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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:11:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:18:47 Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:15:15 Hi all Eve prides themselves on been close to reality. In eve people seeme to over exploit the use of covert ops cloaks. In the real world when you talk about covert, you will discovered if you remain still within an area for too long. Almost anywhere you go there are people sitting a distance from a gate cloaked in covert ops for hours upon hours with no real punishment/consequence and all the advantages. I think this should be changed. This game is about micro and i feel that this is an area that is getting massively exploited. I therefore propose so kind of system by which a covert ops ship will uncloak after and hour or so. This would put and end to AFK cloaks for long periods of time and will force the members to marco their characters or be actively looking after them. One way to this is to add and attribute that will uncloak a covert ops after an hour of been cloaked. But this is very open for bots. Another solution is to make a sort of fuel machanism that would be expensive to run or that would only last for a good while until depletes. Another method is that as time pases, a signature of the ship gets more and more stronger and you can scan it down easier. Until the person uncloaks and recloaks again. I seriusly think that you cant simply log and stay and make strikes or monitor the system without any punishement. After all, no sort of covert is trully covert fully as in game atm. Just give us your thoughts guys on this, would appreciate it.
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Chi'kote
Serenity Ascension Eternus Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:18:00 -
[2]
How many threads do we need asking for this crap before people stop whining an realize there's nothing wrong here. As annoying as AFK cloakers are, the mechanic works as intended and shouldn't be changed. Some of those "afk" cloakers are actually enemy spies watching the area, or people looking to gank a ratter/miner, and there is no reason they shouldn't be able to. Instead of whining to have the mechanic changed to make the game easier for you, just learn to deal with it.
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Chi'kote How many threads do we need asking for this crap before people stop whining an realize there's nothing wrong here. As annoying as AFK cloakers are, the mechanic works as intended and shouldn't be changed. Some of those "afk" cloakers are actually enemy spies watching the area, or people looking to gank a ratter/miner, and there is no reason they shouldn't be able to. Instead of whining to have the mechanic changed to make the game easier for you, just learn to deal with it.
I think you can learn to macro for a change ;)
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.10.29 15:16:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/10/2009 15:16:41 you stupid ****, if you wanna whine about afk cloakers here is already a thread about it on the first page!!!
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204596
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mchief117
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Posted - 2009.10.29 15:19:00 -
[5]
while i dont agree that covert ops cloaks need a nerf , as its really the only protection blockade runners have . i do agree that there is no active way to find said ships that doesnt require huge luck in moving with in 2K of the ship. we do need a sensor system that could over 30 seconds ish force a ship to uncloak this would alert the cloaked ship that its being scaned down giving active players the chance to esscape but would find the afks that havent retreated to a safe spot.
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.29 15:52:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 15:53:52 Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 15:53:00
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/10/2009 15:16:41 you stupid ****, if you wanna whine about afk cloakers here is already a thread about it on the first page!!!
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204596
Well if you knew how to read, you would have realized that post was about the use of normal cloaks, cloaks in vagas, drakes etc.... This is about covert ops cloaks. But i know now you were not given the oportunity in life. I feel you bro.
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voiddragon
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Posted - 2009.10.29 16:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: voiddragon on 29/10/2009 16:08:57 I wouldn't mind a module that decloaks ships within 20km or so with a very long cooldown / fuel consumption... But as for safespotted cloakers, I am sick of the whiners. Can it hurt you? Can it tank you? Can it do anything but tell someone how many of you there are / who you are? And would that change if you could scan it down? No. But SOMEHOW, cloakers manage to lock down systems and scare people into docking. It's... STUPID how people react to them.
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Gaborelle
Gallente Final Conflict UK Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2009.10.29 17:09:00 -
[8]
leave to covert cloak alone
1. the ships able to fly with them are already as weak as kittens
2. i use my cloaky hauler almost everyday to cross through low sec and i use it to collect loot when i rat drones or npc rats in 0.0 then safe it up and cloak while i kill more rats with my battleship pilot.
3. nerfing it would kill off black ops fleets which (when the bugs dont happen - ie: black ops plus cov op cyno 20+ sb/cloaky hauler fleet jumping fail bug) happens to be great fun and yes cov op haulers often do have to sit n cloak for a while until the sb's friends do thier stuff.
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Wadddi
Caldari Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.29 17:27:00 -
[9]
But :( i like cloaking
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.10.29 17:49:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/10/2009 17:48:58
Originally by: Hanna Red
Well if you knew how to read, you would have realized that post was about the use of normal cloaks, cloaks in vagas, drakes etc.... This is about covert ops cloaks. But i know now you were not given the oportunity in life. I feel you bro.
regardless of to what cloak type you refer, you're b*tching about a well-discussed topic about afk cloaks, which are also discussed (again) in the mentioned topic.
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.29 18:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gaborelle leave to covert cloak alone
1. the ships able to fly with them are already as weak as kittens
2. i use my cloaky hauler almost everyday to cross through low sec and i use it to collect loot when i rat drones or npc rats in 0.0 then safe it up and cloak while i kill more rats with my battleship pilot.
3. nerfing it would kill off black ops fleets which (when the bugs dont happen - ie: black ops plus cov op cyno 20+ sb/cloaky hauler fleet jumping fail bug) happens to be great fun and yes cov op haulers often do have to sit n cloak for a while until the sb's friends do thier stuff.
