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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 04:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 04:40:27
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Rex Lashar How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else?
How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems.
A great opportunity is being laid at our, the rightious pod pilots of New Eden, feet to voice our will in a grand concerto of solidarity! If you want w-space to be truely free and wild then let CCP Whisper know you are behind his epic idea to make a genuine radical game mechanic change in how Eve is played for the betterment of us all.
Thumbs up if you are down with CCP Whisper. edit: whoops forgot to add the madatory Discuss! Flame! Troll Away!
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.02 04:33:00 -
[2]
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.02.02 04:52:00 -
[3]
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Leaving Eve
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:00:00 -
[4]
I agree with Whisper.
If it's unexplored territory, why would you get a local report?
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr Divinity's Edge
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Leaving Eve I agree with Whisper.
If it's unexplored territory, why would you get a local report?
You're not leaving eve!
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Diek Ran
Amarr Autonums
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:04:00 -
[6]
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eFart
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:05:00 -
[7]
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Bapfl
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:06:00 -
[8]
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Mat Vaila
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:07:00 -
[9]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:15:00 -
[10]
I still don't see what the big deal with local is
Keep local, remove the ability to see how many/who are in it. If you speak in it, people know you are there, if you don't, you are invisible.
Create a probe that can be launched and scan an entire system to see how many people are in it from any point in system, with no locational information at all. |
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rValdez5987
Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:29:00 -
[11]
I support this glorious idea.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: bff Jill I still don't see what the big deal with local is
Keep local, remove the ability to see how many/who are in it. If you speak in it, people know you are there, if you don't, you are invisible.
Create a probe that can be launched and scan an entire system to see how many people are in it from any point in system, with no locational information at all.
That is exactly what we mean when we say we want local 'removed'.
Now for those who are browsing the thread and are thinking onos no local and the pirates will get me. Yes this can happen if you are not paying attention but on the other hand it forces the aggressor to seek you out. Currently a prowling pvper can roam vast sections of space because all he has to do to find a target is see if someone is in local and do a check info then drop a probe. On the other hand a miner or ratter can instantly see the same and log. The amount of instantanious info that both persons get is immense and tbh kinda ruins the fun. However if there is no local then the aggressor has to meticulously scan out each and every system to find a target. This means as long as the person who wants to be left along is running an occasional scan for aggressors then he is safe. On the other hand it helps people looking for kills to for once have a chance to actually sneak up and kill a target. All in all its one of the vanishing few changes in the game mechanics that is completely unbiased and rewards the person who wants to actively and moar importantly smartly play the game be it a ganker or a carebear. Hopefully one day it can be applied to 0.0 but thats as far as I would support it outside of w-space and a battle for another day.
So again for no local in w-space!
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Lothros Andastar
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:34:00 -
[13]
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:36:00 -
[14]
You can't quantify local changes as a nerf or boost, as it affects everyone equally. Are you trying to spook people into being subjugated by your opinion of which is the better gameplay? Complaining about increased player interaction or player control is the equivalent of saying you're afraid of what it means for your ability to remain competitive.
If you were so adamant about being counter-revolutionary to anything that might make EVE more risky and competitive, then you completely ignored the little important tidbit they revealed about scanning changes:
Finding someone at exploration sites should be roughly the same, finding someone at off-plane agent mission sites should be significantly faster.
Which is about damn time.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:36:00 -
[15]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
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Soporo
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:48:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rex Lashar
You can't quantify local changes as a nerf or boost, as it affects everyone equally.
Are you trying to spook people into being subjugated by your opinion of which is the better gameplay? Complaining about increased player interaction or player control is the equivalent of saying you're afraid of what it means for your ability to remain competitive.
If you were so adamant about being counter-revolutionary to anything that might make EVE more risky and competitive, then you completely ignored the little important tidbit they revealed about scanning changes:
Finding someone at exploration sites should be roughly the same, finding someone at off-plane agent mission sites should be significantly faster.
Which is about damn time.
Yes you can because it is NOT equal to everyone. Takes a good scanner guy what? 30 seconds tops to jump in and scan someone down. Mobility and gank owns static and defense, it's always been like that. What's more stationary than anything eh? Miners and missioners and plexers. If you just want more and easier Industrials, miners and ratters just say so.
I'm not really against no Local, assuming they can implement some way by which the Miners and Haulers and Missioners can effectively see you as fast as you can see them, and not having to mash a scan button every 5 seconds either. |
Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:55:00 -
[17]
Did you step out from the deepest bowels of time? Last I played EVE (today), most people doing PVE were in deadspace. With static belts moving in that direction, your 30 seconds figure does not apply.
Nor do you know the specifics of any scanning and local changes. Does it still show the local count, but not the player list? Can you scan for cloaked ships? What is the range of probes and directional scanner?
I don't spin how awesome it would be without such details, so I don't think people should spin how terrible it will be either. Fact is, local is a restrictive and simple mechanic that leaves zero room for in-system maneuvers.
With regular space players have resorted to fighting across system boundaries and using jumpdrives to hotdrop. With WH space, both are intrinsically impossible. So unless they want to kill all non-consensual PVP in WH space, they need to do something about the instantaneous and accurate nature of local chat. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Soporo opps i thought we were talking about removing local in 0.0 or empire..
On topic please.
Also:
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
AdmiralDovolski
Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 05:36:10
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Rex Lashar How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else?
How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems.
A great opportunity is being laid at our, the rightious pod pilots of New Eden, feet to voice our will in a grand concerto of solidarity! If you want w-space to be truely free and wild then let CCP Whisper know you are behind his epic idea to make a genuine radical game mechanic change in how Eve is played for the betterment of us all.
Thumbs up if you are down with CCP Whisper. edit: whoops forgot to add the madatory Discuss! Flame! Troll Away!
YESSS
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 05:59:00 -
[20]
Oh, so its like that. I summon the power of bats in formation.
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:00:00 -
[21]
Wait, what is this thread about? Are you pro-Whispser or anti-Whisper?
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Major Deviant
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:01:00 -
[22]
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rex Lashar Wait, what is this thread about? Are you pro-Whispser or anti-Whisper?
Also:
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:05:00 -
[24]
WAT
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Soporo
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rex Lashar
So unless they want to kill all non-consensual PVP in WH space, they need to do something about the instantaneous and accurate nature of local chat.
Lol, oh cmon. Now you're using hot topic buzzwords. Even local as is wouldnt kill all non consensual pvp, otherwise no-one would ever die in K-space now. Like I said, as long as miners (mostly) don't get shafted and have some way to see you as fast as you see them then I guess it will be ok. Otherwise...meh.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: Rex Lashar
So unless they want to kill all non-consensual PVP in WH space, they need to do something about the instantaneous and accurate nature of local chat.
Lol, oh cmon. Now you're using hot topic buzzwords. Even local as is wouldnt kill all non consensual pvp, otherwise no-one would ever die in K-space now. Like I said, as long as miners (mostly) don't get shafted and have some way to see you as fast as you see them then I guess it will be ok. Otherwise...meh.
Miners have access to the same skills and info gathering modules and any other player. However mining in w-space is going to be harder than 0.0 due to the ai enabled rats that will avoid the standard bs tankers and commence to popping your mining ships left and right. That will be the biggest danger in w-space for non-combat oriented operations and local won't help you there. Also the nature of w-space means that there will be no huge threat from roving gangs and absolutely no threat from a cyno dropping cov ops. No local is perfect for w-space almost like it was designed for it.
Also: Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:23:00 -
[27]
Those are not buzzwords, I believe you're the one whose using it incorrectly and perpetuating the idea that they're meaningless buzzwords.
Non-consensual means that I'm not asking for your permission, or waiting on your decision to fight before killing you. People die in regular space during travel, or willful engagement of risky activities. They don't die during PVE, provided they do it in an empty system and pause the moment it changes.
There is zero room for any player skill on the hunter's part. Scoring a kill merely depends on the enemy allowing themselves to get killed through neglect of the tools they have available.
Farmers have scripts that don't get lazy or distracted, so they have efficient utilization of this mechanic. Seldom do they die, and that's just regular asteroid belts. The only time I've killed them is when they were unlucky enough to get scrambled at an easy to find belt.
If local doesn't get changed, the only way to have an impact on money-making ops is to change NPCs to scramble frequently, and ensure deadspace/mission sites don't mask their visitors' signature. It used to be that way for a few weeks after the launch of Revelations I, but people whined that missions were no longer treated as 'special' in comparison to asteroid belts.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:26:00 -
[28]
It's true...wormholes won't be instances, but lets make them just feel exactly like instances.
Not to mention, I know it is extremely fun having to probe all over every system over and over again to make sure there are no people or not.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:30:00 -
[29]
Why do you need to 'make sure' there are no people there? You some kind of control freak?
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Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:30:00 -
[30]
I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:32:00 -
[31]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt It's true...wormholes won't be instances, but lets make them just feel exactly like instances.
Not to mention, I know it is extremely fun having to probe all over every system over and over again to make sure there are no people or not.
Says the guys who will be taking full advantage of the fact that noone will instantly see him as his roving low mass velator fleet of doom rolls into a scouted out wormhole with a bunch of fat stupid juicy faction tank fitted hulks.
Also:
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:33:00 -
[32]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 06:34:07 Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 06:33:46
Originally by: bff Jill Why do you need to 'make sure' there are no people there? You some kind of control freak?
If I am looking for people it would seem like the only way to know if they are there or not.
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: An Anarchyyt It's true...wormholes won't be instances, but lets make them just feel exactly like instances.
Not to mention, I know it is extremely fun having to probe all over every system over and over again to make sure there are no people or not.
Says the guys who will be taking full advantage of the fact that noone will instantly see him as his roving low mass velator fleet of doom rolls into a scouted out wormhole with a bunch of fat stupid juicy faction tank fitted hulks.
Probably not, I'll get fed up after having to do that for five systems and go back to roving normally.
Originally by: CCP Prism X Local and Wormhole Space! Removing local from 0.0 has far reaching mechanical implications which are well beyond the scope of the project. Removing local just from wormhole space has been brought up but is not considered a part of the package we absolutely need to deliver. So it's not a top priority and thus hasn't been decided on. I'm somewhat afraid of people feeling it's too instanced if we do and 0.0 is not delayed. But like I said, outside of our scope. Were local to go away from 0.0 that will apply to wormhole space as well.
Now, perhaps we should argue about which Dev is right, or stop trying to pretend this is any different than any other "Local is dumb" thread.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:40:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 06:41:42
Originally by: An Anarchyyt Now, perhaps we should argue about which Dev is right, or stop trying to pretend this is any different than any other "Local is dumb" thread.
This is about backing CCP Whisper opinion of how to arrange the game mechanics of w-space and not an argument. The moar people who back his personal opinion the stronger his hand when he tries to play it. So as you guys are known griefers and love to do anything at all to make people sad pandas do you support CCP Whisper so you can have a chance to spread the Fame and Glory of the Greater Goon to uncharted space or are you wanting to keep the same old tired mechanics where as soon someone infos your pic in local and sees your corp they log and you get no pew pew.
Also:
Originally by: An Anarchyyt Probably not, I'll get fed up after having to do that for five systems and go back to roving normally.
Don't you have lackeys for that? I would if I was in your position.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:51:00 -
[34]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:54:00 -
[35]
See, The Greater Goon lives in Delve. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 07:08:00 -
[36]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt See, The Greater Goon lives in Delve.
Oh my apologies, sorry forgot that was actually a corp with a spotted history with the Goons. Guess I fail basic diplomacy. KK let me rephrase.
For the Fame and Greater Glory of the Goonswarm.
Also:
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.02 07:12:00 -
[37]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 06:34:07 Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 06:33:46
Originally by: bff Jill Why do you need to 'make sure' there are no people there? You some kind of control freak?
If I am looking for people it would seem like the only way to know if they are there or not.
Well yes but if you are dead set on finding people you are ready to start probing them out anyway. A slight more hassle perhaps? Sure.
But it also means that plenty of people who upon seeing someone enter local would start keeping a closer eye on their scanner than usual, will instead just be lazy and only casually glance at it, meaning that if someone IS there you have a better chance of finding them before they run off and escape!
So it basically pushes things even further into the proper eve mold of careful people have it pretty good and lazy/stupid people get blown up/scammed/harassed/whatever by careful people.
Which is how it should be.
also
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 07:30:00 -
[38]
No, not until there are better systems to see hostiles than mashing local scan every 30 seconds and hoping they are within 14 AU.
Most of the people in W space will not be in a deadspace area (at most some of the exploration sites will be in deadspace, but not even that is certain) and even with the current probes it will be easy to scan and pinpoint them from outside the range of the on board scanner.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 07:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Venkul Mul No, not until there are better systems to see hostiles than mashing local scan every 30 seconds and hoping they are within 14 AU.
Most of the people in W space will not be in a deadspace area (at most some of the exploration sites will be in deadspace, but not even that is certain) and even with the current probes it will be easy to scan and pinpoint them from outside the range of the on board scanner.
Good thing they are introducing a completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible probing system that will be available for use on any ship with the added feature of reuseable place anywhere you want warp capable probes.
Also: Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 07:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 07:37:03
Originally by: Venkul Mul No, not until there are better systems to see hostiles than mashing local scan every 30 seconds and hoping they are within 14 AU.
Most of the people in W space will not be in a deadspace area (at most some of the exploration sites will be in deadspace, but not even that is certain) and even with the current probes it will be easy to scan and pinpoint them from outside the range of the on board scanner.
Good thing they are introducing a completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible low fitting probe launcher system that will be available for use on any ship with the added feature of reuseable place anywhere you want warp capable probes.
And only finds exploration sites, not helping to detect enemy at all _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
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Norwest
Rymdvagnar AB
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Posted - 2009.02.02 07:51:00 -
[41]
I support this motion.
Do you have a newsletter? I may subscribe to it. ***** Rule 27: 'Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.' -The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates [schlockmercenary.com] |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 07:59:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Venkul Mul And only finds exploration sites, not helping to detect enemy at all
Hmmm. Thought they hinted that there would be the same two launcher types a 'big' do it all type and a 'small' ship/wormhole prober. Well if not then the 'big' launcher will still be an intergal part of your exploration fleet and so will have full access to every part of the new scanning mechanics. |
Alex V0X2
Minmatar Exiled. Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.02.02 08:29:00 -
[43]
Heard there was cake to be had if we agree too?
\o/ |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 08:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 05:36:10
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Rex Lashar How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else?
How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems.
A great opportunity is being laid at our, the rightious pod pilots of New Eden, feet to voice our will in a grand concerto of solidarity! If you want w-space to be truely free and wild then let CCP Whisper know you are behind his epic idea to make a genuine radical game mechanic change in how Eve is played for the betterment of us all.
Thumbs up if you are down with CCP Whisper. edit: whoops forgot to add the madatory Discuss! Flame! Troll Away!
I'm down. Delayed local!
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Kaivos
Caldari Pyydys
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Posted - 2009.02.02 08:35:00 -
[45]
i find it hard to believe that ships capable of interstellar travel don't have a simple automatic warning system that warns if other ships enter the same solar system.
local takes care of this now. but if its removed its going to be total **** to rat or do anything other than pvp. *smashes the scan button*
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Piotr Anatolev
Gallente The Geriatrics
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Posted - 2009.02.02 08:44:00 -
[46]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.02 08:47:00 -
[47]
well see due to light speed delay there is no way for your ship to detect the easily visible and blatantly obvious (in space) radiation that all of our ships are spewing every which way, until a certain amount of time has passed=p |
ori thermos
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Posted - 2009.02.02 08:48:00 -
[48]
Yer I agree lets get rid of local totally, saves on smack |
Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.02 08:51:00 -
[49]
I agree |
Mila Degosi
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:18:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Mila Degosi on 02/02/2009 09:20:19 I hadn't realized dropping a probe and scanning each and every system you wind up in was a fun gameplay mechanic. Obviously all you hardcore PVPers know better than me, because you like to blow stupid people up; but do you really need to remove local to do that? Seems to me replacing it with a different mechanic would just be a horrid timesink. Would you recommend an entirely different mechanic to replace it? Would you enjoy it more if you you had to drop a probe every 20 au of a system to determine if there were targets present? If you were to disable the display of specific individuals, but display purples, greens, and other mutual blues, would that be okay with you? |
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P CCP
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:19:00 -
[51]
I really appreciate how you've managed to imply that Whisper needs to fight his team over what nice to have's we'll push into the project, before release, through some weird game of leverages, cloaks and daggers. Sounds like good fun.
But I can't agree. An Anarchyyt has already tried to explain what I said in the comment thread (and I have the feeling you've tried to re-interpret that as me having something against removing local, let me correct that right now) and you've just danced around that. Here's my personal opinion (regardless of my feelings on local being removed all together): I'm not very comfortable with my work the past 3 months feeling any less like real EVE space ''just because''. Nor am I willing to devalue this new addition to EVE by making it some sort of test-ground for mechanical changes that can't even be tested there. Hidden space is not 0.0, it's not designed to be like 0.0, stop applying 0.0 to hidden space. If we were to roll this out with delayed local we'd have absolutely 0 information after 3 months as we would lack any control set to reference.
Like most people I play with I do want local gone. But not as an afterthought, nor as some research project. Bring some reasoning to the table. It's not enough to want free candy. Everyone wants free candy. But I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life. |
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:29:00 -
[52]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I really appreciate how you've managed to imply that Whisper needs to fight his team over what nice to have's we'll push into the project, before release, through some weird game of leverages, cloaks and daggers. Sounds like good fun.
I try.
Originally by: CCP Prism X But I can't agree. An Anarchyyt has already tried to explain what I said in the comment thread (and I have the feeling you've tried to re-interpret that as me having something against removing local, let me correct that right now) and you've just danced around that. Here's my personal opinion (regardless of my feelings on local being removed all together): I'm not very comfortable with my work the past 3 months feeling any less like real EVE space ''just because''. Nor am I willing to devalue this new addition to EVE by making it some sort of test-ground for mechanical changes that can't even be tested there. Hidden space is not 0.0, it's not designed to be like 0.0, stop applying 0.0 to hidden space. If we were to roll this out with delayed local we'd have absolutely 0 information after 3 months as we would lack any control set to reference.
Like most people I play with I do want local gone. But not as an afterthought, nor as some research project. Bring some reasoning to the table. It's not enough to want free candy. Everyone wants free candy. But I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
Awesome! Thanks for clarifying the info and now I can contunue planning out my first expedition.
p.s. Also wasn't implying you were not in favor of an eventual local removal I was just standing behind the dev who was offering what I and apparently others want and convieniently ignoring the opposition argument(An Anarchyrrt) no matter how much they might be (temporarily)correct. By all means take your time to impliment it and I will gleefully look forward to the day it happens and can be implimented CorrectlyÖ.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:33:00 -
[53]
What's good about introducing delayed local with w-space is exactly because it's not regular 0.0.
It's a matter of psychology. Every time you change something that's already there (e.g. instant local in 0.0) there is outrage by people who are used to how things are and will whine about any change.
But introduce it with a new feature - in this case w-space - old stuff (the known eve cluster) remains unchanged. It's easier to accept when it's just one new facet of a new featureset - instead of opening the can of worms that you get when you introduce it into what people already know. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:38:00 -
[54]
While I understand the reasoning for removing local (but not neccesarily agree to it) a big downside to me is the loss of interaction. Sure there's lots of people going "DON'T TALK IN LOCAL!!!!#@!@#" like they're mentally deranged and are uncapable normal conversation, but this is still an MMO and MMO's are about interaction.
Ofcourse you could say that that's what corps and alliances are for but if you never really chat/interact with others how will you ever meet new friends/adversaries. How BORING will it become!
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Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:41:00 -
[55]
Yes |
SentryRaven
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:45:00 -
[56]
Lots of pro's, lot's of cons. It all comes down to "adapt or die" in the end.
CCP, any chance of testing this on Sisi or Multi? |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Tzar'rim While I understand the reasoning for removing local (but not neccesarily agree to it) a big downside to me is the loss of interaction. Sure there's lots of people going "DON'T TALK IN LOCAL!!!!#@!@#" like they're mentally deranged and are uncapable normal conversation, but this is still an MMO and MMO's are about interaction.
Ofcourse you could say that that's what corps and alliances are for but if you never really chat/interact with others how will you ever meet new friends/adversaries. How BORING will it become!
Removing local does not mean removing the chat aspect just the neon sign effect when you jump into a system so everyone knows exactly who you are and can near instantly make a descision to fight or flee. Great for empire and to a much lesser extent 0.0 it just seems the total wilderness aspect of w-space would be enhanced in some peoples opinions including certain devs. but als implimentation with the now apparent ****ton of new features will be too much to Q&A properly so I guess time to put the initiative on hold until winter after they have time to digest the new W-space data.
Also: Still Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. if humanly possible. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.02 09:55:00 -
[58]
You can talk all you want but it still stands; if you lose the main way of interacting with unknown players you fall into some sort of autistic gameplay; everyone in their own little box of friends and no interaction at all.
Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse. Even better if that means that effort is rewarded over being passive. Still, simply removing it and going "there, that's done" is the wrong way to do it and I haven't come up, or read a realistic, reasonable and intelligent idea on how to change local without the downsides.
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Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:08:00 -
[59]
Put game mechanics aside for a moment, from a purly 'EVE lore' point of view there is no reason why a local wouldn't exist. Remember, unlike Startrek where ships warp to wherever they want, in Eve we must travel through star gates. These star gates appear to be massive cities in space (like stations) and the govern, record, prevent, alow, log and probably communicate with the entire 'gate network' every single jump and action that takes place - Which makes sense because otherwise systems wouldnt have a security status, and stargates wouldn't be able to prevent you from jumping just after you have initiated combat.
So, knowing this and imagining a super high-tech universe where computers are so powerfull they easily compute in Astrometric Units its virtually impossible to imagine that information about what ships are in a system(local) would be absent. In fact, the only reason I can see for someone being in a system and yet not reporting in local is if they by-pass the star-gate - As with what happens in 'W-Space'. (Unless of course there was some kind of law which prevented stargates from giving ships that kind of information.)
'Delayed local' Vs 'Chat reveal Local' - I understand Chat revealing local in W-Space but im not sure about delayed. There would have to be some kind of Sci-Fi reason why you are suddenly aware of other ships in the vastness of space other than just a simple 5 minute delay(or whatever).. If you use a probe and find someone, sure.. put him in local then, or if they get close enough to be on your overview... please, put some kind of technical reason there, rather than just a simple inexplicable delay.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:08:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse.
Wrong I want it removed for greater safety on my expeditions into w-space. Moast players are lazy and won't be arsed to have to go throught the motions of a quick manual scan at the planets and so will leave me alone. This promotes smarter tactics past probing out a wormhole checking local to see if someone is there and if not going to the next system. This puts all the power in the roamers hands as they only have to spend a few seconds to let let local load a system instead of having to do a proper scout. We will eventually have this feature as it just makes sense an all accounts in w-space but the devs have all the info so I will not emorage against their position just try to subtly(or not) bump up its sense of priority. |
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:14:00 -
[61]
we are just for the time being have to get used to wspace having an active local will help especially if u have a loose trading network of blues to identify if anyone who may have items for sale pops up |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:21:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 02/02/2009 10:23:52
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Tzar'rim Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse.
Wrong I want it removed for greater safety on my expeditions into w-space. Moast players are lazy and won't be arsed to have to go throught the motions of a quick manual scan at the planets and so will leave me alone. This promotes smarter tactics past probing out a wormhole checking local to see if someone is there and if not going to the next system. This puts all the power in the roamers hands as they only have to spend a few seconds to let let local load a system instead of having to do a proper scout. We will eventually have this feature as it just makes sense an all accounts in w-space but the devs have all the info so I will not emorage against their position just try to subtly(or not) bump up its sense of priority.
You're either trying to hide your true reasons or you're sorely mistaken. You are ofcourse right in stating that most people are alergic to effort but lets have a look at the 2 sides;
- someone in Wspace doing their thing, they're occupied with rats and most of them will be (lets be honest) PVEers who don't/can't understand anything over "more damage on my CNR" and "increase mining yield!!!". Result is them not paying attention too much
- a small group of active hunters trying to find some juicy targets, they got their scout, falcons, dps and neuts all ready to rock
Guess who'll benefit the most from removing local? I'm all for effort=benefits, it's my mantra so to speak and removing local would actually benefit my 'line of work'. But that doesn't automatically mean that I'll agree to it. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:24:00 -
[63]
Originally by: ollobrains2 we are just for the time being have to get used to wspace having an active local will help especially if u have a loose trading network of blues to identify if anyone who may have items for sale pops up
Any loose trading networks are going to be run out of empire. The utter randomness of w<>w connections will make any attempt at trading from within w-space highly erratic and possibly deadly if you jump into the wrong system. Basically the expedition leader makes deals with suppliers and when the stocks get low the expedition probes for an empire connection and asks for a delivery in it once found. This will require an anti-jita effect in that it will pay off big to have small stocks all over empire so when an opportunity arrives a trader can cash in with w-space residents in a hurry to dump stocks and resupply. Just think of the opportunities if a pos fuel supplier had all the required stocks everywhere and could guarrentee almost instand delivery no matter what system you pop out in. Removing local will greatly promote this effect I think. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:30:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Tzar'rim - someone in Wspace doing their thing, they're occupied with rats and most of them will be (lets be honest) PVEers who don't/can't understand anything over "more damage on my CNR" and "increase mining yield!!!". Result is them not paying attention too much
- a small group of active hunters trying to find some juicy targets, they got their scout, falcons, dps and neuts all ready to rock
Guess who'll benefit the most from removing local?
