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![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:27:00 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:25:24 I got to thinking about this last night when a corp mate got blown up by a smartbombing mothership in lowsec. The corp mate only lost a shuttle and his clone, no implants so he laughed but the discussion started around the incident. We basically came to the conclusion that it was nearly impossible to kill a mothership in lowsec. It is, an unkillable weapon and when used by pirates, an immense edge on others. Now dont get me wrong, Im not anti-pirate or anti-pvp by far. I just think invincible "I win" buttons are not healthy for eve.
In lowsec you cant bubble the mothership or tackle it because it is immune to ewar. You cant scramble it or hold it or damp or jam it. You cant web it or stop it in any way. In addition, you cant stop the fighters, they warp out of bubbles, cant be warp scrambled, and are immune to damps and ECM. It begs the question of how you kill the bloody thing. Well first of all you will need to get a bubble on it because if you cant hold it then it will just warp away. CCP once proposed that you "bump it with a bunch of dreads" but that is patently rediculous. First of all a dread not do so much damage over a BS when out of siege mode and when they are in siege mode, they cant move at all. And lets face it, a dread is not exactly speedy out of siege mode. But hey, lets assume I get enough BS in the system to bump the guy ... WHOOOOOSH ... "what happened?" ... "oh ... he Cynoed out". The fact that wrecks and corpses will soon be immaterial means you cant even surround it with corps piles to try and keep it from aligning (the way goonfleet killed a mothership) The fact is you cant deploy bubbles in lowsec so you cant stop him from cynoing or warping. Even with interdiction bubbles in 0.0 you have are going to have to be a lot of them because the mothership will have faction or officer smartbombs and be radiating out from the MODEL, not the center of the ship.
So ... how many battleships does it take to alphastrike a mothership again?
This is just stupidly rediculous and it burns me that CCP is making changes that are nerfing people right and left when the things that REALLY need nerfage are being buffed and made even more unkillable. I wonder how long it is before there are camps of 10 motherships on lowsec chokes messing up the game.
Although Eve is the best MMOG out there, I sometimes wonder how development priorities are set. EVERYTHING should be killable. THere should be no "i win" buttons in eve.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Minmatar096773 Minmatar096773](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1278567693/portrait?size=64)
Minmatar096773
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:27:00 -
[2]
No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
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![Kruel Kruel](https://images.evetech.net/characters/184344331/portrait?size=64)
Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:28:00 -
[3]
It is a bit silly that you must resort to bumping a MS in lowsec to even have a chance of killing it...
But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain.
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![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Minmatar096773 No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Gnulpie Gnulpie](https://images.evetech.net/characters/441878392/portrait?size=64)
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:31:00 -
[5]
I wrote it already several times and I write it again:
no supercapital should be allowed in empire space!
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![Imperius Blackheart Imperius Blackheart](https://images.evetech.net/characters/277238838/portrait?size=64)
Imperius Blackheart
Caldari Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:31:00 -
[6]
A few neuts, or at the moment nos... nothing is "unkillable" in lowsec, you just need some organisation and planning. A group of around 12 remote repping BS should be able to kill a momma in low sec.
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![DubanFP DubanFP](https://images.evetech.net/characters/147795262/portrait?size=64)
DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:31:00 -
[7]
Edited by: DubanFP on 24/08/2007 18:31:30
___________
Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes.
DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included? |
![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kruel It is a bit silly that you must resort to bumping a MS in lowsec to even have a chance of killing it...
But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain.
There are alliances that got in on the ground floor of tech 2 (BoB for example) that have tens of trillions of isk. Cost isnt a factor. Even with the cost and even if you could warp scram them, the would still be bloody hard to kill. But at least it would be possible.
And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Rei Sara Rei Sara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/813973693/portrait?size=64)
Rei Sara
Duty.
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rells And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard.
Get some battleships with heavy cap neutralizers on it and it won't be cynoing.
- - - - I always hoped I'd get my sig modded... Then I realized I didn't have one. |
![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Imperius Blackheart
A few neuts, or at the moment nos... nothing is "unkillable" in lowsec, you just need some organisation and planning. A group of around 12 remote repping BS should be able to kill a momma in low sec.
The MS would just warp. And 12 BS wouldnt ***** the tank of a Mothership. Not even close. Unless the MS pilot was a complete moron. Furthermore, "a few neuts" ? How much cap does a MS have again?
Shall we be rational here? Back up your claims. Flippant or trite answers wont solve the dilemma. Lets hear your battleplan for killing a MS in lowsec with "a few neuts" and "12 remote repping BS"
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
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![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rei Sara
Originally by: Rells And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard.
Get some battleships with heavy cap neutralizers on it and it won't be cynoing.
Again, you will need A LOT of neuts to attack it and get it that far. You are assuming he doesnt have injectors or high recharge, doesnt have support and doesnt attack your battleships iwht 15 fighters.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kruel But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain.
You should. The cost of an item is _never_ an excuse for it being powerful. Any player can buy a mothership if they so choose.
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![Rei Sara Rei Sara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/813973693/portrait?size=64)
Rei Sara
Duty.
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:37:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rei Sara on 24/08/2007 18:38:06
Originally by: Rells The MS would just warp. And 12 BS wouldnt ***** the tank of a Mothership. Not even close. Unless the MS pilot was a complete moron. Furthermore, "a few neuts" ? How much cap does a MS have again?
Maybe it would take more than "a few", but keep in mind that somebody did spend -a lot- of money on that thing, so you're going to have to have a decent investment in the force that's taking it down. Maybe it takes more than a dozen battleships, but I'm betting the exact amount it would take isn't unreasonable relative to the value of that mothership.
Edit: Ah, posted immediately after someone refuting the value of the vessel being a basis for strength. Gotta love it.
- - - - I always hoped I'd get my sig modded... Then I realized I didn't have one. |
![Kaar Kaar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/567484116/portrait?size=64)
Kaar
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:47:00 -
[14]
you should be able to kill them with a destroyer gang!
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![Jenny Spitfire Jenny Spitfire](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1346324202/portrait?size=64)
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:52:00 -
[15]
Hi Rells. I am glad you bring this subject up. The horrors of mums in low-secs are indeed scary thoughts.
I think CCP should balance the game in the sense that anything bigger than a battleship must be made a 0.0 object. It should be done that people who are looking for fights should be fighting in 0.0 space and people who do not wish to fight can still play freely in high-secs.
Low-secs should be in between i.e. people will at most engage battleships. It would be an intermediary level for people learning to fight and 0.0 would be for crazy hard core players. Only people in 0.0 have the resources to kill mums to be honest. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
![Derovius Vaden Derovius Vaden](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1062479875/portrait?size=64)
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:55:00 -
[16]
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship) 2. They are expensive to maintain (jump fuel, fighters, safe locations to hide it.) 3. They are very team dependent; if there is no one online with cyno ready to save it, its not going anywhere. 4. They cannot defend themselves against well organized, well armed gangs/blobs.
Now, in terms of sheer cost, having 5 billion ISK in battleships chase around a 25-35 billion ISK mothership, the mothership should win/get out 99.9% of the time. Anyone and their mother (no pun intended) can build battleships, and no one is losting to siege your POS because you're pumping out ravens by the dozen. Motherships on the other hand have a great big "OMGBLWZMEUPPLZ" sticker on their capital ship assembly array.
If there were as many motherships as there are battleships, than their survivability would be a problem. As it stands, I see nothing wrong with what happened. The OP is just mad because he lost, not because its impossible. Impossible would be for the mothership to destroy all of you, cyno out, and station camp you. That would be impossible my friend.
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![Necronomicon Necronomicon](https://images.evetech.net/characters/780769104/portrait?size=64)
Necronomicon
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:59:00 -
[17]
Why not just do what most sensible people do.
Log on
Check map
See blob/deaths
Stay away from area.
Yes, camping LS with Super Caps is hella HELLA lame, but you pays your isk and makes your choice, they just have more isk than you.
Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
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![prathe prathe](https://images.evetech.net/characters/828140853/portrait?size=64)
prathe
Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Kruel It is a bit silly that you must resort to bumping a MS in lowsec to even have a chance of killing it...
But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain.
There are alliances that got in on the ground floor of tech 2 (BoB for example) that have tens of trillions of isk. Cost isnt a factor. Even with the cost and even if you could warp scram them, the would still be bloody hard to kill. But at least it would be possible.
And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard.
yeah were'd i put my "trillions" lol....
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![Spenz Spenz](https://images.evetech.net/characters/942773523/portrait?size=64)
Spenz
Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:00:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Spenz on 24/08/2007 19:01:56
Originally by: Rei Sara Get some battleships with heavy cap neutralizers on it and it won't be cynoing.
If the devs said it was possible for a titan to cyno out a few seconds after a DDD no matter how much cap it took, can you imagine how many battleships with neuts will be needed to keep a mothership from cynoing?
You would need to be able to nuke its cap twice over, and stagger that so that when one group is going through its cycle the other can take over neutralizing. In essence, killing a mothership in low-sec has some pretty unrealistic demands.
Of course said mothership pilots claim there is a way to kill them, but they wont tell. They all talk likes it been done before when it hasnt. Except for corpse bumping, which is being removed, there is really no realistic way of killing a lowsec mothership other than pilot stupidity.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
![Erotic Irony Erotic Irony](https://images.evetech.net/characters/281011440/portrait?size=64)
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rells Lets hear your battleplan for killing a MS in lowsec
You said it yourself: Fixing low sec MS is a combination of blanket EWAR immunity (a very exceptional and arbitrary bonus) coupled with half-done carrier mechanics and perhaps the priority of cloaks.
CCP needs to re-evaulite fighters thanks to their ability to effectively teleport unimpeded and decide if they are drones that share the vulnerabilities of regular drones or are they quasi-drones that need a more comprehensive ruleset. Atleast this would represent a small step in defanging the MS and reducing them to smartbomb antics.
Those claiming the cost to produce one merits the immunity need a reality check--Eve is about trade off and opportunity cost. When we speak of virtually every other ship class and weapon there are a range of options with relatiely unique benefits and drawbacks, you can empirically say a close range mega has more dps than a pulse geddon on top of other claims. Given that no other ship class enjoys such a bonus and as such we have no reliable frame of comparision to talk about immunity should confirm how out of place it is.
Add to that the pilot could make many mistakes and still fall back to one of his many cyno alts and you have a gamebreaking scenario where escape is always possible.
Rells, you and Bein Glorious should team up and write the MS lowsec revision manifesto--it worked for scaling back doomsdays. ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
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![Aceoil Aceoil](https://images.evetech.net/characters/768044194/portrait?size=64)
Aceoil
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:01:00 -
[21]
Has a MS ever been destroyed in lowsec?
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![Divideby0 Divideby0](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1153324498/portrait?size=64)
Divideby0
Gallente Amalgamated Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:04:00 -
[22]
Perhaps things might get balanced once CCP implements the targeting of subsystems.
If anything they should START implementing this on the larger ships then incorporate it into the smaller vessels once they work the kinks out.
Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves lowsec on his own, or the "PvPer" who attacks an unarmed ship? I support the f |
![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship)
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
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![Stakhanov Stakhanov](https://images.evetech.net/characters/448803936/portrait?size=64)
Stakhanov
Katana's Edge
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:08:00 -
[24]
I think motherships have the right vulnerability compared to their cost. Right now , it's too risky to use titans in combat. I don't think motherships need to be nerfed for now.
The problem comes from local , the mothership has more than enough time to warp or jump out when local numbers grow enough to be a threat. Without this intel , you could sneak on the mothership or set a trap with cloaked ships. Changing local would be a more elegant solution and put an end to the ridiculous logging raven risk free ratting/farming.
Void bombs would be nice to ambush motherships , if they neutralized an adequate amount of cap. Blame CCP for pre-nerfing them ![Razz](/images/icon_razz.gif)
Originally by: Cipher7 If you manage to get baited, what's your skill, being a good victim?
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![John Blackthorn John Blackthorn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/265726284/portrait?size=64)
John Blackthorn
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:08:00 -
[25]
Motherships cost about 17.5B isk to make btw.
Mother ship and titans should be able to fire weapons or deploy fighters in empire nor be able to be targeted in my opinion.
It allows for tose ships to travel through empire space but not interact.
Your quite right you can not kill a mothership in low sec. you can't ew it, you can't scramble you can't bubble. They can cyno and warp at will.
I know my alliance droped 50 b.s. and 20 dreads on top of a mothership in low sec that was camping oijnane (right before BWF system of geminate that we live in). The guy had a reapier and a mothership. He kept shield reping his reapier and killing off the b.s. After about the 10th b.s. loss and no way to kill the guy we gave up.. We warped the dreads in and some times sieged and some items did not trying differnt things. We had many b.s. setup with all neutralizers.
I don't care how much a ship cost there should be a way to destroy it and when mothership is in low sec there isn't.
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![Derovius Vaden Derovius Vaden](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1062479875/portrait?size=64)
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship)
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
Its not a matter of power; motherships are not solo-pwnmobiles and they never will be. Its a matter of value. If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die. Else, if we follow what you're suggesting, all the motherships will be blown to hell and back within a week, and no one will buy new ones because they are a waste of money.
Once again, more expensive = harder to die.
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![Buyerr Buyerr](https://images.evetech.net/characters/229289942/portrait?size=64)
Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rei Sara Edited by: Rei Sara on 24/08/2007 18:38:06
Originally by: Rells The MS would just warp. And 12 BS wouldnt ***** the tank of a Mothership. Not even close. Unless the MS pilot was a complete moron. Furthermore, "a few neuts" ? How much cap does a MS have again?
Maybe it would take more than "a few", but keep in mind that somebody did spend -a lot- of money on that thing, so you're going to have to have a decent investment in the force that's taking it down. Maybe it takes more than a dozen battleships, but I'm betting the exact amount it would take isn't unreasonable relative to the value of that mothership.
Edit: Ah, posted immediately after someone refuting the value of the vessel being a basis for strength. Gotta love it.
in that conclusion you think that a titan should win 1 vs. 90 cap ships :S
NO
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![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship) 2. They are expensive to maintain (jump fuel, fighters, safe locations to hide it.) 3. They are very team dependent; if there is no one online with cyno ready to save it, its not going anywhere. 4. They cannot defend themselves against well organized, well armed gangs/blobs.
Now, in terms of sheer cost, having 5 billion ISK in battleships chase around a 25-35 billion ISK mothership, the mothership should win/get out 99.9% of the time. Anyone and their mother (no pun intended) can build battleships, and no one is losting to siege your POS because you're pumping out ravens by the dozen. Motherships on the other hand have a great big "OMGBLWZMEUPPLZ" sticker on their capital ship assembly array.
If there were as many motherships as there are battleships, than their survivability would be a problem. As it stands, I see nothing wrong with what happened. The OP is just mad because he lost, not because its impossible. Impossible would be for the mothership to destroy all of you, cyno out, and station camp you. That would be impossible my friend.
You always have someone that doesnt even read the post or has such low reading skills that they miss the content. No one said for a second, surely not me, that they should be easily killable. No one is debating that they should be difficult to kill. I am debating that they are IMPOSSIBLE to kill. And for the record, I have personally never lost a single ship against a Mothership and the corp pilot in question only lost a shuttle and his pod so you can stow the "sour grapes" argument in the rear cargo hold. Now lets address your points with rational thought, not sillyness (im not in the mood).
1) 25 Bil is not that hard to get. It is a fairly small sum. I would say that anyone with the skill capability to fly the ship should have the ability to make 25 bil far in advance of the actual finishing of the skills. I know traders and miners that make that in 2 months on the market with tech 2 bpos. There are organizations in the game where 25 bil is a drop in the bucket. Further you only need soverignty to build it, not to fly it so that isnt an argument either. THere are half a dozen organization in the game that will build you one for a fee. 2) They arent that expensive because there deployed firepower and escapability is extreme. The fact is that they cant be pinned down and stopped and jump fuel is 10 isk to the mothership pilot. As for a "safe location" all you have to do is deploy a small control tower with a day of fuel and stront and yo uare safe. Most mothership pilots, however, never get out of the hsip and they vanish in space and can just evade capture to remove agression and get logged off. 3) Any mothership pilot will have a cyno alt so that argument is patently stupid. 4) They can defend themselves just fine. You cant ewar them as you would a carrier, they are free to send out fighters in mass and slaughter attackers. They can warp away from dreads in siege mode and they can jsut pop the battleships right and left and warp out when they get below comfort level. Killing a station sitting carrier is POSSIBLE if extremely hard. Killing a mothership in low sec is not possible.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Rei Sara Rei Sara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/813973693/portrait?size=64)
Rei Sara
Duty.
