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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
428
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:05:52 -
[271] - Quote
I'm very much against the idea, and I've already posted my concerns (and how I plan on abusing this) earlier. I will, however, also offer my own opinions on balancing it, in case it's going to go through regardless.
The SP loss is too low, and it allows usage for people with too much SP. Reduce the SP gained from the packs by 20% (of the max) every 5 mil SP.
0 to 5 mil would receive the full 500k. 5 to 10 mil would receive 400k. 10 to 15 mil would receive 300k. 15 to 20 mil would receive 200k. 20 to 25 mil would receive 100k. Over 25 mil should not be able to inject them.
(I would actually have made it even more restrictive, dropping by 100k every 2 mil SP, and not gaining anything after 10 mil, but I figured that was going to be "too restrictive" considering the current tier consideration laid out in the dev blog.)
You can already create some very solid characters with 25 mil, and a lot of high-return alts can be made for 10 mil. People already use accounts to create and sell characters for the Bazaar. Instead of being sold and transferred, these chars will now only become SP mules, pumping out a new SP pack every 8 days.
I am still against the idea in its entirety.
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Mane Frehm
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
50
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:06:22 -
[272] - Quote
My initial reaction was very negative (full disclosure - this impacts me personally), but after thinking about it for a while I had the following thoughts:
1. The devblog talks about problems with the character bazaar and then somehow leaps to the conclusion that we need a method to transfer skillpoints from 1 character to another. The solution presented does not address the identified problem! If there are problems with the character bazaar, then identify and address those, (although in my opinion it is a classic information market where those with better information make profits from those with less).
2. Many others in this thread have already identified issues with characters suddenly being differently capable then expected, or the potential for abuse. These are valid concerns.
3. This does strike me as someones clever idea for extracting money from an older/declining player base. CCP has the right to run its game as it pleases, but I suggest to you this has the potential to greatly accelerate the current decline.
One of the earlier posters in this thread stated "I've told people that eve is about choices, community, and consequences." Very well said, Moraguth.
I would like to add to that by saying that characters are the reflection of those choices, communities and consequences. Each character has a history and a story, and once you allow skillpoints to move between characters you run the risk of destroying that. Where will the next Chribba come from if any character can instantly be capable of anything? What about the next great solo pilot, pirate queen or alliance leader? Characters are more than just their current owners, and you don't need to be a role player to see this.
In conclusion - I do think this is a bad idea; please don't do it. |
Tzu Wu
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
47
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:06:26 -
[273] - Quote
Shade Alidiana wrote:Strongly disapprove. I think reasons are obvious. Didn't read any of the topic, though.
Then you have probably no idea why you don't like this. The SP isn't created out of thin air, it's traded from a character that already has it. You should probably read it so you can formulate an actual meaningful opinion. |
IBFroggy Sukarala
Predator Ewoks Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:06:40 -
[274] - Quote
Pay to win? Great! I`m out! |
Banedon Runestar
Valor Evolved Order of Allied Knights
2
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:07:40 -
[275] - Quote
Absolutely not.
First, the economics are terrible. At the cost of 2 PLEX per 500,00 SP, you're not going to get any takers. That's 2B+ ISK and climbing everyday, the Character Bazaar isn't nearly so expensive.
Second, have you forgotten the threadnoughts and player reaction to Incarna? Then you explicitly promised that there would be no direct ISK for SP options and this is walking back on that promise.
Third, Eve is a game about choices, and those choices having consequences. Why put in shortcuts for undoing early choices? What's next, selling your NPC faction and NPC corp standings for ISK? Bribe CONCORD to raise your sec status to whatever you want? People make mistakes, that's how they learn. In Eve this usually leaves some kind of mark on your character sheet, whether its a skill learned, or standing altered. This should not be in any way removed, short-circuited, or avoided.
Finally, while it may marginally help newbie pilots, it can and will be abused. Rich players buying bazaar characters to strip their SPs. Or they create some of the new higher SP alts, burn some PLEX to train them up a month or two, then burn off the SP and add to the main.
