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Golden Helmet
Caldari The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:43:00 -
[1]
Tachyon II powergrid requirements WITH Adv Weapon Upgrades 5 (which I have): 3712.5 425mm Railgun II without AWU 5: 2625 1400mm Arty II without AWU 5: 3575
Now, go max out your fitting skills. Include AWU 5 on that list. Go try to fit 8 Tachyon 2's on an Abaddon. Yeah... can't do it, can you? Not without fitting mods.
Abaddon powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250. Powergrid used for 8 Tachyon 2's w\ AWU 5: 29700 To make 8 Tachyon 2's fit, you need one T2 reactor control. Or, if you don't have grid upgrades 5, two reactor controls.
Lets look at the Megathron now:
Megathron powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 425mm 2's w\ AWU 5: 16537.5
Hey, looky here, a Mega can fill it's available turret slots with it's top-tier long-range weapon without any help! But, what about Minmatar?
Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305
Maelstrom powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250 Powergrid used for a rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 25750
Well whadaya know, Gallente aren't the only ones who can fill their turret slots with top-tier ranged toys! And lets not forget the fact that a single Tachyon 2 uses more powergrid WITH AWU 5 than the others do WITHOUT AWU trained at all. Kinda makes me sad panda.
Now, I'm used to amarr getting the short end of the stick. We have an assault frigate with one med slot (fix plzkthnx?), we have the small-tier Medium Beam \ Pulse Lasers, which are prettymuch unfitable to their intended class without ruining the rest of your ship. But come on, enough with the Amarr hate already, at least let us fit our tier 2 and 3 battleships with the equivalent that Gallente and Minmatar can (I didn't bring the Rokh up in this because, simply, it's trash. It's damage wouldn't break the tank of a sleeping wet paper bag. Go away caldari fanboys.)
And that'll do it for today. Yes I would like some cheese with my whine. At least I'm posting with my main, unlike probably half the replies from cowards this topic will get
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arbalesttom
Caldari Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:47:00 -
[2]
THis must be the best topic ive seen in days, since its amarr whining and not made by jonny! Thanks for making my day
***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
Originally by: Mitnal Locked, one troll after another.
Mitnal, Community Representative
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Golden Helmet
Caldari The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:49:00 -
[3]
Originally by: arbalesttom THis must be the best topic ive seen in days, since its amarr whining and not made by jonny! Thanks for making my day
yeah, I figure theres dozens of other Amarr whines out there, but all I want changed is the Tachyons (and maybe the Retribution? Please?). The rest of amarr is fine, imho.
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Donny HoBo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:57:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Donny HoBo on 02/03/2008 01:57:47
Originally by: Golden Helmet
Originally by: arbalesttom THis must be the best topic ive seen in days, since its amarr whining and not made by jonny! Thanks for making my day
yeah, I figure theres dozens of other Amarr whines out there, but all I want changed is the Tachyons (and maybe the Retribution? Please?). The rest of amarr is fine, imho.
You have picked the most realistic Amarr "problem" for a fix. However, Megabeams out perform 1400mm and will do even more so once the resistance changes go thro. 1400mm are a joke since the changes to tracking computers because they have awful tracking AND awful optimal.
I dont want to derail your thread too much, so lets compare the performance of tachyons to 425mm rails. Both of them perform well yet I agree the fitting on the tachyons is excessive. However, dont forget the much higher CPU requirements of the rails. It may not be a massive problem but it is a factor in balancing fitting. A slight reduction in power grid needs OR a slight improvement to RoF (say 2%, tachyon alpha is already too high :P) would be acceptable.
I am Donny HoBo, Jonny MoJo's more intelligent Minmatar cousin. |
Arkios Odymei
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:59:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 02/03/2008 02:00:19
Originally by: Golden Helmet yeah, I figure theres dozens of other Amarr whines out there, but all I want changed is the Tachyons (and maybe the Retribution? Please?). The rest of amarr is fine, imho.
Yea, and No. Have you looked at the other stats of the Tach's vs the stats of other guns. They are an echelon higher than that the other race's highest tier guns. The retri could use some mid slot love tho... ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Amberly Coteaz
Amarr Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:09:00 -
[6]
Well now that the Apoc is having its role changed to be the Amarr 'sniper BS', maybe the Abbadon could have a little more base powergrid so you can fit a full rack of Tachs with a tiny bit of PG to spare with AWU V. Idea being you are trading the range and cap use of the Apoc for the damage of the Abbadon.
Of course you would still need a fitting mod for plates, cap boster etc etc.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong |
Testpilot XY
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:34:00 -
[7]
tachyons really need some PG reduction... but it¦s not only PG it¦s the high CPU use too
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Golden Helmet
Caldari The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Golden Helmet on 02/03/2008 02:48:07 Tachyons, more or less, are the middle ground in sniper weaponry. They have the highest DPS in comparison with 425mm 2's and 1400mm 2's, but their volley damage suffers. I hate to do this, but I'm going to play EFT warrior here for a moment. All stats are with the following skills:
Rapid firing 5 Surgical strike 4 (yes I suck) Railgun \ beam \ arty spec 4 (I only have beam 4 in the real game, the rest are EFT switches) Battleship lvl4
All setups have three damage mods each. All turrets are loaded with their T2 range ammo.
Abaddon (with it's 5% laser damage per level, which the Apoc doesn't get):
590 DPS 3170 volley damage
Megathron:
322 DPS 1695 volley damage
Maelstrom:
341 DPS 3544 volley damage.
Between these three ships, the Abaddon has a clear advantage in DPS, which would indeed make it a better choice for a drawn out fight. However, when a quick volley is all you get (i.e., solo sniping, hit-and-run sniper fleet, etc), the Maelstrom is the better choice. The megathron, without any range modifications, has the best base optimal range w\ sharpshooter 5, trajectory 4, and Spike L loaded, 130km vs the Abaddon's 119km.
However, now we touch on to the capacitor problem. With the rank 1 cap skill to 5 (I forget it's name), the rank 3 to 4, and Controlled Bursts to 4, the Abaddon's capacitor, with nothing but Tachyons w\ Aurora and three heatsinks, lasts a whopping 1 minute 43 seconds, compared to the Megathron's similarly fitted 6 minutes 29 seconds. The Maelstrom, obviously, will keep on firing long after both these ships cap out.
I'm not here to argue about the capacitor useage though. All I want is for Tachyons to be a little more fitable. The volley damage isn't high enough to justify them using more powergrid w\ AWU 5 than the others do with no AWU at all. The DPS is indeed higher, but when you only get a volley or two, it doesn't matter, especially when your not gonna be shooting for very long anyways. I'll settle for a nerfed RoF to bring it in line with arties. Just make them fitable
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Nasta443
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Golden Helmet
Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305
Oh yeah baby you know it. 70 full points of powergrid goodness available to uh.... uh....
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Testpilot XY tachyons really need some PG reduction... but it¦s not only PG it¦s the high CPU use too
I remember the dev blog long ago that said
"we don't want other races fitting the overpowered ammar weapons so lets increase powergrid to insane levels!) but then it was like
but we can't incease the powergrid of the ammar ships or they will just fit other races weapons for better tank..
and the would thing just fell apart :P
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:47:00 -
[11]
Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.02 08:56:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 08:56:32
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me.
They also have shorter range? Blasters do highest damage because the have shortest range you know. Are blasters impossible to fit because the do highest damage? Nope. So your point was what? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.03.02 08:59:00 -
[13]
tachs to ALOT more dps than other long range weapons and now whit apoc changes they are going to be insanely good :)
tachs all the way ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 09:33:00 -
[14]
You smelly amarr whiners /shakes fist. Tachyons are on a league of their own. If you want to compare "top tier" guns, compare megabeams with 425's and 1400mm's.
Take it from someone that actualy flies all the ships you're comparing...
Amarr have more issues with their lesser ships (like the pilgrim) than their BS's.... I think you're going to like the new apoc a lot btw |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 09:44:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 02/03/2008 09:44:40 I agree with the OP.
Currently Tachyon II's use a large amount of powergrid and cap usage. As a PvP pilot, you can look me up on bob killboard and you can see that I have a lot of experience flying Amarr ships. Its been a year since I last flew the zealot though, but I would like to think I know my stuff when it comes to laserships (Amarr and Sansha)
Abaddon has reasonable DPS for a minute or two. Thats ok if all you plan on doing is a cheap 1-2 volley gank and run. Usually in these "Gank" situations, high alpha matters, and although the Abaddon has a high alpha, there are other ships with even more Alpha, and thus, are more suited to the "hit and run Role".
However, a lot of eve pvp takes longer than a minute or two. Typically, they can last 30mins+ where sustainability of cap matters most. Abaddon is not suited to fleets, but even the apoc has a few issues with a full rack of guns.
Now I do not claim to be the worlds best Amarr expert, and I am sure some non-amarr pilot who knows more about Amarr ships than people who fly them will try to correct me, but I think that Tachyon II's really need to be looked at, since the powergrid requirements are obviously far too high. So to the OP, I agree with you 100%, but I would also like to see a cap reduction to Lasers as well to make them competitive with non-laser ships. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2008.03.02 09:59:00 -
[16]
Tachyon beams provide one of, if not the, highest alpha strike and does so without sacrificing too much dps. Having to use 1-2 fitting mods is a fair trade-off for that kind of power in my opinion. Hell, even if you fit the full rack as you seem to want to the cap drain will kill you before the ship is aligned out, ever tried firing 8 Tachyons on the Abbadon, or 7 on a Armageddon?
Megabeams use about the same number of slots in order to reach the range of the Tachyons making it a matter of swapping DPS for Alpha
Side note: Provided the suggested changes to the Apocalypse go through you will never need to fit Tachyons on any other ship as it will fit a full fleet fit without too much trouble.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 10:08:00 -
[17]
It's just weird sometimes... Flying amarr myself (and to the max with my alt) and being -generaly- pleased with the ships, I have a question for those requesting buffs on lasers: Why is the ammo-less aspect of them always forgotten? (now noone says anything about volatility now, you know what I mean!) |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.02 10:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ElCoCo It's just weird sometimes... Flying amarr myself (and to the max with my alt) and being -generaly- pleased with the ships, I have a question for those requesting buffs on lasers:
I don't think lasers need a boost. Not a general one though. I'd like med sized lasers to be more viable. Fmps need some tweaking imo and well med beams... Won't work without tweaking the ships too though and ccp has apparently decided against that.
Originally by: ElCoCo
Why is the ammo-less aspect of them always forgotten? (now noone says anything about volatility now, you know what I mean!)
In my experience small scale battles aren't long enough to force anyone to reload. My mates in megas/phoons/ravens can happily fire away just like i do in 99% of situations. For me its the range of the bs sized pulse lasers that is fun and a real advantage to other weapon systems.
Fleet battles may take much longer and thus people will lose dps to reloading. On the other hand laser ships will have sustainability problems as another poster mentioned. So while they don't need to reload that still does not imply they can shoot "more" over the course of an engagement imo.
For me crystals with less shots (say about 100 per crystal for t2) might even be more appealing. That way i don't waste millions and millions in ammo everytime i get killed.
With the new apoc i am not convinced tachyons need any changes though. Abaddon and geddon arent good snipers in my opinion and i think apoc is spot on.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 10:51:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 02/03/2008 10:53:42
Originally by: ElCoCo It's just weird sometimes... Flying amarr myself (and to the max with my alt) and being -generaly- pleased with the ships, I have a question for those requesting buffs on lasers: Why is the ammo-less aspect of them always forgotten? (now noone says anything about volatility now, you know what I mean!)
Because t2 Amarr ammo is the most expensive perhaps and decays? Or it is perhaps because Amarr Ammo reload time is Capacitor recharge time?
Seriously, Ammo is so cheap, you can put hours worth of ammo into most ships in this game. I dont know anyone who thinks ammo is a OMG aspect of Amarr. Quite the reverse in fact.
Personally, myself and most amarr pilots I know would like conventional "per shot" ammo for Amarr, due to the large number of Crystal bugs in this game.
Also, you said in anotehr post that Tachyons are "oversized". I do not beleive this to be the case because Megabeams lack range and require four or five tracking enhancers to compete with a 425 II or 1400 user. Megabeams also have poor DPS etc, but I can see that you are trying to troll Amarr with your posts. You killboard stats show you are a Minmatar/Gallente player and not a Amarr one. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.03.02 10:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lord WarATron You killboard stats show you are a Minmatar/Gallente player and not a Amarr one.
that means nothing.... i know alot about flying amarr and fly amarr.. but if u look at my KB stats.. it shows im minni and gallente char.
i have a another char who is skilled only in amarr whit very good skills.
i dont bother logging that account on to post in threads... i rather use my main :D ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
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Wideen
Eon Project Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:00:00 -
[21]
didn't CCP state in their blog that they were changing the PG req for lasers, or did that just apply to pulses?
Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:06:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Golden Helmet
Originally by: arbalesttom THis must be the best topic ive seen in days, since its amarr whining and not made by jonny! Thanks for making my day
yeah, I figure theres dozens of other Amarr whines out there, but all I want changed is the Tachyons (and maybe the Retribution? Please?). The rest of amarr is fine, imho.
It's also an 'amarr whine' that makes a valid point.
All BS have difficulty fitting a rack of top-tier long range, to the point where it's difficult to fit a MWD (unless we're talking Gallente)
But some of the fittings space on some of the ships is a bit silly.
I'd also like to add in, that the Omen also need a bit more powergrid - it can't fit a rack of top tier guns either (be it short range or long range).
Although I would like to add into your comparison the Rokh:
8x 425mm IIs takes 18910/18750.
So it too, needs a fittings mod - although a power diag will probably do the trick, which is all round more useful than an RCU.
So I think it more comes down to the question: Should a Tier 2 or Tier 3 BS be able to fit a 'full rack' of top tier weapons, without needing fittings mods?
In my opinion, yes. Tier 2, maybe not so much - Tempest can fit 6x 1400mms (but only have 70 grid left), Raven can fit 6x Sieges (which are short range, but missiles are funny about fittings for longrange weapons).
Megathron can actually fit 7 turrets, and a launcher (and a plate) without a fittings mod.
Apoc can similarly, only fit 6 tachyons, without fittings mods.
So it's a bit more arguable about the tier 2s, teir 3s there's definitely a good case to be made.
Ships shouldn't have to fit _multiple_ fittings modes to fit _just_ a rack of top tier weapons. Sure, to shoehorn a MWD on, by all means.
TL;DR - I agree with the OP. Either a bit more grid on the amarr ships that can't fit a full rack, or a bit less grid used for tachs. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:16:00 -
[23]
I agree with the op. More important, I think CCP agree, too, bacause they spoke about reducing the PG of beams in general in a future patch. ------------------------------------------
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adriaans
Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:21:00 -
[24]
Edited by: adriaans on 02/03/2008 11:22:43
Originally by: Wideen didn't CCP state in their blog that they were changing the PG req for lasers, or did that just apply to pulses?
that sadly ONLY applied to ONE FRIGATE sized pulse...
to those who are saying tachyons do a lot of damage, they do not compared to cap use and fittings compared to other races... even though not of good comparison, megapulses do more dps...(at ALMOST same ranges....)(100km+ megapulse apoc after changes anyone?)
ohh, heavy pulses and heavy beams (medium weapons) need some slightly lower fittings too! now that i think of it...our cruisers can hardly fit focused medium pulses even...:/ -sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! (Or make Amarr the only race able to deal EM damage from turrets).
