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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:05:50 -
[3991] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:sp you farm yourself isn't free (this is literally going to be the new "minerals i mine myself are free" **** isn't it?). you still need to plex the accounts/dual train those characters. Then whole I can define price
Dave Stark wrote:if some one asks you for skill packets as payment you can easily work out what that will cost you to obtain. if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". Is invalid. Because what you wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price So what is the "free time" of playing here? I assume only trial.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:11:43 -
[3992] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:General Lootit wrote:My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for training quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done. If you have run out of things to do then that is not the games fault but due to your own lack of imagination, sorry but it is just a weak and childish excuse. I have always had the opposite situation myself. Of course there are moments when you think I wish I had that skill to level V and such, but I've never been short of goals which I have yet to achieve. Broaden your horizons.
Quote:You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:12:51 -
[3993] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:sp you farm yourself isn't free (this is literally going to be the new "minerals i mine myself are free" **** isn't it?). you still need to plex the accounts/dual train those characters. Then whole I can define price Dave Stark wrote:if some one asks you for skill packets as payment you can easily work out what that will cost you to obtain. if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". Is invalid. Because what you wrote: Dave Stark wrote:by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price So what is the "free time" of playing here? I assume only trial.
if a power of 2 account gives you 6 months game time for 3 plex (i think that's correct?). then 3 of those months are "free" within that free time you can earn the 5m SP required to start extracting SP from your character. it's like 2.6 months to train 5m sp at max speed. obviously you will not be doing that as you need to train cybernetics V to get +5s so we'll call it 3 months for the sake of rounding.
after that you have 3 months of harvestable SP that cost you 3 plex, which is the same rate as you'll continue to harvest plex at. so if the power of 2 offer continues setting up an SP farm essentially becomes free.
tl;dr pay for 3 months game time, get 6 months. 3 of those months are free.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1771
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:14:51 -
[3994] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already. by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt). buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway. you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell.
You somehow think that goons et al won't work out the best level at which to charge people whilst having (now instantly perfect) market alts hoover up all SP packs in the hubs with the trillions they get from moons? They would be stupid not to.
They can afford to screw over the hisec (i.e. newbs) markets whilst giving the damn things away for free to alliance members. They already reimburse expensive ships, now they will be able to simply bring all alliance members up to perfect skills for any doctrine they choose in an instant. Oh, they'll have SP SRP too for those flying T3's. The hold of the existing alliances just gets tighter with this. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:17:52 -
[3995] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:tl;dr pay for 3 months game time, get 6 months. 3 of those months are free. It's not avaiable anymore, can't find it on account manager.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Vahligmarr
Tribal Core
4
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:19:28 -
[3996] - Quote
This makes the whole idea even more terrifying..... no matter what you call it....it smells like PtoW, and this message will be spread..... |
General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:22:12 -
[3997] - Quote
Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy
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Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:26:26 -
[3998] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already. by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt). buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway. you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell. You somehow think that goons et al won't work out the best level at which to charge people whilst having (now instantly perfect) market alts hoover up all SP packs in the hubs with the trillions they get from moons? They would be stupid not to. They can afford to screw over the hisec (i.e. newbs) markets whilst giving the damn things away for free to alliance members. They already reimburse expensive ships, now they will be able to simply bring all alliance members up to perfect skills for any doctrine they choose in an instant. Oh, they'll have SP SRP too for those flying T3's. The hold of the existing alliances just gets tighter with this.
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
i'll quote laz telraven from the meta show on 30/09/15 "100m sp is low" - i have lower than 100m SP and perfect mining skills - yet i can still fit in and fly any nullsec subcap doctrine i want. do you really think anyone but new players and poor people need these skill packets? |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:27:45 -
[3999] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Dave Stark wrote:tl;dr pay for 3 months game time, get 6 months. 3 of those months are free. It's not avaiable anymore, can't find it on account manager.
it's something they offer for a short time but it always comes back on. both my alts, made at separate times, were power of 2 alts.
it's not a permanent thing but when ti comes back you can take advantage of it. besides, it pays for itself. it costs you 3 plex, and you'll get 3 plex worth of SP to sell at the end. even if you never use it after setting it up you've always got it and it hasn't cost you a thing. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
143
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:32:18 -
[4000] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other."
