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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11010
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey everyone. We have another set of balance changes to talk about today. We've been keeping a close eye on the Nestor battleship and we're planning to make a few small but significant changes to it in the Hyperion release.
The most significant change by far is that we are increasing the drop rate of the Drone Nexus chips that can be converted to Sisters of EVE ship BPCs quite dramatically. These should now drop much more often from all types of "Sentient" drone commander NPCs, especially from the Sentient Alvus battleships. This should go a long way to helping bring the price of the Nestor down from its current levels.
Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
And finally, we are reducing the Nestor's signature radius a bit from the current 465m to 420m.
We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.
As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.
Thanks -Fozzie Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7610
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
first finally! |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
750
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1 for cheaper Nestors Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul |
Thom Mangum
Blue-Fire
20
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
420m sig
BLAZE IT
Good change; I like the refitting uniqueness. We'll see if it actually gets used if the price comes down |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
874
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
23
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
First? Nope - DAMN!
The Nestor isn't common because people don't want to fly it. It doesn't matter how common you make the nexus chips drop.
I'm curious about one thing though why give it a ship maintenance bay? Items like the depot don't have it and ships can still refit at them. As I say just curious about the mechanics of the ship refitting fucntion |
Savnire Jacitu
Jinxed.
285
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
I give this a neat/10 <corrupt> |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7610
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please
This is actually the best way to do things, better to make small changes to get to a good place than to over buff something and have people suffer in game for weeks or months before CCP can come back around and fix it.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
874
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please This is actually the best way to do things, better to make small changes to get to a good place than to over buff something and have people suffer in game for weeks or months before CCP can come back around and fix it.
or we have too wait for months for any meaningful changes .. in the meantime we are stuck waiting for those said changes too actually occur Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
762
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Glad to see y'all are keeping tabs on this. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4736
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fun suggestion: Reduce the Nestor's mass, but add a ship "bonus" that increases the mass when running a prop mod so it won't be super fast . Then they might see more use in w-space. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11011
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Two step wrote:Fun suggestion: Reduce the Nestor's mass, but add a ship "bonus" that increases the mass when running a prop mod so it won't be super fast . Then they might see more use in w-space.
The Nestor already has approximately half the mass of other battleships. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
260
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage. |
Sir HappyPants
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
87
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Two step wrote:Fun suggestion: Reduce the Nestor's mass, but add a ship "bonus" that increases the mass when running a prop mod so it won't be super fast . Then they might see more use in w-space. The Nestor already has approximately half the mass of other battleships.
Go further! Make it a quarter mass with prop-mod fitted, but double mass when prop mod is active!
Or something.
I'm terrible at this. Member of the #TweetFleet@thisurlnotfound |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
874
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
so this ship maintenance .. does the ship have too be static too access it or just orbit super close ?? also if the ship is being shot at how does that ineract? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4736
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Two step wrote:Fun suggestion: Reduce the Nestor's mass, but add a ship "bonus" that increases the mass when running a prop mod so it won't be super fast . Then they might see more use in w-space. The Nestor already has approximately half the mass of other battleships.
Yeah, it is still too fat for w-space use though. While on the subject, how about fixing blackops BS's mass to be more normal? :P CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
874
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sir HappyPants wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Two step wrote:Fun suggestion: Reduce the Nestor's mass, but add a ship "bonus" that increases the mass when running a prop mod so it won't be super fast . Then they might see more use in w-space. The Nestor already has approximately half the mass of other battleships. Go further! Make it a quarter mass with prop-mod fitted, but double mass when prop mod is active! Or something. I'm terrible at this.
indeed you are ... i think the disparity between the nestor mass and the rest of the battleships is too much .. i would propose that other battleships should be brought down closer .. at least the attack battleships anyway.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3752
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread. Great! Now can we get the 8th launcher added back onto the Barghest as well? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
762
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thinking about this, the virus strength of the Nestor has always seemed like a weird carrot to me. Currently, it's as strong as the Astero and Stratios. This means, given the low strength of the rats (if any indeed exist) and otherwise low danger of these sites, there is little reason to risk such an expensive and (relatively speaking) slow ship doing these sites. Have you considered raising the virus strength to 15 for the Nestor? I'm not sure if this would be a meaningful increase, but it would at least cause people to have to decide if the increase in hacking power would be worth the risk. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
173
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Underwhelming.
So its still a crappy hacker/scanner
And a crappy repper
And a crappy shooter
And a crappy j-space explorer
And a crappy droner
And now its a crappy refitter
Everything it does is still done much better by other ships. Ships of smaller classes or larger classes. |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3647
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Reasoning for the 5000 m3 bay? Well, the art does have a shuttle bay on it Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3752
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Reasoning for the 5000 m3 bay? Well, the art does have a shuttle bay on it Yes, so do we get a bonus SoE shuttle now as well? :D I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
203
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
That's nice but what in the world can I do with a 5k SMA ? Put a shuttle in it? What else? |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3752
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sphit Ker wrote:That's nice but what in the world can I do with a 5k SMA ? Put a shuttle in it? What else? Leopard for the win! I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
AtomYcX
Hard Knocks Inc.
79
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
Is Ship Maintenance Bay a typo for Fleet Hangar? A 5000m3 SMB makes no sense as you can't fit any ships in it (well, a single shuttle). |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1417
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please
As opposed to adding something completely imbalanced and then having to wait an entire release cycle to fix it? Epic Space Cat |
Theory Bore
Ozkavosh Elite Space Guild.
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please As opposed to adding something completely imbalanced and then having to wait an entire release cycle to fix it?
*cough* senty drones and ishtar/dominix *cough*
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1163
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Would a fleet hangar be better than an SMA since the SMA is too small for most things? Pushes it even closer to the support role. |
Conjaq
Mid-Grade Mercenaries Courageous Cowards
9
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
I _really_ want to be able, to use the Nestor but even with these changes i'm not sure for what it excels at.
The refitting in space would be awesome if we didn't have a mobile depot. - (U)nfortunaly we do, so this does not warrant the price tag, nor det limited use.
Other than that, it does not excel in anything in particular. It's to expensive for pvp, and there are other alternatives for doing pve.
(Dominix, Rattlesnake just to name a few.. all way cheaper)
The only thing that could make this ship usefull, is its RR platform. However it's still way cheaper just to use a logistic.
Giving it a covert cloak would definitely be to overpowered, though extremely cool(and might give it some use for exploration) If it had jump capabilities, it would instantly become very usefull and actually worth the price tag(It gives it relativel safety)
+ for giving it a jump capability.
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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
4256
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Well, it's a small step towards giving it the role of a exploration support ship.
The full step would be a 16.5k m-¦ SMA, around 1k fleet hangar and, to make it (somewhat) covert like the other ships in the line, a role bonus reducing the scan resolution penalty of cloaking devices, preferably by 100%. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
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Jayne Fillon
397
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
I have serious concerns about the retting capability when used in high sec wars.
You've just made station camping, and undock tomfoolery even less risky for griefers than it already was. Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Freya Shimane
Cut Throats And Wise Guys
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Would a fleet hangar be better than an SMA since the SMA is too small for most things? Pushes it even closer to the support role.
You can't refit ships from a fleet hangar. That's the purpose for the SMA is for refits, not ship transportation.
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Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
127
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
I'm glad that you're aware that the Nestor isn't particularly useful. Probably not enough as far as changes go to make it viable, but at least it might have a niche use or two.
Any plan to address the battleship class as a whole? How about CBCs? What was the verdict on the Tempest? |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3752
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:49:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:You've just made station camping, and undock tomfoolery even less risky for griefers than it already was. This is really a separate issue entirely, is it not? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
DaJokr
Hard Knocks Inc.
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Enjoy the change, will make them slightly more useful and less vulnerable to dread blaps.
Mass on them is fine for WHs
Would be really nice:
Hacking role bonus -> something useful (Cap reduction on energy or armor transfers perhaps?) Base sensor strength 24 -> 28-30 +1 low slot
Then I will fly it forever. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
173
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Conjaq wrote: Giving it a covert cloak would definitely be to overpowered
How definitive we talking? I don't see the thing being so incredibly good at combat that a cloak would make it OP. |
Aquamo
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
5,000 m3 ? is this a typo or did you mean a fleet hangar?
I can see a 50,000m3 SMA or maybe a 5,000 m3 fleet hangar but a 5,000 m3 SMA seems unique :-)
edit: or is the only way to make a ship have a "fitting service" is to provide at least a trivially small SMA ?
Aquamo |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
282
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
Are there any plans of creating a battleship with similar nestor bonuses for shields? Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
22
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Underwhelming.
So its still a crappy hacker/scanner
And a crappy repper
And a crappy shooter
And a crappy j-space explorer
And a crappy droner
And now its a crappy refitter
Everything it does is still done much better by other ships. Ships of smaller classes or larger classes.
Maybe its strength is just that... its a swiss army knife that can work in a pinch to fill many different roles when you're not in a larger fleet or in a position to reship easily. But obviously has being able to do all those things has to have the trade-off of not being able to do everything as well as or better than a specialized ship.
My only real fault with the Nestor but its too expensive to fly regularly and get blown up. I'd rather welp a carrier for that ISK as it can do all of the things a Nestor can but better (except scanning/hacking with exception to some WH guys). I think increasing the drop rate of its Nexus chips to increase supply and drop prices will be a good thing. +1 Fozzie |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1911
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
yay! the SMA makes me happy...
any chance we can get a deployable that acts as a mobile jump unit? one time deployable that only battleships can activate and can only be used in a constilation There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad. |
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1165
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
Freya Shimane wrote:Rowells wrote:Would a fleet hangar be better than an SMA since the SMA is too small for most things? Pushes it even closer to the support role. You can't refit ships from a fleet hangar. That's the purpose for the SMA is for refits, not ship transportation. What? You put modules and/or ammo /drones in there and then fit then to your ship. More useful than only using tuff in your own cargo if you are out away from base for long periods of time. I'm not saying get rid of fitting services, you do t need SMA for that, especially if it's as tiny as 5k. |
Zoneras
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
8
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
This SMA a huge step in making something VERY VERY VERY useful in a niche role in wormholes. This may in fact be solving the issue with capitals being spit out in random directions after jumping and unable to refit off of one another. I wonder if that was your intention? I'm still not satisfied with having to throw another expensive ship at the problem just because the enemy is unwilling to jump through a wormhole. |
colera deldios
195
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Two step wrote:Fun suggestion: Reduce the Nestor's mass, but add a ship "bonus" that increases the mass when running a prop mod so it won't be super fast . Then they might see more use in w-space. The Nestor already has approximately half the mass of other battleships.
The price is that because no one want's it... Loads of people do SOE missions and find it better to invest into Astero/Stratios. In WH both Dominix & Tengu outperform Nestor in RR/DPS roles. In L4 missions both 0.0/LS/HS it's outperformed by other ships same in PVP/Blops in fleets & small skirmishes & solo pvp in all space.
So why on earth would anyone use this ship ? |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2069
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:06:00 -
[44] - Quote
Finally the shuttle transporter that I've always wanted. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
751
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
please just redesign the entire line, they're awful. |
Maxis Lithium
Munch and Crunch Security Runners
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:08:00 -
[46] - Quote
If it can refit Frig sized ships in space, then I can see it having a use. being able to move in, swap out equipment for fleets and let those fleets move on to their destination would allow fleets to fit against specific enemies after they are scanned down by the Nestor. The changes to book mark sharing will facilitate this as well.
I like the idea on concept, but implementation will be another issue.
Increasing the drop rates would be huge! The Nestor would be more viable in it's various rolls if it weren't such a huge risk to fly. If it's more replaceable, then it becomes much viable to experiment with. |
Sjaandi HyShan
EVE University Ivy League
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:10:00 -
[47] - Quote
It does seem like the ship is trying to be a jack-of-all trades. Good at everything, great at none. Making it fulfill a niche roll would increase its perceived value, since you can buy all the ships for its roles (and that perform better at those roles) for less than this ship costs. |
Mara Tessidar
Dark Star Safari Goonswarm Federation
1122
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:11:00 -
[48] - Quote
You can pay less money and get a more useful ship in the form of a carrier. |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
282
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:20:00 -
[49] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:You can pay less money and get a more useful ship in the form of a carrier.
Especially in highsec and lowclass wormholes... Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
GreenSeed
1105
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
its bad at everything, but its a lot of things to be bad at, so it could eventually balance out...
why not limiting the max reppers to 2 and buffing their rep amnt by 300%, lowering cycle time to triage levels, while also increasing their cap cost 200%. this way the ship has a similar potential rep power to what it could have now, with a massive burst rep, but with no realistic possibility to keep the reps up for more than 2 - 3 cycles, this also forces the pilot to plan each cycle.
all this, with the added bonus of keeping its weapon/utility highs. as it is now, the ship is just plain weird. it cant do anything right. at least this way it can become a strong rep platform paired with another nestor, or a 3 cap xferr guardian. while still being a :battleship:. |
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Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3752
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:23:00 -
[51] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:its bad at everything, but its a lot of things to be bad at, so it could eventually balance outGǪ Haha, too funny. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3650
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:26:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ship Maintenance array: How you give a ship the ability to have other people refit using it.
making it 5,000 m3: Makes it just large enough for a shuttle.
Like the one in the concept art.
http://cdn02.tmcdn.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_stopgap/public/SOE_Nestor_Battleship_FinalConcept_lrg_0.jpg?itok=41C190gi Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
1602
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
Give it the ability to be black ops bridged so at least that not-as-good-as-logi rep bonus might have some use "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart." -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
Hero of the CSM Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
589
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please This is actually the best way to do things, better to make small changes to get to a good place than to over buff something and have people suffer in game for weeks or months before CCP can come back around and fix it. Adding a few m/s to a useless ship doesn't make it good though. (I'm looking at you, Muninn changes) How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Enre Rosencraz
Protoculture Labs
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
SMA is an interesting way to go. If you are going to rethink this ship, as everyone is pretty unanimous that you should, then go a different way with it.
Make it an Anti-Bhaalgorn.
Give it a shielded capacitor. A 25-50% reduction (Amarr BS skill level based) in cap neuted per cycle. This will give it use in C4+ anomalies and make it one hell of a remote repper.
it may even give it a purpose in PVP fleets as a logi alternative if you make it a bit more agile.
my 2 isk. |
XvXTeacherVxV
Dayman Industries
100
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:05:00 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function.
Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships. - Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer. - Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system. - SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay.
Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle?
(And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.) Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
1998
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:07:00 -
[57] - Quote
Hey look, a 1.4 billion isk mobile depot. Neat-o.
I'm sure it will find plenty of use in situations where dropping a mobile depot isn't the best idea, but dropping an anemic 1.4 billion isk battleship is a solid move.
Yeah. |
Jasmin Fox
Keeper of the Black Star
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:08:00 -
[58] - Quote
Get some pants and make change it to a blackops. It will fit to its hull and will make the ship way more used. Your changes will not make anyone use that ship. There are better ones out there that cost less. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
174
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
Enre Rosencraz wrote:SMA is an interesting way to go. If you are going to rethink this ship, as everyone is pretty unanimous that you should, then go a different way with it.
Make it an Anti-Bhaalgorn.
Give it a shielded capacitor. A 25-50% reduction (Amarr BS skill level based) in cap neuted per cycle. This will give it use in C4+ anomalies and make it one hell of a remote repper.
it may even give it a purpose in PVP fleets as a logi alternative if you make it a bit more agile.
my 2 isk. Whoa, I like you. |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
106
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:11:00 -
[60] - Quote
For PVE you would have to be ******** to use this ship. SMA is interesting. That gives it a small niche use in PVP.
Fingers getting closer to the undock button Foz....but still not close enough. |
|
colera deldios
196
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:18:00 -
[61] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function. Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships. - Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer. - Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system. - SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay. Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle? (And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.)
So basically spend extra dev hours to make it even more useless ? Only viable change for this ship is if it's to remain this science type ship than:
* Change armour resistance bonus TO Shield resistance bonus * Remove Remote Repair Bonus ( no use for this ) * Remove Lazer Damage Bonus ( no use for this because in WH == Neutralizers ) * Add immunity to Energy Neutralizing * Add shield recharge rate by 5% per level
* Remove 2 Low slot and add 2 Mid slots * Remove 1 High slot
Explanation: Safe for Rattlesnake what we have been missing is a ship that can do Passive Tank really well. If this ship is to retain the role of being a science ship than there is an open need for it. There is a need for a proper ship for raiding Worm Hole space solo this would mean that Nestor would be able to run any WH Relic/Data site solo which by the way is already doable with other ships but only for one type of sites and it's bit slow.
Nestor could fulfil that role it can go into WH's solo Relic/Data sites while the price tag justifies the bonuses and it would make a good target one that most WH residents would plan an elaborate trap for.
**IF NOT PVE THAN PVP**
* Remove Relic/Data/Scanning Bonuses * Add ability to Bridge or be bridged * Remove Laser Bonus * Change SMA to Fleet Hangar
This way it could serve as a Blops Logistic ship. Now my personal opinion is that Blops are for hot drops not brawls and thus should not need/have Logistic ships with them but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5-2b for just the hull then by all means give them a logistic blops ship. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:25:00 -
[62] - Quote
Even if prices on these come down its still more effective to undock a carrier than it is to field a nestor today.
Your able to refit, tank much better, rep much better, do better DPS when not in triage, and it has jump drives. And thats not to mention it can carry ships into combat bigger than an unfitted frigate. It certain cases its also much cheaper.
What the Nestor really needs is a role it can fill that makes it Worth flying, as a Black Ops if it followed the astero and stratios it could become very popular as it would be the only BLOPS with rep bonuses, perfect for dropping into cyno jammed systems where you dont have access to triage. it would be able to put out a respectable tank and some decent DPS as well making it an invaluable addition on a Black Ops Drop under those circumstances.
We all know Black Ops still need some emergency surgery and that contributes to why CCP doesn't want to throw then nestor in with them until they are fixed, but the fact of the matter no matter which way you cut it or bonus you give it theres something else that will do it better at less cost. It would SHINE as a black ops if you would just give it a chance
Try it on the test server before you do it here on tranquility that gives you all the time you need to balance it and put it in line with other Black Ops Battleships. I think you'l see that the general consensus is that it belongs as a Black Ops Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:26:00 -
[63] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:XvXTeacherVxV wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function. Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships. - Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer. - Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system. - SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay. Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle? (And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.) So basically spend extra dev hours to make it even more useless ? Only viable change for this ship is if it's to remain this science type ship than: * Change armour resistance bonus TO Shield resistance bonus * Remove Remote Repair Bonus ( no use for this ) * Remove Lazer Damage Bonus ( no use for this because in WH == Neutralizers ) * Add immunity to Energy Neutralizing * Add shield recharge rate by 5% per level
* Remove 2 Low slot and add 2 Mid slots * Remove 1 High slot Explanation: Safe for Rattlesnake what we have been missing is a ship that can do Passive Tank really well. If this ship is to retain the role of being a science ship than there is an open need for it. There is a need for a proper ship for raiding Worm Hole space solo this would mean that Nestor would be able to run any WH Relic/Data site solo which by the way is already doable with other ships but only for one type of sites and it's bit slow. Nestor could fulfil that role it can go into WH's solo Relic/Data sites while the price tag justifies the bonuses and it would make a good target one that most WH residents would plan an elaborate trap for. **IF NOT PVE THAN PVP** * Remove Relic/Data/Scanning Bonuses * Add ability to Bridge or be bridged * Remove Laser Bonus * Change SMA to Fleet Hangar This way it could serve as a Blops Logistic ship. Now my personal opinion is that Blops are for hot drops not brawls and thus should not need/have Logistic ships with them but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5-2b for just the hull then by all means give them a logistic blops ship.
Immunity to nuets? On a laser ship? Way too OP
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Soteriophobia
178
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:26:00 -
[64] - Quote
Will be fun to see how the refit ability affects alliance tournaments! |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:27:00 -
[65] - Quote
Just covert ops it already. Gimp it in other ways, but lets finally get a covert ops battleship in the game. |
SwagYolo420
Vertical Rebirth
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:27:00 -
[66] - Quote
Bringing the price down should have been done a lot earlier.
Allowing refits without carriers/frantically deploying and repping mobile depots is going to be interesting, especially in higher class wormholes (if you want to use this anywhere else you are doing it suboptimally).
With the number of mids it has you can use it as a logistics platform to rep guardians and screw around with remote sebo's/remote eccm.
The scan resolution on this boat is unfortunately too low to use as a logistics platform, but guardians are better for that anyway (scan res, sig, cap transfers).
Also if you bring a Nestor along with triage, 2 dreads and a fleet the carrier can too refit without mobile depots, which is nice. |
progodlegend
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
168
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:28:00 -
[67] - Quote
I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.
If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.
You guys got to think outside of the box :). |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:29:00 -
[68] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:You can pay less money and get a more useful ship in the form of a carrier. Especially in highsec and lowclass wormholes...
High sec has guardians, better rep cheaper high sec has nuetral orcas high sec has nuetral scanners In fact high sec really has ships that are better at every role the nestor COULD FILL for much cheaper Im pretty sure this ship wasnt designed with high sec in mind
and low class wormholes? Oh build a carrier its better and still cheaper Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Tiger Tesla
Periphery Bound
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:29:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:I have serious concerns about the retting capability when used in high sec wars.
You've just made station camping, and undock tomfoolery even less risky for griefers than it already was.
I have to say, while I am excited about Nestors being used more in w-space with these changes, Jayne has a very serious point about reinforcing their already common use as a high sec station game platform. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:30:00 -
[70] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Just covert ops it already. Gimp it in other ways, but lets finally get a covert ops battleship in the game.
Battleships warping cloaked would be broken, i think the idea of making it a Black Ops suits it much better in the long run so you dont get broken OP Ships or something as useless as this is in all reality. Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
989
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:30:00 -
[71] - Quote
Fozzie before this gets too long and you do not see it,
You may want to look at this from another angle.
First define what space you want it to be used in.
If As I believe it is wormholes, then you want to consider how it is used.
If the decision is not to fit a covert ops cloak, then the role for it is for being used in home sites, home defence, or at most one out. Anything beyond that the visibility compromises the fleet Unless there is an overwhelming value to it.
All the changes bring some value to it in the home hole, but other ships here can do the job in a cheaper and simpler way.
So what would make it viable outside the home? Covert ops naturally, but lets imagine that is off the table for now.
The remote rep role could work, but if you want it to be more than the plain girl at the dance, it needs to appeal More. So Make it useful for ALL fleets, shield AND armour. Otherwise it will always be left behind and T2 logi taken instead.
The other role is as a combat hole closer, with VARIABLE mass, the minimum just too big for the mass-lite holes, but able to get involved in more fights than an orca.
Either of these roles would transform it's viability.
Please consider these either for now (best) or the next balance pass that unfortunately will be required.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2000
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:32:00 -
[72] - Quote
You still haven't answered the fundamental question that's been hindering the Nestor since it was proposed: Why?
I'm afraid I just don't see how adding a built-in mobile depot answers that question. It just adds another question mark to the hodge-podge of stats that is the nestor.
Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage Amarr Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 4% bonus to all armor resistances Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range 50% bonus to Core and Combat Scanner Probe strength 10+ bonus to Relic and Data Analyzer virus strength 50% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer amount 200% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer range
So we have a turret-repping-scanning-hacking-drone boat that really doesn't work well at all, but now it comes with a mobile depot and a shuttle!
I'll reiterate what the community has been telling you for ages: -As a logi boat it is surpassed both in practical effectiveness and in cost effectiveness by both T2 logi cruisers AND carriers. -As a PvE boat, it cannot compete with the marauders, pirate battleships, or even most navy battleships. -The nestor has no means of reliably navigating dangerous space by itself. This removes it from the list of viable exploration ships. -As a pvp boat, there's no reason not to bring a t2 logi cruiser or a carrier instead.
But hey, now we can add the following bullet: -As a mobile depot, it lacks the 48 hour reinforcement timer, but it can fit a cloak and become invisible-depot!
So, see you in 6 months in the next nestor thread? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3653
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:33:00 -
[73] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:Will be fun to see how the refit ability affects alliance tournaments!
By not being allowed. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2003
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
progodlegend wrote:I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.
If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.
You guys got to think outside of the box :). Yeah, people have been saying that for what, 9 months now? Best case scenario: it comes down in price from 1.4 billion to 1 billion, and still no one uses it.
I mean, yeah, it will be used for station games in high sec now. Yaaaaay. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
OK to elaborate on what i think th bonuses should be if it were a Black Ops here it is:
Amarr Battleship Skill per Level: 4% Bonus to armor resistances Gallente Battleships Skill per level 10% Bonus to Drone Hitpoints, Damage, and Repair Amount
ROLE BONUS: 300% Velocity modifier when cloaked 50% Bonus to Core and Combat Probe Strength 50% bonus to armor Repair Amount 200% Bonus to armor repair range
Note: Can fit covert Cynosural Field Generators No targeting delay after de-cloaking
Effectively what this does is make the nestor less effective at certain things than a Black ops For example it CANNOT fit a bridge, leaving that to the actual Black Ops in fleet since that is their role as a T2 SHip It has the same repair power as before, making it great for logistics on Black ops drops as i mentioned above It moves slower cloaked than a skilled Black Ops pilot, since again the T2 should do this better Adds drone repair amount as well since that fits with the logistic nature of its current bonuses keeps the core strength to scanner probes up so it can help jump targets in covert gangs.
Drops the useless scan strength bonus since there is 0 point to doing relics in a battleship, even ghost sites Does not have the inertia bonus other Black Ops do since it already is quite nimble.
