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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1374
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:38:00 -
[241] - Quote
Alsyth wrote:- You just killed Falcon & Rook for med gang warfare, Mission Accomplished! Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4165
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:41:00 -
[242] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:ISHTAR
Rather than the blanket 10% tracking and optimal drone bonus, we split the bonus into two more specialized bonuses. One to Sentry drone optimal and tracking, and another on Heavy Drone speed and tracking.
So basically you took what should have been one bonus and spread it across two bonus slots. This really feels like a dual weapon bonus of some ship hulls that everyone mostly agreed is a terrible idea. This is not a good idea. . |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4165
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:43:00 -
[243] - Quote
Alsyth wrote:- You just killed Falcon & Rook for med gang warfare, any long range HAC will just **** them in every situation.
Pretty sure the Falcon & Rook have been killing solo/small and medium gang warfare for a long time now. . |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
865
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:45:00 -
[244] - Quote
Well they still don't really have a role, but these changes look a lot better and maybe will buff them enough that it won't matter. I certainly look forward to trying them all. Now go do command ships. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4166
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:46:00 -
[245] - Quote
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Morwen Lagann wrote: Deimos: I can't really express how glad I am to see the Deimos keeping its MWD cap penalty reduction bonus (the Thorax losing it as part of the first round of Tiericide made me very sad), though I will miss that utility highslot a bunch.
Would you still be sad if it were simply rolled into the hull?
That MWD capacitor bonus is a joke. Here is a 'compelling' bonus that is more useful:
+5% to hull resistances
Now it might actually be called a Deimos instead of a Diemost. Besides, any brawler Deimos will be using the 4th mid slot for a cap injector, which means the cap bonus from the MWD is pointless. . |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
758
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:48:00 -
[246] - Quote
Wish cerb would lose that kinetic damage bonus. If will prevent it from ever being a fleet ship. Enemy spies see you are using cerbs? Tank for kinetic and GG.
Also 15 m3 drone bay? Comon now, Either remove this and buff the missile a little bit more or make it 25 m3.
Waiting for HAC changes 3.0 :) |
Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
160
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:48:00 -
[247] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Morwen Lagann wrote: Deimos: I can't really express how glad I am to see the Deimos keeping its MWD cap penalty reduction bonus (the Thorax losing it as part of the first round of Tiericide made me very sad), though I will miss that utility highslot a bunch.
Would you still be sad if it were simply rolled into the hull? That MWD capacitor bonus is a joke. Here is a 'compelling' bonus that is more useful: +5% to hull resistances Now it might actually be called a Deimos instead of a Diemost. Besides, any brawler Deimos will be using the 4th mid slot for a cap injector, which means the cap bonus from the MWD is pointless.
I could really get behind the cap bonus if it kept its utility high |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
865
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:49:00 -
[248] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Rise wrote:ISHTAR
Rather than the blanket 10% tracking and optimal drone bonus, we split the bonus into two more specialized bonuses. One to Sentry drone optimal and tracking, and another on Heavy Drone speed and tracking. So basically you took what should have been one bonus and spread it across two bonus slots. This really feels like a dual weapon bonus of some ship hulls that everyone mostly agreed is a terrible idea. This is not a good idea.
2 bonuses twice tbh so its hard to compare. I mean a lot of turret users would just love optimal and tracking to count as one bonus :). Plus you cant swap your launchers for turrets mid fight, if you could the dual bonus would not be so bad in any case (think old phoon with 8 turrets, 8 launchers and the ability to swap between autos and cruise as need arose). As it is they have folded the old drone bonus into the hull so from that perspective ishtar is doing quite well.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
301
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:52:00 -
[249] - Quote
Lol again @ that damage graph
tier 3 BCs totally balanced guys, they still totally wreck hacs at all ranges, just very slightly less |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1204
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:53:00 -
[250] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Soon or Soon (TM)? Smile As always with Fozzie and I there is only Soon no Soon tm If you feel cheated because of the Ishtar "only having three bonuses" you may want to consider that actually it has 7 Sentry drone optimal Sentry drone tracking Heavy drone mwd speed Heavy drone tracking Drone damage Drone hitpoints Drone control range Counting bonuses is usually not an effective way to evaluate a ship, many of our bonuses are actually combinations of bonuses so it rarely makes sense. As the Dominix has proven, Drone tracking and range bonuses are extremely powerful and the combination of this with the rest of the improvements for HACs makes the Ishtar look very scary.
Thats like saying a hybrid gun bonus is really two bonuses because it applies to rails and blasters.. But i know what you're saying. also even with that bonus Ogres still get kited by BC's....
Ok now to the ships
Sacrilige
1. I liked the sac being able to run a Medium repper and staying cap stable.. I'm not sure if it still can.. If it can't i'm going to be sad.
