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Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:38:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Hayah Theos incoherent offtopic babble
I've calmly responded to your posts. I shouldn't have. I have to remember to not feed the trolls.
Until you have something constructive, *plonk*.
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Voodoo'sMother
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:43:00 -
[152]
Its only a matter of time before low sec moms get nerfed. Imho
And when it does I hope they all get killed by the people who killed Hera.
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Yeah I typo- So what. |
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.28 01:15:00 -
[153]
Well, if it is deemed necessary to make motherships more killable, and do note I never really debated gamebalance here, just the feasability of a lowsec momship kill, I think the best solution, both for moms and caps is to make them scramable, but with very high points, as has been mentioned. If you need say 25 ships to scramble a mothership it becomes difficult but more plausible. A larger fleet should be necessary for a titan... This would be a matter for ccp to think about, but then supercaps would instantly become blob magnets. Personally I would rather keep lowsec less laggy, but what the hell, eh?
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F90OEX
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Posted - 2007.08.28 02:55:00 -
[154]
When was the last time a MS was killed in Low-sec space....
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Karlemgne
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:43:00 -
[155]
Originally by: F90OEX When was the last time a MS was killed in Low-sec space....
Uh... never.
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Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:47:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Originally by: F90OEX When was the last time a MS was killed in Low-sec space....
Uh... never.
I killed one mere seconds ago. No.. really. Wait.. nope.. no I did not as its practically impossible! Mom in low sec is just a HUGE Carebear Mobile tbh.
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Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.28 07:20:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated
Originally by: Karlemgne
Originally by: F90OEX When was the last time a MS was killed in Low-sec space....
Uh... never.
I killed one mere seconds ago. No.. really. Wait.. nope.. no I did not as its practically impossible! Mom in low sec is just a HUGE Carebear Mobile tbh.
No no Carebear is the mindset that pvp = rape
Lowsec moms= screw this im outta here keep the fighters
Local Thread 107-b |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.28 10:03:00 -
[158]
I tend to agree, supercapitals (titans/motherships) really shouldn't have offensive capability in low-sec (0.1-0.4).
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Doxs Roxs
White Wolves Defence league The OSS
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Posted - 2007.08.28 10:07:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 19:35:50 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:27:00 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:25:24 I got to thinking about this last night when a corp mate got blown up by a smartbombing mothership in lowsec. The corp mate only lost a shuttle and his clone, no implants so he laughed but the discussion started around the incident. We basically came to the conclusion that it was nearly impossible to kill a mothership in lowsec. It is, an unkillable weapon and when used by pirates, an immense edge on others. Now dont get me wrong, Im not anti-pirate or anti-pvp by far. I just think invincible "I win" buttons are not healthy for eve.
In lowsec you cant bubble the mothership or tackle it because it is immune to ewar. You cant scramble it or hold it or damp or jam it. You cant web it or stop it in any way. In addition, you cant stop the fighters, they warp out of bubbles, cant be warp scrambled, and are immune to damps and ECM. It begs the question of how you kill the bloody thing. Well first of all you will need to get a bubble on it because if you cant hold it then it will just warp away. CCP once proposed that you "bump it with a bunch of dreads" but that is patently rediculous. First of all a dread not do so much damage over a BS when out of siege mode and when they are in siege mode, they cant move at all. And lets face it, a dread is not exactly speedy out of siege mode. But hey, lets assume I get enough BS in the system to bump the guy ... WHOOOOOSH ... "what happened?" ... "oh ... he Cynoed out". The fact that wrecks and corpses will soon be immaterial means you cant even surround it with corps piles to try and keep it from aligning (the way goonfleet killed a mothership) The fact is you cant deploy bubbles in lowsec so you cant stop him from cynoing or warping. Even with interdiction bubbles in 0.0 you have are going to have to be a lot of them because the mothership will have faction or officer smartbombs and be radiating out from the MODEL, not the center of the ship.
So ... how many battleships does it take to alphastrike a mothership again?
This is just stupidly rediculous and it burns me that CCP is making changes that are nerfing people right and left when the things that REALLY need nerfage are being buffed and made even more unkillable. I wonder how long it is before there are camps of 10 motherships on lowsec chokes messing up the game.
The solution is simple. Make Motherships and Titans affected by warp disruptors and webbers. They would still be very powerful ships but they would not be solo pwnmobiles.