This makes it great for Wormholes, Low Sec, Null Sec, and even high sec since you now have an effective stealth repair platform or brick tanked repair ship for shananeginns on undocks
Let me know what you guys think of it as i listed, read my post above for the logic behind why i think it should be a BLOPS in case you missed that.
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Xavier Azabu
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:51:00 -
[76] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: ...We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.
As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.
Thanks -Fozzie
Please add a covert ops cloak. Still think that this is the best idea for it. It would be a lot of fun. Nestors with Jump Drives would of course be sweet too, as people would actually use it for very unique purposes on black ops fleets.
progodlegend wrote:I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.
If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.
You guys got to think outside of the box :).
Even with some of the niche uses that you get with spider tanking or that energy turret range... even though it has a sexy hull... It's still a battleship and aligns and warps so slow due to the warp velocity changes. Even if the price dropped to say, the price of a PLEX - it still makes it a juicy killmail. Personally I'm just going to stick with a Domi, Myrm, VNI, or Ishtar for a lot of the same uses. And if I want to explore I'll just whip out a smaller ship that can do everything faster, dock up, and undock with a more effective combat ship than this to do whatever I was going to do. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
762
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:54:00 -
[77] - Quote
If we are going to discuss future changes to the Nestor, I must advise against a covert ops cloak. A covert jump drive suits the ship much better. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
286
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:58:00 -
[78] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Hopelesshobo wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:You can pay less money and get a more useful ship in the form of a carrier. Especially in highsec and lowclass wormholes... High sec has guardians, better rep cheaper high sec has nuetral orcas high sec has nuetral scanners In fact high sec really has ships that are better at every role the nestor COULD FILL for much cheaper Im pretty sure this ship wasnt designed with high sec in mind and low class wormholes? Oh build a carrier its better and still cheaper
A Nestor's rep is equivalent to about 2.5 guardians. And if you are roaming through wormholes, are you going to stop and build a carrier in each system you come across?
From there, given that this ship has the ability to refit each other. Imagine filling your cargohold with hardeners and running a domi like spider tank fleet. Now imagine that you just keep your hardeners overheated when you are getting shot, and when they burn out you simply refit to a new one. Or even keeping your reps overheated all the time.
Or if you simply used this as a standard logi for a battleship fleet, imagine that the battleships could just keep their guns overheated all the time and swap out guns that are in their cargohold.
Good luck refitting on the fly if you have to move with an Orca.
The only thing that's holding the Nestor back is the current price for it. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Heinrich Erquilenne
Foundation Cutting-Edge Mordus Angels
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 19:58:00 -
[79] - Quote
Increasing drop rates? Why? Do you want to kill LP farming? The SOE missions are among the last somewhat profitable LP sources. Mission running is far from being as profitable as trade, anomalies or wormhole farming to the point your proposal isn't even funny. Loot has been nerfed with reprocessing, and now, BPCs can be obtained anywhere. Awesome. Why not removing missions from the game if you despise that kind of content that much? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
752
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:05:00 -
[80] - Quote
Heinrich Erquilenne wrote:Increasing drop rates? Why? Do you want to kill LP farming? The SOE missions are among the last somewhat profitable LP sources. Mission running is far from being as profitable as trade, anomalies or wormhole farming to the point your proposal isn't even funny. Loot has been nerfed with reprocessing, and now, BPCs can be obtained anywhere. Awesome. Why not removing missions from the game if you despise that kind of content that much?
are you implying that people take a loss while mission running? that'd be really nice for highsec imo. |
|
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:07:00 -
[81] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:Hopelesshobo wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:You can pay less money and get a more useful ship in the form of a carrier. Especially in highsec and lowclass wormholes... High sec has guardians, better rep cheaper high sec has nuetral orcas high sec has nuetral scanners In fact high sec really has ships that are better at every role the nestor COULD FILL for much cheaper Im pretty sure this ship wasnt designed with high sec in mind and low class wormholes? Oh build a carrier its better and still cheaper A Nestor's rep is equivalent to about 2.5 guardians. And if you are roaming through wormholes, are you going to stop and build a carrier in each system you come across? From there, given that this ship has the ability to refit each other. Imagine filling your cargohold with hardeners and running a domi like spider tank fleet. Now imagine that you just keep your hardeners overheated when you are getting shot, and when they burn out you simply refit to a new one. Or even keeping your reps overheated all the time. Or if you simply used this as a standard logi for a battleship fleet, imagine that the battleships could just keep their guns overheated all the time and swap out guns that are in their cargohold. Good luck refitting on the fly if you have to move with an Orca. The only thing that's holding the Nestor back is the current price for it.
yea but the issue is even at 1b its STILL cheaper to bring 3 guardians, and more effective since if that your only logi its getting primaried hard because of the price tag even 2-3 of them would be Dust and Cinders to a well orgnaized fleet, it lacks the tank or sensor strength plus if it kites like guardians you cant refit so there goes a big piece of your arguement. And the hole refit piece doesnt work so well if you dont have the cargo space to carry excessive amounts of guns. Once again the orca does better at that even if its slower because it has stupid cargo space for mods and such ( also still cheaper with similar tank)
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:10:00 -
[82] - Quote
Oh and i forgot to mention Guardians are also better because they can wire you Cap too not just armor. that makes them even more invaluable than the nestor Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8734
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:13:00 -
[83] - Quote
To be honest, I still can't think of a reason to use one. In almost any situation barring highsec, you could just use a carrier instead. And in highsec, you can use the far more common Orca instead.
If it cost 350mil then I could maybe see using it, but I really doubt you are going to buff the drop rate *that* drastically. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
591
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote: Immunity to nuets? On a laser ship? Way too OP
It's a drone ship with a moderate laser bonus, not a laser ship.
progodlegend wrote:I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.
If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.
You guys got to think outside of the box :).
Uh oh, incoming Nestor fleet.
Probably be used exactly once, just like the Goku bomber fleet... How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
SwagYolo420
Vertical Rebirth
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:36:00 -
[85] - Quote
Scary things with nestor fleet is that they can all refit stabs and warp out. |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:41:00 -
[86] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please Being conservative with changes is exactly the way to go with their new release patterns.. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Paranoid Loyd
1330
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:42:00 -
[87] - Quote
SwagYolo420 wrote:Scary things with nestor fleet is that they can all refit stabs and warp out.
Anywhere a Nestor would actually be used a HIC can't be too far away. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
877
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:48:00 -
[88] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please Being conservative with changes is exactly the way to go with their new release patterns..
not if it doesn't meet its end goal Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3757
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:51:00 -
[89] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:not if it doesn't meet its end goal The Nestor is still CCP Rises's "spruce goose". This is, what - the third revision/attempt to make the Nestor relevant again? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2763
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:56:00 -
[90] - Quote
can you board a ship out of the bay or will it be restricted like on the DSPs? eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
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Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:57:00 -
[91] - Quote
The refit ability of the Nestor is an interesting addition, and a small step forward to its usefulness. Multiplying the drop is good...
I still strongly support making the Nestor a logistics black ops ship when CCP get to rebalance the black ops... "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
colera deldios
196
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:03:00 -
[92] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:colera deldios wrote:XvXTeacherVxV wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function. Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships. - Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer. - Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system. - SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay. Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle? (And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.) So basically spend extra dev hours to make it even more useless ? Only viable change for this ship is if it's to remain this science type ship than: * Change armour resistance bonus TO Shield resistance bonus * Remove Remote Repair Bonus ( no use for this ) * Remove Lazer Damage Bonus ( no use for this because in WH == Neutralizers ) * Add immunity to Energy Neutralizing * Add shield recharge rate by 5% per level
* Remove 2 Low slot and add 2 Mid slots * Remove 1 High slot Explanation: Safe for Rattlesnake what we have been missing is a ship that can do Passive Tank really well. If this ship is to retain the role of being a science ship than there is an open need for it. There is a need for a proper ship for raiding Worm Hole space solo this would mean that Nestor would be able to run any WH Relic/Data site solo which by the way is already doable with other ships but only for one type of sites and it's bit slow. Nestor could fulfil that role it can go into WH's solo Relic/Data sites while the price tag justifies the bonuses and it would make a good target one that most WH residents would plan an elaborate trap for. **IF NOT PVE THAN PVP** * Remove Relic/Data/Scanning Bonuses * Add ability to Bridge or be bridged * Remove Laser Bonus * Change SMA to Fleet Hangar This way it could serve as a Blops Logistic ship. Now my personal opinion is that Blops are for hot drops not brawls and thus should not need/have Logistic ships with them but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5-2b for just the hull then by all means give them a logistic blops ship. Immunity to nuets? On a laser ship? Way too OP
You missed the point where lasers are removed. ... Also why is it OP exactly ? Laser ships eat ton of capacitor where others not so much.. |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
286
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:08:00 -
[93] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote: yea but the issue is even at 1b its STILL cheaper to bring 3 guardians, and more effective since if that your only logi its getting primaried hard because of the price tag even 2-3 of them would be Dust and Cinders to a well orgnaized fleet, it lacks the tank or sensor strength plus if it kites like guardians you cant refit so there goes a big piece of your arguement. And the hole refit piece doesnt work so well if you dont have the cargo space to carry excessive amounts of guns. Once again the orca does better at that even if its slower because it has stupid cargo space for mods and such ( also still cheaper with similar tank)
A few things in response to this.
1. You are assuming that the fleet has the numbers to field 3 guardians to every nestor. 2. The Nestors can move with the DPS. For a traditional logi setup, you would probably only look at fielding a nestor if everyone else if flying pirate hulls as well. 3. It does have more sensor strength then a guardian, that being said, it is easier to jam 1 target vs 3. But this is also assuming the fleet has the people online to field 3 guardians for every nestor. 4. Even if the fleet has 1 extra set of overheatable modules in your cargohold, that still gives your fleet the ability to overheat for twice as long as the other fleet. Plus if this is fielded in highsec, it could even be a neutral nestor just for refitting, don't even use it as a logi. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
93
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:09:00 -
[94] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:colera deldios wrote:XvXTeacherVxV wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function. Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships. - Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer. - Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system. - SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay. Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle? (And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.) So basically spend extra dev hours to make it even more useless ? Only viable change for this ship is if it's to remain this science type ship than: * Change armour resistance bonus TO Shield resistance bonus * Remove Remote Repair Bonus ( no use for this ) * Remove Lazer Damage Bonus ( no use for this because in WH == Neutralizers ) * Add immunity to Energy Neutralizing * Add shield recharge rate by 5% per level
* Remove 2 Low slot and add 2 Mid slots * Remove 1 High slot Explanation: Safe for Rattlesnake what we have been missing is a ship that can do Passive Tank really well. If this ship is to retain the role of being a science ship than there is an open need for it. There is a need for a proper ship for raiding Worm Hole space solo this would mean that Nestor would be able to run any WH Relic/Data site solo which by the way is already doable with other ships but only for one type of sites and it's bit slow. Nestor could fulfil that role it can go into WH's solo Relic/Data sites while the price tag justifies the bonuses and it would make a good target one that most WH residents would plan an elaborate trap for. **IF NOT PVE THAN PVP** * Remove Relic/Data/Scanning Bonuses * Add ability to Bridge or be bridged * Remove Laser Bonus * Change SMA to Fleet Hangar This way it could serve as a Blops Logistic ship. Now my personal opinion is that Blops are for hot drops not brawls and thus should not need/have Logistic ships with them but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5-2b for just the hull then by all means give them a logistic blops ship. Immunity to nuets? On a laser ship? Way too OP You missed the point where lasers are removed. ... Also why is it OP exactly ? Laser ships eat ton of capacitor where others not so much..
Anything that is immune to nuets is OP, the point of nuets is they drain capacitor, this hits logis that cant cap chain hard, which in this build IS the nestor, if you give it immunity to nuets you have a cap stable high DPS logi that cant be nueted out to stop its reps like other logi can. plus with the refit being within a very restricted range this thing is going to be in brawling range of hostile ships, 90% of PVP ships use some form of nuet or vampire if they have utility highs.
Not even supers are immune to Nuets, the fact is nothing is there is no reason to give it nuet immunity in its current build as such
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
877
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:10:00 -
[95] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Harvey James wrote:not if it doesn't meet its end goal The Nestor is still CCP Rises's "spruce goose". This is, what - the third revision/attempt to make the Nestor relevant again?
this will make it cheaper .. but i imagine it will do nothing for its popularity and usage .. but there isn't much else they can do with it realistically speaking ...
CCP also know this Ishtar nerf is ineffective he says just as much in the OP of the HAC thread .. but i guess they must be seen too do something .. its a stop gap nothing more and an ineffective one at that ... if they actually believe what they have said then are deluding themselves... i have proposed the easiest and most time efficient way too at least provide time for a more long term solution ...
Ishtar 10% bonus too light and medium drone damage and HP 7.5% bonus too heavy damage and HP, tracking and drone velocity 5% too sentry drone damage, tracking and optimal range 5km drone operation control range
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
CorryBasler
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
83
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:11:00 -
[96] - Quote
+1 for billion isk instant mobile depots! No longer shall we wait for the mobile depot to anchor when flying supercaps, just toss out a nestor! |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
93
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:14:00 -
[97] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote: yea but the issue is even at 1b its STILL cheaper to bring 3 guardians, and more effective since if that your only logi its getting primaried hard because of the price tag even 2-3 of them would be Dust and Cinders to a well orgnaized fleet, it lacks the tank or sensor strength plus if it kites like guardians you cant refit so there goes a big piece of your arguement. And the hole refit piece doesnt work so well if you dont have the cargo space to carry excessive amounts of guns. Once again the orca does better at that even if its slower because it has stupid cargo space for mods and such ( also still cheaper with similar tank)
A few things in response to this. 1. You are assuming that the fleet has the numbers to field 3 guardians to every nestor. 2. The Nestors can move with the DPS. For a traditional logi setup, you would probably only look at fielding a nestor if everyone else if flying pirate hulls as well. 3. It does have more sensor strength then a guardian, that being said, it is easier to jam 1 target vs 3. But this is also assuming the fleet has the people online to field 3 guardians for every nestor. 4. Even if the fleet has 1 extra set of overheatable modules in your cargohold, that still gives your fleet the ability to overheat for twice as long as the other fleet. Plus if this is fielded in highsec, it could even be a neutral nestor just for refitting, don't even use it as a logi.
If your roaming battleships you should have the numbers to field 3 guardians If everyone is flying pirate hulls you should have better logi than this thing to protect that investment It is a lot easier to jam one than 3 yes, so why not go with 3 in case they have falcons? Plus like i said guardians can give you cap too in case your being nueted out by something. If your refitting your in brawling range, logi in brawling range have a bad track record since they get scrammed and webbed and are easier to primary since odds are your going to be in optimal, the nestor isnt fast enough to kite AND maintain reasonable tank so that doctrine wont work here either.
Honestly sure the refit is nice, but its still way more effective to just use guardians, if you dont have the numbers just downgrade and use HAC's or switch to oneiros those dont need cap buddys Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Dimitryy
NerdHerd The Explicit Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:30:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:And finally, we are reducing the Nestor's signature radius a bit from the current 465m to 420m.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT17-_T3FNA |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
286
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:35:00 -
[99] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:
If your roaming battleships you should have the numbers to field 3 guardians If everyone is flying pirate hulls you should have better logi than this thing to protect that investment It is a lot easier to jam one than 3 yes, so why not go with 3 in case they have falcons? Plus like i said guardians can give you cap too in case your being nueted out by something. If your refitting your in brawling range, logi in brawling range have a bad track record since they get scrammed and webbed and are easier to primary since odds are your going to be in optimal, the nestor isnt fast enough to kite AND maintain reasonable tank so that doctrine wont work here either.
Honestly sure the refit is nice, but its still way more effective to just use guardians, if you dont have the numbers just downgrade and use HAC's or switch to oneiros those dont need cap buddys
Keep in mind, that if you field 3 nestors, its like fielding 9 guardians. When you start comparing them at this pace, this is why the small gangs could want to gravitate towards a nestor. Also needing to stay at range and sig tank isn't something that a Nestor needs to do because it's a battleship and not a cruiser.
Granted the guardian has the bonuses to cap xfer, which would mean the oneiros and the scimitar are useless logi as well then since they can't cap either. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
256
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:38:00 -
[100] - Quote
At least these changes are steps in the right direction.
What I'd like to see is for the Nestor to become sort of an "Exploration Orca".
Drop the hacking/relic bonuses since they're useless on a ship so slow. Instead, increase the scan probe bonus.
Increase the SMA to make it big enough for an Astero or Statios (I'd love to see room for both!). Give a small fleet hangar.
Beef up the remote repair range. Maybe to 500% which still won't compete with dedicated logistics ships.
I can easily see dropping the laser bonus and giving a bonus other than the Amarr resistance bonus to keep it balanced.
Instead of the 10%/level bonus to drop hit points and damage give it a bonus to range.
Give it the damn covops cloak its mission demands. It was obviosly designed by the Sisters to operate with the Stration and Astero, so it should have this capability. Give it a long lock time after cloaking or something.
My reasoning is that I see the Nestor as a stand-off sort of command and support ship. In a group, its the designated system scanner used to determine targets for the smaller ships then jump with them to lend support while they hack and or fight. For the solo player, use it to jump around the backwaters of New Eden, in low sec, if it scans down something I teresting, the player can dock and switch to the Stratios or Astero its carrying.
Now, what would be cool is if the solo player could lock it and cloak it so it doesn't get jacked. Don't they have keys anymore in the future?
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
|
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:41:00 -
[101] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Saisin wrote:Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please Being conservative with changes is exactly the way to go with their new release patterns.. not if it doesn't meet its end goal
What end goal? Your end goal of wanting to use it?
The end goal is to see the statistical usage of this specific ship rise to a level CCP deems acceptable. Doing small changes and watching what happens will tell if the end goal is achieved. If not, then more tweaks until this end goal is met and the ship finds its niche...
It will not be told by you nor me... "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Scout Vyvorant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:41:00 -
[102] - Quote
The real rebalance you need to do to the nestor is her pricetag.
I think now the price is around 1.3 bil, and for 1.3bil you can get a lot better than the nestor for any of its uses. But let's say you boost enough the drop rate of those chips, and the nestor gets around 800-700mil, then imo it's going to be totally worth, and having a ship that's a jack of all trade (but master of none) is going to be a thing. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
93
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:50:00 -
[103] - Quote
Scout Vyvorant wrote:The real rebalance you need to do to the nestor is her pricetag.
I think now the price is around 1.3 bil, and for 1.3bil you can get a lot better than the nestor for any of its uses. But let's say you boost enough the drop rate of those chips, and the nestor gets around 800-700mil, then imo it's going to be totally worth, and having a ship that's a jack of all trade (but master of none) is going to be a thing.
i've done quite a bit of market speculations in my time with eve, i doubt youll see it drop that low, maybe it will even out at 1b but i still think given its state you wont see much more use
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
877
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:57:00 -
[104] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Harvey James wrote:Saisin wrote:Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please Being conservative with changes is exactly the way to go with their new release patterns.. not if it doesn't meet its end goal What end goal? Your end goal of wanting to use it? The end goal is to see the statistical usage of this specific ship rise to a level CCP deems acceptable. Doing small changes and watching what happens will tell if the end goal is achieved. If not, then more tweaks until this end goal is met and the ship finds its niche... It will not be told by you nor me...
you don't have too take my word for it .. just read the HAC thread .... ishtars will still be used exactly as they are in the same way in the same numbers ... so tell me how does that meet the end goal here?? people would like to use other ships .. but when ishtars are so OP why would you?? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Emma Irvam
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:10:00 -
[105] - Quote
Last week I was experimenting with nestor fits for incursion logistics. On paper it does outperform an oneiros, with more rep power and cap stability, but it's 5x as expensive, and the lock time is worse. The buffer is not that great for a battleship once you have a few relays in the low slots. So for all that money what are you really gaining? Not much.
The same story is repeated in every other use case I've tried. It just doesn't do anything very well. It has no defining role.
That said, reducing the cost will make it more attractive. That's a good change.
|
Sheeana Harb
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:15:00 -
[106] - Quote
I honestly appreciate the effort that's being put in to make Nestor worthwhile battleship, but I'm still of the opinion (and have been since the ship was introduced on Sisi) that a jump drive would make Nestor A LOT more unique and desirable. Even if the jump drive was at the expense of most of its current bonuses. |
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:19:00 -
[107] - Quote
I for one am really happy about these changes, they really reflect the background of the ship, it makes sense to have a Maint Bay and fleet refitting services. I would also personally like to see an increase to the internal cargo space, as it isn't that much bigger than a Stratios, I'd love to use my Nestor for it's role as a support ship to a fleet of exploring Stratios and Asteros. |
Rena Monachica
Capital Hot Rods
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:25:00 -
[108] - Quote
How much more stuff do you want to cram into this thing?
It already has bonuses for guns, drones, tank, logi and exploration. And now another feature. It-¦s a mess |
Dentric Crendraven
DarkMatter-Industries Upholders
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:29:00 -
[109] - Quote
Amazing Changes.
Also, if you add Covert Jump Drive (Can jump to Covert Cynos) then this might just become my favorite battleship.
Note: no covops cloak and no bridging and no faster when cloaked non sense. I don't mind it having the jump capability but it should be a little different and not just a straight copy of a Black Ops. If it does not require Battleship 5's then it should not be as good as a Black Ops. |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3757
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:29:00 -
[110] - Quote
Rena Monachica wrote:How much more stuff do you want to cram into this thing? It-¦s a mess Of this, we're in total agreement. It's a Gong ShowGǪ Strip the RR capability and give it a Covert Ops cloak. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|
Haiyai Higashi
Feasible Deniability
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:31:00 -
[111] - Quote
Im looking forward to finally getting chance to try out the nestor. However something i noticed as a trend is most people want it to lose the exploration bonuses in exchange for something else. But it seems to me like it might be interesting to go the other way and expand upon its exploration side over its raw combat ability. Perhaps bumping its virus bonuses up and increasing the range of its analyzers could lead to an interesting set up (hacking the cans as you approach and then just grabbing the loot as you hit the can.) And personally i think giving it a bonus to the scan res penalty of a normal cloak could have some merit as an in between of getting covert cloaking and not. Granted my point of view is as an explorer who really wants to go beyond just using stratios, t3, and covert frigates. Make the Nestor a true exploration battleship |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
300
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:36:00 -
[112] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby. As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.
Thanks -Fozzie
Perfect change there Fozzie. That came out of the blue. But that is a very nice change which will make the ship unique and would be very valuable in fleet engagements.
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
300
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:39:00 -
[113] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:To be honest, I still can't think of a reason to use one. In almost any situation barring highsec, you could just use a carrier instead. And in highsec, you can use the far more common Orca instead.
If it cost 350mil then I could maybe see using it, but I really doubt you are going to buff the drop rate *that* drastically. Comparing a battleship to an Orca and a carrier, I think the differences are quite obvious. I expect to see this used a lot in wormholes where carriers cannot be used to easily roam about. Think of it as a mini carrier. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
639
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:41:00 -
[114] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:Give it the ability to be black ops bridged so at least that not-as-good-as-logi rep bonus might have some use If the idea is to blops bridge a bil+ logistics platform why not just bridge a Sin instead?
Zoneras wrote:This SMA a huge step in making something VERY VERY VERY useful in a niche role in wormholes. This may in fact be solving the issue with capitals being spit out in random directions after jumping and unable to refit off of one another. I wonder if that was your intention? I'm still not satisfied with having to throw another expensive ship at the problem just because the enemy is unwilling to jump through a wormhole. I'm not sure how this resolves the issue of capitals being spit out in multiple directions on jump. They are, fitted, almost as expensive as a carrier and nowhere near as useful/survivable in combat. They're also too light (and expensive) to be legitimately used as a hole rolling bs hull. There are other cheaper, heavier (read: effective) battleships for the job. In fact Blops BS hulls make for decent hole rollers (as do the pirate BS hulls) for those looking to use expensive combat BS hulls to mass holes.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Harvey James wrote:not if it doesn't meet its end goal The Nestor is still CCP Rises's "spruce goose". This is, what - the third revision/attempt to make the Nestor relevant again? ...again?
I'm right behind you |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
904
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:55:00 -
[115] - Quote
How about a cloaked velocity bonus so we can use t2 cloaks without going super slow. |
XvXTeacherVxV
Dayman Industries
100
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:10:00 -
[116] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:How about a cloaked velocity bonus so we can use t2 cloaks without going super slow.
This has been suggested and rejected by CCP because the Nestor is not allowed to travel anywhere. Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE |
Red Teufel
Phobia.
386
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:15:00 -
[117] - Quote
hoping with max implants and such you can squeeze it through the frig size only WHs. lololol that would be funny. |
Jon Joringer
Bushido.
137
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:29:00 -
[118] - Quote
Really think the ship could do with dropping the exploration roles. They're just not practical. Nobody is going to go exploring in a Nestor no matter how much the price comes down because it's a battleship. The fitting bay is pretty cool, and goes well with the idea that the Nestor is a support ship, so ramp up its RR capabilities, tank, etc.. Make it excel at being a support ship. |
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:36:00 -
[119] - Quote
Jon Joringer wrote:Really think the ship could do with dropping the exploration roles. They're just not practical. Nobody is going to go exploring in a Nestor no matter how much the price comes down because it's a battleship. The fitting bay is pretty cool, and goes well with the idea that the Nestor is a support ship, so ramp up its RR capabilities, tank, etc.. Make it excel at being a support ship. Whilst not good at the job, and as someone stubborn like me, I explore with my Nestor. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
707
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:49:00 -
[120] - Quote
The exploration bonuses were extra. If they did take them they would not replace them with anything else.
