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Pteranodon
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Posted - 2009.01.03 23:36:00 -
[1]
I am about to fly my first cap ship the Thanatos.
Some questions
1. Shield & Armor remote repping-concentrate on one or have both?
2. High slots- smart bombs or drone link modules? is fielding more drones or fighters better?
3. A dozen fighters & hundreds of heavy tec2 & medium drones or more fighters & less normal drones or just a sensible numbers of both?
4. How do you fit your Thanatos?- faction or tec2?
5. EANM's or just tec2 passive hardeners- opinions please?
Sorry for loads of questions but the deeper I get into cap ships the more questions I seem to uncover. Thanks for any help & a Happy New year to all of you.
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yrknat
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Posted - 2009.01.03 23:42:00 -
[2]
1) Depends on your gang/what your doing. No point having armour RR when repping a POS
2) Never drone links
3) General rule is as many fighters as you can fit -1. The space left is more than enough for any other drones you bring with you.
4) Amarr navy eanms are like 20m per, so might as well. an expensive neut can be helpful as well.
5) EANMS, amarr navy style
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cynosuri
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Posted - 2009.01.03 23:44:00 -
[3]
Edited by: cynosuri on 03/01/2009 23:44:41
Originally by: Pteranodon I am about to fly my first cap ship the Thanatos.
Some questions
1. Shield & Armor remote repping-concentrate on one or have both?
2. High slots- smart bombs or drone link modules? is fielding more drones or fighters better?
3. A dozen fighters & hundreds of heavy tec2 & medium drones or more fighters & less normal drones or just a sensible numbers of both?
4. How do you fit your Thanatos?- faction or tec2?
5. EANM's or just tec2 passive hardeners- opinions please?
Sorry for loads of questions but the deeper I get into cap ships the more questions I seem to uncover. Thanks for any help & a Happy New year to all of you.
1. look at bonuses + mix 2. smartbombs primarily and just train a higher carrier skill. 3. 150% of the fighters you can field and ALOT of the other stuff. 4. tech2 - it's not worth faction stuff, as if you need to tank alot, your dead regardless of fit. 5. EANM's are great on anything :) |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 01:24:00 -
[4]
For answers to your specific questions, see above. As a carrier pilot you should keep in mind that your job is remote-repping, anything else (damage, local tank, buffer) comes second. A good all-round thanatos fit would be this:
[Thanatos, RRpage] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution ECCM - Magnetometric II
Large YF-12a Smartbomb Large YF-12a Smartbomb Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Shield Transporter I
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
You can swap for faction EANM, neuts and smartbombs when your wallet allows for it to increase its general effectiveness.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Nienna Fael
Sininen Talo
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Posted - 2009.01.04 03:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: yrknat 2) Never drone links
Emphasis on this, unless you want to end up as lolmail somewhere. For some reason the DCU x 27 failthoses tend to pop.
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Sirani
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.01.04 03:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sokratesz For answers to your specific questions, see above. As a carrier pilot you should keep in mind that your job is remote-repping, anything else (damage, local tank, buffer) comes second. A good all-round thanatos fit would be this:
[Thanatos, RRpage] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution ECCM - Magnetometric II
Large YF-12a Smartbomb Large YF-12a Smartbomb Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Shield Transporter I
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
You can swap for faction EANM, neuts and smartbombs when your wallet allows for it to increase its general effectiveness.
Since you seem to be the go-to guy for carriers, mind posting a good all round Chimera fit? (please) ------------------- |
Xiaodown
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 07:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sirani
Originally by: Sokratesz For answers to your specific questions, see above. As a carrier pilot you should keep in mind that your job is remote-repping, anything else (damage, local tank, buffer) comes second. A good all-round thanatos fit would be this:
[Thanatos, RRpage] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution ECCM - Magnetometric II
Large YF-12a Smartbomb Large YF-12a Smartbomb Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Shield Transporter I
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
You can swap for faction EANM, neuts and smartbombs when your wallet allows for it to increase its general effectiveness.