Thats easy. The group who has the greatest situational awareness of course. Will there be inattentive pvers? Yes, they will be the prey of the attentive hunters who are ****ed they missed the attentive ratters in the last hole and will as a result get an even greater rush off the kill. The strong prosper and the weak die. Everyone benefits in some way be it a well satified killer or an inattentive player who just got a wakeup call.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:31:00 -
[65]
Yaaarr. Remove local for W-Space. That would be a total new expirience and we could se how it works.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:36:00 -
[66]
Local in delayed mode, especially coupled with less boring probing mechanics sounds good. But the idea has a much further merit. CCP are often saying that they are considering to do something about local in 0.0. Of course, despite their intentions, they are very careful in doing this as it might have unpredictable effects on existing game mechanics.
Introducing the mechanic in a new part of the game, and seeing how it works is a good experimental practice. They can observe how good it works and see if it is a good idea to introduce it in 0.0, or bring even w-space to insta-local.
Personally I htink that delayed local is good.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:46:00 -
[67]
wont happen i dont think at least yet.... good points and bad points remembering there wont be a lot of peeps in wspace anyway |
Gneeznow
Minmatar Goo Spew
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:56:00 -
[68]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. DO IT FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:58:00 -
[69]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Nor am I willing to devalue this new addition to EVE by making it some sort of test-ground for mechanical changes that can't even be tested there. Hidden space is not 0.0, it's not designed to be like 0.0, stop applying 0.0 to hidden space. If we were to roll this out with delayed local we'd have absolutely 0 information after 3 months as we would lack any control set to reference.
Ops, didn't read that part. I didn't watch it form your perspective. Good point there.
Quote: Like most people I play with I do want local gone. But not as an afterthought, nor as some research project. Bring some reasoning to the table. It's not enough to want free candy. Everyone wants free candy.
Ok, this is my reasoning. I think that instant local IS the free candy. It basically gives too much information to both the attacker and defender. Of course they want the free intel, it makes things easier to both of them, without taking the hassle to learn part of the game. People have got so spoiled to know everything that goes in the system for free, that they whine about "AFK cloakers"... Information gathering is always a large part of warfare and you should NEVER be 100% sure about the info you gather.
Also it weakens the role of ships specialized to collect intel, like covops. You can get almost the same intel (and let the enemy know that you know) both with a covop and a shuttle. I think that is ridiculous.
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BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.02.02 10:59:00 -
[70]
I wouls also like to see local delayed/removed for a trial on several current EVE systems.
E.G. A fleet battle of 300 or so local stays. Much more htan this and it suddenly dissapears with only the amount in local showing up. This would make for some AWESOME suprise stunts EVE history
t2 precisions |
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:00:00 -
[71]
Oh oh another point in favor. Escort pilots in a commandship or orca are usually watching furry pron on a mining op simply because there is nothing else to do. Whoops no instalocal info so better mount a probe launcher and occupy yourself with running scans for ships and IIRC at the same time sites for your combat ships to run. It just gets better and better.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Aylara
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:01:00 -
[72]
I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems!
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Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:13:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Aylara I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems!
Delayed by how long? would this delay be a fixed time delay, or variable depending on the ship type, the W-space type or just completly random?
I know this is Science *Fiction* but it would be nice to see a scientific reason for this delay (all be it a fictional one) rather than... oh it just better for gameplay.
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:15:00 -
[74]
Most of us remember a bug which removed local for some hours after a patch a year ago. It was awesome. Till i started a 1v1 and 10sec later 10 more hostiles arrive and i have to bail. So yeah, removing local would not improve PvP one bit in my opinion, it would push it even too far, making big gangs and altscouts an absolute must, while stressing the need for cloaked or fast ships. Just undocking would become an act of suicidal behavior. Not to speak the scanner mechanic isnt ready for it.
Lets see how w-space plays out and then change the SOV system, and then talk about local again.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:18:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 11:21:44
Originally by: Sade Onyx
Originally by: Aylara I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems!
Delayed by how long? would this delay be a fixed time delay, or variable depending on the ship type, the W-space type or just completly random?
I know this is Science *Fiction* but it would be nice to see a scientific reason for this delay (all be it a fictional one) rather than... oh it just better for gameplay.
Idealy you won't show up in local unless you show up on the overview or you type something in local chat. A probe or the built in scanner should show only the ship if its uncloaked. Tbh I guess we need a clarification from the devs on what they mean by delayed local.
Originally by: Perry Most of us remember a bug which removed local for some hours after a patch a year ago. It was awesome. Till i started a 1v1 and 10sec later 10 more hostiles arrive and i have to bail. So yeah, removing local would not improve PvP one bit in my opinion, it would push it even too far, making big gangs and altscouts an absolute must, while stressing the need for cloaked or fast ships. Just undocking would become an act of suicidal behavior. Not to speak the scanner mechanic isnt ready for it.
Lets see how w-space plays out and then change the SOV system, and then talk about local again.
This is why I would only really be intersted in this feature for w-space. Unlike normal space there is no easy way to get backup quickley and with the ship mass restrictions the locals already in system will normally outnumber any invader cause the invaders will want a quick way out and will not have maxxed thier ship numbers and close the hole.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Shevar
Minmatar Target Practice incorporated
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:19:00 -
[76]
If you remove local it would be best to remove pilots in space and docked the last 30 minutes as well from the map.
Sure roaming gangs wouldn't like it because you can't spot npc'ers or miners or gatecamps (although pod killings also shows it) anymore without physically scanning them but otherwise you only remove the tools to detect the other side only for 1 side (the roamers, the map is useless to find them yet the map can be used to find people busy doing w/e).
--- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:25:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Shevar If you remove local it would be best to remove pilots in space and docked the last 30 minutes as well from the map.
Sure roaming gangs wouldn't like it because you can't spot npc'ers or miners or gatecamps (although pod killings also shows it) anymore without physically scanning them but otherwise you only remove the tools to detect the other side only for 1 side (the roamers, the map is useless to find them yet the map can be used to find people busy doing w/e).
Afaik there are not going to be any map statistics for w-space. I don't even think they are going to show up on the map at all even when you are in one though I'm sure it will let you at least see the planetary system section.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:29:00 -
[78]
Why is the database dev (CCP PrismX) so hardcore? Wanting local gone and everything, **** yeah! I imagine he is some super database nerd but maybe he is more like rambo, a rambo nerd that does database stuff and feeds on carebear souls. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:31:00 -
[79]
I seriously doubt they'll remove local without putting something else in it's place that is even worse. |
Talkietoaster
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:32:00 -
[80]
I support "delayed local" in w-space.
IMHO it goes like this:
In k-space (1.0-0.0) you have gates that let all non-cap ships in and out. So from a technical viewpoint if one could access (or hack into) stargate communications, you would be in a position to know who is in-system and who is not. Hence "local" as it is in k-space kinda makes sense.
In w-space however, there is no such hardware and so there is no communications where you could get that information from, so it makes absolute sense to have local in delayed mode.
my two isk/100 |
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Aylara
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:35:00 -
[81]
Reason: sadly, the local chat is the info tool with 100% certainty. Having this in WH space will certainly ruin player expectations towards real exploration. It will 100% kill the "into the unknown" feeling.
Quoting from the wormhole blog: "One of the criticisms that have been levied against EVE is that space is becoming crowded and that there really is no feeling of exploration. Indeed, from the very first moment you set foot in the universe of EVE, all of you have had a map at your disposal that shows you exactly where every solar system is, how to get there and what you may expect to find."
I might add to that sentence (even if this is actually covered by "expect to find"): who is in there.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:44:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Like most people I play with I do want local gone. But not as an afterthought, nor as some research project. Bring some reasoning to the table. It's not enough to want free candy. Everyone wants free candy. But I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
So why do you want local gone? Shouldn't you find reasoning in your desire to remove local, or is it some vague notion coming out of nowhere? If there indeed is so that 'most people' want local gone, then that in and of itself shows that there are reasons to remove it.
However, there are few ideas that show their true impact without research, we can speculate about local until we are blue in the face, but we would not see the real consequences of a lack of local (or it's complete removal) until it was implemented to a realistic scale. I don't agree with you that live "research projects" are necessarily a bad thing in and of themselves, I believe that properly used you can get a lot of good out of them. For instance, everyone was excited about faction warfare in the theoretical stage, but after it was implemented; you could see it's many flaws and loopholes. You can call it what you want, but Faction Warfare in no way is a finished product, it's basically the research project that you claim is an undesirable element.
The real issue is what you do with the data, the feedback and the results you get from these "research projects". If you can't follow through and finish what you started (as with Faction Warfare) then, but only then do I agree with you that "research projects" are a bad thing. But only in it's lack of followups, not as a concept.
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Dristra
Amarr Idle Haven
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:50:00 -
[83]
Anon local could work, but you need to make the scanner automatic, so you just get this "radar" that shows stuff in a XX au range around your ship.
Originally by: CCP Atropos the physics engine has balls
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:51:00 -
[84]
generally if local is quite most of the time peeps iwll go afk its going to be unlucky for u to get a lot of traffic through youre local wsystem if anyone turns up the other option is u might be able to trap them in youre space by collapsing the wormhole and if u have a pos and a few peeps online single targets after pvp might find it fun if u collaspe a hole on em
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Catrina Denaries
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:52:00 -
[85]
I support this with all of my bleeding heart. NO insta-local-info in WH space! ----- The yarr is strong with this one. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:55:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Talkietoaster I support "delayed local" in w-space.
IMHO it goes like this:
In k-space (1.0-0.0) you have gates that let all non-cap ships in and out. So from a technical viewpoint if one could access (or hack into) stargate communications, you would be in a position to know who is in-system and who is not. Hence "local" as it is in k-space kinda makes sense.
In w-space however, there is no such hardware and so there is no communications where you could get that information from, so it makes absolute sense to have local in delayed mode.
my two isk/100
Damn, I was hoping to save that point for later use but yes indeed it is a good rp reason.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Aeo IV
Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation
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Posted - 2009.02.02 11:56:00 -
[87]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Like most people I play with I do want local gone.
Just to point this out, anecdotes aren't very good arguments, because people typically hang out with people of similar views.
I'd say that most people *I* hang out with in eve don't want to see local removed, for example.
It you serve you well if you tried to find out what the majority of players really did want, rather then assuming your small slice of EVE is a representative example of EVE's viewpoints.
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Odyessus
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:00:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Odyessus on 02/02/2009 12:01:02 thumbs up
maybe its me, but sometimes in eve, and especially in high sec, i just wanna be alone to do my business. its nice (that sounds ghey) to know this for certain using local. however, i agree with whisper. you may all cry: "huh?!". i agree because lets face it, we are flying internet spaceships. internet spaceships have the tech to know who is in the local system - the onboard scanner. where is this 'local chat' tech coming from? it seems its addition is purely for convenience rather than roleplay.
so, delay/scrap local in 0.0 & Wspace, and increase the range of the onboard scanner so it can pick up the whole system.
ody
ps: the devblog mentioned why this game mechanic would be difficult to change, cause delaying/scrapping local in wspace means it would have to be done in 0.0. the implications of this change in game mechanics is far reaching. im thinking - attack of the blobs (on ur door step)...
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P CCP
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:02:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Aeo IV Just to point this out, anecdotes aren't very good arguments, because people typically hang out with people of similar views.
I'd say that most people *I* hang out with in eve don't want to see local removed, for example.
It you serve you well if you tried to find out what the majority of players really did want, rather then assuming your small slice of EVE is a representative example of EVE's viewpoints.
Isn't this a rather redundant attack on my post? It's quite clear from the pronoun I use and the fact that I mention people I play with, rather than all of EVE, that I was referring to a personal opinion held be me and those I associate with in game?
And ain't that why I posted here in the first place? I'm interested in the reasons and rationale of other people than me? Dude?
~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:08:00 -
[90]
LEAVE LOCAL ALONE -----------------------------------------
Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:08:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Tzar'rim You can talk all you want but it still stands; if you lose the main way of interacting with unknown players you fall into some sort of autistic gameplay; everyone in their own little box of friends and no interaction at all.
That paragraph makes no sense at all. It was already explained to you that local still works for chatting. You can initiate convos all you like. Besides corp, alliance, public channels and voice services all will still work - so how did you cook up that autistic scenario above?
The low sec mining op doesn't chat via local - they use gang chat. The incoming pirate doesn't chat in local until *after* the kill when he brags about it.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse.
You are very much mistaken. I want "delayed" local (you see - it's still there - just doesn't show people until they start convo - which they still can do any time they want) even though I never ganked innocents (hey - WT ain't innocents :-) ) at gate and have no intention of ever going pirate.
I want danger. I want interesting. I want challenging. Delayed Local (you don't appear in list until you write in local) improves challenging for *everybody*.
The very same feature that helps the ganker also helps the potential gankee. :-)
Sure - innocent little mining/ratting/missioning op doesn't see ebil bunch of pirates appear in system - unless they have scouts doing probes. But at the same time pirates can't just roam through 20 systems quickly and check within a second if there are potential targets in system. They have to put in a bit of effort too - send scouts around, make guesses about what systems are more likely to have targets. They'll roam less systems in a given timeframe - which - if you happen to be in a nice off-the-beaten-path system means you'll be safer for longer than you were before (though *feeling* less safe at the same time - good thing).
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Even better if that means that effort is rewarded over being passive. Still, simply removing it and going "there, that's done" is the wrong way to do it and I haven't come up, or read a realistic, reasonable and intelligent idea on how to change local without the downsides.
Ahem - that debate happened couple years ago - and never quite stopped. Some of it even realistic and reasonable. |
Zaknussem
Caldari Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:13:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Zeba However mining in w-space is going to be harder than 0.0 due to the ai enabled rats that will avoid the standard bs tankers and commence to popping your mining ships left and right.
Question: Is this something you know for a fact, or just another assumption on your behalf? This thread sadly contains too much of the latter.
I remain neutral on the thread topic itself, as I am not in a position to judge whether local is broken in any way, nor do I have any suggestions to improve it. |
Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:22:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Zeba Tbh I guess we need a clarification from the devs on what they mean by delayed local.
Agreed
Originally by: Perry Most of us remember a bug which removed local for some hours after a patch a year ago. It was awesome. Till i started a 1v1 and 10sec later 10 more hostiles arrive and i have to bail. So yeah, removing local would not improve PvP one bit in my opinion,
What this highlights is that removing Local will widen the gap between new players and experienced players, well actually it would make these two classes of players so far apart that you may as well split Eve into two servers. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:24:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 11:09:49
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Rex Lashar How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else?
How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems.
A great opportunity is being laid at our, the rightious pod pilots of New Eden, feet to voice our will in a grand concerto of solidarity! If you want w-space to be truely free and wild then let CCP Whisper know you are behind his epic idea to make a genuine radical game mechanic change in how Eve is played for the betterment of us all.
Thumbs up if you are down with CCP Whisper. edit: whoops forgot to add the madatory Discuss! Flame! Troll Away!
Now with added dev content! Please read the whole thread and give your approval for making this feature a development priority only after careful thought.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
remove local entirely in w-space ... |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:24:00 -
[95]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:25:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Zeba However mining in w-space is going to be harder than 0.0 due to the ai enabled rats that will avoid the standard bs tankers and commence to popping your mining ships left and right.
Question: Is this something you know for a fact, or just another assumption on your behalf? This thread sadly contains too much of the latter.
Its an educated guess based on info gleened from dev posts and my own personal knowledge of programming ai to make tactical and strategic descisions in a hobby enviroment.(SupCom. Sorian is a God.) The devs have stated the ai will switch targets under changing scenarios and I can't help but think the programmers paid just that little bit moar attention to the "Pillage Teh Player Mining Op" script. |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:34:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Zeba However mining in w-space is going to be harder than 0.0 due to the ai enabled rats that will avoid the standard bs tankers and commence to popping your mining ships left and right.
Question: Is this something you know for a fact, or just another assumption on your behalf? This thread sadly contains too much of the latter.
We don't know how much "harder" they'll be. But we know from devblog that officer spawns in eve-space and Seeker npcs in w-space are supposed to get new and improved AI. I assume the idea behind giving them AI is not to make them behave as simplistic as usual npcs - otherwise there would be no point. So whether they turn out to be real hard or not - it's safe to assume that they are supposed to be tough.
*If* that includes switching targets - or making more reasonable target selections in the first place - then - yes - mining would get harder. Potentialy *a lot* harder.
Standard practice for mining ops in 0.0 has been for years to send in well-tanking BS/Carrier in first and collect all aggro (not killing rats so they don't respawn).
Classic rats don't change targets usually - so next come in the 6 barges and strip the ark belt for hours while the deadly flotilla of rat npcs keeps shooting uselessly at the tank they'll never break.
Even the slightest change in that predictable behaviour would change all 0.0 mining. Notice that in eve-space only officer spawns are going to get AI for now - so most 0.0 mining can go on unchanged.
With even slightly less predictable rats hauler and barges would be fitted a bit differently and a mining op would need more firepower to fight off rats in time before they wipe out all barges.
One fact that too many in empire don't know - there is nothing more carebearish than mining within core of alliance territory. You get plenty warning before invaders cross border systems. The rats never target you. The macros didn't wipe the belt days ago. No random low sec gankers to threaten your mining op. No war declaration bothering you at all. You can have more risk for less value mining in high sec empire than in well run alliance space. Core alliance space *is* high sec if your alliance territory is big enough.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:41:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 07:37:03
Originally by: Venkul Mul No, not until there are better systems to see hostiles than mashing local scan every 30 seconds and hoping they are within 14 AU.
Most of the people in W space will not be in a deadspace area (at most some of the exploration sites will be in deadspace, but not even that is certain) and even with the current probes it will be easy to scan and pinpoint them from outside the range of the on board scanner.
Good thing they are introducing a completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible low fitting probe launcher system that will be available for use on any ship with the added feature of reuseable place anywhere you want warp capable probes.
Also:
Question: this is an attempt at misinformation or simply you are bad at reading comprehension?
The "completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible low fitting probe launcher system" work only to find anomalies, it will not find ships .
To make it even better probes will be totally removed from the list of items you can scan for. So with the new probing system under development there is no way to detect a cloaked prober. And no way to detect an enemy ship with the low fitting probe launcher.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:49:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 07:37:03
Originally by: Venkul Mul No, not until there are better systems to see hostiles than mashing local scan every 30 seconds and hoping they are within 14 AU.
Most of the people in W space will not be in a deadspace area (at most some of the exploration sites will be in deadspace, but not even that is certain) and even with the current probes it will be easy to scan and pinpoint them from outside the range of the on board scanner.
Good thing they are introducing a completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible low fitting probe launcher system that will be available for use on any ship with the added feature of reuseable place anywhere you want warp capable probes.
Also: Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Question: this is an attempt at misinformation or simply you are bad at reading comprehension?
The "completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible low fitting probe launcher system" work only to find anomalies, it will not find ships .
To make it even better probes will be totally removed from the list of items you can scan for. So with the new probing system under development there is no way to detect a cloaked prober. And no way to detect an enemy ship with the low fitting probe launcher.
I think you may be slightly incorrect on one point Venkul-
I think that the dev blog said that probes wouldn't be able to be probed out, not that they don't show up on the scanner. So people will still be able to see probes out in space, you just can't get a hit on one and warp to it. |
Element 22
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:49:00 -
[100]
Reserved, it's a big post |
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Element 22
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:50:00 -
[101]
Another reserve, I did say it's a big post didn't I |
RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:51:00 -
[102]
I support local being delayed in 0.0 and W-Space.
Further i would like to see -5 sec status pilots and below that sec not appearing in ANY local in the game unless they speak in it first.
Outlaws and pirates broadcasting their presence to potential victims? That is just idiocy, breaks immersion and panders to those that dock up the moment anything Red enters system. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:56:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Tzar'rim Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse.
Wrong I want it removed for greater safety on my expeditions into w-space. Moast players are lazy and won't be arsed to have to go throught the motions of a quick manual scan at the planets and so will leave me alone. This promotes smarter tactics past probing out a wormhole checking local to see if someone is there and if not going to the next system. This puts all the power in the roamers hands as they only have to spend a few seconds to let let local load a system instead of having to do a proper scout. We will eventually have this feature as it just makes sense an all accounts in w-space but the devs have all the info so I will not emorage against their position just try to subtly(or not) bump up its sense of priority.
You're either trying to hide your true reasons or you're sorely mistaken. You are ofcourse right in stating that most people are alergic to effort but lets have a look at the 2 sides;
- someone in Wspace doing their thing, they're occupied with rats and most of them will be (lets be honest) PVEers who don't/can't understand anything over "more damage on my CNR" and "increase mining yield!!!". Result is them not paying attention too much
- a small group of active hunters trying to find some juicy targets, they got their scout, falcons, dps and neuts all ready to rock
Guess who'll benefit the most from removing local? I'm all for effort=benefits, it's my mantra so to speak and removing local would actually benefit my 'line of work'. But that doesn't automatically mean that I'll agree to it.
To add to your good post, lets look how it will work for the scanner in the two groups:
- roaming gang scanner: enter system, drop probes, scan for target ships and next wormhole at the same time. If he find nothing at the first or second try, recall probes and jump outside the WH space. Time needed? 2-5 minutes.
- PvE/Miners group scanner: drop probes, scan to see if someone enter the system, repeat, repeat, repeat and so on, until the gang has cleared the system, completed the mining op and is ready to leave the system. Time spent clicking "scan"? several hours, without doing anything different and in a ship that probably will be incapable of doing anything different. Mining ice is more exciting.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.02.02 12:56:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 11:09:49
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Rex Lashar How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else?
How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems.
A great opportunity is being laid at our, the rightious pod pilots of New Eden, feet to voice our will in a grand concerto of solidarity! If you want w-space to be truely free and wild then let CCP Whisper know you are behind his epic idea to make a genuine radical game mechanic change in how Eve is played for the betterment of us all.
Thumbs up if you are down with CCP Whisper. edit: whoops forgot to add the madatory Discuss! Flame! Troll Away!
Now with added dev content! Please read the whole thread and give your approval for making this feature a development priority only after careful thought.
Wasn't the entire point of PrismX's post that he'd love to see local replaced, while simultaneously expressing how there is a need for a surrogate system that provide basic intelligence, and isn't worse than what local is now?
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:02:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Evelgrivion Wasn't the entire point of PrismX's post that he'd love to see local replaced, while simultaneously expressing how there is a need for a surrogate system that provide basic intelligence, and isn't worse than what local is now?
If you had did as I asked in the op and read the entire thread before commenting you would have realised that I'm asking for it to be noticebly moved up the priority list for development hopefully to be implimented in m10 and not 'lulz i rwantin no loclz nao doo eet nao nao nao!!!1111'
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:10:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Venkul Mul - PvE/Miners group scanner: drop probes, scan to see if someone enter the system, repeat, repeat, repeat and so on, until the gang has cleared the system, completed the mining op and is ready to leave the system. Time spent clicking "scan"? several hours, without doing anything different and in a ship that probably will be incapable of doing anything different. Mining ice is more exciting.
As I stated in an earlier post the npc are not going to be pushovers and the majority of miners in a w-system are going to want maximum yield so a well tanked orca or command ship is going to be a given along with your combat ships. Now last time I remember doing that job is even less appealing than mining ice so why not stick a probe launcher on and scan for ships and sites as you relax to the gentle whoosh of the strip miners? I know your just trying to bring some spice to the thread but at least get your argument right. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:13:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Venkul Mul
The "completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible low fitting probe launcher system" work only to find anomalies, it will not find ships .
To make it even better probes will be totally removed from the list of items you can scan for. So with the new probing system under development there is no way to detect a cloaked prober. And no way to detect an enemy ship with the low fitting probe launcher.
I think you may be slightly incorrect on one point Venkul-
I think that the dev blog said that probes wouldn't be able to be probed out, not that they don't show up on the scanner. So people will still be able to see probes out in space, you just can't get a hit on one and warp to it.
I asked that question on the thread and got no reply.
In this post I used "scan" as a synonym of "probe", not as a reference to the directional scanner.
