Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 .. 13 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 19 post(s) |
|
CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
851
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Greyscale comes bearing news of anomaly changes that will be a part of Crucible, the upcoming Winter Expansion.
Please read the blog here, and leave your feedback and questions in the thread. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |
|
Kim Telkin
Love for You Forsaken.Empire
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
whee! First?
:) |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:
First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.
Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;) |
|
SilentSkills
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c318/mrelzebub/mal_hesitant.gif
|
Ager Agemo
I N E X T R E M I S Fidelas Constans
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
5th? |
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Make true sec adjustable trough players actions and let the players adjust it our selves!
This idea can be extended to low-sec as well... just a thought! |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:
First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.
Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
Sounds good. DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Vicar2008
Mindstar Technology Executive Outcomes
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
You have buffed the Anoms, great sure, but in that Blog maybe i am reading it wrong, but are the way they are being distrubuted being relaxed also? Or are they still being reserved in the True sec status regions, aka 0.00 systems still seeing non, 0.40 mabe seeing one and the -0.80 to -1.00 getting the best? |
Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate POD-SQUAD
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
cool, that's quite nice. so you de-facto buffed it. awesum. |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
176
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vicar2008 wrote:You have buffed the Anoms, great sure, but in that Blog maybe i am reading it wrong, but are the way they are being distrubuted being relaxed also? Or are they still being reserved in the True sec status regions, aka 0.00 systems still seeing non, -0.40 mabe seeing one and the -0.80 to -1.00 getting the best?
We're not changing the distribution at this time, BUT we're not changing it because a lot of the "not-good" sites are being upgraded to "really very good". 0.00-ish systems will have the same sites in, for example, but those sites should be considerably better than they currently are. |
|
|
Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon Intrepid Crossing
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vicar2008 wrote:You have buffed the Anoms, great sure, but in that Blog maybe i am reading it wrong, but are the way they are being distrubuted being relaxed also? Or are they still being reserved in the True sec status regions, aka 0.00 systems still seeing non, -0.40 mabe seeing one and the -0.80 to -1.00 getting the best?
Yes, according to the blog as I read it they were going to redistribute the regions but are holding off on it to see how this buff goes. My question is though how will this affect the drone regions (if at all) as there is already ALOT of minerals coming from the hordes that are available now. -T |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect).
:"Apology Accepted, Captain Needa":
To avoid future issues, could you perhaps put up some posters on CCP walls that say "Ignoring angry threads for too long leads to people unsubscribing and people unsubscribing leads to CCP Hilmar freaking out with his Excel sheets and that leads to suffering..." or something?
Not that any of what happened a few months was specifically your fault, it was more of a General Failure In Developing EVE *thespaceshipgame*... and it's too late to dwell in any of that. What matters is that it genuinely seems that CCP suddenly cares about their game again!
|
StukaBee
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
The moral of this story is to never stop posting. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
StukaBee wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;) The moral of this story is to never stop posting.
Quoting For Truth. This. So much this. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
61
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
They also refresh faster now to becouse of the clocky ship nerf. With all the changes a wait before they up the amount per zone is a good idea but what do i know. |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
So how do these revised sites compare to highsec Incursion running? |
Efraya
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Narwhals Ate My Duck
36
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
God damn nullbears and their hurf blurf and risk versus reward adverse CCP.
Make eve hard ffs.
WSpace; Best space. |
Didona Carpenito
Akimamur Industries
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
err |
StukaBee
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'd very much like to see a greater variation in the types of anomalies available (maybe even randomised spawns), any chance of this in the future?
Either way, good to see that things are changing.
|
Freelancer'Spb
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
It would be better to nerf sanctums and heavens in isk/ehp value to take them in line with other anomalies. These anomalies already are paradise farmlands for bots.
Also two suggestions: Make npc's in anomalies more smart, like in incursions. Make scanned anomalies appear into the space and overview like belts. This thing in the solarsystem map is too awkward . |
|
Kaaletram Lothyrawir
Ignus Astrum The Veyr Collective
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
I must say that I have really been impressed with the amount of effort that has been put in by all members of the dev team in listening to and addressing so many of the issues that have been causing long term players grief. From the sounds of this particular blog it seems to be a good start. I am still of the opinion that the number and distribution of the sites needs to be tweaked a bit but I remain optimistic about it for the road ahead |
Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
So how does the improved sites compare to running Level IV missions in highsec? |
BigCountry
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK.. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
206
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nice.
The way I read the blog, this also affects low-sec anomalies - is that correct?
Can you give rough ISK:EHP values for the smaller sites, e.g. hubs, ports, rally points and yards? :-] |
Lars Erlkonig
Discrete Solutions Ltd. Mean Coalition
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Have you also looked at the anomalies in low sec, or are they going to stay as they are? |
Joe Skellington
Caldari Elite Force Independence..
28
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Good to see this. -á-á |\_/|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \ |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
555
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Vicar2008 wrote:You have buffed the Anoms, great sure, but in that Blog maybe i am reading it wrong, but are the way they are being distrubuted being relaxed also? Or are they still being reserved in the True sec status regions, aka 0.00 systems still seeing non, -0.40 mabe seeing one and the -0.80 to -1.00 getting the best? We're not changing the distribution at this time, BUT we're not changing it because a lot of the "not-good" sites are being upgraded to "really very good". 0.00-ish systems will have the same sites in, for example, but those sites should be considerably better than they currently are.
Have you considered, if I may, the possibility that distribution is one of the main problems in null? By grouping the best into pockets of null you encourage mega-alliances to control those specific pockets leaving surrounding areas much more devoid. It may be worth considering changing the sec stat of many systems to lower in order to smear the best systems across much larger areas of space... areas too large for the megas to claim all of without stretching themselves too thin. This would open even more space for smaller alliances to try and get a foothold in... space that would really be worth going for and not the sloppy seconds of the megas.
Just a thought. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
I personly learned that forlorn hubs and such were okay after the nerf... but that was mainly because I was using a pimped out vindicator...
The main problem with those compared to the sanctums was that you could finish them very very fast... so the actual lost "isk/hour" was in the warping between anomalies!
So... that said, I could earn about 25-30mil/20 mins, in both sanctums and forlorn hubs.
It's the amount of battleships and spawns that makes the difference :P, it's fine that they are worth less than in a sanctum, I just want more of them so I don't have to warp between new anomalies compared to a sanctum |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Have you considered, if I may, the possibility that distribution is one of the main problems in null? By grouping the best into pockets of null you encourage mega-alliances to control those specific pockets leaving surrounding areas much more devoid. It may be worth considering changing the sec stat of many systems to lower in order to smear the best systems across much larger areas of space... areas too large for the megas to claim all of without stretching themselves too thin. This would open even more space for smaller alliances to try and get a foothold in... space that would really be worth going for and not the sloppy seconds of the megas.
Just a thought.
The only fix for that is to adjust power projection by nerfing jump drives and other forms of travel, not in changing anomaly distribution itself. The original implementation had what you're proposing and all it led to was even more grossly inflated game income while guys searching for a foothold were given the old super capital boot. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
59
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
StukaBee wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;) The moral of this story is to never stop posting.
this ^ Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
555
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Have you considered, if I may, the possibility that distribution is one of the main problems in null? By grouping the best into pockets of null you encourage mega-alliances to control those specific pockets leaving surrounding areas much more devoid. It may be worth considering changing the sec stat of many systems to lower in order to smear the best systems across much larger areas of space... areas too large for the megas to claim all of without stretching themselves too thin. This would open even more space for smaller alliances to try and get a foothold in... space that would really be worth going for and not the sloppy seconds of the megas.
Just a thought. The only fix for that is to adjust power projection by nerfing jump drives and other forms of travel, not in changing anomaly distribution itself. The original implementation had what you're proposing and all it led to was even more grossly inflated game income while guys searching for a foothold were given the old super capital boot.
Or both perhaps? Make more space away from the current megas worth claiming as quality space while limiting the power projection as you mention? Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
TheButcherPete
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:17:00 -
[32] - Quote
Man.... I was brought much joy as a fellow corpmate warped to a new Haven anomalie. His screams and whimpers as the NPCs chipped at the structure of his Machariel in which he got stuck on a structure and nearly popped
ME LIKEY THE NEW ANOMS :D
+1 CCP GÖÑ /me snugglehump you long time GÖÑ
~ I AM PETEBBA |
Dierdra Vaal
Veto. Veto Corp
57
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:
Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal
Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite?
Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?
Veto #205 * * * Director Emeritus at EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Or both perhaps? Make more space away from the current megas worth claiming as quality space while limiting the power projection as you mention?
If someone else doesn't have anything better than you do, there's little incentive to go out and fight for that other person's something. Without conflict, 0.0 enters stagnation. With stagnation, ships don't blow up, the gears of the game economy don't turn, and nobody is actually happy because the only purpose of PVP becomes PVP itself.
Actually, at this point, that's pretty much how it already is.
There are some grotesque faucets in high security space that need to be dealt with. As of planetary interaction, there are far fewer ISK sinks to pull money away from the economy. There are some seriously major problems that need to be addressed before more inflation is introduced to the game. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
245
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
Thank you Greyscale for addressing the players' concerns directly.
I can only imagine the frustration reading these forums could cause, as I get very frustrated and I'm only a player.
One thing that could help your cause (as in all Devs) is to NOT ignore the players ( I don't just mean you). The more transparency the better. The daily dev blogs are great, but a list of "upcoming blogs and dates" would be better.
While the winter expansion looks great, discontent grows again as CCP is NOT telling us about FW, or AF or Hybrids (beyond 8th of November). Just be upfront about what you're doing. Remember someone waiting for any news feels like a day is a week, and that doesn't help engender good will in spite of all the GOOD you guys are doing.
Thanks AG Repair Drones should be able to repair anyone ... really, they should. -áThink of them as the first targetable subsystem if you're worried about PvP and for missions if someone wants Rep drones over a flight of Hobs, who cares. -áThere is no reasonable objection here other than it's always been that way (so was RR until recently). |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
29
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
I'm holding judgment.....
I would like a more detailed breakdown of the precise changes per anomily, numbers and values.
Will this be enough to reverse the disaster from March and allow alot of us smaller guys to rebuild our corporations? Time will tell I guess. I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
1067
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
The changes are welcome, but the most important line in the blog is "We are however actively planning on revisiting the situation in a few months to make sure we've hit the mark properly this time."
I'm sure everyone is happy that the renewed focus on EVE and FiS provides more resources for such rapid iteration. CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism! CSM 6 Activities Summary | My CSM blog |
Admiral Thorn
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:22:00 -
[38] - Quote
BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK..
This...
|
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Admiral Thorn wrote:BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK.. This...
No offense meant, but everything about the drone regions and the products that come out of them are utterly terrible, to the point of deserving to be thrown out and redone. I can't think of any single thing that's done more damage to Eve Online than the parallel presence of jump drives, jump freighters, and drone alloys.
Considering the volume of super capitals that were built on the back of drone alloys, I have no sympathies for your plight. |
Louis deGuerre
Malevolence. Void Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:31:00 -
[40] - Quote
I find it hard to get an idea about the impact of this, but I am glad something has been done.
What I would really like to see is dynamic distribution of anomalies according to space usage. Too much killing in one system, less sites, abandoned systems, more sites. This would do wonders for 0.0, force players to move around (thinking of botting here too !), more kills on gates, it would solve so many problems...
Peace
FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! |
|
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
Wrong. |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
112
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:39:00 -
[42] - Quote
not sure i understand well what changed... when this change will be on singularity so we can see by ourself what changed ? (and well not sure it can be easily tested as military indexes must be at 0 on sisi :/) |
xxxak
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
65
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:44:00 -
[43] - Quote
Simple equation to consider, CCP:
More isk per player = more confidence = more pvp = more fun.
More fun = more subs = more money for CCP.
EVE is MMO on haedmode. The new changes don't go far enough to bring isk back to line-level troops. Not everyone has moon goo or likes high sec missions :/ Nerfing supers is not going to help the N+1/Blob problem. It will just mean that superpilots will be even more likely to want to blob. Think more creatively. Support the idea of a subcap "assault bomber." |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
55
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:44:00 -
[44] - Quote
Dierdra Vaal wrote:My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite? Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?
^^^^^ Very Much This....
How are you going to balance the very large influx of isk that profitable anoms bring in????
I don't think voiding HS ganker insurances is enough of an isk sink to rectify this! |
Dziu
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
So what is this dev blog all about anyway? Your thinking to increase the value of some sites or you just brag about doing some future stuff? :) |
S8nt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:49:00 -
[46] - Quote
Hi,
With the calculations now done with these Anomalies, could you please now go work out the following:
- ISK per hour for mining in belts in say angel space where there is a crapload of ABC's - ISK per hour mining in say Tribute where there is no ABC's - ISK per hour mining in system upgraded Grav sites at say a resonable level 3 or 4?
Please CCP, if there is one thing you do this expansion, please fix mining so that it doesn't have to be bot run to make a semi decent income.
S8nt |
Ayesha Arkaral
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:49:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums)
I know exactly how this feels, as a single developer of some Android apps. I used to do it as a hobby, working extra hours and getting 4 hours of sleep. I was really proud about the features I worked on. Then, I published it, and angry, confused emails just pour in. It sucks. I haven't checked that email in months. I just can't do it anymore. Luckily it's not my full time job - a difference in our situations.
I started trying to get a family member to be a buffer and check the email for me, jotting down main ideas. Even they got tired of it. I hope you guys can employ an intern or something to do that |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
28
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:50:00 -
[48] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Dierdra Vaal wrote:My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite? Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole? ^^^^^ Very Much This.... How are you going to balance the very large influx of isk that profitable anoms bring in???? I don't think voiding HS ganker insurances is enough of an isk sink to rectify this!
They could always nerf those L4 Missions
|
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
xxxak wrote:Simple equation to consider, CCP:
More isk per player = more confidence = more pvp = more fun.
More fun = more subs = more money for CCP.
EVE is MMO on haedmode. The new changes don't go far enough to bring isk back to line-level troops. Not everyone has moon goo or likes high sec missions :/
That honestly isn't how it works. If PVP for the sake of PVP was the most fun you could have, people would duke it out on the test servers even more than they do today. The real driver is meaningful PVP.
More ISK and materials means there is less impact from losses through a devaluation of individual assets. Less value in destroying something means less fun in destroying it.
Ya Huei wrote:They could always nerf those L4 Missions
It's far more important that they nerf Incursions. |
Ulair Memmet
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:50:00 -
[50] - Quote
That whole discussion is so sad. The only thing that anomalies are, are a GRIND. Nothing more. They aren't fun. And if they weren't connected to the sov system, they wouldn't even be worth a devblog.
They are always the same: [Warp to location]->+[kill everything in sight]->?[kill faction spawn]->get bacon The only random exciting element is whether you'll get a faction spawn or not. Everything else is static and can be looked up... Nothing random.
This of course is true for almost all pve-content (missions, exploration, wormholes, incursions). And it's frustrating. EVE is all about PVP, but that doesn't mean the PVE content needs to suck.
The first step in the right direction where the escalations. I really liked those. But even those follow the same principle and once you see the title of the escalation you already know what you are gonna see, what you are gonna fight and what you are gonna get for it. The only random element is whether the escalation stops before the last plex...
I once posted an idea to fix this in the old F&I forums on how to maybe make things more interresting. I'll just post it again and hope for a miracle: Randomized modular missions |
|
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises Spectrum Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:53:00 -
[51] - Quote
lol isk |
Crunchmeister
THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD.
87
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:54:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
That right there is a direct result of the new culture of open communication with your customers and actually listening to their concerns. The general positive mood on the forums when it comes to the game design aspect of things is because of your open communication. You've admitted to your mistakes, you've admitted you were wrong by not listening to the players, and you're now proactively trying to fix that. Devs are not only reading, but actively engaging the community in the various threads related to design, features, balancing, etc. And you're now actually openly taking the advice rather than ignoring it.
I just hope that now that you've been able to tangibly notice the effect of your actions on the community that it will encourage you to continue down this path. Only good things can come of that.
|
Kralin Ignatov
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ulair Memmet wrote:That whole discussion is so sad. The only thing that anomalies are, are a GRIND. Nothing more. They aren't fun. And if they weren't connected to the sov system, they wouldn't even be worth a devblog. They are always the same: [Warp to location]->+[kill everything in sight]->?[kill faction spawn]->get bacon The only random exciting element is whether you'll get a faction spawn or not. Everything else is static and can be looked up... Nothing random. This of course is true for almost all pve-content (missions, exploration, wormholes, incursions). And it's frustrating. EVE is all about PVP, but that doesn't mean the PVE content needs to suck. The first step in the right direction where the escalations. I really liked those. But even those follow the same principle and once you see the title of the escalation you already know what you are gonna see, what you are gonna fight and what you are gonna get for it. The only random element is whether the escalation stops before the last plex... I once posted an idea to fix this in the old F&I forums on how to maybe make things more interresting. I'll just post it again and hope for a miracle: Randomized modular missions
Holy ****, thats a good idea |
StukaBee
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:Ya Huei wrote:They could always nerf those L4 Missions It's far more important that they nerf Incursions.
Best to be on the safe side, nerf them both.
|
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
StukaBee wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;) The moral of this story is to never stop badposting.
^^^ Fixed for you.
Eve forums is wonderful for one reason. Many of which are the volume of trolling. |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
92
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:03:00 -
[56] - Quote
Crunchmeister wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;) That right there is a direct result of the new culture of open communication with your customers and actually listening to their concerns. The general positive mood on the forums when it comes to the game design aspect of things is because of your open communication. You've admitted to your mistakes, you've admitted you were wrong by not listening to the players, and you're now proactively trying to fix that. Devs are not only reading, but actively engaging the community in the various threads related to design, features, balancing, etc. And you're now actually openly taking the advice rather than ignoring it. I just hope that now that you've been able to tangibly notice the effect of your actions on the community that it will encourage you to continue down this path.
THIS!!!!
Crunchmeister wrote: Only good things can come of that.
I beg to differ.
If they head my wishes regarding the tornado, that ship would have the HP and shield recharge rate of a Drake, the basespeed of a Machariel, the Dronebay of an Mymidon and two more medslots...
I think you get the Point.
Listen to the user is good and necessary. Turning Eve into "Hello Kitty Online II" is [insert random sh*t here]
DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Letrange
Red Horizon Inc Cascade Probable
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:07:00 -
[57] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
As much as the pain of loosing good co-workers must have been, I can only hope that the new direction that Management is steering you in holds the course. I do have some questions regarding the work you did over the summer ruminating on long term plans for Null sec revamp and changes. I sincerely hope that all that wasn't abandoned in the rush to get "something" out for this winter expansion. I can't help but think you guys (CCP as a whole) need to break out of the "plan the entire release and deliver it in 6 months" model and more "plan out some long term stuff with staged deliveries every 6 months". Ideally a mix of both models where you have some long term stuff incoming along with shorter term stuff. The 6 month planning sessions can then be used to determine if some incoming long term stuff is worthy of being the focus of the expansion or if a shorter term item is going to get the focus.
An example: Starbase changes. You'll probably want to work on some smaller scale example solutions that will vet what you intend to do for the larger stations. This might be a good way to introduce your "small steading" items that would introduce mechanism that when scaled up would end up being core technology for the larger starbases. So you would plan out the mechanism and the way they would scale and make the delivery of the small steading stuff in one expansion then the next expansion would work on the larger starbases and incorporate feedback from the deployment of the steadings (and oh say around 100-300k testers depending on how popular that item becomes) |
Zimmy Zeta
Battle Force Industries
36
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:08:00 -
[58] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:
...... That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can,.....
Thanks for being so honest. But you do realize that all this poison spitting was because we care for eve? If we wouldn`t, we would just unsub, shave our neckbeards, move out of mom's basement and get a job. It is not possible to care for eve without caring for ccp as well, that means every one of you. So, welcome back to the forums, Greyscale, and have a free hug from me.
|
Jojo Yohan
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:09:00 -
[59] - Quote
What about the nerf to the Drone Horde anomaly that is currently on Sisi. It appears that you're cutting down the ISK/hour by at least a factor of 2 on that one. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
55
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:11:00 -
[60] - Quote
Kralin Ignatov wrote:Ulair Memmet wrote:That whole discussion is so sad. The only thing that anomalies are, are a GRIND. Nothing more. They aren't fun. And if they weren't connected to the sov system, they wouldn't even be worth a devblog. They are always the same: [Warp to location]->+[kill everything in sight]->?[kill faction spawn]->get bacon The only random exciting element is whether you'll get a faction spawn or not. Everything else is static and can be looked up... Nothing random. This of course is true for almost all pve-content (missions, exploration, wormholes, incursions). And it's frustrating. EVE is all about PVP, but that doesn't mean the PVE content needs to suck. The first step in the right direction where the escalations. I really liked those. But even those follow the same principle and once you see the title of the escalation you already know what you are gonna see, what you are gonna fight and what you are gonna get for it. The only random element is whether the escalation stops before the last plex... I once posted an idea to fix this in the old F&I forums on how to maybe make things more interresting. I'll just post it again and hope for a miracle: Randomized modular missions Holy ****, thats a good idea
A few things I like: 1.) Use escalations to increase the value of anoms... 2.) Randomize the triggers at times.
At the same point in time, escalations have problems too: 1.) They send you too far. In my experience, escalations always take me to the busiest system around 8 systems away. And then repeat... such that to finish the a 4-time escalation train I'm so deep in enemy territory that I have to use cheesy methods to beat them (speed tanking drams w/ sb's, cloaky nullified t3's, BO, etc). For a small alliance living in hostile space, this makes them impractical to do for their rewards.
2.) A lot of escalations are buggy... meaning they don't spawn right, etc.
|
|
Dalton Vanadis
Miranda United F0RCEFUL ENTRY
427
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:17:00 -
[61] - Quote
Largo Coronet wrote:So how does the improved sites compare to running Level IV missions in highsec?
It used to be low-end sites (as in current TQ) gets you about the same ISK/hr as level IV's if you're smart about how you choose the sites. This will probably jump it up to beat out the level IV's.
However, the real concern is more anom's v. incursions. As with incursions, a good fleet can easily pull in 100 mil every hour and a half. Low end anoms and level IV's are not even close to this currently, so we shall see how that plays out since they're tweaking how much ISK you can make off the low-ends... |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
129
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:21:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
When all of the Jita spammers stop for 2-3 hours the morning that ship spinning was back, and at least 2-3 people I personally know made comments of "omg, ship spinning I miss you, I'm crying here" -I think something profound and positive definitely happened and the mood is getting better.
People are generally going to be bastards, but EVE has always had a positive attitude of bastard. It has been a bit ugly the last year mostly.
The work you guys have been doing to enact completion of your goals in the last couple months since the 'mea culpa' is truly great - there is no reason that this kind of work has to be mutually exclusive of other advancements with CCP. I'm excited to see all the great things you have lined up - and that includes WOD and Incarna interiors once we get EVE into a place that it deserves to be - with advancements that it deserves to have and resources that will open up the experience to more subscribers as well.
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Takon Orlani
Excrutiating Dirge
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:22:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Vicar2008 wrote:You have buffed the Anoms, great sure, but in that Blog maybe i am reading it wrong, but are the way they are being distrubuted being relaxed also? Or are they still being reserved in the True sec status regions, aka 0.00 systems still seeing non, -0.40 mabe seeing one and the -0.80 to -1.00 getting the best? We're not changing the distribution at this time, BUT we're not changing it because a lot of the "not-good" sites are being upgraded to "really very good". 0.00-ish systems will have the same sites in, for example, but those sites should be considerably better than they currently are.
What about NPC null-sec? What about moon distribution?
Some NPC null needs love, some is perfect, and some are just awful for isk (Great Wildlands, Syndicate).
Tech moons, what else do I need to say. You want more money in other people's pockets? Put a few tech moons in every region in eve. Leave the majority in one spot, but give the other regions something to fight over. Especially the NPC regions.
Better idea: Move all tech moons to NPC null. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
140
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:
First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.
Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort
to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
your second point here is where i still feel like shooting you in the face tbh(move me to jove space and i will..lol).
there was so many constructive comments in the anom nerf feedback that you didnt comment on, you switched off. all we got was im right your wrong now fo responce. while i can understand not wanting to read negative feedback. you have to face the fact that it was you that fucked0.0 with that change and turned it back into an empty wasteland in the most part, while at the same time screwing the groups you claimed to help the most.
with that said, i do hope your plans to improve it work out. i hope this is just the tip of the changes and those changes include reducing payouts inhigh sec incursions to below the payouts of anoms.
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
44
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:32:00 -
[65] - Quote
Dierdra Vaal wrote:My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite? Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?
This is definitely something that's crossed my mind. I guess there's a fairly substantial sink coming in the form of four new BPOs which will be bought in their thousands, I can see that removing several trillion isk in the first month or so but I'd guess that to be a fairly spikey sink, trailing off fairly rapidly to a low background level. |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:32:00 -
[66] - Quote
You have some secret plan to rebalance the isk faucet / sink ratio that this massive buff of 0.0 anomalies is going to make even worse right? I believe it's one of CCP Dr.EyjoG Dev Blogs (I'll find and link it later) that showed 0.0 rat farming was responsible for this huge imbalance. You either need to massively nerf isk payouts for rats and replace them with shiny items and/or consumables or you need to create a gigantic isk sink (seriously massive, it needs to be 2-5x the size of all current sinks given the #'s out of Dr. Eyjo's blog just so that the isk faucet isn't more than double all sinks combined). |
Dalton Vanadis
Miranda United F0RCEFUL ENTRY
427
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:33:00 -
[67] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Vicar2008 wrote:You have buffed the Anoms, great sure, but in that Blog maybe i am reading it wrong, but are the way they are being distrubuted being relaxed also? Or are they still being reserved in the True sec status regions, aka 0.00 systems still seeing non, -0.40 mabe seeing one and the -0.80 to -1.00 getting the best? We're not changing the distribution at this time, BUT we're not changing it because a lot of the "not-good" sites are being upgraded to "really very good". 0.00-ish systems will have the same sites in, for example, but those sites should be considerably better than they currently are. Have you considered, if I may, the possibility that distribution is one of the main problems in null? By grouping the best into pockets of null you encourage mega-alliances to control those specific pockets leaving surrounding areas much more devoid. It may be worth considering changing the sec stat of many systems to lower in order to smear the best systems across much larger areas of space... areas too large for the megas to claim all of without stretching themselves too thin. This would open even more space for smaller alliances to try and get a foothold in... space that would really be worth going for and not the sloppy seconds of the megas. Just a thought.
Doesn't really matter, if they did that the power blocks would just realign their NAP agreements. The Eastern side of the map would just reorient politically within itself, same with the CF coaltion and the western side of the map; moving renters or pets out of the way. Really, doing that might end up hurting the small alliances that come in as renters and pets (as they get the 'crappy' space), so it would be harder for the 'small' alliances to do things like own their own constellation as the big boys will want to have the iHub and sov so they can deal with the upgrades. Really, from a political standpoint what CCP is doing right now seems like it will benefit those small renters and pets; they'll be able to pull more money off of space that their big blue mega alliance friends will still consider relatively unworthy for several aspects.
But I could be blowing smoke on this one.
While I have the time, instead of taking up another forum post: CCP Greyscale, I'm glad you've come back to the forums, I and many of my fellow EVE players have certainly noticed the increased presence of the devs. In regards to this specific announcement, it looks really neat and it looks like it will really help out some of the small guys and do a lot for fixing some of the population movements seen since the first anom nerf. From my personal view on devs on forums, I f*cking love it. It's always good to know that someone is listening and taking your words seriously. This absolute deluge of information is stellar (though admittedly, you guys dropping stuff on SiSi a week before the dev blog kinda steals the thunder from the dev blog), and overall this past month or two has really increased my confidence with CCP as a whole and the viability of EVE. So all I can say is, kudos to the entire CCP staff for beginning to renew the confidence of your customer through hard work and great communication; I look forward to being amazed by this awesome game for yet another year now. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
143
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:34:00 -
[68] - Quote
CCP Greyscale, that "ISK per EHP" metric sounds like an interesting measure. What are L4 missions like on that measure? What are Incursions like? (For incursions you need to consider that many sites can be done by just killing the trigger ships, no need to kill all ships). CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Dalton Vanadis
Miranda United F0RCEFUL ENTRY
427
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:44:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tekota wrote:Dierdra Vaal wrote:My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite? Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole? This is definitely something that's crossed my mind. I guess there's a fairly substantial sink coming in the form of four new BPOs which will be bought in their thousands, I can see that removing several trillion isk in the first month or so but I'd guess that to be a fairly spikey sink, trailing off fairly rapidly to a low background level.
I have pondered this as well, though I think a large part of the current ISK inflation is more from being able to pull a billion or more a day in high sec with a dedicated incursion fleet than 0.0 bot at this point (the bots have always been around, but the gigantic inflation spike over the last year coincides nicely with Incursions becoming more cemented)
I would be curious as to what CCP's plan is on this, any giant ISK sink they create is going to **** off a lot of people, turn off an ISK faucet and you get the response you got to the first anom nerf. They would have to create an ISK sink that everyone wants to pour money into willingly, and that would require a lot of ISK to exit the system for it to have any real use... Perhaps using ISK in NPC stations to increase chance of successful invention for T2 BPC's, or maybe an absolutely gigantic ISK requirement to have a special NPC service turn a T2 BPC into a BPO (kind of favors the big alliances, but they hold most of the ISK in game anyway, plus it would likely drop the price on a lot of T2 items; not sure if that's favorable or not, but it might get more people buying them and blowing them up), maybe have any of those T2 BPO's suddenly made have a timer before they expire out (so as many runs as you can fit in a 2 month span, or something) so that you have to keep pouring ISK into the system to maintain the very desirable benefits. Probably stupid infeasible ideas, but hey, might as well try |
Gizan
Hounds Of War Bloodbound.
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:54:00 -
[70] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Vicar2008 wrote:You have buffed the Anoms, great sure, but in that Blog maybe i am reading it wrong, but are the way they are being distrubuted being relaxed also? Or are they still being reserved in the True sec status regions, aka 0.00 systems still seeing non, -0.40 mabe seeing one and the -0.80 to -1.00 getting the best? We're not changing the distribution at this time, BUT we're not changing it because a lot of the "not-good" sites are being upgraded to "really very good". 0.00-ish systems will have the same sites in, for example, but those sites should be considerably better than they currently are.
angel fosaken hubs are already MORE isk/hour then the "factory haven" because there are no frigs to kill... |
|
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:55:00 -
[71] - Quote
In many regions to aren't that many system to fight about, because there are to few. Moongoo is the reason to fight about regions for alliances but not anomalies, because the ROI is to bad. And if there is one system in the constelation a cloaky ship with covert cyno ship is waiting on every pilot running anomalies. We did this and others do it to us. But there is no alternative system to make isk. I addition new anomalies spawning not instandly so there is always a lack of new anomalies, that costs ISK. An alliance with 300 active member has to share 2-4 systems and that is a pain, because you have to search for an free anomaly for at least 10min, even when you are in a group, caused by the spawntime.
Summary:
1) The ROI for a corp is bad 2) One ship with covert cyno is able to block a -1 system 3) The spawntime causes a lack of new anomalies. 4) Most smaller alliances have no more than 2 valuable systems.
|
Arte
Aura. Talocan United
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 17:16:00 -
[72] - Quote
Greyscale wrote:The first step we're taking is to undertake a thorough review and rebalance of the existing anomaly content. This is something we would have liked to do as part of the initial changes, but we didn't have the time available. We've now made time That comment is indicative of the trend that was happening at the time that included the public relations howlers on release of incursions.
It kind of reads "we had an idea of balancing something, and should have researched it but didn't have the time so we went ahead anyway without knowing what the impact would be"
I'm glad you've made the time now and are gracious enough to revisit this an accepted error. Keep your current MO going and you'll win a few people back I'm sure. |
zxsteel
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 17:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
This shout is to "CCP Greyscale", since you say your reading the topic's. sounds good.
What I don't understand is the facts of dronelands get the 5 level spawns, the more you upgrade the more spawns you get. So why can't this idea be added on to other parts of space. Also even the most crap systems NO ONE will ever use. Should place out more income then a level 4 mission in one hour. What's since of running 0.0 complex when I can do so much better inursions.
10.5 million per complex in group - hour 100 million - NO RISK 75 million per set of 10 complexs - soloing level fours - NO RISK 55 million per hour of 12 comples - soloing 0.0 - WITH RISK
So I ask did you really think about how ou beef up the iskes per hour per anomalies ?
|
mkint
337
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 17:38:00 -
[74] - Quote
The number one thing this doesn't fix is trust.
Consider, last batch of small/medium alliances to go out to try and got sov flew out there, invested billions of isk, and had it literally taken away on a whim. All of a sudden, those expensive upgrades became worthless. And why? Because some jackass dev decided he wanted to change something without researching it, thinking through the consequences, or reading any feedback.
When the next batch of alliances starts thinking about moving out to get sov and they ask their more veteran members what to do, the response will be "don't bother. CCP will just f*ck it up again." Then the alliance will get bored, fall apart, and start unsubbing.
This change fixes nothing. It will still be pants-on-head-ruhtarded for anybody to go out and try to get new sov until AFTER they are reasonably confident you (CCP) have abandoned it for long enough for it to be safe. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
332
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 17:41:00 -
[75] - Quote
With the feeling that this one might go unoticed by Grayscale:
What about the Forsaken Hubs? They are buggy, have been buggy since implementation, and at this moment they make 0.3 to 0.4 null systems quite frustrating.
