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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
irion felpamy
Minmatar HellJumpers Corp United For 0rder
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:26:00 -
[1171]
Originally by: Electric Universe
No ships in EVE sucks. Every ships is good in some ways. It all depends on what play style you have and what you are fighting.
Lots of ships in eve suck, tempest, scythe, cyclone, prophecy and auguor for a start. They can all fit guns and can win fights in the right situations but that doesn't stop them being bum.
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:30:00 -
[1172]
Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 15:31:40
Originally by: Electric Universe
But then we can for sure say that your doing things here terribly wrong.
Good work for showing that you can't do the right math and do the right things when it's about comparing ships etc.
The math is fine.
T2 Pulse with faction MF get 0-15km optimal. T2 nuets with faction AM get 0-4.5km optimal.
And the damage amounts given for each ship are using those ammo types.
Try harder.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:34:00 -
[1173]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Originally by: Seishomaru
If you fit a AB on a BS in one of my gangs you'll be laughed out of it. Don't have to run anywhere? Jump into hostiles, Oh hi gang mate who's 15km on other side of gate so 30km away, guess i'll go travel at 300m/s towards the mid point (gate) or to you and watch you die while my RR does nothing to help you.
I don't use actives unless using more than 3 resistance mods + DC. So thats 6 tank mods at least (plates+resistances+dc) which means 1 damage mod on a 7 low slot setup. Pre change of base resistances I was more happy to use 3 active hards when using 3 resistance mods but not now. CCP re-balanced the base resistances for EANM tanks, so EANM tanks is what they get.
Originally by: The Djego
Well I was basing it on a RR gang meeting another BS gang. If a RR gang meets another BS gang that isn't RR (assuming not talk huge numbers hence snipers) the RR gang should win easily everything else being equal (ECM ect). It's as legitimate role as being a sniper (which the Mega also does well) or solo ship.
- If you jump through a gate the first action is usually to MWD back to the gate, this will drop cloak so you can target and also get all your ships closer for RR'ing. I've never ever seen a hostile RR gang sat off the gate or station unless sniping. Being able to deagress (whilst still RR'ing) is to powerful to waste. If your doing stuff like bumping and tackling people trying to run then it sounds like you have the advantage and are just clearing up.
- I don't think that targets spread out the more the fight goes on unless its either a nano gang or sniper gang. Assuming its a RR battle in a belt or outside a POS then yeah you don't have as much reason to stay still hence aligning is more important but still you can't stray to far from friendlies.
Also the longer the fight goes on the more important it is to have lower cap use. My boss loves her Tempest purely because of the times in RR gangs when Geddons have ran out of cap and Mega's are about to but she is still popping away at stuff with her AC's. Obviously not short battles...
- Shield tanks at BS level in gangs are weak tbh. Mid slots are to valueable, if have tacklers (dictors ect) so don't need to tackle then ECCM/Sensor boosters to ensure locks and quick locking.
Yes at cruiser level its more balanced between number of shield tanks and armour, as well as the resistances, have argued those points myself. Thats part of the reason I think Scorch needs more of a tracking penalty since most of the ships that are 20km+ are smaller ships, and the EM damage type really isn't a weakness like at BS level. Lasors and cruise missiles were the weapons to use in the nano (and web) age, and with slower speeds making web range less insta-death lasors are still as good out of web range.
Although tbh the #1 ship i'd want if facing cruiser gang is Domi's. Sentry drones, heavy neuts, remote reps ECCM mids.... pawnage.
- That's kind of my point really, Amarr RR BS are great for fighting gangs of smaller ships who try to keep range and more balance resistances, Megathron RR are great for fighting other BS gangs who have EANM tanks (gallente of course have the domi to which is great for fighting anything in a RR gang).
- No error, it was a 2 MFS fitting.
Its not my problem that you are narrow-minded. Almost everyone with a brain has already noticed that out of 0.0 there is a TON of situations where AB is more than enough specially if allows much easier fittings.
EANM are great when you will fit only 2 resit modules + DC. But Then don 't complain when a typhoon, raven or maesltrom chew up your tank like chocolate.... Also all WELL DEPLOYED RR armor gang should have a damnation giving you extra resists (or at least wasteful BC) that stack muuuch better on Tri hardeners. Granted Tri hardeners work well for Minmatar and less for other races.
