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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:16:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
You continue to ignore the fact that salvage can only exist as a result of a player destroying a ship.
Well that's nonsense. You've clearly never been to a magnetometric site. Who owns the stuff in the mag sites?
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:17:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr
Ohshtz. What is this???
Look it's a ninja...kill it quick!!!!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:19:00 -
[393]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 It was never about the mission pay for me as I don't salvage anyway. The point the op was making is that its bad game design that also causes confusion. That much I think should be clear. And I have nothing against salvagers..yes,fix it (somehow)and let them do their thing.
Tbh, I think you're giving the OP too much credit when it comes to the cause and effect of that design and confusionà
àbut that's just me being mean and surly. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:20:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: Skex Relbore
You continue to ignore the fact that salvage can only exist as a result of a player destroying a ship.
Well that's nonsense. You've clearly never been to a magnetometric site. Who owns the stuff in the mag sites?
Good question,I've never been in one. What color is the wreck?
I would tip on white.
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Xzar Fyrarr
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:20:00 -
[395]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr
Ohshtz. What is this???
Look it's a ninja...kill it quick!!!!
Wheres the ninja!?
------------------------------------------------ One Cannot Fully Appreciate Peace Until They Have Experienced True Pain. -------------------------------------------------
- Xzar Fyrarr ; |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:24:00 -
[396]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Kara Sharalien Well that's nonsense. You've clearly never been to a magnetometric site. Who owns the stuff in the mag sites?
Good question,I've never been in one. What color is the wreck?
There is no wreckà (well, not in the normal sense anyway ù some of them have wreck models in the form of LCOs). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:25:00 -
[397]
Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr
Ohshtz. What is this???
Look it's a ninja...kill it quick!!!!
Wheres the ninja!?
Running with his tail between his legs because he got flagged for stealing my stuffz if I had it my way
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:26:00 -
[398]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Running with his tail between his legs because he got flagged for stealing my stuffz if I had it my way
You haven't come across TEARS I take it? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Awesome Possum
Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:26:00 -
[399]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Awesome Possum
or... just leave it the way it is, because it works fine.
It doesn't work fine..even for the salvager. Why shouldn't he be able to tractor beam an empty wreck that belongs to no one?
Because CCP said so, I thought we already covered this? ♥
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:29:00 -
[400]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 27/04/2011 05:30:50
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Awesome Possum
or... just leave it the way it is, because it works fine.
It doesn't work fine..even for the salvager. Why shouldn't he be able to tractor beam an empty wreck that belongs to no one?
Because CCP said so, I thought we already covered this?
Who are you and when did you pop in again?
We didn't cover anything.Read the thread how about that. CCP says a lot when the day is long but if the game mechanic alows you to do otherwise its bad game design which was somewhat the point of the op.
So start on page one and try reading the op at least.
Edit:I don't have images enabled but I'm sure I didn't miss much
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:35:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Running with his tail between his legs because he got flagged for stealing my stuffz if I had it my way
You haven't come across TEARS I take it?
I've come accros two ninjas in my time. One was while I was with a corp doing missions..he lived.
Another was in my mission and I called a corp mate who warped in with a tempest and broke his neck with one shot.
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Awesome Possum
Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:37:00 -
[402]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Awesome Possum
or... just leave it the way it is, because it works fine.
It doesn't work fine..even for the salvager. Why shouldn't he be able to tractor beam an empty wreck that belongs to no one?
Because CCP said so, I thought we already covered this?
Who are you and when did you pop in again?
We didn't cover anything.Read the thread how about that. CCP says a lot when the day is long but if the game mechanic alows you to do otherwise its bad game design which was somewhat the point of the op.
So start on page one and try reading the op at least.
Except for the part where the game mechanic does NOT allow you to do otherwise.
CCP says salvage is free for all, CCP says salvage does not exist until a salvage module successfully cycles, CCP says for the purpose of SALVAGE (i.e. activating a salvage module [not tractor beam or any other module] on a wreck) wrecks belong to no one.
