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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1485
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1485
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:Xeross155 wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
Everything was already said and done by the time this adjustment was made. And was only discovered because the people doing it alerted CCP of its existence and asked it to be fixed.
The fix had already been checked in prior to us being aware of the details which is why the investigation isn't complete but the manipulated values have been set back to a more reasonable number. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1487
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1492
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Igner Greyhound wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
How about something like "This was technically legit, but the system was biased in a way we didn't intend, so we at CCP have to reverse some of the damage, because we can." Then you can follow it up with "Tech is hilariously broken too, so we're going to fix that next."
If we find the scope of the situation requires remediation then yes that would be something like the statement I would make. :) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1563
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Posted - 2012.06.23 13:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same.
Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest.
Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists". "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1569
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it?
Me.
Xhagen had no access to any information and is not involved in the investigative process. You can basically use any article written about this thus far for toilet paper as anything contained within the articles is fantasy invented by the bloggers writing the articles. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1569
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :)
That would be remarkably stupid. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.
I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Lexmana wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.
I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX Abusing the game on a scale that can break it is not a security issue? game wasn't abused to the extent of breaking it, the dudes involved told CCP about the manipulation and stopped it. it was a programming issue.
Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1576
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Vile rat wrote:Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :) That would be remarkably stupid. why? the ferrogel exploit went on for at least 1.5 years without CCP interference seems like one can keep these things going for quite some time as long as one doesn't overdo it (as goons did in this case) and tbh the cost of a few accounts isn't much of a deterrent considering the potential rewards. My interpretation is that the jewbal guys hoped they would get to keep part of the proceeds as long as they are open about what they did, don't try to launder any of the wealth they gained through this mechanic and make sure they are the first ones to blow the whistle (see ev0ke example). But when the choice is between "make crazy profit for a few weeks, blow the whistle and get the proceeds subsequently removed" and "make steady profit for several months, launder the proceeds and get your account eventually banned" the choice isn't hard.
In the scenario you paint the punishment would be significantly more severe. I can't speak to the ferrogel exploit as I didn't work here at the time. I can only speak to what I'm responsible for. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1588
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game.
By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1591
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. Aryth had unrelated datacores pulled from his inventory, c/d? CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Well of course you are within your rights, it's your game. SOE was entirely within their rights when they deployed NGE, too.
That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1591
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed. The difference is that all of the components of this alleged exploit were working exactly as designed. You've always been able to manipulate the market. Shooting ships to get LP for the value of their cargo was what was stated on the devblog regarding the FW changes. So was upgrading the FW systems with LP to get lower prices from the LP store. The only thing that wasn't intended was a combination of all of these factors. This is entirely different from duping ferrogel, where it was never designed you could react stuff without using the inputs. It's closer to the insurance fraud scheme, where a working design (shoot ship, get insurance payout) was "abused" because you got more than the ship was worth.
If we make a correction it clearly wasn't what we intended. You're not manipulating the price so much as taking advantage of time lapses in the calculation of value which pins a different currency to a seldom-changing somewhat arbitrary number that you can set. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1596
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care.
We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1596
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Benedic wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit. An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit. I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players.
Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it.
If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1603
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Haquer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Benedic wrote:I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits. I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards". We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit. An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit. I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players. Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it. If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem. You didn't give back the assets/isk that they sunk into "printing isk" (that they got from other players so they, in effect, printed no isk whatsoever). So no, they're not at the state prior to printing, and they were, in fact, punished.
and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1603
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Posted - 2012.06.23 14:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods. When you do the devblog on this, could you be clear what is/isn't allowed with the system, going forward? I think it's pretty clear that what was done here won't be allowed going forward (manipulating a price, then using that manipulated price), but as long as this mechanism is in the game there's going to be edge cases where you can make a profit essentially converting items into LP, though in much less crazy game-breaking ways.
You know as well as I do that I can't conceive of every potential future scenario to clearly lay out the lines and requesting that is really bad forum lawyering. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1603
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Prop Wash wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay
Ok cool so why don't you just close this thread then
ugh you've called my bluff I can't close the thread :( "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1612
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is.