So to rephrase: a probe will not be a selectable category when you are using a probe launcher and probes to probe a system .
No idea if the probes (charge) will appear on the directional scanner, but the directional scanner has a operative range way shorter than the current existing probes.
We really need a set of synonyms for scan e probe.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:16:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Venkul Mul - PvE/Miners group scanner: drop probes, scan to see if someone enter the system, repeat, repeat, repeat and so on, until the gang has cleared the system, completed the mining op and is ready to leave the system. Time spent clicking "scan"? several hours, without doing anything different and in a ship that probably will be incapable of doing anything different. Mining ice is more exciting.
As I stated in an earlier post the npc are not going to be pushovers and the majority of miners in a w-system are going to want maximum yield so a well tanked orca or command ship is going to be a given along with your combat ships. Now last time I remember doing that job is even less appealing than mining ice so why not stick a probe launcher on and scan for ships and sites as you relax to the gentle whoosh of the strip miners? I know your just trying to bring some spice to the thread but at least get your argument right.
What part of "click scan every 30 seconds for 5 hours is bad" are you missing? |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:21:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 13:23:01
Originally by: Venkul Mul What part of "click scan every 30 seconds for 5 hours is bad" are you missing?
Wrong mindset for the target player. The exploration and industrial people who will be attracted to this space are raised on the roid scanner and staggering miner II or strips to pull ore out every 30 seconds to get just that little bit extra yield out of an osprey or retreiver. The probers are about the same only its the rescan button instead of dragging ore. They will gladly and easily hit the scan button to stay safe just like they did with the miners.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Denaris Aschanna
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:29:00 -
[110]
So how about if local was set to delayed mode, but every time you ran a scan it would make your presence known to others in the system to some extent?
Not necessarily make you appear in local, but possibly a message flashing up on your screen along the lines of 'Scan pulse detected'. To my mind if you're sending out active scanning signals it's going to light you up like a christmas tree with the amount of energy required for sending out a scan.
This would have the advantage of a: AFK people not paying attention would miss the message, b: People actually watching what they were doing would have some warning and could decide whether or not to safespot, run a scan themselves etc.. just an idea..
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:30:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 02/02/2009 13:31:23
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Tzar'rim Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse.
Wrong I want it removed for greater safety on my expeditions into w-space. Moast players are lazy and won't be arsed to have to go throught the motions of a quick manual scan at the planets and so will leave me alone. This promotes smarter tactics past probing out a wormhole checking local to see if someone is there and if not going to the next system. This puts all the power in the roamers hands as they only have to spend a few seconds to let let local load a system instead of having to do a proper scout. We will eventually have this feature as it just makes sense an all accounts in w-space but the devs have all the info so I will not emorage against their position just try to subtly(or not) bump up its sense of priority.
Hmm... I have to agree with Tzar'rim. I've been on both ends of scanning someone out in 0.0 and it takes virtually no time at all to pop into the system and use the directional scanner to find miners. In fact I've seen it done so fast in heavily belted systems that the miners don't have time to warp out even WITH local instantly telling them there's a bad guy present.
Making local "delayed mode" would only benefit the pirates that are good with the directional scanner as the other scanner options take way to long to be useful. From what I understand the W-Space wormhole drop in points will be random (I might be wrong here). If that's so then miners or ratters will have absolutely no way to counter the directional scanner of pirates since they can't point at the drop points and scan back. That would be terrible from a design/balance standpoint making W-Space much worse for law abiding citizens than even empire low sec.
Edited for spelling ---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:33:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 02/02/2009 13:33:15
Originally by: Denaris Aschanna So how about if local was set to delayed mode, but every time you ran a scan it would make your presence known to others in the system to some extent?
Not necessarily make you appear in local, but possibly a message flashing up on your screen along the lines of 'Scan pulse detected'. To my mind if you're sending out active scanning signals it's going to light you up like a christmas tree with the amount of energy required for sending out a scan.
This would have the advantage of a: AFK people not paying attention would miss the message, b: People actually watching what they were doing would have some warning and could decide whether or not to safespot, run a scan themselves etc.. just an idea..
Now there is an idea I can get behind! They'd need to remove the directional scanner first though. ---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:34:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Denaris Aschanna So how about if local was set to delayed mode, but every time you ran a scan it would make your presence known to others in the system to some extent?
Not necessarily make you appear in local, but possibly a message flashing up on your screen along the lines of 'Scan pulse detected'. To my mind if you're sending out active scanning signals it's going to light you up like a christmas tree with the amount of energy required for sending out a scan.
This would have the advantage of a: AFK people not paying attention would miss the message, b: People actually watching what they were doing would have some warning and could decide whether or not to safespot, run a scan themselves etc.. just an idea..
Thats a good idea. Kinda like a trip line with some cans. But it would only work if you have a deployed ship scan probe set to passive scan. Maybe a new scan type for the new probe mechanics?
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Revan Starstrider
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:34:00 -
[114]
Reasons to have no local/ talk-activated local:
1. Improves immersion. No more looking in local to see how many enemies are in the system so you can bring more. 2. As an extension to #1, imagine having to actually gauge what type and what amount of ships to bring to a fight. Exciting. 2. The talk-activated local destroys the argument that removing local will kill social activities; those who want to talk may talk and be seen in local, those who dont, will not show up. 3. Ratters dont want local removed. They want to be safe. After reading lots and lots of threads, I still dont know how to make them happy if local is removed. They seem to offer no arguements other than dont remove local.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:41:00 -
[115]
The key to redeveloping local is in fact redeveloping the scanner: If I open my scanner, it's a pretty sure thing that I want to use it... so why not make the scanner more like the overview, and have it update itself periodically rather than manually?
It's a small change that'd make all the difference. It's often put forward that the onboard scanner is more useful to the hunter than the hunted, and if that's a concern then this simple change remedies that. |
Zaknussem
Caldari Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2009.02.02 13:54:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Zeba Its an educated guess based on info gleened from dev posts and my own personal knowledge of programming ai to make tactical and strategic descisions in a hobby enviroment...The devs have stated the ai will switch targets under changing scenarios and I can't help but think the programmers paid just that little bit moar attention to the "Pillage Teh Player Mining Op" script.
Unless the AI team has found a way to make Sleepers multitask in combat in a sensible manner (scram the haulers, jam the gankers, kill the haulers, for example) then the Sleepers are only going to be a nuisance instead of a real threat. The ability to switch targets is useless if there's no real AI to call the shots.
What you know of AI programming sadly means nothing in this case unless you're on the CCP AI team. When it comes to CCP and upcoming features in EvE, I have learned that even cautious optimism can lead to disappointment...and new NPC AI is actually one feature I'd like to see CCP pull off in style.
In short, your assumptions aren't doing anyone any favours. I suggest that you stick to the facts, and not try to make your guesswork come off as facts. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:02:00 -
[117]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I really appreciate how you've managed to imply that Whisper needs to fight his team over what nice to have's we'll push into the project, before release, through some weird game of leverages, cloaks and daggers. Sounds like good fun.
But I can't agree. An Anarchyyt has already tried to explain what I said in the comment thread (and I have the feeling you've tried to re-interpret that as me having something against removing local, let me correct that right now) and you've just danced around that. Here's my personal opinion (regardless of my feelings on local being removed all together): I'm not very comfortable with my work the past 3 months feeling any less like real EVE space ''just because''. Nor am I willing to devalue this new addition to EVE by making it some sort of test-ground for mechanical changes that can't even be tested there. Hidden space is not 0.0, it's not designed to be like 0.0, stop applying 0.0 to hidden space. If we were to roll this out with delayed local we'd have absolutely 0 information after 3 months as we would lack any control set to reference.
Like most people I play with I do want local gone. But not as an afterthought, nor as some research project. Bring some reasoning to the table. It's not enough to want free candy. Everyone wants free candy. But I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
but... local is Free Candy. |
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P CCP
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:04:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Par'Gellen stuff
That's using the noggin'!
Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat. Sadly it was way too much work to expect it to work with our current release schedule as well as it having some technical issues (We really can not have people pressing scan every 5 seconds and receive a huge record set over the wire. That's way to close to a nuke node button.) but --> personally, as in me, only me, not CCP, not all of EVE, just me, I only speak for me <-- found the concept to reek of the awesome old sub games I used to play when I was young and stupid..er.
The only reason I'm telling you this is so you understand that we view removing local as a huge mechanical change, for 0.0. We'd really want something as awesome as that design to replace it there. That has nothing to do with wormhole space lacking local chat as my only reason for that is having local delayed there and nowhere else creating a feeling of instancing and utter solitude in an MMO.
However, I'm not adamant on it in any sense. It's quite possible that I'm being overly defensive regarding my work. I do try and keep my draconian attitude in check so I allow for that possibility. So post on. With the caveat that absolutely nothing is promised (as it is in real life when we exchange ideas.. but I know it's pretty futile bringing RL sense into forums. ) |
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Mihaill Blackthorn
Gallente Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:05:00 -
[119]
Forces an aggressor to seek you out? What crap statement is that? You know darn good and well if there is no local all the groups will do is sit on the gate and gank over and over like it's an npc spawn.
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: bff Jill I still don't see what the big deal with local is
Keep local, remove the ability to see how many/who are in it. If you speak in it, people know you are there, if you don't, you are invisible.
Create a probe that can be launched and scan an entire system to see how many people are in it from any point in system, with no locational information at all.
That is exactly what we mean when we say we want local 'removed'.
Now for those who are browsing the thread and are thinking onos no local and the pirates will get me. Yes this can happen if you are not paying attention but on the other hand it forces the aggressor to seek you out. Currently a prowling pvper can roam vast sections of space because all he has to do to find a target is see if someone is in local and do a check info then drop a probe. On the other hand a miner or ratter can instantly see the same and log. The amount of instantanious info that both persons get is immense and tbh kinda ruins the fun. However if there is no local then the aggressor has to meticulously scan out each and every system to find a target. This means as long as the person who wants to be left along is running an occasional scan for aggressors then he is safe. On the other hand it helps people looking for kills to for once have a chance to actually sneak up and kill a target. All in all its one of the vanishing few changes in the game mechanics that is completely unbiased and rewards the person who wants to actively and moar importantly smartly play the game be it a ganker or a carebear. Hopefully one day it can be applied to 0.0 but thats as far as I would support it outside of w-space and a battle for another day.
So again Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. for no local in w-space!
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Mr Xanatos
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:07:00 -
[120]
No insta local in W-Hole space please. I plan to spend a lot of time exploring this new content and an insta local would ruin it for me. I want true exploration, I dont want to feel safe, I want to be on the edge of me seat trying to rat, salvage, scan, explore and the whole time not knowing what (or who) is around the next corner.
If there is a regular local and it spikes then i'll just cloak up or leave the W-Hole, I might aswell just go to null or low sec to rat.
Insta local will wreck W-Hole space, lets have an area of Eve that truely gives pilots some adventure and suprises. |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:09:00 -
[121]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Par'Gellen stuff
That's using the noggin'!
Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat. Sadly it was way too much work to expect it to work with our current release schedule as well as it having some technical issues (We really can not have people pressing scan every 5 seconds and receive a huge record set over the wire. That's way to close to a nuke node button.) but --> personally, as in me, only me, not CCP, not all of EVE, just me, I only speak for me <-- found the concept to reek of the awesome old sub games I used to play when I was young and stupid..er.
The only reason I'm telling you this is so you understand that we view removing local as a huge mechanical change, for 0.0. We'd really want something as awesome as that design to replace it there. That has nothing to do with wormhole space lacking local chat as my only reason for that is having local delayed there and nowhere else creating a feeling of instancing and utter solitude in an MMO.
However, I'm not adamant on it in any sense. It's quite possible that I'm being overly defensive regarding my work. I do try and keep my draconian attitude in check so I allow for that possibility. So post on. With the caveat that absolutely nothing is promised (as it is in real life when we exchange ideas.. but I know it's pretty futile bringing RL sense into forums. )
Don't you realise that that feeling of "utter solitude" is exactly what so many of us want. Vast swaths of utterly empty, dark, cold space. Not a sign of another sentient life-form. Perfect silence...
OH GOD OH JESUS THEY GOT ME SCRAMMED WTF WTF HELP HE>>>> carrier lost
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:12:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Zaknussem Unless the AI team has found a way to make Sleepers multitask in combat in a sensible manner (scram the haulers, jam the gankers, kill the haulers, for example) then the Sleepers are only going to be a nuisance instead of a real threat. The ability to switch targets is useless if there's no real AI to call the shots.
What you know of AI programming sadly means nothing in this case unless you're on the CCP AI team. When it comes to CCP and upcoming features in EvE, I have learned that even cautious optimism can lead to disappointment...and new NPC AI is actually one feature I'd like to see CCP pull off in style.
In short, your assumptions aren't doing anyone any favours. I suggest that you stick to the facts, and not try to make your guesswork come off as facts.
Your overcomplicating the process. The key to sripting competent ai is to make it as simple as possible. Basically on warp in the ai check to see what is in the area vs what they have. An algorythm is then run to determine which script to execute. Numbers indicate 'pillage the miners ver.b7' is optimal and simply tells the rats to ignore the drones and combat ships so they can scram and kill any barges mining frigs or cruisers based off the data. All done with just a few lines of code and a few script calls. (and tons of Q&A bug fixing.)
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Mr Xanatos
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:13:00 -
[123]
Just to add, I'm planning to go to W-Hole space for fun, not for the isk, lets keep it fun and adventure. If I want isk I can grind my boring lvl4/5's while watching tv at the same time.
Insta Local will take away the fun and adventure imo |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:18:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Mihaill Blackthorn Forces an aggressor to seek you out? What crap statement is that? You know darn good and well if there is no local all the groups will do is sit on the gate and gank over and over like it's an npc spawn.
Gate? What gate. |
Cass Tamuri
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:19:00 -
[125]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:23:00 -
[126]
Actually now that I think about my previous post a bit I realize that with no local in W-Space and random drop in points the pirates would be virtually untouchable while allowing them to harrass law abiders with impunity.
Hell they wouldn't even NEED the directional scanner because they could just fly around from belt to belt at their leisure and pop anyone they find. It would be WORSE than having local like it is now.
Bad guy drops into W-Space system. Does a quick unidirectional scan at max range looking for other players. Sees some and just flies around till he finds them while they have no idea he's even there until the shooting starts. Bad. Very bad.
Think about it. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:32:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 14:34:23
Originally by: CCP Prism X Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat.
Picket probes. Probes that have a long duration passive mode to listen for any electronic signals ie active search probes or built in scanners. Second mode is short range short duration mass detection to sit near a known wormhole or in your mining belt/plex/whatever to register any incoming ships including cloaked.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Khaelis
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:34:00 -
[128]
I approve of delayed local in W-space.
I think it would work well with the concept of unexplored space. Pilots in W-space will have to be cautious at all times if they do not want to be caught by surprise and that is the way it should be! Hit that scan button like it dispensed ferrogel. (Ok not that much, do think of the node)
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:38:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Par'Gellen Think about it.
We are. Notice all the brainstorming going on? Care to add a few ideas of your own? |
Liz Laser
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:43:00 -
[130]
I can't help but feel that this is simply a disguised "miners and ratters exist solely to be ganked" thread.
I'll admit that local is a weird game mechanic, but ganking (or at least halting/disrupting) mining ops is already way too easy REGARDLESS of the existence of local. |
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:50:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Liz Laser I can't help but feel that this is simply a disguised "miners and ratters exist solely to be ganked" thread.
I'll admit that local is a weird game mechanic, but ganking (or at least halting/disrupting) mining ops is already way too easy REGARDLESS of the existence of local.
Carebears aren't people, they're giant flying loot dispensers. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:50:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Liz Laser I can't help but feel that this is simply a disguised "miners and ratters exist solely to be ganked" thread.
I'll admit that local is a weird game mechanic, but ganking (or at least halting/disrupting) mining ops is already way too easy REGARDLESS of the existence of local.
Good thing we are only talking about w-space and not empire. Besides the rats are going to be much much moar of a constant nusance than a random gang of pirates who just happened to scan out the 1 w-system out of 2500 that has you in it. I think people are still thinking in terms of a set connection of systems and not the totaly random connections that will be what happens when you scan from k space to w space. |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:10:00 -
[133]
Delayd local in wormholes, sure, ehy not? Its not established space. Delayed loacl in 0.0? No, I do not agree. that just measn everyone will die to roaming gang if they themswlf is not in one. It promotes blobs at a huge degree. |
Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:12:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Par'Gellen Think about it.
We are. Notice all the brainstorming going on? Care to add a few ideas of your own?
Actually sure! Here is what I would do if I were in charge. Some of this goes beyond the scope of this topic but hey you asked
- Convert local to delayed mode for the entire universe.
- Proceed with the changes outlined for probes in the W-Space blog.
- Introduce NPC mercs that can be hired as protection (because lets face it nobody wants to sit and guard you mining for hours only to watch you die in a spectatular explosion before they can even lock the bad guy no matter how good a friend they are).
- Give mining barges the ability to actually defend themselves and still be mining barges. Very powerful automated defense systems comes to mind. If a pirate wants to crack one he better bring buddies. I'd make them something like the equivalent of a faction fitted omni-tanked Dominix with the defensive only firepower of a Nightmare. All automated of course to avoid abuse. They really shouldn't be big candy bags made of paper like they are now.
- Introduce a counter to bubbles and dictor spheres (probably the most overpowered rediculous poo in the game in my opinion).
- Remove celestial objects like belts and stuff from the overview and warp-to list. These things should only be exploration findable.
- Remove the directional scanner. If you don't use probes you shouldn't be able to find anything.
That's what I would do if I had the big dev whacking stick. |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:13:00 -
[135]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/02/2009 14:09:16
Originally by: Denaris Aschanna stuff
Submarine combat.
If i'm thinking/imagining this correctly, holy ****nap this would be awesome. |
Setanta Spartan
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:15:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Zeba
Good thing we are only talking about w-space and not empire. Besides the rats are going to be much much moar of a constant nusance than a random gang of pirates who just happened to scan out the 1 w-system out of 2500 that has you in it. I think people are still thinking in terms of a set connection of systems and not the totaly random connections that will be what happens when you scan from k space to w space.
Hmm, good point. There will be 2500 wormhole systems with random wormholes connecting them intermittently to regular space and other wormholes.
Eve tops out at approx 45k users at the weekend. If every pilot managed to get into a wormhole at the exact same time then thatÆs an average of 18 pilots per wormhole. I some how doubt that everyone is suddenly going to go into the wormhole business at the same time. So if only 10% of peak users show interest and are present in wormholes at the same time, then thatÆs 1.8 players per wormhole and you will be 1.0 of that 1.8 . Lets all remember that not everyone is looking to gank you, some of us are actually friendly.
Now back to topic, no local please or maybe a delayed so someone can try ask for help in dealing with a rat, needing repairs, ammo trade etc
Reminds me of a Voyager episode
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:32:00 -
[137]
What about a delayed mode that works like so:
Idea: If a pilot has been in local for X amount of time he shows up as present in local via the regular means. This contrary to the delayed mode, where you actually have to speak in local to show up.
Consequences: a) A person ratting would have to move between systems to reliably be undetected in local. b) An 'afk cloaker' would always show up in local. c) The hunter has a timeframe of X to find a ratter without showing up in local.
Addendum: If X amount jumps into local at the same time, everyone of them show up in local at once.
Consequence:
a) A fleet jumping into local will make itself known to everyone in local directly. b) Smaller gangs, individuals will not.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:19:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Zeba Now for those who are browsing the thread and are thinking onos no local and the pirates will get me. Yes this can happen if you are not paying attention but on the other hand it forces the aggressor to seek you out. Currently a prowling pvper can roam vast sections of space because all he has to do to find a target is see if someone is in local and do a check info then drop a probe. On the other hand a miner or ratter can instantly see the same and log. The amount of instantanious info that both persons get is immense and tbh kinda ruins the fun. However if there is no local then the aggressor has to meticulously scan out each and every system to find a target. This means as long as the person who wants to be left along is running an occasional scan for aggressors then he is safe. On the other hand it helps people looking for kills to for once have a chance to actually sneak up and kill a target. All in all its one of the vanishing few changes in the game mechanics that is completely unbiased and rewards the person who wants to actively and moar importantly smartly play the game be it a ganker or a carebear. Hopefully one day it can be applied to 0.0 but thats as far as I would support it outside of w-space and a battle for another day.
I have not read the whole thread but I think you are over stating the trouble gankers will have as opposed to ratters.
Pirates need not scan the whole system. EVE is setup to have people in belts and such. Gankers can just roam the belts and find you. Or they can cloak up in a belt and wait for explorers to come to them. Un-cloak...*wham*. The guys who just came in system will have zero clue you are there...even if the *do* drop probes. Bring a bigger gang? Well fine except now the cloakers just stay cloaked. They are ideally set to do whatever they want on their own terms. That does not seem balanced to me.
There needs to be some reasonable way for people to know other people are out there so they can decide on their next approach. I am not opposed to making it something they have to work towards but it needs to be balanced. For instance making belts or anywhere really (except moons/planets) something that *must* be probed for to be found. Then, if that probe "pings" the system everyone in the system knows a ping went off. Does not tell them how many people are out there or anything but lets them know *someone* is out there and looking.
I would also suggest that with no local cloaked players could be semi-spotted. Not spotted as in you know where they are but spotted as in you know they are out there somewhere when you probe the system.
Just to be clear I kind of like the idea of no local but I think you really must think through all the knock-on effects such a thing would entail and account for them. Just tearing it out wholesale with no other mechanic changes I think would be a bad thing.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:33:00 -
[139]
I remember those submarine games, they were about the only thing my first comp could run well
I would love to see such mechanics in Eve and I don't think constant "pings" would be a server breaking mechanic either.
Like pings in the sub games, a constant scanner wouldn't need to show ship types and names like the current scanner does, just distance and estimated size (or maybe energy output in Eve). Instead of details on a 200 ship fleet, you just get a big blob :)
At any rate, I hope the Devs use W-space as a testing ground for local changes that will be brought into normal space.
Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew! |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:51:00 -
[140]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 16:57:27
Someone want to explain how delayed local isn't some sort of gigantic buff to roaming gank squads?
If you're meaning local only refreshing say once every 5 minutes so you can't tell who left when and who joined when within the last 5 minutes I can see some merit to it.
Personally I'd be FAR happier with local intel gone altogether in its current form, but I'd like to keep local chat in some way.
While being able to keep track of your friends and wartargets a bit more easily somehow... |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:00:00 -
[141]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 16:57:27
Someone want to explain how delayed local isn't some sort of gigantic buff to roaming gank squads?
If you're meaning local only refreshing say once every 5 minutes so you can't tell who left when and who joined when within the last 5 minutes I can see some merit to it.
Personally I'd be FAR happier with local intel gone altogether in its current form, but I'd like to keep local chat in some way.
While being able to keep track of your friends and wartargets a bit more easily somehow...
Because they wont have a magic amulet of detecting easy targets. |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:10:00 -
[142]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Mooble Marble
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:22:00 -
[143]
I would love to see this. It would add to the feeling of exploration, and the cold emptiness of space.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:25:00 -
[144]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat.
I believe Eve had a radar once, ad we all know how that ended.
Anyway, a discussion on removing local is almost useless without talking about what to replace it with. If you remove local, or put it in a delay, we get into that horrible territory of, "Make Eve a boring job" where finding something takes doing the same thing over and over again.
Assume both sides are reasonably competant at the moment.
The attacker has to look over and over again in every single system. Not only do they not know if someone is in that system without looking, but they have no idea who may be nearby to even know if anyone is coming. The only way to know is just to hang around staring at an empty star gate in a cov ops for as ever long as it takes.
Now, maybe there are people who would enjoy having to probe over and over again in every single system, but mostly people would likely get fed up with the fact that you get to do the same boring thing over and over again with chance based results and no idea if your hits or lack are even accurate.
Then, the defender, who doesn't need to even use probes, as he doesn't need warp ins, just uses the directional scanner, over and over again. Depending where they are, they may very well have everything important in Directional scanner range. All they need is a ship or a probe to appear on the scanner and they hit the cloak button.
Attacker maybe gets a hit before the cloak. However, then they spend the next 20 minutes trying to figure out if they cloaked or left system.
And on and on we go. So, with this current system, how does that not make it easier defend, while making attacking a chore? This discussion is pointless without any talk of new mechanics that don't involve you hitting a button every five seconds. |
Guttripper
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:30:00 -
[145]
Perhaps I missed it as I briefly read through this thread and did not notice it in the dev blog, but I would think (do not want to assume) that W-space will have no security rating and thus no Concord interaction either, correct? |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:31:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Guttripper Perhaps I missed it as I briefly read through this thread and did not notice it in the dev blog, but I would think (do not want to assume) that W-space will have no security rating and thus no Concord interaction either, correct?
It will have a security rating, it'll just be 0.0 |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:41:00 -
[147]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt And on and on we go. So, with this current system, how does that not make it easier defend, while making attacking a chore? This discussion is pointless without any talk of new mechanics that don't involve you hitting a button every five seconds.
As I mentioned above attackers can assume ratters are in the belts. Ratters have no clue the gank squad is on its way till they see their ships appear next to them.
That or just cloak up some Recons in a belt and wait like a spider for someone to roam into the net. If they look like someone you can take have at it. If they don't stay cloaked.
Regardless of who has it "easier" I absolutely agree just yanking local is not the answer (although overall I like the idea of it getting replaced as an intelligence tool). Another mechanic would need to replace it.
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:51:00 -
[148]
@CCP PrismX
You know what is most frustrating about this whole mess?
We've given years, and years, and years of feedback, design documents, rationalization, requests for prioritization, pleas for mercy and any last ounce of attention to the matter of local chat.
You're essentially asking for more of that, while confirming that CCP already has work done in the area but chose not to prioritize it in yet another expansion. This is going to be the third full overhaul of scanning since the start of retail. Each time CCP have stated that nothing can be done to local chat until it comes time to change scanning, so that's three opportunities I've seen come and go.
Last year, Zulupark mentioned local changes were in the works for 1H 2009. Now it's been reduced to the position of 'maybe, if we have enough time' once more.
Oveur brought this up almost five years ago, in response to years of complaints. What more do you expect to hear that hasn't already been said a hundred different ways? Local chat ****ing sucks. It sucks massive space ****s.
It's one of the most commonly posted gameplay issues on the forum, and even the majority of people debating with the proponents of local chat removal agree that it could stand to be improved.
Entire new generations of players have all come to the SAME CONCLUSIONS on their own. Old vets who've never seen a tech 2 ship before are coming back to a completely different and evolved MMO: except for the idiocy of local chat.
I'm sorry, but you can't seriously expect us to keep holding out for this epic overhaul that is currently resting in some limbo state on somebody's desk for the past five years. Whatever happened to Cowboy Mode?
Quote: "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week."
Your reluctance for changing it essentially boil down to
- feeling of instancing - feeling of emptiness - inferior implementation - anti 'testbed'
The first two I don't even understand, because the idea that you might not be alone in a system keeps you on edge. While knowing you're definitely alone has made people realize just how dead lowsec really is. As for instancing, well that's largely the fault of new WH mechanics, isn't it? What does local have to do with that? You know what makes me feel this game has instancing more than anything?
I jump into a system with 5 enemies mining in an exploration site. I could technically, via game mechanics, enter the same area as those five players. But practically it's not going to happen. Ever. They just instadock the moment I enter local. I've had to put up with that for weeks at a time during corp war, without so much as locking an enemy ship. Local contributes more to the feeling of deadspace being instanced gameplay than any other scenario I could imagine.
But back to the discussion.. Using your own candy metaphor I will explain some things.
First, you underestimate how much bad candy we can eat after 6 years of cabbage. Second, you don't realize it would not be an EVE-wide change and the people who absolutely hate it still have options. Third, if future revisions are really in the pipeline then it's not an apocalyptic scenario where you permanently ruined something. And lastly..
WH space has no gate PVP or cyno hotdrops. Where and how exactly do you expect non-consensual PVP to occur? I enter a WH system with local giving away my presence, everyone warps to their POS. Now what? I can't sit on the other side of the gate, because the gates are constantly moving. I can't bait with inferior numbers and drop in a Carrier. WH space is fundamentally different, and you should look at a local change not as using WH space into a guinea pig, but as a restoration of the basic player interaction that currently exists in k-space.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:53:00 -
[149]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 17:56:27
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: An Anarchyyt And on and on we go. So, with this current system, how does that not make it easier defend, while making attacking a chore? This discussion is pointless without any talk of new mechanics that don't involve you hitting a button every five seconds.
As I mentioned above attackers can assume ratters are in the belts. Ratters have no clue the gank squad is on its way till they see their ships appear next to them.
That or just cloak up some Recons in a belt and wait like a spider for someone to roam into the net. If they look like someone you can take have at it. If they don't stay cloaked.
Regardless of who has it "easier" I absolutely agree just yanking local is not the answer (although overall I like the idea of it getting replaced as an intelligence tool). Another mechanic would need to replace it.
If I am in 0.0, I can possibly assume that they are in belts. However, there is not much more chance they are ratting in belts versus doing exploration sites or missioning (in those areas).
Like I said, assume the same competency, the defending is constantly using his directional scan, so he will have an idea before they appear in belts.
And I don't know about you, but do you really think sitting cloaked in a belt for hours waiting for someone who may or may not come is something most people won't find absolutely horrid?
Side note on the post above me: I bet talking like a kid throwing a temper tantrum is the best way to deal with everything.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:00:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 02/02/2009 18:01:15
Originally by: An Anarchyyt If I am in 0.0, I can possibly assume that they are in belts. However, there is not much more chance they are ratting in belts versus doing exploration sites or missioning (in those areas).
Like I said, assume the same competency, the defending is constantly using his directional scan, so he will have an idea before they appear in belts.
And I don't know about you, but do you really think sitting cloaked in a belt for hours waiting for someone who may or may not come is something most people won't find absolutely horrid?
Side note on the post above me: I bet talking like a kid throwing a temper tantrum is the best way to deal with everything.
Well...are there going to be exploration sites in W-Space? Or are most people going to be ratting in belts for Sleeper ships to get the T3 loot?
I suppose somewhere down the line sitting in a belt for hours does sound awful. But this is not the 0.0 we have today with vast tracks of empty, unused space. There will be 2,500 systems and probably 20,000+ people (just a guess but I figure everyone and their cat will have a go) trying to dive in on the first few weeks at any given time. On average there will be 10 (or so) people per system. Yeah...I know it will not work out just like that but I think it is safe to say lurking in a belt to gank ratters will probably net the pirates a steady stream of targets at the outset.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:08:00 -
[151]
Personally I've always despised the notion of Local. It's just such a grossly unfair source of intel (which I use to my advantage as well). You don't need to bother scouting, you just keep an eye on Local. You don't need guards for a mining op, you just watch Local. You don't need to bother to learn how to use a scanner, you have Local. You cannot trap or be trapped as long as you pay attention to Local. You don't really need to put out any effort at all because Local gives you (at least) a 30-45 second headstart. It is just completely f-tarded. Make Local like Alliance chats.
And don't even get me started on the non-consenual Buddy List. I don't want certain people to know when I've logged on. I don't want them docking up just because my pic shows up in the lower righthand screen. I don't want them to have free no-effort no-risk intel on me.
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:09:00 -
[152]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 18:11:01
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Well...are there going to be exploration sites in W-Space? Or are most people going to be ratting in belts for Sleeper ships to get the T3 loot?
I suppose somewhere down the line sitting in a belt for hours does sound awful. But this is not the 0.0 we have today with vast tracks of empty, unused space. There will be 2,500 systems and probably 20,000+ people (just a guess but I figure everyone and their cat will have a go) trying to dive in on the first few weeks at any given time. On average there will be 10 or so people per system. Yeah...I know it will not work out just like that but I think it is safe to say lurking in a belt to gank ratters will probably net the pirates a steady stream of targets at the outset.
There will be exploration sites. Exactly how the NPCs will work and all of that is an unkonwn. My thoughts is that it will work some way like certain parts will be the NPC loot, while reactions and whatnot will be exploration based (or perhaps faction spawns as well). This also does not preclude the possibility of new NPC agents in Space.
If this were to happen, I think we would see most w-space PvP devolve into, find wormhole, send frigate, or shuttle, or pod, to see what is on the other side. If it is empire, look for anyone else around/hostile gangs. If this is case, you wait for them, or try and bait them with a small bait ship on the other side of the hole. Perhaps you scan for ships while waiting on the other side, but the method of least resistance is what is always more likely to happen.
Now, if we see local removed anywhere, my first thought is along with what Prism mentioned. However, it would be some sort of automatic passive sonar, which worked maybe once in ~30 seconds. This would give you the number of ships, and perhaps their standings to you(we haven't even discussed how bad it would be to waste all that time probing only to find a gang of blues yet). Corp/Alliance isn't all that important if you know they're red.
As an aside, from someone who regularly works with intel and recon, this is not nearly as simple as you think.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:25:00 -
[153]
Yeah. It makes no sense for local to even exist in W-space, since nobody has any presence there, and there aren't even gates.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:27:00 -
[154]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 18:29:46
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 16:57:27
Someone want to explain how delayed local isn't some sort of gigantic buff to roaming gank squads?
If you're meaning local only refreshing say once every 5 minutes so you can't tell who left when and who joined when within the last 5 minutes I can see some merit to it.
Personally I'd be FAR happier with local intel gone altogether in its current form, but I'd like to keep local chat in some way.
While being able to keep track of your friends and wartargets a bit more easily somehow...
Because they wont have a magic amulet of detecting easy targets.
Ummm they do, it's called the directional scanner.
Can find anyone not in a safespot in any small system in about 20 seconds and tells you the ship type,
Why, are they removing it or something?
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SirFett
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:27:00 -
[155]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: CCP Prism X Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat.
I believe Eve had a radar once, ad we all know how that ended.
Anyway, a discussion on removing local is almost useless without talking about what to replace it with. If you remove local, or put it in a delay, we get into that horrible territory of, "Make Eve a boring job" where finding something takes doing the same thing over and over again.
Assume both sides are reasonably competant at the moment.
The attacker has to look over and over again in every single system. Not only do they not know if someone is in that system without looking, but they have no idea who may be nearby to even know if anyone is coming. The only way to know is just to hang around staring at an empty star gate in a cov ops for as ever long as it takes.
Now, maybe there are people who would enjoy having to probe over and over again in every single system, but mostly people would likely get fed up with the fact that you get to do the same boring thing over and over again with chance based results and no idea if your hits or lack are even accurate.
Then, the defender, who doesn't need to even use probes, as he doesn't need warp ins, just uses the directional scanner, over and over again. Depending where they are, they may very well have everything important in Directional scanner range. All they need is a ship or a probe to appear on the scanner and they hit the cloak button.
Attacker maybe gets a hit before the cloak. However, then they spend the next 20 minutes trying to figure out if they cloaked or left system.
And on and on we go. So, with this current system, how does that not make it easier defend, while making attacking a chore? This discussion is pointless without any talk of new mechanics that don't involve you hitting a button every five seconds.
this this a 1000 times this
unless local is replaced by another means of displaying constant up to date player count of who and what the ramifications are huge even if you replace local the ramifications are still huge
going from stuff like server dieing because a mere 100 people constantly get updated information (you know because even with local seconds may decide over life and death ... ) and if you spin the idea of having a submarine sonar type of pinging thing youd think mighty space aliens would have grapsed the concept of IFF long ago so you know who what and where your friends are (hint : blue list) so any other blimp you havent seen before might just be the enemy also consider : a big blimp might just be a big ship ... wich might just be a battleships hmmmm yes you can even find out the rough shiptypes by blimp resonses on your radar sonar thing wich just makes it redicolously easy to find people in a solar system without the need to run long (lol long) probing cycles and even easyer to figure out fleet composition and crap like that
on the other hand we got things like "hire npc's" and other stuff yeah way to go we need even more blobbing in this game >_<
deal with it local is the simplest tool there is for this game without making it a ******ed but required chore to constantly scan for new targets wether you are the agressor or the defender and it is also the tool that gives you the least amount of information in a not particularly convenient way any other tools to display information would inherently come with a far easyer way to display and format information perhaps even coming with more information
or would you be happy in getting a kettle with dozens of holes in it ? id sure feel cheated on that ....
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VoiceInTheDesert
Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:38:00 -
[156]
Originally by: bff Jill I still don't see what the big deal with local is
Keep local, remove the ability to see how many/who are in it. If you speak in it, people know you are there, if you don't, you are invisible.
Create a probe that can be launched and scan an entire system to see how many people are in it from any point in system, with no locational information at all.
I'm pretty sure that probe already exists....I think it takes astro 5 though.
Seriously though, local is gay and it would be nice for w-space to be the first (hopefully not last) part of eve to see it gone.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:47:00 -
[157]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/02/2009 14:09:16
Originally by: Denaris Aschanna stuff
That's using the noggin'!
Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat. Sadly it was way too much work to expect it to work with our current release schedule as well as it having some technical issues (We really can not have people pressing scan every 5 seconds and receive a huge record set over the wire. That's way to close to a nuke node button.) but --> personally, as in me, only me, not CCP, not all of EVE, just me, I only speak for me <-- found the concept to reek of the awesome old sub games I used to play when I was young and stupid..er.
Please stop working everything else and implement this.
Quote: The only reason I'm telling you this is so you understand that we view removing local as a huge mechanical change, for 0.0. We'd really want something as awesome as that design to replace it there. That has nothing to do with wormhole space lacking local chat as my only reason for that is having local delayed there and nowhere else creating a feeling of instancing and utter solitude in an MMO.
As already mentioned here, uncharted space needs to feel like uncharted space. Current Local will make it feel like some "mission instance". Please make Local delayed in W-systems. ...
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:51:00 -
[158]
The thing with local chan is, that the current arguments are rather unsatisfactory.
Keeping local provides knowledge to a player, enhances social play, prevents surprise and defeats stealth tactics.
Removing local obliterates that knowledge, kills social play and over compensates in the provision of surprise and stealth tactics.
Removing local whilst improving the scanning mechanism will, almost certainly, have an impact upon calls to the server (lag inducing) - as any request to 'find information' through a scan will necessitate a call to the server.
What the topography of EVE lacks is terrain. There are no folds in the ground, valleys or patches of long grass. These 'characteristics' provide the fog of war, the fundamental question of "what's over that hill?"
Rather than make an entire system devoid of local, apply dead spots within the systems. For example, if you're in close proximity to an asteroid belt you are removed from the local channel. Essentially you can see 'out' of the belt, whilst others cant see 'in'.
Potentially different 'terrain types' like this would have varying effects (perhaps some areas blind you to 'local') applied by timers, mass, ship type, aggro and so forth.
EVE doesn't need to be swathed in darkness, what it needs are patches of deep shadow.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Psychotic Turtle
Minmatar Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:59:00 -
[159]
I can understand having local in empire, its supposedly controled space, I can even understand local in 00, we use jump gates built by the old empires. I can immagine jump gates keeping track of local trafic. How can you justify to me, who or what keeps track of local trafic in "uncharted" 00? I am not a role player, but still there has to be some sort of justification for a game mechanic at the end of the day.
P.S.
No local in Uncharted 00 please. ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use one that works - Fallout |
Rhaegor Stormborn
H A V O C Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:04:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 02/02/2009 19:03:52
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:11:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Psychotic Turtle I am not a role player, but still there has to be some sort of justification for a game mechanic at the end of the day.
Due to the nature of pod pilot ships, they all broadcast a similar nature of signal, which contains a unique ID, such as a license plate for terrestrial vehicles. Upon entering a system, via wormhole, stargate, cyno field, or any other method, your ship starts broadcasting this signal. At the same time your scanners begin to look for and receive any active signals on these frequencies. These signals are then looked up in a standard database that is on exists on all ships, constantly updated via a central server housed in the depths of the CONCORD Assembly.
Due to the nature of these pseudo-licenses, any pilot will not only know within seconds who the pilot is, and be able to look up their information and employment history, but they will also immediately have an IFF display as well. These IFF displays come from similar databases on ships that are maintained by the pilot's corporations and alliances, to avoid unfortunate friendly fire incidents.
-------------------
A bit crude, but there you go, RP reason for why this works. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:12:00 -
[162]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat.
Did they fix the problems with that model(post 38+) when it was first brought up?
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
However, there are few ideas that show their true impact without research, we can speculate about local until we are blue in the face, but we would not see the real consequences of a lack of local (or it's complete removal) until it was implemented to a realistic scale.
Yes, we can. It just takes some rational thought. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:26:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 16:57:27
Someone want to explain how delayed local isn't some sort of gigantic buff to roaming gank squads?
If you're meaning local only refreshing say once every 5 minutes so you can't tell who left when and who joined when within the last 5 minutes I can see some merit to it.
Personally I'd be FAR happier with local intel gone altogether in its current form, but I'd like to keep local chat in some way.
While being able to keep track of your friends and wartargets a bit more easily somehow...
Because they wont have a magic amulet of detecting easy targets.
No, they will have a magical wand of "drop probe and scan the whole system in 30 seconds then warp to target".
Possibly staying cloaked the whole time.
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Psychotic Turtle
Minmatar Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:44:00 -
[164]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Psychotic Turtle I am not a role player, but still there has to be some sort of justification for a game mechanic at the end of the day.
Due to the nature of pod pilot ships, they all broadcast a similar nature of signal, which contains a unique ID, such as a license plate for terrestrial vehicles. Upon entering a system, via wormhole, stargate, cyno field, or any other method, your ship starts broadcasting this signal. At the same time your scanners begin to look for and receive any active signals on these frequencies. These signals are then looked up in a standard database that is on exists on all ships, constantly updated via a central server housed in the depths of the CONCORD Assembly.
Due to the nature of these pseudo-licenses, any pilot will not only know within seconds who the pilot is, and be able to look up their information and employment history, but they will also immediately have an IFF display as well. These IFF displays come from similar databases on ships that are maintained by the pilot's corporations and alliances, to avoid unfortunate friendly fire incidents.
-------------------
A bit crude, but there you go, RP reason for why this works.
LOL dude, you might as well have said "magic". I guess if you read enough sci-fi you can justify anything. Still uncharted space should be a new experience, not just a fancier 00. |
Thynar
Gallente Melita Foundation
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:51:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Thynar on 02/02/2009 19:51:42 Edited by: Thynar on 02/02/2009 19:51:24
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 14:35:38 Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 14:34:23
Originally by: CCP Prism X Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat.
Picket probes. Probes that have a long duration passive mode to listen for any electronic signals ie active search probes or built in scanners. Second mode is short range short duration mass detection to sit near a known wormhole or in your mining belt/plex/whatever to register any incoming ships including cloaked.
edit: or picket drones. Same uses only all ships can have some.
The concept is already valid in real life. The US has deployed sonabouys all over the world's oceans especially the Atlantic. They give intel that needs to be interpreted back at base. It takes x amount of time to setup but gets rid of the "scan every 30 seconds" while still requiring the player to pay a modi****of attention.
Wouldn't really know how to balance range, setup duration, intel obtained, cost, volume etc but it might work.
Edit: m.o.d.i.c.u.m. is a filtered word |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:58:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Setanta Spartan
Originally by: Zeba
Besides the rats are going to be much much moar of a constant nusance than a random gang of pirates who just happened to scan out the 1 w-system out of 2500 that has you in it. I think people are still thinking in terms of a set connection of systems and not the totaly random connections that will be what happens when you scan from k space to w space.
Hmm, good point. There will be 2500 wormhole systems with random wormholes connecting them intermittently to regular space and other wormholes.
Eve tops out at approx 45k users at the weekend. If every pilot managed to get into a wormhole at the exact same time then thatÆs an average of 18 pilots per wormhole. I some how doubt that everyone is suddenly going to go into the wormhole business at the same time. So if only 10% of peak users show interest and are present in wormholes at the same time, then thatÆs 1.8 players per wormhole and you will be 1.0 of that 1.8 . Lets all remember that not everyone is looking to gank you, some of us are actually friendly.
Now back to topic, no local please or maybe a delayed so someone can try ask for help in dealing with a rat, needing repairs, ammo trade etc
Reminds me of a Voyager episode
the number cited by the devs was 2000+ but:
1) there are at least 3 tiers of wormholes: a) those accessible by high sec; b) those accessible by 0.0 (and I assume low sec); c) those accessible oly from other WH systems.
2) at least half of those 40K characters will be in high sec;
3) every WH system will have at least 1 WH open
So let's hypothesize that 5% of all players are interested in finding WH systems; that make 2.000 players scanning at the same time, 1.000 for them will be in high sec. So half of the system in high sec will someone scanning at every hours of the day and night. Let's say 3 shift of probers, it is 3.000 probers every day in high sec.
No idea on how those 2.000+ system will be distributed between the (minimum) 3 tiers, but even being generous the systems linking principally to high sec will not be more than 800.
So every WH system will be discovered over and over every day.
Then, the enemy don't need to be pirates, WH space is 0.0, so every person that isn't a friend is automatically an enemy.
For hunters the best entry point is high sec. They will scan in perfect peace without any problem, almost certainly the target hasn't set up a heavy presence as the wormhole has a limited capacity, depending on the WH mass allowance they can easily change ship type. if they are the first to discover a new system they can set up there and camp the entry point of the WH. If it close they can scan the new WH for the system and set up camp there. The prey will come to them.
If they are second they will enter only if the WH allow a sufficent force to overcome what can be the force already present (max mass in high sec is about 10 BS, so if the WH allow less than 5 BS you know you will probably be outgunned unless the target group has mining ships).
So a WH system is essentially a souped up version of a low sec entry point, included the good chance of finding a gatecamp, with the added bonus for the campers of the possibility to set up a bubble.
Going there with any other thought in mind is suicide by stupidity.
So Zeba idea is to make it even more attacker friendly removing local. Don't forget that even if she say "I am not asking for a hurried up removal of local", this thread title is "Save W-space from the dreaded pre-nerf syndrome" and her way to save it is to remove local. So she want W-space to be implemented without local, not local to be removed when a alternate system to scan enemies has been implemented.
And to repeat it again: it will be no more possible to probe a system for scan probes. So a hunter can easily pinpoint you from outside 14 AU and you would have no way to detect them with the directional scanner.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:03:00 -
[167]
Remove local entirely and/or make it an-
optional channel you can join, so that two groups dont have to zip around a system trying to find a name that they can Convo.
I think no local would really help in taking/retaking of resources in W space.
It'll also add to the sense of exploration, venturing out where no one can hear your screams and everyone just shoots first. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:10:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Rex Lashar
"A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week."
Look what happened with the Kali overhaul of the probing systems and the almost total disappearance of mission runners from low sec and you will see why CCP feel that a "good plan, violently executed now" is the better way to get a "very negative result" . This isn't a war where that maxim applies, this is a game where screwing up mean less money for the company and less players for the game.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:13:00 -
[169]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
If I am in 0.0, I can possibly assume that they are in belts. However, there is not much more chance they are ratting in belts versus doing exploration sites or missioning (in those areas).
Like I said, assume the same competency, the defending is constantly using his directional scan, so he will have an idea before they appear in belts.
Scanning range: directional scan 14 AU, probes 40+ Warping cloaked ship first for the attacker.
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
And I don't know about you, but do you really think sitting cloaked in a belt for hours waiting for someone who may or may not come is something most people won't find absolutely horrid?
Where is the difference from gatecamping?
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:38:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Scanning range: directional scan 14 AU, probes 40+ Warping cloaked ship first for the attacker. Where is the difference from gatecamping?
1.) Needs Astro V for Ferrets, how many people will have that is debatable. The Ferret is also not the most reliable scanning probe. So while it may give them the advantage, it is not even very reliable for finding anything subcapital. So, while this, and the Observator are distinct possibilities, they are very likely to miss numerous times, or give you a hit that requires a snoop to be placed.
There is also no guarantee that you will actually be more than 14au away from where they are when you drop the probe.
2.) Gate camping is sitting at known choke points under the pretense that people actually go through them. Sitting cloaked in a random belt is a guess that someone might wander into that system and happen to go to that belt.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:39:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Psychotic Turtle LOL dude, you might as well have said "magic". I guess if you read enough sci-fi you can justify anything. Still uncharted space should be a new experience, not just a fancier 00.
Local the way it is does not preclude a new experience.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.02 21:46:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 02/02/2009 21:48:27
I am against the removal of local it is today.
But I agree that local don't have to be in W-Space, because this wouldn't be coherent to have the habitual local in unknown systems where there is no communication network nor stargates to act like relays.
But I don't know why, W-Space will not have much players inside after one or two months... Maybe just an impression ___________________
EVE "Community" become more like WoW each day, with his fanboy attitude. Simplistic logic, Lazy thinking, No capacity to comprehend same a justified whine... |
Cassius Longinus
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:24:00 -
[173]
I don't have anything useful to add: I despise local. It marginalizes almost all tactical intelligence gathering.
But of course people like it because they are risk averse- it's not that I blame them, but I suspect the game is much less fun for me because of the current local mechanics (It's hard to know for sure since we can't really test "no local" systems on SISI or anything).
I've given up on this. All the dev comments have indicated a clear lack of initiative on this front. Something else is always a higher priority. I'm glad that certain dev's have certain "personal opinions" on the mechanics, but without the resolve to get anything done, it's just more hot air on eve forums. Meh.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:27:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Cassius Longinus But of course people like it because they are risk averse- it's not that I blame them, but I suspect the game is much less fun for me because of the current local mechanics (It's hard to know for sure since we can't really test "no local" systems on SISI or anything).