We are not talking about loot, we are not talking about bounties, we are not talking about player wrecks vs mission runner wrecks vs every other kind of rat wrecks. Its about salvaging and the actual wreck they come from. ♥
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:41:00 -
[403]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 27/04/2011 05:42:48
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Except for the part where the game mechanic does NOT allow you to do otherwise.
CCP says the wreck belongs to no one but yet you cant tractor beam it. If you shoot same wreck you get concorded. This looks to me as if what ccp says and what you can do are two different things.
Edit: I meant tractor beam it...
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AntiSocial
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Posted - 2011.04.27 09:45:00 -
[404]
why not add a time that salvage is locked after the missions say 15 minutes like the agression. and locked until the mission is over. ,y theroy in this is your on a mission that was given to you to you should have a bit of time b4 any one else knows about the mission so wreks should be locked for only that person for at least 15 minutes. after the 15 minutes my theroy for this is agents talk amongst them selves and shoot thier mouths off at some point about the days work... a pod pilot overhears and see's it as an opertunity. thought this wont stop what happens now...your in the middle of a mission some punk starts salvaging while your in the middle of the mission.. this is unfair to the person doing the mission... how ever belt rats and miners that have wreks strewn about things should stay the same for... just my 2 cents.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.04.27 10:18:00 -
[405]
Originally by: AntiSocial why not add a time that salvage is locked after the missions say 15 minutes like the agression. and locked until the mission is over. ,y theroy in this is your on a mission that was given to you to you should have a bit of time b4 any one else knows about the mission so wreks should be locked for only that person for at least 15 minutes. after the 15 minutes my theroy for this is agents talk amongst them selves and shoot thier mouths off at some point about the days work... a pod pilot overhears and see's it as an opertunity. thought this wont stop what happens now...your in the middle of a mission some punk starts salvaging while your in the middle of the mission.. this is unfair to the person doing the mission... how ever belt rats and miners that have wreks strewn about things should stay the same for... just my 2 cents.
Why add any kind of timer to it? Currently salvaging is free for all, is working just fine and is perfectly in line with the intended design. You are just basicly proposing a nerf to salvaging and a boost to mission running for no apparent reason other than your own feelings of entitlement. If you want to to boost the rewards for missioning, please provide good reasoning for it, instead of just relying on your personal feelings to justify it.
I'd also like to point out two things. If you want to include salvaging to mission rewards by the way of denying it for anyone else by the way of game mechanics, other mission rewards will likely be nerfed to keep the guaranteed rewards for missioning at the current level. It's also very un-EVE like, so it has almost 0 chance of ever happening.
The other point you need to consider is, that if the salvager just gets flagged when salvaging "your wrecks", almost nothing will change for organized salvagers. All that is going to change is that you can shoot them and if you do, you will get killed in your expensive missioning ship soon after and make a I quit ragepost about it on the forums. Getting aggression flagged never stops people from doing those deeds, it more often than not just gets the people who react with strong emotions to the act killed.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 10:33:00 -
[406]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Why add any kind of timer to it? Currently salvaging is free for all, is working just fine and is perfectly in line with the intended design.
Tippia is this your alt? No it's not in line with anything. If it was the salvager would be able to tractor beam it like I said. And it's not working just fine because no other profession in eve is protected by concord making it risk free.
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue You are just basicly proposing a nerf to salvaging and a boost to mission running for no apparent reason other than your own feelings of entitlement. If you want to to boost the rewards for missioning, please provide good reasoning for it, instead of just relying on your personal feelings to justify it.
No one is talking about buffing missions and should this be such an undesired side effect to the fix, as mentioned before there are other ways to balance that out.
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue I'd also like to point out two things. If you want to include salvaging to mission rewards by the way of denying it for anyone else by the way of game mechanics, other mission rewards will likely be nerfed to keep the guaranteed rewards for missioning at the current level. It's also very un-EVE like, so it has almost 0 chance of ever happening.
