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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
28
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Posted - 2013.08.07 21:14:00 -
[1771] - Quote
Really? We're still on this "Diemost is OP tank" kick? Maybe people should do the math on what you're giving up in order to fit this 1k dps tank. Powergrid is still the choke point on the Deimos and forces you to make tough choices between tank and gank. I think it's pretty balanced now. If it face melts with neutrons, it's a couple of good alpha strikes away from death. If you go with a plate or full buffer, you have little to no margin for error in getting position on your target with your electron blasters. If you shield kite, anything firing EM damage at 40km is going to eat you alive, and a shield resistance tank is not the greatest without another slot.. The Deimos didn't get a little buff to tank and an active tank bonus and magically transform into a Proteus. This idea that it is now OP it a result of people considering its fullest potential in every category while not considering that it can't meet them all at once. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
139
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Posted - 2013.08.07 21:15:00 -
[1772] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Really? We're still on this "Diemost is OP tank" kick? Maybe people should do the math on what you're giving up in order to fit this 1k dps tank. Powergrid is still the choke point on the Deimos and forces you to make tough choices between tank and gank. I think it's pretty balanced now. If it face melts with neutrons, it's a couple of good alpha strikes away from death. If you go with a plate or full buffer, you have little to no margin for error in getting position on your target with your electron blasters. If you shield kite, anything firing EM damage at 40km is going to eat you alive, and a shield resistance tank is not the greatest without another slot.. The Deimos didn't get a little buff to tank and an active tank bonus and magically transform into a Proteus. This idea that it is now OP it a result of people considering its fullest potential in every category while not considering that it can't meet them all at once.
You gave up very little, it still does 500+dps, has 20k ehp, is as fast as a shield fit and tanks 1k dps. |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
28
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Posted - 2013.08.07 21:35:00 -
[1773] - Quote
Quote:You give up very little, it still does 500+dps, has 20k ehp, is as fast as a shield fit and tanks 1k dps.
20k EHP is OP? Nope. Not by any stretch. I'm wondering now if you're trolling. Even the tech 1 cruisers can top 20k. |
Jerick Ludhowe
trolllolcorp
512
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 21:40:00 -
[1774] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Quote:You give up very little, it still does 500+dps, has 20k ehp, is as fast as a shield fit and tanks 1k dps. 20k EHP is OP? Nope. Not by any stretch. I'm wondering now if you're trolling. Even the tech 1 cruisers can top 20k.
Do yourself a favor and compare ehp values of an active tanked cruiser with no plates. Comparing a buffer fit t1 to an active tanked t2 is not really a good way to compare ehp values... Just saying bro
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Kick Rocks
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2013.08.07 21:45:00 -
[1775] - Quote
Alex Tutuola wrote: I see no reason to ask for the muninn to be changed to missiles. It has its own role, and artillery is it. That said, it would benefit from a bit more power grid so you could fit 720mm IIs and a 1600mm plate without both rig slots using an ancillary current router. Otherwise, it will remain only a Black Legion toy, not having enough damage/tank to make even an anti-support fleet. If intended as small gang/solo play.... Well, the minmatar already have the vagabond, don't they?
I am hoping we are not going for a Solo Muninn. I might be the only pilot insane enough to even try that. However I do feel that it sacrifices a bit too much damage to fit a tank similar to it's breathern. I might just be wrong on this and I am willing to accept that. CCP Rise, if you want this to be an Armor HAC as satated on the radio, please consider giving it a little boost to it's PG. I don't think the original PG had that type of fit in mind.
v/r 1 of about 25 Muninn pilots. Yes, I am an alt. -áNo, I do not care how you feel about that. -á |
Fewell
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
12
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Posted - 2013.08.07 21:47:00 -
[1776] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Naomi Knight wrote: bought too many vagas and you cant sell them or what? btw it seems the vaga can fit 425mm + mwd + shield tank pretty well , so where is the problem?
The problem is that people won't be happy until the ship can out brawl, out tank, and out kite all of it's competition. some people want to fit 425s on top of that shield bonus. Some people would rather that easily abusable with links/blue pill and implant bonus be switched for another falloff bonus so the ship doesn't have to run from most things that aren't frigates. |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
28
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Posted - 2013.08.07 21:54:00 -
[1777] - Quote
Quote:Do yourself a favor and compare ehp values of an active tanked cruiser with no plates. Comparing a buffer fit t1 to an active tanked t2 is not really a good way to compare ehp values... Just saying bro
Wow. Say you're wondering if someone's trolling, get a response from trollolcorp. I have my answer.