The ship continues to grow on me. I have often wanted a battleship to be the backbone of a fleet, and most are just more dps with little fleet support ability. For the PvE I do the fitting service isn't that useful, but I like all kinds of neat stuff. This qualifies. |
|
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
250
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:50:00 -
[121] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage. It definitely could use a cap bonus for what could be considered its primary role. It's starting to look more like the 'hospitalier' ship it should have been from the get-go. X |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1912
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:04:00 -
[122] - Quote
this is the nestor i want to see
Amarr Battleship Bonuses: 4% Armor resistances per level
Gallente Battleship Bonuses: 10% electronic warfare/ combat utility drone effectiveness and hitpoints per level
Role bonuses: 50% bonus to remote armor repairer amount 750% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer and Remote Capacitor Transmitter range 100% to large energy and hybrid turret damage
Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 4 turrets
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2004
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:08:00 -
[123] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:this is the nestor i want to see
Amarr Battleship Bonuses: 4% Armor resistances per level
Gallente Battleship Bonuses: 10% electronic warfare/ combat utility drone effectiveness and hitpoints per level
Role bonuses: 50% bonus to remote armor repairer amount 750% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer and Remote Capacitor Transmitter range 100% to large energy and hybrid turret damage
Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 4 turrets
I support this. Ewar drone bonus is new and interesting (mmmmm bonus'd heavy neut drones). |
Pro TIps
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:19:00 -
[124] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby. I welcome this feature, however, I was a little disappointed when I looked up the volumes of frigates and found that, nope, they are too big to fit in a 5000m3 SMB. Only a shuttle will fit.
I was hoping a salvaging ship (e.g. thrasher) or relic/data-bonused frigate hull could fit in it. This would allow a fleet-mate to utilize a stowed ship for grabbing up loot when roaming around W-space doing PVE things. Why? Rigs, of course.
Even so, I have a Nestor now and I use it in its intended fleet-support role successfully. This buff makes it a little more useful for rearming the fleet with fresh drones, switching weapons, etc. as intended, without each person having to go launch a mobile depot (trivial but time-consuming.) |
Lugia3
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
1102
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:21:00 -
[125] - Quote
Give it a blops jump drive at the very least.
With this change, Nestor is literally going to be a thanatos with waaaaay less ehp, less dps, an sma that can't actually hold anything, and no jump drive. "CCP Dolan is full of ****." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov! |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:53:00 -
[126] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Saisin wrote:Harvey James wrote:Saisin wrote:Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please Being conservative with changes is exactly the way to go with their new release patterns.. not if it doesn't meet its end goal What end goal? Your end goal of wanting to use it? The end goal is to see the statistical usage of this specific ship rise to a level CCP deems acceptable. Doing small changes and watching what happens will tell if the end goal is achieved. If not, then more tweaks until this end goal is met and the ship finds its niche... It will not be told by you nor me... you don't have too take my word for it .. just read the HAC thread .... ishtars will still be used exactly as they are in the same way in the same numbers ... so tell me how does that meet the end goal here?? people would like to use other ships .. but when ishtars are so OP why would you??
I do agree with you.. Ishtars are overpowered, and it is possible that they remain that way after Hyperion. I can't judge...
Still, this is the right way to approach the changes rather than doing a broad strike and possibly open a new set of problems. CCP have access to data that we do not have and can measure the effects of the changes, and will do another tweak in October if necessary.
But at least they will not swing the balances anymore in aWide fashion, and with often unattended consequences... At least they can more precisely measure the results now.
CCP has simply become more agile, and this is great for all of us, even if we have to suffer the ishtars dominance for one or two more releases... "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12673
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 01:09:00 -
[127] - Quote
Its gone from interesting to "oh hey well thats handy". Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
colera deldios
198
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 01:19:00 -
[128] - Quote
Man some of you people are stupid on a brand new level. A SMA and those Bonuses for holy ******* sake there is no role for this ship. It's not going to be PVP ship with those stats it's a crap 1.5b Logistic ship with hacking/probing bonuses...
Someone threw a dart at some bonuses and this crapola came out.
1) For PVE it's useless because in every aspect it's outperformed by other ships at smaller price tag. It won't be used in Incursions it won't be used in L1-L5 Missions in any space 99% of people won't be using this thing in WH space because why on earth would you for RR setups there are cheaper and more effective alternatives. You won't be using it for Exploration or 0.0 Anomalies because pretty much every other T1 Hull out performs it.
2) For PVP it's useless for fleet doctrines it makes no sense, for solo it won't be used because Rokh & Hyperion are better at that and the last time those were used was 2006. In every other PVP aspect it's outperformed by every other BS. I highly doubt someone will be brawling and using these as logis unless they are very stupid.
3) For Relic/Data Why on earth would you use this things for relics/data sites you always land 50-70km off gl spending time moving between cans you will just a be a golden target. In WH theres 10 ships 5x cheaper that can do Relic/Data sites more effectively than Nestor.
In conclusion: This ship is above useless... It won't be used in any category and no bullshit SMA size will change that.
You can either:
A) Make it a passive shield buffer ship, something that can do all non-combat WH sites solo like: WH Relic/Data/Gas/Ghost sites this way solo players have a all round platform for raiding WH creating extra content. I'm sure WH Residents will be delighted at a Nestor kill and people would be willing to risk them for the prospect of making WH income.
For this you need to change: - Armour bonus to Shield resistance bonus - Laser bonus to Shield regeneration bonus - Remove Remote Repair bonuses add Gas mining bonus (cycle reduction or increased amount)
- Give it increased cargo bag (something like 1500~)
B) Make it a PVP ship and as is at the moment it's viable to be Black Ops Logistic ship. Now Black Ops are hot drop ships and should not be used for brawls so they should not have easy logistic ship but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5b for the ship the WHY THE **** NOT.
Remove Relic/Data bonuses and add ability to bridge/jump to covert cyno. Say you drop on a ratting carrier they escalate by bringing in 2-3 more and some subcaps so it's now a minor skirmish without logis you won't stand a chance but with 2-3 Nestors on the field you might.
C) Complete overhaul..
D) Simply delete it from the game
In any case PRICE REDUCTION & 5000 or 5000000 SMA will do jack **** for this ship.
|
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
94
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 01:21:00 -
[129] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:How about a cloaked velocity bonus so we can use t2 cloaks without going super slow.
I would spend the extra 5m and get a faction one in that case, and that goes hand and hand with my proposal for making it a BLOPS a few pages back Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
colera deldios
198
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 01:21:00 -
[130] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:To be honest, I still can't think of a reason to use one. In almost any situation barring highsec, you could just use a carrier instead. And in highsec, you can use the far more common Orca instead.
If it cost 350mil then I could maybe see using it, but I really doubt you are going to buff the drop rate *that* drastically. Comparing a battleship to an Orca and a carrier, I think the differences are quite obvious. I expect to see this used a lot in wormholes where carriers cannot be used to easily roam about. Think of it as a mini carrier.
Stupidest assumption ever. It's much easier to roam WHs in T3, Cruisers, Covops and Carriers/Dreads move between them just fine and Nestor will in no case ever be a replace or even a bad substitute for a Carrier in WH or 0.0 or LS or HS. It's a useless ship and no amount in the SMA will help it. |
|
Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
371
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 01:25:00 -
[131] - Quote
and in 3 months you will see the same stats .. no one is using this ship because ...
no covert ops cloack .... good luck again ccp .. by the way seen ay changes in the drones use ?? RENAME WH systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome.
GalMIl>>ALL |
Bjor Ambramotte
Sanctuary of Shadows Honorable Third Party
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 01:34:00 -
[132] - Quote
@CCP Fozzie
In response to Jayne's concern, could the refitting service be limited to Low Sec, Null Sec, and Wormholes? That would keep this "neat" ability and drive the Nestors from the safety of highsec.
Can't wait to see the art for the requisite SoE shuttle! |
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
264
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:17:00 -
[133] - Quote
I say this on behalf of CCP: for everyone asking for a Black Ops or Cloaking bonus, **** OFF, NO IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
179
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:18:00 -
[134] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:I say this on behalf of CCP: for everyone asking for a Black Ops or Cloaking bonus, **** OFF, NO IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. So how much does CCP pay you to speak for them? |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3757
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:43:00 -
[135] - Quote
The Nestor should be geared towards wormhole space. As such, these are the traits and qualities that would make it useful - and the cost moot. What you end up with is a medium-DPS "mothership" that can extend life in wormhole space. It has an abysmal align time and speed, and even with a Covert Ops Cloak it still has to uncloak to utilize the clone vat bay, ship maintenance bay or remote repair abilities.
Attributes: -+ 6(-1) high, 6 medium, 7(+1) low; no turrets (-5) -+ Ship Maintenance Bay Capacity GǪ 5,000 m3 -+ Maximum Jump Clones GǪ 6 -+ Fuel Bay Capacity GǪ 1000 m3
Gallente Battleship bonus: -+ 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and dmage
Amarr Battleship bonus: -+ 4% bonus to all armour resistances
Role Bonus: -+ Can fit Clone Vat Bay -+ 95% reduction in Clone Vay Bay powergrid requirement -+ 50% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer amount -+ 200% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer range -+ Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device -+ Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 15 seconds I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
371
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 03:17:00 -
[136] - Quote
neat twist. Nice work +1 |
Grunnax Aurelius
Lai Dai Shadows Negative Waves
293
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 03:31:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. We have another set of balance changes to talk about today. We've been keeping a close eye on the Nestor battleship and we're planning to make a few small but significant changes to it in the Hyperion release.
The most significant change by far is that we are increasing the drop rate of the Drone Nexus chips that can be converted to Sisters of EVE ship BPCs quite dramatically. These should now drop much more often from all types of "Sentient" rogue drone commander NPCs, especially from the Sentient Alvus battleships. This should go a long way to helping bring the price of the Nestor down from its current levels.
Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
And finally, we are reducing the Nestor's signature radius a bit from the current 465m to 420m.
We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.
As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.
Thanks -Fozzie
Thank you for using my idea of the Refitting service from my Nestor thread a couple weeks ago aswell as the sig radius issue.
Bring on the Sub-Cap Slowcat
Now just give its a 200% cap transfer range aswell, go on doit, pretty please. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
250
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 03:42:00 -
[138] - Quote
Obviously the ship is going to need more done to it in future to make it worth using, and more than that, make it something unique. It should bring something new to the game and not just be another expensive mission runner (nor should it try to do everything half-assed like it does now).
Just gonna put this out there: Battleship-sized "Light" carrier (no jump drive though, relax)
Role Bonus: -+ 50% bonus to Remote Capacitor Transfer amount -+ 50% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer amount -+ 200% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer and Remote Capacitor Transfer range -+ 40,000m3 SMA. (two frigates) -+ 5000m3 corp hanger
I'm not sure what the future plans for Fighter drones are (is the Gecko the template for future fighter sizes?), but it might be interesting to allow this ship to use five of them.
X |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 03:43:00 -
[139] - Quote
I would like 25s off the recharge time, as this allows a perfectly fit nestor to run a DC2, LAR, ENAM and 100MN AB and do so stably with every other module being a cap module, no implants and all relevent skills 5 and all modules t2 without the insane neutability of a capacitor flux coil. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Kirluin
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 04:06:00 -
[140] - Quote
Hmm. With 2 seconds of lolfitting in EFT I got a 7 large rep, 100k ehp, 607 dps, cap stable nestor. with afterburner, 7 minutes of cap. T2 fit no bling except for geckos. 518 dps with gardes.
Can travel in hisec or wormholes, doesn't need a cyno alt, can roam with any fleet, and you don't need to multibox logi (ugh).
it's a great support for the kinds of small fleets I usually run with (though i would fit it differently for that.) It's not worth 1.6 bil, but I'd take a good look at it in the 500-600m range for my crew.
It's not great for every purpose (squarely aimed at small fleet support where a carrier doesn't fit), but it doesn't take much imagination to see where it would be a great option.
My only suggestion to CCP would be: don't be afraid of the fitting service. with the introduction of the mobile depot it's more of a nice convenience. Let it hold a frigate and you have a very nice"rule breaker" of a faction ship.
|
|
Grunnax Aurelius
Lai Dai Shadows Negative Waves
293
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 04:08:00 -
[141] - Quote
Galphii wrote:Obviously the ship is going to need more done to it in future to make it worth using, and more than that, make it something unique. It should bring something new to the game and not just be another expensive mission runner (nor should it try to do everything half-assed like it does now).
Just gonna put this out there: Battleship-sized "Light" carrier (no jump drive though, relax)
Role Bonus: -+ 50% bonus to Remote Capacitor Transfer amount -+ 50% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer amount -+ 200% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer and Remote Capacitor Transfer range -+ 40,000m3 SMA. (two frigates) -+ 5000m3 corp hanger
I'm not sure what the future plans for Fighter drones are (is the Gecko the template for future fighter sizes?), but it might be interesting to allow this ship to use five of them, as it could then send fighters attached to other ships and function as an exploration hub, or mothership.
I could back this, id use that fleet hanger purely for spare sentries and geckos, SLOWCAT ftw https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread |
MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 04:27:00 -
[142] - Quote
The Nestor as is could be good, but it needs to be cheaper to be worth using over the alternatives. It would need to be no more than 1 bil, and preferably much cheaper. |
Echo Gemini
Intergalactic Sunrise
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 06:41:00 -
[143] - Quote
Umm ... I can see what you guys try to achieve with Nestor, but I believe it addresses a small niche in terms of gameplay. I've never seen a Nestor flying so far. I know it exists and I know that some people buy it. In terms of usefulness, yeah tweak it, you could give it gas mining bonus. It won't make a difference.
Anyway, you could identify in-game players that use Nestor's and ask them for feedback. On forums everyone has a different opinion. |
Taupwnz
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 06:43:00 -
[144] - Quote
Alundil wrote: If the idea is to blops bridge a bil+ logistics platform why not just bridge a Sin instead?
SP matters. For Sin you need way more skills, than for Nestor. So as a newbie in BL drops you can fly only in what? Stealth Bomber? |
Tovanis
Solar Vista. Dead Space Syndicate
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 08:37:00 -
[145] - Quote
definately something to perhaps boost slightly the potential of logi (as the current bonuses help, but could maybe use some more love?)..... I have 2 nestors, one i have setup for remote armor repping when doing missions with my corp mates, and the other i use at the moment (just merely experimenting with the other nestor) as a drone boat, but as i said, i am still experimenting with it. However, the logi application is nice, given that it can do some pretty good logi and still have a chance at surviving. :D |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8747
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 08:37:00 -
[146] - Quote
Oh, and if it hasn't been mentioned already, it will probably have to be banned from the Alliance Tournament now.
Being able to refit is gamebreakingly overpowered in that particular context. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Maxwell Smiles
Exiled Kings The Fearless Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 08:53:00 -
[147] - Quote
Turn it into a True Exploration Ship Give it a POS Bubble Say 12km Wide and a fuel bay that can last up to a week and make the SMA large enough to hold a T3, mining barge, a covert ops and a bomber. People can then fly into a wormhole pos the ship up scan down sites jump into the t3 and run them turning it into a true exploration ship. When there done they can they can then jump out.
|
mr stephenson
Dodgy at Best
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 09:20:00 -
[148] - Quote
someone mentioned earlier that when warping to hack sites the issue with this ship is that its to slow to get to hack containers. would a bonus to analyzer range work ? i know the ship still has to reach the container to loot but u can be hacking while approaching it. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 10:10:00 -
[149] - Quote
Maxwell Smiles wrote:Turn it into a True Exploration Ship Give it a POS Bubble Say 12km Wide and a fuel bay that can last up to a week and make the SMA large enough to hold a T3, mining barge, a covert ops and a bomber. People can then fly into a wormhole pos the ship up scan down sites jump into the t3 and run them turning it into a true exploration ship. When there done they can they can then jump out.
Just load an inty with a small tower does the same job for cheaper |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1468
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 10:32:00 -
[150] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Oh, and if it hasn't been mentioned already, it will probably have to be banned from the Alliance Tournament now.
Being able to refit is gamebreakingly overpowered in that particular context. This update is after the AT isn't it? So that's more a note for next year assuming they keep it. |
|
Rammel Kas
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:10:00 -
[151] - Quote
I like the idea of re-imagining the Nestor. Yes the price is a road block to even trying it out in different roles. Let alone trying to convince any smaller alliance FC to pay SRP for something like this on a regular basis.
A mini-carrier that doesn't require years to train into can maybe turn the cliff that currently stands in front of new alliances into a more approachable slope. While it would still obviously play second fiddle if there is an actual capital on field. At least the side with the Nestors won't just have to blue ball or simply dock up or leave without giving it a go, assuming other factors are about equal or approachable. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
103
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:33:00 -
[152] - Quote
Here you go peeps. Go grab three of these and an all cap xfer Guardian. Set up large xfers into the Guardian. Guardian xfers back out into the Nestors and enjoy having the equivalent of eight Guardians worth of rep. Will be good to see how far down in price these come. I've always wanted one but couldn't justify it at current costs.
Note: Is allergic to dreadnoughts.
[Nestor, Nestor fit]
Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Large Micro Jump Drive ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Targeting System Subcontroller I |
colera deldios
200
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:57:00 -
[153] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:Here you go peeps. Go grab three of these and an all cap xfer Guardian. Set up large xfers into the Guardian. Guardian xfers back out into the Nestors and enjoy having the equivalent of eight Guardians worth of rep. Will be good to see how far down in price these come. I've always wanted one but couldn't justify it at current costs.
Note: Is allergic to dreadnoughts.
[Nestor, Nestor fit]
Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Large Micro Jump Drive ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Targeting System Subcontroller I
Yea this will work perfect for the -5 Class WH |
Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
282
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 12:26:00 -
[154] - Quote
In my opinion it is remaining relatively "meh" for now. It would have had pretty nice niche if mobile depot would not be in a game but with mobile depot being pretty damn cheap and pretty low volume the nestors refitting ability is only relevant in a very small niche where you cant wait around the mobile depot timer or want to refit multiple ships with very very low subspace speed (i.e., cant scatter in reasonable speed to deploy their own mobile depot) in close proximity in a hurry but do not have a carrier at hand but happen to have a nestor.
Just get around to making it a T1 blops already. Rest of the sisters ships are equivalents of t1 cov ops and t1 recon ships so making Nestor a T1 version of the BLOPS would make sense. Then at least it would have the blops bridge and jump drive to ninja around (although that would be pretty much useless for the wormholes). Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1723
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 12:28:00 -
[155] - Quote
Again, these changes don't go far enough IMO. The sig radius change is insignificant and should be reduced even further, and the mass should be reduced more.
Btw Fozzie, it's funny that wormhole space needed fundamental changes to justify the Nestor. +1 |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
475
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 12:42:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. We have another set of balance changes to talk about today. We've been keeping a close eye on the Nestor battleship and we're planning to make a few small but significant changes to it in the Hyperion release.
The most significant change by far is that we are increasing the drop rate of the Drone Nexus chips that can be converted to Sisters of EVE ship BPCs quite dramatically. These should now drop much more often from all types of "Sentient" rogue drone commander NPCs, especially from the Sentient Alvus battleships. This should go a long way to helping bring the price of the Nestor down from its current levels.
Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
And finally, we are reducing the Nestor's signature radius a bit from the current 465m to 420m.
We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.
As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.
Thanks -Fozzie
Still garbage.
Im a wormholler and an FC.
I will not take 2 nestors over 2 guardians, or over 2 proteuses in my PvP fleet. Why would I? To refit mid-combat? Lol? Have you seen speed of fights in wormholes? Engagements are over in 5min or less, its not your tidi null-sec brawl where pilots have all the time in the world to refit their 5mil hp super-carriers.
For PvE, I'd have to be ******** to use this trashcan to scan and hack sites instead of you know, a scanning/hacking tengu.
In short, epic fail.
Go back to drawing board, do 2 things:
1) Redesign visual look COMPLETELY. 2) Completely rethink roles. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1539
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 14:34:00 -
[157] - Quote
Nestor doe snto need a boost. What is needed is a nerf to logistic cruiser (T1 and T2). Suddenly you will start loving the nestor. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Corben Arctus
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 14:49:00 -
[158] - Quote
I know a certain multiboxer who will be happy about this |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
371
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:09:00 -
[159] - Quote
After my initial excitement wore off this change doesn't do much to get people to use it...
I did some refitting with the balances in mind and even if it dropped to 500 mil its role could be better filled by a T1 logistics cruiser (repair), and if you fit it for damage its still nowhere near the other pirate battleships, the lasers do a pathetic amount of DPS, the drones do better. If you try to fit it to balance DPS against rep power, a domi is still a better choice.
Again, while refitting is neat: I have to ask what's the point when mobile depots are so cheap? The extra storage room may be nice but I can't think of a reason I'd need the space unless I'm going to fill it with cap boosters which would be niche at best.
Without more lows, power grid, or cap/cap recharge this guy doesn't do anything well enough to warrant inclusion in any fleet or solo activity... |
Mac Zehn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:15:00 -
[160] - Quote
Give it a covert jump drive and allow it to fill a logi roll for black op bs gangs. |
|
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:26:00 -
[161] - Quote
Ok a little confused, I get that this is not a must have ship as laid out, but I can not see it as horrible.
First in some cases the price is an issue, to some people it simply not a barrier.
Second, if it can beat the guardian on pure rep power (with limited range) it would seem their are cases when it would replace one or more guardians in a logistics wing and be a plus to the group (since pilots are often the limiting factor).
Third it can do some damage with 125 mb and +50% sentry drones that can be assigned to help the fleet (guardians can not).
Fourth, It would seem to have a few spare mids to do carry things to annoy the enemy.
Fifth, refitted for damage and using heavy drones is it really that far behind a Domi out side point blank range? (not a good use of the ship, but with refitting easier may be the right thing to do at the time.
Again at 1.2 bil, it is not cost efficient, but in limited roles it would seem to be better and some people will pay a lot more to get a bit more out of their most limited resource, Pilots. |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
597
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:41:00 -
[162] - Quote
nestor needs more cap. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
951
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:42:00 -
[163] - Quote
Oh look a "Just add a maintenance bay" tweak.
The Nestor sucks because it is outclassed by ships a fraction of its price. Even after the changes a Domi is almost always going to be a better combat ship, better in an RR fleet, better in survivability against the price point, EVEN if you halve the price of the Nestor. It will never be an exploratory vessel because it is to slow, it can't cloak, frigates and cruisers do it better at a fraction of the cost.
Just make the thing a Black Ops Logistics ship and be done with it. Get rid of the drone bay in exchange for a fuel bay. Give it a jump drive and let it fill a role that does not exist currently in the game. You have an opportunity to completely change the dynamic of Black Ops Fleets.
BTW Maintenance bays should be removed from the game anyway. People can use MDU's now, and the only reason there is a perception of Carriers being to strong is because of their ability to refit on the fly. Best just to remove them all. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
179
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:59:00 -
[164] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote:Ok a little confused, I get that this is not a must have ship as laid out, but I can not see it as horrible.
First in some cases the price is an issue, to some people it simply not a barrier.
Second, if it can beat the guardian on pure rep power (with limited range) it would seem their are cases when it would replace one or more guardians in a logistics wing and be a plus to the group (since pilots are often the limiting factor).
Third it can do some damage with 125 mb and +50% sentry drones that can be assigned to help the fleet (guardians can not).
Fourth, It would seem to have a few spare mids to do carry things to annoy the enemy.
Fifth, refitted for damage and using heavy drones is it really that far behind a Domi out side point blank range? (not a good use of the ship, but with refitting easier may be the right thing to do at the time.
Again at 1.2 bil, it is not cost efficient, but in limited roles it would seem to be better and some people will pay a lot more to get a bit more out of their most limited resource, Pilots. I'm coming around. If the Nestor was as cheap as a mach is currently, I would use it in certain situations. |
Heat-seeking Moisture Missile
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:13:00 -
[165] - Quote
I guess I'm confused as to why the Nestor has a remote rep bonus in the first place. Have you looked into giving it another bonus instead of this one?
It seems to me the Nestor was doomed from the start. By allowing covert ops cloaks on the Astero and the Stratios, you painted yourself into a corner, CCP. What role should the BS play in the SOE ships. I don't think you clearly set out that purpose before you started releasing the lineup.
The Nestor just seems like a victim of 'piece-meal' planning.
@Mario
Mario Putzo wrote:Oh look a "Just add a maintenance bay" tweak.
Indeed.
|
progodlegend
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
168
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:13:00 -
[166] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:Here you go peeps. Go grab three of these and an all cap xfer Guardian. Set up large xfers into the Guardian. Guardian xfers back out into the Nestors and enjoy having the equivalent of eight Guardians worth of rep. Will be good to see how far down in price these come. I've always wanted one but couldn't justify it at current costs.
Note: Is allergic to dreadnoughts.
[Nestor, Nestor fit]
Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Large Micro Jump Drive ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Targeting System Subcontroller I
This guy gets it, but there are ways to do it with out needing the guardian to cap transfer it.
Two hints: Large Egress port maximizer rigs Talisman implants
However, in general you are on the right track, I mean that fit needs a good bit of work, but you're in the right frame of mind. I can't believe no one understands how powerful a 50% bonus to remote repair amount really is. It's quite possibly one of the most overpowered ship bonuses in the game. And it has a 4% resist bonus? Damnnnnnn.
This has been your friendly CSM pvp representative, stopping in with advice. |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:16:00 -
[167] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Oh look a "Just add a maintenance bay" tweak.
The Nestor sucks because it is outclassed by ships a fraction of its price. Even after the changes a Domi is almost always going to be a better combat ship, better in an RR fleet, better in survivability against the price point, EVEN if you halve the price of the Nestor. It will never be an exploratory vessel because it is to slow, it can't cloak, frigates and cruisers do it better at a fraction of the cost.
