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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
sb404
Caldari Tarnak inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.24 14:02:00 -
[181]
I'm going to try my hand at thinking outside the box here.
It might sound rediculous at first, but anyone that cares to try it and let me know just how dumb it was is more than welcome.
So here it comes...
Anyone thought about popping drones infront of the nanobs as it is webbed and running off inertia to the gate? Wouldn't it hit the wreck and be thrown out of allignment?
What about dropping cans infront of it? Wouldn't it have a similar "concord billboard effect"?
There you have it, now back to the same old boring thread, once you've wipped the tears from your eyes and cleaned up the coffee from your screen.
------------------------------------------------- I never wrote this -Eris
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Spaced Skunk
Buffed Rumpuss Zit Dids
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Posted - 2007.01.24 14:02:00 -
[182]
The dominix and typhoon setup for speed are very much cap dependant, and I say balance nosferatu before you nerf nano/inertia modules.
Why should CCP nerf 'a setup'? If maybe CCP thought about the fittings on the Dominix (hard to fit blaster setup) and the fittings on the Typhoon (damned rediculous, too hard to fit, needs more powergrid and CPU), there would be more setups flying about yes?
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Axia Firehead
Amarr Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.01.24 14:58:00 -
[183]
then, all nanoBS user, as they keep telling us that web is the solution will be agree that web need to be instant ? then, once we could web one, the inertia wont allow him to go the gate or out of range without problem
little grunt |
Zanarkand
Gallente Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.01.24 15:03:00 -
[184]
Typhoon DPS is NOT irrelevant. 5 Heavies + 4 siege + 3 Heavy nosf(or possibly 4) is NOT easy to tank.
I hope they don't nerf Nanophoons before I can fly one >_>
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.24 15:32:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Zanarkand Edited by: Zanarkand on 24/01/2007 15:05:17 Typhoon DPS is NOT irrelevant. 5 Heavies + 4 siege + 3 Heavy nosf(or possibly 4) is NOT easy to tank. Missiles do (nearly) 0 dmg, guns don't track, heavy/medium t2 drones are outrunned by nanophoons. Weee... warrior IIs might actually do some awesome dmg vs a nanoBS.
Speed is it's tank, don't bother saying thing like "it will die when it gets fired at.." That means you most likely killed a 1.5km/s nanoBS and won EVE at that day...
I hope they don't nerf Nanophoons before I can fly one >_>
from where people created that myth that turrets can't track a nanoBS? Their signature is the size of a moon!!! Turrets can track them almost as well as if they were moving with MWD off!! Put a nanophoon to fight an AC tempest and dare to TRY and you will see who pwons the other!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
MrTripps
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.24 15:45:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Rachel Vend ...it's not that hard to kill them when you get some webs on him.
That is like saying it is not that hard to date a Playmate when you are Hugh Hefner.
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.24 15:56:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Zanarkand Edited by: Zanarkand on 24/01/2007 15:05:17 Typhoon DPS is NOT irrelevant. 5 Heavies + 4 siege + 3 Heavy nosf(or possibly 4) is NOT easy to tank. Missiles do (nearly) 0 dmg, guns don't track, heavy/medium t2 drones are outrunned by nanophoons. Weee... warrior IIs might actually do some awesome dmg vs a nanoBS.
Speed is it's tank, don't bother saying thing like "it will die when it gets fired at.." That means you most likely killed a 1.5km/s nanoBS and won EVE at that day...
I hope they don't nerf Nanophoons before I can fly one >_>
from where people created that myth that turrets can't track a nanoBS? Their signature is the size of a moon!!! Turrets can track them almost as well as if they were moving with MWD off!! Put a nanophoon to fight an AC tempest and dare to TRY and you will see who pwons the other!
The Nanophoon does...
And it it doesnt, it turns tail and leaves. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.24 16:39:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Zanarkand Edited by: Zanarkand on 24/01/2007 15:05:17 Typhoon DPS is NOT irrelevant. 5 Heavies + 4 siege + 3 Heavy nosf(or possibly 4) is NOT easy to tank. Missiles do (nearly) 0 dmg, guns don't track, heavy/medium t2 drones are outrunned by nanophoons. Weee... warrior IIs might actually do some awesome dmg vs a nanoBS.
Speed is it's tank, don't bother saying thing like "it will die when it gets fired at.." That means you most likely killed a 1.5km/s nanoBS and won EVE at that day...
