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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:11:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:18:47 Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:15:15 Hi all Eve prides themselves on been close to reality. In eve people seeme to over exploit the use of covert ops cloaks. In the real world when you talk about covert, you will discovered if you remain still within an area for too long. Almost anywhere you go there are people sitting a distance from a gate cloaked in covert ops for hours upon hours with no real punishment/consequence and all the advantages. I think this should be changed. This game is about micro and i feel that this is an area that is getting massively exploited. I therefore propose so kind of system by which a covert ops ship will uncloak after and hour or so. This would put and end to AFK cloaks for long periods of time and will force the members to marco their characters or be actively looking after them. One way to this is to add and attribute that will uncloak a covert ops after an hour of been cloaked. But this is very open for bots. Another solution is to make a sort of fuel machanism that would be expensive to run or that would only last for a good while until depletes. Another method is that as time pases, a signature of the ship gets more and more stronger and you can scan it down easier. Until the person uncloaks and recloaks again. I seriusly think that you cant simply log and stay and make strikes or monitor the system without any punishement. After all, no sort of covert is trully covert fully as in game atm. Just give us your thoughts guys on this, would appreciate it.
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Chi'kote
Serenity Ascension Eternus Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:18:00 -
[2]
How many threads do we need asking for this crap before people stop whining an realize there's nothing wrong here. As annoying as AFK cloakers are, the mechanic works as intended and shouldn't be changed. Some of those "afk" cloakers are actually enemy spies watching the area, or people looking to gank a ratter/miner, and there is no reason they shouldn't be able to. Instead of whining to have the mechanic changed to make the game easier for you, just learn to deal with it.
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Chi'kote How many threads do we need asking for this crap before people stop whining an realize there's nothing wrong here. As annoying as AFK cloakers are, the mechanic works as intended and shouldn't be changed. Some of those "afk" cloakers are actually enemy spies watching the area, or people looking to gank a ratter/miner, and there is no reason they shouldn't be able to. Instead of whining to have the mechanic changed to make the game easier for you, just learn to deal with it.
I think you can learn to macro for a change ;)
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.10.29 15:16:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/10/2009 15:16:41 you stupid ****, if you wanna whine about afk cloakers here is already a thread about it on the first page!!!
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204596
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mchief117
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Posted - 2009.10.29 15:19:00 -
[5]
while i dont agree that covert ops cloaks need a nerf , as its really the only protection blockade runners have . i do agree that there is no active way to find said ships that doesnt require huge luck in moving with in 2K of the ship. we do need a sensor system that could over 30 seconds ish force a ship to uncloak this would alert the cloaked ship that its being scaned down giving active players the chance to esscape but would find the afks that havent retreated to a safe spot.
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.29 15:52:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 15:53:52 Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 15:53:00
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/10/2009 15:16:41 you stupid ****, if you wanna whine about afk cloakers here is already a thread about it on the first page!!!
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204596
Well if you knew how to read, you would have realized that post was about the use of normal cloaks, cloaks in vagas, drakes etc.... This is about covert ops cloaks. But i know now you were not given the oportunity in life. I feel you bro.
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voiddragon
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Posted - 2009.10.29 16:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: voiddragon on 29/10/2009 16:08:57 I wouldn't mind a module that decloaks ships within 20km or so with a very long cooldown / fuel consumption... But as for safespotted cloakers, I am sick of the whiners. Can it hurt you? Can it tank you? Can it do anything but tell someone how many of you there are / who you are? And would that change if you could scan it down? No. But SOMEHOW, cloakers manage to lock down systems and scare people into docking. It's... STUPID how people react to them.
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Gaborelle
Gallente Final Conflict UK Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2009.10.29 17:09:00 -
[8]
leave to covert cloak alone
1. the ships able to fly with them are already as weak as kittens
2. i use my cloaky hauler almost everyday to cross through low sec and i use it to collect loot when i rat drones or npc rats in 0.0 then safe it up and cloak while i kill more rats with my battleship pilot.
