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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
What is CCP's vision of Supercaps in the future? If I understand the statement of CCP Soundwave correctly https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=72743&p=2 CCP intends to nerf titans' tracking into oblivion so that Supercaps are only usefull for structure shooting, bridging and against capitals.
Here is the problem:
- Dreads can shoot structure for less money - Capitals are extremly rarely used in fleet fights against subcaps since dreads can't kill BSs and Triage Carriers can't be remote repped so that no dreads or supercaps are needed to break their tank. There is no point to risk supercaps to kill a couple of carriers. Neither makes it much sense to risk your supercaps to hotdrop some dreads that try to siege something. A fleet of 100 subcaps can easily do it as well.
Consequence:
- Supercaps will simply become useless. - Many people who have invested a lot of money and skillpoints will be pissed - Fleet fights will become even bigger and laggy, even with TiDi - Null space will become even more all about numbers which is simply stupid. With TiDi even the worst Logi wing can safe everyone as long as he knows where the broadcast button is. With TiDi people can reship infinitely since they have enough time to travel back.
A by far better solution for the problem would be to limit the mobility/ power projection of supercapitals. This will make them easier killable and less usefull in conflicts, but still something that can influence the outcome of a battle if they arrive in time (which is something a 60b ship should be able to do). |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
77
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Triage carriers are useless?!?!?! - Pretty sure RnK would beg to differ, and normal carriers are pretty damm handy as well.
Also F&I is that way -----------> (since y'know supers are a feature and you are discussing an idea about them) Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
51
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Supers as an ISK sink was a nice idea. |
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:Triage carriers are useless?!?!?! - Pretty sure RnK would beg to differ, and normal carriers are pretty damm handy as well.
Also F&I is that way -----------> (since y'know supers are a feature and you are discussing an idea about them) RnK? We are not talking about small- to medscale fights and supercaps would be useless is such fights as well.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
1893
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
The goal is simply to force superfleets to fly with support and stop them from being effective weapons against subcap fleets. The first round of changes didn't achieve this, so they're going to get changed and changed and changed again until that goal is finally reached. I agree with this goal, but I'm less convinced they'll achieve it with just a tracking nerf to titans or that's the best solution to the issue.
Your mobility solution doesn't address the problems in any way though and won't achieve that goal. It will turn them to more of a defensive tool. It just means, that more often than not you can defend with them backing you up, but you'll have to attack against them without your own to even up the playing field. So it's not a solution and just retains the current problem, while shifting the game toward favoring defensive strategies. Overall I'd say it makes the situation even worse than it already is.
Your removal solution is stupid and not worth serious consideration.
As for the consequenses:
-Supercaps won't become useless, they will just not be very good at killing subcaps. - Many people will be pissed, but so what? Nerfs happen and your money spent or skillpoints invested don't matter at all in the decision to nerf something. The number of players affected is also very small compared to pretty much every other nerf ever done in the game and the change makes for a better overall game, meaning many more people welcome the changes. -Lag is no reason to keep gamebreaking ships or features in their current state. -The pure numbers game doesn't always favor the old entrenched alliances, but the supercap numbers game does. I'd rather play a game where a swarm of newbies can shake up the map over the current game.
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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
-Supercaps won't become useless, they will just not be very good at killing subcaps.
Would you please explain this :D What will they be usefull for? Structure shooting and bridging? Didn't I say exactly that? :D
Quote: -The pure numbers game doesn't always favor the old entrenched alliances, but the supercap numbers game does. I'd rather play a game where a swarm of newbies can shake up the map over the current game.
How that? White Noise probably still has a shitload of supercaps and still they are losing to goons due to fail cascade. Raiden on the other hand is rather new in the region but has huge problems to defend themselve against goons without supercaps. In order to gather a huge number of players you will have to give them something in return. Entrenched alliances can give them sanctums, new alliances can't do that.