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Spenz If the devs said it was possible for a titan to cyno out a few seconds after a DDD no matter how much cap it took, can you imagine how many battleships with neuts will be needed to keep a mothership from cynoing?
I'm stuck at work at the moment, so I can't run the numbers, but I'd really be interested in seeing exactly how much cap you'd have to keep siphoned off a mothership (assuming a pilot with all relevant skills maxed) to prevent it from jumping.
It's probably an intimidating number, but I bet it's not as insurmountable as one might think. Keep in mind that if you're actually engaging the mothership with an appropriate force you should be doing enough damage that they're burning a fair bit of their own cap keeping their tank up.
- - - - I always hoped I'd get my sig modded... Then I realized I didn't have one. |
![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die.
So if I pay 250m for a Curse and you pay 50m for a Curse I should be able to beat you 84% of the time? How does that work exactly?
Quote:
Else, if we follow what you're suggesting, all the motherships will be blown to hell and back within a week, and no one will buy new ones because they are a waste of money.
I'm not saying that at all. Please show where I say motherships should not be powerful. My only point is that isk cost cannot be a value of strength.
Quote: Once again, more expensive = harder to die.
So a jaguar that costs 16m has 2x as many hp as a jaguar that costs 8m? Does it do 2x as much damage?
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![Jezala Jezala](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1208845874/portrait?size=64)
Jezala
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:29:00 -
[31]
No problem here. Just stick to Tux's advice, bump and NOS...bump and NOS baby. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
...and yes, we do sell and deliver ammo. 425 Express Delivery is available upon request, please see Hans Gates and Marcus Grisbius regarding this option. |
![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:35:00 -
[32]
Tunak: I like your style. Poeple using emotional arguments and you nuking them. ... Anyway.
The motherships would not all be blown up in a week. They might have to travel with a fleet and have force protection like a Nimitz Class carrier in real life. They will have to decide whether to engage or warp away before the enemy gets there, not just simply say "ya, Ill engage a few and if I get low, I will just jump." They would have to think about whether or not they are willing to get warp scrambled or not. They would lose their status as solo pwnmobiles (which is probably the reason for the plethora of obvious alts posting on the thread.) The motherships would still be very powerful, they would just be susceptible to warp scramblers and so should titans.
The reality is that neutralizing enough cap to prevent a cyno jump would take a ton of dedicated neutrlaizing battleships. The base cap on a Wyvern, for example, is 63, 750. With rational engineering skills that will be well over 100,000. Someone just run the numbers for giggles, I would be interested to hear it. Also run the numbers of how many heavy energy neuts (assuming the BS also is running his own cap down) it would take to prevent it from jumping and ask how much time it would take and why the pilot wouldn just jump before it got there. How many would it take to neut it below cyno level on the first try and wh wouldnt the MS just passively tank, kill a few and jump.
People asserting they can be killed are either stupid or lieing. Pick one.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Magazaki Magazaki](https://images.evetech.net/characters/639396809/portrait?size=64)
Magazaki
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:35:00 -
[33]
If I may add, price is an indication of value, but in a completely un-linear fashion- law of diminishing returns.
Or do you need 200 frigates costing 500k each (100million) to down a raven? Or do you need 20 cruisers costing 5mil each (100million) to down a megathron?
No, not by a longshot. cost of 20bil in no way means that you should need to pit 20 billions' worth of "inferior hulls" to kill it.
It should be hard, damn hard to kill (it is in 0.0), needing maybe 3-10 capships and some support fleet. But not impossible, as it is in low-sec, and it certainly should not require 20billions worth of ships to bring down. Just as much as an Armageddon does not require 100millions worth of ships to kill (a frigate wolfpack of 10-20 T1 fitted frigates or a small gang of cruisers would kill it no problem).
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![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:37:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jezala No problem here. Just stick to Tux's advice, bump and NOS...bump and NOS baby. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Before or AFTER the NOS nerf? ![Smile](/images/icon_smile.gif)
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Anaalys Fluuterby Anaalys Fluuterby](https://images.evetech.net/characters/214057291/portrait?size=64)
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:44:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Jezala No problem here. Just stick to Tux's advice, bump and NOS...bump and NOS baby. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Before or AFTER the NOS nerf? ![Smile](/images/icon_smile.gif)
Either way. Its simplicity to make sure your dual-repping tank is lower than theirs until you bring the Neuts online to finish the job. Besides, you only need to bring it lower than 75% (IIRC) cap to keep it from Cyroing out?
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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![Erotic Irony Erotic Irony](https://images.evetech.net/characters/281011440/portrait?size=64)
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:47:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Rei Sara but I bet it's not as insurmountable as one might think.
guys, guys, he thinks we can do it
...
For an Aeon, you are facing an estimated ~100,000 capacitor and with even a few CCCs and officer PDU your recharge can reach or exceed 200/s. It's likely impossible to hurt his cap if he has officer cap rechargers and the rigs on top of the new nos rules, which were in reality just a temporary fix before dictor spheres were allowed to stop warp. Nos isn't the answer at all.
Originally by: Rei Sara Keep in mind that if you're actually engaging the mothership with an appropriate force you should be doing enough damage that they're burning a fair bit of their own cap keeping their tank up.
The mothership pilot isn't interested in a stand up fight, he's interested in preserving his 100b isk toy. The fight you're describing will never happen in lowsec--he'll be cloaked off a gate and simply watch local grow and grow and grow. Sure he can stick around but he'll likely destroy some battleships and then jump out at will. In 0.0 you have little choice and can be punished for cavalierly flying a capital as STK and friends have demonstrated--in low sec you can't.
Barring an incredible log in trap, internal sabotage or other kinds of spying, current game mechanics confirm Rells' point.
___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
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![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:47:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Magazaki If I may add, price is an indication of value, but in a completely un-linear fashion- law of diminishing returns.
You're almost there. Price is simply a indication of value to the purchaser. Nothing more. isk cost and combat power are completely disassociated. There is no diminishing returns. There is no nonlinear fashion. There is simple no relation.
Your example is correct but not for any reason involving isk rather simply that CCP designed it that way.
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![MrJordanIOI MrJordanIOI](https://images.evetech.net/characters/913608347/portrait?size=64)
MrJordanIOI
Minmatar The Lantern Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: John Blackthorn Motherships cost about 17.5B isk to make btw.
Mother ship and titans should be able to fire weapons or deploy fighters in empire nor be able to be targeted in my opinion.
It allows for tose ships to travel through empire space but not interact.
Your quite right you can not kill a mothership in low sec. you can't ew it, you can't scramble you can't bubble. They can cyno and warp at will.
I know my alliance droped 50 b.s. and 20 dreads on top of a mothership in low sec that was camping oijnane (right before BWF system of geminate that we live in). The guy had a reapier and a mothership. He kept shield reping his reapier and killing off the b.s. After about the 10th b.s. loss and no way to kill the guy we gave up.. We warped the dreads in and some times sieged and some items did not trying differnt things. We had many b.s. setup with all neutralizers.
I don't care how much a ship cost there should be a way to destroy it and when mothership is in low sec there isn't.
QFT - sad to read armchair comments like those coming from "Derovius Vaden".
IOI
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=567889&page=1#8..I just checked the subscription numbers, |
![Surfin's PlunderBunny Surfin's PlunderBunny](https://images.evetech.net/characters/220512235/portrait?size=64)
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant
|
Posted - 2007.08.24 20:10:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Rells Tunak: I like your style. Poeple using emotional arguments and you nuking them. ... Anyway.
The motherships would not all be blown up in a week. They might have to travel with a fleet and have force protection like a Nimitz Class carrier in real life. They will have to decide whether to engage or warp away before the enemy gets there, not just simply say "ya, Ill engage a few and if I get low, I will just jump." They would have to think about whether or not they are willing to get warp scrambled or not. They would lose their status as solo pwnmobiles (which is probably the reason for the plethora of obvious alts posting on the thread.) The motherships would still be very powerful, they would just be susceptible to warp scramblers and so should titans.
The reality is that neutralizing enough cap to prevent a cyno jump would take a ton of dedicated neutrlaizing battleships. The base cap on a Wyvern, for example, is 63, 750. With rational engineering skills that will be well over 100,000. Someone just run the numbers for giggles, I would be interested to hear it. Also run the numbers of how many heavy energy neuts (assuming the BS also is running his own cap down) it would take to prevent it from jumping and ask how much time it would take and why the pilot wouldn just jump before it got there. How many would it take to neut it below cyno level on the first try and wh wouldnt the MS just passively tank, kill a few and jump.
People asserting they can be killed are either stupid or lieing. Pick one.
If you are going to compare a Mothership to a Nimitz... the Nimitz is a force on it's own, there's no way to sink it and it has on board weapons that autonomously engage incoming threats... so lets give motherships capital sized defender missiles ![YARRRR!!](/images/icon_pirate.gif)
Also the Nimitz is more of a titan... it boosts the fleet around it and assigns targets ![Idea](/images/icon_idea.gif)
Motherships are fine as is.... get smarter ![ugh](/images/icon_bear.gif)
Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
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![Hayah Theos Hayah Theos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/736990350/portrait?size=64)
Hayah Theos
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:17:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 20:18:20 This thread gives me warm fuzzy feelings! ![Laughing](/images/icon_lol.gif) I find it refreshing that legitimate pilots like Rells are speaking out against obvious game imbalances like this. Now if only they could be honest enough to embrace the fact that the economic resource distribution in the game is fatally flawed too. I mean, just how is it that ANY new force in the game will ever be able to compete with established zero alliances? (And by new, I mean anyone other than the BORG). From reading this thread it is obvious that those here seem to think 25 billion isk is "chump change". How out of touch with reality these veterans are. I am sure it is the BORG's reality, since they have the major resource points of the game in their hip pocket. Eve needs serious game model resource rebalancing or it is doomed to become a shrinking "veteran's only" playpen.
(P.S. BORG = Beta Organization Resource Group)
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![Sokratesz Sokratesz](https://images.evetech.net/characters/617542418/portrait?size=64)
Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:32:00 -
[41]
Disallow titans and moms from activating any offensive mods in empire, problem fixed.
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![Simon Barrow Simon Barrow](https://images.evetech.net/characters/941644824/portrait?size=64)
Simon Barrow
Basgerin Hounds
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:41:00 -
[42]
Your posts are always so incredibly constructive.
I wonder why CCP doesnt listen to your whines? Oh maybe because you seem to enjoy telling them that your opinion of them as game designers is dismal at best.
Your right though, it's unkillable in lowsec and ccp should do something about it.
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![Jenny Spitfire Jenny Spitfire](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1346324202/portrait?size=64)
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:49:00 -
[43]
It is called balancing Simon. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
![Sazkyen Sazkyen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/566024328/portrait?size=64)
Sazkyen
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:54:00 -
[44]
Ofc it's not IRL but we have to look for some form of comparison: in real life a carrier is very powerful due to the strike force based on it. However, without the proper defence, like missile boats, AWACS and support submarines they are virtually dead meat. Ofc, a fishing boat won't be able to kill it (however a US Battelship got pretty much devastated in Lybia, or was it an Israeli harbour?) but even a World War Two era submarine could sink it no problem. They should require some form of protection. Like, dunno, five escort ships (spec ships, new class) to follow her everywhere. When they're down, they should be relatively easy to kill.
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![Simon Barrow Simon Barrow](https://images.evetech.net/characters/941644824/portrait?size=64)
Simon Barrow
Basgerin Hounds
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire It is called balancing Simon.
Sorry? Am I Simon? Well I am "a" Simon.
What is called balancing? Talking about a broken ship by filling the post with trite sarcasm and arrogance? Not much balance there.
List the reasons why motherships are broken, state the facts and post the post in the correct forum.
Doing it here is nothing more than attention grabbing, "look here Im Rells, give me attention."
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![ALPHA12125 ALPHA12125](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1931605021/portrait?size=64)
ALPHA12125
Gallente 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:55:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire It is called balancing Simon.
balance would be if we get the jenny back ![Sad](/images/icon_sad.gif)
btw. limiting motherships to 0.0 is no option as you cant travel to all 0.0 because the jumprange is so crappy.
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![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:00:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Hayah Theos Now if only they could be honest enough to embrace the fact that the economic resource distribution in the game is fatally flawed too. I mean, just how is it that ANY new force in the game will ever be able to compete with established zero alliances? (And by new, I mean anyone other than the BORG). From reading this thread it is obvious that those here seem to think 25 billion isk is "chump change". How out of touch with reality these veterans are. I am sure it is the BORG's reality, since they have the major resource points of the game in their hip pocket. Eve needs serious game model resource rebalancing or it is doomed to become a shrinking "veteran's only" playpen.
Old I am. Out of touch I am not. 100M a day is easy. 1B a week is doable if you're hardcore, with less than 6M skill points. Heck you could do it with much less than that SP wise but it would take more work to get up to that level.
Those numbers are completely engine money. Created out of nothing. Not dependent on other players in any way. Risking nothing more than a shuttle. Courier mission revamp, lp store, and R&D are all newer and very lucrative. The "BORG" didn't have access to them. Granted the R&D cash is player dependent but it's just icing on the cake. Something to do while you raise massive faction to exploit.
Remember kids it doesn't matter what your corp standing is as long as their faction loves you.
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![Christari Zuborov Christari Zuborov](https://images.evetech.net/characters/842346451/portrait?size=64)
Christari Zuborov
Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Originally by: Rells Tunak: I like your style. Poeple using emotional arguments and you nuking them. ... Anyway.
The motherships would not all be blown up in a week. They might have to travel with a fleet and have force protection like a Nimitz Class carrier in real life. They will have to decide whether to engage or warp away before the enemy gets there, not just simply say "ya, Ill engage a few and if I get low, I will just jump." They would have to think about whether or not they are willing to get warp scrambled or not. They would lose their status as solo pwnmobiles (which is probably the reason for the plethora of obvious alts posting on the thread.) The motherships would still be very powerful, they would just be susceptible to warp scramblers and so should titans.
The reality is that neutralizing enough cap to prevent a cyno jump would take a ton of dedicated neutrlaizing battleships. The base cap on a Wyvern, for example, is 63, 750. With rational engineering skills that will be well over 100,000. Someone just run the numbers for giggles, I would be interested to hear it. Also run the numbers of how many heavy energy neuts (assuming the BS also is running his own cap down) it would take to prevent it from jumping and ask how much time it would take and why the pilot wouldn just jump before it got there. How many would it take to neut it below cyno level on the first try and wh wouldnt the MS just passively tank, kill a few and jump.
People asserting they can be killed are either stupid or lieing. Pick one.
If you are going to compare a Mothership to a Nimitz... the Nimitz is a force on it's own, there's no way to sink it and it has on board weapons that autonomously engage incoming threats... so lets give motherships capital sized defender missiles ![YARRRR!!](/images/icon_pirate.gif)
Also the Nimitz is more of a titan... it boosts the fleet around it and assigns targets ![Idea](/images/icon_idea.gif)
Motherships are fine as is.... get smarter ![ugh](/images/icon_bear.gif)
Real life comparisons really serve little purpose as 1 torpedo can take a carrier like the Nimitz completely out - there are no counter measures to torpedo's outside of noise generation, but even that technology is out the window when it's trying to mask the Nimitz.
The current game mechanics aren't correct because we don't have a large "sea-scape" to play in - we have 500k radius globes centered on spawn points. There are no encounters at large distances where one has time to consider the offensive effectiveness of the other.
We have a cost system that's resembles a simulator, and game play that's evolving into counter-strike, neither one supports the other and there's where the disconnect is manifesting. Either you run a simulation where slow maneuvers and developed engagements take place or you go the way of 3 minute epeen battles with a limitless spawn list - doing both is just trying to cover too many bases and makes you look stupid.
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![Hayah Theos Hayah Theos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/736990350/portrait?size=64)
Hayah Theos
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:08:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:10:43 Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:09:32
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos Now if only they could be honest enough to embrace the fact that the economic resource distribution in the game is fatally flawed too. I mean, just how is it that ANY new force in the game will ever be able to compete with established zero alliances? (And by new, I mean anyone other than the BORG). From reading this thread it is obvious that those here seem to think 25 billion isk is "chump change". How out of touch with reality these veterans are. I am sure it is the BORG's reality, since they have the major resource points of the game in their hip pocket. Eve needs serious game model resource rebalancing or it is doomed to become a shrinking "veteran's only" playpen.
Old I am. Out of touch I am not. 100M a day is easy. 1B a week is doable if you're hardcore, with less than 6M skill points. Heck you could do it with much less than that SP wise but it would take more work to get up to that level.
Those numbers are completely engine money. Created out of nothing. Not dependent on other players in any way. Risking nothing more than a shuttle. Courier mission revamp, lp store, and R&D are all newer and very lucrative. The "BORG" didn't have access to them. Granted the R&D cash is player dependent but it's just icing on the cake. Something to do while you raise massive faction to exploit.