About a year or so ago, after a patch, local was not functioning. It was...weird. The Devs sorted it out within a few hours but for those few hours no one was quite sure what to do (not having had time to really come to grips with it).
Was interesting anyway.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Rondo Gunn
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:32:00 -
[175]
The lazy pirates shall whine because they will have no longer have the near-instant information gathering tool that is Local.
The lazy carebears shall whine because they will have no longer have the near-instant information gathering tool that is Local.
I would like a delayed local (or rather notalky/nosee local) in W-space. The stargates pass on info (supposedly) in eve lore so if there are no gates in W-space you would naturally assume....but you know what they say about assumptions.
I would like it if for nothing else than the tears that would be shed and the whine threads it shall spawn.
As soon as Q/A is up to it...I guess... ----------------------------------------------- shin ku myo u
Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:32:00 -
[176]
I really find it amusing that people think that being able to go "46 hostiles in local" is the sum total of "tactical intelligence gathering."
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Horsemen of Apocalypse
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:34:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:43:00 -
[178]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt I really find it amusing that people think that being able to go "46 hostiles in local" is the sum total of "tactical intelligence gathering."
In your business there is a lot more to it.
In the pirate "gank the carebear" business it is all the carebear needs to get away which ****es the pirates off to no end.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Rondo Gunn
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:43:00 -
[179]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt I really find it amusing that people think that being able to go "46 hostiles in local" is the sum total of "tactical intelligence gathering."
Because noone uses local to look for potential targets? ----------------------------------------------- shin ku myo u
Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:51:00 -
[180]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 22:51:50
Originally by: Rondo Gunn
Originally by: An Anarchyyt I really find it amusing that people think that being able to go "46 hostiles in local" is the sum total of "tactical intelligence gathering."
Because noone uses local to look for potential targets?
No matter how many apples you have, you still have zero oranges.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h In your business there is a lot more to it.
In the pirate "gank the carebear" business it is all the carebear needs to get away which ****es the pirates off to no end.
I know this. You know this. If only they'd admit it to themselves.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 23:08:00 -
[181]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Venkul Mul Scanning range: directional scan 14 AU, probes 40+ Warping cloaked ship first for the attacker. Where is the difference from gatecamping?
1.) Needs Astro V for Ferrets, how many people will have that is debatable. The Ferret is also not the most reliable scanning probe. So while it may give them the advantage, it is not even very reliable for finding anything subcapital. So, while this, and the Observator are distinct possibilities, they are very likely to miss numerous times, or give you a hit that requires a snoop to be placed.
There is also no guarantee that you will actually be more than 14au away from where they are when you drop the probe.
Granted there is no guarantee the belts will be more than 14 AU from the wormhole entrance. We don't know where it will spawn in relation to the system, but it is fairly probable if the system is even middle sized.
About the ferret: the new probes will be warp capable and repositionable. We will see how it work and if the Astro skill will modify the range (could be an use for the Asto skill) but ther eis a good probability it will be possible to move them and reposition them from beyond the range of the on board scanner.
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
2.) Gate camping is sitting at known choke points under the pretense that people actually go through them. Sitting cloaked in a random belt is a guess that someone might wander into that system and happen to go to that belt.
Read what I wrote. You don't want in the belt. You either leave the access wormhole you have used open with a relatively low mass left (less than your fleet) or close it and find the new wormhole and wait in ambush there. It is exactly like gatecamping. The target will enter from a know point, you will be there waiting, no sentry guns. And you can have bubbles up.
People using scout will lose little but the WH get locked up, those that don't use scout will suffer.
Note that all the above is for high sec WH entry points.
They will be the mirror image of the 0.0-hi sec gates.
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.02.02 23:19:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Cassius Longinus But of course people like it because they are risk averse- it's not that I blame them, but I suspect the game is much less fun for me because of the current local mechanics (It's hard to know for sure since we can't really test "no local" systems on SISI or anything).
About a year or so ago, after a patch, local was not functioning. It was...weird. The Devs sorted it out within a few hours but for those few hours no one was quite sure what to do (not having had time to really come to grips with it).
Was interesting anyway.
I agree that experience was weird. In some respects it was very cool, the unnerving sense that 'someone' could be lurking out there in space with the intention of blasting your ship to atoms / being that someone lurking out in space with the intention of blasting somebody else into atoms.
That was cool. But - there was also a sense that EVE was in some fashion devoid of life, of interaction. Which ever way you want to spin it, its that degree of 'multiplayer' interaction that Local provides.
WiS might resolve some of this quandry - i.e how to provide communal game play whilst conveying the enormity and solitude of deep space. I could imagine a EVE'verse where WiS contrasted with an empty 'wilderness' of an unlocalised star system.
The only other solution, as I outlined earlier, is just to place blind spots within the systems themselves. As you warp from one gate to the next you pass a multitude of distant asteroid belts, perhaps harbouring a mining gang, pirates or unclaimed riches; but until you travel there you simply wont know.
Its that partial knowledge that inspires trepidation and fear and I think that translates much better to the EVE universe than a complete removal of local and all knowledge of your surroundings.
C.
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Jack Light
legion syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.02 23:27:00 -
[183]
Quite a lot of posts here in a rather short amount of time eh |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.02 23:39:00 -
[184]
First, I found it amusing that CCP Prism X hinted at how to exploit EVE to nuke Nodes during fleet ops.
Second, I'm all for nerfing local. But I don't believe CCP has the balls. In a twisted sort of way they enjoy making their game less fun, not more. Like the QR patch.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.02.02 23:43:00 -
[185]
Not until they come up with a way for the hunted to be alerted to the presence of danger as simply and quickly as for the hunter to be alerted to the presence of targets (as previous posters have said). Yes, I understand that the target could simply spam the directional scan all day long, but this is not an acceptable solution. The hunter needs to press the button once, why should the target have to press it 720 times per hour?
I would support, for example: * Local has a number but no names. Neither party knows the indentity or alignment of each other until a visual is acquired or the other party broadcasts. * No information in local (unless someone broadcasts), but any time a directional scan or probe is used, anyone in the radius covered by that scan/probe gets a warning message (energy emissions from the scan/probe were detected). No identity of the other party, just a "Warning! Scanner emissions detected!" sort of message.
Personally, I like the latter. It makes sense, both in terms of utility and in terms of flavor text. Someone ratting at a warp-in point will be SOL, as the hunter can simply check each belt while 'running silent'. Someone who is a bit more careful (ratting away from a warpin point) is safer from ships other than recons. And someone in deadspace is guaranteed at least a 30 second heads up, so long as they are paying attention.
-- Becq Starforged
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Geezelbub
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:05:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Geezelbub on 03/02/2009 00:09:44
Originally by: Becq Starforged
Not until they come up with a way for the hunted to be alerted to the presence of danger as simply and quickly as for the hunter to be alerted to the presence of targets (as previous posters have said). Yes, I understand that the target could simply spam the directional scan all day long, but this is not an acceptable solution. The hunter needs to press the button once, why should the target have to press it 720 times per hour?
I would support, for example: {snip} * No information in local (unless someone broadcasts), but any time a directional scan or probe is used, anyone in the radius covered by that scan/probe gets a warning message (energy emissions from the scan/probe were detected). No identity of the other party, just a "Warning! Scanner emissions detected!" sort of message.
This I like. I mean cmon, were flying spaceships without fuzzbusters?
Heck make it a module if ya have to, in fact maybe it should be. It's a countermeasure that existed in WWII aircraft!
Could be a whole new field of EECM; spoofing scanners. Let's put some more value in the specialized Electronics ships. Test it in Wspace, then implement it in Empire and 0,0.
Now that would be an example of T3 technology. Say the scannee's chance of a result get's reduced x by the strength of the anti-scan module AND the skill of the operator of the EECM. All those specialized scanning skills put to another good use. In fact the right module could pinpoint where the scan originated, making wholesale active scanning a whole lot less attractive.
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Rondo Gunn
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:09:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Becq Starforged * No information in local (unless someone broadcasts), but any time a directional scan or probe is used, anyone in the radius covered by that scan/probe gets a warning message (energy emissions from the scan/probe were detected). No identity of the other party, just a "Warning! Scanner emissions detected!" sort of message.
I was going to suggest something like this That way the hunted have an easy passive system to detect the hunter without breaking their fingers by constantly scanning. Having local just display the number of ships and nothing else would at the very least give players a heads up if suddenly their pocket of supposedly empty w-space was invaded. They could see it spike and then if curious they could then scan and get more info.
----------------------------------------------- shin ku myo u
Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:10:00 -
[188]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 03/02/2009 00:12:11 I want to find someone to shoot. No local means I do not spend time hunting down targets in empty systems. Even the carebear in a system with no local would simply keep hitting a scan button or use a marco to do that for him.
Currently, the entire flaw of local is that the way EVE is designed. This means that somebody looking at local can logoff/warp out by the time a target finds them. Thats the main problem with local. The other problem with local is that people use it to gather info on numbers/pilots etc.
Scenario 1: I want to hunt a ratter. I will jump in system and it will take a minimum of 30 seconds to a minute for me to find the target and land on top of them. In this time, a bot or a player with local open or even a sourceforge screen reader that plays a sound when it see's a red cross or white cross on the screen (i.e someone in local). Thus, my chances of getting targets is harder.
Scenario 2: A Fleet is looking to attack the mark's fleet that is camping a gate or whatever. Rather than plan any clever scouting, a mark's fleet waits it out. Local explodes next door, and the mark's NPC alt sees local and has plenty time to pass a warning. The mark's fleet makes a run for it due to higher numbers they found out in local.
Basically, there are plenty of scenario's. The problem is not local, but the problem is people who get Real Time, 100% accurate information from local, which devalues the players who use scouts etc. What is the solution?
Just do not show up in local until you are in system for at least 2 minutes
A fast small roaming gang will give their targets incorrect information about numbers. A ratter who is using a bot or opensource program will be dead by the time a target shows up. You know that badly run gatecamp that relys on a NPC alt seeing local numbers explode a jump away as a warning? Well, its going to actually make more fights happen. A titan pilot who jumps in will have a bit of time to setup rather than witness a mass logoff/warpout just becauses he is seen in local etc.
No point removing local, just evolve it. A 2 min delay is pretty reasonable, and easy to RP in for those that way inclined. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:18:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Becq Starforged
* No information in local (unless someone broadcasts), but any time a directional scan or probe is used, anyone in the radius covered by that scan/probe gets a warning message (energy emissions from the scan/probe were detected). No identity of the other party, just a "Warning! Scanner emissions detected!" sort of message.
More or less acceptable. It will make Force recons very powerful in a way, but they have some serious limitation so it seem balanced.
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Geezelbub
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:18:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Geezelbub on 03/02/2009 00:19:22
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 03/02/2009 00:12:11 I want to find someone to shoot. No local means I do not spend time hunting down targets in empty systems. Even the carebear in a system with no local would simply keep hitting a scan button or use a marco to do that for him.
Currently, the entire flaw of local is that the way EVE is designed. This means that somebody looking at local can logoff/warp out by the time a target finds them. Thats the main problem with local. The other problem with local is that people use it to gather info on numbers/pilots etc.
I think you mean you don't wanna have to waste time hunting targets in empty systems. Please, we wouldn't want to waste your precious 30 sec to a minute on an empty system would we.
Lot's of folks here seem to think Wspace is gonna be..Hop in the system..nah empty, hop to next. I am HOPING that's NOT how it's gonna work out.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:22:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Geezelbub I think you mean you don't wanna have to waste time hunting targets in empty systems. Please, we wouldn't want to waste your precious 30 sec to a minute on an empty system would we.
What it means is that having to do the same thing a whole bunch of times in every single system is not fun, nor is it necessary.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:25:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
No point removing local, just evolve it. A 2 min delay is pretty reasonable, and easy to RP in for those that way inclined.
It all depend if you (the hunter) are getting 2 minutes out of date informations or if you must wait 2 minutes to get any information.
In the first hypothesis you jump in system and get the info that at least 2 minutes ago there were players X and Y in system. Chances are that if they are miners, ratters or mission runners they are still here. Big advantage for the hunter.
If you jump in, get nothing for two minutes and have to warp from belt to belt to detect if people are there it is a bit more balanced, but still strongly favorable to the hunter side.
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Geezelbub
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:36:00 -
[193]
Why is it not needed? (it being effort)
Oh yeah...there a big sign when you enter "unexplored" systems..
'They are here!" "and you can right click their names and get all kinds of good info".
Now that's challenging.
I am not a miner. Heck I am just a trader, by accident. But I have mission runner alt's and soon a miner alt. All of these involve quite a bit of effort, and expenditure of time, and of course isk in alot of cases.
What just cracks me up about some of you mighty "PvP'ers", expecially the out and out ganker/pirates, is you scream bloody murder about anything that may make spend more time, expend a little more effort to gank some targets. Amazing.................
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.03 00:56:00 -
[194]
This thread is agood example of why some times devs don't post :P
They get eaten alive.
I love how you put "which is my own opnio and not anyone else or the company* :P
haha
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sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.03 01:15:00 -
[195]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
OffBeaT
Caldari KaMiKaZes
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Posted - 2009.02.03 01:43:00 -
[196]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 03/02/2009 01:45:01 oh man! drop local its real stupid to have it when we use probes/scanners these days.. we only need station chat when docked!
what do we have all these skills for again to aid probes/scanners for anyway.
we all get lazy with local with not looking for warp bubbles or intruders at times but with local gone you bet i will wont to scan like clock work.
saying that i don't wont local gone until we have effective ecm or counter measures to prob hunters.
i wont eccm mods/probes of my own that will aid me in keeping me cloaked from probes while i move around avoiding these blob hunters.
don't say cloaking is enough because that is bull**** you still need to move around, playing eve parked sucks..
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.03 02:13:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Cailais ...But - there was also a sense that EVE was in some fashion devoid of life, of interaction. Which ever way you want to spin it, its that degree of 'multiplayer' interaction that Local provides. ...
You keep saying this. Could you supply some examples of this interaction in 0.0 Local that you would miss if 0.0 Local was put into 'delayed' mode? ...
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 02:40:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Geezelbub 'They are here!" "and you can right click their names and get all kinds of good info".
Oh god I could figure out their names and some corp they're in who I don't know or care about!!!!!!!
What ever will we do??!?!???
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente aurorae pacificas
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Posted - 2009.02.03 02:48:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Cailais ...But - there was also a sense that EVE was in some fashion devoid of life, of interaction. Which ever way you want to spin it, its that degree of 'multiplayer' interaction that Local provides. ...
You keep saying this. Could you supply some examples of this interaction in 0.0 Local that you would miss if 0.0 Local was put into 'delayed' mode?
Personally I couldnt think of a single occurrence in either low/0.0 or hi-sec where non accurate delayed (as opposed to real time 100% accurate) intel would diminish multiplayer interaction.
All I can see is it increasing 'interaction' in the way of alot more non-consentual pvp would occur. Personally I think attentive carebears would not be as effected as they fear. The real 'losers' (actually winners) in a non-local environment would be pvpers. Gangs would be forced to engage on inaccurate intel (therefore increasing suspense/pleasure). Alot of gangs who would have otherwise disengaged due to the intel garnered from local and live to fight another day will fight loosing battles.
This is as it should be. More fights for pvpers. More suprises for pvpers. More ship losses for industry to replace. More isk to be made/lost.
More fun to be had.
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Geezelbub
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Posted - 2009.02.03 04:44:00 -
[200]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Oh god I could figure out their names and some corp they're in who I don't know or care about!!!!!!!
What ever will we do??!?!???
Well, if that's all you can get out of it, hopefully you have other folks making intel decisions.
I am not looking for an argument here, I just see a lot of potential for lots more excitement for all sides here. My main interest is in expanding the EWAR potential here. It would add another dimension following the removal/limiting of local, and if done right, could balance the hunter v prey situation. The quick insta probe and warp is not balanced.
As for people who wanna chat and be social...go walk in stations.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 04:48:00 -
[201]
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik The real 'losers' (actually winners) in a non-local environment would be pvpers. Gangs would be forced to engage on inaccurate intel (therefore increasing suspense/pleasure). Alot of gangs who would have otherwise disengaged due to the intel garnered from local and live to fight another day will fight loosing battles.
I am sorry, the human decision making process does not work like that.
Anyway, ask yourself two things
A: Do you like blobs? B: Do you like PvP?
If you like blobs and dislike pvp, then support removing local. If you don't like blobs and like pvp, then don't support removing local. Because removing local will increase risk in the system, which pushes players towards less risky activities. Less risky activities like "not engaging as often" and "bringing more people" and "having everyone be cloaked all the time" |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 05:14:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Geezelbub
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Oh god I could figure out their names and some corp they're in who I don't know or care about!!!!!!!
What ever will we do??!?!???
Well, if that's all you can get out of it, hopefully you have other folks making intel decisions.
I am not looking for an argument here, I just see a lot of potential for lots more excitement for all sides here. My main interest is in expanding the EWAR potential here. It would add another dimension following the removal/limiting of local, and if done right, could balance the hunter v prey situation. The quick insta probe and warp is not balanced.
As for people who wanna chat and be social...go walk in stations.
Unfortunately, Local does not give any relevant information beyond how many people there are, and their standings to you.
Real intel comes from eyes on hostiles. Knowing 80 hostiles are in local is just a number. But knowing that 40 hostiles are docked and probably AFK while the other 40 are mostly in BS at a staging pos huddled near a titan about to bridge is what real intel looks like.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.03 05:18:00 -
[203]
log in traps, hotdrops and blob on other side of gate ( and now maybe wormhole dropins) where a gang sits in wsapce scout goes thro link ( if the mass allows entire gang thro) they simply wait for kspace to enter local engage and drop out of a wormhole |
OffBeaT
Caldari KaMiKaZes
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Posted - 2009.02.03 05:36:00 -
[204]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 03/02/2009 05:44:57
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik The real 'losers' (actually winners) in a non-local environment would be pvpers. Gangs would be forced to engage on inaccurate intel (therefore increasing suspense/pleasure). Alot of gangs who would have otherwise disengaged due to the intel garnered from local and live to fight another day will fight loosing battles.
I am sorry, the human decision making process does not work like that.
Anyway, ask yourself two things
A: Do you like blobs? B: Do you like PvP?
If you like blobs and dislike pvp, then support removing local. If you don't like blobs and like pvp, then don't support removing local. Because removing local will increase risk in the system, which pushes players towards less risky activities. Less risky activities like "not engaging as often" and "bringing more people" and "having everyone be cloaked all the time"
i am shocked that a goon would even say this..
i feel with the right counter mods & some kind of new eccm class of probes, blob warfare might finally start coming to a end. they would have to use there fleets like they should and hunt for what they might not know is out there & as for the hunted i know you got to look for me but i might not be the only one there on my side.. we don't need to always cloak to hide or confuse our hunters/pray. we need new kinds of tools to make this new way of combat work.. we got the ship classes now we need the gear to use in them.
you would have to rework the map as well like pods/ship kills/ships in systems as well.. this is not empire systems we need this done its in 00 systems.. if you don't wont risk or pvp stay out of 00 space right? we let ccp give empire to the car bears didn't we already.. so stay there if you dont wont risk. |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.03 06:20:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 03/02/2009 06:19:44
Quote:
Anyway, ask yourself two things
A: Do you like blobs? B: Do you like PvP?
If you like blobs and dislike pvp, then support removing local. If you don't like blobs and like pvp, then don't support removing local. Because removing local will increase risk in the system, which pushes players towards less risky activities. Less risky activities like "not engaging as often" and "bringing more people" and "having everyone be cloaked all the time"
Risk is what makes EVE PVP. Removing local would not increase blobbing; you could still get intel ,you just need a scout.
As far as blobbing...Removal/nerf of local would mean that a smaller force would be able to slip by to some extent. A smart, smaller gang would use the lack of perfect intel to their advantage to pick apart the larger gang in something other than a direct headbash. Local actually supports blobbing because it removes the disadvantages to a very large, unwieldy fleet. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.03 07:06:00 -
[206]
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
EDIT: although the emphasis of this thread is on the effects of a non/delayed local environment on 0.0 and w-space, ironically its really, really needed MOST in Hi-sec. A delayed system of intel could really increase the viability of hi-sec wars, as opposed to the dock up/ undocking games that it currently entails.
You mean "I will be so happy to camp high sec stations as people without a NPC corp alt will be easy targets as they don't even have a window to see if there is a enemy outside the station"?
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.02.03 07:12:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Lord WarATron
No point removing local, just evolve it. A 2 min delay is pretty reasonable, and easy to RP in for those that way inclined.
It all depend if you (the hunter) are getting 2 minutes out of date informations or if you must wait 2 minutes to get any information.
In the first hypothesis you jump in system and get the info that at least 2 minutes ago there were players X and Y in system. Chances are that if they are miners, ratters or mission runners they are still here. Big advantage for the hunter.
If you jump in, get nothing for two minutes and have to warp from belt to belt to detect if people are there it is a bit more balanced, but still strongly favorable to the hunter side.
It can work either way. Either everybody get a 2 min delay to local. But what a lot of pvpers think would be better for the game is having people who enter the system to be delayed by 2 mins before showing up on local.
A hunter is supposed to have the advantage in terms of hunting. A miner/ratter/missioner is not supposed to have low risk access to contestable resources. Its risk vs reward. It will force people to mine/rat/mission in small groups rather than solo rambo style of play that we have today.
Just now, it is almost impossible to catch people who use screen readers from sourceforge, you know, the ones that make a sound whenever it sees a red cross or while neutral while mark displayed on screen. Its almost impossible to catch macroers or even people who look at local, since they can warp out quicker than you can land on them.
Most people that are caught today are people who are semiafk or those who do no rely on local. Gatecamps can rely on using a NPC corp alt next door to give ample warning when a gatecamp crushing squad arrives. I can go on and on, but local is not bad, its the Real time 100% accurate information that needs to be reviewed. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 07:19:00 -
[208]
Originally by: OffBeaT blob warfare might finally start coming to a end
No, it won't.
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Risk is what makes EVE PVP. Removing local would not increase blobbing; you could still get intel ,you just need a scout.
As far as blobbing...Removal/nerf of local would mean that a smaller force would be able to slip by to some extent. A smart, smaller gang would use the lack of perfect intel to their advantage to pick apart the larger gang in something other than a direct headbash. Local actually supports blobbing because it removes the disadvantages to a very large, unwieldy fleet.
Ah ha ha ha ha ha.
1. Less information is more risk.
More risk promotes less risky activities. Guess what a less risky activity is? Its blobbing.
2. Smaller forces need scouts just as much as larger ones, but scouts for smaller ones comprise a larger percentage of the gang and a larger "cost" to the effectiveness of the gang as a whole. The more scouts you need the larger your gang will have to become to compensate. And that is even if you can get back up to the information level you were at previously.
Now, i don't know about you, but if you make a change and it promotes people bringing more people into their gang, i call that "increasing blobbing".
3. Larger gangs, by virtue of their ability to give up less combat power with the inclusion of more scouts are typically BETTER informed than smaller gangs. This increases as the size of the organization as a whole increases. So an entity such as Goonswarm for instance, which can have region wide intelligence reporting with hundreds or thousands of pilots flying around gathering intel will know more about where enemies are what kinds of ships they're flying and how likely they are to win a fight. The lack of local will hurt us much less than it will hurt you, who has comparatively less intelligence, less ability to find targets, less ability to identify large forces on the move and less ability to avoid a large force that is setting a trap.
I don't argue against local because it would be bad for Goonswarm, i argue against it because it would be bad for the game. Sure, you might be able to gank a few more ratters in low-sec domain for a week or so. Until they stopped ratting and went to empire and the only folks left were massive CVA defensive gangs flanked by everyone and their mother reporting in and watching the Citadel religiously.(and regions without these types of collective defensive mechanisms would likely generate them right fast)
Well, that or you would just get into a recon and go enjoy (more or less) riskless pvp while fapping over how uber your k:d ratio was. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 07:23:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
It can work either way. Either everybody get a 2 min delay to local. But what a lot of pvpers think would be better for the game is having people who enter the system to be delayed by 2 mins before showing up on local.
A 2 minute delay is as good as no local. 2 minutes is for bleeding ever.
The answer is very very simple
1. Rat aggression timer, 5 minutes logout. 2. Normal Probes scan down cloaking ships just like normal. 3. You don't show up in local until you decloak from gate jump in.
