Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 07:41:18 -
[211] - Quote
HS ganks are inevitable for certain ships when flown solo.
Occasional station bumps are a function of amateurs, and are occasional.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 07:51:38 -
[212] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:HS ganks are inevitable for certain ships when flown solo due to TWO separate mechanics, coutesy of CCP.
Occasional station bumps are a function of amateurs, and are occasional, and for this occasion there has to be a second party present to take to the occasion and generate a killmail.
Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?
I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks. If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock.
And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with.
Edit: FYI, I participated in 2 Burn Jita's and seen several JFs dodge CFC/Imperium gank fleets of about 200 or so pilots this way. So, no I'm not buying your "amateurs in NS" argument. Not without more confirmation.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:08:17 -
[213] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?
https://zkillboard.com/ship/20183/losses/ https://zkillboard.com/ship/28850/losses/
There are?
Quote:I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks.
Amateurs, pros - makes no difference as the mechanics by CCP in Hisec make it inevitable. INEVITABLE.
Quote:If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock.
Thank you for contributing as to why this topic is valid.
Quote:And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with.
Indeed. Broken mechanic is broken.
Zero cynos won't stay.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:15:04 -
[214] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?
https://zkillboard.com/ship/20183/losses/ https://zkillboard.com/ship/28850/losses/ There are? Quote:I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks. Amateurs, pros - makes no difference as the mechanics by CCP in Hisec make it inevitable. INEVITABLE. Quote:If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock. Thank you for contributing as to why this topic is valid. Quote:And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with. Indeed. Broken mechanic is broken. Zero cynos won't stay.
What does that even prove? You link freighter kills? What? And what are you blathering on about inevitability and mechanics. If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being [suicide] ganked...you are doing it wrong.
By the way, I think you win for the most incoherent and nonsensical post today.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:16:00 -
[215] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being ganked...you are doing it wrong.
Precisely.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:20:58 -
[216] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being ganked...you are doing it wrong.
Precisely.
Okay........
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:22:01 -
[217] - Quote
Still wondering what actual problem would be "fixed" by this change to how cynos work.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:24:28 -
[218] - Quote
Risk being introduced into a 99.9% risk-less activity where rewards exceed the dangers by several orders of magnitude.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2930
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:36:45 -
[219] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Risk being introduced into a 99.9% risk-less activity where rewards exceed the dangers by several orders of magnitude.
Oh for God's sake. A completely un-substantiated number you've pulled out of your ass.
We have already established that quite a few JFs die every few days, and that about half or so of those die in LS/NS.
And this is a ship that has severely limited fitting capabilities and serves pretty much one function. So, people have minimized risk while flying this ship.
So again, what is the problem? Or if you think there is too little risk how about instead of making **** up you try to come up with something based on facts. And tell us why should more JFs die? And because is the reason of a three year old.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
621
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:51:22 -
[220] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Oh for God's sake. A completely un-substantiated number you've pulled out of your ass.
Find me a JF kill with 250b in cargo, and you will have found a professional. Only that such a kill probably doesn't exist due to current broken mechanics.
Quote:We have already established that quite a few JFs die every few days
In Hisec.
Quote:and that about half or so of those die in LS/NS.
Amateurs.
Quote:And this is a ship that has severely limited fitting capabilities and serves pretty much one function.
So it is a freighter. Ohmygosh.
Quote:So, people have minimized risk while flying this ship.
To 0.01%.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2939
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:53:39 -
[221] - Quote
Ok, so you are just going to make **** up and spout nonsense.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
622
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:54:54 -
[222] - Quote
CCP knows how much is being moved risk-free.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1199
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 11:11:16 -
[223] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Ok, so you are just going to make **** up and spout nonsense.
They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.
It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Numbers and by extension reality don't lie. They also outweigh ill informed opinions always and forever. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
630
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 11:27:40 -
[224] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.
It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Couldn't agree more.
Out of the undock with 350k+ m3 to the safety of another undock lightyears away and in 0.0/LS space at the click of a button - and they call it reasonable and balanced.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16389
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 12:21:13 -
[225] - Quote
Let's make it so that freighters can't warp too or from closer than 10km or an npc station as well!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
632
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 12:28:04 -
[226] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Let's make it so that freighters can't warp too or from closer than 10km or an npc station as well!
Supernaise trolling.
It's not like they are subject to risk everytime at the outbound gate of a new system, amrite?
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2944
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 16:43:20 -
[227] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:
They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.
It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Couldn't agree more. Out of the undock with 350k+ m3 to the safety of another undock lightyears away and in 0.0/LS space at the click of a button - and they call it reasonable and balanced.
And yet they still die.
So we already know using a JF entails risk. Now, why should that be higher?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
639
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 17:04:59 -
[228] - Quote
Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos.