Your point is noted. I am not saying to completelly render it useless. All i am saying you cannot be expected to remain AFK for 12 hours until down time without moving and without been scanable or decloaking. I think for the ship to decloak after an hour after cloak is a good limitation and at the same time does not cripple the cloaker. You would be able to cloak again but you have to be on desk for it. Al other functions should remain the same.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.29 20:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hanna Red Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:18:47 Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:15:15 Hi all Eve prides themselves on been close to reality. In eve people seeme to over exploit the use of covert ops cloaks. In the real world when you talk about covert, you will discovered if you remain still within an area for too long.
Tell that too the Marine Snipers who lay around for days in their Gili suits waiting for a target.
The truth is that in general when one is trying to be stealthy it's unneeded movement that gets you killed not staying in place.
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Jonnuus
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Posted - 2009.10.29 21:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: voiddragon Edited by: voiddragon on 29/10/2009 16:08:57 I wouldn't mind a module that decloaks ships within 20km or so with a very long cooldown / fuel consumption... But as for safespotted cloakers, I am sick of the whiners. Can it hurt you? Can it tank you? Can it do anything but tell someone how many of you there are / who you are? And would that change if you could scan it down? No. But SOMEHOW, cloakers manage to lock down systems and scare people into docking. It's... STUPID how people react to them.
Did someone say "Cloak Destabilization Bomb"?
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Valentia Valens
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.10.29 21:36:00 -
[14]
Smartbomb is to cloak as depth charge is to submarine - try it.
for example: orbit a gate at 1500m + radius of the SB with frigate 1 then expand the orbit by that amount plus that amount again - and so on, any AKF ship cloaked will be found in a few mins of this with even just a couple ships... a more organized party (with a few brains) can find them even quicker... if you only play in high-sec, then suck it up and deal with it... it works as it should just fine, I for one am very comfortable with AFK cloaking, I also think if your cloaked you should NOT show up in local... that is a dead give-away, and that SHOULD be changed... thanks for your time, good luck.
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Vadimik
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.29 21:40:00 -
[15]
As I have stated in pretty much every single "AFK cloakers are overpowered!!!!111oneone" thread I posted in, the very phenomenon of afk cloakers exists solely in the heads of those who metagame by abusing local too much.
And no developers in their right mind will ever "fix" something that is a side-effect of metagaming. Are afk-cloakers an issue in WH-space? No, they are not. Guess why?
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.30 17:40:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 30/10/2009 17:40:45 Edited by: Hanna Red on 30/10/2009 17:40:27
Originally by: Vadimik As I have stated in pretty much every single "AFK cloakers are overpowered!!!!111oneone" thread I posted in, the very phenomenon of afk cloakers exists solely in the heads of those who metagame by abusing local too much.
And no developers in their right mind will ever "fix" something that is a side-effect of metagaming. Are afk-cloakers an issue in WH-space? No, they are not. Guess why?
Cos no one can see no one!
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Vadimik
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.30 17:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hanna Red
Cos no one can see no one!
And in nullsec you can actually see someone afk and cloaked (local aside)? Care to explain how?
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necrosia demora
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Posted - 2009.10.30 17:51:00 -
[18]
when covert you are invisible untill you make a mistake i.e seen or stood on. this is the same in eve.
when you are cloaked and moving you are esentially infiltrating. this is the art of getting somewhere without being seen. unless you hit someone or bump into them you wont be seen.
when you are cloaked and stationary you are invisible. noone is ever going to find you. not unless they step on you. which in eve is 2000m (dont quote me on this).
cove ops is meant to go unseen and remain unseen till its job is done
i see no need for any changes
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers Elysium.
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Posted - 2009.10.30 18:49:00 -
[19]
To the OP - immersion breaking.
In the real world electronic stealth (radar absortion, stealth design, Electromagnetic Masking etc.) are all based on physics which seems to at least loosely fit to the EVE universe as it is supposed to be the future of our own world.
Sitting tight and quiet is actually the very best way to NOT be found in real physics. Indeed, the very best 'cloak' you can get in the real world is entirely passive and immobile. The more you do stuff, the more you risk being revealed.
So no, cloaks shouldn't just 'shut off' after awhile. All that will do is create a macro problem anyway.
Perhaps the answer is that cloaked ships should be, like hidden submarines beneath the waves, possible to find with a great deal of long, hard effort. Specialized probes, type and TL of the cloak, signature radius of the ship and, of course, activity could all be worked in.
However to be done properly and believably finding a small, still, cloaked ship using a T2 cloak should probably still be essentially impossible.
A big ship, moving using a Low Tech cloak - maybe you could find that in around an hour of probing. Could make for an exciting mini game kind of like a subhunt if CCP were to do it right.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.30 22:40:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 30/10/2009 22:40:53
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom To the OP - immersion breaking.
In the real world electronic stealth (radar absortion, stealth design, Electromagnetic Masking etc.) are all based on physics which seems to at least loosely fit to the EVE universe as it is supposed to be the future of our own world.
Sitting tight and quiet is actually the very best way to NOT be found in real physics. Indeed, the very best 'cloak' you can get in the real world is entirely passive and immobile. The more you do stuff, the more you risk being revealed.
So no, cloaks shouldn't just 'shut off' after awhile. All that will do is create a macro problem anyway.
Perhaps the answer is that cloaked ships should be, like hidden submarines beneath the waves, possible to find with a great deal of long, hard effort. Specialized probes, type and TL of the cloak, signature radius of the ship and, of course, activity could all be worked in.
