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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Athraws
Rising Thunder
7
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:23:10 -
[301] - Quote
Personally I feel a good move toward handling the situation is to simply swap the drone bays of the Ishtar and the Eos.
I think the Eos is extremely weak in its current form. It is crippled by a 250m3 drone bay (on a ship with extensive bonuses for heavy drones). Meanwhile, the Ishtar flits around battlefields, abandoning and dropping new sentries with near impunity.
If the Ishtar's bay was dropped to 250m3, and the Eos's buffed to 375m3, I believe this would be a step in the right direction.
This would reward players who wished to use the Eos in combat, as they would be better able to carry multiple flights of drones to adapt to their situation. The Ishtar, in turn, would lose some of it's staying power, forcing pilots who wanted to drop and abandon drones to make more difficult choices, a proper exchange for their power and projection.
To be frank, I think the entire roles of the Ishtar and Eos should be swapped, but that may be a bit more difficult. It would necessitate swapping the Ishtar's drone control range bonus for something more appropriate, and probably a deeper look into how the 'new' Eos would fit into the Ishtar's current role. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
31940
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:29:08 -
[302] - Quote
Drones are like bombs for being odd weapons. Their platforms are going to look weird, especially if you are going to keep touching the hull to adjust for the weapon, based on usage. I think you would need to make it a glass Dominix before you see the results you want. By that I mean 1/4 the EHP of a Dominix (or close to it) to compensate for the Ishtar's sig radius advantage.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Trajan Unknown
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
58
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:45:56 -
[303] - Quote
I don-Št get why you CCP don-Št remove sentries from everything below a fricking battlecruiser or maybe even battleship. Let the Ishtard be a crazy strong droneboat just not with sentries. From what I have seen in these sentry slugfests speed was no problem neither was tank. You simply can-Št reach the Ishtars at all in most cases. So even a slow less tanky Ishtar would be more or less the same as the one before. Just listen to the people that understand the game pretty damn well and give you the right input - not talking about myself I am just re posting the stuff the people that know it tell every single time balance changes are discussed. |
Madrax573
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:46:32 -
[304] - Quote
Why can drone ships with big bays and large bandwidth use 'up-sized' drones?
What other ships (Apart from bombers) effectively use up-sized weapon systems?
That is the problem. The Ishtar is built with the ability to use an unbalanced sized weapon system without any major downsides for doing so. It is inherently unbalanced and little tweaks here and there won't 'fix' it. |
HiddenPorpoise
Expendable Miscreants
367
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:57:07 -
[305] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Wow, it only took you 5 years to admit that drones and Ishtars are broken.
Wait for it.....
Wait for it.....
I ******* TOLD YOU SO. Maybe they ignored you because the mod they're nerfing isn't five years old. |
Fenrir Hammer
The Northern J3WS Fidelas Constans
1
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Posted - 2015.06.23 06:06:27 -
[306] - Quote
I agree with the ishtar nerf but I really have a hard time likeing the DDA nerf.
I dont think a whole weapon system wide nerf is good. Maybe tone down the DDA nerf?
Maybe just nerf t2 DDA ans keep the other meta levels the same. I mean that would give a more incentive to use faction mods and who doesnt like dank kill mails.
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Viruk Johnny
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
19
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Posted - 2015.06.23 06:31:45 -
[307] - Quote
Madrax573 wrote:Why can drone ships with big bays and large bandwidth use 'up-sized' drones?
What other ships (Apart from bombers) effectively use up-sized weapon systems?
That is the problem. The Ishtar is built with the ability to use an unbalanced sized weapon system without any major downsides for doing so. It is inherently unbalanced and little tweaks here and there won't 'fix' it.
T3 Battlecruisers. |
Maded Rift
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
10
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Posted - 2015.06.23 06:47:04 -
[308] - Quote
Hey guys.
Just a few thoughts....
I agree with weapon size in relation to hull size arguments, but i also think that rise has a very valid point..
The good thing about sents is that they have a powerful Insta DPS application at lots of ranges, rather than waiting 20 seconds for flighted drones to reach their target.
You dont want to loose this right? ok well instead of nerfing the very very slightly overpowered BS sized weapon system in BS size hulls.
Have small medium and large sentry size class's
Without doing the maths i feel that this would be easier to tweak for different hull size class's without the unintended side effect of nerfing everything that uses the same weapon systems.
i would also like to point out, that the domi and geddon are only used most because they can apply dps and use nuets making them good vs caps and good vs most sub caps. nerfing sents or dda's will not make them go away or be used less.
Try the approach of making the meta/hulls/mods that we dont use match with the stuff we do like to use you will find you get a better reception from your player base and nerfing will become a word of the past.
simple: make the crappy things better not make the good things worse.