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shadowsword I agree with the op. More important, I think CCP agree, too, bacause they spoke about reducing the PG of beams in general in a future patch.
Seeing how reluctant they are to give even the omen some pg fearing it could suddenly become the most overpowered and feared cruiser in the galaxy - don't hold your breath.
On the other hand the apoc gets +1000pg with one of the next patches. Keep that in mind if talking about balancing tachyons. With the new changes i can't really see anyone fitting tachyons on an abaddon apart from maybe missions. Geddon isn't suited for tachyons and will never be. So mainly tachyons are the apocs weapon system. As long as you can make good fits on that ship its sufficient imo.
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Staggerr
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:29:00 -
[26]
Lets make everything the same guise! durrr...
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:32:00 -
[27]
You're ******* nuts op.
The insane dps advantage is what sets tachs apart, and that is how it should remain. Better dps, for worse fitting and slightly less range.
The cap issue is a ship problem, and is compensated for by the fact that the already better dps gets increased by a large margin on the abba.
So, no, no change needed.
[center] Old blog |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 12:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Also, you said in anotehr post that Tachyons are "oversized". I do not beleive this to be the case because Megabeams lack range and require four or five tracking enhancers to compete with a 425 II or 1400 user. Megabeams also have poor DPS etc, but I can see that you are trying to troll Amarr with your posts. You killboard stats show you are a Minmatar/Gallente player and not a Amarr one.
Well tachyons are oversized, aren't they? They are certainly more damaging than any other type of BS longrage weapon out there. The fact that fleet battles take place at 150+ ranges is another thing and not the gun's problem, no? It's not like the tempest/maelstrom can comfortably reach those ranges without being in their falloff. An 8 Megabeam abaddon has muc higher DPS and alpha than your usual megathron and a 7 tachyon abaddon (using a single PDU2 while having mwd+medium cap injector) is even better. You might agree with me if you flew the other ships.
I only have Amarr BS4 with coco that's why you don't see me flying amarr BS's lots, but my alt is all 5/5/5/5/5.... but I dunno why I have to justify myself to you. Trolling? Please
My point about no ammo was geared more towards having more free space for capboosters, ability to instantly change ammo to suit your range and all that jig. Pricing was certainly not on my mind.
And then you have to take into account that the armageddon for instance can squeeze in pretty nice damage (by taking advantage of it's lower price and using grid rigs) and be a very nice choice . |
Donny HoBo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.02 12:26:00 -
[29]
Originally by: ElCoCo
Originally by: Lord WarATron Also, you said in anotehr post that Tachyons are "oversized". I do not beleive this to be the case because Megabeams lack range and require four or five tracking enhancers to compete with a 425 II or 1400 user. Megabeams also have poor DPS etc, but I can see that you are trying to troll Amarr with your posts. You killboard stats show you are a Minmatar/Gallente player and not a Amarr one.
Well tachyons are oversized, aren't they? They are certainly more damaging than any other type of BS longrage weapon out there. The fact that fleet battles take place at 150+ ranges is another thing and not the gun's problem, no? It's not like the tempest/maelstrom can comfortably reach those ranges without being in their falloff. An 8 Megabeam abaddon has muc higher DPS and alpha than your usual megathron and a 7 tachyon abaddon (using a single PDU2 while having mwd+medium cap injector) is even better. You might agree with me if you flew the other ships.
I only have Amarr BS4 with coco that's why you don't see me flying amarr BS's lots, but my alt is all 5/5/5/5/5.... but I dunno why I have to justify myself to you. Trolling? Please
My point about no ammo was geared more towards having more free space for capboosters, ability to instantly change ammo to suit your range and all that jig. Pricing was certainly not on my mind.
And then you have to take into account that the armageddon for instance can squeeze in pretty nice damage (by taking advantage of it's lower price and using grid rigs) and be a very nice choice .
Just to add to your points.
He falsely states that mega beams need tracking enhancer to compete with 1400mm arties. This is totally false, mega beams out perform the arties without ANY tracking mods let alone with them.
I am Donny HoBo, Jonny MoJo's more intelligent Minmatar cousin. |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 12:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Donny HoBo He falsely states that mega beams need tracking enhancer to compete with 1400mm arties. This is totally false, mega beams out perform the arties without ANY tracking mods let alone with them.
Please don't help when you're wrong, ok? 1400mm's have a slight edge on megabeams due to their big falloff, but ofcourse they track badly... which isn't our problem here but range is. |
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Donny HoBo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.02 12:57:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Donny HoBo on 02/03/2008 12:58:59
Originally by: ElCoCo
Originally by: Donny HoBo He falsely states that mega beams need tracking enhancer to compete with 1400mm arties. This is totally false, mega beams out perform the arties without ANY tracking mods let alone with them.
Please don't help when you're wrong, ok? 1400mm's have a slight edge on megabeams due to their big falloff, but ofcourse they track badly... which isn't our problem here but range is.
Sorry, but it is you who are wrong in this instance. In EFT paper DPS world 1400mms have a slight edge. In reality fall off is a bad joke and mega beams out perform 1400mms arties.
I will let you off tho. As I stated before comparing lasers to artillery is a bad idea because artillery is broken and needs to be boosted (relative to their short range counter parts - all projectiles need boosting and poulse lasers need to be nerfed). Beam lasers should be compared to rails as rails are well balanced. Artillery should also be compared to rails and then boosted accordingly. Since the introduction of scripts artillery in fleet/long range combat are useless and need their optimal range or damage increase to compensate.
Sorry for the slight derailment.
I am Donny HoBo, Jonny MoJo's more intelligent Minmatar cousin. |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 13:04:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Donny HoBo Sorry, but it is you who are wrong in this instance. In EFT paper DPS world 1400mms have a slight edge. In reality fall off is a bad joke and mega beams out perform 1400mms arties.
What EFT are you on about? 1400mmm's have the same base optimal to megabeams so when having the same ammount of tracking enhancers/computers fitted they sure outperform (range-wise) the megabeams. It's not (too) bad fighting in falloff, especialy when it's 60km long. Tracking is not a real issue (for the ranges LordW is worrying about). |
vostok
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.03.02 14:28:00 -
[33]
ok well it was only mentioned once, and i cant be certain on this so please correct me if im wrong here:
the new apoc will be getting the cap bonus built in, an increase powergrid, and a 7.5% bonus to range.
before people whine about it being less than the rokh's 10% take a minute to think (or just read here) about what that means:
permarunning a full rack of tachs
outdamaging a rokh at up to 180km
imo this will make the apoc, even without its damage bonus, the new sniping king.
lets face it, the rokh is only useful in combat over 100km below which (assuming its not blaster fitted) it falls behind all the other races in terms of damage.
the apoc will also have a higher alpha than a rokh though it will require fitting mods still. saying that however... the tach is a tier above all other guns, seriously.
all that said, this only makes the tach truly useful IF ccp decide this is what they want to do with the apoc and dont just give it a neut bonus or something like that
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Testpilot XY
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Posted - 2008.03.02 16:49:00 -
[34]
PG it¦s not the only issue with tachyons. the Beam CPU use is the bigger problem.. (you can¦t even fit a damage control on most amarr fleet fittings)
CPU APOC: 500 /8 turrets Rokh: 780 /8 turrets Tempest: 550 /only needs 6 turrets Mega: 550 /only needs 7 turrets
here the weapon CPU use:
1400mm arties: 47 425mm rails: 77 Tachyon: 63 Megabeam 58
ps: the apoc boost (on sisi) is the wrong way to fix amarr.. because this will NOT fix the broken lasers
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vostok
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.03.02 17:12:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Testpilot XY PG it¦s not the only issue with tachyons. the Beam CPU use is the bigger problem.. (you can¦t even fit a damage control on most amarr fleet fittings)
CPU APOC: 500 /8 turrets Rokh: 780 /8 turrets Tempest: 550 /only needs 6 turrets Mega: 550 /only needs 7 turrets
here the weapon CPU use:
1400mm arties: 47 425mm rails: 77 Tachyon: 63 Megabeam 58
ps: the apoc boost (on sisi) is the wrong way to fix amarr.. because this will NOT fix the broken lasers
thought I would elaborate on what you said a little
CPU usage:
apoc(tach) - 378/625 - 60% apoc(mega) - 348/625 - 56% abaddon(tach) - 378/700 - 54% abaddon(mega) - 348/700 - 50% rokh - 462/975 - 47% megathron - 404.25/687.5 - 59% tempest - 211.5/687.5 - 31% maelstrom - 282/800 - 35%
from this all I can see is that minmatar use the smallest % of their cpu, the apoc isnt much worse than the megathron using tachs and is better for cpu usage with megapulse, the abaddon being better for cpu than both.
Also considering that the rokh temp and maelstrom have such low cpu usage, it should be remembered that all of these ships can shield tank, thus if that were to be a viable option for them they would need more cpu, and if you don't know why, look at an XL shield booster II
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.02 17:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: vostok
Originally by: Testpilot XY PG it¦s not the only issue with tachyons. the Beam CPU use is the bigger problem.. (you can¦t even fit a damage control on most amarr fleet fittings)
CPU APOC: 500 /8 turrets Rokh: 780 /8 turrets Tempest: 550 /only needs 6 turrets Mega: 550 /only needs 7 turrets
here the weapon CPU use:
1400mm arties: 47 425mm rails: 77 Tachyon: 63 Megabeam 58
ps: the apoc boost (on sisi) is the wrong way to fix amarr.. because this will NOT fix the broken lasers
thought I would elaborate on what you said a little
CPU usage:
apoc(tach) - 378/625 - 60% apoc(mega) - 348/625 - 56% abaddon(tach) - 378/700 - 54% abaddon(mega) - 348/700 - 50% rokh - 462/975 - 47% megathron - 404.25/687.5 - 59% tempest - 211.5/687.5 - 31% maelstrom - 282/800 - 35%
from this all I can see is that minmatar use the smallest % of their cpu, the apoc isnt much worse than the megathron using tachs and is better for cpu usage with megapulse, the abaddon being better for cpu than both.
Also considering that the rokh temp and maelstrom have such low cpu usage, it should be remembered that all of these ships can shield tank, thus if that were to be a viable option for them they would need more cpu, and if you don't know why, look at an XL shield booster II
This is why amarr guns should have such high pg usage, like tachs and medium pulses for example. Because when you fit these youre running out of cpu anyways. The cpu is already limiting amarr from fitting guns and tanks why the added pg penalty too? That only means we need several fitting mods, for cpu AND pg wich is silly because they counter eachother. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
vostok
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:05:00 -
[37]
Edited by: vostok on 02/03/2008 18:06:03
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
This is why amarr guns should have such high pg usage, like tachs and medium pulses for example. Because when you fit these youre running out of cpu anyways. The cpu is already limiting amarr from fitting guns and tanks why the added pg penalty too? That only means we need several fitting mods, for cpu AND pg wich is silly because they counter eachother.
here I think its worth pointing out that the armageddon, lowest power of all the amarr BS has more grid than any gallente or caldari ship, in fact the only other non amarr battleship with more is the maelstrom...
AND all amarr ships have more low slots precisely for those upgrades that you were talking about and as far as a damage/tank (ie non ew) is concerned low > med (and yes I realize that low would normally be considered ''lower'' than med)
and also, those upgrades don't ''counter'' each other, a CPU upgrade uses 1pg and if you can find a VIABLE fitting where 1pg would make a difference please moan to ccp. rcu and pdu do use a lot of cpu in comparison, however, it's not extreme like you seem to be making it out to be. The fact is, the tachyon beam laser is a monstrous gun. sorry to play eft but:
gun dps before bonuses using max damage T1 ammo:
Tachyon Beam Laser II - 45.5 Mega Beam Laser II - 42.1 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II - 31.6 1200mm Artillery Cannon II - 29.9 425mm Railgun II - 36.3 350mm Railgun II - 34.6
ok so there you go, this is why tachyon beam lasers have such a high fitting req, regardless of whether you have problems fitting them or not they do just under 26% more damage than the next best gun - the 425mm rail AND has a bigger optimal and falloff than the 425mm rail.
what more do you want, the tachyon is a class maybe 2 classes above all other guns, amarr are lucky enough to have the option to fit stupidly big guns and yet still you whine?! The problem is that the ships cant take the guns, and now your getting a ship that can, I don't see the problem.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Fruit Fellatio
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:22:00 -
[38]
Edited by: MenanceWhite on 02/03/2008 18:24:32 Megabeams are more like the equivalent of 1400s and 450s. Just see it as Amarr has an extra "even more powerfull but harder to fit" large long range turret, while the other races has an extra "weak but easier to fit" long range turret.
Since it's extra powerfull you're quite obviously supposed to easily be able to fit anywhere close to full rack of them even on BS. ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:47:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 02/03/2008 18:48:42
Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 02/03/2008 18:24:32 Megabeams are more like the equivalent of 1400s and 450s. Just see it as Amarr has an extra "even more powerfull but harder to fit" large long range turret, while the other races has an extra "weak but easier to fit" long range turret.
Since it's extra powerfull you're quite obviously supposed to easily be able to fit anywhere close to full rack of them even on BS.
Dont Minmatar get their Damage bonus's on the ships insted of the guns? How would fitted guns real damage (since guns in cargo do 0dps) compare over a 10-20 minute period?
For example, Doomsday does 0 damage unless it it fitted in a titan. Therefore comparing the damage of unfitted modules is not really giving a balanced approach, wont you agree?
Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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vostok
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.03.02 18:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 02/03/2008 18:48:42
Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 02/03/2008 18:24:32 Megabeams are more like the equivalent of 1400s and 450s. Just see it as Amarr has an extra "even more powerfull but harder to fit" large long range turret, while the other races has an extra "weak but easier to fit" long range turret.
Since it's extra powerfull you're quite obviously supposed to easily be able to fit anywhere close to full rack of them even on BS.
Dont Minmatar get their Damage bonus's on the ships insted of the guns? How would fitted guns real damage (since guns in cargo do 0dps) compare over a 10-20 minute period?
For example, Doomsday does 0 damage unless it it fitted in a titan. Therefore comparing the damage of unfitted modules is not really giving a balanced approach, wont you agree?
sigh your lucky im bored... it'll be in the edit.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Fruit Fellatio
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:08:00 -
[41]
gee, don't you think that I've already taken those facts into the comparison?
Apoc does'nt. So what? New apoc will have optimal bonus. Does rokh have damage bonus? No. ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Donny HoBo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:18:00 -
[42]
Originally by: vostok Edited by: vostok on 02/03/2008 19:17:13 Edited by: vostok on 02/03/2008 19:15:01
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 02/03/2008 18:48:42
Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 02/03/2008 18:24:32 Megabeams are more like the equivalent of 1400s and 450s. Just see it as Amarr has an extra "even more powerfull but harder to fit" large long range turret, while the other races has an extra "weak but easier to fit" long range turret.