What bug, you ask? Simple.. they spawn with no rats, and in some cases no amount of GM mojo can make them work again. We have to wait sometimes for 3 consecutive downtimes for them to spawn properly, only to bug out again the next day. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
Tarsas Phage
Pain Delivery.
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:06:00 -
[76] - Quote
BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK..
Oh cry me a river. Just how many billions in Plush Compound and other crap does your alliance/blues collectively pull out of the Drone Regions on a weekly basis?
I've been having a ball the past few months taking a close look at what leftovers you haul back to empire, and I swear, compared to the personal income abilities of other 0.0 alliances, you guys have absolutely no room to talk.
If you live in the Drone Regions and have a hard time making ISK by the bucketload, the problem is not CCP, the problem is YOU.
/T |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:09:00 -
[77] - Quote
Dierdra Vaal wrote:My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite? Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?
Yes, but perhaps people weren't *running* the prebuffed anomalies, they were just bearing it up in highsec and earning higher ISK/hour values. So the only relevant part for economic inflation is how much more ISK these new anomalies generate compared to equivalent highsec activities. |
Spitfork
Ecliptic Control Gypsy Band
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:13:00 -
[78] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:
First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.
Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
I can't agree with you. The original implementation is fine, it just doesn't work detached from everything else (i.e. make inferior truesec worse in terms of anomalies, but better in, perhaps, mining?). Of course people will whine if you close down their isk faucet and of course if one type of nullsec is less profitable than another (but equally dangerous at that) you're going to have a non-uniform population.
You're seeing a problem in trying to keep space non-uniform by properties and then you're expecting to see it uniformly populated?
Please try to consider the effects of having more isk faucets. If we see inflation from increased anomaly income that would be a nerf to other isk-making activities. Unless of course you somehow think that anomalies generate too little income and everything else generates more than enough. Somehow, as far as I recall, the absolute majority of isk in the game comes from NPC-shooting. Does it really need to be further boosted? |
BigCountry
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK.. Oh cry me a river. Just how many billions in Plush Compound and other crap does your alliance/blues collectively pull out of the Drone Regions on a weekly basis? I've been having a ball the past few months taking a close look at what leftovers you haul back to empire, and I swear, compared to the personal income abilities of other 0.0 alliances, you guys have absolutely no room to talk. If you live in the Drone Regions and have a hard time making ISK by the bucketload, the problem is not CCP, the problem is YOU. /T
LOL if i read correctly the OP by greyscale they found that sanctums were the best anomolies on TQ ... those arent in the droneregions ... and how much do yall make off of raw bounties and mod drops PLUS faction loot .....
So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:16:00 -
[80] - Quote
zxsteel wrote:This shout is to "CCP Greyscale", since you say your reading the topic's. sounds good. What I don't understand is the facts of dronelands get the 5 level spawns, the more you upgrade the more spawns you get. So why can't this idea be added on to other parts of space. Also even the most crap systems NO ONE will ever use. Should place out more income then a level 4 mission in one hour. What's since of running 0.0 complex when I can do so much better inursions. 10.5 million per complex in group - hour 100 million - NO RISK 75 million per set of 10 complexs - soloing level fours - NO RISK 55 million per hour of 12 comples - soloing 0.0 - WITH RISK So I ask did you really think about how ou beef up the iskes per hour per anomalies ?
Group activities should net more income per person than solo activities. So I guess it depends whether -you want more group pve content in nullsec. I get that its harder to do the Incursions there, so perhaps an adjustment could be made there. -you want solo content in null to outearn group content in highsec. The problem I see with that is the botting issues.. Maybe the best 0.0 anomalies should be rebalanced as C4-6 sleeper sites or standalone Incursion style sites? |
|
Tarsas Phage
Pain Delivery.
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:32:00 -
[81] - Quote
BigCountry wrote: So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK
My response was pointing out that your whining about things being harder in Drone Land is silly given the disproportionate amount guaranteed ISK you pull out of drone anoms. So what if they're harder... you'll still run them and still make bank on them.
The guys in Pirate rat space are beholden to the random number generator and have to wade through lots of competition to make their big ISK... you Drone guys, sitting in your numerous and heavily upgraded systems, which in some areas have a higher station density than some parts of lowsec, not even nearly as much.
All I see are the JFs coming back to empire loaded with 2-4bn ISK in drone leavings every 2-3 days, multiple times per week. I can only imagine that's just a portion of what is pulled out of all the hordes and other anoms the collective "you" run.
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:36:00 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:
First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.
Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;) Let's talk about this.
First: The anomaly change from earlier in the year was made with little or no communication at FanFest which immediately preceded the change. People, rightly, felt like you purposefully hid this change so that there was no opportunity to provide legitimate feedback (more likely an uprising and riot in Iceland).
Second: With only two weeks notice, the change negated billions in ISK invested into Outposts, IHubs, System Upgrades, etc. After 15 months of Dominion mechanics, you opted to give people very short notice that their investments were ****. While I understand that CCP considers that ISK as money in the bank (ISK sunk into the game and forever removed from player use), you managed to make *many* customers angry at your company. Pure speculation on my part, but this may not have been helpful when IncarnaGate rolled around a few months later.
Third: You gave purely speculative reasons for the change with zero follow-through. Ignoring a problem does not make it go away. If you truly believed in the stated reasons for the change, then provide data that either support or disprove the rationale behind the changes.
Fourth: There is no indication that you learned from your mistakes. 'Stuff was out of my control' isn't good enough. If Hilmar pipes up and states that we put Greyscale into a bad position and would not allow him to properly do his job, then that is another thing altogether. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Forlorn Wongraven
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:36:00 -
[83] - Quote
I don't get why people are so Sanctum focused aka distrubution focused. Depending on your skills and race preference the different lower end anoms can provide the same ISK/h than Sanctums or even more. It doesn't really matter: it is still 120+ mil/h when you know what you do. Obviously a 6 month old renter in a Drake won't make that and they should not. Ugleb > and TDR won't log in so long as their core members are demotivated for whichever reason is in flavour this week |
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
So let me get this right:
- one cannot mine belts in high sec because of detroyer ganks - one cannot use any industrial ship in high sec during Hulkageddon (or however it is spelled) because they get popped - one cannot mine ice in high sec because of ganks - one cannot take too long finishing a lvl 4 mish in high sec because of ninja looters - one cannot take one's eye off the screen for a minute in high sec incursions because of griefers and gankers - one cannot fly a marauder in high sec because of ganks - one cannot fly a pimped up battleship in high sec because of griefers and ganks - one cannot fly caps or supercaps in high sec because they are only allowed in low, null and wormhole space - one cannot fly a freighter or industrial on autopilot from one corner of high sec EVE to another because of gate camps - one cannot set up a pos in highsec because of wardecs
...and to top it off the very best content is in nullsec where high sec carebears have no interest in playing eventhough there are more carebears with a gazillion skillpoints than pvpers. Now CCP is buffing EVEN MORE those sections of EVE where carebears do not fly.
CCP please tell me why I should spend my hard earned money playing your game when my playstyle, high sec carebear, obviously is not to your liking? |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:The changes are welcome, but the most important line in the blog is "We are however actively planning on revisiting the situation in a few months to make sure we've hit the mark properly this time."
I'm sure everyone is happy that the renewed focus on EVE and FiS provides more resources for such rapid iteration. The proof is in the execution.
So many times has CCP stated that features will be reviewed and revisited (iterated?) that any such statement can only be viewed with skepticism and, at times, contempt.
CCP Greyscale, unless there is additional information, was the prime actor in one of the more recent egregious examples of 'CCP dropping the ball' with its customers.
His word means nothing until his actions prove otherwise.
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK..
loldronespace |
Spitfork
Ecliptic Control Gypsy Band
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:18:00 -
[87] - Quote
Dalilus wrote:So let me get this right:
- one cannot mine belts in high sec because of detroyer ganks - one cannot use any industrial ship in high sec during Hulkageddon (or however it is spelled) because they get popped - one cannot mine ice in high sec because of ganks - one cannot take too long finishing a lvl 4 mish in high sec because of ninja looters - one cannot take one's eye off the screen for a minute in high sec incursions because of griefers and gankers - one cannot fly a marauder in high sec because of ganks - one cannot fly a pimped up battleship in high sec because of griefers and ganks - one cannot fly caps or supercaps in high sec because they are only allowed in low, null and wormhole space - one cannot fly a freighter or industrial on autopilot from one corner of high sec EVE to another because of gate camps - one cannot set up a pos in highsec because of wardecs
...and to top it off the very best content is in nullsec where high sec carebears have no interest in playing eventhough there are more carebears with a gazillion skillpoints than pvpers. Now CCP is buffing EVEN MORE those sections of EVE where carebears do not fly.
CCP please tell me why I should spend my hard earned money playing your game when my playstyle, high sec carebear, obviously is not to your liking? bear tears best tears!
This sounds like you want to play the game mostly afk and let the isk flow in. Why? You should check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD69PAIqiYo |
The Offerer
Republic University Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:22:00 -
[88] - Quote
Sadly, I think that this change came a bit too late. A lot of political and demographic changes happened in the game since the nerf that simply nullified this fix.
- Many players left to highsec because of the nerf. DED complexes were too infrequent and often bugged so they mainly got done shortly after downtime and didn't re-spawn until the next downtime. If you are working well after the downtime and have time to log on a couple of hours after it, you won't have a chance to find a valuable complex to do (speaking from personal and experience of all my corp mates). The only thing that provided some sort of income were removed, not nerfed.
Result: many of those players are in highsec doing missions. I don't have to be a market expert to see that ISK per LP ratio has dropped considerably after the nerf. It would require much more than a fix to anomalies to get those players back, because one by one they are leaving the game (taking a "break" never to be heard from again) after being bored in highsec. There are other things that influence this unwillingness to get back to 0.0 and those things must be fixed if we want to kep the players in the game.
- Many players (a half of my crew back before the nerf) simply disappeared from the game never to come back. I haven't been able to talk them into re-subbing again. They are simply disappointed for instantly losing everything that we invested in. It's too late to get those players back.
- Since 0.0 industry is still non-existent on a personal level and you still don't have a chance to do anything industry related whatsoever without messing with the corporate bureaucracy, the single most viable ISK income for a 0.0 player were anomalies. We needed that ISK in order to PvP. It's a 0.0 space... a free-for-all PvP zone... and we got kicked out of the game by not having enough ISK to play.
In the mean time, one block of players formed a single fleet of overpowered and unbalanced ships and took multiple regions of space. Any attempt to attack their systems will result in the same response as we've seen before. I used to roam through those regions before the conquest - lots of players, lots of activity, lots of targets. Now? Those systems were taken because of a single (also unbalanced) moon resource and left empty. Whole regions of space became ghost towns.
And who is willing to fight them? Well, no one at this moment. There's no reason why should anyone want to dedicate their time, resources and morale to try to fight that monster for a pitty increase in anomaly values. - Not when you can't even pick up a fight against 200-strong supercarriers + titans - Not when server behavior is still unpredictable since we don't yet have time dilation on TQ - Not when industry in 0.0 space is still neglected and practically don't exist outside of corporate bureaucracy (and judging by the Customs office devblog, that isn't going to change any time soon)
There is still hope, however, and this should be only the first step of getting players back into the most interesting part of the game and the game itself: - Supercapital nerf must actually work. Without that nerf, there is no fight. - Time dilation must actually work. Without it, there's no fun or possibility of winning because of something that your fleet did. - Industry must be redone to be available to the masses in 0.0 space. This idea, for example, tacles that problem quite effectively: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1560795&page=9#258
Without those things and without player's will or possibility to fight for 0.0 space, this anomaly buff will only serve those who are already established in 0.0 space: - invulnerable blobs with strong supercapital core - bots that are still very active in all regions of space including 0.0 and we all know that both of those things not good for player morale.
TL;DR
It's a step forward that is made a little too late to be effective and productive by itself. Many things have happened in the game because of the nerf that drastically changed the landscape of the whole game. Many players left right away and many are still leaving nullsec and the game because of the lack of achievable goals, because the balance of the game got heavily broken. In order to have hope and goals again and keep players in the game, anomalies had to be fixed, supercapitals must be nerfed properly, time dilation and server load balancing better work, and corporate monopoly over industry in nullsec must be minimized. Only then you will completely fix what got broken with the nerf. Without all those elements, the impact on the playerbase might be completely opposite of what you are expecting.
|
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
186
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:22:00 -
[89] - Quote
Meh... |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
25
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:23:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:
First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.
Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
How to prove you are sorry and will do better: 1) Admit your mistake. 2) Take steps to correct the mistake. 3) Take steps to avoid making the same mistake again.
Time will always tell for number 3 (though it looks promising right now) but you have 1 and 2 covered so far.
I can feel the pain of negative feed back, I work in IT, 5 of us in department doing service for about 200 people or so in 4 different locations (soon to add a 5th with another 20 people). Everyone only sees their own point of view oh so often that it becomes tough to make a decision that most people can accept.
I think you have formulated a plan of action that will generate some (maybe lots of) positive results. Keep up the work. (Yeah, almost zero constructive feedback, just being a pep rally leader here...)
I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
|
Dziu
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:23:00 -
[91] - Quote
They're nerfing Drone Hordes, so it's even MORE difficult to make isk in droneregions. By the way, not a single word about it in devblog. "We boost everything". Yeah, right...
|
Jojo Yohan
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:33:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:BigCountry wrote: So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK
My response was pointing out that your whining about things being harder in Drone Land is silly given the disproportionate amount guaranteed ISK you pull out of drone anoms. So what if they're harder... you'll still run them and still make bank on them.
First off: Guaranteed isk would be bounties which is not what the drone regions provide. There is still risk in transporting and storing alloys, especially when you are multiple jumps away from an outpost.
Secondly: They are not harder, they just take longer since you have to wait for every last frigate drone to die before going onto the next spawn. I would actually prefer if they were harder and provided more isk with more risk.
Third: They are saying, "More money! More loot!" But in actuality it will be more time, same reward. -> Less isk/hour.
If they truly are trying to increase ISK/hour or ISK/EHP than this change does the opposite of what they are intending. |
Paskis Robinson
Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition.
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:43:00 -
[93] - Quote
Holy crap CCP, you guys are kicking arse and taking names |
Dark Tobby
Phantom Squad Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:44:00 -
[94] - Quote
Dalilus wrote:So let me get this right:
- one cannot mine belts in high sec because of detroyer ganks - one cannot use any industrial ship in high sec during Hulkageddon (or however it is spelled) because they get popped - one cannot mine ice in high sec because of ganks - one cannot take too long finishing a lvl 4 mish in high sec because of ninja looters - one cannot take one's eye off the screen for a minute in high sec incursions because of griefers and gankers - one cannot fly a marauder in high sec because of ganks - one cannot fly a pimped up battleship in high sec because of griefers and ganks - one cannot fly caps or supercaps in high sec because they are only allowed in low, null and wormhole space - one cannot fly a freighter or industrial on autopilot from one corner of high sec EVE to another because of gate camps - one cannot set up a pos in highsec because of wardecs
...and to top it off the very best content is in nullsec where high sec carebears have no interest in playing eventhough there are more carebears with a gazillion skillpoints than pvpers. Now CCP is buffing EVEN MORE those sections of EVE where carebears do not fly.
CCP please tell me why I should spend my hard earned money playing your game when my playstyle, high sec carebear, obviously is not to your liking?
I would say the exact opposite of what you are saying being a 0.0 citizen.
Why should carebears have the best ISK per hour(incursion) that is LOW RISK when we the 0.0 who fight for our space only get sanctums worth after buff 75% per hour with HIGH risk or getting ganked?
|
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:25:00 -
[95] - Quote
I applaud you CCP for making the effort to make isk better in 0.0
With these changes I will effectively make less isk/hour, a lot less.
Please, I beg you comprehend the changes that you are doing because this is very, very bad. I am appalled that you don't grasp how some of us making our isk/hour.
Who do I need to get in contact with to just explain how terrible these changes really are?
Is this a joke? This is MUCH worse... Wow. I can't believe it.
Edit:
For those that dont understand.
All CCP did was add more ships to the anomalies, effectively making them harder, so you can't solo them as easily as you could.
1. With the perma neuting battleships, you have to shoot them from range causing less damage. 2. You need a better tank, less damage.
Less damage = killing a lot slower = worse isk/hour. This is *very* bad. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:26:00 -
[96] - Quote
edit : double post |
EC Tolowim
EVE Casino Corp
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:35:00 -
[97] - Quote
Jojo Yohan wrote:Tarsas Phage wrote:BigCountry wrote: So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK
My response was pointing out that your whining about things being harder in Drone Land is silly given the disproportionate amount guaranteed ISK you pull out of drone anoms. So what if they're harder... you'll still run them and still make bank on them. First off: Guaranteed isk would be bounties which is not what the drone regions provide. There is still risk in transporting and storing alloys, especially when you are multiple jumps away from an outpost. Secondly: They are not harder, they just take longer since you have to wait for every last frigate drone to die before going onto the next spawn. I would actually prefer if they were harder and provided more isk with more risk. Third: They are saying, "More money! More loot!" But in actuality it will be more time, same reward. -> Less isk/hour. If they truly are trying to increase ISK/hour or ISK/EHP than this change does the opposite of what they are intending.
I agree, believe it or not, getting the alloys to a safe place is more difficult then people think when you are transporting it from bumville to high sec. IMO drones should remain the same. They are within proportions when looking at the issue from an economical and transportation standpoint. |
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:43:00 -
[98] - Quote
BigCountry wrote:Tarsas Phage wrote:BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK.. Oh cry me a river. Just how many billions in Plush Compound and other crap does your alliance/blues collectively pull out of the Drone Regions on a weekly basis? I've been having a ball the past few months taking a close look at what leftovers you haul back to empire, and I swear, compared to the personal income abilities of other 0.0 alliances, you guys have absolutely no room to talk. If you live in the Drone Regions and have a hard time making ISK by the bucketload, the problem is not CCP, the problem is YOU. /T LOL if i read correctly the OP by greyscale they found that sanctums were the best anomolies on TQ ... those arent in the droneregions ... and how much do yall make off of raw bounties and mod drops PLUS faction loot ..... So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK
You people over in the drone regions have enough money as it is. Your Super Cap hordes are proof of that!
So no buff for you.
|
Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon Intrepid Crossing
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:59:00 -
[99] - Quote
Zendoren wrote:You people over in the drone regions have enough money as it is. Your Super Cap hordes are proof of that! So no buff for you. Edit: BTW, this is the answer for both low-sec and null-sec risk reward curveOnce implemented, all CCP needs to do is keep drops and bounties in line with the the type of space they spawn in. Lower the sec status of space the better and more frequent the spawns. Fixed in 0.0 use Ihub to augment the purposed sec system. in low-sec, they do not have Ihubs so reward will be caped! (so to say) The question is what player actions do we use to manipulate the tru sec with?? Also, does space slowly regain sec status if no player action is done within a system?
Just because you say its a good idea doesn't mean it is... |
Charles Edisson
Isk Incorporated
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:07:00 -
[100] - Quote
OK well I aplaud the desired goal but you've cocked up some of the sights just slightly.
If your goal was to increase the isk/hour of sites you should not have made them soo much harder/slower to complete that we will now actually be making less isk per hour.
Nice attempt but the current Sisi anoms are a total screw up.
And while you're working on fixing/the distribution of isk are you ever going to fix the biggest financial mistake you made in the game when you made Technetium the moon material that is in shortest supply.
Not that CCP will like the outcome of that briliant idea but you made a small number of people wery wealthy in the real world. |
|
Jojo Yohan
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:11:00 -
[101] - Quote
Zendoren wrote:BigCountry wrote:Tarsas Phage wrote:BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK.. Oh cry me a river. Just how many billions in Plush Compound and other crap does your alliance/blues collectively pull out of the Drone Regions on a weekly basis? I've been having a ball the past few months taking a close look at what leftovers you haul back to empire, and I swear, compared to the personal income abilities of other 0.0 alliances, you guys have absolutely no room to talk. If you live in the Drone Regions and have a hard time making ISK by the bucketload, the problem is not CCP, the problem is YOU. /T LOL if i read correctly the OP by greyscale they found that sanctums were the best anomolies on TQ ... those arent in the droneregions ... and how much do yall make off of raw bounties and mod drops PLUS faction loot ..... So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK You people over in the drone regions have enough money as it is. Your Super Cap hordes are proof of that! So no buff for you.
I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk). |
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:31:00 -
[102] - Quote
Jojo Yohan wrote: I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).
Quote:we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal, using mainly battlecruisers and high-value battleships to minimize the additional Effective Hit Points added to the site as a whole.
This suggest that they are calculating anomalies profitability by its collective EHP. This means that the total amount of isk gain within a site is directly proportional to the amount of damage one must put in it to finish the site.
I do not see where drone sites were specifically mentioned; however, i would suspect that drones were left untouched and the rest of the anomalies were buff to bring them inline to the amount of damage that must be done in drone sites.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to profit from anomalies (Drops, bounties, and salvage). Since drones rely mostly on drops and salvage (not a drone region resident sorry), CCP should have accounted for the profitability of Drone sites correctly if they did indeed use the above method.
Temmu Guerra wrote:Just because you say its a good idea doesn't mean it is...
You must be new around here, Everyone's ideas here on EVE O forums are correct and a good idea .......
|
Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon Intrepid Crossing
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:35:00 -
[103] - Quote
Zendoren wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote:Just because you say its a good idea doesn't mean it is... You must be new around here, Everyone's ideas here on EVE O forums are correct and a good idea .......
I commend you on your sense of humor. As for the topic at hand I just would to have confirmation if the drone regions are indeed getting affected by these. Zen your line of thinking is logical (EHP->ISK therefore drones are not affected) but when is the last time CCP did anything logically (cant say that for much longer though apparently ) |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
206
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:42:00 -
[104] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote:EHP->ISK therefore drones are not affected I think you misunderstood him.
Assumptions: - Anomaly value in these spreadsheets is not calculated as "bounty only", but "bounty + drop + salvage" - Just because drone anomalies are called hordes and not sanctums doesn't mean they aren't covered
Deduction: - Drone anomalies are affected as well, and have adjusted (better) payout (as measured by drop + salvage) as well
You can of course argue that the assumptions are surely wrong, but I wouldn't rely on it without a confirmation from CCP either way :-) |
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:45:00 -
[105] - Quote
Get rid of mineral drops from drones!!! give industry a chance!!! |
Jojo Yohan
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:46:00 -
[106] - Quote
Zendoren wrote:Jojo Yohan wrote: I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).
Quote:we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal, using mainly battlecruisers and high-value battleships to minimize the additional Effective Hit Points added to the site as a whole. This suggest that they are calculating anomalies profitability by its collective EHP. This means that the total amount of isk gain within a site is directly proportional to the amount of damage one must put in it to finish the site. I do not see where drone sites were specifically mentioned; however, i would suspect that drones were left untouched and the rest of the anomalies were buff to bring them inline to the amount of damage that must be done in drone sites. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to profit from anomalies (Drops, bounties, and salvage). Since drones rely mostly on drops and salvage (not a drone region resident sorry), CCP should have accounted for the profitability of Drone sites correctly if they did indeed use the above method.
I read that. They also said that they use this metric because ISK/hour has a lot of noise since everyone has their own pace/ship/setup that directly affects how fast they can complete and salvage an anomaly. So while they may have increased the drops and drones in total, they actually increased the time it takes to do the anomaly considerably.
This time increase is due to the fact that one can no longer destroy the four bunkers in 1 version of the anomaly and now must do this anomaly wave by wave. Drastically increasing the time and making it impossible to salvage while running this anomaly. There is already a version of Drone Horde that requires you to do waves, and no one runs that version because it already takes too much time.
Maybe this post will answer a few more questions as to why this change is not a good one, and it has nothing to do with coddling the drone regions. |
Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon Intrepid Crossing
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:46:00 -
[107] - Quote
Elanor Vega wrote:Get rid of mineral drops from drones!!! give industry a chance!!!
I would prefer this as a miner as it would make mining actually worth something |
Jojo Yohan
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:54:00 -
[108] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote: And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.
After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf. |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:54:00 -
[109] - Quote
I personly believe more isk is good, it means people can afford more ships to pvp with... some of us dont need a special reason to go and shoot others |
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:55:00 -
[110] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote:Zendoren wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote:Just because you say its a good idea doesn't mean it is... You must be new around here, Everyone's ideas here on EVE O forums are correct and a good idea ....... I commend you on your sense of humor. As for the topic at hand I just would to have confirmation if the drone regions are indeed getting affected by these. Zen your line of thinking is logical (EHP->ISK therefore drones are not affected) but when is the last time CCP did anything logically (cant say that for much longer though apparently )
The beauty of my suggestion to manipulate the true sec ststus of a system rlys on its simplicity, excitability, and integrability.
Simplicity - players actions dictate reward and increses reward over time. Simply put, more work you put into a system the more reward you get out of it (I think i heard this in physics class one time) LOL
Excitability - With such a simple system in place, you can tie all kinds of goodies to said system. Cyno jamming, gate gun control, Taratory control, Ship bonus buff and nurf. anomalies and rat spawning is just the tip of the ice burg to what you can do with the system.
integrability - with Ture sec of system already playing a large part as to what you can and can not do within space. makes only since that you give players the benefit to manipulate it and allow them to make tactical and strategic choices because of it. All you need to do is build a light game mechanic that changes the true sec in database and makes buffs, and anomalies ect more dependent on it.
Its intuitive too... most eve players know that the sec status of a system dictate what they can and cant do.
What i'm not saying is that you can make high sec into low sec by doing bad things in a system. I am saying that the system thats already lawless needs a system that can allow players to benefit if they choose to make it even more lawless or more lawful.
This idea can go the other way too, Anti-pirates can get buffs dependent on the sec status of the system and will gain more if they keep the systems higher in sec status. |
|
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:07:00 -
[111] - Quote
Jojo Yohan wrote:Zendoren wrote:Jojo Yohan wrote: I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).
Quote:we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal, using mainly battlecruisers and high-value battleships to minimize the additional Effective Hit Points added to the site as a whole. This suggest that they are calculating anomalies profitability by its collective EHP. This means that the total amount of isk gain within a site is directly proportional to the amount of damage one must put in it to finish the site. I do not see where drone sites were specifically mentioned; however, i would suspect that drones were left untouched and the rest of the anomalies were buff to bring them inline to the amount of damage that must be done in drone sites. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to profit from anomalies (Drops, bounties, and salvage). Since drones rely mostly on drops and salvage (not a drone region resident sorry), CCP should have accounted for the profitability of Drone sites correctly if they did indeed use the above method. I read that. They also said that they use this metric because ISK/hour has a lot of noise since everyone has their own pace/ship/setup that directly affects how fast they can complete and salvage an anomaly. So while they may have increased the drops and drones in total, they actually increased the time it takes to do the anomaly considerably. This time increase is due to the fact that one can no longer destroy the four bunkers in 1 version of the anomaly and now must do this anomaly wave by wave. Drastically increasing the time and making it impossible to salvage while running this anomaly. There is already a version of Drone Horde that requires you to do waves, and no one runs that version because it already takes too much time. Maybe this post will answer a few more questions as to why this change is not a good one, and it has nothing to do with coddling the drone regions. It also seems that some people have no clue what the problem is, so I stated it above. tl;dr -> The version of drone horde that allowed you to spawn all the drones and agro them and then bring in your looter at the same time was nerfed so that it has to be done wave by wave, increasing the total time to finish it and therefore lowering ISK/hour, even though ISK/EHP may have increased, this will still lead to a lower income for everyone running this anomaly.
You do not PVP much do you?
If they buff the EHP for the rest of the anomalies then the DPS needed will go up thus the time it take to complete the sites will go up..... |
Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon Intrepid Crossing
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:11:00 -
[112] - Quote
Jojo Yohan wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote: And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.
After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf.
I said carrier not super carrier. Sentry II's and heavy drone II's are just as good if not better then fighters. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
365
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:16:00 -
[113] - Quote
Dierdra Vaal wrote: Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite?
Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?
+1 for fewer / slower ISK faucets
Ultimately, I think the answer there lies in turning down the faucet, and compensating by dropping more meta 1-4 / faction items, tags, and rewarding more activities with LP instead of ISK. (But we also need more ISK sinks in some fashion.)
You can still make the same amount per hour (after selling everything), but it slows down the rate of ISK coming into the system and you're forced to get more of your compensation by selling things to other players. If there ends up with a glut of those dropped / earned items, the market will adjust to the over-supply. |
Jojo Yohan
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:17:00 -
[114] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote:Jojo Yohan wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote: And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.
After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf. I said carrier not super carrier. Sentry II's and heavy drone II's are just as good if not better then fighters.
Feel free to read the rest of my post. You cannot hit all the bunkers at once anymore with the new patch. You have to kill the entire wave before the next wave will show up. I don't know where you got super caps from in there at all.
Zendoren: I have done PVP in the past and that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I don't care that EHP goes up or ISK goes up. I care that since you have to complete wave 1 to get wave 2 instead of blowing up the 4 bunkers and getting all 5 waves at the same time, the time to complete the anomaly goes up drastically more than if they just increased EHP. |
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:25:00 -
[115] - Quote
Jojo Yohan wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote:Jojo Yohan wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote: And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.
After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf. I said carrier not super carrier. Sentry II's and heavy drone II's are just as good if not better then fighters. Feel free to read the rest of my post. You cannot hit all the bunkers at once anymore with the new patch. You have to kill the entire wave before the next wave will show up. I don't know where you got super caps from in there at all. Zendoren: I have done PVP in the past and that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I don't care that EHP goes up or ISK goes up. I care that since you have to complete wave 1 to get wave 2 instead of blowing up the 4 bunkers and getting all 5 waves at the same time, the time to complete the anomaly goes up drastically more than if they just increased EHP.
With the new battle ships and BC that they are adding to the other anomalies I'm sure that people will not be able to complete them in the same way and will need to slow down the spawns in the anomalies.
You are speculating that the rest of the anomalies can be done in the same way they were before. Just as i am speculating that it will take more DPS to do them thus takes more time.
If nothing else, worse case scenario is see is that the rest of the anomalies ccp buffs, their Time to completion will be more closer to the time it takes to complete that drone hoard site you mention previously while it remains the same. |
Jojo Yohan
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:50:00 -
[116] - Quote
Maybe someone from CCP can enlighten us as to why this anomaly was changed and if any other anomalies were changed in the same way.
It would also be nice to see why they made this change. It seemed from what they said that they did not consider time in the equation, just ISK/EHP, which while a valuable metric, does not show the entire picture. |
Avila Cracko
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
99
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:11:00 -
[117] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Dierdra Vaal wrote: Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite?
Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?
+1 for fewer / slower ISK faucets Ultimately, I think the answer there lies in turning down the faucet, and compensating by dropping more meta 1-4 / faction items, tags, and rewarding more activities with LP instead of ISK. (But we also need more ISK sinks in some fashion.) You can still make the same amount per hour (after selling everything), but it slows down the rate of ISK coming into the system and you're forced to get more of your compensation by selling things to other players. If there ends up with a glut of those dropped / earned items, the market will adjust to the over-supply.
+1000 |
Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:20:00 -
[118] - Quote
I have to say, I don't think its possible to make such a simple topic so ******* retardedly complex and incomprehensible to the average grunt.
Instead of making up useless propellerhead nonsense like isk:ehp ratios which mean **** all to anyone, why don't you just speak plain english and pick 1 reference platform which everyone can identify with and use as a comparison point. Notwithstanding that the detail actually given is so vague it is meaningless. You may as well say 'We've buffed anomalies' and let that be the end of it.
Christ |
fettes wuermchen
Lobach Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:27:00 -
[119] - Quote
A pure ISK/EHP ratio may give you some wrong results. Sancumts are containing much more BS and BCs than smaller sites do.
Let's say you need one hour to bring out one million damage hit points, farming sanctums. That would be 97mio ISK. Now you are flying smaller sites. Since there much are more ships flying very fast and having a very small signature radius, you will need twice as long. You will get (ratio of 70) 70 million ISK bounty, which results in 35mio ISK / hour. Yes - these numbers are not real, but they may show you, that your ISK/hour may increase to a third or half only.
This is my idea: Think about a set. Each set is containing a fixed number of Elite Cruisers, Cruisers, Frigs, BCs, BS and so on. The bigger the site, the more sets will spawn. Since you need to locate a new site and warp there afterwards, big sites should have their advantage. The Military level will give the number of sites available.
Probably you will reduce the number of different anomaly types (like Haven, Sacntum, Hub, ...), but that would be OK.
Before paying the bounty, a modifier need to be used: 0.8 + (-0.3 * Security) = Bounty modifier
Let's say a sanctum will give you 60mio bounty currently. After using the modifier you will get: 0.0 security: 48mio 1.0 security: 66mio
So you will get a different of about a third, depending where you are living.
Greetings wuermchen
PS: Even in 0.0 security anomalys need to give you far more ISK/hour than some level 4 agent's will do in high sec. |
Xtraneous
Sam's Space Guys
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:44:00 -
[120] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:
First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.
Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
It's great to have you back on the forums, the mood has improved because it's once again full of excited chatter about the cool stuff coming in the next expansion, just like years ago. Getting things right the first time isn't important, as players we are very forgiving when we feel involved and aware and recently you've all been doing an excellent job of that.
|
|
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 00:06:00 -
[121] - Quote
Admiral Thorn wrote:BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK.. This...