Your arguments do not make sense when you look at the empirical facts. |
Angel HUN
Spricer Raiden.
11
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
While its easy to document when a titan hits a target and blaps it (killmails) you don't see how often they miss (A LOT).
(Credit to Leboe from FHC) |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
571
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Most people in EVE use word 'useless' as a bashful euphemism for 'no longer overpowered'.
I, for one, don't see how making supers rely on proper support and screening can be considered as a nerf. It's a boost, as it clearly results in making them much more interesting in terms of gameplay.
Also, sure, they are to be easily killable and vulnerable. That's the whole point. Extra power should always result in extra vulnerability. This principle works just fine for battleships and dreads. The same should be applied to carriers and supers, while atm it's not. Fon Revedhort for CSM 7 |
Angel HUN
Spricer Raiden.
11
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
You cannot field supers without support... ALREADY...
Fon Revedhort wrote:Most people in EVE use word 'useless' as a bashful euphemism for 'no longer overpowered'.
I, for one, don't see how making supers rely on proper support and screening can be considered as a nerf. It's a boost, as it clearly results in making them much more interesting in terms of gameplay.
Also, sure, they are to be easily killable and vulnerable. That's the whole point. Extra power should always result in extra vulnerability. This principle works just fine for battleships and dreads. The same should be applied to carriers and supers, while atm it's not.
This is the current state of Super use. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
571
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Btw, when are they removing that pesky EW immunity? Fon Revedhort for CSM 7 |
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Razzor Death
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
97
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Angel HUN wrote:You cannot field supers without support... ALREADY...
hahahaha like you did against test every time during the Branch campaign.
outstanding |
testobjekt
Creative Accounting Institute
84
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Whats the role of a titan?
Well if you follow the CCP personality test its the ship Empire Bulider flys (http://www.eveonline.com/sandbox/empire-builder/) which makes it clear that titans are seen more as a strategic tool then a combat vessel.
Noone will argue the usefullness of a titanbridges, which allow you to protect power in a far greater area. Combined with the importance of combat logistics due to tidi, having a titan/a few titans will make every force a lot more effective especially if they are on the offensive (defenders can have jumpbridges).
Then titans offer gigantic gangboosters. A titan 5 Erebus pilot will increase the ehp of his fleets armor tank by 37.5%, a Ragnarok will reduce the sig-radius by 37.5%.
I see ofc that Alliances like Raiden do not need a titan as force mulitpilier, they want it as force provider. But thats not the role this ship has. Sucks to be you. |
Xyrcaryn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.02.24 14:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
John Maynard Keynes wrote: CCP intends to nerf titans' tracking into oblivion so that Supercaps are only usefull for structure shooting, bridging and against capitals.
isn't that the idea how it should be instead of 'supercaps kill everything'? |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
77
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Having one ship that can blap everything is simply put, anti-EVE.
also useless and not over powered are not the same thing, and you are correct super caps do need a support fleet, the problem is that currently said support fleet it a fleet of more super caps. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
Ziester alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Angel HUN wrote:You cannot field supers without support... ALREADY...
You can't kill a fleet of 255 supers. It's impossible because the server will not support squishing enough non-supers into a system to even try.
John Maynard Keynes wrote:[quote=Destination SkillQueue]. Entrenched alliances can give them sanctums, new alliances can't do that.
Entrenched alliances can also subsidize supercapital acquisition. New alliances don't pop out of empire with 100s of titans. |
Tore Vest
246
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Learn to play eve.... and.. stop crying.. Every decent pilot knows how to not be hit by a titan A real highsec carebear. |
Aylat
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
In return to nerfing Titans they should make structure immune to sub caps (with the exception of structure in hi sec). |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
77
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tore Vest wrote:Learn to play eve.... and.. stop crying.. Every decent pilot knows how to not be hit by a titan Really? So when a lone Titan was popping a fleet of BCs all orbiting at the maximum transversal allowed by their guns (AB not MWD), what exactly would your advice be ('run away' doesn't count). Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
Tore Vest
247
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote: Really? So when a lone Titan was popping a fleet of BCs all orbiting at the maximum transversal allowed by their guns (AB not MWD), what exactly would your advice be ('run away' doesn't count).
