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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.26 02:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Neuromandis snip
Pulse lasers are not a different category of weapon compared to blasters. This occurs only on the battleship level when the laser user has tech 2 guns with scorch.
On all other levels the range differences compared to speed differences are not enough to consider them different "range categories" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.26 06:03:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Neuromandis
Originally by: Xendie
dual 250mm rails ---------350mm rail -------------425mm rails mega beam ----------------what?-------------------tachyon beams
electron blaster---------ion blaster -------------neutron blaster dual heavy pulse ---------megapulse --------------what?
Well, no, and that was exactly my point dual 250mm rails ---------350mm rail -------------425mm rails Dual Heavy----------------NOTHING-----------------Mega Beam------------TACHYON
electron blaster cannon---ion blaster cannon------neutron blaster cannon dual heavy pulse ---------NOTHING-----------------Mega Pulse
Mega Pulse is NOT the equivalent of and Ion Blaster, it is the equivalent of a Neutron blaster in power/range. It is not a "tier 2" weapon
Yes it it....notice it goes...
dual-mega-tachyon in longrange. dual-tachyon-mega in shortrange?no. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. |
Neuromandis
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.26 11:55:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 26/02/2007 12:03:08
Originally by: Goumindong
Pulse lasers are not a different category of weapon compared to blasters. This occurs only on the battleship level when the laser user has tech 2 guns with scorch.
On all other levels the range differences compared to speed differences are not enough to consider them different "range categories"
Ok, let me rephrase. When I say different category I mean that the DPS difference is supposed to be offset by optimal (and generally range) difference, that you cannot compare point-for-point the dps because you have to factor in range as well (and I cannot be arsed to make a dps/range diagram to find where the pulses outdps the blasters, but this *usually* occurs one or two km below the pulses optimal and up to its optimal). The pulses trade optimal for damage, hence the lower dps than blasters.
I completely aggree with what you say about the lower classes of weapons though. But I am specifically speaking about battleship-class weapons - we are talking about the possibility of Tachyon Pulses, so I am not comparing all lasers in general. Small lasers do not have an "oversized" class of the tachyon's magnitude anyway.
Originally by: goodby4u
Well, no, and that was exactly my point dual 250mm rails ---------350mm rail -------------425mm rails Dual Heavy----------------NOTHING-----------------Mega Beam------------TACHYON
electron blaster cannon---ion blaster cannon------neutron blaster cannon dual heavy pulse ---------NOTHING-----------------Mega Pulse
Mega Pulse is NOT the equivalent of and Ion Blaster, it is the equivalent of a Neutron blaster in power/range. It is not a "tier 2" weapon
Yes it it....notice it goes...
dual-mega-tachyon in longrange. dual-tachyon-mega in shortrange?no.
Now that was a little cryptic, so I may have misunderstood. If you feel I have not understood your post correctly please rephrase.
First, to explain myself a little better: A mega beam is supposed to be the (rough) equivlent of a 425mm railgun or a 1400mm artillery, getting similar results. The damage and range combination is supposed to bring these 3 in line. A tachyon is supposed (by dev's definition APART from my own understanding), to be an OVERSIZED weapon, going above and beyond any other weapon in the game in damage and range, and hence fitting. That IS the case as well, if you compare optimal and damage, you will note it goes above and beyond rails and arties. That is what my diagram means.
Second, to try and answer to the above comment: I never suggested bringing tachyon pulses between dualheavies and megapulses. I said that the range and damage of a megapulse brings it in line with a neutron blaster or a 3rd tier autocannon. Less damage than these (or even their smallers varieties, as long as it outranges these) but longer range, especially optimal which has the ability to generally increase dps. It is NOT the equivalent of ions in that a graph comparing Megapulse, Arty and Neutron would already have a significant portion of range that gets the megapulse above these two in dps, while still being in the "short range" category (let's arbitrarily say that """long""" short range is disruptor range , """medium""" short range is webber range, and point blank is 0-3km, ok?) So a neutron blaster outdamages in point blank, an autocannon outdamages is ""medium"" shoret and megapulse in ""long"" short. An electron/ion blaster will still outdamage a pulse by a small margin but for too little and for too small a "window" in the range chart.