Remember kids it doesn't matter what your corp standing is as long as their faction loves you.
******************* Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve.
Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
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![Yuleth Gix Yuleth Gix](https://images.evetech.net/characters/657177420/portrait?size=64)
Yuleth Gix
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:08:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Yuleth Gix on 24/08/2007 21:09:05
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Originally by: Rells Tunak: I like your style. Poeple using emotional arguments and you nuking them. ... Anyway.
The motherships would not all be blown up in a week. They might have to travel with a fleet and have force protection like a Nimitz Class carrier in real life. They will have to decide whether to engage or warp away before the enemy gets there, not just simply say "ya, Ill engage a few and if I get low, I will just jump." They would have to think about whether or not they are willing to get warp scrambled or not. They would lose their status as solo pwnmobiles (which is probably the reason for the plethora of obvious alts posting on the thread.) The motherships would still be very powerful, they would just be susceptible to warp scramblers and so should titans.
The reality is that neutralizing enough cap to prevent a cyno jump would take a ton of dedicated neutrlaizing battleships. The base cap on a Wyvern, for example, is 63, 750. With rational engineering skills that will be well over 100,000. Someone just run the numbers for giggles, I would be interested to hear it. Also run the numbers of how many heavy energy neuts (assuming the BS also is running his own cap down) it would take to prevent it from jumping and ask how much time it would take and why the pilot wouldn just jump before it got there. How many would it take to neut it below cyno level on the first try and wh wouldnt the MS just passively tank, kill a few and jump.
People asserting they can be killed are either stupid or lieing. Pick one.
If you are going to compare a Mothership to a Nimitz... the Nimitz is a force on it's own, there's no way to sink it and it has on board weapons that autonomously engage incoming threats... so lets give motherships capital sized defender missiles ![YARRRR!!](/images/icon_pirate.gif)
Also the Nimitz is more of a titan... it boosts the fleet around it and assigns targets ![Idea](/images/icon_idea.gif)
Motherships are fine as is.... get smarter ![ugh](/images/icon_bear.gif)
Real life comparisons really serve little purpose as 1 torpedo can take a carrier like the Nimitz completely out - there are no counter measures to torpedo's outside of noise generation, but even that technology is out the window when it's trying to mask the Nimitz.
The current game mechanics aren't correct because we don't have a large "sea-scape" to play in - we have 500k radius globes centered on spawn points. There are no encounters at large distances where one has time to consider the offensive effectiveness of the other.
We have a cost system that's resembles a simulator, and game play that's evolving into counter-strike, neither one supports the other and there's where the disconnect is manifesting. Either you run a simulation where slow maneuvers and developed engagements take place or you go the way of 3 minute epeen battles with a limitless spawn list - doing both is just trying to cover too many bases and makes you look stupid.
And I feel that's exactly one of the main problems here.
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![Bein Glorious Bein Glorious](https://images.evetech.net/characters/617062050/portrait?size=64)
Bein Glorious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:16:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Rells, you and Bein Glorious should team up and write the MS lowsec revision manifesto--it worked for scaling back doomsdays.
stop namedropping me |
![Christari Zuborov Christari Zuborov](https://images.evetech.net/characters/842346451/portrait?size=64)
Christari Zuborov
Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.08.24 21:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Hayah Theos Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:10:43 Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:09:32
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos Now if only they could be honest enough to embrace the fact that the economic resource distribution in the game is fatally flawed too. I mean, just how is it that ANY new force in the game will ever be able to compete with established zero alliances? (And by new, I mean anyone other than the BORG). From reading this thread it is obvious that those here seem to think 25 billion isk is "chump change". How out of touch with reality these veterans are. I am sure it is the BORG's reality, since they have the major resource points of the game in their hip pocket. Eve needs serious game model resource rebalancing or it is doomed to become a shrinking "veteran's only" playpen.
Old I am. Out of touch I am not. 100M a day is easy. 1B a week is doable if you're hardcore, with less than 6M skill points. Heck you could do it with much less than that SP wise but it would take more work to get up to that level.
Those numbers are completely engine money. Created out of nothing. Not dependent on other players in any way. Risking nothing more than a shuttle. Courier mission revamp, lp store, and R&D are all newer and very lucrative. The "BORG" didn't have access to them. Granted the R&D cash is player dependent but it's just icing on the cake. Something to do while you raise massive faction to exploit.
Remember kids it doesn't matter what your corp standing is as long as their faction loves you.
******************* Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve.
Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
2-3 months training, can make around 500-800m a month per alt, while logging about 5 hours game play in that time frame - all in hisec. No t2 bpo's, no mining, no bot programs, just smart time usage. It's crazy, enough isk to pay for your primary and alt accounts and nearly never log once a month.
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![ElCholo ElCholo](https://images.evetech.net/characters/873201961/portrait?size=64)
ElCholo
Minmatar FarCry Inc Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:33:00 -
[53]
Couple of nano'd dreads to play bouncy bouncy with the MS while others pound it to bits, but the MS would most likely warp at first sign of cyno in system.
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:34:00 -
[54]
To all the "Master Battle Strategists" in this thread
FRAPS OR STFU!
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![Xiaodown Xiaodown](https://images.evetech.net/characters/683618135/portrait?size=64)
Xiaodown
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:43:00 -
[55]
HOW TO TAKE DOWN A LOW SEC MOM
NEEDED: 5 guys in dreads 15 guys in frigates 10 guys in battleships with as many heavy neuts as possible, and bunches of cap boosters / cap rechargers 5 snipers in battleships, with a 150km warp-in point.
PLAN: Warp in the frigates, slowly at first, then ever faster. Make sure everyone's death clone is in system, so that they can just grab another noobship and undock again. FLY INTO THE SMARTBOMBS AND LET THEM POP YOUR SHIP, get out with your pod if you can (remember to buy clones if not).
Once the wrecks start to pile up, keep the frigs coming, warp in the battleships. Make sure you hit him with a hell of an alpha Cap hit. I mean, drain it. Get it below jump levels in the first try. Keep it there. Also, warp in the snipers to pop drones and fighters. They're just cruisers, 5 Rokhs should be able to two-volley a fighter without much of a problme.
Once he can't warp because of the frigs that are constantly in the way, and he can't cyno out cause of the cap issues, warp the dreads in, go to siege mode, and he should go down in 2-3 minutes.
------
Now, there's a nerf coming where everyone will just pass through biomass and wrecks, which is why you got to keep the frigs coming, so that there are actual ships around him.
~Xiao
--
I DJ on BoB Radio! Tune in Thursday, 10PM New York time (0200 friday evetime) to hear my totally awesome mix of ska, punk, and ownage. |
![Hayah Theos Hayah Theos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/736990350/portrait?size=64)
Hayah Theos
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:45:00 -
[56]
2-3 months training, can make around 500-800m a month per alt, while logging about 5 hours game play in that time frame - all in hisec. No t2 bpo's, no mining, no bot programs, just smart time usage. It's crazy, enough isk to pay for your primary and alt accounts and nearly never log once a month.
It's completely accessible to any average eve player, but I doubt the average newb knows enough of the game to know how.
************ In order to do what you are suggesting, you must first have amounts of isk that is beyond that which the AVERAGE player has. It takes isk to make isk.... again, you are out of touch. Besides, the AVERAGE player would rather spend the first year "playing" Eve rather than "saving up" to play Eve. Most players don't stick around for that long because they lose interest.
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![Xiaodown Xiaodown](https://images.evetech.net/characters/683618135/portrait?size=64)
Xiaodown
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ElCholo Couple of nano'd dreads to play bouncy bouncy with the MS while others pound it to bits, but the MS would most likely warp at first sign of cyno in system.
So cyno in the dreads the day before and have them dock.
Dreads can do that. --
I DJ on BoB Radio! Tune in Thursday, 10PM New York time (0200 friday evetime) to hear my totally awesome mix of ska, punk, and ownage. |
![Illyria Ambri Illyria Ambri](https://images.evetech.net/characters/266784042/portrait?size=64)
Illyria Ambri
RennTech
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:47:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Rei Sara
Originally by: Spenz If the devs said it was possible for a titan to cyno out a few seconds after a DDD no matter how much cap it took, can you imagine how many battleships with neuts will be needed to keep a mothership from cynoing?
I'm stuck at work at the moment, so I can't run the numbers, but I'd really be interested in seeing exactly how much cap you'd have to keep siphoned off a mothership (assuming a pilot with all relevant skills maxed) to prevent it from jumping.
It's probably an intimidating number, but I bet it's not as insurmountable as one might think. Keep in mind that if you're actually engaging the mothership with an appropriate force you should be doing enough damage that they're burning a fair bit of their own cap keeping their tank up.
Well apparently 50 battleships and 20 dreads isn't enough vs 1 MOM and a rapier.
Im curious to know what the "appropriate force" you refer to would consist of.. 60 Bs's? 100 BS with 70 dreads?
Please.. tell us what you would consider the "appropriate force" to take down Mom's in low-sec. Prior to them cynoing or warping out of course..
Awaiting your enlightinment and fleet composition numbers. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Here come the Drums!! - The Master |
![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:53:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Xiaodown
HOW TO TAKE DOWN A LOW SEC MOM
NEEDED: 5 guys in dreads 15 guys in frigates 10 guys in battleships with as many heavy neuts as possible, and bunches of cap boosters / cap rechargers 5 snipers in battleships, with a 150km warp-in point.
PLAN: Warp in the frigates, slowly at first, then ever faster. Make sure everyone's death clone is in system, so that they can just grab another noobship and undock again. FLY INTO THE SMARTBOMBS AND LET THEM POP YOUR SHIP, get out with your pod if you can (remember to buy clones if not).
Once the wrecks start to pile up, keep the frigs coming, warp in the battleships. Make sure you hit him with a hell of an alpha Cap hit. I mean, drain it. Get it below jump levels in the first try. Keep it there. Also, warp in the snipers to pop drones and fighters. They're just cruisers, 5 Rokhs should be able to two-volley a fighter without much of a problme.
Once he can't warp because of the frigs that are constantly in the way, and he can't cyno out cause of the cap issues, warp the dreads in, go to siege mode, and he should go down in 2-3 minutes.
------
Now, there's a nerf coming where everyone will just pass through biomass and wrecks, which is why you got to keep the frigs coming, so that there are actual ships around him.
~Xiao
1. Officer Smart Bombs 2. 3. Since you are such a master battle strategist oh wait who's alliance takes part in MOM camps in Aunenen(sp)wouldn't said strategy be null as you know what they are doing? 4. If you are so tough lets see you put this plan in action I want to see a wreck
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![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:53:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve. Then tell us all about how you don't have a death-grip on 10/10 Complexes...
You people are so transparent and self-serving. Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
Idiot. Did you miss the part where I said less than 6M SP? Did you miss the part where I said using only a shuttle. Both those points mean that T2 BPO or Capital ships are not needed. 10/10 complexes? No one farms those anymore. CCP nerfed them. Please try and know something about the game.
As for how. I already told you. I'll use smaller words. Lvl 4 courier missions pay 2.7M a mission. You can do them in a shuttle. No skills needed. Nothing ever risked. isk is free. Anyone can be "rich".
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![Xiaodown Xiaodown](https://images.evetech.net/characters/683618135/portrait?size=64)
Xiaodown
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:56:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Rei Sara Maybe it would take more than "a few",
Well, if you're talking about neutralizing a mothership - it wouldn't be that hard. Seriously.
10 battleships (as per my plan) x 5 heavy and 3x medium neuts a piece = (5x800) and (3x150) cap neutralized. See where I'm going with this? One ship, one volley of neut = 4450 cap gone. Ten ships, set up the same way = 44,500 cap gone. Alpha strike.
Even if it's only cap stable 2 volleys, that's 89,000 cap gone in 11 seconds. Base cap on a Nyx is 67,500. You will COMPLETELY CAP OUT A MOTHERSHIP in 11 seconds with 10 neutralizing battleships.
Bye bye tank, bye bye cyno. Hello forum notoriety.
~X
--
I DJ on BoB Radio! Tune in Thursday, 10PM New York time (0200 friday evetime) to hear my totally awesome mix of ska, punk, and ownage. |
![Xiaodown Xiaodown](https://images.evetech.net/characters/683618135/portrait?size=64)
Xiaodown
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.24 22:01:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Captian Internet
1. Officer Smart Bombs 2. 3. Since you are such a master battle strategist oh wait who's alliance takes part in MOM camps in Aunenen(sp)wouldn't said strategy be null as you know what they are doing? 4. If you are so tough lets see you put this plan in action I want to see a wreck
Hey, I never said we weren't pirates. Check the TRI killboard; I was there last night with the Nyx popping everything that came through the gate. We were LOOKING FOR A CHALLENGE. Did you miss the part where we popped an officer fitted nightmare and a dread in 10 minutes?
If you manage to kill a mothership that someone is actively piloting, and not like a dumbass, in low sec, you did good. Period, whether it's from my alliance or not.
Oh, and officer smartbombs... yeah? So? Kills the frigs, as I said before. You gotta keep the frigs in there, warping in so he gets bumped and can't align. They're going to die. If you have enough of them, it would still accomplish the goal.
Honestly, though - if you just warped the cap-hungry battleships in, and I just ran the numbers - do you think a Mom can align for warp in 10 seconds or less? Cause, you can alpha hit it so that it can't cyno (44,500 cap, see above post). If you can manage to keep it so it can't align to warp for another 11 seconds... what's the cost to initiate warp in one of those things? What's it cost to keep the smartbombs running?
If you cap out a mothership, it's pretty vulnerable.
~Xiao
Xiao --
I DJ on BoB Radio! Tune in Thursday, 10PM New York time (0200 friday evetime) to hear my totally awesome mix of ska, punk, and ownage. |
![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.24 22:11:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Xiaodown
Originally by: Captian Internet
1. Officer Smart Bombs 2. 3. Since you are such a master battle strategist oh wait who's alliance takes part in MOM camps in Aunenen(sp)wouldn't said strategy be null as you know what they are doing? 4. If you are so tough lets see you put this plan in action I want to see a wreck
Hey, I never said we weren't pirates. Check the TRI killboard; I was there last night with the Nyx popping everything that came through the gate. We were LOOKING FOR A CHALLENGE. Did you miss the part where we popped an officer fitted nightmare and a dread in 10 minutes?
If you manage to kill a mothership that someone is actively piloting, and not like a dumbass, in low sec, you did good. Period, whether it's from my alliance or not.
Oh, and officer smartbombs... yeah? So? Kills the frigs, as I said before. You gotta keep the frigs in there, warping in so he gets bumped and can't align. They're going to die. If you have enough of them, it would still accomplish the goal.
Honestly, though - if you just warped the cap-hungry battleships in, and I just ran the numbers - do you think a Mom can align for warp in 10 seconds or less? Cause, you can alpha hit it so that it can't cyno (44,500 cap, see above post). If you can manage to keep it so it can't align to warp for another 11 seconds... what's the cost to initiate warp in one of those things? What's it cost to keep the smartbombs running?
If you cap out a mothership, it's pretty vulnerable.
~Xiao
Xiao
The amount of frigs you are proposing are quite high as the smartbombs would pop the frigs and their wrecks
also I was just using you as an example also said pilot you mentioned was a tard
But what I want to see is your method I want to see you do it.
Prove me wrong please
Alpha train an MS and cyno in death for it. You have the resources, you have the plan, now please stand and deliver.
If you prove me wrong I will kindly stfu
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![Shar'Tuk TheHated Shar'Tuk TheHated](https://images.evetech.net/characters/325772332/portrait?size=64)
Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2007.08.24 23:02:00 -
[64]
Heres an idea.. I think maybe once they enter low sec they should no longer be immune to ewar. Maybe to abide by some laws or something making it illegal and it shuts off while in sec space. Once in null sec space its back on since its corp law. Maybe on top you could have a highly illegal "outlaw" mod that hacks it and turns it back on to some degree but you cant stay in any one place x amount of time or concord will show up. They do need some type of protection on one hand since they are a huge investment but on the same hand they shouldnt be used as a solo pwn mobile. Anyhow its just an idea please not too many flames eh? ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
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![Hayah Theos Hayah Theos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/736990350/portrait?size=64)
Hayah Theos
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Posted - 2007.08.24 23:04:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve. Then tell us all about how you don't have a death-grip on 10/10 Complexes...
You people are so transparent and self-serving. Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
Idiot. Did you miss the part where I said less than 6M SP? Did you miss the part where I said using only a shuttle. Both those points mean that T2 BPO or Capital ships are not needed. 10/10 complexes? No one farms those anymore. CCP nerfed them. Please try and know something about the game.