Likewise for SKYNET.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1200
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:15:53 -
[229] - Quote
If you're trying to equate freight with projecting offgrid applied DPS...I dont have words for the fail.
How many JF need to die before you concede they're actually not invulnerable? Basic math says >=1 and you're wrong, but seeing as you're not happy with SEVERAL HUNDRED losses over a 6 months....what's the number before they're not "invulnerable"? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:27:03 -
[230] - Quote
The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2944
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:27:23 -
[231] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Likewise for SKYNET.
There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs. Apples, oranges and all that kind of stuff.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:29:46 -
[232] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Likewise for SKYNET. There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs.
An exploit is an exploit is an exploit, though exploit is a heavy word, so lets call it a broken valid mechanic. Valid until it isn't.
Donuts do taste nice, though one can get fat and complacent as a result.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2944
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:32:31 -
[233] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all.
But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar.
That's fine though, you keep undermining your own credibility here with your inability to put forward a cogent argument.
Seriously, if you could show an actual problem I'd be willing to read it, think about, Hell I'd even consider helping to look at data. But all you do is keep making the same statement over and over that is simply untrue as if mere repetition will make it true.
I goes like this, "I think that the risk JFs currently face is too low. It is too low because......"
The OP failed to do this. His main beef was, "I can't think of a way to kill them." But as we've seen plenty of JFs die, both in HS and LS/NS. People are clearly doing it, so he needs to also figure it out like they did...or maybe go get into their corp/alliance/group/whatever and learn from them.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:36:18 -
[234] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all. But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar.
I'm fine, thanks.
The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all.
Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, "Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", "Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth.
Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data.
Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2946
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:38:59 -
[235] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Likewise for SKYNET. There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs. An exploit is an exploit is an exploit, though exploit is a heavy word, so lets call it a valid mechanic. Until it isn't. Donuts do taste nice, though one can get fat and complacent as a result.
You do understand you are using fallacious reasoning....right? If Bob is cheating that does mean Tom is. You point to mechanics that were later deemed either exploits or not the way the game was intended to be played. There are many, many other instances.
This is Iroquoiss logic:
1. Nano-speed HACs were considered to be OP and not good for the game. 2. Nano-HACs were nerfed. 3. Therefore, interceptors are bad for the game.
1 and 2 are true, but the leap from 2 to 3 is completely unsupported.
Here is another:
1. Drone assist is was not intended to lead to skynetting. 2. Drone assist is nerfed. 3. Therefore JF's have too little risk.
Again, 1 and 2 are true. But leaping from 2 to 3 is simply nonsense. There is no way to make even the slightest connection.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1201
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:43:53 -
[236] - Quote
Having tried to use logic, data and reasoning, I've now dropped to the level of the opposition. Thus allow me to retort with the same level of reasoning.
JF are not broken in the risk reward scheme. Because. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:45:44 -
[237] - Quote
Yes, data is indeed interesting.
For the last 7 years, or since record began on zKillboard, the JF count sums up to 3,954 freighters killed, or 1.54 per day with majority being in Hisec.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2946
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:45:49 -
[238] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all. But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar. I'm fine, thanks. The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all. Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, " Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", " Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth. Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data. Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km.
You keep mixing apples and oranges.
Citadels, unlike stations and outposts, will have something very different, namely guns. And while this could be a change CCP implements there are other ways to nerf JFs AND also provide an increase in risk, but one that can still be managed. For example, limiting jump range would mean more jumps and mean more chances for something to go wrong at each jump.
And pointing to anecdotes is not very persuasive. Yes, undocking from a bubbled station with dreads outside is not good. Nor is using a JF to deploy a POS with or without neutrals in system (for the love of God use a blockade runner). So you have found a couple of foolish moves...out of several hundred. Yes, that clearly and totally proves your point.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2946
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:47:25 -
[239] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Yes, data is indeed interesting. For the last 7 years, or since record began on zKillboard, the JF count sums up to 3,954 freighters killed, or 1.54 per day with majority being in Hisec.
I claim you are lying on the Hi Sec part. We have already seen that LS/NS accounts for 50% of the Rhea kills in a little over the last 6 months. I do not believe you have done any analysis beyond that. You are once again making things up out of thin air.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
643
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 19:48:33 -
[240] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.
That is all. But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar. I'm fine, thanks. The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all. Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, " Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", " Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth. Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data. Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km. You keep mixing apples and oranges. Citadels, unlike stations and outposts, will have something very different, namely guns. And while this could be a change CCP implements there are other ways to nerf JFs AND also provide an increase in risk, but one that can still be managed.
Precisely the point.
It's going to apply to all stations, however.
Teckos Pech wrote: I claim you are lying on the Hi Sec part. We have already seen that LS/NS accounts for 50% of the Rhea kills in a little over the last 6 months. I do not believe you have done any analysis beyond that. You are once again making things up out of thin air.
Exact statistics and distribution for all of the four Jump Freighters is welcome.
We await eagerly.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |