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Alexis Nightwish
185
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Posted - 2015.05.12 22:10:53 -
[91] - Quote
The problem isn't just with where cynos can be lit, but the fact that they are instantaneous, and can be jumped to immediately.
JFs' (and travel fit dreads' and carriers') near invulnerability is due to these facts, and is only one symptom of a sickness that's plagued EVE since RMR: There's no counterplay to cynos.
There's a reason my sig shows the icon for cynos (and links) as EVE's "I win button".
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
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Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
9
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Posted - 2015.05.12 22:29:55 -
[92] - Quote
I agree with the OP. It doesn't make sense. I mean, we have used to have warp to 15km for regular ships going to places, because of "safety" concerns. A giant vortex into another part of space should be a concern for the station.
On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
Rivr Luzade wrote:So, now I need 3 accounts to earn some money? Guess, I need to buy some PC upgrades after all. Besides of that: 10 km from a Minmatar Tradepost puts the cyno a lot closer to the station (15 km more or less) than 10 km from an Amarr Military Station or Caldari Administrative station (between 30-40 km from the station). What kind of random safety is that? Also, do you intend to push independent haulers out of business? I know for a matter of fact that I will not allow anyone except for my alts to touch my JF just because either some people simply feel the need for easy content to make their members happy or because some people know how to play the game properly. By the looks of it, you want to turn already tedious, laborious, time-consuming, ISK intensive, little appreciated, highly undervalued and underestimated work into the mess that moving super caps is. Fantastic.
Maybe MMO's arent for you?
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2911
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Posted - 2015.05.12 23:30:53 -
[93] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I think you mean the goon (fill in any large null alliance here) memberships base and bottom line depend on JF safety. Get your head out of you patoot and you'll notice that most of eve does not revolve around null space. Quit blathering. Feel free to put some maths behind 10x more expensive. I need the laugh. JF fear is pretty tasty. I think I like it.
Actually HS does depend on NS. NS is the source of most high end minerals, found and mined predominantly in NS. Similarly for moon goo (yes, there is some in LS, but not enough to offset the loss of NS moon goo should that happen). Similarly there is quite a bit of destruction in NS. That destruction keeps the markets for minerals humming along, even the HS low end market.
In most economies everything is connected to everything. Do something to impact one area of the economy it will have an impact throughout the entire economy to varying degrees.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2911
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Posted - 2015.05.12 23:51:29 -
[94] - Quote
Khorvek wrote: On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week.....
Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed.
And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons:
1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue.
And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
9
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Posted - 2015.05.13 00:41:30 -
[95] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote: On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week..... Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed. And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons: 1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue. And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common.
Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing.
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2913
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 05:58:51 -
[96] - Quote
Khorvek wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote: On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week..... Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed. And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons: 1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue. And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common. Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing.
An expanding economy (more goods and services) does not have to mean lower prices and is not a bad thing. People both in game and IRL do not want less goods and services, they want more. From this the idea the more goods is somehow bad is simply laughable. And an expanding economy does not have to result in reduced prices.
Markets tend to be self-correcting as well.[1] If too much is produced then the price reduction is to clear the market and signal people producing in that market to leave that market. Just as if prices increase it signals people to enter that market to produce more. So prices cannot just decrease without end...or if they are it is indicative of a more serious problem like a contraction of the money supply which can lead to deflation.
And in any event JFs do not produce in game goods. A JF moves goods around the economy getting it from sellers to final buyers. There are a number of JF pilots who are probably best described as engaged in arbitrage. They buy in Jita at a given price and then move their goods to NS where they can charge a higher price. This is not producing goods, but is instead essentially a service.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Juan Mileghere
Incident Command Southern Star Dominion
26
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Posted - 2015.05.13 07:24:37 -
[97] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Lakotnik wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe. You do realize most Low-sec systems are camped by BLOPS/Cap teams already right? If timed right, they can even bump you off of station in those 5 seconds you can't dock after a jump. So I'd say it's another bad idea from people who can't find content. So they want the game nerfed so they can get more juicy kills. The nerve.. No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system. has it ever occured there are reasons some systems are empty?
