the same thing. :)
Works for me. Good ethics there.
Though I'll grant that there *is* a significant portion of the server population that would like to see them chopped into itty-bitty pieces and then buried alive.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1153
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:04:00 -
[2543] - Quote
Richter Enderas wrote:I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.
it's a shame i can't negrep you here as well |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:04:00 -
[2544] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about. Sreegs just misunderstands the mechanic and persists in thinking it is a timing issue when in reality it is a design flaw arising from a market volume issue. Oh well.
I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Tyrion Struan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:05:00 -
[2545] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:[quote=Tyrion Struan][quote=CCP Sreegs][quote=Weaselior][quote=CCP Sreegs]
This thread was 115 pages before we did anything. What we did do wasn't communicated to you on purpose. Thanks for the advice though buddy.
You know, not communicating with the player base seem to have been an issue before. Indeed, a lot of what I've been seeming to hear from CCP is that more communication was needed, not less. I don't know how it looks from your end, but from where I am sitting less communication - and your basic message to everyone here (to sod off because this is between you and the individuals) - seem to be about as bad a manner in which to handle this as it possibly could be. That it was 115 pages before you decided to step in may have been a very good sign indeed that some more communication would have been a splendid idea. Would have given a lot of people, me included, far less to shitpost about. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:05:00 -
[2546] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
This is a policy flaw. First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn. Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!" If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm. No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point. Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault.
well if the investigation is still on going, there is not much you can say really, so any communication you give then can be drastically turn on its head since investigation has not concluded! |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
106
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:06:00 -
[2547] - Quote
Tyrion Struan wrote: You know, not communicating with the player base seem to have been an issue before. Indeed, a lot of what I've been seeming to hear from CCP is that more communication was needed, not less. I don't know how it looks from your end, but from where I am sitting less communication - and your basic message to everyone here (to sod off because this is between you and the individuals) - seem to be about as bad a manner in which to handle this as it possibly could be. That it was 115 pages before you decided to step in may have been a very good sign indeed that some more communication would have been a splendid idea. Would have given a lot of people, me included, far less to shitpost about.
Ok, I agree with this, CCP does need better communication. I wouldn't be quite so condescending about it, but it is an ongoing issue that has been a problem since..... they launched beta.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1407
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:06:00 -
[2548] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game.
Isn't he clear enough?
As of now CCP has NOT punished them.
The ISK confiscation is seen as "abuse fix", not as punishment. The punishment is the banning of accounts, which has not been done. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1639
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:06:00 -
[2549] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
This is a policy flaw. First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn. Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!" If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm. No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point. Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault. well if the investigation is still on going, there is not much you can say really, so any communication you give then can be drastically turn on its head since investigation has not concluded!
ugh you've found the fatal flaw in my statement :( "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
52
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:07:00 -
[2550] - Quote
In retrospect, it probably should have been a flat rate per ship.
Example T1 frigate = 5 lp Faction frigate = 7 lp T2 frigate = 10 lp
etc. The purpose of hi sec isn't to eliminate PvP but to weed out the dumb pvpers. |
|
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:07:00 -
[2551] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.
Propaganda campaign makes it sound like we're coordinating our posts in some jabber channel. We're not.
Are we? Someone invite me to the channel, if we are. |
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:08:00 -
[2552] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.
Alright, I will not "twist" your words any longer, I will just state that they are nothing but words on a forum. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:08:00 -
[2553] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:
Propaganda campaign makes it sound like we're coordinating our posts in some jabber channel. We're not.
Are we? Someone invite me to the channel, if we are.
Goonswarm is rather known for it.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:08:00 -
[2554] - Quote
Facepalm..
When will ccp get these issues right..
They really need to get the game designers to read up on biology/ecology..
PRO TIP: Negative Feedback, Population mechanic and and the REAL Circle of LIFE.
Abundant SUN = Abundant Grass -> negative feed back prey predator system..
Without better latteral integration and better negative feedbacks it all begs to be exploited..
CCP claims that its "known issues" and they are working on a fix is getting old, the problem arise from lack of vision of the mentioned mechanics..
EVE got an Economist, but maybe we need a biologist more..
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1639
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:09:00 -
[2555] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers. Propaganda campaign makes it sound like we're coordinating our posts in some jabber channel. We're not. Are we? Someone invite me to the channel, if we are.
If what you're attributing to me is clearly not what I've said then I'm not sure how to phrase it but insert whatever word pleases you most there instead. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
541
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:09:00 -
[2556] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.
Alright, I will not "twist" your words any longer, I will just state that they are nothing but words on a forum.
I think you are sailing about as close to the wind as you can get Holander. You may want to take self enforced break, go and get some fresh air and do something else, before you say something else and get given a break.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:09:00 -
[2557] - Quote
Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now. |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
603
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:10:00 -
[2558] - Quote
Flail around through a thread dropping arrogant ego stroking posts and falling for blatant troll bait; used to be a goon. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Richter Enderas
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
129
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:11:00 -
[2559] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Richter Enderas wrote:I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before. it's a shame i can't negrep you here as well
Hahahahahah you care about rep.
Shed some more crocodile tears, please. |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:12:00 -
[2560] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.
That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.
Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it? This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact.
no no, from what you implied, is that you had known about the flaws from around the time it was released, and that you had already been working on a fix for it, or at least before all this went down. or am I misunderstanding what you said? |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:12:00 -
[2561] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay Oh damn son, you got me there. Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay. We're finished. End of Goonswarm. You repeating the words of others to use as a form of defence, as evidence of any kind, or in the course of a discussion IS hearsay. The only way it could be anything other than hearsay, is if you are the person it happened to. EDIT: For the sake of clarity, the only people qualified to discuss this situation are those who were directly involved. That is to say the 8 people from Goonswarm who perpetrated the acts, and the staff at CCP. Everything else is conjecture and hearsay.
Huh this post moved... It used to be in the middle of the page
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:13:00 -
[2562] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
This is a policy flaw. First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn. Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!" If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm. No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point. Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault. well if the investigation is still on going, there is not much you can say really, so any communication you give then can be drastically turn on its head since investigation has not concluded! ugh you've found the fatal flaw in my statement :(
what i meant is you are NOT at fault. You cant speak about something you dont know specially when you dont know the facts so how goons expect you to release your findings before the facts are gathered, its beyond me!. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
946
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:13:00 -
[2563] - Quote
So I just woke up from a couple hour nap -- has there been any actual updates rather than CCP Sreegs wading back into the murky depths of this thread and promptly getting trolled?
|
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
603
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:13:00 -
[2564] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.
That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.
Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it? This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact. no no, from what you implied, is that you had known about the flaws from around the time it was released, and that you had already been working on a fix for it, or at least before all this went down. or am I misunderstanding what you said?
They knew this was a problem ever since our comments about it when it went live on SiSi and it still wasn't fixed. This is CCP we're talking about here. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Kinis Deren
EVE University Ivy League
55
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:13:00 -
[2565] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now.
Yup, maybe just not the Goons exclusive sandbox, if confirmation of that was really needed |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:14:00 -
[2566] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now.
It is until you hit an arbitrary limit in which it's "abuse" and then get your assets seized. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1639
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:14:00 -
[2567] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.
That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.
Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it? This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact. no no, from what you implied, is that you had known about the flaws from around the time it was released, and that you had already been working on a fix for it, or at least before all this went down. or am I misunderstanding what you said?
I didn't imply since release. I implied prior to being notified. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
AureoBroker
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:15:00 -
[2568] - Quote
Dear goons; again. If anyone had come to ccp and asked "Can we do this?", you KNEW what answer you would've gotten. So, why you did it?
This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics. You can justify it in-lore if you want: Factions would never pay out un-earned rewards, and would launch investigations. Think of CCP as acting in-game, rather than out. Would the Minmatar let you do that? God, no. So, why whine? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:15:00 -
[2569] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:
It takes as long as CCP wants it to take. In this case I understand that your boys settled on automatic 1/week index updates referring to a 3-month market average. But it doesn't matter when CCP chooses to update the market price -- as soon as they do, the item is available for abuse.
Furthermore, the market index STAYS THAT WAY just as long as the manipulator in question WANTS it to stay that way, because the item in question has no normal market volume to correct said index. This is the core of what makes this possible.
Want a backhoe to keep digging that hole? Youre effectively telling then that the timeframe is as long as CCP wants it to be...
Youre giving them the rope, hell youre MAKING the rope theyre measuring to hang you with you do realize that right?
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1411
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:16:00 -
[2570] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i think we all need to thank ccp sreegs for speding his day off to troll the hell out of the alliance he used to run...
Well you cannot find a single man on Earth better able to deal with them, don't you agree? It's like a father and his sons who he caught watching dirty comics. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1154
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:16:00 -
[2571] - Quote
sort of like finding out your sandbox has razor blades hidden in the sand |
Maggie Maggie
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:16:00 -
[2572] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:MeBiatch wrote:i think we all need to thank ccp sreegs for speding his day off to troll the hell out of the alliance he used to run... Well you cannot find a single man on Earth better able to deal with them, don't you agree? It's like a father and his sons who he caught watching dirty comics.
Sreegs isn't half the troll Soundwave is. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:17:00 -
[2573] - Quote
Paint wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. So when are you going to roll back all the wealth from t2 bpo then?
DAMMIT I hate agreeing with Goons...
But at the same time you do realize you just dismantled your own argument right? They HAVE to do something THIS time cause they DIDNT then and they dont want a repeat of the last fiasco.
But then you guys are more hated than BoB was so its all good when you get the hammer dropped on you http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Luis Graca
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:17:00 -
[2574] - Quote
So many people talking about the sandbox
Quick question whats a sandbox and it's limits?
For me i always thing it was a game were everyone plays together and doesn't have limits but now i'm kinda lost |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
542
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:17:00 -
[2575] - Quote
Haquer wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now. It is until you hit an arbitrary limit in which it's "abuse" and then get your assets seized.
It's not arbitrary, it only appears that way because you are an end user, not a developer or IP owner. Arbitrary would imply that it serves no exact purpose, when clearly it does.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:17:00 -
[2576] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:17:00 -
[2577] - Quote
Haquer wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now. It is until you hit an arbitrary limit in which it's "abuse" and then get your assets seized.
you forgot something. Its not your assets, its CCP's assets! Say so in the rights which you obviously never bothered to read! They can take it away any time they choose to, even when they need money for cookies! Have a cookie! My treat! |
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:18:00 -
[2578] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I think you are sailing about as close to the wind as you can get Holander. You may want to take self enforced break, go and get some fresh air and do something else, before you say something else and get given a break.
Oh man, looking out for me. Where would I be without my wing-man, uh, er, whoever you are. I'm going to continue flying higher though and you can go back to being irrelevant. |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
111
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:19:00 -
[2579] - Quote
Luis Graca wrote:So many people talking about the sandbox
Quick question whats a sandbox and it's limits?
For me i always thing it was a game were everyone plays together and doesn't have limits but now i'm kinda lost
The limit is where the sand becomes a great big pile of money for you to roll around in before magicking back into sand. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1640
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:19:00 -
[2580] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb.
I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
542
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:20:00 -
[2581] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I think you are sailing about as close to the wind as you can get Holander. You may want to take self enforced break, go and get some fresh air and do something else, before you say something else and get given a break.
Oh man, looking out for me. Where would I be without my wing-man, uh, er, whoever you are. I'm going to continue flying higher though and you can go back to being irrelevant.
In a game with this many players, we are each as relevant as one another. The fact that you choose to be rude and discourteous to someone merely offering honest advice says little for your character sir. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
38
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:20:00 -
[2582] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.
That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.
Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it? This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact. no no, from what you implied, is that you had known about the flaws from around the time it was released, and that you had already been working on a fix for it, or at least before all this went down. or am I misunderstanding what you said? I didn't imply since release. I implied prior to being notified.
ahh I see. Still there is a small discrepency in your statements, The Devs knew about the problem, but you did not? it sounds like there isnt clear communications from the devs to your team that "Hey, this might be a problem, might want to keep an eye on it." type of deal. And apparently, not confirming or denying anything in this statement, that the devs knew about this from it's introduction on Sisi, I do not have the bug reports or such to view this so cannot say one way or another. |
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:21:00 -
[2583] - Quote
Actually yeah this is a good point, if people were warning them about this before it left sisi, isn't that pretty much consent for whatever was in the patch. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:21:00 -
[2584] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same. Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".
In other words, "assets have been impounded pending further investigation." Which is what we thought. Might have been a little cleaner if that had been announced yesterday though. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Danfen Fenix
Council Of Internal War The Paganism Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:23:00 -
[2585] - Quote
People keep throwing around the word sandbox...
The clue is in the spelling
Sand box
All sandboxes have walls, and goons simply hit them this time Whats the big deal?
One thing I have noticed though with you goons is that, when somethings in your favour, you're all happy. Once it's against you, you whine like theres no tommorow...All the while knocking on people who whine about you.
HTFU? |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:23:00 -
[2586] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way.
Not working as intended?
Oh my.
Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1640
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:23:00 -
[2587] - Quote
corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same. Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists". In other words, "assets have been impounded pending further investigation." Which is what we thought. Might have been a little cleaner if that had been announced yesterday though.
I don't disagree. We should have notified the people we did things to. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Suqq Madiq
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:24:00 -
[2588] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Suqq Madiq wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:sort of like finding out your sandbox has razor blades hidden in the sand I suggest you hand out those razor blades to your fellows and make good use of them. you do know that suggesting someone kills themselves is bannable nowadays?
There are dozens of uses for razor blades. That you jumped to the conclusion they should be used for some kind of mass GOON suicide (which would be a tragedy of epic proportions) is on you, not me. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1640
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:24:00 -
[2589] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. Not working as intended? Oh my. Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do.
If that ever happens I'll agree with you. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
Doctor Benway Kado
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:24:00 -
[2590] - Quote
What a shameful snipe for this page. |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
946
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:25:00 -
[2591] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I don't disagree. We should have notified the people we did things to.
So, learning experience then?
GROUP HUG, EVERYONE! |
Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
1073
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:25:00 -
[2592] - Quote
ok "suqq madiq" i'll try and remember that |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
202
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:26:00 -
[2593] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:you do know that suggesting someone kills themselves is bannable nowadays? because they couldn't possibly implying that people just need to have a shave because they look scruffy?
Wouldn't the razor blades have been worn dull by the sand? It's pretty dangerous using a dull blade. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
948
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:26:00 -
[2594] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do. If that ever happens I'll agree with you.
Ok. Please see this thread for a prime example of it happening. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:27:00 -
[2595] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. Not working as intended? Oh my. Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do. Now now, the police will impound property while investigating a crime, and that's basically what this is, at this point anyway. The police will also usually tell you, but hey, notifications do get delayed sometime. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:28:00 -
[2596] - Quote
Just to save Screegs the typing:
The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:29:00 -
[2597] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. Not working as intended? Oh my. Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do.
Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
948
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:29:00 -
[2598] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Just to save Screegs the typing:
The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.
The scary thing is, some of the BOB people that we threw out of EVE actually did that. Some mecha version of EVE. Very early in it's development but was kinda interesting. |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:30:00 -
[2599] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
If that ever happens I'll agree with you.
So are you saying that you haven't gone asset grabbing... or that you didn't totally fail to comprehend the impact of your changes? |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1640
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:31:00 -
[2600] - Quote
Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
|
|
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:31:00 -
[2601] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.
Is the door located in an environment that is billed as being a sandbox? |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:31:00 -
[2602] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Just to save Screegs the typing:
The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.
The bottom line is clearly stated in the EULA that each and every player is required to agree to upon joining this game. Toleration is not required, but a basic grasp of the rules should be. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:32:00 -
[2603] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game. By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed.
It was like 30 pages ago and may have been already explained, but the ferrogel exploit actually wasn't within parameters of the game - the POS reactors or whatever were continuing to run even when the silos with the inputs were empty. That's clearly a glitch, and if there had been such a glaringly obvious glitch involved here, none of us would have touched it. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:32:00 -
[2604] - Quote
Xython wrote:Imiarr Timshae wrote:Just to save Screegs the typing:
The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.
The scary thing is, some of the BOB people that we threw out of EVE actually did that. Some mecha version of EVE. Very early in it's development but was kinda interesting.
are you talking about the blue print insident? If so, the player is long gone and banned. |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:33:00 -
[2605] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks.
Oh you card. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:33:00 -
[2606] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.
Is the door located in an environment that is billed as being a sandbox?
As was said earlier, the key really is in that word you seem to be hung up on. All boxes have boundaries, they must in order for them to function, without boundaries there would be utter chaos and would bring about the demise of any system fairly rapidly. Until now those boundaries have, for the most part, seemed non-existent because no-one had really found them.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:34:00 -
[2607] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks.
If only you'd do the same to the thread. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:34:00 -
[2608] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.
Is the door located in an environment that is billed as being a sandbox?
is the sandbox yours or theirs? |
Ariel Marquette
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:34:00 -
[2609] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I think you are sailing about as close to the wind as you can get Holander. You may want to take self enforced break, go and get some fresh air and do something else, before you say something else and get given a break.
Oh man, looking out for me. Where would I be without my wing-man, uh, er, whoever you are. I'm going to continue flying higher though and you can go back to being irrelevant. In a game with this many players, we are each as relevant as one another. The fact that you choose to be rude and discourteous to someone merely offering honest advice says little for your character sir.
Friend, you do realize you're addressing a Goon, right? Character has never been their strong suit.
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:38:00 -
[2610] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. Not working as intended? Oh my. Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do. If that ever happens I'll agree with you.
"I'm telling you straight." - CCP Sreegs Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:38:00 -
[2611] - Quote
Ariel Marquette wrote: Friend, you do realize you're addressing a Goon, right? Character has never been their strong suit.
Oh, they're characters, all right. That's what makes this such a wonderful opportunity. It's rare that a major alliance gets *this* pissy with CCP, but goons have managed to do it twice in a few months!
To the tune of Rawhide!: Trollin trollin trollin, get them posters trollin, goonswarm!
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Holander Switzerland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:38:00 -
[2612] - Quote
Richter Enderas wrote:I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.
Hey are you the guy what with is upset he can't say the n-word on fleet comms anymore?
this guy http://soundcloud.com/bonuscan/massive_rant
Edit: found this one too http://soundcloud.com/user3885713/20-more-minutes-of-sperging |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:39:00 -
[2613] - Quote
It's better to do it with music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Ad1AuHriI
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:40:00 -
[2614] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol They will OFFICIALLY have lost control
If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right."
Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1452
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:41:00 -
[2615] - Quote
Aww Sreegs... Don't leave already... |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:41:00 -
[2616] - Quote
Xython wrote: Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.
Mostly because those two things are, generally speaking, mutually exclusive.
and, did I just hear a goon whine about 'what's right?' Excuse me if I find that ******* hilarious.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:41:00 -
[2617] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.
Proof positive the test server is there to hope exploits make it into game
Which made it totally ok to abuse. Right? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Danfen Fenix
Council Of Internal War The Paganism Alliance
114
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:43:00 -
[2618] - Quote
Xython wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol They will OFFICIALLY have lost control If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right." Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.
Last I checked, I thought the community pretty much thought goons had CCP in their back pockets?
What happened? Something not go your way, so suddenly everyones out to get you ? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:44:00 -
[2619] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
I should note that because of the way that the estimated price was calculated - a three month running average - that even if that timing value had run daily, our particular item would have maintained its price, as the volume before and after we bought & sold it to adjust the price would have remained consistent. On any given day up to 90 days after the fact, it would have looked back and said "yep, X units sold, and whoa, 1/2X of those were sold at a really high price, so I guess that makes the average (a really big number)"
Assuming we're right about it's mechanism, of course. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:45:00 -
[2620] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.
stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz (edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)
it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused
playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch Edit: To be clear, you are essentially right. The damage needed fixing, period. In my opinion, what CCP should have done was: 1. Freeze all the accounts with a 7-day suspension. 2. IMMEDIATELY send e-mails to all of the players affected saying something like: "Hey guys, What you did was pretty creative and lots of us think it was cool. Furthermore, we owe you a thank you for coming clean about it. Nevertheless it was a clear design flaw and we can't allow this scale of damage to the economy to remain. Because of that we're locking your accounts for investigation and we plan to remove most of the ISK/assets gained through this infinite loop. Our goal here isn't to punish you but to remove the majority of the damage that would have been caused. Until our investigation is finished the accounts will have to remain locked but we'll compensate you for the account time." 3. Immediately post the same thing on the forums in press-release form. 4. Have PR flunkies saying the same thing to the press. No one really is disputing that they do need to fix the economic damage, but they are going about it hamfistedly, with poor public communication, conflicting statements (Xhagen and Manifest talking to the press.)
TOTALLY doesnt sound like CCP at all. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1412
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:45:00 -
[2621] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:sort of like finding out your sandbox has razor blades hidden in the sand
This is called Karma. Karma is a **tch. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:51:00 -
[2622] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:Xython wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol They will OFFICIALLY have lost control If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right." Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE. Last I checked, I thought the community pretty much thought goons had CCP in their back pockets? What happened? Something not go your way, so suddenly everyones out to get you ?
CCP is in Goon pockets whenever CCP does something that people don't like.
CCP is the noble hero saving everyone from the evil Goons whenever CCP does somethign that people do like.
Goons are Goons either way. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:51:00 -
[2623] - Quote
Ariel Marquette wrote:I am somewhat confused by some of the Goons' commentary here. They are repeatedly claiming that:
1) The game design / mechanics were used as intended. 2) It's not their fault if they thought about how it could be used this way and CCP didn't.
If point 2 is true, then how could point 1 possibly be true? CCP couldn't have intended for the design to be used in this way if they hadn't thought about it being used in this way.
Like it or not, CCP's designated employees are the arbiters of how their property may be used. They are well within their rights to do whatever they please to whomever they please within their game world, whether that seems completely arbitrary or not.
I applaud CCP's efforts to put some real thought into dealing with this situation. As a non-Goon, my solution would have simply been to start throwing Goons out of the game, given that they are so intent on ruining it for as many other people as possible. CCP's restraint is admirable.
I just think its funny how they are so arrogant here they think they can fight this and win when if the rest of us fight back (on the forums not in the game - woo shooting statues) we tend to be violating all manner of spam rules and locking threads etc. Goons have been on the recieving end of this. Remember the open letter to CCP and all during T20 where the forums were actually taken down to stop the threads that were being created?
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:52:00 -
[2624] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
Um, Sreegs, that's not quite accurate. I hate to sound like I'm defending these idiots, but CCP has, in the past, made some very public examples on occasion.
Yeah and you can say his name on the forums now
kugutsumen
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Tolokar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:53:00 -
[2625] - Quote
My question is why is Sreegs or CCP putting up with this? Why isn't this thread locked? Let the investigation occur and be done with it. If you know you didn't exploit or do something illegal you have nothing to worry about. If you did ... Well the. F*ck you and you got what you deserve for being scumbags. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:54:00 -
[2626] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards.
Man that sounds like it sucks.
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:54:00 -
[2627] - Quote
Xython wrote:
CCP is in Goon pockets whenever CCP does something that people don't like.
CCP is the noble hero saving everyone from the evil Goons whenever CCP does somethign that people do like.
Goons are Goons either way.
Minor detail, you left out 'and that absurdly profits goons' on the first one.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1414
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:54:00 -
[2628] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:This is called Karma. Karma is a **tch. There's no such thing. Next thing you'll be saying you believe in elves.
Considering I play a Dark Elvess Sorceress in another PvP MMO...
Edit: proof. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mishraile Viliana
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:55:00 -
[2629] - Quote
Xython wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in. I work at a Casino as a Slot Technician. I repair the slot machines that people waste away college funds on. If they malfunction -- a CODE ERROR -- and pay out a jackpot they're not supposed to, then that's on the player. They get nothing. If they are misconfigured -- a DESIGN ERROR -- and they pay out more over time than they are supposed to, that's on us. The player gets everything (although we shut the machine down and swap it out). The problem here is that this whole thing revolves around a design error. And traditionally, and ethically, CCP can't really nail someone for a design error. That's on them, unfortunately. Now, what I really would like to do but haven't been able to do is as Aryth and Mynnna for a post-mortem on all this. "How could CCP have designed this feature better, preventing this kind of manipulation, while retaining the same general feel." My incomplete knowledge of the whole thing would lead me to think that perhaps they should have had a flag set that noticed when the value of a particular item was jumping by X number of percent in a Y days, which would have prevented the market manipulation of prices that lead to the ISK/LP conversion factor hitting 81 isk/lp. But that's just me, I don't know the full specifics of the mechanic. The way I read the OP is that that they found a way to generate massive amounts of LP, that CCP put a fix that seemed to solve it (discounting dropped items from the calculation) and then they went out of their way to set it up again.
In your comparison that would be. You misconfigure a machine and some clients benefit from it, you find out label it as out of commision while waiting a few days for a replacement to arrive. Just imagine a reason you cannot simple pull that machine out or turn it of and then tell me what you will do with people that play on it while you are waiting for a replacement to get there? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:56:00 -
[2630] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:There are people coding what their design leader tells them to. There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan There's a test server There are bug hunters There is players feedback (hohoho) Then you decide to implement "stuff" Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above. Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed? What the heck? Nobody has been penalized so theyre LYING about the 5 trillion. Ah do they get banned now for rumor mongering as per the OTHER part of that new rule? If they did it wouldn't be any of your business.
Theyd also dissapear in the thread (which they havent, so Im assuming theyre not lying (for once) which might mean that someone else lied. I cant say who though, its against the rules
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:58:00 -
[2631] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Considering I play a Dark Elvess Sorceress in another PvP MMO... Edit: proof.
As a former high elf swordie, I hate your guts. PoS is a *****.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
309
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:00:00 -
[2632] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. Proof positive the test server is there to hope exploits make it into game Which made it totally ok to abuse. Right?
No it doesn't, just clearly shows THIS is a waste of time.
Hybrids revamp, gallente revamp, inventory, just a few examples of worthless time spent giving feedback. brb |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:01:00 -
[2633] - Quote
Xython wrote:
I work at a Casino as a Slot Technician. I repair the slot machines that people waste away college funds on.
If they malfunction -- a CODE ERROR -- and pay out a jackpot they're not supposed to, then that's on the player. They get nothing.
If they are misconfigured -- a DESIGN ERROR -- and they pay out more over time than they are supposed to, that's on us. The player gets everything (although we shut the machine down and swap it out).
The problem here is that this whole thing revolves around a design error. And traditionally, and ethically, CCP can't really nail someone for a design error. That's on them, unfortunately.
I also worked at a Casino, Xy, and I can say that we had that exact situation. I can also say that, we didn't pay out on the design error either, as well as firing the employees involved.
(And, yes, they tried to sue, no, they didn't win. Nice thing about being a Native American casino, under the right circumstances, it has to go to tribal court, where outside lawyers can get you in contempt, easy.)
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:02:00 -
[2634] - Quote
Richter Enderas wrote:I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.
The last time I remember this was the last time I said a few posts back. When the volume of new threads required the forums to be taken down after the open letter and T20 http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:04:00 -
[2635] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:Actually yeah this is a good point, if people were warning them about this before it left sisi, isn't that pretty much consent for whatever was in the patch.
actually but here is where you are wrong. CCP has always said, always ask before you do something that you are not sure if you are gonna be punished or not. I am here for many years and I must admit i came very close myself of abusing something. If its not cos I asked before, I would have been banned. If in doubt, always ask CCP is the modo! |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
110
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:04:00 -
[2636] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote: The last time I remember this was the last time I said a few posts back. When the volume of new threads required the forums to be taken down after the open letter and T20
I was thinking Mittens brush with permaban and arrest, myself.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:05:00 -
[2637] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way.
You didn't intend for mass insurance fraud (which injected new isk into the economy), pax amarria (which was infinitely available and became profitable to refine for its nocxium, thus depressing the price of nocxium to this day), or PI (enriching many players who bought off of NPC sells prior to their removal) to function the way they did, either, and yet people who took advantage of those things were not punished. You sort of see why many people see this as a massive change in precedent, right? CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
296
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:06:00 -
[2638] - Quote
Posting in a thread...
Also....................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHA.
Currently finding it comical that goons pride themselves on ruining other peoples game. But, give the most delicious of tears when someone (in this case CCP) ruins theirs! Do you know what a sh*t-barometer is? It measures the sh*t-pressure in the air, did you hear that? The sounds of the whispering winds of sh*t... |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:06:00 -
[2639] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:I am here for many years and I must admit i came very close myself of abusing something. If its not cos I asked before, I would have been banned. If in doubt, always ask CCP is the modo!
I was once told by CCP that I had to stop using a certain fitting, because it was too powerful at that time. (Seems it would have let me tank concord)
So, yeah, does not matter if you can, you should always ask 'Should I?'
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
470
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:07:00 -
[2640] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:Xython wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol They will OFFICIALLY have lost control If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right." Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE. Last I checked, I thought the community pretty much thought goons had CCP in their back pockets? What happened? Something not go your way, so suddenly everyones out to get you ?
Everyone was out to get us when they thought we had CCP in our pockets. We didn't start that rumor. Now that CCP is coming down on some guys in CFC, the community is smugging over having themselves proven wrong. I don't get it. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
470
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:08:00 -
[2641] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Posting in a thread...
Also....................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHA.
Currently finding it comical that goons pride themselves on ruining other peoples game. But, give the most delicious of tears when someone (in this case CCP) ruins theirs!
Having your game ruined by a player is one thing. Having it ruined by the company is another. How can you not see this? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:09:00 -
[2642] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Actually yeah this is a good point, if people were warning them about this before it left sisi, isn't that pretty much consent for whatever was in the patch. actually but here is where you are wrong. CCP has always said, always ask before you do something that you are not sure if you are gonna be punished or not. I am here for many years and I must admit i came very close myself of abusing something. If its not cos I asked before, I would have been banned. If in doubt, always ask CCP is the modo! if you ask CCP first, they will either say "no" or they will say "yes" and change their mind retroactively.
alliance tournament drama demonstrated the value & reliability of GM answers quite well. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:09:00 -
[2643] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: Having your game ruined by a player is one thing. Having it ruined by the company is another. How can you not see this?
Maybe because the end result is exactly the same, for the recipient?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:11:00 -
[2644] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote: if you ask CCP first, they will either say "no" or they will say "yes" and change their mind retroactively.
alliance tournament drama demonstrated the value & reliability of GM answers quite well.
Always get it by email, rather than in game. If CCP punishes you too harshly for following the GM's decision, there is, actually, precedent for legal action against CCP, regardless of the EULA, at that point.
It hasn't been done specifically with video games, yet, but it has been done with aerospace contracts.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:12:00 -
[2645] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Actually yeah this is a good point, if people were warning them about this before it left sisi, isn't that pretty much consent for whatever was in the patch. actually but here is where you are wrong. CCP has always said, always ask before you do something that you are not sure if you are gonna be punished or not. I am here for many years and I must admit i came very close myself of abusing something. If its not cos I asked before, I would have been banned. If in doubt, always ask CCP is the modo! if you ask CCP first, they will either say "no" or they will say "yes" and change their mind retroactively. alliance tournament drama demonstrated the value & reliability of GM answers quite well.
at last you got letter and you ar covered so they cant act on you. If you act without asking is the same as the law that says "just cos you did not know its a violation of the law, it does not grants you immunity!. You sill violated the law and you cant hide behind the - I did not know the law" Always ask before acting ! Then you know and you are coverd cos you got evidence! |
Ariel Marquette
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:13:00 -
[2646] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Posting in a thread...
Also....................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHA.
Currently finding it comical that goons pride themselves on ruining other peoples game. But, give the most delicious of tears when someone (in this case CCP) ruins theirs! Having your game ruined by a player is one thing. Having it ruined by the company is another. How can you not see this?
Having your game ruined by players for no reason other than lulz is one thing. Having your game ruined by the company for pissing in their sandbox and then continuing to do it after they attempt to correct the issue is completely different.
When Goons do bad things to others, the victims usually didn't really deserve it, but hey, that's all part of EVE. When Goons have Bad ThingsGäó happen to them, it's usually because they crossed the line and probably deserve more than what they've got coming to them. How can you not see this? |
RDevz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:14:00 -
[2647] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be.
I'm sorry, Sreegs, but the precise correlation between the information you communicated in this statement, and the facts in so far as they can be determined and demonstrated by this dev blog by GM Salmon, your VP of Customer Relations, causes epistemological problems of sufficient a magnitude as to place upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.
~10,058~ |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1452
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:14:00 -
[2648] - Quote
The thread title is misleading. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:16:00 -
[2649] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first. To expand on this: The problem here had nothing to do with timing. It had to do with items that have no market volume, because they are useless, and yet are available from the Faction Warfare store. For example: Let's say there is an item, which I'll call 'Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r' for the sake of simplicity. This item has literally no use in the game except allowing the pilot who has it fitted to always efficiently complete every z0r chain he sees. Because few people care about this ability, the market price of this item languishes around 5 million ISK, with about 100 of them actually being traded per month. The Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r, meanwhile, is available from LP stores for 5 million ISK and 5000 LP. This makes it extremely unprofitable to buy with LP. But, now let's say that I take advantage of the item's low market volume to increase its average price. I do this by buying 5,000 of the 44-z0r Boondoggle (from the LP store, naturally), putting them on the market for 500M ISK apiece, and then buying out my own sell order. This costs me a tiny amount of ISK in the form of broker fees, as well as 25B ISK to get the material initially. But now the average price of that item is just under 500M ISK, since my own sales (to myself) utterly dominate the normal market volume of the Boondoggle in question. Now all of a sudden the worth of this item is 500M ISK. That means that for each Boondoggle I blow up, I get 50,000 LP. Basically I can now buy 50,000 LP for the cost of 5M ISK and 5,000 LP invested. (This is 111.11 ISK per LP, right around the actual value cited in Aryth's article.) Now then, what is the takeaway from my explanation? The takeaway is that there is no timing issue like Sreegs is saying. The market value of that item isn't affected by me repeatedly blowing it up for profit. It still has no use and it still isn't being sold on the market. I couldn't do this to a normal item, because the sales volume on the normal market would make my attempt at manipulation invisible. This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem. It is a design flaw. Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)
Best explanation so far. Thank you! |
Azami Nevinyrall
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
297
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:16:00 -
[2650] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Posting in a thread...