Seriously, though. I don't this uber-on-paper tank is going to perform like you think. We'll wait and see, though. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
139
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Posted - 2013.08.07 22:09:00 -
[1778] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Quote:Do yourself a favor and compare ehp values of an active tanked cruiser with no plates. Comparing a buffer fit t1 to an active tanked t2 is not really a good way to compare ehp values... Just saying bro Wow. Say you're wondering if someone's trolling, get a response from trollolcorp. I have my answer. Seriously, though. I don't this uber-on-paper tank is going to perform like you think. We'll wait and see, though.
You do now i was talking about a dualrep fit that tanks about 1k dps preheat? Not about a buffer fit. |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
28
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Posted - 2013.08.07 22:23:00 -
[1779] - Quote
Quote:You do now i was talking about a dualrep fit that tanks about 1k dps preheat? Not about a buffer fit.
Yes, I do. And, I don't think it's going to perform how you think. Cap is going to be an issue even with the new MWD bonus and cap changes. A cap booster will be another drain on powergrid. We still haven't seen how well these new rails are going to apply damage at full transversal. All in all, I just think it's not going to come out the beast that you think it will be. I don't see it becoming the new Cynabal. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
755
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Posted - 2013.08.07 22:31:00 -
[1780] - Quote
Diemos solution is obvious, you adopt the same tactic as you did against the pre-nerf Angel hulls: Blue-ball the bastards until you have enough neuting lined up to make him into a fluffy bunny.
I suspect the Curse will go through a huge popularity increase as everyone and their mother jumps on the Gallente bandwagon scary bit about it is that it has better cap recharge than the current Sacrilege with the revised Sac being only marginally better .. roll on Gallente bias .. first more lows than the kings of lows and now more cap, can't wait to see what they think of next! |
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
139
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Posted - 2013.08.07 22:54:00 -
[1781] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Quote:You do now i was talking about a dualrep fit that tanks about 1k dps preheat? Not about a buffer fit. Yes, I do. And, I don't think it's going to perform how you think. Cap is going to be an issue even with the new MWD bonus and cap changes. A cap booster will be another drain on powergrid. We still haven't seen how well these new rails are going to apply damage at full transversal. All in all, I just think it's not going to come out the beast that you think it will be. I don't see it becoming the new Cynabal.
Its completly capstable with mwd on, it fits easily with ions (2 medium reppers + medium cap booster need less grid then a 1600 plate) and rails track nearly any cruiser (mabye not a loki linked vaga with halos) perfectly at 20km, no matter its transversal.
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Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
28
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Posted - 2013.08.07 23:00:00 -
[1782] - Quote
Quote:Its completly capstable with mwd on, it fits easily with ions (2 medium reppers + medium cap booster need less grid then a 1600 plate) and rails track nearly any cruiser (mabye not a loki linked vaga with halos) perfectly at 20km, no matter its transversal.
And, fighting with ions at that range makes it vulnerable to any number of tactics. What you've just laid out isn't something we haven't dealt with and countered before. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
139
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Posted - 2013.08.07 23:04:00 -
[1783] - Quote
Ions at that range? 1.9 +7.5km with antimatter is perfetct range for a brawl at 500 tpye of cruiser.
It also is shared by all blaster ships. And that argument is completely irrelevant, it doesnt matter that you can counter a brawler, if that brawler is op compared to other brawlers its op, not fine. |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
28
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 23:13:00 -
[1784] - Quote
Quote:Ions at that range? 1.9 +7.5km with antimatter is perfetct range for a brawl at 500 tpye of cruiser.It also is shared by all blaster ships. And that argument is completely irrelevant, it doesnt matter that you can counter a brawler, if that brawler is op compared to other brawlers its op, not fine.
Compared to which brawlers is it OP? Compared to ASB brawlers with their cap-free activation? Compared to a brawling battleship? Something is going to be the "best" cruiser brawler. It sounds like you're upset that it might just be the Deimos. And, I'm not even sure it will be the best. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 23:36:00 -
[1785] - Quote
If there is a best one it is beeing done wrong that is the very meaning of op, also asb brawlers suck, you have to take the eft value and divide it through 2-4 so you get the actual tanking value (you only have 1 booster running at a time, so half it and most asbs dont run for very lomg only 36 seconds for a large one for example while the reload is 60 secs so to get the sustained number you need to nearly half it yet again), a deimos does as said 500+ dps and tanks 1k dps has full tackle, a dual asb eagle tanks 550dps sustained and deals less then 500dps.
