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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Arla Sarain
512
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:48:07 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? The damage reduction is largely trivial in comparison to the random damage range. Won't even notice it. |
Krista von Peyote
Peaceful Industrial Realm
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:48:32 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.
First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes:
-1 mid slot, +1 low slot Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000 Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s Agility going from .52 to .565 Power grid lowered from 780 to 740 Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor.
Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows:
Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%)
Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%)
And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.
We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.
Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!
Those Ishtar changes are fairly big, napkin math tells me post-nerf ishtar will have 50 PG less than current with max skills (925 vs 975) while having more lowslots to fill. It still has far too much fitting, I think the rarely-used turret hardpoints should be removed completely or dropped to 1 and the fitting be adjusted accordingly. The loss of a mid won't completely kill shield ishtars in fleets but it will hurt them a lot which is good. They'll no longer be able to fit 2 LSEs + 2 resist mods which severely impacts their available buffer, however the extra low adds a lot of options while their superlative potential for damage mitigation with 100mn Afterburners is barely changed by the speed drop. Not sure about the ramifications for fleet armor Ishtars but those were never really in vogue like shield fits were, although extra low to play with is very strong. I think the extra low may make the Ishtar even stronger in a small gang or solo environment which is frankly worrying, and it will only help the ship remain the #1 PVE ship of choice.
DDA changes are nice but they don't really change the major problems with drones (unparalleled application rather than sheer raw damage), just make the ships using them marginally less effective. I doubt this will unseat Tristans or Vexors as the #1 solo t1 ships.
Tempest buff seems significant but higher paper DPS is fairly inconsequential considering the help it needs to apply it, but it's definitely a start down the road to relevance for battleships. |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
557
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:50:04 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix
http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png
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Cr Turist
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
56
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:50:10 -
[34] - Quote
and to not buff the TFI is dumb. |
Alexander McKeon
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
95
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:51:52 -
[35] - Quote
Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.
Edit: for the sake of completeness regarding weapon size vs. hull size, I'll note that ABCs were specifically designed with design sacrifices (notably tank) in mind to compensate for their oversized guns, which i find a reasonable exception. Those hulls are balanced and have their uses, but do not distrort the meta to the point you're either flying Ishtars, or flying a fleet designed to counter Ishtars. |
Bunka en Daire
The Charlatans
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:52:25 -
[36] - Quote
I want relocating of all my drone SP's, i want to nerf my chars drone skills. Pls help me. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1866
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:52:32 -
[37] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png
This is sick
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Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
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Skydott
Burnin plasma ball
28
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:53:33 -
[38] - Quote
At this patch will you give drone asist ability to shoot in pvp in low sec ? |
l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
1234
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:53:47 -
[39] - Quote
Cr Turist wrote:and to not buff the TFI is dumb. See post #17 Looks like it will get a buff.
Or what do you mean?
German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
5128
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:58:41 -
[40] - Quote
Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.
This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
@ccp_rise
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Dirk Morbho
Mindstar Technology Get Off My Lawn
52
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:58:57 -
[41] - Quote
Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars.
Left empty-handed.
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Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2015.06.22 15:59:05 -
[42] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Meh. I was expecting a removal of sentries bonuses from the Ishtar, just saying. You're going in the nice direction but you're just chipping away little bits here and there at the Ishtar without making substantial changes. A slower Ishtar isn't any less broken and is less fun to fly. And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single ship in the class. Were they really all OP? First, off chipping away at a strong ship is great way to balance things. It does not provide immediate resolution to the problem but it is a better approach to balance then big sweeping changes that break a ship. Small changes have cumulative effects, and not over nerfing and thus crippling one of the most flown ships is a good way to keep customers happy.
Yes drone boats are leaders in almost every category. A small nerf to them across the board is not unexpected, and I am a drone boat pilot. I will miss the DPS I am losing on my Worm, Gila, VNI, Rattlesnake, Dominix, and my Ishtar. But I was drawn to these ships for various reasons including they were very good dps ships with good survivability. Thankfully the Gurista ships caused me to also train missiles and those are now seeing a positive boost. Though for all practical purposes I won't be using the new missile mods on my Worm or Gila. So they take a net nerf, which for the power they had, is not game breaking.
I'd rather keep all the power of the DDA and just have my Ishtar nerfed to satisfy the masses, but once the Ishtar is fixed, people will complain even more about the other drone boats that are PvE leaders and still very strong in PvP. This proactive DDA nerf helps bring all those ships down a small amount, and hopefully will be enough so spare them any other nerf. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
690
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:00:49 -
[43] - Quote
While you are at it, could you increase the missile damage bonus on the Rattlesnake by a tad so the offset isn't so bad please? Thank you!
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1433
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:01:57 -
[44] - Quote
Honestly, I'd let the slot change pan out a bit before nerfing DDA.