Again..a risk free profession is not very eve like either
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue All that is going to change is that you can shoot them and if yoyou will get killed in your expensive missioning ship soon afteru do, and make a I quit ragepost about it on the forums. Getting aggression flagged never stops people from doing those deeds, it more often than not just gets the people who react with strong emotions to the act killed.
Another fortune teller Why don't you give me the lottery numbers for next week? There are endless ways such a situation could turn out. Being a ninja salvager does not by far mean you will automaticly win.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.04.27 10:34:00 -
[407]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 27/04/2011 05:42:48
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Except for the part where the game mechanic does NOT allow you to do otherwise.
CCP says the wreck belongs to no one but yet you cant tractor beam it. If you shoot same wreck you get concorded. This looks to me as if what ccp says and what you can do are two different things.
Edit: I meant tractor beam it...
Wasn't the reason for this already covered?
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 10:40:00 -
[408]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 27/04/2011 10:46:09
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 27/04/2011 05:42:48
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Except for the part where the game mechanic does NOT allow you to do otherwise.
CCP says the wreck belongs to no one but yet you cant tractor beam it. If you shoot same wreck you get concorded. This looks to me as if what ccp says and what you can do are two different things.
Edit: I meant tractor beam it...
Wasn't the reason for this already covered?
Mag's damnit! Weren't you supposed to be on my side?
Where was this covered and what exactly is it that you are talking about?
Oh you mean because theres a make pretend can inside of it? I wouldn't call that covered. I would call that role playing because I can see no can nor does the wreck say anything about one. If you salvage the wreck before I loot it then yes,a can spawns which you can even hear spawn. Not only that but when you salvage an empty wreck there's no sign of a can anywhere.
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Hana Steelethorne
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Posted - 2011.04.27 10:46:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Akita T He can't be a thief since the SALVAGE is not yours yet. You have to do extra work to obtain the salvage, and you haven't done it yet. He does become a thief and you can shoot him if he LOOTS the wreck though. But I would strongly encourage against doing that. People that loot wrecks too actually WANT to get shot. If the reason is not obvious, think about it a bit (hint : aggro mechanics).
Of course, there are those ninja salvagers who specialize in baiting mission runners into firing on them only to come back with their mates and kill the missioners. No, when one has expended the effort and expense of running a mission,ALL the fruits of that labor belong to them. But CCP is more interested in fostering pointless and needless conflict between players, so this game mechanic will not change. |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 10:50:00 -
[410]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 27/04/2011 10:51:36
Originally by: Hana Steelethorne Of course, there are those ninja salvagers who specialize in baiting mission runners into firing on them only to come back with their mates and kill the missioners. No, when one has expended the effort and expense of running a mission,ALL the fruits of that labor belong to them. But CCP is more interested in fostering pointless and needless conflict between players, so this game mechanic will not change.
He can't come back with anything because as far as I know when he steals from my corp and I shoot him only he has aggro and the right to shoot back.
Not only that but my corp/fleet can shoot him too so the odds are against him really.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.04.27 11:27:00 -
[411]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Mag's
Wasn't the reason for this already covered?
Mag's damnit! Weren't you supposed to be on my side?
I'm all for hunting wabbits, I just want you to be honest in your replies.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.27 11:48:00 -
[412]
I'd love for them to change this so that you'd be flagged for salvaging.
The "free lunch" people are whining about would then become a free banquet.
Hell I'd even probing people's missions to get my slice of cake and I loathe probing!
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.04.27 12:19:00 -
[413]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Again..a risk free profession is not very eve like either [/quote
Ninja salvaging isn't risk free. Recon 3 is all that needs to be said. But, somehow insta-death probably isn't going to satisfy you. So how about the ninja when he's aggro'd by npc in the mission? Right that's not good enough for you either.