Those who doing that is safe from beeing hit.... But... There is allways someone that stops....or start to burn directly towards or from the titans... Getting bumped... whatever And when blown up to a dread size with tp... they are toast.
Why do you orbit a buch of supers ? You want to kill them... When supers kills you back.... Buuhuu.... CCP.... titans are killing uuus....
Edit: A lone titan killing a fleet of bc..... bullshit A real highsec carebear. |
Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
341
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Posted - 2012.02.24 15:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
John Maynard Keynes wrote:A fleet of 100 subcaps can easily do it as well.
That's the theory.
The reality is that there are very few alliances capable of regularly fielding 100+ man fleets. So you want to turn EVE into a game of Superpower A vs Superpower B only? How will small alliances take sov? How will small alliances engage in (relatively) small battles, with capitals/supercapitals proving their worth by bringing a decisive advantage over the guy that brought a couple dreadnaughts only - provided they don't in turn get hot-dropped?
John Maynard Keynes wrote:Another solution would be to simply remove them from the game and reimburse the people who own them.
Just because you don't have a shiny toy doesn't mean that everyone else should get theirs taken away. Be creative and figure out a way around the system instead of trying to change the system.
While I agree that at some point something will have to be done because we seem to be gaining supercapitals a lot faster than we are losing them and when everyone is flying around in a Nyx or Titan there will not be much point to EVE. Supercaps were meant to be rare but the devs have underestimated the drive of players to have as many of these magic carrots as they can. However just taking them away from everyone doesn't make for a fun game either. |
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
12
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Posted - 2012.02.24 16:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote: Really? So when a lone Titan was popping a fleet of BCs all orbiting at the maximum transversal allowed by their guns (AB not MWD), what exactly would your advice be ('run away' doesn't count).
My advice would be stop exaggerating.
If, IF; that really was the case then those must've been shield bc's with sigs almost the size of battleships and pilots that massively suck at manageing their range and transversal and/or huginns grabbing them too. In which scenario nothing in any way broken happened.
[constructive advice; outrange them/pick setups with smaller sigs/ get better at manageing transversal/use neutralizers/increase speed/use capitals against capitals etc etc etc etc etc] |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
83
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Posted - 2012.02.24 16:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
There is no easy answer to this.
Its tank vs dps and right now there is no dps that can break the SC fleet tanking structure except bigger blobs of SC.
Maybe if damage was tracked like killmails it wouldn't be such an obsession to get the killmail. If there was an active participation tracking system rather than just an I-Win method to PvP tracking people would be less bent on getting the glorious killmail.
Track "Ioci engaged 700 unique enemies, repelling them with 2 million dps" in addition to the killmails. Then it isn't about who sucks or doesn't PvP because right now it isn't about 'Who is good' or 'Who participates'. It's about who has intell channels to the biggest blobs. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
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Posted - 2012.02.24 16:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:While I agree that at some point something will have to be done because we seem to be gaining supercapitals a lot faster than we are losing them and when everyone is flying around in a Nyx or Titan there will not be much point to EVE. Supercaps were meant to be rare but the devs have underestimated the drive of players to have as many of these magic carrots as they can. Yeah, what will happen will be each major alliance having a First Fleet composed of 100 titans or so and 150 Supercarriers or so, and then all the lesser players will join second, third fleet etc with dreadnaught/carriers and whatnot. Probably battlecruisers would be good, as the titans would be able to kill battleships. Dreadnaughts are for adding DPS against enemy titans.
Though probably all you'd do is hotdrop 250 supercaps on some new alliance with only 10 titans, eh.