Blobbing Explained
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Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2015.05.13 10:07:31 -
[98] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote: On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week..... Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed. And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons: 1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue. And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common. Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing. An expanding economy (more goods and services) does not have to mean lower prices and is not a bad thing. People both in game and IRL do not want less goods and services, they want more. From this the idea the more goods is somehow bad is simply laughable. And an expanding economy does not have to result in reduced prices. Markets tend to be self-correcting as well.[1] If too much is produced then the price reduction is to clear the market and signal people producing in that market to leave that market. Just as if prices increase it signals people to enter that market to produce more. So prices cannot just decrease without end...or if they are it is indicative of a more serious problem like a contraction of the money supply which can lead to deflation. And in any event JFs do not produce in game goods. A JF moves goods around the economy getting it from sellers to final buyers. There are a number of JF pilots who are probably best described as engaged in arbitrage. They buy in Jita at a given price and then move their goods to NS where they can charge a higher price. This is not producing goods, but is instead essentially a service.
What? Obviously people want more. Have you looked at De Beers lately? They withhold saturating the market with their stockpile of diamonds, simply because that'd mean diamonds would become worthless.
I suggest you go read some supply and demand.
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 11:36:25 -
[99] - Quote
Khorvek wrote:
Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing.
Maybe you should read and understand what people are talking about instead of quoting Business insider web pages?
Low demand and a saturated market cause prices to drop until trader give up (due to low margin) but this has absolutely no influence on PVP. It's only a game between supply and demand which in the end drives the price and nothing else.
On the other side people who want to shoot things need to re stock ammo, modules and ships. When you stop resupplying an area people will have to move away - either in the last remaining ship they have, in a pod or using pod express. So instead of complaining about markets being seeded by traders you should be glad to have them, or do you want to fly back to Jita from the edge of the universe just to pick up another frig and some modules whenever you loose one?
If you believe that Blockade runners offer enough cargo hold to replace JF for seeding markets and not drying up any place in Lowsec/Null then you never had a look at the fitting details of these ship types and the required volumes (in m^3) to seed a market.
If you believe everyone will switch to JF to haul goods because they are 99.9% safe then you never had a look at the required logistics (multiple cyno alts), the costs (Jump fuel, ozone, cyno generators) the limitations (cyno only LS/NS) and the other costs (billions in skills plus a ship worth 7 billion).
If you really understand something about markets (which I doubt by reading your signature) then you would be able to do a short calculation which includes the costs and only the potential profit / low risk. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:12:57 -
[100] - Quote
Juan Mileghere wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Lakotnik wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I would send in a scout before I jumped a freighter in or an escort to meet it. With pings for jump in I think they would still be very safe just not totally safe. You do realize most Low-sec systems are camped by BLOPS/Cap teams already right? If timed right, they can even bump you off of station in those 5 seconds you can't dock after a jump. So I'd say it's another bad idea from people who can't find content. So they want the game nerfed so they can get more juicy kills. The nerve.. No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system. has it ever occured there are reasons some systems are empty?
People are too lazy to scout them enough to know when the predators are active? |
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:14:58 -
[101] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Khorvek wrote: On the game mechanics side, I see the point in not allowing people to go right to a station. Eventually everyone will just use jump capable ships to move goods, which is crippling to the economy, and the PVP side of the game.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen written down this week..... Improving logistics has never been bad for any economy anywhere. Anybody stating it is bad for the economy should go sit in the corner and feel ashamed. And no, there are still times you might want to use ships other than a JF. I often use a transport for a few reaons: 1. Its great when hauling high value "small" cargo. 2. It is nearly impervious to high sec ganking if you are manually flying through HS. 3. If you are moving via some sort of jump bridge, low fatigue. And no, JFs are not going to make PvP less common.
This is a game. What is good for an economy is not necessarily what is good for a game. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:16:08 -
[102] - Quote
Juan Mileghere wrote:Harrison Tato wrote: No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system.
has it ever occured there are reasons some systems are empty?
Some hints why Beke and Leran are empty: Both are low sec systems which don't have anything around them beside Highsec so they are not attractive/big enough for low sec groups. Both systems are also not important for travelling in the region (check the amount of Jumps/14h on dotlan) and can be avoided easily which makes them unattractive for pirates/gate camps.
Such more quite systems are perfect when you have to move goods in a hauler, freighter, JF or orca. And both systems have connections to HS and stations in HS which makes returning from a hauling trip more safe.