Just make the thing a Black Ops Logistics ship and be done with it. Get rid of the drone bay in exchange for a fuel bay. Give it a jump drive and let it fill a role that does not exist currently in the game. You have an opportunity to completely change the dynamic of Black Ops Fleets.
BTW Maintenance bays should be removed from the game anyway. People can use MDU's now, and the only reason there is a perception of Carriers being to strong is because of their ability to refit on the fly. Best just to remove them all.
if you replaced some of the DOmis in a group with a some Nestors the total rep power of the group goes up, in exchange for some applied damage against smaller ships. The Nestor has more native Armor and Structure, gets a resist bonus and will no have a lower sig radius, so its tank should be better, than the Domi.
This does not apply to situations where isk efficient applies obviously since trading a two nesters for five enemy domis will leave you on the short end.
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
477
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:29:00 -
[168] - Quote
As a C6 wormholler, and PvP FC, I say Nestor is still Trash, with a capital T. Not worth flying even it costed 100mil.
What is it supposed to do?
Logi PvP? 2 guardians are better then 2 nestors in ALL categories. Tankier, faster, better reps and range, less mass, less sig, more sensor strength, cheaper... Show me an idiot who will drop 2 nestors with max rep range of 20km over 2 guardians with 25% better reps and range of 70km.
DPS PvP with refit ability? In Wormhole fights arent Tidi fests where huge fleets have all the time in the world to refit. Engagements happen in 2-5 minute spans. Refitting in fast-paced combat for smaller gangs is not feasible, nor desirable. Im not going to mess up my fleet by telling people to refit guns or tank in the middle of fast-flowing T3 combat. Every other situation is covered by mobile depots or correct fits prior to departure.
Wormhole PvE? In a C6-C5 marauders and T3s outperform Nestor in all categories - dps and hacking/scanning. In a C4 - and below, regular Dominixes and battlecruisers are sufficient, and better.
Roams from WH to null? Battleships on roams? Seriously? Good luck with that, I will stick to HACs and Logi, thanks.
Solo Daytriping into C3-C4 WH space from K-space? Repping your sentry drones with small reppers and ninjaing loot? Trying to rep geckos and failing cause small rep range is like 10km? Horrible capacitor comes in for the win! No spider cap chain - no repping on this ship, plain and simple. So this is out too.
The ONLY use for this ship is a brick-tanked instant mobile depot/cyno/bait for dread/super-capital fleets in null-sec.
Which is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in wormholes, and everywhere else.
Sorry Fozzie, much as you like this ship, its garbage. Absolute, horrible, garbage. Visually, and role-wise.
Stop trying to fix what cant be fixed; take it out of the game, redesign the whole thing from scratch - start with graphics redesign, then pick a combat or PvE role, and flesh it out. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
477
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:34:00 -
[169] - Quote
progodlegend wrote:BayneNothos wrote:Here you go peeps. Go grab three of these and an all cap xfer Guardian. Set up large xfers into the Guardian. Guardian xfers back out into the Nestors and enjoy having the equivalent of eight Guardians worth of rep. Will be good to see how far down in price these come. I've always wanted one but couldn't justify it at current costs.
Note: Is allergic to dreadnoughts.
[Nestor, Nestor fit]
Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Large Micro Jump Drive ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Targeting System Subcontroller I This guy gets it, but there are ways to do it with out needing the guardian to cap transfer it. Two hints: Large Egress port maximizer rigs Talisman implants However, in general you are on the right track, I mean that fit needs a good bit of work, but you're in the right frame of mind. I can't believe no one understands how powerful a 50% bonus to remote repair amount really is. It's quite possibly one of the most overpowered ship bonuses in the game. And it has a 4% resist bonus? Damnnnnnn. This has been your friendly CSM pvp representative, stopping in with advice.
What are you smoking? Run the eft numbers, 2 guardians put out 20% more reps then 1 nestor and 1 feeder guardian, or 2 spider nestors. And 2 guardians do it for fraction of the price, do it up to 70km vs 21km, are faster, tankier, hardier vs ECM, lock 2 times faster, and have way less sig.
And if you need talisman sets to make a ship work, thats an automatic fail.
Thanks no thanks.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:34:00 -
[170] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:As a C6 wormholler, and PvP FC, I say Nestor is still Trash, with a capital T. Not worth flying even it costed 100mil.
What is it supposed to do?
Logi PvP? 2 guardians are better then 2 nestors in ALL categories. Tankier, faster, better reps and range, less mass, less sig, more sensor strength, cheaper... Show me an idiot who will drop 2 nestors with max rep range of 20km over 2 guardians with 25% better reps and range of 70km.
DPS PvP with refit ability? In Wormhole fights arent Tidi fests where huge fleets have all the time in the world to refit. Engagements happen in 2-5 minute spans. Refitting in fast-paced combat for smaller gangs is not feasible, nor desirable. Im not going to mess up my fleet by telling people to refit guns or tank in the middle of fast-flowing T3 combat. Every other situation is covered by mobile depots or correct fits prior to departure.
Wormhole PvE? In a C6-C5 marauders and T3s outperform Nestor in all categories - dps and hacking/scanning. In a C4 - and below, regular Dominixes and battlecruisers are sufficient, and better.
Roams from WH to null? Battleships on roams? Seriously? Good luck with that, I will stick to HACs and Logi, thanks.
Solo Daytriping into C3-C4 WH space from K-space? Repping your sentry drones with small reppers and ninjaing loot? Trying to rep geckos and failing cause small rep range is like 10km? Horrible capacitor comes in for the win! No spider cap chain - no repping on this ship, plain and simple. So this is out too.
The ONLY use for this ship is a brick-tanked instant mobile depot/cyno/bait for dread/super-capital fleets in null-sec.
Which is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in wormholes, and everywhere else.
Sorry Fozzie, much as you like this ship, its garbage. Absolute, horrible, garbage. Visually, and role-wise.
Stop trying to fix what cant be fixed; take it out of the game, redesign the whole thing from scratch - start with graphics redesign, then pick a combat or PvE role, and flesh it out.
Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2009
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:39:00 -
[171] - Quote
progodlegend wrote:BayneNothos wrote:Here you go peeps. Go grab three of these and an all cap xfer Guardian. Set up large xfers into the Guardian. Guardian xfers back out into the Nestors and enjoy having the equivalent of eight Guardians worth of rep. Will be good to see how far down in price these come. I've always wanted one but couldn't justify it at current costs.
Note: Is allergic to dreadnoughts.
[Nestor, Nestor fit]
Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Large Micro Jump Drive ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Targeting System Subcontroller I This guy gets it, but there are ways to do it with out needing the guardian to cap transfer it. Two hints: Large Egress port maximizer rigs Talisman implants However, in general you are on the right track, I mean that fit needs a good bit of work, but you're in the right frame of mind. I can't believe no one understands how powerful a 50% bonus to remote repair amount really is. It's quite possibly one of the most overpowered ship bonuses in the game. And it has a 4% resist bonus? Damnnnnnn. This has been your friendly CSM pvp representative, stopping in with advice. All very well and good, but that's just as true now as it is with the proposed hyperion changes. So let's ask the easy questions (cause that's what I'm good at) : Why aren't people already doing this?
Simple Answer: because an archon does it better (and humorously enough - the archon hull is currently cheaper than the nestor, though I am obviously ignoring fittings).
The Nestor is currently sitting at 1.3-1.4 bil. Maybe, maybe with these changes it will go down to 1 bil. I doubt it, but w/e. And even than, it still won't be used in that price bracket. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
477
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:43:00 -
[172] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.
Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.
For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2009
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:45:00 -
[173] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.
Serious question: Do you really see yourself using one of these if the price goes down to 1 bil (before fittings)? Why wouldn't you just use an archon?
Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.
The nestor is actually terrible in that role, an archon does it better in every way: tank, cap, rep, dps, jump drive, cost effectiveness. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:48:00 -
[174] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.
Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe. For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better.
Any roaming fleet from frigate up. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:51:00 -
[175] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: Serious question: Do you really see yourself using one of these if the price goes down to 1 bil (before fittings)? Why wouldn't you just use an archon?
Carriers cant roam, cant use gates, cant warp quickly or do any of the other things a subcap can.
PotatoOverdose wrote: Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
Give it a few months and if CCPs maths is right it should land around the same price as a vindi. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jon Joringer
Bushido.
137
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:52:00 -
[176] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:1) Redesign visual look COMPLETELY. Nestor is beautiful. Leave its looks alone. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2009
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:53:00 -
[177] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.
Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe. For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better. Any roaming fleet from frigate up. I'm sure your frig pilots will enjoy waiting an extra minute on each gate, every gate for your nestor to catch up. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
477
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:54:00 -
[178] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.
Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe. For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better. Any roaming fleet from frigate up.
With 20km rep range? And alignment time of 10s? And warp speed of 2.5 AU? Thats funny, especially in frigate roams. I will always take guardians/scimis over this. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:01:00 -
[179] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.
Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe. For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better. Any roaming fleet from frigate up. I'm sure your frig pilots will enjoy waiting an extra minute on each gate, every gate for your nestor to catch up.
I currently fly megathrons in harpy fleets and keep up just fine. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:03:00 -
[180] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.
Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe. For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better. Any roaming fleet from frigate up. With 20km rep range? And alignment time of 10s? And warp speed of 2.5 AU? Thats funny, especially in frigate roams. I will always take guardians/scimis over this.
Frigate gangs keep within 10km of the FC, we have nanofibers use them, Warp speed of 5.55 will be reached by battleships. Take scimis on that roam and it only needs to get 3au warp speeds which is easy. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2009
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:05:00 -
[181] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
Give it a few months and if CCPs maths is right it should land around the same price as a vindi. Two things: 1) I can't remember the last time I saw a (pvp) vindi in null. I'm sure it happens somewhere, but I haven't seen it. Doesn't exactly bode well for the nestor, does it?
2) A vindi is currently 854 mil in jita. In order for a nestor to go down to 854 mil from 1.4 bil, you would need to depress SoE LP/Isk conversion and Nexus Chip/isk conversion by 39%. This would imply a Stratios goes from 289 mil --> 176 mil and an Astero goes from 78 mil --> 47 mil.
While I would love to see a stratios that is cheaper than an ishtar, it ain't gonna happen. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:09:00 -
[182] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Two things: 1) I can't remember the last time I saw a vindi in null. I'm sure it happens somewhere, but I haven't seen it. Doesn't exactly bode well for the nestor, does it?
Why not? The vindi is a powerhouse of pain and suffering. Just because people lack the nuts to fly it doesn't mean its underpowered.
PotatoOverdose wrote: 2) A vindi is currently 854 mil in jita. In order for a nestor to go down to 854 mil from 1.4 bil, you would need to depress SoE LP/Isk conversion and Nexus Chip/isk conversion by 39%. This would imply a Stratios goes from 289 mil --> 176 mil and an Astero goes from 78 mil --> 47 mil.
While I would love to see a stratios that is cheaper than an ishtar, it ain't gonna happen.
How do you know? CCP just stated they are making it easier and cheaper to get. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2009
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:22:00 -
[183] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
How do you know? CCP just stated they are making it easier and cheaper to get.
Care to make a wager?
Two months, if the nestor is down to 854 mil or less, I'll buy you one. If the Nestor is above 854 mil, you buy me one. Sound good? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12682
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:36:00 -
[184] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:
How do you know? CCP just stated they are making it easier and cheaper to get.
Care to make a wager? Two months, if the nestor is down to 854 mil or less, I'll buy you one. If the Nestor is above 854 mil, you buy me one. Sound good?
No because I am expecting it to be around a billion which is reasonable. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
282
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:43:00 -
[185] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: 2) A vindi is currently 854 mil in jita. In order for a nestor to go down to 854 mil from 1.4 bil, you would need to depress SoE LP/Isk conversion and Nexus Chip/isk conversion by 39%. This would imply a Stratios goes from 289 mil --> 176 mil and an Astero goes from 78 mil --> 47 mil.
While I would love to see a stratios that is cheaper than an ishtar, it ain't gonna happen.
If I understood the first post correct CCP is increasing the drop rate of the battleship chips from faction drones. So I would not excpect the price of the SOE cruiser and frigate to change much other than the regular market pressures.
No one in their right mind was taking Nestors from the LP store anyway.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
477
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:53:00 -
[186] - Quote
OK, so, looking over community feedback, we have one or two die-hard supporters of the nestor, and everyone else disproves of the change, and the ship in general.
CCP, back to you |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Rim Worlds Protectorate
148
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:55:00 -
[187] - Quote
progodlegend wrote:I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.
If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.
You guys got to think outside of the box :).
Subcap sized/gate traveling Wreckingball if fit right :P |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Rim Worlds Protectorate
148
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:56:00 -
[188] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
Give it a few months and if CCPs maths is right it should land around the same price as a vindi. Two things: 1) I can't remember the last time I saw a (pvp) vindi in null. I'm sure it happens somewhere, but I haven't seen it. Doesn't exactly bode well for the nestor, does it? 2) A vindi is currently 854 mil in jita. In order for a nestor to go down to 854 mil from 1.4 bil, you would need to depress SoE LP/Isk conversion and Nexus Chip/isk conversion by 39%. This would imply a Stratios goes from 289 mil --> 176 mil and an Astero goes from 78 mil --> 47 mil. While I would love to see a stratios that is cheaper than an ishtar, it ain't gonna happen.
LOL Have you visited provi? I see PVP vindi's all over the place getting dropped. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12683
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:57:00 -
[189] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:OK, so, looking over community feedback, we have one or two die-hard supporters of the nestor, and everyone else disproves of the change, and the ship in general.
CCP, back to you
We have the same people who didn't like the marauder changes vs the people who actually fly battleships in pvp. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
953
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:07:00 -
[190] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Oh look a "Just add a maintenance bay" tweak.
The Nestor sucks because it is outclassed by ships a fraction of its price. Even after the changes a Domi is almost always going to be a better combat ship, better in an RR fleet, better in survivability against the price point, EVEN if you halve the price of the Nestor. It will never be an exploratory vessel because it is to slow, it can't cloak, frigates and cruisers do it better at a fraction of the cost.
Just make the thing a Black Ops Logistics ship and be done with it. Get rid of the drone bay in exchange for a fuel bay. Give it a jump drive and let it fill a role that does not exist currently in the game. You have an opportunity to completely change the dynamic of Black Ops Fleets.
BTW Maintenance bays should be removed from the game anyway. People can use MDU's now, and the only reason there is a perception of Carriers being to strong is because of their ability to refit on the fly. Best just to remove them all. if you replaced some of the DOmis in a group with a some Nestors the total rep power of the group goes up, in exchange for some applied damage against smaller ships. The Nestor has more native Armor and Structure, gets a resist bonus and will no have a lower sig radius, so its tank should be better, than the Domi. This does not apply to situations where isk efficient applies obviously since trading a two nesters for five enemy domis will leave you on the short end.
It is still not cost effective, I can throw away 5 Domi's for the price of a Nestor. That is the number one reason it is an underused ship. Its cost keeps it out of play, and in order to make it comparable cost effective against other "like" ships it would need to come down to 300-400m which will likely never ever happen.
The simplest and easiest way to make this ship effective is to push it into a role that is currently not being filled by other ships, make it worth its cost. As I said Black Ops logistics is currently a role that is not filled, you can gimmick up some ships to do it, you could run logi T3's or heck even RR Sins. but the role of dedicated logi for black ops is nonexistent atm. The Nestor is the perfect fit and its ship line supports the role of a Black Ops logistics vessel.
Its current ship bonuses are what keeps it out of play, they do not stack up against the cost and never will as long as there are other much much cheaper ships to fill that same role.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5273
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:22:00 -
[191] - Quote
Kudos to the developers on the Nestor... for trying. I think they are just as painted into a corner in balancing and role-ing this ship as the players are in finding a role for it.
The first problem may have come when the Nestor departed from the template of the SoE modus operandi of the Astero and Stratios. Should have seen that coming when there was no BC hull too. There should have been a BC-sized hull along the lines of the frigate and cruiser, with comparable capabilities, and then see what happened with that. Perhaps, along the lines of other battle cruisers, have link capabilities or some specialized link capabilities where scanning, hacking, etc are known ("hack booster", etc.)
But that did not happen.
So here comes the Nestor. If I found a way to transmit email on tachyons and send an image of an SoE battleship to myself 5 years ago, I would have been stoked. If I sent the stats on it, I would have been confused.
Like now.
The Nestor was a departure. An expensive one to boot. For the price of it, it should be able to warp cloaked, but was there a fear of screaming and crying over imbalance from people who already invest in the blackops? The Nestor does not compare in any respect but even at a stretch, a "logi capable BLOPS ship" would not be a bad thing. (and I hate BLOPS drop as much as anybody else TBH)
The frigate and cruiser had a dose of SoE backstory and mission to it. Then the Nestor comes as a "wormhole ship". Yet players were honing specialized wormhole fits with other hulls since 2009. If the Nestor was introduced in 2009 or early 2010 it would have been great. But now here comes a ship that's quite expensive yet there are other and far cheaper ships that do the same job.
At this point I can't even say what the Nestor should have or be able to do, or what I could do with it. The worst part is the price. It's a gank magnet. I've been to hostile space in T1 exploration fit battle cruisers and seldom come home empty handed and have seen a lot of crews go by with little more than a glance with combat probes. But if they see a Nestor on D-scan, they'll batphone it. It was bad enough with "ahhh an astero on D-scan! Let's kill it! It's only a frigate but that's a boost of my stats and I can kill a frigate!" and now the Nestor "Hey guys, a Nestor! Drop what you are doing!".
No thanks. I can prevent being a target of opportunity, a matter of doing something dumb on my part that keeps me from doing what I'm out there to do. But being in a Nestor means stat-hungry players who would normally pass me up will be gunning for me especially..
... in a ship that can't warp cloaked and has the same hacking/anal bonuses as other ships already in use (not even considering rigging). Read: do the job cheaper.
The fitting bay is a good idea. Anything that adds value to an already expensive hull is a good thing. But this also makes it a ship more geared for group play. All well and good but now it's a juicy AWOX prize and BS level hit points (being a BS) on something that has to be exposed to other players means I would not use this ship unless everybody I was playing with were in the same RL room with me and known as a best friend since high school.
In due time I think this ship will find a place and a role. Hopefully it's not so written off by then that positive changes are left unnoticed.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:42:00 -
[192] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Airto TLA wrote:[quote=Mario Putzo]Oh look a "Just add a maintenance bay" tweak.
(Stuff)
This does not apply to situations where isk efficient applies obviously since trading a two nesters for five enemy domis will leave you on the short end.
It is still not cost effective, I can throw away 5 Domi's for the price of a Nestor. That is the number one reason it is an underused ship. Its cost keeps it out of play, and in order to make it comparable cost effective against other "like" ships it would need to come down to 300-400m which will likely never ever happen. The simplest and easiest way to make this ship effective is to push it into a role that is currently not being filled by other ships, make it worth its cost. As I said Black Ops logistics is currently a role that is not filled, you can gimmick up some ships to do it, you could run logi T3's or heck even RR Sins. but the role of dedicated logi for black ops is nonexistent atm. The Nestor is the perfect fit and its ship line supports the role of a Black Ops logistics vessel. Its current ship bonuses are what keeps it out of play, they do not stack up against the cost and never will as long as there are other much much cheaper ships to fill that same role.
As I said the question at the moment is not is it cost effective, the question is the Nestor completely trash? The answer would depend on situations like: if two of your pilots in a 15-20 ship Domi group to switch to Nestors, will you become a stronger group. Not that you will have a 20 ship Nestor group instead. It would seem from eyeballing it the two Nestors will make your spider tank stronger and the Nestors are tougher, add another refit option in exchange for a little less RW DPS. And if you really want to win and could care less about the money, this seems to a valid option. With prices coming down, it will fall in more peoples toolbox of possible fleet comps. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
300
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:46:00 -
[193] - Quote
At least it wont be the worst battleship, that place is reserved for the bhargest.
In all seriousness though, I really like the idea of a fitting bay along with repping ability and good drone dps. If Ccp could be lazer focused with sticking t this concept then we d have a very nice unique battleship. |
Kirluin
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:56:00 -
[194] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:OK, so, looking over community feedback, we have one or two die-hard supporters of the nestor, and everyone else disproves of the change, and the ship in general.
CCP, back to you We have the same people who didn't like the marauder changes vs the people who actually fly battleships in pvp.
This. Remember all that marauder hate?
Cost is holding the nestor back. Get it into the Navy Geddon/Rattlesnake price range and watch. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
256
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:59:00 -
[195] - Quote
If you want to make the Nestor commonly used, give it a 5000m3 cargo bay instead so you can run two cap boosters to fuel the remote reps for an extended period.
It's already a 1000 DPS Oneiros, the main problem is it can only be that for a couple minutes until the cap boosters run out. |
Draconus Lofwyr
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 19:25:00 -
[196] - Quote
another direction for the nestor could be a fun new role, a "white ops" ship
allow the ship maint array to fit up to a frig in size, but then only allow SoE ships in the array. so you can carry one SoE frig.
provide on grid fleet bonus for maneuverability and speed boost for rescuing trapped ships.
and provide a new module only usable on the nestor that will interdict any ewar functionality of the targeted ship or deployable, (shuts down scrams, bubbles, tp's, webs) but doubles the effect of the same ewar directed at the nestor.
give the big boy the ability to act as a sacrificial lamb to rescue a tackled ship.
possibly even the ability to have a specialized jump drive that can jump to a tackled fleet member.
make it the wild card in a conflict |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
881
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 19:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:another direction for the nestor could be a fun new role, a "white ops" ship
allow the ship maint array to fit up to a frig in size, but then only allow SoE ships in the array. so you can carry one SoE frig.
provide on grid fleet bonus for maneuverability and speed boost for rescuing trapped ships.
and provide a new module only usable on the nestor that will interdict any ewar functionality of the targeted ship or deployable, (shuts down scrams, bubbles, tp's, webs) but doubles the effect of the same ewar directed at the nestor.
give the big boy the ability to act as a sacrificial lamb to rescue a tackled ship.
possibly even the ability to have a specialized jump drive that can jump to a tackled fleet member.
make it the wild card in a conflict
that kind of sounds like you want it too have warfare links .. skirmish and information warfare links Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Draconus Lofwyr
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 19:40:00 -
[198] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Draconus Lofwyr wrote:another direction for the nestor could be a fun new role, a "white ops" ship
allow the ship maint array to fit up to a frig in size, but then only allow SoE ships in the array. so you can carry one SoE frig.
provide on grid fleet bonus for maneuverability and speed boost for rescuing trapped ships.
and provide a new module only usable on the nestor that will interdict any ewar functionality of the targeted ship or deployable, (shuts down scrams, bubbles, tp's, webs) but doubles the effect of the same ewar directed at the nestor.
give the big boy the ability to act as a sacrificial lamb to rescue a tackled ship.
possibly even the ability to have a specialized jump drive that can jump to a tackled fleet member.
make it the wild card in a conflict that kind of sounds like you want it too have warfare links .. skirmish and information warfare links
not exactly, warfare links improve fleet members, this is more of a targets shutdown of one ship (can even limit the module to only fit one) as for the skirmish, it could be considered a specialized skirmish, or even a targeted skirmish if needed, you can target one ship to boost its maneuverability and velocity (possibly even with the ability to pierce supers immunity at some sort of cost). |
Farnie Podiene
Aliastra Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 19:53:00 -
[199] - Quote
hmm only 5k Ship Maintenance Bay? ..for 1 shuttle |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1183
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:40:00 -
[200] - Quote
Kirluin wrote:baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:OK, so, looking over community feedback, we have one or two die-hard supporters of the nestor, and everyone else disproves of the change, and the ship in general.
CCP, back to you We have the same people who didn't like the marauder changes vs the people who actually fly battleships in pvp. This. Remember all that marauder hate? Cost is holding the nestor back. Get it into the Navy Geddon/Rattlesnake price range and watch.
Faction/pirate toys were never really high on the price/effectiveness ratio. It will go down with the new chips drop rate tho so it will indeed help. |
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Scout Vyvorant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:13:00 -
[201] - Quote
Why don't give the nestor the ability to carry at least two fitted frigates, or restrict her bay to be able to hold only SoE ships? (I'd prefer simply the first)
If you think about it, the orca can hold two hulks, refit in space, use links, have massive cargo hold, a hugh EHP potential and so on, for 600 mils, the nestor, for the amazing pricetag of 1.3 bil, can remote repair, scan and hack sites, and now refit in space. A bit underwhelming, isn't it?
Anyway if you see the nestor is too OP with a proper ship bay, you can nerf it back in the next release in september, that's the good part with the patches so close to each other. |
Grunnax Aurelius
Lai Dai Shadows Negative Waves
295
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:43:00 -
[202] - Quote
Scout Vyvorant wrote:Why don't give the nestor the ability to carry at least two fitted frigates, or restrict her bay to be able to hold only SoE ships? (I'd prefer simply the first)
If you think about it, the orca can hold two hulks, refit in space, use links, have massive cargo hold, a hugh EHP potential and so on, for 600 mils, the nestor, for the amazing pricetag of 1.3 bil, can remote repair, scan and hack sites, and now refit in space. A bit underwhelming, isn't it?
Anyway if you see the nestor is too OP with a proper ship bay, you can nerf it back in the next release in september, that's the good part with the patches so close to each other.
Orca is a Capital ship.... not a Battleship thats why.... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
592
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 22:12:00 -
[203] - Quote
CorryBasler wrote:+1 for billion isk instant mobile depots! No longer shall we wait for the mobile depot to anchor when flying supercaps, just toss out a nestor!