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Electric Universe
Minmatar The Choir
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:35:00 -
[1174]
Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 15:31:40
Originally by: Electric Universe
But then we can for sure say that your doing things here terribly wrong.
Good work for showing that you can't do the right math and do the right things when it's about comparing ships etc.
The math is fine.
T2 Pulse with faction MF get 0-15km optimal. T2 nuets with faction AM get 0-4.5km optimal.
And the damage amounts given for each ship are using those ammo types.
Try harder.
Try harder to do the math at 4.5 km with both ships.
Oh wait, you only see that we are right about everything then. Now i know why you wont do it. Thanks for proving my point.
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Dallenovic
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:42:00 -
[1175]
The thing that i think will be upsetting most blaster ship pilots now is that they have to get within tiny ranges to hit with their high damage ammo and now that warp scramblers will turn off your mwd, all it takes is ony inty/frig to completely render your ship useless.
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Electric Universe
Minmatar The Choir
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:44:00 -
[1176]
Originally by: Dallenovic The thing that i think will be upsetting most blaster ship pilots now is that they have to get within tiny ranges to hit with their high damage ammo and now that warp scramblers will turn off your mwd, all it takes is ony inty/frig to completely render your ship useless.
A little frig can render any ships with MWD useless. A frig is fast and can get into scramble range in no time.
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:57:00 -
[1177]
Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 16:02:33
Originally by: Electric Universe
Try harder to do the math at 4.5 km with both ships.
At 4.5km the mega does raw 832 gun dps + 300 raw drone dps.
At 4.5km the abad does raw 802 gun dps + 180 raw drone dps.
The actual DMG after each ships resists and damage types are taken into account:
The abad gets a total of 302.1 DPS at 4.5km vs the mega. The mega gets a total of 293.4 DPS at 4.5km vs the mega.
The abad can continue to do its 302.1 damage against the mega out to 15km.
While the megas 293.4 damage drops off considerably as it goes beyond 4.5km.
Any transversal issues reducing dmg will be non existant due to multiple webs as well as the relative positions of each gangs ships, while in general RR gang combat that includes other ships like the RR phoon fit ect the mega is also at a major disadvantage as it has awful EX resists as well as lower EHP than the abaddon.
The points about the megas holed tank and EHP were mentioned in the original post, and transversal not being even a slight issue in close range BS gang combat is obvious to all.
Maybe you should try reading the original post a little more carefully?.
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Electric Universe
Minmatar The Choir
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Posted - 2009.03.23 16:01:00 -
[1178]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 23/03/2009 16:06:34
Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 15:58:25
Originally by: Electric Universe
Try harder to do the math at 4.5 km with both ships.
At 4.5km the mega does raw 832 gun dps + 300 raw drone dps.
At 4.5km the abad does raw 802 gun dps + 180 raw drone dps.
The actual DMG after each ships resists and damage types are taken into account:
The abad gets a total of 302.1 DPS at 4.5km vs the mega. The mega gets a total of 293.4 DPS at 4.5km vs the mega.
The abad can continue to do its 302.1 damage against the mega out to 15km.
While the megas 293.4 damage drops off considerably as it goes beyond 4.5km.
Any transversal issues reducing dmg will be non existant due to multiple webs as well as the relative positions of each gangs ships, while in general RR gang combat that includes the phoon fit ect the mega is also at a major disadvantage as it has awful EX resists and lower EHP.
The points about the megas holed tank and EHP were mentioned in the original post, and transversal not being even a slight issue in close range BS gang combat is obvious to all.
Maybe you should try reading the original post a little more carefully?.
Yeah, your tripple HS II fitted Abaddon are doing a total of 302.1 DPS at 4.5km vs the mega. While you compare that to a one MFS II fitted Blaster mega that does the total of 293.4 DPS at 4.5km vs the mega.
Wow, talk about being smart ass.
Maybe you should read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016708&page=36#1063
And this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016708&page=36#1074
When you see that this is how things are, then we are going to listen to you. But atm your doing nothing more than EFT warrioring and e-peen stroking on who have the highest EHP etc etc.