Unfortunately it's not clearly described. These are some very broad philosophical arguments that one could used to support... well, a whole bunch of changes. I am fairly certain you did not come to decision to design the SP market lightly. There must be specific issues with the game that you want to address, and reasons why you believe SP market would be a good tool to do so. With the change of this magnitude, please be transparent with your player base. Ask for whatever permissions you need, and the tell us: why? |
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sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:33:43 -
[4001] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy
Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over
Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94
That means we win right CCP?! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1772
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:35:47 -
[4002] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:...
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
...
They don't have to be infinite, they simply buy up packets that undercut them and then sell them at the price they actually want to sell them at. They make more money than it costs to buy the packets. Infinite resources are not required, just basic marketing ability which I'm pretty sure they are way way above. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:36:18 -
[4003] - Quote
sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?!
elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things.
brb starting an SP farm.
as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion. |
sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:39:10 -
[4004] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion.
Oh, are you racing him?! |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:44:02 -
[4005] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
... They don't have to be infinite, they simply buy up packets that undercut them and then sell them at the price they actually want to sell them at. They make more money than it costs to buy the packets. Infinite resources are not required, just basic marketing ability which I'm pretty sure they are way way above.
to be honest, without knowing actual numbers there's no way to know if this is valid or not.
however they'd have to purchase every single packet. every single one, as every single packet will undercut them if they try and sell above cost price. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:44:51 -
[4006] - Quote
sixteen 64 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion. Oh, are you racing him?!
no, i'm pointing out if we're going by popular vote i better hurry up making that SP farm. this train has no brakes. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1772
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:46:36 -
[4007] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
... They don't have to be infinite, they simply buy up packets that undercut them and then sell them at the price they actually want to sell them at. They make more money than it costs to buy the packets. Infinite resources are not required, just basic marketing ability which I'm pretty sure they are way way above. to be honest, without knowing actual numbers there's no way to know if this is valid or not. however they'd have to purchase every single packet. every single one, as every single packet will undercut them if they try and sell above cost price.
Not necessarily, just enough to control the market. Besides you just described how groups perform market warfare right now so why would something as valuable as SP be any different? In fact they may well drop other areas of interest if they had to just to make sure they control something so fundamental to peoples abilities as a pilot. Again it would be stupid not to. |
sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:51:18 -
[4008] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion. Oh, are you racing him?! no, i'm pointing out if we're going by popular vote i better hurry up making that SP farm. this train has no brakes.
Oh, I see, this elise guy has 500 likes! and not 500 posts as I thought you meant, damn and 3 gold stars...
New rule, Likes only count from the official forums where only subbed guys & girls can post!
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Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:52:26 -
[4009] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:...
they can charge any price they want - but ANYONE can undercut them if they sell above cost price. while goon's pockets are deep they are not infinite.
... They don't have to be infinite, they simply buy up packets that undercut them and then sell them at the price they actually want to sell them at. They make more money than it costs to buy the packets. Infinite resources are not required, just basic marketing ability which I'm pretty sure they are way way above. to be honest, without knowing actual numbers there's no way to know if this is valid or not. however they'd have to purchase every single packet. every single one, as every single packet will undercut them if they try and sell above cost price. Not necessarily, just enough to control the market. Besides you just described how groups perform market warfare right now so why would something as valuable as SP be any different? In fact they may well drop other areas of interest if they had to just to make sure they control something so fundamental to peoples abilities as a pilot. Again it would be stupid not to.
because supply can be controlled in other markets, i guess is why it'd be different. anyone can start as many farms as they want, for no cost if power of 2 is running.
if goons are going to buy up any packet worth more than cost price then everyone's just going to go and suck on that teat. if goons are just going to start handing out isk like that, then i'll jump on that crazy train. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
250
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:53:36 -
[4010] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm.