Since you seem to be the go-to guy for carriers, mind posting a good all round Chimera fit? (please)
Sok would just say:
Highs: Large YF-12a Smartbomb Large YF-12a Smartbomb Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Shield Transporter I
Mids: Cap shield repper Shield boost amp x1 3x invuln fields Sensor booster ECCM
Lows: 3x PDU 1x Damage control
Shield rigs.
(I kid, I kid, read sok's bio link. Always have heavy neut, smartbomb, cloak at least available for the highs, and then use CPR's and 2x Shield Boost Amps, with CCC's).
--
Sig under construction.
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.04 07:45:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 04/01/2009 07:56:00
Originally by: Nienna Fael
Originally by: yrknat 2) Never drone links
Emphasis on this, unless you want to end up as lolmail somewhere. For some reason the DCU x 27 failthoses tend to pop.
I really wish they would find a way to make drone controls a little better than laughable.
Originally by: Sokratesz
You can swap for faction EANM, neuts and smartbombs when your wallet allows for it to increase its general effectiveness.
Honestly, I would almost make AN EAMNs a must. If someone can't spare 45-50 mil for 2 faction EANMs, that should be a good sign that they can't really afford a carrier.
Out of curiosity, why is the standard carrier/mom rig setup not 2x CCC (T2 on mom), 1x semiconductor? It's around a 2.3% loss in cap recharge for a 15% increase in cap capacity, or 11250 cap on a thanny. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 11:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sirani
Since you seem to be the go-to guy for carriers, mind posting a good all round Chimera fit? (please)
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=953702&page=1#1
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Out of curiosity, why is the standard carrier/mom rig setup not 2x CCC (T2 on mom), 1x semiconductor? It's around a 2.3% loss in cap recharge for a 15% increase in cap capacity, or 11250 cap on a thanny.
Because you want minimum recharge time and sustained recharge amount, not a temporary buffer nor minimum recharge with ****ty recharge amount. Which is why PDU's, fluxes and SMC's don't qualify.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.04 13:01:00 -
[10]
Would recommend Guristas Large Smartbombs, simply because so cheap for what they are. And TS EANM.
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.04 21:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Because you want minimum recharge time and sustained recharge amount, not a temporary buffer
I'm still somewhat skeptical that an 8.5-9 cap/s. loss (equivalent to 1 small neut) is not worth 11250 in added cap capacity on a thanny. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Originally by: Sokratesz
Because you want minimum recharge time and sustained recharge amount, not a temporary buffer
I'm still somewhat skeptical that an 8.5-9 cap/s. loss (equivalent to 1 small neut) is not worth 11250 in added cap capacity on a thanny.
You lose 18% recharge *time* which is a lot more valuable. In a long fight, buffer isn't 'it'. Sustained is.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sokratesz For answers to your specific questions, see above. As a carrier pilot you should keep in mind that your job is remote-repping, anything else (damage, local tank, buffer) comes second. A good all-round thanatos fit would be this:
[Thanatos, RRpage] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution ECCM - Magnetometric II
Large YF-12a Smartbomb Large YF-12a Smartbomb Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Shield Transporter I
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
You can swap for faction EANM, neuts and smartbombs when your wallet allows for it to increase its general effectiveness.
Phew, that's not a lot of tank for a capital, if a gang called that primary it would go down pretty fast.
I guess its fine if you have other carriers there or lots of remote rep in your gang... - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: vostok
I guess its fine if you have other carriers there or lots of remote rep in your gang...
Solo carriers are pretty 2005 last I heard.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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vostok
Minmatar Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:16:00 -
[15]
Edited by: vostok on 04/01/2009 22:17:22
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: vostok
I guess its fine if you have other carriers there or lots of remote rep in your gang...
Solo carriers are pretty 2005 last I heard.
But a carrier with a gang of sub caps? There was me thinking low sec must have mods are now cyno gens...
Edit: fail (on phone) - Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.04 22:17:00 -
[16]
On the topic of drone control unit suckage, why not do this:
change carrier +1 drone per lvl to +20% drone hp/dmg per lvl and also change carrier drone bandwidth to allow a maximum of 7 or 8 fighters (8 is probably OP). This way DCU effectiveness is doubled, but the DPS ceiling is hopefully limited to non-ridiculous levels
Moms would get +1 drone and +20% drone hp/dmg per lvl instead of the +3 drones. drone bandwidth on carriers would be adjusted to allow 15 fighters. Not that I would expect many mom pilots to fit DCUs, but it increases them from "laughably stupid" to "useful, but only in a select few situations"
Of course, dronebays would have their capacities adjusted for balancing purposes.
This reduces lag in cap fights, reduces the ISK risk in fighters and makes DCUs a non-laughable item for certain purposes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.05 08:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 04/01/2009 22:23:37
Originally by: Sokratesz
You lose 18% recharge *time* which is a lot more valuable. In a long fight, buffer isn't 'it'. Sustained is.
A 15% increase in capacity is equivalent to a 13% increase in recharge time. And where are you getting 18% not 15%?
Adding to cap capacity does *not* alter recharge time. Example:
100 cap/100s
add smc, 115 cap/100s. 15% increase in cap/s, no change in recharge time add ccc, 100 cap/85s. 17.6% increase in cap/s, 17.6% decrease in recharge time
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Varrakk
Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.01.05 08:55:00 -
[18]
No, but a Semicondutor does affect optimal recharge. As a obvious drawback, it takes long to get jump ready.
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Rajere
No Trademark Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.05 09:02:00 -
[19]
The answer to most of your questions depends on what you are using it for.
Quote: 1. Shield & Armor remote repping-concentrate on one or have both?
1 Shield 1 Armor
Quote: 2. High slots- smart bombs or drone link modules? is fielding more drones or fighters better?
After Heavy Neuts & Remote Reps, Drone Control Modules = Hotdropping, otherwise don't fit them.
Quote: 3. A dozen fighters & hundreds of heavy tec2 & medium drones or more fighters & less normal drones or just a sensible numbers of both?
Generally 13-15 assorted fighters and the remaining drone bay is for T1 & T2 drones. Don't forget Ogre I's, they're basically free and chew through sub-caps when they decide to shoot at your fighters/T2 ogres.
Quote: 4. How do you fit your Thanatos?- faction or tec2?
T2, faction will not save you, ever.
Quote: 5. EANM's or just tec2 passive hardeners- opinions please?
Either EANMs or active Hardeners, generally EANMs.
Sorry for loads of questions but the deeper I get into cap ships the more questions I seem to uncover. Thanks for any help & a Happy New year to all of you. -------------------------- NOTR *nsfw* |
Modrick
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Posted - 2009.01.06 19:45:00 -
[20]
Would it make sense to have the two smartbomb do different type of dmg, like EMP and 2nd Thermal or something?
Any why not have two Cap armor repair in low, most build have two dont they?
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Modrick Would it make sense to have the two smartbomb do different type of dmg, like EMP and 2nd Thermal or something?
Any why not have two Cap armor repair in low, most build have two dont they?
You don't have the slots for it.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:11:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 06/01/2009 20:15:05
Originally by: Sokratesz adding to cap capacity does *not* alter recharge time.
I said equivalent. Maybe my knowledge of how the capacitors/cap recharge works is off, but I don't understand how if the cap recharge is increased by an amount, that its sustainability is affected in any way by whether it is from an increase in amount or decrease in recharge time as they both have the same recharge rate.
Quote: add ccc, 100 cap/85s. 17.6% increase in cap/s, 17.6% decrease in recharge time
No, this is not correct. 17.6% increase in recharge rate is correct, but -15% cap recharge time does not magically turn into -17.6% cap recharge time. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Raz Slicer
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Modrick Would it make sense to have the two smartbomb do different type of dmg, like EMP and 2nd Thermal or something?
Any why not have two Cap armor repair in low, most build have two dont they?
You don't have the slots for it.
I thinking get rid of one power relays for 2nd cap repper
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Raz Slicer
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Modrick Would it make sense to have the two smartbomb do different type of dmg, like EMP and 2nd Thermal or something?
Any why not have two Cap armor repair in low, most build have two dont they?
You don't have the slots for it.
I thinking get rid of one power relays for 2nd cap repper
And lose a great amount of your remote rep for a ****ty bit of local tank? You have a lot to learn.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:51:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 06/01/2009 20:53:08 Edited by: Sokratesz on 06/01/2009 20:52:30
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 06/01/2009 20:29:30
Originally by: Sokratesz adding to cap capacity does *not* alter recharge time.
I said equivalent. Maybe my knowledge of how the capacitors/cap recharge works is off, but I don't understand how if the cap recharge is increased by an amount, that its sustainability is affected in any way by whether it is from an increase in amount or decrease in recharge time as they both have the same recharge rate.
You get *both* an increase (and a better one so) in cap/s gain, and after you have depleted your cap to point x it will recharge 15% faster - smc's have neither of these advantages.
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Quote: add ccc, 100 cap/85s. 17.6% increase in cap/s, 17.6% decrease in recharge time
No, this is not correct. 17.6% increase in recharge rate is correct, but -15% cap recharge time does not magically turn into -17.6% cap recharge time.
You're right, but its still 100% better than an smc.
For prolonged engagements, SMC's are *never* better.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.06 20:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sokratesz And lose a great amount of your remote rep for a ****ty bit of local tank? You have a lot to learn.
I think it really depends on what you are doing. If you are in a fleet you are right, the extra local rep is pretty much worthless. But if you are out doing whatever with a small group, the 2nd rep could be the better choice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 06/01/2009 21:00:12
Originally by: Sokratesz And lose a great amount of your remote rep for a ****ty bit of local tank? You have a lot to learn.
I think it really depends on what you are doing. If you are in a fleet you are right, the extra local rep is pretty much worthless. But if you are out doing whatever with a small group, the 2nd rep could be the better choice.
A capital armour repairer reps 400 every second (skill at lvl 4), a remote armour repair system does 300/s, so its about 1.33:1 for ratio. If there is only thanatoses with one shield and one armour rep each, that means as soon as there is more than three carriers, the remote rep will outweigh your local rep. Using two local reps as starting point, that number is five. Sacrificing your second local rep so as to better aid your fleet will start paying off very quickly - but its something that many people do not understand for some reason.
How often do you see less than five carriers doing something which puts them in grave risk of being shot at? (not counting the idiots)
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Modrick
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 06/01/2009 21:00:12
Originally by: Sokratesz And lose a great amount of your remote rep for a ****ty bit of local tank? You have a lot to learn.
I think it really depends on what you are doing. If you are in a fleet you are right, the extra local rep is pretty much worthless. But if you are out doing whatever with a small group, the 2nd rep could be the better choice.
A capital armour repairer reps 400 every second (skill at lvl 4), a remote armour repair system does 300/s, so its about 1.33:1 for ratio. If there is only thanatoses with one shield and one armour rep each, that means as soon as there is more than three carriers, the remote rep will outweigh your local rep. Using two local reps as starting point, that number is five. Sacrificing your second local rep so as to better aid your fleet will start paying off very quickly - but its something that many people do not understand for some reason.
How often do you see less than five carriers doing something which puts them in grave risk of being shot at? (not counting the idiots)
Ok, that makes sense now. Small fleet support where you only cap ship two reps, large fleet where another ship can help repair you use one.
How about the idea of mixing damage types with the smartbombs?
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Modrick
How about the idea of mixing damage types with the smartbombs?
That's a good idea, but keep in mind EM smartbombs have the best range and damage.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:30:00 -
[30]
A bit off topic, but:
Nidhoggur, non-triage setup
2 reppers or 1 repper and another CPR? 2 smartbombs or 1 smartbomb and 1 heavy neut? ...but on a serious note, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:50:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Spaztick A bit off topic, but:
Nidhoggur, non-triage setup
2 reppers or 1 repper and another CPR? 2 smartbombs or 1 smartbomb and 1 heavy neut?