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Dallenovic
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.23 16:23:00 -
[1179]
Edited by: Dallenovic on 23/03/2009 16:24:57
Originally by: Electric Universe A little frig can render any ships with MWD useless. A frig is fast and can get into scramble range in no time.
Sorry i was talking medium sized... But most other ships can hit at better ranges especially amarr and caldari, pulses hit at 24km with scorch, hams hit at 20km not like blasters 2k-13k range
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 16:33:00 -
[1180]
Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 16:34:48
Originally by: Electric Universe
Yeah, your tripple HS II fitted Abaddon are doing a total of 302.1 DPS at 4.5km vs the mega. While you compare that to a one MFS II fitted Blaster mega that does the total of 293.4 DPS at 4.5km vs the mega.
Wow, talk about being smart ass.
As i told you before you should read more carefully.
It was gourmindongs 2 MFS RR MEGA/STD MEGA fit that the blaster DMG and resistance figures were taken from not the 1 MFS fit.
And it was my 7 x pulse 3 x HS abaddon fit the laser DMG and resistance figures were also taken from.
Both ships and fits are readily available to each race.
Originally by: Electric Universe Maybe you should read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016708&page=36#1063
A post initially about the phoon and using two RR instead of one...., and later commenting on how blasters are supposed to be "a brutal face pwnage system".
A comment that has now been proven totally wrong when it is compared to the abaddon as after resists are taken into account the RR abaddon out damages gourmies mega fit at the megas own optimal.
Originally by: Electric Universe And this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016708&page=36#1074
Ok so he is talking about putting twin RR on a mega, il go over the figures and do another comparison.
Originally by: Electric Universe When you see that this is how things are, then we are going to listen to you. But atm your doing nothing more than EFT warrioring and e-peen stroking on who have the highest EHP etc etc.
Who are you to talk about how things are?????, yesterday you did not know how to even fit a mega with a single RR let alone two.
And as far as your idea of a hyperion fit goes it was a joke FFS you slapped 8 T2 nuets and 2 LARS on and it ran out of PG before you even fitted a single module in its mid slots or any plates/resistances...
You know nothing about this topic and never did you are just a alt of a troll that got banned.
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Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse death from above..
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:13:00 -
[1181]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Noooooooooo! Please don't aggree with me then argue the opposite.
I dunno why so many people can't figure this out:
- Remote reps are short range - Blasters are short range - RR fights are short range - Blasters rock in RR fights - RR BS are pretty damn pwn so blasters rock.
I wasn't arguing the opposite, I was pointing out the flaws of the other side of the coin.
What you have to say about RR gangs is wrong. For starters asuming every RR fight is closerange, they're centainly NOT. Second, you're assuming everyone with RRs will be in RR range of the enemy primary and vice versa (accounting for a blasterships need to be very close to the primary in order to deal damage), which is most certainly NOT the case, even in fights considered "closerange".
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:20:00 -
[1182]
Twin RR mega vs Twin RR abaddon.
The twin RR mega has a max dmg out put of 713 gun dps that is 58% kinetic and 42% thermal and 300 sentry drone dps that is thermal.
300 thermal drone dps less 75.7% = 72.9 dps. 413.54 kinetic gun dps less 71.9% = 116.2 dps. 299.04 thermal gun dps less 75.7% = 72.6 dps.
The mega hits the abaddon for a total of 261.7 dps from 0-4.5km after resists.
The twin RR abaddon has a max dmg output of 687 gun dps that is 58% em and 42% thermal and 180 sentry drone dps that is thermal
180 thermal drone dps less 65.5% = 62.10 dps. 398.46 em gun damage less 73.4% = 105.99 dps. 288.54 th gun damage less 65.5% = 99.54 dps.
The abaddon hits the mega for a total of 267.6 dps from 0-15km after resists.
The mega actually has 2% LESS DPS and 300% less range, and a WEAK 52.2% explosive resist hole and also has 18% LESS EHP.
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Marn Prestoc
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:23:00 -
[1183]
Originally by: Seishi Maru Its not my problem that you are narrow-minded. Almost everyone with a brain has already noticed that out of 0.0 there is a TON of situations where AB is more than enough specially if allows much easier fittings.