I hope they don't nerf Nanophoons before I can fly one >_>
from where people created that myth that turrets can't track a nanoBS? Their signature is the size of a moon!!! Turrets can track them almost as well as if they were moving with MWD off!! Put a nanophoon to fight an AC tempest and dare to TRY and you will see who pwons the other!
The Nanophoon does...
And it it doesnt, it turns tail and leaves.
so you didnt even tried right? Casuse if you hadd you would discover that the nanophoon have absolutely no chance of killing a AC tempest (fit wih rougly same ammount of isk).
The autopest can EASILY track the nanophoon!! and the pathetic ank" of a nanophoon will not resist many seconds against a ACPest
This comes form the same people that say that missiles are the best thing to use agian nanoships.. complete nonsense!! missiles do zero damage to them. Turrets are far far better choice since the HUGE signature means that the speend is meaningless!! An ACpest can even track a nanocane extremely well!!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.24 17:17:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
so you didnt even tried right? Casuse if you hadd you would discover that the nanophoon have absolutely no chance of killing a AC tempest (fit wih rougly same ammount of isk).
The autopest can EASILY track the nanophoon!! and the pathetic ank" of a nanophoon will not resist many seconds against a ACPest
This comes form the same people that say that missiles are the best thing to use agian nanoships.. complete nonsense!! missiles do zero damage to them. Turrets are far far better choice since the HUGE signature means that the speend is meaningless!! An ACpest can even track a nanocane extremely well!!
Yup a similaly skilled and valuable tempest will drive off a similarly skilled and valuable nano-phoon. I am not disagreeing with that.
The difference is when that tempest comes accross a bigger and badder ship, say a full faction vindicator with officer guns and faction antimatter, the Nano-phoon just runs the other way, while the tempest explodes in a firey ball of steel and ductape.
P.S. while a tempest can easily track the Nano-phoon, you need an armageddon or other pulse laser user to actualy make a real big dent. A tempest will be at about half or less damage due to falloff[60% or so with barrage]. [and falloff rigs dont fit on it, that is reserved for the Maelstrom]The tempest will still do plenty of damage, yes, probably enough to drive the offending ship away.
But that just drives the ship away, it doesnt kill it.
So we setup a risk/benefit matrix 1= win, 0 = tie, -1= ship exploding
Best Middle Worst | Total Nano 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | Normal 1 | 0 | -1 | 0
Clearly the nanoship is superior, the worse case scenario is "i run away", the benefit matrix gives it a clear advantage over a normal ship. It wins, or it leaves.
This is why the answer to the question of "who wins in a fight between an AC pest and a nanophoon?" is "The nanophoon does, and if it doesnt, the nanophoon leaves."
If we setup the matrix to view a battle between the two it gets even worse for the AC pest. Because in the best case scenario against the nano-ship, it still doesnt destroy the nano-ship.
Best Middle Worst | Total Nano 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | Normal 0 | 0 | -1 | -1
Clearly there is a balance issue here. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Kuentai
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.24 17:47:00 -
[190]
One of the big strengths is that a nanoship is great at about 17km and thus thats where most of them orbit as getting closer will start cutting speed. 3 t2 damps on a non dampening bonus ship and an average nano bs isn't going to lock beyond 14km.
This spares hacs and recons which deserve to be able to nano due to prices as they have such a long natural lock range.
The fix is already here...
Stop being so lazy and think of these things people.
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"The good man has few enemies, but the ruthless... None." |
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.24 18:12:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Kuentai One of the big strengths is that a nanoship is great at about 17km and thus thats where most of them orbit as getting closer will start cutting speed. 3 t2 damps on a non dampening bonus ship and an average nano bs isn't going to lock beyond 14km.
This spares hacs and recons which deserve to be able to nano due to prices as they have such a long natural lock range.
The fix is already here...
Stop being so lazy and think of these things people.
this has already been addressed, please read the thread. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Hockston Axe
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.01.24 18:23:00 -
[192]
Amongst all the whines and cries about how they can't get kills, don't forget that these are also used a lot for extreme looting/salvaging. 3 salvage tackles (or any armor rigs) already gut your speed even with inertals/nanos, don't make my salvager a useless turtle because of the mass whineage about mass.
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sb404
Caldari Tarnak inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.24 18:50:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Hockston Axe Amongst all the whines and cries about how they can't get kills, don't forget that these are also used a lot for extreme looting/salvaging. 3 salvage tackles (or any armor rigs) already gut your speed even with inertals/nanos, don't make my salvager a useless turtle because of the mass whineage about mass.