This is Eve, and economic and temporal efficiency is useful. However, if the means (however inefficient) exist to push a limit, it will be pushed to it's extreme. Sure you don't need deadspace mods on a Pirate faction ship to run level 4's, they're exorbitantly expensive, but people do it all the time. ISK for SPs will be no different. |
ForceM
POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem
41
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:07:49 -
[276] - Quote
I can be very articulate with what my oppinion about this is.
TBH i rather say it in 2 words as most other already elaborated on details.
HELL NO!!! |
Drilla
Lockstock. Dead Terrorists
14
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:08:13 -
[277] - Quote
Querns wrote:Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
Because every time it's made more accessible it has increased the userbase right? That's why there are more online now than 5 years ago right? Correlation is not causation.
If you understood EVE and had played it long enough, you (and CCP) would know the only thing that brings in new players and retains them in any significant numbers are vets. Penalizing vets are just plain stupid.
You can put all the makeup on the pig you want, it's still a pig - vets bring the sandbox to life and that is what retains the new players.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2701
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:08:13 -
[278] - Quote
Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Famous last words.
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible! As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for. Naivety is a bad thing for a business. And as I've said, correlation is not causation. Nor does correlation exclude causation.
And this idea is terrible. Not "$1000 jeans" or "~18 months~" terrible, but pretty high up there. |
BogWopit
Star Frontiers Brotherhood of Spacers
16
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:08:37 -
[279] - Quote
No.
It removes the journey you take as you craft your skills.
You set a sight on being able to fly X ship with X fittings, you plan your skills, you play with EFT or Pyfa and get the fit just so, then you wait. The feeling of satisfaction you get from having spent that time training is lost when you can simply buy the skills.
The argument of pay2win is a little invalid as others have pointed out. If you are IRL rich you can simply plex up and buy a toon from the bazaar, so I'll not rely on that as an argument. However what people can buy from the bazarr is the result of other peoples actions and decisions, not tailor made toons that will meet the requirements exactly.
What this system does is allow people to forgo the consequence of their decisions by allowing you take back that which they have done wrong in the past.
If you take this toon as an example, I have been meticulous in its skill tree, it has taken me over 8 years to get here, to allow a way of someone reaching the same state by having a decent credit card is downright infuriating.
I understand that business is business and money has to be made, but in this instance the trade off is devaluing existing players by attacking the only thing we have that is worth something in this game....time. The time we as players have spent in this world, the time we have invested in building our toons skills, the time we have put into skilling in all different directions would become something which can be bought and sold.
Aside from the above I feel that it would make eve a very bland place where alliances could just instruct you to have your skills in x y and z, where each balance pass that creates a new flavour of the month ship is nothing more than a money grabbing exercise and actually becomes something which is no longer unintentional.
For shame.
B
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
332
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:09:47 -
[280] - Quote
IBFroggy Sukarala wrote:Pay to win? Great! I`m out!
The skillpool of EVE is not getting bigger, it stays the same, how is this pay to win?
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3501
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:10:00 -
[281] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:OK, I've calmed down slightly. Let's give you guys some specific feedback so that you understand what a ******* terrible idea this is.
I have an alt I bought on the bazaar years ago. He has 82 million SP. Much of it is focused on mining and reprocessing, skills I haven't used in years. As long as I'm a whale...
Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 Transneural Skill Extractors. Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP. Step 3: Consume 25 of them myself to bring myself to 50 million SP, dumping my useless SP and focusing this alt on incursion-running. Step 4: Sell 59 Transneural Skill Packets on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.
And that doesn't even get into the matter of using those 84 Packets to more or less instantly jump a new character from 0 to 40 million SP. Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless.
Again, I can do these things as long as I'm a whale and pump a ton of money into CCP for the 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.
Am I missing anything here? Who in God's name thought this was a good idea? Can we sell them to Riot?
