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Golden Helmet
Caldari The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:43:00 -
[1]
Tachyon II powergrid requirements WITH Adv Weapon Upgrades 5 (which I have): 3712.5 425mm Railgun II without AWU 5: 2625 1400mm Arty II without AWU 5: 3575
Now, go max out your fitting skills. Include AWU 5 on that list. Go try to fit 8 Tachyon 2's on an Abaddon. Yeah... can't do it, can you? Not without fitting mods.
Abaddon powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250. Powergrid used for 8 Tachyon 2's w\ AWU 5: 29700 To make 8 Tachyon 2's fit, you need one T2 reactor control. Or, if you don't have grid upgrades 5, two reactor controls.
Lets look at the Megathron now:
Megathron powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 425mm 2's w\ AWU 5: 16537.5
Hey, looky here, a Mega can fill it's available turret slots with it's top-tier long-range weapon without any help! But, what about Minmatar?
Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305
Maelstrom powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250 Powergrid used for a rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 25750
Well whadaya know, Gallente aren't the only ones who can fill their turret slots with top-tier ranged toys! And lets not forget the fact that a single Tachyon 2 uses more powergrid WITH AWU 5 than the others do WITHOUT AWU trained at all. Kinda makes me sad panda.
Now, I'm used to amarr getting the short end of the stick. We have an assault frigate with one med slot (fix plzkthnx?), we have the small-tier Medium Beam \ Pulse Lasers, which are prettymuch unfitable to their intended class without ruining the rest of your ship. But come on, enough with the Amarr hate already, at least let us fit our tier 2 and 3 battleships with the equivalent that Gallente and Minmatar can (I didn't bring the Rokh up in this because, simply, it's trash. It's damage wouldn't break the tank of a sleeping wet paper bag. Go away caldari fanboys.)
And that'll do it for today. Yes I would like some cheese with my whine. At least I'm posting with my main, unlike probably half the replies from cowards this topic will get
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arbalesttom
Caldari Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:47:00 -
[2]
THis must be the best topic ive seen in days, since its amarr whining and not made by jonny! Thanks for making my day
***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
Originally by: Mitnal Locked, one troll after another.
Mitnal, Community Representative
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Golden Helmet
Caldari The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:49:00 -
[3]
Originally by: arbalesttom THis must be the best topic ive seen in days, since its amarr whining and not made by jonny! Thanks for making my day
yeah, I figure theres dozens of other Amarr whines out there, but all I want changed is the Tachyons (and maybe the Retribution? Please?). The rest of amarr is fine, imho.
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Donny HoBo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:57:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Donny HoBo on 02/03/2008 01:57:47
Originally by: Golden Helmet
Originally by: arbalesttom THis must be the best topic ive seen in days, since its amarr whining and not made by jonny! Thanks for making my day
yeah, I figure theres dozens of other Amarr whines out there, but all I want changed is the Tachyons (and maybe the Retribution? Please?). The rest of amarr is fine, imho.
You have picked the most realistic Amarr "problem" for a fix. However, Megabeams out perform 1400mm and will do even more so once the resistance changes go thro. 1400mm are a joke since the changes to tracking computers because they have awful tracking AND awful optimal.
I dont want to derail your thread too much, so lets compare the performance of tachyons to 425mm rails. Both of them perform well yet I agree the fitting on the tachyons is excessive. However, dont forget the much higher CPU requirements of the rails. It may not be a massive problem but it is a factor in balancing fitting. A slight reduction in power grid needs OR a slight improvement to RoF (say 2%, tachyon alpha is already too high :P) would be acceptable.
I am Donny HoBo, Jonny MoJo's more intelligent Minmatar cousin. |
Arkios Odymei
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.02 01:59:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 02/03/2008 02:00:19
Originally by: Golden Helmet yeah, I figure theres dozens of other Amarr whines out there, but all I want changed is the Tachyons (and maybe the Retribution? Please?). The rest of amarr is fine, imho.