If you think any sort of asb tank bar on a vaga is op you are beeing delusional.
You argument basicely is, yes it will be op but thats ok. |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
29
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 23:46:00 -
[1786] - Quote
No. My argument is that Eve doesn't want or need perfect balance and that having a best in category is just fine. If everything could get identical performance, this game would be boring. |
Romar Thel
Mythos Corp Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 23:50:00 -
[1787] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Another small update
Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45) Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)
ok, and where is the actual boosting? |
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 00:30:00 -
[1788] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:If there is a best one it is beeing done wrong that is the very meaning of op, also asb brawlers suck, you have to take the eft value and divide it through 2-4 so you get the actual tanking value (you only have 1 booster running at a time, so half it and most asbs dont run for very lomg only 36 seconds for a large one for example while the reload is 60 secs so to get the sustained number you need to nearly half it yet again), a deimos does as said 500+ dps and tanks 1k dps has full tackle, a dual asb eagle tanks 550dps sustained and deals less then 500dps.
If you think any sort of asb tank bar on a vaga is op you are beeing delusional.
You argument basicely is, yes it will be op but thats ok.
I would aruge that the Eagle is teribly under powered, not that the deimos is over powered. |
Av Ra
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2013.08.08 01:25:00 -
[1789] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Really? We're still on this "Diemost is OP tank" kick? Maybe people should do the math on what you're giving up in order to fit this 1k dps tank. Powergrid is still the choke point on the Deimos and forces you to make tough choices between tank and gank. I think it's pretty balanced now. If it face melts with neutrons, it's a couple of good alpha strikes away from death. If you go with a plate or full buffer, you have little to no margin for error in getting position on your target with your electron blasters. If you shield kite, anything firing EM damage at 40km is going to eat you alive, and a shield resistance tank is not the greatest without another slot.. The Deimos didn't get a little buff to tank and an active tank bonus and magically transform into a Proteus. This idea that it is now OP it a result of people considering its fullest potential in every category while not considering that it can't meet them all at once.
This guy gets it. |
Jerick Ludhowe
trolllolcorp
514
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 02:21:00 -
[1790] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote: a dual asb eagle tanks 550dps sustained
You managed to leave out the fact that running the asbs don't take cap, you know.... One of the most important features of the modules? Obviously that has no relevance in a comparison of brawling setups that engage at ranges which expose them to all size of nuets tho, right?!.... (I'm being facetious on that lest part btw)
So please do us all a favor and don't straw man the "argument" of someone when you yourself are being dishonest in the comparison...
P.S. I'll be waiting for your straw man claiming that "I think the Eagle is fine". |
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Alex Tutuola
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
3
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Posted - 2013.08.08 04:17:00 -
[1791] - Quote
Eagle is not fine. It needs a signature reduction and speed increase to be anywhere near a viable fleet ship. Otherwise, HAC fleets will remain zealot only, as it is the only ship that performs at the ranges, damages, and sig to speed ratios necessary to compete with attack battlecruisers. I am not arguing for it to become a solo/small gang boat (though I'm certain you could try to make it so), but if it is to show up in any doctrine ships in the future, it needs a base signature of 125, and base speed of 200 m/s.
You have stated, Rise, that you intend the eagle to be a fleet ship. Please alter its stats so that it can effectively do so. Thank you.
I feel like a broken record, but clearly it has to be repeated if the devs are going to see it. |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 05:20:00 -
[1792] - Quote
Quote:Eagle is not fine. It needs a signature reduction and speed increase to be anywhere near a viable fleet ship. Otherwise, HAC fleets will remain zealot only, as it is the only ship that performs at the ranges, damages, and sig to speed ratios necessary to compete with attack battlecruisers. I am not arguing for it to become a solo/small gang boat (though I'm certain you could try to make it so), but if it is to show up in any doctrine ships in the future, it needs a base signature of 125, and base speed of 200 m/s.
You have stated, Rise, that you intend the eagle to be a fleet ship. Please alter its stats so that it can effectively do so. Thank you.
I feel like a broken record, but clearly it has to be repeated if the devs are going to see it.