Okay, I'm wondering why the character bazaar has not drawn your ire long ago?
Selling that character would probably net you 16 billion ISK. Probably about the same as you'll be able to get for 59 skill packets. If you have a ton of ISK in game you can buy an incursion runner on the character bazaar. If you have a ton RL money you can buy PLEX, sell them for ISK and then...buy that incursion runner. Buy some extra PLEX and you'll have a ton of ISK too.
I'm not defending the idea here, but dude....you are starting to sound hysterical.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
183
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:10:17 -
[282] - Quote
I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.
I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.
What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine. |
SFX Bladerunner
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
2
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:10:33 -
[283] - Quote
This is a bad idea.
I am happy with EVE being a game with little to no rules in terms of player conduct. I can accept the fact that some dude who's only been playing for a few months can make more money than me in a days work of scamming and getting lucky than I do in a years time. I can even accept the fact that people who've gotten super rich to the point of measuring their networth in trillions of isk can just buy toons with any amount of SP to them and do whatever with them.
This however, I cannot accept. While I know that EVE is a -skills- based game and your actual amount of SP isn't indicative of your ability to be successful in EVE, the simplicity that you propose in converting ISK to SP for your -already existing- character(s) is staggeringly game breaking.
I do not condone this feature and hereby would like to give my unconditional vote AGAINST the ability to extract/inject SP points. SP points should be passively earned over time, period.
The idea of an in-game character bazaar however, where you can put your toons up for sale and automatically link their relevant information like eveboard only ingame without mucking about on websites and with the ability to filter/select/sort from the characterbazaar ingame would be AMAZING.
I can imagine myself opening the characterbazaar, selecting a bunch of skills and levels that are mandatory and a few that are desired and then filtering the offerings on that sorted by price/SP.... Being able to just place a bid on them or directly purchase them by selecting the Buyout option (all optional things for the seller to set ofc.)...
Make THAT happen, and make us all happy. if you implement THAT properly, we will applaud you and commend you for it. If you make this SP for ISK thing, nobody is going to like you. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2012
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:10:48 -
[284] - Quote
Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:Drilla wrote:Querns wrote:
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
Because every time it's made more accessible it has increased the userbase right? That's why there are more online now than 5 years ago right? Correlation is not causation. If you understood EVE and had played it long enough, you (and CCP) would know the only thing that brings in new players and retains them in any significant numbers are vets. Penalizing vets are just plain stupid. You can put all the makeup on the pig you want, it's still a pig - vets bring the sandbox to life and that is what retains the new players. How does the new system "penalize vets"?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Kilian Katar
Tenth Company
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:11:07 -
[285] - Quote
Gigiarc wrote:This idea is actually extremely good. Excellent work on CCP's part.
I cannot take you seriously, for three reasons:
1) that face 2) you are a goon 3) you agree with ccp... |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2012
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:11:58 -
[286] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Famous last words.
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible! As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for. Naivety is a bad thing for a business. And as I've said, correlation is not causation. Nor does correlation exclude causation. Sure, but the burden of proof is on the person who says "X happened, therefore the fact that Y also happened shows a direct relationship."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Stable Cusp
Quintec Wormhole Exploration
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:11:59 -
[287] - Quote
Please, no. And please don't try to disguise this as a form of character trading.
Character trading offers engaging options for players. You can carefully craft a product, and reap the benefits of accurately reading the market. Carefully craft, including name, skills, standings, and reputation within the community. In its own way, developing a character for sale is not so different from any other industry.
Anonymizing skill points, so I can take all those Mining Barge or Research Project Management levels and turn them into the just-released, new ship skill completely eliminates that.