Yea, and No. Have you looked at the other stats of the Tach's vs the stats of other guns. They are an echelon higher than that the other race's highest tier guns. The retri could use some mid slot love tho... ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Amberly Coteaz
Amarr Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:09:00 -
[6]
Well now that the Apoc is having its role changed to be the Amarr 'sniper BS', maybe the Abbadon could have a little more base powergrid so you can fit a full rack of Tachs with a tiny bit of PG to spare with AWU V. Idea being you are trading the range and cap use of the Apoc for the damage of the Abbadon.
Of course you would still need a fitting mod for plates, cap boster etc etc.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong |
Testpilot XY
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:34:00 -
[7]
tachyons really need some PG reduction... but it¦s not only PG it¦s the high CPU use too
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Golden Helmet
Caldari The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.03.02 02:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Golden Helmet on 02/03/2008 02:48:07 Tachyons, more or less, are the middle ground in sniper weaponry. They have the highest DPS in comparison with 425mm 2's and 1400mm 2's, but their volley damage suffers. I hate to do this, but I'm going to play EFT warrior here for a moment. All stats are with the following skills:
Rapid firing 5 Surgical strike 4 (yes I suck) Railgun \ beam \ arty spec 4 (I only have beam 4 in the real game, the rest are EFT switches) Battleship lvl4
All setups have three damage mods each. All turrets are loaded with their T2 range ammo.
Abaddon (with it's 5% laser damage per level, which the Apoc doesn't get):
590 DPS 3170 volley damage
Megathron:
322 DPS 1695 volley damage
Maelstrom:
341 DPS 3544 volley damage.
Between these three ships, the Abaddon has a clear advantage in DPS, which would indeed make it a better choice for a drawn out fight. However, when a quick volley is all you get (i.e., solo sniping, hit-and-run sniper fleet, etc), the Maelstrom is the better choice. The megathron, without any range modifications, has the best base optimal range w\ sharpshooter 5, trajectory 4, and Spike L loaded, 130km vs the Abaddon's 119km.
However, now we touch on to the capacitor problem. With the rank 1 cap skill to 5 (I forget it's name), the rank 3 to 4, and Controlled Bursts to 4, the Abaddon's capacitor, with nothing but Tachyons w\ Aurora and three heatsinks, lasts a whopping 1 minute 43 seconds, compared to the Megathron's similarly fitted 6 minutes 29 seconds. The Maelstrom, obviously, will keep on firing long after both these ships cap out.
I'm not here to argue about the capacitor useage though. All I want is for Tachyons to be a little more fitable. The volley damage isn't high enough to justify them using more powergrid w\ AWU 5 than the others do with no AWU at all. The DPS is indeed higher, but when you only get a volley or two, it doesn't matter, especially when your not gonna be shooting for very long anyways. I'll settle for a nerfed RoF to bring it in line with arties. Just make them fitable
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Nasta443
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Golden Helmet
Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375 Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305
Oh yeah baby you know it. 70 full points of powergrid goodness available to uh.... uh....
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Testpilot XY tachyons really need some PG reduction... but it¦s not only PG it¦s the high CPU use too
I remember the dev blog long ago that said
"we don't want other races fitting the overpowered ammar weapons so lets increase powergrid to insane levels!) but then it was like
but we can't incease the powergrid of the ammar ships or they will just fit other races weapons for better tank..
and the would thing just fell apart :P
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2008.03.02 04:47:00 -
[11]
Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.02 08:56:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 08:56:32
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me.
They also have shorter range? Blasters do highest damage because the have shortest range you know. Are blasters impossible to fit because the do highest damage? Nope. So your point was what? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.03.02 08:59:00 -
[13]
tachs to ALOT more dps than other long range weapons and now whit apoc changes they are going to be insanely good :)
tachs all the way ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 09:33:00 -
[14]
You smelly amarr whiners /shakes fist. Tachyons are on a league of their own. If you want to compare "top tier" guns, compare megabeams with 425's and 1400mm's.
Take it from someone that actualy flies all the ships you're comparing...
Amarr have more issues with their lesser ships (like the pilgrim) than their BS's.... I think you're going to like the new apoc a lot btw |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 09:44:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 02/03/2008 09:44:40 I agree with the OP.