As for how. I already told you. I'll use smaller words. Lvl 4 courier missions pay 2.7M a mission. You can do them in a shuttle. No skills needed. Nothing ever risked. isk is free. Anyone can be "rich".
************** 100 million a day divided by 2.7 million per mission is about 37 missions per day to do that.... Simple math betrays you. I'm not sure anyone reading this believes you. Unless you have multiple accounts to do nothing but run Courier missions, which sounds very much like an exploit to me.
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![LeHarujm Fah LeHarujm Fah](https://images.evetech.net/characters/124519069/portrait?size=64)
LeHarujm Fah
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Posted - 2007.08.24 23:08:00 -
[66]
Edited by: LeHarujm Fah on 24/08/2007 23:08:19 Why can't you just neut him? That's not impossible.
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![Viridian Sky Viridian Sky](https://images.evetech.net/characters/583776447/portrait?size=64)
Viridian Sky
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Posted - 2007.08.24 23:09:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Viridian Sky on 24/08/2007 23:09:36
Originally by: Captian Internet
Originally by: Xiaodown
Originally by: Captian Internet
*snip*
Hey, I never said we weren't pirates. Check the TRI killboard; I was there last night with the Nyx popping everything that came through the gate. We were LOOKING FOR A CHALLENGE. Did you miss the part where we popped an officer fitted nightmare and a dread in 10 minutes?
If you manage to kill a mothership that someone is actively piloting, and not like a dumbass, in low sec, you did good. Period, whether it's from my alliance or not.
Oh, and officer smartbombs... yeah? So? Kills the frigs, as I said before. You gotta keep the frigs in there, warping in so he gets bumped and can't align. They're going to die. If you have enough of them, it would still accomplish the goal.
Honestly, though - if you just warped the cap-hungry battleships in, and I just ran the numbers - do you think a Mom can align for warp in 10 seconds or less? Cause, you can alpha hit it so that it can't cyno (44,500 cap, see above post). If you can manage to keep it so it can't align to warp for another 11 seconds... what's the cost to initiate warp in one of those things? What's it cost to keep the smartbombs running?
If you cap out a mothership, it's pretty vulnerable.
~Xiao
Xiao
The amount of frigs you are proposing are quite high as the smartbombs would pop the frigs and their wrecks
also I was just using you as an example also said pilot you mentioned was a tard
But what I want to see is your method I want to see you do it.
Prove me wrong please
Alpha train an MS and cyno in death for it. You have the resources, you have the plan, now please stand and deliver.
If you prove me wrong I will kindly stfu
What if I tell you that LV did that to an RA (I /think/ it was RA) mom. It was ratting and then got jumped by a bunch of neut/nos BSes and died. Anyone who claims it's impossible to kill a mom is just mad that they can't figure out how to do it on his or her own. It is very possible and has been done before. Bump + neut == win (as long as you have competent pilots on board).
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![Cyan Nuevo Cyan Nuevo](https://images.evetech.net/characters/605663572/portrait?size=64)
Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
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Posted - 2007.08.24 23:14:00 -
[68]
Motherships in lowsec is indeed a problem, but fixing it is not "as simple as" making the affected by warp jammers and webs. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.24 23:19:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Viridian Sky
What if I tell you that LV did that to an RA (I /think/ it was RA) mom. It was ratting and then got jumped by a bunch of neut/nos BSes and died. Anyone who claims it's impossible to kill a mom is just mad that they can't figure out how to do it on his or her own. It is very possible and has been done before. Bump + neut == win (as long as you have competent pilots on board).
Proof or STFU
Text is cheap
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![Shar'Tuk TheHated Shar'Tuk TheHated](https://images.evetech.net/characters/325772332/portrait?size=64)
Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2007.08.24 23:21:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Shar''Tuk TheHated on 24/08/2007 23:23:36
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Motherships in lowsec is indeed a problem, but fixing it is not "as simple as" making the affected by warp jammers and webs.
well if they arent immune to ewar then they would/could be in trouble rather quickly. Now thinking about my idea above the "outlaw" mod would have to be limited in use by time and how long it lasted and possible how quick concord would pick up on it scaling up with system sec.
edit. in effect it would be a oh sh** button and nothing you would turn on and leave on.
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![RigelKentaurus RigelKentaurus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/326996536/portrait?size=64)
RigelKentaurus
Flying Reblochons Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2007.08.24 23:26:00 -
[71]
Edited by: RigelKentaurus on 24/08/2007 23:26:21
Originally by: Tunak As for how. I already told you. I'll use smaller words. Lvl 4 courier missions pay 2.7M a mission. You can do them in a shuttle. No skills needed. Nothing ever risked. isk is free. Anyone can be "rich".
2.7M a mission, with a shuttle?! Where?! ![Shocked](/images/icon_eek.gif)
All my lvl 4 agents must be greedy then, in every lvl 4 courier mission I've done I had to carry over 5000 m3 of stuff, and the reward was around 400k isk.
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![Nathomos Nathomos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/446751504/portrait?size=64)
Nathomos
Minmatar Magellan Exploration and Survey Zzz
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Posted - 2007.08.25 00:35:00 -
[72]
It is so easy to avoid getting killed by capital ships in low sec, if you can't you need to learn some tactics...
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.25 00:38:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Nathomos It is so easy to avoid getting killed by capital ships in low sec, if you can't you need to learn some tactics...
Thats not the issue
The problem is how do you kill super caps in lowsec?
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![Surfin's PlunderBunny Surfin's PlunderBunny](https://images.evetech.net/characters/220512235/portrait?size=64)
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2007.08.25 00:49:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Captian Internet
Originally by: Nathomos It is so easy to avoid getting killed by capital ships in low sec, if you can't you need to learn some tactics...
Thats not the issue
The problem is how do you kill super caps in lowsec?
You gotta wait till the pilot falls asleep ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
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![Reem Fairchild Reem Fairchild](https://images.evetech.net/characters/329920470/portrait?size=64)
Reem Fairchild
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Posted - 2007.08.25 01:19:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 25/08/2007 01:24:26
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny If you are going to compare a Mothership to a Nimitz... the Nimitz is a force on it's own, there's no way to sink it and it has on board weapons that autonomously engage incoming threats... so lets give motherships capital sized defender missiles ![YARRRR!!](/images/icon_pirate.gif)
Also the Nimitz is more of a titan... it boosts the fleet around it and assigns targets ![Idea](/images/icon_idea.gif)
Motherships are fine as is.... get smarter ![ugh](/images/icon_bear.gif)
A real life aircraft carrier like the Nimitz is easy to kill if it's on its own and undefended. It's aircrafts can do a fair bit in keeping bombers and submarines off of it, but not nearly enough when a naval bomber or submarine firing missiles from extremely long ranges can kill it. Which is why it would never go anywhere on its own. A carrier group is all about the carrier and the firepower it can deliver with its aircraft. Practically every other ship in the group (whether it's for airdefense or ASW) is just there to keep it alive.
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![Brunswick2 Brunswick2](https://images.evetech.net/characters/720384939/portrait?size=64)
Brunswick2
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.25 01:21:00 -
[76]
Kill its fighters
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.25 01:25:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Captian Internet on 25/08/2007 01:25:31
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Originally by: Captian Internet
Originally by: Nathomos It is so easy to avoid getting killed by capital ships in low sec, if you can't you need to learn some tactics...
Thats not the issue
The problem is how do you kill super caps in lowsec?
You gotta wait till the pilot falls asleep ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
¼_¼
Originally by: Brunswick2 Kill its fighters
Read the op
The question is how to kill the ship not its ability to shoot
Yes shooting drones on drone ships cut out dps but if you've got the cash for an ms you've got the cash for more fighters
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![Rastigan Rastigan](https://images.evetech.net/characters/246990199/portrait?size=64)
Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.25 01:28:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Rastigan on 25/08/2007 01:28:44
Originally by: Xiaodown
Bye bye tank, bye bye cyno. Hello forum notoriety. ~X
Cant you just initiate warp with very little to no cap ?
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![Reem Fairchild Reem Fairchild](https://images.evetech.net/characters/329920470/portrait?size=64)
Reem Fairchild
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Posted - 2007.08.25 01:36:00 -
[79]
The solution is very easy. Capital ships can't go in to high-sec. Super capitals are a big step up from capitals. The one thing you (nowadays) are able to use to kill supercapitals (and then you still need a sizable fleet with capitals to bring it down) can only be used in 0.0.
So, you shouldn't be able to bring super capitals into low-sec.
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![Cpt Placeholder Cpt Placeholder](https://images.evetech.net/characters/588391389/portrait?size=64)
Cpt Placeholder
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Posted - 2007.08.25 01:38:00 -
[80]
I was toying around with EFT and got the Nyx to a (FULL >80k) cap recharge time of 11.7 sec. That is with cap implants and best officer CPRs and cap rechargers.
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![7shining7one7 7shining7one7](https://images.evetech.net/characters/102891953/portrait?size=64)
7shining7one7
Quafe Paladins
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Posted - 2007.08.25 01:46:00 -
[81]
Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 25/08/2007 01:54:08 Very interesting post. some nice comments. and a subject i've given a lot of thought hearing about this more and more.
I've read the entire post and i want to do my best to sum up what has been talked about, and you are free to correct any / all mistakes. And then i would like to give my oppinion on the matter, so without further to do, here goes.
Super Capitals should be hard to kill, they take tremendous effort in many areas to get and maintain, and should thusly also be rewarded with superiority.
Bubbles are key tools to stop them. Bubbles cannot be used in low sec.
Nerfing capital ships across the board as the OP suggests, i'll humbly oppinionate will be missing the point.
Some might add to that, by arguing that doing so would create an imbalance between the effort to get one, and the superiority payoff, and i wouldn't disagree.
The crux of the matter as I see it is this:
The tools to take down Super Capitals are not in low sec, only 0.0.
Super Capitals are thusly nigh impossible to kill in low sec relative to how hard they are to kill in 0.0
Many agree that Super Capitals camping low sec is a "lame idea", and i wouldn't disagree.
Without alteration, low sec "control" might in the future be determined mostly on who fields the most super capitals. Simply because the 0.0 tools to help kill them aren't there.
Is this really what we want low sec battles to be reduced to?
I think it is ok to have Super Capitals in low sec, it takes tremendous effort of those that have them to actually manage it. and this should offcourse be respected. But.. if super capitals, that offcourse truly belong in 0.0 warfare are to be in low sec, it would stand to reason that you would be granted the same tools to kill them as you have in 0.0.
A possible solution:
Enable bubbles in low sec, but have the low sec bubbles only working on Super Capitals and no other ships (go through effect - immaterial for other ships).
This would:
Be moderately easy for ccp to implement
Preserve the current game mechanics for super capitals low sec and 0.0.
Enable people to kill super capitals in low sec in the same way they would go about it in 0.0.
Hope you fancy the idea.
Cheers & fly safe
7
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![Surfin's PlunderBunny Surfin's PlunderBunny](https://images.evetech.net/characters/220512235/portrait?size=64)
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2007.08.25 02:39:00 -
[82]
Screw discriminant bubbles... give us straight up interdictor ability in lowsec... YARRRRRRRRRR ![Twisted Evil](/images/icon_twisted.gif)
Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
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![Caius Sivaris Caius Sivaris](https://images.evetech.net/characters/889550263/portrait?size=64)
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2007.08.25 02:53:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Jezala No problem here. Just stick to Tux's advice, bump and NOS...bump and NOS baby. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
It wasn't Tux... It was CCP LeMonde in that infamous post. Credit Tux with being way smarter than that.
Ah yeah CCP LeMonde aka Vegeta, a mothership pilot with a vested interest in saying that supercaps are killable while they aren't practically (in lowsec).
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![Lowanaera Lowanaera](https://images.evetech.net/characters/303337139/portrait?size=64)
Lowanaera
Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.25 03:01:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Captian Internet
Originally by: Nathomos It is so easy to avoid getting killed by capital ships in low sec, if you can't you need to learn some tactics...
Thats not the issue
The problem is how do you kill super caps in lowsec?
That's really the key point the "it's fine, ltp" parrots are missing. What was the imbalance with dual-MWD BS? What was the imbalance with WCSed combat ships? What was the imbalance with nano-BS? Not having too much DPS, not being able to kill anything they come across, it was lack of risk. Engaging in combat should ALWAYS carry risk. Being able to engage, and then disengage with impunity is very much broken, and that's what motherships are able to do in low-sec. It doesn't matter if it's easy to avoid them, it doesn't matter if their DPS isn't exceptional, the fact that they can disengage at will with no recourse available to stop it is broken.
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![kionlol kionlol](https://images.evetech.net/characters/416299837/portrait?size=64)
kionlol
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Posted - 2007.08.25 03:15:00 -
[85]
for sure smartbombing nyx is lol, I have been killed at the low sec pass from amarr empire to matard one and lost 500m cargo :D
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.25 03:26:00 -
[86]
Originally by: kionlol for sure smartbombing nyx is lol, I have been killed at the low sec pass from amarr empire to matard one and lost 500m cargo :D
Thats just a dumb move
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![falcinious falcinious](https://images.evetech.net/characters/196069288/portrait?size=64)
falcinious
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Posted - 2007.08.25 04:01:00 -
[87]
Originally by: RigelKentaurus Edited by: RigelKentaurus on 24/08/2007 23:26:21
Originally by: Tunak As for how. I already told you. I'll use smaller words. Lvl 4 courier missions pay 2.7M a mission. You can do them in a shuttle. No skills needed. Nothing ever risked. isk is free. Anyone can be "rich".
2.7M a mission, with a shuttle?! Where?! ![Shocked](/images/icon_eek.gif)
All my lvl 4 agents must be greedy then, in every lvl 4 courier mission I've done I had to carry over 5000 m3 of stuff, and the reward was around 400k isk.
The ceo of my old corp would run courier missions for devolle labs (sp?) for gallente with 90% of them being in a shuttle. I dont know how much he made per mission though.
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![ForumPosterAlt ForumPosterAlt](https://images.evetech.net/characters/160056336/portrait?size=64)
ForumPosterAlt
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2007.08.25 04:38:00 -
[88]
Better idea: make fighters undeployable in lowsec. Then they're just overpriced dominixes.
Because posting on the forums is serious business. |
![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.25 05:19:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Xiaodown
HOW TO TAKE DOWN A LOW SEC MOM
NEEDED: 5 guys in dreads 15 guys in frigates 10 guys in battleships with as many heavy neuts as possible, and bunches of cap boosters / cap rechargers 5 snipers in battleships, with a 150km warp-in point.
PLAN: Warp in the frigates, slowly at first, then ever faster. Make sure everyone's death clone is in system, so that they can just grab another noobship and undock again. FLY INTO THE SMARTBOMBS AND LET THEM POP YOUR SHIP, get out with your pod if you can (remember to buy clones if not).
Once the wrecks start to pile up, keep the frigs coming, warp in the battleships. Make sure you hit him with a hell of an alpha Cap hit. I mean, drain it. Get it below jump levels in the first try. Keep it there. Also, warp in the snipers to pop drones and fighters. They're just cruisers, 5 Rokhs should be able to two-volley a fighter without much of a problme.
Once he can't warp because of the frigs that are constantly in the way, and he can't cyno out cause of the cap issues, warp the dreads in, go to siege mode, and he should go down in 2-3 minutes.
------
Now, there's a nerf coming where everyone will just pass through biomass and wrecks, which is why you got to keep the frigs coming, so that there are actual ships around him.
~Xiao
1) Wrecks will soon be immaterial and stop alignment. 2) After he kilsl a few BS he will cyno out because you will need a ton more than 10 bs to neutralize him and KEEP him below jump cap. He will slaughter those neut BSes as they run out of cap for their tank and just laugh at the dreads. If you get enough force in to hurt him, he cynos.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Sakura Nihil Sakura Nihil](https://images.evetech.net/characters/409891337/portrait?size=64)
Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.08.25 06:08:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 25/08/2007 06:13:11 Related news.
I agree though, these things are virtually unkillable in lowsec... ![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif)
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![Jacob Holland Jacob Holland](https://images.evetech.net/characters/631394150/portrait?size=64)
Jacob Holland
Gallente 19th Star Logistics
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Posted - 2007.08.25 06:24:00 -
[91]
Didn't Ginger Magician lose a Nyx not that long ago? The Fleet which took him down were set up specifically for him and it did take a while to take him down but... There was a video of it and everything...
--
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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![Voculus Voculus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/788073407/portrait?size=64)
Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.25 06:43:00 -
[92]
Quote: They cannot defend themselves against well organized, well armed gangs/blobs.
They don't have to. They can just cyno-jump out.