EANM are great when you will fit only 2 resit modules + DC. But Then don 't complain when a typhoon, raven or maesltrom chew up your tank like chocolate.... Also all WELL DEPLOYED RR armor gang should have a damnation giving you extra resists (or at least wasteful BC) that stack muuuch better on Tri hardeners. Granted Tri hardeners work well for Minmatar and less for other races.
If being narrow minded means making sure everyone in your gang can get within RR range of each other then i'm guilty as charged! I'd call it being a team players rather than going "i'm lazor BS, you come to me!". Seriously, if not using a MWD when will doing 300m/s instead of 100m/s (assuming not webbed) by using a AB help more than a EW mod like ECCM?
If a Raven or Maelstrom is in a RR gang with shield effects it will be primaried instantly, then its really only the low raw DPS of Tempest/Typhoon left for EXP damage.
Agreed on the gang link points but it does depend on gang size and pilot availability. I'd count it as a resistance mod hence if using 2 EANM/ANP it would be the 3rd. If using 3 EANM/ANP then obviously having it as the 4th stacking penalized mod is daft so would have to change. But having EM lowest on both shields and armour is just daft, didn't do it when amarr were complaining about lazors/ships so not going to start now. Blame CCP's stupid balancing choice of nerfing all tanks EM res when people were only complaining about EANM tanks... -
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Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse death from above..
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:38:00 -
[1184]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
I have no idea what you lot are doing, a 1v1 fight does not help balance ships appart from in 1v1 situations. If you only compare EHP, Damage and Range vs a Abaddon then of course it will win. If you do that all other BS in EVE need boosting although logical answer if the methods was correct (which it isn't) is nerf Abaddon. For example you arn't taking into account cap use (seriously 2xLRAR Abaddon? LOL cap use). Your also comparing a tier 2 to 3 so cheaper ship vs more expensive (even after insurance).
Considering your graphs simulate a 1on1 situation against a generic BS sized double EANM + DC tanked target it's pretty stark from you discrediting him for his effort. I don't think he wanted to point out that the imballance is in a direct connection to a hypothetical 1on1 (as you did) but show how biased the assumption of your standardized tanks/racial resist destribution is.
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:55:00 -
[1185]
Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 18:03:40
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
I have no idea what you lot are doing, a 1v1 fight does not help balance ships appart from in 1v1 situations.
It is not a 1 v 1 fight it is a comparison on how they perfom relative to each other as RR ships and the DMG out put they do against each others tanks.
It also shows the issues megas have in gang combat due to the awful explosive hole in its resists.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc If you only compare EHP, Damage and Range vs a Abaddon then of course it will win.
In a RR BS gang vs RR BS gang or even standard BS gang vs BS gang situation EHP, damage and range are the most important factors.
And as ppl are saying that the blaster mega is supposed to be the uber close range pwn mobile for close range RR/standard BS combat a perspective on the fact that it is not should be given.
It cannot even out dmg a abaddon when they both have 1 or 2 RR and 7 or 6 guns and that needed to be shown as well as a look at the holes in its tank.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc For example you arn't taking into account cap use (seriously 2xLRAR Abaddon? LOL cap use).
Yes i did.
With both ships fitted the same way (TWIN RR) the mega has 4 mins of cap without burning its mwd and 1 min with burning it and the abaddon has just under 3 mins without its mwd on and also 1 min with.
And obviously the abaddon would need to burn its MWD very rarely if at all, while the mega is renouned for needing to do just that just so it can get into good dmg range.
Originally by: Marn Prestoc Your also comparing a tier 2 to 3 so cheaper ship vs more expensive (even after insurance).
They are both easily available to buy and fit as they use no implants or faction mods, and quibbling over a bit of isk differance when a player is going to HAVE to buy a ship anyway is just silly.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2009.03.23 18:04:00 -
[1186]
Originally by: Cohkka
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
I have no idea what you lot are doing, a 1v1 fight does not help balance ships appart from in 1v1 situations. If you only compare EHP, Damage and Range vs a Abaddon then of course it will win. If you do that all other BS in EVE need boosting although logical answer if the methods was correct (which it isn't) is nerf Abaddon. For example you arn't taking into account cap use (seriously 2xLRAR Abaddon? LOL cap use). Your also comparing a tier 2 to 3 so cheaper ship vs more expensive (even after insurance).