Since it's extra powerfull you're quite obviously supposed to easily be able to fit anywhere close to full rack of them even on BS.
Dont Minmatar get their Damage bonus's on the ships insted of the guns? How would fitted guns real damage (since guns in cargo do 0dps) compare over a 10-20 minute period?
For example, Doomsday does 0 damage unless it it fitted in a titan. Therefore comparing the damage of unfitted modules is not really giving a balanced approach, wont you agree?
sigh your lucky im bored...
Abaddon(tach) - 455dps - 113% grid, 54% CPU - 2.75 min cap Apocalypse(tach) - 364dps - 122% grid, 60% CPU - 16.5 min cap [current] Apocalypse(tach) - 364dps - 116% grid, 60% CPU - 16.5 min cap [planned] Maelstrom(1400mm) - 316dps - 98% grid, 35% CPU - N/A Tempest(1400mm) - 296dps - 99.6% grid, 31% CPU - N/A Hyperion(425mm) - 364dps - 96% grid, 62% CPU - 14.5 min cap Megathron(425mm) - 318dps - 85% grid, 59% CPU - 20 min cap Rokh(425mm) - 291dps - 101% grid, 47% CPU - 12 min cap
to me this once again shows that lasers arent't so unreasonable
Looks like proof theyre over powered and doesnt even take into account the craptastic tracking of arties which reduce its damage by atleast 10% compared to the other guns!
I am Donny HoBo, Jonny MoJo's more intelligent Minmatar cousin. |
MenanceWhite
Amarr Fruit Fellatio
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:22:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Donny HoBo
Originally by: vostok - N/A
lol
---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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vostok
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.03.02 19:22:00 -
[44]
Originally by: MenanceWhite gee, don't you think that I've already taken those facts into the comparison?
Apoc does'nt. So what? New apoc will have optimal bonus. Does rokh have damage bonus? No.
it was a viable question I guess, a tempest has a 67% bonus to damage for example, but it loses 33% for only having 6 turrets compared to 8
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Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.03 16:59:00 -
[45]
Originally by: vostok Edited by: vostok on 02/03/2008 19:17:13 Edited by: vostok on 02/03/2008 19:15:01
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt Dont Minmatar get their Damage bonus's on the ships insted of the guns? How would fitted guns real damage (since guns in cargo do 0dps) compare over a 10-20 minute period?
For example, Doomsday does 0 damage unless it it fitted in a titan. Therefore comparing the damage of unfitted modules is not really giving a balanced approach, wont you agree?
sigh your lucky im bored...
Abaddon(tach) - 455dps - 113% grid, 54% CPU - 2.75 min cap Apocalypse(tach) - 364dps - 122% grid, 60% CPU - 16.5 min cap [current] Apocalypse(tach) - 364dps - 116% grid, 60% CPU - 16.5 min cap [planned] Maelstrom(1400mm) - 316dps - 98% grid, 35% CPU - N/A Tempest(1400mm) - 296dps - 99.6% grid, 31% CPU - N/A Hyperion(425mm) - 364dps - 96% grid, 62% CPU - 14.5 min cap Megathron(425mm) - 318dps - 85% grid, 59% CPU - 20 min cap Rokh(425mm) - 291dps - 101% grid, 47% CPU - 12 min cap
to me this once again shows that lasers arent't so unreasonable
Thats a good list but I have a few questions.
1. Are these ships fitted with a real life fitout? Or is it a standard "just guns and 3 damage mods" setup? The reason I ask this is that most of the "just guns and 3 damage mods" setups assume all ships have infinite grid/cpu. A real life setup may have to drop heatsinks for cap realys or tracking or whatever, and thus, create a inaccurate representation. 2. Granted, in gank situations, DPS does not matter at all, because high alpha is king, and most ganks last a minute or two at most. In a non-gank situation, or in a fleet battle (which is why you are doing sniper dps), a ship can be expected to fire for 10mins+, so what is the DPS of each over a 10 or 20 minute period? This would give a fairer representation to the community
Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.03.03 18:13:00 -
[46]
So wait, the fact that you have NO ammo and can stuff your cargohold full of cap charges, and the fact that your tank is all ready stupidly high makes it reasonable to make your highest alpha weapon the BEST in the game? Uh no. I can see giving the cap usage a break but lets keep in mind here that all of the Amarr battleships tank like it's their job. (Which it is.)
Minmatar BS have no clear tanking type so have to depend on fast engagements, and a mega isn't exactly the best rail platform there is.
Truth is that Amarr battleships are not solo ships, they need support to really shine. Ever seen what 8 tach's can do when the abaddon has cap? OUCH. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.03 18:25:00 -
[47]
/me fits tachys to an abby
/me is out of cap
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Borasao
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Posted - 2008.03.03 19:00:00 -
[48]
Quote: So wait, the fact that you have NO ammo
Wrong. Tech2 lenses have 1000 shots each. So, 8 of them is 8000 rounds of ammo. Plus, capacitor is the 'other' ammo. You can't fire if you run out of cap and Amarr weapons drain cap faster than any other. Does 8000 rounds of your favorite tech2 ammo cost the same as stuffing a BC into your cargo bay (roughly 2000+ isk per shot)?
Quote: and can stuff your cargohold full of cap charges, and the fact that your tank is all ready stupidly high
Not when fitting for fleet range fights it isn't... the tank is about the same as any other BS. Most have to fit one or two RCU2s just to fit weapons and a MWD. That leaves 4/5 slots left over for anything else you might want to have in lows... but to reach fleet ranges, you have to put 2x TE2s down there (and a TC in mids)... so you're down to 2/3 slots for anything else. But you need *some* resists and maybe a plate. You're done now. But you also have low CPU so you can't fit too many of those fun things. Your other mids are taken up by SB2s just so you can target to fleet ranges. There's not much variation in what you can fit and still be a fleet sniper (150km+ range) in an Amarr ship (2 low slots is about as much as you can swing... give up resists/plate for damage mods, maybe, but that means you're a big glass cannon).
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.03.03 19:12:00 -
[49]
Given that Tachyons are in a league of their own in terms of damage modifier, I'm comfortable with them being in a league of their own with fitting requirements as well.
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Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.03 19:27:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ulstan Given that Tachyons are in a league of their own in terms of damage modifier, I'm comfortable with them being in a league of their own with fitting requirements as well.
In theory, you are correct. However, I tend to find that if a pilot, for example, is going for ganks, then high alpha matters so abaddon is a good ship as it has a high alpha, even though its not the highist alpha ship. But its a good alpha anyway.
In ganks, your ship does not matter that much, since ganks are like 10 vs 1, or Abaddon vs hauler quickly kill and run style of play. Hence alpha is king. Ammo, cap etc etc dont matter at all. Abaddon is fine for ganks, but ganks are a boring style of eve pvp, so the natural pvp style for a tachyon pilot is fleets.
Fleets, battles tend to last 10mins to several hours+ so a dps is only valid if you do a average dps over 10 mins, including reloads etc. It is here where abaddon, for example, tends to have problems.
So could someone do a chart of average dps over 10-20mins time for realistically fitted ships? I think that such a chart would really help people understand if there is a tachyon issue.
Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.03.03 19:59:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Borasao
Quote: So wait, the fact that you have NO ammo
Wrong. Tech2 lenses have 1000 shots each. So, 8 of them is 8000 rounds of ammo. Plus, capacitor is the 'other' ammo. You can't fire if you run out of cap and Amarr weapons drain cap faster than any other. Does 8000 rounds of your favorite tech2 ammo cost the same as stuffing a BC into your cargo bay (roughly 2000+ isk per shot)?
Quote: and can stuff your cargohold full of cap charges, and the fact that your tank is all ready stupidly high
Not when fitting for fleet range fights it isn't... the tank is about the same as any other BS. Most have to fit one or two RCU2s just to fit weapons and a MWD. That leaves 4/5 slots left over for anything else you might want to have in lows... but to reach fleet ranges, you have to put 2x TE2s down there (and a TC in mids)... so you're down to 2/3 slots for anything else. But you need *some* resists and maybe a plate. You're done now. But you also have low CPU so you can't fit too many of those fun things. Your other mids are taken up by SB2s just so you can target to fleet ranges. There's not much variation in what you can fit and still be a fleet sniper (150km+ range) in an Amarr ship (2 low slots is about as much as you can swing... give up resists/plate for damage mods, maybe, but that means you're a big glass cannon).
To the second part, how is this any different for the other races? The minmatar ships sacrifice quite a lot to fit all their guns, including pretty much any tank whatsoever. And in a fleet fight why would you fit a tank? So those 2 RCU's, oh noes, you have 5-6 slots left for damage mods. Change the cap SLIGHTLY on the tach's, that is all. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit. |
Tearavygh Quillam
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.03 22:44:00 -
[52]
They're fine. I fly minmatar at base on this account. I was planning to train amarr a while back. Since the new amarr changes were announced, training for t2 lasers has become the priority.
The Apoc has some cpu problems even with the annouced +5. If not, lowering the PG requirement will be quite overpowering.
It's better to leave it this way.
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Breed Love
FinFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 03:17:00 -
[53]
Tachs are fine. They have huge dps advantage, the next-biggest alpha and will have the next-longest range on the new apoc. And dont even get me started on the insane hax cheating no-reloading bonus. Try fighting in a real fleet fight in a ship with guns that need to reload and then talk. -----
Originally by: Zhulik I thought Premium graphics were supposed to fix that bug where people were trying to salvage Minmatar ships.
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KD.Fluffy
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.03.04 03:32:00 -
[54]
Signed.
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Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.04 07:50:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 04/03/2008 07:51:53
Originally by: Breed Love Tachs are fine. They have huge dps advantage, the next-biggest alpha and will have the next-longest range on the new apoc. And dont even get me started on the insane hax cheating no-reloading bonus. Try fighting in a real fleet fight in a ship with guns that need to reload and then talk.
Actually, it is visulisation that effects peoples perception of no-reload.
For example, if you have 20 mins lag, and thus reloading your guns takes 20 mins. Thus once they have reloaded and the player has clicked to fire, that is another 20 mins on top for the server to register.
This makes people think a 20min lag is actually a 40min lag on guns with reload. This is not actually true, it is a error on the part of players who do not know how to handle lag in reloading ships.
Basically its pretty simple to be honest. Its called reloading in advance. If your ship fires for 5 mins without reloading, then simply hit CTRL-R roughtly 5 mins after you first pass your firing command. Eve stacks up orders and even though you may not have started firing yet, your guns will reload properly after they start firing. You can queue up multiple fire and reloads and walk away from the computer if there is 20mins+ lag. Try it, it works. Since lag is not always 100% even, but a fleet 0.0 player should be able to counter lag. Thats how most Supercap pilots deal with lag.
Therefore people who think amarr lasers are viable due to server lag is not accurate. Game balance over poor server hardware is not fesable or acceptable. Saying "Amarr is fine because server is laggy" is not a good way to approach the game, when the counter is managing lag as described above.
Next, Amarr Alpha is decent for Abaddon, but alpha matters in short term gank situations, such as 50 bs vs 1 cruiser. Heck, ships, capacitor, ammo whatever is hardly relevant, as 50 bs is going to easaly kill a cruiser. So its not fair to represent amarr due to the damage of the first volley, or first second of fire, as most Amarr issues are about balance outside of ganks.
Currently most people assume balance on the assumption that ships have infinite cap, infinate grid/cpu and all enemy resistances are 0. This is clearly false, but all charts with Amarr DPS/Alpha make this fundamental mistake. Most Amarr players have to drop heatsinks to fit cap mods or fitting mods (geddon needs 2 RCU II and 1 PDU II Just for fitting tach with mwd, add in 3 tracking enhancers and thats 7 out of 8 lows taken up, leaving 1 lowslot free. Megathron needs no fitting mods for 425 + mwd, and only needs 1-2 tracking enhancer, thus leaving 5-6 lows free)
So I ask if someone can again put together a chart of ships with damage over time, such as a 10-20min period? This is fairly relistic amount of time for fleet warfare.
Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.03.04 11:29:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 08:56:32
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me.
They also have shorter range? Blasters do highest damage because the have shortest range you know. Are blasters impossible to fit because the do highest damage? Nope. So your point was what?
tachyons have LONGER range than 1400mm!! More damage and mode much more DOT sicne they don 't reload every 9 shots. Also much more tracking. They are massively more powerfull thatn arties.
Only drawback is the cap usage. That woudl not be enough to balance it, so they NEED to be a bit harder to fit than 1400mm.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.03.04 11:29:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Golden Helmet Tachyon II powergrid requirements WITH Adv Weapon Upgrades 5 (which I have): 3712.5 425mm Railgun II without AWU 5: 2625 1400mm Arty II without AWU 5: 3575
Now, go max out your fitting skills. Include AWU 5 on that list. Go try to fit 8 Tachyon 2's on an Abaddon. Yeah... can't do it, can you? Not without fitting mods.
Abaddon powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250. Powergrid used for 8 Tachyon 2's w\ AWU 5: 29700 To make 8 Tachyon 2's fit, you need one T2 reactor control. Or, if you don't have grid upgrades 5, two reactor controls.
Lets look at the Megathron now:
Megathron powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 425mm 2's w\ AWU 5: 16537.5
Hey, looky here, a Mega can fill it's available turret slots with it's top-tier long-range weapon without any help! But, what about Minmatar?
Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305
Maelstrom powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250 Powergrid used for a rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 25750
Well whadaya know, Gallente aren't the only ones who can fill their turret slots with top-tier ranged toys! And lets not forget the fact that a single Tachyon 2 uses more powergrid WITH AWU 5 than the others do WITHOUT AWU trained at all. Kinda makes me sad panda.
Now, I'm used to amarr getting the short end of the stick. We have an assault frigate with one med slot (fix plzkthnx?), we have the small-tier Medium Beam \ Pulse Lasers, which are prettymuch unfitable to their intended class without ruining the rest of your ship. But come on, enough with the Amarr hate already, at least let us fit our tier 2 and 3 battleships with the equivalent that Gallente and Minmatar can (I didn't bring the Rokh up in this because, simply, it's trash. It's damage wouldn't break the tank of a sleeping wet paper bag. Go away caldari fanboys.)
And that'll do it for today. Yes I would like some cheese with my whine. At least I'm posting with my main, unlike probably half the replies from cowards this topic will get
It seem artys are a bit hungry on grid too, at least on the tempest, and it only needs to fit six
so if lasers get a buff, buff artys too
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.04 11:44:00 -
[58]
God will love you weather Tachyons are tweaked or not.
Go forth with blessings my son. --------- I had something important to say here but CCP decided in thier infinite wisdom to keep this space as small as possible. Thanks. |
Royaldo
Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.04 12:28:00 -
[59]
tachyon is a size bigger than the others. what you should be comparing is mega beam with 1400 arty or 425 rails.
how do i know this? tomb said it.
and you number freaks..its like watching digi and selim all over again.