That said, if you add the tachyon pulse bigger and better than the megapulse, it would be brought above and beyond neutron blasters and best autocannons, which would make it overpowered because fitting of short range weapons is by definition easier than long range weapons, so you would have a ship able to outrange and outdamage every other short range ship while its setup would be pretty much standard in other respects.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.01 17:09:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Nyxus on 01/03/2007 17:12:57 Let me see if I can shed some more light on this concept. Wondergraph powers, Activate! Form of; Tachyon pulse!
Here is a graph of Stamm's Tachyon Pulse where the Tachypulses are the same percentage difference from Megapulse as Tachyon Beams are from Megabeams (sounds complex, but the here are the stats so you can see them clearly).
It's....interesting. Because in general the percents are acting on smaller numbers, the increases/decreases are proportionately smaller. Based on these numbers, I would suggest that with an implementation like this the fitting reqs be toned down a bit for the short range tachypulses. Not much, but some.
The proof is in the pudding.
Let's look at what our proposed Tachypulse would do in actual battles. For comparison I have shown the obvious Amarrian battleships the Armageddon, the Apoc, and the Abaddon. Since the Typhoon is the "DPS" ship of the Matari fleet I have used it in a realistic DPS setup that will fit. Smallest large guns, siege T2 (better dps) and Ogre IIs. Gallente were more difficult as they have 2 ships that can do close range turrets well with multiple effective close range turrets. For simplicities sake I choce the Megathron with a Neutron and an Ion setup. All ships are based on no damage mods so we can clearly see the baseline in this post.
If you want to see a different ship, or different mods, or differing numbers of damage mods please succinctly post why these changes would be helpful and what alterations you would like to see. I will post your requests as I am able.
Now here are the T2 guns with T2 ammo.
Tachyon Pulse with T1 ammo comparison
That looks good for the Apoc and Abaddon. The Geddon is strong there, but part of the damage is coming from the dronebay and fitting reqs would make the tank on the geddon extremely minimal. This would help balance the dps.
Tachyon Pulse and friends with short range, high damage ammo.
Here we can see that the Amarr BS have midrange DPS dominance. Thier specialty. Is it too much? Again, you have to look at the HUGE fitting requirements. Those requirements must be justified in the DPS advantage given.
Tachyon Pulse & friends with long range T2 ammo
Much closer dps here with Amarr having dps advantage at longer range while Gallente dominate the sub 20km range. If CCP would produce BS sized scrams that could be used out to 30 or 40km (nonfaction please, Tobias are great but pricey) that range would be more useful than it is today.
So there you have it. I will be interested in reading your responses and will try to post your requested updates as quick as I can.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.03.01 17:21:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Thor Xian A comparison at the highest level: Short range Guns and 3 Officer Dmg mods
Gankatar: 1347 DPS Gankabus: 1886 DPS Gankiathon: 1451 DPS Gankagnarok: 532 DPS
Course that looks way off...the Ragnarok can fit 2 Citadels as well, but I didn't factor that in.
Where's the seigemode Gank Moros? Its drones alone are utterly insane DPS.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Neuromandis
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.03.01 19:35:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 01/03/2007 19:34:09 I think these nice graphs are the exact thing I was trying to explain in all my previous posts - they simply overpower everything in a ship with suitable boni (check armageddon) in practically all ranges, especially with the "best" gank setup, T2 short range. Range with T2 long is insulting. Only with T1 ammo has the comparison any semblance of balance... In short they would outrange AND outdamage everything. I thought it would just be not-very balanced, but it seems I underestimated the problem. If that weapon was implemented as described, it would be a slap at the face of balance.
