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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Xeoz
The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:24:00 -
[1]
I have to agree with what everyone else is saying. Simply nuking the lottery will only make the situation worse.
It seems to me, that the solution to the whole T2 problem isn't to make these items rarer. The solution is to make them more common. Tech 2 is already considered minimum equipment in most every facet of eve.
The idea of simply deleting the T2 lottery while leaving those lucky (or rich) enough to already own a bpo with a golden ticket that no one else will ever be able to get again. That is just insane.
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WhiskeyDP
The Druids
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:24:00 -
[2]
the change they are doing now should have been delt with _before_ the new seeding of t2 bpo's
i said it for a very, very long time now. there is waaay too much isk in eve. its way to easy to get it in all area's. instead of seeding new t2 bpo's this last time(and ruining maybe 80% of the t2 market to just fix the remaining 20%) they should have put all those bpo's on market(actually unlimited amount of bpo's on market) but maybe 100b for a hac bpo and so on, the market would have adjusted itself over time on highly profitable bpo's.
dont ask me how they should fix it now but imo they messed it up way too much since start
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=== eve is not all about isk, its about enjoying the game. lots of iskies is not the same as enjoying the game |
Temerlyn
Minmatar STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:26:00 -
[3]
I personally think tech 2 BPO's should stay in the game but the lottery get removed.
Instead allow invention to be done in 0.0 space useing POS research labs or something. Then and only then is there a small chance of a tech 2 BPO being made.
Tech 2 BPO's should continue in the game just gotten in a more active persuit than the current inactive way.
In due time the market will drop as more and more people get BPO's but at least ANYONE can get them and being rare as all hell.
Even make them come out at -10 effeciency and such as research times on tech 2 is monstrous.
Eventually tech 2 will go down, more bpo's will exists and tech 2 will become the base line, but it would take 6 months to a year before this happened and by this time tech 3 would be available to do the same thing with except need even bigger and different resources to make.
getting rid of the idea of BPO's is stupid especially if you have had the idea for ages. There is no way to roleplay of only ever getting copies. I know eve doesn't equal real life but a blue print does not get destroyed after 20 uses.
Keep tech 2 BPO's
Give all players new and old a chance to invent new ones.
Make inventing BPO's a 0.0 activity.
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Ky Vatta
Caldari Empire Mining and Industrial Taskforce
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:26:00 -
[4]
Has anyone ever wondered how Tech 2 prices got so high in the first place?? It is all because CCP decided to stop agents giving out components (needed for building Tech 2 items) as rewards for missions OK, it was supposedly to encourage more people to moon-mine at POS`s, and so start making more components, but it never really got off the ground This helped the Tech 2 BPo holders to get insane profits, which is why a lot of people hate the Tech2 BPO holders...
However, if the components became more common again, it is doubtful prices will drop much, if at all, as the builders prefer larger profits, even if costs are lower, thus encouraging more hate towards Tech 2.... ---
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Kaimon ValDreth
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:28:00 -
[5]
I don't understand why we can't just seed them in all the empire markets and the people who got them through the lottery should be damn happy they got theirs for free. If they were producing, or as others like to call "printing money" while they had a monopoly, fine good for them. Its time to seed them and let those that have had them be thankful they got theirs for free. Hell why not even keep the lottery to give poor people a shot. I don't care. But I must say its time to start seeding. When a HAC costs a fairly small amount of cash to build then they sell for 200mil thats a little insane.
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:28:00 -
[6]
I've said it before, but I'll say it again:
T2 production should be limited by resources, reactions and components supply, the infrastructure to produce, and the logistics involved, not by just the blueprints. |
Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon T2 is a problem because the BPOs get concentrated.... invention won't help that, unless successful invention is easier to achieve.
Concentration of t2 bpo's into the hands of one entity/community is not the result of everyone there got lucky with their R&D but due to many of them worked together, pooled resources to be able to buy prints from those who sold. You can't penalize these players for doing this.
The key to it isnt to penalize people who got lucky, worked for it, or in other ways aquired their prints. The key would be to fix invention (which was working quite well before they nerfed the runs tbh, or at least well enough to make it noticeable on the market).
I do have some t2 bpo's, and yes I know that a with invention being enhanced/fixed it would have an impact on the value of my prints and what is possible to earn from these. I also know that with invention I can look into build other t2 mods/ships that give higher profit back than what current prints are able to make. Over time invention would affect market prices.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nials Corva
The work involved with invention can never, even theoretically, be less than the work involved in a BPO. The risk can never be less. The manufacturing cost can never be less for any non-stupidly trivial scenario.