Gotta love PL logic
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
881
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 22:17:00 -
[204] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Scout Vyvorant wrote:Why don't give the nestor the ability to carry at least two fitted frigates, or restrict her bay to be able to hold only SoE ships? (I'd prefer simply the first)
If you think about it, the orca can hold two hulks, refit in space, use links, have massive cargo hold, a hugh EHP potential and so on, for 600 mils, the nestor, for the amazing pricetag of 1.3 bil, can remote repair, scan and hack sites, and now refit in space. A bit underwhelming, isn't it?
Anyway if you see the nestor is too OP with a proper ship bay, you can nerf it back in the next release in september, that's the good part with the patches so close to each other. Orca is a Capital ship.... not a Battleship thats why....
weird since it has large rigs rather than capitals .. and is allowed in HS .. although JF's are too like, Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 02:06:00 -
[205] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:A Nestor's rep is equivalent to about 2.5 guardians. And if you are roaming through wormholes, are you going to stop and build a carrier in each system you come across?
[...]
Good luck refitting on the fly if you have to move with an Orca.
Shh! Don't tell them that! Let them find out the hard way! |
Azbogah
Perpetua Umbra Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 02:17:00 -
[206] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:CorryBasler wrote:+1 for billion isk instant mobile depots! No longer shall we wait for the mobile depot to anchor when flying supercaps, just toss out a nestor! Gotta love PL logic
Actually it's great logic. I am actually going to put one in my Archon. |
Scout Vyvorant
University of Caille Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 05:23:00 -
[207] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Scout Vyvorant wrote:Why don't give the nestor the ability to carry at least two fitted frigates, or restrict her bay to be able to hold only SoE ships? (I'd prefer simply the first)
If you think about it, the orca can hold two hulks, refit in space, use links, have massive cargo hold, a hugh EHP potential and so on, for 600 mils, the nestor, for the amazing pricetag of 1.3 bil, can remote repair, scan and hack sites, and now refit in space. A bit underwhelming, isn't it?
Anyway if you see the nestor is too OP with a proper ship bay, you can nerf it back in the next release in september, that's the good part with the patches so close to each other. Orca is a Capital ship.... not a Battleship thats why.... weird since it has large rigs rather than capitals .. and is allowed in HS .. although JF's are too like,
Correct, while freighter, jf and orca use capital components to be build, the orca has been battleship sized in rigs, EHP and powergrid since day one, and her massive amount of EHP (my top fit was 427k) are part of her features due to the large pool of structure. If you check orca's shield and armor are the ones of a BS.
I'm not saying to turn the nestor into an orca, i'm just saying to add a zero to that ship maintnance bay. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12685
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 07:08:00 -
[208] - Quote
Scout Vyvorant wrote:Harvey James wrote:Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Scout Vyvorant wrote:Why don't give the nestor the ability to carry at least two fitted frigates, or restrict her bay to be able to hold only SoE ships? (I'd prefer simply the first)
If you think about it, the orca can hold two hulks, refit in space, use links, have massive cargo hold, a hugh EHP potential and so on, for 600 mils, the nestor, for the amazing pricetag of 1.3 bil, can remote repair, scan and hack sites, and now refit in space. A bit underwhelming, isn't it?
Anyway if you see the nestor is too OP with a proper ship bay, you can nerf it back in the next release in september, that's the good part with the patches so close to each other. Orca is a Capital ship.... not a Battleship thats why.... weird since it has large rigs rather than capitals .. and is allowed in HS .. although JF's are too like, Correct, while freighter, jf and orca use capital components to be build, the orca has been battleship sized in rigs, EHP and powergrid since day one, and her massive amount of EHP (my top fit was 427k) are part of her features due to the large pool of structure. If you check orca's shield and armor are the ones of a BS. I'm not saying to turn the nestor into an orca, i'm just saying to add a zero to that ship maintnance bay.
I could agree with the ability to carry one frigate so a roaming gang can arry a spare cepter (adds yet more "hey thats handy" to a small gang roam) Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Tennej
LoTax POCO Company of HiSEC
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 07:33:00 -
[209] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Two step wrote:Fun suggestion: Reduce the Nestor's mass, but add a ship "bonus" that increases the mass when running a prop mod so it won't be super fast . Then they might see more use in w-space. The Nestor already has approximately half the mass of other battleships.
And incredibly slow. Make it a little faster please..... might as well be flying a Rokh. You Miners think you have it so damn tough.-á When I first started playing we didnt even have mining lasers.-á You had to fly close to an asteroid.....pop a hatch and gnaw at it with your teeth.-á-á - Bitter Vet
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1724
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 07:48:00 -
[210] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Reasoning for the 5000 m3 bay? Well, the art does have a shuttle bay on it
Yeah it's pretty ridiculous. You should be able to fit an Astero in there at least. +1 |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12685
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 08:26:00 -
[211] - Quote
Quote:Lowered activation cost for 100MN Micro Warp Drives Capacitor activation cost is cut in half for all 100MN Micro Warp Drives.
Oh man this is big! Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 08:56:00 -
[212] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote:Lowered activation cost for 100MN Micro Warp Drives Capacitor activation cost is cut in half for all 100MN Micro Warp Drives. Oh man this is big! I know. full stable MWD BS with 2 mods? Please. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
283
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 09:05:00 -
[213] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote:Lowered activation cost for 100MN Micro Warp Drives Capacitor activation cost is cut in half for all 100MN Micro Warp Drives. Oh man this is big!
I think there was this limited edition shuttle thingy a while ago. A SoC one?
If the "shuttle bay" is kept at 5000 m3 could we at least get a sisters shuttle? One with a probe launcher and mmm.. cov ops cloak? Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
erg cz
Sliperer
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 09:28:00 -
[214] - Quote
Give it 5000 m3 cargo bay instead ;)
Now seriosly: Astero has T2 ship ability - covert op cloak Stratios has T2 ship ability - covert op cloak, 5/5/5 layout and way biggest cargo hold among all cruisers Gnosis has 6/6/6 layout and biggest cargohold among all BC ( even bigger, than all T1 BS ) Nestor should have bigger cargo hold, than a T2 BS, 7/6/7 layout (cause 7/7/7 would make it OP) and T2 ability. If we can not get covert op cloak, give it at least bastion mode module.
Fleet hangar, big enough to transport fitted mining barge, frigate and industrial ship, can be actually attractive for WH solo tourists, who wants to bring all his stuff with him in one ship. Especially if that ship can be anchored and used as shielded POS with 0 powergrid and 0 CPU ;) |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
263
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 10:33:00 -
[215] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
And finally, we are reducing the Nestor's signature radius a bit from the current 465m to 420m.
We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion. -Fozzie
The nestor is not used because it is a pointless gimic ship, designed with zero direction and not a real concept what it should actually do behind it. Non of the changes will change that till somebody actually gives the Nestor a working concept behind it.
Make it like a utility platform like marauders, give it a 100% damage bonus to lasers, reduce the turrets to 3 and give it a useful fitting and cap(the current one is still a joke, it needs 600m in T2 BS sized RR rigs to power up medium reps, yes medium not even large) to mount RR, Puls and tank at the same time. Reduce the sig even further to 380m since it just takes even with the resist bonus more damage than most other BS by the big sig from my experience and give it around 2-2.5k more base armor hit points to make it overall less squishy and more practical without a plate. Maybe add another 100% to the RR range bonus, since this is also something that vastly limits its use currently for stuff like Incs. Another thing would be to give it finally the 10 target slots like Logis and Marauders have them, to be more attractive in the Logi role and multi task better(lock stuff to shoot and RR at the same time).
Also reduce the LP prices of the Nestor in the SOE LP shop down to 350-450k LP for the BPC, it is nowhere worth the asking price of 600k, you admitted that yourself with the introduction of the chips.
progodlegend wrote:I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.
If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.
You guys got to think outside of the box :).
People did say the exact same thing when the Nestor was introduced, a bad ship doesn't become good by being cheap, it is just a cheaper bad ship. Btw I have a 5B nestor that I use quite a bit and everybody that claims to be creative with it just tiered to use the hull for something where it was worse than a cheaper ship. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1724
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:12:00 -
[216] - Quote
It's pretty clear now that this ship will never get a covert ops cloak. If it did, that would justify the current price but as CCP are seeking to reduce the price, it's unlikely the ships will get a cloak.
People say price isn't a balancing factor but they're wrong. If this ship drops below 500 mill and we start to see gangs of RR Nestors roaming around, people are going to start screaming for it to be nerfed.
Advantages of a nestor gang * great repping ability * good drone damage * good laser damage projection * good tank * good speed * can refit in space (e.g. fit warp stabs when in trouble) * can escape using a MJD
Disadvantages ... cost?
The design of this ship has been a mess from day one. Fozzie should have balanced the ship around the ability to fit a covert cloak and everyone would be happy... but no. instead he's just going to pile more bonuses on it until it becomes the swiss army knife of eve.
Ps. the ship is ugly as ****! +1 |
Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
139
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:14:00 -
[217] - Quote
Can't wait to make some OP setups with this. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
Kyuuseishu
Pikachu's Paradise
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:27:00 -
[218] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Give it 5000 m3 cargo bay instead ;)
Now seriosly: Astero has T2 ship ability - covert op cloak Stratios has T2 ship ability - covert op cloak, 5/5/5 layout and way biggest cargo hold among all cruisers Gnosis has 6/6/6 layout and biggest cargohold among all BC ( even bigger, than all T1 BS ) Nestor should have bigger cargo hold, than a T2 BS, 7/6/7 layout (cause 7/7/7 would make it OP) and T2 ability. If we can not get covert op cloak, give it at least bastion mode module.
Fleet hangar, big enough to transport fitted mining barge, frigate and industrial ship, can be actually attractive for WH solo tourists, who wants to bring all his stuff with him in one ship. Especially if that ship can be anchored and used as shielded POS with 0 powergrid and 0 CPU ;)
There isn't a single BS sized ship that can fit the covert ops cloak, it would be the first ship that size able to do so, so it can't exactly have a T2 BS cov ops fitting bonus when one does not exist. But, give it the bastion module? It is in no way, shape, or form along the same lines as a Marauder class BS so this just doesn't fit at all into the ships support role.
With the fleet hangar it does effectively have a bigger cargohold than T2 BS' by a large margin, and giving it an extra low slot, it would have to sacrifice something else in return. |
Tij Lamor
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:16:00 -
[219] - Quote
I've been intrigued by the Nestor since I started playing Eve - the flexibility to adapt to different roles appeals to me. I've created generalist characters that dabble in many areas of the New Eden sandbox, why not a generalist ship?
One problem has been price. For less than the cost of a Nestor I can buy an Onerios for logistics, a Stratios for exploration and a Rattlesnake for combat - each much better in its specialized role than the Nestor.
The idea of adding a ship maintenance bay, presumably with fleet fitting service, got me thinking about the ship again. The ability to refit on the fly has been available since the mobile depot was introduced but built in and fleet accessible adds considerable value. The perfect spot for a ship with these capabilities is wormhole space but a lot of wormholes have a 20 million kg mass restriction and it would be nice if we could shrink Nestor to that level GÇô call it a GÇ£PocketGÇ¥ Battleship. IGÇÖd be willing to give up half the drone bay, some cargo space, a high slot and some tank to achieve this. To compensate, a lighter ship should be better able to speed tank.
I see the ship being fit for one role at a time with primary roles being: * fleet support GÇô logistics including a full squadron of heavy logistic drones, fleet fitting service and I would really like to see a command link. * sniper GÇô sentry drones and range bonus for lasers GÇô should be a good choice for level 4 missions. * wormhole exploration GÇô role bonuses for scanning and hacking. Can fit a conventional cloak.
I would like the logistics skill added to the requirement to fly this ship with the logistic bonuses tied to this skill. Should also be a bonus for logistic drones.
As a smaller ship closer in size to a Battle Cruiser the price from the LP store can be reduced GÇô perhaps 400,000 LP instead of 600,000. This would help bring the market price down and current owners could receive a refund of 200,000 SOE LP.
I donGÇÖt think this ship would be overpowered GÇô it isnGÇÖt the best at any role. Its strength is the ability to switch roles which will be very valuable in wormhole space and attractive to people (like me) who own and love their Leatherman tool.
I would definitely buy one.
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:31:00 -
[220] - Quote
The Djego wrote:[quote=CCP Fozzie]
Make it like a utility platform like marauders, give it a 100% damage bonus to lasers, reduce the turrets to 3 and give it a useful fitting and cap(the current one is still a joke, it needs 600m in T2 BS sized RR rigs to power up medium reps, yes medium not even large) to mount RR, Puls and tank at the same time. Reduce the sig even further to 380m since it just takes even with the resist bonus more damage than most other BS by the big sig from my experience and give it around 2-2.5k more base armor hit points to make it overall less squishy and more practical without a plate. Maybe add another 100% to the RR range bonus, since this is also something that vastly limits its use currently for stuff like Incs. Another thing would be to give it finally the 10 target slots like Logis and Marauders have them, to be more attractive in the Logi role and multi task better(lock stuff to shoot and RR at the same time).
Sooo. It can't do RR while running a weapon with a massive cap problem? Surprise. Soo why do you need cap for an armor tank? EANMs are good enough of a passive that its ridiculous. Unless you want to local tank it, run DPS and logi, in which case, what is even going on there? Soo a drone and logi boat with a minor secondary bonus to lasers can't do all three at once without bling? I am shocked.
As for more EHP, that ship needs more base armor like I need a hole in my cranium. It already has the 6th highest base armor HP of any faction battleship, with the amar navy and bhaal finishing ahead of it. Its closest matches in shield, the SNI and rattler do have more buffer, but this is matched with substantially harder time getting insane resists as there is more pressure on those midslots in almost every case as well as the active nature of shield tank. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:33:00 -
[221] - Quote
Tij Lamor wrote:I've been intrigued by the Nestor since I started playing Eve - the flexibility to adapt to different roles appeals to me. I've created generalist characters that dabble in many areas of the New Eden sandbox, why not a generalist ship?
One problem has been price. For less than the cost of a Nestor I can buy an Onerios for logistics, a Stratios for exploration and a Rattlesnake for combat - each much better in its specialized role than the Nestor.
The idea of adding a ship maintenance bay, presumably with fleet fitting service, got me thinking about the ship again. The ability to refit on the fly has been available since the mobile depot was introduced but built in and fleet accessible adds considerable value. The perfect spot for a ship with these capabilities is wormhole space but a lot of wormholes have a 20 million kg mass restriction and it would be nice if we could shrink Nestor to that level GÇô call it a GÇ£PocketGÇ¥ Battleship. IGÇÖd be willing to give up half the drone bay, some cargo space, a high slot and some tank to achieve this. To compensate, a lighter ship should be better able to speed tank.
I see the ship being fit for one role at a time with primary roles being: * fleet support GÇô logistics including a full squadron of heavy logistic drones, fleet fitting service and I would really like to see a command link. * sniper GÇô sentry drones and range bonus for lasers GÇô should be a good choice for level 4 missions. * wormhole exploration GÇô role bonuses for scanning and hacking. Can fit a conventional cloak.
I would like the logistics skill added to the requirement to fly this ship with the logistic bonuses tied to this skill. Should also be a bonus for logistic drones.
As a smaller ship closer in size to a Battle Cruiser the price from the LP store can be reduced GÇô perhaps 400,000 LP instead of 600,000. This would help bring the market price down and current owners could receive a refund of 200,000 SOE LP.
I donGÇÖt think this ship would be overpowered GÇô it isnGÇÖt the best at any role. Its strength is the ability to switch roles which will be very valuable in wormhole space and attractive to people (like me) who own and love their Leatherman tool.
I would definitely buy one.
The problem with a BS that size, with battleship EHP, weapons and capacitor capacity, as well as fitting room, is that it then becomes a pre-nano nerf WTF kiting ship of doom. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:32:00 -
[222] - Quote
I appreciate that the Nestor is still getting changes, but I still won't fly mine in it's current state.
I actually think adding a ship maintenance bay makes the problem worse, not better. One of the main problems the Nestor has right now is that it really doesn't have a role, or the focus, to give it purpose. Ever since the stats were finalized players have asked the same question: 'Why?'
Adding a maintenance bay just takes the ship one step closer to a carrier, and at since the cost is the same most people would rather USE a carrier for the same function. I know the Nestor is supposed to be a wormhole vessel, but without a cloak it's really a sitting duck in there anyways. If a carrier is unavailable then logistics ships are cheaper and easier to replace.
I'd go as far as saying the maintenance bay is a step in the wrong direction. It really doesn't give the Nestor a purpose, it just makes it more like a carrier, for the same price point.
If you want to make the Nestor more useful, give the Nestor more of a wormhole focus. I know a covert ops cloak is out of the picture but for me the ideal change would be losing the probe strength and encryption bonuses, which don't work as well on a BS sized hull, in exchange for the Nestor to be invisible, or highly resistant, to probe scans. It wouldn't do anything when the enemy was on top of you, but it would be ALMOST as good as a cloak when trying to hide or setting up ambushes. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12699
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:37:00 -
[223] - Quote
Steph Livingston wrote:I appreciate that the Nestor is still getting changes, but I still won't fly mine in it's current state.
I actually think adding a ship maintenance bay makes the problem worse, not better. One of the main problems the Nestor has right now is that it really doesn't have a role, or the focus, to give it purpose. Ever since the stats were finalized players have asked the same question: 'Why?'
Adding a maintenance bay just takes the ship one step closer to a carrier, and at since the cost is the same most people would rather USE a carrier for the same function. I know the Nestor is supposed to be a wormhole vessel, but without a cloak it's really a sitting duck in there anyways. If a carrier is unavailable then logistics ships are cheaper and easier to replace.
I'd go as far as saying the maintenance bay is a step in the wrong direction. It really doesn't give the Nestor a purpose, it just makes it more like a carrier, for the same price point.
If you want to make the Nestor more useful, give the Nestor more of a wormhole focus. I know a covert ops cloak is out of the picture but for me the ideal change would be losing the probe strength and encryption bonuses, which don't work as well on a BS sized hull, in exchange for the Nestor to be invisible, or highly resistant, to probe scans. It wouldn't do anything when the enemy was on top of you, but it would be ALMOST as good as a cloak when trying to hide or setting up ambushes.
Its a support battleship that is ideal for small roaming gangs. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:45:00 -
[224] - Quote
That may be the purpose, but I don't know many people that would dedicate that much ISK on a roam when they could take a logistics, and still outfit 3-4 other people for the same price as a single Nestor. The benefit just isn't worth it.
If the group DID have that much ISK to commit, most groups usually go with a hot drop carrier. It's the same price, and does the job better in most regards. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
708
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:48:00 -
[225] - Quote
Have to say many of the comments in this thread even when not intended to that end seem to suggest the nestor should be a faction black ops heh.
Do like the addition of a limited ship maintenance bay. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12700
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:01:00 -
[226] - Quote
Steph Livingston wrote:That may be the purpose, but I don't know many people that would dedicate that much ISK on a roam when they could take a logistics, and still outfit 3-4 other people for the same price as a single Nestor. The benefit just isn't worth it.
If the group DID have that much ISK to commit, most groups usually go with a hot drop carrier. It's the same price, and does the job better in most regards.
Cant go roaming in a carrier. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1547
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:06:00 -
[227] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Steph Livingston wrote:I appreciate that the Nestor is still getting changes, but I still won't fly mine in it's current state.
I actually think adding a ship maintenance bay makes the problem worse, not better. One of the main problems the Nestor has right now is that it really doesn't have a role, or the focus, to give it purpose. Ever since the stats were finalized players have asked the same question: 'Why?'
Adding a maintenance bay just takes the ship one step closer to a carrier, and at since the cost is the same most people would rather USE a carrier for the same function. I know the Nestor is supposed to be a wormhole vessel, but without a cloak it's really a sitting duck in there anyways. If a carrier is unavailable then logistics ships are cheaper and easier to replace.
I'd go as far as saying the maintenance bay is a step in the wrong direction. It really doesn't give the Nestor a purpose, it just makes it more like a carrier, for the same price point.
If you want to make the Nestor more useful, give the Nestor more of a wormhole focus. I know a covert ops cloak is out of the picture but for me the ideal change would be losing the probe strength and encryption bonuses, which don't work as well on a BS sized hull, in exchange for the Nestor to be invisible, or highly resistant, to probe scans. It wouldn't do anything when the enemy was on top of you, but it would be ALMOST as good as a cloak when trying to hide or setting up ambushes. Its a support battleship that is ideal for small roaming gangs.
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12700
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:15:00 -
[228] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role...
No need. Its not all that hard to get 3au out of any battleship. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1547
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:34:00 -
[229] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role...
No need. Its not all that hard to get 3au out of any battleship.
Yet most people seems to not think its worth. Maybe the nestor just need a different metagame to shine. .. maybe after sov is completely changed upside down.. maybe.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
103
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:37:00 -
[230] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
What are you smoking? Run the eft numbers, 2 guardians put out 20% more reps then 1 nestor and 1 feeder guardian, or 2 spider nestors. And 2 guardians do it for fraction of the price, do it up to 70km vs 21km, are faster, tankier, hardier vs ECM, lock 2 times faster, and have way less sig.
And if you need talisman sets to make a ship work, thats an automatic fail.
Thanks no thanks.
I think you need to check your math. 50% bonus, that means you get a free repper for every two you stick on it. In this case, that's 9 RR modules effectively. So unless you're not doing cap chains on your Guardians a single Nestor reps more.
If you're running a pair of 4/1 Guardians, that's 8 RR modules to 9. Run with 3 people, you're doing 18 RR modules to the triple Guardians 12.
Nestor has more mids so it can do more funky stuff like double Sebo's which put it's lock times to comparable with Guardians. It can run WAY more ECCM. It's also got a full flight of bonused heavy/sentry drones. Guardians don't thrown down 400-500 dps each while doing reps.
It's not a replacement of Guardians, never said it was. But it's got some pretty good strengths and if the hull wasn't worth nearly a carrier, we'd see it a lot more. If you're an Incursion runner or a low end WH group, it's worth a look into once the price drops. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12700
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:37:00 -
[231] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role...
No need. Its not all that hard to get 3au out of any battleship. Yet most people seems to not think its worth. Maybe the nestor just need a different metagame to shine. .. maybe after sov is completely changed upside down.. maybe.
Most of the people who hate this ship also hated the marauder changes. They wont be happy unless they get an overpowered cov ops monster for 300 mil. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
183
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:53:00 -
[232] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role...
No need. Its not all that hard to get 3au out of any battleship. A T2 hyperspace rig and a 15% warp speed implant still doesn't get a 2AU to 3AU. What do you think "not hard" qualifies as? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12700
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:55:00 -
[233] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role...
No need. Its not all that hard to get 3au out of any battleship. A T2 hyperspace rig and a 15% warp speed implant still doesn't get a 2AU to 3AU. What do you think "not hard" qualifies as?
The implant set and a t1 rig. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
478
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:24:00 -
[234] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Steph Livingston wrote:That may be the purpose, but I don't know many people that would dedicate that much ISK on a roam when they could take a logistics, and still outfit 3-4 other people for the same price as a single Nestor. The benefit just isn't worth it.
If the group DID have that much ISK to commit, most groups usually go with a hot drop carrier. It's the same price, and does the job better in most regards. Cant go roaming in a carrier.
Yes you can. its called a cyno loki/proteus/absolution.
baltec, there hasnt been a single nestor-based roam in EVE since the ship came out. That tells you something. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
478
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:28:00 -
[235] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
What are you smoking? Run the eft numbers, 2 guardians put out 20% more reps then 1 nestor and 1 feeder guardian, or 2 spider nestors. And 2 guardians do it for fraction of the price, do it up to 70km vs 21km, are faster, tankier, hardier vs ECM, lock 2 times faster, and have way less sig.
And if you need talisman sets to make a ship work, thats an automatic fail.
Thanks no thanks.
I think you need to check your math. 50% bonus, that means you get a free repper for every two you stick on it. In this case, that's 9 RR modules effectively. So unless you're not doing cap chains on your Guardians a single Nestor reps more. If you're running a pair of 4/1 Guardians, that's 8 RR modules to 9. Run with 3 people, you're doing 18 RR modules to the triple Guardians 12. Nestor has more mids so it can do more funky stuff like double Sebo's which put it's lock times to comparable with Guardians. It can run WAY more ECCM. It's also got a full flight of bonused heavy/sentry drones. Guardians don't thrown down 400-500 dps each while doing reps. It's not a replacement of Guardians, never said it was. But it's got some pretty good strengths and if the hull wasn't worth nearly a carrier, we'd see it a lot more. If you're an Incursion runner or a low end WH group, it's worth a look into once the price drops.
I dont need to check my math because EFT does it for me. 5/1 guardians are better, because nestors need to fit energy transfer arrays, or they burn out of cap in 20 seconds flat, which is a big no-no. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12702
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:31:00 -
[236] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:Steph Livingston wrote:That may be the purpose, but I don't know many people that would dedicate that much ISK on a roam when they could take a logistics, and still outfit 3-4 other people for the same price as a single Nestor. The benefit just isn't worth it.
If the group DID have that much ISK to commit, most groups usually go with a hot drop carrier. It's the same price, and does the job better in most regards. Cant go roaming in a carrier. Yes you can. its called a cyno loki/proteus/absolution. baltec, there hasnt been a single nestor-based roam in EVE since the ship came out. That tells you something.
Cyno jammers, more fuel than you can carry and a lone carrier deep behind enemy lines. It wont last long.
Incidentally show me all of the other small gang roams involving pirate battleships. Even if people saw this as the perfect ship it would be very very rare to find one pvping. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
478
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:33:00 -
[237] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role...
No need. Its not all that hard to get 3au out of any battleship. A T2 hyperspace rig and a 15% warp speed implant still doesn't get a 2AU to 3AU. What do you think "not hard" qualifies as?