What you want is the ability to shoot the ninja "risk free". You want the ninja to be marked with aggression so that you don't get concordokkened. You want exactly what you perceive, wrongly, the ninja to have....a risk free existence while you get the excitement of shooting a ship with at most 1200ehp with your ship that's doling out +500dps and +50,000ehp with a defensive rating of +300hp/s. I'll tell you what.....you tell me when and where you typically mission. I'll come to your mission and ninja it in my old ninja ship, a Tristan. But, I won't just ninja salvage, I'll ninja loot it so you can have exactly what you're asking for. I won't even bring friends. It'll be just you and me. Hmm?
Frankly, I'm tired of these never ending whine threads about ninjas. So, I'm going to give you what you want. Care to take me up on it?
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 12:56:00 -
[414]
Originally by: Mr Kidd Ninja salvaging isn't risk free. Recon 3 is all that needs to be said. But, somehow insta-death probably isn't going to satisfy you. So how about the ninja when he's aggro'd by npc in the mission? Right that's not good enough for you either.
Recon 3 is one of a kind so good example there
Not only that but I can solo most lvl 4 missions in my daredevil. A frig is hardly in danger in a lvl 4 mission. He can easily warp out at any given time.
Originally by: Mr Kidd What you want is the ability to shoot the ninja "risk free". You want the ninja to be marked with aggression so that you don't get concordokkened. You want exactly what you perceive, wrongly, the ninja to have....a risk free existence while you get the excitement of shooting a ship with at most 1200ehp with your ship that's doling out +500dps and +50,000ehp with a defensive rating of +300hp/s.
No one is forcing you to do it in a frig either. But I'll teach you something for the future. If you would take a cruiser you would have a very good chance to kill the mission runner since they 90% of the time are tanking two ways which leaves a huge hole somewhere. So much for your 50k ehp. Take said cruiser and load em or exp drones in there and if you manage to get in orbit the mission runner is ****ed.
Originally by: Mr Kidd I'll tell you what.....you tell me when and where you typically mission. I'll come to your mission and ninja it in my old ninja ship, a Tristan. But, I won't just ninja salvage, I'll ninja loot it so you can have exactly what you're asking for. I won't even bring friends. It'll be just you and me. Hmm?
I mission in isinokka as any locator agent would be able to tell you. As far as when..add me to the buddy list and you know that too. If you manage to scan me out by all means try me. But be aware that I wont play fair as I dont see risking a billion isk ship against your 300k ship fair when I'm tanking a mission and that two ways. So don't be surprised when a corp mate/fleet member comes in and takes you out.
Good luck
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.27 12:58:00 -
[415]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Tippia is this your alt?
Don't be silly.
Quote: No it's not in line with anything.
Yes it is. Wrecks are free for all, which is in line with the design. Whether you can tractor them or not isn't really a factor ù partly because the design was made at a time when you wouldn't expect them to be tractorable, and partly because no other resource harvesting profession can tractor their sources either.
Quote: And it's not working just fine because no other profession in eve is protected by concord making it risk free.
Incorrect. All other professions are afforded the exact same protection.
Quote: No one is talking about buffing missions
Yes they are. They want to make salvage theirs without having to earn it in competition with other players. This means that, like loot, it becomes part of the mission rewards. This means that what they're asking for is a mission buff.
Quote: Again..a risk free profession is not very eve like either
It's not risk free, and it's not unique in the level of risk it has. So no. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Aeronwen Carys
Empire of Dust
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Posted - 2011.04.27 13:05:00 -
[416]
I'm stunned at how few people seem to understand the concept of salvage not belonging to you just because you shot the ship. As far as I can see there are only a few changes that need to be made.
First up if a Salvager steals your loot, the only person who should be able to shoot him is you. No-one else need be involved.
Secondly there needs to be some clarification as to exactly how wrecks, cans and cans within wrecks actually work from a technical standpoint as there seems to be some understandable confusion over it.
Other than that its just mission runners whining and wanting a boost to their earnings and a nerf to another profession. Oh and as a side note to hellfire, high sec ninja salvaging is not the only concord protected profession at all.
If someone comes in to your belt and shoots at you then concord will kill them, if someone warps into your mission and shoots you, they get concorded and if someone blows up your cans they get concorded. Your assertion that salvaging is risk free due to lack of concord stems from the simple fact that you don't understand that salvage doesn't belong to you.