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Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:25:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 04/03/2008 16:26:50
Originally by: Royaldo tachyon is a size bigger than the others. what you should be comparing is mega beam with 1400 arty or 425 rails.
how do i know this? tomb said it.
and you number freaks..its like watching digi and selim all over again.
I dont think oversized or undersized makes any difference, because if they are oversized, then megabeams need to be re-balanced as they are currently balanced 350 rails II/1200 II insted of 425 II/1400 II. What matters is game balance I beleive and we need correct charts to work this out. I think that, and yes I have asked a dozen times before, has anyone compiled a chart of
1. DPS from realistic fitouts? Most DPS/Alpha charts assume ships have infinite grid, CPU and cap, and therefore only calculate damage from the first second or first volley. I know that the 160km tachy geddon dps is impossible, because it needs 2 RCU II, 1 PDU II, 3 tracking enhancers II and even if geddon had infinate cap, it would not have enough slots to fit the standard 3 damagemod setups that the charts show. So any realistic charts anyone?
2. DPS for ships over time. A simple chart showing dps from realistic setups over a 10-20 min period, as most fleet pvp involving tachy ships are fleet battles. And 10-20mins+ is realistic. How would I get a DPS over tim chart for that?
Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:55:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Royaldo tachyon is a size bigger than the others. what you should be comparing is mega beam with 1400 arty or 425 rails.
how do i know this? tomb said it.
and you number freaks..its like watching digi and selim all over again.
Can you quote him on that please? I have seen several people refer to this but no one has ever given appropriate proof. Also some people (also without proof as far as i have seen) claim tuxford once said exactly the opposite namely that tachyons should be compared to i.e. 1400. So a clarification by someome who can offer more than hearsay would be cute.
So long as no one can actually link to either comment it really has no substantial meaning to the discussion imo.
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Clone 231C
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:58:00 -
[62]
Me too, All I have ever seen is Tuxford saying that tachyons ARE NOT oversized, so I would like to know where the whole oversized thing comes from.
Too me they look like the long-range blaster equivalent, just with the inherent insane beam fitting requirements.
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Agil TradeAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.04 17:23:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Clone 231C Me too, All I have ever seen is Tuxford saying that tachyons ARE NOT oversized, so I would like to know where the whole oversized thing comes from.
Too me they look like the long-range blaster equivalent, just with the inherent insane beam fitting requirements.
A dev once said that tach have too much fitting for their size a long time ago. Somehow people think this means oversized. The word oversized means nothing, so its a straw man argument. But what I have asked people to do many times, and nobody want to do is to help produce a reasonable realistic chart. The reason I say this is because
1. Most DPS/Alpha charts assume ships have infinite grid, CPU and cap, and therefore only calculate damage from the first second or first volley. I know that the 160km tachy geddon dps is impossible, because it needs 2 RCU II, 1 PDU II, 3 tracking enhancers II and even if geddon had infinate cap, it would not have enough slots to fit the standard 3 damagemod setups that the charts show. So any realistic charts anyone?
2. DPS for ships over time. A simple chart showing dps from realistic setups over a 10-20 min period, as most fleet pvp involving tachy ships are fleet battles. And 10-20mins+ is realistic. How would I get a DPS over tim chart for that?
What tools whould I need to create these charts myself, since I want to see how the ships compare.?
Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
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Clone 231B
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Posted - 2008.03.04 17:30:00 -
[64]
Here is that nifty damage spreadsheet by Naughty boy.
Knock yourself out.
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.04 17:31:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Wu Jiun on 04/03/2008 17:31:25 Found it!
Originally by: TomB
The Mega Beam is the turret kept in line with the 425mm, the Tachyon is a unieq battleship laser only type - can be seen as heavy beam vs. 250mm railgun and medium beam vs. 150mm railgun.
-> http://www.eve-search.com/thread/80584/page/1#3
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Clone 231C
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Posted - 2008.03.04 19:29:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Clone 231C on 04/03/2008 19:31:56 I think I found the part where people are talking about tuxford saying they are the same tier, if not a little misconstrued here.
TomB's quote is 4 years old, and tachyons have been changed a bunch of times since then. Tuxford's quote is a little over a year old and very little has been done to tachyons since then.
I am gonna go with Tuxford and directly compare 1400mms to 425s to Tachyons as he did for balancing purposes.
I forgot to add the link:
Quote: tuxford: We're definitly considering lowering the volume of projectile ammo. I haven't taken a look at the damage over time recently but iirc it did a bit less than both tachyon and 425mm rails but then I was looking at it with emp fitted which does less damage other turret most high damage ammo, which does not hold true for t2 charges
My searching skills suck though. If Megabeams=425s=1400s shouldn't he be comparing those to eachother?
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Breed Love
FinFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 22:11:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 04/03/2008 07:51:53 Actually, it is visulisation that effects peoples perception of no-reload.
For example, if you have 20 mins lag, and thus reloading your guns takes 20 mins. Thus once they have reloaded and the player has clicked to fire, that is another 20 mins on top for the server to register.
This makes people think a 20min lag is actually a 40min lag on guns with reload. This is not actually true, it is a error on the part of players who do not know how to handle lag in reloading ships.
Basically its pretty simple to be honest. Its called reloading in advance. If your ship fires for 5 mins without reloading, then simply hit CTRL-R roughtly 5 mins after you first pass your firing command. Eve stacks up orders and even though you may not have started firing yet, your guns will reload properly after they start firing. You can queue up multiple fire and reloads and walk away from the computer if there is 20mins+ lag. Try it, it works. Since lag is not always 100% even, but a fleet 0.0 player should be able to counter lag. Thats how most Supercap pilots deal with lag.
Therefore people who think amarr lasers are viable due to server lag is not accurate. Game balance over poor server hardware is not fesable or acceptable. Saying "Amarr is fine because server is laggy" is not a good way to approach the game, when the counter is managing lag as described above.
Next, Amarr Alpha is decent for Abaddon, but alpha matters in short term gank situations, such as 50 bs vs 1 cruiser. Heck, ships, capacitor, ammo whatever is hardly relevant, as 50 bs is going to easaly kill a cruiser. So its not fair to represent amarr due to the damage of the first volley, or first second of fire, as most Amarr issues are about balance outside of ganks.
Currently most people assume balance on the assumption that ships have infinite cap, infinate grid/cpu and all enemy resistances are 0. This is clearly false, but all charts with Amarr DPS/Alpha make this fundamental mistake. Most Amarr players have to drop heatsinks to fit cap mods or fitting mods (geddon needs 2 RCU II and 1 PDU II Just for fitting tach with mwd, add in 3 tracking enhancers and thats 7 out of 8 lows taken up, leaving 1 lowslot free. Megathron needs no fitting mods for 425 + mwd, and only needs 1-2 tracking enhancer, thus leaving 5-6 lows free)
So I ask if someone can again put together a chart of ships with damage over time, such as a 10-20min period? This is fairly relistic amount of time for fleet warfare.
What you are describing is all well known and is being done, however it doesnt work nearly as well as you make it sound. There is no such thing as "20 min lag", it changes all the time. At one point it might be 2 min, then your next command is delayed by 10 mins.
You could ofcourse solve this by hitting ctrl-r every second for the whole time your guns fire, but spamming requests creates even more lag. Also, even if you manage to time it well and your guns reload quickly, you still need to activate them afterwards. And no, you can't "queue up multiple fire and reloads" because once your guns are on, hitting f1-f8 again will keep sending a deactivation request till they are off.
Considering all of the above its obvious that amarr ships are superior in fleet battles.
And yeah, factoring in lag in ship balancing is a bit lame, but its way better than eft number balancing imo. Ships should be balanced after real in-game situations, not paper numbers. -----
Originally by: Zhulik I thought Premium graphics were supposed to fix that bug where people were trying to salvage Minmatar ships.
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SirDanceAlot
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.14 18:57:00 -
[68]
/signed. Fix tachs.
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Dorah Hawkwing
Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:14:00 -
[69]
WTT: Need to reload vs need to re-CAP.
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SirDanceAlot
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Dorah Hawkwing WTT: Need to reload vs need to re-CAP.
Yeah, cap boosters take alot more space and fitting.
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Bellum Eternus
Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:29:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Golden Helmet Tachyon II powergrid requirements WITH Adv Weapon Upgrades 5 (which I have): 3712.5 425mm Railgun II without AWU 5: 2625 1400mm Arty II without AWU 5: 3575
Now, go max out your fitting skills. Include AWU 5 on that list. Go try to fit 8 Tachyon 2's on an Abaddon. Yeah... can't do it, can you? Not without fitting mods.
Abaddon powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250. Powergrid used for 8 Tachyon 2's w\ AWU 5: 29700 To make 8 Tachyon 2's fit, you need one T2 reactor control. Or, if you don't have grid upgrades 5, two reactor controls.
Lets look at the Megathron now:
Megathron powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 425mm 2's w\ AWU 5: 16537.5
Hey, looky here, a Mega can fill it's available turret slots with it's top-tier long-range weapon without any help! But, what about Minmatar?
Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305
Maelstrom powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250 Powergrid used for a rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 25750
Well whadaya know, Gallente aren't the only ones who can fill their turret slots with top-tier ranged toys! And lets not forget the fact that a single Tachyon 2 uses more powergrid WITH AWU 5 than the others do WITHOUT AWU trained at all. Kinda makes me sad panda.
Now, I'm used to amarr getting the short end of the stick. We have an assault frigate with one med slot (fix plzkthnx?), we have the small-tier Medium Beam \ Pulse Lasers, which are prettymuch unfitable to their intended class without ruining the rest of your ship. But come on, enough with the Amarr hate already, at least let us fit our tier 2 and 3 battleships with the equivalent that Gallente and Minmatar can (I didn't bring the Rokh up in this because, simply, it's trash. It's damage wouldn't break the tank of a sleeping wet paper bag. Go away caldari fanboys.)
And that'll do it for today. Yes I would like some cheese with my whine. At least I'm posting with my main, unlike probably half the replies from cowards this topic will get
As soon as Gallente has 800mm Railgun IIs.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
X99 Z990
the united Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:46:00 -
[72]
Even mega beams are really powergrid heavy.
CPU doesnt look much in comparison but its really tough on amarr ships both PG and CPU wise.
Would be nice to see their fittings reduced. Im not sure what balance issues would arise but they arent often used out of standard fleet setups. With tachyons they do similar damage to mega pulses so should still be fairly tight on fittings, but being able to fit a rack of mega beams without a powergrid mod would be really nice.
General CPU decrease on a lot of lasers would be best i think. The powergrid doesnt bother me as much as the CPU in most cases.
Only beams that tend to get used are dual light beams on crusaders, heavy beams on zealots and tachyons on fleet setups. They are a real pain to use and should be eased up a little.
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sdthujfg
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:45:00 -
[73]
Originally by: X99 Z990 Even mega beams are really powergrid heavy.
CPU doesnt look much in comparison but its really tough on amarr ships both PG and CPU wise.
Would be nice to see their fittings reduced. Im not sure what balance issues would arise but they arent often used out of standard fleet setups. With tachyons they do similar damage to mega pulses so should still be fairly tight on fittings, but being able to fit a rack of mega beams without a powergrid mod would be really nice.
General CPU decrease on a lot of lasers would be best i think. The powergrid doesnt bother me as much as the CPU in most cases.
Only beams that tend to get used are dual light beams on crusaders, heavy beams on zealots and tachyons on fleet setups. They are a real pain to use and should be eased up a little.
QFT. Beams really need to be looked at.
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Amira Shadowsong
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:39:00 -
[74]
Imo the problem is that beams and lasers take too much pg and that has starting to become a problem compared to their performance on ship fitting. CCP cant give the pg for amarr ships to let them fit enough of these but at the same time avoiding them to fit fifty plates.
Lasers need a pg and a cap use fix.
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Deschenus Maximus
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.03.17 17:19:00 -
[75]
TBH, with the new Apoc, I think Megabeams are better. They allow you to have a much better all-around fit, and you don't actually lose much DPS at all. The only thing that held Megabeams back from being good sniper weapons was their lack of range, which is no longer the case when fitted to the Poc.
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Angelic Eviaran
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.19 17:30:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus TBH, with the new Apoc, I think Megabeams are better. They allow you to have a much better all-around fit, and you don't actually lose much DPS at all. The only thing that held Megabeams back from being good sniper weapons was their lack of range, which is no longer the case when fitted to the Poc.
Beams overall need a pg fix.
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SirDanceAlot
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:34:00 -
[77]
Tachs are a bit too hard to fit imo.
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Deschenus Maximus
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:45:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus TBH, with the new Apoc, I think Megabeams are better. They allow you to have a much better all-around fit, and you don't actually lose much DPS at all. The only thing that held Megabeams back from being good sniper weapons was their lack of range, which is no longer the case when fitted to the Poc.
Beams overall need a pg fix.
True. Just saying that the extreme fitting cost of the tachs isn't really justified now that we have the new Apoc, imo.
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Arakidias
Murky Inc. G Thanks Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:52:00 -
[79]
Don't reduce the powergrid, just boost the damage so it's useful to spend that RCU in a lowslot.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:58:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
As soon as Gallente has 800mm Railgun IIs.
My Rokh agrees. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Angelic Eviaran
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.19 23:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Arakidias Don't reduce the powergrid, just boost the damage so it's useful to spend that RCU in a lowslot.
/signed.
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Kagura Nikon
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Posted - 2008.03.19 23:38:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Agil TradeAlt
Originally by: Clone 231C Me too, All I have ever seen is Tuxford saying that tachyons ARE NOT oversized, so I would like to know where the whole oversized thing comes from.
Too me they look like the long-range blaster equivalent, just with the inherent insane beam fitting requirements.
A dev once said that tach have too much fitting for their size a long time ago. Somehow people think this means oversized. The word oversized means nothing, so its a straw man argument. But what I have asked people to do many times, and nobody want to do is to help produce a reasonable realistic chart. The reason I say this is because
1. Most DPS/Alpha charts assume ships have infinite grid, CPU and cap, and therefore only calculate damage from the first second or first volley. I know that the 160km tachy geddon dps is impossible, because it needs 2 RCU II, 1 PDU II, 3 tracking enhancers II and even if geddon had infinate cap, it would not have enough slots to fit the standard 3 damagemod setups that the charts show. So any realistic charts anyone?
2. DPS for ships over time. A simple chart showing dps from realistic setups over a 10-20 min period, as most fleet pvp involving tachy ships are fleet battles. And 10-20mins+ is realistic. How would I get a DPS over tim chart for that?
What tools whould I need to create these charts myself, since I want to see how the ships compare.?
Just lol for your fittign skills then.
Ever heard of PG implants and PG rigs? and Cp booster? Well true not a cheap ship. But don 't say its impossible ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Wardeneo
BLL Wise Guys Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.20 01:31:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Wardeneo on 20/03/2008 01:34:06
Originally by: Golden Helmet Tachyon II powergrid requirements WITH Adv Weapon Upgrades 5 (which I have): 3712.5 425mm Railgun II without AWU 5: 2625 1400mm Arty II without AWU 5: 3575
Now, go max out your fitting skills. Include AWU 5 on that list. Go try to fit 8 Tachyon 2's on an Abaddon. Yeah... can't do it, can you? Not without fitting mods.