CCP need to make motherships vulnerable to warp-scrambling, or remove them from lo-sec altogether. My vote is to limit them to 0.0 only. Smartbombing shuttles and haulers in an unkillable ship is not PvP. It's called gaming the game, and it's bad for Eve. _________________________________________________________
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![Venkul Mul Venkul Mul](https://images.evetech.net/characters/640524843/portrait?size=64)
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.25 06:56:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 25/08/2007 06:56:41
Originally by: Tunak
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
Afther your opening phrases any argument you use has lost any value. "isk is free" my *****.
If your isk are soo free equip your whole corporation in officer gear and nuke that mom.
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![Caligulus Caligulus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/725352339/portrait?size=64)
Caligulus
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.08.25 09:11:00 -
[94]
The only real plausible answer is to remove super caps from low sec space. Monetary value in this extreme is an absurd rational for a super cap's ability to always fall back. Buying the top end equipment should give you a distinct advantage, but not to this extreme.
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![Pan Crastus Pan Crastus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/611751346/portrait?size=64)
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.08.25 09:17:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Rei Sara but keep in mind that somebody did spend -a lot- of money on that thing,
Also keep in mind that most of those people who solo pirate with motherships in lowsec are ISK buyers ...
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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![Amy Wang Amy Wang](https://images.evetech.net/characters/722733626/portrait?size=64)
Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.08.25 10:02:00 -
[96]
Easy solution:
Introduce module "Capital warp disruptor"
- can only be activated in low sec, not 0.0 - can only be fitted to interdictors
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![MassonA MassonA](https://images.evetech.net/characters/162747510/portrait?size=64)
MassonA
Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.25 10:07:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Amy Wang - can only be activated in low sec, not 0.0
the ****?!
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![Steini OFSI Steini OFSI](https://images.evetech.net/characters/150530256/portrait?size=64)
Steini OFSI
Gallente Minigame
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Posted - 2007.08.25 11:35:00 -
[98]
Motherships could be given base warp strength of let's say 25, you'd need at least dozen warp scramblers and a disruptor on the mom but it would be pinned down by a sizable fleet if no one is there to help it. And even so it should be able to kill those scrambling it.
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![Steini OFSI Steini OFSI](https://images.evetech.net/characters/150530256/portrait?size=64)
Steini OFSI
Gallente Minigame
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Posted - 2007.08.25 11:35:00 -
[99]
Motherships could be given base warp strength of let's say 25, you'd need at least dozen warp scramblers and a disruptor on the mom but it would be pinned down by a sizable fleet if no one is there to help it. And even so it should be able to kill those scrambling it.
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![Lieutenant Seras Lieutenant Seras](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1165348261/portrait?size=64)
Lieutenant Seras
Minmatar Sector 7 Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.08.25 11:40:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 19:35:50 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:27:00 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:25:24 I got to thinking
Stop doing that.
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![Lieutenant Seras Lieutenant Seras](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1165348261/portrait?size=64)
Lieutenant Seras
Minmatar Sector 7 Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.08.25 11:40:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 19:35:50 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:27:00 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:25:24 I got to thinking
Stop doing that.
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![Minmatar096773 Minmatar096773](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1278567693/portrait?size=64)
Minmatar096773
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Posted - 2007.08.25 12:00:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Minmatar096773 No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip.
Do you have a problem reading? No amarr ship is invincible.
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![Essque Essque](https://images.evetech.net/characters/752253955/portrait?size=64)
Essque
Starlancers Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.08.25 12:00:00 -
[103]
Have you heard of Occam's razor ? Why make it so complicated when the answer is extremely simple.
Can a certain ship be killed in a certain area using "normal" game mechanics ? If the answer is yes, allow that ship in the said area. If the answer is no, then don't. Problem solved, no more "I win" buttons.
Dreads and Carriers aren't immune to EWAR, they should be allowed in low sec. Motherships and Titans can't even be build in low sec to my knowledge, can only be stopped with an Interdictor bubble, which again can be only deployed in 0.0, so why allow then in low sec in the first place ? Honestly, Motherships and Titans are tools to defend or conquer 0.0 space, there is absolutely no need for them to be used in low sec anyway. Have you ever heard of large fleet battles in low sec ( 300 vs 300, 0.0 style ) ? I haven't. Do you want to get rid of a POS in low sec ? Bring your Dreads and Carriers and blow it to pieces, no problem.
In my opinion, the current situation is a ballance error which the developers should look into A.S.A.P. and take the necessary measures.
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![Anna Grahm Anna Grahm](https://images.evetech.net/characters/664273328/portrait?size=64)
Anna Grahm
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.25 12:47:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Rells There are alliances that got in on the ground floor of tech 2 (BoB for example) that have tens of trillions of isk[citation needed]. Cost isnt a factor. Even with the cost and even if you could warp scram them, the would still be bloody hard to kill. But at least it would be possible.
And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard.
fixed I am NOT an alt! |
![RtoZ RtoZ](https://images.evetech.net/characters/921293604/portrait?size=64)
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.25 15:52:00 -
[105]
Edited by: RtoZ on 25/08/2007 15:52:34 With a big enough fleet it should be possible to kill one in lowsec if I read this thread right...
But it won't be a gank, it would be a fleet op. The steps required are the following:
1) Intel has to be done and maybe a first faux attempt at killing him has to be done, to check out where he has cyno alts. If said mothership is in a big alliance killing it becomes improbable, but it will show up in 0.0 later anyway, if it belongs to a smaller pirate corp or individual it becomes more viable. Once the cynos are known they have to be set as objectives and have to be hunted down.
2) The mothership has to be baited into coming into the open, where it has to be jumped with enough neut to stop it from jumping and with enough support so that losses will be replaced without it being able to get its cap back. It WILL kill ships during this phase, but if the neut pilots are smart they can scatter and get the fighters to follow them, which would reduce the mom pilot's options. You can't just take the number of ships you need to do the numbers, you need an extra contingent to act as a damage buffer so that the ships which are not under pressure can do their job, plus you need a few more to stand in when others run out of cap. A few dreads should start pounding it. Meanwhile the cyno alts have to be under pressure by a sizeable gang so that if they popup they get killed or pinpoint the next system the mom will be in, if it cynos under timer it won't be able to log off for a while, so there is a chance the aggressor fleet can make it there in time to continue the assault.
3) Rince and repeat as necessary untill the mom is out of options and has to make its last stand.
By no means easy but it should be possible. With the pricetags on these things I don't think it's gamebalance to make them easier to kill. They have their own little caveats, like being extremely slow and when you think about it they only have the damage output of two carriers, which for 20b+ isn't that good a deal. But it's also a pricetag big enough to justify their ewar immunity imo. Sure, an op like I described is a totally different methodology than just taking a target of opportunity, so it takes a different mindset. In short, killing Moms in lowsec is indeed impossible, but not for everyone. It takes resources, time and organisation. That is how it should be, again imo. I am pretty sure if Agony setup a mark, and put enough effort into it and loosely followed my MO here, they could get a lowsec momship kill eventually. If it is worth the time and effort is another issue, but imo it probably is, with the chance of them dropping 10b in mods being very real.
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:00:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Jacob Holland Didn't Ginger Magician lose a Nyx not that long ago? The Fleet which took him down were set up specifically for him and it did take a while to take him down but... There was a video of it and everything...
The closest ginger magician got to a Nyx got him perma banned
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:01:00 -
[107]
Originally by: RtoZ Edited by: RtoZ on 25/08/2007 15:52:34 With a big enough fleet it should be possible to kill one in lowsec if I read this thread right...
But it won't be a gank, it would be a fleet op. The steps required are the following:
1) Intel has to be done and maybe a first faux attempt at killing him has to be done, to check out where he has cyno alts. If said mothership is in a big alliance killing it becomes improbable, but it will show up in 0.0 later anyway, if it belongs to a smaller pirate corp or individual it becomes more viable. Once the cynos are known they have to be set as objectives and have to be hunted down.
2) The mothership has to be baited into coming into the open, where it has to be jumped with enough neut to stop it from jumping and with enough support so that losses will be replaced without it being able to get its cap back. It WILL kill ships during this phase, but if the neut pilots are smart they can scatter and get the fighters to follow them, which would reduce the mom pilot's options. You can't just take the number of ships you need to do the numbers, you need an extra contingent to act as a damage buffer so that the ships which are not under pressure can do their job, plus you need a few more to stand in when others run out of cap. A few dreads should start pounding it. Meanwhile the cyno alts have to be under pressure by a sizeable gang so that if they popup they get killed or pinpoint the next system the mom will be in, if it cynos under timer it won't be able to log off for a while, so there is a chance the aggressor fleet can make it there in time to continue the assault.
3) Rince and repeat as necessary untill the mom is out of options and has to make its last stand.
By no means easy but it should be possible. With the pricetags on these things I don't think it's gamebalance to make them easier to kill. They have their own little caveats, like being extremely slow and when you think about it they only have the damage output of two carriers, which for 20b+ isn't that good a deal. But it's also a pricetag big enough to justify their ewar immunity imo. Sure, an op like I described is a totally different methodology than just taking a target of opportunity, so it takes a different mindset. In short, killing Moms in lowsec is indeed impossible, but not for everyone. It takes resources, time and organisation. That is how it should be, again imo. I am pretty sure if Agony setup a mark, and put enough effort into it and loosely followed my MO here, they could get a lowsec momship kill eventually. If it is worth the time and effort is another issue, but imo it probably is, with the chance of them dropping 10b in mods being very real.
Do it then master strategist
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![HaulandHaul HaulandHaul](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1005250769/portrait?size=64)
HaulandHaul
Gallente Caldari Deep Space Ventures Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:17:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Imperius Blackheart
A few neuts, or at the moment nos... nothing is "unkillable" in lowsec, you just need some organisation and planning. A group of around 12 remote repping BS should be able to kill a momma in low sec.
The MS would just warp. And 12 BS wouldnt ***** the tank of a Mothership. Not even close. Unless the MS pilot was a complete moron. Furthermore, "a few neuts" ? How much cap does a MS have again?
Shall we be rational here? Back up your claims. Flippant or trite answers wont solve the dilemma. Lets hear your battleplan for killing a MS in lowsec with "a few neuts" and "12 remote repping BS"
If u get 22billion isk of battleships together and all hit approach and all have a few energy neuts fitted.... Byebye mother****.
Nuff said
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![Irob Urore Irob Urore](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1170156031/portrait?size=64)
Irob Urore
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:29:00 -
[109]
super caps cant enter lowsec .. problem solved. ![Razz](/images/icon_razz.gif)
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![Steve Hawkings Steve Hawkings](https://images.evetech.net/characters/417478595/portrait?size=64)
Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2007.08.25 17:35:00 -
[110]
Quote: Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons:
1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship) 2. They are expensive to maintain (jump fuel, fighters, safe locations to hide it.)
This part amused me, Why should cost have anything to do with it ?
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![heheheh heheheh](https://images.evetech.net/characters/963045606/portrait?size=64)
heheheh
Singularity. Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.08.25 17:39:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Xiaodown
Originally by: Captian Internet
1. Officer Smart Bombs 2. 3. Since you are such a master battle strategist oh wait who's alliance takes part in MOM camps in Aunenen(sp)wouldn't said strategy be null as you know what they are doing? 4. If you are so tough lets see you put this plan in action I want to see a wreck
Hey, I never said we weren't pirates. Check the TRI killboard; I was there last night with the Nyx popping everything that came through the gate. We were LOOKING FOR A CHALLENGE. Did you miss the part where we popped an officer fitted nightmare and a dread in 10 minutes?
If you manage to kill a mothership that someone is actively piloting, and not like a dumbass, in low sec, you did good. Period, whether it's from my alliance or not.
Oh, and officer smartbombs... yeah? So? Kills the frigs, as I said before. You gotta keep the frigs in there, warping in so he gets bumped and can't align. They're going to die. If you have enough of them, it would still accomplish the goal.
Honestly, though - if you just warped the cap-hungry battleships in, and I just ran the numbers - do you think a Mom can align for warp in 10 seconds or less? Cause, you can alpha hit it so that it can't cyno (44,500 cap, see above post). If you can manage to keep it so it can't align to warp for another 11 seconds... what's the cost to initiate warp in one of those things? What's it cost to keep the smartbombs running?
If you cap out a mothership, it's pretty vulnerable.
~Xiao
Xiao
Looking for a challenge at a low sec gate in a mom ? how stupid can u get.
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![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.26 20:55:00 -
[112]
Originally by: heheheh
Looking for a challenge at a low sec gate in a mom ? how stupid can u get.
Dont ask questions you dont REALLY want answered. ![Wink](/images/icon_wink.gif)
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![Lowanaera Lowanaera](https://images.evetech.net/characters/303337139/portrait?size=64)
Lowanaera
Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.26 21:06:00 -
[113]
Originally by: RtoZ Edited by: RtoZ on 25/08/2007 15:52:34 With a big enough fleet it should be possible to kill one in lowsec if I read this thread right...
But it won't be a gank, it would be a fleet op. The steps required are the following:
And where's the part of your plan that stops it from laughing at your fleet, warping to a safe, and cloaking?
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![7shining7one7 7shining7one7](https://images.evetech.net/characters/102891953/portrait?size=64)
7shining7one7
Quafe Paladins
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Posted - 2007.08.27 00:27:00 -
[114]
ideas forwarded to suggestions forum, please support if you feel something must be done.
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![umop 3pisdn umop 3pisdn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/950028901/portrait?size=64)
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.08.27 00:42:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Minmatar096773 No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip.
lol @ rells...
and now that they arent hard to kill in 0.0 as of Tuesday, we're only a few months of *****ing and whinging away from a low sec nerf of some kind... they will probably get relegated to 0.0 only with a storyline justification....
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![Deva Blackfire Deva Blackfire](https://images.evetech.net/characters/167537438/portrait?size=64)
Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.27 00:42:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 27/08/2007 00:42:31 nvm :) 3 more pages to read ;p
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![vile56 vile56](https://images.evetech.net/characters/142869688/portrait?size=64)
vile56
Nubs. D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.27 01:41:00 -
[117]
so... you want the ms to be abel to die in lowsec. well if we go the they can be bubbled/scrammed route, by 1 ship, then he would be stupid for not haveing scouts/support around. correct?
so the support ships would hear from the scouts 50 man fleet 1 jump out and he would cyno out(whos fault is this?) lets say they dont see the 50 man fleet they see local riseing and cynos poping up they focus all energy on killing the tacklers, which they do and he jumps out (whos fault is this?)
its more of the pilot not being stupid instead of a omghax ship. he can cyno on a whim whenever he wants and if cap ships can be scramed damped ect then it will be a alliance op of 2-3 scouts per system. once again not the ships fault. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected]) |
![RtoZ RtoZ](https://images.evetech.net/characters/921293604/portrait?size=64)
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:22:00 -
[118]
The part where it has no cap... I never said it was easy though, I fully realise the task it is to organise a fleet, bait the mothership and be lucky enough for the timing to be good enough to get rid of all his cap in one pass and still have surplass people to keep it there as he fights back. It is pretty improbable, even with all the people assembled it's probably a less than 10% chance of success, then there is lag issues... but the mothership does have to run, because he knows if he stays just a bit too long he will die, and those things are slooow. Try and get the bait to bump him around a bit to mess up the warp outs and have people organised so if he warps to a system object people warp in at all distances so he dosen't get away easily.
But yes, pretty remote chance, I will agree to that. Impossible? Well, It's possible under the current game design, hypothetically, I'll let the people who actually command fleets debate on whether it is possible in reality or possibly come up with some other approach...
Also ask yourselves this, if you allow these things to be scrambled in low sec don't they become just a tad easy?
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![Wigglytuff Wigglytuff](https://images.evetech.net/characters/180966455/portrait?size=64)
Wigglytuff
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:29:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship)
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
Its not a matter of power; motherships are not solo-pwnmobiles and they never will be. Its a matter of value. If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die. Else, if we follow what you're suggesting, all the motherships will be blown to hell and back within a week, and no one will buy new ones because they are a waste of money.
Once again, more expensive = harder to die.
A Raven costs more than 10x as much as a Caracal, are you telling me the Raven should be able to take down 10 caracals ?
Or that a Megathron should be able to take on a dozen Thoraxes?![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
SO by your logic it should be 15-20x harder to kill a MS than a dread or Carrier, and 2-3x as hard to kill a Titan as a MS.
