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Widemouth Deepthroat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2011.12.29 22:33:00 -
[31] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Opertone wrote:employ Valve to make ENGINE that spots botting. Or contact even balance for free tips. Nitwit spotted. Herping yourDerp wrote:delay local in nullsec. make it so it takes 2-5minutes to appear in local ( depending on sec level?) this means a solo stealth bomber could potentially hit some bots. Bad ganker spotted. Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:1min would be fine, perhaps even 30s. Bad ganker spotted. botter |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
526
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 22:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Fixing high sec mission and mining bots would involve finding ways to force them out of NPC corps so they were then vulnerable to a wardec. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
371
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 23:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Opertone wrote:employ Valve to make ENGINE that spots botting. Or contact even balance for free tips. Nitwit spotted. Herping yourDerp wrote:delay local in nullsec. make it so it takes 2-5minutes to appear in local ( depending on sec level?) this means a solo stealth bomber could potentially hit some bots. Bad ganker spotted. Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:1min would be fine, perhaps even 30s. Bad ganker spotted. botter If I'm a botter, then there shouldn't be any harm in reporting me as one, should there?
Put your money where your (wide) mouth is. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
237
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Posted - 2011.12.29 23:11:00 -
[34] - Quote
Could one of you special snowflakes who think removing local would do crap tell me how would you find those botters then? Do you want to spend five minutes in every system scanning/probing, only to find out that the raven you're looking for is sitting empty in a POS? Do you think it's somehow difficult for a bot to spam d-scan consistently every second 23/7 and warp out as soon as they see an unapproved ship or scan probes? |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
371
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 23:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
This is where cloaked ships would turn overpowered. :eng101: |
Amsterdam Conversations
Cheesecake Starshine
68
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 23:18:00 -
[36] - Quote
Why is it that local needs to be removed in order to have CCP ban bots?
I can only speak for 0.0. South, southeast, north, northeast, are so bot infested it isn't even funny. There's a few hundred botters in drone space alone, Insmother is even worse.
Idgi why it is so hard to ban them. They literally only need to search their database for tengus with nullifiers but without cloaking subsystems, they'd instantly have hundreds of botters they could ban.
But no, it's terribly hard. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
372
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 23:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
Amsterdam Conversations wrote:Why is it that local needs to be removed in order to have CCP ban bots? Simple. They want ganking to be easier, so they use "bots" as an excuse, regardless of the consequences over time. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
130
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 23:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
Its not like bots couldn't be reprogramed if local didn't exist. The bots in high sec aren't using local. If they needed to use a dscan they would design that. In the mean time removing local will cause all sorts of problems for humans who play the game.
Only a small fraction of the players like no local wormholes. Removing local will kill the game faster than bots.
Removing local is not an answer to botting. It is an myopic solution for those who would like to gank pve ships and industrials.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
264
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Posted - 2011.12.29 23:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:how do you gank the crap out of tengus that make a few hundred mil a day ratting 23/7 in 0.0 which warp to safe the second any hostile enters local and are immune to bubbles? Using a blue alt is too much work.
Are we allowed to make a list of botters and post it on the forum?
If you have 2 accounts park your alt, cloak up, and go walk the dog/play your other toon all day. Do it every day until they ignore you. Then blast the crap out of them when they do. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
454
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 23:44:00 -
[40] - Quote
Removing local will do nothing but make things even better for the botters period.
It is very unlikely you are going to defeat a bot with some ingame mechanic. Not wihout driving a good percentage of players out.
10x more important is being able to identify the botters and ban them and track where and how the stuff they get is flowing through the in game economy.
When the case is made to remove 100 supercaps from the game because the majority of the mins or funds used in their construction is bot based that is the day botting will drop by a sizable degree. |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1006
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Posted - 2011.12.30 04:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Could one of you special snowflakes who think removing local would do crap tell me how would you find those botters then? Do you want to spend five minutes in every system scanning/probing, only to find out that the raven you're looking for is sitting empty in a POS? Do you think it's somehow difficult for a bot to spam d-scan consistently every second 23/7 and warp out as soon as they see an unapproved ship or scan probes?
Actually if a script or bot program is running a D-scan loop process, that can still be defeated by having good skills at probing. Basically, in the case for bots, it's generally assumed as to where they "might" be - in the belt's in most cases - and a large ship does not really require that your probes are down to 1AU range for them to get a "warpable hit".