Nid has bonuses for rr so should attempt to capitalise on them..fitting same as thanatos but with 3 capital rr mods in highs, plus smartbomb and neut.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.06 21:58:00 -
[32]
Or, if you can be bothered to train shield skills and have a reliable fleet:
[Nidhoggur, godlike] True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II ECCM - Ladar II
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Amarr Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.06 22:14:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 06/01/2009 22:15:51
Originally by: Sokratesz Or, if you can be bothered to train shield skills and have a reliable fleet:
[Nidhoggur, godlike]
You'd have to really trust your fleet to run that setup, haha. At this point, though, wouldn't you almost be better off dropping one of the RRs, putting in a triage and replacing the sensor booster with another cap recharger? Or are the downsides of the triage still too great? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.01.07 04:20:00 -
[34]
I would try a shield-boosted setup with cap power relays (and it's actually not bad) but most people tend to armor tank their ships, so I'll armor tank my carrier.
I meant should I have two local reps or 1 local rep and another CPR? Yes in fleet fights it would be a no-brainer, but rarely will I be going against multiple cap ships with multiple carriers besides me to RR me.
As for the triage mode, you can't be RR'ed with it on, it's just like a dread in siege, so it's a bad idea on that setup. Triage I wouldn't mind using solo, especially if DPS is plenty and there's no need for my fighters. ...but on a serious note, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.07 05:09:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Letifer Deus At this point, though, wouldn't you almost be better off dropping one of the RRs, putting in a triage and replacing the sensor booster with another cap recharger? Or are the downsides of the triage still too great?
No, because what Sok is doing is maximizing RR - but also rely on friendly RR - Triage means you get no RR - which is the deal breaker.
Also, Niddy is an armor tanker. . .I am skeptical about the CPR setup even if it looks good on paper. It works for the Chimera, but forsaking at least a small personal tank (one capital repair) is quite useful. . . ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.07 05:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Spaztick
As for the triage mode, you can't be RR'ed with it on,
Good point, I forgot about that. Noone I know uses them so tend to forget those things. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Rajere
No Trademark Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.07 08:07:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Rajere on 07/01/2009 08:07:54
Quote: This is not a true statement. If you're planning on going into cap fleet battles, it probably is, but if you are doing small scale, ~66 mil for 3x faction EANMs is more than worth it.
Nope, you're wrong. Well, it's true 99.9% of the time. 1 carrier out of a thousand who lives because they fit a faction tank where they would have died otherwise with a T2 tank sounds about right. And don't even pull out some bs about "small scale" like that magically changes what can kill capital ships, small gang pvp is all that I do. -------------------------- NOTR *nsfw* |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.07 08:53:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 07/01/2009 08:07:54
Quote: This is not a true statement. If you're planning on going into cap fleet battles, it probably is, but if you are doing small scale, ~66 mil for 3x faction EANMs is more than worth it.
Nope, you're wrong. Well, it's true 99.9% of the time. 1 carrier out of a thousand who lives because they fit a faction tank where they would have died otherwise with a T2 tank sounds about right. And don't even pull out some bs about "small scale" like that magically changes what can kill capital ships, small gang pvp is all that I do.
It increases your chances of survival, however slightly. Whether it is worth it ISK wise would require a thorough analysis of a few thousand carriers engagements :P There is another factor however, and it's quite a powerful one (for me at least), and that is the self-confidence acquired from flying a well-fitted ship.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.01.07 09:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 07/01/2009 08:07:54
Quote: This is not a true statement. If you're planning on going into cap fleet battles, it probably is, but if you are doing small scale, ~66 mil for 3x faction EANMs is more than worth it.
Nope, you're wrong. Well, it's true 99.9% of the time. 1 carrier out of a thousand who lives because they fit a faction tank where they would have died otherwise with a T2 tank sounds about right. And don't even pull out some bs about "small scale" like that magically changes what can kill capital ships, small gang pvp is all that I do.
It increases your chances of survival, however slightly. Whether it is worth it ISK wise would require a thorough analysis of a few thousand carriers engagements :P There is another factor however, and it's quite a powerful one (for me at least), and that is the self-confidence acquired from flying a well-fitted ship.