What are your criteria for a fleet ship? It did get a pretty substantial powergrid boost and an extra midslot. It has a pretty high sensor strength, and its sig radius isn't all that high. I could see these ships playing a couple of roles in fleets. Like most ships, their natural strengths have to be considered, and what you're going up against is more likely to determine whether it is viable than what the Eagle itself is capable of. |
Alex Tutuola
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 05:36:00 -
[1793] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Quote:Eagle is not fine. It needs a signature reduction and speed increase to be anywhere near a viable fleet ship. Otherwise, HAC fleets will remain zealot only, as it is the only ship that performs at the ranges, damages, and sig to speed ratios necessary to compete with attack battlecruisers. I am not arguing for it to become a solo/small gang boat (though I'm certain you could try to make it so), but if it is to show up in any doctrine ships in the future, it needs a base signature of 125, and base speed of 200 m/s.
You have stated, Rise, that you intend the eagle to be a fleet ship. Please alter its stats so that it can effectively do so. Thank you.
I feel like a broken record, but clearly it has to be repeated if the devs are going to see it. What are your criteria for a fleet ship? It did get a pretty substantial powergrid boost and an extra midslot. It has a pretty high sensor strength, and its sig radius isn't all that high. I could see these ships playing a couple of roles in fleets. Like most ships, their natural strengths have to be considered, and what you're going up against is more likely to determine whether it is viable than what the Eagle itself is capable of.
It needs a better speed to signature ratio if it's going to beat an ABC fleet in equal numbers. It doesn't have the range to just snipe said fleet, as they are using battleship weapons. The current sig radius doesn't look that bad, but consider that after fittings, it's going to have 190m from a dual LSE (as seems to be the point of another mid and additional PG) before factoring in the effect of shield rigs. If kept to single LSE, that starts you at 165m before rigs. With an afterburner active, you are still slower than the 1600mm plated HACs.
It will never be able to fight a zealot fleet on equal terms, so the speed/sig ratio isn't going to affect that. Eagle fleet takes range or dies, because the zealot fleet enjoys the benefits of short range tracking. I'm not asking it to beat the zealot on equal terms. That fight is going to come down to which fleet has the better commander and/or interdictor pilots.
However, when Rise says he wants the eagle to be a "fleet ship", I have to assume that we're not talking about blasters here. It's going to need to take lesser damage from battleship class weapons. If it doesn't get that boost, it will never* make it into a large fleet.
* Unless Black Legion takes that as a challenge and starts kicking everybody's butts with eagles instead of muninns.
EDIT: Pound for pound is probably a bad analogy when discussing a cruiser fighting a battlecruiser. |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 05:59:00 -
[1794] - Quote
Quote:It needs a better speed to signature ratio if it's going to beat an ABC fleet pound for pound.
I think part of problem is that you're expecting it do something it just isn't meant to do. Battlecruisers in general are sort of the natrual predator of cruiser hulls. |
Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
1
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Posted - 2013.08.08 07:17:00 -
[1795] - Quote
Lucien Cain wrote:
Now my 2 Cents. I'm aware that the 4th Mid of the SAC has it's uses, just as all Midslots are usually a good addition to a ships overall capabilities. Now looking at the SAC what Role does it actually fill? Where does it truly shine in comparison to other HACs in a specific Role? As said before it's pretty much a Jack of all trades without specific strengths or weaknesses. While many seem to be ok with that i personally see this as being simply boring and uninspired.
This is what i propose. High - 6 Slots Mid - 3 Slots Low - 6 Slots
Since the SAC has built in it's amazing Cap-reload capabilities, a 4th Mid commonly used for Cap Injectors (assuming the rest is used for MWD, WEB, SCRAM) would be pretty much useless. It would also create a certain Balance of clear defined Strengths(Tank+Attack) and Weaknesses (against the buffed Nosferatus and already awesome Neuts). With such a change there would be no denying that this is a Heavy Brawler. One Mid less would balance it out decently without creating an overpowered PWN-Machine.
To add my two cents to your comment and my other comments I think that the problem with SAC (and our discussion on slot layout) derives from the fact that we do see a clear role for SAC. Its current version is more geared towards solo or small gang pvp. In this case a 4th mid slot is essential, and the utility hi slot is also good. For normal gangs (10+) those slots are useless however. Sac is there to gank and tank and only this ration matters. Also it doesnGÇÖt need cap injections so no 4th mid slot - it will be buffer tank (also sorry guys for criticizing you earlier for cap booster use - I had buffer tank only Sac picture in my head :)).