Boo hoo! DRF botters have it so rough in the drone regions! D:
CCP Greyscale, good stuff. CCP has been making many excellent changes(albeit a couple needless ones as well) lately. The key to a successful relationship with a customer base is communication. Talk to us on the forums and in your dev blogs as much as possible, because a business without customers is just a flop. |
Elsa Nietchize
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 00:30:00 -
[122] - Quote
Here's my story greyscale. I started off in hisec. I trained up for missions with the hope that pve skills could translate somewhat into pvp skills. I got rich and bored. I moved into 0.0. I had a lot of fun. Anoms were great, fleet mining ops were fun, pvp was the best. Industry sucked but industry has always sucked in 0.0. As I believe mittens once said, I was making enough to survive. Just about all the isk I made in 0.0 i spent. Anoms then got nerfed. My income went down and so did my spending. But the competition also went up. the effort was no longer worth it. i moved back to hisec. I've found that for people like me, the only thing to do in hisec is make isk. My wallet grew fat and I grew bored. I'd love to move back to 0.0 but even with your proposed changes, it's just not worth it. I'm cancelling my alt at the end of this month. I've found new joy in incursions but i'm sure they'll be nerfed very soon. I'm really hopeful for this winter expansion but all i hear is 'boo hoo i'm sorry we screwed up. please give us your money and wait for awesomesauce'. i've been waiting. i'm done with waiting. fix 0.0. it's where a good number of us want to be. while you strongly believe that imbalance is the key to conflict, i'd counter that population density leads to conflict as well. my main will expire around may of 2012. you will not have done enough for me to resub by then. |
xxxak
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 00:37:00 -
[123] - Quote
Elsa Nietchize wrote:Here's my story greyscale. I started off in hisec. I trained up for missions with the hope that pve skills could translate somewhat into pvp skills. I got rich and bored. I moved into 0.0. I had a lot of fun. Anoms were great, fleet mining ops were fun, pvp was the best. Industry sucked but industry has always sucked in 0.0. As I believe mittens once said, I was making enough to survive. Just about all the isk I made in 0.0 i spent. Anoms then got nerfed. My income went down and so did my spending. But the competition also went up. the effort was no longer worth it. i moved back to hisec. I've found that for people like me, the only thing to do in hisec is make isk. My wallet grew fat and I grew bored. I'd love to move back to 0.0 but even with your proposed changes, it's just not worth it. I'm cancelling my alt at the end of this month. I've found new joy in incursions but i'm sure they'll be nerfed very soon. I'm really hopeful for this winter expansion but all i hear is 'boo hoo i'm sorry we screwed up. please give us your money and wait for awesomesauce'. i've been waiting. i'm done with waiting. fix 0.0. it's where a good number of us want to be. while you strongly believe that imbalance is the key to conflict, i'd counter that population density leads to conflict as well. my main will expire around may of 2012. you will not have done enough for me to resub by then.
This really. Nerfing supers is not going to help the N+1/Blob problem. It will just mean that superpilots will be even more likely to want to blob. Think more creatively. Support the idea of a subcap "assault bomber." |
Tarikan
Hardcore p0wnography Cascade Probable
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 00:39:00 -
[124] - Quote
I'm rather confused on how to calculate how much isk you'd get with this isk:EHP .
does someone know the the total isk worth? |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 00:43:00 -
[125] - Quote
S8nt wrote:Hi,
With the calculations now done with these Anomalies, could you please now go work out the following:
- ISK per hour for mining in belts in say angel space where there is a crapload of ABC's - ISK per hour mining in say Tribute where there is no ABC's - ISK per hour mining in system upgraded Grav sites at say a resonable level 3 or 4?
Please CCP, if there is one thing you do this expansion, please fix mining so that it doesn't have to be bot run to make a semi decent income.
S8nt
Allow us to modify what is in our belts so we are not to simple Isk makers but can be used to make veld so we can build the ships we need instead of being force to mine the Arch and sell it and buy the Veld from Empire.
If we can mine veld in Hidden sites (LARGE QUANTATIES) the price of Ark will go up as we mine for production guys don't need to compete with the mine for isk guys.
Mining in current belts for Veld is just to dangerous because of Local and the belts on the overview.
I would be SUPER happy if half the normal belts now had to be scanable vs on the over view then we could mine for production in reasonable ease. And the guy who want to kill me will have to make an effort not just randomly fly around.
I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Limitless Inc.
195
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 00:45:00 -
[126] - Quote
This is the wrong approach. There's two things that can be said about anomalies: a) you make stupendous amounts of money running them, if properly setup and have monopoly on them b) they blob people up in home systems, usually with station, defence upgrades (possibly cynojammer) etc
Case b is a major, major issue for PvP in this game. When people have alot of friends in local, usually a station, quite possible caps- and supercaps, etc, it's not very appealing to fight in that system. And even if you do, say through cloakers, black ops etc, you can only do it for so long before you get predictable and attacked.
Case b is also the issue that reduces the income in anomalies, and a part of why some people feel anomalies arn't great income. The fact is that you can easily make hundreds of millions an hour if you use the right ship and/or tool - and have monopoly on the anomalies. Most cases, you don't. Because of the blobby system.
The best approach to sort both of these issues, would be to make upgraded systems alot easier to set up and maintain, but instead the anomalies gets alot weaker too. You want to try to promote players to spread out, not blob up, right? Or is this a PvE game now? What happened with the dark, harsh and dangerous EVE?
When you spread people out, they will get a monopoly on (or at least alot more chance to farm the good) anomalies. The PvPers will be more happy. The people maintaining the upgrades will be more happy. The smaller alliances will be more happy, a better chance for them to get a slice of null. The only people that won't be as happy, is the hardcore anomaly farmers who make billions a day just farming anomalies. Which isn't really great now, is it? In comparison, there's no such similarity from industrialism, lv4 etc, at least not on such a grand scale (there can be alot of those upgraded systems in the game, and it does't take much skillpoints to set it up either, just a one-off investment in upgrade/ships/fittings).
TL;DR anomalies needs to be nerfed, not boosted. And they need to be spread out, instead of bundled up in massively defenced blob-HQ's. this is a signature |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 00:49:00 -
[127] - Quote
Elsa Nietchize wrote:Here's my story greyscale. I started off in hisec. I trained up for missions with the hope that pve skills could translate somewhat into pvp skills. I got rich and bored. I moved into 0.0. I had a lot of fun. Anoms were great, fleet mining ops were fun, pvp was the best. Industry sucked but industry has always sucked in 0.0. As I believe mittens once said, I was making enough to survive. Just about all the isk I made in 0.0 i spent. Anoms then got nerfed. My income went down and so did my spending. But the competition also went up. the effort was no longer worth it. i moved back to hisec. I've found that for people like me, the only thing to do in hisec is make isk. My wallet grew fat and I grew bored. I'd love to move back to 0.0 but even with your proposed changes, it's just not worth it. I'm cancelling my alt at the end of this month. I've found new joy in incursions but i'm sure they'll be nerfed very soon. I'm really hopeful for this winter expansion but all i hear is 'boo hoo i'm sorry we screwed up. please give us your money and wait for awesomesauce'. i've been waiting. i'm done with waiting. fix 0.0. it's where a good number of us want to be. while you strongly believe that imbalance is the key to conflict, i'd counter that population density leads to conflict as well. my main will expire around may of 2012. you will not have done enough for me to resub by then.
Heh. All this tells me is that you don't know how to plan ahead and wasted 6 PLEX's worth of game time that someone who actually wants to keep playing could use.
Also, can I have your stuff? |
zxsteel
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 02:02:00 -
[128] - Quote
Time to end this CCP, turn all the anomalies in to group socialness, "inursions" type style of income.
Pro - More people socialing, in GROUPS - and isk is shareed. Pro- People will still fight for good systems, to make that income!
Want to solo hit the belts - time to beef up the bounties ? |
Aylanaa
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 02:21:00 -
[129] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:BigCountry wrote: So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK
My response was pointing out that your whining about things being harder in Drone Land is silly given the disproportionate amount guaranteed ISK you pull out of drone anoms. So what if they're harder... you'll still run them and still make bank on them. The guys in Pirate rat space are beholden to the random number generator and have to wade through lots of competition to make their big ISK... you Drone guys, sitting in your numerous and heavily upgraded systems, which in some areas have a higher station density than some parts of lowsec, not even nearly as much. All I see are the JFs coming back to empire loaded with 2-4bn ISK in drone leavings every 2-3 days, multiple times per week. I can only imagine that's just a portion of what is pulled out of all the hordes and other anoms the collective "you" run.
sorry bro but you don't get any guaranteed isk from ratting in drone land. u have to move your alloys to sell them which can be blown up at any time during your move; unlike other rats that give bounties. |
Andrea Griffin
50
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 02:26:00 -
[130] - Quote
S8nt wrote:With the calculations now done with these Anomalies, could you please now go work out the following:
- ISK per hour for mining in belts in say angel space where there is a crapload of ABC's - ISK per hour mining in say Tribute where there is no ABC's - ISK per hour mining in system upgraded Grav sites at say a resonable level 3 or 4? To me, this is one of the problems - that a certain system or area will always yield the same amount of resources and raw isk over time. Eve should be far, far more dynamic than it is. It should have become dynamic years ago. System security, moon goo, even the presence of the various pirate alliances should change based on the activities of the players in the game.
The central concept of making some areas more valuable than others is that it will drive conflict, since people will want to fight over the areas with the highest value. However, when those places of value are wholly static, a winner will grab that space and grow to the point where it is exceptionally difficult, if not impossible to dislodge the resident (Insider Alliance Disbanding lameness aside, of course).
Resources should change locations. They should run out and have to be found again. If nothing else, then a large alliance that controls an area of space with little fear of contest will have to move over time and make decisions. It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
|
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Limitless Inc.
195
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 02:37:00 -
[131] - Quote
zxsteel wrote:Time to end this CCP, turn all the anomalies in to group socialness, "inursions" type style of income.
Pro - More people socialing, in GROUPS - and isk is shareed. Pro- People will still fight for good systems, to make that income!
Want to solo hit the belts - time to beef up the bounties ?
Hooray, let's turn nullsec into even more blobfests. As if it wasn't bad enough already that officers now need fleets, caps or supercaps, now even the most base income in null should be fleet based. Great idea! Why don't we put walls on the stargates too so hostiles can't enter, and give a higher bounty multipler the bigger the fleet gets! Then we can sit with our 2000 pilots and have fun together!
Here's a little revelation for you son, it did not work out very well during the cold war either. HE HAS MORE MISSILES THAN US! WE NEED MOAR PVP SHIPS TO ATTACK THEIR RATTING FLEET! TO THE BATMOBILE! Sooner than you think, there will be 1500 angry ratters on one side of the gate, and 500 sad PvPers on the other. Neither side want to jump into eachother, the ratters make zero isk and the PvPers don't get to fight anyone.
This game is killing itself slowly by bleeding everyone to boredom-death. There's just no combat, no drama, no real player interaction anymore. Where's the Molle-speeches to incite carebear anger, where's the gamemechanic exploiting minor entities that make the game balance progress. Where's the EVE?
If you want to do your group-PvE, there's already Incursions in all secs. Utilize it. There's also higher level wormholes. Tried em? this is a signature |
Balcor Mirage
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 02:40:00 -
[132] - Quote
So... here we go again...
Greyscale, I must say I'm still really disappointed with you for not listening to the players concerning the nullsec anomaly changes implemented in March. It hurt my alliance, but it hurt others even more. Whether we were right or wrong about the impact of the changes (we were right, by the way) is still not the point. What we were doing was investing infrastructure based on the rules set of the game. Now you're changing the rules again... with the promise to evaluate whether to change them again... soon. Do I want to invest more infrastructure under that environment of change? ...well probably not.
What this tells me is that you (as a company of game designers) lack a vision of what nullsec should be, why it exists at all, and how players should interact with it. This, in spite of the dev blogs a few months back asking pilots for feedback on what THEY thought nullsec should be. Further, I don't believe you can just concentrate on one portion of the game without causing an imbalance elsewhere. The game is currently disjointed, unbalanced and becoming more boring with each passing month. Now I know you are all working hard to fix what you think needs fixing, but you're apparently doing it without a guiding vision or blueprint which would keep you from coming back in a short period of time with another set of tweeks to fix what you broke the last time in.
So what I'd like to hear from you and the rest of the development team is not "hey, we're rebalancing anomalies... again." But rather what YOUR vision of nullsec is, how it relates to lowsec as well as empire space, what the devs plan to do to fix the growing wasteland called 0.0, make lowsec worth... well... anything... and what you intend to do to make things interesting again! Most importantly though... STICK TO YOUR VISION.
Good luck
|
Taiwanistan
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 03:32:00 -
[133] - Quote
please suicide it is like if i went on second life and raged where's the spaceships |
Jieirn Devau
Aperture Reach
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 04:08:00 -
[134] - Quote
Great to see you back CCP Greyscale, and thank you for your apology, its a hard thing to do but its a learning experience. I like this change, felt the explanation is correct, that anoms are not balanced and I believe that we all know your trying to make Nullsec work and that the path to that isn't clear. This Dev Blog is just a series in how much it is really going to take to do that. And we have all noticed the new attitude in all of EVE that is stemming from this new found cooperation with the players in building the game. The Naga was changed in 2 short weeks from the mass of feedback about it, something that has never happened before. But, I can understand how hard it can be on you for there to already be such a negative response to your blog and to take the tactless criticisms of EVE players, especially those of the Nullsec population, those guys aren't very suited for holding back. So before you shy away from the forums again, which you undoubtedly will want to after this thread, listen to yourself:
CCP Greyscale wrote:This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated
Now from the time that you posted, you must have been just about to leave for home, so I would like to remind all the EVE players that he wont be back on the clock for at least 8 more hours. But, when you do get back and you read the massive response to your first real post in a long time, please, take a deep breath and understand we aren't against you. We are however rightfully concerned because we have seen this before. This is a step both forwards and backwards, trying desperately to do the right thing the same wrong way we've seen before. There are obviously a hundred things people are complaining about over this and a hundred more suggested fixes but, none of them are truly cohesive because all of them are lacking something vital:
Balcor Mirage wrote:So... here we go again...
So what I'd like to hear from you and the rest of the development team is not "hey, we're rebalancing anomalies... again." But rather what YOUR vision of nullsec is, how it relates to lowsec as well as empire space
VISION
We've seen the vision. We heard it, saw it, felt it. We loved it, and it moved us. CCP has shown it to us in some spectacular videos, in the storyline, and at Fanfest, like a glimmer of a dream, we have seen it. We don't know if you have. In fact, we don't really know where the entire CCP team is taking us right now. Its like a roller-coaster of great things made of candy and its making everyone's eyes sparkle. A sparkle with a dark anger that hasn't fully been sated yet. Making changes to low and null at this time will quickly bring back the fury that has faded in the last month. Right now its time to take a step back from this change, not because it is a bad change. Quite the opposite, its a good change a long time coming. Yet it feels like a small piece of a large puzzle and none of the other pieces match. This isn't the time to make it fit, not when all you have is the border and less than a quarter of it finished, not when most of the puzzle and final picture are hidden away from the player base.
Three months ago you posted two blogs about Null and what it should be. Its time for an update and an actual outline. The players are giving you more feedback than ever before and its quality feedback, not just complaints. We are doing this because we care about this game and where it goes. So give us an outline, let us look in the little black book and get a glimpse of the secret. Then put out some framework for it, make it cohesive, include lowsec, and show us that you have seen the same vision that CCP showed us. Once that is done and only then, release this change. As much as we like making money, this does us no good till the other pieces are in place. This is NOT a PRIORITY, its a little token of yours in apology for the massive mistake that the last anom change was. Reading over the forums you can see that we are past that, that anoms will not bring back the players to nullsec. It gives us nothing, and we can plan for nothing with it. Let us in on the plan, or work with us to make it. Right it looks like you don't have one.
There are a lot of ideas out in the forums right now. Many of them are being overlooked because they don't fit. When you do reply to this thread, give us a direction. Tell us where to go and then listen to the ideas. We don't need to know the story, or even where its going. That is a surprise that we love to find, something we will gladly chase on our own as you give it to us. I personally would like to see all these changes get a storyline that is in holding with the events in the current one, a storyline that expands sleepers again. But I digress, my point to make is that if you tell us you need a comprehensive industrial solution that must meet a list of criteria, we will help you make it. Give us your ideas on how you want to do it and we will provide instant and quality feedback. Before you announce these changes as being final, as this blog makes me think they are for a while, listen to the feedback, change your plan accordingly, and get new feedback. This can be done right the first time but, not without you changing your ways and committing to include us. Do that and we will be supportive every step of the way.
|
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 07:18:00 -
[135] - Quote
Wait.. You're nerfing them again? I thought the idea was to improve them?
More rats in a single anomaly means the ISK per hour ratio will remain pretty much unaffected (assuming the spawns aren't harder to tank etc.), but completing the anomaly will take longer which will give you less chances at faction spawns and escalations. |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 08:37:00 -
[136] - Quote
The moral of this story is...
Stay in Incursion fleet and earn ALLOT more isk ALLOT faster
ps: just use sleeper npc for ALL NPC encounters in eve. Every belt, every mission (maybe start at level 3) and so on... |
Lady Vici
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 08:54:00 -
[137] - Quote
Via Shivon wrote:The moral of this story is... Stay in Incursion fleet and earn ALLOT more isk ALLOT faster ps: just use sleeper npc for ALL NPC encounters in eve. Every belt, every mission (maybe start at level 3) and so on...
This, scamming and suicide ganking ftw |
Deitis Surtic
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 08:58:00 -
[138] - Quote
Elanor Vega wrote:Get rid of mineral drops from drones!!! give industry a chance!!!
The irony in these two sentences is palpable.
Edit Oh, right. And 99% of the suggestions I've read in here for boosting income are pants-on-head ********. I'm based out in null at the moment and pull far more ISK than I ever did in highsec. The guy saying he's going to quit in 2012 was hilarious, too.
Do yourselves a favour, fellow capsuleers - read through your thread before hitting the 'Post' button and see if common sense makes any appearances.
- D |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 09:01:00 -
[139] - Quote
Elanor Vega wrote:Get rid of mineral drops from drones!!! give industry a chance!!!
YES and give the drones bounty!!!! That the ISK is even more WORTHLESS in EvE....!!
|
Preki
WEPRA CORP White Noise.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 09:40:00 -
[140] - Quote
Witchking Angmar wrote:Wait.. You're nerfing them again? I thought the idea was to improve them?
More rats in a single anomaly means the ISK per hour ratio will remain pretty much unaffected (assuming the spawns aren't harder to tank etc.), but completing the anomaly will take longer which will give you less chances at faction spawns and escalations.
So true.
Solution to increase earning to zerosec pilots is simple.
1. Anomalies remain the same in structure, but the NPCs have higher bounties. As a result, you would spend the same time doing 1 site but the isk/hour would be greater.
2. Since DED sites do not drop good modules/salvage often anymore (and if that was to increase, the prices of these would consequently go down), increase the purchase price of Tier items so that all pilots involved would not have spent their time in vain.
In addition, consider limiting afk cloaking by for example implementing a time limited activity of cloaking modules. |
|
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 10:15:00 -
[141] - Quote
There are too any sob stories in this thread for my taste. I though zero sec dwellers were supposed to be more "Chuck Norris"-like. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
WisdomLikeSilence
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
70
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 10:17:00 -
[142] - Quote
The problem with the anom nerf was not the changes themselves (the figures) but the philosophy behind it, to whit:
"we will make some space useless".
THis went back on the deal that CCP made with players when they introduced all the system upgrading mechanics and the very expensive equipment that went along with it. CCP encouraged players to carve out a slice of 0.0 for themselves, then reneged on it - making all our time, isk and hard work POINTLESS. This was done virtually overnight, with no preamble, no warning and an attitude of "suck it up"
Result: whole alliances are being gutted by players leaving in disgust. Believe me, more people unsubbed over this than over complaints about incarna.
So While I appreciate the mea culpa, I still think Greyscale should be let go. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 10:42:00 -
[143] - Quote
Preki wrote:In addition, consider limiting afk cloaking by for example implementing a time limited activity of cloaking modules.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Sorry, that was uncalled for.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
That's a terrible idea!
A better one I've seen floating around is to disable the local window and remove yourself from local while cloaked. It could probably use a few tweaks, but it's much better than putting timers on cloaks. Bahahahahahaha, just thinking about timed cloaks makes me giddy with laughter. Sounds like something a nullbear would say. |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 10:48:00 -
[144] - Quote
Where have you gone, Greyscale? Your input and analysis on the points brought up in this thread would be appreciated. |
Preki
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:01:00 -
[145] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote:Preki wrote:In addition, consider limiting afk cloaking by for example implementing a time limited activity of cloaking modules. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Sorry, that was uncalled for. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's a terrible idea! A better one I've seen floating around is to disable the local window and remove yourself from local while cloaked. It could probably use a few tweaks, but it's much better than putting timers on cloaks. Bahahahahahaha, just thinking about timed cloaks makes me giddy with laughter. Sounds like something a nullbear would say.
Whatever the solution may be.
I have pointed out a problem which certainly annoys a lot of players, does not have any countermeasure and is giving the ability to the cloaker to play the game while he is actually afk. This is the same as botting - playing the game and having an effect on you/your surroundings while you are afk. |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:08:00 -
[146] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Vicar2008 wrote:You have buffed the Anoms, great sure, but in that Blog maybe i am reading it wrong, but are the way they are being distrubuted being relaxed also? Or are they still being reserved in the True sec status regions, aka 0.00 systems still seeing non, -0.40 mabe seeing one and the -0.80 to -1.00 getting the best? We're not changing the distribution at this time, BUT we're not changing it because a lot of the "not-good" sites are being upgraded to "really very good". 0.00-ish systems will have the same sites in, for example, but those sites should be considerably better than they currently are.
My issue with the current distrubution is, that the systems have usually 1 or 2 anoms worth running, and the rest are highsec trash. After upgrading to lvl4-5, you can have forlorn hubs, which are starting to be decent, and the havens/sanctums are waaaay better than any other sites. Is that possible that every 00 system gets less of the highsec trash anoms, we we actually get a somewhat better sites? If a system is above -0.2 it needs like lvl5 upgrade to get a single forlorn hub, which will be the only sites worths running. The rest are wasted time. The sites distributed seems like a "lots of unworthy trash + 1 worthy" site, though it can be up to 3-4 sites worth running in systems below -0.8. So we have like 20 anoms, people are running 1 to 3 out of them. |
Duke Hamilton1
Judgment Day Technology SOLAR WING
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:25:00 -
[147] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS5IHVKRzwc |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:27:00 -
[148] - Quote
Didona Carpenito wrote:So how does this effect low sec?
Can you give rough ISK:EHP values for the smaller sites, e.g. hubs, ports, rally points and yards?
I'm reluctant to give out numbers on stuff like this right now, because I've not thought through the ramifications of what a smart player could do with the data :)
StukaBee wrote:I'd very much like to see a greater variation in the types of anomalies available (maybe even randomised spawns), any chance of this in the future?
Either way, good to see that things are changing.
We've been talking about mixing up each wave more, so there's a little more unpredictability in each site without making it so unpredictable that it's not profitable to run any more. That'd be a future change though, if it happens.
Freelancer'Spb wrote:Also two suggestions: Make npc's in anomalies more smart, like in incursions. Make scanned anomalies appear into the space and overview like belts. This thing in the solarsystem map is too awkward .
We actually looked into anomalies on the overview, but it opens a can of worms, particularly WRT space-clutter, so we pushed it back for now.
BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK..
Drone region anomalies weren't touched as part of this specific project - we're just balancing on bounty payout this time around and as drones don't have a bounty, we still don't have the tools to properly assess their worth.
Ingvar Angst wrote:Have you considered, if I may, the possibility that distribution is one of the main problems in null? By grouping the best into pockets of null you encourage mega-alliances to control those specific pockets leaving surrounding areas much more devoid. It may be worth considering changing the sec stat of many systems to lower in order to smear the best systems across much larger areas of space... areas too large for the megas to claim all of without stretching themselves too thin. This would open even more space for smaller alliances to try and get a foothold in... space that would really be worth going for and not the sloppy seconds of the megas.
Just a thought.
This is pretty much by design. There need to be incentives for powerful alliances to claim manageable chunks of space and settle down there, both because it acts as one motivation to fight, and because getting big powerful alliances to settle down somewhere rich is one of the main tools we have for giving them an expiry date (see: Deklein). On top of that, space that's really worth going for doesn't get generally get settled by new alliances, it gets settled by old alliances. It's only by creating areas of space that older richer alliances consider "worthless" that we can create places where new alliances can learn the ropes without getting stomped on.
|
|
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:27:00 -
[149] - Quote
Dierdra Vaal wrote:My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite? Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?
The data I have in front of me suggest that - excluding PLEX - inflation has been relatively stable since mid 2008. We generally see increased volatility around expansions, but our CPI today is about the same as it was circa Q2 2008. We do need to do more work to balance out our ISK flows, but we also need people to be playing our game, and specifically we need people to be running anomalies if we want nullsec to be a healthy area of the game.
Louis deGuerre wrote:I find it hard to get an idea about the impact of this, but I am glad something has been done.
What I would really like to see is dynamic distribution of anomalies according to space usage. Too much killing in one system, less sites, abandoned systems, more sites. This would do wonders for 0.0, force players to move around (thinking of botting here too !), more kills on gates, it would solve so many problems...
Peace
The problem with this sort of approach is that it pushes people away from settling down and towards a more hunter-gatherer lifestyle, which isn't currently the direction we want nullsec to be generally moving in.
Zimmy Zeta wrote:Thanks for being so honest. But you do realize that all this poison spitting was because we care for eve? If we wouldn`t, we would just unsub, shave our neckbeards, move out of mom's basement and get a job. It is not possible to care for eve without caring for ccp as well, that means every one of you. So, welcome back to the forums, Greyscale, and have a free hug from me.
Yup, that's taken as read, don't worry :)
Jojo Yohan wrote:What about the nerf to the Drone Horde anomaly that is currently on Sisi. It appears that you're cutting down the ISK/hour by at least a factor of 2 on that one.
Drone Horde was a separate issue - those sites were breaking completely if you one-shotted the bunkers. It was also never intended that you could speed up the completion rate by spawning all the NPCs at once, so that was corrected as part of the bugfix. This site should now be more in line with other comparable anomalies and with the original design intent.
|
|
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:27:00 -
[150] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:With the feeling that this one might go unoticed by Grayscale:
What about the Forsaken Hubs? They are buggy, have been buggy since implementation, and at this moment they make 0.3 to 0.4 null systems quite frustrating.
What bug, you ask? Simple.. they spawn with no rats, and in some cases no amount of GM mojo can make them work again. We have to wait sometimes for 3 consecutive downtimes for them to spawn properly, only to bug out again the next day.
Bettik did some general clean-up work while he was tweaking everything, and adjustments were made to Forsaken Hubs to try and make them a little more robust. If they're still breaking post-patch, please file more bug reports!
RaZor Flash wrote:All CCP did was add more ships to the anomalies, effectively making them harder, so you can't solo them as easily as you could.
1. With the perma neuting battleships, you have to shoot them from range causing less damage. 2. You need a better tank, less damage.
Less damage = killing a lot slower = worse isk/hour. This is *very* bad.
Generally, what was done was to swap low-bounty rats out for high-bounty rats of the same class, mostly replacing low-end battleships with high-end battleships and tougher cruisers with battlecruisers. In a few cases numbers were increased where all the useful swapping had already been done without meeting targets. If you've got concerns with or examples of specific sites you're finding problematic, please post them here :)
Arkady Sadik wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote:EHP->ISK therefore drones are not affected I think you misunderstood him. Assumptions: - Anomaly value in these spreadsheets is not calculated as "bounty only", but "bounty + drop + salvage" - Just because drone anomalies are called hordes and not sanctums doesn't mean they aren't covered Deduction: - Drone anomalies are affected as well, and have adjusted (better) payout (as measured by drop + salvage) as well You can of course argue that the assumptions are surely wrong, but I wouldn't rely on it without a confirmation from CCP either way :-)
This time round we're just looking at pure bounties, on the assumption that drop/salvage is relatively consistent between NPCs of the same class. Also, as above, drone anomalies weren't looked at as part of this change, unfortunately.
|
|
|
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:31:00 -
[151] - Quote
Jieirn Devau wrote: Three months ago you posted two blogs about Null and what it should be. Its time for an update and an actual outline. The players are giving you more feedback than ever before and its quality feedback, not just complaints. We are doing this because we care about this game and where it goes. So give us an outline, let us look in the little black book and get a glimpse of the secret. Then put out some framework for it, make it cohesive, include lowsec, and show us that you have seen the same vision that CCP showed us. Once that is done and only then, release this change. As much as we like making money, this does us no good till the other pieces are in place. This is NOT a PRIORITY, its a little token of yours in apology for the massive mistake that the last anom change was. Reading over the forums you can see that we are past that, that anoms will not bring back the players to nullsec. It gives us nothing, and we can plan for nothing with it. Let us in on the plan, or work with us to make it. Right it looks like you don't have one.
We've not done significant work on our overall vision for nullsec since the blogs published over the summer, because we've been working on other things. When we refocus on nullsec again you'll be hearing more about this sort of thing, but right now we're not saying a lot because we don't have a lot of additional stuff to say.
Magic Crisp wrote:My issue with the current distrubution is, that the systems have usually 1 or 2 anoms worth running, and the rest are highsec trash. After upgrading to lvl4-5, you can have forlorn hubs, which are starting to be decent, and the havens/sanctums are waaaay better than any other sites. Is that possible that every 00 system gets less of the highsec trash anoms, we we actually get a somewhat better sites? If a system is above -0.2 it needs like lvl5 upgrade to get a single forlorn hub, which will be the only sites worths running. The rest are wasted time. The sites distributed seems like a "lots of unworthy trash + 1 worthy" site, though it can be up to 3-4 sites worth running in systems below -0.8. So we have like 20 anoms, people are running 1 to 3 out of them.
Forsaken Rally Point comes in about 5% worse than Forlorn Hub in the new system, and Hidden Rally Point and one of the Hub sites are probably down 10%. (Forlorn Hub is now on par with the two Haven sites, for reference.)
Evelgrivion wrote:Where have you gone, Greyscale? Your input and analysis on the points brought up in this thread would be appreciated.
Went home, played Skyrim :) |
|
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:41:00 -
[152] - Quote
Preki wrote:Chicken Pizza wrote:Preki wrote:In addition, consider limiting afk cloaking by for example implementing a time limited activity of cloaking modules. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Sorry, that was uncalled for. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's a terrible idea! A better one I've seen floating around is to disable the local window and remove yourself from local while cloaked. It could probably use a few tweaks, but it's much better than putting timers on cloaks. Bahahahahahaha, just thinking about timed cloaks makes me giddy with laughter. Sounds like something a nullbear would say. Whatever the solution may be. I have pointed out a problem which certainly annoys a lot of players, does not have any countermeasure and is giving the ability to the cloaker to play the game while he is actually afk. This is the same as botting - playing the game and having an effect on you/your surroundings while you are afk.
|
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:44:00 -
[153] - Quote
Please don't turn this into an afk-cloaker thread kthx |
|
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:58:00 -
[154] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Stuff he said
Thx for your replies!
DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:02:00 -
[155] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:Where have you gone, Greyscale? Your input and analysis on the points brought up in this thread would be appreciated. Went home, played Skyrim :)
You mean you went home and... enjoyed yourself!?
Thanks for taking the time to reply again, Greyscale. There remains one major sticking point in regards to income in highsec vs lowsec and nullsec. This may be beyond the scope of what you want to discuss with this blog, but will it be addressed in the near future? This change isn't worth quite as much, in and of itself, without serious re-evaluation of other, safer means of income. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
211
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:03:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Drone region anomalies weren't touched as part of this specific project - we're just balancing on bounty payout this time around and as drones don't have a bounty, we still don't have the tools to properly assess their worth. I can see how that might be difficult, as their worth depends on market price. But I think it would be really useful to do that, as some NPCs have subjectively quite different value due to salvage (Serpentis vs. Angels, say). You should be able to get "average market price" for minerals, drops and salvage quite easily, so that measure would not be too difficult to implement (I think :-)).
It might also be interesting to start measuring "average completion time" for anomalies. This will give you a better measure than EHP, and even more importantly, it will point out which NPCs are disproportionally "more difficult" than others - either increasing their payout slightly, or being a point of reference for game balancing.
(NB: It's not entirely bad to have "differently-difficult" NPCs in general, as that is another factor for making space "worth more" or "worth less", but it'd be good to have that in sight for game balance) |
Floydd Heywood
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:10:00 -
[157] - Quote
I wonder whether Greyscale and other relevant people agree in principle with the following statement:
"Players should earn their ISK at the same place they do pvp; they should really live in that place and not finance their real char with an alt that makes the money for him, because only if players spend most of their time outside of hisec they are vulnerable, which generates conflict. If players only enter 0.0 for pvp then pvp only happens for the sake of having pvp."
If CCP agrees with this in principle, then the only way to achieve this is making all acitivities available in hisec GÇô and I mean every single one with no exceptions GÇô significantly worse paying than what you can do in low/null. Only then will people actually live in low/null and not just go there for roams.