Also....................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHA.
Currently finding it comical that goons pride themselves on ruining other peoples game. But, give the most delicious of tears when someone (in this case CCP) ruins theirs! Having your game ruined by a player is one thing. Having it ruined by the company is another. How can you not see this? Well, it is CCPs game, and in the terms and conditions simply states that THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT If you do not like it, then you can always decline and simply not play. Do you know what a sh*t-barometer is? It measures the sh*t-pressure in the air, did you hear that? The sounds of the whispering winds of sh*t... |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:17:00 -
[2651] - Quote
RDevz wrote:I'm sorry, Sreegs, but the precise correlation between the information you communicated in this statement, and the facts in so far as they can be determined and demonstrated by this dev blog by GM Salmon, your VP of Customer Relations, causes epistemological problems of sufficient a magnitude as to place upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.
RDevz, this was already pointed out. Along with another, more famous, example.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:18:00 -
[2652] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote:The thread title is misleading.
It wasn't before they found that there were sharp objects in the sandbox that punctured their tires.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:18:00 -
[2653] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote: Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)
How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
If you don't know, perhaps you should bow out of this conversation. But to my knowledge, Aryth posts in the OP someplace that it is ran by hand by someone at CCP on Friday evenings. |
RDevz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:19:00 -
[2654] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
RDevz, this was already pointed out. Along with another, more famous, example.
I know. I just wanted to take this opportunity to quote Sir Humphrey.
~10,058~ |
SavageBastard
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:19:00 -
[2655] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way.
You did not intend for players to blow each other up harvesting rewards to then buy ships and then blow each other up again? I thought that was the selling point for FW. Or games in general actually. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:20:00 -
[2656] - Quote
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:one day goons are going to cure cancer
And the publords will ***** at us for causing a population crisis. |
Project X5
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:21:00 -
[2657] - Quote
This thread is now about turtles |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:24:00 -
[2658] - Quote
Xython wrote:RAP ACTION HERO wrote:one day goons are going to cure cancer And the publords will ***** at us for causing a population crisis.
What's funny is that in certain pubs, being a goon gets your face punched in.
And as Lord of the Pubs, I hereby end this post by hoisting a pint of fine, brown ale to the devs.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:31:00 -
[2659] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about. Sreegs just misunderstands the mechanic and persists in thinking it is a timing issue when in reality it is a design flaw arising from a market volume issue. Oh well. I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.
Theres gotta be a rule against it eh?
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:32:00 -
[2660] - Quote
This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it. |
|
Minerva Seraph
Omicron Lyrae Shipyards
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:32:00 -
[2661] - Quote
Dear Sreegs,
There may be a handful of players of the Caldari Achura persuasion who are clinging on to their +2 attributes for dear life.
Now I know I should have pointed this out literally years ago, when the mechanics changed. I know that any true patriot should have used any of the 3 attribute reassignments given to them to make it happen. Heck, I even know that the 2M-4M SP that's sitting on those accounts should have been more than enough to compensate for the sacrifice made for that reassignment.
But they were grandfathered, and those unethical jerks are continuing to benefit from their exploit of the system.
Now I'd never do such a thing. Well, do such a thing and admit it. And I ask that you don't check my account, because there's really no cause. I know that "cause" doesn't exist in the CCP realm and that you're free to do whatever. But seriously, please don't. I'd hate to lose millions of SP because I may have been retroactively exploiting the system for my own benefit. At least until the sale of the character, in which case by all means.
But enough is enough.
What I'm saying is that, While CCP ultimately calls the shots, there are many examples of CCP being inconsistent with how petitions and "broken rules" are dealt with. I'm sure some of the current staffers were also players who had to fight hard upstream to get some sanity out of the system. But when things happen within the given rules of play - and it's reasonable to push things to their limits (have you seen warhammer tournaments?) - you've got to let it go and move on. Wizards of the Coast didn't invalidate Skullclamp wins (it's a Magic the Gathering thing). Fancy the Famous Bard didn't have his massacre overturned on an Everquest Server, but instead had the first real game play rule established.
I'm sure there's something to be said about alpha-clones acting as tax collectors that have pushed the limits at times...
A lot of us expected the rule of the game to be "If it's the logical ends of the code, so be it" - with the exception of CCP's rulings, applied forward. Metagaming cartels, products of market orders and refining, and spreadsheet abuse don't break the rules. Reacting limitless amounts of moon materials did break the rules.
Let it be. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
114
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:34:00 -
[2662] - Quote
Xython wrote:This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it.
Erase all the toons, close the server, put the game through 8 months development and open it as EvE II and force everyone to start over.
Then everyone explodes.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Ariel Marquette
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:34:00 -
[2663] - Quote
Xython wrote:This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it.
Goons are "everyone who values the sandbox"? You really do think too much of yourselves. No one other than Goons and Goon cronies (looking at you, TEST) are going to be upset about anything bad happening to Goons. |
Reptail
SPACE LIGHT EMPIRE
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:35:00 -
[2664] - Quote
Project X5 wrote:This thread is now about turtles
This thread now is about insects
Im on eve from 2005 sadly for you lol , I always have been a lone wolf in eve (didnt need a corp) and lost many billions in ship by ganking piwates , and killed just 4 ... (i dont care one day will be my turn ...)
but
What CCP did looks very wrong to me, their game was broken they just used game mechanics , let' CCP hear us EVE players , eve is us , they only satisfy our drug monkey (eve)
I predict another jita revolution . . . (and i'm ready to get banned for this i don't care, until things works right) |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
119
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:37:00 -
[2665] - Quote
I am more interested in a dev blog on 'communication' between CCP and the players when it comes to testing and such things. Regardless of what those guys did, I really feel like the root cause of all of this is the break down of communication between us and CCP.
I know for a fact that this design loophole was pointed out on FHC prior to the expansion and I am sure it was reported from SiSi testing. So my question is; why was it not addressed then and what steps can be taken to ensure CCP and us have far better communication in the future.
We all want the sandbox to be health and fun. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
951
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:38:00 -
[2666] - Quote
Ariel Marquette wrote:Xython wrote:This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it. Goons are "everyone who values the sandbox"? You really do think too much of yourselves. No one other than Goons and Goon cronies (looking at you, TEST) are going to be upset about anything bad happening to Goons.
I know this is going to be hard for a sockpuppet to understand, but not everyone who supports us are actually Goons. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:38:00 -
[2667] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it. Erase all the toons, close the server, put the game through 8 months development and open it as EvE II and force everyone to start over. Then everyone explodes. This would own. In a world where frigates are top dog, goons rule the universe. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
114
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:38:00 -
[2668] - Quote
Minerva Seraph wrote:But when things happen within the given rules of play - and it's reasonable to push things to their limits (have you seen warhammer tournaments?) - you've got to let it go and move on. Wizards of the Coast didn't invalidate Skullclamp wins (it's a Magic the Gathering thing). Fancy the Famous Bard didn't have his massacre overturned on an Everquest Server, but instead had the first real game play rule established.
I'll counter those with a Warhammer one: Empire In Flames. Also the shenanigans surrounding 13th Black Crusade for 40k, where non-chaos wins were magically counted several times in the BFG portion of the campaign to prevent a total shut out by Chaos.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:39:00 -
[2669] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:RAP ACTION HERO wrote:one day goons are going to cure cancer And the publords will ***** at us for causing a population crisis. What's funny is that in certain pubs, being a goon gets your face punched in. And as Lord of the Pubs, I hereby end this post by hoisting a pint of fine, brown ale to the devs.
****. I wish I had a job were I could **** up twice, keep my job, and be toasted for it. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
114
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:41:00 -
[2670] - Quote
corestwo wrote:This would own. In a world where frigates are top dog, goons rule the universe.
Don't know the swarms own history then? Goons used to do exactly that against BoB with newb ships. There is the problem though of no one actually having the isk to start an alliance, however...
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
114
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:42:00 -
[2671] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:
****. I wish I had a job were I could **** up twice, keep my job, and be toasted for it.
Become a tax auditor, or a senior member of management.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Ariel Marquette
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:43:00 -
[2672] - Quote
Perhaps the investigation should last until the winter expansion is due. CCP could then launch the "No More Goons" expansion. It would really be the greatest release in years. |
Ariel Marquette
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:44:00 -
[2673] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:RAP ACTION HERO wrote:one day goons are going to cure cancer And the publords will ***** at us for causing a population crisis. What's funny is that in certain pubs, being a goon gets your face punched in. And as Lord of the Pubs, I hereby end this post by hoisting a pint of fine, brown ale to the devs. ****. I wish I had a job were I could **** up twice, keep my job, and be toasted for it.
Any government job should do. As a bonus, you won't be expected to produce anything of value.
|
Tear Miner
Republic University Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:45:00 -
[2674] - Quote
I've clicked the blue dev button so many times. The rest of us should just stop posting. Sreegs pretty much /thread'd this forum thread like 50x.
I find it hilarious there's this much butthurt over this problem. It seems pretty simple at this point, if you don't understand, maybe you should just take yourself out of the gene pool. Although playing Eve usually proves that case already true |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:45:00 -
[2675] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.
Alright, I will not "twist" your words any longer, I will just state that they are nothing but words on a forum.
I think you just made his point for him actually
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Nakkano
Internet Space Pimps
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:46:00 -
[2676] - Quote
Well done Goons. This game needs you for exactly this reason.. pushing the boundary of the sandbox environment. Breaking all the things that were never considered. So in a way this is a good deed, although there will be a penalty most likely, you must carry on and continue doing what you do.
And to be fair, punishing the goons wallet will hurt them yes, but they are not the only ones who have benefited here. Everyone with buy orders of minmatar FW items soaking up these item dumps has benefited greatly as well with the price rebound after this event. So really the ones hurt are those that were competing to sell items while Goons crashed the markets, while buyers made bank. A mixed bag of casualties and winners.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
475
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:47:00 -
[2677] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:corestwo wrote:This would own. In a world where frigates are top dog, goons rule the universe. Don't know the swarms own history then? Goons used to do exactly that against BoB with newb ships. There is the problem though of no one actually having the isk to start an alliance, however...
No, I don't just happen to be a goon who's played since 2006, including during the period when BoB thought invading syndicate was significant, so I'm totally unfamiliar with our tactics at the time. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:48:00 -
[2678] - Quote
Ariel Marquette wrote:Perhaps the investigation should last until the winter expansion is due. CCP could then launch the "No More Goons" expansion. It would really be the greatest release in years.
Only if they did away with alliances all together and gave corps a hard limit of 50 players. That would be fun to watch.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Geoscape
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:49:00 -
[2679] - Quote
Wow what a shitstorm. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
951
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:51:00 -
[2680] - Quote
One thing to take from this is to make sure if you do something like this to prove a point, make sure you do it on an alt, or at the very least keep good accounting notes. |
|
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:54:00 -
[2681] - Quote
What I take away from this is that some people spend too much time playing Eve, and that as soon as you start breaking out the spreadsheet to work out how best to take advantage of an exploit, you might as well go and shoot yourself. |
Powers Sa
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
232
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:57:00 -
[2682] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first. To expand on this: The problem here had nothing to do with timing. It had to do with items that have no market volume, because they are useless, and yet are available from the Faction Warfare store. For example: Let's say there is an item, which I'll call 'Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r' for the sake of simplicity. This item has literally no use in the game except allowing the pilot who has it fitted to always efficiently complete every z0r chain he sees. Because few people care about this ability, the market price of this item languishes around 5 million ISK, with about 100 of them actually being traded per month. The Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r, meanwhile, is available from LP stores for 5 million ISK and 5000 LP. This makes it extremely unprofitable to buy with LP. But, now let's say that I take advantage of the item's low market volume to increase its average price. I do this by buying 5,000 of the 44-z0r Boondoggle (from the LP store, naturally), putting them on the market for 500M ISK apiece, and then buying out my own sell order. This costs me a tiny amount of ISK in the form of broker fees, as well as 25B ISK to get the material initially. But now the average price of that item is just under 500M ISK, since my own sales (to myself) utterly dominate the normal market volume of the Boondoggle in question. Now all of a sudden the worth of this item is 500M ISK. That means that for each Boondoggle I blow up, I get 50,000 LP. Basically I can now buy 50,000 LP for the cost of 5M ISK and 5,000 LP invested. (This is 111.11 ISK per LP, right around the actual value cited in Aryth's article.) Now then, what is the takeaway from my explanation? The takeaway is that there is no timing issue like Sreegs is saying. The market value of that item isn't affected by me repeatedly blowing it up for profit. It still has no use and it still isn't being sold on the market. I couldn't do this to a normal item, because the sales volume on the normal market would make my attempt at manipulation invisible. This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem. It is a design flaw. Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)
Game. Set.
z 0 r z 0 r z 0 r Match. |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:00:00 -
[2683] - Quote
i cannot believe how many of my drunken poasts made it through the dev pruning process. also. p.e.n.i.s.
i'm all for the suggestion to reboot eve where everyone starts from scratch. dibs on the name The Mittani |
Fix Lag
303
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:00:00 -
[2684] - Quote
I don't get which part was against the rules, Sreegs, so maybe you can point it out for me: was it the part where they bought and sold things on the market or the part where they blew it up? |
Alain Kinsella
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:01:00 -
[2685] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Vera Algaert wrote: if you ask CCP first, they will either say "no" or they will say "yes" and change their mind retroactively.
alliance tournament drama demonstrated the value & reliability of GM answers quite well.
Always get it by email, rather than in game. If CCP punishes you too harshly for following the GM's decision, there is, actually, precedent for legal action against CCP, regardless of the EULA, at that point. It hasn't been done specifically with video games, yet, but it has been done with aerospace contracts.
Braggs v. Linden Lab
Player discovers he can bid on land before it comes up in auction (manipulating a web page argument), gains several islands without bid fighting (timer started when he bid, expired and won before listed). LL bans, he sues (they are not cheap).
I believe they settled after a couple years, not sure of the outcome. The land was worthless by then anyway.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:04:00 -
[2686] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:
Braggs v. Linden Lab
Player discovers he can bid on land before it comes up in auction (manipulating a web page argument), gains several islands without bid fighting (timer started when he bid, expired and won before listed). LL bans, he sues (they are not cheap).
I believe they settled after a couple years, not sure of the outcome. The land was worthless by then anyway.
Was not aware of that one. Kudos.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:12:00 -
[2687] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks.
go spain!
but we all know de Germans will win in the end...
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:13:00 -
[2688] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:I don't get which part was against the rules, Sreegs, so maybe you can point it out for me: was it the part where they bought and sold things on the market or the part where they blew it up?
dont worry your pretty little head you dont have to understand... its not a rule for gameplay...
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:13:00 -
[2689] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks. go spain! but we all know de Germans will win in the end...
i love spain but i must admit thee germans are very likell to win at the end |
Reptail
SPACE LIGHT EMPIRE
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:14:00 -
[2690] - Quote
The point is CCP is taking a wrong direction
and not only , they do not care about Eve
but i know some old devs do!,
Actually some ppl care about EvE
instead of crappy players who just **** in their panties! |
|
Fix Lag
304
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:16:00 -
[2691] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Fix Lag wrote:I don't get which part was against the rules, Sreegs, so maybe you can point it out for me: was it the part where they bought and sold things on the market or the part where they blew it up? dont worry your pretty little head you dont have to understand... its not a rule for gameplay...
"its not a rule for gameplay"
I'd like you to expand on this. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:17:00 -
[2692] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:
I'd like you to expand on this.
It's sort of like when you use it against goons it's an exploit, but if they use it against you, it's a feature.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:19:00 -
[2693] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Fix Lag wrote:I don't get which part was against the rules, Sreegs, so maybe you can point it out for me: was it the part where they bought and sold things on the market or the part where they blew it up? dont worry your pretty little head you dont have to understand... its not a rule for gameplay... "its not a rule for gameplay" I'd like you to expand on this.
sorry i did not see a please and thank you in there...
how rude...
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Dodeca Hedron
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:23:00 -
[2694] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:I don't get which part was against the rules, Sreegs, so maybe you can point it out for me: was it the part where they bought and sold things on the market or the part where they blew it up?
This is also the part where I am hung up on. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:23:00 -
[2695] - Quote
Xython wrote:So I just woke up from a couple hour nap -- has there been any actual updates rather than CCP Sreegs wading back into the murky depths of this thread and promptly getting trolled?
Funny given that trolling itself is supposedly against the forum rules
but yeah THATS just funny imo
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:28:00 -
[2696] - Quote
You have got to be joking me. What I get from this is Goons took a game mechanic that had vulnerabilities, took advantage of it to make mega bucks, and doesn't want to give it back, as well as anyone else that happen to have done it.
1) If the Isk doesn't throw the game totally out of balance, CCP should tell ya to keep it. If it does throw it out of balance the participants that got it, have to give it back! it's that simple, like it or lump it. It's CCP's Call.
2) Shut the heck up about it, and move on.
3) If ya don't shut up, CCP always has the ban hammer, Participants that did this can always unsubscribe.
Goon'es ya all sound like a bunch of GD drama queens. I personally hope CCP just buries this in your butts. You deserve it for following that idiot.
|
Piranhas
The Milkmen Test Alliance Please Ignore
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:28:00 -
[2697] - Quote
So if this isn't intended gameplay what about:
Titans - There is a lot of them
Supercarriers - ^ see above
Tech
T2 BPOs
Just to give a few good examples. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:29:00 -
[2698] - Quote
Haquer wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now. It is until you hit an arbitrary limit in which it's "abuse" and then get your assets seized.
Funny, just like everyone else lol
Or rather I should say, now the rules apply to you too. Kinda the same stuff you guys were screaming when you started doing thing BoB was doing that were afterwards said to be exploits. This is all very "not learning from history and doomed to repeat it" to me
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
SwahiliRapist Zuluabortion
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:31:00 -
[2699] - Quote
Aryth wrote:This is a story of what happens when the sandbox gets so complicated, it becomes possible for truly magical opportunities. Greed IS GoodWe went straight to plaid When Eve Online: Inferno was released, most people were underwhelmed. Missile effects were pretty, but functionally useless; ship balancing was mediocre; the inventory revamp was a complete disaster, and most people were simply wondering what the point of the whole thing was. There was even a revamp to Faction Warfare, an oft-maligned, unfun feature of the game. Most people wrote it off as CCP throwing a bone to the few subscribers who stuck around for that sort of thing. Most people are myopic. But not the Snip. Don't use ethnic stereotype slurs. -Guard bal. Occasionally you will see the odd forum poster that throws out wild conspiracy theories about shadowy figures controlling parts of the game, or in the case of the especially insane, Goons controlling the game. This has never been true...until now. As weGÇÖve said, in most ways, Inferno was a bust. But a throwaway blog about an obscure part of the upcoming faction warfare revamp was much more interesting than it seemed. A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. The revamp to Faction Warfare in Inferno was the single biggest mistake CCP has ever made. It was bigger than guidance systems, which merely made us a couple of trillion isk. It was certainly bigger than deleting boot.ini, which merely cost CCP some bad press. It was possibly even bigger than Incarna, a potentially game ruining GÇÿexpansionGÇÖ *** cash grab. Simply put, Inferno was released with a way to destroy the value of missions. InfernoGÇÖs big design mistake was that it was released with a literal currency fountain, very nearly without limit. Unbeknownst to themselves, CCP had accidentally delved into the world of forex, providing a way to exchange one currency (isk) for another (LP) with only a few checks and balances built into the system. The original theory came about as many of the theories in the Snip. Don't use ethnic stereotype slurs. -Guard bal do: Aryth wondering what the implications of X may be if we did Y. Every theory in the collective is always vetted, and so, Mynnna went to work on a super spreadsheet. This sheet would end up breaking down every niche of FW into its components and checking them for leaks; much like everything in Spreadsheets Online, once created, the sheet had to be tested via running the numbers countless times. Luckily, they added up. It was time to wreck some pubby wallets :commissar: When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the playerGÇÖs kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off. We laid in wait. Much of what we believed to be true could not be tested on SISI. Patch day came and we immediately moved into action, enrolling alts into Minmatar FW & Amarr FW and moving freighters full of delicious zydrine/nocxium/megacyte into position. Goons had been invested heavily in minerals pre-patch, and with the massive recession all of EVE went into post CCP changes, Burn Jita, and Hulkageddon, we wanted to give them a way to cash out as well as get rich ourselves. Therefore, the test would start with a simple, yet hilarious murder of several innocent freighters full of extremely valuable highends. Freighter DeathThis also meant that we could cash out our hundreds of billions of ISK worth of minerals at prices far higher than on the market. For example, we cashed out Megacyte at 3300, Zydrine 1400, Nocxium at 900. So some of the very largest stockpiles of pre-drone nerf minerals no longer exists. Tying back into the mineral manipulation we have been engaging in. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again.
and you got more friends now? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1112
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:31:00 -
[2700] - Quote
Piranhas wrote:So if this isn't intended gameplay what about:
Titans - There is a lot of them Titans are rare, a major alliance might have one or two, some might even have as many as four titans.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:34:00 -
[2701] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. If anyone had come to ccp and asked "Can we do this?", you KNEW what answer you would've gotten. So, why you did it?
This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics. You can justify it in-lore if you want: Factions would never pay out un-earned rewards, and would launch investigations. Think of CCP as acting in-game, rather than out. Would the Minmatar let you do that? God, no. So, why whine?
But ... but ... we're here to destroy YOUR game. lol
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
478
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:35:00 -
[2702] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Piranhas wrote:So if this isn't intended gameplay what about:
Titans - There is a lot of them Titans are rare, a major alliance might have one or two, some might even have as many as four titans. "64K of ram will be enough for anyone."
"There is market in the world for maybe 5 computers"
"ThereGÇÖs no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance."
. |
Reptail
SPACE LIGHT EMPIRE
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:35:00 -
[2703] - Quote
i've hundreds gallons of beer meet me at jita 4-4 memorial
gotta go out soon (btw) |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
492
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:36:00 -
[2704] - Quote
ITT: People taking Eve seriously.
Go get some sun.
Seriously.
You know there's something fundamentally wrong when the only way people can think of to promote the "best" part of the game is to make everything else suck more. |
SwahiliRapist Zuluabortion
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:38:00 -
[2705] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. If anyone had come to ccp and asked "Can we do this?", you KNEW what answer you would've gotten. So, why you did it?
This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics. You can justify it in-lore if you want: Factions would never pay out un-earned rewards, and would launch investigations. Think of CCP as acting in-game, rather than out. Would the Minmatar let you do that? God, no. So, why whine? But ... but ... we're here to destroy YOUR game. lol
Congratulations to you then in wasting your life
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:38:00 -
[2706] - Quote
Luis Graca wrote:So many people talking about the sandbox
Quick question whats a sandbox and it's limits?
For me i always thing it was a game were everyone plays together and doesn't have limits but now i'm kinda lost
Dunno; I never played in a sandbox that didnt have those wooden walls all around it and grass beyond that.
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:41:00 -
[2707] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
ahh I see. Still there is a small discrepency in your statements, The Devs knew about the problem, but you did not? it sounds like there isnt clear communications from the devs to your team that "Hey, this might be a problem, might want to keep an eye on it." type of deal. And apparently, not confirming or denying anything in this statement, that the devs knew about this from it's introduction on Sisi, I do not have the bug reports or such to view this so cannot say one way or another.
Yeah you know cause theyre totally not human and infallable being omnipotent beings like you are after all http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:44:00 -
[2708] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:People keep throwing around the word sandbox... The clue is in the spelling Sand boxAll sandboxes have walls, and goons simply hit them this time Whats the big deal? One thing I have noticed though with you goons is that, when somethings in your favour, you're all happy. Once it's against you, you whine like theres no tommorow...All the while knocking on people who whine about you, or things you agree with. HTFU?
You sir are wise
Tallon Sylph wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. Not working as intended? Oh my. Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do.
I didnt think Goons were so poor that 5 trillion would hurt so much. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Reptail
SPACE LIGHT EMPIRE
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:47:00 -
[2709] - Quote
c'mon do not be shy if u believe in what u r doing
come shooot jita mem |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:48:00 -
[2710] - Quote
Xython wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:I don't disagree. We should have notified the people we did things to. So, learning experience then? GROUP HUG, EVERYONE!
I believe the term is HTFU or maybe UMAD BRO?
Or is it pubbie? Maybe youre CCP's pubbies now...
Xython wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do. If that ever happens I'll agree with you. Ok. Please see this thread for a prime example of it happening.
Ah, I understand, thats the disconnect. YOU see "asset grabbing", the rest of us see "market correction"
some see "justice" http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
493
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:49:00 -
[2711] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:or maybe UMAD BRO? 136 pages? They PISSED!
You know there's something fundamentally wrong when the only way people can think of to promote the "best" part of the game is to make everything else suck more. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:52:00 -
[2712] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:or maybe UMAD BRO? 136 pages? They PISSED!
Well no not really, the ones after the open letter and T20 were much longer and filled with many MORE of them and less ppl fighting against them. Also the supposed "DDOS" that brought down the forums (or thats what I heard after the fact, I think the official word was they were taken down to stop thousands of ppl from spamming them).
Xython wrote:Imiarr Timshae wrote:Just to save Screegs the typing:
The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.
The scary thing is, some of the BOB people that we threw out of EVE actually did that. Some mecha version of EVE. Very early in it's development but was kinda interesting.
Yeah its called Mechwarrior Online. Wheres he proof that they are BoB? I WOULD like to see that paper trail. Unless of course it doesnt exist.
Unless its another game http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Kuzim Blaky'all
Recycling and Recovery
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:57:00 -
[2713] - Quote
Sup dawg!
dawgs use to say a dawg was causin' abuse but stoppin a dawg, dig it, they was no use but dig it dawg, re-re wasn't brakin' da law, mi was jus recyclied, and gettin up a dawg craw but ain no need for any but a reaper its tru, jus always need to stop a bad dawg who get thru an wreck up mi gig by bustin' mi boat makin it hard for re-re jus to stay afloat,
but dig it dawg, mi always have a way to get thru, you stop wi gig, yo messin' wit recyclien crew. you stop mi from gettin mad stacks of cash, yo gig is gonan end up tossed out wit da trash let re-re live on, let a dawg get him goods by lettin' mi posse into da filthy hoods best be let mi pack gettin they a full rack kuz if you mess wit kuzim him will always be back.
word dawg be safe. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:59:00 -
[2714] - Quote
Wow 136 pages! This thread is amazing.
Also I'd just like to point out
CCP nerfs tracking titans -> OMG CCP are working for goons!
CCP nerfs wardeck allies -> OMG CCP are working for goons!
CCP ignores hulkageddon tears -> OMG CCP are working for goons!
CCP does damage control after an exploit -> OMG CCP are out to get goons!
No matter what you do (or don't do) someone is going to get buttmad. And this is why people think that CCP ignores the forums, because it's a monkey house in here.
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Yeah its called Mechwarrior Online. Wheres he proof that they are BoB? I WOULD like to see that paper trail. Unless of course it doesnt exist. Perpetuum actually. I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544 |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:01:00 -
[2715] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote: Yeah its called Mechwarrior Online. Wheres he proof that they are BoB?
Dunno about mech warrior, but they as far as I have seen in other mmos they seem to use the same names they had here. Unless it's goons trolling them.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:01:00 -
[2716] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:Wow 136 pages! This thread is amazing. Also I'd just like to point out CCP nerfs tracking titans -> OMG CCP are working for goons! CCP nerfs wardeck allies -> OMG CCP are working for goons! CCP ignores hulkageddon tears -> OMG CCP are working for goons! CCP does damage control after an exploit -> OMG CCP are out to get goons! No matter what you do (or don't do) someone is going to get buttmad. And this is why people think that CCP ignores the forums, because it's a monkey house in here. Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Yeah its called Mechwarrior Online. Wheres he proof that they are BoB? I WOULD like to see that paper trail. Unless of course it doesnt exist. Perpetuum actually.
ccp is like fox news... fair and balanced
PLEX FOR PIZZA! -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:04:00 -
[2717] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:
ccp is like fox news... fair and balanced
Really, if you get down to it though, tossing out the alliance mechanic, limiting the size of corps, and erasing 9 years of accumulated wealth and SP would, actually, make the game fair and balanced.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:07:00 -
[2718] - Quote
Under the current system, the best CCP can hope for is to reduce the margin gain on market outliers. Jewbal did it at 81 ISK/LP, but even at 810 ISK/LP it's a profit.
The entire "let's base a reward system on player-determined market prices" idea ought to be scrapped. It's a shadow insurance system that messes up all of EVE.
And for what? There are other ways to reward for enemy militia kills, say, pocketing a chunk of their LPs. |
Reptail
SPACE LIGHT EMPIRE
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:08:00 -
[2719] - Quote
s.h.i.t lol |
Reptail
SPACE LIGHT EMPIRE
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:13:00 -
[2720] - Quote
this thread is now , why CCP makes our lives difficult instead of helping us
Eve it's a business c'mon, get it, we live here we die here ,
let's everyone profit with Eve |
|
LoveFromAbove
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:14:00 -
[2721] - Quote
Kuzim Blaky'all wrote:Sup dawg!
dawgs use to say a dawg was causin' abuse but stoppin a dawg, dig it, they was no use but dig it dawg, re-re wasn't brakin' da law, mi was jus recyclied, and gettin up a dawg craw but ain no need for any but a reaper its tru, jus always need to stop a bad dawg who get thru an wreck up mi gig by bustin' mi boat makin it hard for re-re jus to stay afloat,
but dig it dawg, mi always have a way to get thru, you stop wi gig, yo messin' wit recyclien crew. you stop mi from gettin mad stacks of cash, yo gig is gonan end up tossed out wit da trash let re-re live on, let a dawg get him goods by lettin' mi posse into da filthy hoods best be let mi pack gettin they a full rack kuz if you mess wit kuzim him will always be back.
word dawg be safe.
kuzim blaky'all is back and spittin da truf |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
46
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:14:00 -
[2722] - Quote
136 pages of beating a dead horse.
why is it 136 pages long? nobody has been banned, items have been seized to stop a market crash. move along. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
952
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:23:00 -
[2723] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:MeBiatch wrote:
ccp is like fox news... fair and balanced
Really, if you get down to it though, tossing out the alliance mechanic, limiting the size of corps, and erasing 9 years of accumulated wealth and SP would, actually, make the game fair and balanced.
"It would be fair and balanced if CCP would violate every guiding principle they have ever lived by in order to specifically punish a group of people I don't like!"
Get a clue. And a life. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1500
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:27:00 -
[2724] - Quote
I'm up to $126.47 in my PayPal acct from playing the real money auction house in Diablo 3.
This has much more relevance to me than whining about pretend space money in a space combat simulator. If I'm going to grind, I might as well be working toward paying my rent for it.
Still....
It's always fun to read these threads, so keep on keepin' on.
Mr Epeen There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
479
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:28:00 -
[2725] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I'm up to $126.47 in my PayPal acct from playing the real money auction house in Diablo 3. This has much more relevance to me than whining about pretend space money in a space combat simulator. If I'm going to grind, I might as well be working toward paying my rent for it. Still.... It's always fun to read these threads, so keep on keepin' on. Mr Epeen
I make that in a couple of hours at a job I actually do quite enjoy doing, so that I can then come home and have fun playing my games, so congratulations? . |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:29:00 -
[2726] - Quote
Wisdom Divine wrote:The entire "let's base a reward system on player-determined market prices" idea ought to be scrapped. It's a shadow insurance system that messes up all of EVE. First make the Faction Warfare LP store give out items that are unique and can't be bought from any LP store. That way the supply (and eventual market price) would be entirely based on how many people are doing FW.
Then make a fixed table of LP payouts per blown up ship type.
Rather than the current LP payout system which is vulnerable to this feedback loop where you can manipulate market prices to inflate LP rewards to get more isk to inflate market prices to boost LP rewards more. A fixed LP per ship payout would have a fixed LP income.
You'd still have free market influence from people selling LP store items unique to their factions LP store.
So for example let's say that the Amarr militia was doing poorly one week, not blowing up ships or taking sites. Then the supply of items from their LP store would slow down and prices would rise. This would encourage people to join the Amarr FW team, and reward Amarr victories more.
Then lets say the next week the Amarr were doing rather well and pumping LP. There would be more Amarr LP store items getting to the open market, which would lower the price.
Also if anyone decided to farm some alts by blowing up their ships they'd flood the market so much that prices would drop until they reached an equilibrium with whatever it would cost to buy ships to explode for LP. So let's say someone got 1000 LP for killing a drake and Drakes cost 60 mil. Then people would flood the market with LP items until 1000 LP worth of items cost less than 60 mil. And anyone who went out and got a real drake kill would make 60 million isk worth of LP. So the market prices of LP items would probably stabilize well under the breaking even point for blowing up ships on your alt for LP. I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544 |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
47
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:29:00 -
[2727] - Quote
Salient Soldier wrote:I like how Goons can admit to breaking EvE, and they dont even get a slap on the wrist.
CCP, grow some balls and empty all Goon wallets to 0.
Then perma ban all accounts of those who admitted to being involved.
Then Fix EvE, k thx bai.
and how has your personal eve experience even been touched by this event? i sure as **** didn't feel any effects from it, i doubt you did either. hence, the game clearly wasn't broken. |
Jonah Gravenstein
507
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:32:00 -
[2728] - Quote
ITT Some clever bastards in GSF did some research and figured out how to manipulate the system in their favour, said goons preen, their detractors whine about them preening.
Meanwhile real world governments and commercial entities have staff do the same and eventually fail miserably, screwing everybody else in the process.
Go goons, if I were you I'd pimp these guys as consultants for real life shenanigans, as a whole you guys seem to be more successful in successfully gaming market systems than most financial institutes in the last few years. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Wu-Tian
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:46:00 -
[2729] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
The lost art of keeping a secret. |
Annasys
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:00:00 -
[2730] - Quote
Burn New Eden. *This space available*
100m per week, 300m per month. Minimum 1 week. Terms and conditions apply. See official rules and regulations for details. This product and/or service is not endorsed by CCP Games, its employees or its affiliates. |
|
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
697
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:04:00 -
[2731] - Quote
Annasys wrote:Burn New Eden.
Winter is comingGäó . |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1421
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:08:00 -
[2732] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:ITT Some clever bastards in GSF did some research and figured out how to manipulate the system in their favour, said goons preen, their detractors whine about them preening.