Although Eve is the best MMOG out there, I sometimes wonder how development priorities are set. EVERYTHING should be killable. THere should be no "i win" buttons in eve.
I an only agree, below is a quote from another post I made a while back.
Originally by: Doxs Giving titans and motherships near invulnerability in low sec is just plain stupid.
A simple solution would be to change their warp scramble immunity to a blockade runner style bonus. But instead of +2 they could get something like +30 or maybe even +50-60 (or higher, whatever is deemed balanced).
In addition to this a capital warp scrambler should be added, give it a scramble strength of 10 or something (same here, exact figures have to be balanced).
Thus, if you have a large fleet or 5-6 dreads you could lock a mothership or a titan down. They would no longer be near invulnerable. Meanwhile the super capitals are not overly nerfed, they would still be very hard to catch, ensuring you do get value for your isk spent on it.
Regards /Doxs
After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead... |
KHEN
New Horizons
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Posted - 2007.08.28 11:18:00 -
[160]
Edited by: KHEN on 28/08/2007 11:23:42
From what I read here, I see that there is a misunderstanding :
If I say that my Mothership will be camping a gate in a said low-sec-system tomorrow, from 19:00 to 20:00 EVT, I'm pretty sure that I'll see a nice fleet coming to try to kill it. I'm almost sure that it will be killed because hostiles will be well prepared and organized. That to demonstrate that the ship is killable.
Now the whines that I read here are about a ship that would be "unkillable". What should I conclude ? That people don't want to plan and organize for an event that might not come, because it is a load of preparation and isks for something that might never occur. (what about a bait then ?)
Then people want to be able to kill the best ship class in game but with no particular preparation, just on a lucky dip. They just want an easy kill, no matter what the ship costs to fit decently, no matter of the weaknesses of the ship. (if you want to know which they are, purchase a MS, fit it, then see)
Nevertheless I agree that with numbers MS camps in low-sec will be a problem. From my pov the solution is not to ban supercapitals from low, but to increase greatly the vulnerabilty to sentry fire for supercapitals (include Neutralizers ?), or even make the gate itself warp/jump scrambling the ship for a short while (10 minutes ?). Or even involve randomly some concord capital keepers (kidding here ofc :) )
Another idea which sounded good was to give supercaps a finite number of warp strenght, 20-50 points range (?)
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Needo
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:59:00 -
[161]
I just returned from not playing for ~3 years so if these ideas are completely off, please say so politely. :) I know little about current mechanics to be honest... but.
Could this package -> fun gameplay?
* cyno has a max range of 5-10 gates * cyno cannot be scrambled by any means at all * once cyno is activated, it takes 2-3 minutes before jumping, displays cyno field animation * there is a module you can use on cyno-field that reveals the destination system without delay * there is a captial warp scrambler that only fits dictors and only scrambles warp but leaves cyno intact
Effects:
* you cannot insta-drop capitals in fights, and no captial-drop-ganks. you would have to deploy them with a 2-3 min delay * if a MS wants to cyno escape it will take 2-3 minutes and during this time there is a window for the attacking fleet to hunt down and destroy the remote cyno-ship -> cancelled jump * you can scramble MS in lowsec with dictors, but there is still the cyno-escape (which can be countered if organized)
Based on guesses and from reading posts here. Anything useful?
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You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________ |
DarkStar251
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:17:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden Its not a matter of power; motherships are not solo-pwnmobiles and they never will be. Its a matter of value. If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die.
Oh yeah! Thats why my Abaddon can safely take on 100 tech one frigates and change while being completely invulnerable!
Wait....
Cheap ships kill expensive ships all the time in EVE. In this case, 5 dreads (2.5b each at least including fittings) and 20 BSes (probably and average of 180m including fittings, given that there will be some tier 3s in there), a total of 16.1b isk, not far under the cost of the Mothership, should stand a pretty good chance of killing a MS, and indeed would with bubbles in 0.0.
Right now in lowsec? It either warps away or Cynos out. Invulnerable.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:29:00 -
[163]
Originally by: KHEN
...we're going to try to kill a MOM in low-sec...
Proof of stfu.
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously |
Radioactive Babe
Red Frost
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:27:00 -
[164]
Keep it simple, the most viable answer to Moms in lowsec was already mentioned *dun dun dunnnnn* ban smartbombs from 0.1 - 1.0 space. Its not like anyone uses them much anyway
With 20 frigs bumping it and 20 bs's with neuts on it (10 of them giving a neut alpha strike and the others stepping in every couple of seconds counteract recharge) it should have a hard time. Maybe another 10 - 15 sniper BS's to take out the fighters.
As for people saying they paid anywhere from 15 to 45 bil for their solopwnmobile .....tough. Use it in 0.0 like it was designed for ya pussies. |
Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:35:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Karlemgne Again, alright. So game mechanics should be changed so that my Navy Raven, which is 10x more expensive than a regular BS, can tank (again) 10 Battleships simultaneously.
-Karlemgne
Your Navy Raven is not 10x the price of a regular BS - you're just willing to pay 10x the normal price. If it pops, you don't get 10x the insurance money. That is a bad example because you are using a rare factional item.
To be fairer to your example, I can see reducing the estimated cost of the Mothership to about 20-25 billion, because the 35 billion figure does include Officer gear.
All I was saying is that you need to put up comparable amounts of isk to be able to claim anything about the Motherships being overpowered. For 20 billion, you can get about 200 T1 Battleships. That amount of firepower would melt a Mom in a single volley.
If you don't have 200 Battleships, how can you complain about the Mom being overpowered? That would be a fair fight Isk-wise, yet the Mom wouldn't stand a chance.
It seems the OP wants to be able to kill about 1000 times the ship value as he puts on the line. That's not realistic. People get hung up on the fact that its a single ship, so think its overpowered. Personally, I'd rather take 200 Battleships out on a rampage than a single Mothership.
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RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:59:00 -
[166]
Edited by: RtoZ on 28/08/2007 15:00:15 Well said princess jodi. The fact that the eve engine allows damage accumulation means that any ship dies under enough firepower, so no ship is by definition unkillable. It's just a case of probability, which for the mothership class is low in low-sec, but considering what these things are, how much they cost, their own little caveats and the numbers of them active atm I don't see the situation being too bad yet. And if it is too bad, and repeating myself and others, I think a high warp scramble strength is the solution.
And to repeat myself again: these are massively expensive and slow ships which have shorter jump ranges than carriers and are very slow to align. They have huge signatures. It is pretty easy to break the mechanics of motherships and turn them into suicide ships (see: titans). This ship class is the queen of eve (no homosexual insinuation implied at mothership pilots ) and I would dislike it if they got nerfed into uselessness, which is pretty easy to do.
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Noxic
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Posted - 2007.08.28 15:16:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Noxic on 28/08/2007 15:16:52
Originally by: Princess Jodi
Originally by: Karlemgne Again, alright. So game mechanics should be changed so that my Navy Raven, which is 10x more expensive than a regular BS, can tank (again) 10 Battleships simultaneously.
-Karlemgne
Your Navy Raven is not 10x the price of a regular BS - you're just willing to pay 10x the normal price. If it pops, you don't get 10x the insurance money. That is a bad example because you are using a rare factional item.
To be fairer to your example, I can see reducing the estimated cost of the Mothership to about 20-25 billion, because the 35 billion figure does include Officer gear.
All I was saying is that you need to put up comparable amounts of isk to be able to claim anything about the Motherships being overpowered. For 20 billion, you can get about 200 T1 Battleships. That amount of firepower would melt a Mom in a single volley.
If you don't have 200 Battleships, how can you complain about the Mom being overpowered? That would be a fair fight Isk-wise, yet the Mom wouldn't stand a chance.
It seems the OP wants to be able to kill about 1000 times the ship value as he puts on the line. That's not realistic. People get hung up on the fact that its a single ship, so think its overpowered. Personally, I'd rather take 200 Battleships out on a rampage than a single Mothership.
IT TAKES ONE PERSON TO FLY A MOTHERSHIP, HOW MANY PEOPLE GOTTA FLY BS TO KILL THE "I WIN" BUTTON PUSHER? and thats assuming your fighting one mothership and not 3-4...
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KHEN
New Horizons
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Posted - 2007.08.28 16:52:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: KHEN
...we're going to try to kill a MOM in low-sec...
Proof of stfu.
Sorry sir, but I never wrote that sentence, nowhere, check you sources
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Minmatar096773
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Posted - 2007.08.31 10:02:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Noxic
IT TAKES ONE PERSON TO FLY A MOTHERSHIP, HOW MANY PEOPLE GOTTA FLY BS TO KILL THE "I WIN" BUTTON PUSHER? and thats assuming your fighting one mothership and not 3-4...