If I can make 100m ISK/hour in 0.0 and 150 in hisec, I will do my PvE in hisec. If I make 160 in null and 150 in hisec, most will still do it in hisec. But if I can make 150 in null and only 50 in hisec, then many people will move to null. Hisec will become the domain of industry, noobs and hardcore-carebears who fear risk so much they'll never leave hisec no matter what.
Now the big problem: Nerfing hisec will cause a major uproar because most people live in hisec. Half of them will ragequit and CCP and EVE would die.
Possible solution: Do the nerf stealthily. Don't reduce hisec income, but increase inflation massively. At the same time, buff null income significantly. That way hisec grinders will initially not feel a nerf; they still get the same ISK in, numbers-wise. Only their ISK will have less value over time. If you do this over a period of one year or so, hisec will be nerfed compared to null, but there will be no single event that hurts people. The pain is spread over time. Instead of feeling completely shafted from one day to the other, hisec dwellers realize over time that moving to nullsec would really be worth it for them. |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:25:00 -
[158] - Quote
Floydd Heywood wrote:tl;dr, nerf highsec income by inflating the hell out of ISK
While I approve of the motivation, I can't say I approve of the chosen means. A slow nerf would definitely be needed, but I'd take a less damaging, soft approach.
- Increase the average distance traveled for each high security mission
- Alter Incursions to offer substantially less income in High Security Space
- Alternatively, remove Incursions from High Security Space entirely
- Penalize bounty payouts when running multiple missions at the same time
- Reduce the bonus payout window to its former, smaller size
- Add a number of common, commodity goods to the LP store as a functional ISK sink
These are just soft nerf ideas off the top of my head. More comprehensive revisions could always come later; however, It would not be wise to make that "later" a particularly long period of time. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
143
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:31:00 -
[159] - Quote
one of the ideas from the old nerf topic was:
keep the anom spawns the same and change the value of the rats depending on the sec lvl of that system.
so each system at upgrade 5 would get 2 sanctums 2 havens 2 ports etc etc
but the values of the rats would be linked to the sec so that in a 0.0 /-0.2 band would be say 1mil bs's -0.2/-0.45 band would be 1.2mil bs's etc etc up to the -1.0's having 1.8mil bs's
that way you keep the worth of each system while making the true sec matter.
having worthless systems is well worthless. 0.0 is ment to be populated but people making isk to fund pvp(basicly how it was before the changes), the changes listed in this blog arnt enough to revert yourfuck up from the last nerf imo. CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Floydd Heywood
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:41:00 -
[160] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:These are just soft nerf ideas off the top of my head. More comprehensive revisions could always come later; however, It would not be wise to make that "later" a particularly long period of time.
That would achieve the goal, but what is "soft" about it? Your proposal would crash the ISK/hour for hisec PvE immediately, and the rage storm would be terrible
No incursions in hisec: Players simply cannot do anymore in hisec what they like to do now. It's hard to think of any change harder than that.
All other proposals will directly lead to more time needed to get same ISK, which effectively means less ISK/hour. |
|
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:50:00 -
[161] - Quote
Floydd Heywood wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:These are just soft nerf ideas off the top of my head. More comprehensive revisions could always come later; however, It would not be wise to make that "later" a particularly long period of time. That would achieve the goal, but what is "soft" about it? Your proposal would crash the ISK/hour for hisec PvE immediately, and the rage storm would be terrible No incursions in hisec: Players simply cannot do anymore in hisec what they like to do now. It's hard to think of any change harder than that. All other proposals will directly lead to more time needed to get same ISK, which effectively means less ISK/hour.
That's the point, and that's what's necessary. Trying to balance upwards with currency is stupid because it diminishes the value of prior achievements. This is an area where Eve and WoW are similar; you don't want to make players feel like the time they invested before to have been a waste. When players feel like they've been wasting their time, they feel no compulsion to continue investing in themselves into the game. |
S8nt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:51:00 -
[162] - Quote
S8nt wrote:Hi,
With the calculations now done with these Anomalies, could you please now go work out the following:
- ISK per hour for mining in belts in say angel space where there is a crapload of ABC's - ISK per hour mining in say Tribute where there is no ABC's - ISK per hour mining in system upgraded Grav sites at say a resonable level 3 or 4?
Please CCP, if there is one thing you do this expansion, please fix mining so that it doesn't have to be bot run to make a semi decent income.
S8nt
CCP Greyscale,
With regards to ISK coming in and out it might be constant. But could you please tell me why mineral prices have fallen so much since 2008. Mega if I am correct was at around 3400 a unit and Zid was at 2600 a unit. Those two minerals now in Jita is at around 2700 for Mega and 775 for Zydrine. How has that stayed constant since 2008? How does ratting compare to mining?
Could you please comment.
S8nt |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 13:08:00 -
[163] - Quote
Floydd Heywood wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:These are just soft nerf ideas off the top of my head. More comprehensive revisions could always come later; however, It would not be wise to make that "later" a particularly long period of time. That would achieve the goal, but what is "soft" about it? Your proposal would crash the ISK/hour for hisec PvE immediately, and the rage storm would be terrible No incursions in hisec: Players simply cannot do anymore in hisec what they like to do now. It's hard to think of any change harder than that. All other proposals will directly lead to more time needed to get same ISK, which effectively means less ISK/hour.
Well, if you nerfe HighSec (eg. deleting Incursions) that would only affect 90% of Eve players. Nobody will miss them, when they leave Eve. That would make HighSec as good populatad as 0.0.
[/irony] [/sarcasm]
Why do you people always want to make everyone to play eve the way you play it? Leave those Carebears alone. Let them play EVE the way they like. Inkluding running 10 times a day "Damsel in Distress" with killing the Damsel and rescuing Krull (or was it the other way around?)
Why does everyone have to be in low / 0.0 and kill other Players?
It is a Sandbox for gods sake and not one big PvP area.
If you want someone to get out of Highsec you have to show him the carrot and not push him with a Stick, because if he feels the stick, he dosn't come back and quit. So make the carrot nice and delisious so they want to get to 0.0 and low.
And never forget: No matter what carrot you present, how nice it tasts, how beautiful it is, there are always people who like meat more than carrots. DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 13:13:00 -
[164] - Quote
Neo Agricola wrote:Well, if you nerfe HighSec (eg. deleting Incursions) that would only affect 90% of Eve players. Nobody will miss them, when they leave Eve. That would make HighSec as good populatad as 0.0.
[/irony] [/sarcasm]
Why do you people always want to make everyone to play eve the way you play it? Leave those Carebears alone. Let them play EVE the way they like. Inkluding running 10 times a day "Damsel in Distress" with killing the Damsel and rescuing Krull (or was it the other way around?)
Why does everyone have to be in low / 0.0 and kill other Players?
It is a Sandbox for gods sake and not one big PvP area.
If you want someone to get out of Highsec you have to show him the carrot and not push him with a Stick, because if he feels the stick, he dosn't come back and quit. So make the carrot nice and delisious so they want to get to 0.0 and low.
And never forget: No matter what carrot you present, how nice it tasts, how beautiful it is, there are always people who like meat more than carrots.
What you said would be fair and reasonable if what one player did had no impact on the other. Obviously, that's not how Eve Online works.
I'm not saying you need to go to 0.0; what I am saying is that high security space should never approach the maximums offered by dangerous space. Balancing upwards will not work, but balancing downwards will have to be handled carefully, gently, and slowly to avoid pissing people off.
I'm not looking to change the fundamentals of how carebears play the game, I'm asking them to take it down a notch, because the ISK that's flooding the game lines the coffers of the moon goo makers while pushing the economies of scale to new, absurd, effort devaluating heights. I'm not expecting anyone to like it. |
Floydd Heywood
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 13:36:00 -
[165] - Quote
No one will ever be forced to leave hisec. You can continue carebearing all your life, you'll just have to be content with the fact that you will make a lot less money per hour than the guys taking risks.
"Evelgrivion" wrote:That's the point, and that's what's necessary. Trying to balance upwards with currency is stupid because it diminishes the value of prior achievements. This is an area where Eve and WoW are similar; you don't want to make players feel like the time they invested before to have been a waste. When players feel like they've been wasting their time, they feel no compulsion to continue investing in themselves into the game.
Ok, but what achievements would be devalued if prices were 100% higher tomorrow? Towers, Ships, Sov Structures or items accumulated will still be there and be as useful as before. The only "achievement" that loses value is the liquid ISK in your wallet. I'm pretty sure that most individual players do not hoard large sums of liquid ISK in their wallets. Most will have only 1 billion or even less. So the loss of previous investments would be rather minor.
I hear that alliances often have trillions of ISK in their wallets. But that is a bad thing in itself, and it would be good if those virtually inexhaustible lakes of ISK were drained dry. The massive passive income is another major problem of EVE. |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 13:45:00 -
[166] - Quote
Floydd Heywood wrote:I hear that alliances often have trillions of ISK in their wallets. But that is a bad thing in itself, and it would be good if those virtually inexhaustible lakes of ISK were drained dry. The massive passive income is another major problem of EVE.
The income is only as valuable as the constraints on supply and the amount of ISK available to pay for it. Giving more players inevitably gives more economic power to the moon holders. |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 13:48:00 -
[167] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote: What you said would be fair and reasonable if what one player did had no impact on the other. .
Not exactly. Basically: You need Carebears as much as 0.0 Players. - Producing Goods - Mining minerals - Buying Faction / Officer Stuff.
Who buyes Machariels / Vindis / CN Invul Fields if not the Carebears? Guys like R&K, PL and other elite PvPlers. Are they 10% of the PvPlers? Don't know but I guess no. (yes I know some guys do solo PvP in Pirate Ships, some make Anos in Pirate ships and so on, but I dont think they are that many)
Evelgrivion wrote: I'm not saying you need to go to 0.0; what I am saying is that high security space should never approach the maximums offered by dangerous space.
100% Agree
Evelgrivion wrote: Balancing upwards will not work
I dont think so, but ok.
Evelgrivion wrote: but balancing downwards will have to be handled carefully, gently, and slowly to avoid pissing people off.
And I don't think that will work. Because if you start to take the candies from the High sec Carebears, they will stop to play eve. I think if you cut Incursions by more than 10% they are as lucrative as LvL4 Missions and we already have a lot of them for a long time...
Evelgrivion wrote: I'm not looking to change the fundamentals of how carebears play the game, I'm asking them to take it down a notch, because the ISK that's flooding the game lines the coffers of the moon goo makers while pushing the economies of scale to new, absurd, effort devaluating heights. I'm not expecting anyone to like it at a personal level.
And that is the error in my opinion. The moon goo is the problem and you want cuts for the High Sec Mission runners???
CCP is already working in a way to reduce the money in game: Insureance Payout with Concord Cheaper Gank Ships a.s.o.
Especially those new Gank Ships will reduce those Tengu Fleets in Highsec dramatically. Because now you can gank a Tengu with one ship just for the LOLs...
And last but not least:
Last time I heard something about ISK Flow it was something like: "0.0 Anomalys are the greatest source of Income". And I think, if CCP would be able to get rid of 80% of current bots, we would had a better economy. less isk flow, less minerals (mining would be better payed) a.s.o.
DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:03:00 -
[168] - Quote
I've never been one that has popular opinions on what is the right direction for Eve Online's game mechanics.
Yes, I am asking for mission runners to take the raw cut in income; representing 90% of the playerbase and making a substantial chunk of change per person in safe space, high security space dwelling players represent the largest source of currency in Eve.
This is not to say that 0.0 pilots should be immune either. In my ideal world, ISK generation should not average above 50 or 60 million ISK an hour. With Sanctums pushing 120 million ISK per hour, I'm asking for the amount of money these features provide to be cut in half.
The only way this all works out in the end is if people are willing to live with less ISK and less abundant raw materials. The tradeoff is deeper attachment to the game, a greater appreciation for the assets you hold, a stronger desire of other players to take what you've earned and a greater willingness to fight to keep what you have once you have it.
Fighting for what you have is what made Eve Online interesting. The greater and greater quantities of stuff with which players have been bearing it up is damaging to the appeal of the game. As a PVP pilot, my play is more interesting when I can't replace my ships with the same ease and knowing my foes have the same difficulties.
Nobody likes having things taken away from them, but you appreciate what you have a lot more if you have to work harder to get it. I'm not saying you should be grinding several hours per day over a week to replace one battleship, but the current state of affairs isn't where I think they should be. |
TOTALHELLD3ATH
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:20:00 -
[169] - Quote
Jojo Yohan wrote:Zendoren wrote:Jojo Yohan wrote: I do not see where any of us are asking for a buff. We just don't want our "buffed" anomalies to mean that we will need to work twice as long for the same amount of alloys (note that there is a difference between alloys and isk).
Quote:we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal, using mainly battlecruisers and high-value battleships to minimize the additional Effective Hit Points added to the site as a whole. This suggest that they are calculating anomalies profitability by its collective EHP. This means that the total amount of isk gain within a site is directly proportional to the amount of damage one must put in it to finish the site. I do not see where drone sites were specifically mentioned; however, i would suspect that drones were left untouched and the rest of the anomalies were buff to bring them inline to the amount of damage that must be done in drone sites. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to profit from anomalies (Drops, bounties, and salvage). Since drones rely mostly on drops and salvage (not a drone region resident sorry), CCP should have accounted for the profitability of Drone sites correctly if they did indeed use the above method. I read that. They also said that they use this metric because ISK/hour has a lot of noise since everyone has their own pace/ship/setup that directly affects how fast they can complete and salvage an anomaly. So while they may have increased the drops and drones in total, they actually increased the time it takes to do the anomaly considerably. This time increase is due to the fact that one can no longer destroy the four bunkers in 1 version of the anomaly and now must do this anomaly wave by wave. Drastically increasing the time and making it impossible to salvage while running this anomaly. There is already a version of Drone Horde that requires you to do waves, and no one runs that version because it already takes too much time. Maybe this post will answer a few more questions as to why this change is not a good one, and it has nothing to do with coddling the drone regions. It also seems that some people have no clue what the problem is, so I stated it above. tl;dr -> The version of drone horde that allowed you to spawn all the drones and agro them and then bring in your looter at the same time was nerfed so that it has to be done wave by wave, increasing the total time to finish it and therefore lowering ISK/hour, even though ISK/EHP may have increased, this will still lead to a lower income for everyone running this anomaly.
Greyscale hope you are reading and listening for feedback. Please do not make this change so that you cannot pop all the drone bunkers and to get the full spawn. We may not need a buff like the pirate anomalies do but at least spare us the nerf bat.
My corp left Angel space for a "better" system because of the anom nerf in March. Now we are going to get the nerf bat again??? I would be OK with the change as is if we had bounties rather than drone poo, but being able to pay some noob in a noctis to cleanup while you run the site is key to doing these hordes efficiently. I would love it if drones were changed to give bounty rather than alloys, I think it would fix alot of the problems with mining. But as it is now even with ABC ores in the belts they rarely are touched because if I want minerals I can get them quicker ratting, not to mention what the influx of all those alloys have on the macro economy of eve.
Please reconsider this change to the Horde spawn mechanic.
|
BigCountry
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:29:00 -
[170] - Quote
I am afraid I have to give two thumbs down to this... You didnt add battleships or more alloys becuase you cant properly value them fine.... but by changing them in the manner you did you basically messed us over while buffing everyone else...
Honestly for the most part ppl in the Drone Regions prefer doing these anamolies in the fashion they were done cuz we already have more work involved in making our isk then ppl in other regions..
We dont get bounties... we dont get mod drops .... we dont get faction loot... and our main source of income entirely depends on current market prices.... In other space if mineral values go down , the ISK value of rats does not drop..
So why isnt it ok for us to have slightly easier to do anamolies.... we have to kill, then loot , then haul , then sell before we make 1 ISK for our effort... |
|
Cyrus Doul
5 Inch Incorporated Shadow of xXDEATHXx
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:35:00 -
[171] - Quote
Temmu Guerra wrote:Jojo Yohan wrote:Temmu Guerra wrote: And jojo get a carrier and hit all bunkers at once.
After this patch that won't be possible. Another reason this is a nerf. I said carrier not super carrier. Sentry II's and heavy drone II's are just as good if not better then fighters.
For those of you who are not drone land people:
Hitting all bunkers at once does one nice thing for you. It gets all the spawns, so with that carrier you can fit to tank the entire site. This could be said that it speeds up the site as you don't have to wait for the triggered rats to get into range and you don't have to spend the extra 30 second for the new wave to aggro the carrier so your drones don't pop. These couple of minutes you save isn't worth that much. Saving 3 minutes a site at best at 75 million per hour is like maybe four million extra per site.
Now that four million per site is quickly negated when we have to loot / salvage everything or we make no money. A level five ore industrial level 5 salvager can just barely keep up with a pair of carriers in one of these sites. Letting the two carriers kill everything by themselves letting drones auto aggro lets you micromanage the Noctis as its a full time job. You try and do it any differently and it will cut into your productivity big time.
Also, I'm lucky enough to live in a station system so i can just dock and dump the loot quickly, Our upper end sites, the Horde, drops approx 2900 to 3100 m3 of loot per site. you quickly fill up and if you live five or six jumps from a station system you now have to make a 10 - 12 jump round trip journey to dump at most 29k m3 of loot with a t2 rigged iteron 5 per trip. That time adds up extremely fast as lost profits.
Finally, a drone Horde is worth about 23 - 25 million each, I know the angel and gurista sanctums are better then that. especially with the 10 million isk faction bs that pops out every so often. our faction bs are actually worth less then a regular as they do not have bounties, and they drop ****** drone parts instead of drone compounds unless they drop a bpc which is like every 1 out of 50 or so if you are lucky. |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:38:00 -
[172] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:I've never been one that has popular opinions on what is the right direction for Eve Online's game mechanics. I can live with that, but only IF it makes Eve a better place!
Evelgrivion wrote: Yes, I am asking for mission runners to take the raw cut in income; representing 90% of the playerbase and making a substantial chunk of change per person in safe space, high security space dwelling players represent the largest source of currency in Eve.
As far as I got the last Dev Blog about ano chanes (you know the one in March with the 1xx pages of rage) they arent. The biggest source of ISK are anos (Bots anyone?)
Evelgrivion wrote: This is not to say that 0.0 pilots should be immune either. In my ideal world, ISK generation should not average above 50 or 60 million ISK an hour. With Sanctums pushing 120 million ISK per hour, I'm asking for the amount of money these features provide to be cut in half.
Ok, from my point of view:
I have about 2 h per day for eve. I have to spend 1 for corp duties and about 1 h for "fun". E.g. Incursions, Pos shooting, dying with my Stealthbomber against a Titan, whatever so if you cut my earning in half i have to grind 1 h for a BC and 2-3 h for a BS. Which means i have less time for PvP
Evelgrivion wrote: The only way this all works out in the end is if people are willing to live with less ISK and less abundant raw materials. The tradeoff is deeper attachment to the game, a greater appreciation for the assets you hold, a stronger desire of other players to take what you've earned and a greater willingness to fight to keep what you have once you have it.
Fighting for what you have is what made Eve Online interesting. The greater and greater quantities of stuff with which players have been bearing it up is damaging to the appeal of the game. As a PVP pilot, my play is more interesting when I can't replace my ships with the same ease and knowing my foes have the same difficulties.
Nobody likes having things taken away from them, but you appreciate what you have a lot more if you have to work harder to get it. I'm not saying you should be grinding several hours per day over a week to replace one battleship, but the current state of affairs isn't where I think they should be.
Which means less PvP because people have less time, because they need more time for replacing Ships => more grint, less fun...
I see your point, but I dont think that will make EVE a better place. It will make it harder, People will blob more, because they want to avoid losing there ship... DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
TOTALHELLD3ATH
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:40:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Drone Horde was a separate issue - those sites were breaking completely if you one-shotted the bunkers. It was also never intended that you could speed up the completion rate by spawning all the NPCs at once, so that was corrected as part of the bugfix. This site should now be more in line with other comparable anomalies and with the original design intent.
Smart folks knew that one-shotting the bunkers was bad and that you failed to get spawns. That's why we just zap them with a target painter.
bugfix, original design intent, whatever you call it no matter how good this change is on the whole for 0.0...
the sites I run are being NERFED.
|
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:42:00 -
[174] - Quote
Neo Agricola wrote:I see your point, but I dont think that will make EVE a better place. It will make it harder, People will blob more, because they want to avoid losing there ship...
People overcompensate for everything with numbers. There will be no direct translation upwards or downwards because ships are suddenly magically more valuable because people do it, and will continue to do it regardless.
If you only have two hours to commit to Eve Online each night, you should probably work on committing different things to different days or partake to a greater degree in activities that are waiting-game friendly for cash generation. Grinding raw ISK has always been a sucker's game, but that's a poor excuse to make it easier for the suckers. |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:44:00 -
[175] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:Neo Agricola wrote:I see your point, but I dont think that will make EVE a better place. It will make it harder, People will blob more, because they want to avoid losing there ship... People overcompensate for everything with numbers. There will be no direct translation upwards or downwards due to ships suddenly being more valuable than before; people will still blob, just as they have before, irrespective of the impact of individual loss. People are no less risk averse today than they were four years ago and it's a lot easier to replace a ship now than it was then. If you only have two hours to commit to Eve Online each night, you should probably work on committing different things to different days or partake to a greater degree in activities that are waiting-game friendly for cash generation. Grinding raw ISK has always been a sucker's game, but that's a poor excuse to make it easier for the suckers. Basically, you are telling me how i should play eve... :-) DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:46:00 -
[176] - Quote
Neo Agricola wrote:Basically, you are telling me how i should play eve... :-)
I certainly was in that post, but the way you play the game now, in the past, and for all time is and shall be a product of what the rules and tools enable you to do.
|
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:07:00 -
[177] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:Neo Agricola wrote:Basically, you are telling me how i should play eve... :-) I certainly was in that post, but the way you play the game now, in the past, and for all time is, and always shall be a product of what the rules and tools enable you to do.
Yeah. and you want to change the tools, so everyone is playing the game "the right way".
All I say is:
Whatever CCP is doing, they have to be very carefull about:
- ISK flow - Account subscription - enough PvP - Sandbox
there are a lot of things they have to keep in mind, when they start to change the Cash Flow in Eve. And I don't think, 1) cutting Missionrunners ernings to half will make them happy. And I don't know how you look at it, but if I'm not happy with my Sandbox, I get out of it... (been there, done that, got the scars)
2) Most of the ISKs are not generated in Highsec, it is from 0.0 Anomalys... so, what does it help to cut Missionrunners? (perhaps those figures are outdated, since i dont have any access to current figures...)
Evelgrivion wrote: I'm not saying you have to go out and PVE in nullsec if you don't want to; what I am saying is that if you want to make ISK like you do now, you should have to go to nullsec to get it.
I know, our little blue dot on the influence Map is barely visible, but I'm living in 0.0...
And for your information, Money is not going to drive one single carebear out of Highsec into 0.0. If you are a carebear, you will not leave High, what ever reason there is. You will leave Eve if you are not happy with Highsec.
And that Risk vs. Reward thing. I think it is Bullsh*t.
I don't know why you are living in 0.0, but for me it is the fun, which drives me to 0.0. Nice Corp, nice kills, nice fights, building my own Castle...
DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:18:00 -
[178] - Quote
A game without risk for reward is bereft of value and devoid of entertainment that's worth more than a giggle.
Yes, CCP has to be careful, yes I know this won't drive anyone into 0.0 from highsec if high sec is the game they are looking to play; that is not the goal. The purpose of an income nerf is to make nullsec the most desirable place to live so the most competitive players have something to do, without resorting to even more, endless, inflation. |
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:21:00 -
[179] - Quote
Bear in mind that changes need to work with some factors in mind.
1. No null sec Alliance that I'm aware of has ever invaded someone because "they have good anomalies". We do it because they represent an existential threat or because we want their moon goo. Most of all we do it because it's fun.
2. The distribution of a valuable anomaly is directly connected to small scale PvP. More valuable anomalies in an area, the more people ratting in 0.0 which in turn offers increased targets resulting in an increase to small roaming to go kill them.
If you're serious about overhauling nullsec so that it's more profitable to live out here than running around High Sec in relative saftey farming Incursions all day, as well as attracting more customers to your product by dispelling the perception that Eve is a laggy game, then you need to be creating as much content for small scale warfare as possible. Large scale warfare will always happen in Eve, simply because it's fun but increasing small scale roaming in null sec starts with increasing PvE content. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:21:00 -
[180] - Quote
StukaBee wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:Ya Huei wrote:They could always nerf those L4 Missions It's far more important that they nerf Incursions. Best to be on the safe side, nerf them both.
Nerf what, how?
What's the purpose of nerf those?
What result are you expecting from that nerf?
Isk flows far more from your null sec bots mining or rating in carriers/T3's than all high sec missioners put together so let me say: nerf carriers or T3's or null sec because of some assholes?
Stupid rabbits are really stupid
|
|
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:30:00 -
[181] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:StukaBee wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:Ya Huei wrote:They could always nerf those L4 Missions It's far more important that they nerf Incursions. Best to be on the safe side, nerf them both. Nerf what, how? What's the purpose of nerf those? What result are you expecting from that nerf? Isk flows far more from your null sec bots mining or rating in carriers/T3's than all high sec missioners put together so let me say: nerf carriers or T3's or null sec because of some assholes? Stupid rabbits are really stupid
"My nullsec bots?" "My ratting carriers?"
I take offense to your bold accusations; I exercise, nor approve of either.
The point and purpose of such a nerf would be to reduce the net flow of ISK into the game. A net reduction of ISK flow into the game economy is where it starts and ends. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:33:00 -
[182] - Quote
I posted a thread in test server feedback, but was told to move my results to this thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34567
Theoretically if we could all use our current setup to run anomalies we will be making more isk per hour after patch because Greyscale buffed ISK:EHP.
This is theoretically and completely IGNORES our ability to actually to do the anomaly.
I was going to write something up about it in my other thread but Charles Edisson beat me to it
This buff to anomalies is a theoretical buff that completely ignores the ability of your ship to be able to run the anomalies. In other words, this buff was implemented poorly.
Charles Edisson wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Take a better ship. Complaining that there are 'too many ships' is the most ******** thing I've ever heard of, given that it's the ships that bring the money. You're missing the point here, If you extrapolate the changes to an extreeme amount make an anom with 10,000BS and IF you manage to do it you get 10B isk. What do you think the outcome of this is going to be, especialy in regions where the rats neut out your cap. YOU WILL DIE, Take 10 friends with you, you still all die. Take 10 friends with you in the fanciest most pimped out ships in the game you still all die. isk from ratting is all about the rate at which you can kill the rats and the value of the rats. There is a tipping point between there not being enough NPCs to kill to make isk quickly and too many NPCs so that you cant kill them very quickly. He is saying that in atleast some Anomalies the changes on Sisi have pushed them over this tipping point.
How to fix: The anomalies that exist should be the same level of difficulty as they were before patch. The way to do this and increase ISK:EHP is to simply add more waves, and not increase the # of ships per wave.
TL:DR We cannot have our current killing power in the current anomalies so even though ISK:EHP ratio has been increased our ability to kill rats has decreased. We will make LESS ISK PER HOUR |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:45:00 -
[183] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:A game without risk for reward is bereft of value and devoid of entertainment that's worth more than a giggle.
I was talking about Risk v Reward in regards of Highsec vs. 0.0.
Evelgrivion wrote: Yes, CCP has to be careful, yes I know this won't drive anyone into 0.0 from highsec if high sec is the game they are looking to play; that is not the goal. The purpose of an income nerf is to make nullsec the most desirable place to live so the most competitive players have something to do, without resorting to even more, endless, inflation.
And you want to do it with buffing Highsec despite the fact, that most ISK are out of 0.0. Meaning, you destroy the water, so there are no more fires... ^^ DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
The Crimson Invaider
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:49:00 -
[184] - Quote
Dear CCP Greyscale,
I once openly stated I would shank you for basically turning the average dudes life in a 0.0 sov holding alliance into dirt farmers during the 1930's. This step forward would be very much welcome after your inbetween csm ninjaing of your nerf, which not only made upgrading a system with ihub ugrades useless, but also a gigantic waste of time/money and effort.
Please bear in mind when redressing the balance of risk/reward by the guys who sweat blood and tears taking space, that we spend a lot of time and money upgrading these systems, with little to no effect currently. Please bear this in mind while you are planning your balance of this feature and remember that the security status/rating/whatever of the system should be negated when a system is upgraded when it comes to anomaly spawn rate/amount.
|
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:59:00 -
[185] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:StukaBee wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:Ya Huei wrote:They could always nerf those L4 Missions It's far more important that they nerf Incursions. Best to be on the safe side, nerf them both. Nerf what, how? What's the purpose of nerf those? What result are you expecting from that nerf? Isk flows far more from your null sec bots mining or rating in carriers/T3's than all high sec missioners put together so let me say: nerf carriers or T3's or null sec because of some assholes? Stupid rabbits are really stupid "My nullsec bots?" "My ratting carriers?" I take offense to your bold accusations; I exercise, nor approve of either. The point and purpose of such a nerf would be to reduce the net flow of ISK into the game. A net reduction of ISK flow into the game economy is where it starts and ends.
You can take offence of whatever you want, no one playing this game now for at least one year will ever believe high sec is where isk flows.
Your opinion about high sec missioning and high sec isk flow is totally non sense. Every other argument you may add is null since the first one is the biggest lie you stated.
You want to reduce the isk flow in game?
Where it starts: -change how moon goo works, make it deplete, make it like PI, random respawn -take drone alloys out of the game -change how corporations/alliances finances work - it's their players that should be rich not the corporation it self
Where it ends.
Once this is done come back in one year and tell again high sec is where isk flows. You can argue whatever, no one playing the game for a while can seriously consider your statements.
|
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:08:00 -
[186] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote: -change how moon goo works, make it deplete, make it like PI, random respawn -take drone alloys out of the game -change how corporations/alliances finances work - it's their players that should be rich not the corporation it self
Gratz. You found those thing which is not making any isk at all :-) Any sort of Mining (inkl. Moongo) will not generate ISK in game.
the only ways to generate ISK are:
- Bounty - Mission Reward - Incursion Reward (at least those I'm aware of)
And the Ano-Bounty was the biggest source of ISK Generating.
And by the way:
we are not talking about ISK-Flow we are talking about ISK Generation.
for clarification: ISK Generation is the way to add isk to the EVE economy. (not: How I get more Isk) DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Malakai Draevyn
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:14:00 -
[187] - Quote
Here's a quick overview of what we've been doing in the Drone Regions for the last 7 months.
One carrier tanks the Drone Horde, 2 carriers to provide DPS, one Noctis to salvage - to kill and salvage everything takes approximately 14-17 minutes, and gains us approximately 23-28 million isk worth of alloys, plus a sentient drone (random spawn, may or may not drop anything of worth), plus the chance for an escalation (the bookmark for which can be sold)
Using the same assets, the same Drone Horde on Sisi just took us 37 minutes to complete, for the same amount of alloys, mainly due to the change in spawning pattern.
Bottom line - the Drone Regions just got hit with a 50-plus percent isk/hour nerf.
With the number of people in the DRF who are mainly doing these anomalies for isk generation, I can only see a situation where people will not be able to double the amount of time needed to maintain their accounts through PLEX, and thus accounts will be allowed to drop into a dormant state.
Less PLEX being bought for these accounts = Less rl cash hitting CCP's accounts.
Extrapolated figures from the situation as I can see it at the moment, I am looking at dropping 2 of my 4 accounts. If everyone else in the drone regions does the same, then this is approximately 2-3000 accounts which have the potential of being closed.
Well done. This has probably just cost CCP the sum of 25-35,000 USD a month.
If the intent is to 'make the drone regions more in line with how the other anomalies work' then quite frankly drop the alloys and give twice as many isk in the way of bounties.
Not Happy. |
Mograthi
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:16:00 -
[188] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Drone region anomalies weren't touched as part of this specific project - we're just balancing on bounty payout this time around and as drones don't have a bounty, we still don't have the tools to properly assess their worth.
Not exactly true there dude. The change to the bunker horde does amount to a Nerf for those of us in the drone regions.
Just some numbers from my personal experience,
When i am being slow and casual i can do 3 of the bunker hordes an hour and when I am in grind mode i can manage 4 an hour, many of my corp mates can do the same numbers. On an average we can earn 30 million per horde with the poo droppings, so we are averaging 90 - 120 mil an hour. With the change on SISI, we can on average do 2 of these an hour now for 60 mil an hour since the drops were not increased. This means that we are taking a 30% to 50% Nerf in income per hour whilst all the bounty rat regions are getting a buff in isk per hour.
Now I am fine with the change to the horde as it was kind of silly to begin with, but really you should modify the loot table at the same time to account for the change. Unlike many in the area I would be perfectly happy if you changed the drones to be bounty rats, my security status could use in an increase so I can use all those shiny new tier 3 BC's to gank miners with.
|
mkint
358
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:18:00 -
[189] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Have you considered, if I may, the possibility that distribution is one of the main problems in null? By grouping the best into pockets of null you encourage mega-alliances to control those specific pockets leaving surrounding areas much more devoid. It may be worth considering changing the sec stat of many systems to lower in order to smear the best systems across much larger areas of space... areas too large for the megas to claim all of without stretching themselves too thin. This would open even more space for smaller alliances to try and get a foothold in... space that would really be worth going for and not the sloppy seconds of the megas.