3. nerfing it would kill off black ops fleets which (when the bugs dont happen - ie: black ops plus cov op cyno 20+ sb/cloaky hauler fleet jumping fail bug) happens to be great fun and yes cov op haulers often do have to sit n cloak for a while until the sb's friends do thier stuff.
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Wadddi
Caldari Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.29 17:27:00 -
[9]
But :( i like cloaking
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.10.29 17:49:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 29/10/2009 17:48:58
Originally by: Hanna Red
Well if you knew how to read, you would have realized that post was about the use of normal cloaks, cloaks in vagas, drakes etc.... This is about covert ops cloaks. But i know now you were not given the oportunity in life. I feel you bro.
regardless of to what cloak type you refer, you're b*tching about a well-discussed topic about afk cloaks, which are also discussed (again) in the mentioned topic.
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.29 18:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gaborelle leave to covert cloak alone
1. the ships able to fly with them are already as weak as kittens
2. i use my cloaky hauler almost everyday to cross through low sec and i use it to collect loot when i rat drones or npc rats in 0.0 then safe it up and cloak while i kill more rats with my battleship pilot.
3. nerfing it would kill off black ops fleets which (when the bugs dont happen - ie: black ops plus cov op cyno 20+ sb/cloaky hauler fleet jumping fail bug) happens to be great fun and yes cov op haulers often do have to sit n cloak for a while until the sb's friends do thier stuff.
Your point is noted. I am not saying to completelly render it useless. All i am saying you cannot be expected to remain AFK for 12 hours until down time without moving and without been scanable or decloaking. I think for the ship to decloak after an hour after cloak is a good limitation and at the same time does not cripple the cloaker. You would be able to cloak again but you have to be on desk for it. Al other functions should remain the same.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.29 20:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hanna Red Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:18:47 Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:15:15 Hi all Eve prides themselves on been close to reality. In eve people seeme to over exploit the use of covert ops cloaks. In the real world when you talk about covert, you will discovered if you remain still within an area for too long.
Tell that too the Marine Snipers who lay around for days in their Gili suits waiting for a target.
The truth is that in general when one is trying to be stealthy it's unneeded movement that gets you killed not staying in place.
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Jonnuus
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Posted - 2009.10.29 21:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: voiddragon Edited by: voiddragon on 29/10/2009 16:08:57 I wouldn't mind a module that decloaks ships within 20km or so with a very long cooldown / fuel consumption... But as for safespotted cloakers, I am sick of the whiners. Can it hurt you? Can it tank you? Can it do anything but tell someone how many of you there are / who you are? And would that change if you could scan it down? No. But SOMEHOW, cloakers manage to lock down systems and scare people into docking. It's... STUPID how people react to them.
Did someone say "Cloak Destabilization Bomb"?
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Valentia Valens
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.10.29 21:36:00 -
[14]
Smartbomb is to cloak as depth charge is to submarine - try it.
for example: orbit a gate at 1500m + radius of the SB with frigate 1 then expand the orbit by that amount plus that amount again - and so on, any AKF ship cloaked will be found in a few mins of this with even just a couple ships... a more organized party (with a few brains) can find them even quicker... if you only play in high-sec, then suck it up and deal with it... it works as it should just fine, I for one am very comfortable with AFK cloaking, I also think if your cloaked you should NOT show up in local... that is a dead give-away, and that SHOULD be changed... thanks for your time, good luck.
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Vadimik
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.29 21:40:00 -
[15]
As I have stated in pretty much every single "AFK cloakers are overpowered!!!!111oneone" thread I posted in, the very phenomenon of afk cloakers exists solely in the heads of those who metagame by abusing local too much.
And no developers in their right mind will ever "fix" something that is a side-effect of metagaming. Are afk-cloakers an issue in WH-space? No, they are not. Guess why?