He means you need to put 2bil of implants in your head to make the ship marginally useful in warp speed alone.
I think he defends Nestor too much, as quick glance doesnt show a single kill in a nestor on his profile.
baltec1, show us you actually used the nestor in a roam, and we will tip our hats to you. Otherwise, stop defending something you yourself dont use. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
478
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:36:00 -
[238] - Quote
[quote=baltec1
Incidentally show me all of the other small gang roams involving pirate battleships. Even if people saw this as the perfect ship it would be very very rare to find one pvping.[/quote]
I run into vindicators with cynos fairly often; we use bhaalgorns almost every day; machariels are seen here and there on occasion - killed one on a roam a few months back.
it happens.
Not so with nestor. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12703
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:38:00 -
[239] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role...
No need. Its not all that hard to get 3au out of any battleship. A T2 hyperspace rig and a 15% warp speed implant still doesn't get a 2AU to 3AU. What do you think "not hard" qualifies as? He means you need to put 2bil of implants in your head to make the ship marginally useful in warp speed alone. I think he defends Nestor too much, as quick glance doesnt show a single kill in a nestor on his profile. baltec1, show us you actually used the nestor in a roam, and we will tip our hats to you. Otherwise, stop defending something you yourself dont use.
500 mil of implants.
I dont need to show that I use the nestor to understand how it will work. I have 4 years of flying battleships in almost any kind of fleet behind me. I understand how they work. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12703
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:39:00 -
[240] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
I run into vindicators with cynos fairly often; we use bhaalgorns almost every day; machariels are seen here and there on occasion - killed one on a roam a few months back.
it happens.
Not so with nestor.
Thats because it costs twice as much and people generally cant fit ships themselves. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:50:00 -
[241] - Quote
Enre Rosencraz wrote:SMA is an interesting way to go. If you are going to rethink this ship, as everyone is pretty unanimous that you should, then go a different way with it.
Make it an Anti-Bhaalgorn.
Give it a shielded capacitor. A 25-50% reduction (Amarr BS skill level based) in cap neuted per cycle. This will give it use in C4+ anomalies and make it one hell of a remote repper.
it may even give it a purpose in PVP fleets as a logi alternative if you make it a bit more agile.
my 2 isk. This. More ideas like this. Lets see some actual counter to cap warfare, and all of a sudden this makes it really useful in a WH RR fleet, instead of just a 1.4b ISK boondoggle ship that does everything 1/4 as well as a T3. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:12:00 -
[242] - Quote
progodlegend wrote:I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.
If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.
You guys got to think outside of the box :). It's not that it doesn't have uses, but for being 8x the cost of a T1 battleship hull, I'd rather fly other battleships than one of these. WH residents have a strong sense of risk vs. reward, and the Nestor just doesn't make the cut. It's more favorable to run a carrier in almost all the scenarios you desire this expensive of a remote repping ship, or a fleet of something else, rather than one faction battleship that is unremarkable. It's not even a question of the cost as much as the lack of the application bonuses that ships like the Domi have for drones, and they are cheaper, and they are as capable in almost all the other areas that matter. It feels a little like CCP has a disconnect with the playerbase when ships like the Nestor come out and no one uses them. I have to wonder if the Prospect suffers from similar issues, as most folks I know who used Ventures before to mine gas are still using them cause the 500k ISK ship that does virtually the same thing as a 23m ISK ship, but no warp core bonus, has no real advantage over the other. Sure, there's the size of the ore hold, but thats about it.
|
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
263
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:38:00 -
[243] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:The Djego wrote:Make it like a utility platform like marauders, give it a 100% damage bonus to lasers, reduce the turrets to 3 and give it a useful fitting and cap(the current one is still a joke, it needs 600m in T2 BS sized RR rigs to power up medium reps, yes medium not even large) to mount RR, Puls and tank at the same time. Reduce the sig even further to 380m since it just takes even with the resist bonus more damage than most other BS by the big sig from my experience and give it around 2-2.5k more base armor hit points to make it overall less squishy and more practical without a plate. Maybe add another 100% to the RR range bonus, since this is also something that vastly limits its use currently for stuff like Incs. Another thing would be to give it finally the 10 target slots like Logis and Marauders have them, to be more attractive in the Logi role and multi task better(lock stuff to shoot and RR at the same time).
Sooo. It can't do RR while running a weapon with a massive cap problem? Surprise. Soo why do you need cap for an armor tank? EANMs are good enough of a passive that its ridiculous. Unless you want to local tank it, run DPS and logi, in which case, what is even going on there? Soo a drone and logi boat with a minor secondary bonus to lasers can't do all three at once without bling? I am shocked.
Yes it is indeed a major problem if you can't use the most interesting aspect of the hull, what is a utility role as a RR BS like Marauders in a useful manner by the cap issues of the hull. Currently it can barely utilize medium corpum A type RR reps in a useful way and the Nestor could be a lot better if it actually had the proper cap to make something like 3 guns + 3-4 large reps feasible without wasting all med slots with cap rechargers.
James Baboli wrote:As for more EHP, that ship needs more base armor like I need a hole in my cranium. It already has the 6th highest base armor HP of any faction battleship, with the amar navy and bhaal finishing ahead of it. Its closest matches in shield, the SNI and rattler do have more buffer, but this is matched with substantially harder time getting insane resists as there is more pressure on those midslots in almost every case as well as the active nature of shield tank.
Do you know what makes a big difference when you look at the total EHP and the tank? The suggestion are made when you look at the hull fully fitted in a useful setup, that would make sense. However this setups don't include trimarks or resist rigs, because the Nestor has to compromise the rig slots for the RR ability, what is a fairly massive deal if you look at overall EHP and survivability. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Wrent Simulus
Galactic State
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:40:00 -
[244] - Quote
Let it use fleet assistance modules.
Bam, mini-carrier. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
754
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:42:00 -
[245] - Quote
The Djego wrote:James Baboli wrote:The Djego wrote:Make it like a utility platform like marauders, give it a 100% damage bonus to lasers, reduce the turrets to 3 and give it a useful fitting and cap(the current one is still a joke, it needs 600m in T2 BS sized RR rigs to power up medium reps, yes medium not even large) to mount RR, Puls and tank at the same time. Reduce the sig even further to 380m since it just takes even with the resist bonus more damage than most other BS by the big sig from my experience and give it around 2-2.5k more base armor hit points to make it overall less squishy and more practical without a plate. Maybe add another 100% to the RR range bonus, since this is also something that vastly limits its use currently for stuff like Incs. Another thing would be to give it finally the 10 target slots like Logis and Marauders have them, to be more attractive in the Logi role and multi task better(lock stuff to shoot and RR at the same time).
Sooo. It can't do RR while running a weapon with a massive cap problem? Surprise. Soo why do you need cap for an armor tank? EANMs are good enough of a passive that its ridiculous. Unless you want to local tank it, run DPS and logi, in which case, what is even going on there? Soo a drone and logi boat with a minor secondary bonus to lasers can't do all three at once without bling? I am shocked. Yes it is indeed a major problem if you can't use the most interesting aspect of the hull, what is a utility role as a RR BS like Marauders in a useful manner by the cap issues of the hull. Currently it can barely utilize medium corpum A type RR reps in a useful way and the Nestor could be a lot better if it actually had the proper cap to make something like 3 guns + 3-4 large reps feasible without wasting all med slots with cap rechargers. James Baboli wrote:As for more EHP, that ship needs more base armor like I need a hole in my cranium. It already has the 6th highest base armor HP of any faction battleship, with the amar navy and bhaal finishing ahead of it. Its closest matches in shield, the SNI and rattler do have more buffer, but this is matched with substantially harder time getting insane resists as there is more pressure on those midslots in almost every case as well as the active nature of shield tank. Do you know what makes a big difference when you look at the total EHP and the tank? The suggestion are made when you look at the hull fully fitted in a useful setup, that would make sense. However this setups don't include trimarks or resist rigs, because the Nestor has to compromise the rig slots for the RR ability, what is a fairly massive deal if you look at overall EHP and survivability.
because logistics ships with infinite cap worked out so well with guardians not being horribly broken |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
263
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:48:00 -
[246] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:
because logistics ships with infinite cap worked out so well with guardians not being horribly broken
Yes because the infinite cap on a guardian is not infinite, it doesn't come from local cap recharge and the ship bonuses(that the Nestor doesn't have) have nothing to do with it.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
907
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:51:00 -
[247] - Quote
There are a lot of ways you can take the nestor, but right now looking at the info it's primary purpose is to hit up higher level ghost sites and combat sites, which gives it a very limited role. So what role to give it besides that? common suggestions
BS level triage - aka its own type of bastion module. Tech II cloak bonus - 125% speed while cloaked per level etc. - make it the black ops of SOE drop the optimal range and give it something more useful?
Play off the lore of SOE. They are going into deep space to rescue people, ships and try to restore the EvE gate. Oh and personal opinion - ship bay is worthless. |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:14:00 -
[248] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:because logistics ships with infinite cap worked out so well with guardians not being horribly broken As a Guardian pilot, I can name four different hard counters for the Guardian. Stop complaining about "broken" ships and start learning their counters. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
479
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:32:00 -
[249] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:There are a lot of ways you can take the nestor, but right now looking at the info it's primary purpose is to hit up higher level ghost sites and combat sites, which gives it a very limited role. So what role to give it besides that? common suggestions
BS level triage - aka its own type of bastion module. Tech II cloak bonus - 125% speed while cloaked per level etc. - make it the black ops of SOE drop the optimal range and give it something more useful?
Play off the lore of SOE. They are going into deep space to rescue people, ships and try to restore the EvE gate. Oh and personal opinion - ship bay is worthless.
No. To tank it to 500+ dps required to clear most combat sites in null or in WH space, you sacrifice everything, including damage. Plus, it cant handle neuts common in sleeper sites.
Nestor only kinda works in tandem with another nestor or a feeder guardian; a pair of nestors can half-assedly tank a C5 sleeper site, up to wave 2, maybe, but with serious problems in damage application. Forget running a C6.
But seriously, for wormhole PvE its a marauder or tengu for higher-end content, or RR domis for lower-end. There is NO reason to take nestors in PvE. Absolutely NONE. Ditto for null, only they use ishatrs in complexes I believe.
baltec believes it a PvP roam support battleship, but wont use the ship himself in that role.
Maybe nestor now has marginal uses in low-sec battleship-heavy gate camps as a mobile depot now at zero on the gate, but thats about it. When was the last time 30+ battleships sat on a low-sec gate? Those days are long gone... |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
479
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:44:00 -
[250] - Quote
I predict only 1 role for nestor IMHO.
Alliance Tournaments.
Maybe, just maybe, a flagship nestor logi is slightly better in a tournament format - if the cap stability is solved.
Yes range of RR is an issue, but a nestor and 2 domis/megas on the sides - hard to break. |
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:44:00 -
[251] - Quote
The Djego wrote: Yes it is indeed a major problem if you can't use the most interesting aspect of the hull, what is a utility role as a RR BS like Marauders in a useful manner by the cap issues of the hull. Currently it can barely utilize medium corpum A type RR reps in a useful way and the Nestor could be a lot better if it actually had the proper cap to make something like 3 guns + 3-4 large reps feasible without wasting all med slots with cap rechargers.
It will do both of these with shiny fits, implants and high skills. I agree that it could use slightly better cap, but it should not be able to do all of these things at once without making some kind of meaningful sacrifice. A rack of application bonused guns, a full flight of sentries, range bonused RR and a strong tank should be enough to make sacrifices for. It should be mostly cap modules if you are trying to fit such an all purpose ship, as lasers don't use ammo and already have wonderful selection, but pay for it with high cap use and limited damage types, RR is designed to use cap as its limiting resource and you still have bonused drones. So pick one role and stop trying to make it do everything at once. It can do everything, just not at once, and this SMA will let a nestor gang refit to do everything, just like a carrier gang can.
The Djego wrote: Do you know what makes a big difference when you look at the total EHP and the tank? The suggestion are made when you look at the hull fully fitted in a useful setup, that would make sense. However this setups don't include trimarks or resist rigs, because the Nestor has to compromise the rig slots for the RR ability, what is a fairly massive deal if you look at overall EHP and survivability.
I can get it cap stable with a full rack of RR, 70%+ resists, 100k EHP and no modules more expensive than t2, and t1 rigs, without using implants. This looks fairly reasonable to me for most currently proposed setups theory crafted, as it VERY quickly gets better when you start running faction modules or implants. Granted, it lacks the guns, but it has almost double the raw rep power of a guardian or onieros, without a cap chain to foul on.
TrouserDeagle wrote: because logistics ships with infinite cap worked out so well with guardians not being horribly broken
This is much more an issue with cap chains being a very powerful mechanic than with logistics ships themselves. It is a force multiplier for the guardian/basilisk to be able to relieve neut pressure, but it is countered by the fact that applying such pressure and then breaking the locks in the cap chain will cause several ships to cap out, rather than just one. This is simply the easiest and most frustrating counter. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Ayiana Sive
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 19:16:00 -
[252] - Quote
Would love to see a jump drive on it.
|
XvXTeacherVxV
Dayman Industries
102
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 19:45:00 -
[253] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function.
I'd be satisfied with the Nestor if it had another low-slot, a jump drive, and the SMA held ~20K-30K m3. That would mean pilots could stash a frigate in the SMA for their cyno alt to swap into. You could even take those analyzer & probing bonuses away and I doubt anyone would miss them since most people won't even need them if they can keep an astero in the bay.
I like the neutralizer resistance idea so long as it is not total neutralizer immunity, but with so many mid-slots you could achieve this to some degree anyway by fitting capacitor batteries, so I'm not sure it would revolutionize the hull unless the resistance was quite substantial. Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE |
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:25:00 -
[254] - Quote
You know, the reason thereGÇÖs so many different ideas on how to fix the Nestor just helps highlight the real issue, it doesnGÇÖt have a specific purpose, or focus. It does a ton of things ok, but nothing extremely well. It has a ton of bonuses, few that actually benefit it or have any synergy, and as a result any effect it could be having right now is completely watered down. No offence, but I think the addition of a maintenance bay shows that not even the devs know where itGÇÖs going either.
Instead of going through a ton of small iterations, IGÇÖd rather see the Nestor taken back to the drawing board and rebuilt. It has several good ideas that should be salvaged but the problem with the original design is that it didnGÇÖt have a direction, it was just the core SOE bonuses with a BS hull strapped around them. Remote Reps had to be added later because the ship was to weak. At this point I think trying to support probes, decryption, drones, remote rep and lasers all at once is pointless. Figure out the core idea and give it a purpose, THEN add the bonuses.
I have no doubt the Nestor could be an amazing ship, IGÇÖd just rather not have to go through 10 different iterations in order to get there.
|
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
263
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:41:00 -
[255] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:The Djego wrote: Yes it is indeed a major problem if you can't use the most interesting aspect of the hull, what is a utility role as a RR BS like Marauders in a useful manner by the cap issues of the hull. Currently it can barely utilize medium corpum A type RR reps in a useful way and the Nestor could be a lot better if it actually had the proper cap to make something like 3 guns + 3-4 large reps feasible without wasting all med slots with cap rechargers.
It will do both of these with shiny fits, implants and high skills. I agree that it could use slightly better cap, but it should not be able to do all of these things at once without making some kind of meaningful sacrifice. A rack of application bonused guns, a full flight of sentries, range bonused RR and a strong tank should be enough to make sacrifices for. It should be mostly cap modules if you are trying to fit such an all purpose ship, as lasers don't use ammo and already have wonderful selection, but pay for it with high cap use and limited damage types, RR is designed to use cap as its limiting resource and you still have bonused drones. So pick one role and stop trying to make it do everything at once. It can do everything, just not at once, and this SMA will let a nestor gang refit to do everything, just like a carrier gang can. That sounds like the Nestor is a awesome ship right now already. However all that fittings are outdone by block standard Logi or RR Marauder for a fraction of the price with a lot better survivability or DPS. If you use the meds for cap recharges, the utility compared to a Oni is laughable(the survivability already is, it needs 3 times more RR -> 4 vs 1 T2 large RR on it in the same scenario to keep it alive), if you use the low slots for tank you will see like 400 dps from it, what is so worth the extra price tag over the Oni(especially without tracking links). Compare it to a RR Marauder that can deal more DPS and also fields a lot of RR, the only a advantage of the Nestor is a bit more RR range and RR amount however to make it really practical it needs the capacitor to actually utilize all this modules halve way decent. Else I could just slap 2-3 cap mods on my Paladin and call it a day, still more room for TCs and damage mods, still more DPS and still a lot cheaper. Btw, lasers do use T2 and faction crystals(a lot actually). James Baboli wrote:[quote=The Djego] Do you know what makes a big difference when you look at the total EHP and the tank? The suggestion are made when you look at the hull fully fitted in a useful setup, that would make sense. However this setups don't include trimarks or resist rigs, because the Nestor has to compromise the rig slots for the RR ability, what is a fairly massive deal if you look at overall EHP and survivability. I can get it cap stable with a full rack of RR, 70%+ resists, 100k EHP and no modules more expensive than t2, and t1 rigs, without using implants. This looks fairly reasonable to me for most currently proposed setups theory crafted, as it VERY quickly gets better when you start running faction modules or implants. Granted, it lacks the guns, but it has almost double the raw rep power of a guardian or onieros, without a cap chain to foul on.
That is the difference I don't theory craft, I have and use on that is fitted quite expensive, with all skills at 5 and that is actually used in a useful niche. Btw the double RR is a lot less impressive as it looks like, since you need a hole Logi just to keep the Nestor alive(that single logi can also already keep the rest alive on its own), you don't use large reps(because it gimps your dps and utility to much, so it is not twice the RR), while a Oni or Guardian can survive very easy by staying close to a RR BS without any issues on cap or RR amount whatsoever for most practical purpose.
Lets pretend for one second we use a realistic fitting. Is it awesome at DPS? No not really, it doesn't have the application bonuses from the Domi and loses nearly everything that makes it more practical than the Domi by fitting lasers(the RR) and with the extra low to slap on a another plate the EHP difference is not that great(the extra resists are nice, then again signature). Also Marauders can do a similar thing nearly as good with more DPS and cheaper. Is it awesome as Logi? If you need a static solo logi it is ok, however it costs a fortune to add some utility the Logis have out of the box and a for most practical applications a solo Nestor paired up with RR BS is far easier to kill than a solo logi, that gets worse by scaling, because Logis tank a lot better. Plus mobility and RR range on the normal Logis is still a lot better, plus being a lot more expandable.
It can be used as Inc Logi for VGs, it isn't even that awesome since it only offers 1-2 more tracking link over the Oni(again you want Omnis on it for the Sentry drones so it is more like 1-0), it adds around 650 dps over a Oni(if you 3 slot tank it and most not fully maxed Logi pilots will have issues to keep it up on her own), however it is pointless in bigger sites where you need mobility(by the limited rep range), it is awful as solo logi(because it needs a truck of RR on it to keep it up) and the extra RR is rather pointless if you use 2 loigs anyway(a single Oni can already handle the incoming DPS). Overall it is even questionable in a very this small niche. Is it worth the price tag? While it is a ok alternative, it is not worth 10 times the ISK than pimped Oni and yes I say that despite the fact actually having one fitted that way and using it from time to time.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
AOSA
Atreidun Order
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:42:00 -
[256] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. We have another set of balance changes to talk about today. We've been keeping a close eye on the Nestor battleship and we're planning to make a few small but significant changes to it in the Hyperion release.
The most significant change by far is that we are increasing the drop rate of the Drone Nexus chips that can be converted to Sisters of EVE ship BPCs quite dramatically. These should now drop much more often from all types of "Sentient" rogue drone commander NPCs, especially from the Sentient Alvus battleships. This should go a long way to helping bring the price of the Nestor down from its current levels.
Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
And finally, we are reducing the Nestor's signature radius a bit from the current 465m to 420m.
We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.
As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.
Thanks -Fozzie
This is awesome! I was one of the ones screaming for the covert ops capabilities, but the ship maintenence bay is also something I advocated for. I'm glad you guys are considering the option!
P.S. I still like the covert ops idea, maybe make a black ops variant of the Nestor hull fit that purpose? Just a thought! You guys are doing good, keep it up! |
Kasimir Wulf
Ubiquitous Hurt Exodus.
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:54:00 -
[257] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Harvey James wrote:interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please This is actually the best way to do things, better to make small changes to get to a good place than to over buff something and have people suffer in game for weeks or months before CCP can come back around and fix it. or we have too wait for months for any meaningful changes .. in the meantime we are stuck waiting for those said changes too actually occur
i'd rather wait for meaningful changes then have to deal with people abusing the crap out of a blatantly obvious overpowered ship. |
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
264
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 01:12:00 -
[258] - Quote
Upon further investigation into the Nestor I came up with a few changes I would implement.
Power Grid: 13000 (+1750) Max Velocity: 100 (+8) Signature: 420 (-45) Sensor Strength: 26 (+2) Roles:
10+ bonus to Relic and Data Analyzer virus strength 50% Reduction in Remote Armor Repair Capacitor Usage |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1470
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 04:37:00 -
[259] - Quote
Bonuses are still meaningless as they don't fit to a theme. Meaning it has no clear role and will continue to be outplayed in almost every role. |
Savon Starfarer
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 06:00:00 -
[260] - Quote
Hi, first time posting here. I was just looking at the ship, looking at the virus strength and it's role as exploration ship. Being a 'fast' bs, it's still a bs - slow and lumbering. I suggest the following.
1. Give it an analyser range bonus that can cover entire exploration site grid. 2. A module that only it can use, to collect any loot from cracked open exploration container anywhere on grid instantly, acting like those beaming device in Star Trek.
In this case, being the premier exploration battleship that it is meant to be, can simply fly into an exploration area, align to an escape SS, and still do hacking and collect loot. Well, at least it can actually fulfill a role in exploration that is unique. Just my penny thought, what do u guys think?
"Beam them in, Scotty" lol |
|
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
465
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 07:09:00 -
[261] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bonuses are still meaningless as they don't fit to a theme. Meaning it has no clear role and will continue to be outplayed in almost every role.
This is my primary problem with the Nestor (other than cost)
The SoE ship line is a covert combat exploration ship line. The Nestor breaks from this line fundamentally and makes itself appear "alien" within the ship line. It has no synergy with covert combat exploration.
I understand that it's a support battleship with fantastic repping ability but it's reliance on Nexus Guardians to do that is and extreme crutch and means a fleet that loses the Nexus Guardian will completely collapse. There is no redundancy in the fleet and as such it will fail.
The Nestor needs to become what it should intuatively be. The correct support battleship for covert combat exploration is a platform that can bridge. This ship should be a T1 Blops. Drop the remote rep capabilities and give the Astero and Stratios the ability to fit covert cyno's.
Next, create a new SoE ship which is a Battlecruiser. Give it the standard BC fleet assist ability, a remote rep ability and a covert cloak. Then the SoE ship line has a correct and intuitive line up
Frigate - Covert Combat Scout Cruiser - Covert Combat Exploration Battlecruiser - Covert Combat Support Battleship - Blops (not fully covert) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12709
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 09:23:00 -
[262] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bonuses are still meaningless as they don't fit to a theme. Meaning it has no clear role and will continue to be outplayed in almost every role.
Its role is a support battleship for roaming gangs. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1549
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 09:53:00 -
[263] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Maybe extra 0.5 au/s warp speed coudl be the buff needed to make it excel on that role...
No need. Its not all that hard to get 3au out of any battleship. Yet most people seems to not think its worth. Maybe the nestor just need a different metagame to shine. .. maybe after sov is completely changed upside down.. maybe. Most of the people who hate this ship also hated the marauder changes. They wont be happy unless they get an overpowered cov ops monster for 300 mil.
I am not advocating something at that level. But something that make it more CLEAR to the not so creative how it can be used. We tested the nestor and what made us drop it was the too slow warp speed, but the potential is there. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
465
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 10:57:00 -
[264] - Quote
Any chance we could get a buff to powergrid?
I feel this ship is a little low on grid and has too much CPU. Would happily swap a bit of CPU for some PG. Say -100 CPU for +1000 PG? |
Zuteh
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:21:00 -
[265] - Quote
Same as above post, it really has a hard time with the power grid.
A few things I'd love with it: + Pirate Marauder, can fit bastion module which also affects drones (HP, speed, tracking) + Drone bonuses like +1 drone or more bandwith (150 mb/s) (maybe in conjunction with bastion mode) - Remove the relic and scan bonuses
Something like that, with proper adjustments for balance of course, would make it a pretty neat and exciting pocket carrier. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
484
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:08:00 -
[266] - Quote
Savon Starfarer wrote:Hi, first time posting here. I was just looking at the ship, looking at the virus strength and it's role as exploration ship. Being a 'fast' bs, it's still a bs - slow and lumbering. I suggest the following.
1. Give it an analyser range bonus that can cover entire exploration site grid. 2. A module that only it can use, to collect any loot from cracked open exploration container anywhere on grid instantly, acting like those beaming device in Star Trek.
In this case, being the premier exploration battleship that it is meant to be, can simply fly into an exploration area, align to an escape SS, and still do hacking and collect loot. Well, at least it can actually fulfill a role in exploration that is unique. Just my penny thought, what do u guys think?
"Beam them in, Scotty" lol
romete loot and hack? +1, would solidify its role.
but it still cant survive sleeper sites because everything scrams, webs and neuts - the neuts being the problem. it does not have the capacitor to really tank anything while it hacks, even if it can microjump away from a site to escape.. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
484
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:10:00 -
[267] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bonuses are still meaningless as they don't fit to a theme. Meaning it has no clear role and will continue to be outplayed in almost every role. Its role is a support battleship for roaming gangs.
