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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1825
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello!
Lets get back to this HAC thing. The first HAC proposal raised discussion around tons of topics. Common ones included our overall design for tech levels, the way HACs intersect with tech 1, tech 3, and faction ships and of course specific input on ship-by-ship stats and performance. I want to try and cover as much of this as possible so get some tea or something.
Lets start with role. We've had several presentations and posts and dev blogs now which explain that tech 1 is general and tech 2 is specialized. While this is certainly our high-level goal, it will be compromised occasionally when the specifics of a certain project have other goals that pull in another direction. HACs are an example. The reality is that when HACs were first introduced they were just cruisers on steroids. The defensive benefits of added resists were the most distinct 'specialization', but they were nowhere near as specialized as something like Recons or Stealth Bombers.
With the rebalance effort here, we discussed entirely new roles or specializations that would be more in-line with the high level ideas we have laid out for all EVE ships, but ultimately decided that it wasn't worth completely throwing out the ships we had. Not only do they have a lot of history in the game, which leads to attachment, but they also have a lot of legitimate use already which we wanted to avoid disrupting if possible.
Now all that said, most of the feedback was in agreement that you would prefer to have their role more clear and pronounced. Basically, we didn't go far enough by adding the role bonus and it would be better if they stood out more from their competition as being specialized in some way. So, we focused on their resilience. HACs are tough but mobile cruisers that can take a lot of punishment. What we want to do is extend that tenacity to some of their other systems, namely electronics and capacitor.
All HACs will gain 7-8 sensor strength, putting their average Sensor Strength at 22 which is right around combat battleship range. All HACs gain 15k to 25k lock range All HACs have their cap recharge per second set to around 5.5 rather than the former 3.5 - 4.5 cap/sec Along with these changes, we are going to go ahead with the originally proposed role bonus. I've seen and participated in tons of talk about this bonus and I keep seeing the same problem - the tracking formula is not intuitive and the confusion leads to this bonus looking less powerful than it actually is. I've made another set of graphs to help illustrate, but please keep in mind that this is just one example and results may vary.
DAMAGE GRAPHS
On the left is the damage that three different ships (Null Blaster Talos, HML Drake and AHAC Zealot) do to a Sacrilege with its MWD on without the role bonus. On the right is after the role bonus. You can see that the Zealot, which tracks extremely well, isn't heavily affected, but the Talos and the Drake lose about 25% of their DPS. Now we can have a new discussion about how important that 25% is, but its important to understand that we are usually talking about an extremely significant amount of damage mitigation when MWD is active. And again, we know that not all HACs will be running MWDs, but we feel that those configurations are plenty powerful and prefer to support a larger variety of applications by adding the MWD bonus.
Alright, lets get to specifics. The big takeaway from feedback (both CSM and public thread) was that we have more room to make HACs more powerful without putting too much pressure on their competition, so watch for that as you read through all the changes. Note: the differences appearing in (parentheses) are as compared to the version of ship on TQ currently, not the first iteration. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1825
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
f |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1825
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Going upstairs for food, be right back to answer questions =) |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
456
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Still worried on the shield boost bonus on a ship with only 4 mids. It bee lines the ship on a basic single fit.
IF you want to do that at least give it a bit more CPU otherwise ALL vagabonds will be 180 mm ASB boats with EXACT same fit.
The sacriledge is much better.
The cerberus.. I still fear might become too powerful with speed. but the metagame might not let that happen.. we must wait and see on this case
Well.. I just hope when you reach the recons you do not forget to make the Huggin the same thing you made the bellicose... |
Kururugi
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Oh snap I came right on time! Time to get readin' |
Allandri
Liandri Industrial Liandri Covenant
46
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Disappointed that they all kept the MWD bloom bonus and the fact that the Cerberus kept the kinetic damage bonus
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Ix Method
Khanid Regional Directorate
30
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
/me wipes away a tear
Thanks you. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
640
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
the sac still sucks, it either dosnt have enough tank or not enough dps.
move the utility high to an extra low.
love this ship, but you are not fixing it enough to make it worth flying OMG when can i get a pic here
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Capqu
Love Squad
185
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
rise
thanks for everything
i'm so sorry about atxi http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
209
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Reserved How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1366
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Still worried on the shield boost bonus on a ship with only 4 mids. It bee lines the ship on a basic single fit.
