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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.24 16:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Stamm on 24/02/2007 16:08:33 Content will follow. I prematurely ejacu I mean hit the return key.
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Tista
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Posted - 2007.02.24 16:16:00 -
[2]
Stamm!
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.24 16:34:00 -
[3]
Just sell amarr char. Problem solved.
You might even get enough ISK to buy other type of guns -------- ..... |
ITTigerClawIK
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.24 16:39:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Stamm Edited by: Stamm on 24/02/2007 16:17:02 Ok, we have Medium Beam and Medium pulse. We have Heavy Beam and Heavy Pulse.
And we have Tachyon Beam, but no Tachyon Pulse.
Let's break out the Tachyon Pulses. But let's ensure they're not very good general purpose lasers and useful only for unusual fits - just like Tachyon Beams.
In order to do that they have to be tough to fit on an Abaddon (just like Tachyon beams are).
An Abaddon has 26250 powergrid (when you're inside it). With Tachyon beams 2 RCU2s are needed. And leave you with about 4.5K PG left.
Tachyon pulses would have to use a fitting mod - or they're just an upgrade to Amarr.
So with 1 RCU2 on, 30187.5 PG is what you have to work with. 4000 Powergrid required on the Tachyon Pulse lasers is appropriate. For CPU tachyon beams use about 1/7 extra compared to megabeam. So let's crank the CPU requirment to 43.
As far as ROF, damage modifier, cap use, tracking, and range, have them be the same to mega pulse as tachyons are to mega beams.
Amarr get another option - slightly oversized guns that nerf a normal fitting, if they want to go for a bit more DPS at the expense of tracking, cap and tank.
Can we please have soemthing that does not make fititng and upkeep harder than it already is please
Sig (partially) nerfed. Only one image allowed, and that one image has to be under 400x120, and below 24,000 bytes. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.24 16:39:00 -
[5]
I like lasers. If I'm going to play internet spaceships it's going to be with pew pew lasers. And if I'm going to use lasers they have to be the biggest, and since I don't want to train for a dreadnought, it has to be Tachyon Pulse Laser II!
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.24 16:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ITTigerClawIK
Can we please have soemthing that does not make fititng and upkeep harder than it already is please
Amarr fitting constraints are part of the game. If you don't want to deal with that then use dual heavy beams/pulse, focused medium beam/pulse and dual light beam/pulse.
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Celtic Zero
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Posted - 2007.02.24 17:52:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Celtic Zero on 24/02/2007 17:49:49
Originally by: Stamm
Originally by: ITTigerClawIK
Can we please have soemthing that does not make fititng and upkeep harder than it already is please
Amarr fitting constraints are part of the game. If you don't want to deal with that then use dual heavy beams/pulse, focused medium beam/pulse and dual light beam/pulse.
Stamm you are the type of Amarr pilot I like to see. Because if Amarr could fit a uber dual rep tank and lots of plates with the biggest guns they have, like everyone wants, they would be a little bit overpowered.
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Gaius Kador
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.24 18:15:00 -
[8]
Nice idea. ----------------------------------------------
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Celedris
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.24 18:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Stamm
And we have Tachyon Beam, but no Tachyon Pulse.
You are basing game balance on semantics?
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.24 18:51:00 -
[10]
I like the idea,we would also have to make sure they use an ungodly amount of cap/sec. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. |
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2007.02.24 18:57:00 -
[11]
I like the idea (not playing amarr though) but I would be hesitant for a few reasons...
Tachyons is more like a tier 4 large laser when every other race only have 3 tiers... A close range Tachyon could be very devastating.
Tuxford (I think it was him, on behalf of the dev team) have stated they are trying to solve a few issues with lasers and if the Tach Pulse is implemented Amarr will get a double boost... It might not be overpowered but there will be a large chance it might.
Besides from the balance Issues I like the Idea...
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Siakel
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Celtic Zero Edited by: Celtic Zero on 24/02/2007 17:49:49
Originally by: Stamm
Originally by: ITTigerClawIK
Can we please have soemthing that does not make fititng and upkeep harder than it already is please
Amarr fitting constraints are part of the game. If you don't want to deal with that then use dual heavy beams/pulse, focused medium beam/pulse and dual light beam/pulse.