Just a thought. This is pretty much by design. There need to be incentives for powerful alliances to claim manageable chunks of space and settle down there, both because it acts as one motivation to fight, and because getting big powerful alliances to settle down somewhere rich is one of the main tools we have for giving them an expiry date (see: Deklein). On top of that, space that's really worth going for doesn't get generally get settled by new alliances, it gets settled by old alliances. It's only by creating areas of space that older richer alliances consider "worthless" that we can create places where new alliances can learn the ropes without getting stomped on. And how well has that worked out for ya?
The one REAL problem with null is that it is stagnant. It's stagnant by design. It looks like you're designing for people who benefit from stagnant. The only people who benefit from stagnant are RMTers. That alone makes EVE not worth playing, not for anyone. |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:22:00 -
[190] - Quote
mkint wrote: The only people who benefit from stagnant are RMTers. That alone makes EVE not worth playing, not for anyone.
With the current PLEX-Prices thery aren't happy at all.
Coincidence? DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
|
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
230
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:31:00 -
[191] - Quote
S8nt wrote:[CCP Greyscale,
With regards to ISK coming in and out it might be constant. But could you please tell me why mineral prices have fallen so much since 2008. Mega if I am correct was at around 3400 a unit and Zid was at 2600 a unit. Those two minerals now in Jita is at around 2700 for Mega and 775 for Zydrine. How has that stayed constant since 2008? How does ratting compare to mining?
Could you please comment.
S8nt
I don't have any info on that to hand, sorry. I can speculate with the best of them, but I don't have anything concrete and the speculation is all pretty obvious stuff anyway.
Arkady Sadik wrote:I can see how that might be difficult, as their worth depends on market price. But I think it would be really useful to do that, as some NPCs have subjectively quite different value due to salvage (Serpentis vs. Angels, say). You should be able to get "average market price" for minerals, drops and salvage quite easily, so that measure would not be too difficult to implement (I think :-)).
It might also be interesting to start measuring "average completion time" for anomalies. This will give you a better measure than EHP, and even more importantly, it will point out which NPCs are disproportionally "more difficult" than others - either increasing their payout slightly, or being a point of reference for game balancing.
(NB: It's not entirely bad to have "differently-difficult" NPCs in general, as that is another factor for making space "worth more" or "worth less", but it'd be good to have that in sight for game balance)
The tricky bit once we start factoring market price stuff is that market prices change over time, so the assumptions we make right now won't necessarily hold true in future, whereas isk is isk. It is something we want to look into extending our tools into, but it becomes a much fuzzier area of balance.
And yes, getting better metrics on things like completion times is high up on our to-log list :)
|
|
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
230
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:34:00 -
[192] - Quote
Mograthi wrote: Not exactly true there dude. The change to the bunker horde does amount to a Nerf for those of us in the drone regions.
Just some numbers from my personal experience,
When i am being slow and casual i can do 3 of the bunker hordes an hour and when I am in grind mode i can manage 4 an hour, many of my corp mates can do the same numbers. On an average we can earn 30 million per horde with the poo droppings, so we are averaging 90 - 120 mil an hour. With the change on SISI, we can on average do 2 of these an hour now for 60 mil an hour since the drops were not increased. This means that we are taking a 30% to 50% Nerf in income per hour whilst all the bounty rat regions are getting a buff in isk per hour.
Now I am fine with the change to the horde as it was kind of silly to begin with, but really you should modify the loot table at the same time to account for the change. Unlike many in the area I would be perfectly happy if you changed the drones to be bounty rats, my security status could use in an increase so I can use all those shiny new tier 3 BC's to gank miners with.
This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course).
RaZor Flash wrote:I posted a thread in test server feedback, but was told to move my results to this thread. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34567Theoretically if we could all use our current setup to run anomalies we will be making more isk per hour after patch because Greyscale buffed ISK:EHP. This is theoretically and completely IGNORES our ability to actually to do the anomaly. I was going to write something up about it in my other thread but Charles Edisson beat me to it This buff to anomalies is a theoretical buff that completely ignores the ability of your ship to be able to run the anomalies. In other words, this buff was implemented poorly.
Charles Edisson wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Take a better ship. Complaining that there are 'too many ships' is the most ******** thing I've ever heard of, given that it's the ships that bring the money. You're missing the point here, If you extrapolate the changes to an extreeme amount make an anom with 10,000BS and IF you manage to do it you get 10B isk. What do you think the outcome of this is going to be, especialy in regions where the rats neut out your cap. YOU WILL DIE, Take 10 friends with you, you still all die. Take 10 friends with you in the fanciest most pimped out ships in the game you still all die. isk from ratting is all about the rate at which you can kill the rats and the value of the rats. There is a tipping point between there not being enough NPCs to kill to make isk quickly and too many NPCs so that you cant kill them very quickly. He is saying that in atleast some Anomalies the changes on Sisi have pushed them over this tipping point. How to fix: The anomalies that exist should be the same level of difficulty as they were before patch. The way to do this and increase ISK:EHP is to simply add more waves, and not increase the # of ships per wave. TL:DR We cannot have our current killing power in the current anomalies so even though ISK:EHP ratio has been increased our ability to kill rats has decreased. We will make LESS ISK PER HOUREdit: This is all assuming the point of this is to make getting isk in 0.0 better, if its not, then I might as well create an incursion alt that I can play to fund my desire to be part of an alliance in 0.0, shortly after doing this I might as well quit the game. Edit 2: I have run a lot of different anomalies and It appears that you front loaded all the battleships and hacs into the initial spawns instead of dividing them equally among the spawns. In other words, I would probably shut up if you just fixed the initial spawn and trigger for the next waves. Anomalies should get harder as you progress not easier /boggle.
I asked people to stick to the feedback thread in no small part because I'd already responded to your earlier post here requesting specific examples so I could better understand the problem :)
Yes, theoretically if we put 10,000 battleships in a site it would be uncompleteable, but we haven't done that. If you can tell us what actual sites you've tested with what actual setups and ships, then we can look into it further. For example, when you're talking about adding ships to the first wave, there's only a limited number of dungeons that was done to - in most cases we did simple substitution so this problem won't manifest, and I'm guessing this isn't a problem for the lower-end sites because they shouldn't be that difficult even with these changes, so it's probably one or two specific dungeons that we can potentially troubleshoot rather than a universal problem.
(The reason waves are added to the beginning of rooms is mainly because it makes the changes easier and therefore faster to do and less likely to break, but it's also I think true that your PvP risk increases as your time in the site increases, so frontloading the PvE danger seems safer overall. In any case, it's not like anyone's consistently running sites that have a reasonable chance of killing them anyway, so while I agree in principle and in isolation an escalating difficulty makes sense, in practice we believe it has minimal impact on the actual play experience.) |
|
Malakai Draevyn
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:42:00 -
[193] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course).
Giving the bunkers 5-10x more HP would have probably fixed the 'one shot pop / no spawn' issue, surely ? |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
131
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:53:00 -
[194] - Quote
I'd like to see less ISK pinatas, and other solutions for ISK Faucet in Null Sec! :P
As long as we're improving ISK pinatas can we get a special effect where green and glittery dollar bills fly out of the NPC spaceships and leave a glitter trail as they float towards your ship auto-magically to represent the money being made?
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:57:00 -
[195] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Jojo Yohan wrote:What about the nerf to the Drone Horde anomaly that is currently on Sisi. It appears that you're cutting down the ISK/hour by at least a factor of 2 on that one. Drone Horde was a separate issue - those sites were breaking completely if you one-shotted the bunkers. It was also never intended that you could speed up the completion rate by spawning all the NPCs at once, so that was corrected as part of the bugfix. This site should now be more in line with other comparable anomalies and with the original design intent. And to think I'd do that to folks running the things just to be a ****. |
Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:05:00 -
[196] - Quote
RaZor Flash wrote: This is theoretically and completely IGNORES our ability to actually to do the anomaly.
My alliance has run the new anoms on Sisi. The same tanked ships I use on Tranq work just fine. Hell, if you're flying Gallente, your blasters will chew through them even faster.
You really should try Sisi. It's where you can find out the answers instead of posting here and wasting your time. That's what it's there for. |
Mograthi
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:06:00 -
[197] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course).
I will buy that it is a bug fix occurring at an unfortunate time.
This doesn't resolve the perception that you are nerfing or ignoring the drone anomalies at the same time you buff the bounty rat anomalies. I realize that it is harder to balance the drone ones in line with the bounty ones due to the fact that the reward is reliant on the market price of minerals and poo but i would hope that some attempt is made before deployment.
|
Avila Cracko
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:14:00 -
[198] - Quote
Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes... |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:22:00 -
[199] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:... Louis deGuerre wrote:I find it hard to get an idea about the impact of this, but I am glad something has been done.
What I would really like to see is dynamic distribution of anomalies according to space usage. Too much killing in one system, less sites, abandoned systems, more sites. This would do wonders for 0.0, force players to move around (thinking of botting here too !), more kills on gates, it would solve so many problems...
Peace
The problem with this sort of approach is that it pushes people away from settling down and towards a more hunter-gatherer lifestyle, which isn't currently the direction we want nullsec to be generally moving in. ... What direction is that? With potentially three changes to the anomaly system w/in the course of a year, entities looking to make new strategic investments will think twice about developing systems that may or may not be worth using (or renting) in a short while.
Also, how does CCP define "hunter-gatherer?" I am genuinely curious in the context of EVE game-play.
My definition of hunter-gatherer in the context of practical, hands-on EVE game-play is this:
Base out of 1 - 2 systems in a particular region or constellation, exploring, ratting and sometimes even PvP'ing across that constellation and nearby constellations / regions. In this space, I will hunt down rats (and players), gathering the spoils of my activities to be used back in the central staging system(s) or exported elsewhere. In some cases, this behavior might allow me to take advantage of high-value system upgrades for anomalies and exploration. In some cases, not.
The aforementioned behaviors are also exhibited by many of my alliance mates, most of whom you might consider to be "settled down" and tied to one area in the game.
Also, the more fluid example of PvE provided by Louis deGuerre above is actually how null-sec PvE activities work. Even the best systems get over populated or exploration sites get gobbled up post-DT and people range out to hunt down and gather resources.
Spend some time in Null-Sec or talking to null-sec residents. You will have a better idea of how the EVE game works and how players exist w/in the EVE frame-work. And as demeaning as that sounds, your written communication still paints you as having a very limited idea of how your customers behave in your product. Perhaps a video blog might help you communicate better? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
mkint
359
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:28:00 -
[200] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes... Mineral faucets have been DECREASED over the past year. You're missing the other side of the equation. Sinks.
There's nothing in EVE worth fighting over, so people are not fighting, so minerals are not being destroyed, so supply is outpacing demand, so prices are dropping. |
|
Mrs Troutslayer
Internet Spaceship Gamers Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:28:00 -
[201] - Quote
Mograthi wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course).
I will buy that it is a bug fix occurring at an unfortunate time. This doesn't resolve the perception that you are nerfing or ignoring the drone anomalies at the same time you buff the bounty rat anomalies. I realize that it is harder to balance the drone ones in line with the bounty ones due to the fact that the reward is reliant on the market price of minerals and poo but i would hope that some attempt is made before deployment.
If I had not read tread this particular thread I wold not have know about this "bugfix". It really should be in a Devblog or somewhere it can be seen. That is if you really want know what the reception to this change will be. Or was it gonna just get buried in the patch notes somewhere. The backlash from a large portion of the community (anyone living in drone space) will be huge. So far the rabble has been contained to this one thread but there will be no hiding it on patch day. Better to take your lumps now if your going through with this change to Horde spawn mechanic.... It seems like such a small tweak on paper, but the income change to individual players will be huge. |
Avila Cracko
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:36:00 -
[202] - Quote
mkint wrote:Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes... Mineral faucets have been DECREASED over the past year. You're missing the other side of the equation. Sinks. There's nothing in EVE worth fighting over, so people are not fighting, so minerals are not being destroyed, so supply is outpacing demand, so prices are dropping.
These days ppl everything calling "DECREASE"... Yea... when you lower the price of apartment from 300.000Gé¼ to 299.999Gé¼ its still DECREASE in price... |
Grim Savage
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:41:00 -
[203] - Quote
Mograthi wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Drone region anomalies weren't touched as part of this specific project - we're just balancing on bounty payout this time around and as drones don't have a bounty, we still don't have the tools to properly assess their worth.
Not exactly true there dude. The change to the bunker horde does amount to a Nerf for those of us in the drone regions. Just some numbers from my personal experience, When i am being slow and casual i can do 3 of the bunker hordes an hour and when I am in grind mode i can manage 4 an hour, many of my corp mates can do the same numbers. On an average we can earn 30 million per horde with the poo droppings, so we are averaging 90 - 120 mil an hour. With the change on SISI, we can on average do 2 of these an hour now for 60 mil an hour since the drops were not increased. This means that we are taking a 30% to 50% Nerf in income per hour whilst all the bounty rat regions are getting a buff in isk per hour. Now I am fine with the change to the horde as it was kind of silly to begin with, but really you should modify the loot table at the same time to account for the change. Unlike many in the area I would be perfectly happy if you changed the drones to be bounty rats, my security status could use in an increase so I can use all those shiny new tier 3 BC's to gank miners with.
If you make 90mill an hour doing anomalies, and it is nerfed to 60, then I would say they did not swing the nerf bat hard enough.
This thing should be nerfed to get in line with regular sanctums. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:48:00 -
[204] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I asked people to stick to the feedback thread in no small part because I'd already responded to your earlier post here requesting specific examples so I could better understand the problem :)
Yes, theoretically if we put 10,000 battleships in a site it would be uncompleteable, but we haven't done that. If you can tell us what actual sites you've tested with what actual setups and ships, then we can look into it further. For example, when you're talking about adding ships to the first wave, there's only a limited number of dungeons that was done to - in most cases we did simple substitution so this problem won't manifest, and I'm guessing this isn't a problem for the lower-end sites because they shouldn't be that difficult even with these changes, so it's probably one or two specific dungeons that we can potentially troubleshoot rather than a universal problem.
(The reason waves are added to the beginning of rooms is mainly because it makes the changes easier and therefore faster to do and less likely to break, but it's also I think true that your PvP risk increases as your time in the site increases, so frontloading the PvE danger seems safer overall. In any case, it's not like anyone's consistently running sites that have a reasonable chance of killing them anyway, so while I agree in principle and in isolation an escalating difficulty makes sense, in practice we believe it has minimal impact on the actual play experience.)
Ahh I checked the dev posts, and I didnt' see it, so my fault on that. I also wasn't sure where to post my feedback thus my petition to ask a GM. (They directed me to test server feedback). This was a threadnaught of congrats without actual testing. I have been testing on sisi and running different anoms.
Okay, so Ill give the spoilers to my money making scheme since its clearly going to be changed.
I run an abaddon with triple faction heat sink doing blood raider forsaken hubs all day. I can chain them and earn great isk/hour. Providing of course that someone doesn't break them, I have low competition for them, and goons are not cloaky camping my system. 29-30 mil cycles every 20 minutes not including faction spawns (if i put my a-game on). I have enough isk that I do them leisurely for 27ish. The dead space escalations are a total waste of time because the effort to do them and the traveling is simply not worth the time even assuming you get a 900 mil + reward.
The only setup better is a navy geddon, with tech 2 sentries, that earns 31-32.
I figured how to put as much gank and least tank on my battleship to survive the anomalies. I have to kill the ships fast or else they will break my tank, but I kill them so quickly due to a couple of 20 mil implants and faction heatsinks my tank can hold out.
With the changes, it is simply not possible for me to tank these anymore without suffering a massive damage loss.
If you leave these the changes in I will simply change to a "weaker" anomaly where I essentially can do the same thing to a lesser degree, I will have to buy a couple deadspace mods. ISK:EHP is only one factor, the DPS of your ship is another.
I already tested my new anomaly to chain and with a couple of changes I should be able to solo it. This will simply mean that systems with a true sec of .4-.5 will be pretty awesome.
Maybe you didn't intend for player to make this much isk/hour in a solo ship. This is only able to be done since May 19th 2011 when you made a changes to the scanner (Awesome change btw).
|
Mrs Troutslayer
Internet Spaceship Gamers Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:29:00 -
[205] - Quote
[/quote]
If you make 90mill an hour doing anomalies, and it is nerfed to 60, then I would say they did not swing the nerf bat hard enough.
This thing should be nerfed to get in line with regular sanctums.[/quote]
But these really should pay more per hour than regular sanctums if you want it it to be fair and equal. Figure in the time moving the alloys to market or building stuff / updating market orders of said stuff and that raw isk / hour number goes way down. Regular sanctums give you instant isk, you don't even have to have a salvage partner of go back and salvage yourself. Just kill rats, 20 minutes later you have isk in your wallet. Unless you've lived in drone space you can't fully appreciate the logistics of "making isk" in drone space. Sure individuals with a good logistical backbone may find it easy if there are buy orders up for alloys, but someone is putting in the time to do something with all that drone poo to convert it to isk.
|
BigCountry
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:36:00 -
[206] - Quote
Ok Greyscale I hate to do it , cuz it might not be your fault but I gotta call "BS" ... If this was some bugfix taht has been needed then why back a year ago when you moved the warp-in point from being on top of bunkers to 30km away , why didnt you make this change then ??? This is nothing but a slap in the face to those that live in the drone regions ... not all of us are botters ... alot of us just like the relaxed renting atmosphere from the russians...
And maybe you could make 120mil an hour doing the hordes, but that isnt accurate... cuz that does not figure in the time it takes to move this stuff around to sell it ...
So again regardless of intent.... the drone regions just got nerfed hardcore... plus ,didnt greyscale say that the most profitable anomalies were the sanctums ? How much do each of those bring in??
So to stay on topic--- CCP when you revisited the drone hordes - you killed them.. |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:44:00 -
[207] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Magic Crisp wrote:My issue with the current distrubution is, that the systems have usually 1 or 2 anoms worth running, and the rest are highsec trash. After upgrading to lvl4-5, you can have forlorn hubs, which are starting to be decent, and the havens/sanctums are waaaay better than any other sites. Is that possible that every 00 system gets less of the highsec trash anoms, we we actually get a somewhat better sites? If a system is above -0.2 it needs like lvl5 upgrade to get a single forlorn hub, which will be the only sites worths running. The rest are wasted time. The sites distributed seems like a "lots of unworthy trash + 1 worthy" site, though it can be up to 3-4 sites worth running in systems below -0.8. So we have like 20 anoms, people are running 1 to 3 out of them. Forsaken Rally Point comes in about 5% worse than Forlorn Hub in the new system, and Hidden Rally Point and one of the Hub sites are probably down 10%. (Forlorn Hub is now on par with the two Haven sites, for reference)
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say here. Could you give a proper breakdown of the changes to the sites, with reference to the current system. I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:59:00 -
[208] - Quote
hey drone region dudes
welcome to the isk/hour of the rest of eve, nobody feels sorry for you |
Temmu Guerra
Sickle Moon Intrepid Crossing
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:01:00 -
[209] - Quote
Can drones just get isk bounties. When I was out in Omist (angel space) i would still salvage all the wrecks as that was extra isk i did not want to let to go to waste but my move out to the drone regions I now HAVE to salvage in order to make isk. I chain hordes with 2 carriers + a noctis and it can take me about 15 to 20 mins to clear the horde + salvage it on my 3 accounts. With 2 carriers in omist I could make about 45 mill with bounties (compared to the 29 to 30 that ppl have referred to for the hordes) and that was WITHOUT salvaging. With the lack of salvaging I could chain them faster and therefore increase my isk per hour ratio as I was able to complete more within that hour.
So in short Greyscale either change the way the horde spawns or atleast give us bounties. Give us something that is reasonable so we can make isk. All I want to do is buy ships to blow up in pvp ;)
And no I am not a russian botter |
Mograthi
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:02:00 -
[210] - Quote
Grim Savage wrote:If you make 90mill an hour doing anomalies, and it is nerfed to 60, then I would say they did not swing the nerf bat hard enough.
This thing should be nerfed to get in line with regular sanctums.
Thing is when I lived in fountain I could make the same 90 mil an hour running sanctums (1 ring sanctum finished every tick = 30 * 3 for 90 mil in bounties per hour), so they already were in line with sanctums. Now the sanctums are going to be buffed so more isk in bounties is made. If you cant make 90 mil an hour currently in sanctums you are doing something horribly wrong. |
|
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:06:00 -
[211] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes...
Fully supported...
Signed. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:09:00 -
[212] - Quote
isk/hour... bleh. no one enjoys grinding. on top of that, this looks like it will best server the bot industry.
more zombies bs's/bc's simply = more boredom
please add a new ccp dev position: the fun dev. threads like this highlight how sorely a position like that is needed. |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:45:00 -
[213] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:You can take offence of whatever you want, no one playing this game now for at least one year will ever believe high sec is where isk flows.
Your opinion about high sec missioning and high sec isk flow is totally non sense. Every other argument you may add is null since the first one is the biggest lie you stated.
You want to reduce the isk flow in game?
Where it starts: -change how moon goo works, make it deplete, make it like PI, random respawn -take drone alloys out of the game -change how corporations/alliances finances work - it's their players that should be rich not the corporation it self
Where it ends.
Once this is done come back in one year and tell again high sec is where isk flows. You can argue whatever, no one playing the game for a while can seriously consider your statements.
Congratulations; the point went 100% over your head.
This is about ISK and the creation thereof. Moons and alloys do not create ISK. |
S8nt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:16:00 -
[214] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:You can take offence of whatever you want, no one playing this game now for at least one year will ever believe high sec is where isk flows.
Your opinion about high sec missioning and high sec isk flow is totally non sense. Every other argument you may add is null since the first one is the biggest lie you stated.
You want to reduce the isk flow in game?
Where it starts: -change how moon goo works, make it deplete, make it like PI, random respawn -take drone alloys out of the game -change how corporations/alliances finances work - it's their players that should be rich not the corporation it self
Where it ends.
Once this is done come back in one year and tell again high sec is where isk flows. You can argue whatever, no one playing the game for a while can seriously consider your statements. Congratulations; the point went 100% over your head. This is about ISK and the creation thereof. Moons and alloys do not create ISK.
Well, now that the fuel is easier for towers, this does become a possibility. The balance in this game tbh is totally fscked and CCP doesn't seem to see it. Between 3 of us we have suspended 52 accounts cause mining is so crap. I am coasting on one account in the hope that CCP wakes up and see what is happening to mining and money in this game. |
Riovane
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:25:00 -
[215] - Quote
i'm not a forum person put i will say this, Not everyone in EVE runs Anoms in carriers the initial "buff" of battleships in forsaken hubs is insane. I second to motion of increasing the amount of waves of ships vs that monster of an initial spawn. |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:48:00 -
[216] - Quote
S8nt wrote:Well, now that the fuel is easier for towers, this does become a possibility.
Huh?
S8nt wrote:The balance in this game tbh is totally fscked and CCP doesn't seem to see it. Between 3 of us we have suspended 52 accounts cause mining is so crap. I am coasting on one account in the hope that CCP wakes up and see what is happening to mining and money in this game.
The rest of this I generally agree with. Alloys have been an unqualified disaster for the health of the game, making mining far less meaningful while serving as one of, if not the chief enabler of today's situation of super capital proliferation. The drone regions should be thrown out and redone.
On a directly related tangent, this is also why I want to see refining time introduced as a mechanic. If refining is no longer a free action, material processing becomes an industry unto itself and new balancing mechanics can be enabled through this mechanism that can stop both mineral compression and alloy superiority while giving an edge to ores and the compressed versions thereof. |
Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:53:00 -
[217] - Quote
StukaBee wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;) The moral of this story is to never stop posting.
I would say that the moral is "one well thought and argued posts get more than a hundred angry posts". Pushing a good developer into not reading the forum because there are too many angry posts instead of useful posts isn't something I would be proud of.
Edit: spelling |
S8nt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:57:00 -
[218] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:[quote=S8nt]Well, now that the fuel is easier for towers, this does become a possibility.
Huh?
^^ reffering to the POS fuel being easier to manage. So making Moon minerals deplete is a option. |
Aylanaa
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:57:00 -
[219] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Mograthi wrote: Not exactly true there dude. The change to the bunker horde does amount to a Nerf for those of us in the drone regions.
Just some numbers from my personal experience,
When i am being slow and casual i can do 3 of the bunker hordes an hour and when I am in grind mode i can manage 4 an hour, many of my corp mates can do the same numbers. On an average we can earn 30 million per horde with the poo droppings, so we are averaging 90 - 120 mil an hour. With the change on SISI, we can on average do 2 of these an hour now for 60 mil an hour since the drops were not increased. This means that we are taking a 30% to 50% Nerf in income per hour whilst all the bounty rat regions are getting a buff in isk per hour.
Now I am fine with the change to the horde as it was kind of silly to begin with, but really you should modify the loot table at the same time to account for the change. Unlike many in the area I would be perfectly happy if you changed the drones to be bounty rats, my security status could use in an increase so I can use all those shiny new tier 3 BC's to gank miners with.
This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course). RaZor Flash wrote:I posted a thread in test server feedback, but was told to move my results to this thread. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34567Theoretically if we could all use our current setup to run anomalies we will be making more isk per hour after patch because Greyscale buffed ISK:EHP. This is theoretically and completely IGNORES our ability to actually to do the anomaly. I was going to write something up about it in my other thread but Charles Edisson beat me to it This buff to anomalies is a theoretical buff that completely ignores the ability of your ship to be able to run the anomalies. In other words, this buff was implemented poorly.
Charles Edisson wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Take a better ship. Complaining that there are 'too many ships' is the most ******** thing I've ever heard of, given that it's the ships that bring the money. You're missing the point here, If you extrapolate the changes to an extreeme amount make an anom with 10,000BS and IF you manage to do it you get 10B isk. What do you think the outcome of this is going to be, especialy in regions where the rats neut out your cap. YOU WILL DIE, Take 10 friends with you, you still all die. Take 10 friends with you in the fanciest most pimped out ships in the game you still all die. isk from ratting is all about the rate at which you can kill the rats and the value of the rats. There is a tipping point between there not being enough NPCs to kill to make isk quickly and too many NPCs so that you cant kill them very quickly. He is saying that in atleast some Anomalies the changes on Sisi have pushed them over this tipping point. How to fix: The anomalies that exist should be the same level of difficulty as they were before patch. The way to do this and increase ISK:EHP is to simply add more waves, and not increase the # of ships per wave. TL:DR We cannot have our current killing power in the current anomalies so even though ISK:EHP ratio has been increased our ability to kill rats has decreased. We will make LESS ISK PER HOUREdit: This is all assuming the point of this is to make getting isk in 0.0 better, if its not, then I might as well create an incursion alt that I can play to fund my desire to be part of an alliance in 0.0, shortly after doing this I might as well quit the game. Edit 2: I have run a lot of different anomalies and It appears that you front loaded all the battleships and hacs into the initial spawns instead of dividing them equally among the spawns. In other words, I would probably shut up if you just fixed the initial spawn and trigger for the next waves. Anomalies should get harder as you progress not easier /boggle. I asked people to stick to the feedback thread in no small part because I'd already responded to your earlier post here requesting specific examples so I could better understand the problem :) Yes, theoretically if we put 10,000 battleships in a site it would be uncompleteable, but we haven't done that. If you can tell us what actual sites you've tested with what actual setups and ships, then we can look into it further. For example, when you're talking about adding ships to the first wave, there's only a limited number of dungeons that was done to - in most cases we did simple substitution so this problem won't manifest, and I'm guessing this isn't a problem for the lower-end sites because they shouldn't be that difficult even with these changes, so it's probably one or two specific dungeons that we can potentially troubleshoot rather than a universal problem. (The reason waves are added to the beginning of rooms is mainly because it makes the changes easier and therefore faster to do and less likely to break, but it's also I think true that your PvP risk increases as your time in the site increases, so frontloading the PvE danger seems safer overall. In any case, it's not like anyone's consistently running sites that have a reasonable chance of killing them anyway, so while I agree in principle and in isolation an escalating difficulty makes sense, in practice we believe it has minimal impact on the actual play experience.)
**** you and your game
|
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
92
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 22:06:00 -
[220] - Quote
Aylanaa wrote:**** you and your game
This is all I have to say about that. |
|
Aylanaa
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 22:21:00 -
[221] - Quote
three cancelled accounts so yea i did deal with it
|
Melkie
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 23:27:00 -
[222] - Quote
If you make 90mill an hour doing anomalies, and it is nerfed to 60, then I would say they did not swing the nerf bat hard enough.
This thing should be nerfed to get in line with regular sanctums.[/quote]
But these really should pay more per hour than regular sanctums if you want it it to be fair and equal. Figure in the time moving the alloys to market or building stuff / updating market orders of said stuff and that raw isk / hour number goes way down. Regular sanctums give you instant isk, you don't even have to have a salvage partner of go back and salvage yourself. Just kill rats, 20 minutes later you have isk in your wallet. Unless you've lived in drone space you can't fully appreciate the logistics of "making isk" in drone space. Sure individuals with a good logistical backbone may find it easy if there are buy orders up for alloys, but someone is putting in the time to do something with all that drone poo to convert it to isk. [/quote] I agree, people who run drone anoms should make more because of the logistical nightmare it is to get the goo to High Sec. Now it will be less than a regular one? That makes a load of sense. . . |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 23:27:00 -
[223] - Quote
S8nt wrote:Hi,
With the calculations now done with these Anomalies, could you please now go work out the following:
- ISK per hour for mining in belts in say angel space where there is a crapload of ABC's - ISK per hour mining in say Tribute where there is no ABC's - ISK per hour mining in system upgraded Grav sites at say a resonable level 3 or 4?
Please CCP, if there is one thing you do this expansion, please fix mining so that it doesn't have to be bot run to make a semi decent income.
S8nt
Impossible as long as bots doing our mining stuff income will always suck here, because bots can do it always cheaper than you. So forget mining as game content simply until it gets a whole rework on it.
And I still think that making out of mining a guitar hero style rhythm game would be the best solution ;-)
RaZor Flash wrote:
All CCP did was add more ships (BS and BCs to pump up the ISK:EHP ratio) to the anomalies, effectively making them harder to run, so you can't solo them as easily as you could.
The bounties on the ships have not changed, at all.
I have tried a few serpentis heavens with angle tank fitted, and emp ammo ... still work out fine, even when I have to admit I had to speed tank which cost me damage. And I have to admit furthermore that the anomaly still was not worth it. LP are simply more worth than bounties or faction drops on average. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 23:30:00 -
[224] - Quote
Melkie wrote: I agree, people who run drone anoms should make more because of the logistical nightmare it is to get the goo to High Sec. Now it will be less than a regular one? That makes a load of sense. . .
There is a single rule in eve. If something else is more worth than something else, than by all means don-¦t do the one that gives you less isk. In most cases prices will adapt, though I have to admit no by much in the case of drone poo, because mineral prices are not player but bot related. |
Elsa Nietchize
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 03:57:00 -
[225] - Quote
I hope Hilmar is reading this thread and he holds Greyscale accountable for these changes. Greyscale has already ruined the game once. If there's another exodus, maybe he'll be fired, or atleast reassigned. Nothing gets fixed without metrics and accountability.
edit: HTFU Hilmar |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 05:05:00 -
[226] - Quote
the only exodus this game change will cause will be of python injected bots supplying drone poo to sell for isk which is then RMT'd. some of those bots may change to L4 missions instead.
everyone else will realize they're still making better isk/hour than most players out there and go on with doing things like pew pew and training neat skills and buying fancy ships since crucible is gonna be awesome
death2allbots |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
212
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 05:23:00 -
[227] - Quote
I'm really disappointed by the lack of feedback, the lack of people understanding what's going on here, and the many blind reactionary statements in this thread. Hopefully I can turn it around.
Tonight I decided to put the anomaly changes to the test. I cheaply put together an average, T2 fit ishkur (speed tanked, and decent DPS) and sloppily went through a low-valued anomaly in lowsec. The only site in the system was a Sansha's Rally Point, which is a middle of the road lowsec site, and the lowest value that spawns in null. I chose the Ishkur because it is speed/sig tanked (although I had a shield booster just in case), has a decent amount of dps at range because of drones, and because it is not too expensive.
~40 minutes later (could have been about 25-30 minimum if I was paying more attention, I think) I was the proud new owner of ~4 million isk.
If I could churn through 2-3 low leveled anomalies in lowsec in a cheap assault frigate in an hour, I could make about 1/4th of the amount anyone could make safely doing missions in highsec (10m/hr best case vs 40m/hr). If I ran anomalies for about 3 hours, I could replace the loss of my ship.
I applaud your attempt, but your changes are not drastic enough on the low end at least, and it won't be enough to get people out of missions in highsec. The lowend is what needs to be addressed to make terrible space (bad 0.0, hell even lowsec!) worthwhile.