However to be done properly and believably finding a small, still, cloaked ship using a T2 cloak should probably still be essentially impossible.
A big ship, moving using a Low Tech cloak - maybe you could find that in around an hour of probing. Could make for an exciting mini game kind of like a subhunt if CCP were to do it right.
Good valid points but i still u cannot be logged or afk for 24 hours in a system and not been able to be scanned. Oh and bytherway even stealth planes today can be piced up if they stay too long in the same area, so i dont see how in here u cant...thats just purelly wrong. If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
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necrosia demora
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Posted - 2009.10.31 00:17:00 -
[21]
Edited by: necrosia demora on 31/10/2009 00:18:46
Originally by: Hanna Red
If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
that bit is wrong.
the recon/covert ops game is that of patience not activity. the whole point of covert ops is not being seen whilst gathering information. the SAS set up covert ops lasting months and im sure people like the FBI do it for even longer. the SAS may do it through camouflage were the FBI might do it throw infaltration. in the case of the covert ops cloak this is in the same catagory as the SAS. a camouflaged ship(person) which hides in plain sight. no one can see it or even know its there. the only way to find a camouflaged thing like this is to step on it. no ammount of night vision/thermal imaginging or satalite telemetry is going to spot it if you dont know its there.
animals do the same thing. try spoting a camelion in a tree. the cloak is just the same. the camelion sits still meaning knowone can see it unless they get too close (2000m in eve).
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Lo KeTral
Amarr Ravenous Pathogen
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Posted - 2009.10.31 11:32:00 -
[22]
OMG, this is some of the worst S**T I`ve heard in awhile. RL ain`t fair, so why should EVE. It`s one thing to grief about game mechanix as to a bug in the code, but c`mon... Griefing on exploits? This is like b*tching about lil Johnny got more candy at trick or treating than lil suzy.
Originally by: Hanna Red Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:18:47 In eve people seeme to over exploit the use of covert ops cloaks. In the real world when you talk about covert, you will discovered if you remain still within an area for too long. Almost anywhere you go there are people sitting a distance from a gate cloaked in covert ops for hours upon hours with no real punishment/consequence and all the advantages. I think this should be changed. This game is about micro and i feel that this is an area that is getting massively exploited.
All I hear in this is waa waa waa because someone got ransomed or something.
They`re either upset because they don`t do it themselves, didn`t think about doing it first or didn`t know how to do it and it happened to them.
Flame me all you want, I laugh at these whiners. If you don`t wanna get fk`d don`t bend over in losec.
Why do people play Amarr? Because unlike the other races, Amarr characters are much more difficult to play. |
Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:00:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 31/10/2009 12:02:55
Originally by: necrosia demora Edited by: necrosia demora on 31/10/2009 00:18:46
Originally by: Hanna Red
If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
that bit is wrong.
the recon/covert ops game is that of patience not activity. the whole point of covert ops is not being seen whilst gathering information. the SAS set up covert ops lasting months and im sure people like the FBI do it for even longer. the SAS may do it through camouflage were the FBI might do it throw infaltration. in the case of the covert ops cloak this is in the same catagory as the SAS. a camouflaged ship(person) which hides in plain sight. no one can see it or even know its there. the only way to find a camouflaged thing like this is to step on it. no ammount of night vision/thermal imaginging or satalite telemetry is going to spot it if you dont know its there.
animals do the same thing. try spoting a camelion in a tree. the cloak is just the same. the camelion sits still meaning knowone can see it unless they get too close (2000m in eve).
You got it wrong, he blends, and still visible. He doesnt disapera completelly! There is a BIG difference. Also the longer you stay in one position, the more chances you are bound to be spotted by patrols. Its probability. But you cant be spotted by patrols in this game. Thats my point. I seriousy dont mean to render it useless! That i dont want and I am against it. But you cant have all the afvantages on your side. Its like the old myrmidon days when it could tank threee battleships (overpowered).
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hanna Red In the real world when you talk about covert, you will [be] discovered if you remain still within an area for too long.
Er, yeah, but thats because in the real world you don't get electro-magnetically enveloped spacecraft, nor do you get the opportunity to stay still in the vastness of an empy 3 dimensional area. If such things were possible, however, I think that it would be extremely unlikely that you'd be discovered. Space is really big, you see. And if you could shield something from electromagnetic sensors, then you would be truly invisible... people would only notice when the bumped into you.
And in Eve you DO decloak if someone comes near you - thats how you get discovered. However, if you're moderately careful, you can reduce the chance of being discovered to almost nil... either being at a safespot, or far enough off the object you're watching. I don't see this as being a problem.
---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: necrosia demora Edited by: necrosia demora on 31/10/2009 00:18:46
Originally by: Hanna Red
If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
that bit is wrong.
the recon/covert ops game is that of patience not activity. the whole point of covert ops is not being seen whilst gathering information. the SAS set up covert ops lasting months and im sure people like the FBI do it for even longer. the SAS may do it through camouflage were the FBI might do it throw infaltration. in the case of the covert ops cloak this is in the same catagory as the SAS. a camouflaged ship(person) which hides in plain sight. no one can see it or even know its there. the only way to find a camouflaged thing like this is to step on it. no ammount of night vision/thermal imaginging or satalite telemetry is going to spot it if you dont know its there.
animals do the same thing. try spoting a camelion in a tree. the cloak is just the same. the camelion sits still meaning knowone can see it unless they get too close (2000m in eve).