Stamm you are the type of Amarr pilot I like to see. Because if Amarr could fit a uber dual rep tank and lots of plates with the biggest guns they have, like everyone wants, they would be a little bit overpowered.
No, not quite. I think you'll find that most Amarr pilots want to be able to fit a decent setup while using Lasers, instead of almost always having the least grid left over to fit the rest of our slots, despite the Amarr 'grid advantage'.
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Mr Peanut
STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:26:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Mr Peanut on 24/02/2007 19:24:05 I like. No harm in implementing them, even if they aren't very useful for tracking reasons.
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2007.02.24 21:49:00 -
[14]
ok hell no way on earth make them that hard to fit i don't mind tight fitting but who the hell wants a dual rep tank with lots of plates and uber resists with the biggest guns? i mean come on link me to that person so the whole forum can flame them
secondly the fitting requirements are screwed sure give us big fitting costs and big cap usage but give us a big damage boost too (we are ment to have some big damage boost compared to everyone else right? cause i'm yet to see it)
i just want to be able to fit the biggest baddest pulse lasers to my geddon and not have to skrimp on the mid and low slot fittings and not have that must have nos because it won't fit or the ab or the tracking enahncer so i can acctually hit something or the cap booster or the warp scram (wouldn't it be nice to be able to have that many mid slots)
no more screwed fittings without some monster damage and the ability to keep the range for the monster damage please thank you good night sweet dreams
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Takeshi Miyazaki
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Posted - 2007.02.24 22:19:00 -
[15]
Aint pulse lasers easier to fit because they reuce range a lot? lookign at market info the beam lasers are really long reaching but requir lots of power, pulses take less power but only have a max of about 50km with radio's
if u could get tachyon pulses and they hit hard but only had a range of about 40km with radios it'd probs be really cool
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madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.02.24 23:25:00 -
[16]
plz. dont use comparisons with radio crystals. I mean wtf is the point. Use some longrange T2 crystals instead. _________________________________________________ Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Royaldo
Old Farts
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Posted - 2007.02.24 23:38:00 -
[17]
love the idea.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.02.25 00:10:00 -
[18]
Generally, I find that lasers are borked, fitting-wise. Either they are hard to fit, but with good damage, or are very easy to fit, but do pansy damage. Their is no smooth scalling down of fitting/damage, unlike with the other weapon systems. So yeah, Tachyon pulses would rock, but please ensure that all the lasers are looked at in regards to the points I talked about.
Anyways, IBTL
Originally by: Glenntwo You should be an anti pirate because you enjoy giving a player who is looking for an unfair fight an extremely unfair fight
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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.25 00:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Generally, I find that lasers are borked, fitting-wise. Either they are hard to fit, but with good damage, or are very easy to fit, but do pansy damage. Their is no smooth scalling down of fitting/damage, unlike with the other weapon systems. So yeah, Tachyon pulses would rock, but please ensure that all the lasers are looked at in regards to the points I talked about.
Right, there's some fitting issues with beams in general. However, as much as Tachyon beams are nasty for fitting and a real hassle because you lose a couple of low slots, I do not believe that it should be possible to fit them without fitting mods, they're sort of special weapons.
As I said above Tachyons for Amarr are oversized pre-nerfed weapons with a specialist only role.
For the beams they are of very limited use at short range. For sniping, they're a fair bit better than megabeams, but they do mean no tank.
So the role of Tachyon pulses should be for short range pwnage - of battleships since they'll struggle to track as well as normal pulses, and if you fit them, you're going to have to sacrifice at least 1 lowslot to get the extra damage they do.
Do bear in mind that laser fittings are finally going to get looked at. There's several Amarr ships that don't have the PG/CPU mix that Amarr ships should have (Some cruisers, Coercer), and a few that need a little touch in fittings (Geddon CPU). And beam lasers in general are a pretty choice fitting wise. Megabeam lasers are probably the only large charge lasers that could really be justified getting a PG reduction.
Anyway, this idea is to give a little depth to Amarr, give us a choice if we want to do just a little more damage, and completely nerf our ship. And, the most important thing, make me feel less of a sissy if my lasers don't say Tachyon on them.