Abaddon powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250. Powergrid used for 8 Tachyon 2's w\ AWU 5: 29700 To make 8 Tachyon 2's fit, you need one T2 reactor control. Or, if you don't have grid upgrades 5, two reactor controls.
Lets look at the Megathron now:
Megathron powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 425mm 2's w\ AWU 5: 16537.5
Hey, looky here, a Mega can fill it's available turret slots with it's top-tier long-range weapon without any help! But, what about Minmatar?
Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305
Maelstrom powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250 Powergrid used for a rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 25750
Well whadaya know, Gallente aren't the only ones who can fill their turret slots with top-tier ranged toys! And lets not forget the fact that a single Tachyon 2 uses more powergrid WITH AWU 5 than the others do WITHOUT AWU trained at all. Kinda makes me sad panda.
Shhhhuuuussshhh, if u want sniping use a apoc - and the new apoc with tachs in mho makes the best sniping bs for me - not the best range and not the worst but does the most dmge at that range - and thus neeed a down point - in this case pg, so get over it allready jeez
so stop whining and fit a pg mod/rig
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Originally by: Arakidias Don't reduce the powergrid, just boost the damage so it's useful to spend that RCU in a lowslot.
/signed.
What? u seen the new sniping apoc it does the most dps at about 200km outa all turrets hitting there best at that rannge.....
artillerys have most dps but shortest range - hybrids have longest range but crappy dps, lasers like tacchs are in between so ur bassically wanting atillery dmge at tach range--> u fail for suggesting this.... so i dont agree with this comment wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :) |
Shira Rayborn
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.20 10:53:00 -
[84]
Fix the pg part atleast or give it more damage.
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sdthujfg
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.20 12:39:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Wardeneo
What? u seen the new sniping apoc it does the most dps at about 200km outa all turrets hitting there best at that rannge.....
So? You know what a blaster mega does for dps at 10km range?? I dont see a problem here.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.03.20 12:43:00 -
[86]
It's been said before, but I'll just emphasize it: Tachyons are over-sized weapons. You can make a safe bet that if all of the streams of weapons had an oversize version, they'd all be a pain in the ass to fit.
I say this as a T2 Tachy user. I won't complain if they do do it, but I don't think it's imbalanced.
----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..." |
sdthujfg
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.20 12:45:00 -
[87]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban It's been said before, but I'll just emphasize it: Tachyons are over-sized weapons. You can make a safe bet that if all of the streams of weapons had an oversize version, they'd all be a pain in the ass to fit.
I say this as a T2 Tachy user. I won't complain if they do do it, but I don't think it's imbalanced.
The problem is more that our "normal" sized high tier beam, mega beam is subpar. Wich means we have to fit tachs or be subpar to other snipers.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.03.20 13:36:00 -
[88]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban It's been said before, but I'll just emphasize it: Tachyons are over-sized weapons. You can make a safe bet that if all of the streams of weapons had an oversize version, they'd all be a pain in the ass to fit.
I say this as a T2 Tachy user. I won't complain if they do do it, but I don't think it's imbalanced.
The problem is more that our "normal" sized high tier beam, mega beam is subpar. Wich means we have to fit tachs or be subpar to other snipers.
Sniping isn't that Amarr game though - pummle the enemy to death is. The idea is the vast amounts of armour allow them to close the gap to use their weapons no matter the damage - big lumberling golden giants of death, in otherwords.
Our normal beams are sub-par snipers because they aren't supposed to be snipers.
----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..." |
Borasao
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 13:52:00 -
[89]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban It's been said before, but I'll just emphasize it: Tachyons are over-sized weapons. You can make a safe bet that if all of the streams of weapons had an oversize version, they'd all be a pain in the ass to fit.
I say this as a T2 Tachy user. I won't complain if they do do it, but I don't think it's imbalanced.
The problem is more that our "normal" sized high tier beam, mega beam is subpar. Wich means we have to fit tachs or be subpar to other snipers.
Sniping isn't that Amarr game though - pummle the enemy to death is. The idea is the vast amounts of armour allow them to close the gap to use their weapons no matter the damage - big lumberling golden giants of death, in otherwords.
Our normal beams are sub-par snipers because they aren't supposed to be snipers.
Sounds like a plan! Now if we can just actually do the "closing the gap, bit"... especially with our "lumbering golden giants of death"... and maybe having the cap left to actually fire those lasers... That must be the 2. ????
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Angelic Eviaran
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.20 14:39:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Borasao
Sounds like a plan! Now if we can just actually do the "closing the gap, bit"... especially with our "lumbering golden giants of death"... and maybe having the cap left to actually fire those lasers... That must be the 2. ????
Exactly. Cap.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.20 15:55:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/03/2008 15:55:58 So the comment from Oveur was saying that Tachs are better than 1400mm Arties, and you guys are saying that Tachs need boosting?
So it seems to me that you can either argue that they need to boost 1400mm Arties (equating Tachs and 1400's), or that it's natural that Tachs would be better than 1400 Arties (Tachs are oversized, and thus do not need boosting).
No two ways around it, STFU until minnies get an arty boost.
Especially now that you've got the freaking Apoc. Gone from worst to best in the game... not a bad step!
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Angelic Eviaran
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:05:00 -
[92]
But where is the amarr love? Mr pilgrim hasnt seen the love and neither have laser fittings.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:13:00 -
[93]
Tach II's do a hell of alot mroe damage than 425's. I think that's justification enough, dewd. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Angelic Eviaran
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:16:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Tach II's do a hell of alot mroe damage than 425's. I think that's justification enough, dewd.
but tachs also have less range. Ontop of that they got huge cap use. We just want the pg to be a bit more reasonable. I ask you again, where is the love?
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:43:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Tach II's do a hell of alot mroe damage than 425's. I think that's justification enough, dewd.
but tachs also have less range. Ontop of that they got huge cap use. We just want the pg to be a bit more reasonable. I ask you again, where is the love?
You can't have your boost until artillery gets boosted. Even Oveur says that Arties are busted way worse than Tachs. =)
So get to campaigning for an arty boost plz.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Angelic Eviaran
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:49:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You can't have your boost until artillery gets boosted. Even Oveur says that Arties are busted way worse than Tachs. =)
So get to campaigning for an arty boost plz.
-Liang
And you cant have your tempest boost before ccp fixes our ships and lasers.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.20 16:53:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran And you cant have your tempest boost before ccp fixes our ships and lasers.
I actually campaigned long and hard to get the Apoc and Zealot boosted. Check the record.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
J'Mkarr Soban
Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.03.20 18:10:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran And you cant have your tempest boost before ccp fixes our ships and lasers.
I actually campaigned long and hard to get the Apoc and Zealot boosted. Check the record.
-Liang
I can verify this, as I was behind Liang most of the way
o/
But still, Tachys are by far the least of problems that Amarr still have. Don't start saying 'fix tachys' and then change your argument to 'fix pilgrim'. Two issues, two threads. This isn't an issue, Pilgrim may be more so.
----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..." |
Xequecal
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 19:25:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Tach II's do a hell of alot mroe damage than 425's. I think that's justification enough, dewd.
but tachs also have less range. Ontop of that they got huge cap use. We just want the pg to be a bit more reasonable. I ask you again, where is the love?
You can't have your boost until artillery gets boosted. Even Oveur says that Arties are busted way worse than Tachs. =)
So get to campaigning for an arty boost plz.
-Liang
Are you kidding me? The Maelstrom is hands down the best sniper in the game right now, nothing even comes close to it.
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Risar Surtr
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Posted - 2008.03.22 09:24:00 -
[100]
Okay, reality check: Amarr has been broken for years. Not just tachs, but almost every T1 ship and most T2 ships.
Lasers are crap weapons, yes they have the 'ammo bonus', but for Amarr ammo is cap. This is a problem considering Amarr ships dont have any sort of 'special' capacitor but their weapons require insane amounts of power.
Take it a step further and realize that almost every Amarr ship has a wasted 'hack' bonus: Reduction in cap usage for energy weapons. Since cap = ammo for Amarr I think we should nerf every other races ships in the same fashion: remove one bonus, and replace it with an ammo usage reduction bonus.
This doesnt touch the fitting issues, the lack of damage variation, the uselessness that is EM, the lack of EW etc etc
Lots of folks complain about Amarr because there actually is a problem. The devs have admitted the problem, but none of them seem to give a damn enough to drive a real fix. They nerf things, but rarely 'fix' them.
Just for the record I cross trained Gallente and Minnie long ago specifically because Amarr is broke. They should either fix Amarr or remove them as a main race. Enough with the goofy baby steps. Pagan Heavy Arms |
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2008.03.22 09:40:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/03/2008 09:44:49
Originally by: Risar Surtr Okay, reality check: Amarr has been broken for years. Not just tachs, but almost every T1 ship and most T2 ships.
Amarr ships that are just fine: Punisher* Executioner Arbitrator Harbinger Armageddon* Revelation* Archon* Aeon* (Yes, I've flown against several, so I feel justified in including it) Avatar* (Yes, I've flown against several, so I feel justified in including it) Apoc* Abaddon* Sentinel* Anathema Purifier (At least, no worse than any other SB) Malediction Crusader Heretic Guardian* Sacrilege* Zealot Curse* Absolution Damnation Paladin*
Those marked with stars are great contenders with "best-in-class". 24 total "fine" ships that are unarguably without need of boosting, and of those, 13 are (at least) arguably best in class.
Additionally, Oveur is quoted directly by people begging for an Amarr boost as saying that 1400mm Artillery is worse off than Tachyons.
Quote: Lasers are crap weapons, yes they have the 'ammo bonus', but for Amarr ammo is cap. This is a problem considering Amarr ships dont have any sort of 'special' capacitor but their weapons require insane amounts of power.
Take it a step further and realize that almost every Amarr ship has a wasted 'hack' bonus: Reduction in cap usage for energy weapons. Since cap = ammo for Amarr I think we should nerf every other races ships in the same fashion: remove one bonus, and replace it with an ammo usage reduction bonus.
This doesnt touch the fitting issues, the lack of damage variation, the uselessness that is EM, the lack of EW etc etc
Lots of folks complain about Amarr because there actually is a problem. The devs have admitted the problem, but none of them seem to give a damn enough to drive a real fix. They nerf things, but rarely 'fix' them.
Just for the record I cross trained Gallente and Minnie long ago specifically because Amarr is broke. They should either fix Amarr or remove them as a main race. Enough with the goofy baby steps.
Try reading patch notes before starting up the whine engine.
-Liang
Ed: Avoiding introducing secondary issues into thread -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.22 10:12:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Goumindong on 22/03/2008 10:14:56 That list be lies.[And/or Statistics]
Oveur is wrong about tachs
Just because the apoc is overpowered doesn't mean tachs shouldn't be fixed [or other options like making a special tach ship]. It means you should nerf the Apoc.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.22 10:15:00 -
[103]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban It's been said before, but I'll just emphasize it: Tachyons are over-sized weapons. You can make a safe bet that if all of the streams of weapons had an oversize version, they'd all be a pain in the ass to fit.
I say this as a T2 Tachy user. I won't complain if they do do it, but I don't think it's imbalanced.
The problem is more that our "normal" sized high tier beam, mega beam is subpar. Wich means we have to fit tachs or be subpar to other snipers.
Sniping isn't that Amarr game though - pummle the enemy to death is. The idea is the vast amounts of armour allow them to close the gap to use their weapons no matter the damage - big lumberling golden giants of death, in otherwords.
Our normal beams are sub-par snipers because they aren't supposed to be snipers.
This is incorrect, you have the description of short range gallente ships and not Amarr ships.
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Lea Re
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.03.22 12:54:00 -
[104]
oh ffs
it's always gonna be like: 'amarr need a boost!' and then 'caldari need a boost!' and then minnie, gallente
do you want every race, ship and guns have the same stats ? that would be ridiculous. for some reason I see a lot of successful amarr pilots flying around (yes, the pvp ones). I used to fly amarr myself with another char and now I fly caldari. Guess what, amarr ships are fantastic compared to caldari, most of them anyway.
Want to see how to fly Amarr? Watch Cown vids and then tell me amarr are underpowered or need a boost.
I can only hope that this game won't become 'we all fly the same ships with same mods' thing. And it seems like a lot of people want it to happen.
there's plenty of weapons that are underpowered compared to 'same class' of other faction weapons, same goes for tank and ew. but guess what, that's why the game is so enjoyable |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.22 12:58:00 -
[105]
No, the issue is getting the right boosts in the right ways.
Also, cown proves nothing
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Lea Re
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.03.22 13:01:00 -
[106]
Cown was just an example...
And if the issue is getting the boosts right... If you get one right, there's always gonna be another one that somebody will say isn't right. simple.
btw. boost missile boats! that's what we're doing here, yeah ? =] |
Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.03.22 13:42:00 -
[107]
Its a bad example, its like saying "The vagabond is fine, ergo minmatar is fine"
Now, minmatar is fine, but minmatar is not fine because the vagabond is fine. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Twin blade
The Triangle Exa Nation
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Posted - 2008.03.22 14:19:00 -
[108]
I will support this boost when i get 1600mm Arty cannons and rails get 550mm rails. Death is great rember where all dying to get there. |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:11:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Goumindong That list be lies.[And/or Statistics]
No, it's absolutely correct. Those ships are just fine, and are inarguably not in need of a boost.
Quote: Oveur is wrong about tachs
Oh, sure, just because it doesn't support your point of view, he must be wrong.
Quote: Just because the apoc is overpowered doesn't mean tachs shouldn't be fixed [or other options like making a special tach ship]. It means you should nerf the Apoc.
You mean a special ship like... the Apoc, Paladin, and Nightmare? Just checking.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Risar Surtr
Pagan Heavy Arms
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Posted - 2008.03.22 20:54:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/03/2008 09:44:49 Amarr ships that are just fine: Punisher* Arbitrator Harbinger Armageddon* Apoc* Abaddon* Sentinel* Anathema Malediction Crusader Heretic Guardian* Sacrilege* Zealot Curse* Absolution Damnation
Those marked with stars are great contenders with "best-in-class". 24 total "fine" ships that are unarguably without need of boosting, and of those, 13 are (at least) arguably best in class.
Additionally, Oveur is quoted directly by people begging for an Amarr boost as saying that 1400mm Artillery is worse off than Tachyons.
You'll note that I didnt say a damn thing about 1400's. Secondarily to that CCP has more than one dev, and more than one QA person, and should be more than capable of testing more than one fix at a time.
Now I deleted ships that either: A) Are capitals, or T2 BS's because by the time you can fly them regardless of class your skills should be able to compensate on some level for any shortcomings. That doesnt FIX them, it makes them less of a focus given that maybe 10% of the folks in game can fly them. B) In a near useless class: SB
Now going down this list, the abaddon and apoc have huge cap issues, and are only useful in fleets or specialized roles. The geddon is a classic ship, but its not as good as the domi at PVP, and its average for a BS at PVE (at best).