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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.01 19:57:00 -
[37]
Nyxus I wouldn't mind seeing the calcs for them without drones compared to blasterthrons. And I'd like to see it compared to a megapulse, but with megapulse having an extra heat sink on - 3 heat sinks on the tachypulse and 4 on the megapulse.
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.01 23:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 01/03/2007 19:34:09 I think these nice graphs are the exact thing I was trying to explain in all my previous posts - they simply overpower everything in a ship with suitable boni (check armageddon) in practically all ranges, especially with the "best" gank setup, T2 short range. Range with T2 long is insulting. Only with T1 ammo has the comparison any semblance of balance... In short they would outrange AND outdamage everything. I thought it would just be not-very balanced, but it seems I underestimated the problem. If that weapon was implemented as described, it would be a slap at the face of balance.
Those setups which lack tracking computations, damage type comparisons, and dont have heat sinks skew the damage comparisons to the Geddon. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.01 23:32:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Neuromandis I think these nice graphs are the exact thing I was trying to explain in all my previous posts - they simply overpower everything in a ship with suitable boni (check armageddon) in practically all ranges, especially with the "best" gank setup, T2 short range. Range with T2 long is insulting. Only with T1 ammo has the comparison any semblance of balance... In short they would outrange AND outdamage everything. I thought it would just be not-very balanced, but it seems I underestimated the problem. If that weapon was implemented as described, it would be a slap at the face of balance.
Those setups which lack tracking computations, damage type comparisons, and dont have heat sinks skew the damage comparisons to the Geddon.
This is true Goumin. Not sure how I missed leaving the transversal at 0m/s. That's rediculous and it does skew the graphs. I will repost them with some transversal in a couple of hours. I left all the damage mods off though it does overweight the Geddon. Can you give a suggestion on what ships are normally running how many dmods so I can place it in?
I also had some folks ask me to put a Maelstrom and a Hyperion on the graphs as well for comparison's sake. Will do that as well.
Neuro - You have to look at the fitting costs. The other ships will have a tank. The Amarr ones won't have much (if any) when fitting a tachy class laser.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.01 23:50:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Goumindong on 01/03/2007 23:48:03 Edited by: Goumindong on 01/03/2007 23:47:25 Run all the ships with 3 damage mods, except the hyperion if its listed, give it 2 damage mods[and ions]. Geddon should still come out on top, maybe not on top of the Abaddon.
Run with about 50-200m/s transversal since we are shooting at battleship sized targets. Then 100-400 m/s transversal against cruiser sized targets.
Give the Geddon, and abaddon a tracking computer, and give the Apoc two.
Dont factor damage type differences, but keep them in mind anyway.
ed: but still the better thing is to make the low teir weapons better and not mess with the top teir ones. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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General Apocalypse
Amarr The Merchant Marines Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2007.03.01 23:57:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 01/03/2007 19:34:09 *rant rant rant* . I'm afraid that CVA will kick our ass whit those so me losing is something that will make the game unbalanced .
Quoted for Truth .
On a more serious side Tach Mega Pulse might make Amarr shine a lil more in PvP . Anyone kudos to Stamm for most of his proposals . Try making a post on the game development forums as welland keep them bumped
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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.02 00:26:00 -
[42]
Any setup using Tachyon pulses would be a high DPS setup, losing a slot to an RCU2 would mean that any pilot using these is looking for the highest DPS he can get. If he's looking for a more balanced fitting, then he's going to use megapulse, and stick an extra heat sink on (and thereby do more damage). The only time Tachyons will be better than Megas is where you're already hitting the stacking penalty wall.
Showing graphs of the tachyon pulses with anything less than 2 heat sinks isn't going to be showing realistic fits.
Mega pulse + 1 damage mod > Tachyon pulse.
That's why I asked for a Tachyon pulse +3 damage mods, and a Mega pulse +4 damage mods. Any more than 4 damage mods even on a fit that's looking for extreme DPS is not going to happen.