Yeah but a person cannot cyno a fleet can it speacially a black ops one in real life? The whole idea of it been fully stealthy all the time without been spotted is wrong speacially when you can cyno lots of ships. Bare in mind its great that you can cyno and makes this very nice attribute and makes it interesting, but for the ship also remain unscanable for 24 hours in a system, thats wrong. Dont matter how you put it. If the enemy knows you are in this visinity, you will be spotted by armies been sent to catch you. Guaranteed! No SAS will remain stealthy once they know you are in the area. |
Phootaba
Gallente Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Hanna Red
Yeah but a person cannot cyno a fleet can it speacially a black ops one in real life? The whole idea of it been fully stealthy all the time without been spotted is wrong speacially when you can cyno lots of ships. Bare in mind its great that you can cyno and makes this very nice attribute and makes it interesting, but for the ship also remain unscanable for 24 hours in a system, thats wrong. Dont matter how you put it. If the enemy knows you are in this visinity, you will be spotted by armies been sent to catch you. Guaranteed! No SAS will remain stealthy once they know you are in the area.
So, change local? ^^
What you're implying in RL is that you will be seen sooner or later. There's a big difference with RL "camouflage" and Eve "cloaking". In RL you blend in. In Eve... Well you can't blend in right? There's a **** load of space with no stuff in it. So you will have to be rendered invisible. You can't hide on an asteroid (and even if you would, that nasty Armageddon over there would just shoot you through the asteroid) You could make the ships "active" sensors go passive. Then you still would not be able to probe the ship out since all the probes in eve actually listens to stuff. Like someone else pointed out, if you shut the sensor suite off so no one can "listen" to you. They still will not be able to see you unless they bump in to you.
So, no physics in eve! \o/ Point is, psychological warfare is just so effective as the targets mind is weak.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:04:00 -
[27]
This thread is hilarious.
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Phootaba
Gallente Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mag's This thread is hilarious.
Good thing!
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Dr Karsun
Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:09:00 -
[29]
I propose cloacking device fuel. I think this idea was posted somewhere.
Cov ops ships should still have next to none consumption of it (since they are specially prepared for it), but all other ships should eat it up like candy. Working like ammo for a gun. Still, any other frig-bs should be able to stay cloacked for 2-3 minutes without a problem. No idea how much exactly it would consume, but I guess it'd be a step in the right direction.
And I'm not moaning about cov ops ships, really, I love them and I feel that it should stay as it is, that they can camp endlessly, but all other ships should be highly limited.
Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
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Tyrantin
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dr Karsun I propose cloacking device fuel. I think this idea was posted somewhere.
Cov ops ships should still have next to none consumption of it (since they are specially prepared for it), but all other ships should eat it up like candy. Working like ammo for a gun. Still, any other frig-bs should be able to stay cloacked for 2-3 minutes without a problem. No idea how much exactly it would consume, but I guess it'd be a step in the right direction.
And I'm not moaning about cov ops ships, really, I love them and I feel that it should stay as it is, that they can camp endlessly, but all other ships should be highly limited.
I agree with this!!! It is a verry good idea!
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Larinioides cornutus
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:25:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Dr Karsun I propose cloacking device fuel. I think this idea was posted somewhere.
Cov ops ships should still have next to none consumption of it (since they are specially prepared for it), but all other ships should eat it up like candy. Working like ammo for a gun. Still, any other frig-bs should be able to stay cloacked for 2-3 minutes without a problem. No idea how much exactly it would consume, but I guess it'd be a step in the right direction.
And I'm not moaning about cov ops ships, really, I love them and I feel that it should stay as it is, that they can camp endlessly, but all other ships should be highly limited.
I fully support this suggestion. Altho even max skill covops should still consume like 0.001m3 of fuel per second.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.31 15:23:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dr Karsun I propose cloacking device fuel. I think this idea was posted somewhere.
Cov ops ships should still have next to none consumption of it (since they are specially prepared for it), but all other ships should eat it up like candy. Working like ammo for a gun. Still, any other frig-bs should be able to stay cloacked for 2-3 minutes without a problem. No idea how much exactly it would consume, but I guess it'd be a step in the right direction.
And I'm not moaning about cov ops ships, really, I love them and I feel that it should stay as it is, that they can camp endlessly, but all other ships should be highly limited.
so essentially you want to nerf the ships, which are already severely gimped by fitting a cloak (targetting range/speed, no cloaked warping, dead slow moving subwarp), even more?
a cloaked battleship is way less dangerous for you than a recon e.g. imho cloak should stay as is. it is not like you cant use the surrounding systems because you got some cloaker sitting in your current system.
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Drakkan Koran
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Posted - 2009.10.31 17:23:00 -
[33]
I heard someone in another thread sugesting T2 destroyers and what they might be capable of. The suggestion I remember was a larger stealth bomber, 3 bomblaunchers 4 Torps sort of thing.
Real destroyers in the Navy excel at finding submarines. I think it's what they do. So ... can you guess what it is yet?
Aforementioned decloaking bombs and a cloaked-scan-probe launcher. Would be huge fun, and an alert cov-ops pilot would be hard to find.
This idea would need high skills and care would be needed to avoid overpowering it.
I am thinking maybe Heavy Interdictors and Cov Ops and Astrometrics all very high.
Just some noob's idea. :)
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Grarr Bexx
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Posted - 2009.10.31 19:10:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Dr Karsun I propose cloacking device fuel. I think this idea was posted somewhere.