2. I HATE HATE HATE that velocity bonus. Thats basically giving in to the people who want to be able to use the sac for the exact same thing as the damn zealot and thats silly aHac gangs. Should have given it a less blob friendly bonus like a application bonus to keep it different from the zealot.
Zealot I would go into my hate of counter productive bonuses Rof/capRe but the zealot is largely fine..
Cerberus
While my main complaint about the last version of the cerb was it being slow as balls. Which you seem to have addressed some.
The fact remains that flight time is a really **** bonus... Should give it an application bonus or just another velocity bonus instead.
Eagle
The eagle still has one problem.. The fact that it has a great tank while opperating at a range where almost no other ships that could be with it in a fleet will have a great tank. So it will be chilling with 60k ehp with lol sniper zealots with 10k ehp. Not really a critizizm of the ship it self i just don't see a great use for it. Also you know, it gets outperformed by tier 3's in almost every way.
Deimos
"We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change."
Rep bonus? Its the only traditional tanking bonus that isn't represented in the Hac's... i really hate how i feel like this Demios was balanced around the idea of using a shield tank........
Ishtar
Seems that my complaining about the bay bonus worked \o/
I think splitting up sentry drones and heavy drones into two different bonuses is extremelly silly.. Don't really see the point of that.
Vagabond
Why does the vagabond get five bonuses?
Thats basically what you have done with the speed thing.. The sac doesn't get all the awesome cap it used to have, why does the vagabond get to be 35% faster than any other HAC? Don't think its weak enough to warrant that....
Other then that i don't really care about it, i just think thats really stupid.
Munin
Pretty sure i will continue to not use the munin.. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
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Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company Confederated States of EVE
19
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:57:00 -
[251] - Quote
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Higgs Maken wrote: Wouldn't it be better if bonus were 7.5% bonus to drone tracking and optimal range for Gallente Cruiser and 7.5% bonus for drone speed and shield/armor resistance for Heavy Assault Cruiser.
The proposed Ishtar is already really good; doing this would just step on the Prophecy's toes, I think. For resistance I'm referring to resistance for drone and not ship. I just find most drone beside sentry pop easily. |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
35
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:59:00 -
[252] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:[quote=CCP Rise] Quote:Soon or Soon (TM)? Smile Rep bonus? Its the only traditional tanking bonus that isn't represented in the Hac's... i really hate how i feel like this Demios was balanced around the idea of using a shield tank........ ..
We are already looking at that, possible shield Kite, which makes me sad cause I shields and kiting, but while its better I still feel the EVI is as good in small gang Armor fleets. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1369
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:02:00 -
[253] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Ishtar: very good, I still have trouble with definition of this HAC using battleship guns (sentries/heavies) but looks sexy now
Heavy Drones (and by respect Sentries) have not been considered battleship drones since Red Moon Rising. The Vexor was overhauled then to use 3 heavy drones and not to use medium drones. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
163
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:02:00 -
[254] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Deacon Abox wrote: Sure, keep defending what you know you will be blobbing with next . . I suppose I would too in your position. But maybe step back and have some concern for the game as a whole? Is that too much to a . . nm Nah we'll be sticking with megathrons for the blobbing, as they've proven to be exceptionally effective. Perhaps some of the smaller combat groups will try out the Cerberus after the war, though they're also enamored with Eagles and especially 450 DPS 280k EHP rail Tengus. Your candid admission that you'd be incapable of objective analysis if you were on the CSM is nice (albeit completely irrelevant) but please don't project your own failings onto anyone else, least of all me. Thanks.
My failings? Have I run for CSM, or do I plan too? No. What I said was all about you. My alleged "failings" are irrelevant. Yours, unfortunately, are very relevant. No projection, just disgusted resignation to how you are viewing your role.
I'm sure all your former Drake blob corpies are salivating at the Cerb. As are you. It will be next, as you say along with other Caldari ships. This game is still too tilted in favor of ranged shield tanked blob sniping. Or in smaller scale fights shield tanked kiting setups. And of course with so many of your people invested in Caldari and missile skills already the new Cerb will be very attractive. The Mega will prove more expensive, less agile, more cap dependent, more subject to ewar, bombing, etc.
And oh look, a begrudging admission that the Cerb is possibly OP from CCP Rise now. But will anything be done about it. Very probably not. There will be no reduction in agility. The Sac will be an absolute brick in comparison. The unneeded drone bay will not be removed and given to the Eagle and Zealot. New Cerb blobs to replace the old Drake blobs of old, and Tengu blobs since those will eventually get trimmed.