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Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.30 17:40:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 30/10/2009 17:40:45 Edited by: Hanna Red on 30/10/2009 17:40:27
Originally by: Vadimik As I have stated in pretty much every single "AFK cloakers are overpowered!!!!111oneone" thread I posted in, the very phenomenon of afk cloakers exists solely in the heads of those who metagame by abusing local too much.
And no developers in their right mind will ever "fix" something that is a side-effect of metagaming. Are afk-cloakers an issue in WH-space? No, they are not. Guess why?
Cos no one can see no one!
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Vadimik
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.30 17:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hanna Red
Cos no one can see no one!
And in nullsec you can actually see someone afk and cloaked (local aside)? Care to explain how?
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necrosia demora
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Posted - 2009.10.30 17:51:00 -
[18]
when covert you are invisible untill you make a mistake i.e seen or stood on. this is the same in eve.
when you are cloaked and moving you are esentially infiltrating. this is the art of getting somewhere without being seen. unless you hit someone or bump into them you wont be seen.
when you are cloaked and stationary you are invisible. noone is ever going to find you. not unless they step on you. which in eve is 2000m (dont quote me on this).
cove ops is meant to go unseen and remain unseen till its job is done
i see no need for any changes
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers Elysium.
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Posted - 2009.10.30 18:49:00 -
[19]
To the OP - immersion breaking.
In the real world electronic stealth (radar absortion, stealth design, Electromagnetic Masking etc.) are all based on physics which seems to at least loosely fit to the EVE universe as it is supposed to be the future of our own world.
Sitting tight and quiet is actually the very best way to NOT be found in real physics. Indeed, the very best 'cloak' you can get in the real world is entirely passive and immobile. The more you do stuff, the more you risk being revealed.
So no, cloaks shouldn't just 'shut off' after awhile. All that will do is create a macro problem anyway.
Perhaps the answer is that cloaked ships should be, like hidden submarines beneath the waves, possible to find with a great deal of long, hard effort. Specialized probes, type and TL of the cloak, signature radius of the ship and, of course, activity could all be worked in.
However to be done properly and believably finding a small, still, cloaked ship using a T2 cloak should probably still be essentially impossible.
A big ship, moving using a Low Tech cloak - maybe you could find that in around an hour of probing. Could make for an exciting mini game kind of like a subhunt if CCP were to do it right.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.30 22:40:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 30/10/2009 22:40:53
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom To the OP - immersion breaking.
In the real world electronic stealth (radar absortion, stealth design, Electromagnetic Masking etc.) are all based on physics which seems to at least loosely fit to the EVE universe as it is supposed to be the future of our own world.
Sitting tight and quiet is actually the very best way to NOT be found in real physics. Indeed, the very best 'cloak' you can get in the real world is entirely passive and immobile. The more you do stuff, the more you risk being revealed.
So no, cloaks shouldn't just 'shut off' after awhile. All that will do is create a macro problem anyway.
Perhaps the answer is that cloaked ships should be, like hidden submarines beneath the waves, possible to find with a great deal of long, hard effort. Specialized probes, type and TL of the cloak, signature radius of the ship and, of course, activity could all be worked in.
However to be done properly and believably finding a small, still, cloaked ship using a T2 cloak should probably still be essentially impossible.
A big ship, moving using a Low Tech cloak - maybe you could find that in around an hour of probing. Could make for an exciting mini game kind of like a subhunt if CCP were to do it right.
Good valid points but i still u cannot be logged or afk for 24 hours in a system and not been able to be scanned. Oh and bytherway even stealth planes today can be piced up if they stay too long in the same area, so i dont see how in here u cant...thats just purelly wrong. If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
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necrosia demora
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Posted - 2009.10.31 00:17:00 -
[21]
Edited by: necrosia demora on 31/10/2009 00:18:46
Originally by: Hanna Red
If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
that bit is wrong.
the recon/covert ops game is that of patience not activity. the whole point of covert ops is not being seen whilst gathering information. the SAS set up covert ops lasting months and im sure people like the FBI do it for even longer. the SAS may do it through camouflage were the FBI might do it throw infaltration. in the case of the covert ops cloak this is in the same catagory as the SAS. a camouflaged ship(person) which hides in plain sight. no one can see it or even know its there. the only way to find a camouflaged thing like this is to step on it. no ammount of night vision/thermal imaginging or satalite telemetry is going to spot it if you dont know its there.
animals do the same thing. try spoting a camelion in a tree. the cloak is just the same. the camelion sits still meaning knowone can see it unless they get too close (2000m in eve).