When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1612
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: You know as well as I do that I can't conceive of every potential future scenario to clearly lay out the lines and requesting that is really bad forum lawyering.
I'm not asking you to lay down rules you'll be held to, and I'm fully aware that if you made a general "this is allowed" statement for something and then I found a way to generate absurd amounts of LP from it that you'd look poorly on it and trying to rules-lawyer my way out of it wouldn't work. I'm not trying to trick you or anything or ask you do it here since I'm sure this requires a lot of thought, I'm just genuinely interested in what will generally be allowed/not allowed going forward.
I'll try to give some guidance in the blog once the investigation's done but what you're asking for can be a bit difficult. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1612
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Prop Wash wrote:like what is even going to be the purpose of this thread if when anyone actually tries to discuss the topic of the thread we have someone with an official CCP title saying "you don't know what you're talking about get out," what could the purpose of this thread be besides inciting conflict between CCP employees and EVE players
I saw one guy trying to say what happened to individuals which is something we never discuss in any thread and that's what I responded to. Let's relax on being overdramatic. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1617
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first.
It is absolutely true. It's even mentioned in the OP. That's not the entirety of the exploit of course but it does increase the damage window. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1617
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dancing Tree wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market. If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game?
You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1623
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It is not always apparent what is a flaw in the code and what is a flaw in the design. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, as in the ferogel dupe. A variety of now-defunct GARPA projects relied on flaws in the code, yes, we knew it, you fixed it, it's done. This, however, does not look like a flaw in the code. This does not look like code being pushed into an edge case where it goes for a variable that has not been initialized and instead picks up old junk that just so happens to not be junk. We've been there, this doesn't smell like that. The code didn't default into a case where it unexpectedly decides to calculate an EVE-wide 90 day moving average. That was a design error, not an implementation error. And design errors are fair game.
Flaw in code was a bad way of saying things v0v You're correct that the code was doing what it was written to do. However when the new mechanic was introduced a system was being leveraged to determine the value of a currency that was not built for that purpose and that's what caused this. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1623
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first. To expand on this: The problem here had nothing to do with timing. It had to do with items that have no market volume, because they are useless, and yet are available from the Faction Warfare store. For example: Let's say there is an item, which I'll call 'Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r' for the sake of simplicity. This item has literally no use in the game except allowing the pilot who has it fitted to always efficiently complete every z0r chain he sees. Because few people care about this ability, the market price of this item languishes around 5 million ISK, with about 100 of them actually being traded per month. The Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r, meanwhile, is available from LP stores for 5 million ISK and 5000 LP. This makes it extremely unprofitable to buy with LP. But, now let's say that I take advantage of the item's low market volume to increase its average price. I do this by buying 5,000 of the 44-z0r Boondoggle (from the LP store, naturally), putting them on the market for 500M ISK apiece, and then buying out my own sell order. This costs me a tiny amount of ISK in the form of broker fees, as well as 25B ISK to get the material initially. But now the average price of that item is just under 500M ISK, since my own sales (to myself) utterly dominate the normal market volume of the Boondoggle in question. Now all of a sudden the worth of this item is 500M ISK. That means that for each Boondoggle I blow up, I get 50,000 LP. Basically I can now buy 50,000 LP for the cost of 5M ISK and 5,000 LP invested. (This is 111.11 ISK per LP, right around the actual value cited in Aryth's article.) Now then, what is the takeaway from my explanation? The takeaway is that there is no timing issue like Sreegs is saying. The market value of that item isn't affected by me repeatedly blowing it up for profit. It still has no use and it still isn't being sold on the market. I couldn't do this to a normal item, because the sales volume on the normal market would make my attempt at manipulation invisible. This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem. It is a design flaw. Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)
How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way? "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1623
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It is not always apparent what is a flaw in the code and what is a flaw in the design. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, as in the ferogel dupe. A variety of now-defunct GARPA projects relied on flaws in the code, yes, we knew it, you fixed it, it's done. This, however, does not look like a flaw in the code. This does not look like code being pushed into an edge case where it goes for a variable that has not been initialized and instead picks up old junk that just so happens to not be junk. We've been there, this doesn't smell like that. The code didn't default into a case where it unexpectedly decides to calculate an EVE-wide 90 day moving average. That was a design error, not an implementation error. And design errors are fair game. Flaw in code was a bad way of saying things v0v You're correct that the code was doing what it was written to do. However when the new mechanic was introduced a system was being leveraged to determine the value of a currency that was not built for that purpose and that's what caused this. Only because a developer decided to include a value that the players can move, which in retrospect was a terribly bad idea. The math worked exactly as designed.