Evidence of my crimes: http://i.imgur.com/iQcm9.jpg Yes, I am a total scrub, but so is the average EVE player. |
mkint
362
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 05:48:00 -
[228] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:mkint wrote:Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes... Mineral faucets have been DECREASED over the past year. You're missing the other side of the equation. Sinks. There's nothing in EVE worth fighting over, so people are not fighting, so minerals are not being destroyed, so supply is outpacing demand, so prices are dropping. These days ppl everything calling "DECREASE"... Yea... when you lower the price of apartment from 300.000Gé¼ to 299.999Gé¼ its still DECREASE in price... My point is that players decide mineral prices. Players themselves are the mineral faucets and sinks. Mining is easy so it will always pay crap. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 08:20:00 -
[229] - Quote
mkint wrote: Mining is easy to bot so it will always pay crap.
fixed. And a fix on mining would make it somehow not as easy to bot as it is now. Most likely this would increase the fun as well. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 08:43:00 -
[230] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: The data I have in front of me suggest that - excluding PLEX - inflation has been relatively stable since mid 2008. We generally see increased volatility around expansions, but our CPI today is about the same as it was circa Q2 2008. We do need to do more work to balance out our ISK flows, but we also need people to be playing our game, and specifically we need people to be running anomalies if we want nullsec to be a healthy area of the game.
I'm a little confused by this when it appears to contradict directly statements put out in the past. Eg. the last QEN (Q4 2010, released prior to incursions) has:
Q4 2010 QEN wrote: EVE Central Bank has been monitoring the money supply closely and is becoming increasingly concerned about the rate of growth in the total money supply and the subsequent risk of inflation increase (see next section). The bank has therefore proposed that in 2011 there should be a focus on increasing ISK sinks in order to curb potential inflation.
The price indices put out (near) monthly also would appear to suggest significant year on year inflation with the latest September 2011 indices showing:
Mineral Price Index (12mth change): 19.5 percent Primary Producer Price Index (12mth change): 24.5 percent Secondary Producer Price Index (12mth change): 8.1 percent Consumer Price Index (12mth change): 7.6 percent
(the Consumer Price Index I understand to include PLEX so feel free to disregard that one)
It is eminently possible (nay, likely) that I am reading all this wrong; I'd appreciate any pointers as to how I'm misinterpreting what appear to be contradictory statement and data. |
|
Severian Carnifex
70
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 12:49:00 -
[231] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes...
Soooo signed... This person knows THE PROBLEM... |
Asyrdin Harate
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 13:12:00 -
[232] - Quote
from what i saw on test server:
1st spawn of anoms is too hard and out of proportion with the rest of the anom.
|
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
43
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 19:07:00 -
[233] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The tricky bit once we start factoring market price stuff is that market prices change over time, so the assumptions we make right now won't necessarily hold true in future, whereas isk is isk. It is something we want to look into extending our tools into, but it becomes a much fuzzier area of balance.
And yes, getting better metrics on things like completion times is high up on our to-log list :)
not to be an ass but, you wont have this issues if you guys would continue to iterate and tweak the game every patch or put in mechanics that don't rely on the market or the silly idea of fairness =P
Good job so far CCP Greyscale, keep up the work! Also, keep those answer posts coming! We only beat the crap out of you with our comments because we care! ^_^
Asyrdin Harate wrote:from what i saw on test server:
1st spawn of anoms is too hard and out of proportion with the rest of the anom.
We need a name of the anom you found this at! |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 22:02:00 -
[234] - Quote
Zendoren wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
The tricky bit once we start factoring market price stuff is that market prices change over time, so the assumptions we make right now won't necessarily hold true in future, whereas isk is isk. It is something we want to look into extending our tools into, but it becomes a much fuzzier area of balance.
And yes, getting better metrics on things like completion times is high up on our to-log list :)
not to be an ass but, you wont have this issues if you guys would continue to iterate and tweak the game every patch or put in mechanics that don't rely on the market or the silly idea of fairness =P Good job so far CCP Greyscale, keep up the work! Also, keep those answer posts coming! We only beat the crap out of you with our comments because we care! ^_^ Asyrdin Harate wrote:from what i saw on test server:
1st spawn of anoms is too hard and out of proportion with the rest of the anom.
We need a name of the anom you found this at!
The anomaly he is referring to is the forsaken hubs. The initial wave is significantly harder.
I guess CCP thinks that everyone just rats in a carrier and doesn't need to care about tank.
I tried with a bunch of b-type mods but 7 popes and 7 bcs is simply too much damage. |
Asyrdin Harate
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 01:10:00 -
[235] - Quote
i was referring to forsaken hubs in this case yes, but i noticed that lower end anomalies also spawn 6ish BS with equal amount of BC excluding any additional triggers.
i believe the max number a t2 fitted abaddon can tank with perfect skills is about 5 without getting in serious trouble or sacrificing significant amounts of DPS for tank.
In my case i can manage quite well even with things being this hard but imagine a low skill char with like 40M sp and some industrial training ...will be impossible to just any anoms anymore |
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 08:51:00 -
[236] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course).
Malakai wrote: Giving the bunkers 5-10x more HP would have probably fixed the 'one shot pop / no spawn' issue, surely ?
Wait, so the bug was "one shot no spawn" so rather than fix the actual bug, or put in a work around (like more HP), you removed it all together?
This is a horrible way to "fix" an issue, especially at such an "unfortunate" time. All the Anoms get a buff to line up more closely with what drone anoms make, and then drone anoms get what is effectively a nerf (for reasons others have explained already). That's no so much unfortunate, as it is ******* the drone residents, who already have to have a salvage follow them around, and then have to turn that poo into liquid isk somehow before a dime ever hits our wallets. Seriously, go back and look at this.
Hell, I'd rather live with the bug than with this fix, that tells me there's something really wrong with your method. |
Trespasser
5 Inch Incorporated Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 12:11:00 -
[237] - Quote
Alot of good points from the drone regions in here.
The drone regions create so many minerals for the whole of eve its really quite insane. While this doesnt affect me personally because i dont mine, it does effect people who do and this is the big reason why minerals are so depressed. Its just a massive spawn of alloys all the time.
I think the best way to fix this, is just give the drones bounty's and loot like every other npc in the game, thus removing alloys and a HUGE amount of minerals from the game. With this change i feel that mineral prices will rebound quite well given time and thus would make everything a bit more pricey. This would also bring back mining as a legit profession again and maybe people will start doing it like they did back in 03-04.
With these changes everyone can get about the same amount of cash per hour and we wouldnt be having this issue.
Im sorry greyscale but with these changes, bug or not .. it looks like your boosting everyone else and penalizing us in the drone regions. |
Valtrinor
5 Inch Incorporated Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 14:03:00 -
[238] - Quote
Trespasser wrote: [--SNIP--] Im sorry greyscale but with these changes, bug or not .. it looks like your boosting everyone else and penalizing us in the drone regions.
It wouldnt be that hard to just boost the bunkers HP, or have everything spawn when you warp into it.. or change the spawns to the turret placements etc etc.
CCP have been showing great amount of improvement this winter... I really find it hard to understand that you guys dont have enough time to increase the hp or just leave the hordes how they are till you have time to patch it. This. Everything about this. Still not 100% sold on the stuff snipped, but can see the point there too. Don't destroy an entire type of site over one little (annoying, but meh, there's ways around) bug. |
BigCountry
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 21:18:00 -
[239] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes...
This was a silly read.... Drone Alloys are not killing industry or EVE.... it may be putting a noose on miners ... but miners are not all taht make up "Industry"
Im sure ppl that manufacture love the low prices... higher mineral prices do not mean higher profits, well not for manufacturing ppl.... Plus I think you might be wrong .. consider low ends are higher now then they have been in a long time ...high ends prices are not because of alloys... |
S8nt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 22:32:00 -
[240] - Quote
BigCountry wrote:Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes... This was a silly read.... Drone Alloys are not killing industry or EVE.... it may be putting a noose on miners ... but miners are not all taht make up "Industry" Im sure ppl that manufacture love the low prices... higher mineral prices do not mean higher profits, well not for manufacturing ppl.... Plus I think you might be wrong .. consider low ends are higher now then they have been in a long time ...high ends prices are not because of alloys...
If mineral prices go up, manufacturers will make their prices higher. Killing battleships for alloys is a bit of an unrealistic source of minerals. CCP just needs to listen to the hundreds of players that suggested to changes the alloys to bounties.
I do approve of the changes made to the new alloy mineral changes on the test server. This should really help with the collapsed high end mineral market prices.
|
|
Crucis Cassiopeiae
EvE-COM
724
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 23:22:00 -
[241] - Quote
BigCountry wrote:Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes... This was a silly read.... Drone Alloys are not killing industry or EVE.... it may be putting a noose on miners ... but miners are not all taht make up "Industry" Im sure ppl that manufacture love the low prices... higher mineral prices do not mean higher profits, well not for manufacturing ppl.... Plus I think you might be wrong .. consider low ends are higher now then they have been in a long time ...high ends prices are not because of alloys...
Well... Ill only say this: I see that you don't have a clue about problem or mineral market and prices. Look a little at prices before drone regions were introduced. And low ends are not any higher.
And, i see... ravens that kill drones are industry...
|
Phigmeta
EXPCS Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 07:55:00 -
[242] - Quote
Hello CCP and CCP Grayscale,
Look I may have said some things about you guys in the past that was harsh, and maybe even hurtfull (some directed towards soundwave but thats not the point) for that I appologize
You guys have really turned this boat around and i would just like to say THANK YOU. You guys are doing it right and for that I would like to introduce you to my 2 new subs that are now paid till Nov 2012
Can't wait for winter! |
dischordia
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 15:45:00 -
[243] - Quote
S8nt wrote:BigCountry wrote:Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes... This was a silly read.... Drone Alloys are not killing industry or EVE.... it may be putting a noose on miners ... but miners are not all taht make up "Industry" Im sure ppl that manufacture love the low prices... higher mineral prices do not mean higher profits, well not for manufacturing ppl.... Plus I think you might be wrong .. consider low ends are higher now then they have been in a long time ...high ends prices are not because of alloys... If mineral prices go up, manufacturers will make their prices higher. Killing battleships for alloys is a bit of an unrealistic source of minerals. CCP just needs to listen to the hundreds of players that suggested to changes the alloys to bounties. I do approve of the changes made to the new alloy mineral changes on the test server. This should really help with the collapsed high end mineral market prices.
What changes of alloys on SISI atm they refine in to the same as TQ |
S8nt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 09:10:00 -
[244] - Quote
dischordia wrote:S8nt wrote:BigCountry wrote:Avila Cracko wrote:Question for CCP:
Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???
prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE... that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself... Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining... how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining??? Re-balance eve a little... And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...
And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew... read and not pew-pew ppl opinions... and so something for them sometimes... This was a silly read.... Drone Alloys are not killing industry or EVE.... it may be putting a noose on miners ... but miners are not all taht make up "Industry" Im sure ppl that manufacture love the low prices... higher mineral prices do not mean higher profits, well not for manufacturing ppl.... Plus I think you might be wrong .. consider low ends are higher now then they have been in a long time ...high ends prices are not because of alloys... If mineral prices go up, manufacturers will make their prices higher. Killing battleships for alloys is a bit of an unrealistic source of minerals. CCP just needs to listen to the hundreds of players that suggested to changes the alloys to bounties. I do approve of the changes made to the new alloy mineral changes on the test server. This should really help with the collapsed high end mineral market prices. What changes of alloys on SISI atm they refine in to the same as TQ
Dammit :S Here was me going to resub my accounts thinking CCP actually cares about the miners :S Guess I had old figures. Mineral prices have clearly not improved.
/me waits |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
246
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 11:43:00 -
[245] - Quote
RaZor Flash wrote: The anomaly he is referring to is the forsaken hubs. The initial wave is significantly harder.
I guess CCP thinks that everyone just rats in a carrier and doesn't need to care about tank.
Before Patch Rally points really easy, Hubs, semi difficult, havens hard, sanctums hardest
Now.. The rally point i just warped into was harder than the hub, the hub i just warped into was harder than the haven.
I dont know if you changed anything but today I just warped to a
Forsaken Hub : 7 popes (BS) (full damage at 50km) and 7 bcs is simply too much damage. Corpus B-Type mod for tank in abaddon. Couldn't tank it Forsaken Rally Point 11 Battleships(various types) 4 Hacs and 3 frigates upon warp in. I was getting destroyed. (It wasn't like this yesterday...)
Haven: 3 Popes 3 Cardinals 3 hacs 3 bs and 2 sentry guns. (I could tank this one)
Sanctum: 7 battleships 3 bcs - (I could tank this one).
Greyscale you asked for specific examples
I am telling you: Forsaken Hubs and Rally points. I would really appreciate if you balanced them. They need to be a step down from havens and sanctums, not a step up. The easiest way to do this, is to create move waves or simply lessen the # of ships per wave.
I was able to do sanctums and havens and not the hubs and the rally point today. Are you honestly going to try to tell me that's intentional?
I *really* hope you can get this done before patch.
*not everyone uses a carrier or a t3 to rat in 0.0*
I'll get Bettik to have another look at this when he's back in the office. It does sound like you're talking about a very specific case of fitting here - is this a general problem for a lot of people or a specific edge case for the fit you're using?
BeanBagKing wrote:Wait, so the bug was "one shot no spawn" so rather than fix the actual bug, or put in a work around (like more HP), you removed it all together?
This is a horrible way to "fix" an issue, especially at such an "unfortunate" time. All the Anoms get a buff to line up more closely with what drone anoms make, and then drone anoms get what is effectively a nerf (for reasons others have explained already). That's no so much unfortunate, as it is ******* the drone residents, who already have to have a salvage follow them around, and then have to turn that poo into liquid isk somehow before a dime ever hits our wallets. Seriously, go back and look at this.
Hell, I'd rather live with the bug than with this fix, that tells me there's something really wrong with your method.
It was looked at as a bugfix initially, but in the course of fixing the bug we also fixed a borderline-exploit with the way the site was completing. We obviously understand that people running this site regularly would prefer to keep the site the way it was, but from our point of view the amount of money you can make off this site on TQ is pretty broken, and it's not generally policy to leave broken content in place just because some people are profiting from it being broken. |
|
Lord FunkyMunky
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 12:54:00 -
[246] - Quote
Wow ou guys really dont get the ISK:EHP thing do you!
Yes forsaken hubs etc got harder THERE SUPPOSED TO... There going to pay more!
If you want to run an easy site still, then take a step down, how about you check those loley sites i forget there names, maybe now there more your speed, and also more your normal cash flow...
Seriously just because you have a Corpus B-type doesn't mean crap if your ship is fit like crap or your sitting at 0 on 8 battleships alone...
All of the sites got a buff to ISK:EHP... so they all make more isk per ehp you shoot at, the top 3 tiers all got big buffs, so try taking a look at the "smaller" sites...
They used to be useless and completely ignored, what CCP did was MAKE THE **** SITES USEFUL! Try them,
If you can't tank it in your BS (poor skills, bad fit whatever the case) get a friend and RR, or as i said above try a lower anom. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 13:27:00 -
[247] - Quote
Lord FunkyMunky wrote:Wow ou guys really dont get the ISK:EHP thing do you!
Yes forsaken hubs etc got harder THERE SUPPOSED TO... There going to pay more!
If you want to run an easy site still, then take a step down, how about you check those loley sites i forget there names, maybe now there more your speed, and also more your normal cash flow...
Seriously just because you have a Corpus B-type doesn't mean crap if your ship is fit like crap or your sitting at 0 on 8 battleships alone...
All of the sites got a buff to ISK:EHP... so they all make more isk per ehp you shoot at, the top 3 tiers all got big buffs, so try taking a look at the "smaller" sites...
They used to be useless and completely ignored, what CCP did was MAKE THE **** SITES USEFUL! Try them,
If you can't tank it in your BS (poor skills, bad fit whatever the case) get a friend and RR, or as i said above try a lower anom.
Actually i'd like it to stay as it is. Just divide the waves instead of making one mega wave. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 14:04:00 -
[248] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:...
... it's not generally policy to leave broken content in place just because some people are profiting from it being broken. This is the quote of the year, if not the quote of all time in the context of EVE's existence.
c/d? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Mograthi
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 14:34:00 -
[249] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: it's not generally policy to leave broken content in place just because some people are profiting from it being broken.
LOL you guys fix broken content?
Hmm Faction War still broken - Check Cosmos Really broken and left in place - Check Incursion payout in Hi sec - Check Lo Sec - Check Mining - Check
Yeah no broken things left in your game....
But the rest of the Patch is nice and i love those improvements. Really just change drones to bounty rats, align them to the sanctums and we can all stop whining and get on with playing with all the new cool things. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:08:00 -
[250] - Quote
That guy's problem might only be with the fit.. did you devs changed the overall power of the top level (corpus pope, gist seraphim, etc..) battleships? With the same fit i am now on sisi, i could only tank 4 to 5 popes. Now i could hold eight.
They got through my tank, but i survived long enough to thin out the incoming DPS. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
|
Trespasser
5 Inch Incorporated Shadow of xXDEATHXx
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:46:00 -
[251] - Quote
if its giving to much money FIX IT, Stop a few battleships from spawing.... get rid of alloys and make the bounties... you can leave it how it is by just changing the bounty..
Stop being lazy ffs |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:54:00 -
[252] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'll get Bettik to have another look at this when he's back in the office. It does sound like you're talking about a very specific case of fitting here - is this a general problem for a lot of people or a specific edge case for the fit you're using?
I appreciate you getting Bettik to get another look at it, but I am seriously doubting anything is going to be done. I am generally on the test server, or in game and I can explain to you in more detail why this patch is a nerf. Maybe this site deserves a nerf, I guess making 90 mil an hour for 6 months was a good run I guess.
If not, I will try to make this a clear as possible so you comprehend this. I can solo Sanctums and Havens easier than I can Forsaken Hubs and Rally Points (on test server). Are you trying to tell me that's *intended*? Seriously?
If by specific case in fitting, you mean using a Battleship and not using a terrible fit that earns horrendous isk per hour, then sure.
I am asking that the initial mega wave, be toned down, Forsaken Hubs and Rally points NEED to be EASIER than Havens and Sanctums.
I can complete and finish the "harder" Sanctums and Havens without having to warp to out. I cannot complete the forsaken hub or the forsaken rally point (I had 12 battleships upon warp in one time-I think it was half done and screwed up somehow)
On a side note: The rest of the site is absolutely wonderful. Just that initial wave needs to be toned down, cut in half or something.
Lord FunkyMunky,
I sent you an eve-mail in game. I don't feel like arguing with an alliance member on the forums. But you are completely wrong.
|
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:00:00 -
[253] - Quote
i'm still going to check the forsaken hubs on sisi, but indeed 8 to 12 popes sounds a lot for one single wave =)
Perhaps divide the waves like its being suggested? The ISK:EHP remains the same and the overall bounty for the anomaly remains the same, but the lower level anom will still be easier to do than the higher level ones.
Also do remember that these HAC's generally do E-war so too many hacs on one single wave might make it more difficult then it really should. Especially for gurista regions. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
Forlorn Wongraven
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:26:00 -
[254] - Quote
I checked Havens, Sanctum and Forsaken Hubs with a T2 fit Golem in Sansha space. DPS on the initial spawn of the Forsaken Hub was so high that I nearly lost the Golem, warping out in structure twice. Ugleb > and TDR won't log in so long as their core members are demotivated for whichever reason is in flavour this week |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:53:00 -
[255] - Quote
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:I checked Havens, Sanctum and Forsaken Hubs with a T2 fit Golem in Sansha space. DPS on the initial spawn of the Forsaken Hub was so high that I nearly lost the Golem, warping out in structure twice.
You really shouldn't be using a shield tanked ship against sansha rats =) Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
Forlorn Wongraven
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 18:24:00 -
[256] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Forlorn Wongraven wrote:I checked Havens, Sanctum and Forsaken Hubs with a T2 fit Golem in Sansha space. DPS on the initial spawn of the Forsaken Hub was so high that I nearly lost the Golem, warping out in structure twice. You really shouldn't be using a shield tanked ship against sansha rats =)
Hehe, well - I used to run a similar fit in TQ for roughly 2 years in Sansha space, there is nothing wrong with that (esp for tanking plexes). Ugleb > and TDR won't log in so long as their core members are demotivated for whichever reason is in flavour this week |
StuRyan
Assisted Homicide Legion of The Damned.
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 00:25:00 -
[257] - Quote
main thing is making null sec appealing again....and giving people the ability to make isk to buy ships to pvp.
there are vast amounts of null sec that still unused.... and from a pvp perspective the amount of locations to grief has decreased... whilst the chance of blobs has increased...small gang wafare is very rare these days and when you do manage to get a fight its usually bait for a bigger fleet..... i hope these changes make null more interesting from a non-blobbing perspective.
|
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 02:00:00 -
[258] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: It was looked at as a bugfix initially, but in the course of fixing the bug we also fixed a borderline-exploit with the way the site was completing. We obviously understand that people running this site regularly would prefer to keep the site the way it was, but from our point of view the amount of money you can make off this site on TQ is pretty broken, and it's not generally policy to leave broken content in place just because some people are profiting from it being broken.
What is the borderline-exploit are you reffering to? Is this just being able to spawn the entire site at once? I'm not sure how this is an exploit or if there is something here I'm not aware of. If so, then yes, that is definatly fixed. As for the not leaving broken content in place. I will give you credit that you are rebalancing a number of things in this patch, but *cough*tech moons*cough*...
As for the middle point. From the point of view of a dronelands resident yes I would like to keep it the way it is (spawning everything at once). In my opinion this brings it back in line with other sites in other space. The reason being that in other space I don't have to have a person/alt follow me around salvaging. By being able to spawn the entire site at once, I can take aggro, and warp my salvager in, allowing me to salvage as I run it, and not having to spend extra time in the site. WIth aggro spawning at different times I now have to somehow protect my noctis in each and every site, slowing me down and lowering the ISK/min that can be made. Now, if this is still too high (the isk/min) then that is what needs to be balanced by removing value, I'm not sure what is made in other parts of space, so I won't comment on this.
I guess the tl;dr of all this is that I hope CCP isn't just looking at the raw value of the site, but the isk/minute value of each site. If one site is worth 20m and can be run in 2 minutes, and another site is worth 100m, but takes 100 minutes to run, the 100m site is not OP and needs not be nerfed, because that one makes you 1m isk per min while the other makes 10m isk per min. Exagerated example, but it gets the point across. Again, I have no idea how much you can make running sanctums in other space nets you on an isk/min scale, so maybe this does bring it in line, I just think it's the wrong way of going about it. It seems like the lazy way to fix a bug.
Still, if this is my only complaint about this patch, it's shaping up to be a nice one. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 22:55:00 -
[259] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:... but *cough*tech moons*cough*... Thought that I'd highlight that one for CCP.
Two years of a highly imbalanced industrial situation that never needed to be implemented. That was the CCP of old.
What actions will the CCP of today take to rectify past poor design decisions?
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Shander Maxum
Shander Maxum Universal Ltd.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 00:48:00 -
[260] - Quote
"daily" mission allotments per account
-- thats the only viable methon I can dream up that will allow players not terribly fond of pve to be able to afford and lose middle ships that are in the middle of the bell curve cost wise of what large groups deploy ( players only hoping to do it for a few hours a week at their half-assed focus level,)
Its got to be rediculoulsy easy for casual players to earn 40-50 million isk an hour for 5 hours a week per accound and only 5 hours a week near where they base for pvp, without fancy fit pve only ships...huge premeditation.
50 million isk an hour isn't a terribly high rate for power pve'rs... even multiboxing its likely a money loser in opportunity costs... and not an invitation to end run the new system by creating hundreds of alts accounts (and they'd be costing isk for plex too).
Maybe it.s 6 hours at 35 million a week .. idk the precise number isn't the point.
Any earning system that scales in an unlimmited way with time played is gong to be at risk of marginalizing the play experience of people who'd like to pay a company a modest amount of money a month and do thiings they enjoy for the modest number of hours a week they log on to play the game.
Parts of the game will still be that way but Creating a bit of a safety net for pvpr's in the center is going to allow you to be more agressive cutting back the earnings from the infinitely repeatable activities. |
|
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 07:32:00 -
[261] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'll get Bettik to have another look at this when he's back in the office. It does sound like you're talking about a very specific case of fitting here - is this a general problem for a lot of people or a specific edge case for the fit you're using?
This is not a problem accruing with a specific fitting or ship the damage of the first wave in Forsaken Hubs and most of the other "upgraded" lower sites is just not tankable. You're forcing people to use carriers even for these "low end" sites. I've tried flying Angel Forsaken Hubs with a fully faction/deathspace fitted Machariel which tanks allot and it can not take the first wave in most of these. To add to the problem you added random triggers for the next wave so if you unlucky shoot the trigger you will have even more of an unthinkable spawn. You really need to tune the first wave down maybe like it was stated before add another wave this will not effect the income at all but will ease up most of these anomalies. Also you might want to look at the number of elite cruisers that spawn cuz they are lowering the overall income conciderably because of their low bounty but take allot of time to get rid of not due to Hitpoints but rather due to their signature/resistances/speed! |
Xtops
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 07:48:00 -
[262] - Quote
I have to agree with the other "drone horde" people on this one.
You have plenty of broken content still in game as mentioned by previous posters. Please just add more HP to the bunkers for now, and take the time to assess them fully.
As also mentioned, in order to make any profit about (~70,000 ISK -shooting towers), you HAVE to salvage. For most people, that means a second account. You're effectively trying to alienate your best subscribers with this move.
We're not making too much money when you realize that we're supporting two accounts.
Kind of a **** move don't you think? "Timing is unfortunate" - you've got a week to change it back. That's plenty of time. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 11:01:00 -
[263] - Quote
Still i have the question. What about, faction/officer NPCs and with their droptable, because this is already is a crap.
I did 103, 8/10 complex and i got faction loot one time altogether. This is fine ? What about the faction NPC spawns in anomaly too ? I didn't see there dark blood or other faction NPC almost one year long time. |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 13:04:00 -
[264] - Quote
I talked to Bettik about the Forsaken Hubs and we're in agreement that they're "too killy" as they are. There's now a defect on these sites to have the initial spawn tuned down a bit; it won't be fixed in the initial Crucible release because we're too close to deployment now, but it's listed as a high-priority fix so it should be sorted "not too long" after. |
|
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 13:32:00 -
[265] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:but it's listed as a high-priority fix so it should be sorted "not too long" after.
"not too long" = 1/4 of "soon" ? ;)
|
Kisuke Riva
Ares Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 14:08:00 -
[266] - Quote
18 months? :) |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
344
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 14:20:00 -
[267] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:I talked to Bettik about the Forsaken Hubs and we're in agreement that they're "too killy" as they are. There's now a defect on these sites to have the initial spawn tuned down a bit; it won't be fixed in the initial Crucible release because we're too close to deployment now, but it's listed as a high-priority fix so it should be sorted "not too long" after.
By toned down you mean splitting it in two waves so that the anomaly has one more wave, or outright removing rats from it? The number of rats for the overall anomaly is good the way it is. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
259
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 14:25:00 -
[268] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:I talked to Bettik about the Forsaken Hubs and we're in agreement that they're "too killy" as they are. There's now a defect on these sites to have the initial spawn tuned down a bit; it won't be fixed in the initial Crucible release because we're too close to deployment now, but it's listed as a high-priority fix so it should be sorted "not too long" after. By toned down you mean splitting it in two waves so that the anomaly has one more wave, or outright removing rats from it? The number of rats for the overall anomaly is good the way it is.
We want to keep the total bounty in the site the same, so it'll probably be some fiddle to ensure that you're just not fighting quite so many at the same time. |
|
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 14:29:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:I talked to Bettik about the Forsaken Hubs and we're in agreement that they're "too killy" as they are. There's now a defect on these sites to have the initial spawn tuned down a bit; it won't be fixed in the initial Crucible release because we're too close to deployment now, but it's listed as a high-priority fix so it should be sorted "not too long" after. By toned down you mean splitting it in two waves so that the anomaly has one more wave, or outright removing rats from it? The number of rats for the overall anomaly is good the way it is. We want to keep the total bounty in the site the same, so it'll probably be some fiddle to ensure that you're just not fighting quite so many at the same time.
That would mean you have to ensure that the next wave is only trigged when the previous wave has been completely cleared away:) |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
344
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 14:39:00 -
[270] - Quote
Ah, nice then. On a related matter, did you guys managed to find out what was wrong with the Forsaken Hubs? It est, they would spawn with no rats at all and sometimes having a GM try to force a respawn wouldn't work, requiring two to three consecutive downtimes to have it fixed.
Apparently this happened when the anomaly would be left half-finished before a downtime. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
|
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
265
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 15:57:00 -
[271] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Ah, nice then. On a related matter, did you guys managed to find out what was wrong with the Forsaken Hubs? It est, they would spawn with no rats at all and sometimes having a GM try to force a respawn wouldn't work, requiring two to three consecutive downtimes to have it fixed.
Apparently this happened when the anomaly would be left half-finished before a downtime.
Bettik reworked a bunch of sites to make them more robust; hopefully this will solve that problem, but if it doesn't, please bugreport it again after Crucible. |
|
Mograthi
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 16:28:00 -
[272] - Quote
Sigh..... Okay so is there going to be any iteration on the drone anomolies? Make them bounty rats or figure out how to balance them with the rest of the bounty anoms in their current drone poo format?
I guess for us drone folks it sounds like the options CCP wants to give us are:
1. Move out of the drone regions to bounty space. 2. Log in our Hi-Sec logi alts and run incursions for more isk per hour than any of the 0.0 folks can make in the anoms and with much less risk at that. 3. Go run Lvl 4 missions in Hi-sec on said empire alts.
Guess it is time for me to dust off the hi-sec logi alt and go for incursions
If your aim was to buff mining by making those of us who rat in drone regions not rat, then well played, I hope the miners enjoy their buff.
|
Kisuke Riva
Ares Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 16:44:00 -
[273] - Quote
Less gun-mining and more socializing in form of Incursions or mining fleets. Go go CCP! |
Nyra D
Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 20:58:00 -
[274] - Quote
I would like more socializing but, Incursion fleets in highsec give you far too much reward. It's atm impossible to make 100+ mio / hour in Dronespace with just one Char. Just to compare the rewards.
If you CCP change the Hordes to the wave spawn methode then i will promisse you that the one half of the Drone inhabitants will need to work harder for less ISK. And the other ones will just leave the space which NO ONE wants !
By the site, if the people leave Dronespace and go doing highsec Incursions, then they will just like me downgrade from 3 Chars to just one because i dont need more in Highsec to make more money then now. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 22:51:00 -
[275] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:I talked to Bettik about the Forsaken Hubs and we're in agreement that they're "too killy" as they are. There's now a defect on these sites to have the initial spawn tuned down a bit; it won't be fixed in the initial Crucible release because we're too close to deployment now, but it's listed as a high-priority fix so it should be sorted "not too long" after.
I ... am... shocked /awed/surprised. You listened!
When will I be able to test the revised sites and do you think you will actually make them easier than havens?
I applaud you for listening!
Did you look at Forsaken Rally Points as well? They had some massive spawns of battleships. There was 12 up when I warped to one.
Anyways,
Yay!
|
Denidil
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
192
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 03:02:00 -
[276] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Ah, nice then. On a related matter, did you guys managed to find out what was wrong with the Forsaken Hubs? It est, they would spawn with no rats at all and sometimes having a GM try to force a respawn wouldn't work, requiring two to three consecutive downtimes to have it fixed.
Apparently this happened when the anomaly would be left half-finished before a downtime. Bettik reworked a bunch of sites to make them more robust; hopefully this will solve that problem, but if it doesn't, please bugreport it again after Crucible.
i was about to reiterate that they need toned down and i see you're doing it. good. serpentis forlorn hub forced me to warp out in a 400dps permarepping mega. not the highest dps tank but it should be good enough for freaking anoms. MM Bombers, Best Bombers |
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 10:32:00 -
[277] - Quote
@CCP Greyscale when you guys decided to calculate the value of anomalies based on EHP:ISK did you take into account the fact that all high value NPC's have a much larger obit then the lower ones which results in quit a bit of DPS being lost and time being lost to approach these? Because after allot of testing right now on SISI I make less isk per hour then BEFORE your so called buff. Because my Fighter need more time to get to the targets even doh they have a higher EHP:ISK ratio I still make less. Due to the time it takes to take them out / get to them. Ofc this will not affect missile ships but this DOES affect all turret and drone ships quit a bit. So here's my question what are you gonna do about it? Because right now as I see it a Forsaken Hub yields 27,8M bounty total but takes 18 minutes to complete while before it was about 18M bounty and took 10 minutes to complete. So that leaves me with 1,8M isk per minute right now and after change its about 1,55M isk per minute which means that this is infact a nerf. What this change will do is open up more anomalies for others because right now you need 2 havens/forsaken hubs etc per person to be profitable after patch you will only need 1 per person. Still your intention to buff income has not been meet. A simple fix would be change the orbiting radius of the value NPC's from 39km down to 20-25km this would make quit a difference for all the people using short range weapons like blasters. |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
283
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 10:56:00 -
[278] - Quote
Baki Yuku wrote:@CCP Greyscale when you guys decided to calculate the value of anomalies based on EHP:ISK did you take into account the fact that all high value NPC's have a much larger obit then the lower ones which results in quit a bit of DPS being lost and time being lost to approach these? Because after allot of testing right now on SISI I make less isk per hour then BEFORE your so called buff. Because my Fighter need more time to get to the targets even doh they have a higher EHP:ISK ratio I still make less. Due to the time it takes to take them out / get to them. Ofc this will not affect missile ships but this DOES affect all turret and drone ships quit a bit. So here's my question what are you gonna do about it? Because right now as I see it a Forsaken Hub yields 27,8M bounty total but takes 18 minutes to complete while before it was about 18M bounty and took 10 minutes to complete. So that leaves me with 1,8M isk per minute right now and after change its about 1,55M isk per minute which means that this is infact a nerf. What this change will do is open up more anomalies for others because right now you need 2 havens/forsaken hubs etc per person to be profitable after patch you will only need 1 per person. Still your intention to buff income has not been meet. A simple fix would be change the orbiting radius of the value NPC's from 39km down to 20-25km this would make quit a difference for all the people using short range weapons like blasters.