There, its fixed. You can kill ratters since they can't log out they can only go to a POS(which you can kill and is expensive and a pain to keep running). You can kill ratters if they cloak since they won't be in recons or stealth bombers and will be easy prey for a scanner. Your recons will suffer no ill effects unless you're afk, since it takes time to warp to a result, and since all ships with cloaking bonuses can warp instantly after they uncloak or warp cloaked, there is no reason anyone should catch a cloaked ship with a bonus that is at their keyboard(if you don't want to be at your keyboard, log-off, you still have a 2 minute log off timer). And if you jump into a system you have time to scan around to see what is there before the other side knows you're there and you can slightly hide your numbers when jumping into an enemy force. |
187 PROOF
VICE-LORDS
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Posted - 2009.02.03 07:40:00 -
[210]
CCP has been trying to get more industry into 0.0 for quite some time.
If they take away the one defense miners have against roaming kb *****s they will achieve the exact opposite result. PvPrs already have the advantage against miners, why tilt the scale even more?
Without realtime local, 0.0 miners are dead, period.
The economic ramifications of reducing the high end ore miners are huge.
Sooo.....why not leave local as it is for barges/exhumers? Let the mining ships keep realtime local and nerf the rest. Perhaps ORE can be the only corp with this technology.
I dont mine, but I dont want to see the carebears get completely screwed. |
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2009.02.03 08:33:00 -
[211]
I don't think this is an issue that should be left to a player vote, simply because each player has their own individual opinion based on their play style and preferred security level (hisec, low sec or 0.0).
Let's first see what w-space is like and then poll the different player groups on how they feel about it, yeah?
Personally with the information I have now I feel w-space would be a nice test bed for delayed local. But who knows, maybe it will a recipe for disaster. |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.02.03 08:36:00 -
[212]
This will be dealt with. |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.02.03 09:15:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Cailais ...But - there was also a sense that EVE was in some fashion devoid of life, of interaction. Which ever way you want to spin it, its that degree of 'multiplayer' interaction that Local provides. ...
You keep saying this. Could you supply some examples of this interaction in 0.0 Local that you would miss if 0.0 Local was put into 'delayed' mode?
Well, specificaly I was refering to my experience / impressions of EVE when local went down for that brief patch period.
For that short time (and admitedly it was quite fun) my feeling was I was no longer playing an MMO - but a solo player game. I could no longer 'see' other players around me (even the few that were in the low sec systems I traversed at the time).
Our interaction with local is often very passive and subtle. We glance at local, perhaps pull up some data on a pilot we've not seen before. We get a sense of who's about ("a AAA pilot? Hes a long way from home" / "ah another one of those privateer guys, didnt we fight them a while back?").
That's a very subtle interaction, but it exists and in my view its quite important. Observing other players coming and going creates a sense of a living breathing universe. Remove local and you ideally need something else to provide that feeling.
As I said before WiS might do that because you would experience a popualtion around you within the station environment. But that's a long way off.
I hope that explains where Im coming from - Im not "pro local" in a mechanics sense (heck I typically fly a recon, no local would rock from that perspective) but I can see how it could damage the experience for others in subtle ways.
C.
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Grim Vandal
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.02.03 09:19:00 -
[214]
I'll rather like them to REMOVE WTZ in W-Space
Local is a planet sized stone in my eye which quite hurts as well but it needs some mechanic (new scanner).
What I really think is a SHAME is that so much other stuff is so much more important to ccp, that they were NOT able to fix such problems over a period of years.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.03 09:31:00 -
[215]
they go for big bang new features and as a side sometimes fix smaller things and plz leave wtz in wspace thanks |
Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.02.03 10:00:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Grim Vandal I'll rather like them to REMOVE WTZ in W-Space
WTZ is only controversial because of gates and stations, since there are no gates and stations in w-space I fail to see why you even care.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.03 10:10:00 -
[217]
becomes mute new tactics will be needed for wspace |
Dristra
Amarr Idle Haven
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Posted - 2009.02.03 10:11:00 -
[218]
How about something simple: Local chat gets a range limit.
A set number, or a number based on your ship type.
This enables a service that takes about as much server resources as local already does, and it is simply nerfed local, not removed, just nerfed, and ccp love nerfs.
This is suggested to be implemented into w-space. |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.03 10:19:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Dristra How about something simple: Local chat gets a range limit.
A set number, or a number based on your ship type.
This enables a service that takes about as much server resources as local already does, and it is simply nerfed local, not removed, just nerfed, and ccp love nerfs.
This is suggested to be implemented into w-space.
good idea but i think ccp will just go with local everywhere for now |
Kola XXX
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.02.03 10:27:00 -
[220]
Remove local and add deployable scanner(s) to game and nerf pos system scanners a bit, have these both give real time info once deployed and activated (not in a local chat window but scanner style.) You could have varying ranges on the deployable scanners or even adjustable ranges for accuracy tradeoff and pos scanner (requiring more effort to deploy) would give you full system coverage. Let's forget the fanfic "ship communicates with stargates so we have local" arguments for a sec. You cannot clone jump to w-space. Some sort of deep space frequecies . Creating reasons for no local is done already. This would reward people who put in effort/teamwork.Would create more situations.
Someone mentioned an optional local you can join, not bad. |
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Dristra
Amarr Idle Haven
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Posted - 2009.02.03 10:27:00 -
[221]
Originally by: ollobrains2
Originally by: Dristra How about something simple: Local chat gets a range limit.
A set number, or a number based on your ship type.
This enables a service that takes about as much server resources as local already does, and it is simply nerfed local, not removed, just nerfed, and ccp love nerfs.
This is suggested to be implemented into w-space.
good idea but i think ccp will just go with local everywhere for now
I guess... |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2009.02.03 11:23:00 -
[222]
Having given up on trying to read this thread in its entirety, here is what I think.
Wormhole systems should have absolutely no local channel at all, they should be unfamiliar, hostile, and unpoliced.
That having been said, to make the balance not tip overly much towards agressors vs defenders, I would vote that the scanner revamp includes an automatic cycling or alternatively, is changed such that it will automatically display all results in a given range, updating as new objects come into that radius. (I.e. have each object automatically aware of the others presence in range, without manual intervention).
This way a miner only needs to observe the scanner window, much like they observe local in normal 0.0, but the task is harder due to all the other clutter that will come up on scan.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.03 11:26:00 -
[223]
id like to see the patch on sisi before commenting anymore its speculation plusses and negatives for removing local. how much will local in wspace be useful anyway esp if theres not much traffic. Still some ways of removing it over time are needed
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Aeo IV
Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation
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Posted - 2009.02.03 14:37:00 -
[224]
I think local should be left alone, except for ships with cloaks, or ships that jump into a system via a covert ops jump...gate...thingy (can't remember wtf they're called)
But, I'd ALSO like to see more stealth technology introduced, as well as a role for things like planets and roids, as in sensor shadows and such not. |
Fwuffy Wabbit
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Posted - 2009.02.03 15:51:00 -
[225]
Let's imagine that "Local" is possible because all the stargates in a system send out signals throughout the system and act as a backbone, reporting who jumps in and out.
W-Systems have no stargates, therefore no local. The only time you'll see anything in local is if a pilot transmits a message, and even then you won't know if they are staying around or if they've wormholed out.
This brings up the idea of a new deployable - a sensor thingymajig - that you anchor at a wormhole exit and behaves like a stargate would, relaying all comings and goings to the local channel. Of course, it should be destroyable
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.03 16:00:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Cailais Well, specificaly I was refering to my experience / impressions of EVE when local went down for that brief patch period.
For that short time (and admitedly it was quite fun) my feeling was I was no longer playing an MMO - but a solo player game. I could no longer 'see' other players around me (even the few that were in the low sec systems I traversed at the time).
Our interaction with local is often very passive and subtle. We glance at local, perhaps pull up some data on a pilot we've not seen before. We get a sense of who's about ("a AAA pilot? Hes a long way from home" / "ah another one of those privateer guys, didnt we fight them a while back?").
That's a very subtle interaction, but it exists and in my view its quite important. Observing other players coming and going creates a sense of a living breathing universe. Remove local and you ideally need something else to provide that feeling.
As I said before WiS might do that because you would experience a popualtion around you within the station environment. But that's a long way off.
I hope that explains where Im coming from - Im not "pro local" in a mechanics sense (heck I typically fly a recon, no local would rock from that perspective) but I can see how it could damage the experience for others in subtle ways.
C.
I do see where youÆre coming from, and I somewhat agree on the impact of Empire Local on the immersion, where it is equally a social tool as well as a way to find trouble. That is why I specifically asked about 0.0 Local.
In 0.0, Local is used as an intel tool 99% of the time, and as a smack dispenser the other 1%. 0.0 is different, and needs a different Local.
Once switched into delayed mode for 0.0, Local could be changed into the proper comm/intel tool that it needs to be: it could have standings-based settings for allowing others to see you, with tabs to separate all/friendlies/everyone-else, etc. so that you could always see and talk to who you want (and who wants to be seen). It could also be somehow integrated into a revamped ships scanner to display acquired pilot data.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.03 16:34:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Marlenus on 03/02/2009 16:34:35 I don't think anybody is entirely happy with local as it is. Certainly CCP has made it very clear they are not.
But they've also made it clear that they don't plan to remove it until they can replace it with something better. There have been suggestions in that regard for MUCH longer than I've been playing EVE, but I'm not sure any of the ones I've seen really would be an improvement for all constituencies.
That's a tall order. Although I see the appeal of experimenting with solutions in W-Space, I very much "get" the concerns of the devs who have been building us spiffy new toys and don't want the shiny messed up. It's like cooking; if you'd just served up fancy expensive beefsteaks for eight, how would you react to the suggestion "Hey, before we taste these, let's smother them with that new salsa we bought down in Tijuana, you remember, the one where we can't read the label?"
Personally, I hope the solution, when it comes, is tied to ship equipment and infrastructure. Probes, towed EW arrays, anchored intel assets. How cool would it be if a barge pilot could launch and anchor an expensive and very fragile destructible "localized jamming array" that (1) removed him from local and (2) created a weak "deadspace bubble" around him that made him harder to scan down? Similarly, how cool would it be if combat pilots could fit a module (with balancing drawbacks and skills-modified duration) that delayed their appearance in local? Of course each such feature should have a potential countermeasure; for example, pilots ought to be able to launch and anchor "system scanning arrays" that can burn through "localized jamming array" distortion, at the cost of time and effort.
There were some probing ideas higher in the thread along these lines, I'm well aware they aren't new suggestions. But I think hardware would be the smart way for CCP to experiment. Leave the basic mechanic untouched, introduce hardware that lets individuals modify how the mechanic works on a limited basis, see how that affects the game, and then once you're happy with the game design results, build out the hardware with the usual wide array of meta variations and differing feature sets. |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.03 16:56:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Goumindong More risk promotes less risky activities. Guess what a less risky activity is? Its blobbing.
People have blobbed up in 0.0 for as long as blobbing has been practically available. The only times when people donÆt blob-up is when there arenÆt enough people online/available, or when they just donÆt want the hassle/annoyance/etc. of dealing with all these other people. Occasionally there are other reasons, but the times they are used is insignificant. Regardless, nerfed* 0.0 Local will not change any of that.
The only thing that needs to be dealt with is the cloaking, not so that you could scan it down like a regular ship, but just detect its signature, maybe over time.
*Nerfed in the way of being replaced by a range-limited ships scanner.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.03 18:10:00 -
[229]
Prism X - I'm glad that you have such an instinctive dislike of anything that smells of instancing. I hate instances with a vengeance and when I first heard about WH I feared that this might be EVEs version of them. After reading the devblogs I'm happy to see that's not the case.
But I don't see what a delayed local channel in W-space has to do with instancing?
W-space is already a bit different. Not on the map. No gates. New feature. This is perfect for a first foray into changed local mechanics. And they are supposed to be isolated - a place to boldly go where only Seekers have gone before?
I understand the fears about lack of local making EVE feel less like a MMOG. But that fear seems to me exaggerated.
In high density empire systems there is constant traffic at the gate and near stations. And belts are also rarely empty. Besides this thread was about restricting the change to W-space - and possibly expanding later to 0.0. So empire has better gates/more comm-sats/whatever snd therefore instant-local.
Outside of empire a more isolated feeling would be welcome IMHO.
I remember fondly the days when 0.0 didn't have Outposts around every corner, no conquerable stations and no jump routes connecting the rim regions. It felt wild. That feeling is much diminished now.
Chat itself happens mostly within corp and alliance channels anyway. Add gang, sec-channels and public corp channel and any number of specialty channels (recruit, trade, etc) and I have a constant barrage of communications in at least 4 channels - sometimes twice as many.
I'd love to see something similar to submarine scanning.
Also I like the idea mentioned earlier in the thread about active scans alerting everybody in range.
To summarize some ideas: * Local is a comm channel - pilots get listed automatically in empire (plus 0.0 for now - to be reviewed later), but is delayed (until you start chat) in W-space. Not because it's instanced - but because gates and other sensor infrastructure are missing
* Limit the onboard scanner to 1m km or so. You only get details info at this short range. Roughly a planet and its moons and belts.
* Distinguish between active and passive scans
* All ships within a grid get a combined "fleet signature" (a simple sum of a mass/power signature per ship)
* you need to be closer and/or have more precise probes the smaller the fleet-sig. Individual small ships could slip through and you get the potential for less blobbing.
* Provide an active system scan module - this needs at least a mid slot and some cap. While activated it will provide periodic results of fleet-sig and distance. Being an active system it also alerts anybody within range. Range is only a few AU or less.
Damn - thinking about it I'm afraid the "active scan alerts all within range" idea might mean too much network traffic. But perhaps ok if the scanners have an interval of a minute or so. And they don't provide exact ship/POS infos - just rough fleet-sigs. And the active scan/probe alert is just that - a simple there was a ping info.
For system wide scanning you need probes.
The situation could be further improved (at a later date) by getting rid of fixed belts.
If roid fields were not in fixed positions but would have to be scouted (and respawn at another position after being stripped - or max time runs out - roids moved apart) - not only can we say bye bye to macro miners - but gankers need to scout first too - just like the miners/ratters before them. Explanation: Finding the belt is easy - but valuable (includes veldspar) roids are not the norm and have to be explored for. The rest of the roids that make a belt are assumed to be low grade trash matter - not worth mining/refining. We already have to assume this for immersion as belts are shown as small roid fields already. |
Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.03 18:42:00 -
[230]
Well, I tried to do a summary of how many people were for and against.
I got to page 3 and counted 40 'for' and 1 'against' with a handful of people who weren't clear enough to discern their position.
I'm pretty sure the number of people 'against' will rise to 2 with gunmindong in the thread now, perhaps 3 if someone actually believes his tripe about local being the cure for blobbing.
In the past debates, those roles would have been reversed and proponents of local change would've been drowned out and lynched by the majority. But I think now, enough time has passed that more people actually experience how it hurts tactical and offensive gameplay - instead of just thinking of saving themselves.
People have HOPE /o/
People want CHANGE \o\
PREACH IT BROTHAS |
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.02.03 18:57:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 03/02/2009 19:02:16
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Lord WarATron
It can work either way. Either everybody get a 2 min delay to local. But what a lot of pvpers think would be better for the game is having people who enter the system to be delayed by 2 mins before showing up on local.
A 2 minute delay is as good as no local. 2 minutes is for bleeding ever.
The answer is very very simple
1. Rat aggression timer, 5 minutes logout. 2. Normal Probes scan down cloaking ships just like normal. 3. You don't show up in local until you decloak from gate jump in.
There, its fixed. You can kill ratters since they can't log out they can only go to a POS(which you can kill and is expensive and a pain to keep running). You can kill ratters if they cloak since they won't be in recons or stealth bombers and will be easy prey for a scanner. Your recons will suffer no ill effects unless you're afk, since it takes time to warp to a result, and since all ships with cloaking bonuses can warp instantly after they uncloak or warp cloaked, there is no reason anyone should catch a cloaked ship with a bonus that is at their keyboard(if you don't want to be at your keyboard, log-off, you still have a 2 minute log off timer). And if you jump into a system you have time to scan around to see what is there before the other side knows you're there and you can slightly hide your numbers when jumping into an enemy force.
Removing local is a bad thing in my opinion. But local needs to evolve.
Rat agression timers mean nothing when you are insta aligned. And the other things you mention will not stop people using screen readers that can be set to ring a alarm or play a sound file whenever it sees a neutral while box or a red cross in screen.
But more importantly, it will not prevent people from using a NPC corp alt as a 100% realtime accurate scout.
Scenario
You have a 20 man gang and are planning on killing a 20 man gang 2 jumps away that are camping a gatecamp. The mark has a NPC corp alt as a local scout a single jump from their camp. As soon as your gang jumps in to break the gatecamp, they have all scattered before you even get to the gate to jump in.
Why? Because the NPC corp alt has 100% accurate, real time info and can warn people of numbers coming in.
Scenario 2
You decide to risk a black ops to hit a mark's gang. The marks gang is not concearned about your cov ops alt that is in system.
As soon as you cyno your Blackops or whatever into the covert cyno at a safe spot, the Marks gang is 100% aware of the numbers of ships that have cyno'ed in and can make a run for it. A 2 minute delay for people entering to show up in local means that such a true black ops style attack would have been able to engage.
Conclusion The delay does not have to be 2 mins. It could be 1 min or whatever is reasonable. Killing ratters is the small part of what pvpers want to do. The other part is to be able to force both sides to fight rather than run to a pos or whatever. It will teach people to use proper scouts insted of npc alts, and force people to get involved in more intresting pvp and thus create better pvpers.
TL:DR version Keep local as it is, but give people entering local a short delay before they show up on local --
Billion Isk Mission |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 19:05:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Rex Lashar Well, I tried to do a summary of how many people were for and against.
I got to page 3 and counted 40 'for' and 1 'against' with a handful of people who weren't clear enough to discern their position.
I'm pretty sure the number of people 'against' will rise to 2 with gunmindong in the thread now, perhaps 3 if someone actually believes his tripe about local being the cure for blobbing.
In the past debates, those roles would have been reversed and proponents of local change would've been drowned out and lynched by the majority. But I think now, enough time has passed that more people actually experience how it hurts tactical and offensive gameplay - instead of just thinking of saving themselves.
People have HOPE /o/
People want CHANGE \o\
PREACH IT BROTHAS
Lets assume 250,000 eve accounts.
I can assure you a survey of 41 people or 0.000164% of Eve is a very good statistical sample. I can also assure you that putting game design in the hands of anyone who has an opinion is an even better idea.
If the majority of Eve were involved in any sense with tactics and offensive strategy I could see your point. But they aren't, so that is also a complete moot point.
By your logic, bait and ambushes never happen. But then again, I know your MO, you don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with you, because all of those people are wrong.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.03 20:00:00 -
[233]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt Lets assume 250,000 eve accounts.
I can assure you a survey of 41 people or 0.000164% of Eve is a very good statistical sample. I can also assure you that putting game design in the hands of anyone who has an opinion is an even better idea.
I wasn't trying to do a statistically relevant poll, I was trying to outline the difference in attitudes. They have changed, whether I can prove it or not.
Originally by: An Anarchyyt If the majority of Eve were involved in any sense with tactics and offensive strategy I could see your point. But they aren't, so that is also a complete moot point.
By your logic, the aggressor and defender shouldn't be on equal footing just because the majority of people choose not to be aggressive.
Originally by: An Anarchyyt By your logic, bait and ambushes never happen. But then again, I know your MO, you don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with you, because all of those people are wrong.
Bait requires someone to willingly engage in PVP, and ambushes happen during travel. How do you go from repeating something I already brought up, to repeating it and then suggesting I don't agree with myself in a totally different context? I'm pretty sure 'by your logic' here actually means 'by some incredible leaps of logic'.
As for right or wrong: I find myself debating with people over implementation more than justification these days. The only people who are just plain wrong are the ones who oppose change, irrespective of implementation and outcome. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.03 21:04:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/02/2009 21:11:56
Originally by: Glengrant
Several good suggestions
All nice, then you pick miners and rattes and stick a big target here on them in the belts.
Removing local without removing warpable belts is giving a enormous advantage to the hunters, piled up on the other advantages they already have (impossibility to protect a mining barge, rats fixing on the ratters and so on).
Originally by: Rex Lashar
Originally by: An Anarchyyt If the majority of Eve were involved in any sense with tactics and offensive strategy I could see your point. But they aren't, so that is also a complete moot point.
By your logic, the aggressor and defender shouldn't be on equal footing just because the majority of people choose not to be aggressive.
If I get it rigth you are for putting aggressor and defender on equal footing, rigth?
So you are for removing the "gank here" sign that warpable belts are, right?
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prodalt
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Posted - 2009.02.03 22:03:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Rex Lashar
I'm pretty sure the number of people 'against' will rise to 2 with gunmindong in the thread now, perhaps 3 if someone actually believes his tripe about local being the cure for blobbing.
I never said that "local was the cure for blobbing" i said that if you reduce the information in the system people will blob more. That is pretty simple and incontrovertible. When they are not blobbing, they will be pvping less or cloaking more.
Quote: But I think now, enough time has passed that more people actually experience how it hurts tactical and offensive gameplay - instead of just thinking of saving themselves.
Removing local, like most things that grant large scale advantages to entrenched, coordinated, and large empires with information networks and the pilots to exploit information disparities would not "save goonswarm". It would in fact make GS relatively more powerful, while our production would take a hit in effectiveness, everyone elses would take even more of a hit. Power is a zero sum game. Let me assure you, that if this change went through, GS would allocate more of it than you would.
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Rat agression timers mean nothing when you are insta aligned. And the other things you mention will not stop people using screen readers that can be set to ring a alarm or play a sound file whenever it sees a neutral while box or a red cross in screen.
Yes they do.
There are three ways that you can stop yourself from getting killed
1. Warp out to a POS 2. Warp out to a safe and log out 3. Warp out to a safe and cloak
3 is solved by fixing scanning for cloaks and 2 is fixed by a rat aggression timer. Now the only way you can avoid a fight is by going to a POS. And well, knock the damned pos down you pansy.
Quote:
But more importantly, it will not prevent people from using a NPC corp alt as a 100% realtime accurate scout.
Because something prevents you from killing the scout?
A: Nothing does
Quote: Scenario
Yes, and if the players have to risk being dropped by a 50 man gang by sitting on a gate they won't bother to camp with 20 because it simply won't be enough. They will have 100 folks there. You have to understand that the ability to disengage is a necessary mechanic that keeps a balance between larger and smaller gangs in check, without it smaller gangs are at an even larger disadvantage than they are now. Not only are they not able to actually fight a larger gang they aren't able to avoid a larger gang.
The ability to see larger gangs and run away from them is a prime factor that allows smaller gangs to operate at all at acceptable risk levels. Without it, those gangs disappear. So do their targets for the same reasons.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 22:04:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Goumindong on 03/02/2009 22:04:19 Above is me. Prodalt is my alt
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.03 22:22:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
All nice, then you pick miners and rattes and stick a big target here on them in the belts.
Removing local without removing warpable belts is giving a enormous advantage to the hunters, piled up on the other advantages they already have (impossibility to protect a mining barge, rats fixing on the ratters and so on).
Let's put aside for a second that I'm all for roid fields getting moved into exploration and no longer being in fixed positions.
I never understood why people think that only gankers profit from nerfed local. That is IMHO based on assumptions that are not true. The assumptions is that finding victims takes 0 time. The same nerfed local that hides incoming pirates from the poor miners would also hide the miners from the ebil ganking pirates.
As things are now pirates can roam quickly through 20 systems and insta-check on jump in if there are likely targets to find in belts. If not warp through and check next system.
Having to check 8 or 16 belts takes time. Therefore less systems will be roamed per hour by pirates. Or the pirates split up into individual scouts and try to find victims before re-assembling the gang for attack.
At the same time even with local gone miners can post a scout at gate to see if hostiles come in.
To avoid misunderstandings: I'm much more likely to be on the ratting/mining side of things rather than being an attacker. I never went pirate and have 0 intentions of ever doing so. They only time I would ever attack a ratting/mining gang is when we're at war with their corp/alliance. And even then it wouldn't be my prefered way of pvp.
I just believe that less free info makes the tactics more varied and interesting. Mining is pretty safe. Belt rats can either be easily tanked by Barges (all high and a lot of low sec) or perma-tanked by a single BS that first collects the aggro (all the rest). Gankers bring some risk to mining - which makes it more interesting. But if unknowns in local mean insta-warp out this is still just annoying - no need for tactics or protection or outthinking the opposition.
I want a bit of challenge.
I'm all for changing scanning to keep things balanced and interesting.
Nerf local and replace it with some tools and effort.
And yes - make roid fields something to be explored for. Fairly simple and quick to find though. Don't want miners getting frustrated because they have to explore hours for every batch of roids.