This is exactly what I said when I stated that a BPo holder would have a higher margin per module/ship sold. "But" said BPO Holder can't build faster than it's BPO, while an inventor can put 5 or 10 invented BPC in production at the same time. Less margin, but more productivity, provided that he put some effort.
Originally by: Nials Corva
There is no possible circumstance in which T2 production from a BPC via invention can ever compete with production from a BPO. Hell, there's no way that a BPC from invention can ever be used for anything except a curbing of excessive profits on a BPO.
It's competition that dirve prices down, so saying that invention can't compete while stating that it will curb the profits on some BPOs is strange...
Originally by: Nials Corva
No matter how many BPCs there are on the market, the best that can happen is that prices hold steady at the Invention production costs, meaning that invention will make almost no profit and the BPO holders will still be rolling in cash. Is it reasonable that the absolute best case scenario is that the T2 market will survive, but only the current BPO holders will ever have a hope of making any profit?
The only reason why invention isn't profitable now is because, before the last patch, the 90-runs and 40-runs were SO profitable, that inventors were ready to pay just about anything to invent things as soon as possible, because they suspected their profits woudln't stay high forever. If anything, the market prices would fall down from the suddenly enormous oversupply. Datacores will fall down in price, because now one will buy them now, and things will balance themselve out...
If you want an example, I know someone who bought an Esoteric interface for almost 5 billions. He used it to invent 90-runs Invul fields II Bpcs, and in about 2 weeks of efforts, milked 630 runs out of it. Margin per invented module: about 15 millions. Profit: 9.45 billion.
Do you know many T2 BPOs that gives you 4.2 billions profit per week?
Of course, things have changed now, but the mechanic stay the same: more efforts put into an interface = more profit, while with a BPO it's few efforts = fixed profit... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:29:00 -
[9]
You want trust and are hoping to gain it by replacing the BPO system with one that could only be medled with by a database admin... this the blog says would be extremely trackable... yet lets not forget that this is entirely and completely worthless since kieron here directly lied to us when he had known for months that the allegations were true. My trust isnt coming back but you can still have my money every month. Eve is to sweet to say no to.
My main issue with invention is not neccesarilly the skill requirements... but the high sec centralised RP system... should it not be possible for a large corp or alliance with POS's/outposts to create their own RP? (I dont mean to give them a massively insane number per day... but really... missions suck... there has to be a better way...) perhaps the option for alliances to gain remote access to agents in return for some kind of archeological treasure found in our space in 0.0...
Or low sec... exploration is already helping the pirates and carebears in lowsec by increasing the cash to be had as well as the number of people around... if CCP intends low sec to be a deadzone/ghetto (not a bad idea given the shiny carebearness of high sec being seperated from the sweetness of 0.0) then why not pump even more into exploration in the hope of eventually replacing the majority of missions with player based events such as exploration.
Also is RP an essential step in the path to invention? (other than buying the parts on the market) because this seems to give multiple account owners the single biggest advantage ive seen yet... you can only play one at a time but you can collect RP over as many as you like...
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:30:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 21/02/2007 23:26:49
Originally by: Farrellus Cameron Getting rid of the lottery will probably create a giant whine-fest from all those people who have been running five accounts with 15 characters each with 5 lvl 4 R&D agents. Those whines should be pretty entertaining.
Since Datacores are the limiting factor to invention, its a lot more likely that those people will be the new upper class in terms of passive income.
As for your other ideas ... eve needs investment, not more work and grind.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:32:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ky Vatta Has anyone ever wondered how Tech 2 prices got so high in the first place?? It is all because CCP decided to stop agents giving out components (needed for building Tech 2 items) as rewards for missions OK, it was supposedly to encourage more people to moon-mine at POS`s, and so start making more components, but it never really got off the ground This helped the Tech 2 BPo holders to get insane profits, which is why a lot of people hate the Tech2 BPO holders...
However, if the components became more common again, it is doubtful prices will drop much, if at all, as the builders prefer larger profits, even if costs are lower, thus encouraging more hate towards Tech 2....
Actually, there is a over-supply of pos materials, which make making tech2 building components quite cheap. You really need a good moon these days to make a healty living from pos's. I dont quite see the relation this have to do with give t2 bpo holders insane profits. Also not every t2 print gives a high yield.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Compliance
Republic of Texas
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:33:00 -
[12]
If you can fix invention (eg make marginally profitable, stop datacores being such a huge bottleneck) and remove the existing t2 bpos this would be a fine solution.