Uhmmm... define extreme salvaging and "salvage tackles" please, I don't understand what you mean. ------------------------------------------------- I never wrote this -Eris
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.24 19:08:00 -
[194]
Originally by: sb404
Originally by: Hockston Axe Amongst all the whines and cries about how they can't get kills, don't forget that these are also used a lot for extreme looting/salvaging. 3 salvage tackles (or any armor rigs) already gut your speed even with inertals/nanos, don't make my salvager a useless turtle because of the mass whineage about mass.
Uhmmm... define extreme salvaging and "salvage tackles" please, I don't understand what you mean.
salvage tackles are salvage boosting rigs.
"extreme salvaging" probably means "salvaging a lot" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Tomsudy
Minmatar BloodThirsters Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.24 19:47:00 -
[195]
nnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
wth you guys wanna nerf some of the most fun ships ingames. Most fun since dual mwd and you lot wanna god dam nerf it ffs. Some of us love our new nano ships. Go work a way around em ffs but stop god dam moaning on the ******* forums till they get nerfed. The game is finally getting away from the basic 1v1 sit as close as possible and tank each other to death. The speed is more fun requires skill, please dont nerf my babys :( ________________________________________ THTA |
Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.24 19:53:00 -
[196]
Sad to see people want to have iwin buttons with like no training required, making all the specialized roleships useless..
I guess inties and vagas should just selfdestruct, right?
Jamming & Logoffski |
sb404
Caldari Tarnak inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.24 20:04:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: sb404
Originally by: Hockston Axe Amongst all the whines and cries about how they can't get kills, don't forget that these are also used a lot for extreme looting/salvaging. 3 salvage tackles (or any armor rigs) already gut your speed even with inertals/nanos, don't make my salvager a useless turtle because of the mass whineage about mass.
Uhmmm... define extreme salvaging and "salvage tackles" please, I don't understand what you mean.
salvage tackles are salvage boosting rigs.
"extreme salvaging" probably means "salvaging a lot"
I wanted to know what kind of extreme salvaging would require a nanobs... but didn't know about the rigs though.
------------------------------------------------- I never wrote this -Eris
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.24 20:06:00 -
[198]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/01/2007 20:03:01
Originally by: sb404
I wanted to know what kind of extreme salvaging would require a nanobs... but didn't know about the rigs though.
No, he is just worried about a nerf having a side effect of killing his ability to salvage really well. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2007.01.24 20:18:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 24/01/2007 20:15:49 Web him and he's down.
Webber is now standard fit for BS's to tackle other bs's. No biggie.
In addition, the mos tpowerful BS's (megathrons, abbadon, rohk's and hypers) cant use their guns in this crazy fast setup. Only drone ships and missle ships, which have always been 2nd tier in pvp to pure dedicated turret-gank setups.
I feel they give flexibility and variety to the fits of BSs. They stay. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
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Opai McTwist
Amarr The Sell Swords
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Posted - 2007.01.24 20:49:00 -
[200]
Yay. I formally pat the people who love their nano-whatevers on the back. Congratulations on finding something that allows you to disengage from a fight.
There seems to be some heavy disconnect between the two camps on this argument.
NoNerf camp: Seems to be saying that people whining for a nerf are just people that A)don't want to think creatively B)can't fly a hugin or a rapier C)don't fit webbers D)don't want to spend billions of isk on a counter E)just want to ruin a Nano-pilot's fun F)want easy ganks in bubble camps G)want to blob everyone to death.
Nerf Camp: Seem to be saying that NoNerf peeps A)want an iwin-solopwnmobile B)want a get-out-of-fight-free card C)forget about inertia and that webbers don't insta-work D)just want their WCS back E)just want to be able to gank and run with no danger
Additionally, it seems that some Nerf-ers post rational arguments, and some non-nerf-ers post a lot of straw-man arguments. Now that's just the impression I get from reading replies. Especially the "don't nerf it cuz its fun" argument.
The best arguments I've read so far are all on the side of doing something about the Nanoship fad. I understand that people are happy that they've found a speed "tank". While it "fits" in the game becuase of how modules and stats work, I don't believe for a second that it works as intended.