If you think the problem is skillpoints holding people back, then remove skills. I don't think that's the issue though. I can't tell you how many people I've seen post, excitedly, in chats "X hours until I can fly [ship]" Those people have spent days or weeks anticipating their new ability, like a kid anticipating Christmas. That bit of knowing something is out there, but just a little out of your reach, is an incredible motivator. If you let any new player just come in and buy enough skills to fly a carrier or a titan - that is not a player who's going to engage and stick around. |
Mynxee
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
212
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:12:07 -
[288] - Quote
It's almost like you're trying to turn skill training into some weird market mini game. Or wondering how you're going to avoid screams of despair due to some planned elimination of skills that people have spent considerable time training already. Or perhaps you're just trying to milk more cash from new players desperate to "catch up".
I am strongly opposed to any change that would let characters sell what amounts to "skillrights" to other characters for reasons stated by Chribba, Ripard Teg and others in earlier comments. An important and unique feature of EVE is the sense of investment. SP as a result of training choices are a huge part of that. Besides being unnecessarily complicated, the proposed system is likely to cheapen that sense investment and could backfire with regard to how much value people would attach to their characters under such a system. When people feel less invested and characters can just be mindlessly churned, they won't get attached to their characters and thus no real emotional investment in their in-game identity.
What is a potentially reasonable alternative to address skill training "mistakes" or never-gonna-use-em-again skillpoints would be a very limited capability for a character to draw a small % of existing skillpoints into a pool that could then be reallocated for other skills for THEMSELVES ONLY. At least that would still have some consequences attached to it for that character. Any such thing should always be discernible via API keys and should be expensive to perform and only allowed once in a blue moon.
There are also better ways to support new players in "catching up", one of which is just bite the damn bullet and start them with a million SPs, some allocated to basic support skills and some unallocated. I started playing when characters began with 900K allocated SP; while I recall certain frustrations in not being able to fly certain ships for awhile, I never felt particularly crippled and certainly was able to enjoy fleets with friends from pretty much the get-go. You could also do a LOT more to aid new players in making more informed early skill training choices by providing more explanatory info in skill descriptions about a skill's use, its general priority in the big picture, and complementary skills that make sense to train in a linear or alternating sequence.
tl;dr The dev blog's proposed idea is ripe for exploitation and cheapens that very important sense of investment in a character that helps new players feel committed to the game.
Lost in space, looking for sigs...
Blog: Outlaw Insouciant
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2012
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:12:56 -
[289] - Quote
Banedon Runestar wrote: First, the economics are terrible. At the cost of 2 PLEX per 500,00 SP, you're not going to get any takers. That's 2B+ ISK and climbing everyday, the Character Bazaar isn't nearly so expensive.
CCP has not yet set the price of the skill extractors. It will probably be quite a bit cheaper than 2 PLEX.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Seraphina Sazas
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:13:26 -
[290] - Quote
Pay to win. Bad idea, don't do it. |
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Jon Hellguard
X-COM
41
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:14:32 -
[291] - Quote
Drilla wrote:The only way this could remotely be a good idea was if you could only transfer SP internally in your account and a character that has received SP can never be transferred off the account.
That will allow people to create specialized alts instead of having all SP on one char/queue.
Nope, with dual char skilltraining already in place you could possibly train 3 characters on one account and boost just one with the XP from the other. That is exactly how one would pay to get XP. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2012
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:14:50 -
[292] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.
I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.
What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine. Unfortunately, this is not possible.
Right now, affecting a character transfer causes 2 PLEX to be removed from CCP's Liabilities sheet and resolved. Introduction of skill extractors without at least attempting to mirror this realization of liabilities is bad for business. There's absolutely no chance they will be introduced without an associated PLEX/Aurum cost.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3501
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:15:01 -
[293] - Quote
IBFroggy Sukarala wrote:Pay to win? Great! I`m out!
You never knew about the character bazaar or how you can buy PLEX with RL money then convert the PLEX into ISK? Really?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Kyria Stenory
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:16:19 -
[294] - Quote
Yey, it's time to train "useless skills" on all my accounts, and every 2-3 month i'll get 1m SP faster....