Considering your graphs simulate a 1on1 situation against a generic BS sized double EANM + DC tanked target it's pretty stark from you discrediting him for his effort. I don't think he wanted to point out that the imballance is in a direct connection to a hypothetical 1on1 (as you did) but show how biased the assumption of your standardized tanks/racial resist destribution is.
What are you on about? The comparisons are nothing alike. Calculating EHP vs DPS in a 1v1 fight only helps for a 1v1 fight. Showing the damage outputs against a set target provides a CONSTANT for a comparison. That CONSTANT here is all 3 layers of HP of a armour tanked BS, which is not unreasonable. All 3 layers of resistances and HP are used to calculate ship averages for each damage type, this is more accurate than just using the tanked HP layer. I provided both because the situation means repairing is likely to occur hence longer is spent in the tanked HP layer, hence provided the boundries.
A 1v1 comparison has nothing to do with showing biased assumptions of standardized tanks. Are you seriously going to say active hardeners are more common than EANM/ANP? Otherwise where is bias? -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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ChalSto
LOCKDOWN. Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.23 18:17:00 -
[1187]
Originally by: Electric Universe
Originally by: Childstar
Originally by: Electric Universe
Can i ask why you are comparing Blaster Mega at 4.5 km and then compare a Laser Abaddon at 15 km.
Hey smartpants. Compare 4.5 km to 4.5 km.
Im not,
The blaster ship only has a optimal of 0-4.5km at its max available damage.
While the laser ship has a 0-15km optimal at its max available damage.
Is this the best you can do?....
But then we can for sure say that your doing things here terribly wrong.
Good work for showing that you can't do the right math and do the right things when it's about comparing ships etc.
His math is right; its a realistic combat scenario and the outcome reflects current TQ game-mechanics and situations. The Baddon wins here....hands down and nothing to add or to critizise. Originally by: Agmar ----------------------------------------------- "The North is so ghey that even the NPCs fly ravens." |
Ixich
Gallente Divinity Within
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Posted - 2009.03.23 18:19:00 -
[1188]
Doing the physics: Linear velocity = Radius of the circular path x Angular velocity
(Assuming the game works like this...? And Ignoring other mechanics such as gun size, rolls,.. etc. Lvl 5 skills ofc)
Mega can track with Mega Neutrons: 0.07442rad/s Saying the radius is it's optimal 4.5km - Mega can hit something at 4.5km going a maximum 334.89m/s
Abaddon can track with Mega Pulses: 0.04219rad/s Saying the radius is it's optimal: 15km - Abaddon can hit something at 15km going at a maximum 632.85m/s
That seems fair enough, maybe Pulses can track abit too well..?
Comparing abaddon at 4.5km: - Abaddon can hit something at 4.5km going at a maximum 189.855m/s
Now what can we get from this... -Aside from Damage types and Dps, Battleship Vs Battleship, moving at base speeds they can both hit each other perfectly fine.
Base speed: Abaddon = 121m/s Megathron= 138m/s
In reality though, the speed at which i am comparing to the linear velocity is actually the transversal of the two ships from one of the ships reference frames. Thus this will be a higher value, i'm not too sure on the real world values, thats something for you to evaluate yourselves.
OK... so Wtf am i actually concluding from all this?
One on one, these two battleships can fight equally well at close range, 4.5km, against each other. However ofc if the abaddon gets some distance between the mega, he can kick out more damage and would potentially win the fight.
I'll leave with a question though:
If both BS's have no problem hitting each other at close ranges, doing the same damage, why the hell should i go with Blasters if i have the added bonus of range with Pulse lasers?
Imo Large blasters need a slight damge increase.