Brainstorm: * Remove Asteroid belts from menu. * Instead have a number of roid field slots per system in proportion to former belts. * The roid field looses 10% of roids per day (damn things drift apart). * After 10 days replace with a new field at another location * It shouldn't take longer than a couple minutes or so to find such fields. * Barges & Orcas get a bonus to find these roid fields. * Noobs get BMs from agents to high sec roid locations. * Also scouts can sell good roid field BMs. * Have a small chance of fields having roids of 1-3 sec ratings better than usual. (a rare field of Dark Ochre in 0.5?) * Say bye bye to marcros :-)
And with that while a mining gang would not see the gankers jumping into system - the gankers wouldn't know if miners are present and would need to invest some effort to find any. Both groups wouldn't know right away if somebody else is around and that also means that the gankers don't know about anti-pirates roaming around either. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE |
Ascuris Wurm
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Posted - 2009.02.03 22:55:00 -
[238]
Local obviously seems to have different uses and roles by different people in different areas of space. To maintain consistency with technical backstory and alliance sovereignty, why shouldn't local be different based on system sec level?
In high sec empire, it makes sense that the infrastructure for local exists. Keep it the same. People can have the social interaction they require, and nobody uses it for intel in high-sec.
In low sec, with less Concord support, the communication is spotty, so delayed local gives the hunters a chance, and keeps the risk vs reward balance for treasure seekers that is so important.
In 0.0, there are stargates, so it would not be strange to have local communications, but let's add an extra advantage to maintaining sovereignty - alliance leaders control access to local in controlled systems, much like they control station and outpost access. End result - Alliances choose. If they want, then everyone can have local. If they want, only blues have local and reds and neuts can't see local, but maybe they should show up anyway... The stargates tattle, and yet another advantage to fighting on your home turf, plus increased role for scanners and scouts for would be invaders. In non-controlled 0.0, then delayed local or no local at all.
In WH, it doesn't make sense that there would be any communication networks set up. So I don't think local should exist there for anyone.
These are just thoughts off the top of my head, and may be flawed... I'm sure I'm about to find out how flawed... flame away...
Wurm
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.04 00:26:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Goumindong I never said that "local was the cure for blobbing" i said that if you reduce the information in the system people will blob more. That is pretty simple and incontrovertible.
I controverted your supposition in my post above. Turns out there's nothing "incontrovertible" about it. However it was simple, or rather - simplistic.
For some strange reason you also refuse to consider that the 'missing' Local intel would be provided by a different system at some reasonable compromise. |
OffBeaT
Caldari KaMiKaZes
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Posted - 2009.02.04 01:34:00 -
[240]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 04/02/2009 01:39:28 its not a rocket since to work some of this out.. what can stations be, well some i like to think could be like traffic control stations with ranges of whatever buy skills or class of stations. as a matter of fact alliances HAVE TOO MUCH ISK as it is so if your gona build docking stations well you need be able to police your space right. so like a airport tower (aka) traffic control new types of space stations can do this job for alliance..
whats wrong with miners using early warning probes/buoys that scan on going, arn't alliances there to police there systems isn't that what they say to you when they offer you there space for a fee..
all we need to make this a more interactive game is more effort to the game. when ccp gets around to making counter probes/mods/buoys to help players move around better without local this will be a way cooler more intense more a of different kind of fleet combat..
man, this kind of stuff got to be done some day. it can't just stay jump to gate blob then run or out blob..
we also need mods/probes/buoys also to be able to cut fleets up or bounty hunt members solo. so smaller units can counter hit or ambush as you might say. |
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.04 03:27:00 -
[241]
i say we wait now until its on sisi for testing
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Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.04 04:38:00 -
[242]
this topic is getting old...
Whatever happen to you get what you get. i think we are getting spoiled to much from CCP
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Ramirez Dora
Small Hadron Collider
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Posted - 2009.02.04 05:22:00 -
[243]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/02/2009 14:09:16
Originally by: Denaris Aschanna stuff
That's using the noggin'!
Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat. Sadly it was way too much work to expect it to work with our current release schedule as well as it having some technical issues (We really can not have people pressing scan every 5 seconds and receive a huge record set over the wire. That's way to close to a nuke node button.) but --> personally, as in me, only me, not CCP, not all of EVE, just me, I only speak for me <-- found the concept to reek of the awesome old sub games I used to play when I was young and stupid..er.
The only reason I'm telling you this is so you understand that we view removing local as a huge mechanical change, for 0.0. We'd really want something as awesome as that design to replace it there. That has nothing to do with wormhole space lacking local chat as my only reason for that is having local delayed there and nowhere else creating a feeling of instancing and utter solitude in an MMO.
However, I'm not adamant on it in any sense. It's quite possible that I'm being overly defensive regarding my work. I do try and keep my draconian attitude in check so I allow for that possibility. So post on. With the caveat that absolutely nothing is promised (as it is in real life when we exchange ideas.. but I know it's pretty futile bringing RL sense into forums. )
Edit: Quoted the wrong person
You mean exactly like this? :)
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Lorzion
Minmatar IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.04 05:31:00 -
[244]
Uhh i vote no local in wormholes!
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Armoured Gamer
Gallente Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:17:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Lorzion Uhh i vote no local in wormholes!
let catch the bear nub together :) |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:31:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Glengrant
Originally by: Venkul Mul
All nice, then you pick miners and rattes and stick a big target here on them in the belts.
Removing local without removing warpable belts is giving a enormous advantage to the hunters, piled up on the other advantages they already have (impossibility to protect a mining barge, rats fixing on the ratters and so on).
Let's put aside for a second that I'm all for roid fields getting moved into exploration and no longer being in fixed positions.
I never understood why people think that only gankers profit from nerfed local. That is IMHO based on assumptions that are not true. The assumptions is that finding victims takes 0 time. The same nerfed local that hides incoming pirates from the poor miners would also hide the miners from the ebil ganking pirates.
If you can't see why it helps more the hunter than the target you have a strange mind.
Ever tried mining cloaked? Ratting cloaked?
But a force recon can do exactly that when hunting. He will need to be decloaked less than 1 second in every system (the time between decloaking after jumping in activating his cloak) and he will need to decloak only if he find a suitable target.
A small gang of them with the right set up can pop any miner and warp away before the defending force can engage them.
"Put a guard to the gate" is a common reply. So let make the standard question: "Are you offering yourself to be the guy that pay to play and then stay 4 hours at a gate doing nothing but full alert?" Remember that even 1 second distraction can doom the whole group, so no alt tabbing, no surfing the net, no chatting, no distractions.
Yes, removing local is a way greater boon for the hunter than the target.
Unless, as Guomindong has pointed, the target has huge numbers on his side and can have someone checking most of the systems at every time of the day.
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:36:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Rex Lashar I wasn't trying to do a statistically relevant poll, I was trying to outline the difference in attitudes. They have changed, whether I can prove it or not.
They haven't changed.
Just that we speak about local in W-Space, ONLY W-Space...
Something that the majority of players will not care (too dangerous, too much effort, so too much annoying).
And something that it would be not coherent to have the habitual local (no, 0.0 are not like W-Space. 0.0 received empire investissements, or they wouldn't have stargates).
Also, the title of the topic don't explicit the fact that it is a discussion about local.
Translation : Nothing changed.
___________________
EVE "Community" become more like WoW each day, with his fanboy attitude. Simplistic logic, Lazy thinking, No capacity to comprehend same a justified whine... |
Armoured Gamer
Gallente Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:40:00 -
[248]
the sub type of radar would be cool , what ever they do to replace local i hope it matched the astethics of space
or even better use it in conjunction with WIS , have like the " space you own" bit in the map room and it tracks all the people that enter and exit your border but once they are inside you have to look for them yourself, so you could see who comes into your sov but you still have to find them in your space. of course it can be used using the regular map aswell
My main has the flu but i am still here
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:40:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Goumindong I never said that "local was the cure for blobbing" i said that if you reduce the information in the system people will blob more. That is pretty simple and incontrovertible.
I controverted your supposition in my post above. Turns out there's nothing "incontrovertible" about it. However it was simple, or rather - simplistic.
For some strange reason you also refuse to consider that the 'missing' Local intel would be provided by a different system at some reasonable compromise.
Because this whole thread is "remove local now put in an alternative when there is time, but it is not important". The pro post are almost all about how it will be wonderful to remove local, without proposing any alternate system.
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Armoured Gamer
Gallente Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:42:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Goumindong I never said that "local was the cure for blobbing" i said that if you reduce the information in the system people will blob more. That is pretty simple and incontrovertible.
I controverted your supposition in my post above. Turns out there's nothing "incontrovertible" about it. However it was simple, or rather - simplistic.
For some strange reason you also refuse to consider that the 'missing' Local intel would be provided by a different system at some reasonable compromise.
Because this whole thread is "remove local now put in an alternative when there is time, but it is not important". The pro post are almost all about how it will be wonderful to remove local, without proposing any alternate system.
well of course a alternate thing will have to pbe put in it place check my post above you >_>
My main has the flu but i am still here
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.04 07:58:00 -
[251]
cant comment further till ccp give us the test server to see whats being proposed perhaps this week
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Primnproper
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:51:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 03/02/2009 00:12:11 Just do not show up in local until you are in system for at least 2 minutes
A fast small roaming gang will give their targets incorrect information about numbers. A ratter who is using a bot or opensource program will be dead by the time a target shows up. You know that badly run gatecamp that relys on a NPC alt seeing local numbers explode a jump away as a warning? Well, its going to actually make more fights happen. A titan pilot who jumps in will have a bit of time to setup rather than witness a mass logoff/warpout just becauses he is seen in local etc.
No point removing local, just evolve it. A 2 min delay is pretty reasonable, and easy to RP in for those that way inclined.
Not the most balanced suggestion I've ever heard, anyone ratting or mining in system will always be at a disadvantage becuase they will already be in local by the time nmes turn up meaning the hunters get perfect instant intel (like they do now) but the targets don't....
This is exactly the sort of suggestion that will stop us from ever having local removed your making it sound like you want it to be a huge nerf to npcers and miners and a huge buff to piracy/hunting. |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:21:00 -
[253]
prevent claoking devices working in wormhole space |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:24:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Goumindong I never said that "local was the cure for blobbing" i said that if you reduce the information in the system people will blob more. That is pretty simple and incontrovertible.
I controverted your supposition in my post above. Turns out there's nothing "incontrovertible" about it. However it was simple, or rather - simplistic.
For some strange reason you also refuse to consider that the 'missing' Local intel would be provided by a different system at some reasonable compromise.
Because this whole thread is "remove local now put in an alternative when there is time, but it is not important". The pro post are almost all about how it will be wonderful to remove local, without proposing any alternate system.
Actually this thread if you had bothered to read the op is about getting ccp to make this feature a develpoment priority not lulz just do it nao. What others have tried to pervert the thread into be it a twitch 'omg don't take local from empire/0.0' or trying to use k-space logic to argue about known w-space mechanics or other deveations are out of my control. Can ccp pull it off by launch? I have no idea but surely having over 10000 views with the vast majority in aggrement is going to tell ccp that hey maybe this feature is indeed a higher priority than they/we thought. Besides they seems pretty confident they can pull off other stuff like totally redoing the probe mechanics before launch if this quote is any indication. So I guess the real question should be if four weeks is enough to form another scrum team to impliment the needed mechanics to make a delayed local in w-space a viable proposition.
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Tabare Vazquez Good to know that design has not been finalized six weeks before Apocrypha hits Tranquility.
Originally by: Raymon James its what 6 weeks untill this goes live and you havent gotten to that bit yet? yeep!
For Apocrypha we have been split into teams, each with its own programmers, designers and QA staff (we're working according to Agile and Scrum project management methodology). In the last six weeks my team have built a new scanning system, added 2500 solar systems to New Eden, worked out the mechanics to get pilots there and back and designed the implementation of the game content in the W-systems. The artists attached to the team have created some amazing models and content which is unlike anything you have seen before.
You may think six weeks is not a lot of time, but my experience from the last month and a half is that my team is able to complete their tasks and then some. They have responded within a day to problems requiring reworking of game designs. They even managed to put in some improvements that were not strictly speaking part of their remit, simply because they realised it was possible and decided to go for it without ever losing sight of the main objective. I am extremely proud of what we have achieved and I have full confidence in their abilities to not only finish this feature but adapt it based on feedback. We have six weeks to release. This feature will be awesome.
You can do it CCP we have faith in you! |
Hanro Gaishou
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.02.04 12:08:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Mr Xanatos No insta local in W-Hole space please. I plan to spend a lot of time exploring this new content and an insta local would ruin it for me. I want true exploration, I dont want to feel safe, I want to be on the edge of me seat trying to rat, salvage, scan, explore and the whole time not knowing what (or who) is around the next corner.
If there is a regular local and it spikes then i'll just cloak up or leave the W-Hole, I might aswell just go to null or low sec to rat.
Insta local will wreck W-Hole space, lets have an area of Eve that truely gives pilots some adventure and suprises.
This |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:08:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Razin à For some strange reason you also refuse to consider that the 'missing' Local intel would be provided by a different system at some reasonable compromise.
Because this whole thread is "remove local now put in an alternative when there is time, but it is not important". The pro post are almost all about how it will be wonderful to remove local, without proposing any alternate system.
I didnÆt get this impression. In fact, CCP has stated on many (every?) occasion when they bothered to comment on this issue, that Local intel will be replaced by a more appropriate scanning system, and so most who vote in favor of ænerfing LocalÆ already have in mind that it will be replaced by something else.
This thread, and others that came before it, contains many proposals for the new scanning system and/or different Local mechanics. Not sure why you arenÆt seeing them. ...
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prodalt
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:46:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Goumindong I never said that "local was the cure for blobbing" i said that if you reduce the information in the system people will blob more. That is pretty simple and incontrovertible.
I controverted your supposition in my post above. Turns out there's nothing "incontrovertible" about it. However it was simple, or rather - simplistic.
Saying something is so is not the same as it being so. You've made no logical support as to why blobbing will not increase. Its very simple economics. If you increase the cost of an activity, the activity will be pursued less and activities which mitigate those costs more will increase in frequency.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:47:00 -
[258]
Again, above is me. Damn default character
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.04 16:04:00 -
[259]
Originally by: prodalt
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Goumindong I never said that "local was the cure for blobbing" i said that if you reduce the information in the system people will blob more. That is pretty simple and incontrovertible.
I controverted your supposition in my post above. Turns out there's nothing "incontrovertible" about it. However it was simple, or rather - simplistic.
Saying something is so is not the same as it being so. You've made no logical support as to why blobbing will not increase. Its very simple economics. If you increase the cost of an activity, the activity will be pursued less and activities which mitigate those costs more will increase in frequency.
So care to explain to me how you do the standard k-space blob tactics using infinite mass permaconnect stargates and capship spamming cynos in a w-space system with no cynos and limited access due to running out of mass closing the randomly spawning wormhole? |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.04 16:49:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Razin on 04/02/2009 16:50:06
Originally by: prodalt
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Goumindong I never said that "local was the cure for blobbing" i said that if you reduce the information in the system people will blob more. That is pretty simple and incontrovertible.
I controverted your supposition in my post above. Turns out there's nothing "incontrovertible" about it. However it was simple, or rather - simplistic.
Saying something is so is not the same as it being so. You've made no logical support as to why blobbing will not increase. Its very simple economics. If you increase the cost of an activity, the activity will be pursued less and activities which mitigate those costs more will increase in frequency.
Indeed. Your logic is missing two important pieces: the additional new tools that provide a reasonable replacement for Local intel (thereby mitigating the ôcostö impact), and the reasons people choose a certain style of play in EVE (this being a PvP game, after all). The two combine to significantly weaken your assertion.
Edit: grammar |
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.02.04 18:40:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Primnproper
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 03/02/2009 00:12:11 Just do not show up in local until you are in system for at least 2 minutes
A fast small roaming gang will give their targets incorrect information about numbers. A ratter who is using a bot or opensource program will be dead by the time a target shows up. You know that badly run gatecamp that relys on a NPC alt seeing local numbers explode a jump away as a warning? Well, its going to actually make more fights happen. A titan pilot who jumps in will have a bit of time to setup rather than witness a mass logoff/warpout just becauses he is seen in local etc.
No point removing local, just evolve it. A 2 min delay is pretty reasonable, and easy to RP in for those that way inclined.
Not the most balanced suggestion I've ever heard, anyone ratting or mining in system will always be at a disadvantage becuase they will already be in local by the time nmes turn up meaning the hunters get perfect instant intel (like they do now) but the targets don't....
This is exactly the sort of suggestion that will stop us from ever having local removed your making it sound like you want it to be a huge nerf to npcers and miners and a huge buff to piracy/hunting.
Thats the point. Just now the NPCer or Miner has a massive advantage, since they have a huge head start and can logoff or warp out, safe in the knowledge that targets will take at least a minute to track the belt and exit warp. It will force solo players to mine/rat as a group insted of the comedy we have just now. If you want to make isk off 0.0/low sec, then you need to take the risk and you can hedge the risk by working as a proper balanced group insted of solo ratter/miner etc.
Imagine a mining op in dangerous but profitable space done as a well run group but with a proper guards at the gate to give ample warning and/or to delay the invaders while the gang gets out. Before you say "omg blob vs us", you have to remember that more people would solo pvp or small gang pvp more if there was no instant 100% accurate info in local.
The other main aspect, which is more important, is that anyone can setup a half assed gatecamp with a npc alt as a scout in the system next door. If you want to bust that gatecamp, then the enemy will logoff/warp the second they see you in local a jump away. With opensource Screen readers now publicly available, anybody can download them and set it to ring a alarm if a red or neutral enters local. The NPC alt scout no longer needs to look at the screen in order to be able to scout!
Its all about bringing back the risk to people wanting to profit via pvp/npc activites in 0.0. What is the risk to someone using a screen reader to ping a alarm when a non-blue enters local? Removing local is bad but a short delay to people entering system to appear on local would bring back solo/small gang pvp and create more balanced npc/mining gangs. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:34:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:36:07
Originally by: Razin
Indeed. Your logic is missing two important pieces: the additional new tools that provide a reasonable replacement for Local intel (thereby mitigating the ôcostö impact), and the reasons people choose a certain style of play in EVE (this being a PvP game, after all). The two combine to significantly weaken your assertion.
Edit: grammar
1. There is none as of yet. Saying "remove local if you implement another local that just isn't called local and/or you don't chat in" is pretty pointless.
2. Nope, i've accounted for that.
They weaken no assertion.
Originally by: Zeba So care to explain to me how you do the standard k-space blob tactics staged from a static base using infinite mass permaconnect stargates and capship spamming cynos in a w-space system? Please spell out how you blob the same w-space with no cynos and limited access due to the hole running out of mass and closing then randomly respawning which will likely reopen 40 systems away in a system you will never scan out because its random and you have no way to reliably find the same w-system from k-space until you poke your head through and look? EXPLAIN THIS TO ME PLEASE.
Its pretty easy, you bring more ships. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:38:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Lord WarATron It will force solo players to mine/rat as a group insted of the comedy we have just now
People mining in a group will just die as a group(to a larger forces that jumps into them without them knowing). That or they would be more profitable in empire based on the amount of time and effort they would have to spend for protection. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:43:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Goumindong Its pretty easy, you bring more ships.
How? You can't cyno in any ships and the mass allowance might not let you bring enough ships to outnumber the locals already in the system. You can bring a prober to find another entrance once inside to get moar ships in but that is no guarrentee it will be anywhere near your k-space stranded memmbers.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:46:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Goumindong Its pretty easy, you bring more ships.
How? You can't cyno in any ships and the mass allowance might not let you bring enough ships to outnumber the locals already in the system. You can bring a prober to find another entrance once inside to get moar ships in but that is no guarrentee it will be anywhere near your k-space stranded memmbers.
How did they get more ships into the system than you?
A: the same way you get more ships into the system than them
How is them getting more ships into the system than you not blobbing?
I mean really, "it won't be blobbing because we can only get 150 cruisers into the system at a time!"?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:50:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Imagine a mining op in dangerous but profitable space done as a well run group but with a proper guards at the gate to give ample warning and/or to delay the invaders while the gang gets out. Before you say "omg blob vs us", you have to remember that more people would solo pvp or small gang pvp more if there was no instant 100% accurate info in local.
Basic question: as defending the mining ops with ship in the belt is useless (the barges/exumers can be popped extremely fast and the attacker has a good chance to flee without losing anything), the only way to defend the miners is cam p the gate for the whole mining ops duration.
Are you offering yourself to do the guard duty? Or you are offering some "allied" corporation member to what is one of the most boring thing to do?
You will pay me to do the guard duty?
As you are requesting the removal of local from low sec too, if I am not mistaken, will you compensate in some way my loss of sec status for blocking any intruder?
Sorry, but changing a game so that some profession become impossible unless someone is willing to do a extremely boring and long activity don't work.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:55:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Zeba Actually this thread if you had bothered to read the op is about getting ccp to make this feature a develpoment priority not lulz just do it nao. What others have tried to pervert the thread into be it a twitch 'omg don't take local from empire/0.0' or trying to use k-space logic to argue about known w-space mechanics or other deveations are out of my control. Can ccp pull it off by launch? I have no idea but surely having over 10000 views with the vast majority in aggrement is going to tell ccp that hey maybe this feature is indeed a higher priority than they/we thought. Besides they seems pretty confident they can pull off other stuff like totally redoing the probe mechanics before launch if this quote is any indication. So I guess the real question should be if four weeks is enough to form another scrum team to impliment the needed mechanics to make a delayed local in w-space a viable proposition.
As usual you are very expert in spewing false facts.
10.000 readers, 254 post with your, a lot of them from the same people, about 50% favorable, 10% against, the other comments. Way different from "over 10000 views with the vast majority in agreement".
BTW: I have read your OP, your title and your other post. They sum up to "remove local from W-space now. I don't care for any replacement".
The whole of favorable posts in the thread sum up to "Remove local. I don't care for any replacement".
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:05:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Goumindong Its pretty easy, you bring more ships.
How? You can't cyno in any ships and the mass allowance might not let you bring enough ships to outnumber the locals already in the system. You can bring a prober to find another entrance once inside to get moar ships in but that is no guarrentee it will be anywhere near your k-space stranded memmbers.
How did they get more ships into the system than you?
A: the same way you get more ships into the system than them
How is them getting more ships into the system than you not blobbing?
I mean really, "it won't be blobbing because we can only get 150 cruisers into the system at a time!"?
150? Thats like 1,680,000,000 in mass or in laymans terms not gonna happen even with the rarest of high mass wormholes. Point is it will take lots of effort that the normal pvp roamers are not going to be arsed to do to bring crushing numbers to a fight in w-space and that alone will cut down on the simplistic cyno/blob mechanics so loved in k-space in addition to any others blob killing mechanics that are revealed in the coming weeks. You know those mechanics, the ones the goons swear by, the vastly bigger fleet that warps around unrestricted from system to system looking for some tidbits to pwn then they warp to a gate and pwn the 4 campers who were semi-afk and didn't notice local jump or whatever totally outnumbered pvp situation you can think up. Now 20 ships vs 30 ships in a w-system will not be a blob just a good fight. And I know I shouldn't be argueing with you cause your just going to spout some other twitch nonsense in the endless circle of troll but damnit its so easy to counter your every 'argument' I just can't help myself. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:14:00 -
[269]
So basically the current situation is this:
Most people would enjoy having no local in Wormholes, at very least, they find it amusing to try. (many people debate local chat in non-wormhole space but that's another issue). CCP say that while that would make the game more interesting, doing this won't serve them any practical purpose, they don't get any useful data out of it and they don't want to give players the impression that they actually want people to enjoy their game. heh
You'll get new game content, but god forbid you enjoy it more than you are supposed to. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:19:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Venkul Mul As usual you are very expert in spewing false facts.
10.000 readers, 254 post with your, a lot of them from the same people, about 50% favorable, 10% against, the other comments. Way different from "over 10000 views with the vast majority in agreement".
BTW: I have read your OP, your title and your other post. They sum up to "remove local from W-space now. I don't care for any replacement".
The whole of favorable posts in the thread sum up to "Remove local. I don't care for any replacement".
Its called statistics. The same logic that the Nelson ratings use to sample a very small population to get an overall indication of the mass viewers inclinations. Works exactly the same for the forums. 10000+ views mean lots of people are reading it and with very little opposition, except for you and some random argumentative goons, everyone and (be sure to pay attention this next part is key) the Devs are in agreement that as soon as a viable mechanic is found to replace the functionality of local for w-space they will impliment it. Also there is no w-space now so I can't force them to put it in NAO as there are still 4 weeks left to properly develop the expansion. So the result is I and the majority of others want it to happen when w-space hits on march 10. The devs have already stated that the time left is moar than enought to do stuff like completely redo probe mechanics by launch and that no local for w-space was a desired feature but was not a high enough priority. Well now we know it is in fact a high priority so maybe ccp can pull another scrum team together and have it ready for m10? That is all I have asked for the entire thread. That ccp reconsider their descision and allocate a scrum team to put it in.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:29:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Razin
Indeed. Your logic is missing two important pieces: the additional new tools that provide a reasonable replacement for Local intel (thereby mitigating the ôcostö impact), and the reasons people choose a certain style of play in EVE (this being a PvP game, after all). The two combine to significantly weaken your assertion.