Going back to touch on 1400s/425s/megabeams. The megabeam may be more or less the equal of these, but it is not the equal on range. That's why without Tachyons Amarr really struggle to get sniper range up to match other ships (ignoring the supersniping Rokh).
T2 guns with T2 ammo, range is 100% optimal + 50% falloff.
1400 - 129K 425 - 144K Mega - 117.6K Tachy - 130.8K
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Neuromandis
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.03.02 00:42:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 02/03/2007 00:39:37
Originally by: Nyxus Neuro - You have to look at the fitting costs. The other ships will have a tank. The Amarr ones won't have much (if any) when fitting a tachy class laser.
Nyxus
As I said before, I really don't believe that you can get away with having "oversized" short range weapons the same way that you can get away with the already tight-fitting Long range ones. I don't think that bigger fitting is an excuse for what I saw in the T2 short-range ammo graph tbh - not with the loads of grids the Amarr have and the non-stacknerfable rigs for grid et.c. But that's another convo entirely I think.
In fact I aggree with Gourmingdog that it would be much more to the point ot fix the low-tier ones.
Looking forward to adjusted graphs, anyway.
P.s. : There is also another matter: if you add Tachypulses and make them as un-fit-able as Tachybeams you will have MAJOR playerbase problems because then people will just regard them their high-tier weapons and will complain saying "ZOMG why can everyone else fit their best weapons and I cannot without gimping my setup? WAAAHHH CCP CHEATORZZZZ FIX AMAR PLZPLZPLZ!!!111!!!ONEONE!!"
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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.02 01:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Stamm on 02/03/2007 01:28:07
Originally by: Neuromandis
P.s. : There is also another matter: if you add Tachypulses and make them as un-fit-able as Tachybeams you will have MAJOR playerbase problems because then people will just regard them their high-tier weapons and will complain saying "ZOMG why can everyone else fit their best weapons and I cannot without gimping my setup? WAAAHHH CCP CHEATORZZZZ FIX AMAR PLZPLZPLZ!!!111!!!ONEONE!!"
Suits me just fine. The less people that can see Amarr weaknesses and strengths, the less people that will fit Amarr effectively, thus the more my "only an" Absolution or Abaddon will be seen.
I do see what you're saying though, but we need to get away from the "biggest is always the only choice" weapon.
Have a look at the prices of guns out there, it's always the highest tier one that's most in demand. Anything that breaks that trend, and gives -genuine- choice over what weapon to fit is pretty good. Of course another problem with that is the stacking nerf on damage mods. Damage mods should get nerfed and come with a stacking penalty that only ensures each damage mod gives the same %age increase in DPS that the first one did. That way people can choose to fit as many damage mods as they want to, and we get away from the necessity to fit the biggest weapons because you can only go for 3 damage mods.
Edit : Oh and the reasons why Amarr should get Tachyon Pulse. Because it suits Amarr just perfectly.
Which race would build a weapon so stupidly overpowered that their ships can't really fit it? Only Amarr.
Give us our ultra high WTFpwn Tachyon Pulses, but make us pay dearly in every single department for it. It IS the Amarr way.
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.02 15:08:00 -
[45]
Hmmm....transversal changes this quite a bit. I think you will find these new graphs interesting to say the least. The Typhoon is amazingly strong dps ship if set up to be.
Tachyon Pulse with 3 dmods and 200 transveral - T1 Ammo
Sad....even Tachyon Pulse can't help the Apoc that lacks a damage bonus. Even when set to gank mode.
TPulse with T2 long range ammo - graphed now to 60km!!
Long range Amarrian dominance in short range weapons. Not suprising. The Amarrian DPS is a bit on the high side since it includes drones that are useful at 20km and fairly useless at 40km. I was tempted to redo this graph and leave the drones off the Amarr ships since it's misleading but didn't want to hear 20 posts of "omg u forget drones lololol!!1!!11". Will be happy to post it if anyone wants to see em.
Close range high damage love with T2 ammo. Yarrr!