But hey, that is the CSM. The game revolving around coalition monoculture ship blob tactics. And you are of course a part of that. I only hope the small gang FW pocket of relative freedom from that **** stays unharmed by your focus. In this environment the kiting Cerb will get lots of use, similar to the Hookbill. And counters (usually involving a second ship) will have to be developed. But it will be sad to see Cerbs being used the same ways and in the same numbers as Drakes used to be out there in Null. |
Alsyth
58
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:03:00 -
[255] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Alsyth wrote:- You just killed Falcon & Rook for med gang warfare, any long range HAC will just **** them in every situation. Pretty sure the Falcon & Rook have been killing solo/small and medium gang warfare for a long time now.
Except CCP is not killing them for so-called "solo" at all (when they are the most annoying).
Only for med gang (and big gangs too, ofc), where they are one of the only way for a med gang to break a heavy-logi comp, which has actually been killing small/med gang warfare in lowsec much more than ecm as far as I am concerned. By med gang I'm thinking 15+, where a Falcon is not that much of a hassle unless you rely on logistic too much.
And Blackbird is now plain better, fighting out of range of all but eagle & cerberus. Same problem as T1 ewar frigs being better than T2, I cannot understand why anyone would be happy about that.
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
374
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:06:00 -
[256] - Quote
Rise, any comment on the Ishtar's Heavy drone bonus and its effect on the Navy Vexor? 7.5%/lvl outclasses Navy Vexor's 5%/level, and it largely seems like the Ishtar, with its stronger sensor str, faster & better tracking drones, larger bay, T2 resists, etc. make it a clear winner. As soon as you step onto the battlefield, you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1369
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:10:00 -
[257] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Rise, any comment on the Ishtar's Heavy drone bonus and its effect on the Navy Vexor? 7.5%/lvl outclasses Navy Vexor's 5%/level, and it largely seems like the Ishtar, with its stronger sensor str, faster & better tracking drones, larger bay, T2 resists, etc. make it a clear winner. It is supposed to outclass the Vexor Navy Issue. The biggest problem with the Ishtar iteration 1 is it was completely out classed by the Vaxor Navy Issue.
Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Acidictadpole
Reikoku The Retirement Club
7
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:10:00 -
[258] - Quote
I don't think I really mind the MWD penalty, as I completely trust you when you say that it's more valuable than people might think. The problem I see is specifically with the Zealot, and this problem may affect the others.
It's powergrid is just too small to fit into the MWD style of play that you're almost enforcing with the role bonus. A downgrade of guns and removal of a 1600mm plate means it would probably fit with an 800mm or so, but it feels like the zealot should be using those upper tier (heavy pulse) of guns. And also a 1600mm plate, in order to maintain its durability.
17k EHP with the 800mmplate (and only the plate) is not enough to justify the near 175m pricetag that these sell for, when you can get 2k more than that with a harbinger without any fitting whatsoever.
This is my main problem with HACs right now, while they have a good sig, and high resists, they just don't manage to get enough EHP in comparison to something that's 1/5th of the price. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
69
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:10:00 -
[259] - Quote
Quote: when HACs were first introduced they were just cruisers on steroids. The defensive benefits of added resists were the most distinct 'specialization'
With this second pass you made the specialization a bit more distinct, next to the MWD Sig spec, thank you.
The Eagle, one of the worst HAC, finally Is getting more fitting room to be a medium range plinker, but still no drones eh
I can understand the Zealot not having drones, with it's 7 lows, but the Eagle is still underpowered when (frig/cruiser) combat gets closer. Eve rule no.1: The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg http://bit.ly/13cGuW0 |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
303
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:11:00 -
[260] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Rise, any comment on the Ishtar's Heavy drone bonus and its effect on the Navy Vexor? 7.5%/lvl outclasses Navy Vexor's 5%/level, and it largely seems like the Ishtar, with its stronger sensor str, faster & better tracking drones, larger bay, T2 resists, etc. make it a clear winner. It is supposed to outclass the Vexor Navy Issue. The biggest problem with the Ishtar iteration 1 is it was completely out classed by the Vaxor Navy Issue.
I think actually they're supposed to be different somehow. |
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Tuxedo Catfish
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:11:00 -
[261] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Morwen Lagann wrote: Deimos: I can't really express how glad I am to see the Deimos keeping its MWD cap penalty reduction bonus (the Thorax losing it as part of the first round of Tiericide made me very sad), though I will miss that utility highslot a bunch.
Would you still be sad if it were simply rolled into the hull? That MWD capacitor bonus is a joke. Here is a 'compelling' bonus that is more useful: +5% to hull resistances Now it might actually be called a Deimos instead of a Diemost. Besides, any brawler Deimos will be using the 4th mid slot for a cap injector, which means the cap bonus from the MWD is pointless.