I have no problem with battleships going fast. I do have problems with battleships that go fast in circles, or can turn like interceptors. I don't have a problem with people trying to use speed as a "tank" I do have issues with the fact that an alert Nano pilot need never be tackled.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but it appears as if the most compelling arguments (in my opinion) from the Non-Nerf camp are: A) It is thinking outside the box, don't discourage that B) People only want it nerfed because its new and effective C) It costs a ton of isk, and people should get what they pay for
The most compelling arguments (again, in my opinion) from the Nerf camp are: A) It removes the role that interceptors and vagabonds currently occupy B) It can engage or disengage at will. No other ship enjoys that priviledge, especially now that WCS have been nerfed C) Sure a nano is paper-thin, and if caught will pop, but the trouble is catching one in the first place, so the lack of hitpoints argument falls short of convincing.
I think the best suggestions so far in this debate have centered on reducing the agility bonus that battleships currently enjoy, without reducing the speed factor; and for re-working nosferatus.
Please someone point out that I am wrong someplace, but from what I have been reading, the concept of a Battleship flying like an interceptor is just wrong and needs to be addressed.
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Elmicker
Unscoped Myriad Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.24 20:49:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Elmicker on 24/01/2007 20:48:42 Let us reiterate.
Webs do not work. Their inertia slowboats them to about 300km if they stop accelarating once the web hits, and they only have to drift for 100km or so until they can whack their mwd on for another spin (that's assuming you've got a huginn doing the webbing, and assuming the huginn survived the nos/drone fest sent its way) Warp scrambling does not work. They simply turn around and run. Sensor dampening holds them off, but only until they get up close and start locking you. And, as any lachesis pilot knows, speedy drone ships are your doom when relying on sensor damps. Camping them in the system does not work, because the average 6km/s nanobs will run a large bubble in mere seconds, that's even if they decide to run the large bubble (Assuming he's stuck about for 8 minutes to anchor the damned thing). They usually turn on a sixpence and are away in less than a second. Or decide to head 250km up and bounce a sniper and kill him, solo.
Getting them to run is not a good thing. Because they will just be back in 2 hours, when your lachesis/huginn/ACPest team have gone elsewhere and are doing other things.
The worst bit, is not their speed. I don't care if a BS is doing 6km/s if he's going to shoot straight past me, but when he can just perform a u-turn and come screaming back. Having BSs that can do that kind of speed and still manage to turn like that is the worst bit. Its like stab-fitted vagabonds all over again, but with heavy nos, drones and torps.
And no, it doesnt cost billions of isk. Anyone living in the south for any amount of time can fit a 3-4km/s nanoship with top end mods for ~150-200m, due to the rat drops (local hull ods, nanos and istabs, domi kit) being ideal.
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ElweSingollo
The Vanyar Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.01.24 21:22:00 -
[202]
Edited by: ElweSingollo on 24/01/2007 21:23:03
Originally by: Sadist Edited by: Sadist on 24/01/2007 11:04:56
Originally by: voogru
Originally by: Sadist
Originally by: Tomb A battleship is NOT and SHOULD NOT BE a SOLO-pwnmobile. (with the exception of Instab whoring on the typhoon or dominix)
Originally by: voogru Using combat logger, I did 16,646 points of damage, over 6 minutes 39 seconds, that comes out to a WHOOPING 41.71 DPS!
41.71 DPS != SOLO-pwnmobile
Aside from *snip*stating dps after resists and without drones (you know they dont show drone damage in the log, right?), you also forget the 4 heavy nos that the battleship has on your opponent, eradicating any possibility of a tank, even with injector.
If you have to use 3rd party programs to calculate your DPS, then, well, you're obviously incompetent to make any judgements about balance. How about you give us the real dps? Or ask for help in calculating it.
Err well as I was the target.....
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Lancer/Voogru_Damage.jpg
Which btw voogru asked me to post so people could see the damage I took... Voogru didn't use drones agaisnt me (not sure how much of a drone bay the mach has) but I would imagine any drones he did have would be less than the http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Lancer/Ehxo_Damage.jpg that was pounding on me damage wise so lets see it still would have taken 6-7 mins to kill me.
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Brotekk
Even-Flow
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Posted - 2007.01.24 21:46:00 -
[203]
I don't know about you guys. But if it kills me, I will petition and whine. /end sarcasm Although i don't like fighting them myself, Arbitrators have a hard time taking out a battleship moving that fast. I'm not complaining, I think it adds something. And the minmatar elite babies can quickly kill their point. Don't like it? Counter it. If you cant counter it, then shut up.
"Vitoc, Is it in you?" -Gheytorade chemicals
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:01:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/01/2007 21:59:26
Originally by: ElweSingollo
Err well as I was the target.....