Meanwhile real world governments and commercial entities have staff do the same and eventually fail miserably, screwing everybody else in the process.
I approve of hiring Goons as Goldman Sachs consultants! If anything, fireworks are amusing.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Annasys
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:13:00 -
[2733] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:Annasys wrote:Burn New Eden. Winter is comingGäó
I like winter.
P.S. Burn New Eden. (So I can go play a better game.) *This space available*
100m per week, 300m per month. Minimum 1 week. Terms and conditions apply. See official rules and regulations for details. This product and/or service is not endorsed by CCP Games, its employees or its affiliates. |
Aooz
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:15:00 -
[2734] - Quote
Wu-Tian wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
The lost art of keeping a secret.
Just typical attention whoring by goons. But to be fair, this was probably the shining moment of OP's dark and dreary basement dwelling life, then you just have the usual mob of goon lackeys grasping for second hand attention which is really what they're best at.
Though it was an OK story, enjoy your space money and "loyalty points" |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:20:00 -
[2735] - Quote
Aooz wrote:Wu-Tian wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
The lost art of keeping a secret. Just typical attention whoring by goons. But to be fair, this was probably the shining moment of OP's dark and dreary basement dwelling life, then you just have the usual mob of goon lackeys grasping for second hand attention which is really what they're best at. Though it was an OK story, enjoy your space money and "loyalty points"
beautiful shade of green to this post. |
Jonah Gravenstein
508
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:23:00 -
[2736] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I approve of hiring Goons as Goldman Sachs consultants! If anything, fireworks are amusing.
They couldn't do any worse War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
154
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:33:00 -
[2737] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.
Is the door located in an environment that is billed as being a sandbox? As was said earlier, the key really is in that word you seem to be hung up on. All boxes have boundaries, they must in order for them to function, without boundaries there would be utter chaos and would bring about the demise of any system fairly rapidly. Until now those boundaries have, for the most part, seemed non-existent because no-one had really found them. yeah its not a box without edges
Andrea Roche wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:
Is the door located in an environment that is billed as being a sandbox?
is the sandbox yours or theirs?
they thought it was theirs, now theyre being shown its not http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:41:00 -
[2738] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:Xython wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol They will OFFICIALLY have lost control If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right." Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE. Last I checked, I thought the community pretty much thought goons had CCP in their back pockets? What happened? Something not go your way, so suddenly everyones out to get you ? kinda like the csm argument lol are they useless or too poweful?
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:sort of like finding out your sandbox has razor blades hidden in the sand This is called Karma. Karma is a **tch.
by everyone other than Goons yeah. To them its a travesty lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:47:00 -
[2739] - Quote
Tolokar wrote:My question is why is Sreegs or CCP putting up with this? Why isn't this thread locked? Let the investigation occur and be done with it. If you know you didn't exploit or do something illegal you have nothing to worry about. If you did ... Well the. F*ck you and you got what you deserve for being scumbags.
Cause the last time they DID that the forums had to be shut off cause of the rage
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Betrinna Cantis
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:48:00 -
[2740] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin. They usually lock down everything until they can figure out exactly what is what and complete the investigation. But you know all about eve, the ins, the outs. So you knew they would do this. Seems a fair approch to me. If, say in RL, you get caught doing a Ponzi scheem or something along those lines, Your assets are frozen until things are sorted out. Not that hard to figure that CCP wouldn't do the same type of things is it? I may be wrong but it makes sense to me. Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:53:00 -
[2741] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote: The last time I remember this was the last time I said a few posts back. When the volume of new threads required the forums to be taken down after the open letter and T20
I was thinking Mittens brush with permaban and arrest, myself.
I dont remember CCP actually having to shut off the forums to stem the rage that time tho lol
(sorry as you can likely guess, dinner has kept me a few pages back so Im catching up) http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 20:54:00 -
[2742] - Quote
Salient Soldier wrote:I like how Goons can admit to breaking EvE, and they dont even get a slap on the wrist.
CCP, grow some balls and empty all Goon wallets to 0.
Then perma ban all accounts of those who admitted to being involved.
Then Fix EvE, k thx bai.
i would say put their wallets to negative! That would be a nice punishment instead of ban! |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:03:00 -
[2743] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote: The last time I remember this was the last time I said a few posts back. When the volume of new threads required the forums to be taken down after the open letter and T20
I was thinking Mittens brush with permaban and arrest, myself.
ya cause as he said; cyberbullying in the US = child molesting.
It would have been hardly a "brush" if it were as serious as he pretended
But then again, the "if you cant do the time, dont do the crime" applies
corestwo wrote: You sort of see why many people see this as a massive change in precedent, right?
Because its Goons getting punished? Damn, youre right
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Posting in a thread...
Also....................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHA.
Currently finding it comical that goons pride themselves on ruining other peoples game. But, give the most delicious of tears when someone (in this case CCP) ruins theirs!
Thats whats so damn funny, its not even ruined, or really dented. It was just money. no real punishment, and look at the 130+ pages of QQ http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:12:00 -
[2744] - Quote
Ariel Marquette wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Posting in a thread...
Also....................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHA.
Currently finding it comical that goons pride themselves on ruining other peoples game. But, give the most delicious of tears when someone (in this case CCP) ruins theirs! Having your game ruined by a player is one thing. Having it ruined by the company is another. How can you not see this? Having your game ruined by players for no reason other than lulz is one thing. Having your game ruined by the company for pissing in their sandbox and then continuing to do it after they attempt to correct the issue is completely different.
"How can you not see this?" http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:21:00 -
[2745] - Quote
Minerva Seraph wrote:
A lot of us expected the rule of the game to be "If it's the logical ends of the code, so be it" - with the exception of CCP's rulings, applied forward. Metagaming cartels, products of market orders and refining, and spreadsheet abuse don't break the rules. Reacting limitless amounts of moon materials did break the rules.
Let it be.
Also; wardec changes recently
EVE isnt meant to be fair. As it was said. Why should CCP be? HTFU http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Tolokar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:23:00 -
[2746] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Minerva Seraph wrote:
A lot of us expected the rule of the game to be "If it's the logical ends of the code, so be it" - with the exception of CCP's rulings, applied forward. Metagaming cartels, products of market orders and refining, and spreadsheet abuse don't break the rules. Reacting limitless amounts of moon materials did break the rules.
Let it be.
Also; wardec changes recently EVE isnt meant to be fair. As it was said. Why should CCP be? HTFU
What's htfu |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
472
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:24:00 -
[2747] - Quote
Ariel Marquette wrote:Xython wrote:This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it. Goons are "everyone who values the sandbox"? You really do think too much of yourselves. No one other than Goons and Goon cronies (looking at you, TEST) are going to be upset about anything bad happening to Goons.
I like how you lump anyone who doesn't explicitly hate goons so much they would go out of their way to hurt them in real life must be a goon or a goon crony. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:24:00 -
[2748] - Quote
Harden the ---- up. Its a saying invented BY CCP and in song lol
Ariel Marquette wrote:Xython wrote:This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it. Goons are "everyone who values the sandbox"? You really do think too much of yourselves. No one other than Goons and Goon cronies (looking at you, TEST) are going to be upset about anything bad happening to Goons.
And even certain TEST here have been laughing at them http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
130
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:25:00 -
[2749] - Quote
Tolokar wrote:
What's htfu
A polite version of STFU
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Rasmido
Liga Freier Terraner Ev0ke
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:27:00 -
[2750] - Quote
Tolokar wrote: What's htfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:28:00 -
[2751] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
****. I wish I had a job were I could **** up twice, keep my job, and be toasted for it.
Become a tax auditor, or a senior member of management.
Or a state worker, or DMV
Nakkano wrote:Well done Goons. This game needs you for exactly this reason.. pushing the boundary of the sandbox environment. Breaking all the things that were never considered. So in a way this is a good deed, although there will be a penalty most likely, you must carry on and continue doing what you do.
And to be fair, punishing the goons wallet will hurt them yes, but they are not the only ones who have benefited here. Everyone with buy orders of minmatar FW items soaking up these item dumps has benefited greatly as well with the price rebound after this event. So really the ones hurt are those that were competing to sell items while Goons crashed the markets, while buyers made bank. A mixed bag of casualties and winners.
How long does it take Goons to make 5 trillion?
Oh Im fully expecting to be told "but its the principle of the thing" http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:34:00 -
[2752] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: I like how you lump anyone who doesn't explicitly hate goons so much they would go out of their way to hurt them in real life must be a goon or a goon crony.
It must be said that there are members of TEST who seem to have their lips permanently attached to The Mittani's posterior.
And, much like the male anglerfish that they're trying to emulate, they're a parasite on something about ten times their size, and a hell of a lot uglier.
I even had one go so far as to put me on 'ignore' because I *dared* say "that Mittens got off light and if she (I) was the GM on that case she(I)'d have thrown the book at him".
I have zero tolerance for that ****, and I don't care if he's secretly Helmar.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:35:00 -
[2753] - Quote
CCP have been surprisingly tight lipped about the whole situation, sending out CCP SREEGS "the cooler" to keep things calm while minimizing the amount of community anger and wildfire speculation going on.
Has CCP contacted any media outlets about this story? It would make great reading and might attract more players.
I certainly hope some of you re paste the choicest quotes to Kugutsumen before they are removed / redacted by the fair minded moderators of this just city. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:37:00 -
[2754] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:How long does it take Goons to make 5 trillion?
~5 months, i think. let me go find my source. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:38:00 -
[2755] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Fix Lag wrote:
I'd like you to expand on this.
It's sort of like when you use it against goons it's an exploit, but if they use it against you, it's a feature.
You know; how it used to be for BoB AGAINST Goons
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:39:00 -
[2756] - Quote
What's funny is Goons forgot this line in the lyrics:
"You best watch out ***** if you're an exploiting scammer Guard will gank you in the face with his big ban hammer"
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:41:00 -
[2757] - Quote
Xutech wrote:CCP have been surprisingly tight lipped about the whole situation, sending out CCP SREEGS "the cooler" to keep things calm while minimizing the amount of community anger and wildfire speculation going on.
Has CCP contacted any media outlets about this story? It would make great reading and might attract more players.
I certainly hope some of you re paste the choicest quotes to Kugutsumen before they are removed / redacted by the fair minded moderators of this just city.
I dunno what CCP will do, but I forwarded this thread to some contacts in the game media. Fun Fun Fun
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xutech
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:43:00 -
[2758] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:What's funny is Goons forgot this line in the lyrics: "You best watch out ***** if you're an exploiting scammer Guard will gank you in the face with his big ban hammer"
The definition of exploiting is also redefined daily.
|
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
821
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:43:00 -
[2759] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Mechaet wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It is not always apparent what is a flaw in the code and what is a flaw in the design. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, as in the ferogel dupe. A variety of now-defunct GARPA projects relied on flaws in the code, yes, we knew it, you fixed it, it's done. This, however, does not look like a flaw in the code. This does not look like code being pushed into an edge case where it goes for a variable that has not been initialized and instead picks up old junk that just so happens to not be junk. We've been there, this doesn't smell like that. The code didn't default into a case where it unexpectedly decides to calculate an EVE-wide 90 day moving average. That was a design error, not an implementation error. And design errors are fair game. Flaw in code was a bad way of saying things v0v You're correct that the code was doing what it was written to do. However when the new mechanic was introduced a system was being leveraged to determine the value of a currency that was not built for that purpose and that's what caused this. Only because a developer decided to include a value that the players can move, which in retrospect was a terribly bad idea. The math worked exactly as designed. Nobody's denying that here whatsoever. I think if you would just admit there are limits to to your sandbox and that if you screw something up you will intervene if you see something you don't like regardless of whether it's simply clever use of mechanics or an exploit of bad code, there wouldn't be such a disconnect between you and those you are arguing with in this thread.
Instead of saying "EvE is a wide-open sandbox" every time any one of you devs is in front of a camera... just add "pretty much" in front of "wide-open" and if asked explain it.
It would solve your communication problem here I think.
|
Tolokar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:44:00 -
[2760] - Quote
I see a lot of people un subbing for goon getting special treatment using an exploit where the common joe will get banned and have an investigation put on them. Like seriously ban the top. 5 collect the assets and back to normal |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:45:00 -
[2761] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:Perpetuum actually.
ah
Forgot about that one. Never looked into it
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
136
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:48:00 -
[2762] - Quote
I just grabbed this from a gamesite forum taking about Dust. These were the first two posts:
"Matthew94" wrote:"albino boo" wrote: Sounds good, but I think the big problem is going to be the fact the EVEs player base tend to be total jerks. Yup, the only things you hear from the game are "look how much this guy ****** over these people!"
These are hardly unique responses, that majority come from the shooter crowd that CCP is trying to recruit into EvE.
So, please, tell me again how this is good PR?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
483
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:50:00 -
[2763] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:corestwo wrote: You sort of see why many people see this as a massive change in precedent, right? Because its Goons getting punished? Damn, youre right Shoot, you're right, I guess all the people posting in this thread about how they don't like CCP trodding in the sandbox are goon alts. I guess you think Riverini, goon hater extraordinaire is probably a goon alt too. He'll be so heartbroken. :( . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
483
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:54:00 -
[2764] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Because its Goons getting punished? Damn, youre right Shoot, you're right, I guess all the people posting in this thread about how they don't like CCP trodding in the sandbox are goon alts. I guess you think Riverini, goon hater extraordinaire is probably a goon alt too. He'll be so heartbroken. :(
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:corestwo wrote:This would own. In a world where frigates are top dog, goons rule the universe. Thought you already did? Well...yes.
Xutech wrote:CCP have been surprisingly tight lipped about the whole situation, sending out CCP SREEGS "the cooler" to keep things calm while minimizing the amount of community anger and wildfire speculation going on.
Has CCP contacted any media outlets about this story? It would make great reading and might attract more players.
I certainly hope some of you re paste the choicest quotes to Kugutsumen before they are removed / redacted by the fair minded moderators of this just city.
"Goons play in sandbox game, get punished" doesn't make for something that will attract more players, really.
You really should be familiar with the difference between personal income and alliance income, but then again MV is the worst corp in TEST, so maybe not. . |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:55:00 -
[2765] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:136 pages of beating a dead horse.
why is it 136 pages long? nobody has been banned, items have been seized to stop a market crash. move along.
Tell that to Goons lol
Wait I thought it was 1.5 tril every other day?
Or was it a titan every other day http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
130
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:56:00 -
[2766] - Quote
Xutech wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:What's funny is Goons forgot this line in the lyrics: "You best watch out ***** if you're an exploiting scammer Guard will gank you in the face with his big ban hammer" The definition of exploiting is also redefined daily.
well you forgot CCPs golden rule. "If in doubt always ask prior acting, that way you are always covered!" |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:57:00 -
[2767] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Or was it a titan every other day
Hey, i can roll a titan every other day, but I charge a lot, in advance, and don't give refunds.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:58:00 -
[2768] - Quote
Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:MeBiatch wrote:
ccp is like fox news... fair and balanced
Really, if you get down to it though, tossing out the alliance mechanic, limiting the size of corps, and erasing 9 years of accumulated wealth and SP would, actually, make the game fair and balanced. "It would be fair and balanced if CCP would violate every guiding principle they have ever lived by in order to specifically screw over a group of people I don't like!" Get a clue. And a life.
Thought Goons would rule? Now youre being screwed over?
Make up your mind http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:58:00 -
[2769] - Quote
corestwo wrote:You really should be familiar with the difference between personal income and alliance income, but then again MV is the worst corp in TEST, so maybe not.
"our" does not imply personal. "my" would imply personal. in a forum about goons sponsoring hulkageddon. *shrug* |
Powell Morgan
PNG Associates
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:58:00 -
[2770] - Quote
I don't know if anyone else has said this, partly because the rate of growth of this thread exceeds my reading alacrity and because sifting through the tear stained posts drew on for ever, but:
It seems to me that if Aryth hadn't started it by bragging and possibly gloating about this whole horrendous affair, the entire shitstorm that is this thread could possibly have been avoided all together.
That; and the fact that CCP may or may not have seized the assets of the, for lack of a better word, perpetrators.
I may also just be tired and a bit stupid? |
|
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 21:59:00 -
[2771] - Quote
The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world".
The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE. So personally i think CCP is well within their right to snatch all that isk from everyone involved. Afterall, they knew the scale of the manipulation. Why not just come out and say "btw, we're about to make an absolute KILLING from what we've discovered!!". Rather than the afterwards "omg look what we did, please let us keep our stuff". The fact they waited to after indicates that they knew what they were doing was naughty.
They're already stupidly rich anyways, so meh!
And then perhaps in future more players will report things like this, and actually ask CCP if its ok to do something a bit dodgy, before they go ahead and make trillions just cause they found an awesome shortcut. |
Reptail
SPACE LIGHT EMPIRE
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:00:00 -
[2772] - Quote
This **** need to stop |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:01:00 -
[2773] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Thought Goons would rule? Now youre being screwed over?
Make up your mind
I don't think that it ever occurs to him that I'd probably be far more screwed over than half his alliance. I mean, hell, they're screaming about losing just 5 trillion isk. I'd be out nearly 12 and 150m SP.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:01:00 -
[2774] - Quote
Annasys wrote:Burn New Eden.
Yes do. In multiples of 5 trillion isks. Make CCP pay.
No More Heroes wrote:Annasys wrote:Burn New Eden. Winter is comingGäó
Why wait? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:02:00 -
[2775] - Quote
Reptail wrote:This **** need to stop This shitposting needs to stop. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:02:00 -
[2776] - Quote
Powell Morgan wrote:I don't know if anyone else has said this, partly because the rate of growth of this thread exceeds my reading alacrity and because sifting through the tear stained posts drew on for ever, but:
It seems to me that if Aryth hadn't started it by bragging and possibly gloating about this whole horrendous affair, the entire shitstorm that is this thread could possibly have been avoided all together.
That; and the fact that CCP may or may not have seized the assets of the, for lack of a better word, perpetrators.
I may also just be tired and a bit stupid?
No, that sounds about right. It just goes to show: don't exploit and then post in the forums about how you're smarter than the devs and try to make them look like bitches.
It's not Rocket Science V, people. At best it's Mining I.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7458
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:05:00 -
[2777] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Powell Morgan wrote:I don't know if anyone else has said this, partly because the rate of growth of this thread exceeds my reading alacrity and because sifting through the tear stained posts drew on for ever, but:
It seems to me that if Aryth hadn't started it by bragging and possibly gloating about this whole horrendous affair, the entire shitstorm that is this thread could possibly have been avoided all together.
That; and the fact that CCP may or may not have seized the assets of the, for lack of a better word, perpetrators.
I may also just be tired and a bit stupid? No, that sounds about right. It just goes to show: don't exploit and then post in the forums about how you're smarter than the devs and try to make them look like bitches. It's not Rocket Science V, people. At best it's Mining I. Have they ruled on it then?
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Gynax Gallenor
Gallente Libertarian Front of Gallente
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:05:00 -
[2778] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks.
And after all that, France couldn't be arsed showing up to provide you with much of a distraction. :) |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:09:00 -
[2779] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Have they ruled on it then?
Yeah, Sreeg was calling it an exploit, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say their isk is gone forever. Whether there will be other penalties invoked due to the quite amazing number of violations, when you get down to it, they racked up as events progressed is, however, not yet known.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
80
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:09:00 -
[2780] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world". The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE. Yeah, starting two days ago. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
|
Wibla
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:11:00 -
[2781] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Mag's wrote:Have they ruled on it then? Yeah, Sreeg was calling it an exploit, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say their isk is gone forever. Whether there will be other penalties invoked due to the quite amazing number of violations, when you get down to it, they racked up as events progressed is, however, not yet known.
Get out. |
Minerva Seraph
Omicron Lyrae Shipyards
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:12:00 -
[2782] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Minerva Seraph wrote:
A lot of us expected the rule of the game to be "If it's the logical ends of the code, so be it" - with the exception of CCP's rulings, applied forward. Metagaming cartels, products of market orders and refining, and spreadsheet abuse don't break the rules. Reacting limitless amounts of moon materials did break the rules.
Let it be.
Also; wardec changes recently EVE isnt meant to be fair. As it was said. Why should CCP be? HTFU
CCP didn't retroactively punish the corporations or players involved with the wardec mechanic issues, did they? They simply patched it out in the upcoming 1.1 release.
That's a coder's way of saying "good job. Now try it again." |
Isphirel
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:14:00 -
[2783] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world".
The answer is a definate no.
I'm going to use that line when I petition CCP for reimbursement of my freighter that was autopiloting through nullsec! After all, "in the real world", you wouldn't be allowed to just fly up to it and shoot missiles at it, right? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:14:00 -
[2784] - Quote
Nah, you should have seen it: the clouds parted, and CCP Sreegs came down streaming trails of glory and a heavenly choir sang out as he ***** slapped goons with the his dev hand.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:15:00 -
[2785] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Salient Soldier wrote:I like how Goons can admit to breaking EvE, and they dont even get a slap on the wrist.
CCP, grow some balls and empty all Goon wallets to 0.
Then perma ban all accounts of those who admitted to being involved.
Then Fix EvE, k thx bai. i would say put their wallets to negative! That would be a nice punishment instead of ban!
Only if you give their space to someone else lol They still have all their tech moons. Whats infinite money to that
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Tolokar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:16:00 -
[2786] - Quote
Isphirel wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world".
The answer is a definate no. I'm going to use that line when I petition CCP for reimbursement of my freighter that was autopiloting through nullsec! After all, "in the real world", you wouldn't be allowed to just fly up to it and shoot missiles at it, right?
No your just a dumbshit for APig it in null you dumb **** inbred |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:17:00 -
[2787] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Only if you give their space to someone else lol They still have all their tech moons. Whats infinite money to that
Does them no good. You can't sell anything or send it to an alt with -neg isk. It'd take hours to get alts with cash out there, and by then...
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7458
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:19:00 -
[2788] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Mag's wrote:Have they ruled on it then? Yeah, Sreeg was calling it an exploit, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say their isk is gone forever. Whether there will be other penalties invoked due to the quite amazing number of violations, when you get down to it, they racked up as events progressed is, however, not yet known. I shall quote him.
CCP Sreegs wrote:I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
CCP Sreegs wrote:You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same.
Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest.
Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".
CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
Hmmm
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:19:00 -
[2789] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world". The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE. Yeah, starting two days ago.
actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence"
Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned" |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:23:00 -
[2790] - Quote
Xutech wrote:
Has CCP contacted any media outlets about this story? It would make great reading and might attract more players.
Why hasnt Mittens? He's usually the first one to jump on that idea http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
80
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:23:00 -
[2791] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence" We're going in circles here. Why is X not allowed? Because it's an exploit. Why is it an exploit? Because it isn't allowed. Up until two days ago, market manipulation was a perfectly legitimate tactics in the game, albeit not in real life. So that comparison falls flat on its face. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:24:00 -
[2792] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote: Why hasnt Mittens? He's usually the first one to jump on that idea
One of them was actually trying to contact his Mitness, but as of yet has not heard from him. It may be that Der Mittani is out of town for the weekend.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:24:00 -
[2793] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world". The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE. Yeah, starting two days ago. actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence" Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned"
Thought their golden rule was "we make the rules"
So; when is Mittani's blog on the subject? When can we expect the "leak"s to start? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
140
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:25:00 -
[2794] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Thought their golden rule was "we make the rules"
I always thought it was 'Pay up, Chump!'
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:28:00 -
[2795] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:corestwo wrote: You sort of see why many people see this as a massive change in precedent, right? Because its Goons getting punished? Damn, youre right Shoot, you're right, I guess all the people posting in this thread about how they don't like CCP trodding in the sandbox are goon alts. I guess you think Riverini, goon hater extraordinaire is probably a goon alt too. He'll be so heartbroken. :(
Thought he was a mittens alt?
Funny, I think thats the first time Goons have given him credence. Desperate much? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:35:00 -
[2796] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence" We're going in circles here. Why is X not allowed? Because it's an exploit. Why is it an exploit? Because it isn't allowed. Up until two days ago, market manipulation was a perfectly legitimate tactics in the game, albeit not in real life. So that comparison falls flat on its face.
"You" (dont exactly mean you personally) did not ask if it was ok for to exploit the game mechanic this way. And so you did not get cover. Something in the back of your head would have said "beware". Ignore the message and get punished. Back again to golden rule: Always ask before you act! I came close to be ban myself but the difference is i acted on the "beware" message and so i did not get banned. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:40:00 -
[2797] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Only if you give their space to someone else lol They still have all their tech moons. Whats infinite money to that
Does them no good. You can't sell anything or send it to an alt with -neg isk. It'd take hours to get alts with cash out there, and by then...
nah they just lot that alt high sec transit corp they use when wardecced. Im betting it has enough to cover rhe spread.
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
484
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:40:00 -
[2798] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Funny, I think thats the first time Goons have given him credence. Desperate much?
It's not as though anything I do will change CCP's judgement in the end, one way or another. Hard to be desperate when you can't change the outcome. . |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
484
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:43:00 -
[2799] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence" We're going in circles here. Why is X not allowed? Because it's an exploit. Why is it an exploit? Because it isn't allowed. Up until two days ago, market manipulation was a perfectly legitimate tactics in the game, albeit not in real life. So that comparison falls flat on its face.
Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?
Tal
P.S You stole my avatar or you have exceedingly good taste |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
145
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:44:00 -
[2800] - Quote
corestwo wrote: It's not as though anything I do will change CCP's judgement in the end, one way or another. Hard to be desperate when you can't change the outcome.
Actually that's usually when people are most desperate.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
485
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:47:00 -
[2801] - Quote
Perhaps. I simply can't help be amused by a known goon-hater agreeing with us though. . |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:50:00 -
[2802] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote: Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?
What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:51:00 -
[2803] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world". The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE. Yeah, starting two days ago. actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence" Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned" Ask Hydra and 0utbreak about how that works. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:53:00 -
[2804] - Quote
Mag's wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Hmmm
Ya thats why goons are pissy. They lost 5 trillion and assets but they werent punished
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:55:00 -
[2805] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world". The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE. Yeah, starting two days ago. actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence" Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned" Ask Hydra and 0utbreak about how that works.
are you refering match fixing? cos they never asked about match fixing and they did get punished for it, or have we forgoten? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
486
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:56:00 -
[2806] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote: Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?
What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions.
Don't forget neither west & gray nor Kwark had their isk taken away after spending months gaming the contract system's flawed default sorting method. . |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:56:00 -
[2807] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Mechaet wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world". The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE. Yeah, starting two days ago. actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence" Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned" Ask Hydra and 0utbreak about how that works. are you refering match fixing? cos they never asked about match fixing and they did get punished for it, or have we forgoten? They never got punished for match fixing. They asked if they could train together on SiSi for the upcoming alliance tournament, were given the OK, and when they did what they said they got kicked out of the alliance tournament. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:56:00 -
[2808] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka "EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence" We're going in circles here. Why is X not allowed? Because it's an exploit. Why is it an exploit? Because it isn't allowed. Up until two days ago, market manipulation was a perfectly legitimate tactics in the game, albeit not in real life. So that comparison falls flat on its face.
so wait, everything called market manipulation is an exploit now? Yes youre right, they HAVE destroyed your game
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
484
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 22:58:00 -
[2809] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote: Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?
What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions.
Yeah but at the same time the scale of this was huge, and CCP probably need/want to send a message that this sort of thing is bad . Might have been different if he hadn't of posted about it on the forums and just had a quiet word.... who knows.
Anyhow I've been out all day anything happened or still waiting for CCP to make a call ?
Tal
|
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:02:00 -
[2810] - Quote
Mechaet wrote: They never got punished for match fixing. They asked if they could train together on SiSi for the upcoming alliance tournament, were given the OK, and when they did what they said they got kicked out of the alliance tournament.
i remember it was something else. It wasnt just cos trained togther. I cant remember exactly the whole explanation given but i do "think" it had to do with match fixing and having entring two teams instead of one. It wasnt just one thing as you make it look like.
|
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
486
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:03:00 -
[2811] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote: Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?
What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions. Yeah but at the same time the scale of this was huge, and CCP probably need/want to send a message that this sort of thing is bad . Might have been different if he hadn't of posted about it on the forums and just had a quiet word.... who knows. Anyhow I've been out all day anything happened or still waiting for CCP to make a call ? Tal
CCP won't make a call until monday at the soonest. . |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
310
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:04:00 -
[2812] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:RAP ACTION HERO wrote:one day goons are going to cure cancer And we'll be blamed for putting the pharmaceutical companies out of business.
Seems what's happening right here brb |
Isphirel
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:10:00 -
[2813] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned" Yo that has never been any sort of "rule", golden or not. I don't have to ask CCP for permission before I buy a pile of minerals and sell them for more money the next day, I don't have to ask CCP before I buy all the Maelstroms in VFK and relist them at markup right before a fleet operation, and the OP doesn't have to ask for permission before he uses documented game mechanics to play the market either.
The fact that CCP neither thought their FW changes through nor listened to the community when they were on the test server, and are now having some sudden regrets about the whole thing, doesn't make it suddenly sleazy to not play games of "mother, may I" every time you log into the game. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:10:00 -
[2814] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:MeBiatch wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks. go spain! but we all know de Germans will win in the end... i want spain to win but i must admit the germans are very likelly to win at the end . 5 stars?
Germans look vulnerable at the back and it'll be hard for them to beat Spain with only 30% possession!
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:14:00 -
[2815] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:
"You" (dont exactly mean you personally) did not ask if it was ok for to exploit the game mechanic this way. And so you did not get cover. Something in the back of your head would have said "beware". Ignore the message and get punished. Back again to golden rule: Always ask before you act! I came close to be ban myself but the difference is i acted on the "beware" message and so i did not get banned.
kinda like when you go into .4 or try to do something hostile in high sec. That little warning flag lol
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:15:00 -
[2816] - Quote
Isphirel wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned" Yo that has never been any sort of "rule", golden or not. I don't have to ask CCP for permission before I buy a pile of minerals and sell them for more money the next day, I don't have to ask CCP before I buy all the Maelstroms in VFK and relist them at markup right before a fleet operation, and the OP doesn't have to ask for permission before he uses documented game mechanics to play the market either. The fact that CCP neither thought their FW changes through nor listened to the community when they were on the test server, and are now having some sudden regrets about the whole thing, doesn't make it suddenly sleazy to not play games of "mother, may I" every time you log into the game.
you know damn perfectly well that this is nothing like buying a maelstrom and reseling it. This is nothing compared to that. We are talking of 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation based on a vulnerability (exploit of mechanic). If you are gonna exploit a mechanic then you ask if its within the rules so that you are covered. Dont try to down play 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation of a game mechanic. Once again if you did not read the EULA go and do so again. |
Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:17:00 -
[2817] - Quote
Isphirel wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned" Yo that has never been any sort of "rule", golden or not. I don't have to ask CCP for permission before I buy a pile of minerals and sell them for more money the next day, I don't have to ask CCP before I buy all the Maelstroms in VFK and relist them at markup right before a fleet operation, and the OP doesn't have to ask for permission before he uses documented game mechanics to play the market either. The fact that CCP neither thought their FW changes through nor listened to the community when they were on the test server, and are now having some sudden regrets about the whole thing, doesn't make it suddenly sleazy to not play games of "mother, may I" every time you log into the game. It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:20:00 -
[2818] - Quote
Shai 'Hulud wrote:Isphirel wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka "If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned" Yo that has never been any sort of "rule", golden or not. I don't have to ask CCP for permission before I buy a pile of minerals and sell them for more money the next day, I don't have to ask CCP before I buy all the Maelstroms in VFK and relist them at markup right before a fleet operation, and the OP doesn't have to ask for permission before he uses documented game mechanics to play the market either. The fact that CCP neither thought their FW changes through nor listened to the community when they were on the test server, and are now having some sudden regrets about the whole thing, doesn't make it suddenly sleazy to not play games of "mother, may I" every time you log into the game. It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.
Its not. EULA says that if exploting game mechanic = ban That includes also "design flaw" since at the end of all its all written in code and exploting a game mechanic is also exploiting a game flaw. All this means : goons exploited a game mechanic by exploiting a design flaw |
Isphirel
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:20:00 -
[2819] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:you know damn perfectly well that this is nothing like buying a maelstrom and reseling it. This is nothing compared to that. We are talking of 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation based on a vulnerability (exploit of mechanic). If you are gonna exploit a mechanic then you ask if its within the rules so that you are covered. Dont try to down play 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation of a game mechanic. Once again if you did not read the EULA go and do so again.
Sounds like you're seeing a number bigger than you're used too and going "wow, that must have been an exploit". There's absolutely no reason to assume that just because it's profitable it's againt the EULA. If you'd like to explain this supposed "vulnerability", be my guest, but you'll probably want to read the OP another few times to understand what was going on. |
Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:21:00 -
[2820] - Quote
Shai 'Hulud wrote:It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit. Although I'm not sure this will help with their recently established trend of punishing players for breaking rules that had not been in place at the time of the "crime" |
|
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:24:00 -
[2821] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Its not. EULA says that if exploting game mechanic = ban That includes also "design flaw" since at the end of all its all written in code and exploting a game mechanic is also exploiting a game flaw. Which in all it means is : goons exploted a game mechanic by exploting a design flaw That defrauding the in-game insurance was profitable wasn't an intended mechanic.
Yet I don't remember hearing about CCP taking any action (aside obviously from patching it out). Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:25:00 -
[2822] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Shai 'Hulud wrote:It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit. Its not. EULA says that if exploting game mechanic = ban That includes also "design flaw" since at the end of all its all written in code and exploting a game mechanic is also exploiting a game flaw. Which in all it means is : goons exploited a game mechanic by exploting a design flaw This was only different from the pax for cheap nocx trick in the order of complexity. Gains from the pax trick were not rolled back, the game mechanic was simply adjusted. |
Machete Visor
Shafts Pier Investment Trust Bond
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:27:00 -
[2823] - Quote
Think there is precedent for taking away ill gotten gains (ask aharm). No idea why they didn't fix PI ...