I'm sure CCP would make it 4% to stay in line with the other armor resist bonuses, but the thought of a Gallente ship with a defensive bonus that's actually GOOD instead of this armor repair nonsense would be worth giving up my tracking bonus crusade.
EDIT: I misread hull for armor. Now I'm not really sure if I still agree. An armor bonus would be great, though! |
Darco Aldent
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:12:00 -
[262] - Quote
I think some people escpect too much from HACs, i even saw someone say : i would rather have a legion or a sleipneir then a... , i mean come on, its still a cruiser. and with all the bonuses i cannot belive how some people still say that T1 is stronger . Maybe Hacs were used allot before T3 ships and attack bc-s but now they are not, do not espect rise to buff them soo much so that everyone starts to fly them again like years ago in small gank. Time will tell. Great job Rise for listeting to people, i really like the buffs to fittings(cap recharge for mwd is great) and the mwd bonus |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
35
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:12:00 -
[263] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Rise, any comment on the Ishtar's Heavy drone bonus and its effect on the Navy Vexor? 7.5%/lvl outclasses Navy Vexor's 5%/level, and it largely seems like the Ishtar, with its stronger sensor str, faster & better tracking drones, larger bay, T2 resists, etc. make it a clear winner.
The VNI will still be used as a cheaper alt, for the Ishtar. I think that good place for, a happy medium between the T1 and the T2. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Stay Frosty.
79
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:13:00 -
[264] - Quote
What many people seem to want every time balance iterations come around is more buffs--better tracking, better range, particularly. But the power creep has gotten out of hand, especially when fighting up. Tracking, especially, has exploded since the T1 cruiser changes. Pretty soon what will be needed is a re-re-balance of frigates etc. IMO what's needed is a fundamental change to the way tracking works in this game. The ability to, say, spiral out of tracking of larger guns gets less viable every update. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
6815
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:15:00 -
[265] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Rise, any comment on the Ishtar's Heavy drone bonus and its effect on the Navy Vexor? 7.5%/lvl outclasses Navy Vexor's 5%/level, and it largely seems like the Ishtar, with its stronger sensor str, faster & better tracking drones, larger bay, T2 resists, etc. make it a clear winner.
Navy Vexor is faster and more agile, has extra tracking and speed for drones smaller than heavies, and is (depending on FW warzone status) cheaper. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1369
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:15:00 -
[266] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Rise, any comment on the Ishtar's Heavy drone bonus and its effect on the Navy Vexor? 7.5%/lvl outclasses Navy Vexor's 5%/level, and it largely seems like the Ishtar, with its stronger sensor str, faster & better tracking drones, larger bay, T2 resists, etc. make it a clear winner. It is supposed to outclass the Vexor Navy Issue. The biggest problem with the Ishtar iteration 1 is it was completely out classed by the Vaxor Navy Issue. I think actually they're supposed to be different somehow. The T2 are supposed to be more specialized than all other varations, CCP Fozzie decided to make navy cruisers more specialized than there T1 counterparts, while maintaining some flexability. So the Vexor Navy Issue gets 5% to all drone tracking and MWD velocity, the Ishtar gets 7.5% to heavy drone MWD velocity and tracking, also 7.5% to sentry optimal and tracking. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1206
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:16:00 -
[267] - Quote
Also would you stop balancing these things around the stupid ******* talos?
Thats one of the biggest issues with all of these changes, its being balanced around of class of ships thats ******* broken. The what those graphs show is basically how a talos murders the Hac at pretty much any range. Yes the sensor strength is awesome, yes the cap is nice but none of these long range hacs will be worth **** until the ABC's either get a reduction in speed or like a 25% tracking penalty. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
35
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:16:00 -
[268] - Quote
RISE how about a RoF bonus over the MWD one
EDIT
Or tell me why that was not a good call... Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1038
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:17:00 -
[269] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Wish cerb would lose that kinetic damage bonus. If will prevent it from ever being a fleet ship. Enemy spies see you are using cerbs? Tank for kinetic and GG.
Also 15 m3 drone bay? Comon now, Either remove this and buff the missile a little bit more or make it 25 m3.
Waiting for HAC changes 3.0 :)
lvl5 HAC = +25% dmg and this bonus was never a problem when using Drakes or Tengus, it will be less of one using RLs or HAMs, it is one with overnerf HM's still
15m3 drone bay = 3 ECM drones and unless your target is specifically ECCM fitted you should be able to put at least one jam cycle on it (training skills helps) I can barely see this new Cerb using something else than HAMs or RL's unless HM's get buff to new LR med weapons level. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Boris Amarr
Viziam Amarr Empire
59
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:18:00 -
[270] - Quote
Zealot without drones again!!! Why ??? |
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