Fish...That is all. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
31941
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Posted - 2015.06.23 06:49:41 -
[309] - Quote
apostrophe's
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Zekora Rally
Negative Density Whatever.
17
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Posted - 2015.06.23 06:49:44 -
[310] - Quote
OMG!!! My pest has been revived!!! Nano pest fleet after this patch goes live.!! |
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2015.06.23 06:58:10 -
[311] - Quote
I personally welcome the slot layout change on the Ishtar, dare I say thank you for the buff?!
Even with the DDA nerf, as of right now I don't have room for one, with this change I can bring back my dps slightly above 400 with a nice tank, thank you CCP. |
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
419
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Posted - 2015.06.23 07:16:50 -
[312] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. How about something like Bandwidth Nerfs? Frigates max out at 25 Destroyers max out at 30 Cruisers max out at 50 Battlecruisers max out at 75 Battleships max out at 100
With the exception of Gallente/Amarr Bonused Hulls that max out at 25 above this, and T2 Hulls max out at 15 above this, making something like the Ishtar max out at 50+25+15 = 90, giving it a max of 3 Sentry or Heavy, 1 Medium and 1 Light in space
I believe most ships already are something close to this. |
Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2015.06.23 07:23:59 -
[313] - Quote
@caldari5
An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3711
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Posted - 2015.06.23 07:40:01 -
[314] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:@caldari5
An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all. Ishtar getting the BC treatment? Only a matter of time, though at this rate, could be a very long time.
Oh god.
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
419
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Posted - 2015.06.23 07:40:46 -
[315] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:@caldari5
An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all. Don't forget that the bonused ships normally have a much Larger Drone bay to account for the weapons being killable, with a 90 bandwidth and the existing drone bay, you would have enough space for 4 and bit full flights of drones, if you survive an encounter long enough to go through ALL 4 sets of drones you probably weren't meant to win anyways lol
Heck I would even support nerfing the bandwidth and buffing the drone bay size so that it could hold 5 full flights. |
Bonzair
The Mirage Estamos Solos Alliance.
24
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:11:05 -
[316] - Quote
I hope that all your creative team will be fired. Sad that it can be after dying of the project. Idiots. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
412
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:14:51 -
[317] - Quote
judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time |
Anthar Thebess
1099
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:15:01 -
[318] - Quote
Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf. Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE!
Wy we cannot go different way? Instead of nerfing DDA , buff gyros/ heat sinks/ etc.
Gun boats will deal more damage - all of them. More things will be dying , and we will get second important change - more logistic ships needed in a fleet , so nerf to fleet logistics.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Aldjor Dayman
S.A.S Pandemic Legion
2
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:29:52 -
[319] - Quote
Just remove the sentries and make them use heavies. Boom, job done. |
Adriana Shi
Original Sinners The Bastion
5
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:33:44 -
[320] - Quote
Alexander McKeon wrote:CCP Rise wrote:This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one. Vexor: +50% damage & HP Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP Eos: +50% Damage & HP Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy) VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking +25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range. Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries. The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull.
This Alllllll of this!
imo its not Shield Tar's that are broken or fast tar's that are... its the fact it can wield 5 sents and lulz at you 100+k away that extra omni for Traits anyone? i hope you realize CCP, You're killing the shield tar pretty hard here i know Gallent isn't really supposed to be shields but its nice to have more then 1 line of shield drone boats ie Gurista's. Shield domi isn't good, Shield Myrm? LULZ Also you realize you just made another VNI with that slot change? So honestly unless you're planning on Adding more shield drone boats i think this is a bad call.
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3711
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:34:12 -
[321] - Quote
To mare wrote:judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time They just nerfed everyone's ISK farming, that's all.
Oh god.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1437
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:37:01 -
[322] - Quote
Adriana Shi wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:CCP Rise wrote:This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one. Vexor: +50% damage & HP Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP Eos: +50% Damage & HP Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy) VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking +25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range. Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries. The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull. This Alllllll of this! imo its not Shield Tar's that are broken or fast tar's that are... its the fact it can wield 5 sents and lulz at you 100+k awaythat extra omni for Traits anyone? i hope you realize CCP, You're killing the shield tar pretty hard here i know Gallent isn't really supposed to be shields but its nice to have more then 1 line of shield drone boats ie Gurista's. Shield domi isn't good, Shield Myrm? LULZ Also you realize you just made another VNI with that slot change? So honestly unless you're planning on Adding more shield drone boats i think this is a bad call.
They're 100km away and hard to catch.