Anyway, simple punishment - take away everything but the faction bpc. To monetize they will collapse the price. Offsets the gains And cheap shiny Minnie ships for all... |
Isphirel
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:29:00 -
[2824] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote: Its not. EULA says that if exploting game mechanic = ban That includes also "design flaw" since at the end of all its all written in code and exploting a game mechanic is also exploiting a game flaw. Which in all it means is : goons exploited a game mechanic by exploting a design flaw
I was gonna give you the benefit of the doubt on your crappy tautology there but my curiosity got the better of me and it turns out that the EULA doesn't contain either of the words "exploit" or "mechanic", so you're gonna have to step down from your high horse and explain what you mean by "exploiting a game mechanic" other than "making money faster than hisec miners do", and why you think it is a ~bad thing~. |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:31:00 -
[2825] - Quote
Machete Visor wrote:Think there is precedent for taking away ill gotten gains (ask aharm). No idea why they didn't fix PI .... Infinite WH tracking is entirely different. I've explained repeatedly how there's a difference between faulty design (using player-influenced market values to set payouts) and faulty code (underflowing a variable so you get huge numbers). Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Ravan Hekki
Imperial Guardians The Aurora Shadow
21
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:33:00 -
[2826] - Quote
well done, that is actualy clever, sandboxy and awsome. Also very, very , very funny. |
Isphirel
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:37:00 -
[2827] - Quote
If you can't tell the qualitative difference between "exploiting" it when some underpaid overworked coder didn't implement all the necessary sanity checks to make the game not blow up, and "exploiting" it when the game functions literally exactly as designed, expected, described in the patch notes and discussed on the forums before the patch hit, you probably should stay away from the market in your own interest. |
Salient Soldier
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:39:00 -
[2828] - Quote
SERVER RESET GO! |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
532
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:42:00 -
[2829] - Quote
I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed? Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:42:00 -
[2830] - Quote
Imbeciles who cannot read / understand EULA who are blinded by their hatred of their betters want to ban the content creators ITT. Typical Saturday on Eve-o. |
|
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:43:00 -
[2831] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote: Goon tears best tears.
The people affected by this have acted pretty calm so far. I don't see where all these tears are. If you want tears, go find a goon "I'm quitting eve forever!!!" thread to mock. Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:49:00 -
[2832] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote: If you want tears, go find a goon "I'm quitting eve forever!!!" thread to mock.
Only if mittens wrote it.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:52:00 -
[2833] - Quote
Shai 'Hulud wrote: It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.
Well, if you find a way to make a trillion isk an hour profit on it, you may want to check that, yeah.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:54:00 -
[2834] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Well, if you find a way to make a trillion isk an hour profit on it, you may want to check that, yeah. It wasn't a trillion per hour profit though? The whole thing happened over a couple of weeks. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 23:56:00 -
[2835] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Machete Visor wrote:Think there is precedent for taking away ill gotten gains (ask aharm). No idea why they didn't fix PI .... Infinite WH tracking is entirely different. I've explained repeatedly how there's a difference between faulty design (using player-influenced market values to set payouts) and faulty code (underflowing a variable so you get huge numbers).
The problem with your logic there is that the EULA does not differentiate between a designer and a programmer being the origin. It just says 'exploit' and this is, quite glaringly, one, regardless of how it came to be.
The other item is: How many of those other exploits were dumb enough to go into the forum and use them to make CCP look bad?
Enaris Kerle wrote:It wasn't a trillion per hour profit though? The whole thing happened over a couple of weeks. I was using dramatic impact to underline my point. Though it's still a lot shorter than goonswarm in it's entirety could make the same profit.
BTW: all the tears from certain members of goonswarm made me feel so warm and fuzzy I got a puppy today. He is very cute but I'm still working on a name.
What do you think of Vlad?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
963
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:04:00 -
[2836] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed?
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:05:00 -
[2837] - Quote
Machete Visor wrote:Think there is precedent for taking away ill gotten gains (ask aharm). No idea why they didn't fix PI ...
Anyway, simple punishment - take away everything but the faction bpc. To monetize they will collapse the price. Offsets the gains And cheap shiny Minnie ships for all...
But there was no punishment
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:05:00 -
[2838] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The problem with your logic there is that the EULA does not differentiate between a designer and a programmer being the origin. While the EULA may not, up until now CCP did. This is a change in the way they handled these alleged "exploits" so far, and that is in fact the whole reason for at least 130 of the existing pages in this thread (I forgot when reports of asset seizure were posted first). Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:08:00 -
[2839] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed?
Yes, do that. Every time. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
385
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:08:00 -
[2840] - Quote
Dear CCP Sreegs,
I feel that taking away the ISK earned by Goons is a grave mistake. You may see it as an exploit, but I see it as an application of forethought, planning and execution.
Let them keep their ISK. Seriously. |
|
Kayrl Bheskagor
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:12:00 -
[2841] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
wow . . . you guys are "awesome" - not really in a complimentary way though. Who is ACTUALLY writing code at CCP?? A bunch of these?
So, you bunch ****** up incursions. ****** up all the work that was done to reduce the lag, before the ****** up inventory. ****** up the inventory, and then ****** up faction warfare at the same time. No doubt, you're about to **** up the mining barges too. Seems to be standard operating procedures for you bunch now. Who is checking the code for CCP? Who is running YOUR spreadsheets? A 5 year old with an abacus? As much as i despise the goons, they obviously have more of a clue about the working of Eve than the people who are writing the code for it. Well done. Nice job letting the goons rip another ******* in Eve. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:12:00 -
[2842] - Quote
Isphirel wrote:If you can't tell the qualitative difference between "exploiting" it when some underpaid overworked coder didn't implement all the necessary sanity checks to make the game not blow up, and "exploiting" it when the game functions literally exactly as designed, expected, described in the patch notes and discussed on the forums before the patch hit, you probably should stay away from the market in your own interest.
I think you should take your own advice O.o
5 trillion times http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:17:00 -
[2843] - Quote
Xutech wrote: to keep things calm while minimizing the amount of community anger .
The only amount of "community anger" is the Goons and their pets blowing the forums up. Your tears have been filling swimming pools, and I can assume you will only retaliate with another temper tantrum in the form of Burn Jita 2. We all know how your last little temper tantrum a bout Mittani getting a slap on the wrist went. It accomplished nothing and made a joke of your alliance... again.
You guys should really just shut your mouths and take your punishment. I am assuming that all of the crap you keep spewing out is going to make the situation worse for you than it already is. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:18:00 -
[2844] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed? Well I feel it depends on what they are going to drop.
If it is a few billion ISK worth of loot it may be OK.
However, if it's a ludicrous amount of ISK from high priced loot because of CCP game mechanics - you may have a problem as you were just too successful. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Borachon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:24:00 -
[2845] - Quote
Tolokar wrote:Isphirel wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world".
The answer is a definate no. I'm going to use that line when I petition CCP for reimbursement of my freighter that was autopiloting through nullsec! After all, "in the real world", you wouldn't be allowed to just fly up to it and shoot missiles at it, right? No your just a dumbshit for APig it in null you dumb **** inbred
As opposed to leaving it unpiloted floating in space a few jumps from Jita? |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:25:00 -
[2846] - Quote
So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.
If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.-á If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:36:00 -
[2847] - Quote
Frederick Sanger wrote:Imbeciles who cannot read / understand EULA who are blinded by their hatred of their betters want to ban the content creators ITT. Typical Saturday on Eve-o.
the atypical part is CCP agreeing
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1174
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:38:00 -
[2848] - Quote
Haquer wrote:Kuzim Blaky'all wrote:Sup dawg!
dawgs use to say a dawg was causin' abuse but stoppin a dawg, dig it, they was no use but dig it dawg, re-re wasn't brakin' da law, mi was jus recyclied, and gettin up a dawg craw but ain no need for any but a reaper its tru, jus always need to stop a bad dawg who get thru an wreck up mi gig by bustin' mi boat makin it hard for re-re jus to stay afloat,
but dig it dawg, mi always have a way to get thru, you stop wi gig, yo messin' wit recyclien crew. you stop mi from gettin mad stacks of cash, yo gig is gonan end up tossed out wit da trash let re-re live on, let a dawg get him goods by lettin' mi posse into da filthy hoods best be let mi pack gettin they a full rack kuz if you mess wit kuzim him will always be back.
word dawg be safe.
That looks like a Sun Tzu quote
a rogue goon |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1174
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:40:00 -
[2849] - Quote
Betrinna Cantis wrote:Seems a fair approch to me. If, say in RL, you get caught doing a Ponzi scheem or something along those lines, Your assets are frozen until things are sorted out. Not that hard to figure that CCP wouldn't do the same type of things is it? I may be wrong but it makes sense to me.
ponzi schemes are allowed in eve a rogue goon |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
383
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:42:00 -
[2850] - Quote
This is why I ******* love the Goons. Adapt or Die |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
486
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:47:00 -
[2851] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :(
That's the key, here, We Faction Five are being thrown under the bus to preserve the appearance that Goons do not actually run CCP. In fact, this entire thing was orchestrated with their approval and under their instruction.
Or, uh. Something.
You know, that sounds too dumb for even the "CCP is goons" crowd to try to claim. I guess that's why they're not here. . |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
147
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:55:00 -
[2852] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The problem with your logic there is that the EULA does not differentiate between a designer and a programmer being the origin. While the EULA may not, up until now CCP did. This is a change in the way they handled these alleged "exploits" so far, and that is in fact the whole reason for at least 130 of the existing pages in this thread (I forgot when reports of asset seizure were posted first).
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1423
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:57:00 -
[2853] - Quote
Shai 'Hulud wrote: It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.
If I find out that pressing a certain combination of buttons on an ATM I get delivered 100M dollars maybe, just maybe, I wonder if it's intended. And maybe I am not surprised when at 4am the FBI slams my door and rips me a new one.
It's not like the flaw gave 5 or 20% more income, it gave a lil more. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
486
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:04:00 -
[2854] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Wait for a final verdict. It they move to give the isk back, expect the 'CCP is Goons' rage from non-goons. If they don't, expect the 'CCP has **** on the sandbox' rage from members of goonswarm
You'll hear "Their actions are legitimate" from lots of non-goons too, you know.
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:Dear CCP Sreegs,
I feel that taking away the ISK earned by Goons is a grave mistake. You may see it as an exploit, but I see it as an application of forethought, planning and execution.
Let them keep their ISK. Seriously. Case in point! But then again, of course one of Eve's better known scammers would agree with us, right? . |
David Carel
Perkone Caldari State
261
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:12:00 -
[2855] - Quote
Eref Ataru wrote:A flaw is a flaw. Intentional or not. The exploitation of a flaw is against the terms of use. Which according to the sign up is a ban not an asset freeze, not a slap on the wrists it clearly states ban.
When there was that exploit on the new forum which allowed people to see areas they couldn't CCP said then, thanks for pointing it out but leave it now, sees theres showing that a flaw is there then there's using a flaw to your advantage realising that it's gone too far, informing CCP of the flaw, and hoping it all goes away.
If goons had been sensible enough to keep it private between CCP and select others then, they probably would of kept the lot, now I think they have forced their hand, and as a player of this game I expect the full punishment of banned accounts, else the only message that gets sent out is that if you get caught they take it back, the message should be you exploit you get banned. Same as bots.
TOS wrote: You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended. |
Akai Kvaesir
0ffice of Naval Intelligence
90
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:13:00 -
[2856] - Quote
You don't rob a bank, and then head over to the police station to give a three page report detailing EXACTLY how you bypassed the security...and expect to get away with it, do you? There was no risk, and infinite reward. Regardless of anything else, that reeks of exploitation, and at the very least is totally anti-EVE. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:16:00 -
[2857] - Quote
I love this thread. It is adding to my do not read this persons post file. The forums are so much better now that the tinfoil hatters are crawling out of the woodwork to be placed on that list.
Thanks Goons. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:19:00 -
[2858] - Quote
[quote]You'll hear "Their actions are legitimate" from lots of non-goons too, you know.[quote]
Joe Paterno helped his buddy **** little boys and people said the same thing about him too. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:20:00 -
[2859] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Shai 'Hulud wrote: It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.
If I find out that pressing a certain combination of buttons on an ATM I get delivered 100M dollars maybe, just maybe, I wonder if it's intended. And maybe I am not surprised when at 4am the FBI slams my door and rips me a new one. It's not like the flaw gave 5 or 20% more income, it gave a lil more. I think maybe that earthquake shook you up more than you think.
An exploit is when you magically create something out of thin air like your 100M dollars - it didn't exist.
This wealth wasn't created by magic. There was a hypothesis, a plan and then its execution that worked legally within the bounds of CCP's game mechanics. CCP have already confirmed nothing that this so called "Jewbal" did was wrong.
And now that you are saying it's a crime to be too successful - pray tell where is that limit?
A one million ISK market manipulation? One billion? One hundred billion?
CCP were warned this could happen. Like most pre-patch feedback it was ignored and they were totally outplayed.
CCP are just trying to find a way to save face now. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:23:00 -
[2860] - Quote
David Carel wrote:Eref Ataru wrote:A flaw is a flaw. Intentional or not. The exploitation of a flaw is against the terms of use. Which according to the sign up is a ban not an asset freeze, not a slap on the wrists it clearly states ban.
When there was that exploit on the new forum which allowed people to see areas they couldn't CCP said then, thanks for pointing it out but leave it now, sees theres showing that a flaw is there then there's using a flaw to your advantage realising that it's gone too far, informing CCP of the flaw, and hoping it all goes away.
If goons had been sensible enough to keep it private between CCP and select others then, they probably would of kept the lot, now I think they have forced their hand, and as a player of this game I expect the full punishment of banned accounts, else the only message that gets sent out is that if you get caught they take it back, the message should be you exploit you get banned. Same as bots. TOS wrote: You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended. CCP have confirmed that there was no bug, or exploit, or flaw etc. No rules were broken.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
|
Cahvus
Hedron Industries High Rollers
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:24:00 -
[2861] - Quote
DISCLAIMER: I have never had any sort of interactions with any goon of any sort and thus I have no allegiance or bias for or against them.
Although I admire the incredible creativity and planning that went into this I feel that there are a certain amount of misconceptions in this thread. Some of the people involved are saying that they online got involved because they wanted to "show CCP the significance and scope of this problem". Although their intentions are proclaimed to be noble, is it not similar to robbing a bank at gunpoint to iterate their lax security? (yes it is an extreme example but it is still relevant). All in all actions were taken that according to the information I have seen from this thread were abusive and/or exploitive to the game and thus the involved parties should have to face the consequences and penalties of their actions. To refer back to my previous analogy, you still robbed a bank whether you were attempting to help them see the errors of their ways or not.
Thank you.
Cahvus
Posted from my iPad. |
Fix Lag
309
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:28:00 -
[2862] - Quote
Use your signature feature instead of signing your posts.
Sincerely,
Fix Lag
Sent from my keyboard. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
486
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:30:00 -
[2863] - Quote
Cahvus wrote:Posted from my iPad.
You had to go and write that out just to let everyone know HEY GUYS I HAVE AN IPAD.
. |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:31:00 -
[2864] - Quote
There is no way that this can end in which Goons don't win. You must know this? |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
251
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:33:00 -
[2865] - Quote
Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.
:sigh:
"wikipedia article" wrote:An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] It is often colloquially abbreviated sploit. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them. I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:33:00 -
[2866] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote: The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended.CCP have confirmed that there was no bug, or exploit, or flaw etc. No rules were broken.
CCP Sreegs wrote:I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
CCP Sreegs wrote:You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same.
Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest.
Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".
CCP Sreegs wrote:I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
676
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:39:00 -
[2867] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed? You probably should file a petition before you do that. Particularly if you're in highsec since you can get banned for "messing with rookies" for shooting 6 year old faction battleship pilots these days. And don't forget that you're straight up not allowed to shoot at anyone under any circumstances in any one of them systems that the GMs have arbitrarily deemed to be "rookie systems" that have no kind of identifiable markings to them and aren't listed anywhere. |
Cahvus
Hedron Industries High Rollers
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:40:00 -
[2868] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Cahvus wrote:Posted from my iPad. You had to go and write that out just to let everyone know HEY GUYS I HAVE AN IPAD.
It makes me feel special on the inside. Not all of us have swimming pools filled with LP the we can paddle around in and thus have to use other means to feel good :p |
Dreiden Kisada
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:42:00 -
[2869] - Quote
*launches feature to give players LP based on manipulatable data *players manipulate data and get more LP *screams haxsploits and freaks out *is ccp |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
472
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:42:00 -
[2870] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:You'll hear "Their actions are legitimate" from lots of non-goons too, you know. Joe Paterno helped his buddy **** little boys and people said the same thing about him too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Ascentior
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:42:00 -
[2871] - Quote
Aryth wrote:A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. I have highlighted the important part for you.
Let discussions of if the group involved thought this was an exploit or not stop. The very first thing they did is define this as an exploit. Also remember that everything in EVE remains the property of CCP.
Likening this to robbing a bank isn't important, as robbing a bank would be acceptable in EVE. Duping items was something done in the past that was possible because of a failed game mechanic. It also didn't create ISK out of thin air, it did however, give people something to trade for ISK. Both cases are getting something of value (item to trade or LP to trade) by finding the hole in that game mechanic. Market Manipulation was the way that they increased the amount that this exploit was capable of returning in a short amount of time (get as much as you can before you get caught). If they got caught or handed themselves in is not relevant (although in most systems, coming clean usually means some leniency). |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:47:00 -
[2872] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lots of quotes. From an interview CCP gave:
Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:49:00 -
[2873] - Quote
Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay.
That's what hearsay is you pubtard, a second hand story.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
154
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:51:00 -
[2874] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:I love this thread. It is adding to my do not read this persons post file. The forums are so much better now that the tinfoil hatters are crawling out of the woodwork to be placed on that list.
Thanks Goons.
Feel free. Apparently smacking goonswarm over the head with a giant purple dildo has improved my standing in eve as one of eve's preeminent comedians.
I'd like to thank my fans for their kind words and evemails. I will, however, point out that the one from paint suggesting I 'dye in a fryer' might have done with a bit more revision before sending.
Or perhaps less vodka.
Graic Gabtar wrote:From an interview CCP gave: Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Yeah, CCP Sreegs already addressed that, suggesting that we use the interview as toilet paper.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1176
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:57:00 -
[2875] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay. That's what hearsay is you pubtard, a second hand story.
we're still waiting for you to tell us when your account lapses
after your 20th "I'M UNSUBBING" post a rogue goon |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 01:57:00 -
[2876] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lots of quotes. Saw what you did there. Link to interview please or it's in your head. All of the quotes I pulled are in this thread. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
154
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:02:00 -
[2877] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote: Link to interview please or it's in your head. All of the quotes I pulled are in this thread.
He speaks, brave Oison of the interview that CCP PR didst give, lo these many hours ago.
Which Sreegs didst smite mightily with an ironshod devhammer.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
472
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:02:00 -
[2878] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
That's what hearsay is you pubtard, a second hand story.
we're still waiting for you to tell us when your account lapses after your 20th "I'M UNSUBBING" post
Don't forget this part.
Lapine Davion wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:You'll hear "Their actions are legitimate" from lots of non-goons too, you know. Joe Paterno helped his buddy **** little boys and people said the same thing about him too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Arix Petra
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:04:00 -
[2879] - Quote
In most other games I've played (alot of MMOs) cross teaming is banned because it drives people away from competitive play. I really don't give a fruit if it's banned or not in Eve, just using that for reference.
In most other games using an unintended design flaw to gain an advantage was not allowed. Again I don't care if this in Eve or not.
A combination of the two, killing your own alts to gain an uncompetitive edge whilst also manipulating the system is really shady and I haven't read the whole post, but I think makes most people want to see action taken against the offenders.
If you argue that pushing the edges and combining every possible exploit it fair because "it was allowed in the game" then I HOPE, you are in for a rude awakening, and that CCP does not allow that. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
287
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:04:00 -
[2880] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:All of the quotes I pulled are in this thread. Ditto. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
538
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:04:00 -
[2881] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay. That's what hearsay is you pubtard, a second hand story. we're still waiting for you to tell us when your account lapses after your 20th "I'M UNSUBBING" post
Show me 2 and I'll biomass and send you my assets. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:07:00 -
[2882] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: He speaks, brave Oison of the interview that CCP PR didst give, lo these many hours ago.
Which Sreegs didst smite mightily with an ironshod devhammer.
I thought so, but wanted to get the link to be sure. Thanks for confirming! |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:09:00 -
[2883] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:All of the quotes I pulled are in this thread. Ditto.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it? Me. Xhagen had no access to any information and is not involved in the investigative process. You can basically use any article written about this thus far for toilet paper as anything contained within the articles is fantasy invented by the bloggers writing the articles. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
472
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:09:00 -
[2884] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
we're still waiting for you to tell us when your account lapses
after your 20th "I'M UNSUBBING" post
Show me 2 and I'll biomass and send you my assets.
Here is one.
Cipher Jones wrote: OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
One threat to unsub is all you should need. What is with this arbitrary "2 posts to unsub"? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:12:00 -
[2885] - Quote
Cahvus wrote:DISCLAIMER: I have never had any sort of interactions with any goon of any sort and thus I have no allegiance or bias for or against them.
Although I admire the incredible creativity and planning that went into this I feel that there are a certain amount of misconceptions in this thread. Some of the people involved are saying that they online got involved because they wanted to "show CCP the significance and scope of this problem". Although their intentions are proclaimed to be noble, is it not similar to robbing a bank at gunpoint to iterate their lax security? (yes it is an extreme example but it is still relevant). All in all actions were taken that according to the information I have seen from this thread were abusive and/or exploitive to the game and thus the involved parties should have to face the consequences and penalties of their actions. To refer back to my previous analogy, you still robbed a bank whether you were attempting to help them see the errors of their ways or not.
Thank you.
Cahvus
Posted from my iPad. So now we are supposed to be mind-readers of CCP devs to figure out what they intended? We had the Dev blog, we had it on SISI, we had people questioning/telling devs on the forums, everything pointed to the fact that this was, what was intended. Goons figured it out and Goons capitalized on it, I say good for them. Everything they did was within the rules and mechanics of the game, as presented to us. Now that this type of manipulation is considered an exploit, it shouldn't happen any more, end of story. Give them their stuff back and lets move on, the market will work itself out eventually in a few years. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
155
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:12:00 -
[2886] - Quote
Arix Petra wrote: If you argue that pushing the edges and combining every possible exploit it fair because "it was allowed in the game" then I HOPE, you are in for a rude awakening, and that CCP does not allow that.
CCP has pretty much said the same thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38gABbYiSHY&feature=related
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Apollo Cadelanne
DEADLY VIPER ASSASSINATION SQUAD 00
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:13:00 -
[2887] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
Nice to see you guys still rockin the Goon Gate..Never in my life have I seen a group of uber freaks lose their shite over flaunting openly with their peens in hand, pants down screwing cattle an' wondering why they now have syphilis. Can't do the time?? Don't do the crime! Blame it on Sony(which never came up in the beginning of this thread LMAO) Blame it on CCP(everyone usually does anyway which is really pathetic 'cuz i dunno .. maybe it's their frackin game???) or blame it on your parents.. BUT (now listen closely an I'll say it slowly) in the end it doesn't really matter.. you fracked yourselves. It's just simple cause an effect mechanics. And now your fracking a dead horse(bring out the violin of sympathy)..my god is there no end? So in your own ill misbegotten Goon words... lol.. "Don't like it? GTFO!" T-minus 14 days to unsub an counting.. GOON GATE LMAO
Are we not men??? We are DEVO
(You were probably told that for every year of Eve your P.E.N.I.S. would grow an inch.. should have read the contract's fine print.. me thinks so!) |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
538
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:14:00 -
[2888] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
we're still waiting for you to tell us when your account lapses
after your 20th "I'M UNSUBBING" post
Show me 2 and I'll biomass and send you my assets. Here is one. Cipher Jones wrote: OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
One threat to unsub is all you should need. What is with this arbitrary "2 posts to unsub"?
Because 1 is unequal to 20. Just wanted to prove the douchebag wrong publicly again.
Don't worry tho, my "power of 2 alt" will be here for you for another 120 days or so.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
472
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:15:00 -
[2889] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
we're still waiting for you to tell us when your account lapses
after your 20th "I'M UNSUBBING" post
Show me 2 and I'll biomass and send you my assets. Here is one. Cipher Jones wrote: OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
One threat to unsub is all you should need. What is with this arbitrary "2 posts to unsub"? Because 1 is unequal to 20. Just wanted to prove the douchebag wrong publicly again. Don't worry tho, my "power of 2 alt" will be here for you for another 120 days or so.
That always seems to be a problem with folks who threaten to unsub. Their accounts don't run out until people have forgotten they ever threatened to unsub. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:15:00 -
[2890] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Well, if you find a way to make a trillion isk an hour profit on it, you may want to check that, yeah. It wasn't a trillion per hour profit though? The whole thing happened over a couple of weeks.
so if its more profittable than say... incursions were pre nerf....
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
251
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:17:00 -
[2891] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. I am pretty sure they designed the mechanics with the intention to give a fair market value of items. The coding sucked though.
Speaking of which, I found, (thought of), the solution early on while reading this, though I'm not sure it would be particularly feasible to introduce as part of game design.
The issue lies primarily in the fact that the design that allowed this relied primarily on the use of player generated market data to create database entries that gave values for items based on their commonly traded market values. Really, this is something that players want, because it allows for implementation of proper insurance payouts, killboard entries with loss values in the new kill report feature, market tracking features, etc...
The fix is not so simple while maintaining the implementation of such a feature though, (at least not the one I've thought of), while allowing it to provide numbers for calculations to create insurance payouts or generate rewards such as the LP rewards in the new FW system.
What would need to be implemented is a system of checks and balances that adjudicated the databse values of all items by attempting to gather only accurate market data.
Effectively this would involve the review of each market trade to determine legitimacy based on the evaluation of this value compared to other trades involving the same items, and could also involve the arbitrary removal of consideration for mean value of an item of trades that occur in backwater systems or in places that generally do not see much trade.
Effectively, items in areas that are not considered trade hubs or active trade areas would immediately be ignored, while all other trades in valid areas would be collected as values in a database, after which a snooping program would check for the most commonly traded values within certain ranges, then remove values outside of that range and prevent them from influencing the mean or average value of an item entered in the database.
Now, the easiest way to do this without increasing lag or load on the servers would be to utilize the Content Delivery System that currently provides player avatar images to the client, (among other things perhaps), to deliver the information to the TQ server for use in such calculations.
This external database could then rely on daily static market dumps and external sorting programs to provide a reliable database that is current and evaluates and balances every static dump based on a system of logged values from previous dumps in addition to the values present in those dumps.
..I think that's as much as I need to work on that problem. I seem to have considered a way that makes my earlier statement invalid with regards to feasability too. Unfortunately, it would still require the implementation of a server and programs for gathering and evaluating all this data, so it's not an easy fix by any means.
It is the only one I can think of that would allow the continuation of the features that rely on it, and the implementation of new ones without.. ..omitted..
I'm making an assumption there, but I think it is a correct one. I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1176
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:18:00 -
[2892] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:so if its more profittable than say... incursions were pre nerf...
while requiring orders of magnitude more effort and intelligence a rogue goon |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:20:00 -
[2893] - Quote
We're missing one one. Someone that one hasn't posted. Where is he? WHERE IS HE???
Won't ya please make way for a very special guy Our man Mittani is king of the pumpkin patch Everyone heil to the Pumpkin King now!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw8pcxE6U9k
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:25:00 -
[2894] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The problem with your logic there is that the EULA does not differentiate between a designer and a programmer being the origin. While the EULA may not, up until now CCP did. This is a change in the way they handled these alleged "exploits" so far, and that is in fact the whole reason for at least 130 of the existing pages in this thread (I forgot when reports of asset seizure were posted first).
I been here since page 42 so before that http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:33:00 -
[2895] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Wait for a final verdict. It they move to give the isk back, expect the 'CCP is Goons' rage from non-goons. If they don't, expect the 'CCP has **** on the sandbox' rage from members of goonswarm
You'll hear "Their actions are legitimate" from lots of non-goons too, you know.
FAR less than you think if this thread is any indication
Eref Ataru wrote:A flaw is a flaw. Intentional or not. The exploitation of a flaw is against the terms of use. Which according to the sign up is a ban not an asset freeze, not a slap on the wrists it clearly states ban.
When there was that exploit on the new forum which allowed people to see areas they couldn't CCP said then, thanks for pointing it out but leave it now, sees theres showing that a flaw is there then there's using a flaw to your advantage realising that it's gone too far, informing CCP of the flaw, and hoping it all goes away.
If goons had been sensible enough to keep it private between CCP and select others then, they probably would of kept the lot, now I think they have forced their hand, and as a player of this game I expect the full punishment of banned accounts, else the only message that gets sent out is that if you get caught they take it back, the message should be you exploit you get banned. Same as bots.
It is damn funny how pissy Goons get when they receive slaps on the wrist isnt it?
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
Ban every titan pilot in a sensorboosted tracking link fleet... With no tank on their boat. Also ban the ruskies that took E8 in Imensea from xetic back when 50 target painters would cause all shots fired to do tripple damage Then you can take aryth's isk
Superior use if documented game mechanics can not be punished.
k, point to where this is a documented feature not an exploit. If you can do that we can prove CCP wrong. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
288
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:35:00 -
[2896] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:We're missing one one. Someone that one hasn't posted. Where is he? WHERE IS HE??? Won't ya please make way for a very special guy Our man Mittani is king of the pumpkin patch Everyone heil to the Pumpkin King now! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw8pcxE6U9k Mittens can afford to be patient.
CCP are the ones posturing, and trying to work out how to spin this.
Mittens will be watchful. Based on the laughably pre-judgmental comments from CCP Screegs when an investigation is still underway the Goons will need the be cautious of what is classed as an exploit. Something for instance such as an aggessive expansion of OTEC.
Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
487
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:36:00 -
[2897] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:We're missing one one. Someone that one hasn't posted. Where is he? WHERE IS HE??? Won't ya please make way for a very special guy Our man Mittani is king of the pumpkin patch Everyone heil to the Pumpkin King now! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw8pcxE6U9k Mittens can afford to be patient. CCP are the ones posturing, and trying to work out how to spin this. Mittens will be watchful. Based on the laughably pre-judgmental comments from CCP Screegs when an investigation is still underway the Goons will need the be cautious of what is classed as an exploit. Something for instance such as an aggessive expansion of OTEC. Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything.
Mittens had nothing to do with any of this. . |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:36:00 -
[2898] - Quote
David Carel wrote:
The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended.
the only problem is, Sreegs disagrees. Several times IN THIS THREAD
Akai Kvaesir wrote:You don't rob a bank, and then head over to the police station to give a three page report detailing EXACTLY how you bypassed the security...and expect to get away with it, do you? There was no risk, and infinite reward. Regardless of anything else, that reeks of exploitation, and at the very least is totally anti-EVE.
Or so Goons have been telling everyone in highsec and miners in general for years
But if its done to them, no thats not anti-EVE
Tallon Sylph wrote:There is no way that this can end in which Goons don't win. You must know this?
"We are here to destroy your game" indeed http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:38:00 -
[2899] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:
The only amount of "community anger" is the Goons and their pets blowing the forums up. Your tears have been filling swimming pools, and I can assume you will only retaliate with another temper tantrum in the form of Burn Jita 2. We all know how your last little temper tantrum a bout Mittani getting a slap on the wrist went. It accomplished nothing and made a joke of your alliance... again.
You guys should really just shut your mouths and take your punishment. I am assuming that all of the crap you keep spewing out is going to make the situation worse for you than it already is.
*Bursts through a Brick wall*
OH YEAH!
You'll have to forgive me, I've been on a bit of a killing spree in WoT plus all this fun has me wound up tighter than a rabid wolverine snorting amphetamines cut with powdered sugar and *******.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmti-h3HQxQ
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:39:00 -
[2900] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:David Carel wrote:Eref Ataru wrote:A flaw is a flaw. Intentional or not. The exploitation of a flaw is against the terms of use. Which according to the sign up is a ban not an asset freeze, not a slap on the wrists it clearly states ban.
When there was that exploit on the new forum which allowed people to see areas they couldn't CCP said then, thanks for pointing it out but leave it now, sees theres showing that a flaw is there then there's using a flaw to your advantage realising that it's gone too far, informing CCP of the flaw, and hoping it all goes away.
If goons had been sensible enough to keep it private between CCP and select others then, they probably would of kept the lot, now I think they have forced their hand, and as a player of this game I expect the full punishment of banned accounts, else the only message that gets sent out is that if you get caught they take it back, the message should be you exploit you get banned. Same as bots. TOS wrote: You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended. CCP have confirmed that there was no bug, or exploit, or flaw etc. No rules were broken.
So whered the Isk go? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:40:00 -
[2901] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:We're missing one one. Someone that one hasn't posted. Where is he? WHERE IS HE??? Won't ya please make way for a very special guy Our man Mittani is king of the pumpkin patch Everyone heil to the Pumpkin King now! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw8pcxE6U9k Mittens can afford to be patient. CCP are the ones posturing, and trying to work out how to spin this. Mittens will be watchful. Based on the laughably pre-judgmental comments from CCP Screegs when an investigation is still underway the Goons will need the be cautious of what is classed as an exploit. Something for instance such as an aggessive expansion of OTEC. Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything. Mittens had nothing to do with any of this.
Obama had nothing to do with 'Fast and Furious' either.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:40:00 -
[2902] - Quote
corestwo wrote: Mittens had nothing to do with any of this.
Actually several gaming media outlets have been looking to interview him re this, and he's remained highly hidden.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
288
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:41:00 -
[2903] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:We're missing one one. Someone that one hasn't posted. Where is he? WHERE IS HE??? Won't ya please make way for a very special guy Our man Mittani is king of the pumpkin patch Everyone heil to the Pumpkin King now! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw8pcxE6U9k Mittens can afford to be patient. CCP are the ones posturing, and trying to work out how to spin this. Mittens will be watchful. Based on the laughably pre-judgmental comments from CCP Screegs when an investigation is still underway the Goons will need the be cautious of what is classed as an exploit. Something for instance such as an aggessive expansion of OTEC. Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything. Mittens had nothing to do with any of this. This I will take your assurance on.