I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp*
Who knew.
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Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:53:41 -
[4011] - Quote
sixteen 64 wrote:Oh, I see, this elise guy has 500 likes! and not 500 posts as I thought you meant, damn and 3 gold stars... New rule, Likes only count from the official forums where only subbed guys & girls can post!
if goons can get multiple people on to the CSM by telling people who to vote for (all your own fault for not voting, people), i sincerely doubt outvoting ripard '90 likes' teg will be difficult. |
Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:54:36 -
[4012] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm. I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp* Who knew.
if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that.
who knew? (oh right, everyone knew) |
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
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Posted - 2015.10.20 11:02:43 -
[4013] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion.
you never gave a reply to my question to which i was awaiting a response to:
Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.
Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
444
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:03:49 -
[4014] - Quote
Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
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Dave Stark
7621
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Posted - 2015.10.20 11:08:42 -
[4015] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:sixteen 64 wrote:General Lootit wrote:Congrats everyone with hitting 200 page of feedback thread Devs must be happy Except 100 pages is this Dave guy, repeating himself over and over Anyways, I think we should just have a old fashioned vote, CCP have 23 likes, and this Ripard guy has 94 That means we win right CCP?! elise has over 500 on reddit last i checked and 3 of those gold star things. brb starting an SP farm. as you can see from the last few pages - a discussion is taking place. if you have an issue with me being the one presenting a counterpoint to every point made then *shrug* that's on you. the ISDs have been actively removing any rule breaking posts so what's left is all relevant and pertinent to the discussion. you never gave a reply to my question to which i was awaiting a response to: Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located. Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.
what question? |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
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Posted - 2015.10.20 11:09:16 -
[4016] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here. Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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darkchild's corpse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
78
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Posted - 2015.10.20 11:13:53 -
[4017] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here. Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.
i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about.
Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
8
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Posted - 2015.10.20 11:14:22 -
[4018] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained in station and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.
Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.
It's in favor of old fashion spying when you need gather information not from machines but from people. I think it defenetly good for social interections. |
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2015.10.20 11:17:24 -
[4019] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:brb starting an SP farm. I thought you said you weren't really that interested in it, and now you're saying you want it for personal profits? *gasp* Who knew. if i wanted to sell SP for isk, i can already do it. this idea doesn't enable that. who knew? (oh right, everyone knew)
The current Charactar Bazaar works.
1.) Your not directly selling SP as an individual item, the account is 1 package. It takes time to develop.
Example 1: I skill 1 character to sell on the bazaar, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP to sell as an account.
2.) If you just sell SP indiviually, you could easy make 30 accounts and sell the SP over time. It takes a significant amount of time LESS than the above option to achieve higher SP values.
Example 2: I skill 30 Characters to sell the SP on the market, it takes me 2 years and I gain 48MSP per character.
I have an interest in a client that has made a significant amount of ISK in EVE, he buys 5x 48MSP= 240M SP, he then effectively MAXES out his account of SP. You still have 25x 48M SP remaining, all covering another 5 MAXED accounts.
Thats 6 Accounts that have been maxed in 2 Years!!!
When usually, it would take 12+ Years to Max 1 account!
3.) It would be ALOT quicker to MAX your account SP, In a short period EVERYONE will be Maxed out SP = boring game, everyone is equal, everyone can do everything, bored, nothing is unique, EVE is no longer a Sandbox game. Bye.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1772
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Posted - 2015.10.20 11:18:40 -
[4020] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here. Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas. i guess CCP knew how this discussion would go and just want to know what changes they have to make that a little more ppl are ok with it. i mean, CCP are not a bunch of idiots... they had to know what kind of feature they were talking about.
They probably had two ideas for how to jigger with SP accrual and put the worst one up so that people are happy when they 'revisit' the idea and put forward the less bad one :D |
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