Currently Tachyon II's use a large amount of powergrid and cap usage. As a PvP pilot, you can look me up on bob killboard and you can see that I have a lot of experience flying Amarr ships. Its been a year since I last flew the zealot though, but I would like to think I know my stuff when it comes to laserships (Amarr and Sansha)
Abaddon has reasonable DPS for a minute or two. Thats ok if all you plan on doing is a cheap 1-2 volley gank and run. Usually in these "Gank" situations, high alpha matters, and although the Abaddon has a high alpha, there are other ships with even more Alpha, and thus, are more suited to the "hit and run Role".
However, a lot of eve pvp takes longer than a minute or two. Typically, they can last 30mins+ where sustainability of cap matters most. Abaddon is not suited to fleets, but even the apoc has a few issues with a full rack of guns.
Now I do not claim to be the worlds best Amarr expert, and I am sure some non-amarr pilot who knows more about Amarr ships than people who fly them will try to correct me, but I think that Tachyon II's really need to be looked at, since the powergrid requirements are obviously far too high. So to the OP, I agree with you 100%, but I would also like to see a cap reduction to Lasers as well to make them competitive with non-laser ships. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2008.03.02 09:59:00 -
[16]
Tachyon beams provide one of, if not the, highest alpha strike and does so without sacrificing too much dps. Having to use 1-2 fitting mods is a fair trade-off for that kind of power in my opinion. Hell, even if you fit the full rack as you seem to want to the cap drain will kill you before the ship is aligned out, ever tried firing 8 Tachyons on the Abbadon, or 7 on a Armageddon?
Megabeams use about the same number of slots in order to reach the range of the Tachyons making it a matter of swapping DPS for Alpha
Side note: Provided the suggested changes to the Apocalypse go through you will never need to fit Tachyons on any other ship as it will fit a full fleet fit without too much trouble.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 10:08:00 -
[17]
It's just weird sometimes... Flying amarr myself (and to the max with my alt) and being -generaly- pleased with the ships, I have a question for those requesting buffs on lasers: Why is the ammo-less aspect of them always forgotten? (now noone says anything about volatility now, you know what I mean!) |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.02 10:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ElCoCo It's just weird sometimes... Flying amarr myself (and to the max with my alt) and being -generaly- pleased with the ships, I have a question for those requesting buffs on lasers:
I don't think lasers need a boost. Not a general one though. I'd like med sized lasers to be more viable. Fmps need some tweaking imo and well med beams... Won't work without tweaking the ships too though and ccp has apparently decided against that.
Originally by: ElCoCo
Why is the ammo-less aspect of them always forgotten? (now noone says anything about volatility now, you know what I mean!)
In my experience small scale battles aren't long enough to force anyone to reload. My mates in megas/phoons/ravens can happily fire away just like i do in 99% of situations. For me its the range of the bs sized pulse lasers that is fun and a real advantage to other weapon systems.
Fleet battles may take much longer and thus people will lose dps to reloading. On the other hand laser ships will have sustainability problems as another poster mentioned. So while they don't need to reload that still does not imply they can shoot "more" over the course of an engagement imo.
For me crystals with less shots (say about 100 per crystal for t2) might even be more appealing. That way i don't waste millions and millions in ammo everytime i get killed.
With the new apoc i am not convinced tachyons need any changes though. Abaddon and geddon arent good snipers in my opinion and i think apoc is spot on.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 10:51:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 02/03/2008 10:53:42
Originally by: ElCoCo It's just weird sometimes... Flying amarr myself (and to the max with my alt) and being -generaly- pleased with the ships, I have a question for those requesting buffs on lasers: Why is the ammo-less aspect of them always forgotten? (now noone says anything about volatility now, you know what I mean!)
Because t2 Amarr ammo is the most expensive perhaps and decays? Or it is perhaps because Amarr Ammo reload time is Capacitor recharge time?
Seriously, Ammo is so cheap, you can put hours worth of ammo into most ships in this game. I dont know anyone who thinks ammo is a OMG aspect of Amarr. Quite the reverse in fact.