The sacriledge is much better.
The cerberus.. I still fear might become too powerful with speed. but the metagame might not let that happen.. we must wait and see on this case
Well.. I just hope when you reach the recons you do not forget to make the Huggin the same thing you made the bellicose...
The presence of the bonus still doesn't force you to use the bonus, any more than it did in the first iteration. hth. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Zer Res
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thanks for the Eagle PG and especially for the Ishtar fitting buffs! |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
614
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:The cerberus.. I still fear might become too powerful with speed. but the metagame might not let that happen.. we must wait and see on this case "Cerberus" and "too powerful" in the same sentence. That's a first.
Anyway, THANK YOU SO MUCH for the CPU on the Ishtar, CCP Rise! |
Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm really excited about the Eagle, Ishtar, and Vagabond. However, I feel that the kinetic damage bonus on the Cerebus is another relic of the past. Can't it just be a slightly reduced bonus to all missile damage? |
Kristoffon Ellecon
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
84
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: The other big problem with the Vaga is the Cynabal. That is not a problem we want to address by having an arms race between the two during this rebalance. The Cynabal needs a look and I'm sure when we get to pirate cruisers we can solve the problem.
I think you're doing great work overall. IMHO all the proposed changes are good so my only comment is: please don't ruin the Cynabal I trust you will manage to keep it a powerful ship, inline with its cost, that can be flow in a variety of ways -- armor, shield buffer, shield active, ac, arty, etc, and pretty please with a cherry on top don't nerf its speed. Thank you. |
Capqu
Love Squad
185
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:I'm really excited about the Eagle, Ishtar, and Vagabond. However, I feel that the kinetic damage bonus on the Cerebus is another relic of the past. Can't it just be a slightly reduced bonus to all missile damage?
nah dude, its already super strong
you need to let rapid lights into your life http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
118
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Some positive changes there.
I still don't understand why you maintain the 4/5/5 setup on the Ishtar, though and not go 4/4/6 to get away from the predominant shieldtank - which is what the Gila is there for.
The heavy drone bonus might be useful one day - if you ever get to fix heavy/med drones in general, so they don't die while warping to their targets (or back into the drone bay in PvE). |
Biron Soringard
Enheduanni holdings The Enheduanni
5
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
These definitely sound much better than the previous iteration. While I do still have a few concerns, they mostly have to deal with the metagaming of New Eden, and thus can't really be counted on too heavily for balance purposes, as the meta is constanty changing and morphing with the times.
So, overall, they look promising. The Ishtar's Heavy Drone Velocity bonus is pretty interesting. |
Shade Millith
Bite Me inc Bitten.
82
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Still worried on the shield boost bonus on a ship with only 4 mids. It bee lines the ship on a basic single fit.
You are not required to use every single bonus on a ship. It's still the old vagabond. |
HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
24
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
I like it, but why is the Diemos(t) loosing tank? |
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SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
641
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Rise, this is what I would call a good job, 10x better than the first balancing pass.
The Ishtar's fitting issues are mostly fixed.
The Ishtar's drone bay bonus thingy is fixed.
The Cerberus fitting issues and capacitor issues are fixed.
The Sacrilege gets a bonus that makes it usable in fleets, that's great.
The Deimos gets the very needed adjustments in addition to the slot layout change.
The Muninn gets better at armor things, well, ok.
The only thing that I'm a little bit disappointed about is the fact that you kept the 4 medslots on the Vagabond. A 5th medslot instead of the 6th highslot would have been a demonstration of "We want specialization".
T2 ships are specialized, pirate ships are more versatile. The Vagabond gets 5 medslots but no neut, the Cynabal gets 5 medslots without T2 resistances, but gets the neut. Vaga = Specialized, Cynabal = Versatile.