The Curse is an okay ship, but runs into the problem of having its solo-ability semi-nerfed by the NOS nerf (ie it now has a marginal tank). It went from being one of the only solo capable Amarr ships to being marginal.
The Crusader is useless: 1 mid slot. The malediction couldnt destroy a drone, and has to be inside of NOS & web range to do that. (ie rockets on an inty, REALLY ?)
I've never flown a sentinel or heretic so I'll refrain from commenting.
The guardian is only a passable logistics ship, its not 'good' or best in class by any means. It is only really good when working with power hungry ships, which again feeds into the ammo = cap, the problem I'm talking about.
The arbitrator is a drone ship, Amarr are not largely used as drone ships and as such it sticks out like crazy requiring a complete one-off for newer players in terms of skills. If there were other drone ships in hte Amarr arsenal besides the arbitrator class (curse & pilgrim included) then it might be more useful. As it stands its a T1 cruiser more suited to a gallente skilled pilot with no growth path for rookies.
The Sacrilege, Zealot, Damnation and Absolution are solid ships. 2 of which are non-laser platforms, and lasers are what I am pointing out are broken. In case you missed it.
Almost every Amarr ship suffers from a conflict of problems: a.) Full dependency on cap (most other races have some marginal ability to 'escape' that dependency in terms of drones, projectile weapons or missles.) b.) Dependency on close range combat while flying slow ships. (ie by the time you get in range you've already taken a beating) because beams are useless or impossible to fit.
This can be fixed by two simple changes: 1. Move the 'energy' bonus from the gun dependency to the ships. ie make the 10% bonus to energy turret usage a 5% recharge rate bonus, or 5% capacity bonus. 2. lower the INSANE power/fitting issues on lasers, specifically beams. Its a joke that guns alone drain your cap in crazy fast times (ie sub 3 minutes) when doing average damage at best in most cases. (and you forget that being able to only do thermal/EM damage drastically effects the actual DPS inflicted) This is why Amarr mostly suck at PVE and solo/gang PVP.
Sure they are great for fleet play, but who's going to go and spend months re-training for Amarr to fly in a fleet when you could spend that time beefing up other skills to boost your current ship arsenal ? I'm not advocating every ship turns into a pwnmobile. I'm advocating fixing core issues to make them more well rounded, and usable in other aspects. Pagan Heavy Arms |
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.22 21:46:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Risar Surtr
You'll note that I didnt say a damn thing about 1400's. Secondarily to that CCP has more than one dev, and more than one QA person, and should be more than capable of testing more than one fix at a time.
I'm just saying that you don't need Tachs boosted before Arties get boosted. This would make arties even more behind Tachs, and would then make the game even more unbalanced.
Quote: Now I deleted ships that either: A) Are capitals, or T2 BS's because by the time you can fly them regardless of class your skills should be able to compensate on some level for any shortcomings. That doesnt FIX them, it makes them less of a focus given that maybe 10% of the folks in game can fly them.
Of course, you could just simply be ignoring that Amarr capitals are the best capitals in game.
Quote: B) In a near useless class: SB
Which of course ignores the fact that the ship is fine compared to its peers. Your logic also means that you can't hold the Wolf, Jaguar, and Thrasher against Minmatar because the ship classes are useless - yet everyone does.
Quote: Abadon/Apoc have cap issues
Um, the new apoc has cap issues, my ass. The Abaddon's only weakness is capacitor. Yay for overpowered perfect BS's?
Quote: Geddon < Domi
But Geddon > Tempest, so it's all good.
Quote: Curse went from OP to merely "great"
Um, ok. My Arazu feels really sorry for you.
Quote: Some Amarr inties have to be in web range
Heard of the Taranis lately?
Quote: The guardian is only a passable logistics ship, its not 'good' or best in class by any means.
Uhhhhhhh, right.
Quote: The arbitrator is a drone ship, and I don't like it one bit!
Um, ok. The Celestis doesn't have a growth path towards any of the Gallente battleships... and just be glad your ewar cruiser is worth a damn ::cough-bellicose-cough::
Quote: 1. Move the 'energy' bonus from the gun dependency to the ships. ie make the 10% bonus to energy turret usage a 5% recharge rate bonus, or 5% capacity bonus.
The cap amount bonus is one of the things that makes the Sac border on overpowered.
Quote: Sure they are great for fleet play, but who's going to go and spend months re-training for Amarr to fly in a fleet when you could spend that time beefing up other skills to boost your current ship arsenal ?
People looking for capital ships (because Amarr are the best caps), and people who want to actually do something useful. Apoc >>> Tempest.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Nomakai Delateriel
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.03.22 21:52:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Risar Surtr
Now going down this list, the abaddon and apoc have huge cap issues, and are only useful in fleets or specialized roles. The geddon is a classic ship, but its not as good as the domi at PVP, and its average for a BS at PVE (at best).
The Curse is an okay ship, but runs into the problem of having its solo-ability semi-nerfed by the NOS nerf (ie it now has a marginal tank). It went from being one of the only solo capable Amarr ships to being marginal.
The Crusader is useless: 1 mid slot. The malediction couldnt destroy a drone, and has to be inside of NOS & web range to do that. (ie rockets on an inty, REALLY ?)
I've never flown a sentinel or heretic so I'll refrain from commenting.
The guardian is only a passable logistics ship, its not 'good' or best in class by any means. It is only really good when working with power hungry ships, which again feeds into the ammo = cap, the problem I'm talking about.
The arbitrator is a drone ship, Amarr are not largely used as drone ships and as such it sticks out like crazy requiring a complete one-off for newer players in terms of skills. If there were other drone ships in hte Amarr arsenal besides the arbitrator class (curse & pilgrim included) then it might be more useful. As it stands its a T1 cruiser more suited to a gallente skilled pilot with no growth path for rookies.
1. The abaddon does have huge cap issues. But in PvP few things melt enemies like the Abaddon. Megapulse Abaddon is pure victory. In fact the whole ship is designed around Melting things and a buffer tank. 2. The apoc just HAPPENS to be specialized in one of the few battleship roles that matter in 0.0, sniping. At sniper ranges it equals any other sniper there is, even going toe to toe with the Megathron AFTER resists have been factored in. 3. No comments about the geddon. It's fine. Not as good as the Domi up really close, but once fights start to involve 20vs20 spread out across 50km, then the Geddon comes into its own. 4. Crusader = 2 mid slots. And it's one of the best anti-frigate ceptors around. The malediction is an excellent tackler. 5. 1 guardian is ok. 2 guardians are hideously kick ass. Set up an Energy transfer bridge between the two and power your large remote reppers without the slightest problem. With the exception of fleet battles then every fight I've been in that has featured multiple Guardians have had the guardians on the winning side (even if heavily outnumbered). It's a force multiplier without equal and in PvP none of the other logistics ships can match the guardian. Especially if it supports plated battleships configured for being remote repped (2xEANM+DCII+plates instead of the 1xEANM+DCII+plates). 6. The arbitrator needs T2 medium drones to get the most out of it. Guess what, so does the Harbinger and all of the Amarr battleships. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
|
Posted - 2008.03.22 21:59:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel ...
Thanks for saying things quite alot better than I did.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Xequecal
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.03.22 22:06:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Xequecal on 22/03/2008 22:06:03 Lasers only result in cap issues on frig and cruiser-sized ships, where for most the main objective is to go as fast as possible for as long as possible, meaning they run the MWD a lot. It's generally not a huge issue on battleships.
Battleships, with the possible exception of blaster gank boats, don't run the MWD a lot. It's only used to escape bad situations. And since active tanks suck in general, the lasers are the only thing that cost cap.
The main issue with Amarr battleships is that all Eve combat takes place at web range, disruptor range, and sniper range. That means pulse lasers with 50km range are wasting 26km of their range, you're much better off with a blaster ship that does more DPS. This is also why Minmatar cruisers are really good and Minmatar battleships suck. Autocannons don't have the range OR damage output to compete at the BS level. However, at the cruiser level, Minmatar ships are godly because the #1 measure of how good a cruiser is is how fast it goes, and Minmatar have the fastest ships AND they get a capless weapon system so all the cap is available for the MWD.
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Risar Surtr
Pagan Heavy Arms
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Posted - 2008.03.22 23:00:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Xequecal Edited by: Xequecal on 22/03/2008 22:06:03 Lasers only result in cap issues on frig and cruiser-sized ships, where for most the main objective is to go as fast as possible for as long as possible, meaning they run the MWD a lot. It's generally not a huge issue on battleships.
Battleships, with the possible exception of blaster gank boats, don't run the MWD a lot. It's only used to escape bad situations. And since active tanks suck in general, the lasers are the only thing that cost cap.
The main issue with Amarr battleships is that all Eve combat takes place at web range, disruptor range, and sniper range. ... Minmatar have the fastest ships AND they get a capless weapon system so all the cap is available for the MWD.
Okay, fit me a sniping Amarr BS that doesnt blow through its cap in under 2 minutes. Cant do it unless its a fleet fit, which I have ALREADY pointed out. Well you could give it horrible DPS and maybe last 4-5 minutes. Yay for being useless.
Yes the abaddon is a decent bait ship, or mid-term solo combat ship. Its biggest advantage is its power grid, which roughly translates into HP buffer + resists. Fit it full of tachs and after the first 2 minutes you better hope your buddies are good, because you can no longer fire.
I already pointed out the geddon is a good ship, just not the best in class. and next ....
Pagan Heavy Arms |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.22 23:04:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Risar Surtr
Okay, fit me a sniping Amarr BS that doesnt blow through its cap in under 2 minutes. Cant do it unless its a fleet fit, which I have ALREADY pointed out. Well you could give it horrible DPS and maybe last 4-5 minutes. Yay for being useless.
Generic Sniper Apoc Fit.
Quote: Yes the abaddon is a decent bait ship, or mid-term solo combat ship. Its biggest advantage is its power grid, which roughly translates into HP buffer + resists. Fit it full of tachs and after the first 2 minutes you better hope your buddies are good, because you can no longer fire.
You have heard of a cap booster right?
Quote: I already pointed out the geddon is a good ship, just not the best in class. and next ....
5 geddons vs 5 domis, guess who wins.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Risar Surtr
Pagan Heavy Arms
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Posted - 2008.03.22 23:33:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
1. The abaddon does have huge cap issues. But in PvP few things melt enemies like the Abaddon. Megapulse Abaddon is pure victory.
Provided you can get in range, and keep them there, and they dont cap-kill you. Yes.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
In fact the whole ship is designed around Melting things and a buffer tank.
Agreed, and it does it very well. Its not perfect, or overpowered. Its *fine*.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
2. The apoc just HAPPENS to be specialized in one of the few battleship roles that matter in 0.0, sniping. At sniper ranges it equals any other sniper there is, even going toe to toe with the Megathron AFTER resists have been factored in.
A 'sniping' BS had better be able to shoot for a few minutes since its damage is greatly reduced. The best lasers in the game for range are beam. Beam's eat cap like its nothing. This presents an issue because on average the cap of the apoc wont last long enough to kill someone in a lengthy battle, and fitting anything long range means warp out before kill. Its goes make a good fleet ship though, which I've already stated is what Amarr is good at (damn near close to ALL amarr is good at).
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
4. Crusader = 2 mid slots. And it's one of the best anti-frigate ceptors around. The malediction is an excellent tackler.
My bad I got the crusader and the retribution mixed up. Malediction is still only good at suicide tackling, which every inty is at least reasonable at. Rockets make inty's useless since they get webbed and popped in a heartbeat.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
5. 1 guardian is ok. 2 guardians are hideously kick ass. ... none of the other logistics ships can match the guardian. Especially if it supports plated battleships configured for being remote repped ...
I already said its good when dealing with power sucking ships. Every logistics ship in the game is good at a specific role, the Guardian like most amarr ships is great in fleets, moderate in gangs and almost useless otherwise.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
6. The arbitrator needs T2 medium drones to get the most out of it. Guess what, so does the Harbinger and all of the Amarr battleships.
Yes, because otherwise the effective DPS is booty. Even after the pulse 'fix' a while back the Amarr ships turrets do less DPS on average than *any other race's*. There is a graph the dev's put out before the patch that shows this. On top of doing ****ty effective DPS (hello EM, thanks for being useless) they have huge fitting issues and huge power consumption issues. Just like I've been saying.
I find it amusing that everyone who has a problem with fixing amarr (and its not a boost if something is broke) points at one or two things broken on other races as the reason that amarr isnt broke. I never said arty's aren't busted, but amarr's entire style is busted to the point of only being good at one thing: fleets. Thats pretty freaking broke.
I choose to ignore most of Liangs post and instead summarize thusly:
Originally by: Liang Nuren
"Amarr is broken, but they are not the worst ships in every class. See here are a few that are more broke: blah blah blah"
Good job missing my point.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
"the Sac is a good hac but since its amarr is overpowered despite the fact that its not the best hac in game"
Oooh, we have the third best HAC in the game and it doesnt even use lasers which is the entire point I'm trying to make ? yipee.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
"and if by chance the apoc was fighting a tempest at more than 50km it might win"
That being if the tempest doesnt warp away, and they are fighting at a great enough distance that the huge DPS advantage the tempest has is negated. This somehow makes the apoc a good ship because as a boosted sniper it *MIGHT* be as almost as good the mega & rohk ? We have fleet ships. Wait .. didnt I already say that ?
Every race should have balance. Amarr doesnt. Pagan Heavy Arms |
Risar Surtr
Pagan Heavy Arms
|
Posted - 2008.03.22 23:42:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
5 geddons vs 5 domis, guess who wins.
-Liang
If you fit the domi's with energy neuts and get in range, the domi's win as the cap on the baddon is gone in seconds, and the large drones eat them up. The fact that a tier 3 BS is being compared to a tier 1 with any reasonable consideration being given to the tier 1 is laughable, and goes to prove my point. If you fight at range (ie a fleet battle) then the baddon wins, but I've already established that Amarr is good at fleet ship, and in a gang of 5 the domi's wouldnt fight at a range that gimps their biggest advantage, they can cripple the tank and dps of the Amarr BS's in a heartbeat inside of energy neut range and even if they were NOS'ed in return it wouldnt matter since their drones dont stop hitting like a ton of bricks. So once everyone's cap is drained the domi's win.
Which is my point, the Amarr have a huge glaring weakness: double dependency on cap. Every other race has a way to escape this except the Amarr. (with the exception of the khanid ships). I cant take away the tank and weapons on any other race using 1 tool like I can do to Amarr. Period. Thats the core issue, and its been like this for AGES. Take into account the fitting issues, and crappy effective DPS and you'll see my point. Pagan Heavy Arms |
Feng Schui
Ghost Festival
|
Posted - 2008.03.23 00:42:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: Curse went from OP to merely "great"
Um, ok. My Arazu feels really sorry for you.
And you're comparing a force recon to a combat recon... why?
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Xequecal
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.03.23 01:06:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Xequecal on 23/03/2008 01:11:15
Originally by: Risar Surtr
Originally by: Xequecal Edited by: Xequecal on 22/03/2008 22:06:03 Lasers only result in cap issues on frig and cruiser-sized ships, where for most the main objective is to go as fast as possible for as long as possible, meaning they run the MWD a lot. It's generally not a huge issue on battleships.