-Ix-
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.03.23 18:27:00 -
[1189]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 23/03/2009 17:35:03 I have no idea what you lot are doing, a 1v1 fight does not help balance ships appart from in 1v1 situations. If you only compare EHP, Damage and Range vs a Abaddon then of course it will win. If you do that all other BS in EVE need boosting although logical answer if the methods was correct (which it isn't) is nerf Abaddon. For example you arn't taking into account cap use (seriously 2xLRAR Abaddon? LOL cap use). Your also comparing a tier 2 to 3 so cheaper ship vs more expensive (even after insurance).
Abaddons will shoot Abaddons. Megas will shoot Megas. Everyone shoots Everyone.
Oh and where does this 4.5km thing come from? You know you can fire outside optimal, ask Minmatar pilots... Just look at the graphs on the last page, there's still an advantage at further ranges than optimal.
Originally by: Seishi Maru Its not my problem that you are narrow-minded. Almost everyone with a brain has already noticed that out of 0.0 there is a TON of situations where AB is more than enough specially if allows much easier fittings.
EANM are great when you will fit only 2 resit modules + DC. But Then don 't complain when a typhoon, raven or maesltrom chew up your tank like chocolate.... Also all WELL DEPLOYED RR armor gang should have a damnation giving you extra resists (or at least wasteful BC) that stack muuuch better on Tri hardeners. Granted Tri hardeners work well for Minmatar and less for other races.
If being narrow minded means making sure everyone in your gang can get within RR range of each other then i'm guilty as charged! I'd call it being a team players rather than going "i'm lazor BS, you come to me!". Seriously, if not using a MWD when will doing 300m/s instead of 100m/s (assuming not webbed) by using a AB help more than a EW mod like ECCM?
If a Raven or Maelstrom is in a RR gang with shield effects it will be primaried instantly, then its really only the low raw DPS of Tempest/Typhoon left for EXP damage.
Agreed on the gang link points but it does depend on gang size and pilot availability. I'd count it as a resistance mod hence if using 2 EANM/ANP it would be the 3rd. If using 3 EANM/ANP then obviously having it as the 4th stacking penalized mod is daft so would have to change. But having EM lowest on both shields and armour is just daft, didn't do it when amarr were complaining about lazors/ships so not going to start now. Blame CCP's stupid balancing choice of nerfing all tanks EM res when people were only complaining about EANM tanks...
The objective is ok but the conception about its execution is not. Theory and rpactice have subltle differences, mostly tied to the nature of human brain. .... Takes 11 seconds for an abaddon (just an example) lock an armageddon using AB and 3 seconds to lock an armageddon with MWD. That while we are speaking of a RR BS gang. With overheat can reach 450 ms. Will be in RR range of anyone at the gate when I am finally locked when I can be webbed. That IF i am the first to be locked.... because the MWD ships will have already been locked and natural behavior is throw yoru tackle on first thing you lock. I try this for months.. works wonders... Also take into account the fact you are carried by inertia etc.. and things are not that worse than with an MWD. With an MWD you are 100% sure you gonna hit the gate. But I have been using AB on such situations for like.. 10 or more months and am yet to loose a ship because of it. So I prefer a geddon with Heavier guns and heavier tank but with AB than a MWD one with crappy fittings. My objective is killing the enemy not being ready to bail out at any risk. Tier 1 BS are cheap enough so you can focus only on staying power and killing the enemy.
team play is not about levelign everyone on the common denominator, is everybody workign in a way to reach the highest potential on gang and among individuals.
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Marn Prestoc
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.03.23 18:44:00 -
[1190]
Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 23/03/2009 18:44:51
Originally by: Seishi Maru The objective is ok but the conception about its execution is not. Theory and rpactice have subltle differences, mostly tied to the nature of human brain. .... Takes 11 seconds for an abaddon (just an example) lock an armageddon using AB and 3 seconds to lock an armageddon with MWD. That while we are speaking of a RR BS gang. With overheat can reach 450 ms. Will be in RR range of anyone at the gate when I am finally locked when I can be webbed. That IF i am the first to be locked.... because the MWD ships will have already been locked and natural behavior is throw yoru tackle on first thing you lock. I try this for months.. works wonders... Also take into account the fact you are carried by inertia etc.. and things are not that worse than with an MWD. With an MWD you are 100% sure you gonna hit the gate. But I have been using AB on such situations for like.. 10 or more months and am yet to loose a ship because of it. So I prefer a geddon with Heavier guns and heavier tank but with AB than a MWD one with crappy fittings. My objective is killing the enemy not being ready to bail out at any risk. Tier 1 BS are cheap enough so you can focus only on staying power and killing the enemy.
team play is not about levelign everyone on the common denominator, is everybody workign in a way to reach the highest potential on gang and among individuals.