However, if he isn't considering the broader implications of CCP's latest reaction to their self ownage and ham fisted way of doing things he must of taken a blow to the head we don't know about. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
472
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:41:00 -
[2904] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:David Carel wrote:
The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended.
the only problem is, Sreegs disagrees. Several times IN THIS THREAD Akai Kvaesir wrote:You don't rob a bank, and then head over to the police station to give a three page report detailing EXACTLY how you bypassed the security...and expect to get away with it, do you? There was no risk, and infinite reward. Regardless of anything else, that reeks of exploitation, and at the very least is totally anti-EVE. Or so Goons have been telling everyone in highsec and miners in general for years But if its done to them, no thats not anti-EVE
You set up this post to quote Sreegs, then you quoted someone else. Why would you do that? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:42:00 -
[2905] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :(
Honestly these guys could be getting used as patsies. After the blow back on CCP from the war dec changes that occurred as soon as goons got dog piled it wouldn't surprise me. CCP needs to try to save face on the community thinking they are in bed with goons. Especially since it is a growing concern for a lot of people. What better way than to throw a small group of them under the bus for abusing some in game mechanics like idiots? Serves the purpose of making CCP look harsh against the goons and makes an example for any other situations that may occur with abusing game mechanics. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
472
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:43:00 -
[2906] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:
The only amount of "community anger" is the Goons and their pets blowing the forums up. Your tears have been filling swimming pools, and I can assume you will only retaliate with another temper tantrum in the form of Burn Jita 2. We all know how your last little temper tantrum a bout Mittani getting a slap on the wrist went. It accomplished nothing and made a joke of your alliance... again.
You guys should really just shut your mouths and take your punishment. I am assuming that all of the crap you keep spewing out is going to make the situation worse for you than it already is.
*Bursts through a Brick wall* OH YEAH! You'll have to forgive me, I've been on a bit of a killing spree in WoT plus all this fun has me wound up tighter than a rabid wolverine snorting amphetamines cut with powdered sugar and *******. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmti-h3HQxQ
Too bad you can't have fun in MWO. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:44:00 -
[2907] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lots of quotes. From an interview CCP gave: Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Before or after Sreegs? Kinda asking which is more recent and the CURRENT party line
Lapine Davion wrote:
Too bad you can't have fun in MWO.
Really? Youre in the Beta I take it? Whats your name there? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1176
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:45:00 -
[2908] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :( Honestly these guys could be getting used as patsies. After the blow back on CCP from the war dec changes that occurred as soon as goons got dog piled it wouldn't surprise me. CCP needs to try to save face on the community thinking they are in bed with goons. Especially since it is a growing concern for a lot of people. What better way than to throw a small group of them under the bus for abusing some in game mechanics like idiots? Serves the purpose of making CCP look harsh against the goons and makes an example for any other situations that may occur with abusing game mechanics.
they don't have to save face because they could have just banned the person riling everyone up over it and spreading a dumb rumor
they also don't have to save face because, well, we literally don't give a crap about wardecs a rogue goon |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:50:00 -
[2909] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:so if its more profittable than say... incursions were pre nerf... while requiring orders of magnitude more effort and intelligence
and less risk and more reward :D
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:51:00 -
[2910] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:We're missing one one. Someone that one hasn't posted. Where is he? WHERE IS HE??? Won't ya please make way for a very special guy Our man Mittani is king of the pumpkin patch Everyone heil to the Pumpkin King now! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw8pcxE6U9k
Im waiting for the Sins of a Solar Spymaster blog lol
why HASNT he gone screaming to every video gaming press site in the world like he usually does when CCP does things he doesnt like? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
160
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:52:00 -
[2911] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: Too bad you can't have fun in MWO.
Only had enough time to alpha test one thing, so I went with WoWP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXo8UBwE18E
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:52:00 -
[2912] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:We're missing one one. Someone that one hasn't posted. Where is he? WHERE IS HE??? Won't ya please make way for a very special guy Our man Mittani is king of the pumpkin patch Everyone heil to the Pumpkin King now! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw8pcxE6U9k Mittens can afford to be patient. CCP are the ones posturing, and trying to work out how to spin this. Mittens will be watchful. Based on the laughably pre-judgmental comments from CCP Screegs when an investigation is still underway the Goons will need the be cautious of what is classed as an exploit. Something for instance such as an aggessive expansion of OTEC. Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything.
Im hoping to see this
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:corestwo wrote: Mittens had nothing to do with any of this.
Actually several gaming media outlets have been looking to interview him re this, and he's remained highly hidden.
odd that he chooses THIS story to be quiet on huh? http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:57:00 -
[2913] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :( Honestly these guys could be getting used as patsies. After the blow back on CCP from the war dec changes that occurred as soon as goons got dog piled it wouldn't surprise me. CCP needs to try to save face on the community thinking they are in bed with goons. Especially since it is a growing concern for a lot of people. What better way than to throw a small group of them under the bus for abusing some in game mechanics like idiots? Serves the purpose of making CCP look harsh against the goons and makes an example for any other situations that may occur with abusing game mechanics. they don't have to save face because they could have just banned the person riling everyone up over it and spreading a dumb rumor they also don't have to save face because, well, we literally don't give a crap about wardecs
Yeah, we literally saw you literally not give a crap so hard you got it changed http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
160
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:57:00 -
[2914] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything.
I hope to see this too: I'd love to see Mittens screw a saw. A nice rusty one. Or maybe a chainsaw....
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1176
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:58:00 -
[2915] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :( Honestly these guys could be getting used as patsies. After the blow back on CCP from the war dec changes that occurred as soon as goons got dog piled it wouldn't surprise me. CCP needs to try to save face on the community thinking they are in bed with goons. Especially since it is a growing concern for a lot of people. What better way than to throw a small group of them under the bus for abusing some in game mechanics like idiots? Serves the purpose of making CCP look harsh against the goons and makes an example for any other situations that may occur with abusing game mechanics. they don't have to save face because they could have just banned the person riling everyone up over it and spreading a dumb rumor they also don't have to save face because, well, we literally don't give a crap about wardecs Yeah, we literally saw you literally not give a crap so hard you got it changed
reported for rumors~ a rogue goon |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 02:59:00 -
[2916] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything. I hope to see this too: I'd love to see Mittens screw a saw. A nice rusty one. Or maybe a chainsaw....
Id like to see him try to burn it all down like the Goons constantly threaten. JUST DO IT
Then again Id LOVE to see the hamfisted CCP response that bans them all http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
90
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:02:00 -
[2917] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything. I hope to see this too: I'd love to see Mittens screw a saw. A nice rusty one. Or maybe a chainsaw.... Id like to see him try to burn it all down like the Goons constantly threaten.l
[Citation Needed]
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
160
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:02:00 -
[2918] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:reported for rumors~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogJqpRXy3Jw
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Dreiden Kisada
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:03:00 -
[2919] - Quote
Haquer wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything. I hope to see this too: I'd love to see Mittens screw a saw. A nice rusty one. Or maybe a chainsaw.... Id like to see him try to burn it all down like the Goons constantly threaten. [Citation Needed]
That's hearsay and you don't know what you're talking about. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1177
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:06:00 -
[2920] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Then again Id LOVE to see the hamfisted CCP response that bans them all
like when they waved the banhammer at us when we disrupted gallente ice mining, burned jita, created a technetium cartel and funded hulkageddon? a rogue goon |
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
540
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:08:00 -
[2921] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:I love this thread. It is adding to my do not read this persons post file. The forums are so much better now that the tinfoil hatters are crawling out of the woodwork to be placed on that list.
Thanks Goons. Feel free. Apparently smacking goonswarm over the head with a giant purple dildo has improved my standing in eve as one of eve's preeminent comedians. I'd like to thank my fans for their kind words and evemails. I will, however, point out that the one from paint suggesting I 'dye in a fryer' might have done with a bit more revision before sending. Or perhaps less vodka. Graic Gabtar wrote:From an interview CCP gave: Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. " Yeah, CCP Sreegs already addressed that, suggesting that we use the interview as toilet paper. Cipher Jones wrote: That's what hearsay is you pubtard, a second hand story.
Cipher, you might want ot consider not casting aspirations on other intelligence if you don't realize that he's talking about people giving first person eye witness accounts. While your definition is right, it's clear his point has warped to zero past you.
I realize hearsay is irrelevant to arguing with Sreegs, and that CCP does not need to hear first hand testimony when they have the logs, and that they will never give us said logs. EVERYTHING else is hearsay. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
160
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:10:00 -
[2922] - Quote
Dreiden Kisada wrote: That's hearsay and you don't know what you're talking about.
It's funny that when it bites them it's hearsay but if they think it's funny or their epeens are good and hard they're all over the forum with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZKq1HqZuvw
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:15:00 -
[2923] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :( Honestly these guys could be getting used as patsies. After the blow back on CCP from the war dec changes that occurred as soon as goons got dog piled it wouldn't surprise me. CCP needs to try to save face on the community thinking they are in bed with goons. Especially since it is a growing concern for a lot of people. What better way than to throw a small group of them under the bus for abusing some in game mechanics like idiots? Serves the purpose of making CCP look harsh against the goons and makes an example for any other situations that may occur with abusing game mechanics. they don't have to save face because they could have just banned the person riling everyone up over it and spreading a dumb rumor they also don't have to save face because, well, we literally don't give a crap about wardecs Yeah, we literally saw you literally not give a crap so hard you got it changed reported for rumors~
edited to stay within rules :D
unless you like it when ppl get retroactively punished after the fact (supposedly what happened to you after all) http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1453
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:19:00 -
[2924] - Quote
Morning guys... |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:19:00 -
[2925] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Then again Id LOVE to see the hamfisted CCP response that bans them all like when they waved the banhammer at us when we disrupted gallente ice mining, burned jita, created a technetium cartel and funded hulkageddon?
Wasnt that all "market manipulation" which as your people are claiming in this thread is now illegal?
lol yeah this is funny as hell
Oh come on, its more funny when you quote post T20 BoB http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
541
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:19:00 -
[2926] - Quote
Quote:That always seems to be a problem with folks who threaten to unsub. Their accounts don't run out until people have forgotten they ever threatened to unsub.
Hyperbole is a sin, you guys.
Whats a problem is people don't know how to use the ignore button. I honestly don't give 2 ***** what Joe Poster thinks about the relevance of my sub. I know god damn well what CCP thinks of it because their C.E.O. gave a speech apologizing for their mismanagement and begged us to stay/come back. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
289
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:24:00 -
[2927] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote:Morning guys... So you say.
Sounds like rumor.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:26:00 -
[2928] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:Morning guys... So you say. Sounds like rumor.
reported for rumor cause its 11 pm here http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:29:00 -
[2929] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :( Honestly these guys could be getting used as patsies. After the blow back on CCP from the war dec changes that occurred as soon as goons got dog piled it wouldn't surprise me. CCP needs to try to save face on the community thinking they are in bed with goons. Especially since it is a growing concern for a lot of people. What better way than to throw a small group of them under the bus for abusing some in game mechanics like idiots? Serves the purpose of making CCP look harsh against the goons and makes an example for any other situations that may occur with abusing game mechanics. they don't have to save face because they could have just banned the person riling everyone up over it and spreading a dumb rumor they also don't have to save face because, well, we literally don't give a crap about wardecs Yeah, we literally saw you literally not give a crap so hard it got changed
This is easy to believe if you fall for the insane conspiracy theories. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:31:00 -
[2930] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :( Honestly these guys could be getting used as patsies. After the blow back on CCP from the war dec changes that occurred as soon as goons got dog piled it wouldn't surprise me. CCP needs to try to save face on the community thinking they are in bed with goons. Especially since it is a growing concern for a lot of people. What better way than to throw a small group of them under the bus for abusing some in game mechanics like idiots? Serves the purpose of making CCP look harsh against the goons and makes an example for any other situations that may occur with abusing game mechanics. they don't have to save face because they could have just banned the person riling everyone up over it and spreading a dumb rumor they also don't have to save face because, well, we literally don't give a crap about wardecs Yeah, we literally saw you literally not give a crap so hard it got changed This is easy to believe if you fall for the insane conspiracy theories.
lol this exploit was an insane conspiracy theory before it was true as was T20
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
161
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:33:00 -
[2931] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:Morning guys... So you say. Sounds like rumor.
I got a hot rumor.
Some Men Just Like to Watch the World Burn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW_eyQ0zPEc
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
RAP ACTION HERO
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:39:00 -
[2932] - Quote
hey tell us how if we was all using avatars and emoting each other for all market functions all this wouldn't have happened |
Hesperus Vanderbeets
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
262
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:54:00 -
[2933] - Quote
Ban me. |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:57:00 -
[2934] - Quote
Hesperus Vanderbeets wrote:Ban me. Ban Me.
E: but wait until the Steam's summer sale. |
Hesperus Vanderbeets
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
262
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 04:09:00 -
[2935] - Quote
Ban one or ban all. It's your call CCP.
Can you handle that much blood on your hands? |
SavageBastard
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 04:16:00 -
[2936] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:
you know damn perfectly well that this is nothing like buying a maelstrom and reseling it. This is nothing compared to that. We are talking of 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation based on a vulnerability (exploit of mechanic). If you are gonna exploit a mechanic then you ask if its within the rules so that you are covered. Dont try to down play 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation of a game mechanic. Once again if you did not read the EULA go and do so again.
No it's not. It's like building a maelstrom and self-destructing it for insurance money, then taking the money to buy more minerals and doing it again. Only in this case CCP let players decide what the insurance price would be so the profit is cranked way up. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
221
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 04:35:00 -
[2937] - Quote
Hesperus Vanderbeets wrote:Ban me.
I would suggest a bio-massing of your char, nay, all your accounts, would certainly make a lasting statement to all players and CCP management.
You would be remembered as someone who stood up for their principles. I would certainly applaud you if you made that grand gesture. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 04:45:00 -
[2938] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Hesperus Vanderbeets wrote:Ban me. I would suggest a bio-massing of your char, nay, all your accounts, would certainly make a lasting statement to all players and CCP management. You would be remembered as someone who stood up for their principles. I would certainly applaud you if you made that grand gesture.
The Dinsdale Brothers sketch wasn't very funny. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 04:46:00 -
[2939] - Quote
I am Spartacus! Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Imrik86
Underdog Corp
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 04:51:00 -
[2940] - Quote
Hesperus Vanderbeets wrote:Ban one or ban all. It's your call CCP.
Can you handle that much blood on your hands?
Damn.
The Internet Spaceships' Shakespeare. |
|
Nevigrofnu Mrots
Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:00:00 -
[2941] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
Hi Sreegs, by reading the OP post, I can see they making LP in two moments in time.
1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP. By this time normal prices (no manipulation of market was done for any item) were used by the ccp scripts, and cargo contents were valid for the calculation of ship cost, so all LP gain during this time In myy option was good and according with CCP gidelines/design. Then they use this LP to upgrade FW and cash in with discounts that I also think was legal, correct me if I'm wrong.
...then CCP decided that the cargo contents should not be used for ship cost calculations, fine, they change the code. Just like you decided to change the cost of insurance to avoid insurance fraud that was a valid eve game play at one time... fine your rigth, but until you change it, in my optinion blow up ships with lots of stuff in cargo was a valid way of making LP.
2nd moment - the script that calculates the prices had bugs (I assume from your posts), so any manipulation of market tricked the script to assume the new high prices sooner than it should????. If my assuption is right than at this point I agree, if the script had a problem, anything they did that made the bad scipt update new prices with absurd values is a exploit... so any LP gain after the patch is "dirty" by this move.
In my opinion since there are two moments, CCP should check the logs and return all material and points that they made unitl the change to ship cost calculations and clear the rest after that... (my opinion)
About the stuff they had in hangar that had nothing to do with the FW or LP return them that stuff dont be mean.
Also the money they paid in FW store with the "second moment" gain LPs, take the products back, take the LPs back, but return the ISK they use to buy the products with those dirty LPs...
Since they come forward with this sytory and gave CCP a fantastic publicity in all the gamming sites, take that in consideration before... you know, wave your hammer and hit someone with it... |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7458
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:08:00 -
[2942] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Wait for a final verdict. It they move to give the isk back, expect the 'CCP is Goons' rage from non-goons. If they don't, expect the 'CCP has **** on the sandbox' rage from members of goonswarm
You'll hear "Their actions are legitimate" from lots of non-goons too, you know. Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:Dear CCP Sreegs,
I feel that taking away the ISK earned by Goons is a grave mistake. You may see it as an exploit, but I see it as an application of forethought, planning and execution.
Let them keep their ISK. Seriously. Case in point! But then again, of course one of Eve's better known scammers would agree with us, right? I too think this was legit. The fault lies with CCP, as this is a simple case of them underestimating the player base and releasing poor design.
This is yet another prime example of CCP shooting themselves in the foot, something they seem to be getting quite adept at doing of late.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
489
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:12:00 -
[2943] - Quote
Quote:
2nd moment - the script that calculates the prices had bugs (I assume from your posts), so any manipulation of market tricked the script to assume the new high prices sooner than it should????. If my assuption is right than at this point I agree, if the script had a problem, anything they did that made the bad scipt update new prices with absurd values is a exploit... so any LP gain after the patch is "dirty" by this move.
No, the problem is that sreegs seems to be convinced that the fact that the script updated weekly somehow mattered, when in fact the estimated price could have been updated in real time and the result would still have been exactly the same. . |
Lee Whelan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:14:00 -
[2944] - Quote
Well, since my LP isn't worth as much as it used to..
I can haz some money bin action? |
Post Post Post
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:21:00 -
[2945] - Quote
Imrik86 wrote:Hesperus Vanderbeets wrote:Ban one or ban all. It's your call CCP.
Can you handle that much blood on your hands? Damn. The Internet Spaceships' Shakespeare.
I was personally thinking Spartacus. |
Hesperus Vanderbeets
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
263
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:22:00 -
[2946] - Quote
Ban me. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
491
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:24:00 -
[2947] - Quote
Quote:Mission rewards paid out in Feb: 2,470,815,985,076 ISK. Mission bonuses: 2,346,410,541,970 ISK. Insurance payouts in Feb: 3,366,455,121,035 ISK. Paid for insurance: 1,618,888,782,680 ISK. ISK earnt from NPC bounties in Feb: 32,083,329,999,805 ISK 8,566,015,400,900 ISK paid out in Incursion rewards in February. Last one up; 21,847 LP store wallet transactions costing a total of 218.33bn ISK.
That last one is referring to a single day, which means something in excess of 6 billion LP a month, to say nothing of nearly 50 trillion new isk created.
You see why we're pretty confident in saying that what we did would actually have no long term effect? . |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:33:00 -
[2948] - Quote
Nevigrofnu Mrots wrote:
1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP.
That by itself pretty much screams exploit to me lol
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:44:00 -
[2949] - Quote
I notice the CSM has been very, very quiet on this issue. Do non of you have any input at all now mittens is not there to hold your hands?...
Also, Skreegs, Serious question...is it appropriate that you're conducting the investigation?...If this was in real life with real money HR wouldn't let you poke the issue with a ****** stick due to your previous involvement with Goonwaffeswarmfeetboot as an our CEO. You wouldn't be trusted to provide a neutral, unbiased opinion, is this being taken less seriously because its fake internetspaceship money?...is they why the conflict of interest is acceptable in CCP's eyes? |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:56:00 -
[2950] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Nevigrofnu Mrots wrote:
1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP.
That by itself pretty much screams exploit to me lol but eh, then I guess I have that common sense trait
Their ships were being blown up by characters of the opposing faction. How does that scream exploit to you? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
|
Maestro Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:01:00 -
[2951] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Nevigrofnu Mrots wrote:
1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP.
That by itself pretty much screams exploit to me lol but eh, then I guess I have that common sense trait Their ships were being blown up by characters of the opposing faction. How does that scream exploit to you?
anything that involves blowing your own **** up for profit is an exploit |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:05:00 -
[2952] - Quote
Maestro Antollare wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Nevigrofnu Mrots wrote:
1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP.
That by itself pretty much screams exploit to me lol but eh, then I guess I have that common sense trait Their ships were being blown up by characters of the opposing faction. How does that scream exploit to you? anything that involves blowing your own **** up for profit is an exploit
By that logic when we get bored and blow each other up in VFK knowing we'll make a profit on insurance its an exploit. |
Maestro Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:11:00 -
[2953] - Quote
Cerebral Wolf wrote:Maestro Antollare wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Nevigrofnu Mrots wrote:
1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP.
That by itself pretty much screams exploit to me lol but eh, then I guess I have that common sense trait Their ships were being blown up by characters of the opposing faction. How does that scream exploit to you? anything that involves blowing your own **** up for profit is an exploit By that logic when we get bored and blow each other up in VFK knowing we'll make a profit on insurance its an exploit.
do you make 5t in profit and then make a vain, pretentious display of how clever you are?
goons rob a bank; tell the police how they robbed it and laugh at them for not seeing the hole; cries, bitches, and moans when the police take their loot away
did i miss anything? |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:19:00 -
[2954] - Quote
Whats with the stupid bank analogy you all need to share? Can't you use your own special snowflake one or can you not think of your own?...
I fail to see why everyone's so pissed about the situation. |
SavageBastard
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:27:00 -
[2955] - Quote
Maestro Antollare wrote: do you make 5t in profit and then make a vain, pretentious display of how clever you are?
goons rob a bank; tell the police how they robbed it and laugh at them for not seeing the hole; cries, bitches, and moans when the police take their loot away
did i miss anything?
I'm sorry but I'm confused. Is it profit or is it theft? Nobody robbed anybody here. CCP made a bad system. Nobody is arguing that you SHOULD be able to make this kind of money, even Aryth (which is why he posted this here thread). But they did. Because the game worked how they coded it to work. Now CCP is mad because they know they screwed up and you're mad because someone is rubbing your nose is how much money they made while you sat around hoping your bad posting would pay off some day. |
Maestro Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:31:00 -
[2956] - Quote
Cerebral Wolf wrote:Whats with the stupid bank analogy you all need to share? Can't you use your own special snowflake one or can you not think of your own?...
ok, sure
let's say you read the patch notes for your favorite game and notice an interesting loophole in the patch notes
you test and confirm your discovery in game, and use it to accumulate a significant amount of wealth
the devs discover the loophole, and patch it
you find the patch didn't fully correct the loophole, and adjust your plan to compensate
after you're tired of using the loophole, you make a bombastic post on the forums telling the devs what idiots they are for not seeing it sooner
tears flow in copious amounts |
Ronni Zigman
The Scope Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:40:00 -
[2957] - Quote
Since CCPs policy is to not do anything about it until you post it on the forums, can I continue to abuse corp aggression mechanics to get people CONCORDed? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:41:00 -
[2958] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Nevigrofnu Mrots wrote:
1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP.
That by itself pretty much screams exploit to me lol but eh, then I guess I have that common sense trait Their ships were being blown up by characters of the opposing faction. How does that scream exploit to you?
thats not what it says
"1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP."
THEY fill ships with THEIR stuff ten blow them up. This looks to me like its saying they fill ships with their own stuff and then purposely destroy them (IE self destruct). And get LP for it.
Not they get them destroyed by the enemy. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:41:00 -
[2959] - Quote
Maestro Antollare wrote:Cerebral Wolf wrote:Whats with the stupid bank analogy you all need to share? Can't you use your own special snowflake one or can you not think of your own?...
ok, sure let's say you read the patch notes for your favorite game and notice an interesting loophole in the patch notes you test and confirm your discovery in game, and use it to accumulate a significant amount of wealth the devs discover the loophole, and patch it you find the patch didn't fully correct the loophole, and adjust your plan to compensate after you're tired of using the loophole, you make a bombastic post on the forums telling the devs and other players what idiots they are for not seeing it sooner tears flow in copious amounts At the end of the day I feel the worst for the FW people. They wanted content iteration and got this. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1453
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:42:00 -
[2960] - Quote
This thread... |
|
Maestro Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:42:00 -
[2961] - Quote
pretend this was any other game - i find an item i could buy from an npc that would sell to that same npc for more than i originally paid to buy it, use that to max out my gold, isk, w/e, then tell the devs about it
yes, the devs should have seen it, but it was obviously not intended to do what i used it for |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:43:00 -
[2962] - Quote
Cerebral Wolf wrote:
By that logic when we get bored and blow each other up in VFK knowing we'll make a profit on insurance its an exploit.
oh come on you CANT ACTUALLY be that stupid, quit pretending
you REALLY cant tell the difference? REALLY?
How did you get past the learning curve?
SavageBastard wrote:
I'm sorry but I'm confused. Is it profit or is it theft? Nobody robbed anybody here. CCP made a bad system. Nobody is arguing that you SHOULD be able to make this kind of money, even Aryth (which is why he posted this here thread). But they did. Because the game worked how they coded it to work. Now CCP is mad because they know they screwed up and you're mad because someone is rubbing your nose is how much money they made while you sat around hoping your bad posting would pay off some day.
OK Ill try:
The bank is made in such a way you can walk into te vault and make off with the money. You do this, swagger to the police station, show them the money and brag and are pissed when they take it. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:44:00 -
[2963] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Nevigrofnu Mrots wrote:
1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP.
That by itself pretty much screams exploit to me lol but eh, then I guess I have that common sense trait Their ships were being blown up by characters of the opposing faction. How does that scream exploit to you? thats not what it says "1st moment - They fill ships with their stuff, blow them up, gain LP." THEY fill ships with THEIR stuff ten blow them up. This looks to me like its saying they fill ships with their own stuff and then purposely destroy them (IE self destruct). And get LP for it. Not they get them destroyed by the enemy. I thought Malkavians were liberated by such construct as respect of person and possession. Hell, don't you think you are the enemy half the time when you're a Malk?!?
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:47:00 -
[2964] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:I thought Malkavians were liberated by such construct as respect of person and possession. Hell, don't you think you are the enemy half the time when you're a Malk?!?
Depends On the individual. Im saving the universe from the evil that are oranges. I have a whole speech prepared on how they take over your mind with the juicy (supposed) goodness that you eat/drink and it shifts your conscousness towards pro orange agendas.
The only REAL problem I have is the lack of an ability to sleep and the random voices saying stuff that distracts me from what Im attempting to do at the time. Its extremely annoying given that I KNOW they dont actually exist yet even KNOWING THAT I cant just writ them off cause they tell me important things. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1425
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:47:00 -
[2965] - Quote
David Carel wrote:Eref Ataru wrote:A flaw is a flaw. Intentional or not. The exploitation of a flaw is against the terms of use. Which according to the sign up is a ban not an asset freeze, not a slap on the wrists it clearly states ban.
When there was that exploit on the new forum which allowed people to see areas they couldn't CCP said then, thanks for pointing it out but leave it now, sees theres showing that a flaw is there then there's using a flaw to your advantage realising that it's gone too far, informing CCP of the flaw, and hoping it all goes away.
If goons had been sensible enough to keep it private between CCP and select others then, they probably would of kept the lot, now I think they have forced their hand, and as a player of this game I expect the full punishment of banned accounts, else the only message that gets sent out is that if you get caught they take it back, the message should be you exploit you get banned. Same as bots. TOS wrote: You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended.
You can build a skyscraper with perfect sub-components, perfect materials, in the best place and... bork the structural calculations so it crumbles after 2 weeks. Individual parts worked exactly as intended but now it's a pile of dirt. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:49:00 -
[2966] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:David Carel wrote:Eref Ataru wrote:A flaw is a flaw. Intentional or not. The exploitation of a flaw is against the terms of use. Which according to the sign up is a ban not an asset freeze, not a slap on the wrists it clearly states ban.
When there was that exploit on the new forum which allowed people to see areas they couldn't CCP said then, thanks for pointing it out but leave it now, sees theres showing that a flaw is there then there's using a flaw to your advantage realising that it's gone too far, informing CCP of the flaw, and hoping it all goes away.
If goons had been sensible enough to keep it private between CCP and select others then, they probably would of kept the lot, now I think they have forced their hand, and as a player of this game I expect the full punishment of banned accounts, else the only message that gets sent out is that if you get caught they take it back, the message should be you exploit you get banned. Same as bots. TOS wrote: You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended. You can build a skyscraper with perfect sub-components, perfect materials, in the best place and... bork the structural calculations so it crumbles after 2 weeks. Individual parts worked exactly as intended but now it's a pile of dirt. Your comparison is flawed. The "Jewbal" built the economic equivalent of a warp drive with the economic equivalent of tinker toys.
That's why everybody's so mad.
Economic warp fields shouldn't be possible with Viking-made formulae. Icelandic Calculus is champion. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:50:00 -
[2967] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
The bank is made in such a way you can walk into te vault and make off with the money. You do this, swagger to the police station, show them the money and brag and are pissed when they take it.
I like the bank analogy tho lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:52:00 -
[2968] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I thought Malkavians were liberated by such construct as respect of person and possession. Hell, don't you think you are the enemy half the time when you're a Malk?!? Depends On the individual. Im saving the universe from the evil that are oranges. I have a whole speech prepared on how they take over your mind with the juicy (supposed) goodness that you eat/drink and it shifts your conscousness towards pro orange agendas. The only REAL problem I have is the lack of an ability to sleep and the random voices saying stuff that distracts me from what Im attempting to do at the time. Its extremely annoying given that I KNOW they dont actually exist yet even KNOWING THAT I cant just writ them off cause they tell me important things. Yeah plus they grow in sunshine and wither in your presence, so...
I totally take your point. Oh did you hear Abraham Lincoln was a vampire hunter?!? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:54:00 -
[2969] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I thought Malkavians were liberated by such construct as respect of person and possession. Hell, don't you think you are the enemy half the time when you're a Malk?!? Depends On the individual. Im saving the universe from the evil that are oranges. I have a whole speech prepared on how they take over your mind with the juicy (supposed) goodness that you eat/drink and it shifts your conscousness towards pro orange agendas. The only REAL problem I have is the lack of an ability to sleep and the random voices saying stuff that distracts me from what Im attempting to do at the time. Its extremely annoying given that I KNOW they dont actually exist yet even KNOWING THAT I cant just writ them off cause they tell me important things. Yeah plus they grow in sunshine and wither in your presence, so... I totally take your point. Oh did you hear Abraham Lincoln was a vampire hunter?!?
Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get is that one trick--rational thinking--but when you're good and crazy, well, the sky's the limit! ~The Tick
So Ive heard, its just Masquerade. He is a Ventrue
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1425
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:57:00 -
[2970] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Earthquake.
Shame on you to offend those who died and those who now are homeless just to show snarky on the internets.
Graic Gabtar wrote: An exploit is when you magically create something out of thin air like your 100M dollars - it didn't exist.
This wealth wasn't created by magic. There was a hypothesis, a plan and then its execution that worked legally within the bounds of CCP's game mechanics. CCP have already confirmed nothing that this so called "Jewbal" did was wrong.
I don't know in which alternate universe you live, but in mine ATM are pre-loaded with physical bank notes therefore they don't create them "out of thin air" and they do exist. The using of those buttons to take out tons of money was also an hypothesis, a plan and its execution and worked legally (ATM does not get forced, just "used" in its functionality).
Also, CCP in the person of their official security personnel confirmed it's an abuse. From Ab-usus that is use inappropriately. Does not mean it's wrong, it means it was used wrong.
Hopefully CCP Sreegs will see your misrepresentation of his words and act accordingly on your posting rights, including for your sad joking on a disgrace happened in my country. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1454
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:57:00 -
[2971] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:So Ive heard, its just Masquerade. He is a Ventrue
I lol'ed at this! |
15th Century Portrait
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:04:00 -
[2972] - Quote
after this many pages, is there anything left to say?
except. p.e.n.i.s. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
491
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:15:00 -
[2973] - Quote
Maestro Antollare wrote:pretend this is any other game - i find an item i can buy from an npc that sells to that same npc for more than i originally paid to buy it, use that to max out my gold, isk, w/e, then tell the devs about it
yes, the devs should have seen it, but it was obviously not intended to do what i used it for
Depends on the devs. I've heard exactly what you described (well, close) happened in EQ 2 or something, and SOE flipped out and banned. On the other hand, I've heard something like it happened in LOTR Online and the devs there went "yep, our fault" and simply fixed it and moved on.
CCP used to be like the latter example.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: You can build a skyscraper with perfect sub-components, perfect materials, in the best place and... bork the structural calculations so it crumbles after 2 weeks. Individual parts worked exactly as intended but now it's a pile of dirt.
I know what you're trying to say, mostly because you've said it again and again, but...your example sucks, because if you "bork the structural calculations" then individual parts were not, in fact, working as intended. . |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1425
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:16:00 -
[2974] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:[quote=Cahvus] So now we are supposed to be mind-readers of CCP devs to figure out what they intended? We had the Dev blog, we had it on SISI, we had people questioning/telling devs on the forums, everything pointed to the fact that this was, what was intended. Goons figured it out and Goons capitalized on it, I say good for them. Everything they did was within the rules and mechanics of the game, as presented to us. Now that this type of manipulation is considered an exploit, it shouldn't happen any more, end of story. Give them their stuff back and lets move on, the market will work itself out eventually in a few years.
Do you come from another planet? No, you come from those countries with no moral values where "IF I CAN DO IT, I WILL DO IT" until somebody physically removes you the ability to do something OBVIOUS to be an abuse.
You are insulting everybody's intelligence if you really believe that it takes to be mind readers for not understanding this whole plan was a giant abuse and not just some innocent coincidence.
The very "the market will work itself out eventually in a few years" is the symbol of the immeasurable damage done to a whole video game made for the hundreds of thousands, who will be adversely affected for years (if not rolled back). It's is also a massive CCP investment loss over a feature (FW) they worked for half a year to revamp just to see it made into a farce. Sure CCP bears its good blame on that, but still, the damage was done on them, with active purpose to damage them.
In every single other MMO, even the sandbox ones, they'd have been insta-permabanned for much, much less than this.
So stop tickling CCP's patience, because they can do whatever, wherever and whenever on all the involved players possessions and playing rights. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:17:00 -
[2975] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:after this many pages, is there anything left to say?
except. p.e.n.i.s. How many peeps did it take to make that wig?!? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:18:00 -
[2976] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Earthquake.
Shame on you to offend those who died and those who now are homeless just to show snarky on the internets. Graic Gabtar wrote: An exploit is when you magically create something out of thin air like your 100M dollars - it didn't exist.