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Lo KeTral
Amarr Ravenous Pathogen
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Posted - 2009.10.31 11:32:00 -
[22]
OMG, this is some of the worst S**T I`ve heard in awhile. RL ain`t fair, so why should EVE. It`s one thing to grief about game mechanix as to a bug in the code, but c`mon... Griefing on exploits? This is like b*tching about lil Johnny got more candy at trick or treating than lil suzy.
Originally by: Hanna Red Edited by: Hanna Red on 29/10/2009 14:18:47 In eve people seeme to over exploit the use of covert ops cloaks. In the real world when you talk about covert, you will discovered if you remain still within an area for too long. Almost anywhere you go there are people sitting a distance from a gate cloaked in covert ops for hours upon hours with no real punishment/consequence and all the advantages. I think this should be changed. This game is about micro and i feel that this is an area that is getting massively exploited.
All I hear in this is waa waa waa because someone got ransomed or something.
They`re either upset because they don`t do it themselves, didn`t think about doing it first or didn`t know how to do it and it happened to them.
Flame me all you want, I laugh at these whiners. If you don`t wanna get fk`d don`t bend over in losec.
Why do people play Amarr? Because unlike the other races, Amarr characters are much more difficult to play. |
Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:00:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Hanna Red on 31/10/2009 12:02:55
Originally by: necrosia demora Edited by: necrosia demora on 31/10/2009 00:18:46
Originally by: Hanna Red
If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
that bit is wrong.
the recon/covert ops game is that of patience not activity. the whole point of covert ops is not being seen whilst gathering information. the SAS set up covert ops lasting months and im sure people like the FBI do it for even longer. the SAS may do it through camouflage were the FBI might do it throw infaltration. in the case of the covert ops cloak this is in the same catagory as the SAS. a camouflaged ship(person) which hides in plain sight. no one can see it or even know its there. the only way to find a camouflaged thing like this is to step on it. no ammount of night vision/thermal imaginging or satalite telemetry is going to spot it if you dont know its there.
animals do the same thing. try spoting a camelion in a tree. the cloak is just the same. the camelion sits still meaning knowone can see it unless they get too close (2000m in eve).
You got it wrong, he blends, and still visible. He doesnt disapera completelly! There is a BIG difference. Also the longer you stay in one position, the more chances you are bound to be spotted by patrols. Its probability. But you cant be spotted by patrols in this game. Thats my point. I seriousy dont mean to render it useless! That i dont want and I am against it. But you cant have all the afvantages on your side. Its like the old myrmidon days when it could tank threee battleships (overpowered).
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hanna Red In the real world when you talk about covert, you will [be] discovered if you remain still within an area for too long.
Er, yeah, but thats because in the real world you don't get electro-magnetically enveloped spacecraft, nor do you get the opportunity to stay still in the vastness of an empy 3 dimensional area. If such things were possible, however, I think that it would be extremely unlikely that you'd be discovered. Space is really big, you see. And if you could shield something from electromagnetic sensors, then you would be truly invisible... people would only notice when the bumped into you.
And in Eve you DO decloak if someone comes near you - thats how you get discovered. However, if you're moderately careful, you can reduce the chance of being discovered to almost nil... either being at a safespot, or far enough off the object you're watching. I don't see this as being a problem.