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.04.27 13:19:00 -
[417]
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 27/04/2011 13:19:55
Originally by: HeIIfire11
I mission in isinokka
We're on! ;)
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.04.27 13:35:00 -
[418]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 27/04/2011 13:37:02
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys I'm stunned at how few people seem to understand the concept of salvage not belonging to you just because you shot the ship. As far as I can see there are only a few changes that need to be made.
First up if a Salvager steals your loot, the only person who should be able to shoot him is you. No-one else need be involved.
Secondly there needs to be some clarification as to exactly how wrecks, cans and cans within wrecks actually work from a technical standpoint as there seems to be some understandable confusion over it.
Other than that its just mission runners whining and wanting a boost to their earnings and a nerf to another profession. Oh and as a side note to hellfire, high sec ninja salvaging is not the only concord protected profession at all.
If someone comes in to your belt and shoots at you then concord will kill them, if someone warps into your mission and shoots you, they get concorded and if someone blows up your cans they get concorded. Your assertion that salvaging is risk free due to lack of concord stems from the simple fact that you don't understand that salvage doesn't belong to you.
First of all cool looking avatar..me likes
Second,you have a few good points as far as concord goes I guess. It depends how you look at things and what belongs to you or doesn't.
But I never asked for a mission buff although most in these threads do.I was stating my opinion about this whole thing being bad game design and I'm sticking to it. I also stated my opinion on how I would fix it if it were up to me,which it isn't.
I also know this wont change anytime soon as I am still waiting on a blaster buff along with many other things that bug the hell out of me and others. Same reasons I hardly play anymore on this account much less my main.
I'm going to put down my sword on this subject because it's been fun but it's also been beaten to death and we obviously have a lot more salvagers than I thought. No one seems to see that this mini profession is bugged but skex who understands exactly what I'm talking about.
One thing became clear is that so many people hate mission runners and I can't understand why. Because they wont play with you lol? I run mission now but I'm not what you can call a "mission runner".I have had my share in pvp and used to use this character as a source of second income when I didn't feel like putting up with the crap going on elsewhere. And I could care less about the salvage really so I'm not out for the buff either. Anyone who knows me will tell you If you ask me I'll give that and the loot to you anyday.
Also anyone who says mission running is the cream of the crop needs to go out to 0.0 or even low sec and you will see that mission running is more work than it is pay. You have to grind twice as hard to get ahead and it takes time. The only thing it has to offer is that it's pretty low risk if you know what you're doing. But the risk is no greater in 0.0 where everything you see is blue and you can rat and mission or whatever in peace. And get paid way more for doing so. So I don't even blame the mission runners for wanting their salvage tbh.
Originally by: Mr Kidd We're on! ;)
Bring it fat face
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.27 13:51:00 -
[419]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 No one seems to see that this mini profession is bugged but skex who understands exactly what I'm talking about.
No, I can certainly see that there are irregularities in the system, but the difference is rather that as I see it, fixing them will only ever work in the salvagers' favour ù otherwise they wouldn't really be fixes (and would just further contradict what CCP has stated). Also, I don't see much reason to fix it because these irregularities are so small and insignificant and because it's working just fine as it is.
Quote: One thing became clear is that so many people hate mission runners and I can't understand why.
People don't hate mission runners (wellà I don't hate myself, at least, if a sample of one is good enough for you). What people hate is greedy and overentitled mission runners who want to increase the rewards for what is already one of the most rewarding activities in highsec, and who want to do it for no good reason.
Hence all the "why:s" and "prove it" and "argue your case": because there is this vain hope that someone might have a good reason that doesn't boil down "I feel entitled to more stuff ù gimme!" And history has shown that starting out by calling salvaging "theft" is already a huge neon sign that this is what the poster actually meansà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.04.27 13:58:00 -
[420]
Went though an accel gate that was at a beacon, and saw a red container... that was new to me, had been looted though. Somebody tell me what that container was? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN! |
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