The MS problem is due to a flaw in CCP's planning, or they honestly think it makes sense, in which case they're just being silly. However bubbles in lowsec is a bad idea unless sentries kill them, and even then, the day bubbles work in lwsec is the day lowsec is dead.![Razz](/images/icon_razz.gif)
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![Hyuuga Veralis Hyuuga Veralis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/177364637/portrait?size=64)
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:40:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Hayah Theos Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:16:45 Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:10:43 Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:09:32
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos Now if only they could be honest enough to embrace the fact that the economic resource distribution in the game is fatally flawed too. I mean, just how is it that ANY new force in the game will ever be able to compete with established zero alliances? (And by new, I mean anyone other than the BORG). From reading this thread it is obvious that those here seem to think 25 billion isk is "chump change". How out of touch with reality these veterans are. I am sure it is the BORG's reality, since they have the major resource points of the game in their hip pocket. Eve needs serious game model resource rebalancing or it is doomed to become a shrinking "veteran's only" playpen.
Old I am. Out of touch I am not. 100M a day is easy. 1B a week is doable if you're hardcore, with less than 6M skill points. Heck you could do it with much less than that SP wise but it would take more work to get up to that level.
Those numbers are completely engine money. Created out of nothing. Not dependent on other players in any way. Risking nothing more than a shuttle. Courier mission revamp, lp store, and R&D are all newer and very lucrative. The "BORG" didn't have access to them. Granted the R&D cash is player dependent but it's just icing on the cake. Something to do while you raise massive faction to exploit.
Remember kids it doesn't matter what your corp standing is as long as their faction loves you.
******************* Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve. Then tell us all about how you don't have a death-grip on 10/10 Complexes...
You people are so transparent and self-serving. Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
Can run a lvl 4 GE in about 2 hours, maybe less, using a Nighthawk. It's faster on a Raven due to higher DPS, and a GE 4 is 25-30mil isk. Massive Attack and Assault are an easy 10-15million in an hour. If you're pulling 5k or more LP for those 'top end' missions, then that's an extra several million per mission due to what you can get to sell.
100m a day is more than possible for a person who runs missions heavily every day, or mines even a mid-level ore like Omber or Kernite in a barge or BS with maybe a hauler alt, or a hauler of their own with good cargo space (12k+). Use secure containers, and thieves are a non-issue. Trading, well, grab a freighter, hit one of the nice empire routes and make over 100m easily, but you need a few billion to begin with.
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![Hyuuga Veralis Hyuuga Veralis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/177364637/portrait?size=64)
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:49:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve. Then tell us all about how you don't have a death-grip on 10/10 Complexes...
You people are so transparent and self-serving. Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
Idiot. Did you miss the part where I said less than 6M SP? Did you miss the part where I said using only a shuttle. Both those points mean that T2 BPO or Capital ships are not needed. 10/10 complexes? No one farms those anymore. CCP nerfed them. Please try and know something about the game.
As for how. I already told you. I'll use smaller words. Lvl 4 courier missions pay 2.7M a mission. You can do them in a shuttle. No skills needed. Nothing ever risked. isk is free. Anyone can be "rich".
************** 100 million a day divided by 2.7 million per mission is about 37 missions per day to do that.... Simple math betrays you. I'm not sure anyone reading this believes you. Unless you have multiple accounts to do nothing but run Courier missions, which sounds very much like an exploit to me.
If a courier mission has you moving 6 jumps, you can cover that in what, 10 minutes total, if that, in a shuttle, both ways?
10*37 = 370, just over 6 hours. Now you'll have quite a few LP as well, so lets not ignore that in the isk factoring.
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:51:00 -
[122]
Originally by: RtoZ The part where it has no cap... I never said it was easy though, I fully realise the task it is to organise a fleet, bait the mothership and be lucky enough for the timing to be good enough to get rid of all his cap in one pass and still have surplass people to keep it there as he fights back. It is pretty improbable, even with all the people assembled it's probably a less than 10% chance of success, then there is lag issues... but the mothership does have to run, because he knows if he stays just a bit too long he will die, and those things are slooow. Try and get the bait to bump him around a bit to mess up the warp outs and have people organised so if he warps to a system object people warp in at all distances so he dosen't get away easily.
But yes, pretty remote chance, I will agree to that. Impossible? Well, It's possible under the current game design, hypothetically, I'll let the people who actually command fleets debate on whether it is possible in reality or possibly come up with some other approach...
Also ask yourselves this, if you allow these things to be scrambled in low sec don't they become just a tad easy?
Keep saying that I have plenty of these to go around
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![Hyuuga Veralis Hyuuga Veralis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/177364637/portrait?size=64)
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.08.27 03:07:00 -
[123]
Originally by: umop 3pisdn
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Minmatar096773 No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip.
lol @ rells...
and now that they arent hard to kill in 0.0 as of Tuesday, we're only a few months of *****ing and whinging away from a low sec nerf of some kind... they will probably get relegated to 0.0 only with a storyline justification....
Considering that flying a supercap in lowsec empire would be like China doing manuvers between Hawaii and the US mainland, I think it'd be justified for the Empires to send capital strikeforces to wtfpwn a supercap that enters lowsec.![Wink](/images/icon_wink.gif)
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.27 03:35:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis
Originally by: umop 3pisdn
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Minmatar096773 No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip.
lol @ rells...
and now that they arent hard to kill in 0.0 as of Tuesday, we're only a few months of *****ing and whinging away from a low sec nerf of some kind... they will probably get relegated to 0.0 only with a storyline justification....
Considering that flying a supercap in lowsec empire would be like China doing manuvers between Hawaii and the US mainland, I think it'd be justified for the Empires to send capital strikeforces to wtfpwn a supercap that enters lowsec.![Wink](/images/icon_wink.gif)
These semi-role playing arguments being used are quite strange
They pop up in threads like these another example would be the removal of local. People would semi rp on why it should stay.
But the thing is if your going to make a play at EVE realisim you've got to go through with it all the way and not just when its convenient
*snip* Your signature was removed for being inappropriate. Please email [email protected] with a link to your signature graphic if you have questions. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
![xeom xeom](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1102545708/portrait?size=64)
xeom
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.27 03:40:00 -
[125]
I haven't read the post,just the op.But It's a rells so post so I'm just going to say.
Rells is always right,CCP could only dream of having him as a employee. And he is in fact the best PvPer ever.No questions asked you should always bow to Rells.
PS:Pay him to teach you how to PvP.Really you could never learn this alone.
---
-Videos- Viciously Delicious
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.27 05:07:00 -
[126]
Originally by: xeom I haven't read the post,just the op.But It's a rells so post so I'm just going to say.
Rells is always right,CCP could only dream of having him as a employee. And he is in fact the best PvPer ever.No questions asked you should always bow to Rells.
PS:Pay him to teach you how to PvP.Really you could never learn this alone.
Sarcasm Senses Tingling! *snip* Your signature was removed for being inappropriate. Please email [email protected] with a link to your signature graphic if you have questions. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
![Karlemgne Karlemgne](https://images.evetech.net/characters/761471942/portrait?size=64)
Karlemgne
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.08.27 06:03:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Kaar you should be able to kill them with a destroyer gang!
LMAO!
-Karl
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![Karlemgne Karlemgne](https://images.evetech.net/characters/761471942/portrait?size=64)
Karlemgne
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.08.27 06:13:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship)
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
Its not a matter of power; motherships are not solo-pwnmobiles and they never will be. Its a matter of value. If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die. Else, if we follow what you're suggesting, all the motherships will be blown to hell and back within a week, and no one will buy new ones because they are a waste of money.
Once again, more expensive = harder to die.
Right, so if I buy a Navy Raven, which is 10x the value of a regular Raven, I should be able to tank 10 Battleships simultaneously.
-Karlemgne
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![Rells Rells](https://images.evetech.net/characters/895729998/portrait?size=64)
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.27 06:16:00 -
[129]
Pointless smacktalk aside, the assertion that the MS can be killed in lowsec is paently false. The pilot would have to be extremely stupid or totally desynched. Sending in thousands of people to create a wreck pile or needing to bump them with dreads is idiotic. Having to explot lag or desynch a pilot to kill him is a broken mechanic.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
![hellsknights hellsknights](https://images.evetech.net/characters/139939902/portrait?size=64)
hellsknights
Hells Angels Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.27 06:30:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Kruel It is a bit silly that you must resort to bumping a MS in lowsec to even have a chance of killing it...
But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain.
I personally don't care....BTW try bumping a MS you will be dead in a matter of seconds.. so it's not a real option.
recruitment thread Join channel Hells Angels Inc
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![Karlemgne Karlemgne](https://images.evetech.net/characters/761471942/portrait?size=64)
Karlemgne
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.08.27 06:37:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Originally by: Rells Tunak: I like your style. Poeple using emotional arguments and you nuking them. ... Anyway.
The motherships would not all be blown up in a week. They might have to travel with a fleet and have force protection like a Nimitz Class carrier in real life. They will have to decide whether to engage or warp away before the enemy gets there, not just simply say "ya, Ill engage a few and if I get low, I will just jump." They would have to think about whether or not they are willing to get warp scrambled or not. They would lose their status as solo pwnmobiles (which is probably the reason for the plethora of obvious alts posting on the thread.) The motherships would still be very powerful, they would just be susceptible to warp scramblers and so should titans.
The reality is that neutralizing enough cap to prevent a cyno jump would take a ton of dedicated neutrlaizing battleships. The base cap on a Wyvern, for example, is 63, 750. With rational engineering skills that will be well over 100,000. Someone just run the numbers for giggles, I would be interested to hear it. Also run the numbers of how many heavy energy neuts (assuming the BS also is running his own cap down) it would take to prevent it from jumping and ask how much time it would take and why the pilot wouldn just jump before it got there. How many would it take to neut it below cyno level on the first try and wh wouldnt the MS just passively tank, kill a few and jump.
People asserting they can be killed are either stupid or lieing. Pick one.
If you are going to compare a Mothership to a Nimitz... the Nimitz is a force on it's own, there's no way to sink it and it has on board weapons that autonomously engage incoming threats... so lets give motherships capital sized defender missiles ![YARRRR!!](/images/icon_pirate.gif)
Also the Nimitz is more of a titan... it boosts the fleet around it and assigns targets ![Idea](/images/icon_idea.gif)
Motherships are fine as is.... get smarter ![ugh](/images/icon_bear.gif)
That's a bunch of crap, I don't care what your drill instructor told you.
If the Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier were "force(s)" on their own, they would require an incredibly large support fleet... a fleet who's purpose is largely anti-missile defense.
Those on-board anti-missile systems you are talking about, friend, are designed for the "oh-**** something made it through the anti-missile barrier."
-Karlemgne
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![Hugh Ruka Hugh Ruka](https://images.evetech.net/characters/669787034/portrait?size=64)
Hugh Ruka
Caldari Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.27 07:22:00 -
[132]
Bubbles in lowsec is a VERY BAD IDEA...
So the only option we have is to not allowing SUPER CAPITAL SHIPS to enter lowsec.
Regular capitals (dread, carrier) are A-OK in lowsec. SUPER CAPS are NOT !!!
easy as dell ...
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...![Sad](/images/icon_sad.gif)
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![Auron Shadowbane Auron Shadowbane](https://images.evetech.net/characters/712023900/portrait?size=64)
Auron Shadowbane
Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e
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Posted - 2007.08.27 08:43:00 -
[133]
only real solution would be to ban supercaps from zerosec.
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![Cornucopian Cornucopian](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1493768468/portrait?size=64)
Cornucopian
Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.27 11:33:00 -
[134]
less talk about motherships, more about 2.7m for shuttle courier missions. agents, corps, and numbers. NOW. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." |
![Laah T'Sin Laah T'Sin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/197974100/portrait?size=64)
Laah T'Sin
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Posted - 2007.08.27 11:39:00 -
[135]
Quote: The solution is simple. Make Motherships and Titans affected by warp disruptors and webbers. They would still be very powerful ships but they would not be solo pwnmobiles.
I agree. Give the mothership a +5 (or something) Warp Strenght Bonus (like the Viator) so it's still uber but not invul and totally iwin the way it is now in lowsec.
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![KHEN KHEN](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1130146437/portrait?size=64)
KHEN
New Horizons
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Posted - 2007.08.27 12:18:00 -
[136]
Edited by: KHEN on 27/08/2007 12:19:45 Edited by: KHEN on 27/08/2007 12:19:05
Well, because a peep lost a shuttle and a clone, Motherships must be nerfed. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) I'm tired to see game mechanics change stupidly because thousands of whines sounded for months. Then the same whiners came back to yell about the new game mechanics (i.e. : nosferatus, blob & bombers, POS warfare, speed nerfs). I agree that the immunity to disruption is not fair in low sec, but should EVE be fair ? There are lame players who like to abuse of their advantages, like there are silly drivers. Should the cars be nerfed to 80mph max speed because of them ? Yes Motherships are unfair. Instead of wasting your time whining here, you'd better find a way to deal with that. I'm pretty sure that if it can't easily be destroyed, the pilot can be considerably scared by seeing a small fleet of dreads and carriers w triage jumping in and MWD BSes starting to bump the MS. If one can afford a MS, you should be able to gather 3-4 carriers and one or two dreads aren't you ?
I don't care about loosing a MS in low-sec but I don't want to see the most beautiful ships in EVE nerfed because of repeated whines
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![Empyre Empyre](https://images.evetech.net/characters/716163410/portrait?size=64)
Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2007.08.27 12:54:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Gnulpie I wrote it already several times and I write it again:
no supercapital should be allowed in empire space!
amen. anyone who has ever tried to take down a MS with battleships i'm sure will say the same.
Please stop messing with my signature!!! |
![Tenerhaddi Tenerhaddi](https://images.evetech.net/characters/325565812/portrait?size=64)
Tenerhaddi
Dark Skyes
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Posted - 2007.08.27 13:46:00 -
[138]
The ibis of doom will kill it! its simple! fleet of ibis attacking it. Then the MS pilot dies laughing so much at the inbis and then bring BS to kill it :) ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif) ----------------
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556
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![SSgt Sniper SSgt Sniper](https://images.evetech.net/characters/760699458/portrait?size=64)
SSgt Sniper
Gallente MAIDS
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Posted - 2007.08.27 16:20:00 -
[139]
Edited by: SSgt Sniper on 27/08/2007 16:23:20
Originally by: Imperius Blackheart
A few neuts, or at the moment nos... nothing is "unkillable" in lowsec, you just need some organisation and planning. A group of around 12 remote repping BS should be able to kill a momma in low sec.
Let's rephrase that to read you can run off a mom in lowsec with planning. Officer cap chargers and tech II cap rigs means he'll have cap on a level to jump out long before he has problems. And the big gripe is the inability to stop them from jumping out. One of the reasons I think interdictor bubbles (not anchorable ones) should be reconsidered for lowsec, and fighters should be warp scramble-able.
This keeping in mind I prefer buffs over nerfs. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.
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![Cpt Branko Cpt Branko](https://images.evetech.net/characters/855196224/portrait?size=64)
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.08.27 16:39:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/08/2007 16:44:02
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Its not a matter of power; motherships are not solo-pwnmobiles and they never will be. Its a matter of value. If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die. Else, if we follow what you're suggesting, all the motherships will be blown to hell and back within a week, and no one will buy new ones because they are a waste of money.
Once again, more expensive = harder to die.
You just have no idea, i'm afraid.
Let's see - your average T2 fit fully rigged solo-pwn-mobile tier 3 battleship: 200-250M. 6 jerks in T2 fitted rifters with e-war fitted: 12-15M Watching battleship die miserably without ever getting a target lock: priceless.
With everything smaller then capitals, the number of pilots plays a significant role in combat, and flying a 200-500M ship solo does not make you invincible, even if your foes have only 10% of your funds.
Anyway, we can expect the number of MS to increase, and with no losses taken in low-sec, well, the problem is not exactly going to go away. The best thing i've heard so far is giving it a warp strenght of +20-50, so it takes a number of ships to lock it down.
Edit: bubbles in low-sec are a moronic idea. It'd be a huge nerf for small corps and solo-ers in low-sec. Increasing the risk (without increasing the potential profits of low-sec) would drive a good part of the people out. It's not like it's crowded already...
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
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![KtB KtB](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1002864273/portrait?size=64)
KtB
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.08.27 16:39:00 -
[141]
It's a 15bill+ isk ship. I think it needs to be MORE invincible for that price..
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![Del Narveux Del Narveux](https://images.evetech.net/characters/962942794/portrait?size=64)
Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2007.08.27 16:48:00 -
[142]
How about a compromise, supercaps can go into lowsec empire, and maybe even highsec too, for the purpose of stashing them from prying eyes. But if they aggro on anything in empire space, even a valid war target unless the supercap was shot at first then a totally uber concord shows up and annihalates it. I agree with the OP, its just not fair that a ship whose primary counters have 0.0 restrictions is allowed to do its thing in lowsec. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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![Princess Jodi Princess Jodi](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1443369776/portrait?size=64)
Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.27 16:57:00 -
[143]
No, don't make Motherships succeptible by letting them get scrammmbed.
