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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Tipsy Titteron
Do You Even Irony Broew
8
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Posted - 2014.03.25 19:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
The best thing about the OPs many flaws in his logic is that he compares a small hightech interstellar warship and a big hightech interstellar warship to being a wooden raft with small guns against aircraft carriers with missiles.
It would be more like having a frigate class warship with smaller cannons and a smaller load of missiles against an aircraft carrier that has the ability to bomb the **** out of the frigate.
The frigate might be smaller, less sturdy, etc, but it can still punch a hole into the aircraft carrier, because, its guns are powerfull. Now that we've all agreed the OP made a mistake and posted his splurg where it didnt belong, lets let the thread die. |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
569
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:23:00 -
[32] - Quote
You are trying to apply real world logic to science fiction, this never ends well.
Yes in the real world, a zodiac with a small machine gun could probably never, ever sink an aircraft carrier. However from a gameplay mechanics standpoint making ships IMMUNE TO PVP is never a good thing. So battleships should just be impervious to damage from anything smaller than what.. a cruiser?
This maybe satisfies your 'desire for realism' but does not make gameplay 'more fun' .. it makes it more boring for both parties, since where the was an amazing battle to be had before (say between a battleship and a gang of 3-4 players) there is now a whole lot of NOTHING since they will just ignore each other.
It's like people who complain that the planets don't orbit, or that their ships steer like a boat. Nope, it's not realistic but it is the way EVE works. Making the planets spin around does not directly create more 'fun' for anybody or create any new gameplay.
EVE is not meant to be a real world physics simulator, it is fantasy/sf with its own fantasy/sf physics and reality.
Did you think Star Wars sucked because laser swords are make believe as well? |
Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
93
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Posted - 2014.03.25 19:31:00 -
[33] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:As has been addressed already, your topic is a fail of logic.
Given time, and unlimited ammo/energy you can pretty much destroy anything.
only in games.
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
28
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Posted - 2014.03.25 19:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Victor Andall wrote:TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better.
Yea, there was a time everyone believed the Earth was flat. You could even fall of the edge if you walk to far. Let's not think about the game, let's pretend everything is fine. Especially if the change means you have to get a bigger ship and you don't know how to make money...
Eve might be different from other games but the mindless fanboyz are all the same, "the game is perfect". Next major patch they change it, oh, wait then it had to be broken.
I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet because reducing the effectiveness of smaller weapons against bigger targets would mean pvp needs bigger ships and more of the specialized small ships to counter the big ones like some bigger stealth bombers.
Oh, well, CCP does what they can, like buffing mining by nerfing refining.... |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
569
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Posted - 2014.03.25 19:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
The thing is you are arguing for realism, not balance.
Realism =/= balance. |
Victor Andall
Complexes and Abaddons
299
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Posted - 2014.03.25 19:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Victor Andall wrote:TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better. Yea, there was a time everyone believed the Earth was flat. You could even fall of the edge if you walk to far. Let's not think about the game, let's pretend everything is fine.
Sorry, I didn't realize it was you, Mr. Galilei. My apologies. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?
Andall Combat Tournaments - on hiatus. Contact for more information. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20259
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:54:00 -
[37] - Quote
*cough* GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
184
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Posted - 2014.03.25 19:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
If you watch any of the Star-Trek series, the Enterprise also had a hard time hitting smaller ships |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
260
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 20:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.
Or you could say i could unload my pistol into that warehouse over there, if i missed i'd shoot myself tbh. then taking your 150mm cannon and aiming for an ant on the hill over there.
Make sense?
Besides the smaller weapons have limitations on range and raw dps. and seriously if you can bring 80 guys to take on a battleships with noobshiops (bestfleetcomp) you deserve to win. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
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Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
28
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Posted - 2014.03.25 21:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jill Chastot wrote: Or you could say i could unload my pistol into that warehouse over there, if i missed i'd shoot myself tbh. then taking your 150mm cannon and aiming for an ant on the hill over there.
Make sense?
It's not about missing the warehouse, it's about demolishing the building. How long do you think you have to shoot at a building with a pistol to bring it down? You're just trying to provide a real world example for some broken mechanic from Eve. You can't do that, it doesn't exist.
Victor Andall wrote: Sorry, I didn't realize it was you, Mr. Galilei. My apologies.
And this is what a 10 year old kid answers when he doesn't understand what he reads. Just ask again if you don't understand, maybe I can help you. If it's too hard you can try again later. |
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Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
857
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 22:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
Nalia White wrote:
power plant, ore reffinery, barracks, Vehicle Factory --> tanks. why the **** would you build infantry in a C&C game? ^^
ontopic: OP definitely lost his battleship to a frigate :)
If Unsuccessful at Everything has taught us anything it is the correct response to this occurence and this OP
LOL.