And the winner is... EVE history
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.07 09:57:00 -
[40]
?
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.01.07 10:07:00 -
[41]
Was a compliment :P
Your post was like the final "you do it this way and not that way because.." fact needed to convince them ;) EVE history
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Rajere
No Trademark Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.07 10:07:00 -
[42]
I think you mean over-confidence? That thing that results in carrier losses? This isn't rocket science here guys, you warp your carrier to a belt or a gate or whatever then the probability of you dying has F#ckall to do with your fit and everything to do with the size and composition of the enemy gang in relation to yours. For a Thanatos, to use an example, the only time you can actually claim that the faction tank saved you is when you are able to escape from a situation where you would have died (due to killing the enemy tacklers/slowboating out of a bubble, reinforcements arriving, etc) at 12% Structure or less. Then and only then is when having that faction tank fitted enabled you to escape where you would have otherwise died. -------------------------- NOTR *nsfw* |
BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.01.07 10:12:00 -
[43]
OKAAAAY
im not getting involved then (leaves) EVE history
t2 precisions |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.07 10:14:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Rajere I think you mean over-confidence? That thing that results in carrier losses? This isn't rocket science here guys, you warp your carrier to a belt or a gate or whatever then the probability of you dying has F#ckall to do with your fit and everything to do with the size and composition of the enemy gang in relation to yours. For a Thanatos, to use an example, the only time you can actually claim that the faction tank saved you is when you are able to escape from a situation where you would have died (due to killing the enemy tacklers/slowboating out of a bubble, reinforcements arriving, etc) at 12% Structure or less. Then and only then is when having that faction tank fitted enabled you to escape where you would have otherwise died.
You are right and I wasn't trying to disprove you, fittings matter very little. But they have an added effect of aiding in morale and confidence and as any historian can tell you, those matter quite a lot :)
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Rajere
No Trademark Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.07 10:42:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sokratesz You are right and I wasn't trying to disprove you, fittings matter very little. But they have an added effect of aiding in morale and confidence and as any historian can tell you, those matter quite a lot :)
It's a double edged sword :P
Maybe it's different in large fleets, or shield tanked carriers who maybe don't have as much support in said fleets as you'd like, but for small scale stuff, wasting isk on modules which have virtually no impact whatsoever on my ship is like the opposite of boosting my morale/confidence. We kill carriers pretty regularly, most t2 fit, some faction fit, some comedy fit for travel or whatev (cargo expanders and/or pure cap recharge), even some which triaged and honestly it does not matter, at all. The moment they put themselves in a situation where they could be killed, they were killed, period. No amount of isk spent on faction/deadspace/etc modules has or would have changed the outcome.
I get all the confidence I need the moment our initial tackler says "point on carrier." -------------------------- NOTR *nsfw* |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.07 10:53:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Rajere We kill carriers pretty regularly, most t2 fit, some faction fit, some comedy fit for travel or whatev (cargo expanders and/or pure cap recharge), even some which triaged and honestly it does not matter, at all. The moment they put themselves in a situation where they could be killed, they were killed, period. No amount of isk spent on faction/deadspace/etc modules has or would have changed the outcome.
With all due respect, people who do that and get caught deserve everything they get, and you just happen to be the right person at the right time to help them part from their ISK.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Indiano Arko
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.01.07 10:57:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sokratesz
You are right and I wasn't trying to disprove you, fittings matter very little. But they have an added effect of aiding in morale and confidence and as any historian can tell you, those matter quite a lot :)
Fittings matter is situational. It's like boolean logic - they either do matter or do not matter. Good fitting is a fitting which will matter in most of situations, but there is no silver bullet... bear it mind.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2009.01.07 11:03:00 -
[48]
Edited by: P''uck on 07/01/2009 11:02:58 Alright I just checked in EFT and it seems TS CPR gets 1% more cap recharge bonus over the plain olde t2 CPR.
Anybody care to tell me since when we have it that way? Wasnt t2 CPR 25%, too, for quite some time?