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Lancer/Voogru_Damage.jpg
Which btw voogru asked me to post so people could see the damage I took... Voogru didn't use drones agaisnt me (not sure how much of a drone bay the mach has) but I would imagine any drones he did have would be less than the Curse that was pounding on me damage wise so lets see it still would have taken 6-7 mins to kill me.
both a phoon and domi can fit a full 5 heavy drones.
Heavy drones twice as much damage exactly, as medium drones. The Curse can fit 5 medium drones only, and has a single damage bonus to them. So a Typhoon will do 33% more damage with its drones than a curse does. A Dominix will do twice as much damage as a curse does with its drones. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Firane
Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:07:00 -
[205]
As has been stated before: Nanostabs are not the problem. Webifiers are the problem.
Increase range, slightly decrease effectivness. Introduce Light and Medium webifying drones.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:36:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Firane As has been stated before: Nanostabs are not the problem. Webifiers are the problem.
Increase range, slightly decrease effectivness. Introduce Light and Medium webifying drones.
LOL. You have no clue do you? Imagine a Taranis with two light web drones and some rails. What inty would be able to kill it? You can slow an inty down while staying outside the enemy inty web range and pound the crap out of it.
Same principle goes with cruisers. You don't need to be that fast, just faster than your webbed target. Inertial stabs and nanos need to be stacking nerfed, just like everything else, and both of them need to be combined in the stacking nerf. I.e. 2x nanos and 1x inertial stab has the same stacking penalty as 3x nanos.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer. |
Kusotarre
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:45:00 -
[207]
Nanobattleships are the best thing to happen to PVP in years.
Why?
People can't **** about, undocking and redocking and undocking nearly as much. They mess up, and they end up 60km off station, and that's a Good Thing.
Having a competent nano-BS pilot in gang can double the amount of fights you get on any random roaming op.
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ElweSingollo
The Vanyar Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.01.24 23:04:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 24/01/2007 21:59:26
Originally by: ElweSingollo
Err well as I was the target.....
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Lancer/Voogru_Damage.jpg
Which btw voogru asked me to post so people could see the damage I took... Voogru didn't use drones agaisnt me (not sure how much of a drone bay the mach has) but I would imagine any drones he did have would be less than the Curse that was pounding on me damage wise so lets see it still would have taken 6-7 mins to kill me.
both a phoon and domi can fit a full 5 heavy drones.
Heavy drones twice as much damage exactly, as medium drones. The Curse can fit 5 medium drones only, and has a single damage bonus to them. So a Typhoon will do 33% more damage with its drones than a curse does. A Dominix will do twice as much damage as a curse does with its drones.
Okay Domi clearly better than the phoon in the drone damage stakes Phoon v Curse drone damage wise Curse should do 75% of the damage the phoon does unless I misunderstand things because it gets an in built 50% bonus to drone damage when you fly it. Basically I don't understand your 33% from damage wise? Also a curse can fit 7 medium drones but loaunch only 5 I think you will find was what you wanted to say.
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Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.24 23:15:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Kusotarre People can't **** about, undocking and redocking and undocking nearly as much. They mess up, and they end up 60km off station, and that's a Good Thing.
Having a competent nano-BS pilot in gang can double the amount of fights you get on any random roaming op.
Agree so much.... but yet, making roleships useless is a very vert bad side effect.
Flying nanoship is lots of fun, I do it all the time, but it's a bit imba. And I still think nos is the primary reason for it.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.24 23:22:00 -
[210]
Originally by: ElweSingollo
Okay Domi clearly better than the phoon in the drone damage stakes Phoon v Curse drone damage wise Curse should do 75% of the damage the phoon does unless I misunderstand things because it gets an in built 50% bonus to drone damage when you fly it. Basically I don't understand your 33% is coming from damage wise? Also a curse can fit 7 medium drones but launch only 5 I think you will find was what you wanted to say.
In regards to the Dominix yes drone damage points will do a heck of a lot more but you loose any dps form siege or cruise launchers in the highs that the Phoon or Mach would have.
1.33/1 = 1/.75
Curses drones do 75% of the damage of a typhoons drones, or 25% less damage, same thing. Typhoons drones do 33% more damage than a curses drones, or 133% as much damage, same thing.
The quetion was "how much damage would a typhoon do compared to a cuse" and the answer is "33% more" becuase Elwe said "but I would imagine any drones he did have would be less than the Curse" when it would in fact be 33% more than that. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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