However I am pretty sure that you are wrong about Beke as cyno system. I can't find any recent cyno kill on zkillboard which is not surprising because the stations in this system are unsafe. The docking range in both cases is too small for placing a cyno within its range |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:16:58 -
[103] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote: This is a game. What is good for an economy is not necessarily what is good for a game.
So you want to tell us you don't require a ship to fly around? |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:17:33 -
[104] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Juan Mileghere wrote:Harrison Tato wrote: No idea. I fly though dozens of empty low-sec systems every day. I know that people jump freighters into Beke and Leran all day long with almost nobody in system.
has it ever occured there are reasons some systems are empty? Some hints why Beke and Leran are empty: Both are low sec systems which don't have anything around them beside Highsec so they are not attractive/big enough for low sec groups. Both systems are also not important for travelling in the region (check the amount of Jumps/14h on dotlan) and can be avoided easily which makes them unattractive for pirates/gate camps. Such more quite systems are perfect when you have to move goods in a hauler, freighter, JF or orca. And both systems have connections to HS and stations in HS which makes returning from a hauling trip more safe. However I am pretty sure that you are wrong about Beke as cyno system. I can't find any recent cyno kill on zkillboard which is not surprising because the stations in this system are unsafe. The docking range in both cases is too small for placing a cyno within its range
I watch people jump frieghters and carriers into Leran all the time. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:42:04 -
[105] - Quote
And after this thread you still don't understand why people prefer to use some systems and try to avoid others? Do you believe low sec miners like crowded systems? Do you run explorations in null sec in a system with 20 neutrals in local?
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:48:19 -
[106] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:And after this thread you still don't understand why people prefer to use some systems and try to avoid others? Do you believe low sec miners like crowded systems? Do you run explorations in null sec in a system with 20 neutrals in local?
Nope Nope and Nope/ |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:59:44 -
[107] - Quote
A carrier can defend itself. A freighter in HS uses it's tank and Concord for defense. In LS/NS there is no Concord so the only way for a JF to survive is to jump from station to station and dock immediately. And you want to remove the only defense mechanism this ship class has and believe that in such a case people would still spend 10 billion isk to learn how to fly one, buy it and loose it within a short period?
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Lord LazyGhost
Bear Bones Brigade The Bastards.
486
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:09:16 -
[108] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:I see so many jump frieghters in low-sec that jump in right at the undock of a station (and under its guns.) I think for content and station safety reasons all stations should prevents jumps within 10k. I support this product.
Hows about hisec does not allow anyone that has below -5 standing use its stations nor gates. as really who would allow criminals enter their stations |
Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:13:11 -
[109] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Khorvek wrote:
Maybe you should learn something about economies, then. The safer goods hauling is, the more stuff saturates the market. The more stuff saturates the market, the lower the price of a good, and therefore the move volume you must sell to make the same profit. I assume you're the same type of person who still mines veldspar even when trit is crashing.
Maybe you should read and understand what people are talking about instead of quoting Business insider web pages? Low demand and a saturated market cause prices to drop until trader give up (due to low margin) but this has absolutely no influence on PVP. It's only a game between supply and demand which in the end drives the price and nothing else. On the other side people who want to shoot things need to re stock ammo, modules and ships. When you stop resupplying an area people will have to move away - either in the last remaining ship they have, in a pod or using pod express. So instead of complaining about markets being seeded by traders you should be glad to have them, or do you want to fly back to Jita from the edge of the universe just to pick up another frig and some modules whenever you loose one? If you believe that Blockade runners offer enough cargo hold to replace JF for seeding markets and not drying up any place in Lowsec/Null then you never had a look at the fitting details of these ship types and the required volumes (in m^3) to seed a market. If you believe everyone will switch to JF to haul goods because they are 99.9% safe then you never had a look at the required logistics (multiple cyno alts), the running costs (Jump fuel, ozone, cyno generators) the limitations (cyno only LS/NS) and the other initial costs (billions in skills plus a ship worth 7 billion plus some months training). Finally if you really understand something about markets (which I doubt by reading your signature) then you would be able to do a short calculation which includes the costs and only the potential profit / low risk. So if you want to learn something about costs, risk and reward just take a ship, fill it with some billions in loot and then fly around a busy null sec station for a while. You will learn a lot and the first thing is: null is not empty in all areas and sometimes a single neutral in your sys can ruin your day. Btw.: last correlation: if you fly through an almost empty LS/NS system and only see JF coming and going then there is a simple reason for this. With this price tag on your head you try to avoid busy systems whenever possible. I am pretty sure for the same reason you will also find more miners in such areas.