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1187
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Posted - 2012.02.24 16:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Damnit CCP!
Your doing it wrong!
Ban sub caps from the game! |
baltec1
694
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Posted - 2012.02.24 17:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
John Maynard Keynes wrote: How that? White Noise probably still has a shitload of supercaps and still they are losing to goons due to fail cascade. Raiden on the other hand is rather new in the region but has huge problems to defend themselve against goons without supercaps. In order to gather a huge number of players you will have to give them something in return. Entrenched alliances can give them sanctums, new alliances can't do that.
Your arguments do not make sense when you look at the empirical facts.
WN did not put up any kind of fight. The one time they tried the leader "forgot to set his alarm" so they all say there playing with themselves while we burned their empire to the ground.
BOB (3 times), NC (before the cascade) the russians many many times, MC, ASCN, Tri multiple times ect all had the biggest blob in their time and were all beaten. |
Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
341
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Posted - 2012.02.24 17:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Though probably all you'd do is hotdrop 250 supercaps on some new alliance with only 10 titans, eh.
I think Pandemic Legion's legal team would be all over you if you did that, they have the patent on that I believe |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
161
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Posted - 2012.02.24 17:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Though probably all you'd do is hotdrop 250 supercaps on some new alliance with only 10 titans, eh.
I think Pandemic Legion's legal team would be all over you if you did that, they have the patent on that I believe Don't be silly. They haven't hotdropped 10 titans that I've heard of.
Now they've hotdropped frigate roams. And hotdropped titans on welpfleet hurricanes. But they're pretty cautious with their titans, once apparently their blob ran off when charged by a welpfleet. (Possibly because of the danger of being tackled and hotdropped by a ton of dreadnaughts I guess?).
You would probably get to where any real engagement would be trying to bait the enemy titans somewhere so that you can drop a ton of dreadnaughts on them. If successful, your blob will be at a significant advantage to their blob and you can go about bashing POS in relative safety.
baltec1 wrote:BOB (3 times), NC (before the cascade) the russians many many times, MC, ASCN, Tri multiple times ect all had the biggest blob in their time and were all beaten. It isn't good to depend too heavily on a single arm of decision. Though if you have an overpowered arm of decision, you should use it as much as possible while it's overpowered.
It would suck to be an alliance (over)depending heavily on turret titans and they somehow got nerfed just as an angry group of people started throwing dreadnaughts around like they were rifters (in comparison). Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
baltec1
694
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Posted - 2012.02.24 17:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: It isn't good to depend too heavily on a single arm of decision. Though if you have an overpowered arm of decision, you should use it as much as possible while it's overpowered.
It would suck to be an alliance (over)depending heavily on turret titans and they somehow got nerfed just as an angry group of people started throwing dreadnaughts around like they were rifters (in comparison).
Good sir, surely you cant be saying that the forces of the anti blue anti coalition coalition rely too much upon titans and have no other plans! |
ViRUS Pottage
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
3
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Posted - 2012.02.24 17:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
The problem isn't the balancing of the ships; it's how available they are. Titans should be able to sit there and plaster a fleet of idiots. The problem is that a group of 2-3 alliance can drop 80 of them. That's when it becomes an issue.
The problem arose when motherships and titans started to show up on the open market. People are becoming too rich in the game, and as such 16-20b is nothing for the average 5 year old playing vet any more. There are single players that are hoarding over 200billion ISK to themselves that they haven't gained from emptying alliance wallets.
The price of supercarriers and titans need to be increased massively. But this can't be done without making people cry about it because those who do have them just made a hell of a lot of money. It's too late to fix the problem now unless some sort of mechanic comes along that limits the number usage of them.
e: So it's either that or just make them totally useless. |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
670
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Posted - 2012.02.24 17:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Isk is a perfectly valid balancing benchmarch
We have some guys with over a trillion isk in their wallet in GSF. They should be able to alpha 10 titans at once by pressing a button.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
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