Again, midrange oversized gun no tank dominance in the dps department. Of course anything that gets close will pop you with no problem, but you will go down in a blaze of pew pew laser glory while praising God and Empire. True Amarrian style.
I don't see the Tachyon Pulse being overpowering. Potent, but with transveral it just gives Amarr a needed oversize gun to use for midrange. Seeing as how our long range guns are too short except for the Tachyon it would be nice to see an oversize gun that is much longer and has more dps in the pulse catagory.
Finally @ Goumin - I am in complete agreeance that the 2nd tier Amarr weapons HAVE to be adjusted in comparison to Projectiles and Blasters. Amarr are double penalized with less range AND less damage. But be that as it may I don't see why the Tachyon Pulse shouldn't be added for oversized crazyness as well.
Nyxus
EDIT: T2 Long range where midrange ships don't have drones. Since drones @ 45km are fairly useless.
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.02 15:54:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 02/03/2007 15:51:57
Originally by: Stamm
Edit : Oh and the reasons why Amarr should get Tachyon Pulse. Because it suits Amarr just perfectly.
Which race would build a weapon so stupidly overpowered that their ships can't really fit it? Only Amarr.
Give us our ultra high WTFpwn Tachyon Pulses, but make us pay dearly in every single department for it. It IS the Amarr way.
So, can I please expect to see the same idea implemented on other levels beside BS guns? I've never knew the 'amarrian way' is to neglect all other ships except 3 BSs
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 02/03/2007 15:51:57
Originally by: Stamm
Edit : Oh and the reasons why Amarr should get Tachyon Pulse. Because it suits Amarr just perfectly.
Which race would build a weapon so stupidly overpowered that their ships can't really fit it? Only Amarr.
Give us our ultra high WTFpwn Tachyon Pulses, but make us pay dearly in every single department for it. It IS the Amarr way.
So, can I please expect to see the same idea implemented on other levels beside BS guns? I've never knew the 'amarrian way' is to neglect all other ships except 3 BSs
Well Tachyons are a BS sized gun phenomenon. So, prolly no tachys for sub-bs ships.
However as Goumin has pointed out, fixing the fitting of the smaller lasers (beams) and making the 2nd tiers worth fitting will go a long way to helping amarr.
Well that and nerfing omni tanks a bit.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:05:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 02/03/2007 15:51:57
Originally by: Stamm
Edit : Oh and the reasons why Amarr should get Tachyon Pulse. Because it suits Amarr just perfectly.
Which race would build a weapon so stupidly overpowered that their ships can't really fit it? Only Amarr.
Give us our ultra high WTFpwn Tachyon Pulses, but make us pay dearly in every single department for it. It IS the Amarr way.
So, can I please expect to see the same idea implemented on other levels beside BS guns? I've never knew the 'amarrian way' is to neglect all other ships except 3 BSs
Have you tried fitting Heavy Beam IIs? They're oversized weapons :P
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Kye Do'lan
Gallente The Whitesands Consortium
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:39:00 -
[49]
How about some heavy pulse tachyons....they would fit nicely on my zealot
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter. C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.03.02 19:19:00 -
[50]
all looks very good.
amarr are still outdamaged up close. out past 30km....you should fear that amarr laser boat. Right now, other races laugh as they tank the damage, close range, and do more damage in the lat 10 seconds then the amarr boat did in the previous 30.
amarr give up so much. We are most vulnerable to EW. We have the weakest sensor strengths, easiest to be jammed, we have some of the shortest sensor ranges, omg damps, we have super high cap use weapons, making our tanks suck. We have fixed damage types. We have complete lack of midslots, no EW for us. We are not that fast.
what do we get in exchange for this? right now, nothing. With tachyonpulse, we start to get something.
you will need a tackler to make use of that dps, it fits in perfectly with amarr combat flavor. If you are alone, and an amarr BS warps in at proper range from you, you SHOULD be scared.
Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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