Look at it this way: You've got 35+ Billion isk worth of ship. For that price, you get only about double the damage of a 2.5 Billion isk carrier. The remaining 30 Billion in cost is basically the immunity to Electronic Warfare.
So: you wanna kill a Mothership in low sec? Take 35 Billion isk worth of ships and you'll alpha strike it. Or just kill off its fighters: A full wing of 20 or so fighters is a half a billion isk in cost.
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![muhajai muhajai](https://images.evetech.net/characters/767272574/portrait?size=64)
muhajai
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Posted - 2007.08.27 17:11:00 -
[144]
very interesting and a topic i have given thought too. in my opinion banning super caps from low-sec especially mom's is absurd (since they are a logistic's ship ) they need low-sec access too move bs's and supplies i think the best solution too this exploit by mom pilots would be too simply bann smart bombs in emire space just like the interdictor bubbles are at the moment my two cents and first forum post. hopefully my last
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![Karlemgne Karlemgne](https://images.evetech.net/characters/761471942/portrait?size=64)
Karlemgne
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.08.27 17:45:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Princess Jodi No, don't make Motherships succeptible by letting them get scrammmbed.
Look at it this way: You've got 35+ Billion isk worth of ship. For that price, you get only about double the damage of a 2.5 Billion isk carrier. The remaining 30 Billion in cost is basically the immunity to Electronic Warfare.
So: you wanna kill a Mothership in low sec? Take 35 Billion isk worth of ships and you'll alpha strike it. Or just kill off its fighters: A full wing of 20 or so fighters is a half a billion isk in cost.
Again, alright. So game mechanics should be changed so that my Navy Raven, which is 10x more expensive than a regular BS, can tank (again) 10 Battleships simultaneously.
Further, they should deal 10x the damage of a regular Battleship, OR we need my calculator that determines the isk value of my ship + fittings, and gives me scaling invulnerability depending on the cost of my ship.
So once my ship hits 10 billion, no matter what it is, I should be immune to ewar and scrambling.
On a more serious note, 0.0 dweller, I don't think you comprehend the problem. MoMs camping gates in low-sec are un-killable.
Further MoMs give logistical advantages that regular carriers don't, the price tag is NOT just about immunity to ewar.
My personal feeling is they should be kept out of low-sec, period.
-Karlemgne
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![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.27 18:39:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Afther your opening phrases any argument you use has lost any value. "isk is free" my *****.
If your isk are soo free equip your whole corporation in officer gear and nuke that mom.
"ISK is free." does not mean everyone gets unlimited isk.
Anyone can acquire large amounts of isk. Only 1 person needed. No character skills are needed. No player skills are needed. No starting cash needed. No risk is involved. It's literally hit the button and receive isk. The only limiting factor to one's wallet is play time. isk gained is directly proportional to the effort you put in. There are literally _no_ external factors that can limit isk acquisition.
Therefore accumulating large amounts of isk is not an accomplishment. Therefore the cost of a ship cannot have any correlation to powerlevel. That's my point in regards to this thread.
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![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.27 18:43:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Hayah Theos
************** 100 million a day divided by 2.7 million per mission is about 37 missions per day to do that.... Simple math betrays you. I'm not sure anyone reading this believes you. Unless you have multiple accounts to do nothing but run Courier missions, which sounds very much like an exploit to me.
Yeah that sounds right. To do 37 in 6 hours you would have 9.7 minutes per mission. Plenty of time to go 6 hops in a shuttle.
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![Hugh Ruka Hugh Ruka](https://images.evetech.net/characters/669787034/portrait?size=64)
Hugh Ruka
Caldari Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.27 18:55:00 -
[148]
WTB Invincible Rifter for 35bn ISK.
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...![Sad](/images/icon_sad.gif)
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![Hayah Theos Hayah Theos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/736990350/portrait?size=64)
Hayah Theos
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:27:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Hayah Theos on 27/08/2007 19:31:54
Originally by: Tunak Edited by: Tunak on 27/08/2007 18:48:17
Originally by: Hayah Theos
************** 100 million a day divided by 2.7 million per mission is about 37 missions per day to do that.... Simple math betrays you. I'm not sure anyone reading this believes you. Unless you have multiple accounts to do nothing but run Courier missions, which sounds very much like an exploit to me.
Yeah that sounds right. To do 37 in 6 hours you would have 9.7 minutes per mission. Plenty of time to go 6 hops in a shuttle.
EDIT: Sorry for the redundant post. Didn't see someone else come to my defense.
********************** So you believe the part about 2.7 million isk per courier mission in HIGH-SEC?..... and if you are spending 6 hours a day to do it (assuming there is a 2.7 million paying agent) when do you do anything else?
6 hours to play 15 minutes and get podded by a Mom in low sec?? Sounds like fun to me.... not! Real accomplishment by the BORG who make 2.2 billion per day on ONE PLUTONIUM RUN!!..... NOT!!!
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![Aziz Hekato Aziz Hekato](https://images.evetech.net/characters/401594983/portrait?size=64)
Aziz Hekato
Minmatar Vitai Lampada
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:36:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Minmatar096773 No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip.
His one of those m8.. read my sigg. ![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif)
____ Entering the Intergalactic Summit forum is like walking into a Startrek convention. All of them are a bunch of geeks and you go "WTF?". |
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![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:38:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Hayah Theos incoherent offtopic babble
I've calmly responded to your posts. I shouldn't have. I have to remember to not feed the trolls.
Until you have something constructive, *plonk*.
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![Voodoo'sMother Voodoo'sMother](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1326510008/portrait?size=64)
Voodoo'sMother
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:43:00 -
[152]
Its only a matter of time before low sec moms get nerfed. Imho
And when it does I hope they all get killed by the people who killed Hera.
---------------------------------------------------
Yeah I typo- So what. |
![RtoZ RtoZ](https://images.evetech.net/characters/921293604/portrait?size=64)
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.28 01:15:00 -
[153]
Well, if it is deemed necessary to make motherships more killable, and do note I never really debated gamebalance here, just the feasability of a lowsec momship kill, I think the best solution, both for moms and caps is to make them scramable, but with very high points, as has been mentioned. If you need say 25 ships to scramble a mothership it becomes difficult but more plausible. A larger fleet should be necessary for a titan... This would be a matter for ccp to think about, but then supercaps would instantly become blob magnets. Personally I would rather keep lowsec less laggy, but what the hell, eh?
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![F90OEX F90OEX](https://images.evetech.net/characters/320162478/portrait?size=64)
F90OEX
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Posted - 2007.08.28 02:55:00 -
[154]
When was the last time a MS was killed in Low-sec space....
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![Karlemgne Karlemgne](https://images.evetech.net/characters/761471942/portrait?size=64)
Karlemgne
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:43:00 -
[155]
Originally by: F90OEX When was the last time a MS was killed in Low-sec space....
Uh... never.
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![Shar'Tuk TheHated Shar'Tuk TheHated](https://images.evetech.net/characters/325772332/portrait?size=64)
Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:47:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Originally by: F90OEX When was the last time a MS was killed in Low-sec space....
Uh... never.
I killed one mere seconds ago. No.. really. Wait.. nope.. no I did not as its practically impossible! Mom in low sec is just a HUGE Carebear Mobile tbh. ![Smile](/images/icon_smile.gif)
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.28 07:20:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated
Originally by: Karlemgne
Originally by: F90OEX When was the last time a MS was killed in Low-sec space....
Uh... never.
I killed one mere seconds ago. No.. really. Wait.. nope.. no I did not as its practically impossible! Mom in low sec is just a HUGE Carebear Mobile tbh. ![Smile](/images/icon_smile.gif)
No no Carebear is the mindset that pvp = rape
Lowsec moms= screw this im outta here keep the fighters
Local Thread 107-b |
![FireFoxx80 FireFoxx80](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1045747895/portrait?size=64)
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.28 10:03:00 -
[158]
I tend to agree, supercapitals (titans/motherships) really shouldn't have offensive capability in low-sec (0.1-0.4).
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
![Doxs Roxs Doxs Roxs](https://images.evetech.net/characters/954147833/portrait?size=64)
Doxs Roxs
White Wolves Defence league The OSS
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Posted - 2007.08.28 10:07:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 19:35:50 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:27:00 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:25:24 I got to thinking about this last night when a corp mate got blown up by a smartbombing mothership in lowsec. The corp mate only lost a shuttle and his clone, no implants so he laughed but the discussion started around the incident. We basically came to the conclusion that it was nearly impossible to kill a mothership in lowsec. It is, an unkillable weapon and when used by pirates, an immense edge on others. Now dont get me wrong, Im not anti-pirate or anti-pvp by far. I just think invincible "I win" buttons are not healthy for eve.
In lowsec you cant bubble the mothership or tackle it because it is immune to ewar. You cant scramble it or hold it or damp or jam it. You cant web it or stop it in any way. In addition, you cant stop the fighters, they warp out of bubbles, cant be warp scrambled, and are immune to damps and ECM. It begs the question of how you kill the bloody thing. Well first of all you will need to get a bubble on it because if you cant hold it then it will just warp away. CCP once proposed that you "bump it with a bunch of dreads" but that is patently rediculous. First of all a dread not do so much damage over a BS when out of siege mode and when they are in siege mode, they cant move at all. And lets face it, a dread is not exactly speedy out of siege mode. But hey, lets assume I get enough BS in the system to bump the guy ... WHOOOOOSH ... "what happened?" ... "oh ... he Cynoed out". The fact that wrecks and corpses will soon be immaterial means you cant even surround it with corps piles to try and keep it from aligning (the way goonfleet killed a mothership) The fact is you cant deploy bubbles in lowsec so you cant stop him from cynoing or warping. Even with interdiction bubbles in 0.0 you have are going to have to be a lot of them because the mothership will have faction or officer smartbombs and be radiating out from the MODEL, not the center of the ship.
So ... how many battleships does it take to alphastrike a mothership again?
This is just stupidly rediculous and it burns me that CCP is making changes that are nerfing people right and left when the things that REALLY need nerfage are being buffed and made even more unkillable. I wonder how long it is before there are camps of 10 motherships on lowsec chokes messing up the game.
The solution is simple. Make Motherships and Titans affected by warp disruptors and webbers. They would still be very powerful ships but they would not be solo pwnmobiles.
Although Eve is the best MMOG out there, I sometimes wonder how development priorities are set. EVERYTHING should be killable. THere should be no "i win" buttons in eve.
I an only agree, below is a quote from another post I made a while back.
Originally by: Doxs Giving titans and motherships near invulnerability in low sec is just plain stupid.
A simple solution would be to change their warp scramble immunity to a blockade runner style bonus. But instead of +2 they could get something like +30 or maybe even +50-60 (or higher, whatever is deemed balanced).
In addition to this a capital warp scrambler should be added, give it a scramble strength of 10 or something (same here, exact figures have to be balanced).
Thus, if you have a large fleet or 5-6 dreads you could lock a mothership or a titan down. They would no longer be near invulnerable. Meanwhile the super capitals are not overly nerfed, they would still be very hard to catch, ensuring you do get value for your isk spent on it.
Regards /Doxs
After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead... |
![KHEN KHEN](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1130146437/portrait?size=64)
KHEN
New Horizons
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Posted - 2007.08.28 11:18:00 -
[160]
Edited by: KHEN on 28/08/2007 11:23:42
From what I read here, I see that there is a misunderstanding :
If I say that my Mothership will be camping a gate in a said low-sec-system tomorrow, from 19:00 to 20:00 EVT, I'm pretty sure that I'll see a nice fleet coming to try to kill it. I'm almost sure that it will be killed because hostiles will be well prepared and organized. That to demonstrate that the ship is killable.
Now the whines that I read here are about a ship that would be "unkillable". What should I conclude ? That people don't want to plan and organize for an event that might not come, because it is a load of preparation and isks for something that might never occur. (what about a bait then ?)
Then people want to be able to kill the best ship class in game but with no particular preparation, just on a lucky dip. They just want an easy kill, no matter what the ship costs to fit decently, no matter of the weaknesses of the ship. (if you want to know which they are, purchase a MS, fit it, then see)
Nevertheless I agree that with numbers MS camps in low-sec will be a problem. From my pov the solution is not to ban supercapitals from low, but to increase greatly the vulnerabilty to sentry fire for supercapitals (include Neutralizers ?), or even make the gate itself warp/jump scrambling the ship for a short while (10 minutes ?). Or even involve randomly some concord capital keepers (kidding here ofc :) )
Another idea which sounded good was to give supercaps a finite number of warp strenght, 20-50 points range (?)
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![Needo Needo](https://images.evetech.net/characters/190704222/portrait?size=64)
Needo
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:59:00 -
[161]
I just returned from not playing for ~3 years so if these ideas are completely off, please say so politely. :) I know little about current mechanics to be honest... but.
Could this package -> fun gameplay?
* cyno has a max range of 5-10 gates * cyno cannot be scrambled by any means at all * once cyno is activated, it takes 2-3 minutes before jumping, displays cyno field animation * there is a module you can use on cyno-field that reveals the destination system without delay * there is a captial warp scrambler that only fits dictors and only scrambles warp but leaves cyno intact
Effects:
* you cannot insta-drop capitals in fights, and no captial-drop-ganks. you would have to deploy them with a 2-3 min delay * if a MS wants to cyno escape it will take 2-3 minutes and during this time there is a window for the attacking fleet to hunt down and destroy the remote cyno-ship -> cancelled jump * you can scramble MS in lowsec with dictors, but there is still the cyno-escape (which can be countered if organized)
Based on guesses and from reading posts here. Anything useful? ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
___________________________________________
You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________ |
![DarkStar251 DarkStar251](https://images.evetech.net/characters/148439255/portrait?size=64)
DarkStar251
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:17:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden Its not a matter of power; motherships are not solo-pwnmobiles and they never will be. Its a matter of value. If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die.
Oh yeah! Thats why my Abaddon can safely take on 100 tech one frigates and change while being completely invulnerable!
Wait....
Cheap ships kill expensive ships all the time in EVE. In this case, 5 dreads (2.5b each at least including fittings) and 20 BSes (probably and average of 180m including fittings, given that there will be some tier 3s in there), a total of 16.1b isk, not far under the cost of the Mothership, should stand a pretty good chance of killing a MS, and indeed would with bubbles in 0.0.
Right now in lowsec? It either warps away or Cynos out. Invulnerable.
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![Cpt Branko Cpt Branko](https://images.evetech.net/characters/855196224/portrait?size=64)
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:29:00 -
[163]
Originally by: KHEN
...we're going to try to kill a MOM in low-sec...
Proof of stfu.
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
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![Radioactive Babe Radioactive Babe](https://images.evetech.net/characters/131756369/portrait?size=64)
Radioactive Babe
Red Frost
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:27:00 -
[164]
Keep it simple, the most viable answer to Moms in lowsec was already mentioned *dun dun dunnnnn* ban smartbombs from 0.1 - 1.0 space. Its not like anyone uses them much anyway![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif)
With 20 frigs bumping it and 20 bs's with neuts on it (10 of them giving a neut alpha strike and the others stepping in every couple of seconds counteract recharge) it should have a hard time. Maybe another 10 - 15 sniper BS's to take out the fighters.
As for people saying they paid anywhere from 15 to 45 bil for their solopwnmobile .....tough. Use it in 0.0 like it was designed for ya pussies. |
![Princess Jodi Princess Jodi](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1443369776/portrait?size=64)
Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:35:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Karlemgne Again, alright. So game mechanics should be changed so that my Navy Raven, which is 10x more expensive than a regular BS, can tank (again) 10 Battleships simultaneously.
-Karlemgne
Your Navy Raven is not 10x the price of a regular BS - you're just willing to pay 10x the normal price. If it pops, you don't get 10x the insurance money. That is a bad example because you are using a rare factional item.
To be fairer to your example, I can see reducing the estimated cost of the Mothership to about 20-25 billion, because the 35 billion figure does include Officer gear.
All I was saying is that you need to put up comparable amounts of isk to be able to claim anything about the Motherships being overpowered. For 20 billion, you can get about 200 T1 Battleships. That amount of firepower would melt a Mom in a single volley.
If you don't have 200 Battleships, how can you complain about the Mom being overpowered? That would be a fair fight Isk-wise, yet the Mom wouldn't stand a chance.
It seems the OP wants to be able to kill about 1000 times the ship value as he puts on the line. That's not realistic. People get hung up on the fact that its a single ship, so think its overpowered. Personally, I'd rather take 200 Battleships out on a rampage than a single Mothership.