If you leave the existing t2 bpos in, what on earth is even the point?
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Compliance If you can fix invention (eg make marginally profitable, stop datacores being such a huge bottleneck) and remove the existing t2 bpos this would be a fine solution.
If you leave the existing t2 bpos in, what on earth is even the point?
Actually it wouldn't the supply of t2 would decrease and press price up.
The point of invention was to gain another source of t2. And it works, (well worked until they nerfed the runs making invention become a huge isk sink). With invention working you could still produce t2 modules/ships at profit. Sure profit would be less than what someone with a original print got, but it still would be profit (and you could supply your corp/alliance with t2 at lower cost than market too).
Invention is nice, because it will affect the t2 mods/ships with the highest mark up's thus pritty much wont screw over the players with low yield t2 bpo's. Although, invention need to be fixed and balanced out compared to how it is no.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Black Adams
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:41:00 -
[14]
Hmmmm.....I've been playing almost 3 years and I've only just recently had a t2 bpo. Power Diagnostic System II to be exact. I've spent months training up the skills to carry out copy, PE and ME research on it and I've only made 50 units. I can't say that I'd be too happy if it was converted into a 200run bpc.
However, I've had lots of time to be jealous of all those lucky t2 bpo owners and I was looking forward to invention as a rival system for the lottery or indeed a way of exchanging rp's for bpc's. Given that t2 is destined to be the new baseline and t3 needs room in game to come, I favour the 'flood the market' with t2 bpo's approach because then only those dedicated to a good efficient supply chain will make isk.
In all honesty, removing items will only cause (maybe short-term) supply problems that will push prices up.
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Compliance
Republic of Texas
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Actually it wouldn't the supply of t2 would decrease and press price up.
The point of invention was to gain another source of t2. And it works, (well worked until they nerfed the runs making invention become a huge isk sink).
Although, invention need to be fixed and balanced out compared to how it is no.
That's what I'm saying. I love the idea for invention as the sole source of t2/t3, but it has to be workable first. Right now its only *possibly* good for knocking down a few of the 1000% markup t2 goods.
And if you plan to make invention the sole source for god's sake make the bpos degrade or turn into bpcs, otherwise its obviously not going to be the sole source.
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Skyy
Caldari The Knights Templar Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:44:00 -
[16]
1. Keep the lottery WITH BPCS!!!! You just need to realize the BALANCE of MORE t2 bps... more more more. You're playerbase has increased... there is NO reason for these t2 bpos, which are now PVP STANDARDS to make a never ending richness. Make them BPCS with limited TIME runs, not QUANITY runs.
2. Make invention easier
3. Listen to me.
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Taizu Lilith
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:44:00 -
[17]
One thing to remember is that currently most people aren't producing DataCores because there are a lot of T2 BPOs available. And actually, hearing that they might give out more makes me want to hold on to my RP even more (I don't have much, but I might get lucky).
So Datacores aren't really the limit the appear to be now. Obviously, if T2 is easier to produce, the T2 BPOs which have been in game will go down in profit margin. But they will always be easier than Invention (as long as Invention takes exploration and more and creates BPCs) even if the BPCs have good upgrades (ME and PE) nad have higher profit margin.
It seems to me that there are a couple options: 1 Make Invention easier until it nears profit margins of BPO holders. This won't be checkable until after all BPOs are given out and people start cashing in their RP for datacores. 2 Chnage current T2 BPOs to long run BPCs... this will probably raise prices on certain T2 Items, and might not lower prices on anything (but might, once more we won't see Invention really working how it was intended to until people start cashing in their RP for Datacores).
And yes, big T2 producers currently have a lot of scientist alts... and in a cluster dominated by invention they will still have a lot of scientist alts (for the Datacores). This is just like Miners having lots of alts... Or serious combat pilots.
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Ky Vatta
Caldari Empire Mining and Industrial Taskforce
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Originally by: Ky Vatta Has anyone ever wondered how Tech 2 prices got so high in the first place?? It is all because CCP decided to stop agents giving out components (needed for building Tech 2 items) as rewards for missions OK, it was supposedly to encourage more people to moon-mine at POS`s, and so start making more components, but it never really got off the ground This helped the Tech 2 BPo holders to get insane profits, which is why a lot of people hate the Tech2 BPO holders...
However, if the components became more common again, it is doubtful prices will drop much, if at all, as the builders prefer larger profits, even if costs are lower, thus encouraging more hate towards Tech 2....
