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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
20
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Posted - 2014.03.25 16:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it. |
RomeStar
Empire Investments Logistics
416
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Posted - 2014.03.25 16:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Please move on folks nothing to see here people nothing to see....... Signatured removed, CCP Phantom |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
2802
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
RomeStar wrote:Please move on folks nothing to see here people nothing to see....... I see. Another of those threads where the original post is missing. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Talon Kane
Commando Muad'Dib
17
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Posted - 2014.03.25 16:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
*Gathers around a dead thread like a fly gathers around dead meat* -½ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain -+. |
Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
209
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Posted - 2014.03.25 16:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Someone lost a battleship to frigate can flipper? "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |
Samwise Everquest
The Scope Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2014.03.25 16:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
You realize smaller weapons do less damage than bigger weapons?
You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
That is the balance you are seeking. Whether I slap a girly man or a obese neckbeard, they will receive the same force from my hand (damage) but because of their size (EPH,) it will effect them differently. |
Doireen Kaundur
373
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Posted - 2014.03.25 16:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Eve has combat?
I thought it was just all carebears and ganking and tears. Minimizing the cost of replacing implants.
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Sevendeadly Sins
Meatshield Bastards The Bastards.
104
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Posted - 2014.03.25 17:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:Eve has combat?
I thought it was just all carebears and ganking and tears. No, eve doesn't have any combat.
The op was just high on mindflood, nothing to see here.
http://www.zombo.com |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
20
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Posted - 2014.03.25 17:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce.....
You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed...
But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate.
Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
|
Karen Avioras
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
321
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:When in fact it can't be destroyed...
Not with that attitude |
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The Complainitor Listen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.
It's CCP dude, what do you expect, rocket scientists ? |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
453
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.
Ya that is not how things work. Damage inflicted is based on the make up of the charge or crystal being used. If you want to adjust damage done than argue about the damage on charges. Guns are simply the delivery method of the charge. They have inherent damage mods, but they are not the device dealing the damage, only the means of delivering the charge from point A to point B.
|
Hal Morsh
The Witch's Hammer
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
You DO realize the gun barrels on frigates are about the size of a person right? you can obviously tank a smaller ship much easier, but the fact is a smaller ship can still chip away at a bigger ship. The fact that a bigger ship can't hit a smaller ship makes sense anyways without the right equipment. I enjoy a good session of mining. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2360
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote: A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
Considering those measurements are literally in units of distance, its much more appropriate to make comparisons to actual spherical objects, in which case it makes perfect sense. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
272
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
So what you are saying is that it makes sense that a battleship has a hard time shooting a frigate but can still eventually win, but it doesn't make sense that the frigate can eventually chip away at a battleship and win? I see kinda what you are getting at, but it wouldn't work like that in something like Eve because then what reason would anyone in their right mind fly anything smaller than the largest ship they can fly?
In a battleship, you can still kill a frig, though you miss a lot. In a frig, you can still kill a battleship, though it takes a while.
Without that last bit, the balance you are seeking becomes a lack thereof, as each progression of ship size obsoletes any instance of the previous size. With the way it works now, even a frigate still has use and lethality in a universe with battleships. The real world and Eve operate with a separate set of parameters and rules...this is both intentional and necessary. Eve is not the only game that has to be set up like this...why would I waste resources on riflemen in a command and conquer game if they can't even put a dent in a tank. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
22
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Posted - 2014.03.25 17:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Ya that is not how things work. Damage inflicted is based on the make up of the charge or crystal being used. If you want to adjust damage done than argue about the damage on charges.
It's not about damage types and damage resistances. It's about the nominal damage done based on weapon signature and targets signature.
- big weapon signature shooting at small targets signature. Small change to hit to none and very bad damage when it hits. - small weapon signature shooting at big targets signature. Always always hit and always does 100% damage. That's wrong.
How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
The Complainitor Listen wrote: It's CCP dude, what do you expect, rocket scientists ?
Well I don't expect some complex "rock scissors paper" combat system but at least a 2 way system. Big ship balance to small ship, small ship balance to big ship. What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back?
I don't expect some complex combat system with class balance like in World of Warcraft where they balance the combat based on 4-5 combat elements. Even more simple to understand. You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?
Just make small ship to big ship balance and the other way around. Who knows maybe the frigate players might try some bigger ships...
For now Eve combat is small billiard balls shooting at big billiard balls and that's about it...
|
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2365
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote: How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
Are you saying that in real life people tend to miss the stationary wall with their wild swings of the bat?
Or are you saying battleships need some kind of "wall"-like resistance to damage, above and beyond their massive HP ? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Nalia White
Tencus
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:So what you are saying is that it makes sense that a battleship has a hard time shooting a frigate but can still eventually win, but it doesn't make sense that the frigate can eventually chip away at a battleship and win? I see kinda what you are getting at, but it wouldn't work like that in something like Eve because then what reason would anyone in their right mind fly anything smaller than the largest ship they can fly?
In a battleship, you can still kill a frig, though you miss a lot. In a frig, you can still kill a battleship, though it takes a while.