This wealth wasn't created by magic. There was a hypothesis, a plan and then its execution that worked legally within the bounds of CCP's game mechanics. CCP have already confirmed nothing that this so called "Jewbal" did was wrong.
I don't know in which alternate universe you live, but in mine ATM are pre-loaded with physical bank notes therefore they don't create them "out of thin air" and they do exist. The using of those buttons to take out tons of money was also an hypothesis, a plan and its execution and worked legally (ATM does not get forced, just "used" in its functionality). Also, CCP in the person of their official security personnel confirmed it's an abuse. From Ab-usus that is use inappropriately. Does not mean it's wrong, it means it was used wrong. Hopefully CCP Sreegs will see your misrepresentation of his words and act accordingly on your posting rights, including for your sad joking on a disgrace happened in my country. Yours have been the best tears in this thread so far by a country mile.
You're the one bringing your crappy real life into the world of EVE. My personal feelings are that I don't rate some of your old crumbling buildings over starving African babies so just deal with it pretty girl.
I can see you are struggling with this but whether the ATM was full or empty is irrelevant and your analogy sucks accordingly.
They didn't magic an account balance, nor trick a device into spitting out endless notes. They used all the in-game mechanics available to them.
Besides outplay CCP hubris I'm still failing to see what these people did besides realize CCP fail at basis statistics.
I'm seeing a CCP staffer lash out in all sorts of ways, preempt their "investigation" and even describe the words of a colleague as good for toilet paper. Hardly encouraging a rational view.
I will make one prediction though. I doubt this "investigation" will examine CCP's own failings at acknowledging the warning signs. It will simply be dedicated to drafting new rules.
So instead of sitting here my little cupcake and making threats about me being banned why don't you get off your high horse, go outside and do something for all those ten or so people who lost garden gnomes instead of lecturing people in computer games about the inhumanity of people.
******* hypocrite. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1179
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:21:00 -
[2977] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:The very "the market will work itself out eventually in a few years" is the symbol of the immeasurable damage done to a whole video game made for the hundreds of thousands, who will be adversely affected for years (if not rolled back). It's is also a massive CCP investment loss over a feature (FW) they worked for half a year to revamp just to see it made into a farce. Sure CCP bears its good blame on that, but still, the damage was done on them, with active purpose to damage them.
In every single other MMO, even the sandbox ones, they'd have been insta-permabanned for much, much less than this.
So stop tickling CCP's patience, because they can do whatever, wherever and whenever on all the involved players possessions and playing rights.
so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable a rogue goon |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:22:00 -
[2978] - Quote
Maestro Antollare wrote:Cerebral Wolf wrote:Whats with the stupid bank analogy you all need to share? Can't you use your own special snowflake one or can you not think of your own?...
ok, sure let's say you read the patch notes for your favorite game and notice an interesting loophole in the patch notes you test and confirm your discovery in game, and use it to accumulate a significant amount of wealth the devs discover the loophole, and patch it you find the patch didn't fully correct the loophole, and adjust your plan to compensate after you're tired of using the loophole, you make a bombastic post on the forums telling the devs and other players what idiots they are for not seeing it sooner tears flow in copious amounts
Thats not an analogy is it?...thats an explanation.
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
By that logic when we get bored and blow each other up in VFK knowing we'll make a profit on insurance its an exploit.
oh come on you CANT ACTUALLY be that stupid, quit pretending
you REALLY cant tell the difference? REALLY?
How did you get past the learning curve?
[/quote]
Eve has a learning curve?
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:23:00 -
[2979] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Maestro Antollare wrote:pretend this is any other game - i find an item i can buy from an npc that sells to that same npc for more than i originally paid to buy it, use that to max out my gold, isk, w/e, then tell the devs about it
yes, the devs should have seen it, but it was obviously not intended to do what i used it for Depends on the devs. I've heard exactly what you described (well, close) happened in EQ 2 or something, and SOE flipped out and banned. On the other hand, I've heard something like it happened in LOTR Online and the devs there went "yep, our fault" and simply fixed it and moved on. CCP used to be like the latter example.
Thought CCP USED to be HTFU and HTFU here would what they say to you after you lose 5 tril to exploiting.
Cerebral Wolf wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
By that logic when we get bored and blow each other up in VFK knowing we'll make a profit on insurance its an exploit.
oh come on you CANT ACTUALLY be that stupid, quit pretending you REALLY cant tell the difference? REALLY? How did you get past the learning curve?
Eve has a learning curve? [/quote] yeah historically too:
http://www.google.com/search?q=eve+learning+curve&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lsDmT9_gAobk9ASgvNm-AQ&sqi=2&ved=0CGAQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=898
theres a whole lot of that one graph lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:31:00 -
[2980] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago Look let's look at this from the other angle OK?
99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams.
Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time.
And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.
A large amount of ISK was also destroyed.
What's the problem here, again? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:34:00 -
[2981] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago Look let's look at this from the other angle OK? 99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams. Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time. And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.A large amount of ISK was also destroyed. What's the problem here, again? [edit: * That might be the percentage of pure soap in Ivory, I'm not sure.]
Never said there WAS a problem (well not in that quote anyways) I pointed out I thin the first people to talk about market manipulation being illegal now or bannable or something (its 3 am im tired) WERE the Goons in this thread lol
As far as the whole issue goes I go with what CCP says. They made the game, they should know what they intended etc. http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Cerebral Wolf
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:34:00 -
[2982] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago Look let's look at this from the other angle OK? 99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams. Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time. And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.A large amount of ISK was also destroyed. What's the problem here, again? CCP having egg on their face i think. [edit: * That might be the percentage of pure soap in Ivory, I'm not sure.]
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:36:00 -
[2983] - Quote
Cerebral Wolf wrote:
CCP having egg on their face i think.
Yeah that, plus the bragging and rubbing their faces IN it. Straw that broke the camel's back and all imo
It is extremely funny how sperging publord you guys get over a slap on the wrist. every time http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:36:00 -
[2984] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago Look let's look at this from the other angle OK? 99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams. Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time. And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.A large amount of ISK was also destroyed. What's the problem here, again? [edit: * That might be the percentage of pure soap in Ivory, I'm not sure.] Never said there WAS a problem (well not in that quote anyways) I pointed out I thin the first people to talk about market manipulation being illegal now or bannable or something (its 3 am im tired) WERE the Goons in this thread lol As far as the whole issue goes I go with what CCP says. They made the game, they should know what they intended etc. Fair enough. I just thought that this frame of reference at least bore mentioning. After all, it's true.
These legions of people were actual happy Goonswarm customers. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Betrinna Cantis
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:37:00 -
[2985] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote: Yeah, but I've found goons and test in World of Tanks as well. They likey their tank pew pew. WoT is awesome. I kill everyone Goon or no Goon. Nice break from the Bulls#!t here sometimes... Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
492
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:38:00 -
[2986] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago Look let's look at this from the other angle OK? 99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams. Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time. And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.A large amount of ISK was also destroyed. What's the problem here, again?
Ahem. While I appreciate your attempts to defend us with this analogy, I find it distasteful as I was formerly the largest contract dealer of 0.0 faction goods in Eve, and none of my contracts for faction goods were scams. How dare you impunge my honour, good sir! . |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:40:00 -
[2987] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:actual happy Goonswarm customers.
idiot and their money are soon parted
well more specifically it should be idiots that WILL soon be parted with their money but you know what they did wrong on this? EXACTLY what you said.
Im betting HAD they scammed the **** out of those marks, the marks would have effectively gone "eh, its Goons whatta you expect" instead of "rabblerabblerabble"
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:43:00 -
[2988] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago Look let's look at this from the other angle OK? 99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams. Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time. And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.A large amount of ISK was also destroyed. What's the problem here, again? Ahem. While I appreciate your attempts to defend us with this analogy, I find it distasteful as I was formerly the largest contract dealer of 0.0 faction goods in Eve, and none of my contracts for faction goods were scams. How dare you impunge my honour, good sir! I apologize, but you must admit your fellow...ahem...Goon competitors had a lower cost of doing business, even if it meant their...um...volume...was um...slightly lower than yours. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:44:00 -
[2989] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Your comparison is flawed. The "Jewbal" built the economic equivalent of a warp drive with the economic equivalent of tinker toys.
That's why everybody's so mad.
Economic warp fields shouldn't be possible with Viking-made formulae. Icelandic Calculus is champion.
No everybody are not so mad at all.
This is my post in this very thread: "BRAVO GOONS!".
But now that they proved their point and shown CCP they outplayed them, look at the thing for what it is (an abuse) and undo the damage done on the game. They got their "medal" and media e-fame, along with the privilege for not being banned that's all the prize they should keep. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:49:00 -
[2990] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Your comparison is flawed. The "Jewbal" built the economic equivalent of a warp drive with the economic equivalent of tinker toys.
That's why everybody's so mad.
Economic warp fields shouldn't be possible with Viking-made formulae. Icelandic Calculus is champion. No everybody are not so mad at all. This is my post in this very thread: "BRAVO GOONS!". But now that they proved their point and shown CCP they outplayed them, look at the thing for what it is (an abuse) and undo the damage done on the game. They got their "medal" and media e-fame, along with the privilege for not being banned that's all the prize they should keep. I want you to tell me who, exactly, was abused here. Who didn't have the same opportunity to leverage advertised mechanics?
To be abuse it has to be an unfair advantage. The mechanic was advertised.
Was it the people who got the cheaper faction modules? Were they abused?
Was it Beta Testers who commented to CCP about the vulnerability of the system as-developed?
What was abused here? I can't see anything that wasn't "working as intended" if we're being totally honest about it.
The system was designed to do what it did. When applied, the system worked as predicted by its design parameters.
This was no exploit. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:49:00 -
[2991] - Quote
corestwo wrote: Depends on the devs. I've heard exactly what you described (well, close) happened in EQ 2 or something, and SOE flipped out and banned. On the other hand, I've heard something like it happened in LOTR Online and the devs there went "yep, our fault" and simply fixed it and moved on.
CCP are indeed saying "yep, our fault" and are simply fixing it and moving on. I still see you posting so they did not ban hammer you or anything, just undoing the game damage.
corestwo wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: You can build a skyscraper with perfect sub-components, perfect materials, in the best place and... bork the structural calculations so it crumbles after 2 weeks. Individual parts worked exactly as intended but now it's a pile of dirt.
I know what you're trying to say, mostly because you've said it again and again, but...your example sucks, because if you "bork the structural calculations" then individual parts were not, in fact, working as intended.
Yes they were individually working as intended, it's just the architect who fat fingered his calculator and did not type a zero so that one of the perfect individual parts put in there were not sufficient to keep the building up. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:57:00 -
[2992] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Yours have been the best tears in this thread so far by a country mile.
What a tool we got here, eh?
Graic Gabtar wrote: You're the one bringing your crappy real life into the world of EVE. My personal feelings are that I don't rate some of your old crumbling buildings over starving African babies so just deal with it pretty girl.
It just happens that people actually lived in these buildings and died. And in the next quakes, workers who went to work in factories (some warehouses were 3 years old) had the building crash on them and kill them as well.
Graic Gabtar wrote: So instead of sitting here my little cupcake and making threats about me being banned why don't you get off your high horse, go outside and do something for all those ten or so people who lost garden gnomes instead of lecturing people in computer games about the inhumanity of people.
******* hypocrite.
I have gone to do something for those more than ten people who DIED but I am not going to fill the media about it. So keep the hypocrite and the rest of your offensive drivel for yourself. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 07:58:00 -
[2993] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:corestwo wrote: Depends on the devs. I've heard exactly what you described (well, close) happened in EQ 2 or something, and SOE flipped out and banned. On the other hand, I've heard something like it happened in LOTR Online and the devs there went "yep, our fault" and simply fixed it and moved on.
CCP are indeed saying "yep, our fault" and are simply fixing it and moving on. I still see you posting so they did not ban hammer you or anything, just undoing the game damage. corestwo wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: You can build a skyscraper with perfect sub-components, perfect materials, in the best place and... bork the structural calculations so it crumbles after 2 weeks. Individual parts worked exactly as intended but now it's a pile of dirt.
I know what you're trying to say, mostly because you've said it again and again, but...your example sucks, because if you "bork the structural calculations" then individual parts were not, in fact, working as intended. Yes they were individually working as intended, it's just the architect who fat fingered his calculator and did not type a zero so that one of the perfect individual parts put in there were not sufficient to keep the building up. Vaerah, they worked correctly not just taken separately, but exactly within deisgn parameters when combined, as well.
I can't stress this enough: This only worked because the "Jewbal" developed a model based explicitly on CCP's design parameters precisely as stated in various press releases. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Haikato Saraki
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:00:00 -
[2994] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
this has been stated and restated several times in this threadanaught but all it really boils down to is; "we weren't as evil as we could have been." ...which as far as legal defences go is only slightly better than "the b!tch had it coming."
If it had been Jade instead of you who had found and abused this, would you seriously try to tell me you would be lobbying as hard for them to keep the assets gained from this exploit? Honestly, seems to me that the only reason the involved "jewbal" haven't been banned is BECAUSE they brought it to CCP's attention. I sincerely hope that you DO try to keep it hush-hush the next time you find something like this because when CCP uncovers that future exploit your gona lose a lot more than you did today.
epic exploit was epic, but did you really expect to crash the LP markets with an exploit and get away with it? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:02:00 -
[2995] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable
I would not, I actually applaud at their genius.
But the game companies usually don't like this kind of genius played on their products, so - regardless of me or you liking it or not, they go very heavy handed.
Point in case, in WAR in the last months there have been:
- Mass people banning because they discovered they could get an health buff thru a pet by going in certain zones. Developers used a flawed formula... rings you something similar?
- Mass people perma banning with no recourse allowed because they discovered they could increase their stats a lot by clicking on certain NPCs, which applied a formula that could be gamed.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:03:00 -
[2996] - Quote
Haikato Saraki wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. this has been stated and restated several times in this threadanaught but all it really boils down to is; "we weren't as evil as we could have been." ...which as far as legal defences go is only slightly better than "the b!tch had it coming." If it had been Jade instead of you who had found and abused this, would you seriously try to tell me you would be lobbying as hard for them to keep the assets gained from this exploit? Honestly, seems to me that the only reason the involved "jewbal" haven't been banned is BECAUSE they brought it to CCP's attention. I sincerely hope that you DO try to keep it hush-hush the next time you find something like this because when CCP uncovers that future exploit your gona lose a lot more than you did today. epic exploit was epic, but did you really expect to crash the LP markets with an exploit and get away with it? Please demonstrate how this was an exploit when CCP hasn't even completed their explanation. That's a mighty big strawman you built there. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:09:00 -
[2997] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: I want you to tell me who, exactly, was abused here. Who didn't have the same opportunity to leverage advertised mechanics?
To be abuse it has to be an unfair advantage. The mechanic was advertised.
I copied the word that a CCP employee officially used in this thread. If you don't like he wrote abuse, then feel free to unsub.
Darth Gustav wrote: The system was designed to do what it did. When applied, the system worked as predicted by its design parameters.
This was no exploit.
That's why said CCP employee said "abuse" and not "exploit". And this is the only reason why the involved players have not been banned.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:12:00 -
[2998] - Quote
so i have this text book i'm using for a University degree - in it it has a definition of an exploit.
blah blah.... or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is either inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. .... blah blah.
page 10 chapter 1 Principles of Information Security by, Michael E. Whitman & Herbert J. Mattord
Just thought i'd share that with the thread. Not sure if its relevant. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
897
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:13:00 -
[2999] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: I want you to tell me who, exactly, was abused here. Who didn't have the same opportunity to leverage advertised mechanics?
To be abuse it has to be an unfair advantage. The mechanic was advertised.
I copied the word that a CCP employee officially used in this thread. If you don't like he wrote abuse, then feel free to unsub. Darth Gustav wrote: The system was designed to do what it did. When applied, the system worked as predicted by its design parameters.
This was no exploit.
That's why said CCP employee said "abuse" and not "exploit". And this is the only reason why the involved players have not been banned. I suppose in CCP's house they have the right to have a "We're never wrong." policy.
We'll see how that goes for them on this.
As usual, I'll be watching what they do, not what they say. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:14:00 -
[3000] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:corestwo wrote: Depends on the devs. I've heard exactly what you described (well, close) happened in EQ 2 or something, and SOE flipped out and banned. On the other hand, I've heard something like it happened in LOTR Online and the devs there went "yep, our fault" and simply fixed it and moved on.
CCP are indeed saying "yep, our fault" and are simply fixing it and moving on. I still see you posting so they did not ban hammer you or anything, just undoing the game damage. Sorry, I left out the part where the devs of LOTR Online who went "yep, our fault" let the players who discovered the legitimate but unintended interaction keep the money they made from it. Important distinction, really.
You also left out the part where EvE is completely reliant on its player driven economy and it's a competitive game instead of a toy park. In particular, you also affected FW, a competitive feature in a competitive PvP game.
corestwo wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Yes they were individually working as intended, it's just the architect who fat fingered his calculator and did not type a zero so that one of the perfect individual parts put in there were not sufficient to keep the building up.
If the one of the perfect individual parts wasn't sufficient to keep the building up, then by definition it isn't actually anywhere near perfect and is in fact quite flawed, much like your analogy.
If the one of the perfect LP formulas wasn't sufficient to keep the market up, then by definition it isn't actually anywhere near perfect and is in fact quite flawed, much like your rebuttal. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:15:00 -
[3001] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:so i have this text book i'm using for a University degree - in it it has a definition of an exploit.
blah blah.... or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is either inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. .... blah blah.
page 10 chapter 1 Principles of Information Security by, Michael E. Whitman & Herbert J. Mattord
Just thought i'd share that with the thread. Not sure if its relevant. This was not taking advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, though. It was just maths and nothing broke.
Bad design is not vulnerability. It's just bad design. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:15:00 -
[3002] - Quote
How cute. You don't even understand what I'm saying. Keep posting please.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:It just happens that people actually lived in these buildings and died. And in the next quakes, workers who went to work in factories (some warehouses were 3 years old) had the building crash on them and kill them as well. So... You're arguing your one donkey village is full of idiots and Darwin has thinned the herd? You can argue that all you like but as I said, I don't rate this as misery to strut all over the EVE forums about.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I have gone to do something for those more than ten people who DIED but I am not going to fill the media about it. Forum whoring for Jesus? I can tell you are really putting the big ones in here. You feeding the homeless with "Likes"?
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:So keep the hypocrite and the rest of your offensive drivel for yourself. So first you hope people get banned, now you are telling people what they can and can't post.
I must say, you've got a bit of an overblown sense on self-entitlement for some forum wanker in some crap village in need of a few copies of "Earthquakes for Dummies" to be honest. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:20:00 -
[3003] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: I can't stress this enough: This only worked because the "Jewbal" developed a model based explicitly on CCP's design parameters precisely as stated in various press releases.
No, because the most basic design parameter for a moving average is to smooth fluctuations, while it has been subverted to amplify them. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:22:00 -
[3004] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: I can't stress this enough: This only worked because the "Jewbal" developed a model based explicitly on CCP's design parameters precisely as stated in various press releases.
No, because the most basic design parameter for a moving average is to smooth fluctuations, while it has been subverted to amplify them. By poor design, not by exploitation. This did not require any exception cases to occur and anybody could have utilized it, though it's doubtful many had the resources and the mental faculty to pull this off. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:23:00 -
[3005] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:so i have this text book i'm using for a University degree - in it it has a definition of an exploit.
blah blah.... or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is either inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. .... blah blah.
page 10 chapter 1 Principles of Information Security by, Michael E. Whitman & Herbert J. Mattord
Just thought i'd share that with the thread. Not sure if its relevant. This was not taking advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, though. It was just maths and nothing broke. Bad design is not vulnerability. It's just bad design.
So you think using maths to create "free" LP would not break the system (EVE economy) if it was left as it was?
In other words - you think if nothing had changed that this would not leave the system vulnerable.
The system was flawed, had a vulnerability to abuse - it was abused, therefore, it was exploited.
But keep buzzing, maybe if you say it enough times you will brainwash CCP into believing you. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:26:00 -
[3006] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:so i have this text book i'm using for a University degree - in it it has a definition of an exploit.
blah blah.... or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is either inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. .... blah blah.
page 10 chapter 1 Principles of Information Security by, Michael E. Whitman & Herbert J. Mattord
Just thought i'd share that with the thread. Not sure if its relevant. This was not taking advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, though. It was just maths and nothing broke. Bad design is not vulnerability. It's just bad design. So you think using maths to create "free" LP would not break the system (EVE economy) if it was left as it was? In other words - you think if nothing had changed that this would not leave the system vulnerable. The system was flawed, had a vulnerability to abuse - it was abused, therefore, it was exploited. But keep buzzing, maybe if you say it enough times you will brainwash CCP into believing you. Those LP cost literally dozens of ISK per unit. That is far from free.
When there is a cost incurred, how is a player to inherently know it's out of whack?
What other store doesn't honor their price labels?
How's this for buzz? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:27:00 -
[3007] - Quote
not sure what's thicker in there, the tears or the envy. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:28:00 -
[3008] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:So... You're arguing your one donkey village is full of idiots and Darwin has thinned the herd? You can argue that all you like but as I said, I don't rate this as misery to strut all over the EVE forums about.
You are the very kind of internet anonymous specimen who can't see how it's different using the same smack in game vs using it on victims of a RL disaster.
What goes around, turns around, be glad yourself that Darwin has not put his gaze on you yet.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:30:00 -
[3009] - Quote
Yeh, maybe we should count the amount of posts in this thread.
a percentage of Goon+ goon supporter posts to others posts.
See how deep that pool of tears actually is. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:32:00 -
[3010] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: I can't stress this enough: This only worked because the "Jewbal" developed a model based explicitly on CCP's design parameters precisely as stated in various press releases.
No, because the most basic design parameter for a moving average is to smooth fluctuations, while it has been subverted to amplify them. By poor design, not by exploitation.
This difference matters, because it's why the players did not get banned.
But be it poor design or exploitation, the mechanic has been subverted and this is why they roll back the gains.
Anyway don't take my words, take CCP's ones and see how much you'll change their opinion. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:33:00 -
[3011] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: I can't stress this enough: This only worked because the "Jewbal" developed a model based explicitly on CCP's design parameters precisely as stated in various press releases.
No, because the most basic design parameter for a moving average is to smooth fluctuations, while it has been subverted to amplify them. By poor design, not by exploitation. This difference matters, because it's why the players did not get banned. But be it poor design or exploitation, the mechanic has been subverted and this is why they roll back the gains. You call this perfect and predicted functionality subversion.
I do not think it means what you think it means. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:35:00 -
[3012] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Yeh, maybe we should count the amount of threads.
a percentage of Goon+ goon supporter posts to others posts.
See how deep that pool of tears actually is.
it really has nothing to do with "supporting goons" at all.
the entire point is whether they were within the limits of the sandbox or not. to me, they were. ccp added the formula to reward lp on a sliding scale based on the isk damage inflicted upon an enemy when their ship went pop. ok, manipulating the average price on an item was a bit close to the line, but isn't that what people sit in jita and do all day every day anyway?
the only real difference between what goons did, and what your average player does on a daily basis is scale, and scale is the only thing that's caused an issue here. at least, as far as i can tell. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:37:00 -
[3013] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Yeh, maybe we should count the amount of posts in this thread.
a percentage of Goon+ goon supporter posts to others posts.
See how deep that pool of tears actually is.
I have this textbook. It clearly shows that the multiplicative and divisive properties of equality are firmly intact.
Regardless of what the values are in the numerator or denominator, the properties continue to work. The obvious exception is the case of division by zero, which this was not.
It is not the "Jewbal's" fault these absolutes are not observed in Iceland.
Maybe I can send them my math book.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:42:00 -
[3014] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:Yeh, maybe we should count the amount of threads.
a percentage of Goon+ goon supporter posts to others posts.
See how deep that pool of tears actually is. it really has nothing to do with "supporting goons" at all. the entire point is whether they were within the limits of the sandbox or not. to me, they were. ccp added the formula to reward lp on a sliding scale based on the isk damage inflicted upon an enemy when their ship went pop. ok, manipulating the average price on an item was a bit close to the line, but isn't that what people sit in jita and do all day every day anyway? the only real difference between what goons did, and what your average player does on a daily basis is scale, and scale is the only thing that's caused an issue here. at least, as far as i can tell.
I actually agree with you to a certain degree, and think what these guys did is impressive and could really only be done effectively with massive amounts of collateral, however, the fact is they exploited a known vulnerability in a system and should get punished.
I personally think that removing any assets and ISK they made from this venture, leaving the offenders out of pocket the amount that they investeted is enough of a punishment. But they did exploit the system, and CCP's own rules state that anyone exploiting the system will be subject to potential bans. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1427
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:44:00 -
[3015] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:You call this perfect and predicted functionality subversion. I do not think it means what you think it means.
What *I* think about it does not matter, because if it mattered:
- T20 => everybody involved insta-perma banned. - POS dupe => everybody involved insta-perma banned. - Various T2 "scandals" => everybody involved insta-perma banned. - PI magic => everybody involved insta-perma banned. - Pax Amarria => everybody involved insta-perma banned after it got known, and reversed any transaction happened before that (but no ban). - Unprobable T3 and nano ships and titans magic => fast formulas change to make it impossible, not waiting for months.
Only places where a developer should be "patient" and really dig a lot are those where it's impossible to have mathematical certainty something happened or not, i.e. when inference and heuristics flag something as suspicious but not sure.
But since what I think does not matter, then I have to look at what CCP believes. As owners of the game and it's entire assets and entire pool of characters they are entitled to do whatever they want.
Entitlement is what I see all over this thread, and not just by CCP. No, the players are not entitled to keep anything and are not even entitled to be left able to play if the game stakeholders decide so. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
50
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:47:00 -
[3016] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:Dave stark wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:Yeh, maybe we should count the amount of threads.
a percentage of Goon+ goon supporter posts to others posts.
See how deep that pool of tears actually is. it really has nothing to do with "supporting goons" at all. the entire point is whether they were within the limits of the sandbox or not. to me, they were. ccp added the formula to reward lp on a sliding scale based on the isk damage inflicted upon an enemy when their ship went pop. ok, manipulating the average price on an item was a bit close to the line, but isn't that what people sit in jita and do all day every day anyway? the only real difference between what goons did, and what your average player does on a daily basis is scale, and scale is the only thing that's caused an issue here. at least, as far as i can tell. I actually agree with you to a certain degree, and think what these guys did is impressive and could really only be done effectively with massive amounts of collateral, however, the fact is they exploited a known vulnerability in a system and should get punished. I personally think that removing any assets and ISK the made from this venture, leaving the offenders out of pocket the amount that they investeted is enough of a punishment. But they did exploit the system, and CCP's own rules state that anyone exploiting the system will be subject to potential bans.
and it could (and has been, repeatedly) argued that if ccp didn't want this to happen it shouldn't have left sisi.
goons say they warned ccp, ccp released it anyway.
it means either ccp didn't know [and goons lie] and didn't test it enough, or ccp did know [ccp lies] and didn't care. but hey we're going around in circles beating a dead horse, again. all we can really do is wait for monday's ccp dev blog/post on here/smoke signal/telegram |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:49:00 -
[3017] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:Dave stark wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:Yeh, maybe we should count the amount of threads.
a percentage of Goon+ goon supporter posts to others posts.
See how deep that pool of tears actually is. it really has nothing to do with "supporting goons" at all. the entire point is whether they were within the limits of the sandbox or not. to me, they were. ccp added the formula to reward lp on a sliding scale based on the isk damage inflicted upon an enemy when their ship went pop. ok, manipulating the average price on an item was a bit close to the line, but isn't that what people sit in jita and do all day every day anyway? the only real difference between what goons did, and what your average player does on a daily basis is scale, and scale is the only thing that's caused an issue here. at least, as far as i can tell. I actually agree with you to a certain degree, and think what these guys did is impressive and could really only be done effectively with massive amounts of collateral, however, the fact is they exploited a known vulnerability in a system and should get punished. I personally think that removing any assets and ISK the made from this venture, leaving the offenders out of pocket the amount that they investeted is enough of a punishment. But they did exploit the system, and CCP's own rules state that anyone exploiting the system will be subject to potential bans. and it could (and has been, repeatedly) argued that if ccp didn't want this to happen it shouldn't have left sisi. goons say they warned ccp, ccp released it anyway. it means either ccp didn't know [and goons lie] and didn't test it enough, or ccp did know [ccp lies] and didn't care. but hey we're going around in circles beating a dead horse, again. all we can really do is wait for monday's ccp dev blog/post on here/smoke signal/telegram
Good point. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:49:00 -
[3018] - Quote
Agreed (flogging dead horses makes the meat more tender though), will be very interesting to see CCP's response to this whole mess. Respect will be both earnt and lost whatever they do. Who's respect do they value the most? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1428
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:52:00 -
[3019] - Quote
Dave stark wrote: it means either ccp didn't know [and goons lie] and didn't test it enough, or ccp did know [ccp lies] and didn't care. but hey we're going around in circles beating a dead horse, again. all we can really do is wait for monday's ccp dev blog/post on here/smoke signal/telegram
Unlike others, I don't want to spread rumors. But for what I can recall from past posts, CCP did see the potential for a vulnerability but it was too late to take a decision like they did for this latest patch (i.e. delay it for 1 week to squash the last minute bugs) so they had to push it out anyway. The true mistake on CCP part in this case, would be to under-stimate how emergent players would immediately use the vulnerability at their advantage on huge scale. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:57:00 -
[3020] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote: it means either ccp didn't know [and goons lie] and didn't test it enough, or ccp did know [ccp lies] and didn't care. but hey we're going around in circles beating a dead horse, again. all we can really do is wait for monday's ccp dev blog/post on here/smoke signal/telegram
Unlike others, I don't want to spread rumors. But for what I can recall from past posts, CCP did see the potential for a vulnerability but it was too late to take a decision like they did for this latest patch (i.e. delay it for 1 week to squash the last minute bugs) so they had to push it out anyway. The true mistake on CCP part in this case, would be to under-stimate how emergent players would immediately use the vulnerability at their advantage on huge scale. I won't spread rumors. I'll state facts.
Here's one:
CCP Soundwave hoped this "feature" would fail miserably.
Here's another one:
CCP Soundwave got what he hoped for. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 08:58:00 -
[3021] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Those LP cost literally dozens of ISK per unit. That is far from free. When there is a cost incurred, how is a player to inherently know it's out of whack? What other store doesn't honor their price labels? How's this for buzz?
Guy, even the OP knew it was broke/out of whack/plain goofy and game breaking, which is why he was tweeting CCP in the first place, leading to all this terrible posting.
He wrongly thought it'd be cool for him to break it just a "little bit" for his own gain. I guess that's why he's known, even amongst your own rank, as a sociopath.
Take off your Goon goggles for a second and try and look at this objectively.
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:02:00 -
[3022] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote: it means either ccp didn't know [and goons lie] and didn't test it enough, or ccp did know [ccp lies] and didn't care. but hey we're going around in circles beating a dead horse, again. all we can really do is wait for monday's ccp dev blog/post on here/smoke signal/telegram
Unlike others, I don't want to spread rumors. But for what I can recall from past posts, CCP did see the potential for a vulnerability but it was too late to take a decision like they did for this latest patch (i.e. delay it for 1 week to squash the last minute bugs) so they had to push it out anyway. The true mistake on CCP part in this case, would be to under-stimate how emergent players would immediately use the vulnerability at their advantage on huge scale. I won't spread rumors. I'll state facts. Here's one: CCP Soundwave hoped this "feature" would fail miserably. Here's another one: CCP Soundwave got what he hoped for.
haha yes, i saw that interview too.
be careful what you wish for. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:04:00 -
[3023] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Those LP cost literally dozens of ISK per unit. That is far from free. When there is a cost incurred, how is a player to inherently know it's out of whack? What other store doesn't honor their price labels? How's this for buzz? Guy, even the OP knew it was broke/out of whack/plain goofy and game breaking, which is why he was tweeting CCP in the first place, leading to all this terrible posting. He wrongly thought it'd be cool for him to break it just a "little bit" for his own gain. I guess that's why he's known, even amongst your own rank, as a sociopath. Take off your Goon goggles for a second and try and look at this objectively. What he knew is that CCP put it in aware that it worked the way it was designed to work and that CCP quite mistakenly thought it could/would stand on its own merit.
So he tried it out, it worked so well that he then told CCP how broke it was.
There's a difference. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:06:00 -
[3024] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable
I would not, I actually applaud at their genius. But the game companies usually don't like this kind of genius played on their products, so - regardless of me or you liking it or not, they go very heavy handed. Point in case, in WAR in the last months there have been: - Mass people banning because they discovered they could get an health buff thru a pet by going in certain zones. Developers used a flawed formula... rings you something similar? - Mass people perma banning with no recourse allowed because they discovered they could increase their stats a lot by clicking on certain NPCs, which applied a formula that could be gamed. The comparison is wrong.
In both the cases you quoted, the players were performing an action that had an unexpected and unwanted result, disconnected from the game's design.
Here, the players did what they were supposed to do. They enroled in militia, they blew ships up, they gained LP for it. Then they figured how that LP was calculated, and made sure it would be as high as possible.
Unless the function calculating ship cargo value on the exchange price SOMEHOW wrote itself during the development, SOMEONE in CCP thought "Well, let's just calculate the average price at which it was exchanged.", and, apparently, nobody cared about that part, or nobody thought "hey, there are a fuckton of people running margin trading scams by labelling useless items higher than what they're worth. This may mean that average market prices is not representative of the item value".