I really think the slot change might be enough. |
Jason Baros
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
0
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:02:17 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar. + every other ship that equips DDA's
FTFY
But seriously if you want to nerf the Ishtars you need to do something about their capability of using sentries. Ishtars dropping heavies in a big fleet fight is not OP and is very easily to deal with. Ishtars dropping sentries means the ishtars just stay 100Km from their prey and destroy it as long as their sentries are withing range.
Please stop balancing the game with a seldge hammer and start looking at what causes ships to be OP. The medium rail nerf hit not only tengus but EVERY single cruiser that uses hybrids. |
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:03:41 -
[46] - Quote
Dirk Morbho wrote:Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars. Left empty-handed. You had very misguided hopes. Removal of Sentries from any drone ship removes that ships ability for ranged combat. I don't expect to see Sentries removed from any drone ship until a replacement to them is also introduced. |
battle Barviainen
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:05:03 -
[47] - Quote
Removing the midslot will not make it realy that less used, you need to remove the sentry's from the ishtar and let it keep the midslot and let it keep the speed + pwg nerf |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
310
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:05:07 -
[48] - Quote
+1 Rise.
-1 midslot is going to impact the dominant shield Ishtar significantly. I imagine the hamsters are also rejoicing. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
739
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:05:50 -
[49] - Quote
Xaxaxa.
Ishtar still not fixed.
Dirk Morbho wrote:Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars. Left empty-handed.
Yeah, it's nbd that even the Eagle can't reach those DPS levels at that kind of range.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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NinjaTurtle
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
92
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:06:24 -
[50] - Quote
just gunna take stabs at the ishtar till you figure it out huh lol even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time
I do things.
http://declarationsofwar.com
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2914
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:06:51 -
[51] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: First of all, the Ishtar.
-1 mid slot, +1 low slot This is something that some of us were suggesting from the first set of balance changes of the Ishtar. Glad to see if finally happened. +1
CCP Rise wrote: Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers
Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%) Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%)
Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%) Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%) Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%) Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%) Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%)
Knee jerking reaction was rage, but I calmed down a little bit and looking at it, it is not that bad and drone ships are in a powerful position and this will not hurt them all too much so a reluctant +1 for this also.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Igor Nappi
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
124
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:07:10 -
[52] - Quote
I think the DDA nerf is way overdue. Better late than never, though.
Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1868
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:08:00 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries.
Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal.
They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state.
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
740
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:08:31 -
[54] - Quote
Bunka en Daire wrote:Why u just dont delete drone boats from game??? Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing.
Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS?
Calm down, dron user.
DDAs were & still are OP, considering that the base drone attributes were already competitive prior to their introduction.
Altrue wrote:CCP Rise wrote:This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries. Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal. They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state.
Double dron bonuses everyday.
On top of a battleship weapons system on a cruiser hull with t2 resists.
Gobbi pls
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
1234
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:08:39 -
[55] - Quote
Jason Baros wrote: Please stop balancing the game with a seldge hammer and start looking at what causes ships to be OP. The medium rail nerf hit not only tengus but EVERY single cruiser that uses hybrids.
The other rail ships where (or still are?) also super strong. A rail nerv was needed. Just as a drone nerv is needed. Not sure if DDA is the right way to do it, but it's something.
Not just the Ishtar is the problem.
German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com
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Gorski Car
630
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:10:23 -
[56] - Quote
Another great round of changes. DDAS have been way too strong for a long time and drone ships tend to be the strongest in every single ship class.
Tempest buff is good and you know I like it Rise
Collect this post
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Skydott
Burnin plasma ball
28
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:11:01 -
[57] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. Or you can make light/medium/large/CAPITAL sentry drones sizes. with equal stats and damage. (No siege sentry moros ) |
Canon Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:11:07 -
[58] - Quote
The DDA nerf is fair, but the slot change is not very desirable. Because now it is almost impossible to use shield tank, and this is also the same idea of Vexor Navy Issue(Only the drone bay different). You should just keep the slot location. |
Gremk
The Red Island Foundation Shadow Cartel
18
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:11:19 -
[59] - Quote
At first I was slightly against the DDA change but I think this is actually going to be a good change. I think you should consider giving the Ishtar a slight bonus to hybrids in some way to really turn it into a heavy brawler and just be done with sentries on the Ishtar.
I think there should be some consideration as to how the DDA will indirectly impact supers though... I think it'll be a good change for all other drone boats though.
The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible.
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1868
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Posted - 2015.06.22 16:12:01 -
[60] - Quote
Beyond the obvious ENORMOUS Ishtar balance issues (ultimate ship for PvP AND PvE in most situations anyone?), the question of drone balance in general begs to be asked.
I wish there was a counter as easy as firewalling for drones, because they are sure as hell getting out of hand atm. I'm sure you're communicating damage stats between devs, and Fozzie just announced that drone boats ships are top damage for Frigates AND Pirate Frigates AND Cruisers AND Navy Cruisers AND Heavy Assault Cruisers AND Battleships.
At this stage refusing to do something substantial is not bad judgment, it is clearly turning a blind eye voluntarily.
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
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