A good ship, and not necessarily a covops, with grav cap rigs, Sisters gear, and a pilot with implants and "all 5s" in Astro can get a warpable hit in 6 seconds or less without having to pull in a tight probe pattern that can show up on D-Scan.
Furthermore, in the case of belts, there is not even a need to get a warpable location on the target, but use a wide probing configuration to get a general idea of which belt, and then go in for the kill.
BTW: I am not a ganker. I have only a few PVP kills and loses in nearly 6 years. But I know of a lot of tricks in probing because the really good hunters are kind enough to write about how they do it.
In fact I would say that the Crimes and Punishment forum makes me a better player, without even having trained smack talk and asshattery to level 5. |
ASadOldGit
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 05:58:00 -
[42] - Quote
Since Tengus and Hulks all require significant training, surely there's a pattern there at the account level that CCP can look at?
The botter would probably have a set plan for efficiency's-sake - a bunch of accounts created at the same time, with the same implants applied, all doing the exact same skill plan, in the same area, but without any sec-status changes or NPC kills (assuming they're not used much before getting into a Tengu). Even the same or similar IP address and credit card (unless someone in-game supplies them with PLEX) are clues.
Those things don't make them bots, but it's certainly suspicious enough behaviour to justify having a look.
My container is NOT imploding! It's just a bit upset that it only sees cheap crap. |
Widemouth Deepthroat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 06:10:00 -
[43] - Quote
Problem with that is focused tengu pilot is one of best character for isk per skillpoint if you make character for sale (I got 6 training now from the power of 2 deal).
Much easier for them to just look at who is recieving bounty payments over inhuman amounts of time. I bet they already looked at it but just aren't doing anything about it. |
DelBoy Trades
Enslave. GIANTSBANE.
95
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 09:03:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm no programmer, but is there not a way that the server could detect repetitive, script like actions? I've watched these russian ratters in 0.0, they initiate warp to their POS/planet/safe as soon as someone enters local, presumably their farming actions are similarly obviously automated. I would also propose a thread in which we share tricks for catching them, I've heard of anchoring a bubble in a belt, aggressing yourself then logging off in said bubble so you don't warp off, on log in you're instantly in a belt ready to point, either play the odds or stick someone in every belt. Damn nature, you scary! |
Xavier Quo
InterSun Freelance Moon Warriors
18
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Posted - 2011.12.30 12:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
everyone in the game should be periodically pinged with the conversation "are you a bot?" failure to respond within 30m flags you as a valid target to anyone.
seriously though this has to be sorted out, it is such a cancer on the game. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
376
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 12:43:00 -
[46] - Quote
Xavier Quo wrote:everyone in the game should be periodically pinged with the conversation "are you a bot?" failure to respond within 30m flags you as a valid target to anyone. Every time someone comes up with this idea, even in jest, god kills a kitten.
Please, think of the kittens. |
March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
63
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 13:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:Quote: You know how fast a properly fitted tackler can get into a system and have you pointed? Seconds.
Some times you really get the impression the bots are smarter and more able to survive in EVE than some of the players. not smarter but more "active". I mean they don't miss local update because of wife, children, new joke in corp chat or something.....
some times i miss neutrals appearing for like 1+ minutes. It happens when i'm docked and doing PI for example. |
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 13:20:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP have only ever taken moderate action against botters in the past for 2 reasons. Those same 2 reasons are why there's no chance at all of them going on some insane bottkilling rampage again either now, or any time SoonGäó
- MONEY. It doesn't matter whether these bots pay with cc or (more likely) PLEX, it's a large chunk of cash coming in, for those of you that didn't notice, CCP is kinda broke atm so I can't see finance being too happy with a pile of accounts nuked, no matter how 'right' it is to do so.
- RISK. Even if 99% of accounts banned for botting are bots, getting it wrong for 1% has the potential to be a severe PR mess, especially if the story gets run my multiple gaming sites, they really do have to be damn sure that someone is a bot and not just a focused/efficent player. The potential consequences of getting it wrong in terms of losing more genuine subs (not sush a problem), and discouraging potential new players that're reading about how people are getting wrongly banned for botting (much more of a problem) are just too high to afford many screwups.
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Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
308
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 13:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:...on the war against the non-humans?
I see more bots now than ever before and there is no sign of it slowing down. They destroy the mineral market, PLEX market due to using it to play for free, I see massive armies of Tengus farming high sec missions, they destroy the belt ratting out in null space, is there no place left that is not tainted by these things? When are the actual players who are at the keyboard going to see some real effort from CCP to be rid of these things?