So it is a job for CCP to give it a well-defined role (and in current state it doesnGÇÖt have it). In my opinion it should be a fleet ship as amarr are generally not good solo (they are too slow for that), although Sac was a notable exception. I see it as a close range heavy brawler that has less dps than Deimos but much more tank. So again - remove either hi or mid slot and add 6th low.
CCP pls donGÇÖt make it the jack of all trades ship - itGÇÖs against your own philosophy to specialize t2 ships. |
Alex Tutuola
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 08:15:00 -
[1796] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:
I think part of problem is that you're expecting it do something it just isn't meant to do. Battlecruisers in general are sort of the natural predator of cruiser hulls.
This is true, when discussing battlecruisers wielding the same class of weaponry. However, I don't think it's asking too much for a cruiser class vessel to outrun battleship guns with an afterburner on. The zealot seems to have this going for it. Considering that the zealot received almost no changes so far, it seems to be the bar. Even with the changes I propose, it will not compete with the zealot in its own arena. It won't compete right now with attack battlecruisers. What, then, are you suggesting it is supposed to be fighting? It has no drone bay, so it isn't going to do well fighting down a class. It hasn't the speed to skirmish. It has the possibility to mount a tank relevant to HAC fleets, but is too big and slow to compete their either, in addition to tracking issues in optimal against other HACs.
Since it needs long range weapons to make full use of its bonuses, it isn't going to get much benefit from blasters. That being so, it won't have the tracking to compete with assault frigate fleets. Since you are arguing against it being able to outrun battleship weapons, that leaves us with a ship that can't fight it's own size, larger, or smaller.
What are you suggesting it is to be used for? |
Kane Fenris
NWP
72
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 08:37:00 -
[1797] - Quote
Romar Thel wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Another small update
Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45) Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20) ok, and where is the actual boosting?
with skills its quite a bit though i would have hoped for about 10 pg more |
Devon Weeks
Deadspace Defense Initiative Initiative Associates
31
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Posted - 2013.08.08 08:57:00 -
[1798] - Quote
Quote:What are you suggesting it is to be used for?
Well, before we get deep into analysis of the ship, have you crunched the numbers to figure out its new dps with the updated rails or its maximum range? I think the combination of the hull with the new rails are going to be pivotal in pinning down this ship's role. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Tormented of Destiny The Kadeshi
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 09:33:00 -
[1799] - Quote
Alex Tutuola wrote:Devon Weeks wrote:
I think part of problem is that you're expecting it do something it just isn't meant to do. Battlecruisers in general are sort of the natural predator of cruiser hulls.
This is true, when discussing battlecruisers wielding the same class of weaponry. However, I don't think it's asking too much for a cruiser class vessel to outrun battleship guns with an afterburner on. The zealot seems to have this going for it. Considering that the zealot received almost no changes so far, it seems to be the bar. Even with the changes I propose, it will not compete with the zealot in its own arena. It won't compete right now with attack battlecruisers. What, then, are you suggesting it is supposed to be fighting? It has no drone bay, so it isn't going to do well fighting down a class. It hasn't the speed to skirmish. It has the possibility to mount a tank relevant to HAC fleets, but is too big and slow to compete there, in addition to tracking issues in optimal against other HACs. Since it needs long range weapons to make full use of its bonuses, it isn't going to get much benefit from blasters. That being so, it won't have the tracking to compete with assault frigate fleets. Since you are arguing against it being able to outrun battleship weapons, that leaves us with a ship that can't fight it's own size, larger, or smaller. What are you suggesting it is to be used for?
what about a supplementation for ABC-sniper fleets (as you seem very focussed on them?) eagle should easily achieve similar ranges, at which it actually won't need much tracking. compared to its ABC-brethren it has additionally a smaller signature resolution, so way better dmg-application at range. it could easily pick frigs apart who try to burn to your fleet in order to get a warp-in. from the looks of it, the eagle could be a better supplement to naga fleets then the muninn is right now.
when compare the eagle to the zealot, you kind of have to consider, that the eagle is already more agile than zealot before tank. with tank this can only get more pronounced and complaning, that a caldari ship isn't made for signature tanking is just hilarious :)
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DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
60
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Posted - 2013.08.08 09:42:00 -
[1800] - Quote
Romar Thel wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Another small update
Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45) Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20) ok, and where is the actual boosting?
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