Huh. Interesting. |
|
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 11:12:00 -
[279] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Baki Yuku wrote:@CCP Greyscale when you guys decided to calculate the value of anomalies based on EHP:ISK did you take into account the fact that all high value NPC's have a much larger obit then the lower ones which results in quit a bit of DPS being lost and time being lost to approach these? Because after allot of testing right now on SISI I make less isk per hour then BEFORE your so called buff. Because my Fighter need more time to get to the targets even doh they have a higher EHP:ISK ratio I still make less. Due to the time it takes to take them out / get to them. Ofc this will not affect missile ships but this DOES affect all turret and drone ships quit a bit. So here's my question what are you gonna do about it? Because right now as I see it a Forsaken Hub yields 27,8M bounty total but takes 18 minutes to complete while before it was about 18M bounty and took 10 minutes to complete. So that leaves me with 1,8M isk per minute right now and after change its about 1,55M isk per minute which means that this is infact a nerf. What this change will do is open up more anomalies for others because right now you need 2 havens/forsaken hubs etc per person to be profitable after patch you will only need 1 per person. Still your intention to buff income has not been meet. A simple fix would be change the orbiting radius of the value NPC's from 39km down to 20-25km this would make quit a difference for all the people using short range weapons like blasters. Huh. Interesting.
yeah it kinda is:) because right now most NPC battleships in anomalies such as forsaken hubs have very low orbits which makes it easy to kill them with short range weapons. For example with Angels: Gist Saint (6250 m), Gist Warlord (7600 m), Gist Malakim (6500 m), Gist General (7200 m). Before you had quit a few of this in the mix now all you have is Gist Cherubim and Gist Seraphim which dont get me wrong is nice bounty wise but they orbit at 39km which is a real hassle even with a Machariel and her near endless falloff you loss quit a bit DPS wise and that is to say that Machariel is the ideal ship for these Angel sites now consider how it is for someone flying a Blaster ship / Drone ship / Laser ship. And in Angel space that is still manageable. If you look at Serpentis space with the endless dampening there its even worse. EHP:ISK ratio does not reflect this. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 11:13:00 -
[280] - Quote
That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).
However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?
It would also be nice if EVE PVE content would be more interesting and dynamic so people wouldn't have so much spare time to calculate minute variations in ISK/hr and plan dps/kill rate optimizations... - predictable and farmable rats are predictable. However, I must admit that considerable randomization in lethality of missions/sites would be somewhat bad as well, as it would result in piles of super expensive carebear ship wrecks and :rage:. However, it is possible to have dynamic and randomized content with consistent challenge level (and ample opportunity to react and tactically retreat - less instant "scrammed, webbed, boom" style traps if your tank isn't good enough even when webbed to 10m/s). |
|
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 11:48:00 -
[281] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).
However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?
You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
350
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 12:17:00 -
[282] - Quote
Baki Yuku wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).
However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?
You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less.
Railguns aren't used for ratting because up until now, they weren't used for anything.
Beams are used for ratting.
Sentries are not viable for ratting with machariel because machariel is not a sentry ship.
Ratting with a sentry carrier really sucks..
Again, railguns. You are completely forgetting about the changes coming to them.
I apologize, but reading your posts you strike me as the kind of person who has a hard time figuring things out.
Buffs to the anomalies are good, the main issues have been acknowlodged and will get ironed out. For the rest, you just need to adapt. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
54
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 12:43:00 -
[283] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Dierdra Vaal wrote:My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite? Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole? The data I have in front of me suggest that - excluding PLEX - inflation has been relatively stable since mid 2008. We generally see increased volatility around expansions, but our CPI today is about the same as it was circa Q2 2008. We do need to do more work to balance out our ISK flows, but we also need people to be playing our game, and specifically we need people to be running anomalies if we want nullsec to be a healthy area of the game. I really dont mean to sound like a broken record, or be snobbish but I quote the 2010 Q4 QEN
2010 Q4 QEN wrote:EVE Central Bank has been monitoring the money supply closely and is becoming increasingly concerned about the rate of growth in the total money supply and the subsequent risk of inflation increase (see next section). The bank has therefore proposed that in 2011 there should be a focus on increasing ISK sinks in order to curb potential inflation. This change seems to be the opposite of that . . .
Also, PLEX are the standard rate of conversion between the USD or whatever real currency you want to compare it to, when the exchange rate swings widely in one direction, it indicates a weaker economy and thus inflation.
Everything else is ancillary, the PLEX is the standard that should be used to measure inflation if the ISK |
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 13:06:00 -
[284] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Baki Yuku wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).
However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?
You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less. Railguns aren't used for ratting because up until now, they weren't used for anything. Beams are used for ratting. Sentries are not viable for ratting with machariel because machariel is not a sentry ship. Ratting with a sentry carrier really sucks.. Again, railguns. You are completely forgetting about the changes coming to them. I apologize, but reading your posts you strike me as the kind of person who has a hard time figuring things out. Buffs to the anomalies are good, the main issues have been acknowlodged and will get ironed out. For the rest, you just need to adapt.
Yeah Beams are used for ratting but to my knowledge only for belt ratting doh I might be wrong about that. And Yeah sentry's are used on machariels because you can put in 4 of these and with the massive falloff machariels offer you do not need to move in anomalies at all.
Also in regards to the incoming railgun changes yeah I sure as hell took them into account and guess what damage wise they dont change all that much which means it also does not effect your ratting efficiency.
I already stated that ratting carrier with sentry's is not an option so your point is?...
|
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
49
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 15:28:00 -
[285] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Baki Yuku wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).
However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?
You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less. Railguns aren't used for ratting because up until now, they weren't used for anything. Beams are used for ratting. Sentries are not viable for ratting with machariel because machariel is not a sentry ship. Ratting with a sentry carrier really sucks.. Again, railguns. You are completely forgetting about the changes coming to them. I apologize, but reading your posts you strike me as the kind of person who has a hard time figuring things out. Buffs to the anomalies are good, the main issues have been acknowlodged and will get ironed out. For the rest, you just need to adapt.
May i add also that they will be adding T2 Tractor beams! Just saying....
However, I would like to know the difference (Isk:hr) between fitting short range and using sentry drones as apposed to fitting long range and using heavy/med/scout drones now that the new hybrid changes are coming. Depending on answer, sounds like the domi is the new it ship for anoms! G¥Æ Single G¥Æ Taken G£ö Playing EVE Online
CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing? CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do? |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 16:00:00 -
[286] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Baki Yuku wrote:@CCP Greyscale when you guys decided to calculate the value of anomalies based on EHP:ISK did you take into account the fact that all high value NPC's have a much larger obit then the lower ones which results in quit a bit of DPS being lost and time being lost to approach these? Because after allot of testing right now on SISI I make less isk per hour then BEFORE your so called buff. Because my Fighter need more time to get to the targets even doh they have a higher EHP:ISK ratio I still make less. Due to the time it takes to take them out / get to them. Ofc this will not affect missile ships but this DOES affect all turret and drone ships quit a bit. So here's my question what are you gonna do about it? Because right now as I see it a Forsaken Hub yields 27,8M bounty total but takes 18 minutes to complete while before it was about 18M bounty and took 10 minutes to complete. So that leaves me with 1,8M isk per minute right now and after change its about 1,55M isk per minute which means that this is infact a nerf. What this change will do is open up more anomalies for others because right now you need 2 havens/forsaken hubs etc per person to be profitable after patch you will only need 1 per person. Still your intention to buff income has not been meet. A simple fix would be change the orbiting radius of the value NPC's from 39km down to 20-25km this would make quit a difference for all the people using short range weapons like blasters. Huh. Interesting.
Im not really sure how to take your response but, He is completely right.
I feel like I need to ask the questions since you are communicating with us. Thank you by the way
What is the intention of increasing the ISK:EHP ratio? Are you actually trying to increase profitability in 0.0...as in more isk per hour? Why are you even doing this / What is your hope? Are you starting to understand this is a nerf or was that your intention all along?
Greyscale, you do realize I'm NOT campaigning for more isk/hour.
I am campaigning to earn slightly *less* than I do on live. The high priority update that will happen *eventually* will soften the nerf bat, but I believe in the end it will still be a nerf. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.
The biggest buff you did to 0.0 anomalies with the scanner change. :P
|
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 17:26:00 -
[287] - Quote
Zendoren wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Baki Yuku wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).
However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?
You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less. Railguns aren't used for ratting because up until now, they weren't used for anything. Beams are used for ratting. Sentries are not viable for ratting with machariel because machariel is not a sentry ship. Ratting with a sentry carrier really sucks.. Again, railguns. You are completely forgetting about the changes coming to them. I apologize, but reading your posts you strike me as the kind of person who has a hard time figuring things out. Buffs to the anomalies are good, the main issues have been acknowlodged and will get ironed out. For the rest, you just need to adapt. May i add also that they will be adding T2 Tractor beams! Just saying.... However, I would like to know the difference (Isk:hr) between fitting short range and using sentry drones as apposed to fitting long range and using heavy/med/scout drones now that the new hybrid changes are coming. Depending on answer, sounds like the domi is the new it ship for anoms!
Its just not viable to use long range weapons in anomalies because of the extremely long cycle time high alpha (beams/artys) you will always wast away damage/time. Another issue is once ships slip under your tracking.. And ofc there is the difference in DPS which is at least 20% and that's only the numerical difference not taking into account wasted damage/time due to to many guns on a bs/cruiser etc.. So sadly no long range fits are not a viable option for ratting.
If you life in a region where you need EMP/TERM/EXPLO ammo your best choise would be the machariel due to its 50% falloff bonus enabling it to hit quit nicly at 20-30km distance fit it with 4 sentry's as well and you don't need to move at all in the anomaly get instant damage of which next to nothing gets wasted etc.. Same applys for the Nightmare in Sansha/Blood space. Machariel 800mm autos and Nightmare with T2 pulse.
Well after patch this is obviously getting a bit less isk/h bit it is still a whole lot more then you get with long range fits and yes I've tested it. |
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 20:28:00 -
[288] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:
That honestly isn't how it works. If PVP for the sake of PVP was the most fun you could have, people would duke it out on the test servers even more than they do today. The real driver is meaningful PVP.
The problem is that test servers empty (not to mention the rules for consentual pvp only..)
I have never really thought of having reasons for pvp. People rarely fight even when they have to. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
350
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 21:37:00 -
[289] - Quote
Baki Yuku wrote:Yeah Beams are used for ratting but to my knowledge only for belt ratting doh I might be wrong about that. And Yeah sentry's are used on machariels because you can put in 4 of these and with the massive falloff machariels offer you do not need to move in anomalies at all.
Also in regards to the incoming railgun changes yeah I sure as hell took them into account and guess what damage wise they dont change all that much which means it also does not effect your ratting efficiency.
I already stated that ratting carrier with sentry's is not an option so your point is?...
My point was that i was agreeing with you on that specific point =)
The changes are good. Before them you could only hope to make >100m per hour with sanctums. Now you can make 100m per hour with sanctums, havens, forsaken hubs, forsaken rally points and forlon hubs. It is possible. The problem is that apparently you want to apply your old tactic to new content instead of adapting.
Like i said, the problem is you, not what is being changed. Adapt. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 22:53:00 -
[290] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Baki Yuku wrote:Yeah Beams are used for ratting but to my knowledge only for belt ratting doh I might be wrong about that. And Yeah sentry's are used on machariels because you can put in 4 of these and with the massive falloff machariels offer you do not need to move in anomalies at all.
Also in regards to the incoming railgun changes yeah I sure as hell took them into account and guess what damage wise they dont change all that much which means it also does not effect your ratting efficiency.
I already stated that ratting carrier with sentry's is not an option so your point is?...
My point was that i was agreeing with you on that specific point =) The changes are good. Before them you could only hope to make >100m per hour with sanctums. Now you can make 100m per hour with sanctums, havens, forsaken hubs, forsaken rally points and forlon hubs. It is possible. The problem is that apparently you want to apply your old tactic to new content instead of adapting. Like i said, the problem is you, not what is being changed. Adapt.
We had a convo, and correct me if im wrong, but you are making 100 mil per hour in anomalies using multiple accounts.
Not solo and in a sub-cap battleship. Or am I mistaken?
If you are doing it solo, and in a sub cap ship, we need to talk again :D
We need to talk about isk per hour in anomalies on a per character standard.
I.e. I can make 90 mil an hour, with 1 character on live, sub capital.
|
|
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 10:12:00 -
[291] - Quote
@ Grayscale have you ever concider'd just switch all the Deathspace NPC's in anomalies out for Asteroid type NPC's this would boost income by quit a bit. The reasons are asteroid NPC's have higher bountys, lower resistances and larger signature radius. This should enable well skilled zero zero pilots to get far more out of anomalies. About 1,5 to 2 times as much as right now so with a pimp ship you should get 40-60mil per tick which translates into 120-180m which I think it should be concidering its zero zero where you life so you have to pay for pvp ships and stuff this.
You can determine the value of an anomaly based on sec status so for example in a -0,45 to -0,54 system the best battleships in anomalies would be 1,55m bounty for angel space that would be Angel Throne. It would equal what can spawn in belts and best that can spawn for belts in -0.45 to -0.54 are Angel Thrones for angel space. The better the sec status gets the better the anomalies get much the same with "bad" space. This would make the difference between desirable space and not so much more drastic and maybe increase the change that people would acutely fight based on the value of a system in regards to ratting.
The same should be done with Hidden belts (Industry upgrades) the better the sec status the more A-B-C you get in hidden belts. But that's just my opinion. Because right now every zero zero system no matter how "bad" the sec status is worth equally much for miners and that is stu:pid. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
22
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 10:50:00 -
[292] - Quote
Still not got answer. What about with faction spawns, and ridicuolus low faction drop rate ? |
Redklaw
VALHALLA'S Wrath True Reign
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 14:43:00 -
[293] - Quote
What Baki is talking about is something you only really get if you live in Angels space (which I do), as it's pretty much localized to that rat type. Which is why the arguments "fit arty / rails" and "it screws up everything else" keep going back and forth.
The extreme majority of Angels rats are extreme close range orbiters, I'm talking like inside 5km orbits for almost every single rat. They are also very fast rats. So pretty much you need to fit close in weapon systems like AC's in order to complete these with any type of real speed (as you will be relying on drone dps for anything that comes within the tracking speed of artillery).
The issue for him is that Angel's rats with VERY high bounties have 40-45km orbits and move relatively fast. This means by adding a whole lot of these we have an uneven distribution of rats in these anomalies that makes it more difficult to build a non-missile ship that can maintain a damage envelope that can compete with the ISK / Hr rewards in the anomalies that are currently on TQ.
Most ships will get more ISK per anomaly in most angel sites, but less ISK per hour than what can currently be achieved on TQ.
Some ships won't really notice a difference. I normally PVE in null in either a Cynabal (when ratting) or a Sleipnir (anoms), so I will probably benefit a bit (I fit for AC's, but I travel OMGWTFBBQ m/s in a Sleipnir so it doesn't matter much). Drake / Tengu users will reap in the ISK / Hr.
Pretty much, the type of rats being added nerf most turret ship ratters in Angels Space. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 17:19:00 -
[294] - Quote
Redklaw wrote:What Baki is talking about is something you only really get if you live in Angels space (which I do), as it's pretty much localized to that rat type. Which is why the arguments "fit arty / rails" and "it screws up everything else" keep going back and forth.
The extreme majority of Angels rats are extreme close range orbiters, I'm talking like inside 5km orbits for almost every single rat. They are also very fast rats. So pretty much you need to fit close in weapon systems like AC's in order to complete these with any type of real speed (as you will be relying on drone dps for anything that comes within the tracking speed of artillery).
The issue for him is that Angel's rats with VERY high bounties have 40-45km orbits and move relatively fast. This means by adding a whole lot of these we have an uneven distribution of rats in these anomalies that makes it more difficult to build a non-missile ship that can maintain a damage envelope that can compete with the ISK / Hr rewards in the anomalies that are currently on TQ.
Most ships will get more ISK per anomaly in most angel sites, but less ISK per hour than what can currently be achieved on TQ.
Some ships won't really notice a difference. I normally PVE in null in either a Cynabal (when ratting) or a Sleipnir (anoms), so I will probably benefit a bit (I fit for AC's, but I travel OMGWTFBBQ m/s in a Sleipnir so it doesn't matter much). Drake / Tengu users will reap in the ISK / Hr.
Pretty much, the type of rats being added nerf most turret ship ratters in Angels Space.
The isk/hour is all that matters.
If someone is able to get 90 mil an hour live but after this patch they get 70 mil/hour Then another person who gets 30 mil an hour now gets 40 mil after patch.
Is the patch a buff or nerf?
Im going ot go with nerf, becuase the person who was earning 30 had the potential to earn 90 they just couldln't figure out how to do it.
The only thing that matters, imo, is maximum isk/hour for a EACH character in a sub capital ship. Honestly though, thanatos is the only carrier worth using for ratting, the others just dont have the firepower. |
myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 03:22:00 -
[295] - Quote
I think the real question is bounties on rogue drones, YES NO WHEN
Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
Mograthi
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 14:11:00 -
[296] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:I think the real question is bounties on rogue drones, YES NO WHEN
I think it is apparent what the answer for us is. Since after a certain point in this thread CCP stopped responding to anything about drones the answer us drone folks are getting is STFU/HTFU or GTFO of drone regions. Be like the rest of us and just stop ratting drones and move on to the Approved 100 million an hour ISK fountain of Incursions. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 22:55:00 -
[297] - Quote
RaZor Flash wrote:The isk/hour is all that matters.
If someone is able to get 90 mil an hour live but after this patch they get 70 mil/hour Then another person who gets 30 mil an hour now gets 40 mil after patch.
Is the patch a buff or nerf?
Im going ot go with nerf, becuase the person who was earning 30 had the potential to earn 90 they just couldln't figure out how to do it.
The only thing that matters, imo, is maximum isk/hour for a EACH character in a sub capital ship. Honestly though, thanatos is the only carrier worth using for ratting, the others just dont have the firepower.
I agree, isk/hour is all that matters. . . but what ship and skills should they use? your tengu? a deadspace tengu? an officer tengu? a nyx? a titan?
By what scale should they measure isk/hour? yours? |
Asyrdin Harate
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 23:03:00 -
[298] - Quote
Sigras wrote:RaZor Flash wrote:The isk/hour is all that matters.
If someone is able to get 90 mil an hour live but after this patch they get 70 mil/hour Then another person who gets 30 mil an hour now gets 40 mil after patch.
Is the patch a buff or nerf?
Im going ot go with nerf, becuase the person who was earning 30 had the potential to earn 90 they just couldln't figure out how to do it.
The only thing that matters, imo, is maximum isk/hour for a EACH character in a sub capital ship. Honestly though, thanatos is the only carrier worth using for ratting, the others just dont have the firepower. I agree, isk/hour is all that matters. . . but what ship and skills should they use? your tengu? a deadspace tengu? an officer tengu? a nyx? a titan? By what scale should they measure isk/hour? yours?
Regular t2 fit BS as those are the ships that the vast majority of players use. Faction fits/ships and implants are just upgrades of the regular stuff that net more isk/hour in return for a higher risk |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 09:38:00 -
[299] - Quote
what exactly is a "regular fit"? T2 rigs? short range weapons? Long range weapons? how many damage mods? shield tanked or armor tanked? what about an ishtar against the guristas? cap boosted or passive?
please link the standard fit that everyone uses for all anomalies everywhere . . . |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
59
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 11:22:00 -
[300] - Quote
Sigras wrote:what exactly is a "regular fit"? T2 rigs? short range weapons? Long range weapons? how many damage mods? shield tanked or armor tanked? what about an ishtar against the guristas? cap boosted or passive?
please link the standard fit that everyone uses for all anomalies everywhere . . .
For buffing isk/hr of a site, you wouldn't necessarily need to know the dps of a ratting ship, just the tank. You can figure that out by looking at the current DPS output of the site and try to not make that peak higher than it currently does. You can figure out if a ratter is going to need to spend more resources (slots, fitting, isk, etc) on tank, he's going to have a lower isk/hr than if he didn't.
For most people, the time it takes to warp between sites is a small part of the isk/hr equation, so the distribution of rats between high isk bc/bs and low isk cruisers/frigs and the amount of damage you need to tank are the dominant factors. CCP's "buff" reduced the time spent between sites and adjusted the distribution towards high isk rats, but the incoming damage was increased and that will be the dominant factor in almost any subcapital PvE ship.
EDIT: I'm sleepy, and I may be missing a piece or two in my argument against needing to know ratting fits to adjust (not set) isk/hr so bear with me for 8-20 hours or so. |
|
Asyrdin Harate
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 17:55:00 -
[301] - Quote
Sigras wrote:what exactly is a "regular fit"? T2 rigs? short range weapons? Long range weapons? how many damage mods? shield tanked or armor tanked? what about an ishtar against the guristas? cap boosted or passive?
please link the standard fit that everyone uses for all anomalies everywhere . . .
regular t2 fit is the one that works optimal for what you are trying to do. you can figure it out i'm sure... hint: as much DPS with as little tank as you can possibly manage, that is cap stable.
and since when is an ishtar a regular t2 fit BS?
*edit* i never meant to say the fit was regular per se, meant regular t2 fittings as in non-faction. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 19:44:00 -
[302] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Sigras wrote:what exactly is a "regular fit"? T2 rigs? short range weapons? Long range weapons? how many damage mods? shield tanked or armor tanked? what about an ishtar against the guristas? cap boosted or passive?
please link the standard fit that everyone uses for all anomalies everywhere . . . For buffing isk/hr of a site, you wouldn't necessarily need to know the dps of a ratting ship, just the tank. You can figure that out by looking at the current DPS output of the site and try to not make that peak higher than it currently does. You can figure out if a ratter is going to need to spend more resources (slots, fitting, isk, etc) on tank, he's going to have a lower isk/hr than if he didn't. For most people, the time it takes to warp between sites is a small part of the isk/hr equation, so the distribution of rats between high isk bc/bs and low isk cruisers/frigs and the amount of damage you need to tank are the dominant factors. CCP's "buff" reduced the time spent between sites and adjusted the distribution towards high isk rats, but the incoming damage was increased and that will be the dominant factor in almost any subcapital PvE ship. EDIT: I'm sleepy, and I may be missing a piece or two in my argument against needing to know ratting fits to adjust (not set) isk/hr so bear with me for 8-20 hours or so.
This.
TBH, it doesn't really matter greyscale said he was going to change it, so I just need to wait for a mirror on sisi.
Bottom line: The incoming damage was increased which offsets the ISK:EHP ratio buff therefore you make less isk/hour. This primarily affects the setups that the majority of 0.0 users run, aka, sub-capital ships.
|
Ulstan
State Protectorate Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 20:53:00 -
[303] - Quote
Greyscale thank you for engaging in this thread.
I haven't seen this question answered yet:
have low sec cosmic anomalies been boosted?
Because up till now, they have generally been completely worthless to run O.o |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:03:00 -
[304] - Quote
Ulstan wrote:Greyscale thank you for engaging in this thread.
I haven't seen this question answered yet:
have low sec cosmic anomalies been boosted?
Because up till now, they have generally been completely worthless to run O.o
Get on SISI, test them, figure out if what he did is worth your praise.
Be...proactive. All he might respond with is "Yes". How does that help you? He said he boosted the other anomalies and now he has a high priority fix because of the feedback given.
He is listening to us now, this your golden opportunity, do not squander it with questions that you can figure out yourself. Do some testing and provide your feedback.
|
Eurologist
guided by voices Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:12:00 -
[305] - Quote
DON'T TOUCH MY HORDE |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 22:56:00 -
[306] - Quote
I just did a run through of all the Angel Forsaken Hubs and Havens, i.e. what will be the standard ratting fodder post-expansion.
Well Greyscale, I think you can prepare yourself for yet another forum ****-storm when the wider player base finds out about your latest **** up with the anomilies.
Took my standard T2 fit Golem into each one, and got WTFPWN'ed by every first wave, normally within 2 minutes. At this point I consider it a waste to my time to even bother engaging with anyone who constantly is making changes but who cannot see beyond the end of their nose in terms of outcome.
Could you please tell me exacly how hard it was to simple leave the number and type of rats in any one site as they were, and simple increase their respective bounties?
I'm guessing its going to be time for you to take another extended leave from the forums and start
CCP Greyscale wrote:....looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated
Do you know that I still have no idea wtf this is susposed to mean?
I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 23:16:00 -
[307] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:I just did a run through of all the Angel Forsaken Hubs and Havens, i.e. what will be the standard ratting fodder post-expansion. Well Greyscale, I think you can prepare yourself for yet another forum ****-storm when the wider player base finds out about your latest **** up with the anomilies. Took my standard T2 fit Golem into each one, and got WTFPWN'ed by every first wave, normally within 2 minutes. At this point I consider it a waste to my time to even bother engaging with anyone who constantly is making changes but who cannot see beyond the end of their nose in terms of outcome. Could you please tell me exacly how hard it was to simple leave the number and type of rats in any one site as they were, and simple increase their respective bounties? I'm guessing its going to be time for you to take another extended leave from the forums and start CCP Greyscale wrote:....looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated Do you know that I still have no idea wtf this is susposed to mean?
Welcome to the party. CCP Greyscale's already said that they recognize that the anoms are a bit too Murderey, esp with the first wave. They plan to adjust them after the patch. They were unable to do it in the patch because it was too close to patch day.
The quote means that he was having a hard time finding well thought out reasons the nerf was unfortunate because of all the screaming going on. At the same time, he failed to take into account the possibility that the tonnage of screaming was significant for it's mass if not coherent in its message. Way to take an apology poorly. |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
291
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 23:42:00 -
[308] - Quote
Tiger's Spirit wrote:Still not got answer. What about with faction spawns, and ridicuolus low faction drop rate ?
Nothing's changed with faction spawn and faction item drop rates, AFAIK. Bettik is planning to adjust the faction spawn rates so the spawn chance scales in a more linear manner, but it's likely not going to result in an aggregate increase in spawn chances. The actual drops from faction spawns (the "tags'n'ammo" issue) isn't something we were looking at in this release.
myFORUMalt alts wrote:I think the real question is bounties on rogue drones, YES NO WHEN
We've not made a firm decision on this one way or the other yet.
Ulstan wrote:Greyscale thank you for engaging in this thread.
I haven't seen this question answered yet:
have low sec cosmic anomalies been boosted?
Because up till now, they have generally been completely worthless to run O.o
I think a lot of the lowsec anoms are used in nullsec too, so where that's the case, they'll have had a buff.
Desert Ice78 wrote:Could you please tell me exacly how hard it was to simple leave the number and type of rats in any one site as they were, and simple increase their respective bounties?
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.) |
|
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 23:51:00 -
[309] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.)
Then why are the bounties for the rats in the belts worth more then the bounties for the same rats in the anomilies? I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 23:56:00 -
[310] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.)
Then why are the bounties for the rats in the belts worth more then the bounties for the same rats in the anomilies?
Belts aren't a deadspace area. |
|
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 00:01:00 -
[311] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.)
Then why are the bounties for the rats in the belts worth more then the bounties for the same rats in the anomilies? Belts aren't a deadspace area.
I never said they were, but however it is that CCP is indexing the rats, they're doing it wrong. I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
292
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 00:03:00 -
[312] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.)
Then why are the bounties for the rats in the belts worth more then the bounties for the same rats in the anomilies?
Belt rats are totally different ingame entities with different names (all that pith/gist/etc stuff). That's just the way it is, and changing it would be a pretty monumental task right now. |
|
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 00:04:00 -
[313] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.)
Then why are the bounties for the rats in the belts worth more then the bounties for the same rats in the anomilies? Belts aren't a deadspace area. I never said they were, but however it is that CCP is indexing the rats, they're doing it wrong.
He said that the rats used in anoms are the same as all deadspace areas. You asked why the belt rats aren't the same as the anom rats. The answer is that they're not the same because they're not deadspace rats, they're belt rats. CCP Greyscale never said otherwise.
EDIT: Ninja'd by CCP Greyscale |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 00:12:00 -
[314] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.)
Then why are the bounties for the rats in the belts worth more then the bounties for the same rats in the anomilies? Belt rats are totally different ingame entities with different names (all that pith/gist/etc stuff). That's just the way it is, and changing it would be a pretty monumental task right now.
*groan, grumble, grumble, grumble* I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
220
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 04:32:00 -
[315] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.)
Then why are the bounties for the rats in the belts worth more then the bounties for the same rats in the anomilies? Belt rats are totally different ingame entities with different names (all that pith/gist/etc stuff). That's just the way it is, and changing it would be a pretty monumental task right now.
It needs to be done, or a system needs to be created to allow for bounty adjustment or scaling based on the type of deadspace area or anomaly you're in. Yeah, it's going to suck but it's absolutely vital in order to fix anomalies. |
Etheoma
Yarrfleet Another Really Stupid Enterprise
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 07:25:00 -
[316] - Quote
does this only apply to normal space or WH space as well? |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
297
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 16:39:00 -
[317] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hugely hard, because the rats used in anoms are used in all deadspace areas, including missions. Buffing bounties by say 50% would result in a ~40% (rough guess) payout increase for level 4 missions, which is not something we want to do right now.
(Changing all the anoms to use entirely new rats would probably have taken Bettik ~3 months, rather than the ~3 weeks needed for this change.)
Then why are the bounties for the rats in the belts worth more then the bounties for the same rats in the anomilies? Belt rats are totally different ingame entities with different names (all that pith/gist/etc stuff). That's just the way it is, and changing it would be a pretty monumental task right now. It needs to be done, or a system needs to be created to allow for bounty adjustment or scaling based on the type of deadspace area or anomaly you're in. Yeah, it's going to suck but it's absolutely vital in order to fix anomalies.
Sure, it's on our to-do list, and it'll get done "at some point" beyond my current planning horizon (which is not very far). In the meantime, these changes (with the Forsaken Hub fix, when it arrives) should improve the situation in the interim.
Etheoma wrote:does this only apply to normal space or WH space as well?
W-space is not affected. |
|
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 20:06:00 -
[318] - Quote
I know you said you were going to fix the initial spawn of forsaken hubs with "high priority". Thank you!
You going to fix the initial spawn of the forsaken rally points as well? They kinda burn.
The doctor told me burning is bad.
Also bounty cycles be going crazy and adding up weird. Ill have more info later
Edit:
P.S. I can pretty much gank tank them because I have max skills so i have high dps and good tank from level 5 amarr bs. I ask for a division of the initial spawn so my corpmates + other people can do these sites without needing a ridiculous tank fit hurting their dps even more.
This is assuming of course you intended for anomalies to scale in difficulty i.e. Sanctum -> Haven -> Hub -> Rally point. Cause forsaken rally points post patch are significantly harder than the hubs prepatch. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 20:46:00 -
[319] - Quote
Lol
So, Cool story,
If you warp out of a rally point and there are ships left over and leave it for like 1-2 minutes. It will despawn, rofl.
I think thats a bug. :P |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
220
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 21:14:00 -
[320] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Sure, it's on our to-do list, and it'll get done "at some point" beyond my current planning horizon (which is not very far). In the meantime, these changes (with the Forsaken Hub fix, when it arrives) should improve the situation in the interim.
Good to hear, thank you :) |
|
Humus Mama
Soimii Patriei Vera Cruz Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:46:00 -
[321] - Quote
Like some of the people on this thread, I too am not very enthusiastic about the way forsakens and rally points run now. For one, the forsakens are now nearly impossible for me to complete and make as much Isk per blink as I used to with the old ones. sure, the uber-skilled players are going to make the most money, but for the low or medium skilled members, such as myself, it is very hard for us to take down all those Popes at the same time etc etc. As another person also said, i think that by making the orbit of popes smaller, people would be able to kill them faster. Another idea would be to put more close range battleships instead of long range battleships. Sure, the bounty for each might br a bit smaller, but you would kill them much faster, resulting in more isk/blink. Another idea would be to split the forsaken hubs or rallypoints into smaller waves. This way we won't have so many rats shooting us at the same time, but rather destroying them in smaller chunks at a time.
Just my 2 cents. |
Cypher Decypher
Elite United Hard Moose Moose Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 01:47:00 -
[322] - Quote
I read 5 pages and my eyes got tired, so at the risk of repeating a question...
By "anomalies" do you also include Sleeper anoms in wspace? Have they been "buffed"?
|
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
41
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 11:17:00 -
[323] - Quote
Cypher Decypher wrote:I read 5 pages and my eyes got tired, so at the risk of repeating a question...
By "anomalies" do you also include Sleeper anoms in wspace? Have they been "buffed"?