Why don't you explain to me where isk comes from, then. Assuming you know so much, you should be able to prove that isk can be generated from player trading without missions, NPC buy orders for loot, and rats.
What people tend to do when they need resupply is to fly to a hub themselves, either on a main or alt, to supply themselves.
You claim that a trader giving up putting goods into a market has no influence on PvP, then say it does because people need to resupply their ships. Consistency, please.
No, I didn't quote BI web pages. I provided a link. The effects of market saturation are well established. The effect of getting goods to a market at no risk, in a game where there is little population growth, should also be an easy read.
Consider that there's an average of 4 alts per person in a hypothetical scenario. Most people use those alts as slave labor. They are not really consumers of the market, although they may impact the market through trade. No one plays 4 alts to give them equal time and assets + liquid capital. They further the decrease of value of goods on market, because they have little demand for goods, while being a supplier of goods. Say 30,000 players are the norm, there's ~190,000 individuals in game, but 160,000 of them are producing value while not really taking value out of the system.
Add onto that the ease of JFing stuff into a station, and you have high market saturation compared to the rate at which thing go boom. That is bad for economy because, as you said, industrialites will "give up". Either they'll stop playing Eve or they'll start pvping, or perhaps there's a third option. Perhaps they keep producing battlecruisers at a true loss to themselves.
You should join the manufacturing channel sometime and ask in chat if battlecruisers make good money.
As far as calculating costs, I'm aware that most people are actually quite bad at this, which is why you don't often see successful lowsec trade hubs with the markup that they should generally be set at, given hazard rates for losses, providing a service for ease of access, transport costs, etc.
Since you love Business Insider, here's another:
http://www.businessinsider.com/3-powerful-pricing-strategies-businesses-should-always-consider-2013-10
Miners who consider their time spent hauling ore to market themselves, or who consider their ore "free", are the most potent example of people breaking the rules of profits. They literally put themselves out of business, or into slave wages, through lack of foresight. Perhaps they don't really care much and mining in Eve is just some side entertainment they aren't "serious" about, however, their effect on economy is to depreciate the value of spaceships as well, because of the bloated inventory made by industrialists, who then also feel pressured to compete and do the same thing; overproduce and underprice.
The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:27:51 -
[110] - Quote
Lord LazyGhost wrote:Reppyk wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:I see so many jump frieghters in low-sec that jump in right at the undock of a station (and under its guns.) I think for content and station safety reasons all stations should prevents jumps within 10k. I support this product. Hows about hisec does not allow anyone that has below -5 standing use its stations nor gates. as really who would allow criminals enter their stations
Sounds logical to me. It is suprising that CONCORD doesn't establish a penal star system where all criminals are jumped to when using gates. Once there they can never escape and it becomes Lord of the Flies :) |
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
108
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:39:20 -
[111] - Quote
Khorvek wrote:
The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.
You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change.
And here the situation is clear. You need the possibility to move high volumes to keep the economy running.
Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game which should be removed according to the OP.
Using a JF in a different way (e.g. jumping into a system without station or by using a cyno outside a docking range) is the best way to loose such a ship within a short period. It can only be done in quiet areas when no one else is around and you still find a lot of kills happening in such systems.
What you all forget is that JF haul goods which end on the market. A market can only exist if people are around so JF pilot simply cannot avoid crowded areas. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 13:51:50 -
[112] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Khorvek wrote:
The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.
You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change. And here the situation is clear. You need the possibility to move high volumes to keep the economy running. Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game which should be removed according to the OP. Using a JF in a different way (e.g. jumping into a system without station or by using a cyno outside a docking range) is the best way to loose such a ship within a short period. It can only be done in quiet areas when no one else is around and you still find a lot of kills happening in such systems. What you all forget is that JF haul goods which end on the market and a market can only exist if people are around. As a result a JF pilot must jump and dock in crowded/busy systems, he can't avoid it. If he brings goods into regions where no one is around then he won't sell anything.
Do you think that prohibiting cynos within 10K of Empire stations would cause enough pain in null to trigger some desperation moves? |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1029
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:05:41 -
[113] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Do you think that prohibiting cynos within 10K of Empire stations would cause enough pain in null to trigger some desperation moves?
You could propose a 2h lifetime on mobile warp bubbles or suggest delayed local, depending on just how suicidal you feel.
*not having minmatar T2 components in amarr space* is considered a cut into self-sufficiency, and not being able to reliably solo JF without any preparation besides logging toons will make prices explode *to ten times their current values*.
I'd say the barrier to desperation moves is a thin one. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:12:35 -
[114] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Do you think that prohibiting cynos within 10K of Empire stations would cause enough pain in null to trigger some desperation moves? You could propose a 2h lifetime on mobile warp bubbles or suggest delayed local, depending on just how suicidal you feel. *not having minmatar T2 components in amarr space* is considered a cut into self-sufficiency, and not being able to reliably solo JF without any preparation besides logging toons will make prices explode *to ten times their current values*. I'd say the barrier to desperation moves is a thin one.
I love the delayed local idea. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
109
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:35:06 -
[115] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote: Do you think that prohibiting cynos within 10K of Empire stations would cause enough pain in null to trigger some desperation moves?
Let me explain some game mechanism because it seems you never have used a capital.
- A capital ship always is a huge investment and you really don't want to loose it.
- A capital kill is the wet dream of every pvp player. Flying a capital means you are automatically the primary target for everyone.
- A capital ship (without webbing tricks) needs between 9 (with a MWD trick) and over 30 seconds to enter warp after entering a system through a gate or a cyno.
- A capital requires twice the amount of time (or even more) when undocking from a station to enter warp.
- A capital moves around with 70-90 m/sec which gives you an impression how long it takes to move it if you land outside a safe spot or the docking range
- Capitals can be bumped making their time to warp or fly back into safety even longer.
- A single point is enough to stop a JF from entering warp or jumping to a cyno because a JF cannot fit warp core stabs.
- Locking a huge target like a capital is done within seconds, even when you also fly a capital.
- A JF has a huge buffer tank to withstand attacks until the ship can be docked. It is required so you can dock again after you found the area around the station crowded and/or bubbled.
- Because of no warp core stabs and low speed you don't use kick off stations as long as there is no one outside protecting you.
- There are kills where a JF was alphaed by a titan. I don't know how long a titan requires to lock a capital like a JF but it shouldn't take too long. Just don't care for a second and you have problems. Even a JF doesn't survive a DD.
- Probing down a capital requires a single run with combat probes. With 8 AU range you get a 100% lock signal. A probing run takes less than 6 seconds and can only be detected on d-scan. If you see probes in the air but haven't started aligning then good luck.
- A tackler can cross a system and lock you in under 13 seconds.
- If you rat in a carrier you have less than 10 seconds to collect your drones, align to a safe spot and enter warp when a neut enters the system. If you don't have a MWD fitted in such a case you are lost. And in case the other guy is using probes he can chase you through the system until you run out of safe spots or find a cyno to jump to.
- A carrier can fit a cloak and wait until a roaming gang has left the system.
- A JF can't fit a cloak and/or MWD - you can't hide, you can't run.
- If you try to bump off a spot with a JF to avoid bubbles you are lost. Even with a nomad set, lvl 5 skills and three inertial stabs in low you need 16 seconds to enter warp. Probing and tackling takes less time.
- Cynos can be warped at without probing and stay online for 10 minutes except you trigger the self destruct mechanism of the alt.
- Lighting a cyno in a crowded system typically results in visitors appearing on grid within 20 seconds, sometimes even less time.
- If you are not visited and shot then it's only because they assume the precious target has already docked. If we change this mechanism you will have visitors each time you light one.
- The more mass you have the more you enter a warp bubble until your ship stops. A capital has a huge mass and is slow as hell, you know what a bubble means.
- If you have been unlucky and jumped into a system and you are chased around you can't jump out again because you don't have enough cap. Jump fatigue also makes another jump impossible for the next 2 minutes or even longer - enough time to find and pin you.