Cov ops ships should still have next to none consumption of it (since they are specially prepared for it), but all other ships should eat it up like candy. Working like ammo for a gun. Still, any other frig-bs should be able to stay cloacked for 2-3 minutes without a problem. No idea how much exactly it would consume, but I guess it'd be a step in the right direction.
And I'm not moaning about cov ops ships, really, I love them and I feel that it should stay as it is, that they can camp endlessly, but all other ships should be highly limited.
All of a sudden, absolutely NOBODY flies the pilgrim anymore. I can agree on a fuel need for regular cloaks, but covert cloaks need to be EXEMPT from the fuel mechanic.
These ships are designed to disrupt and monitor enemy movement, a mechanic countering these patterns would be highly averse to flying a covert ship.
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Cedims
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Posted - 2009.10.31 19:35:00 -
[35]
There is nothing wrong with cloaking, as it is. It really is a very simple technology, why complicate it?
And if being "close to reality" is an issue, CONCORD ought to dissolve gangs at gates and if one ship commit "suicide" by killing another ship, the whole gang ought to be penalized. It also ought to be illegal to "hang" by the gate, in general. Pfft! lol
Reality is, well, it's way in the future. Cloaking is awesomeness, and you want to spoil it? Come on, YOU get real.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.31 21:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Grarr Bexx
Originally by: Dr Karsun I propose cloacking device fuel. I think this idea was posted somewhere.
Cov ops ships should still have next to none consumption of it (since they are specially prepared for it), but all other ships should eat it up like candy. Working like ammo for a gun. Still, any other frig-bs should be able to stay cloacked for 2-3 minutes without a problem. No idea how much exactly it would consume, but I guess it'd be a step in the right direction.
And I'm not moaning about cov ops ships, really, I love them and I feel that it should stay as it is, that they can camp endlessly, but all other ships should be highly limited.
All of a sudden, absolutely NOBODY flies the pilgrim anymore. I can agree on a fuel need for regular cloaks, but covert cloaks need to be EXEMPT from the fuel mechanic.
These ships are designed to disrupt and monitor enemy movement, a mechanic countering these patterns would be highly averse to flying a covert ship.
The covert ops and recons (so also SB and black ops) are you can say 'spetialised in cloacking' so they'd use next to no fuel - they can use covert ops cloack.
And all other ships, well, they are not ment to be cloacked, that's what covert ops are for, warping cloacked is a great plus, sure, but it'd be nice to really see the differance.
And hey, as for bs with cloacks... It's like with a spoiler on a car... If it's not mounted on a fast car it just looks cool, nothing more, but for it to actually work, you need to have a sports car going over 200km/h (or whatever is the speed that it starts to make a differance).
Fuel for cloacks is win.
Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
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Pan Dora
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.10.31 22:19:00 -
[37]
Please CCP, add fuel requirment to looking at local.
_
I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game. |
Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.10.31 22:32:00 -
[38]
Okay, E-war ships when they aren't fitted for E-war con fit massive, massive tanks.
Things like the Arazu. The Arazu can also fit the Covert Cyno Generator. This can pull in only Ships of the Black Ops type, (Apparently there are only 208 of the things in active service, so I know who pilots 10% of them?) which can then jump into a Cyno Jammed system.
Now imagine you had 10 of them. Now attach a Covert Jump Portal Generator to each one, just like a Titans jump bridge ability, so only one of them had to loose cap and fuel in the jump, and they all could jump back immediatly, using either a different Black Ops Jump Portal or they're own jump engines.
I thinking that the lone cloaked Red in system is harmless and weak as a kitten is only possible if you can scoff in derision at that Red's entire alliance.
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Sith LordX
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Posted - 2009.11.01 00:51:00 -
[39]
The only thing that your whining about is that because you can't scan anybody down it wastes your time and messes with your mind. Well that is the point. Mind warfare is simple as that. You de-cloak to launch scan probes but suddenly boo and pew pew. Your now dead.
Or you have a massive sb fleet pawn your 150mill BS, they may lose one SB but they popped your BS by a JB by a POS. LOL Thats how its sipose to work. That is fear and its unseen death. Something you can not see scares you. Same with mining or being out in 0.0 or lowsec. Whine all you wish. Risk vs reward. You don't like it, carebear in highsec. Even then the gankers will get ya.
Best part about a cov ops fleet with recons black ops and SB's is that they can jump into your cyno jammed system and ruin your day there all day long. It makes you afraid to rat or go outside your pos. Hell they have the power to pop your pos in a 100 man fleet. Thats the point, they are all fragile ships, but they are all stealthy and expensive.
You get what you pay for. You can not justify just cus a ship can warp wile cloaked is wrong. Its called the element of surprise, its the only defense these kind of ships have. They also play a great role in their offense. How am I going to drop a bomb if I have to decloak wile warping to my targets. They will be like omg warp away. Or surprise attack for my torp runs? Torps are close range weapons, nothing like the days when we could just launch cruise missiles 250km away with a SB.
Now theres even more risk with these ships. So learn to live with the change. Its been our for awile now. Theres a saying, adapt or die. And you don't want to adapt.
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Nebulous
Minmatar Salvage Junkies
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Posted - 2009.11.01 01:08:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Nebulous on 01/11/2009 01:12:13
Originally by: Hanna Red Eve prides themselves on been close to reality.