Personally, myself and most amarr pilots I know would like conventional "per shot" ammo for Amarr, due to the large number of Crystal bugs in this game.
Also, you said in anotehr post that Tachyons are "oversized". I do not beleive this to be the case because Megabeams lack range and require four or five tracking enhancers to compete with a 425 II or 1400 user. Megabeams also have poor DPS etc, but I can see that you are trying to troll Amarr with your posts. You killboard stats show you are a Minmatar/Gallente player and not a Amarr one. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.03.02 10:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lord WarATron You killboard stats show you are a Minmatar/Gallente player and not a Amarr one.
that means nothing.... i know alot about flying amarr and fly amarr.. but if u look at my KB stats.. it shows im minni and gallente char.
i have a another char who is skilled only in amarr whit very good skills.
i dont bother logging that account on to post in threads... i rather use my main :D ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
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Wideen
Eon Project Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:00:00 -
[21]
didn't CCP state in their blog that they were changing the PG req for lasers, or did that just apply to pulses?
Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:06:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Golden Helmet
Originally by: arbalesttom THis must be the best topic ive seen in days, since its amarr whining and not made by jonny! Thanks for making my day
yeah, I figure theres dozens of other Amarr whines out there, but all I want changed is the Tachyons (and maybe the Retribution? Please?). The rest of amarr is fine, imho.
It's also an 'amarr whine' that makes a valid point.
All BS have difficulty fitting a rack of top-tier long range, to the point where it's difficult to fit a MWD (unless we're talking Gallente)
But some of the fittings space on some of the ships is a bit silly.
I'd also like to add in, that the Omen also need a bit more powergrid - it can't fit a rack of top tier guns either (be it short range or long range).
Although I would like to add into your comparison the Rokh:
8x 425mm IIs takes 18910/18750.
So it too, needs a fittings mod - although a power diag will probably do the trick, which is all round more useful than an RCU.
So I think it more comes down to the question: Should a Tier 2 or Tier 3 BS be able to fit a 'full rack' of top tier weapons, without needing fittings mods?
In my opinion, yes. Tier 2, maybe not so much - Tempest can fit 6x 1400mms (but only have 70 grid left), Raven can fit 6x Sieges (which are short range, but missiles are funny about fittings for longrange weapons).
Megathron can actually fit 7 turrets, and a launcher (and a plate) without a fittings mod.
Apoc can similarly, only fit 6 tachyons, without fittings mods.
So it's a bit more arguable about the tier 2s, teir 3s there's definitely a good case to be made.
Ships shouldn't have to fit _multiple_ fittings modes to fit _just_ a rack of top tier weapons. Sure, to shoehorn a MWD on, by all means.
TL;DR - I agree with the OP. Either a bit more grid on the amarr ships that can't fit a full rack, or a bit less grid used for tachs. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:16:00 -
[23]
I agree with the op. More important, I think CCP agree, too, bacause they spoke about reducing the PG of beams in general in a future patch. ------------------------------------------
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adriaans
Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:21:00 -
[24]
Edited by: adriaans on 02/03/2008 11:22:43
Originally by: Wideen didn't CCP state in their blog that they were changing the PG req for lasers, or did that just apply to pulses?
that sadly ONLY applied to ONE FRIGATE sized pulse...
to those who are saying tachyons do a lot of damage, they do not compared to cap use and fittings compared to other races... even though not of good comparison, megapulses do more dps...(at ALMOST same ranges....)(100km+ megapulse apoc after changes anyone?)
ohh, heavy pulses and heavy beams (medium weapons) need some slightly lower fittings too! now that i think of it...our cruisers can hardly fit focused medium pulses even...:/ -sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! (Or make Amarr the only race able to deal EM damage from turrets).
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shadowsword I agree with the op. More important, I think CCP agree, too, bacause they spoke about reducing the PG of beams in general in a future patch.
Seeing how reluctant they are to give even the omen some pg fearing it could suddenly become the most overpowered and feared cruiser in the galaxy - don't hold your breath.