Sounds interesting, my point being don't expect others to use a MWD when your using a AB.
Chances are in the 20-30 seconds to get into range of each other (before hitting the gate) then waiting for the RR to cycle will put that first target at serious risk. Also remember whilst everyone is MWD'ing so quicker for the enemy to target, its also quicker for you to target so can get reps on them sooner. Really it depends on gang sizes, and is just theorising. Do we agree though that its more reasonable for everyone to use nothing, everyone to use AB or everyone to use MWD than everyone doing there own thing? -
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 18:51:00 -
[1191]
Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 18:54:32
While the stats and figures were put together in a way that seemed a 1 v 1 fight the point of the post was to illustrate that:
1. The so called "omni tank" that is supposed to (according to gourmie and others) give blasters a 35% dmg advantage in blaster optimal over lasers does not exist when available ships are used and properly/standardly fitted.
2. To do this i initially put a T2 and best named fitted abaddon with 1 RR and 7 guns along with its normal/available tank and dmg mod fit a VS a T2 and best named fitted mega with 1 RR and 7 guns that had its normal/available tank and dmg mods fitted.
It was not done to show that the abaddon could beat the mega in a 1 v 1 fight or anything like that, it was done to show just how few BS conform and actually fit this mythical "35% more blaster dmg than lasers omni tank".
I honestly thought that the mega would be doing slightly more dmg against the abaddon than the abaddon would do against the mega and was very supprised when it turned out that the higher DPS after resists was being done by the abaddon in both cases.
Not only that but after reading the other RR fits people use like the phoon ect that also have higher resists against kinetic and thermal than they do EM thermal its clear that the idea that this "35% omni tank" does not exist as far as regular available fits for armour tanking BS is concerned, or at least as far as the sort of fits ppl actually use on armour tanking BS.
So it seems that the tank ppl refer to as the "omni tank" and how it supposedly borks laser dmg while being blaster friendly is not as widespread, good or as used as the ppl would have us believe.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.23 19:08:00 -
[1192]
Originally by: irion felpamy
Originally by: Childstar ...RR Abaddon vs RR Mega
You are assuming they are both firing at eachother, in reality they would both be victimising some poor bastard in a tempest.
rofl... I laughed. More than once.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.23 19:12:00 -
[1193]
Originally by: Childstar So it seems that the tank ppl refer to as the "omni tank" and how it supposedly borks laser dmg while being blaster friendly is not as widespread, good or as used as the ppl would have us believe.
While not wanting to enter this fight on either side, I will say that CCP specifically nerfed the omnitank's effect on EM damage. EM damage has been a very reasonable damage type for a very long time now.
Ok, continue forum warrior'ing.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 19:30:00 -
[1194]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Childstar So it seems that the tank ppl refer to as the "omni tank" and how it supposedly borks laser dmg while being blaster friendly is not as widespread, good or as used as the ppl would have us believe.
While not wanting to enter this fight on either side, I will say that CCP specifically nerfed the omnitank's effect on EM damage. EM damage has been a very reasonable damage type for a very long time now.
Ok, continue forum warrior'ing.
-Liang
It needed to be pointed out clearly as gourmie and his cohorts have a tendancy to include the drone DMG that is all thermal when deducting for EM as well as using levels of EM resists that ships do not fit.
And best of all ignoring that a amarr BS and others that are regularly fitted and flown have higher resists against kinetic and thermal than they give them credit for and in some cases higher than em and therm.
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Electric Universe
Minmatar The Choir
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Posted - 2009.03.23 20:01:00 -
[1195]
Originally by: ChalSto
Originally by: Electric Universe
Originally by: Childstar
Originally by: Electric Universe
Can i ask why you are comparing Blaster Mega at 4.5 km and then compare a Laser Abaddon at 15 km.
Hey smartpants. Compare 4.5 km to 4.5 km.