It's a HELL of a lot easier to catch and gangbang a 1600mm ishtar than a shield one. |
Hell's Hauler
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:41:04 -
[323] - Quote
Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta
It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines
But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now
Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe? |
Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
42
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Posted - 2015.06.23 08:44:54 -
[324] - Quote
Maybe you just cut bandwith to ~65mb for Ishtar. And 50mb for Vexor so each ship will use drones of its size. I mean meadium-size ships use medium drones. Large ships use large drones. Also return slots that you've taken form bandwidth and droneaby. |
fox targaryen
Nordwaffe
3
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:21:33 -
[325] - Quote
the problem isn't drones, the problem is all the drone ships have stupidly insane bonuses
you're going to keep nerfing around the problem until no one uses drones whatsoever |
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
97
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:27:42 -
[326] - Quote
Hell's Hauler wrote:Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta
It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines
But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now
Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe? Question for you - if drone-boats are the most prolific PvP platforms at the moment, and seem a tad OP, how does nerfing the ishtar only fix that problem? Fozzie isn't Larrikin - I think he knows what he's doing in this case.
Lidia Caderu wrote:Maybe you just cut bandwith to ~65mb for Ishtar. And 50mb for Vexor so each ship will use drones of its size. I mean meadium-size ships use medium drones. Large ships use large drones. Also return slots that you've taken for bandwidth and droneaby. When you have a moment to reflect after cooling down from a knee-jerk 'waaaaah', could you perhaps explain why you want to take away something that makes drone-based gameplay as fun as it is now - the fluidity with which you can switch this weapons class?
Riot Girl wrote: They just nerfed everyone's ISK farming, that's all.
+1 to that - afkTars are still annoying as hell to see..
Trajan Unknown wrote:From what I have seen in these sentry slugfests speed was no problem neither was tank. You simply can-Št reach the Ishtars at all in most cases. So even a slow less tanky Ishtar would be more or less the same as the one before.
You, sir, get double bingo points for hitting a double oxymoron. Neither speed nor tank is a problem because you cannot counter them? And reducing their speed or tank would be of no use because .. they would be just as uncounterable? That's just .. TEST level bad.
To mare wrote:judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time That's not the most reliable metric to gauge the success of a balance pass - check previous threads where things were universally considered bad (like Overview Icons) or current ones that generally seem to be badly thought out (like Fleet Warp Changes).
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Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
1224
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:28:59 -
[327] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.
You introduced DDAs, DPS goes up because the base damage was already somewhat balanced but applying it is still difficult with drone mwd speed, tracking and the easy killing of mobile drones. But then you introduced Omnis and suddenly sentries are doubling their range and tracking. Projection goes crazy. Double down on the change by giving a bunch of ships optimal bonuses.
So you're still trying to figure out how to fix this mess while introducing tracking mods for missiles that are improving on ranges that are already balanced (if not op already on some bonused ships, barring HAM/Torps)
So the Ishtar will die, once you've figured out it's not the damage but the ability to kite and project damage so much better than anything else.
Then 150km Caracals, Cerbs and Ravens will be the flavour of the year you spend trying to figure out what went wrong, nerfing every mod and ship on the way down until you figure out those tracking mods were the cause.
Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right?
Despite the angered tone a good reasoned argument.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny
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Dwaigon Aumer
The Bastards The Bastards.
20
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:29:22 -
[328] - Quote
Ishtar nerf +1 but removing sentry bonus was better Tempest bonus +1
MOAR Minmatar love please !!
Minmatar FTW!!
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
751
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:42:20 -
[329] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Roy Henry wrote:Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place? all drone boats are OP. (yeah. unpopular statement, I know). Why? Because (a) your ammo is for free. (b) you got the DPS *and* the range -- usually, you have either/or. (c) you're not using any highslots for your drones, giving you a full high rack PLUS another full weapon system on top of that. (d) you're bonussed for the whole range from small to X-Large targets, whereas turret or missile boats often only get bonusses for one size.
Put Drone DPS, tracking & range performance being independent of the host ship's direction, velocity or range relative the target as your (a).
TRANSVERSAL - WHAT'S THAT?
No tracking, effectively - always working with perfection once in orbit, or if the target is actively fleeing or otherwise maneuvering to mitigate damage. Mitigate damage. LEL Omni damage Cap-less Ammo-less Require no fittings, practically Base tracking on Heavies that can hit ABing Destroyers DDAs that are out of proportion, and are OP relative to base drone attributes and the legacy 50% hitpoint/damage hull bonuses Each drone's EHP equal to whole cruisers, making their destruction a non-option most of the time Can't be TD's Can't be jammed, practically Can't be neuted Can't be damped Host ship always has full tank & full Ewar and/or tackle.
What's not to like.
Drone Cruisers Online - After the Ishtar, Gila will take the torch and VNI will still do 700 DPS at Battleship ranges.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1438
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Posted - 2015.06.23 09:45:38 -
[330] - Quote
I wouldn't be so sure. Those missile mods are going to do extremely bad things to the meta. |
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