Without that last bit, the balance you are seeking becomes a lack thereof, as each progression of ship size obsoletes any instance of the previous size. With the way it works now, even a frigate still has use and lethality in a universe with battleships. The real world and Eve operate with a separate set of parameters and rules...this is both intentional and necessary. Eve is not the only game that has to be set up like this...why would I waste resources on riflemen in a command and conquer game if they can't even put a dent in a tank.
power plant, ore reffinery, barracks, Vehicle Factory --> tanks. why the **** would you build infantry in a C&C game? ^^
ontopic: OP definitely lost his battleship to a frigate :) |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1140
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it. just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating. |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1140
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce..... You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed... But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate. Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man.... i assume when your shooting this tank, metal comes into contact with metal, yes? then it can be destroyed, you just need ALOT OF AMMO and time, because you have to chew through the armor bit by bit.
now if you using something like low powered handgun with 9mm rounds, no youll never destroy, and thats akin to a SINGLE frigate shooting at a battlesip with meta 0 guns, it cant break the passive shield regen of the battleship. |
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Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
471
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Well I don't expect some complex "rock scissors paper" combat system but at least a 2 way system. Big ship balance to small ship, small ship balance to big ship. What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back?
I don't expect some complex combat system with class balance like in World of Warcraft where they balance the combat based on 4-5 combat elements. Even more simple to understand. You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?
Just make small ship to big ship balance and the other way around. Who knows maybe the frigate players might try some bigger ships...
For now Eve combat is small billiard balls shooting at big billiard balls and that's about it...
Never heard of Mobile Depots, targeting mods or anti-frigate weapons?
The battleship can easily refit to spec agaianst frigates, the frigate has a hard time refitting to do extra damage against the battleship. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2366
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back? Walls don't fight back either. Buff walls.
Quote:You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?
You're suggesting that frigates always win vs battleships, which is nonsense. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
456
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Ya that is not how things work. Damage inflicted is based on the make up of the charge or crystal being used. If you want to adjust damage done than argue about the damage on charges.
It's not about damage types and damage resistances. It's about the nominal damage done based on weapon signature and targets signature. - big weapon signature shooting at small targets signature. Small change to hit to none and very bad damage when it hits. - small weapon signature shooting at big targets signature. Always always hit and always does 100% damage. That's wrong. How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
A small weapon tracking a larger object is always going to have a higher potential to hit, there is nothing wrong with that it is basic physics.
As for application If you took a 5cm bouncy ball and threw it at a 10m Squared brick wall the entire bouncy ball has a very high chance to hit the wall with its full capacity, even if your aim is not perfect and you don't hit center mass.
If you then took that 10m wall and threw it at the bouncy ball only 5cm of that wall is going to make contact. It doesn't matter that the wall is 10m square the target is only 5cm and thus only 5cm of that wall is going to come into contact.
Im not sure what is so hard to comprehend.
If I fire a 40m shell at a 400m target all 40m's of that shell can contact. If I fire a 400m shell at a 40m target only 40m of that 400m shell can make contact. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Stealth bombers. Frigate size ships with big guns...
The problem is very simple..
-big weapons vs small targets have drawback to the point they aren't usable. Tracking speed and bad hits if there are any hits. This part of the mechanic is ok. -small weapons vs big targets, no drawbacks. Full damage, always hits.
Ok, the dps is small but that's why they are small weapons on small cheap ships. There is no difference in dps between hitting a medium size ships or a large size ship
That's what I'm saying, if you use a weapon against the wrong target there should be a drawback, not just for big weapon vs small target but for small weapon vs big targets. Without this the balance only goes one way. |
Ruvin Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
You wont get down a wall with a baseball bat , but be sure with a small hammer you will ,takes a while but doable . Also a rifleman is bad example , but a light fast vehicle can get a tank down even if he needs some time shooting at it . |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
222
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:51:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2371
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE.
There are no direct analogues in Eve (as in actual small guns), but Eve battleships do have many weapons systems and tactics to combat (and kill) small ships, and I'm not talking about comedy fits. The decision to not give battleships a separate line of point defense turrets is part of the design, and the lack of such an analogous system in-game is not in and of itself a flaw or problem, but this is typically the best that people can come up with when futilely advocating for such a change.
Furthermore, if a battleship did decide to shoot such a small craft with its main gun, it would score catastrophic damage with a lucky or well-aimed hit. Its much the same in Eve. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
277
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
As has been addressed already, your topic is a fail of logic.
Yes a small machine gun can take out a tank, but it will take a while and use a lot of ammo. A hand gun could also in theory take out a tank, but usually the tank will just run your ass over before you can do any real damage. i.e. and ibis shooting a titan. Eventually the ibis can kill a titan, if it doesn't regenerate, but the titan just needs one hit which it will get eventually and the ibis dies.
Given time, and unlimited ammo/energy you can pretty much destroy anything.
basicly what you are describing is a big object, lets go with a huge tank, attempting to fire its single cannon at an object running around it faster then the gunner can swing the gun around. As long as the object keeps moving in such a way as the gunner can't predict where its going, the gun will miss. But eventually, the object will screw up and get blown to bits.
Now add that both are computer controlled, the smaller object will mose too fast for the large one to hit dead on, but it will occationally nick it with its ammo.
Now lets flip it. You as the smaller object firing say a sub machine gun at the tank will almost always hit it, no matter how fast you run around it. why? because it has a huge area to hit. and its moving way slower then you are. and you can easily predict where you will hit it.
Now computer control and it will be nearly impossible for you to miss. And your weapon will dish out the same ammout of damnage if you keep in range, and will RARELY miss.
EvE combat works fine when compaired to real world physics. Small weapons and boats disable or blow up large ones often, its just that if they screw up.. blam. |
Victor Andall
Complexes and Abaddons
296
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?
Andall Combat Tournaments - on hiatus. Contact for more information. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
222
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
Batelle wrote:and I'm not talking about comedy fits.
Lol, the first BC fit I ever made as a noob was with half my high slots having small guns to shoot frigs...
I agree there are some tools at a battleship's disposal, but they seem woefully inadequate. They are obviously contrived for "balance" and not reflexive of sound military doctrine. I know most people hate the idea, but I think realism can go a long way to improving a space game. |
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