A dev blog is great, but when it is not backed up with real action; what is the point?
You think it's bad now? Just think how bad it would be if CCP wasn't doing anything....hahahaha. Seriously, CCP could only help itself if it published non-technical data about their anti-botting efforts in the game. Why they don't beats me.....no not really. It's obvious why they don't.
You ask "if there's no place left that is not tainted by these things". The answer is yes, w-space. While bots could technically function there, they can't do it reliably without local or hacked clients. The single most effective mechanic is "no local". All CCP would have to do is remove local from null and those bots cease to function. Yet, CCP is supposedly developing "intel tools" to counter removing local that they've professed to desire. I won't be surprised when those "intel tools" are found to be overly complex and tediously repetitive making them perfectly suited to being automated. I'm thinking of some sort of a clickfest like PI. ;) We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Ione Skye
hirr Against ALL Authorities
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 14:46:00 -
[50] - Quote
I am on your side Malona Sky on this one.
There is a new pest in Eve: it is botting Tengus in Anomalies
Belt botting is pretty dead. Why? Because it is not at all as profitable as Tengus in Anos. A belt ratting raven creates in Dotlan maybe 100-200 wrecks/h and you can only use 1 or 2 per system. for one Raven/Drake it is appr. 1000 in 23/7. Often it gets disturbed and then it is way less. A tengu group in Anos creates up to 10000+ NPC kills in 1 system. Today there are often groups of 4-5 tengus in deadends with high enough sec status.
The sad thing is:
this are the same guys, who did it big years ago already. There seem to be some organized crime style cheating going on. Why should a mafia group not target gold shop-like a MMORPG like Eve for RMT business?
Which leads us to the possible reasons, why CCP fail so horribly:
1) They completely sleep and know nothing about what is going on out there. The way, they failed with their event fleet would indicat this, too. Naive geeks.
2) They know, what is going on and profit from it, too
3) CCP are blackmailed by the RMT guys. We speak about a bigger picture here: These guys can hire PL and other mercs, form alliances, are known to bribe alliances leaders or important FCs of hostile alliances with real $ and make them remove either legit player groups, who just want to play the game for fun (what it is supposed to be) or fight vs other RMT empires. All big alliance blocks have today connections to RMT business groups. |
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
2402
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 15:08:00 -
[51] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Actually if a script or bot program is running a D-scan loop process, that can still be defeated by having good skills at probing. Basically, in the case for bots, it's generally assumed as to where they "might" be - in the belt's in most cases - and a large ship does not really require that your probes are down to 1AU range for them to get a "warpable hit".
This sounds like something a bot programmer or vendor would say, tbh
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
Valei Khurelem
House Khurelem
62
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 15:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
Quote:If "chokepoints" is all that's stopping you from "invading 0.0", then give up now. You're way too pathetic at warfare to get anywhere.
If you know of a way one player can beat a 30+ fleet of tech 2 ships and battleships, feel free to tell me smart ass. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
387
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 15:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
If you think "one player" is supposed to be able to wrest control of one or more systems from 30+ people, then join the supercap club, or get a better appreciation for the multiplayer aspect of this game.
Or get friends. This is probably a better strategy in the long run. |
Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 15:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
I don't expect anything of consequence will ever be done to deal with the botters. One you accept that, then you can just play... |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
139
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 16:09:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ok but all of this will then apply to humans who are ratting in null or low sec as well right? Not to mention all the problems no local will cause for solo or small gang pvpers trying to avoid blobs.
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:Could one of you special snowflakes who think removing local would do crap tell me how would you find those botters then? Do you want to spend five minutes in every system scanning/probing, only to find out that the raven you're looking for is sitting empty in a POS? Do you think it's somehow difficult for a bot to spam d-scan consistently every second 23/7 and warp out as soon as they see an unapproved ship or scan probes? Actually if a script or bot program is running a D-scan loop process, that can still be defeated by having good skills at probing. Basically, in the case for bots, it's generally assumed as to where they "might" be - in the belt's in most cases - and a large ship does not really require that your probes are down to 1AU range for them to get a "warpable hit". A good ship, and not necessarily a covops, with grav cap rigs, Sisters gear, and a pilot with implants and "all 5s" in Astro can get a warpable hit in 6 seconds or less without having to pull in a tight probe pattern that can show up on D-Scan. Furthermore, in the case of belts, there is not even a need to get a warpable location on the target, but use a wide probing configuration to get a general idea of which belt, and then go in for the kill. BTW: I am not a ganker. I have only a few PVP kills and loses in nearly 6 years. But I know of a lot of tricks in probing because the really good hunters are kind enough to write about how they do it. In fact I would say that the Crimes and Punishment forum makes me a better player, without even having trained smack talk and asshattery to level 5. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Ione Skye
hirr Against ALL Authorities
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 17:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
Probing them only works, if the gate is not bubbled with a gazillon of large bubbles and they start botting again after you left with your probes in th system and if they are close to the gate. A lot of "ifs". Also 4 tengus nuke a small tackle in 1 volley, so the DPS ship need to be there very quick, too. Otherwise they warp out very fast. There is a reason, why there are so many of them and so few of them get killed.