Sigh...you keep telling everyone that, and not a single roam supported by a nestor ever happened. EVER. Nor will it, even if nestor costs 500mil. |
Heinrich Erquilenne
Foundation Cutting-Edge Mordus Angels
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:24:00 -
[268] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Heinrich Erquilenne wrote:Increasing drop rates? Why? Do you want to kill LP farming? The SOE missions are among the last somewhat profitable LP sources. Mission running is far from being as profitable as trade, anomalies or wormhole farming to the point your proposal isn't even funny. Loot has been nerfed with reprocessing, and now, BPCs can be obtained anywhere. Awesome. Why not removing missions from the game if you despise that kind of content that much? are you implying that people take a loss while mission running? that'd be really nice for highsec imo.
Well since the sisters of eve have many offices in nullsec the primary nerf is done to low/nullsec mission running. Now I see two explanations: the devs either don't remember that they've made grindy SOE facilities (like the sanctuary, you have to start with lvl 1 distribution to make your way to lvl 4s without having any lvl 3s) in pure blind or they deliberately want to nerf missionning even further. If it's the first option then it's weird, if it's the second one at least they could give us the reason why they don't lower the cost of the SOE ships in the LP store too. If the devs think mission running is too rewarding even in low/nullsec then at least i'd like to hear why. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1554
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:24:00 -
[269] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bonuses are still meaningless as they don't fit to a theme. Meaning it has no clear role and will continue to be outplayed in almost every role. Its role is a support battleship for roaming gangs. Sigh...you keep telling everyone that, and not a single roam supported by a nestor ever happened. EVER. Nor will it, even if nestor costs 500mil.
It would if it warped fast... but only then. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1019
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:53:00 -
[270] - Quote
The Nestor is an interesting ship, It is one where people really want it to find a role, but instead everyone loves to hate it.
That is really Sad.
In my mind the problem is, not so much that the individual features are not nice or handy,
It is more that with so many features, if it was able to do them all well, the cry of OVERPOWERED would be terrifying to behold.
I suggest, that the ship would be well served, to go back to first principals, strip everything out, and bring out the anoikis Nestor.
Let the discovered chips go to building this, and update the existing blueprints. Just add a new component from wormhole space to build them.
The difference?
Let this ship be designed for a highly focused role, the minimum of features, but absolutely suited for a wormhole environment and absolutely useless elsewhere.
Then it can be powerful and desired,and get the features it needs, without wrecking K-space. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
progodlegend
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
171
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 16:32:00 -
[271] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Serious question: Do you really see yourself using one of these if the price goes down to 1 bil (before fittings)? Why wouldn't you just use an archon?
Carriers cant roam, cant use gates, cant warp quickly or do any of the other things a subcap can. PotatoOverdose wrote: Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
Give it a few months and if CCPs maths is right it should land around the same price as a vindi.
There's a reason this dude has a fleet concept named after him. Man knows his ****.
To add on to that, carriers also can't fit MJDs. Food for thought. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1912
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 18:35:00 -
[272] - Quote
progodlegend wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Serious question: Do you really see yourself using one of these if the price goes down to 1 bil (before fittings)? Why wouldn't you just use an archon?
Carriers cant roam, cant use gates, cant warp quickly or do any of the other things a subcap can. PotatoOverdose wrote: Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
Give it a few months and if CCPs maths is right it should land around the same price as a vindi. There's a reason this dude has a fleet concept named after him. Man knows his ****. To add on to that, carriers also can't fit MJDs. Food for thought.
I thought it was because he only flew megas and when cfc made a mega fleet he got the honour of having the concept named after him. Unless he has alts that fly other ships... his exeriance on everything else would be limited.
Though tbh when was the last time one saw a roaming battleship gang? Unless you're talking about titan bridge hot drops... but at that point just use triage carriers as they cost less.
Personally the nestor would gain utility if it could traverse threw a covert ops cyno as thats a thing carriers cant do.
Imo I would design the nestor around "assistance" and drop all damage based rolls. Give it the ability to fit a triage mod... that would give it great utility in areas one does not have a carrier to use. Such as low level wh space high sec and covert drops. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad. |
Pook600
Defiance LLC
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 19:09:00 -
[273] - Quote
Any thought to making Drone Bandwidth 150mhz?
with these changes it is a baby carrier but without the dps. And does anyone really use guns? It's all logi.... |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12709
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 19:40:00 -
[274] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bonuses are still meaningless as they don't fit to a theme. Meaning it has no clear role and will continue to be outplayed in almost every role. Its role is a support battleship for roaming gangs. Sigh...you keep telling everyone that, and not a single roam supported by a nestor ever happened. EVER. Nor will it, even if nestor costs 500mil.
People don't roam with nightmares either, doesn't mean they cant. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12709
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 19:47:00 -
[275] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:progodlegend wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Serious question: Do you really see yourself using one of these if the price goes down to 1 bil (before fittings)? Why wouldn't you just use an archon?
Carriers cant roam, cant use gates, cant warp quickly or do any of the other things a subcap can. PotatoOverdose wrote: Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
Give it a few months and if CCPs maths is right it should land around the same price as a vindi. There's a reason this dude has a fleet concept named after him. Man knows his ****. To add on to that, carriers also can't fit MJDs. Food for thought. I thought it was because he only flew megas and when cfc made a mega fleet he got the honour of having the concept named after him. Unless he has alts that fly other ships... his exeriance on everything else would be limited. Though tbh when was the last time one saw a roaming battleship gang? Unless you're talking about titan bridge hot drops... but at that point just use triage carriers as they cost less. Personally the nestor would gain utility if it could traverse threw a covert ops cyno as thats a thing carriers cant do. Imo I would design the nestor around "assistance" and drop all damage based rolls. Give it the ability to fit a triage mod... that would give it great utility in areas one does not have a carrier to use. Such as low level wh space high sec and covert drops.
I love my megathrons but I do enjoy pulling crazy stunts in any battleship. I'm kinda like the Q branch of BATs. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1554
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 20:21:00 -
[276] - Quote
progodlegend wrote:baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Serious question: Do you really see yourself using one of these if the price goes down to 1 bil (before fittings)? Why wouldn't you just use an archon?
Carriers cant roam, cant use gates, cant warp quickly or do any of the other things a subcap can. PotatoOverdose wrote: Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
Give it a few months and if CCPs maths is right it should land around the same price as a vindi. There's a reason this dude has a fleet concept named after him. Man knows his ****. To add on to that, carriers also can't fit MJDs. Food for thought.
The same group have other doctrine called f#&!@ fleet.. so.. not exactly as if this was a nobel prize. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3665
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 03:40:00 -
[277] - Quote
Stop trying to make the nestor a thing, it's never gonna happen in its current role design. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12710
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 04:32:00 -
[278] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Stop trying to make the nestor a thing, it's never gonna happen in its current role design.
Not with that attitude. Honestly the negative nancies around here want this ship to fail and will ignore anything that goes against their opinion. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8819
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 04:53:00 -
[279] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Stop trying to make the nestor a thing, it's never gonna happen in its current role design. Not with that attitude. Honestly the negative nancies around here want this ship to fail and will ignore anything that goes against their opinion.
For my part, I dislike it specifically because of it's prohibitive cost. Especially compared to other pirate battleships, it just costs too much for what it does.
This change might help with that, because having a refit bay is a pretty uncommon thing among subcapital ships. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
70
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 13:02:00 -
[280] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bonuses are still meaningless as they don't fit to a theme. Meaning it has no clear role and will continue to be outplayed in almost every role. Its role is a support battleship for roaming gangs. Sigh...you keep telling everyone that, and not a single roam supported by a nestor ever happened. EVER. Nor will it, even if nestor costs 500mil. It would if it warped fast... but only then. It does match a battle cruiser for base warp speed. a couple ascendencies and you hit cruiser warp speed without sacrficing anything on the fit itself.
This said, it has several roles which can't all be used at the same time without making most of them meh. Its a lower mass, longer ranged RR domi, for WHs. its a scan ship that doesn't have to refit to run any site type in high/low and can still fit scan mods in the mids. Its a scan ship that can blap any other scan ship out of it's site while still running the site. Its a ship that can tank a ghost site explosion, the rats that spawn afterwards and still carry all the loot and have scan mods fitted. Its a RR platform for incursions and other size limited activities. Its a swiss army knife, but it isn't the absolute best at any of those things. Its about as close as the t3 should be to mastering multiple roles simultaneously, but without the insane customization of those ships. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
|
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
297
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 14:15:00 -
[281] - Quote
Only problem with Nestor in PvP is it's price because everyone and their mother want to kill a BS of a semi low EHP and billion worth of a price tag. Lowering the price and adding ship maintenance bay should help the issue a bit. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
486
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 14:21:00 -
[282] - Quote
In a C5 or a C6 cataclysmic variable a pair of Nestors can be used to ninja relic cans from sleeper sites.
The RR in a cataclysmic variable is amazing, thats where nestor shines and has something logi cruisers dont - microjump drive.
2 Nestors warp in on a can, enter RR, hack the can, microjump away, warp out. No need to kill sleepers, can be in and out in 30 seconds flat, can go into any site.
BUT, BUT, BUT.
Sleeper webs.Once you land in your nestors, you will be perma-webbed to 20 m/s. So going from can to can is out, you only have 1 can.
Going for talocans, the most expensive can, is not worth it - a talocan is worth 50-60 mil nowadays. Risk 3bil in equipment to go after a 50mil in loot? Well, if there is more then 1 site to hack, if you have the zephyr to bookmark everything, I suppose you could use 1 of the nestors to scan the cans to find additional 50-60mil cans (there is always 1 in every site). You could also probably smartbomb the webbing frigates away...
Maybe.
A tool to do PvE in otherwise ignored cataclysmic variable, where a marauder cant go.
But is it worth it to keep a pair of nestors just for that off-chance that you will roll into a cata and not decide to re-roll the static? Probably not in my case, I prefer red giants and different methods. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
762
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 14:52:00 -
[283] - Quote
still waiting for ccp to fix npc scrams |
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
374
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 15:01:00 -
[284] - Quote
To get the price of Nestor down, you have to significantly increase droprate of those chips (I saw no numbers mentioned in the droprate part). After all, with the LP and build costs Nestor's price from the old route is not going to come too much down. Thus I hope that the droprate is adjusted so much that it can outstrip the LP store route completely (and people build Stratios and Astero instead, with only few nonconformists giving finger to LP efficiency). As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 15:07:00 -
[285] - Quote
Anna Karhunen wrote:To get the price of Nestor down, you have to significantly increase droprate of those chips (I saw no numbers mentioned in the droprate part). After all, with the LP and build costs Nestor's price from the old route is not going to come too much down. Thus I hope that the droprate is adjusted so much that it can outstrip the LP store route completely (and people build Stratios and Astero instead, with only few nonconformists giving finger to LP efficiency).
CCP Fozzie wrote:increasing the drop rate of the Drone Nexus chips that can be converted to Sisters of EVE ship BPCs quite dramatically.
Looks like they are already on the same track. |
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
374
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 15:20:00 -
[286] - Quote
As I said I did not see the numbers, just that note. That line says nothing about how large the droprate adjustment is. Does it cover the number of Nestors produced through LP store or not. So, I posted just to note that they have to make the LP store utterly meaningless if they do want to make the price drop a lot. As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 15:30:00 -
[287] - Quote
Anna Karhunen wrote:As I said I did not see the numbers, just that note. That line says nothing about how large the droprate adjustment is. Does it cover the number of Nestors produced through LP store or not. So, I posted just to note that they have to make the LP store utterly meaningless if they do want to make the price drop a lot. It already is for the nestor, as the Nestor is far from the best isk/lp item in the store AND mostly unused by people who mission hard enough to get them through the LP store. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7679
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 16:04:00 -
[288] - Quote
I apprecatie yall (Rise, Fozzie and the rest) not wanting to screw anything up to bad by makign an overpower battleship.
But c'mon, the Nestor sucks, and that's a shame because some of us were looking forward to playing with an SOE Battleship. So go wild guys, make it good even if that risks making it OP. You're CCP, you know how to come back and nerf things into oblivion if that happens, you've done it every week for the last 11 years |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
684
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 16:16:00 -
[289] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
This is the most amazing thing you could have ever done. Given T3s, this just got a nestor a spot in merely ANY wormhole engagement that doesn't have a carrier yet.
Really, +1 "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 16:18:00 -
[290] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
This is the most amazing thing you could have ever done. Given T3s, this just got a nestor a spot in merely ANY wormhole engagement that doesn't have a carrier yet. Really, +1 And considering you can bring them into C2+, this is a unique usage of them. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
|
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
684
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 16:19:00 -
[291] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
This is the most amazing thing you could have ever done. Given T3s, this just got a nestor a spot in merely ANY wormhole engagement that doesn't have a carrier yet. Really, +1 And considering you can bring them into C2+, this is a unique usage of them.
Not to mention those cloaked guardians that just refit the instant they drop cloak... "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 17:36:00 -
[292] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:James Baboli wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Secondly, we are adding a new function to the Nestor that fits well with its role as a group support vessel. We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
This is the most amazing thing you could have ever done. Given T3s, this just got a nestor a spot in merely ANY wormhole engagement that doesn't have a carrier yet. Really, +1 And considering you can bring them into C2+, this is a unique usage of them. Not to mention those cloaked guardians that just refit the instant they drop cloak... And every domi is now both a spider domi and a blaster domi until one or the other is needed on every ship, and everyone has fully committed. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
slam34
Defiance LLC
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 17:40:00 -
[293] - Quote
New "service bay" is a great idea, and I'm not sure the size is all that bad. Storing modules for refitting fleet ships shouldn't take all that much room. It's a battleship hull. It shouldn't be able to store another fleet inside itself. This, plus adding a bit to drone bandwith could really make this ship shine without bloating it up into already needing a nerf. A support ship should make OTHER ships look good, after all. I'm sure some nullsec powerhouse will eventually dream up a very nasty pvp version. Until then we will be experimenting with our fits.
And....if the Nestor is never going to be a jump capable ship, maybe you could think about giving black ops battleships a fleet fitting bay........oh the possibilities..... -áPeople are people. No matter what country, culture, religion, political party, business or communtiy you encounter in your travels, you will never find a shortage of people who will make it their personal mission in life to tell you how to live yours.
|
Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
371
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 17:58:00 -
[294] - Quote
Don't understand why dev are so stubborn ..
put the covert ops cloak on the ship already , give the ship the jump drive for god sake and give the remote rep some serious bonus
Anyway you 'll see with the carppy tweaks no one will use this ships like these days RENAME WH systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome.
GalMIl>>ALL |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12711
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 18:26:00 -
[295] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:Don't understand why dev are so stubborn ..
put the covert ops cloak on the ship already , give the ship the jump drive for god sake and give the remote rep some serious bonus
Anyway you 'll see with the carppy tweaks no one will use this ships like these days
You are not getting a cov ops battleship. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 18:39:00 -
[296] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:Don't understand why dev are so stubborn ..
put the covert ops cloak on the ship already , give the ship the jump drive for god sake and give the remote rep some serious bonus
Anyway you 'll see with the carppy tweaks no one will use this ships like these days
Give it 8/8/8 slots while your at it, and ofc stronger gun/drone bonuses.
Or leave it w/o cov ops cloak so you dont have to nerf it back to the stone age |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
189
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 20:41:00 -
[297] - Quote
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:Irya Boone wrote:Don't understand why dev are so stubborn ..
put the covert ops cloak on the ship already , give the ship the jump drive for god sake and give the remote rep some serious bonus
Anyway you 'll see with the carppy tweaks no one will use this ships like these days Give it 8/8/8 slots while your at it, and ofc stronger gun/drone bonuses. Or leave it w/o cov ops cloak so you dont have to nerf it back to the stone age Im fine with nerfing it and giving it a covops cloak. At least then ONE of the SoE ships will actually have something unique going for it. Remember how pirate ships are supposed to have some bonus that doesn't exist anywhere else? |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
109
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 20:59:00 -
[298] - Quote
Screw the covops, just the jump drive or GTFO. |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 21:22:00 -
[299] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Im fine with nerfing it and giving it a covops cloak. At least then ONE of the SoE ships will actually have something unique going for it. Remember how pirate ships are supposed to have some bonus that doesn't exist anywhere else?
Remember how SoE is not a pirate faction, and these ships are available in high sec? Ship Maintenance Bay is also kinda unique in high sec (only orca have it), its also the only exploration battleship, the remote rep bonus is also just shared with minmatar carrier/supercarrier (37.5% instead of 50% tho) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11080
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 21:54:00 -
[300] - Quote
Are you even trying, CCP?
The Nestor is still going to be a piece of ****. You tried to do too much with it, including shoehorning it into roles that don't make sense (exploration). No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh. |
|
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
189
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 22:05:00 -
[301] - Quote
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Im fine with nerfing it and giving it a covops cloak. At least then ONE of the SoE ships will actually have something unique going for it. Remember how pirate ships are supposed to have some bonus that doesn't exist anywhere else?
Remember how SoE is not a pirate faction, and these ships are available in high sec? Ship Maintenance Bay is also kinda unique in high sec (only orca have it), its also the only exploration battleship, the remote rep bonus is also just shared with minmatar carrier/supercarrier (37.5% instead of 50% tho) Yeah that's true, nestor stops being a pirate ship when it suits the poster's argument, and it goes back to being a pirate ship when it suits the poster's argument
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1026
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 23:41:00 -
[302] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Irya Boone wrote:Don't understand why dev are so stubborn ..
put the covert ops cloak on the ship already , give the ship the jump drive for god sake and give the remote rep some serious bonus
Anyway you 'll see with the carppy tweaks no one will use this ships like these days You are not getting a cov ops battleship.
Do you have any objection to the nestor gaining the ability to warped cloaked ONLY IN WORMHOLE SPACE? If CCP could work out the mechanics?
Because we have a real issue, roles and mechanics that are of great importance in wormhole space, which would be perfectly balanced there, fail miserably at being balanced, in Known space.
They are diverging more and more by the day, and trying to balance for both is going to break at some point. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 23:49:00 -
[303] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:baltec1 wrote:Irya Boone wrote:Don't understand why dev are so stubborn ..
put the covert ops cloak on the ship already , give the ship the jump drive for god sake and give the remote rep some serious bonus
Anyway you 'll see with the carppy tweaks no one will use this ships like these days You are not getting a cov ops battleship. Do you have any objection to the nestor gaining the ability to warped cloaked ONLY IN WORMHOLE SPACE? If CCP could work out the mechanics?
i do no battle ship should have a covert cloak
I do think the nestor would be nice if it could fit a covert cyno if we can't just give it a jump drive and bridge i would pay the iso cost to bridge it as a logi |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1026
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 23:51:00 -
[304] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:baltec1 wrote:Irya Boone wrote:Don't understand why dev are so stubborn ..
put the covert ops cloak on the ship already , give the ship the jump drive for god sake and give the remote rep some serious bonus
Anyway you 'll see with the carppy tweaks no one will use this ships like these days You are not getting a cov ops battleship. Do you have any objection to the nestor gaining the ability to warped cloaked ONLY IN WORMHOLE SPACE? If CCP could work out the mechanics? i do no battle ship should have a covert cloak I do think the nestor would be nice if it could fit a covert cyno if we can't just give it a jump drive and bridge i would pay the iso cost to bridge it as a logi
There are no cynos in wormhole space, so not sure on what you base your opinion, as to why they should not be allowed to warp cloaked only in wormhole space. Or to have wormhole specific features that ONLY function in wormhole space. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 00:00:00 -
[305] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:baltec1 wrote:Irya Boone wrote:Don't understand why dev are so stubborn ..
put the covert ops cloak on the ship already , give the ship the jump drive for god sake and give the remote rep some serious bonus
Anyway you 'll see with the carppy tweaks no one will use this ships like these days You are not getting a cov ops battleship. Do you have any objection to the nestor gaining the ability to warped cloaked ONLY IN WORMHOLE SPACE? If CCP could work out the mechanics? i do no battle ship should have a covert cloak I do think the nestor would be nice if it could fit a covert cyno if we can't just give it a jump drive and bridge i would pay the iso cost to bridge it as a logi There are no cynos in wormhole space, so not sure on what you base your opinion, as to why they should not be allowed to warp cloaked only in wormhole space. Or to have wormhole specific features that ONLY function in wormhole space.
that was my bad on formatting i meant they should never be allowed t o have a covert cloak anywhere and i was then giving my idea as to what i thought they should have. i didn't mean they should have that only in wh space |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1473
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 00:47:00 -
[306] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: that was my bad on formatting i meant they should never be allowed t o have a covert cloak anywhere and i was then giving my idea as to what i thought they should have. i didn't mean they should have that only in wh space
Really... And why is that? It's not fast warping. It's not fast aligning. It's not fast locking. It still has to actually lock it's target after it decloaks & the lock timer expires. So 5+BS Lock time on it's target..... Almost anything can warp off in that time if it's paying attention. This whole 'BS's should never have a covert cloak' is just one of those fears that has no reality behind it. Give it a Cov Cloak and you won't see 50000 Cloaked Nestors blocking out the sun. You just might see it occasionally supporting smaller cloaked ships. Same for the Black Ops, they could easily have a Cov cloak and not break things. |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 03:01:00 -
[307] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Joraa Starkmanir wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Im fine with nerfing it and giving it a covops cloak. At least then ONE of the SoE ships will actually have something unique going for it. Remember how pirate ships are supposed to have some bonus that doesn't exist anywhere else?
Remember how SoE is not a pirate faction, and these ships are available in high sec? Ship Maintenance Bay is also kinda unique in high sec (only orca have it), its also the only exploration battleship, the remote rep bonus is also just shared with minmatar carrier/supercarrier (37.5% instead of 50% tho) Yeah that's true, nestor stops being a pirate ship when it suits the poster's argument, and it goes back to being a pirate ship when it suits the poster's argument
I have never regarded Nestor to be a pirate battleship, if i have somewhere called it that i am truly sorry. It is a multi faction ship, and the only other multifaction ships are pirate ships so there is perhaps some merit to calling it that. However SoE have no history with piracy or spectacular combat ships, they do have good ties to exploration that this ship keeps.
It cost the exact same amount of LP to buy a Nestor BPC as it does for Vindi/NM/Mach/Bhaal, what people tend to forget is that this happens in 0.0 where you have to go for the other ships also. So from game design point of view it cost the same as pirate battleships, the higher cost is all based on supply/demand and a free market.
What special bonus would you give it, when most already agree that cov ops should not happen? |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 03:03:00 -
[308] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: that was my bad on formatting i meant they should never be allowed t o have a covert cloak anywhere and i was then giving my idea as to what i thought they should have. i didn't mean they should have that only in wh space
Really... And why is that? It's not fast warping. It's not fast aligning. It's not fast locking. It still has to actually lock it's target after it decloaks & the lock timer expires. So 5+BS Lock time on it's target..... Almost anything can warp off in that time if it's paying attention. This whole 'BS's should never have a covert cloak' is just one of those fears that has no reality behind it. Give it a Cov Cloak and you won't see 50000 Cloaked Nestors blocking out the sun. You just might see it occasionally supporting smaller cloaked ships. Same for the Black Ops, they could easily have a Cov cloak and not break things.
If cov ops is not that good, why do you want it?
Simple fact is that people that want cov ops cloak mean that it would be a big boost to the ship overall, and the people that dont want it dont want that boost.
Would you be willing to give up bonused drones and/or RR bonus for a cov ops cloak? |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3766
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 04:05:00 -
[309] - Quote
This thing needs to be killed with fire. Go back to the drawing board and start from scratch. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12712
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 04:28:00 -
[310] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:This thing needs to be killed with fire. Go back to the drawing board and start from scratch.
Nope.
People just need to start thinking with their grey matter and fit it for the job at hand. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
176
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 10:06:00 -
[311] - Quote
Welcome tweaks. Anything that improves the Nestor's current position. And I approve how this new theme of small, fast changes allows for changes like this one.
First, it's good to see its price might go down. As posted many times before, its cost is one of its biggest problems.
The Ship Maintenance Bay is quite curious. Seems to be designed just to allow refits, instead of carrying ships with it. Well, it being a WH ship, I imagine it as a good mobile base for Strategic Cruisers to swap subsystems, since they can now do that in space.
Reduced sig radius is nice too.
If I were to propose more changes, I would first look at the hacking bonus. Even though it's a theme for SoE ships, it does not work well in a battleship. I'd suggest to change that bonus for another one, more useful for such a ship. I won't suggest covops cloak or bridge capability: not even Black Ops can fit covops cloak and they still work well, and I don't think the Nestor needs a bridge (also, since it is a WH ship, it would be useless). Instead, I would give it the same cloaking capabilities as Black Ops: increased cloaked velocity and zero targeting delay. That way it would fill a new role: a Black Ops Logistics Drone Boat with sniping lasers and armor tanked. Sounds like a hospital ship with some teeth; I think it would fit very well with the SoE theme.
And, no offense intended, but I see too many people ranting about it not being what they want it to be or not liking it because it doesn't fill an already covered role. It is a WH ship, which can rep as much as 2.5 Guardians, bring drones, and even snipe a bit with lasers. Yes, it still needs some help, perhaps even having its repping bonuses affect shield reppers too, but I don't think it needs a covops, a bridge, or a bigger maintenance bay. It's simply not its role. Just my opinion though. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1397
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 10:58:00 -
[312] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:This thing needs to be killed with fire. Go back to the drawing board and start from scratch.
You are so dumb. You are really dumb, for real! The Tears Must Flow |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1473
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 11:05:00 -
[313] - Quote
Joraa Starkmanir wrote: If cov ops is not that good, why do you want it?