LOL I laughed my ass off at this
P.S. Stop moaning about cloaks, if there was no local (like how it should be) then you would not know the cloaker was there anyway. CCP should forum ban for a month anyone that starts a new thread on this subject, I want to come to the ideas section to find some good ideas, not a bunch of kids moaning about the same god damn crap all the time.
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Bemoteajh
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Posted - 2009.11.01 04:46:00 -
[41]
my suggestion is that you make a type of probe that send out an energy pulse that breaks all cloaks in they system or within the standard probe scan range for a period just long enough for only the best scan pilots (sp and skill) to track them down if they are afk they will be popped and podded accordingly if not he will simply warp to safe spots till he can recloak.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.11.01 05:05:00 -
[42]
Just give players a probe that can scan down cloaked ships. Then give us a semi long cooldown anti cloak ECM burst type of decloaker. Use it on a gate and suffer gate gun fire. Make the decloaker a specialty ship item and give it to somthing that can't tank gate guns.
Well maybe the decloaker is a bad idea unless it's got like a 5k or less radius. Still there needs to be a way to scan down afk cloakers and inattentive cloakers. There should be more risk associated with cloaking then just accidentally getting blown up on a gate cause you ****ed up.
People should fear going afk in space, even with cloak. Players actively piloting thier ships with a cloak should have some reason for concern as well. Everyone associates cloaks with submarines. Let me tell you from first hand experience, subs are hard to find, but they sure as hell don't magicly dissapear from all sensors. They have to actively avoid detection.
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Raw Matters
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Posted - 2009.11.02 21:08:00 -
[43]
There are a few options against cloakers: 1. Get some tank. My Myrmidon can tank 2 SBs while hunting rats, so I don't fear cloakers and they generally ignore me. 2. Get some friends. As soon as you are no longer alone, it can be as deadly for the cloaker as for you. 3. Bait and kill. Cloakers search for easy prey, so give them a retriever and 3 SBs cloaked next to it.
The fact alone that jumping through a gate can be deadly for any cloaker balances Covert Ops imo.
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.11.05 13:21:00 -
[44]
As i said very easelly sorted and it does not really affect the covert ops much, after all they still can cloak and be unscanable for long periods of time... 1-Fuel covert cloak, fuel runs out, no more cloak 2-Tie down the covert cloak to a timer. Means the covert cloak will uncloak after lets say an hour automatically. And the user can recloak when he presses cloak again 3-The covert ops cloak with pin point. At the start its hard to pin point but as time passes it easier to pin point...kinda realistic with the idea of sub atomic particles been released..
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Scouteye
Locasta Tactical
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Posted - 2009.11.05 14:57:00 -
[45]
omg good people get a grip!
The social aspects of this game, chats, commanders, communication between players, these aspects may cross the divide between virtual riality and the real world but oh my, look around, are you sitting in a ****ing pod?
is your thorax parked out side, and you going home to dock in your station?, do you work as a starbase fuel technician (nasa boys dont answer that )
internet spaceships, thats what your playing here, compairing real SAS soliders and their tactics to a covert ops space ship in an internet spacships game... thats mental!
Put your feet back down on the ground and consider the ship within its own surroundings, its own context.
it cloaks, it cant be seen, it can see you but you cant see it. You cant attack it BUT neither can it attack you until it decloaks!
It can give intel on you, and you can setup big nasty traps to kill its ass when it tries to leave OR create a comotion in system and bait to fly to a trap.
Theres always a way to get cloakers. If they trully are AFK, then they are of no worry to you, they are not effecting you, how are they harming you?
Send a BS out in a belt, have it rat 30 mins, if no one shows up the cloakers afk :)
Have your own scouts and intel chanels open so you can see whats going on, scout the enemy out, see if they have Black ops on standby outside a station ready to hot drop.
Think, use your minds but ffs what ever you do dont compair an internet space with real life soliders who are currently helping keeping your sorry ass out of a body bag in some way. What they are doing is far more important than anything to do with internet spaceships and your whine.
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Ovous
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Posted - 2009.11.05 15:31:00 -
[46]
why not just have a t2 smart bomb fittable only to SB's that has a range of 20km (+10% range per level of energy emissions)and does 1em damage but has a high pulse rate of like 10 seconds (reduced by 1 second ((10%)) per level of electronic upgrades)
so with max skills you will have 5 second rotation 30km ranged pulse that hits everything in range for 1EM damage, uses very little cap. this way the cloakers will have to be clever with positioning and SB wont just be paper torp boats any longer.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers Elysium.
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Posted - 2009.11.06 00:34:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Hanna Red Good valid points but i still u cannot be logged or afk for 24 hours in a system and not been able to be scanned.
Boomers (Nuclear Missile Submarines) can and do exactly this and they do it for months.
There are things that can detect them of course, and people working day and night to try and defeat those things and so on.
However yes they can hide for extended periods of time and yes, they do the equivalent of 'afk' at sea.
Quote: Oh and bytherway even stealth planes today can be piced up if they stay too long in the same area, so i dont see how in here u cant
Actual stealth aircraft abilities are still highly classified so you might not want to make such silly pronouncements. Very few folks know their real capabilities.
I used to work with low detection aircraft in the military (and my info is sadly long out of date) so I do have some real world expertise in this.
And, of course, being aircraft they don't stay anywhere very long or they fall out of the sky. No one has ever built a stealth VTOL or helicopter.