Nobody's denying that here whatsoever. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1623
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:There are people coding what their design leader tells them to. There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan There's a test server There are bug hunters There is players feedback (hohoho) Then you decide to implement "stuff" Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above. Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed? What the heck?
Nobody has been penalized "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1627
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones. The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones. edit: or it will drop out when the spoofed transactions leave the 90 day window. However you can trivially do some more to keep the price at normal.
That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1627
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem.
It is a design flaw.
Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.) How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way? It takes as long as CCP wants it to take. In this case I understand that your boys settled on automatic 1/week index updates referring to a 3-month market average. But it doesn't matter when CCP chooses to update the market price -- as soon as they do, the item is available for abuse. Furthermore, the market index STAYS THAT WAY just as long as the manipulator in question WANTS it to stay that way, because the item in question has no normal market volume to correct said index. This is the core of what makes this possible. It isn't a timing issue, it is an issue with using market price indices in a market where not every item has appropriate sales velocity. CCP Sreegs wrote:Nobody has been penalized The problem is that you guys unevenly nuked a bunch of assets (including some that weren't connected) and didn't open any channels of communication to the Faction Five before or after you did so. The first official communication was your post about it being a stopgap measure, nearly 24 hours after the fact. You can see where that might look bad, and make the players involved (who freely shared all of their information with you) a little bit upset.
We didn't nuke anything. Shared information post exploit is appreciated but let's not pretend this was shared with us prior to being taken advantage of.
What we took and what we'll be doing with it etc. are matters between us and the people who had the assets, not the forum community. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1627
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.
Well, they stick around a lot longer without you needing to re-spoof the price. But if I want to abuse the z0r Kazanir mentioned, it's not hard to take some time out of my busy schedule of blowing up scads of them to sell another 1000 to myself at hideously inflated prices. I mean I'm blowing them up all day, I can easily keep the transactions going to keep the price inflated.
Certainly but I can only refer to the system that actually exists today. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1627
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:45:00 -
[31] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.
I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.
That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1629
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:48:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.
stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz (edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)
it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused
playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch Edit: To be clear, you are essentially right. The damage needed fixing, period. In my opinion, what CCP should have done was: 1. Freeze all the accounts with a 7-day suspension. 2. IMMEDIATELY send e-mails to all of the players affected saying something like: "Hey guys, What you did was pretty creative and lots of us think it was cool. Furthermore, we owe you a thank you for coming clean about it. Nevertheless it was a clear design flaw and we can't allow this scale of damage to the economy to remain. Because of that we're locking your accounts for investigation and we plan to remove most of the ISK/assets gained through this infinite loop. Our goal here isn't to punish you but to remove the majority of the damage that would have been caused. Until our investigation is finished the accounts will have to remain locked but we'll compensate you for the account time." 3. Immediately post the same thing on the forums in press-release form. 4. Have PR flunkies saying the same thing to the press. No one really is disputing that they do need to fix the economic damage, but they are going about it hamfistedly, with poor public communication, conflicting statements (Xhagen and Manifest talking to the press.)
What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1629
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody has been penalized
CCP Sreegs wrote: That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.
Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
Hows that for hearsay.
When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1629
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
Istyn wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it. So why do you deploy stuff before fixing it then blame the players and/or break the game?