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Neuromandis
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.25 03:41:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 25/02/2007 03:38:29 Short range guns are easier to fit and have more damage than large guns Large guns suffer from fitting
Railguns/Blasters and Artilleries/Autocannons each have 3 tiers of guns (i.e. electron, ion, neutron or 3 sizes of rails et.c.). Missiles and Lasers have 2 tiers (for example, dual medium laser and heavy laser), and the last of these two tiers is supposed to be balanced with the other types. For example, a Heavy Beam laser should be the counterpart of a 250mm railgun. The Tachyons are a long range gun that goes above and beyond that: MegaBeams are what is supposed to be balanced with 425mm railguns and 1400mm artilleries. The Tachyon is simply oversized.
They can be used to fill specific setups (Pure, long range, OMGWTFBBQ damage at a pretty much tankless setup or whatever). The reason the game can get away with this is that the fitting constraints force you to pretty much gimp your setup to use them, or make other compromises in order to benefit from that oversized damage.
IF you made an oversized close range weapon, game balance would be at peril, because the lesser short-range requirements mean that it could go into a standard fitting, essentially making it unbalanced against the rest of close-range guns in the game.
Amarr need a general fixing, granted, and devblogs say they're getting it. If it works, what I describe as unbalanced will immediately become overpowered (i.e. if they work fine with their standard megapulses and megabeams, tachyon pulses would essentially mean pwnmobile in terms of damage compared to range)
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Matrix Aran
Black Lance Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.25 03:45:00 -
[21]
Why, oh, WHY? Why do people keep necroing the tachyon pulse thread? Bad idea two years ago, bad idea now. ----
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Xendie
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.25 03:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 25/02/2007 03:38:29 Short range guns are easier to fit and have more damage than large guns Large guns suffer from fitting
Railguns/Blasters and Artilleries/Autocannons each have 3 tiers of guns (i.e. electron, ion, neutron or 3 sizes of rails et.c.). Missiles and Lasers have 2 tiers (for example, dual medium laser and heavy laser), and the last of these two tiers is supposed to be balanced with the other types. For example, a Heavy Beam laser should be the counterpart of a 250mm railgun. The Tachyons are a long range gun that goes above and beyond that: MegaBeams are what is supposed to be balanced with 425mm railguns and 1400mm artilleries. The Tachyon is simply oversized.
They can be used to fill specific setups (Pure, long range, OMGWTFBBQ damage at a pretty much tankless setup or whatever). The reason the game can get away with this is that the fitting constraints force you to pretty much gimp your setup to use them, or make other compromises in order to benefit from that oversized damage.
IF you made an oversized close range weapon, game balance would be at peril, because the lesser short-range requirements mean that it could go into a standard fitting, essentially making it unbalanced against the rest of close-range guns in the game.
Amarr need a general fixing, granted, and devblogs say they're getting it. If it works, what I describe as unbalanced will immediately become overpowered (i.e. if they work fine with their standard megapulses and megabeams, tachyon pulses would essentially mean pwnmobile in terms of damage compared to range)
dual 250mm rails ---------350mm rail -------------425mm rails mega beam ----------------what?-------------------tachyon beams
electron blaster---------ion blaster -------------neutron blaster dual heavy pulse ---------megapulse --------------what?
Originally by: "darth solo" bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.
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Neuromandis
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.25 15:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Xendie
dual 250mm rails ---------350mm rail -------------425mm rails mega beam ----------------what?-------------------tachyon beams
electron blaster---------ion blaster -------------neutron blaster dual heavy pulse ---------megapulse --------------what?
Well, no, and that was exactly my point dual 250mm rails ---------350mm rail -------------425mm rails Dual Heavy----------------NOTHING-----------------Mega Beam------------TACHYON
electron blaster cannon---ion blaster cannon------neutron blaster cannon dual heavy pulse ---------NOTHING-----------------Mega Pulse
Mega Pulse is NOT the equivalent of and Ion Blaster, it is the equivalent of a Neutron blaster in power/range. It is not a "tier 2" weapon
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.25 16:57:00 -
[24]
I like it. Amarr are supposed to be the turret specialists, it would be nice to see some tachypulse since it would give Amarr a toughfitting advantage.