WH's are not affected. Look for Greyscales post one page back. I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg |
Steele Balz
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 17:00:00 -
[324] - Quote
Silent nerf to the drones again !!! YO if you want to nerf drones so much why not start by taking them out of all regions but the drone regions , Lets face it they are drones they belong in the drone regions why give them to every tom **** and harry in evry region of the game . you want to balance then anoms ha what a joke you make me laugh . Drones and what they are worth is dictated by the mineral market good luck with that sparky.
whats up with the Hordes now the spawn comes in waves like some noob got popped and whined til some dev somewhere had enough , Tell me was it a goon
1) yay for silent nerfs 2)are you ever going to seriously consider fixing the drone regions to bring it up to speed with all other regions because the isk per hour suck unlike every other region 2 a) cosmic sigs have been broken since drones were intro'd (yay for crapy drone bpc) 3) escalations welp already nerfed the S@%t out of them already (thankyousirmayihaveanother) 4) stop nerfing drones and fix drone regions, try harder this time
|
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 22:57:00 -
[325] - Quote
Steele Balz wrote:Silent nerf to the drones again !!! YO if you want to nerf drones so much why not start by taking them out of all regions but the drone regions , Lets face it they are drones they belong in the drone regions why give them to every tom **** and harry in evry region of the game . you want to balance then anoms ha what a joke you make me laugh . Drones and what they are worth is dictated by the mineral market good luck with that sparky.
whats up with the Hordes now the spawn comes in waves like some noob got popped and whined til some dev somewhere had enough , Tell me was it a goon
1) yay for silent nerfs 2)are you ever going to seriously consider fixing the drone regions to bring it up to speed with all other regions because the isk per hour suck unlike every other region 2 a) cosmic sigs have been broken since drones were intro'd (yay for crapy drone bpc) 3) escalations welp already nerfed the S@%t out of them already (thankyousirmayihaveanother) 4) stop nerfing drones and fix drone regions, try harder this time
The change was to fix a Bug (borderline exploit per CCP Greyscale) where shooting certain structures would spawn the waves before they were supposed to.
1. Not silent. CCP Greyscale mentioned it in here, and it was on SISI well before patch day. 2. Before the change (which was classed as a bugfix) Drone hubs were possibly the best isk/hr anomalies availiable 3. Dunno anything about this 4. Half agreed. Drone Poo needs to go in order to allow mining to be a viable profession in Eve. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 03:19:00 -
[326] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Steele Balz wrote:Silent nerf to the drones again !!! YO if you want to nerf drones so much why not start by taking them out of all regions but the drone regions , Lets face it they are drones they belong in the drone regions why give them to every tom **** and harry in evry region of the game . you want to balance then anoms ha what a joke you make me laugh . Drones and what they are worth is dictated by the mineral market good luck with that sparky.
whats up with the Hordes now the spawn comes in waves like some noob got popped and whined til some dev somewhere had enough , Tell me was it a goon
1) yay for silent nerfs 2)are you ever going to seriously consider fixing the drone regions to bring it up to speed with all other regions because the isk per hour suck unlike every other region 2 a) cosmic sigs have been broken since drones were intro'd (yay for crapy drone bpc) 3) escalations welp already nerfed the S@%t out of them already (thankyousirmayihaveanother) 4) stop nerfing drones and fix drone regions, try harder this time
The change was to fix a Bug (borderline exploit per CCP Greyscale) where shooting certain structures would spawn the waves before they were supposed to. 1. Not silent. CCP Greyscale mentioned it in here, and it was on SISI well before patch day. 2. Before the change (which was classed as a bugfix) Drone hubs were possibly the best isk/hr anomalies availiable 3. Dunno anything about this 4. Half agreed. Drone Poo needs to go in order to allow mining to be a viable profession in Eve.
I really dont get it, they are upset because the ships come in waves instead of all at once? Is it the same number of ships?
If it is, the only thing I can think of why are they upset is because they sit in a thanatos and can lock everything up and just pew pew. Waves are amazing for pretty much everything else. |
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
37
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 05:27:00 -
[327] - Quote
RaZor Flash wrote: I really dont get it, they are upset because the ships come in waves instead of all at once? Is it the same number of ships?
If it is, the only thing I can think of why are they upset is because they sit in a thanatos and can lock everything up and just pew pew. Waves are amazing for pretty much everything else.
RaZor, for many, yes, this is what they are voicing if you asked them why they are upset. However, there are underlying reasons about why it makes them that upset. I wrote up quite a long report on exactly what difference this has made to running hordes. I've tried to make it understandable to anyone that doesn't live in drone regions. I realize it's long, but please read it if you want to know exactly what the issue is.
http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdf |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 05:43:00 -
[328] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:RaZor Flash wrote: I really dont get it, they are upset because the ships come in waves instead of all at once? Is it the same number of ships?
If it is, the only thing I can think of why are they upset is because they sit in a thanatos and can lock everything up and just pew pew. Waves are amazing for pretty much everything else.
RaZor, for many, yes, this is what they are voicing if you asked them why they are upset. However, there are underlying reasons about why it makes them that upset. I wrote up quite a long report on exactly what difference this has made to running hordes. I've tried to make it understandable to anyone that doesn't live in drone regions. I realize it's long, but please read it if you want to know exactly what the issue is. http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdf
I read it and I get your point. |
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
37
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 06:49:00 -
[329] - Quote
RaZor Flash wrote: I read it and I get your point.
I will try to paraphrase to make sure I understand.
Essentially, Drone regions are terrible but you were able to warp in with a thanatos cherry pick the BS , loot salvage then move on to the next one?
I don't know exactly what the value of other anoms were per-patch, and it probably wasn't balanced anyway. However, having lived in both bounty space and drone space, I would say that before drone regions were fine -because- you could cherry pick BS's. They weren't terrible, or buffed from what I felt, just different.
RaZor Flash wrote: It seems that they really nerfed the thanatos pilots of the drone lands, the only viable way to make decent isk/hour there.
It's been quite a while since I've flown subcaps in anoms, of either type, but I'll try to answer. I think it nerfed everyone. In other regions you still only need one pilot in one site. In drone regions a subcap pilot would still trip the bunkers one at a time, kind of like waves, and salvage after. However, now subcap pilots cannot cherry pick BS's either.
RaZor Flash wrote: Since the drone regions are quiet, people could take advantage of that quietness and use their carriers without much fear and make the region profitable by ratting in carriers without too much fear, or am I mistaken?
I both agree and disagree with this. I agree that carrier pilots can use carriers to run sites without much fear, but I think this goes for any competent carrier pilot in sov 0.0 space. Pay attention to intel channels, know where the reds are, don't go AFK, etc. However, this doesn't mean that they are quiet. PL has been known to come after our capital ships in the very recent past. NC. roams down at least once a day for fights. TNT and other entities have had covert ops gangs in our space recently as well.
I can't speak for every drone region in the game of course, I only see my little region on a daily basis. However, compairing it to other (non-drone) regions I've lived in, it's about the same I think.
RaZor Flash wrote: I'm just terrified cause you keep comparing drone regions to other 0.0 anomalies, when we should compare everything to high sec incursions.
What you should do is go to high sec, run incusions, then make a nice little chart/paragraph of how ******** incursions are :P.
I hate highsec, so you won't catch me back there for any amount of ISK :P I'll also leave that debate (that is, highsec income, lv4's, incursions, etc) to others. I'm only trying to compare what should be roughly equal parts of the game, incursions aren't really in the same category as anoms. Also, as I replied to someone else, I don't mind anoms being different, so long as the difficulties in one area are balanced by easiness, which is kinda how I viewed them pre-patch. |
Bill Lane
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:49:00 -
[330] - Quote
Update on the dronelands please? This 40% nerf to isk rate from rogue drones is really affecting a lot of people. Put bounties on them or something, but until a decision is made on how to make it comparable to other areas in null, roll it back to the way it was. Thanks |
|
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
71
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:54:00 -
[331] - Quote
Bill Lane wrote:Update on the dronelands please? This 40% nerf to isk rate from rogue drones is really affecting a lot of people. Put bounties on them or something, but until a decision is made on how to make it comparable to other areas in null, roll it back to the way it was. Thanks
Per CCP Greyscale, it was was a bug. They didn't nerf them, they fixed the bug. (He also said it was a near-exploit) Sounds to me like you should count yourself as happy you had the mineral BPOs as long as you did. |
Bill Lane
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 00:56:00 -
[332] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Per CCP Greyscale, it was was a bug. They didn't nerf them, they fixed the bug. (He also said it was a near-exploit) Sounds to me like you should count yourself as happy you had the mineral BPOs as long as you did.
I understand it was a bug fix, but before fixing it and killing the income so bad in the regions, I think it would have been a better idea to figure out what they were going to do to bring the anomalie isk/hr ratio similar to other regions. Instead they said we'll fix the bug and worry about how the players will make money later, and have effectively screwed everyone in drone space over. Not trying to hate on CCP, I think they're doing great and this expansion was amazing. I just wish this one flaw wasn't ruining how people living in the dronelands make money.
This is a great review on the effect this has had, done by BeanBagKing a couple of posts above: http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdf I recommend that everyone read it who does not live in the dronelands and wants to voice their opinion, just so they have an informed stance (Not saying you didn't RubyPorto, not trying to be rude or anything)
I'm also not against removing drone poo, leaving them the same, or bounties. I just want to be able to make some money again without moving. Thanks |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:55:00 -
[333] - Quote
Bill Lane wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Per CCP Greyscale, it was was a bug. They didn't nerf them, they fixed the bug. (He also said it was a near-exploit) Sounds to me like you should count yourself as happy you had the mineral BPOs as long as you did. I understand it was a bug fix, but before fixing it and killing the income so bad in the regions, I think it would have been a better idea to figure out what they were going to do to bring the anomalie isk/hr ratio similar to other regions. Instead they said we'll fix the bug and worry about how the players will make money later, and have effectively screwed everyone in drone space over. Not trying to hate on CCP, I think they're doing great and this expansion was amazing. I just wish this one flaw wasn't ruining how people living in the dronelands make money. This is a great review on the effect this has had, done by BeanBagKing a couple of posts above: http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdfI recommend that everyone read it who does not live in the dronelands and wants to voice their opinion, just so they have an informed stance (Not saying you didn't RubyPorto, not trying to be rude or anything) I'm also not against removing drone poo, leaving them the same, or bounties. I just want to be able to make some money again without moving. Thanks
The question is whether if this is intended or not by CCP? CCP has stated that they think 0.0 should be not balanced to create conflict. I said they think this. Does it happen? Not really (except for the idiocy that is tech), but that's beside the point.
Maybe upon review of anomalies they "suddenly" discovered this bug and decided to fix it because drone lands were never intended to make as much. I could sadly believe this.
What you should be asking greyscale is if Dronelands SHOULD be making as much isk as other parts of space.
Establish that first, then continue on your crusade to get them buffed. Its obvious they nerfed them, they *should* see that, but who knows.
Hell, Im curious to what gresycale thinks what the maximum isk/hour should be in 0.0 in a solo ship. |
Bill Lane
Entropy Tech. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 02:58:00 -
[334] - Quote
Interesting questions Razor, I hadn't thought of that. On the one hand I would think that making one region be worth less than the rest would be dumb because nobody would want to live/go there. On the other hand, it would be a perfect place for those with less skills to get into 0.0. I dunno lol |
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
37
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:41:00 -
[335] - Quote
RaZor Flash wrote:CCP has stated that they think 0.0 should be not balanced to create conflict.
I would think that, if this was their philosophy, that they wouldn't have balanced every other anom in every other region. However, you're right about asking Grayscale, and I have been. I opened a petition shortly after my first look at the new hordes asking if the "nerf" was intentional, or just an unforeseen side effect. I requested Grayscale be shown my data so he would know exactly what I was talking about. Now I can't discuss petitions but I can tell you that I never got an answer to my question or a response to my data, either here or on the forums, from any CCP member (that I know about, and I'm pretty sure I'm watching most of these threads).
Without knowing if it was intentional or an unforeseen effect, it's hard to know what direction to take. It would be nice to get a response from someone about this. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 08:08:00 -
[336] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:RaZor Flash wrote:CCP has stated that they think 0.0 should be not balanced to create conflict. I would think that, if this was their philosophy, that they wouldn't have balanced every other anom in every other region. However, you're right about asking Grayscale, and I have been. I opened a petition shortly after my first look at the new hordes asking if the "nerf" was intentional, or just an unforeseen side effect. I requested Grayscale be shown my data so he would know exactly what I was talking about. Now I can't discuss petitions but I can tell you that I never got an answer to my question or a response to my data, either here or on the forums, from any CCP member (that I know about, and I'm pretty sure I'm watching most of these threads). Without knowing if it was intentional or an unforeseen effect, it's hard to know what direction to take. It would be nice to get a response from someone about this.
They never said they balanced them, they just said that they tuned them up. In their eyes they might not be balanced, because of the different rats and ewar.
Whether or not they are balanced is irrelevant, what does CCP think is what matters :)
|
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
38
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 09:09:00 -
[337] - Quote
Edit: Ugh, I just posted that and realized what a wall of text I made it with the quotes. It would help if the quote boxes didn't have giant spaces under them, sorry :(
RaZor Flash wrote:They never said they balanced them, they just said that they tuned them up. In their eyes they might not be balanced, because of the different rats and ewar.
Whether or not they are balanced is irrelevant, what does CCP think is what matters :)
I still think they intended for a balance to occur, here's why... From the dev blog.
Quote:Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal I could be reading that wrong, but that sounds kinda like they balanced them to me. They made a goal and buffed each a bit until it reached that goal. If they are all at that same target average, then they would be (more or less) balanced correct?
CCP Grayscale wrote: we're just balancing on bounty payout this time around This was in reference to the Drone regions, but the fact that he said balancing on bounties makes me assume that it was a "balance" they were going for. Perhaps this was just a bad choice of words, and if so I won't hold it against him, but that's where I got that impression.
CCP Grayscale wrote:This site should now be more in line with other comparable anomalies While I was looking back through the posts I also found him saying this, in regards to fixing the drone anoms. When he said in line he was either referring to the wave mechanism (in which case true, they are in line) or he truly meant in line, as in balanced, in which case no. Again, we don't know though because they haven't responded directly to this.
Now, in fairness to your argument...
CCP Grayscale wrote: the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place Now, on page 8 Grayscale said "we still don't have the tools to properly assess their worth". So I'm not sure how they knew that the amount of money was way higher than intended. Personally I think that it was their assumption that the amount was way higher than intended and they wanted to tune it down to be more like the others. However, it's also possible that they truly did want to nerf the drones because they don't want to make space balanced.
He said roughly the same thing in response to a post of mine a few pages later.
Again though, you're correct, it comes down to what CCP thinks, I'm mostly just having fun hashing out the finer details with players until CCP comes along with a statement.
CCP Grayscale, if you could come back to this thread and respond to a few questions? 1) Was it your intention to make all bounty anoms balanced? 2) Was it your intention to make drone region anoms worth less than the rest of Eve? 2) Was it your intention to make all anoms (including drone regions) balanced? 4) If the answer to both #1 and #2 are yes, then why single out drone regions? 5) If #2 is no, do you plan on revisiting drone anoms and assessing their value? 6) If you do balance drone regions, can we get a rough ETA?
I tried to keep the questions fairly simple and yes or no just so I could gauge where CCP stands on this. I would appreciate as much elaboration as you can/will give though. You asked in the dev blog for any data we've collected "in the wild". For reference, here is what I've put together for current drone sites. http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdf |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
356
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 01:55:00 -
[338] - Quote
^^^
I too would like to know why Hordes are now worth less than half the direct ISk value of other Sanctums.
There's been no increase in compound drops, and add in the fact there are no NPC stations in drone sec, and no bounties means double screwed over. The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
46
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 03:15:00 -
[339] - Quote
Do we have any sort of an ETA on when the anomilies are going to be done. Again. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
|
CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
323
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 09:57:00 -
[340] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:CCP Grayscale, if you could come back to this thread and respond to a few questions? 1) Was it your intention to make all bounty anoms balanced? 2) Was it your intention to make drone region anoms worth less than the rest of Eve? 2) Was it your intention to make all anoms (including drone regions) balanced? 4) If the answer to both #1 and #2 are yes, then why single out drone regions? 5) If #2 is no, do you plan on revisiting drone anoms and assessing their value? 6) If you do balance drone regions, can we get a rough ETA? I tried to keep the questions fairly simple and yes or no just so I could gauge where CCP stands on this. I would appreciate as much elaboration as you can/will give though. You asked in the dev blog for any data we've collected "in the wild". For reference, here is what I've put together for current drone sites. http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdf
First, thanks for the data, always much appreciated :)
In response to your questions: 1) Yes (balanced in the sense that they follow a progression, rather than that they're all equal to one another) 2) No (it was our intention not to systematically adjust them at this time; other than that we didn't have any specific intentions regarding drone anoms) 2) No (see above) 4) (Skipped due to not meeting the criteria.) 5) Yes (it's "outstanding work" that needs doing, same as the missing drone plexes, and for the same reason: the drone loot structure makes this kind of work significantly less straightforward than it is for the other factions) 6) No (until work is actually committed to a sprint we're not in a position to give useful timelines for stuff at this level of detail)
The underlying problem here is that we can't really balance drones while they're still dropping alloys, because the amount each drone is worth is inversely proportional to the number of drones being killed. Every extra unit of zydrine coming out of the drone regions lowers the price of zydrine a little further. We could double the drop rate on all sites and all this would achieve is to keep drone region income about the same while also further marginalizing mining. Similarly, I'd not be totally surprised if this "nerf" corrects itself to a large degree over time, as the decreased supply (if it's as big a deal as it's being made out to be) allows mineral prices to rise. |
|
|
Sevena Black
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 13:47:00 -
[341] - Quote
The ISK buff is not the issue. When in 0.0 you burn through the isk fast enough. Unless you're a carebear, which is fine. But I'll pay you a visit and give you a reason to spend ISK :P
The sink is in place so to speak. The issue is automated EVE anomaly running programs. The so called "botters". Even when running 2 carriers and running 2 sanctums, I cant even come close to their income. Thats because I have to log off regularly to attend to my RL (also known as "wife").
Simply put: For normal players, the ISK increase is nice and helps to fuel the war. Remove the botters and the sink will equal the influx.
One idea might be to give NPC's more powerfull AI (like sleeper sites). Another may be to make PvE sites modular as was suggested earlier in this thread.
|
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
40
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:24:00 -
[342] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
First, thanks for the data, always much appreciated :)
In response to your questions: 1) Yes (balanced in the sense that they follow a progression, rather than that they're all equal to one another) 2) No (it was our intention not to systematically adjust them at this time; other than that we didn't have any specific intentions regarding drone anoms) 2) No (see above) 4) (Skipped due to not meeting the criteria.) 5) Yes (it's "outstanding work" that needs doing, same as the missing drone plexes, and for the same reason: the drone loot structure makes this kind of work significantly less straightforward than it is for the other factions) 6) No (until work is actually committed to a sprint we're not in a position to give useful timelines for stuff at this level of detail)
The underlying problem here is that we can't really balance drones while they're still dropping alloys, because the amount each drone is worth is inversely proportional to the number of drones being killed. Every extra unit of zydrine coming out of the drone regions lowers the price of zydrine a little further. We could double the drop rate on all sites and all this would achieve is to keep drone region income about the same while also further marginalizing mining. Similarly, I'd not be totally surprised if this "nerf" corrects itself to a large degree over time, as the decreased supply (if it's as big a deal as it's being made out to be) allows mineral prices to rise.
Thanks for the response Grayscale o7 and I hope you're still also watching the "Drone regions improvement suggestion" thread in the russian forums, a lot of the convo has moved over there. |
Mr Fondo
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:41:00 -
[343] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Steele Balz wrote:Silent nerf to the drones again !!! YO if you want to nerf drones so much why not start by taking them out of all regions but the drone regions , Lets face it they are drones they belong in the drone regions why give them to every tom **** and harry in evry region of the game . you want to balance then anoms ha what a joke you make me laugh . Drones and what they are worth is dictated by the mineral market good luck with that sparky.
whats up with the Hordes now the spawn comes in waves like some noob got popped and whined til some dev somewhere had enough , Tell me was it a goon
1) yay for silent nerfs 2)are you ever going to seriously consider fixing the drone regions to bring it up to speed with all other regions because the isk per hour suck unlike every other region 2 a) cosmic sigs have been broken since drones were intro'd (yay for crapy drone bpc) 3) escalations welp already nerfed the S@%t out of them already (thankyousirmayihaveanother) 4) stop nerfing drones and fix drone regions, try harder this time
The change was to fix a Bug (borderline exploit per CCP Greyscale) where shooting certain structures would spawn the waves before they were supposed to. 1. Not silent. CCP Greyscale mentioned it in here, and it was on SISI well before patch day. 2. Before the change (which was classed as a bugfix) Drone hubs were possibly the best isk/hr anomalies availiable 3. Dunno anything about this 4. Half agreed. Drone Poo needs to go in order to allow mining to be a viable profession in Eve.
A bug they didnt fix for years.... its there own fault people are so mad about fixing it now... letting it go on for years then saying oh it was a bug.. sorry this is how its suppose to be now.. k thx |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
128
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 20:10:00 -
[344] - Quote
Hey Greyscale can you or Turbefield or whoever look up and post how many sov improvements upgrades there are running in nullsec that are not sanctun anoms or grav belts (ie: radar generators, wh spawners)? Because I'm pretty sure that's a problem right there. |
Mr Fondo
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 14:27:00 -
[345] - Quote
RaZor Flash wrote:BeanBagKing wrote:RaZor Flash wrote: I really dont get it, they are upset because the ships come in waves instead of all at once? Is it the same number of ships?
If it is, the only thing I can think of why are they upset is because they sit in a thanatos and can lock everything up and just pew pew. Waves are amazing for pretty much everything else.
RaZor, for many, yes, this is what they are voicing if you asked them why they are upset. However, there are underlying reasons about why it makes them that upset. I wrote up quite a long report on exactly what difference this has made to running hordes. I've tried to make it understandable to anyone that doesn't live in drone regions. I realize it's long, but please read it if you want to know exactly what the issue is. http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdf I read it and I get your point. I will try to paraphrase to make sure I understand. Essentially, Drone regions are terrible but you were able to warp in with a thanatos cherry pick the BS , loot salvage then move on to the next one? It seems that they really nerfed the thanatos pilots of the drone lands, the only viable way to make decent isk/hour there. Since the drone regions are quiet, people could take advantage of that quietness and use their carriers without much fear and make the region profitable by ratting in carriers without too much fear, or am I mistaken? I'm just terrified cause you keep comparing drone regions to other 0.0 anomalies, when we should compare everything to high sec incursions. What you should do is go to high sec, run incusions, then make a nice little chart/paragraph of how ******** incursions are :P.
The fact that drone regions are quite is irrelevant that has nothing to do with anything.. thats players fault. Doing anything because of this would be one more step to ruining the sandbox that is EVE. |
Mr Fondo
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 14:39:00 -
[346] - Quote
oh and a fact everyone is forgetting is drone regions isk changes constantly and honestly is getting lower and lower as mineral prices drop. Zydrine used to be are biggest source of income but now its hit rock bottom.. i remember cpl years ago it was selling for 3x it is now.. Now its probably trit that gives us the most bang for are buck. Zydrine and other high end minerals are going to continue to go down and down.. If your keeping alloys you need to increase the ammount of high end minerals things need to build or soon youll find zydrine at 500isk/ and mega at 1200. |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
46
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 15:45:00 -
[347] - Quote
As a point of order, the changes to the drones sites had nothing to do with the the changes to the anomilies, which is in fact the subject of this thread. As such the thread is by this stage waaaaay off topic.
Could the drone region residents go somewhere else and make a seperate thread about their concerns, and could Greyscale come back here and give us a timeline on when he is going to redo the anomilies. Again.
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
WuMaTih
League of Gentlemen Intrepid Crossing
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 15:48:00 -
[348] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:As a point of order, the changes to the drones sites had nothing to do with the the changes to the anomilies, which is in fact the subject of this thread. As such the thread is by this stage waaaaay off topic.
Could the drone region residents go somewhere else and make a seperate thread about their concerns, and could Greyscale come back here and give us a timeline on when he is going to redo the anomilies. Again.
uhh drone hordes are anoms and they did a significant change to the way they work.. This is exactly where this should be discussed... |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
46
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 16:16:00 -
[349] - Quote
WuMaTih wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:As a point of order, the changes to the drones sites had nothing to do with the the changes to the anomilies, which is in fact the subject of this thread. As such the thread is by this stage waaaaay off topic.
Could the drone region residents go somewhere else and make a seperate thread about their concerns, and could Greyscale come back here and give us a timeline on when he is going to redo the anomilies. Again.
uhh drone hordes are anoms and they did a significant change to the way they work.. This is exactly where this should be discussed...
No, they didn't change anything, just fixed a bug.
CCP Greyscale wrote:BigCountry wrote:Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ... So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK.. Drone region anomalies weren't touched as part of this specific project - we're just balancing on bounty payout this time around and as drones don't have a bounty, we still don't have the tools to properly assess their worth. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
380
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 07:33:00 -
[350] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:No, they didn't change anything, just fixed a bug.
A bug/fix that has caused many people who were forced to spend more isk and time on getting the minerals/items/isk to PVP with, to now spend far longer mining, running hordes etc to gain ISK/materials to PVP The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
|
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
46
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 12:24:00 -
[351] - Quote
Headerman wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:No, they didn't change anything, just fixed a bug. A bug/fix that has caused many people who were forced to spend more isk and time on getting the minerals/items/isk to PVP with, to now spend far longer mining, running hordes etc to gain ISK/materials to PVP
I didn't you can't talk about it, just that this thread was not the place. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 22:14:00 -
[352] - Quote
What I don't understand is, why not get rid of the alloys that the drones drop and replace them with regular loot and bounty like on other rats. Would make it much easier to get them inline with the other anoms and a chance to get some faction loot drops.
Plus with the reduction in minerals hitting the market cause of no alloys, will help out mineral prices and more ISK for legit miners. To me, the alloys is helping to make more problems then they solve and to get rid of them for regular bounties would help out the game in various ways. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 00:56:00 -
[353] - Quote
Sarrgon wrote: What I don't understand is, why not get rid of the alloys that the drones drop and replace them with regular loot and bounty like on other rats. Would make it much easier to get them inline with the other anoms and a chance to get some faction loot drops.
Plus with the reduction in minerals hitting the market cause of no alloys, will help out mineral prices and more ISK for legit miners. To me, the alloys is helping to make more problems then they solve and to get rid of them for regular bounties would help out the game in various ways. The problem is that this would cause even MORE of an isk faucet then ratting is now. It also removes some of the unique aspects of 0.0
I wonder if there is some other way to differentiate the drone regions from the rest of Eve |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
107
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 14:15:00 -
[354] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Sarrgon wrote: What I don't understand is, why not get rid of the alloys that the drones drop and replace them with regular loot and bounty like on other rats. Would make it much easier to get them inline with the other anoms and a chance to get some faction loot drops.
Plus with the reduction in minerals hitting the market cause of no alloys, will help out mineral prices and more ISK for legit miners. To me, the alloys is helping to make more problems then they solve and to get rid of them for regular bounties would help out the game in various ways. The problem is that this would cause even MORE of an isk faucet then ratting is now. It also removes some of the unique aspects of 0.0 I wonder if there is some other way to differentiate the drone regions from the rest of Eve
I'll take isk faucet and less unique 0.0 over the continued f*cking over of miners any day.
Drone poo has killed mining. Changing drone poo into *anything* else would be an improvement as far as keeping the various individual streams of income in 0.0 relatively balanced.
Hell, make them drop tags that concord buys. Will kill the regions, but mining needs to matter in 0.0 again. |
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 21:28:00 -
[355] - Quote
Don't see how it would really create a ISK faucet, just replacing how people in drone regions gets paid. From refining the alloys into minerals then selling the minerals or making and selling ships etc they make out of them. Then they would just get the ISK directly.
But also would take a lot of minerals off of the market, help raise the mineral prices so the miners can make more of a decent living again. To me, its a win win situation. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
116
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 23:27:00 -
[356] - Quote
Sarrgon wrote: Don't see how it would really create a ISK faucet, just replacing how people in drone regions gets paid. From refining the alloys into minerals then selling the minerals or making and selling ships etc they make out of them. Then they would just get the ISK directly.
But also would take a lot of minerals off of the market, help raise the mineral prices so the miners can make more of a decent living again. To me, its a win win situation.
Isk faucets are anytime isk comes from nowhere. Bounties are one of the biggest.
Minerals are in no way an Isk faucet. Drone region people get raw materials, other people give them Isk in exchange. Not an Isk Faucet.
All that said, I prefer Isk faucet over continuing screwing miners with their pants on. |
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 02:42:00 -
[357] - Quote
Could go back and forth on if it is a ISK faucet or not. But think most agree that the game would be much better off if they got rid of the Drone Crystals. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
118
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 02:49:00 -
[358] - Quote
Sarrgon wrote: Could go back and forth on if it is a ISK faucet or not. But think most agree that the game would be much better off if they got rid of the Drone Crystals.
The definition of Isk Faucet is the addition of ISK into the economy. The only way that happens is when NPCs give isk to Capsuleers. Drone Poop can never do that. |
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 04:31:00 -
[359] - Quote
But also could say, the alloys that drones drop is as good as ISK and much of it gets sold directly for ISK, gets traded as if ISK or gets made into ships and other goods to be sold for ISK. IT's like saying mining gold IRL doesn't get you money, only the minting press does. But I guess it all depends on how you look at it. But then why do so many say drone lands are such a ISK faucet if it isn't? |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
133
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 06:28:00 -
[360] - Quote
Sarrgon wrote: But also could say, the alloys that drones drop is as good as ISK and much of it gets sold directly for ISK, gets traded as if ISK or gets made into ships and other goods to be sold for ISK. IT's like saying mining gold IRL doesn't get you money, only the minting press does. But I guess it all depends on how you look at it. But then why do so many say drone lands are such a ISK faucet if it isn't?
Income != Isk Faucet.
Income deals with a players wallet, to which drone poo (when sold) adds isk. That isk is not new isk, it's already circulating.
Isk faucets deal with the Isk supply (the total of all the isk in all the wallets): Everytime you get a bounty, there is more isk in the game than there was before that act.
Drone lands are a massive Income source. The income you can make there is likely higher than any other ratting area (not counting xport costs). They are not an Isk faucet, as they bring no Isk into the game. They are a material faucet instead, which is what kills miners. |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
148
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 18:46:00 -
[361] - Quote
The problem with drone rats is that the reward system was designed around the idea that a well-built ratting battleship would earn as much minerals as a well-built Hulk. As capital ship ratting became more prevalent and super-ratting ships like Marauders and PVE T3s were introduced, all other mining ships were rendered obsolete and inferior in the mineral market. However, since the drone poo is pegged to the economy and not an ISK faucet, drone ratting earns less and less, ironically forcing the high-level ratters to rat more and more just to keep their income stable in an endless loop of mineral devaluation, worsening the problem. Combined with the ease of transport of compressed mins + JBs and JFs and this problem affects everyone in EVE on one level or another. |
Arnaz Finx
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 14:17:00 -
[362] - Quote
Any updates at all CCP?
Or are we stuck the way they are now. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1159
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 15:47:00 -
[363] - Quote
Arnaz Finx wrote:Any updates at all CCP?
Or are we stuck the way they are now.
Most everyone I know has adapted to the new anoms. People in normal BSes tend to run rally points and such (making the same or better isk than they used to in forsaken hubs), people in fancier getups tend to run Forsaken or Forlorn Hubs, making as much (or more) as they did in Sanctums. Sanctums are pretty much only worthwhile if you value good escalations.
CCP might alter them, or those plans could go the way of FW. At this point, we've adapted (coupla people lost their boats, but they got reimbursed). |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 16:58:00 -
[364] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Arnaz Finx wrote:Any updates at all CCP?
Or are we stuck the way they are now. Most everyone I know has adapted to the new anoms. People in normal BSes tend to run rally points and such (making the same or better isk than they used to in forsaken hubs), people in fancier getups tend to run Forsaken or Forlorn Hubs, making as much (or more) as they did in Sanctums. Sanctums are pretty much only worthwhile if you value good escalations. CCP might alter them, or those plans could go the way of FW. At this point, we've adapted (coupla people lost their boats, but they got reimbursed).
That last part: Really? I wonder if I could get reimbursed for my 3 billion ISK Tengu I lost saving a Moros fom Sleepers in a C6 |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1162
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 20:49:00 -
[365] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:
That last part: Really? I wonder if I could get reimbursed for my 3 billion ISK Tengu I lost saving a Moros fom Sleepers in a C6
They got reimbursed because CCP drastically and relatively quietly increased the incoming DPS when they tried to increase the income produced. I don't know if CCP altered WH sites at the same time (Hadn't heard anything about that kind of change).
CCP also said that the increased incoming DPS was a mistake on their part.
If a change in the sites and a CCP admitted mistake led you to lose your Tengu, you probably could get it reimbursed(minus whatever dropped in your wreck, AFAIK they never reimburse that stuff). |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
602
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 09:07:00 -
[366] - Quote
So whats going on with the drone anoms?
Has there been any news regarding the switch to a bounty system? Or any news regarding new faction loot from them? The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Casius Omega
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 15:37:00 -
[367] - Quote
Headerman wrote:So whats going on with the drone anoms?
Has there been any news regarding the switch to a bounty system? Or any news regarding new faction loot from them?
^^^^^ This |
Ulster Assasin
ULSTER INC.
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 18:55:00 -
[368] - Quote
PLease bring in bounty's to the drone regions, hordes are terrible now. |
RaZor Flash
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
13
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 04:53:00 -
[369] - Quote
So, I'm loving the new changes on the most recent patch, win win win. |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 .. 13 :: [one page] |