Im not,
The blaster ship only has a optimal of 0-4.5km at its max available damage.
While the laser ship has a 0-15km optimal at its max available damage.
Is this the best you can do?....
But then we can for sure say that your doing things here terribly wrong.
Good work for showing that you can't do the right math and do the right things when it's about comparing ships etc.
His math is right; its a realistic combat scenario and the outcome reflects current TQ game-mechanics and situations. The Baddon wins here....hands down and nothing to add or to critizise.
Yes his math is right at 15 km.
But try to fit an Abaddon with 1 HS II and a Megathron with 1x MFS II and compare them both at 4.5 km, who wins that again?.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2009.03.23 20:26:00 -
[1196]
Edited by: Trader20 on 23/03/2009 20:33:24 Awsome job on that info Childstar, you got me thinkin that blasters do need lookin at. But you are camparing Teir 2 and 3 ships but I have a feeling the hype wouldn't do any better .
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 20:27:00 -
[1197]
Originally by: Electric Universe
Yes his math is right at 15 km.
But try to fit an Abaddon with 1 HS II and a Megathron with 1x MFS II and compare them both at 4.5 km, who wins that again?.
The math is right at 4.5km and the fits used are those available and used by the ships in question on TQ.
Originally by: Electric Universe Childstar doesn't want to admit it that a Megathron inside the remote rep range is just extremely powerfull. So he have to use examples with an Abaddon with 3x HS II against a 2 MFS II fitted Mega at 15 km, just to prove that the Abaddon outdamage the Mega by some few DPS at 15 km lol.
THE EXAMPLE IS AT 4.5KM AND THE FITS USED ARE THOSE AVAILABLE AND USED BY THE SHIPS IN QUESTION ON TQ.
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Electric Universe
Minmatar The Choir
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Posted - 2009.03.23 20:33:00 -
[1198]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 23/03/2009 20:35:24
Originally by: Childstar
Originally by: Electric Universe
Yes his math is right at 15 km.
But try to fit an Abaddon with 1 HS II and a Megathron with 1x MFS II and compare them both at 4.5 km, who wins that again?.
The math is right at 4.5km and the fits used are those available and used by the ships in question on TQ.
Originally by: Electric Universe Childstar doesn't want to admit it that a Megathron inside the remote rep range is just extremely powerfull. So he have to use examples with an Abaddon with 3x HS II against a 2 MFS II fitted Mega at 15 km, just to prove that the Abaddon outdamage the Mega by some few DPS at 15 km lol.
THE EXAMPLE IS AT 4.5KM AND THE FITS USED ARE THOSE AVAILABLE AND USED BY THE SHIPS IN QUESTION ON TQ.
Use 1 HS II on the Abaddon and one MFS II on a Mega, then take with the drones DPS, and then do the mats on how the DPS is at 4.5 km.
It's not really worth to compare a 3 HS II fitted Abaddon to a 2x MFS II fitted Mega. It's better to use 1 damage mod on both, because both ships have the same amount of low slots.
Because using 3x HS II on an Abaddon is going to waste ALOT of your EHP bonus. Use the EHP so you can get an advantage with it.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.23 20:35:00 -
[1199]
Originally by: Childstar
Ok its ownage time...
I am sorry, what is your fit again?
(I.E. how much armor do you have to chew through, because that matters)
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Childstar
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Posted - 2009.03.23 20:35:00 -
[1200]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Ok RR gang, just looking at Aba, Geddon and Mega. RR Tank/Damage
RR Tank/Damage 2
till 25km+
Ok i have looked over these graphs and TBH i think they are a rather unrealistic.
Firstly the 2 x eanm tank + DCU you act like everybody will be shooting at is only actually used on the RR hyperion.
The mega cannot fit it due to CPU issues, the domi and phoon fit shown on here used a mix of active hardeners ect for a much better over all result and the abaddon that also fits it gets a bonus to its armour resists per level.
I think you should update the graphs in regards to reasonably available fits for the BS in question including how they would operate in a gang vs gang scenario where multiple racial RR BS are shooting at each other while buddies will be RRing them.
You should include the RR ships actual available/normal fits and the resistances each ship actually gets.
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