Seriously, no. No way. I really hope it'll never exist.
Seraphina Sazas wrote:Pay to win. Bad idea, don't do it. How are you going to "win" only with SP gain ? ^^ |
General Twitch
Alwar Fleet Alwar Alliance
0
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:16:22 -
[295] - Quote
I like this idea.
Right now I can buy a character with a bunch of SP. I can buy +5 implants and increase my SP accumulation rate. This would be a third option to accomplish the same goals. I know players who will not undock because of their expensive implants and potential lost training time toward specific goals. Allowing players to accomplish these goals in a more expensive but faster way would lead to more people undocking. Ive heard constant complaints about risk aversion due to implants, lack of content and painfully long training times, often from old players. This plan can help address (not fix) some of these issues. I hope more experienced players will honestly think about this and provide constructive feedback so an SP system like this can be implemented.
PS please, please stop with the RIP eve stuff. It has chased multiple people I know IRL away from this amazing game. That's content you would have had for the last year that the doomsayers have chased away.
Twitch
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
332
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:16:28 -
[296] - Quote
Insidious wrote:plex prices will be 4billion soon : ))))))
As long that the PLEX prices do not show an unhealthy sprint up or down CCP does not matter, they won't interfere. Nothing new, move along people, move along.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
36
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:16:47 -
[297] - Quote
No. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2017
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:17:04 -
[298] - Quote
Mynxee wrote:It's almost like you're trying to turn skill training into some weird market mini game. Or wondering how you're going to avoid screams of despair due to some planned elimination of skills that people have spent considerable time training already. Or perhaps you're just trying to milk more cash from new players desperate to "catch up".
Skill training is already a market "minigame." Visit the character bazaar for more details. I, personally, keep some of my accounts isk neutral by training pilots specifically to sell on the character bazaar.
Mynxee wrote: "skillrights"
This is a good phrase.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1691
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:17:30 -
[299] - Quote
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Iosue
Empyrean Guard Tactical Narcotics Team
289
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:17:33 -
[300] - Quote
I do not like this proposal.
Let me elaborate. IRL, time is one of the most valuable commodities. ItGÇÖs one of the few things you can't buy more of. I like that EVE has kept consistent with this reality through the years. Time in EVE boils down to SP generation and has always been the one of the more difficult limitations to work around. Sure you can go to the Bazaar and purchase a new char that fits generally into your game plan. But it wonGÇÖt be perfect; youGÇÖll have to do some additional work, end up getting more that you wanted, have to deal with a sordid past or have to wait until that right build comes along. Point being, there are drawbacks that you have to accept to get what you want.
I think pretty much everyone agrees, ISK is easy to come by in this game. Creating a drawback in the form of ISK is pretty meaningless. Based on the proposed implementation, it feels as though there will be no downside to buying or selling SP. YouGÇÖll be free to build reasonably high SP characters without having to be invested in the game or its community. This also makes choosing a career path less of a commitment. It removes the risk from choosing and pursuing a given profession because with a little ISK I can be anything else in a few moments.
This may sound silly, but I view my SP (which is in excess of 100M) as a sort of badge indicating my commitment to this game and community. ItGÇÖs the one aspect of the game that has encouraged me to keep my accounts subbed and generating SP. Because I know I canGÇÖt just go to the market and buy SP, I keep my accounts subbed even when IGÇÖm not actively playing. This proposal turns that upside down. Why bother keeping my accounts continually subbed, when I know I can just buy more SP on a whim? Granted it will come at a cost, but whatGÇÖs a few billion ISK?? The bazaar doesnGÇÖt allow this kind of exchange and shouldnGÇÖt imo.
That being said, there are certainly improvements that can be made to facility the exchange of characters. It would be nice to see an in game market for this and the ability to rename characters, but please reconsider allowing the exchange of SP. It seems like an easy fix on the surface, but IGÇÖm concerned about the lasting impacts it will have on the game and community as a whole. |
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