PS OP not every ship in game is balanced for 1v1 because this is a fleet based game. Every ship and every fleet has an engagement envelope. Fighting things outside this envelope is bad. For example a Pilgrim will quickly turn off the weapons and tank of a lazor boat but will likely die easily to an ASB rocket Hawk a neither the tank nor weapons of the hawk require cap. There is no way to balance the hundreds of ships so they all have a chance against any other ship and the existance of hard counters is part of the metagame and fleet PVP. What you are asking for is not even desirable even if it were possible. Every ship can be killed solo by something and so whatever killed you easily can easily be killed by other ships. Generally battleships are poor at solo pvp and are indeed designed to be so. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
31
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Posted - 2014.03.25 22:12:00 -
[42] - Quote
In our age, the modern tank guns (like the Rheinmetall L55 120mm on the M1A1 Abrams, Type 90, Leopard 2) could penetrate 500-800 mm steel armor depend on the loaded shell. You can imagine what could do a gun with such or even bigger caliber (in EVE small hybrids have 75-150 mm, small projectiles 125-280 mm) in space 20k years in the future. And dont even mention the laser turrets, or blasters: "Antimatter Charge S Antimatter Charge S Consists of two components: a shell of titanium and a core of antimatter atoms suspended in plasma state. Railguns launch the shell directly, while particle blasters pump the plasma into a cyclotron and process the plasma into a bolt that is then fired."
So you're wrong, small gun can do its damage on bigger ships and slowly kill it, if big ship not tanked properly. |
ashley Eoner
300
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:So what you are saying is that it makes sense that a battleship has a hard time shooting a frigate but can still eventually win, but it doesn't make sense that the frigate can eventually chip away at a battleship and win? I see kinda what you are getting at, but it wouldn't work like that in something like Eve because then what reason would anyone in their right mind fly anything smaller than the largest ship they can fly?
In a battleship, you can still kill a frig, though you miss a lot. In a frig, you can still kill a battleship, though it takes a while.
Without that last bit, the balance you are seeking becomes a lack thereof, as each progression of ship size obsoletes any instance of the previous size. With the way it works now, even a frigate still has use and lethality in a universe with battleships. The real world and Eve operate with a separate set of parameters and rules...this is both intentional and necessary. Eve is not the only game that has to be set up like this...why would I waste resources on riflemen in a command and conquer game if they can't even put a dent in a tank. Taffy 3. Look it up. A handful of tincan destroyers and destroyer escorts punched the Japanese center fleet so hard that they (including the might Yamato) retreated..
Quote: After the battle, Samuel B. Roberts received the nickname "the destroyer escort that fought like a battleship." A destroyer escort was basically one step away from a rowboat..
EDIT :
Last stand of the tin can sailors is an AMAZING book about the encounter and I highly recommend it. |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2943
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 02:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
OP posted some advice in another thread, that the best way to move 25bil+ in blueprints was in a shuttle, because they warp [gate] cloaked and their signature means nothing can hit them anyway.
You chaps are on page 3 of biting a troll, or someone who lost a faction battleship to someone in a T2 frigate after they tried to pay-to-win.
Also Tippia's link clearly refutes the notion that in "real world" logic a small craft can't destroy a larger one.
In Eve, your average frigate puts out more damage than a modern-day battleship. To suggest therefore that it can't damage a battleship is to show how absurd his strawman of handguns and wooden rafts is. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2943
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 02:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
Oh, and in Pearl Harbour loads of large ships got wrecked by small nimble craft called airplanes. It was total bullcrap man, they were like no where near the same size and yet they were hitting for full damage. But the ships couldn't properly shoot back because AA is horrendously inaccurate and has a wide AOE/sig radius.
CCP pls. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Divine Entervention
The Advent of Faith Against ALL Anomalies
236
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 03:12:00 -
[46] - Quote
Dude's on jetski's with armor piercing shoulder launched missles could sink an aircraft carrier Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
541
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 04:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
I don't know if this has been said already, and I'm not about to read through 3 pages of this, so I'll just drop my 2 ISK then leave.
Yes a battleship is going to hit a frig at full damage if the frig not moving and at the battleships optimal. The faster angular velocity and the farther the frig is away from the battleships optimal the less damage the battleship is going to do. Yes if you are in a T1 frig hull and T1 guns you aren't going to break the active tank of a battleship and are going to take forever to chew through the EHP of a passive tanked battleship. If you could then the frig would be massively OP compared to the battleship.
This isn't WoW, you aren't designed to be able to kill any ship out there. It normally takes a frig gang to take down a battleship, like it would realistically. No this game isn't designed around solo play, yes you are supposed to pick your fights, no you aren't going to win every fight, yes the guy who killed you was probably fit up for anti-frig (or you were going, for some reason, straight at him and/or were at near 0 velocity).
Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager |
Pew Terror
Green Associates TITANS.
172
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 04:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
Really hope OP is making a joke. If not i'd suggest every idea you ever have not being told anyone, written in a notebook then eaten by some animal. Then burn the poop. |
Bloodmyst Ranwar
War Toys Inc
45
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 05:00:00 -
[49] - Quote
@ OP, you don't really "PvP" much do you?