But I can live with the changes you want to make, it's alright |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
209
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Still worried on the shield boost bonus on a ship with only 4 mids. It bee lines the ship on a basic single fit. You are not required to use every single bonus on a ship. It's still the old vagabond. I'm more worried about the T3's and how they're going to ruin them.
And the old Vagabond sucks, thanks Cynabal! *Cheesy infomercial smile* How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Trifle Donier
Sham Rocks Incorporated
1
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Giving the Ishtar one bonus for sentries and one for heavies is basically the same as it only having 3 bonuses compared to every other ships 4.
Its like giving the deimos a 5% bonus to blaster damage per level, then removing the microwarpdrive bonus and giving it a seperate 5% bonus to railgun damage per level (oh crap don't give them ideas!).
Also why limit it to just heavies? Shouldn't it at least apply to mediums / lights as well ? |
Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
You have the Cerberus and Eagle backwards in the sense that the three light drones (or better 5) should go to the Eagle and not the Cerberus.
The Cerberus will be faster and uses missiles that do some damage to small targets. The Eagle is slower and trying to snipe with rails it has no chance of hitting small &*^ or using blasters it has no range to shoot at a 24km orbiter...
FIX it m8
Sacriledge looks like maybee it went too far...
Deimos is good would be better with replacing the fall off bonus with something more universally applicable...
... but thats all minor issues compared with the Carberus / Eagle thingy I explained above. |
Sir John Halsey
19
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
CERBERUS:
Why do you guys insist in keeping the same kinetic bonus on some ships while making it more generic on other ships? And no rapid light missiles bonus? Only HAMs? |
raawe
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Wow, sacrilege retained some of that cap bonus and now has some projection with missiles. Altho i was hoping for an extra low i'm satisfied, and that CPU bonus is also nice, was always missing some (ishtar too). Great job Rise |
SidtheKid100
Pitchfork Militia Catastrophic Uprising
25
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Very excited about the Ishtar now, thank you so much! The cap recharge bonus for all HACs sounds like it's going to be very helpful, especially for the skirmish/kitey ones. I like it.
However, I'm still a little confused about the decision to remove armor and hull hp from the Deimos in return for a pitiful amount of shield hp. It's not a shield tanking ship, as the slot layout and overall hp distribution would indicate. Why remove the HP that it usually puts resists on? I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I prefer posting with my main. |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
187
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Still worried on the shield boost bonus on a ship with only 4 mids. It bee lines the ship on a basic single fit.
The sacriledge is much better.
The cerberus.. I still fear might become too powerful with speed. but the metagame might not let that happen.. we must wait and see on this case
Well.. I just hope when you reach the recons you do not forget to make the Huggin the same thing you made the bellicose... The presence of the bonus still doesn't force you to use the bonus, any more than it did in the first iteration. hth.
Why do people keep saying this?
The vaga was **** in it's role before the changes, saying "well you can still use a **** ship if you want", really doesn't help. The mid range kiting fast ship thing is done better with a tier 3 full stop. Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
227
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
ISHTAR
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses: 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage) 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses: 5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level 7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)
So do the range/tracking/speed bonus apply to medium/small drones? Why reduce the tracking bonus from the original plan?
Although heading in the right direction I feel the original Domi like 10% to all drone tracking and optimal and a separate 7.5% to drone speed would be more flexible and simpler without being OTT.
Like the improvements in CPU + lock range for it. Fear God and Thread Nought |
Anariasis
Boris Johnson's Love Children
17
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Posted - 2013.07.29 12:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Looks much better :) Would like to see that utility high of the Sac removed in exchange to another low-slot. That ship looks soooo great, would love to fly it. Needs to be a bit better for that though.
Also, with the Ishtar getting almost the same insane bonus as the Dominix, I wonder if you have missed some stacking issues there. You can get a 85km optimal Garde II with Frig-Tracking ability there no problemo... |
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