With these restrictions in mind do you believe I would continue moving goods into nullsec trading hubs where 20-200 pilots are in local and 10 billion or more isk at risk? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 14:51:03 -
[116] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Xequecal wrote:The Eve economy pretty much depends on Freighters and Jump Freighters being 99.9% safe. Do you want everything in the game to cost 10x as much? If you make these ships killable, that's exactly what will happen. I think you mean the goon (fill in any large null alliance here) memberships base and bottom line depend on JF safety. Get your head out of you patoot and you'll notice that most of eve does not revolve around null space. Quit blathering. Feel free to put some maths behind 10x more expensive. I need the laugh. JF fear is pretty tasty. I think I like it. Actually HS does depend on NS. NS is the source of most high end minerals, found and mined predominantly in NS. Similarly for moon goo (yes, there is some in LS, but not enough to offset the loss of NS moon goo should that happen). Similarly there is quite a bit of destruction in NS. That destruction keeps the markets for minerals humming along, even the HS low end market. In most economies everything is connected to everything. Do something to impact one area of the economy it will have an impact throughout the entire economy to varying degrees.
If null mining were to go away, then wh mining would become worth the risk and pick up the slack.
Moon Goo - lol, if that broke and the t2 market tanked - who cares? Ship hulls would skyrocket - sure. T2 mods?? Here's a dirty little secret - eve would do fine w/out them. Your way of eve wouldn't survive, but eve would.
t2 hulls are great, but if they became too expensive we'd just fly gila's and orthrus in lieu of ishtards. There are plenty of pirate ships out there that are powerful and fun to fly. Instead of dirt cheap as they are now, they would go back to 1 bil for a nightmare and so on. It would balance out.
The eve economy can easily survive jump frieghters not being 99.9% safe. I think it's cute how easily you connect adding some risk to JF use to the END OF EVE.
TL/DR Goons are good w/ ganking a freighter in Niarja but OMG don't touch our JF pay wagon - it would be THE END OF EVE. HIPPO-CRITTERS I say. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:12:22 -
[117] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:And after this thread you still don't understand why people prefer to use some systems and try to avoid others? Do you believe low sec miners like crowded systems? Do you run explorations in null sec in a system with 20 neutrals in local?
9 out of 10 null systems w/ 20 or more guys in them all dockthefuckup when I enter the system. Initiall for the first few years I thought my uber pvp reputation had them cowering in their stations at the mere sight of my name in local. As the years have passed and I've grown wiser I have come to understand that they pretty much dock up when any neutral enters system.
So, would I run any type of site in a null system w/ 20 null bears in it? I do it whenever it pleases me. Just as a cloaked ship causes no pain, a docked corp also causes no pain. The issue with a null system like that is figuring out which can opener if any will get them out of the can they are hiding in.
In general. Null has to get over itself. By no means is anything going on in null pivital to the game. Any facet out there that gets disturbed or outright wrecked will be but a ripple on the pond.
I can support this with a few examples: warp to zero speed nerf jump fatigue
All of these we game breakers. So please when some dude comes on here spouting the end of eve because null is needed - look at his corp tag, giggle and move on. What they are really lamenting is this or that proposed change might possibly upset their isk faucet and it is oh so bothersome for them to adapt.
TL/DR: Those sitting on their imagined thrones will lie, cheat and spread tales of epic gloom and doom to maintain their own personal comfy way of playing the game.
+1 to adding risk to JF traffic. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
986
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:17:40 -
[118] - Quote
Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
350
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:17:42 -
[119] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:[quote=Harrison Tato]
With these restrictions already in place do you believe I would continue moving goods into nullsec trading hubs where 20-200 pilots are in local while I risk a loss of 10 billion or more isk? Even without this change here it sometimes takes me 2-3 hours until I find a time slice long enough to move a cyno alt in place and jump and I had days where I waited for hours without being able to jump at all.
Well since I proposed the limitation for Empire space...
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
240
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:24:45 -
[120] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change.
Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.
We know what that ABILITY looks like now, but what SHOULD that ABILITY look like?
Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game
That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. Being able to haul half the market in a single player's ship and making that ship able to teleport directly from invulnerable state to invulnerable state . . . where in that is the "game"? That's God-mode. |
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