It takes one person to use CAPSLOCK. How many people need to kill the "I WIN" button pusher? And that is assuming you are fighting one SENTENCE and not 3-4...
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.08.31 10:06:00 -
[170]
Don't know if it's been said, but couldn't a mothership be killed by...TWO motherships?
So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have. |
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Tunak
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Posted - 2007.08.31 11:56:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Don't know if it's been said, but couldn't a mothership be killed by...TWO motherships?
No. Also bumping is in no way a solution. The point that all offered solutions fail to account for is cyno. If a mothership pilot sees 30+ all warp in on him he's not going to be there long enough for you to neut him below 75% cap. He'll be gone in the time it takes to alt tab uncloak pop a cyno and alt tab back. You don't fly a 25B isk ship and then sit around and wonder why local jumped by 30.
The only first step is denying the cyno. Everything must come after that. How do you get, at least, 36 large neuts on a mothership before it leaves?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.31 13:46:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Don't know if it's been said, but couldn't a mothership be killed by...TWO motherships?
Actually, no, it can't. They can't stop it leaving, and at best you'll get a standoff as they smartbomb each other's fighters.
The argument about isk = invulnerability is a dumb one. The limiting factor in _any_ fight in EVE is number of pilots. Isks are very much a secondary concern. The fact that you cannot realistically take down a MS in lowsec with a 70 man fleet, is ludicrous.
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Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.31 13:54:00 -
[173]
It probably took 200 people to raise the money to buy that single 'I-Win' button too.
Seriously: I've been Mothership-Capable for over a year, and have tried to get the funds for one for almost 2 years. I'm nowhere close. But I bet any alliance could get 200 battleships in a weekend or two of Mining. Try doing that, take your 200 battleships on a romp around Eve, then compare your results to what a single mothership could accomplish.
I think the OP is just jelaous that they don't have a Mothership. I know I am.
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asgghsfdgsgsg
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:46:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Princess Jodi It probably took 200 people to raise the money to buy that single 'I-Win' button too.
Seriously: I've been Mothership-Capable for over a year, and have tried to get the funds for one for almost 2 years. I'm nowhere close. But I bet any alliance could get 200 battleships in a weekend or two of Mining. Try doing that, take your 200 battleships on a romp around Eve, then compare your results to what a single mothership could accomplish.
I think the OP is just jelaous that they don't have a Mothership. I know I am.
Make a powerful business plan and work the markets. Or an even better scam.
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Badhands
Gallente DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:54:00 -
[175]
Invincible ships... you mean docked ships? Because those are the only invincible ships I can think of.
Originally by: Player Guide
Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses.
^^^Stolen from Tarminic^^^ |
General Apocalypse
Amarr The Merchant Marines
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:55:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Badhands Invincible ships... you mean docked ships? Because those are the only invincible ships I can think of.
QFT
Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz
Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
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Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:39:00 -
[177]
ok Cost vs Vunlerablity geniuses
I am now flying a Jaguar with 4 estamel's invulnerability fields fitted and nothing else, no weapons, no damage mods.
I demand every ship that comes within 14 AU of me self destructs out of sheer principle
Local Thread 107-b |
Turin
Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:48:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi Rells. I am glad you bring this subject up. The horrors of mums in low-secs are indeed scary thoughts.
I think CCP should balance the game in the sense that anything bigger than a battleship must be made a 0.0 object. It should be done that people who are looking for fights should be fighting in 0.0 space and people who do not wish to fight can still play freely in high-secs.
Low-secs should be in between i.e. people will at most engage battleships. It would be an intermediary level for people learning to fight and 0.0 would be for crazy hard core players. Only people in 0.0 have the resources to kill mums to be honest.
You would destroy logistics with this. Carriers are the backbone of logistics movements. not allowing a carrier into .4 or below would absolutley destroy logistics for many many many many alliances.
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Turin
Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:51:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship)
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
TYhats all very nice and all. Its a shame its completley wrong. isk cost IS a measure of a ships power. If it werent. Frigates would cost the same as Battleships right?
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omiNATION
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Posted - 2007.08.31 17:02:00 -
[180]
Easy solution.
Move warp scrambler out of the EW category, or make motherships not immune to them, then give them a +8ish bonus strength to warp jamming.
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