Battleships, with the possible exception of blaster gank boats, don't run the MWD a lot. It's only used to escape bad situations. And since active tanks suck in general, the lasers are the only thing that cost cap.
The main issue with Amarr battleships is that all Eve combat takes place at web range, disruptor range, and sniper range. ... Minmatar have the fastest ships AND they get a capless weapon system so all the cap is available for the MWD.
Okay, fit me a sniping Amarr BS that doesnt blow through its cap in under 2 minutes. Cant do it unless its a fleet fit, which I have ALREADY pointed out. Well you could give it horrible DPS and maybe last 4-5 minutes. Yay for being useless.
Yes the abaddon is a decent bait ship, or mid-term solo combat ship. Its biggest advantage is its power grid, which roughly translates into HP buffer + resists. Fit it full of tachs and after the first 2 minutes you better hope your buddies are good, because you can no longer fire.
I already pointed out the geddon is a good ship, just not the best in class. and next ....
Use a cap injector. If the fleets are large enough that you could conceivably run out of cap charges before the fight is over, it also means the lag will be so bad that you don't need the injector because you'll have 30+ secs of module lag just getting your guns to activate on each new target.
Or you could just use an Apoc, which has a better capacitor profile than the Megathron/Hyperion/Rokh anyway.
Quote: 5 geddons vs 5 domis, guess who wins.
Domis win easily. That is if all the Armageddons stay and fight, they probably won't. The fact is 400 explosive DPS (60km range) is better than 700 mostly EM DPS (45km range) in such a competition.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 02:11:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
No, it's absolutely correct. Those ships are just fine, and are inarguably not in need of a boost.
If you think the punisher or executioner aren't in need of a boost you are a special little snowflake.
If you think the crusader and malediction are "inarguably not in need of a boost" then you are foolish
If you think the Punisher, Sentinel are "best in class" or that the Geddon and Abaddon are both best in class[which would be impossible since they are in the same class] then you are beyond help.
The punisher and sentinel just plain suck, if you think they are better than say, a hyena, or kitsune, or Keris, or in the case of the punisher, a rifter[or vigil, or incursus]. O.K. i am beyond the "if you think they are better than" because now its just a ******* joke
The crusader is not the best 1v1 damage inty as said. It looks like it might be before you fit it, but its not. It has terrible tracking and low dps. OR it must engage within web range. And it doesn't have a web. It terribly low on fitting too.
The best 1v1 inties are the taranis, and crow. Now, the Sader is better than the claw, but that ain't saying much.
The Punisher suffers the same problems as the crusader. Except its slower, heavier, has much less damage.
The Malediction is as bad as the raptor as a tackling interceptor.
Quote:
Oh, sure, just because it doesn't support your point of view, he must be wrong.
No, he is wrong because he is wrong.
Quote:
You mean a special ship like... the Apoc, Paladin, and Nightmare? Just checking.
Tech 2 battleships and faction ships[which has the damage bonus on the caldari side btw] are not valid specialty ships. As in, ships you can actually use in a niche role.
I could go on, but really i shouldn't have to.
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Aeo IV
Xomic OmniCorporation
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Posted - 2008.03.23 02:47:00 -
[122]
I do think the Tachyon beam II needs to be looked at, or else the Abaddon needs a bigger powergrid.
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Veryez
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.03.23 13:16:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Goumindong
Oveur is wrong about tachs
No Goum, Oveur is right and you are wrong. First look at the damage modifier for t2, Medium Beams - 3.6, Heavy Beams - 3.6, Mega Beams - 3.6. Next divide the Damage modifier by the respective ROF to get the DPS modifier. This modifier drops 50% as you increase from frigate turrets to cruiser turrets and again by 50% as you go up to battleship turrets. This is consistent across every turret in the game. Long ranged or short ranged. The Tachyon is in a class by itself.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 14:05:00 -
[124]
That Tachyons do not follow the previous mechanics does not mean they are better than the rest, which is the assertion.
They aren't. You cant tie the weapon away from the ships. And the ships say that even if you were able to fit a full rack of tachyons and MWD without using fitting mods on an old APOC it wouldn't have been overpowered[and wouldn't have really had much of a role actually]. If you could have done it on an abaddon[with a single fitting mod and an injector] it wouldn't have been overpowered.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.03.23 14:38:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Veryez
No Goum, Oveur is right and you are wrong. First look at the damage modifier for t2, Medium Beams - 3.6, Heavy Beams - 3.6, Mega Beams - 3.6. Next divide the Damage modifier by the respective ROF to get the DPS modifier. This modifier drops 50% as you increase from frigate turrets to cruiser turrets and again by 50% as you go up to battleship turrets. This is consistent across every turret in the game. Long ranged or short ranged. The Tachyon is in a class by itself.
Actually Goum is (partially) right if we factor in the inherent ship bonuses into the equation.
The three guns are Rails, Hybrids and Lasers and for their gun system each race has a built in bonus present on all their ships using said weapon (with the only notable exceptions being the Abaddon and the Myrmidon)
Caldari: +10% optimal Gallente: +5% damage Amarr: -10% cap use Minmatar: -5% RoF
Before the modifiers are applied the DPS ratio of each races weaponsystem (425 rails, 1400 artillery and including both megabeams and Tachyons) is (rounded to 4 decimals):
425mm: 3.3/9.56= 0.3451 1400mm: 7.2/23.63 = 0.3047 Megabeam: 3.6/9 = 0.4 Tachyon: 5.4/12.5 = 0.432
This far artillery seems like an utter loser, while rails trade damage for range (beams having the shortest range.
But. Once we apply the "inherent bonuses" well end up with
Caldari: 0.3451x1 = 0.3451 (optimal altering) Gallente: 0.3451x1.25 = 0.4314 Minmatar: 0.3047/0.75 = 0.4063 Megabeams: 0.4x1 = 0.4 (cap altered to slightly more than a railgun) Tachyon: 0.432x1 = 0.432 (cap altered from "insane" to "still a lot more than railguns").
As you might have noticed a tachyon beam is virtually identical in damage to a gallentean mounted railgun, except that it uses more grid, cpu, cap and has lower range. In exchange it gets slightly increased tracking. It gets more advanced than that of course since a whole other slew factors play in (such as not everyone having their racial battleship trained to 5, number of turrets, grid, cpu etc etc etc), but that's the center of the sniper issue and why the Megathron and Tempest used to be the kings of sniping. The Apoc used to be known to be a really crappy ship. But in reality it was a decent ship which seemed crappy because it was stuck with crappy guns (+5% cap isn't that bad when compared to +7.5% tracking and things like that). The Armageddon in comparison was an OMGWTF ship stuck with crappy guns, as 5% RoF is possibly the best ship bonus in EVE. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Veryez
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.03.23 15:02:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Goumindong That Tachyons do not follow the previous mechanics does not mean they are better than the rest, which is the assertion.
They aren't. You cant tie the weapon away from the ships. And the ships say that even if you were able to fit a full rack of tachyons and MWD without using fitting mods on an old APOC it wouldn't have been overpowered[and wouldn't have really had much of a role actually]. If you could have done it on an abaddon[with a single fitting mod and an injector] it wouldn't have been overpowered.
Perhaps you didn't understand me. Tachyons are the only Turrets in the game that don't follow the pattern I described. It isn't rocket science. All turrets follow the pattern I described. As you increase the size of the gun from frigate sized to cruiser sized to battleship sized, the DPS modifier ALWAYS drops by 50%. This is the case for every turret in the game. Thus for beams, the two frigate sized weapons are Dual Light (medium sized) and Medium Beam (large sized), for Cruiser sized they are Quad Light (small size), Focused medium (medium sized) and Heavy beam (large sized), for battleship sized they are Dual Heavy (medium sized), Mega Beam (large sized) and Tachyon (over sized). The DPS modifier (damage Mod/ROF) drops 50% for the following chains: Dual Light - Focused Medium - Dual Heavy and Medium - Heavy - Mega. Those are the comparable sized guns. This is what Oveur said and he is correct.
Putting them on a ship isn't necessary to see the pattern, A cruiser that boosts damage by 25% and a Battleship that boosts damage by 25% have not changed to relationship in the DPS modifier between cruiser sized and battleship sized weapons.
As far as being better is concerned, Tachyons do 8% more DPS than Mega Beams and have a 50% higher alpha. Mega beams do 30% more DPS than 1400's and 15% more DPS than 425's. So Tach's do 25.2% more DPS than 425's and 40.9% more DPS than 1400's, while having a 63.6% greater alpha than 425's and a 34.2% smaller alpha than 1400's. Obviously those numbers don't take into account ship bonuses or pilot bonuses, but if you assume the pilots have equal skill and ship bonuses are equivalent, the numbers stand. I'll leave it to amarr pilots as to whether that makes them better or not.
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Seamus O'Malley
Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.23 17:22:00 -
[127]
Gimme 500mm rails and we'll tweak ur tachs
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 17:30:00 -
[128]
You are missing the point, it doesn't matter if it doesn't follow the same progression, it matters if its balanced.
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Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.23 17:44:00 -
[129]
this has been discussed a few times over my years in eve. Comming back June 5th... |
vostok
Suns Of Korhal deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.03.23 18:17:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Veryez
Originally by: Goumindong That Tachyons do not follow the previous mechanics does not mean they are better than the rest, which is the assertion.
They aren't. You cant tie the weapon away from the ships. And the ships say that even if you were able to fit a full rack of tachyons and MWD without using fitting mods on an old APOC it wouldn't have been overpowered[and wouldn't have really had much of a role actually]. If you could have done it on an abaddon[with a single fitting mod and an injector] it wouldn't have been overpowered.
Perhaps you didn't understand me. Tachyons are the only Turrets in the game that don't follow the pattern I described. It isn't rocket science. All turrets follow the pattern I described. As you increase the size of the gun from frigate sized to cruiser sized to battleship sized, the DPS modifier ALWAYS drops by 50%. This is the case for every turret in the game. Thus for beams, the two frigate sized weapons are Dual Light (medium sized) and Medium Beam (large sized), for Cruiser sized they are Quad Light (small size), Focused medium (medium sized) and Heavy beam (large sized), for battleship sized they are Dual Heavy (medium sized), Mega Beam (large sized) and Tachyon (over sized). The DPS modifier (damage Mod/ROF) drops 50% for the following chains: Dual Light - Focused Medium - Dual Heavy and Medium - Heavy - Mega. Those are the comparable sized guns. This is what Oveur said and he is correct.
Putting them on a ship isn't necessary to see the pattern, A cruiser that boosts damage by 25% and a Battleship that boosts damage by 25% have not changed to relationship in the DPS modifier between cruiser sized and battleship sized weapons.
As far as being better is concerned, Tachyons do 8% more DPS than Mega Beams and have a 50% higher alpha. Mega beams do 30% more DPS than 1400's and 15% more DPS than 425's. So Tach's do 25.2% more DPS than 425's and 40.9% more DPS than 1400's, while having a 63.6% greater alpha than 425's and a 34.2% smaller alpha than 1400's. Obviously those numbers don't take into account ship bonuses or pilot bonuses, but if you assume the pilots have equal skill and ship bonuses are equivalent, the numbers stand. I'll leave it to amarr pilots as to whether that makes them better or not.
Very well said imo, though you must understand, many amarr truly are fanatical fools impervious to fact. It just upsets me that people have to constantly attack these unintelligent? people to stop ccp giving into the whining.
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AstroPhobic
STK Scientific Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.23 18:30:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Goumindong You are missing the point, it doesn't matter if it doesn't follow the same progression, it matters if its balanced.
Balanced to what? There's nothing else to compare it to. You have an EXTRA weapon, but whine that it's not balanced.... if there's no baseline to balance something, who the hell are you to decide balance?
You want to make a 1600mm Howitzer, make it have +500 grid, and give it a 1% increase in damage? Great I say, if I have a spare 4000 grid on my maelstrom, I can get an 8% DPS increase. Awesome. Does it matter that the increase from 1200 to 1400 and 1400 to 1600 is proportionate? No.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.23 18:54:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/03/2008 18:55:05
Originally by: Goumindong If you think the punisher or executioner aren't in need of a boost you are a special little snowflake.
The punisher is hands down tied with the rifter for best T1 frigate. You are a special snowflake, and I've never ever ever heard any other Amarr player ***** about the Punisher.
Quote: a bunch of lies and whining
Dude, seriously, every race has their drawbacks. Pretty much all frigates have to be in web range to deal effective damage. You're just whining now, just like you always do.
The whining doesn't help your cause when you mix it with things like "oh noes, the Punisher is teh sux!" Seriously, WTF?
Quote: Tech 2 battleships and faction ships[which has the damage bonus on the caldari side btw] are not valid specialty ships. As in, ships you can actually use in a niche role.
Neatly sidestepping that CCP already made a T1 regular Amarr Tach BS in the name of the Apoc.
You could go on, of course, but you'd just be spitting out more lies and whines if you did. I'm glad you stopped.
-Liang
Ed: Goum, you've had some fairly reasonable ideas in the past... but the crap you just posted makes me think you sold the character. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 19:19:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Idiocy.
There are two frigates in the game, the rifter, and the vigil. There are no others. If you seriously think the Punisher is a good frigate, tied with the rifter then you need serious help.
The crusader is the second worst interceptor in the game, right in front of the abysmal claw, and right behind the raptor and malediction.
The Apoc is overpowered, though yes, it can use tachyons[still with two RCU IIs and no less, an onus no other long range sniper needs to meet]. But the goal is not to make ships overpowered but to make ships balanced. You are claiming that tachyons are better than 1400s, and they aren't. Remove the overpowered bonus on the apoc[you should remember why optimal on a beam ship is a bad idea] and it becomes ****ty again, and you can easily see why. Because the guns are so damn hard to fit.
There is a problem with Tachyons in that they are so hard to fit, and it really goes with all beams in general.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 19:27:00 -
[134]
My god, i cannot believe you people are arguing against balancing the game.
Originally by: vostok
Now in the name of balance, the point in eve is that to improve your fitting you have to sacrifice something else generally. In the case of making the most damaging sniper in the game, you have to sacrifice a lot, which seems quite reasonable eh? also in face of the new changes to res and to the apoc, not to mention the new paladin, which was frankly made to run tachs, you really have nothing left to complain about. In my personal opinion there was nothing to complain about before
1. Every fleet fit fits an mwd. 2. Megabeams are worthless 3. Range is damage: This is also why the new apoc is overpowered 4. You already sacrifice a lot on the ships that would be the most damaging snipers in the game[the Geddon, and Abaddon] before you sacrifice the 3 RCUs for the Geddon and 2 and an injector for the Abaddon.[Namely cap, a whole lot of cap]. 5. You're suggesting the Paladin as a fleet sniper. The Paladin that has a sensor strength of a cruiser and costs as much as the insured loss of a near fleet of ships alone?
Look at tachyons before the Apoc change[which breaks one of the central axioms of balance, and is such a huge problem] and tell me there isn't a problem
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 19:28:00 -
[135]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Goumindong You are missing the point, it doesn't matter if it doesn't follow the same progression, it matters if its balanced.