A similar thing may have happened if someone in a FW was running such a scam, hauling a hundred of items he buys 1m and sell 1b, got blown up and the killer received LP based on 100*500m. He, too, would have received a huge amount of isk. And it wouldnt have been "exploiting a bug". |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
898
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:08:00 -
[3025] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable
I would not, I actually applaud at their genius. But the game companies usually don't like this kind of genius played on their products, so - regardless of me or you liking it or not, they go very heavy handed. Point in case, in WAR in the last months there have been: - Mass people banning because they discovered they could get an health buff thru a pet by going in certain zones. Developers used a flawed formula... rings you something similar? - Mass people perma banning with no recourse allowed because they discovered they could increase their stats a lot by clicking on certain NPCs, which applied a formula that could be gamed. The comparison is wrong. In both the cases you quoted, the players were performing an action that had an unexpected and unwanted result, disconnected from the game's design. Here, the players did what they were supposed to do. They enroled in militia, they blew ships up, they gained LP for it. Then they figured how that LP was calculated, and made sure it would be as high as possible. Unless the function calculating ship cargo value on the exchange price SOMEHOW wrote itself during the development, SOMEONE in CCP thought "Well, let's just calculate the average price at which it was exchanged.", and, apparently, nobody cared about that part, or nobody thought "hey, there are a fuckton of people running margin trading scams by labelling useless items higher than what they're worth. This may mean that average market prices is not representative of the item value". A similar thing may have happened if someone in a FW was running such a scam, hauling a hundred of items he buys 1m and sell 1b, got blown up and the killer received LP based on 100*500m. He, too, would have received a huge amount of isk. And it wouldnt have been "exploiting a bug". This post is absolutely brilliant.
Thank you for the /thread. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:15:00 -
[3026] - Quote
..........blah, blah
A similar thing may have happened if someone in a FW was running such a scam, hauling a hundred of items he buys 1m and sell 1b, got blown up and the killer received LP based on 100*500m. He, too, would have received a huge amount of isk. And it wouldnt have been "exploiting a bug". [/quote wrote: This post is absolutely brilliant.
Thank you for the /thread.
no it would not have been exploiting a bug, since he had no knowledge the bug existed. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1428
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:19:00 -
[3027] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable
I would not, I actually applaud at their genius. But the game companies usually don't like this kind of genius played on their products, so - regardless of me or you liking it or not, they go very heavy handed. Point in case, in WAR in the last months there have been: - Mass people banning because they discovered they could get an health buff thru a pet by going in certain zones. Developers used a flawed formula... rings you something similar? - Mass people perma banning with no recourse allowed because they discovered they could increase their stats a lot by clicking on certain NPCs, which applied a formula that could be gamed. The comparison is wrong. In both the cases you quoted, the players were performing an action that had an unexpected and unwanted result, disconnected from the game's design.
In both the cases I quoted they were using an action that is valid for the whole rest of the game: whole categories of buffs stack. They just used the intended game mechanics to stack a lot of buffs, more than the developers thought they'd do. Basically the developers should have capped the amount of those buffs but they did not put such safeguard in their formula.
How's this different than this EvE instance? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:24:00 -
[3028] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable
I would not, I actually applaud at their genius. But the game companies usually don't like this kind of genius played on their products, so - regardless of me or you liking it or not, they go very heavy handed. Point in case, in WAR in the last months there have been: - Mass people banning because they discovered they could get an health buff thru a pet by going in certain zones. Developers used a flawed formula... rings you something similar? - Mass people perma banning with no recourse allowed because they discovered they could increase their stats a lot by clicking on certain NPCs, which applied a formula that could be gamed. The comparison is wrong. In both the cases you quoted, the players were performing an action that had an unexpected and unwanted result, disconnected from the game's design. Here, the players did what they were supposed to do. They enroled in militia, they blew ships up, they gained LP for it. Then they figured how that LP was calculated, and made sure it would be as high as possible. Unless the function calculating ship cargo value on the exchange price SOMEHOW wrote itself during the development, SOMEONE in CCP thought "Well, let's just calculate the average price at which it was exchanged.", and, apparently, nobody cared about that part, or nobody thought "hey, there are a fuckton of people running margin trading scams by labelling useless items higher than what they're worth. This may mean that average market prices is not representative of the item value". A similar thing may have happened if someone in a FW was running such a scam, hauling a hundred of items he buys 1m and sell 1b, got blown up and the killer received LP based on 100*500m. He, too, would have received a huge amount of isk. And it wouldnt have been "exploiting a bug".
No, he didn't just "enroll in a militia and blow ships up". He enrolled in ALL militia's and blew up his own ships and gained LP for it.
And to me, that's where the rub is. I'm sure there are no rules against it, but I really think it goes against why Faction Wars was added.
How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up? And what do you think both group leaders would say if they knew you were doing something as stupid as that (aside for the whole espionage aspect.. but of course, the OP wasn't doing anything of that nature) just to throw the killboard stats off. That's lame no matter how you slice it.
Faction Wars wasn't added so someone could game the system. I'd be all in favor of adding restrictions for Faction Wars not allowing you to put alts into every faction. Faction Wars is a goofy concept in general in EvE. RVB is what Factions Wars should be. Player owned and operated. |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:29:00 -
[3029] - Quote
I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....
:( |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:33:00 -
[3030] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....
:(
Yeah, what type of wars have you seen that had anything closely resembling that happening. Killing yourself in roll playing doesn't really make sense unless you're roll playing an Emo teenager.... ohhhh, now it all make sense how the OP came up with this! |
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:33:00 -
[3031] - Quote
Elysium Foxx wrote:I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....
:(
i think it's very much alive, actually.
this game brings out the most sly, underhand, and interesting parts of a person's character. between the anonymity of the internet, and the game's design almost rewarding ******* people over it lets you be that devious person you probably can't be in the real world. |
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:35:00 -
[3032] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....
:( i think it's very much alive, actually. this game brings out the most sly, underhand, and interesting parts of a person's character. between the anonymity of the internet, and the game's design almost rewarding ******* people over it lets you be that devious person you probably can't be in the real world.
haha, yeh i guess you could spin it that way. : )
well played |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:38:00 -
[3033] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Elysium Foxx wrote:I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....
:( i think it's very much alive, actually. this game brings out the most sly, underhand, and interesting parts of a person's character. between the anonymity of the internet, and the game's design almost rewarding ******* people over it lets you be that devious person you probably can't be in the real world.
And I'm all for ******* over PEOPLE, but in this case it was the NPC controlled Factions that were ****** over.
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1179
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:42:00 -
[3034] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up?
Spies a rogue goon |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:47:00 -
[3035] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:What goes around, turns around, be glad yourself that Darwin has not put his gaze on you yet.
Fascinating.
So far in this thread you have told me you are orchestrating some scheme to have me banned, you have told me what I am and am not allowed to post and now you are hoping that I die in real life.
All over your little forum ego.
Very interesting. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:48:00 -
[3036] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up? Spies
I guess you missed this part:
(aside for the whole espionage aspect.. but of course, the OP wasn't doing anything of that nature)
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1179
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:56:00 -
[3037] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up? Spies I guess you missed this part: (aside for the whole espionage aspect.. but of course, the OP wasn't doing anything of that nature)
sorry, I skim through alt posts a rogue goon |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1572
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 10:15:00 -
[3038] - Quote
*waiting for the next page to read* Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Malacath Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 10:18:00 -
[3039] - Quote
Providing next page to read. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
311
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 10:27:00 -
[3040] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up? Spies I guess you missed this part: (aside for the whole espionage aspect.. but of course, the OP wasn't doing anything of that nature)
Prencleeve alt spoted !!
"By Jun...erm, (/toss) by August!!" brb |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1428
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 10:42:00 -
[3041] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:What goes around, turns around, be glad yourself that Darwin has not put his gaze on you yet.
Fascinating. So far in this thread you have told me you are orchestrating some scheme to have me banned, you have told me what I am and am not allowed to post and now you are hoping that I die in real life. All over your little forum ego. Very interesting.
No, very made out of your butt, like your other posts. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
319
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 10:51:00 -
[3042] - Quote
I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626
the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned.
As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts."
So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair.
So at least the perpetrators know what to expect.
but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
918
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 10:53:00 -
[3043] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:have toons in CFC Nobody. :catstare: |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:00:00 -
[3044] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:No, very made out of your butt, like your other posts. Wow. It looks like our precious snowflake has revealed their true form.
Barely coherent, petty school yard insults in the form of a disturbing fascination with the contents of my colon.
I didn't realise that distilling your terrible posting to the basic facts and presenting it would be such an earth shattering experience for you.
Live and learn I guess sexy lady. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Lord Zim
918
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:01:00 -
[3045] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned. As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts." So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair. So at least the perpetrators know what to expect. but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading This has been brought up multiple times, and it's not applicable as it was an actual software defect in EVE. It was brought to CCP's attention multiple times over a few years until something made CCP finally actually take notice (presumably, the exploit became so widely used it was actually noticeable in some graph or something).
What aryth etc did was not utilize a software defect, everything was legal according to game mechanics. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
319
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:04:00 -
[3046] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned. As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts." So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair. So at least the perpetrators know what to expect. but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading This has been brought up multiple times, and it's not applicable as it was an actual software defect in EVE. It was brought to CCP's attention multiple times over a few years until something made CCP finally actually take notice (presumably, the exploit became so widely used it was actually noticeable in some graph or something). What aryth etc did was not utilize a software defect, everything was legal according to game mechanics. because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits". CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1572
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:06:00 -
[3047] - Quote
Wow this thread got cleared of posts pretty heavily. Should be at page 152 already.
Thanks for keeping it open, though ! :) Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:08:00 -
[3048] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned. As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts." So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair. So at least the perpetrators know what to expect. but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading From that article and the critical point in this current discussion:Quote:Free stuff has entered the system. Nothing free entered the system in this market manipulation.
CCP dropped the ball pure and simple. CCP Screegs can carry on all he likes about it in the many posts in this thread but it doesn't change the fact they messed up the FW changes - badly. And how you take stuff off people who have done nothing but master the situation presented before them is beyond me. The problem for CCP is the scale. If it was 5 billion this just would have been patched.
CCP were just totally outplayed when they have an immense advantage and they don't like it. You can tell from the judgemental tone in CCP Screegs first post in this thread including the predetermined outcome. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
319
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:14:00 -
[3049] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:]Nothing free entered the system in this market manipulation.
CCP dropped the ball pure and simple. CCP Screegs can carry on all he likes about it in the many posts in this thread but it doesn't change the fact they messed up the FW changes - badly. And how you take stuff off people who have done nothing but master the situation presented before them is beyond me. The problem for CCP is the scale. If it was 5 billion this just would have been patched.
CCP were just totally outplayed when they have an immense advantage and they don't like it. You can tell from the judgemental tone in CCP Screegs first post in this thread including the predetermined outcome.
As the Op stated "InfernoGÇÖs big design mistake was that it was released with a literal currency fountain, very nearly without limit. Unbeknownst to themselves, CCP had accidentally delved into the world of forex, providing a way to exchange one currency (isk) for another (LP) with only a few checks and balances built into the system."
So although it wasn't free per say, it was profitable. The POS exploit wasn't free either you had to buy and set up the POS to get the free stuff. Just as you had to purchase ships ect.. to profit from this exploit. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
918
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:17:00 -
[3050] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits". CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much. Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing. |
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:21:00 -
[3051] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:]Nothing free entered the system in this market manipulation.
CCP dropped the ball pure and simple. CCP Screegs can carry on all he likes about it in the many posts in this thread but it doesn't change the fact they messed up the FW changes - badly. And how you take stuff off people who have done nothing but master the situation presented before them is beyond me. The problem for CCP is the scale. If it was 5 billion this just would have been patched.
CCP were just totally outplayed when they have an immense advantage and they don't like it. You can tell from the judgemental tone in CCP Screegs first post in this thread including the predetermined outcome. As the Op stated "InfernoGÇÖs big design mistake was that it was released with a literal currency fountain, very nearly without limit. Unbeknownst to themselves, CCP had accidentally delved into the world of forex, providing a way to exchange one currency (isk) for another (LP) with only a few checks and balances built into the system." So although it wasn't free per say, it was profitable. The POS exploit wasn't free either you had to buy and set up the POS to get the free stuff. Just as you had to purchase ships ect.. to profit from this exploit. You get CCP to come out and say and prove:Quote:Free stuff has entered the system. about this matter and I will reconsider. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:22:00 -
[3052] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing.
Funny how literally nobody except for Vaerah Vahrokha comments on that after it's been brought up multiple times, eh? I guess it doesn't fit into the narrative. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Lian Asanari
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:23:00 -
[3053] - Quote
Anyone knows the story of Icarus? Although, in EVE the stars don't give out heat |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
319
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:26:00 -
[3054] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits". CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much. Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing.
Each would be a case by case basis, I am not fully familiar with all of those, nor are they the point of this thread.
The basic case is exactly like the POS thread, an exploit was found and massively abused. The circumstances are similar so the punishments should be as well. It was not market manipulation that is player vs player. This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Alain Kinsella
120
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Posted - 2012.06.24 11:28:00 -
[3055] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Wow this thread got cleared of posts pretty heavily. Should be at page 152 already.
Thanks for keeping it open, though ! :)
I'm sure it's an excellent honeypot right now.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
319
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:31:00 -
[3056] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:You get CCP to come out and say and prove: Quote:Free stuff has entered the system. about this matter and I will reconsider. Were more LP received than should have been? Yes.
So they got what they should have plus more. So they got Free LP. Go to a store its normally buy 2 get one free. This was buy 1 get 10 free.
Free LP entered the game. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Lord Zim
919
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Posted - 2012.06.24 11:35:00 -
[3057] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits". CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much. Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing. Each would be a case by case basis, I am not fully familiar with all of those, nor are they the point of this thread. Insurance frauding: buy ship for less than the minerals + insurance would cost, insure for platinum, blow up ship, spawn new isk. This was the business model of quite a few people.
PA: Whenever nocx reached 900 isk, buy PA, refine into nocx, sell on market.
PI: various POS equipment etc were refinable into various PI goods. Tons of people bought tons of equipment and refined it and got tons of PI goods.
Frying Doom wrote:The basic case is exactly like the POS thread, an exploit was found and massively abused. The circumstances are similar so the punishments should be as well. It was not market manipulation that is player vs player. This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. No, it really isn't exactly like the POS thread, since the POS thread was an exploit of an actual software defect. The examples I provided were, however, exactly like "the FW exploit".
No bugs were exploited in this thread. The POS thread has its basis in an actual bug. |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:39:00 -
[3058] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:You get CCP to come out and say and prove: Quote:Free stuff has entered the system. about this matter and I will reconsider. Were more LP received than should have been? Yes. So they got what they should have plus more. So they got Free LP. Go to a store its normally buy 2 get one free. This was buy 1 get 10 free. Free LP entered the game. Insurance fraud: were more isk received than should have been? Given that CCP changed the way prices are calculated, Imn going to go with "yes". So they got what they should have plus more, so they got free ISK.
PA: were more nocx received than should have been? Given that CCP changed PA to refine into trit instead of nocx, I'm going to go with "yes".
PI: were more PI goods received than should have been? Given that CCP changed (or completely removed) the refinery options, I'm going to go with "yes".
None of them were software bugs, all of them were mechanics which could've done with more thought behind them. The POS mechanic was a software bug. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
319
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:44:00 -
[3059] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:The basic case is exactly like the POS thread, an exploit was found and massively abused. The circumstances are similar so the punishments should be as well. It was not market manipulation that is player vs player. This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. No, it really isn't exactly like the POS thread, since the POS thread was an exploit of an actual software defect. The examples I provided were, however, exactly like "the FW exploit". No bugs were exploited in this thread. The POS thread has its basis in an actual bug. To quote the OP again "Formula
The GÇ£costGÇ¥ in this equation was CCPGÇÖs own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break -- CCPGÇÖs item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof."
So it wasn't a software bug that made the equation so easy to manipulate? Please see underlined text.
As I said exactly the same. It was a software exploit. Being able to "generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost", sounds like a bug to me.
The only real question will be the next series of posts either "CCP to soft on Goonswarm Again" or "CCP kick Goonswarm in the goulies". I doubt it will be "CCP follows precedent". Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:48:00 -
[3060] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:So it wasn't a software bug that made the equation so easy to manipulate? Please see underlined text. That's not a software bug, that's a poorly thought out design.
Frying Doom wrote:As I said exactly the same. It was a software exploit. Being able to "generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost", sounds like a bug to me. That's weak design, not a software exploit.
Frying Doom wrote:The only real question will be the next series of posts either "CCP to soft on Goonswarm Again" or "CCP kick Goonswarm in the goulies". I doubt it will be "CCP follows precedent". I guess everyone who blew up their ship for insurance money need to get kicked in the nuts, too. And everyone who bought PA and refined them into nocx. And everyone who got "free PI goods for practically no cost". |
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LoveFromAbove
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:48:00 -
[3061] - Quote
Manipulating and exploiting are very different terms, you should probably learn the difference. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1572
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:49:00 -
[3062] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Insurance frauding: buy ship for less than the minerals + insurance would cost, insure for platinum, blow up ship, spawn new isk. This was the business model of quite a few people.
In my ninja salvager times, i remember i scanned a megathron. (i think it was a mega ...) I warped there and it was gone ... i only saw a wreck.
Confused, and talking in chat, suddenly a megathron warps in ... ... and initiates self destruct.
I convo'd him ... and he was confused how i got there. lol
I asked him what he was doing ... his short, but simple response was:
"Insurance fraud! :D"
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Powers Sa
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
235
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:51:00 -
[3063] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. So you're for the players getting to keep the loot? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
320
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:54:00 -
[3064] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Frying Doom wrote:This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. So you're for the players getting to keep the loot? I'm sorry I don't know how to respond to you, given your obvious mental difficulties. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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smokess
Selective Hearing Nearly Feared
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:54:00 -
[3065] - Quote
I love you Screegs. You are awesome . |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
320
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 11:59:00 -
[3066] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:So it wasn't a software bug that made the equation so easy to manipulate? Please see underlined text. That's not a software bug, that's a poorly thought out design. Frying Doom wrote:As I said exactly the same. It was a software exploit. Being able to "generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost", sounds like a bug to me. That's weak design, not a software exploit. Frying Doom wrote:The only real question will be the next series of posts either "CCP to soft on Goonswarm Again" or "CCP kick Goonswarm in the goulies". I doubt it will be "CCP follows precedent". I guess everyone who blew up their ship for insurance money need to get kicked in the nuts, too. And everyone who bought PA and refined them into nocx. And everyone who got "free PI goods for practically no cost". ok what the hell do you think a software bug is besides poorly thought out design. That is what makes bugs, well that and sloppy coding. Just because it doesn't crash the server or make isk magically appear doesn't mean it is not a bug. The POS's had to work to make isk for free as did the LP rip off. They are the same.
If this was anyone other than Goonswarm caught doing this you would be first in line asking for their head.
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
588
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:00:00 -
[3067] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Insurance fraud: were more isk received than should have been? Given that CCP changed the way prices are calculated, Imn going to go with "yes". So they got what they should have plus more, so they got free ISK.
PA: were more nocx received than should have been? Given that CCP changed PA to refine into trit instead of nocx, I'm going to go with "yes".
PI: were more PI goods received than should have been? Given that CCP changed (or completely removed) the refinery options, I'm going to go with "yes".
None of them were software bugs, all of them were mechanics which could've done with more thought behind them. The POS mechanic was a software bug. And all of them were exploits that were subsequently patched. Some of the exploiters received the banhammer and more. Some didn't. That does not make it less of an exploit. But exploiting on a scale that can break the game will surely leed to some actions. In this particular case I don't think a ban is appropriate for several reasons (but I don't have all the information so that may change) and if it was on a smaller scale it would just have been patched and forgotten about. But these guys were aiming for the headlines. Well they got them and maybe some more. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
320
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:00:00 -
[3068] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Frying Doom wrote:This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. So you're for the players getting to keep the loot? I'm sorry I don't know how to respond to you, given your obvious mental difficulties. The precedence set by everyone who exploited insurance fraud, PI, PA and probably countless others I'm forgetting offhand indicates that the players should keep the loot, since the only thing that was exploited was a design which could use more work. The ferrogel exploit, which you keep referring to, was a pure software bug, the design was sound. The get as much LP as you want practically for free is also a bug of epic proportions, probably alot greater than the POS scam. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Powers Sa
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
235
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:05:00 -
[3069] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Frying Doom wrote:This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. So you're for the players getting to keep the loot? I'm sorry I don't know how to respond to you, given your obvious mental difficulties. Nope. I don't think you'll ever learn. A design flaw is not an exploit. A design flaw is an oversight. It is an error made by the team thinking it out. It is technically legitimate gameplay. No one was actually harmed or murdered endlessly as a result. People bought things they wanted, for cheaper than they could before. This lead to cheap fleet issue tempests, stabbers, and CNR's. No isk was removed or added to the economy. Manufacturing LP out of thin air is something CCP will need to address more seriously instead of dropping a bandaid on it like they do with titan fixes and other major glaring holes. If you halfass something, someone will figure it out and engineer a way to take advantage of it.
Just like we do with your posting. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
320
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:08:00 -
[3070] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:No isk was removed or added to the economy. No isk was added or removed from the economy with the POS bug. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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spookydonut
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
135
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:13:00 -
[3071] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:No isk was removed or added to the economy. No isk was added or removed from the economy with the POS bug.
Which one? There's been quite a few. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
320
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:15:00 -
[3072] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Frying Doom wrote:This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. So you're for the players getting to keep the loot? I'm sorry I don't know how to respond to you, given your obvious mental difficulties. Nope. I don't think you'll ever learn. A design flaw is not an exploit. A design flaw is an oversight. It is an error made by the team thinking it out. It is technically legitimate gameplay. No one was actually harmed or murdered endlessly as a result. People bought things they wanted, for cheaper than they could before. This lead to cheap fleet issue tempests, stabbers, and CNR's. No isk was removed or added to the economy. Manufacturing LP out of thin air is something CCP will need to address more seriously instead of dropping a bandaid on it like they do with titan fixes and other major glaring holes. If you halfass something, someone will figure it out and engineer a way to take advantage of it. Just like we do with your posting. Thought I would add to this one as you state
Design flaw = error but errors are not bugs.
So quick Wikipedia entry for you so you can learn
"A software bug is the common term used to describe an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways. Most bugs arise from mistakes and errors made by people in either a program's source code or its design, and a few are caused by compilers producing incorrect code. A program that contains a large number of bugs, and/or bugs that seriously interfere with its functionality, is said to be buggy. Reports detailing bugs in a program are commonly known as bug reports, fault reports, problem reports, trouble reports, change requests, and so forth."
So according to Wikipedia Error does equal bug. Did you learn yet? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Lord Zim
919
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Posted - 2012.06.24 12:15:00 -
[3073] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:ok what the hell do you think a software bug is besides poorly thought out design. That is what makes bugs, well that and sloppy coding. Just because it doesn't crash the server or make isk magically appear doesn't mean it is not a bug. You've been down pedantry road before with me, and you know how that went.
But anyways: a software bug is things like a reaction keeping going even though there's absolutely no inputs going into the reactor, because they were all removed after the reaction was started. Why was this doable? The check for inputs were only done when the reaction was started, not on subsequent ticks. The design was very clear on how it was supposed to work, the implementation did not match the design.
The FW "bug" was also pretty clear on how it was supposed to work, and what aryth etc did did not make the implementation do what it was not designed to do, it's just that the overall design was poorly thought out.
Hence, software bug vs design flaw.
Frying Doom wrote:If this was anyone other than Goonswarm caught doing this you would be first in line asking for their head. I would assume they'd get the same treatment as those who exploited the insurance fraud mechanic, the PA refining into nocx mechanic, and the POS stuff refines into PI mechanic.
Lexmana wrote:And all of them were exploits that were subsequently patched. Some of the exploiters received the banhammer and more. Some didn't. That does not make it less of an exploit. But exploiting on a scale that can break the game will surely leed to some actions. In this particular case I don't think a ban is appropriate for several reasons (but I don't have all the information so that may change) and if it was on a smaller scale it would just have been patched and forgotten about. But these guys were aiming for the headlines. Well they got them and maybe some more. The designs were changed to stop the unintended usage of the mechanics, yes. I've yet to hear of anyone who actually got banned over this, or had any reactions against them. Unless, of course, they continued doing what CCP had told, very publically, that they shouldn't keep doing after that point in time. |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
589
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:16:00 -
[3074] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote: A design flaw is not an exploit. Just because you keep repeating that does not make it true.
But seriously, lets discuss this principle. Do you actually argue that if CCP would mess up in the same way but on a scale that would make LP worthless for a decade and ruin the whole economy ine the game we should just accept it and move on even if EVE would die (yes I said it) because it was a design flaw?
By the way, this is how an exploit is defined by wikipedia. How do you define an exploit?
Quote:An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:16:00 -
[3075] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:No isk was removed or added to the economy. No isk was added or removed from the economy with the POS bug. Actually, isk was removed from the economy due to the LP isk sink. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
320
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:19:00 -
[3076] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:No isk was removed or added to the economy. No isk was added or removed from the economy with the POS bug. Actually, isk was removed from the economy due to the LP isk sink. Well you need to argue with Powers SA about that. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
137
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Posted - 2012.06.24 12:21:00 -
[3077] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:[quote=Frying Doom]This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. So you're for the players getting to keep the loot? The ferrogel exploit, which you keep referring to, was a pure software bug, the design was sound.
What are you talking about. A bug means the design was not completed correctly. If the design is poor. If the design was correct then you have no bugs! You cannot claim a good desing and have bugs. Its does not work that way!
Now a design thats poor, will have flaws. In this case the heart of the issue is a design flaw. So Goons took advatange of a design flaw which all it really means is that they exploited a game mechanic.
By exploiting a game mechanic based on a design flaw you are in violation of CCP rules.
Its that simple. You cannot say game mechanic and design flaw is different thing cos they are a meachnic. You cannot claim good design and say it has bugs. You cannot have good design with bugs. Its simply called bad software design! Infact one of the reasons you do a design is to avoid bugs/flaws! |
Yolanta Geezenstack
GWA Corp Unified Church of the Unobligated
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:22:00 -
[3078] - Quote
Whow, some litres of coffee were needed to reach this page. :)
What really impressed me was Aryth's calm reaction - kudos. Not sure I would have been so restrained.
Like a couple of other non-goons personally I still think it wasn't an exploit and that the "Faction Five" should have kept what they gained. But of course it is a grey area (or we wouldn't had such a long thread).
While we see a couple of non-goons who say it isn't an exploit, there isn't a goon who says it was. Or at least says it was a grey area (or did I miss a post in all those pages?).
I wonder what would have been the reaction if a non-goon (for instance this Jade-guy...) would have made 3 Trillion ISK and the goons only a couple of Billions. Somehow I doubt that everyone who now thinks it wasn't an exploit still would have had the same opinion... |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
320
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:24:00 -
[3079] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Hence, software bug vs design flaw. A design flaw is a software bug and is classed as an exploit.
Frying Doom wrote:If this was anyone other than Goonswarm caught doing this you would be first in line asking for their head. I would assume they'd get the same treatment as those who exploited the insurance fraud mechanic, the PA refining into nocx mechanic, and the POS stuff refines into PI mechanic. As stated before it was the size of the matter and the numbers involved. the POS was by 7 corps, this was by 1 alliance and very deliberate, you can not say all the others PI and insurance fraud were all deliberate. Hell I lost ships to stupidity and got insurance but I did not blow up hundreds and post it in General Discussion.
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Powers Sa
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
235
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:27:00 -
[3080] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Frying Doom wrote:This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it. So you're for the players getting to keep the loot? I'm sorry I don't know how to respond to you, given your obvious mental difficulties. Nope. I don't think you'll ever learn. A design flaw is not an exploit. A design flaw is an oversight. It is an error made by the team thinking it out. It is technically legitimate gameplay. No one was actually harmed or murdered endlessly as a result. People bought things they wanted, for cheaper than they could before. This lead to cheap fleet issue tempests, stabbers, and CNR's. No isk was removed or added to the economy. Manufacturing LP out of thin air is something CCP will need to address more seriously instead of dropping a bandaid on it like they do with titan fixes and other major glaring holes. If you halfass something, someone will figure it out and engineer a way to take advantage of it. Just like we do with your posting. Thought I would add to this one as you state Design flaw = error but errors are not bugs. So quick Wikipedia entry for you so you can learn "A software bug is the common term used to describe an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways. Most bugs arise from mistakes and errors made by people in either a program's source code or its design, and a few are caused by compilers producing incorrect code. A program that contains a large number of bugs, and/or bugs that seriously interfere with its functionality, is said to be buggy. Reports detailing bugs in a program are commonly known as bug reports, fault reports, problem reports, trouble reports, change requests, and so forth." So according to Wikipedia Error does equal bug. Did you learn yet? Anyone can edit wikipedia. |
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
320
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Posted - 2012.06.24 12:29:00 -
[3081] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Anyone can edit wikipedia. And billions have learned to read. Your point?
Just for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bug Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:30:00 -
[3082] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:What are you talking about. A bug means the design was poor. If the design was correct then you have no bugs! A bug means the software doesn't do what the design says it should.
Andrea Roche wrote:You cannot claim a good design and have bugs. Its does not work that way! You can have an awesome design, but the guys doing the programming ****** up their implementation somewhere. That's a pure software bug right there.
Andrea Roche wrote:Now a design thats poor, will have flaws. In this case the heart of the issue is a design flaw. A bad design which is implemented properly is not a software bug, it's a design with issues.
Andrea Roche wrote:So Goons took advatange of a design flaw which all it really means is that they exploited a game mechanic.
By exploiting a game mechanic based on a design flaw you are in violation of CCP rules. And this is different from insurance fraud, the PI debacle and the PA/nocx debacle how?
Andrea Roche wrote:You cannot claim good design and say it has bugs. You cannot have good design with bugs. Its simply called bad software design! Infact one of the reasons you do a design is to avoid bugs/flaws! Yes, you can have good design with bugs, it's called a bad implementation.
And no, the reason you do design is to develop a system design. The software bugs come during the implementation phase, where the design is implemented into actual code, which comes after the design phase. |
Maybelater Headache
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:31:00 -
[3083] - Quote
+1 CCP |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
589
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:31:00 -
[3084] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Anyone can edit wikipedia. Anyone can post on eve forums? |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:35:00 -
[3085] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:As stated before it was the size of the matter and the numbers involved. the POS was by 7 corps, this was by 1 alliance and very deliberate, you can not say all the others PI and insurance fraud were all deliberate. 1) "this" was done by 5 people. I had nothing to do with it, even though I wish I had just for the sheer thrill of it. 2) The PI were very deliberate, the effects are still felt today as a matter of fact. 3) Insurance fraud was very deliberate. You don't platinum insure a ship, undock, accidentally hit selfdestruct, dock up, platinum insure another ship, undock, accidentally hit selfdestruct etc etc etc hundreds of times, do you?
Frying Doom wrote:Hell I lost ships to stupidity and got insurance but I did not blow up hundreds and post it in General Discussion. So what you're saying is, it would have been better to just use the feature on a low scale and not tell CCP about it, and let them find out about it in a few years? Like the POS bug you keep talking about? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
321
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:36:00 -
[3086] - Quote
Actually this is kind of funny even though everything wikipedia, dictionaries and CCP's rules are against Goonswarm's interpretation of this, they soldier on. Have to give them points for trying especially when there is so clear a precedent.
Reminds me of the expression to do with excrement and a hill Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
321
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:37:00 -
[3087] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:As stated before it was the size of the matter and the numbers involved. the POS was by 7 corps, this was by 1 alliance and very deliberate, you can not say all the others PI and insurance fraud were all deliberate. 1) "this" was done by 5 people. I had nothing to do with it, even though I wish I had just for the sheer thrill of it. 2) The PI were very deliberate, the effects are still felt today as a matter of fact. 3) Insurance fraud was very deliberate. You don't platinum insure a ship, undock, accidentally hit selfdestruct, dock up, platinum insure another ship, undock, accidentally hit selfdestruct etc etc etc hundreds of times, do you? Frying Doom wrote:Hell I lost ships to stupidity and got insurance but I did not blow up hundreds and post it in General Discussion. So what you're saying is, it would have been better to just use the feature on a low scale and not tell CCP about it, and let them find out about it in a few years? Like the POS bug you keep talking about? Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
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Posted - 2012.06.24 12:38:00 -
[3088] - Quote
Guess it's time to repost this. Here's the link to start reviewing what CCP Sreegs has said, just keep clicking on his Dev tag and you'll go to the next one. Note these quotes are not necessarily in order.
So the arguments ongoing about software bugs/design glithch/yada yada yada are really pointless.
CCP Sreegs wrote:I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
CCP Sreegs wrote:You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same.
Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest.
Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".
CCP Sreegs wrote:I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers.
So like I said, all the current raging is rather pointless. |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:39:00 -
[3089] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs. It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:43:00 -
[3090] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs. It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. If you are going to do it and know it's wrong (as written in the OP), then expect the consequences.
CCP Sreegs wrote:I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. |
|
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:45:00 -
[3091] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Guess it's time to repost this. Here's the link to start reviewing what CCP Sreegs has said, just keep clicking on his Dev tag and you'll go to the next one. Note these quotes are not necessarily in order. So the arguments ongoing about software bugs/design glithch/yada yada yada are really pointless.
CCP Sreegs wrote:I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations. Just like insurance fraud, PI and PA and probably countless other situations, then. When will we start seeing them do anything to the guys who abused those mechanics?
CCP Sreegs wrote:I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Insurance fraud: print money, crash markets PI: print PI, crash markets PA: print nocx, crash markets
vOv
CCP Sreegs wrote:Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers. Design issue, not a programming issue, if we're pedantic. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:49:00 -
[3092] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Lots of pointless unpoints. Design issue, not a programming issue, if we're pedantic. Again, you can argue semantics all you want. If you don't want to read the messages that CCP Sreegs is providing, then you aren't willing to adapt.
Basically, CCP is saying the system was abused, they will fix the issue, they will clean up the mess, and they will decide about punishment.
Very simple. No arguments and is very clear. |
Danfen Fenix
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:51:00 -
[3093] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs. It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways.
Are you sure? Because, the OP states that this kind of stuff could not simply be tested on Sisi, so they waited until it released
Quote:We laid in wait. Much of what we believed to be true could not be tested on SISI. Patch day came and we immediately moved into action, enrolling alts into Minmatar FW & Amarr FW and moving freighters full of delicious zydrine/nocxium/megacyte into position
How come, now you feel the consequences...the story suddenly changes? |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:53:00 -
[3094] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Lots of pointless unpoints. Design issue, not a programming issue, if we're pedantic. Again, you can argue semantics all you want. If you don't want to read the messages that CCP Sreegs is providing, then you aren't willing to adapt. Basically, CCP is saying the system was abused, they will fix the issue, they will clean up the mess, and they will decide about punishment. Very simple. No arguments and is very clear. So in other words, since the other examples I've provided weren't punished (and we could add tracking titans to that mix as well, since titans weren't designed to shoot f.ex daredevils, yet design issues with the tracking algorithm opens up for this), the ticket is to exploit design issues silently.