Because I don't think someone who PvP's often would agree with you (I'd be surprised if there were). |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
506
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 05:03:00 -
[50] - Quote
Unless you get more detailed damage models (currently all ships have a single big hit box that is teired into shield then armor then hull) this is just the way it will be. |
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Bruce Kemp
Suddenly taken over
106
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 05:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.
So you have been playing EVE for a month and you think you know it all.......RIGHT.
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1397
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 07:31:00 -
[52] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Tacomaco wrote: How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
Are you saying that in real life people tend to miss the stationary wall with their wild swings of the bat? i guess he mentions real life physics.... You know: using wooden arrows against iron armor and all this stuff.
In Eve online you just need more arrows. In RL you only will lose your arrows.
Or story about WW2 tanks when russians put bigger guns on T-34-85 to be able to hit german armored tanks The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Tanuki Kittybeta
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2014.03.26 07:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
@op
Lolwhat |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
33
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Posted - 2014.03.26 08:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote: Because I don't think someone who PvP's often would agree with you (I'd be surprised if there were).
Of course they wouldn't agree with me. This change means you'll have to match the enemy ISK for ISK because the smaller ships loose their effectiveness against bigger ones the same way the big ships are ineffective against small ones.
What frigate flying PvPers would want to do that? It means you would have to earn some ISK to get bigger ships if you want to kill bigger ships.
Anyone can risk some frigates and destroyers in PvP but are the frigate PvP-ers willing to take a Battlecruiser or Battleships for some pvp rounds? Of course not, it's risky
As I said I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet. This would lead to PvP with all ship classe, more expensive ships destroyed, more output from the industry, more Plex sold for ISK.... |
Space Wanderer
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 09:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE.
Drones anyone?
Seriously, all battleships I have used, even caldari, have drone bays and bandwidth large enough to hold at least a full flight of light drones, more often two or three flights.
Wha was the complaint, again? |
Qen Tye
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2014.03.26 10:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:Did you think Star Wars sucked because laser swords are make believe as well?
i lol'ed
/thread
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't |
Remiel Pollard
Stirling Iron Society A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2797
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 10:58:00 -
[57] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce..... You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed... But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate. Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
Oh noes! He made a valid argument! Quick, insult him by calling him a fanboy and insinuate that if he's got less isk than me he is inferior!
I've killed plenty of frigates with bigger ships. I've killed plenty of bigger ships with frigates. I frequently fight outgunned and outmatched. I win some, I lose some, I make some stupid mistakes and some ballsy moves that pay off but, I do quite well overall because I've learned how to fight. Actually, scratch that, I'm still learning. We all are, except for a few like you that think they already know it all. I laugh every time someone tries to make it sound like it's some paper-scissors-rock thing. Every time, because of the wide variety of possible variables in any given combat situation.
This is the bottom line. If you're struggling with a concept of PVP, you are doing something wrong. This is not a bad thing, it just means you have something to learn. Seeking some help from a PVP'er might pay off more than trying to 'convince' CCP that the mechanics are flawed and need to be changed. That'd be pretty much like trying to change the road rules because you failed your driver test. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Stirling Iron Society A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2797
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 11:01:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote: Because I don't think someone who PvP's often would agree with you (I'd be surprised if there were).
Of course they wouldn't agree with me. This change means you'll have to match the enemy ISK for ISK because the smaller ships loose their effectiveness against bigger ones the same way the big ships are ineffective against small ones. What frigate flying PvPers would want to do that? It means you would have to earn some ISK to get bigger ships if you want to kill bigger ships. Anyone can risk some frigates and destroyers in PvP but are the frigate PvP-ers willing to take a Battlecruiser or Battleships for some pvp rounds? Of course not, it's risky As I said I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet. This would lead to PvP with all ship classe, more expensive ships destroyed, more output from the industry, more Plex sold for ISK....
We don't agree with you because you're wrong. I've fought 'isk-to-isk' and won, I've fought above my weight and below it, and won. And lost. PVP isn't about the ship, it's about the pilot. That's why it's called PVP, not SVS. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Stirling Iron Society A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2799
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 11:06:00 -
[59] - Quote
This is a little bit against the rules, but this is my solo record. These are all kills and losses where the killing party has been purely solo. On there, you'll find mostly the Ishkur and other frigates because I ENJOY frigates, it's much more risky. Anyone with a little experience could pop my Ishkur with a bigger ship and the right setup. Hell, there's a myriad of different ways I have been killed - neuts, multiple webs, blobs, you name it it's killed me. Plenty of bigger ships dropping my like a stone. But, you'll also see me using the Nightmare, Gnosis, Cynabal, Machariel, Brutix Navy, and Cyclone to name a few.
Your argument is invalid because that killboard, and many others like it from other players, proves your assertions wrong. L2P. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Stu Pendisdick
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2014.03.26 11:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
ITT: Another poor soul who has confused Real Life with a game.
So sad.
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