Actually, there is a over-supply of pos materials, which make making tech2 building components quite cheap. You really need a good moon these days to make a healty living from pos's. I dont quite see the relation this have to do with give t2 bpo holders insane profits. Also not every t2 print gives a high yield.
OK, making them is cheap...but are people making them at all?? there are still limited supllies on components in Empire, which is where most business is conducted (business in 0.0?? don`t make me wet myself laughing) ---
CEO |
Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 21/02/2007 21:26:01 .....
Also, please give 0.0 NPC factions R&D agents! Invention should not be limited to empire space (theres invention slots in 0.0, but no agents)!
This will only encourage more people to do invention.
There are plenty of R&D agents in low sec.
Moving or adding agents in 0.0 is only givina nother rtesource there, where currently all the good ones are. And it will end with 99.99% of the blueprints and components for datainterfaces staying in 0.0. Currently there is a trade of those from 0.00 to empire, and datacores from empire to 0.0.
Adding agents in 0.0 will stop that.
And where they would be seeded? only in the NPC controlled regions?, Everywere?, in the drones region too?, or the people who has moved in the drone regions will get cut off from invention?
I the distribuitions of new agents is uneven new cries of foul play will start: "Alliance A has got 3 agend, we are got only 1, and bad quality too, not fair."
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Tohel Landback
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:45:00 -
[20]
Seed t2 on the market and use invention for t3. All have the same opportunities that way.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:48:00 -
[21]
at the current state removing the lotto/bpo's would only increase the price on T2 items/ships as invention costs a lot, and the amount you spend on invention will be added to the price-tag of the ship/module making it more expensive, but that only reflects my personal experience with invention - maybe I did it wrong.
Help me help you. |
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:49:00 -
[22]
I thought that the main reason why you implemented the T2 Lottery was because you manually wanted to control the progress of the playerbase from T1 to T2 to T3 etc. A worthy goal, I suppose. Since then, I've seen EVE go from T1 to T2 to... a screeching halt. Have you abandoned your original plan to move up to T5 eventually? Have you decided that instead of reaching T5 in 5 years, we should play the game for 50 years before it's finally time?
Eh, it doesn't matter. No need to answer.
MMO's have "calculable progression" at their core, "if I spend x amount of months, I can achieve y gear." Nobody likes a manual, dev-controlled, loot distribution system. We're accustomed to drop percentages, loot lists, and generally calculable loot distribution systems. The T2 lottery was a real disappointment because it wasn't one of these, it was an "at the whim of the devs" distribution system. Or at least that's what the PERCEPTION of it is.
You've tried so hard to "prevent" item mudflation that this game's lost a lot of the fun it could have had. Feels like it's moving at a snail's pace. Actually, it feels like you've stopped it, and are trying to milk our subscriptions for as long as possible, without adding any new shineys. Meanwhile, your competition is pushing out new tiers of gear with every patch, and their playerbase is exploding because of it.
I don't care about the particulars of the invention system. Like rigs, POSes, and pretty much everything you've added in the past 2 years, I expect it to be pre-nerfed to hell and inaccessible to me. Not very enticing, is it?
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Ky Vatta
Caldari Empire Mining and Industrial Taskforce
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:49:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Chribba at the current state removing the lotto/bpo's would only increase the price on T2 items/ships as invention costs a lot, and the amount you spend on invention will be added to the price-tag of the ship/module making it more expensive, but that only reflects my personal experience with invention - maybe I did it wrong.
Sadly, no.....greed always wins... ---
CEO |
Taizu Lilith
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth I don't understand why we can't just seed them in all the empire markets and the people who got them through the lottery should be damn happy they got theirs for free. If they were producing, or as others like to call "printing money" while they had a monopoly, fine good for them. Its time to seed them and let those that have had them be thankful they got theirs for free. Hell why not even keep the lottery to give poor people a shot. I don't care. But I must say its time to start seeding. When a HAC costs a fairly small amount of cash to build then they sell for 200mil thats a little insane.
Because it takes the scientist profession out of the cluster. Invention is an attempt (broken?) to make the cluster richer, to make the scientist profession more valid (as is Exploration). Before being a scientist was assisting industrialists... and having tickets in the lottery.
Invention gives us something to do, it just needs to be set up properly so that it is worth doing...