1. There is none as of yet. Saying "remove local if you implement another local that just isn't called local and/or you don't chat in" is pretty pointless.
IMO your above statement makes very little sense. The ænerf LocalÆ debate has evolved to revolve around this very proposition (supported by CCP). ThatÆs why saying ôremoving Local will cause unresolvable problemsö is pointless, since it completely ignores the proposed replacement mechanic designed to resolve those problems.
Originally by: Goumindong 2. Nope, i've accounted for that.
They weaken no assertion.
No you didnÆt. As a result of this change people will either continue playing or quit. If they quit they are no longer at issue in this debate. If they continue playing they will still be playing in the same way as before, with some modifications due to new mechanics (see above statement about new scanner). Same as those who either quit or continued after the WCS nerf, or gate sentries, or WTZ, or HP buff, or speed nerf, etc. People either blob (which they do to the point of not being able to do anything), or they specifically go it alone, or in small gangs, because they enjoy that much better regardless of the firepower or other disadvantages. Nothing will change that, since this is a game, and in a game RL rules do not always apply. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 20:35:00 -
[272]
Don't bother debating with Goumindong, nothing productive can come if it, he's like a being from parallel universe where rules of logic are different. |
Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 21:10:00 -
[273]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 04/02/2009 21:13:37
Originally by: Razin IMO your above statement makes very little sense. The ‘nerf Local’ debate has evolved to revolve around this very proposition (supported by CCP). That’s why saying “removing Local will cause unresolvable problems” is pointless, since it completely ignores the proposed replacement mechanic designed to resolve those problems.
This is pointless for some others reasons in fact, when we speak about Local in all regions (not W-Space).
For the moment, I see 3 general problems with some of the proposed replacement mechanics that I read in the forum :
- They require some efforts. Yes I know the point of view of some of the Local whiners. But EvE is a game. Have to do more things or act more to be able to get intel is not really acceptable, as we already lose much time in EvE without have fun (travel, etc...).
- They require more teamwork. Like special modules or others things, need more teamwork is not acceptable, same if EvE is an MMORPG. Use our time to scout someone at each time is not fun for the scout, or to add more POS, etc...
- They require some sacrifices And this is the individual part of the player who will be shocked. The hunter has probably some bad consequences too from a replacement mechanic, but the hunted too. Who will be the more annoyed ? I bet for the hunted. I doubt this could raise the 0.0 population.
After that we can add more things, like more work for the server (yes I know, CCP can find something or add more servers, but with the nearly fail of Stackless IO...), or the Recon Ship mandatory, etc...
W-Space don't have to have Local, this is a fact, but in all others regions, Local is fine. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 21:13:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Ephemeron Don't bother debating with Goumindong, nothing productive can come if it, he's like a being from parallel universe where rules of logic are different.
Its a sad day when I have to agree with you |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 21:14:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Sky Marshal W-Space don't have to have Local, but in all others regions... Local is fine.
Thanks for agreeing as w-space is the only place being debated in this thread regardless of all the efforts to draw it into a general 'onos no local 4 lowse/0.0??!? omgomg noooo!' circular argument. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 21:22:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/02/2009 21:24:23
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Imagine a mining op in dangerous but profitable space done as a well run group but with a proper guards at the gate to give ample warning and/or to delay the invaders while the gang gets out. Before you say "omg blob vs us", you have to remember that more people would solo pvp or small gang pvp more if there was no instant 100% accurate info in local.
Basic question: as defending the mining ops with ship in the belt is useless (the barges/exumers can be popped extremely fast and the attacker has a good chance to flee without losing anything), the only way to defend the miners is cam p the gate for the whole mining ops duration.
Are you offering yourself to do the guard duty? Or you are offering some "allied" corporation member to what is one of the most boring thing to do?
You will pay me to do the guard duty?
I am not against local. I would like to see a short delay before appearing in local, which will help solo/small gang pvpers who get wtfblobbed by people unable to comprehend anything other than mass numbers. You are aware that what you mine will become more valuble, due to increased risk thus less supply? But thats not really the true issue, now is it?
So you want conqurable space but not the hassle of securing the borders? You want 0.0 ratting/mining but without the risk attached of somebody being able to jump you?
0.0 truly is becoming the land of the carebear. |
Mordrake
Orbital Anvil Technologies
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 21:30:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
I am not against local. I would like to see a short delay before appearing in local, which will help solo/small gang pvpers who get wtfblobbed by people unable to comprehend anything other than mass numbers. You are aware that what you mine will become more valuble, due to increased risk thus less supply? But thats not really the true issue, now is it?
So you want conqurable space but not the hassle of securing the borders? You want 0.0 ratting/mining but without the risk attached of somebody being able to jump you?
0.0 truly is becoming the land of the carebear.
It always has been, secured by their PVP Alts. |
Mordrake
Orbital Anvil Technologies
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 21:42:00 -
[278]
Edited by: Mordrake on 04/02/2009 21:45:10
As to this debate over W-Space, there should be NO LOCAL, the stargates are what updates your ships computer in High sec and 0.0 as to who is in System with you.
Man made structures of steel and electronics and high technology.
W-Space is just that WILD
There are worm holes punching through it and constantly changing like maggots through a carcass... there are no Star Gates to feed your computer information on who is in the system you are in.
Additionally if you come through a wormhole from W-Space into 0.0 or Empire I feel you should be stealthed in local...... IE: DO NOT APPEAR IN LOCAL OR BE ABLE TO SEE LOCAL Until you go through a Stargate.
Including Local in any way will ruin this...
"Arte et Marte" |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 21:44:00 -
[279]
Quote: 0.0 truly is becoming the land of the carebear.
The main reason it is so is because of the POS jump bridges. There are many other reasons too, local is one of them. But jump bridges are by far the worst. You'll never even see freighter escorts anymore - people will laugh if you suggest it. Cause it's safer than high sec empire.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 22:06:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Sky Marshal à when we speak about Local in all regions (not W-Space).
Just the 0.0 space (which would include w-space)
Originally by: Sky Marshal For the moment, I see 3 general problems with some of the proposed replacement mechanics that I read in the forum :
- They require some efforts. Yes I know the point of view of some of the Local whiners. But EvE is a game. Have to do more things or act more to be able to get intel is not really acceptable, as we already lose much time in EvE without have fun (travel, etc...).
The whole point of the new system would be to add more effort to receiving system-wide intel. The mechanic could add good complexity without being complicated or cumbersome. It all depends on the execution.
And I donÆt see your problem with travel. Between the WTZ, jump-clones, and jump-bridges, travel time has been cut down to almost nothing. If you want instant ôfunö perhaps something like BF2 would be more to your liking. This is a space game, and space is big.
Originally by: Sky Marshal
- They require more teamwork. Like special modules or others things, need more teamwork is not acceptable, same if EvE is an MMORPG. Use our time to scout someone at each time is not fun for the scout, or to add more POS, etc...
With or without Local you need a scout to see whatÆs in the next system, or you jump blind. This is not impacted by the changes under discussion.
Originally by: Sky Marshal
- They require some sacrifices And this is the individual part of the player who will be shocked. The hunter has probably some bad consequences too from a replacement mechanic, but the hunted too. Who will be the more annoyed ? I bet for the hunted. I doubt this could raise the 0.0 population.
Yes, thatÆs right, the god-like omniscience of Local would be sacrificed for a more complex and tactical gameplay that would shock the rat farmers. I donÆt see a problem.
And I donÆt think that 0.0 population needs to be any larger, though, in my opinion, this kind of change will increase it.
Originally by: Sky Marshal
After that we can add more things, like more work for the server (yes I know, CCP can find something or add more servers, but with the nearly fail of Stackless IO...),...
Stackless IO a failure?? Over 1000 in Local, most of those on the same grid fighting, and the node stays up. DoesnÆt sound like failure to me. Sure, it still has bugs, some pretty annoying, but not to the point of being a failure. ...
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Kash Ka
Amarr Black Rise Angels
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 23:08:00 -
[281]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 23:09:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Razin
IMO your above statement makes very little sense. The ænerf LocalÆ debate has evolved to revolve around this very proposition (supported by CCP). ThatÆs why saying ôremoving Local will cause unresolvable problemsö is pointless, since it completely ignores the proposed replacement mechanic designed to resolve those problems.
No, it really hasn't. The "nerf local" debate has always revolved around reducing the information present in the system. If it wasn't there would be no debate. Since there would be no difference from the beginning system to the ending system.
Quote:
No you didnÆt. As a result of this change people will either continue playing or quit. If they quit they are no longer at issue in this debate. If they continue playing they will still be playing in the same way as before, with some modifications due to new mechanics
So they won't be playing in the same way as before? Because they've modified something.
Look, there are important things when you consider what occurs.
1. What behavior is modified? 2. Whose behavior is modified?
If no one changes anything that they do, but the people who enjoy playing solo leave the game because they can no longer do so then what has happened?
A: people left the game and blobbing got more common.
But even then, the idea that people won't change the way they play is pretty dumb. People always change the decisions they make when you change the risks and payouts of those decisions. Just like people fit less WCS when they were nerfed, people will fly alone less when the ability to protect yourself from larger forces is nerfed.
Quote: they specifically go it alone, or in small gangs, because they enjoy that much better regardless of the firepower or other disadvantages.
O.K. so the people that enjoy small gangs start going out, and they find that because they can't run away from big gangs as easily they have three options.
1. Leave the game 2. Flail uselessly against larger gangs 3. Get in a larger gang
Small gang and solo combat works because smaller gangs can choose not to engage larger gangs. Without that, they offer no advantage over more people.
Quote: Nothing will change that, since this is a game, and in a game RL rules do not always apply
Economics always applies. No matter how much you want to ignore how people make decisions, they're making decisions. They get benefit out of an action, it has risks, and it has costs. Games are just a set of options with defined benefits, costs, and risks(some known, some unknown). If you deny that, then you are woefully unqualified to be discussing the issue. |
Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2009.02.04 23:43:00 -
[283]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 04/02/2009 23:44:22
Originally by: Razin Just the 0.0 space (which would include w-space)
No, this topic speaks about W-Space (same if some want see local nerfed everywhere). 0.0 is not concerned.
Originally by: Razin The whole point of the new system would be to add more effort to receiving system-wide intel. The mechanic could add good complexity without being complicated or cumbersome. It all depends on the execution.
And I don’t see your problem with travel. Between the WTZ, jump-clones, and jump-bridges, travel time has been cut down to almost nothing. If you want instant “fun” perhaps something like BF2 would be more to your liking. This is a space game, and space is big.
You focus to small details while I speak about something general. It is not a problem only about travel (and I don't think that stuff can be jump-cloned etc...). Intel can be used for others things, like hunt, etc... and the effort required by a replacement can exceed the expected fun.
Too much realism, so efforts, kill fun.
Quote: With or without Local you need a scout to see what’s in the next system, or you jump blind. This is not impacted by the changes under discussion.
As stated just before, you focus to small details when I speak about something general. Scouting but also Pos management but many others things can be impacted, and same if EvE is a MMORPG, have to use more often a team to do even small operations can be frustating. Many speaks about the end of the solo pvp after all...
Oh, and your exemple is impacted, if we survive to a camp, as the intel could be difficult to be retrieved, dependind of the quality of the replacement system.
Quote: Yes, that’s right, the god-like omniscience of Local would be sacrificed for a more complex and tactical gameplay that would shock the rat farmers. I don’t see a problem.
Less fun ? Also, explain "complex and tactical gameplay", please.
I know that the majority of the forum posters use stereotypes, like this would affect only carebears... Minimizing the problem is not a solution.
Quote: Stackless IO a failure?? Over 1000 in Local, most of those on the same grid fighting, and the node stays up. Doesn’t sound like failure to me. Sure, it still has bugs, some pretty annoying, but not to the point of being a failure.
1000 in Local, it was in the two months who followed the Stackless coming out.
Today, it is like the node crash of LBC-AW (12/01/2009) for the last I see (I don't play everyday), difficulties to have accurate informations from overview, etc...
I have to continue ?
Ok, I have to admit that most battles who was impossible before, are today doable, but this costs in a daily basis. I never see so much rollbacks in my EvE life, this each day. And overview constant bugs ("not at range to jump ?" You're joking, I am at 100 meters of the gate...), etc... And no, this is not a local problem, sorry, or I would be the only one concerned.
If you prefer, I retire the word "failure", I will say "must be improved". |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 14:21:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Goumindong The "nerf local" debate has always revolved around reducing the information present in the system. If it wasn't there would be no debate. Since there would be no difference from the beginning system to the ending system.
ItÆs not about reducing the information present; itÆs about making all of it available only under certain circumstances. Can you grasp the difference? This is key to your misunderstanding and misinterpreting this whole debate.
The rest of your post is opinion that is not necessarily based on any kind of past experience, as IÆve noted in one of my previous posts. And, as we know, everyoneÆs got one. ...
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 14:29:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 05/02/2009 00:00:48
Originally by: Razin Just the 0.0 space (which would include w-space)
No, this topic speaks about W-Space (same if some want see local nerfed everywhere). 0.0 is not concerned.
Well, IÆm commenting on all of 0.0, so there!)
Quote: àToo much realism, so efforts, kill funà
This seems to be your biggest concern, and weÆll just have to agree to disagree. IÆd like more involvement in flying my ship; you think any more involvement in an already complex game is bad. You have a valid opinion that I happened to disagree with. I guess weÆll have to see where CCP takes us.
...
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.02.05 14:47:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Imagine a mining op in dangerous but profitable space done as a well run group but with a proper guards at the gate to give ample warning and/or to delay the invaders while the gang gets out. Before you say "omg blob vs us", you have to remember that more people would solo pvp or small gang pvp more if there was no instant 100% accurate info in local.
Basic question: as defending the mining ops with ship in the belt is useless (the barges/exumers can be popped extremely fast and the attacker has a good chance to flee without losing anything), the only way to defend the miners is cam p the gate for the whole mining ops duration.
Are you offering yourself to do the guard duty? Or you are offering some "allied" corporation member to what is one of the most boring thing to do?
You will pay me to do the guard duty?
I am not against local. I would like to see a short delay before appearing in local, which will help solo/small gang pvpers who get wtfblobbed by people unable to comprehend anything other than mass numbers. You are aware that what you mine will become more valuble, due to increased risk thus less supply? But thats not really the true issue, now is it?
So you want conqurable space but not the hassle of securing the borders? You want 0.0 ratting/mining but without the risk attached of somebody being able to jump you?
0.0 truly is becoming the land of the carebear.
What hypoctite. I already asked you what you mean with "delayed" and you reply was this:
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Just do not show up in local until you are in system for at least 2 minutes
A fast small roaming gang will give their targets incorrect information about numbers. A ratter who is using a bot or opensource program will be dead by the time a target shows up. You know that badly run gatecamp that relys on a NPC alt seeing local numbers explode a jump away as a warning? Well, its going to actually make more fights happen. A titan pilot who jumps in will have a bit of time to setup rather than witness a mass logoff/warpout just becauses he is seen in local etc.
No point removing local, just evolve it. A 2 min delay is pretty reasonable, and easy to RP in for those that way inclined.
So you want your target with a big "we are here" sign, but you should instead be invisible?
A 2 minute delay that affect only who is already in system is even worse that removing it completely. You want your target on a silver platter, with extra condiment on top.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 09:07:00 -
[287]
From another wormhole thread: Originally by: CCP Whisper
Originally by: Dr Resheph That sounds like your name only shows up if you speak. But calling it delayed mode implies it'll show up after x minutes. Which is it?
"Delayed Mode" is our term for functionality whereby your portrait only shows up in local chat once you have said something. There is no timer. It is entirely dependent on whether or not you say something in the channel.
Victory! *\0/*
Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you! CCP Rocks!
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
CyberGh0st
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 10:18:00 -
[288]
Social interaction will suffer, find a solution for that 1st imho.
What I don't understand is when people say " but if you can still talk in delayed mode " , well DUH and then people know I am there, so most of the time one will want to avoid talk so you can't be spotted.
I am not sure how W-space is going to work, so I don't know if constellation chat could be a solution ...
Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 10:28:00 -
[289]
Originally by: CyberGh0st Social interaction will suffer, find a solution for that 1st imho.
Well its pretty apparent from test server results that w-space is going to be a team activity for even the low end systems so you will always have your corp mates to interact with. Anyone else is the system is a potential hostile so your not really going to want to interact with them and give up the fact there is indeed someone else in the system. Now once combat initiates you can of course do all the normal 'social interaction' in local that is so adorable in moast pvp encounters.
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Tammaria Snegallja
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 10:47:00 -
[290]
(without reading 10 pages)
As an ice miner in 0.0, my worst nightmare is not some bad guys coming through the gates. We can counter that, with or without local---our intel usually gives warning 3 jumps out. It is people who logged off in the ice belt: 4 or 5 cheap T1 cruisers sneak in during the quiet hours and log off. The next day they coordinate to log in the same moment and take down 1 or 2 Macks---or an hauler (before being destroyed themselves). Happens all the time, and there is no working counter. Local doesn't help here at all.
But removing local would allow them to log in off-grid, scout, select targets, ..., in short: do more damage. And it would bring the "login&gank" danger to people who are not so stationary as ice miners (ice distributon forces us into a 30km area).
We already have in imbalance between people who shot at everything and people who don't want to be blown up. But at the moment it is still within the risk:reward range. (The last login-gank cost me about 30 hours of ice mining, but in sum, over the last year, I'm in the plus.) But every change to these machanics must be made extremly carefully, because it might trip that imbalance to a point where (people feel) it is no longer within that range.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.19 10:58:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Tammaria Snegallja (without reading 10 pages)
Well then you kind of missed the point that this thread is about w-space and not normal space. Local is still the same for empire and nullsec.
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Chimii Lecto
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 11:19:00 -
[292]
_________________________________
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Cypher Creed
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Posted - 2009.02.19 13:07:00 -
[293]
There's a very big issue people don't understand about local.
50-60% of all megacyte and zydrine come from 0.0 space.
lets assume for the moment that local is removed, without an equalising balance for the carebears.
Results:
1. 0.0 mining dies. 2. Megacyte and zydrine become increasingly rare. 3. Megacyte and Zydrine increase probably close to double thier current price, probably more. 4. Ship costs increase by a factor equal to the above. 5. Gankers have noone left to gank because noone is out mining... 6. Gankers have 0 income and cannot afford any of the ships that are now overly exspensive.
Local is the current mechanic that allows so much to occur in the game, unless it is replaced by something just as simple and easy to use as it is to scan someone down (IE, be able to detect someone entering and warp out faster then they can scan you down and warp to you (10 seconds or less for some people)) The game will simply collapse on itself.
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Cypher Creed
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Posted - 2009.02.19 13:12:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/02/2009 21:24:23
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Imagine a mining op in dangerous but profitable space done as a well run group but with a proper guards at the gate to give ample warning and/or to delay the invaders while the gang gets out. Before you say "omg blob vs us", you have to remember that more people would solo pvp or small gang pvp more if there was no instant 100% accurate info in local.
Basic question: as defending the mining ops with ship in the belt is useless (the barges/exumers can be popped extremely fast and the attacker has a good chance to flee without losing anything), the only way to defend the miners is cam p the gate for the whole mining ops duration.
Are you offering yourself to do the guard duty? Or you are offering some "allied" corporation member to what is one of the most boring thing to do?
You will pay me to do the guard duty?
I am not against local. I would like to see a short delay before appearing in local, which will help solo/small gang pvpers who get wtfblobbed by people unable to comprehend anything other than mass numbers. You are aware that what you mine will become more valuble, due to increased risk thus less supply? But thats not really the true issue, now is it?
So you want conqurable space but not the hassle of securing the borders? You want 0.0 ratting/mining but without the risk attached of somebody being able to jump you?
0.0 truly is becoming the land of the carebear.
right now, people are capable of scanning someone down in under 10 seconds (i know people who can do this) and if they're in a cruiser class (who doesn't small gang in a cruiser class?) they can be in warp in under 5 seconds, meaning they can be at thier target within 30 seconds of entering local. Battleships with FULL skills take 10-15 seconds to warp, Hulks and exhumers upwards of 25-30 seconds to warp. Now lets allow 10 seconds to notice a hostile, and then click to warp to a safespot/station/pos/whatever and oh crap... that's 40 seconds, gonna be a damn close one.
Please tell me how long this "delay" should be to keep this in the realm of fairness?
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.19 13:53:00 -
[295]
Whoa.. Jebus almighty Cypher Creed, thats a lot of text arguing about something that hasn't even happened yet or even planned to happen anytime soon. This thread is for wormhole space local only. Empire and nullsec are still using the normal local mechanics and will for quite some time to come.
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Lexandrius Megens
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:09:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Lexandrius Megens on 19/02/2009 14:12:04 Perhaps i missed something but why donÆt give both ways what they want?
We want to be able to chat with players in the same system, as that is a vital asset to the MMO eve is, yet at the same time we donÆt want local to be a source of information on who is there.
Solution is simple: Everyone can use local, but you just donÆt see any names in the local list. If you donÆt type something in local chat then they donÆt see you in the local list. If you do type in local chat, that shows your character in local list. Simple isn't it?
I believe this already is the case in the large NPC corp chats. If you donÆt chat you are not listed in the chat list, but you can see others chatting and you can also join them if you want, exposing you are there. This leaves the option all to the player to "stay hidden/cloaked and silent in a belt lurking" or call out and hope there are more friendlys in there with you, willing to help you out with slaying some sleeper rat you found.
Adds a nice risk vs reward to it doesn't it? IsnÆt this the most easy and best solution to the whole local problem? I bet it doesnÆt even take to much coding for the CCP geeks (the ones that can read zero's and ones and have those thick glasses --> )to fix something like this for all local chats in eve.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 14:12:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Lexandrius Megens Perhaps i missed something
Yes you did because thats exactly how it works.
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Lexandrius Megens
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Posted - 2009.02.19 14:13:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Lexandrius Megens Perhaps i missed something
Yes you did because thats exactly how it works.
Lol no it isnt... as when i am in 0.0 i can just keep local open and see who jumps in and out. So it isnt like that yet... |
Lexandrius Megens
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Posted - 2009.02.19 14:19:00 -
[299]
Edited by: Lexandrius Megens on 19/02/2009 14:20:25 Edited by: Lexandrius Megens on 19/02/2009 14:19:11
Quote:
"Delayed Mode" is our term for functionality whereby your portrait only shows up in local chat once you have said something. There is no timer. It is entirely dependent on whether or not you say something in the channel.
Got that in another topic from CCP Whisper.
Seems CCP picked the therm "delayed" a bit wrong as it implies a delay in time, whiles CCP means what i just typed 3 posts above. Anyway, in that case BIG THUMBS UP for delayed local!
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.19 14:19:00 -
[300]
Edited by: Zeba on 19/02/2009 14:24:23
Originally by: Lexandrius Megens
*\0/*
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
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Lexandrius Megens
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Posted - 2009.02.19 14:22:00 -
[301]
Edited by: Lexandrius Megens on 19/02/2009 14:23:56
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Lexandrius Megens
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Lexandrius Megens Perhaps i missed something
Yes you did because thats exactly how it works.
Lol no it isnt... as when i am in 0.0 i can just keep local open and see who jumps in and out. So it isnt like that yet...
Sooo.. Tell me, do you think this thread is about 0.0 or a wormhole system?
Your question is irrelevant... as my reply in how local works in 0.0 has got nothing to do with what i try to say. Its just to describe how local works atm. READ!!!
Anyway, this type of reply reminds me of why I sworn to not post on the forums anymore... thnx for reminding me. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.19 14:23:00 -
[302]
Quod Erat Demostrandum:
local has been put in delayed mode (in WH space for now) and no alternative method for detecting intruders efficiently has been implemented.
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Zackalwe
Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.19 14:33:00 -
[303]
This seems to be the correct thread to post this.
The promise from CCP was always "if we remove local we will add in a mechanic to replace it". What are they adding in to replace local? As far as I can tell nothing.
This will mean any ratters in W-space will have to be clicking scan every 2 seconds. This is just a terrible implementation, and is likely to prevent W-space being used as much as it should be. Trust CCP to bring out a load of really great content then **** it all up with a single oversight.
Basically a PvEer in W space has this choice to make:
1. Go to W-space, rat, and press scan every 2 seconds for hours on end to have any chance of surviving a gank.
2. Go to W-space and dont bother scanning, just automatically lose your ship to the first gank squad that comes through.
3. Dont go to W-space.
Im afraid to say most people are likely to choose 3.
Im all for removing local. BUT YOU NEED TO DO IT PROPERLY. Just removing local and not replacing it with anything else is fail.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.19 15:37:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Zackalwe Just removing local and not replacing it with anything else is fail.
Here let Prism X explain it out for you.
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
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