Quote: ...thats just purelly wrong. If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
I didn't say that there should be no way. I said that it should be a specialty skill and that it should require special equipment and that, for really stealthy craft, it should be very nearly impossible, particularly if they are in deep space somewhere.
Space is big and mostly empty. If you're not emitting it's very very easy to hide something in it. Even something fairly large because it is SO big.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
WuChiJIanRen
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Posted - 2009.11.06 00:48:00 -
[48]
Realistic? Ridiculous!
Is covert ops overpowered?
No!
So no change.
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Roland Five
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Posted - 2009.11.06 02:56:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Hanna Red Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:18:47 Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:15:15 In the real world when you talk about covert, you will discovered if you remain still within an area for too long. Almost anywhere you go there are people sitting a distance from a gate cloaked in covert ops for hours upon hours with no real punishment/consequence and all the advantages. I think this should be changed. This game is about micro and i feel that this is an area that is getting massively exploited.
I disagree. I don't think there is any exploitation here at all. The individual sitting cloaked in a system (near a gate or not) is not doing anything but waiting so there shouldn't be any consequences. I don't think sitting should be penalized. Ships that are AFK are not a risk to anyone else. It is the ships that are being piloted that are dangerous. I'll also add that covert cloaks only fit on a limited group of ships and none of those ships are so incredibly awesome individually that they should be nerfed. In a way, covert ops cloaks are pre-nerfed.
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Markus Reese
Caldari Lorentzian Expeditionaries
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Posted - 2009.11.06 02:59:00 -
[50]
I am against a cloak fuel for one reason, that is as an explorer. I will be deep in lowsec for hours or more on end. Would need to be able to carry like 5 or more hours of fuel to make it work.
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Detur Digniori
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Posted - 2009.11.06 11:29:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Detur Digniori on 06/11/2009 11:29:52 Edited by: Detur Digniori on 06/11/2009 11:29:30 Totally ludicrous, topic starter as crying carebear to which disturb hunting hanging in local neutrals . The most correct decision to remover local and the problem will be solved!
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Germaldi's Mum
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Posted - 2009.11.06 12:28:00 -
[52]
leave the cloak alone......... quit whining cos someone is hidden in system.
just cos u find it an inconveinence that prevents your macro from ratting is no reason to kill off a whole class of tactical warfare. Nerfing the cloak would kill off blackops fleets, and gate camps (yes usually a cloaked scout is there to warn ya of an approaching victim or blob).
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.11.06 12:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Detur Digniori Edited by: Detur Digniori on 06/11/2009 11:29:52 Edited by: Detur Digniori on 06/11/2009 11:29:30 Totally ludicrous, topic starter as crying carebear to which disturb hunting hanging in local neutrals . The most correct decision to remover local and the problem will be solved!
lol why not make them invinsible while you are it hehehe
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.11.06 12:54:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Germaldi's Mum leave the cloak alone......... quit whining cos someone is hidden in system.
just cos u find it an inconveinence that prevents your macro from ratting is no reason to kill off a whole class of tactical warfare. Nerfing the cloak would kill off blackops fleets, and gate camps (yes usually a cloaked scout is there to warn ya of an approaching victim or blob).
Last time i heard, requesting a change is not whining. Otherwise i am sure you have done some whining yourself. And perhaps i have not explained myself well. I dont want to nerf the black ops. I am against nerfing the black ops infact. I am asking to change so that the recon ships that cyno those black ops ships cant say cloaked FOREVER without been scanned, that is wrong. Not the black ops but the recon ships that got the covert ops cloak. So the black ops wont get affected just the recon. Thats my idea.
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2009.11.06 13:10:00 -
[55]
Fuel for all cloaked ships, except covert ops frigate. Yes, stealth bomber needs fuel too, just not much.
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Detur Digniori
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Posted - 2009.11.06 13:32:00 -
[56]
Stop write bosh! The shred on that and a shred, differently from it will not be to use. If you the beginnings about it. That should be remove safe afk on pos/station/ remove local.
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.11.06 14:00:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Detur Digniori Stop write bosh! The shred on that and a shred, differently from it will not be to use. If you the beginnings about it. That should be remove safe afk on pos/station/ remove local.
lol once again, you dont make sence XD
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Osvaldr Adridian
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.06 17:11:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hanna Red
Originally by: Detur Digniori Stop write bosh! The shred on that and a shred, differently from it will not be to use. If you the beginnings about it. That should be remove safe afk on pos/station/ remove local.
lol once again, you dont make sence XD
Just give it a rest, your idea is rubbish.
As they say "If it aint broken, don't fix it." and regardless on if you think it's broken or not the majority of this thread AND CCP thinks it's fine and working as intended. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.11.06 17:53:00 -
[59]
a solution looking for a problem
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Lo KeTral
Amarr Ravenous Pathogen
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Posted - 2009.11.07 01:31:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dr Karsun I propose cloacking device fuel.
Now this would be not a bad idea, granted, I myself like it as it is. However, to make things a lil more fair for carebears and cry babies, I could live with this idea.
Why do people play Amarr? Because unlike the other races, Amarr characters are much more difficult to play. |
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Markus Reese
Caldari Lorentzian Expeditionaries
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Posted - 2009.11.07 04:48:00 -
[61]
Just make a T2 covert probe launcher that is undectectable when it isn't running it's scan cycle. You guys can scan peeps out without them probably ever noticing to jump and cloak... done.
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Cedims
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:08:00 -
[62]
I think that if a cloak is run on fuel, should not a scanner use fuel as well?