Gotcha. |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:55:00 -
[3095] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs. It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways. Are you sure? Because, the OP states that this kind of stuff could not simply be tested on Sisi, so they waited until it released It not being verifiable on sisi doesn't mean you can't see the potential for exploitation and report on it. This isn't rocket science. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:57:00 -
[3096] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Lots of pointless unpoints. Design issue, not a programming issue, if we're pedantic. Again, you can argue semantics all you want. If you don't want to read the messages that CCP Sreegs is providing, then you aren't willing to adapt. Basically, CCP is saying the system was abused, they will fix the issue, they will clean up the mess, and they will decide about punishment. Very simple. No arguments and is very clear. So in other words, since the other examples I've provided weren't punished (and we could add tracking titans to that mix as well, since titans weren't designed to shoot f.ex daredevils, yet design issues with the tracking algorithm opens up for this), the ticket is to exploit design issues silently. Gotcha. Adapt or die. Isn't that what the Goons say? So, it seems like CCP is doing that. Any sane business or person would do it. If you and the Goons don't understand that, then I guess the Goons are not really who/what they say they are? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
321
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 12:58:00 -
[3097] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs. It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways. So the bug was reported multiple time on SiSi and these guys just went "well they haven't fixed it before release, so we will exploit it."
And you are now arguing they shouldn't be banned, the isk gotten shouldn't be forfeit and the goods bought with the LP bug should be confiscated.
That is as bad as it gets.
Have said it before the POS exploit and this punishment should be the same. Anything less is favoritism and anything more is too harsh.
CCP the precedent exists, use it. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Ivana Twinkle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
256
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:00:00 -
[3098] - Quote
Threads like this is what makes me happy that CCP doesn't listen to their customers feedback. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:01:00 -
[3099] - Quote
ccp intended people to get lp for popping ships.
if they didn't intend for people to get so much lp they should have done their sums right. |
Danfen Fenix
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:02:00 -
[3100] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Danfen Fenix wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs. It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways. Are you sure? Because, the OP states that this kind of stuff could not simply be tested on Sisi, so they waited until it released It not being verifiable on sisi doesn't mean you can't see the potential for exploitation and report on it. This isn't rocket science.
Even so then...if they reported it, seeing (in your words) the "potential for exploitation"...
Why the on release did they still proceed to exploit it? You surely can not be argueing that they should get off scott free even thought it was released in that state, when they knew perfectly well it would be deemed an exploit? |
|
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:03:00 -
[3101] - Quote
Ivana Twinkle wrote:Threads like this is what makes me happy that CCP doesn't listen to their customers feedback. I wish they had listened when their customers told them to hire a competent PR department.
Instead we got CCP Sreegs. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:03:00 -
[3102] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Adapt or die. Isn't that what the Goons say? So, it seems like CCP is doing that. Any sane business or person would do it. If you and the Goons don't understand that, then I guess the Goons are not really who/what they say they are? Oh, I know exactly what'll happen if I stumble upon a design issue one of these days.
Frying Doom wrote:And you are now arguing they shouldn't be banned, the isk gotten shouldn't be forfeit and the goods bought with the LP bug should be confiscated. No, I'm not. I'm pointing out 3-4 other mechanics with design issues in them which have been exploited quite extensively, where nothing has happened beyond the design issue being fixed (and the jury is still out on the titan tracking, I haven't kept up on that lately), and asking what made them different from this case.
Frying Doom wrote:That is as bad as it gets. Stop reading things which aren't there.
Frying Doom wrote:Have said it before the POS exploit and this punishment should be the same. Anything less is favoritism and anything more is too harsh. The POS issue was a programming bug, which isn't the same as this case at all. The closest you'll get to this case is insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans, where design issues were utilized.
Frying Doom wrote:CCP the precedent exists, use it. The precedence they set in insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans, which was the same thing as this case? Or the POS exploit, which was the exploitation of a programming bug? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
321
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:08:00 -
[3103] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: The precedence they set in insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans, which was the same thing as this case? Or the POS exploit, which was the exploitation of a programming bug?
Will save time and just say this was also a programming bug as explained alot above. The PI, insurance thing you use in multiple posts now were fixed, with a lot of people doing it a bit, not a handful pushing it beyond all reason. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Haikato Saraki
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:08:00 -
[3104] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Please demonstrate how this was an exploit when CCP hasn't even completed their explanation. That's a mighty big strawman you built there.
Exactly why do I need to demonstrate anything? CCP has apparently already made their ruling on this matter by seizing assets from those involved. At this point your just trying to play word games.
The facts are that some people within goonswarm found out exactly how far they were able to push the envelope and are now paying the price.
Everything else is just conjecture on my part. There's no strawman here, Im just sharing opinion on events that have transpired.
CCP Sreegs wrote:I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.
I think this just about perfectly sums up my opinion on all this. Problem made, problem fixed. What else is there to say? |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:08:00 -
[3105] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:Why the on release did they still proceed to exploit it? You surely can not be argueing that they should get off scott free even thought it was released in that state, when they knew perfectly well it would be deemed an exploit? If they hadn't shown CCP the extend to which it could be taken, then chances are CCP would've done just like they did with the ferrogel duplication case, let it sit in the game for years while everyone else used the game mechanic to its fullest extent. |
Danfen Fenix
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:11:00 -
[3106] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Danfen Fenix wrote:Why the on release did they still proceed to exploit it? You surely can not be argueing that they should get off scott free even thought it was released in that state, when they knew perfectly well it would be deemed an exploit? If they hadn't shown CCP the extend to which it could be taken, then chances are CCP would've done just like they did with the ferrogel duplication case, let it sit in the game for years while everyone else used the game mechanic to its fullest extent.
Ok...so they exploited the system to show CCP what could happen...
Now then. Why should they get off scott free? They've achieved what they wanted to do. Why all the butt hurt over the punishment, which surely they knew was coming? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
321
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:12:00 -
[3107] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Danfen Fenix wrote:Why the on release did they still proceed to exploit it? You surely can not be argueing that they should get off scott free even thought it was released in that state, when they knew perfectly well it would be deemed an exploit? If they hadn't shown CCP the extend to which it could be taken, then chances are CCP would've done just like they did with the ferrogel duplication case, let it sit in the game for years while everyone else used the game mechanic to its fullest extent. So now your arguing that because they used a bug with wild abandon they were just showing CCP and should be heroes?
Precedent exists for this behavior and should be used. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:12:00 -
[3108] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Danfen Fenix wrote:Why the on release did they still proceed to exploit it? You surely can not be argueing that they should get off scott free even thought it was released in that state, when they knew perfectly well it would be deemed an exploit? If they hadn't shown CCP the extend to which it could be taken, then chances are CCP would've done just like they did with the ferrogel duplication case, let it sit in the game for years while everyone else used the game mechanic to its fullest extent. Probably. Yet again, expect consequences. |
Lord Zim
919
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:12:00 -
[3109] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Lon list of meaningless dribble. Then you haven't read or reflected on the things that Sreegs has said. One day you'll run afoul and will be permabanned. I await that day sir. So you're saying that the insurance fraud, PI and PA were different from this case? How?
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote: The precedence they set in insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans, which was the same thing as this case? Or the POS exploit, which was the exploitation of a programming bug?
Will save time and just say this was also a programming bug as explained alot above. The PI, insurance thing you use in multiple posts now were fixed, with a lot of people doing it a bit, not a handful pushing it beyond all reason. The PI, PA and insurance thing was not a programming bug, it was a design flaw, same goes for tracking titans. None of them were programming bugs, since they were performing exactly the way they were designed. All the details for how things worked were publically available, with CCP-endorsed explanations saying "this is how this works".
The POS bug you tout did not do what CCP said was how it worked. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
137
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:14:00 -
[3110] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:You cannot claim a good design and have bugs. Its does not work that way! You can have an awesome design, but the guys doing the programming ****** up their implementation somewhere. That's a pure software bug right there. Andrea Roche wrote:Now a design thats poor, will have flaws. In this case the heart of the issue is a design flaw. A bad design which is implemented properly is not a software bug, it's a design with issues. Andrea Roche wrote:So Goons took advatange of a design flaw which all it really means is that they exploited a game mechanic.
By exploiting a game mechanic based on a design flaw you are in violation of CCP rules. And this is different from insurance fraud, the PI debacle and the PA/nocx debacle how? Andrea Roche wrote:You cannot claim good design and say it has bugs. You cannot have good design with bugs. Its simply called bad software design! Infact one of the reasons you do a design is to avoid bugs/flaws! Yes, you can have good design with bugs, it's called a bad implementation. And no, the reason you do design is to develop a system design. The software bugs come during the implementation phase, where the design is implemented into actual code, which comes after the design phase.
gush. ok let me put it simple... Every time you make a change to the system, you have to do some sort of desing. The design could be small or a broad design depending on the change required. Sometimes it required a complete new redesign of a system. Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above ostd by you is incorrect. If no then "you" obviously dont do design everytime you implemente code, so its viable to bugs/features/run time errors etc. PS: by "you" i did not target you but this is a generalisation. Dont take it personal |
|
Lord Zim
920
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:16:00 -
[3111] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:Now then. Why should they get off scott free? They've achieved what they wanted to do. Why all the butt hurt over the punishment, which surely they knew was coming? Call it more a desire to get an answer to what made this different from the other design issues which have been exploited in more or less the same way.
Frying Doom wrote:So now your arguing that because they used a bug with wild abandon they were just showing CCP and should be heroes? Please point out where I said they should be heroes.
Frying Doom wrote:Precedent exists for this behavior and should be used. You mean the nothing which happened to any one specific person after insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans were tweaked to try to avoid undesirable behavior? |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:16:00 -
[3112] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote: gush. ok let me put it simple... Every time you make a change to the system, you have to do some sort of desing. The design could be small or a broad design depending on the change required. Sometimes it required a complete new redesign of a system. Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect. If no then "you" obviously dont do design everytime you implemente code, so its viable to bugs/features/run time errors etc. PS: by "you" i did not target you but this is a generalisation. Dont take it personal
Heh, nice try. Lord Tim is either trolling, or he doesn't have the capacity to understand the issue and what's happened. Basically, ignore him. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:18:00 -
[3113] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Andrea Roche wrote: gush. ok let me put it simple... Every time you make a change to the system, you have to do some sort of desing. The design could be small or a broad design depending on the change required. Sometimes it required a complete new redesign of a system. Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect. If no then "you" obviously dont do design everytime you implemente code, so its viable to bugs/features/run time errors etc. PS: by "you" i did not target you but this is a generalisation. Dont take it personal
Heh, nice try. Lord Tim is either trolling, or he doesn't have the capacity to understand the issue and what's happened. Basically, ignore him.
i think its both. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
321
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:18:00 -
[3114] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Lon list of meaningless dribble. Then you haven't read or reflected on the things that Sreegs has said. One day you'll run afoul and will be permabanned. I await that day sir. So you're saying that the insurance fraud, PI and PA were different from this case? How? Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote: The precedence they set in insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans, which was the same thing as this case? Or the POS exploit, which was the exploitation of a programming bug?
Will save time and just say this was also a programming bug as explained alot above. The PI, insurance thing you use in multiple posts now were fixed, with a lot of people doing it a bit, not a handful pushing it beyond all reason. The PI, PA and insurance thing was not a programming bug, it was a design flaw, same goes for tracking titans. None of them were programming bugs, since they were performing exactly the way they were designed. All the details for how things worked were publically available, with CCP-endorsed explanations saying "this is how this works". The POS bug you tout did not do what CCP said was how it worked. So if that is the argument you wish to put forward please show me the Dev blog that states that you can shoot ships you have deliberately filled with goods that the valuer, prices higher than they are to get more LP than you should. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:20:00 -
[3115] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: So if that is the argument you wish to put forward please show me the Dev blog that states that you can shoot ships you have deliberately filled with goods that the valuer, prices higher than they are to get more LP than you should.
Since when was it a rule you can't blow any of your own things up? Especially for profit, I might add. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
321
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:21:00 -
[3116] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:Frying Doom wrote: So if that is the argument you wish to put forward please show me the Dev blog that states that you can shoot ships you have deliberately filled with goods that the valuer, prices higher than they are to get more LP than you should.
Since when was it a rule you can't blow any of your own things up? Especially for profit, I might add. Is this where I point to Lord Zim's insurance fraud? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
920
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:22:00 -
[3117] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect. A design just lays out what something should do, when it should do what, and how it should react to certain situations. The programmer then sets out to implement that design.
It doesn't matter how awesome the req spec, tech spec and design doc is for a feature, if the programmer sucks, just like it doesn't matter how awesome the programmer is, if the req spec, tech spec and design doc's content contain a flawed design. You can have an awesome design and a suckass implementation, or a ****** design but an awesome implementation. It's not an if x is good, then y is good kind of situation.
Andrea Roche wrote:If no then "you" obviously dont do design everytime you implemente code, so its viable to bugs/features/run time errors etc. No design document has any impact on programmer mistakes, inability to implement certain features or lack of input parameter checks. |
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:23:00 -
[3118] - Quote
Also Lord Zim just walked over all of your terrible, whiny arguments with impeccable logic and good grammar but as we can all tell that means nothing so really I don't even see why anyone argues with you anymore since you are beyond convincing.
I literally make my living sitting in Jita 4-4 playing the market. I flipped Caldari Navy Ravens yesterday and made ~500M. Is CCP gonna take my stuff now because I increased the price of CNRs? What if I blew up my CNRs because I hate Caldari stuff? Would it be illegal then? That'd also be driving up the price of CNRs and making me, or anyone who had CNRs, money. |
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:24:00 -
[3119] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:[quote=captain foivos] Is this where I point to Lord Zim's insurance fraud?
The fact that that was legal, accepted, and extensively practiced without repercussion has been established beyond any doubt so you should probably stop using that as a precedent. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:24:00 -
[3120] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Your comparison is flawed. The "Jewbal" built the economic equivalent of a warp drive with the economic equivalent of tinker toys.
That's why everybody's so mad.
Economic warp fields shouldn't be possible with Viking-made formulae. Icelandic Calculus is champion. No everybody are not so mad at all. This is my post in this very thread: "BRAVO GOONS!". But now that they proved their point and shown CCP they outplayed them, look at the thing for what it is (an abuse) and undo the damage done on the game. They got their "medal" and media e-fame, along with the privilege for not being banned that's all the prize they should keep.
Kinda think the slap on the wrist theyre all super pissed about WAS CCP undoing the damage
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:25:00 -
[3121] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:captain foivos wrote:Since when was it a rule you can't blow any of your own things up? Especially for profit, I might add. Is this where I point to Lord Zim's insurance fraud? You mean the one where there wasn't a rule that you couldn't do it? The one where CCP just patched it out and didn't do anything further? Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Lord Zim
920
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:26:00 -
[3122] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Andrea Roche wrote: gush. ok let me put it simple... Every time you make a change to the system, you have to do some sort of desing. The design could be small or a broad design depending on the change required. Sometimes it required a complete new redesign of a system. Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect. If no then "you" obviously dont do design everytime you implemente code, so its viable to bugs/features/run time errors etc. PS: by "you" i did not target you but this is a generalisation. Dont take it personal
Heh, nice try. Lord Tim is either trolling, or he doesn't have the capacity to understand the issue and what's happened. Basically, ignore him. This sounds more like a "I can't counter the insurance fraud, PI and PA cases where game mechanics were used in exactly the same fashion, so I'm going to ignore those points until he give up. Failing that, I'm going to make an ad hominem attack and hope he gives up." post than a victory post, to me. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:27:00 -
[3123] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: This sounds more like a "I can't counter the insurance fraud, PI and PA cases where game mechanics were used in exactly the same fashion, so I'm going to ignore those points until he give up. Failing that, I'm going to make an ad hominem attack and hope he gives up." post than a victory post, to me.
And FAIL! "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
90
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:27:00 -
[3124] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:The owners disagree. Theyre really all who matter oh good, we're at the point where you are out of arguments, you could just have said so Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:27:00 -
[3125] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:
This was no exploit.
The owners disagree. Theyre really all who matter
Also; wheres the advertising showing this mechanic? Cause supposedly the Goons were extremely smart to have come up with this... If its advertised, then theyre not as creative as ppl think lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Lord Zim
920
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:27:00 -
[3126] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:captain foivos wrote:Frying Doom wrote: So if that is the argument you wish to put forward please show me the Dev blog that states that you can shoot ships you have deliberately filled with goods that the valuer, prices higher than they are to get more LP than you should.
Since when was it a rule you can't blow any of your own things up? Especially for profit, I might add. Is this where I point to Lord Zim's insurance fraud? By all means, do. It seems everyone wants to ignore the fact that happened, along with PI, PA and tracking titans. |
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:28:00 -
[3127] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote: This sounds more like a "I can't counter the insurance fraud, PI and PA cases where game mechanics were used in exactly the same fashion, so I'm going to ignore those points until he give up. Failing that, I'm going to make an ad hominem attack and hope he gives up." post than a victory post, to me.
And FAIL!
But on whose part? Not Zim's, that's for sure. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:29:00 -
[3128] - Quote
corestwo wrote:
Sorry, I left out the part where the devs of LOTR Online who went "yep, our fault" let the players who discovered the legitimate but unintended interaction keep the money they made from it. Important distinction, really.
This is not LOTR and CCP is not that company. Important distinction, really
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
90
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:29:00 -
[3129] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote: Also; wheres the advertising showing this mechanic?
here Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
baltec1
1531
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:30:00 -
[3130] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote: This sounds more like a "I can't counter the insurance fraud, PI and PA cases where game mechanics were used in exactly the same fashion, so I'm going to ignore those points until he give up. Failing that, I'm going to make an ad hominem attack and hope he gives up." post than a victory post, to me.
And FAIL!
Does have a point. Its not like this is the first time something like this has happened. |
|
Danfen Fenix
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:31:00 -
[3131] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: You mean the nothing which happened to any one specific person after insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans were tweaked to try to avoid undesirable behavior?
Ok. So say someone gets away with murder. Could be they have a good laywer, there is little evidence, or it's simply the judges decision.
Are you saying everyone should get away with murder, simply due to that case? People constantly complain that CCP does nothing. Well looky here...they've done something. HTFU. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:31:00 -
[3132] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: By all means, do. It seems everyone wants to ignore the fact that happened, along with PI, PA and tracking titans.
An FAIL #2! "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:32:00 -
[3133] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote: This sounds more like a "I can't counter the insurance fraud, PI and PA cases where game mechanics were used in exactly the same fashion, so I'm going to ignore those points until he give up. Failing that, I'm going to make an ad hominem attack and hope he gives up." post than a victory post, to me.
And FAIL! Does have a point. Its not like this is the first time something like this has happened. Past performance is not indicative of future returns? "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:32:00 -
[3134] - Quote
CCP can't design a system that's robust against manipulation and so they get pissy at the people who manipulated their system. This isn't a case where there was a bug that was exploited; the system worked exactly as CCP intended.
Goons, once again, offer the most entertainment-by-reading of any video game, ever. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Lord Zim
920
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:32:00 -
[3135] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote: By all means, do. It seems everyone wants to ignore the fact that happened, along with PI, PA and tracking titans.
An FAIL #2! You know someone's completely lost when they start to abuse the word "fail" in this manner. |
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:33:00 -
[3136] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote: By all means, do. It seems everyone wants to ignore the fact that happened, along with PI, PA and tracking titans.
An FAIL #2! You know someone's completely lost when they start to abuse the word "fail" in this manner. And FAIL #3! It's a knockout folks! Good day sir! "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
90
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:34:00 -
[3137] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Oisin Sandovar wrote:Lord Zim wrote: By all means, do. It seems everyone wants to ignore the fact that happened, along with PI, PA and tracking titans.
An FAIL #2! You know someone's completely lost when they start to abuse the word "fail" in this manner. And FAIL #3! It's a knockout folks! Good day sir! I don't think you understand how a discussion works. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Lord Zim
920
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:36:00 -
[3138] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You mean the nothing which happened to any one specific person after insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans were tweaked to try to avoid undesirable behavior?
Ok. So say someone gets away with murder. Could be they have a good laywer, there is little evidence, or it's simply the judges decision. Are you saying everyone should get away with murder, simply due to that case? People constantly complain that CCP does nothing. Well looky here...they've done something. HTFU. Real life != EVE Online.
And there should be absolutely no lack of "evidence" in these cases. The only difference between this case and insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans have been the aftermath of CCP's butterfinger effect. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
321
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:38:00 -
[3139] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Danfen Fenix wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You mean the nothing which happened to any one specific person after insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans were tweaked to try to avoid undesirable behavior?
Ok. So say someone gets away with murder. Could be they have a good laywer, there is little evidence, or it's simply the judges decision. Are you saying everyone should get away with murder, simply due to that case? People constantly complain that CCP does nothing. Well looky here...they've done something. HTFU. Real life != EVE Online. And there should be absolutely no lack of "evidence" in these cases. The only difference between this case and insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans have been the aftermath of CCP's butterfinger effect. I agree completely with you CCP has butterfingered alot.
Stand with Lord Zim and show CCP that no more butterfingering will be tolerated.
Precedent exists they should use it. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:38:00 -
[3140] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote: I don't think you understand how a discussion works.
Huh. "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey |
|
Yuffu Kurvora
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:40:00 -
[3141] - Quote
OP's gona cry so hard when EvE shuts down --- WAY too much emotional investment, get some some air brah |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:42:00 -
[3142] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Haikato Saraki wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. this has been stated and restated several times in this threadanaught but all it really boils down to is; "we weren't as evil as we could have been." ...which as far as legal defences go is only slightly better than "the b!tch had it coming." If it had been Jade instead of you who had found and abused this, would you seriously try to tell me you would be lobbying as hard for them to keep the assets gained from this exploit? Honestly, seems to me that the only reason the involved "jewbal" haven't been banned is BECAUSE they brought it to CCP's attention. I sincerely hope that you DO try to keep it hush-hush the next time you find something like this because when CCP uncovers that future exploit your gona lose a lot more than you did today. epic exploit was epic, but did you really expect to crash the LP markets with an exploit and get away with it? Please demonstrate how this was an exploit when CCP hasn't even completed their explanation. That's a mighty big strawman you built there.
CCP Sreegs wrote:
It is absolutely true. It's even mentioned in the OP. That's not the entirety of the exploit of course but it does increase the damage window.
CCP Sreegs wrote:
When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
Sreegs:
"I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that."
Thats a pretty big lie youve got there unless of course Sreegs isnt CCP in your mind Sreegs:
"We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods."
May wanna be careful about lying bout this
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
91
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:43:00 -
[3143] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Or that exploiting a bug like the POS exploit with CCP giving permanent bans and destroying POS's wasn't a big enough hint?
The basic fact is they did things that the PI, insurance and all the other alterations showed CCP considered bad, adding to this they exploited a bug like the POS bug to extremes. I've pointed out repeatedly how there's a qualitative difference between ferrogel duping and PI/Insurance Fraud/Pax. You pretend it's exactly the same. Not even CCP agrees with you, as is obvious from the fact that the guys who duped ferrogel got banned and the ones who blew up their ships to collect insurance didn't. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Lord Zim
925
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:47:00 -
[3144] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Or that exploiting a bug like the POS exploit with CCP giving permanent bans and destroying POS's wasn't a big enough hint? That was abusing an undocumented sideeffect of a programming bug, not using well-documented (with formulas in a devblog, even) game mechanics. This means the ferrogel duping which ev0ke did is something you would have to stumble upon by accident, whereas insurance fraud, PI and PA are all things which everyone can find out about by reading and understanding how the game mechanics work, which means that if CCP hadn't made changes, everyone would've done it because it would be common knowledge. Unlike the programming bugs, which aren't documented so not everyone can see it for themselves.
Frying Doom wrote:The basic fact is they did things that the PI, insurance and all the other alterations showed CCP considered bad The precedence set by these events were "change the game mechanic, move on".
Frying Doom wrote:adding to this they exploited a bug like the POS bug to extremes. Again, this was the use of a programming bug, which is a very different matter.
Frying Doom wrote:and now members of Goonswarm don't think they should get punishments Show me where I've said they should not get any punishment whatsoever. I haven't, all I've done is point out 3 other cases where game mechanics were used in exactly the same form, by a fair bit of other people outside of goonswarm, I might add, and there were no repercussions there. I'd like to know what made this case different.
Frying Doom wrote:like the POS fools. Again, undocumented programming bug != well documented and public game mechanic. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
164
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:48:00 -
[3145] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
the entire point is whether they were within the limits of the sandbox or not. to me, they were.
To CCP they were not. YOU do not matter http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Eternum Praetorian
True Creation
812
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:48:00 -
[3146] - Quote
Just read the OP for the first time...
It appears to be about a small handful of people with nothing better to do in their life then find programming loop holes for CCP, without receiving real money compensation for all of their hours of effort, graphs, statistics and tedium. The op is presenting his findings with an obvious measure of pride and bluster, but I imagine that the heads at CCP are happy that all this was sorted out quickly, thanks to the actions of a select few EVE lifers in game.
I did an epic face palm and gave a deep sigh after I read this.
Why don't you go 4x4 through something in real life and apply all of this effort to some kind of real life success? This is one of the most pathetic things that I have ever read.
|
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:50:00 -
[3147] - Quote
I'm not sure the PI, PA, tracking Titans, or insurance scam really hold any relevance to this event. None of those had the potential to endlessly print LP that could be used to completely ruin faction warfare and crash entire sections of markets whilst also making anyone who took part in the exploit insanely rich.
This event will be, and should be handled on its own merits, and any abuse of exploits bugs etc. in the past and going into the future should be handled on a case by case basis. That is just the way things are... If you don't understand that you are a fool.
Lets be clear this WAS abusing an exploit. Please stop referring to RL situations and wiki references. If you are going to use a reference use a viable, peer reviewed, professionally respected one, such as this text book i'm using for a University degree - which has a definition of an exploit.
"blah blah.... or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is either inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. .... blah blah."
page 10 chapter 1 Principles of Information Security by, Michael E. Whitman & Herbert J. Mattord
The so called "faction five" have clearly abused a known vulnerability in the game mechanics, and should be punished accordingly. Its actually quite amusing that they thought nothing would happen, did they really think they'd get to keep the ISK, LP and assets, really? Oh no thats right, they were helping CCP to make the game better for all of us - lol |
Lord Zim
925
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:50:00 -
[3148] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:May wanna be careful about lying bout this You're implying some of us are lying, I take it? |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
327
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:50:00 -
[3149] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Or that exploiting a bug like the POS exploit with CCP giving permanent bans and destroying POS's wasn't a big enough hint?
The basic fact is they did things that the PI, insurance and all the other alterations showed CCP considered bad, adding to this they exploited a bug like the POS bug to extremes. I've pointed out repeatedly how there's a qualitative difference between ferrogel duping and PI/Insurance Fraud/Pax. You pretend it's exactly the same. Not even CCP agrees with you, as is obvious from the fact that the guys who duped ferrogel got banned and the ones who blew up their ships to collect insurance didn't. yes there is a difference the POS one was done extensively by a small group of people in a blatent disregard for any form of reason. Kind of like this LP bug.
The insurance PI ect.. were good warning posts, not to be a complete idiot before getting to the level of the POS guys.
The LP guys flew straight past the warnings and off the cliff with the POS guys. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:52:00 -
[3150] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect. A design just lays out what something should do, when it should do what, and how it should react to certain situations. The programmer then sets out to implement that design. It doesn't matter how awesome the req spec, tech spec and design doc is for a feature, if the programmer sucks, just like it doesn't matter how awesome the programmer is, if the req spec, tech spec and design doc's content contain a flawed design. You can have an awesome design and a suckass implementation, or a ****** design but an awesome implementation. It's not an if x is good, then y is good kind of situation. Andrea Roche wrote:If no then "you" obviously dont do design everytime you implemente code, so its viable to bugs/features/run time errors etc. No design document has any impact on programmer mistakes, inability to implement certain features or lack of input parameter checks.
You did not agree with "Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect."
Bugs/features are part of bad design. Even run time errors are part of bad design. If the design is correct then we got no errors or bugs. Design is a continuous thing and not just a one time thing. Everytime you make a change you need to produce a desing. The desing maybe wrong or the implementation of the design maybe wrong or both. If the design is wrong then the implementation will aso be wrong! If the design was good but the implementation of the design by the devloper was wrong then the implemented code is wrong and does not comply with the initial design and therefire the design coded is wrong! In either case you will get flaws and bugs.
Since you did not agree to the above, we have nothing else to talk about. Just gonna go in circles. Too stuburn. With no disrect. You simply cant argue that.
In the end, the owners disagree with you and happens to agree with me. This is a lost case! Unless all you want is to troll someone to death ! |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
327
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:53:00 -
[3151] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: Again, undocumented programming bug != well documented and public game mechanic.
If it was a well documented game mechanic, why was it reported to be a bug? because even though they documented it, it was still a bug. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Lord Zim
925
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:54:00 -
[3152] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:yes there is a difference the POS one Was done by someone figuring out a programming mistake in the code which wasn't documented anywhere.
Frying Doom wrote:Kind of like this LP bug. Except that was all done using information which was very public, which means everyone could've (and probably were on their way to doing as well) inferred the same and done it themselves. |
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:54:00 -
[3153] - Quote
So when did buying something from an LP store--which thousands of players do every day, I might add--become an illegal, punishable exploit? I mean, I would be thrilled if we banned all highsec mission runners and lowsec FW frigate-plexers, but I digress. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:54:00 -
[3154] - Quote
hey guys, want to know the truth of the situation?
until tomorrow, you know nothing. |
Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
589
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:59:00 -
[3155] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Except that was all done using information which was very public, which means everyone could've (and probably were on their way to doing as well) inferred the same and done it themselves. Exploiting known vulnerabilities is still exploiting.
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:59:00 -
[3156] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned. As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts." So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair. So at least the perpetrators know what to expect. but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading This has been brought up multiple times, and it's not applicable as it was an actual software defect in EVE. It was brought to CCP's attention multiple times over a few years until something made CCP finally actually take notice (presumably, the exploit became so widely used it was actually noticeable in some graph or something). What aryth etc did was not utilize a software defect, everything was legal according to game mechanics. Not according to CCP lol
wrong. ccp haven't made a decision yet. did you not read the thread before you started posting?
|
Danfen Fenix
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:00:00 -
[3157] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:So when did buying something from an LP store--which thousands of players do every day, I might add--become an illegal, punishable exploit? I mean, I would be thrilled if we banned all highsec mission runners and lowsec FW frigate-plexers, but I digress.
Problem is, that isn't 'just' what happened here. They found a hole in this system, brought it to the attention of CCP as they knew it could be exploited...
And then proceeded to exploit the system anyway to show CCP how it would work. They have admitted as such. As I said to Lord Zim earlier, due to this, why should they get off scott free? They knew it would class as an exploit, and yet went ahead with it anyway, and so they should have expected consequences. |
Lord Zim
925
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:00:00 -
[3158] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:You did not agree with "Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect." Yes, I didn't agree with it because I actually work as a programmer, I know what goes on in these processes. I know what is design and what is implementation, and the design being good doesn't automatically exclude the implementation being bad.
Andrea Roche wrote:Bugs/features are part of bad design. Even run time errors are part of bad design. No. Bugs are a part of bad implementation, missing features are a result of either the design being too ambitious or the implementer being too bad at his job. Runtime errors are squarely on the implementer's shoulders, the designer has absolutely nothing to do with what fuckups the programmer has made in his code.
Andrea Roche wrote:If the design is correct then we got no errors or bugs. If the design is good, then we have a chance of ending up with a good product. If the implementation is bad, then the implementation is bad and has errors or bugs, it doesn't mean the design is good or bad, it means the implementation is bad.
Andrea Roche wrote:If the design is wrong then the implementation will aso be wrong! If the design is wrong, then the end result will be wrong, but that doesn't mean the implementation can't be good. If the implementation does exactly what the design says it should do, then the implementation cannot be faulted for the design being bad, just like the design can't be faulted for the implementation being bad.
Andrea Roche wrote:If the design was good but the implementation of the design by the devloper was wrong then the implemented code is wrong and does not comply with the initial design and therefire the design coded is wrong! In either case you will get flaws and bugs. If the design is good and the implementation is bad, then the implementation being bad doesn't negatively reflect on the design, since they're two separate stages. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:01:00 -
[3159] - Quote
When has the use of "Jewbal" been acceptable here?
Come on.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:02:00 -
[3160] - Quote
LoveFromAbove wrote:Manipulating and exploiting are very different terms, you should probably learn the difference.
Take your on advice
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:02:00 -
[3161] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:When has the use of "Jewbal" been acceptable here?
Come on.
come on what? it's a name for a group of people nothing more. untie your panties. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1573
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Posted - 2012.06.24 14:03:00 -
[3162] - Quote
Sorry i'm late.
Lexmana wrote:Quote:An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]
Which shows that an exploit is not a design flaw.
"An exploit ... *is the use* of a bug or design flaw ..."
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Lord Zim
925
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Posted - 2012.06.24 14:03:00 -
[3163] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Except that was all done using information which was very public, which means everyone could've (and probably were on their way to doing as well) inferred the same and done it themselves. Exploiting known vulnerabilities is still exploiting. Just like it was when people insurance frauded, hoarded tons of PI stuff during the CCP PI fuckup, got 1.8 billion units of nocx (I think it was) out of the PA fiasco, and used tracking titans to help kill an alliance and capture their space. |
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ISD Stensson
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
19
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Posted - 2012.06.24 14:03:00 -
[3164] - Quote
Many thanks to all participating in this discussion. The attention of developers was successfully involved in the matter. However, at present the thread started to go aside from topic. To avoid a further contamination of a thread, I close it. Once again thanks to all participants for constructive posting. ISD Stensson Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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