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![RtoZ RtoZ](https://images.evetech.net/characters/921293604/portrait?size=64)
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:59:00 -
[166]
Edited by: RtoZ on 28/08/2007 15:00:15 Well said princess jodi. The fact that the eve engine allows damage accumulation means that any ship dies under enough firepower, so no ship is by definition unkillable. It's just a case of probability, which for the mothership class is low in low-sec, but considering what these things are, how much they cost, their own little caveats and the numbers of them active atm I don't see the situation being too bad yet. And if it is too bad, and repeating myself and others, I think a high warp scramble strength is the solution.
And to repeat myself again: these are massively expensive and slow ships which have shorter jump ranges than carriers and are very slow to align. They have huge signatures. It is pretty easy to break the mechanics of motherships and turn them into suicide ships (see: titans). This ship class is the queen of eve (no homosexual insinuation implied at mothership pilots ) and I would dislike it if they got nerfed into uselessness, which is pretty easy to do.
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![Noxic Noxic](https://images.evetech.net/characters/736291839/portrait?size=64)
Noxic
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Posted - 2007.08.28 15:16:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Noxic on 28/08/2007 15:16:52
Originally by: Princess Jodi
Originally by: Karlemgne Again, alright. So game mechanics should be changed so that my Navy Raven, which is 10x more expensive than a regular BS, can tank (again) 10 Battleships simultaneously.
-Karlemgne
Your Navy Raven is not 10x the price of a regular BS - you're just willing to pay 10x the normal price. If it pops, you don't get 10x the insurance money. That is a bad example because you are using a rare factional item.
To be fairer to your example, I can see reducing the estimated cost of the Mothership to about 20-25 billion, because the 35 billion figure does include Officer gear.
All I was saying is that you need to put up comparable amounts of isk to be able to claim anything about the Motherships being overpowered. For 20 billion, you can get about 200 T1 Battleships. That amount of firepower would melt a Mom in a single volley.
If you don't have 200 Battleships, how can you complain about the Mom being overpowered? That would be a fair fight Isk-wise, yet the Mom wouldn't stand a chance.
It seems the OP wants to be able to kill about 1000 times the ship value as he puts on the line. That's not realistic. People get hung up on the fact that its a single ship, so think its overpowered. Personally, I'd rather take 200 Battleships out on a rampage than a single Mothership.
IT TAKES ONE PERSON TO FLY A MOTHERSHIP, HOW MANY PEOPLE GOTTA FLY BS TO KILL THE "I WIN" BUTTON PUSHER? and thats assuming your fighting one mothership and not 3-4...
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![KHEN KHEN](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1130146437/portrait?size=64)
KHEN
New Horizons
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Posted - 2007.08.28 16:52:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: KHEN
...we're going to try to kill a MOM in low-sec...
Proof of stfu.
Sorry sir, but I never wrote that sentence, nowhere, check you sources
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![Minmatar096773 Minmatar096773](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1278567693/portrait?size=64)
Minmatar096773
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Posted - 2007.08.31 10:02:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Noxic
IT TAKES ONE PERSON TO FLY A MOTHERSHIP, HOW MANY PEOPLE GOTTA FLY BS TO KILL THE "I WIN" BUTTON PUSHER? and thats assuming your fighting one mothership and not 3-4...
It takes one person to use CAPSLOCK. How many people need to kill the "I WIN" button pusher? And that is assuming you are fighting one SENTENCE and not 3-4...
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![Sheriff Jones Sheriff Jones](https://images.evetech.net/characters/673085407/portrait?size=64)
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.08.31 10:06:00 -
[170]
Don't know if it's been said, but couldn't a mothership be killed by...TWO motherships? ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have. |
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![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.31 11:56:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Don't know if it's been said, but couldn't a mothership be killed by...TWO motherships? ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
No. Also bumping is in no way a solution. The point that all offered solutions fail to account for is cyno. If a mothership pilot sees 30+ all warp in on him he's not going to be there long enough for you to neut him below 75% cap. He'll be gone in the time it takes to alt tab uncloak pop a cyno and alt tab back. You don't fly a 25B isk ship and then sit around and wonder why local jumped by 30.
The only first step is denying the cyno. Everything must come after that. How do you get, at least, 36 large neuts on a mothership before it leaves?
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![James Lyrus James Lyrus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1172000459/portrait?size=64)
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.31 13:46:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Don't know if it's been said, but couldn't a mothership be killed by...TWO motherships? ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
Actually, no, it can't. They can't stop it leaving, and at best you'll get a standoff as they smartbomb each other's fighters.
The argument about isk = invulnerability is a dumb one. The limiting factor in _any_ fight in EVE is number of pilots. Isks are very much a secondary concern. The fact that you cannot realistically take down a MS in lowsec with a 70 man fleet, is ludicrous.
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![Princess Jodi Princess Jodi](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1443369776/portrait?size=64)
Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.31 13:54:00 -
[173]
It probably took 200 people to raise the money to buy that single 'I-Win' button too. ![Laughing](/images/icon_lol.gif)
Seriously: I've been Mothership-Capable for over a year, and have tried to get the funds for one for almost 2 years. I'm nowhere close. But I bet any alliance could get 200 battleships in a weekend or two of Mining. Try doing that, take your 200 battleships on a romp around Eve, then compare your results to what a single mothership could accomplish.
I think the OP is just jelaous that they don't have a Mothership. I know I am.![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif)
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![asgghsfdgsgsg asgghsfdgsgsg](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1342346019/portrait?size=64)
asgghsfdgsgsg
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:46:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Princess Jodi It probably took 200 people to raise the money to buy that single 'I-Win' button too. ![Laughing](/images/icon_lol.gif)
Seriously: I've been Mothership-Capable for over a year, and have tried to get the funds for one for almost 2 years. I'm nowhere close. But I bet any alliance could get 200 battleships in a weekend or two of Mining. Try doing that, take your 200 battleships on a romp around Eve, then compare your results to what a single mothership could accomplish.
I think the OP is just jelaous that they don't have a Mothership. I know I am.![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif)
Make a powerful business plan and work the markets. Or an even better scam.
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![Badhands Badhands](https://images.evetech.net/characters/699214764/portrait?size=64)
Badhands
Gallente DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:54:00 -
[175]
Invincible ships... you mean docked ships? Because those are the only invincible ships I can think of.
Originally by: Player Guide
Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses.
^^^Stolen from Tarminic^^^ |
![General Apocalypse General Apocalypse](https://images.evetech.net/characters/631288058/portrait?size=64)
General Apocalypse
Amarr The Merchant Marines
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:55:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Badhands Invincible ships... you mean docked ships? Because those are the only invincible ships I can think of.
QFT
Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz
Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:39:00 -
[177]
ok Cost vs Vunlerablity geniuses
I am now flying a Jaguar with 4 estamel's invulnerability fields fitted and nothing else, no weapons, no damage mods.
I demand every ship that comes within 14 AU of me self destructs out of sheer principle
Local Thread 107-b |
![Turin Turin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/146208681/portrait?size=64)
Turin
Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:48:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi Rells. I am glad you bring this subject up. The horrors of mums in low-secs are indeed scary thoughts.
I think CCP should balance the game in the sense that anything bigger than a battleship must be made a 0.0 object. It should be done that people who are looking for fights should be fighting in 0.0 space and people who do not wish to fight can still play freely in high-secs.
Low-secs should be in between i.e. people will at most engage battleships. It would be an intermediary level for people learning to fight and 0.0 would be for crazy hard core players. Only people in 0.0 have the resources to kill mums to be honest.
You would destroy logistics with this. Carriers are the backbone of logistics movements. not allowing a carrier into .4 or below would absolutley destroy logistics for many many many many alliances.
_________________________________
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![Turin Turin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/146208681/portrait?size=64)
Turin
Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:51:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship)
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
TYhats all very nice and all. Its a shame its completley wrong. isk cost IS a measure of a ships power. If it werent. Frigates would cost the same as Battleships right?
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![omiNATION omiNATION](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1179404327/portrait?size=64)
omiNATION
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Posted - 2007.08.31 17:02:00 -
[180]
Easy solution.
Move warp scrambler out of the EW category, or make motherships not immune to them, then give them a +8ish bonus strength to warp jamming.
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.31 17:03:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Turin
TYhats all very nice and all. Its a shame its completley wrong. isk cost IS a measure of a ships power. If it werent. Frigates would cost the same as Battleships right?
Linkage
Local Thread 107-b |
![Cpt Branko Cpt Branko](https://images.evetech.net/characters/855196224/portrait?size=64)
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.08.31 17:03:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Turin
TYhats all very nice and all. Its a shame its completley wrong. isk cost IS a measure of a ships power. If it werent. Frigates would cost the same as Battleships right?
Why does then a tier 3 battleship certainly die to 20 T1 (even T1 fitted) frigs? It's way more expensive then them!
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
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![Maxpie Maxpie](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1260512364/portrait?size=64)
Maxpie
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2007.08.31 17:35:00 -
[183]
Why not make all highslots become automatically remotely deactivated by Concorde whenever a supercap is in empire space and when a cap ship is in high-sec empire. RP reason is concorde security concerns. Upon jumping into 0.0 (or lowsec as the case may be) the modules are returned to their active state.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.31 18:25:00 -
[184]
Half assed role playing arguements are always full of failure there are better ways to deal with this.
*cough* anti capital warp disrupt probes *cough*
Local Thread 107-b |
![Nanobotter Mk2 Nanobotter Mk2](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1751064208/portrait?size=64)
Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.08.31 19:07:00 -
[185]
nerf it I can't run around in cheap throw away pvp ships in big gangs to gank it!
MEanwhile it is okay for cheap invulnerabilty to exists right rells AKA insane speed via implants and fittings that make you near invulnerable.....if you argue to nerf motherships ( which I agree with ) you need to also argue vs all the rediculousness that is every tome **** and hairy being able to hit 12km/s speeds or greater.
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.31 19:32:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 nerf it I can't run around in cheap throw away pvp ships in big gangs to gank it!
MEanwhile it is okay for cheap invulnerabilty to exists right rells AKA insane speed via implants and fittings that make you near invulnerable.....if you argue to nerf motherships ( which I agree with ) you need to also argue vs all the rediculousness that is every tome **** and hairy being able to hit 12km/s speeds or greater.
My tobias/estamels fitted Jaguar can't do **** to a mother ship and it costs waay more than that so **** you and your theory of isk vs risks
Local Thread 107-b |
![Tasuric Orka Tasuric Orka](https://images.evetech.net/characters/629911780/portrait?size=64)
Tasuric Orka
Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.31 20:08:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Tasuric Orka on 31/08/2007 20:10:15 It's pretty rediculous that they have near invulnerability in low sec, and even though i dont think its a huge problem as they dont visit my area, i'd like to see something done so people who do have a big problem whem em don't have to put up with arrogant gankbears floating around in their invulnerable killboard barges and can actually go out and kill them if they so please, without having to resort to dumb luck, opfor stupidity, lag, metagaming and whatnot.
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![dgsdfgasgasgsdfg dgsdfgasgasgsdfg](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1350398807/portrait?size=64)
dgsdfgasgasgsdfg
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Posted - 2007.09.01 11:01:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Turin
TYhats all very nice and all. Its a shame its completley wrong. isk cost IS a measure of a ships power. If it werent. Frigates would cost the same as Battleships right?
Why does then a tier 3 battleship certainly die to 20 T1 (even T1 fitted) frigs? It's way more expensive then them!
Each person is a factor too. There is no ship in the game that can't be killed by 1000 newbie ships flying at it and coming back after death.
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![Captian Internet Captian Internet](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1252609062/portrait?size=64)
Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.09.01 11:44:00 -
[189]
Originally by: dgsdfgasgasgsdfg
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Turin
TYhats all very nice and all. Its a shame its completley wrong. isk cost IS a measure of a ships power. If it werent. Frigates would cost the same as Battleships right?
Why does then a tier 3 battleship certainly die to 20 T1 (even T1 fitted) frigs? It's way more expensive then them!
Each person is a factor too. There is no ship in the game that can't be killed by 1000 newbie ships flying at it and coming back after death.
erm Officer Smart bombs?
or are we counting on lag to do it?
Local Thread 107-b |
![Boknamar Boknamar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/804429044/portrait?size=64)
Boknamar
Gallente The Knights Trevor
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Posted - 2007.09.12 09:06:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve. Then tell us all about how you don't have a death-grip on 10/10 Complexes...
You people are so transparent and self-serving. Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
Idiot. Did you miss the part where I said less than 6M SP? Did you miss the part where I said using only a shuttle. Both those points mean that T2 BPO or Capital ships are not needed. 10/10 complexes? No one farms those anymore. CCP nerfed them. Please try and know something about the game.
As for how. I already told you. I'll use smaller words. Lvl 4 courier missions pay 2.7M a mission. You can do them in a shuttle. No skills needed. Nothing ever risked. isk is free. Anyone can be "rich".
I don't care one way or another about this mothership debate, but please tell me more about these courier missions that pay 2.7 million ISK. With negotiations at 4, the range of payment I get for courier missions is from around 400,000 to about 1.1 million ISK. The mode seems somewhere around 600,000-700,000.
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![Erotic Irony Erotic Irony](https://images.evetech.net/characters/281011440/portrait?size=64)
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.12 09:09:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Boknamar
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve. Then tell us all about how you don't have a death-grip on 10/10 Complexes...
You people are so transparent and self-serving. Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
Idiot. Did you miss the part where I said less than 6M SP? Did you miss the part where I said using only a shuttle. Both those points mean that T2 BPO or Capital ships are not needed. 10/10 complexes? No one farms those anymore. CCP nerfed them. Please try and know something about the game.
As for how. I already told you. I'll use smaller words. Lvl 4 courier missions pay 2.7M a mission. You can do them in a shuttle. No skills needed. Nothing ever risked. isk is free. Anyone can be "rich".
I don't care one way or another about this mothership debate, but please tell me more about these courier missions that pay 2.7 million ISK. With negotiations at 4, the range of payment I get for courier missions is from around 400,000 to about 1.1 million ISK. The mode seems somewhere around 600,000-700,000.
Probably lowsec agent and maybe he's valuing and additional xxx lp as yyy isk on top of the base 500k. ___ Support Killmail Overhaul
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![Tunak Tunak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/579516051/portrait?size=64)
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:12:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Boknamar
I don't care one way or another about this mothership debate, but please tell me more about these courier missions that pay 2.7 million ISK. With negotiations at 4, the range of payment I get for courier missions is from around 400,000 to about 1.1 million ISK. The mode seems somewhere around 600,000-700,000.
Probably lowsec agent and maybe he's valuing and additional xxx lp as yyy isk on top of the base 500k.
I don't wish to highjack the thread so this is the last I'll say here.
I've already posted everything about it. I'll go over it again but I'm not spoon feeding. Go spend some time playing with the mission system and learn how it works.
0.1 4/20 courier missions pay 700K isk, with bonus, and 1400-2600 LP. Get the increased LP skill books. LP directly translates to at least 1000 isk per LP. I haven't looked but I hear faction ammo pushes it up higher but you have to rely on the market to convert LP to isk with ammo. That means 1 mission is 2.7 million or more. I cancel anything below 2K LP as it's not worth my time.
Find a station with multiple 4/20 quality courier agents. Cancel any mission with too much cargo, in the wrong direction, doesn't pay enough, or $misc_reason_to_cancel. Load up your multiple missions. Go 2-4 hops out. Go 2-4 hops back. Collect isk. Repeat.
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![Boknamar Boknamar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/804429044/portrait?size=64)
Boknamar
Gallente The Knights Trevor
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Posted - 2007.09.12 19:54:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Boknamar
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve. Then tell us all about how you don't have a death-grip on 10/10 Complexes...
You people are so transparent and self-serving. Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
Idiot. Did you miss the part where I said less than 6M SP? Did you miss the part where I said using only a shuttle. Both those points mean that T2 BPO or Capital ships are not needed. 10/10 complexes? No one farms those anymore. CCP nerfed them. Please try and know something about the game.
As for how. I already told you. I'll use smaller words. Lvl 4 courier missions pay 2.7M a mission. You can do them in a shuttle. No skills needed. Nothing ever risked. isk is free. Anyone can be "rich".
I don't care one way or another about this mothership debate, but please tell me more about these courier missions that pay 2.7 million ISK. With negotiations at 4, the range of payment I get for courier missions is from around 400,000 to about 1.1 million ISK. The mode seems somewhere around 600,000-700,000.
Probably lowsec agent and maybe he's valuing and additional xxx lp as yyy isk on top of the base 500k.
That can't be true. That would mean he was playing fast and loose with the facts. ![ugh](/images/icon_ugh.gif) |
![34534bobalt3244 34534bobalt3244](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1491388502/portrait?size=64)
34534bobalt3244
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Posted - 2007.09.18 12:04:00 -
[194]
When people decide flying ships smaller than battleships is the only way to have fun.
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