---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Hanna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: necrosia demora Edited by: necrosia demora on 31/10/2009 00:18:46
Originally by: Hanna Red
If you want to do recon, great do, but be active at it, but stay afk waiting for oppurtunity to strike without no way to get you, that just wrong, specially when u can be in a system without no way of scaning you out.
that bit is wrong.
the recon/covert ops game is that of patience not activity. the whole point of covert ops is not being seen whilst gathering information. the SAS set up covert ops lasting months and im sure people like the FBI do it for even longer. the SAS may do it through camouflage were the FBI might do it throw infaltration. in the case of the covert ops cloak this is in the same catagory as the SAS. a camouflaged ship(person) which hides in plain sight. no one can see it or even know its there. the only way to find a camouflaged thing like this is to step on it. no ammount of night vision/thermal imaginging or satalite telemetry is going to spot it if you dont know its there.
animals do the same thing. try spoting a camelion in a tree. the cloak is just the same. the camelion sits still meaning knowone can see it unless they get too close (2000m in eve).
Yeah but a person cannot cyno a fleet can it speacially a black ops one in real life? The whole idea of it been fully stealthy all the time without been spotted is wrong speacially when you can cyno lots of ships. Bare in mind its great that you can cyno and makes this very nice attribute and makes it interesting, but for the ship also remain unscanable for 24 hours in a system, thats wrong. Dont matter how you put it. If the enemy knows you are in this visinity, you will be spotted by armies been sent to catch you. Guaranteed! No SAS will remain stealthy once they know you are in the area. |
Phootaba
Gallente Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Hanna Red
Yeah but a person cannot cyno a fleet can it speacially a black ops one in real life? The whole idea of it been fully stealthy all the time without been spotted is wrong speacially when you can cyno lots of ships. Bare in mind its great that you can cyno and makes this very nice attribute and makes it interesting, but for the ship also remain unscanable for 24 hours in a system, thats wrong. Dont matter how you put it. If the enemy knows you are in this visinity, you will be spotted by armies been sent to catch you. Guaranteed! No SAS will remain stealthy once they know you are in the area.
So, change local? ^^
What you're implying in RL is that you will be seen sooner or later. There's a big difference with RL "camouflage" and Eve "cloaking". In RL you blend in. In Eve... Well you can't blend in right? There's a **** load of space with no stuff in it. So you will have to be rendered invisible. You can't hide on an asteroid (and even if you would, that nasty Armageddon over there would just shoot you through the asteroid) You could make the ships "active" sensors go passive. Then you still would not be able to probe the ship out since all the probes in eve actually listens to stuff. Like someone else pointed out, if you shut the sensor suite off so no one can "listen" to you. They still will not be able to see you unless they bump in to you.
So, no physics in eve! \o/ Point is, psychological warfare is just so effective as the targets mind is weak.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:04:00 -
[27]
This thread is hilarious.
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Phootaba
Gallente Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mag's This thread is hilarious.
Good thing!
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Dr Karsun
Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:09:00 -
[29]
I propose cloacking device fuel. I think this idea was posted somewhere.
Cov ops ships should still have next to none consumption of it (since they are specially prepared for it), but all other ships should eat it up like candy. Working like ammo for a gun. Still, any other frig-bs should be able to stay cloacked for 2-3 minutes without a problem. No idea how much exactly it would consume, but I guess it'd be a step in the right direction.
And I'm not moaning about cov ops ships, really, I love them and I feel that it should stay as it is, that they can camp endlessly, but all other ships should be highly limited.
Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
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Tyrantin
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Posted - 2009.10.31 13:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dr Karsun I propose cloacking device fuel. I think this idea was posted somewhere.
Cov ops ships should still have next to none consumption of it (since they are specially prepared for it), but all other ships should eat it up like candy. Working like ammo for a gun. Still, any other frig-bs should be able to stay cloacked for 2-3 minutes without a problem. No idea how much exactly it would consume, but I guess it'd be a step in the right direction.
And I'm not moaning about cov ops ships, really, I love them and I feel that it should stay as it is, that they can camp endlessly, but all other ships should be highly limited.
I agree with this!!! It is a verry good idea!
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