The best method to catch one, is to AWOX. Blue tackle alt. But only a handful of ppl care to do this from time to time, so it is only a drop on a hot stone. Also if there would be more awoxers, they certainly adapt their standing lists.
Btw. I have a list with potential bots. It shows something really disturbing:
All the guys, who I suspect to be bots, because other evidence let me say, this might be bots, are very often online and green. There will always be a strong correlation between online time and botting. Somebody, who runs a bot, only runs it, because he automated some repeating, brainmelting, boring actions. The longer he runs his cheat program, the more he profits. So these are online very often and out of that list I have a high number of "players" green and only a few red all the time.
I have another list. Famous PVPers, I fought against, and which I watch. This list is the total opposite. It is more than 90 % red, not online, and only a few come sometimes online to play the game. I see it also in my own corp. The participation for pvp is shockingly low, out of the whole group. It appears to me, most players, who play this game longer and are honest, have already given up and no more play Eveonline. Sometimes some of them have nothing to do and then they play the game again for a few days or weeks a couple of hours more a week. But most players, who play this for years, lost the passion, which they once had for the game.
And I think, I know the reason: If you do not cheat, you will be always just a victim in the great end game to the professinals, who make RL money with it. They either try to bribe good PVPers or sell them ISK. They do not like PVPers, who not work for them as mercs, not pay rent or do not buy ISK from them. These kind of players, they try to grief out of the game and they did this very successful with certainly thousands of players. |
Killmeded
KMD Enterprises
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 18:40:00 -
[57] - Quote
CCP could set it so that toons that are acting "botish" or people that were reported would recieve a popup with a distorted text test like u have to for emails n stuff. This would easily foil most bots. Failure to respond would result in banning. This could expand the use of the report botting feature.
It could limit the test to a timer but also to if the toon is still taking actions. This would help so that afk people were not being banned for not responding.
A delay function for people in combat could also be implemented. Guristas should have-á"BIGGER" Skull Bunnies-áin the default paintjob.-áGuristas and all other pirates should get custom ships like angels (or at LEAST fix the-áHIDEOUS Moa/Gila-áhull). |
IGNATIUS HOOD
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
235
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Posted - 2011.12.30 18:45:00 -
[58] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Remove local or delay it.
-by the time the bot operator pushes his fat girlfriend off his lap the wolfpack is already into the next system.
Herzog, Is the bot operator also a 'neckbeard' by chance? Does he like ponies? 'perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim'
Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 18:49:00 -
[59] - Quote
Killmeded wrote:CCP could set it so that toons that are acting "botish" or people that were reported would recieve a popup with a distorted text test like u have to for emails n stuff. This would easily foil most bots. Failure to respond would result in banning. This could expand the use of the report botting feature.
It could limit the test to a timer but also to if the toon is still taking actions. This would help so that afk people were not being banned for not responding.
A delay function for people in combat could also be implemented. Captcha, and no it won't work.
Captcha breaking bots are everywhere, most are free.
Not to mention that many players (such as myself) cannot read those blasted things. Especially when they are multicolored. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
392
|
Posted - 2011.12.30 20:11:00 -
[60] - Quote
Killmeded wrote:CCP could set it so that toons that are acting "botish" or people that were reported would recieve a popup with a distorted text test like u have to for emails n stuff. This would easily foil most bots. Failure to respond would result in banning. This could expand the use of the report botting feature.
It could limit the test to a timer but also to if the toon is still taking actions. This would help so that afk people were not being banned for not responding.
A delay function for people in combat could also be implemented. Every time someone makes this suggestion, god kills a kitten.
Please, think of the kittens. |
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