And no, *I* don't think ANY of them should be "fuel based", but in "real life" you can't scan **** without burning some kind of energy (well, I guess a pair of binoculars would count as a sort of scan, but then again, hiding behind a tree could be called covert).
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Vincent Gaines
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:32:00 -
[63]
people cloaking in system only bother you if you let it. honestly, it's fear that a single cloaked person AFK causes. Grow a backbone.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:41:00 -
[64]
cloaks are fine, no need for a counter.
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Grarr Wrexx
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:11:00 -
[65]
Cloaks aren't overpowered, the local channel is.
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Vincent Gaines
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2009.11.26 20:57:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Grarr Wrexx Cloaks aren't overpowered, the local channel is.
exactly.
there really is no need for local as an intel tool. combat probing can be buffed maybe to show what local already does, ship/pilot name and even a little marker for standings.
even the onboard scanner should be buffed to match.
cloaked ships won't show up, when they uncloak to warp or attack, there ya go.
covert ops, well they warp cloaked, so nothing changes there.
with everyone whining about needing local, I have yet to see an actual complaint about WH space having a delayed local channel.
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Pesets
The Hunt Club
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Posted - 2009.11.27 00:58:00 -
[67]
The problem with afk cloaking is afk part, not cloaking. Perhaps you shouldn't still be logged in if you haven't done anything within an hour (and your ship isn't autopiloting or has some non-cloaking module activated).
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Vincent Gaines
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2009.11.27 01:56:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Pesets The problem with afk cloaking is afk part, not cloaking. Perhaps you shouldn't still be logged in if you haven't done anything within an hour (and your ship isn't autopiloting or has some non-cloaking module activated).
Again, if a cloaked red in local is enough to disrupt your activities, perhaps you should re-evaluate your location and overall courage.
Bait the cloaker and kill him/her.
Rat/mine in groups.
Go about business and have a small task force on standby (google an army QRF).
Stop crying and play the damn game.
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Pesets
The Hunt Club
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Posted - 2009.11.27 04:04:00 -
[69]
My gameplay is not affected by afk cloakers. But i do think that it's actually one case where you have to play the damn game if you want to have an effect on other players' activities. It makes no sense if they refuse to extend the skill queue "because they want people to log in", but then let the people "play the game" by leaving the client running while doing other stuff.
And i'd like to see you bait and kill a Pilgrim with a gang of Hulks. But that's besides the point.
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gpfault
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.11.27 04:56:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Hanna Red Eve prides themselves on been close to reality.
I stopped reading here.
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hmmv50cal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.27 06:03:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Hanna Red Edited by: Hanna Red on 30/10/2009 22:40:53
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom To the OP - immersion breaking.
In the real world electronic stealth (radar absortion, stealth design, Electromagnetic Masking etc.) are all based on physics which seems to at least loosely fit to the EVE universe as it is supposed to be the future of our own world.
Sitting tight and quiet is actually the very best way to NOT be found in real physics. Indeed, the very best 'cloak' you can get in the real world is entirely passive and immobile. The more you do stuff, the more you risk being revealed.
So no, cloaks shouldn't just 'shut off' after awhile. All that will do is create a macro problem anyway.
Perhaps the answer is that cloaked ships should be, like hidden submarines beneath the waves, possible to find with a great deal of long, hard effort. Specialized probes, type and TL of the cloak, signature radius of the ship and, of course, activity could all be worked in.
However to be done properly and believably finding a small, still, cloaked ship using a T2 cloak should probably still be essentially impossible.
A big ship, moving using a Low Tech cloak - maybe you could find that in around an hour of probing. Could make for an exciting mini game kind of like a subhunt if CCP were to do it right.
Good valid points but i still u cannot be logged or afk for 24 hours in a system and not been able to be scanned. Oh and bytherway even stealth planes today can be piced up if they stay too long in the same area, so i dont see how in here u cant...thats just purelly wrong. If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
Just stop with the WTFIDIOCY. Please.
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Cedims
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Posted - 2010.01.09 19:06:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Grarr Wrexx Cloaks aren't overpowered, the local channel is.
THIS!
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Mr Cleann
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Posted - 2010.01.12 03:25:00 -
[73]
There is nothing wrong with cloaks. There are a number of 3rd party programs that will enable you to find cloaked ships. I am convinced of that after my last experiance in lowsec.
I was finishing up a mission and on my way back to my agent. I ran in to gate that was double campped (both sides of the jump) I made the jump, Saw the campers at 15+km. I started to move the ship and successfully cloaked without delay (improved cloak) and was not targeted. as I was moving I changed directions and noticed the other ship maching me like a torpedo heading for it target. with little effort he managed to get within 2k meters of me and decloak my ship Dispite my changing directions. Next theng I know Im inside a station. So either there is a module that is out that enables people to track cloaked ships OR someone is using a third party program. Don't know which. But I do know you can easily get around a cloak.
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Cedims
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Posted - 2010.01.12 04:24:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Mr Cleann But I do know you can easily get around a cloak.
I most definitely agree, nothing wrong with the cloaks.
Well, sorry about your loss mate! No chance in "dodging" an approaching Interceptor, for example. They are really fast, not just top speed, but accelerating as well. He just had to aim somewhere near you, when you temporarily decloaked the auto-cloak, before activating the cloak. That split second is all that's needed. You realigning took longer than him ending up outside your ****pit. ;)
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