You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1629
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:There are people coding what their design leader tells them to. There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan There's a test server There are bug hunters There is players feedback (hohoho) Then you decide to implement "stuff" Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above. Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed? What the heck? Nobody has been penalized so theyre LYING about the 5 trillion. Ah do they get banned now for rumor mongering as per the OTHER part of that new rule?
If they did it wouldn't be any of your business. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.
maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons not the other war round We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened. I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone. That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it. Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?
This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
Um, Sreegs, that's not quite accurate. I hate to sound like I'm defending these idiots, but CCP has, in the past, made some very public examples on occasion.
Ok then I'll just speak for myself and say the same thing. :) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:59:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tyrion Struan wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones. The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones. edit: or it will drop out when the spoofed transactions leave the 90 day window. However you can trivially do some more to keep the price at normal. That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider. I think, at this time, you should stop doing anything. You are being rash and unthoughtful. What has really happened? A very small group of guys, already filthy rich, and with a better understanding of game mechanics than the dev team, sat down and found a possible flaw in game mechanics. They used this. Precisely the way all CCP commercial say that we should use game mechanics to their full extent. You give us the game, we run with it. Precisely the way Soundwave has been harping about how he loves seeing what we can do with the game that you guys never thought of. If you don't like the way we use the mechanics, fix it. That is fine. But it stops there. What's been done, that didn't violate the EULA, stays. This, after all, is what eve is about. Right now Sreegs you are dealing with a threadnought because you couldn't step back and let the game go on. So they made an extra few bill, who cares? Good on them for being better at eve than CCP. Instead of rolling with it, make a PR stunt out of it, congratulating the players that beat you at your own game, you are now being the heavy handed CCP that couldn't let the sandbox be the sandbox you've promised. You are walking a thin rhetorical line (let's be honest, there is no content in your argument, only rhetoric) , trying to defend why using game mechanics you knowingly implemented in a way you didn't foresee and intend is suddenly an abuse. And an abuse apparently enough to warrant you stepping in and taking stuff away. Sometimes Sreegs its better to step back and let things roll on. Had you really nothing you'd rather spend midsummers doing than dealing with the fallout of a bad call?
This thread was 115 pages before we did anything. What we did do wasn't communicated to you on purpose. Thanks for the advice though buddy. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
This is a policy flaw. First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn. Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!" If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm.
No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point.
Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1633
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.
Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about. Sreegs just misunderstands the mechanic and persists in thinking it is a timing issue when in reality it is a design flaw arising from a market volume issue. Oh well.
I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1639
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.
This is a policy flaw. First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn. Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!" If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm. No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point. Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault. well if the investigation is still on going, there is not much you can say really, so any communication you give then can be drastically turn on its head since investigation has not concluded!
ugh you've found the fatal flaw in my statement :( "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1639
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers. Propaganda campaign makes it sound like we're coordinating our posts in some jabber channel. We're not. Are we? Someone invite me to the channel, if we are.
If what you're attributing to me is clearly not what I've said then I'm not sure how to phrase it but insert whatever word pleases you most there instead. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1639
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.
That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.
Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it? This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact. no no, from what you implied, is that you had known about the flaws from around the time it was released, and that you had already been working on a fix for it, or at least before all this went down. or am I misunderstanding what you said?
I didn't imply since release. I implied prior to being notified. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1640
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb.
I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1640
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same. Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists". In other words, "assets have been impounded pending further investigation." Which is what we thought. Might have been a little cleaner if that had been announced yesterday though.
I don't disagree. We should have notified the people we did things to. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1640
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tallon Sylph wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. Not working as intended? Oh my. Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do.
If that ever happens I'll agree with you. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1640
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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ISD Stensson
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
19
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Posted - 2012.06.24 14:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
Many thanks to all participating in this discussion. The attention of developers was successfully involved in the matter. However, at present the thread started to go aside from topic. To avoid a further contamination of a thread, I close it. Once again thanks to all participants for constructive posting. ISD Stensson Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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