Balanced to what? There's nothing else to compare it to. You have an EXTRA weapon, but whine that it's not balanced.... if there's no baseline to balance something, who the hell are you to decide balance?
You want to make a 1600mm Howitzer, make it have +500 grid, and give it a 1% increase in damage? Great I say, if I have a spare 4000 grid on my maelstrom, I can get an 8% DPS increase. Awesome. Does it matter that the increase from 1200 to 1400 and 1400 to 1600 is proportionate? No.
Balanced with the other snipers.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.23 19:31:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Goumindong Complete Stupidity
Goum, there are far more than two frigates in the game, and the Punisher is easily tied for first place with the Rifter. The fact that you seem to have lost touch with this, means that you simply do not actually play Eve anymore.
Even if I accepted that the Crusader is not a great interceptor (which I do not), it's still better than the claw (which rightly should be the best inty in the game, coming from the speed race).
So what you're saying, is that the Apoc doesn't matter because you feel that it's overpowered. No, the apoc matters, and it is the tach ship you were asking for. You're simply choosing to ignore it because its not the boost that you wanted.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 19:44:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Goumindong Complete Stupidity
Goum, there are far more than two frigates in the game, and the Punisher is easily tied for first place with the Rifter. The fact that you seem to have lost touch with this, means that you simply do not actually play Eve anymore.
Even if I accepted that the Crusader is not a great interceptor (which I do not), it's still better than the claw (which rightly should be the best inty in the game, coming from the speed race).
So what you're saying, is that the Apoc doesn't matter because you feel that it's overpowered. No, the apoc matters, and it is the tach ship you were asking for. You're simply choosing to ignore it because its not the boost that you wanted.
-Liang
No, i am saying the apoc should be nerfed because its overpowered.
I suppose we could leave the apoc overpowered, yea, thats a good idea.
Also, its not, since it requires EGU 5 to fit[unlike all other snipers]
If you think the punisher is good you must also think the Maller is good. Due to the nature of their slots they perform the same role, except the maller is only maginally slower and has more hit points, dps, and utility.
Clearly the Maller is best in class then?
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.23 19:48:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Goumindong Also, its not, since it requires EGU 5 to fit[unlike all other snipers]
Therefore the Dominix and Typhoon both need boosts because they are skill intensive? Get a grip.
Quote: If you think the punisher is good you must also think the Maller is good.
No, I don't think the Maller is good - it's passable though. I'd be a fan of a Maller boost of some sort. The Omen was more necessary though (and wtf fittings?)
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Ishtar1
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.23 19:50:00 -
[139]
cba reading the rest of the thread
as said before... tachyons are in a class of there own
Small -> Big
Dual 250's - 350 rails - 425 rails - tachyons
cant remember - 1200mm howies - 1400 howies - tachyons
get it?
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 19:58:00 -
[140]
So why is the Punisher best in class and the Maller passable?
Just so you know, the Maller is widely regarded as the worst cruiser in the game. It did less DPS than a Caracal and pre-boost Moa
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.23 20:11:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Goumindong So why is the Punisher best in class and the Maller passable?
Just so you know, the Maller is widely regarded as the worst cruiser in the game. It did less DPS than a Caracal and pre-boost Moa
I believe that honor goes to the Augoror and Bellicose. At least the Maller can tank.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 20:30:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Goumindong So why is the Punisher best in class and the Maller passable?
Just so you know, the Maller is widely regarded as the worst cruiser in the game. It did less DPS than a Caracal and pre-boost Moa
I believe that honor goes to the Augoror and Bellicose. At least the Maller can tank.
-Liang
The Augoror is a specialty cruiser which performs its role well. The Bellicose has a strong tackle with good speed, good tank[Dual LSE], and decent dps[from its drones].
The Maller has hit points. But hit points are worthless if you aren't doing anything special with them.
Its the same with the punisher, terrible DPS, slow as balls, and 2 med slots in a class of ships which tackle. Its benefit, that it can fit a large tank, is made obsolete by the med slot sub-battleship tanking advantage, and the fact that its a frigate.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.23 20:32:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Goumindong So why is the Punisher best in class and the Maller passable?
Just so you know, the Maller is widely regarded as the worst cruiser in the game. It did less DPS than a Caracal and pre-boost Moa
I believe that honor goes to the Augoror and Bellicose. At least the Maller can tank.
-Liang
The Augoror is a specialty cruiser which performs its role well. The Bellicose has a strong tackle with good speed, good tank[Dual LSE], and decent dps[from its drones].
The Maller has hit points. But hit points are worthless if you aren't doing anything special with them.
Its the same with the punisher, terrible DPS, slow as balls, and 2 med slots in a class of ships which tackle. Its benefit, that it can fit a large tank, is made obsolete by the med slot sub-battleship tanking advantage, and the fact that its a frigate.
So essentially what you're saying is that it doesn't fill the role that you'd like it to, and think is "the best role", so it is naturally complete suckitude and in need of a ginormous boost.
Sure.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.23 21:01:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
So essentially what you're saying is that it doesn't fill the role that you'd like it to, and think is "the best role", so it is naturally complete suckitude and in need of a ginormous boost.
Sure.
-Liang
No, i am saying it doesn't fill any role, and i would like it to fill a role, so its in need of a boost.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.23 21:05:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Goumindong No, i am saying it doesn't fill any role, and i would like it to fill a role, so its in need of a boost.
Whether you admit it or not, you're saying that it doesn't fill a role that you recognize as being worthwhile.
Apparently you do not PVP in lowsec.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.24 05:14:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Goumindong No, i am saying it doesn't fill any role, and i would like it to fill a role, so its in need of a boost.
Whether you admit it or not, you're saying that it doesn't fill a role that you recognize as being worthwhile.
Apparently you do not PVP in lowsec.
-Liang
I don't pvp against frigates without a propulsion mod by relying on them to enter web range no.
And a rifter does it just as well again.
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joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.03.24 10:57:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 08:56:32
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me.
They also have shorter range? Blasters do highest damage because the have shortest range you know. Are blasters impossible to fit because the do highest damage? Nope. So your point was what?
Err neutron blasters are hard to fit in the same way tach's are :P
Uber idea solves all !! |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.24 11:10:00 -
[148]
Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 24/03/2008 11:05:27
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 08:56:32
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me.
They also have shorter range? Blasters do highest damage because the have shortest range you know. Are blasters impossible to fit because the do highest damage? Nope. So your point was what?
Err neutron blasters are hard to fit in the same way tach's are :P
.. maybe
No, they are not.
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Crellion
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.03.24 11:22:00 -
[149]
Tchyons do a lot more damage than 425 rails. It used to be the case that ammar ships had no dps bonus and instead had cap bonus exactly because Tachyons do more damage (same as medium beams -frig guns- and heavy beams - cruiser guns- compared to rails).
and even back then the whine was only relevant when comparing Apoc with Mega.
Now with Abbadon and Paladin on the game and with the resist changes that will benefit crystals this whole thread can go straght to the dustbin kthnxbye
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.03.24 11:33:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/03/2008 11:38:03
Originally by: Crellion Tchyons do a lot more damage than 425 rails. It used to be the case that ammar ships had no dps bonus and instead had cap bonus exactly because Tachyons do more damage (same as medium beams -frig guns- and heavy beams - cruiser guns- compared to rails).
and even back then the whine was only relevant when comparing Apoc with Mega.
Now with Abbadon and Paladin on the game and with the resist changes that will benefit crystals this whole thread can go straght to the dustbin kthnxbye
Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus
gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range.
edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them.
A Paladin is a not a fleet ship, Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
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Jones Maloy
Unified Naval Command
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Posted - 2008.03.24 11:53:00 -
[151]
Originally by: ElCoCo It's just weird sometimes... Flying amarr myself (and to the max with my alt) and being -generaly- pleased with the ships, I have a question for those requesting buffs on lasers: Why is the ammo-less aspect of them always forgotten? (now noone says anything about volatility now, you know what I mean!)
we do use ammo. it's called capacitor. Unofficial Official Jita Fubar Thread |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.24 12:55:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Jones Maloy
Originally by: ElCoCo It's just weird sometimes... Flying amarr myself (and to the max with my alt) and being -generaly- pleased with the ships, I have a question for those requesting buffs on lasers: Why is the ammo-less aspect of them always forgotten? (now noone says anything about volatility now, you know what I mean!)
we do use ammo. it's called capacitor.
And people can steal our ammo with a high slot module called neuts. WTB high slot module that steals minmatar ammo -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.03.24 17:46:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Goumindong
Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus
gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range.
edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them.
A Paladin is a not a fleet ship,
Tach Abaddon does 43% more damage than a 425mm Megathron with the same number of dam mods. Forty. Three. Percent. 27 percent more damage if Abaddon has just two dam mods to Mega's three. -- Gradient forum |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.24 17:47:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong
Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus
gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range.
edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them.
A Paladin is a not a fleet ship,
Tach Abaddon does 43% more damage than a 425mm Megathron with the same number of dam mods. Forty. Three. Percent. 27 percent more damage if Abaddon has just two dam mods to Mega's three.
And for how long can an abaddon fire those tachs if I might ask? What does your eft say? Have you even fitted it? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Borasao
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.24 17:49:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What does your eft say?
Heh... nice insult As soon as I read it, all I could think of was "Where is your God now?"
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.03.24 18:24:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong
Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus
gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range.
edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them.
A Paladin is a not a fleet ship,
Tach Abaddon does 43% more damage than a 425mm Megathron with the same number of dam mods. Forty. Three. Percent. 27 percent more damage if Abaddon has just two dam mods to Mega's three.
And for how long can an abaddon fire those tachs if I might ask? What does your eft say? Have you even fitted it?
You may: much longer than a Megathron without a cap booster. Homework for you: try fitting both a Megathron and an Abaddon. Report on the advantages of both before you continue asking for another tach (ship) boost. -- Gradient forum |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
|
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:37:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What does your eft say?
Heh... nice insult As soon as I read it, all I could think of was "Where is your God now?"
Well we gotta have a little fun while discussing stuff. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.24 19:27:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong
Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus
gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range.
edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them.
A Paladin is a not a fleet ship,
Tach Abaddon does 43% more damage than a 425mm Megathron with the same number of dam mods. Forty. Three. Percent. 27 percent more damage if Abaddon has just two dam mods to Mega's three.
What is the optimal range on the megathron?
how many hit points does it have?
How long can it shoot?
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.03.24 20:00:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong
Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus
gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range.
edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them.
A Paladin is a not a fleet ship,
Tach Abaddon does 43% more damage than a 425mm Megathron with the same number of dam mods. Forty. Three. Percent. 27 percent more damage if Abaddon has just two dam mods to Mega's three.
What is the optimal range on the megathron?
how many hit points does it have?
How long can it shoot?
You are a hell of a whiner, aren't you? You and Lyria make me sick.
The apocalypse has been changed into the best sniper in the game. You say it is overpowered and at the same time you say Tachyons should be improved. It is clear that the INTENDED purpose of current dynamics is to make tachyons, which are THE most damaging long range weapons in the game, useable by it and it alone.
If you insist on fitting tachyons on Abaddons or Geddons(God knows why), you HAVE to compromise. Take the damn MWD from the ship. It is not as if you can fit 425 and go happily sniping on a Domi or a Raven or even a Scorpion.
If tachyons work well in the Apocalypse then it is all good. You are exactly in the same place as Caldari regarding sniping. You have one good sniping ship...
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.03.24 20:17:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Tach Abaddon does 43% more damage than a 425mm Megathron with the same number of dam mods. Forty. Three. Percent. 27 percent more damage if Abaddon has just two dam mods to Mega's three.
What is the optimal range on the megathron?
how many hit points does it have?
How long can it shoot?
You want to change the tachs. You supply the numbers. Or shut up. -- Gradient forum |
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.24 20:40:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
If you insist on fitting tachyons on Abaddons or Geddons(God knows why), you HAVE to compromise. Take the damn MWD from the ship. It is not as if you can fit 425 and go happily sniping on a Domi or a Raven or even a Scorpion.
Id like to see you go tell your FC that your sniper BS doesnt have an MWD. He'll spit in ya face methinks. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
|
Posted - 2008.03.24 20:41:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong
Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus
gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range.
edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them.
A Paladin is a not a fleet ship,
Tach Abaddon does 43% more damage than a 425mm Megathron with the same number of dam mods. Forty. Three. Percent. 27 percent more damage if Abaddon has just two dam mods to Mega's three.
You ofcrouse are oblivious of the fact that there is something called range vs damage balance in eve. gg. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.03.24 21:15:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Goumindong
Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus
gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range.
edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them.
Tach Abaddon does 43% more damage than a 425mm Megathron with the same number of dam mods. Forty. Three. Percent. 27 percent more damage if Abaddon has just two dam mods to Mega's three.
You ofcrouse are oblivious of the fact that there is something called range vs damage balance in eve. gg.
Hello? You're the ones claiming that tachyons are underpowered. Show us some proof or shut up, ok? -- Gradient forum |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
|
Posted - 2008.03.24 21:19:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Hello? You're the ones claiming that tachyons are underpowered. Show us some proof or shut up, ok?
My statement still stands true about your statement. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.03.24 21:34:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
If you insist on fitting tachyons on Abaddons or Geddons(God knows why), you HAVE to compromise. Take the damn MWD from the ship. It is not as if you can fit 425 and go happily sniping on a Domi or a Raven or even a Scorpion.
Id like to see you go tell your FC that your sniper BS doesnt have an MWD. He'll spit in ya face methinks.
Only if he is an idiot who knows only how to deal with cookie-cutter strategies.
Anyway, even if it would be true, you can just use an Apocalypse with MWD to perform the role it is MADE to perform, God forbid it. Point is, if you want more damage in the form of the abaddon you have to give up on something.
The Tachyon Apocalypse WITHOUT damage bonuses outdamages and outranges a rail Megathron, fires forever without reload times and can use the MWD for more time if needed.
So use your brain once in your lifetime and use the other Amarr battleships for close combat where they excel.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.03.24 21:37:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Hello? You're the ones claiming that tachyons are underpowered. Show us some proof or shut up, ok?
My statement still stands true about your statement.
So, your claim is that 43% damage advantage is not enough compensation for 16% range disadvantage (or 27% damage for 8% range disadvantage)?
Or perhaps you are claiming that the new Apoc's 16% range advantage combined with its 14% damage advantage is still underpowered?
Remember, you are claiming that tachs need a boost. -- Gradient forum |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
|
Posted - 2008.03.24 21:41:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Hello? You're the ones claiming that tachyons are underpowered. Show us some proof or shut up, ok?
My statement still stands true about your statement.
So, your claim is that 43% damage advantage is not enough compensation for 16% range disadvantage (or 27% damage for 8% range disadvantage)?
Or perhaps you are claiming that the new Apoc's 16% range advantage combined with its 14% damage advantage is still underpowered?
Remember, you are claiming that tachs need a boost.
You can never compare pure dps on long range weapons. They are always balanced with range. Mostly the higher dps weapon has shorter range. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
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