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ky Vatta
OK, making them is cheap...but are people making them at all?? there are still limited supllies on components in Empire, which is where most business is conducted (business in 0.0?? don`t make me wet myself laughing)
I make thousands of tech2 building components a month. Most of my source of materials is from the market, and I end up build them for own production, not to sell on the market. There is many specialized component builders in eve who deliver high quantity.
I dont build components to sell on the market because they dont move much unless priced so low its not worth the effort. A factory job need to earn its time. If I can build something else that give more profit, I do so.
If you cant find the components you need, then buy the materials and build them yourself.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Luigi Thirty
Caldari FIRMA
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:53:00 -
[26]
So people with BPOs get to keep them and nobody else ever gets a chance to get them. Wonderful. ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( |
Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:53:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Shayla Etherodyne on 22/02/2007 00:00:27
Originally by: DriveCrash I like that at least this is being looked into. However I dont like the idea that there would be x number of players with bpo's which no one else would ever have a chance to obtain. Perhaps turn the old bpo's into very high run copys. something so that it evens out the field. Otherwise the people that do invention to produce the T2 equipment will just be undercut by the BPO holders who can produce with FAR less time invested.
Even if invention is tweaked and bottlenecks removed, it will still not compare to grabbing the parts, useing your bpo, and throwing it in the oven. If new players have to do it (invention) old players should to. Granted people that hold bpo's currently would be highly upset.. but I was pretty upset when I could no longer print isk by copying bookmarks. But it's a fact of life and the game, things change. You accept, you deal with it, and you move on. If they (the bpo holders) cannot accept this, perhaps it's time to look at the sitation from a new perspective..
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Must my 2cents. -DriveCrash
While this is right conceptually, it will be a big slap in the face for the recent BPO owner, I have got my first BPO 5 days ago (an ammunition one, nothing great). I have learned some extra skill I was still lacking, and just started production.
I was looking to the option to get about 5 millions/day with little work (but getting the BPO has required about 40 days of training in science related skills, and a good number of mission for the standing).
The research alt I have build has required a bit more than 2 months in training and mission running to get 5 agents and 7+ in standing with the relevant corporation.
If the BPO are converted to BPC most of that work is wasted. Looking the field required for my BPC (and those I was going to train to increase the quality of the BPO (even more than those needed for the production)) I get the impression I have spent alll that work in the wrong field, and that my 4,2 millions SP in science could have best spent in other fields
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm R i s e
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:53:00 -
[28]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 21/02/2007 23:53:19 kieron, oveur, whomever:
I dont see a need for invention to totally take over. It can, if done correctly of course, but i would suggest (as many have before me):
Simply change the lottery to higher run bpc's instead of bpo's.
So, you will have a once/twice a year lottery where ppl get lucky and nab i high run bpc for some t2.
Then, throughout the year at anytime ppl can look to invention for yet another source of t2 bpcs. Would these be equal or of lesser caliber (in respect to # of runs)? Thats your call, but i'd say make them a decent fraction of the value (runs) of a lottery run bpc's.
Finally, bury the the entire past mistakes by announcing to the community that after 6-8-12 (whatever) months you will be converting ALL bpos to high run BPCs.
Simple, effective, /win.
edit: i am concerned however that current bpo's will remain bpo's. I'm not sure how that jives w/ your current plan to eliminate lotteries and convert to bpc's. If your going to convert to bpc's you have to go all the way.
What sense will it make in a year or two if teh entire community is forced to work for bpc's while a select few will still be able to sit on their moneymakers?
------------------------ From here on out i'm pretty sure CAOD forums = Jerry Springer
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Ingols
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:53:00 -
[29]
People screaming for T2 BPO to just simply dissapear; It's unreasonable. What they will do however (or can) is to make invention so ridiculously easy that "invention made T2 ships" are competative with BPO made T2 ships.
This means of course means margins of 10% to 20% will become more the norm then these 200% margins of today.
But that doesn't mean overall prices are going to come down. They'll come down some for sure, but with the increase of T2 builders with invention, the T2 components prices are going to skyrocket. So you might see in the end, T2 HAC prices dropping about 30%, profit margins dropping to 15%, and the new bastard child to pick on for obscene profits will be the Moon harvesters/pos owners.
So lets sharpen up our claws and getty those soon to be filthy rich POS owners.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Luigi Thirty So people with BPOs get to keep them and nobody else ever gets a chance to get them. Wonderful.
What would you prefer? Get a small ammo print, or do invention and aim for the most profitable module/ship to invent? Not much of a choice is it? Lottery is like a box of chocolate. With invention you pick your own prize.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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