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Rajere
No Trademark Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.07 11:13:00 -
[49]
forever. Also the shield boost penalty comes into play on shield tanked carriers so use best named instead of t2 if you're not using faction. -------------------------- NOTR *nsfw* |
P'uck
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Posted - 2009.01.07 11:15:00 -
[50]
Yeah, the boost penalty is a given, its just the armor tanked thing on page one that got me curious. I could have sworn RMR had 25% recharging t2 CPRs.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.07 11:54:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 07/01/2009 12:01:16
Originally by: P'uck Yeah, the boost penalty is a given, its just the armor tanked thing on page one that got me curious. I could have sworn RMR had 25% recharging t2 CPRs.
I only joined after RMR so I don't know but it has been this way for at least two years now.
While the shield boost penalty is lower for best named and faction and increases gradually for better officer CPR's, its combined effect is so small that it's barely worth taking into account.
With 4x beta relays you lose 24.7% (-10% each) With 4x T2 relays you lose 26,9% (-11% each) With 4x Faction relays you lose 24.7% (-10% each) With 4x best officer relays you lose 29,06% (-12 each)
The differences are tiny at best, thanks to the stacking penalty.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
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Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2009.01.07 14:20:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Larkonis Trassler on 07/01/2009 14:20:23 TBH if you're not going to splash out on faction for a carrier then what are you going to splash out on it for?
I don't go to town, but after spending all that cash on the skills, the hull, the capital mods and the fighters then there should be some cash left over.
30km Neut (80mil): Will deal with that lone inty who tries to lock you down if you have to jump into a system with no stations. Also that extra range is handy in engagements.
Navy EANMs (20 mil). Seriously? They are like 20 mil for an extra 12.5% over T2 a piece. I remember when T2 EANMs were that price. Yes, fitting them may not save YOU, but with your personal tank and mates remote repping you, they may enable you to last an extra 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, whatever... Meaning the enemy DPS isn't on someone else, you don't have 1 less carrier in the chain and you have 1 more carrier's worth of DPS on the enemy for that little bit more time.
Faction smarties (20-100 mil): Have more range, so when you're all huddled together in a cluster RRing each other and you've got all sorts of fighters on you everyone's smartbomb has a little more coverage and a little more chance of hitting fighters on the other side of your mate, thus removing DPS from him quicker.
Calm Your Passion |
Impolite Andevil
The Shadow Knights Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2009.01.07 16:45:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler Edited by: Larkonis Trassler on 07/01/2009 14:20:23 TBH if you're not going to splash out on faction for a carrier then what are you going to splash out on it for?
I don't go to town, but after spending all that cash on the skills, the hull, the capital mods and the fighters then there should be some cash left over.
30km Neut (80mil): Will deal with that lone inty who tries to lock you down if you have to jump into a system with no stations. Also that extra range is handy in engagements.
Navy EANMs (20 mil). Seriously? They are like 20 mil for an extra 12.5% over T2 a piece. I remember when T2 EANMs were that price. Yes, fitting them may not save YOU, but with your personal tank and mates remote repping you, they may enable you to last an extra 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, whatever... Meaning the enemy DPS isn't on someone else, you don't have 1 less carrier in the chain and you have 1 more carrier's worth of DPS on the enemy for that little bit more time.
Faction smarties (20-100 mil): Have more range, so when you're all huddled together in a cluster RRing each other and you've got all sorts of fighters on you everyone's smartbomb has a little more coverage and a little more chance of hitting fighters on the other side of your mate, thus removing DPS from him quicker.
Fully agree with the above. Yes, I think it would be silly to core x type fit a carrier, but dropping an additional hundred mil or so to give yourself a bit more survivability makes good sense to me. Especially faction EANMs - They help your local tank, and they make RRs on you more effective, and they only cost 20 mil each. If 20 mil is a sum to be highly concerned about, you shouldn't be flying a carrier.... The faction nuet is a little more iffy, but if it picks off one inty that had a point on you from over 25.2 km, it just paid for itself many times over. Faction smarties? Never hurts... Again, run lower end faction for a bit of extra range, not officer stuff.
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