I would like to adjust the fitting though. Abaddon should be able to fit a full rack and have enough to fit 1 large rep and thats it.
Lower tiers would need an RCU II to fit anything beyond the lasers themselves. That sounds more fair.
Tachypulses don't need a lot more range than megapulse, but need significantly more damage.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Godar Marak
Amarr Return Of Red Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.25 19:28:00 -
[25]
I support the idea of having more guns, I like guns.
But I would want a laser that I can use at people point blank so I no longer have to sit and die while being autocannoned or blastered to death by sneaky Gallenteans and dirty Minnies.
-------------------- '\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/' Cant we all just get along?
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.25 20:22:00 -
[26]
Edited by: LUKEC on 25/02/2007 20:19:04 For all gun comparisons: tachyon is equivalent of 425 and 1400mm arty. Yes it does more dps on paper with 3 dmg mods fitted. But there aren't any good fleet setups with 3 heat sinks. You don't want to test tachyons on abaddon without injector, really.
For mega pulses, they do actually less dps than ions. They have range, but they don't really fit on anything. -------- ..... |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.25 20:47:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 25/02/2007 20:19:04 For all gun comparisons: tachyon is equivalent of 425 and 1400mm arty. Yes it does more dps on paper with 3 dmg mods fitted. But there aren't any good fleet setups with 3 heat sinks. You don't want to test tachyons on abaddon without injector, really.
For mega pulses, they do actually less dps than ions. They have range, but they don't really fit on anything.
Megapulses actualy do less DPS than electron blasters. They shouldnt have a problem fitting on most amarran ships with decent skills but certianly arent going to be fitting any nasty tanks on anything but an abaddon.
What amarr need is not a "ZOMG BIG" gun over megapulses, but they need their second teir brought in line with the second teir of all other races and then another weapon below that.
The easiest example is just to look at the medium guns. The jump, in percentage, for DPS is larger between heavy pulses and focused medium pules than it is between neutrons and electrons, and 425s and dual 180s. But in each case, the powergrid saved is less.
As well, since Amarr depend on range, the range penalty is more severe. Range is better measured in absolutes and travel time than in precentiles.
So the range difference between 180,220, and 425 [12.5% and 11%] is less than the difference between Electron, ion, and neutron [25 and 20%] and is less than the difference between FMP and HP [9%] despite the difference in percentage only being 9%. Once you load scorch and hit max skills the absolute difference becomes nearly 2km[only 1km difference for the blasters]. Which, when you reply on optimal so much to do damage simply compounds the problem of having the largest DPS drop between guns. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Royaldo
Old Farts
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Posted - 2007.02.25 21:02:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Royaldo on 25/02/2007 21:00:17 this is a good idea stamm.
make them hard to fit, poor tracking(for a pulse gun) but make the dmg worth it.
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Neuromandis
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.25 23:28:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 25/02/2007 23:26:32 Of course almost every pulse weapon will do a lot less dps than any blaster. Compare range with high-damage ammo: (antimatter/multifreqs)
Neutron Blaster Cannon: Optimal 3km + falloff 10km Mega Pulse--------------Optimal 10km + falloff 8km
The difference is huge, unless the laserboat has no way whatsoever to dictate range. At that 10km optimal you can bet that the pulses will severely outdamage any blaster.
The argument that they have less dps than electrons doesn't really stand, because they are in a completely different range category. They are a different kind of weapon. The electron needs to be point-blank to do any kind of damage, the pulse is a short-to-low medium range weapon and has by definition worse damage. I am not running a comparison stating which is better or worse, I am just stating that Blaster DPS (even electron) at Pulse range would be completely unbalanced. Overpowered guns is NOT the love that the amarrians need is. Better bonuses is.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.25 23:48:00 -
[30]
A comparison at the highest level: Short range Guns and 3 Officer Dmg mods
Gankatar: 1347 DPS Gankabus: 1886 DPS Gankiathon: 1451 DPS Gankagnarok: 532 DPS
Course that looks way off...the Ragnarok can fit 2 Citadels as well, but I didn't factor that in. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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