On the other hand the apoc gets +1000pg with one of the next patches. Keep that in mind if talking about balancing tachyons. With the new changes i can't really see anyone fitting tachyons on an abaddon apart from maybe missions. Geddon isn't suited for tachyons and will never be. So mainly tachyons are the apocs weapon system. As long as you can make good fits on that ship its sufficient imo.
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Staggerr
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:29:00 -
[26]
Lets make everything the same guise! durrr...
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.02 11:32:00 -
[27]
You're ******* nuts op.
The insane dps advantage is what sets tachs apart, and that is how it should remain. Better dps, for worse fitting and slightly less range.
The cap issue is a ship problem, and is compensated for by the fact that the already better dps gets increased by a large margin on the abba.
So, no, no change needed.
[center] Old blog |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 12:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Also, you said in anotehr post that Tachyons are "oversized". I do not beleive this to be the case because Megabeams lack range and require four or five tracking enhancers to compete with a 425 II or 1400 user. Megabeams also have poor DPS etc, but I can see that you are trying to troll Amarr with your posts. You killboard stats show you are a Minmatar/Gallente player and not a Amarr one.
Well tachyons are oversized, aren't they? They are certainly more damaging than any other type of BS longrage weapon out there. The fact that fleet battles take place at 150+ ranges is another thing and not the gun's problem, no? It's not like the tempest/maelstrom can comfortably reach those ranges without being in their falloff. An 8 Megabeam abaddon has muc higher DPS and alpha than your usual megathron and a 7 tachyon abaddon (using a single PDU2 while having mwd+medium cap injector) is even better. You might agree with me if you flew the other ships.
I only have Amarr BS4 with coco that's why you don't see me flying amarr BS's lots, but my alt is all 5/5/5/5/5.... but I dunno why I have to justify myself to you. Trolling? Please
My point about no ammo was geared more towards having more free space for capboosters, ability to instantly change ammo to suit your range and all that jig. Pricing was certainly not on my mind.
And then you have to take into account that the armageddon for instance can squeeze in pretty nice damage (by taking advantage of it's lower price and using grid rigs) and be a very nice choice . |
Donny HoBo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.02 12:26:00 -
[29]
Originally by: ElCoCo
Originally by: Lord WarATron Also, you said in anotehr post that Tachyons are "oversized". I do not beleive this to be the case because Megabeams lack range and require four or five tracking enhancers to compete with a 425 II or 1400 user. Megabeams also have poor DPS etc, but I can see that you are trying to troll Amarr with your posts. You killboard stats show you are a Minmatar/Gallente player and not a Amarr one.
Well tachyons are oversized, aren't they? They are certainly more damaging than any other type of BS longrage weapon out there. The fact that fleet battles take place at 150+ ranges is another thing and not the gun's problem, no? It's not like the tempest/maelstrom can comfortably reach those ranges without being in their falloff. An 8 Megabeam abaddon has muc higher DPS and alpha than your usual megathron and a 7 tachyon abaddon (using a single PDU2 while having mwd+medium cap injector) is even better. You might agree with me if you flew the other ships.
I only have Amarr BS4 with coco that's why you don't see me flying amarr BS's lots, but my alt is all 5/5/5/5/5.... but I dunno why I have to justify myself to you. Trolling? Please
My point about no ammo was geared more towards having more free space for capboosters, ability to instantly change ammo to suit your range and all that jig. Pricing was certainly not on my mind.
And then you have to take into account that the armageddon for instance can squeeze in pretty nice damage (by taking advantage of it's lower price and using grid rigs) and be a very nice choice .
Just to add to your points.
He falsely states that mega beams need tracking enhancer to compete with 1400mm arties. This is totally false, mega beams out perform the arties without ANY tracking mods let alone with them.
I am Donny HoBo, Jonny MoJo's more intelligent Minmatar cousin. |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.02 12:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Donny HoBo He falsely states that mega beams need tracking enhancer to compete with 1400mm arties. This is totally false, mega beams out perform the arties without ANY tracking mods let alone with them.
Please don't help when you're wrong, ok? 1400mm's have a slight edge on megabeams due to their big falloff, but ofcourse they track badly... which isn't our problem here but range is. |
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