Simple fact is that people that want cov ops cloak mean that it would be a big boost to the ship overall, and the people that dont want it dont want that boost.
Would you be willing to give up bonused drones and/or RR bonus for a cov ops cloak?
Because the SoE Ship line was meant to be a cloaky exploration/roaming based ship line. Which the Nestor is not currently designed as. I quite happily would give up the RR bonus and have exactly the same bonuses as the Stratios on it (Designed for the correct size of ship obviously). Rather than a bunch of bonuses that don't actually match each other, and instead seem designed by a committee of 100.
Also, I never said it wouldn't be good, I said it wouldn't be OP. |
Artenso Vestindal
Dark Flames of Amarr
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 13:00:00 -
[314] - Quote
So, Nestor begins to have a role in fleet... And quite nice one with refitting feature
Now, what about making it even more fleet-support based? -remove virus coherence bonuses -remove +50% laser optimal range -can fit warfare link (or maybe even 3 like command ships?) inetria 0,25x (half mass->double inertia) |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 13:39:00 -
[315] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Also, I never said it wouldn't be good, I said it wouldn't be OP.
That is where those that want cov ops cloak and those that dont disagree, bouth sides agree that it would be better with it and 1 side think that would make it to good :P
Same bonus as Stratios wouldbe no RR amount or range, and most likely loose 25mb so it can only field 4 heavy/sentry and 5 range bonused guns.
Artenso Vestindal wrote:So, Nestor begins to have a role in fleet... And quite nice one with refitting feature Now, what about making it even more fleet-support based? -remove virus coherence bonuses -remove +50% laser optimal range -can fit warfare link (or maybe even 3 like command ships?) inetria 0,25x (half mass->double inertia)
Was stated inb the original Nestor thread that virus bonus DONT take the place for another bonus, removing it would therefor not grant access to a "better" bonus in any way or form. I do support removing laser bonus for something that can help it with fleet support |
Artenso Vestindal
Dark Flames of Amarr
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 15:14:00 -
[316] - Quote
Joraa Starkmanir wrote: Was stated in the original Nestor thread that virus bonus DONT take the place for another bonus, removing it would therefor not grant access to a "better" bonus in any way or form. I do support removing laser bonus for something that can help it with fleet support
OK, just to clarify, I didn't mean that virus coherence removal to be something like 'way to grant access to better bonus', it just doesn't fit a support ship role, therefore it could be removed to make its role more 'pure'. (in fact, that same reason was behind laser opt range removal suggestion...)
So there is my idea behind those suggestions above: Nestor would remain with purely support role bonuses, combining all support parts in fleet diving into unknown (therefor maintaining idea for general trait of SOE ships for exploration) - someone to scan way, logistics and warfare links. And refitting based on WH type after patch. At the same time, there will remain ships that will do theese stuff better (or at least drastically cheaper), but are specifically build towards one of theese, so Nestor will be 'take 1 ship in cost of 10 to free 2 positions in fleet' |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 15:17:00 -
[317] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Do you have any objection to the nestor gaining the ability to warped cloaked ONLY IN WORMHOLE SPACE? If CCP could work out the mechanics? I'm sure CCP could work out the mechanics very easily. Bomb launchers show that they can tie modules to specific kinds of space. However, lore-wise and gameplay-wise, "this cloak on this ship can only be used in this kind of situation, even though there are tons of cloaks on other ships that can do it more generally" is really dumb and has no place in this game.
CCP's said before, if they add covert ops cloaks to black ops battleships, they will nerf their tank and DPS to compensate. If the Nestor gets a covert ops cloak, I doubt it'll be the result anyone wants. |
RTSAvalanche
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 19:23:00 -
[318] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:all types of "Sentient" rogue drone commander NPCs, especially from the Sentient Alvus battleships.
So these can drop in both Null & Low sec ? |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:09:00 -
[319] - Quote
Pretty good changes. I always felt the main problem with this ship was the price. Making it Blops bridgeable might be ok. But even blops BS do not fit a cov ops cloak...... |
Itrala
Tycoon Innovations
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:49:00 -
[320] - Quote
I see the Nestor as a big RR BS, something truly unique, it does have something that other ships doesnt have. bonus to amount.
Yes guardian are there. but they are T2 ships not T1
I would effectivly remove the virus bonus. Instead of laser range bonus damage bonus Drones are good right now. more fitting option? PG and CPU wise it"s not very good capacitor usage bonus to help him out a bit to be able to fit 4 armor RR and 2 cap Xfer low +1 mids -1 would make it a true armor tank.
Fitting for it would make it a good help in lvl 5 and Wh to run PVE PVP small gate camp would like him as well.
I might actually get one to RR people and put my drones on assist on someone |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 00:34:00 -
[321] - Quote
[quote=Itrala]I see the Nestor as a big RR BS, something truly unique, it does have something that other ships doesnt have. bonus to amount.
/quote]
T1 logi have a bonus per amount that said i do like the idea of the RR BS and with the fleet maint bay its like a mini carrier for newer pilots that don't have the SP i do hope the price drops below a carriers however |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1473
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 02:10:00 -
[322] - Quote
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:battleships, they will nerf their tank and DPS to compensate. If the Nestor gets a covert ops cloak, I doubt it'll be the result anyone wants. And then several months later CCP will see that it's not as OP as the underpants market brigade claimed it would be in order to sell more underpants, and will give all that tank & DPS back, and we will have finally gotten over the outright fear of Cov Cloaks on a BS. Considering T3's with a Cov Cloak can have more tank and similar DPS to Black Op's BS's already...... While merely a cruiser which is vastly faster to train to.
That said, I'm fine with the Nestor becoming an actual fleet support BS also, provided that it actually has a real role and isn't 'second best at most things' kitchen sink approach which it is currently. |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 02:28:00 -
[323] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Considering T3's with a Cov Cloak can have more tank and similar DPS to Black Op's BS's already...... While merely a cruiser which is vastly faster to train to.
As long as T3 have not yet been rebalanced, its not a good comparison to make. IF they still have same dps/tank after the balance its another story.
Can also consider that 5 bonused drones + 4 range bonused medium lasers was to strong for Stratios, we can only assume that 5 bonused drones + 5 range bonused lasers that have longer range and longer base range would also be considered to much |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12720
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 03:46:00 -
[324] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: And then several months later CCP will see that it's not as OP as the underpants market brigade claimed it would be in order to sell more underpants, and will give all that tank & DPS back, and we will have finally gotten over the outright fear of Cov Cloaks on a BS.
No they won't.
Incidentally, T3 are in line for a savage nerf when their balance pass arrives. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3766
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 04:48:00 -
[325] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:No they won't. Incidentally, T3 are in line for a savage nerf when their balance pass arrives. That's the rumour, but I'll believe it when I see it. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12720
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 04:51:00 -
[326] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:No they won't. Incidentally, T3 are in line for a savage nerf when their balance pass arrives. That's the rumour, but I'll believe it when I see it.
They are slated to be between T1 and T2. A big nerf is guaranteed. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3766
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 04:54:00 -
[327] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They are slated to be between T1 and T2. A big nerf is guaranteed. Time will tell. But if the Ishtar is any indication, it's going to be death of 1000 cutsGǪ That is unless they give it to CCP Rise. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12720
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 05:18:00 -
[328] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:They are slated to be between T1 and T2. A big nerf is guaranteed. Time will tell. But if the Ishtar is any indication, it's going to be death of 1000 cutsGǪ That is unless they give it to CCP Rise.
I for one cannot wait for it to happen, the rage induced tears will be biblical. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3766
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 05:32:00 -
[329] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I for one cannot wait for it to happen, the rage induced tears will be biblical. You're truly evil. You know that, right? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12720
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 06:51:00 -
[330] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:I for one cannot wait for it to happen, the rage induced tears will be biblical. You're truly evil. You know that, right?
I know Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1473
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 09:44:00 -
[331] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: They are slated to be between T1 and T2. A big nerf is guaranteed.
Certain subsystems are due a savage nerf. Others are due a massive buff. Considering when in a Cov Ops config they aren't anywhere near where they are in some other configs in tank & DPS, I wouldn't be surprised if the cov ops configs came out somewhere similar, except for maybe nullification and Cov Ops not being able to be paired anymore, so you have to pick one or the other.
Though I agree on awaiting the epic tears from the subsystems which do get nerfed, I'm gleefully awaiting them also. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1913
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 18:31:00 -
[332] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: And then several months later CCP will see that it's not as OP as the underpants market brigade claimed it would be in order to sell more underpants, and will give all that tank & DPS back, and we will have finally gotten over the outright fear of Cov Cloaks on a BS.
No they won't. Incidentally, T3 are in line for a savage nerf when their balance pass arrives.
actually they are not... what will happen though is under used sub sections will be boosted There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 18:59:00 -
[333] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: And then several months later CCP will see that it's not as OP as the underpants market brigade claimed it would be in order to sell more underpants, and will give all that tank & DPS back, and we will have finally gotten over the outright fear of Cov Cloaks on a BS.
No they won't. Incidentally, T3 are in line for a savage nerf when their balance pass arrives. actually they are not... what will happen though is under used sub sections will be boosted
and the over used ones are getting nerffed T3 were ment to be placed between T1 and T2 power wise and gain a slight adv over the T2 when overheating |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 19:36:00 -
[334] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:MeBiatch wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: And then several months later CCP will see that it's not as OP as the underpants market brigade claimed it would be in order to sell more underpants, and will give all that tank & DPS back, and we will have finally gotten over the outright fear of Cov Cloaks on a BS.
No they won't. Incidentally, T3 are in line for a savage nerf when their balance pass arrives. actually they are not... what will happen though is under used sub sections will be boosted and the over used ones are getting nerffed T3 were ment to be placed between T1 and T2 power wise and gain a slight adv over the T2 when overheating The T3 overheating bonus needs to be strengthened a bit. But yes, I would anticipate the popular subsystems to get a kick in the 'nads |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12722
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 19:58:00 -
[335] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote: The T3 overheating bonus needs to be strengthened a bit. But yes, I would anticipate the popular subsystems to get a kick in the 'nads
I'm hoping for the cov ops and nullifier no longer being able to be fitted at the same time. Partly because it was daft to have them both on in the first place but mostly because of the rage that would follow. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3766
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 20:10:00 -
[336] - Quote
I think you're going to see a shield and armour strength subsystem reduction from 10%/level to 5%/level. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Mazzara
Gale Force Contractors
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 01:15:00 -
[337] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function. Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships. - Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer. - Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system. - SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay. Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle? (And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.)
I like this idea alot No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use,-áyou can't wash shame! |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12722
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 04:02:00 -
[338] - Quote
Mazzara wrote:XvXTeacherVxV wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function. Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships. - Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer. - Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system. - SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay. Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle? (And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.) I like this idea alot
I would rather have the bay large enough to hold a frigate.
That way your roaming gang has a replacement intercepter or cov ops. Downright handy. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 06:18:00 -
[339] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I would rather have the bay large enough to hold a frigate.
That way your roaming gang has a replacement intercepter or cov ops. Downright handy.
Good idea of logistic BS. Drop scanning/hacking bonuses and make this logi/drones BS with hangar. SoE mothership.
baltec1 wrote:I'm hoping for the cov ops and nullifier no longer being able to be fitted at the same time. Partly because it was daft to have them both on in the first place but mostly because of the rage that would follow.
Never going to happen, nullifier would be useless. Also making T3 somewhere beetwen T1 and T2 wouldn't be wise (what T1,5?). Everybody wants to fly best ships in current class, T3 is best. If you nerf them so much why the hell anybody would want to fly this things? Because you can build your own ship with subsystems? Skill points loss? It should be best among cruisers but worse than BS. I'm really curious what they will do to T3, there will be oceans of tears, all those rage quits. I'm tired of "we will nerf module but it will be better if you overheat it". Try it with painter on PvE BS...Everytime i see Fozzieman post i expect he will took some fun and gave nothing in return. Sometimes i have no idea what is the idea behind ship balancing.
Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12724
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 06:40:00 -
[340] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:baltec1 wrote:I would rather have the bay large enough to hold a frigate.
That way your roaming gang has a replacement intercepter or cov ops. Downright handy. Good idea of logistic BS. Drop scanning/hacking bonuses and make this logi/drones BS with hangar. SoE mothership. baltec1 wrote:I'm hoping for the cov ops and nullifier no longer being able to be fitted at the same time. Partly because it was daft to have them both on in the first place but mostly because of the rage that would follow. Never going to happen, nullifier would be useless. Also making T3 somewhere beetwen T1 and T2 wouldn't be wise (what T1,5?). Everybody wants to fly best ships in current class, T3 is best. If you nerf them so much why the hell anybody would want to fly this things? Because you can build your own ship with subsystems? Skill points loss? It should be best among cruisers but worse than BS. I'm really curious what they will do to T3, there will be oceans of tears, all those rage quits. I'm tired of "we will nerf module but it will be better if you overheat it". Try it with painter on PvE BS...Everytime i see Fozzieman post i expect he will took some fun and gave nothing in return. Sometimes i have no idea what is the idea behind ship balancing.
Nullifier would still be a great fleet asset and T3 is slated to land between T1 and T2. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 06:58:00 -
[341] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nullifier would still be a great fleet asset... Focused Warp Disruption Script and no point of bringing this subsystem. Am i right?
baltec1 ... wrote:and T3 is slated to land between T1 and T2.
I was wrong. Riots not tears, bloody riots, and useless hulls. Whole swiss army knife idea. Sooo wrong, but it's not my circus, not my monkeys.
Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:01:00 -
[342] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Never going to happen, nullifier would be useless. Also making T3 somewhere beetwen T1 and T2 wouldn't be wise (what T1,5?). Everybody wants to fly best ships in current class, T3 is best. If you nerf them so much why the hell anybody would want to fly this things? Because you can build your own ship with subsystems? Skill points loss? It should be best among cruisers but worse than BS. I'm really curious what they will do to T3, there will be oceans of tears, all those rage quits. I'm tired of "we will nerf module but it will be better if you overheat it". Try it with painter on PvE BS...Everytime i see Fozzieman post i expect he will took some fun and gave nothing in return. Sometimes i have no idea what is the idea behind ship balancing.
Between T1 and T2 in spesific roles -Less dps than the highest T2 cruiser, but more then T1 cruisers. -Less EHP / tank than the tankiest T2 cruiser but more than T1 cruisers. -Less speed than the fastest T2 cruiser, but more than T1 cruisers. -Less potent EWAR than T2 cruisers, but better than T1 cruisers.
A good example is Loki EWAR subsystem Loki get +30% range / level Minmatar Recons have +60% range for web and 10% TP bonus / level Bellicose dont get web range but +7,5% TP bonuse / level Here we see T3 getting alot of use with only haft the web bonus that its T2 counterpart get, and that is due to EHP that the Recons can not compare with.
So its pretty easy to imagine that a lower bonus compared to T2 will still be very much usefull and worth it as long as it better in another area than the spesific T2 (in this example Loki is alot more tanky compared to bouth the recons) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12725
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:26:00 -
[343] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nullifier would still be a great fleet asset... Focused Warp Disruption Script and no point of bringing this subsystem. Am i right? baltec1 ... wrote:and T3 is slated to land between T1 and T2. I was wrong. Riots not tears, bloody riots, and useless hulls. Whole swiss army knife idea. Sooo wrong, but it's not my circus, not my monkeys.
Good luck getting 150-200 focused points.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:53:00 -
[344] - Quote
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:So its pretty easy to imagine that a lower bonus compared to T2 will still be very much usefull and worth it as long as it better in another area than the spesific T2 (in this example Loki is alot more tanky compared to bouth the recons)
EHP will be nerfed in the first place because is insane OP, so lower "role" bonus and nerfed EHP will cause meh ships. People always will choose best ship for the role, not good.
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:Between T1 and T2 in spesific roles -Less dps than the highest T2 cruiser, but more then T1 cruisers. -Less EHP / tank than the tankiest T2 cruiser but more than T1 cruisers. -Less speed than the fastest T2 cruiser, but more than T1 cruisers. -Less potent EWAR than T2 cruisers, but better than T1 cruisers.
What is the key word here? Less. If you can mix these as less dps than T2 but more EHP than one or better speed but less EHP that's the direction i think. Work for years. They can't even balance "ordinary" ships and Seagull was threating they will bring new ones in the near future (this year i presume). Nestor is good example.
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:Here we see T3 getting alot of use with only haft the web bonus that its T2 counterpart get, and that is due to EHP that the Recons can not compare with. And if you remove the EHP, which is OP, T3 will not be used in this role anymore. Balance. Switching one ship to another. Good times ahead, forums will burn
Where the any ships with hangar bay to carry frigates in the past? Is Nestor usefull in WHs? What is it purpose anyway? Clearly not exploration. I saw one undocked few day ago... Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:59:00 -
[345] - Quote
I dont think EHP will be nerfed to anywhere close to current Recon stats (wet paper bag). Sure it will most likely get a nerf, but boosting the other parts of the ships may very well make up for it. Lets say you can use a T3 with 90% of the repping compared to a Logistic cruiser, and almost as good EWAR as recons completed with close to top tier EHP/sig tank for cruisers. That would mean you can take 1 pilot to logi+ewar OR you can take the same 2 pilots and get more use out of bouth.
To be completly honest i ahve not looked at all the configurations a T3 can do atm (good or bad) but a ship that can do several roles should never be better than a ship dedicated to a single role
EDIT: since this is getting away from the Nestor i think we just have to agree we dont agree on T3 balance |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:05:00 -
[346] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Good luck getting 150-200 focused points.
"You may say i'm a dreamer but i'm not the only one..." again, it won't hits TQ, way too overpowered. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
265
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 14:15:00 -
[347] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:Upon further investigation into the Nestor I came up with a few changes I would implement.
Power Grid: 13000 (+1750) Max Velocity: 100 (+8) Signature: 420 (-45) Sensor Strength: 26 (+2) Roles:
10+ bonus to Relic and Data Analyzer virus strength 50% Reduction in Remote Armor Repair Capacitor Usage
Fozzie, what are your thoughts? Any more changes you are looking at? |
Vulfen
Snuff Box
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 14:34:00 -
[348] - Quote
Fozzie
Please get rid of the Relic & Analyzer bonuses, also remove the scan strength bonuses Noone will use this ship to do this role, its plain pointless
I would like to see a RR cap bonus added, somewhere between 25-50%
I agree with not giving this a jumpdrive or covert abilities however, how about a role note that says it can be jumped through a cov ops bridge? this way they can travel with a cov ops fleet however due to its mass not many can go through a bridge at once.
|
BFE
Thee Almitee Ones
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 15:23:00 -
[349] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage.
Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a BS, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus.
|
BFE
Thee Almitee Ones
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 15:28:00 -
[350] - Quote
AtomYcX wrote:Is Ship Maintenance Bay a typo for Fleet Hangar? A 5000m3 SMB makes no sense as you can't fit any ships in it (well, a single shuttle).
IMO, the Ship Maintenance Bay is fine.... it's just to be used to refit your own ship. However, it would be MUCH more useful with a 5k m3 Corp Hangar too, to actually keep modules in to BE refit. |
|
BFE
Thee Almitee Ones
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 15:39:00 -
[351] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.
I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function. Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships. - Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer. - Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system. - SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay. Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle? (And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.)
+1 |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12725
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 16:14:00 -
[352] - Quote
BFE wrote:AtomYcX wrote:Is Ship Maintenance Bay a typo for Fleet Hangar? A 5000m3 SMB makes no sense as you can't fit any ships in it (well, a single shuttle). IMO, the Ship Maintenance Bay is fine.... it's just to be used to refit your own ship. However, it would be MUCH more useful with a 5k m3 Corp Hangar too, to actually keep modules in to BE refit.
Still a fan of it getting a ship bay that can hold a single frigate. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 17:15:00 -
[353] - Quote
BFE wrote:Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a BS, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus.
So people actually using it for exploration in WHs? Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
265
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 17:32:00 -
[354] - Quote
BFE wrote:TheMercenaryKing wrote:So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage. Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a BS, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus.
Thus the reason why I said "I am not sure" and "Nor do I know". I do not know how often it is used for the purpose and how effective it is, but if only 50 people are using it when it could be modified for 5000 people, I would take that modification in a heart beat. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
707
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 18:26:00 -
[355] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:BFE wrote:TheMercenaryKing wrote:So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage. Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a BS, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus. Thus the reason why I said "I am not sure" and "Nor do I know". I do not know how often it is used for the purpose and how effective it is, but if only 50 people are using it when it could be modified for 5000 people, I would take that modification in a heart beat.
Except Rise stated more than once the hacking bonuses were freebie bonuses not part of the ships balance, and even if removed would not be replaced with anything. |
Demotress
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
22
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 00:12:00 -
[356] - Quote
why not just turn it into something useful like a blops with some dps but pretty much like a logistics blops. maybe than people will use it and drop it with blops fleets. |
Fortorn Lonshanks
Adeptus Incursio
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 11:13:00 -
[357] - Quote
Well that refitting bay is a welcome change. I would like to propose another change as well. Currently, this ship favors armor fleets almost exclusively.
Please make repair bonuses to shields and armor or introduce a new ship that mirrors the Nestor with shield repair bonuses.
What are/were the arguments against this type of change? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12733
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 15:44:00 -
[358] - Quote
Fortorn Lonshanks wrote:Well that refitting bay is a welcome change. I would like to propose another change as well. Currently, this ship favors armor fleets almost exclusively.
Please make repair bonuses to shields and armor or introduce a new ship that mirrors the Nestor with shield repair bonuses.
What are/were the arguments against this type of change?
A two for one RR ship would be too much.
Another ship for shield RR I can agree with. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11136
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:04:00 -
[359] - Quote
Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6) Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Conjaq
Mid-Grade Mercenaries Courageous Cowards
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:08:00 -
[360] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
While these changes are very interesting(And absolutely unique), i do not see what relevance they have in the usability of the ship itself.
It's still bad for wormholes, i can see the bling of flying the nestor, but it's still WAY more effective to use ships like a tengu. 350 mill ship, versus 1,5 billion... hmm
And high-sec wars, why even balance around that? .. Seriously. |
|
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:12:00 -
[361] - Quote
I'm certainly not complaining about the changes you've made etc, some of them I really do welcome, and I'm very glad you're taking a look at it again.
I find the cargospace of the Nestor a bit lackluster when compared to the huge bay space of the Stratios. (I'd love to have a rig or module that converted drone space to cargo space...)
I would also like to add that I've heard of lots of cases of the current Nestor being used as a remote shield repair ship in Wormholes. A lot of people are wanting a combat ship to replace their Tengus etc, but so many seem to forget it's a support/exploration ship at heart. And I love using it in those roles :)
Good work Fozzie! |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:14:00 -
[362] - Quote
Conjaq wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6) While these changes are very interesting(And absolutely unique), i do not see what relevance they have in the usability of the ship itself. It's still bad for wormholes, i can see the bling of flying the nestor, but it's still WAY more effective to use ships like a tengu. 350 mill ship, versus 1,5 billion... hmm And high-sec wars, why even balance around that? .. Seriously.
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
882
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:15:00 -
[363] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
this is just ridiculous..... Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11215
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:17:00 -
[364] - Quote
Still doesn't really make me want to use the ship, and I think a lot of people would probably agree with me. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
882
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:18:00 -
[365] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
i mean come on ..... talk about breaking things .. square pegs round holes .... its mass was already very low ... its now basically a triple plated harbinger ... you can't possibly tell me this makes sense??? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3444
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:26:00 -
[366] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
This isn't enough to make the ship appealing overall (it needs more damage output, or just *something* else).
However, it does make it significantly harder to scan down - it's harder to scan down now than a Myrmidon, which is an overall improvement to its usefulness at some tasks. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
468
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:26:00 -
[367] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
I appreciate all of your work Fozzie, I really do. I just feel that with the Nestor you're still just dancing around the issue with your eyes closed.
I am getting the impression that your hands might be a little tied when it comes to this ship. Most of the community are asking for a rethink of the ships role and to move away from the "jack of all trades" design. I am in that group myself.
I do believe that this ship should be the T1 BLOPs ship and should lose the RR abilities. What this ship is trying to do is too much in one hull and it shows. I think it would be amazing if the ship retained it's SMA though as that could be it's "quirk" in the BLOPs set.
You could create a BC that could be the RR support ship within this line up and even toy with the idea of it being covert. It wouldn't have more offensive capabilites than a Stratios, it would simply just have more tank, capacitor and sensor strength and be slower. So a covert BC with RR abilities wouldn't be a big deal.
|
Conjaq
Mid-Grade Mercenaries Courageous Cowards
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:28:00 -
[368] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Conjaq wrote:
And high-sec wars, why even balance around that? .. Seriously.
Because there are a lot of people involved in HS wars and slowcatting Nestors siting on the undock would be broken if you can't bump them off
Still high-sec "wars" should never be a balance point.
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1751
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:30:00 -
[369] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
That is crazy! ... but i like it
If i haven't got bored with the lack of new things to do in wormhole space in a month or so, I might buy one. +1 |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:32:00 -
[370] - Quote
Conjaq wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Conjaq wrote:
And high-sec wars, why even balance around that? .. Seriously.
Because there are a lot of people involved in HS wars and slowcatting Nestors siting on the undock would be broken if you can't bump them off Still high-sec "wars" should never be a balance point.
And why exactly is that? Part of what makes balancing so hard is that things need to be balanced in all places they are used. |
|
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11139
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:37:00 -
[371] - Quote
Conjaq wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Conjaq wrote:
And high-sec wars, why even balance around that? .. Seriously.
Because there are a lot of people involved in HS wars and slowcatting Nestors siting on the undock would be broken if you can't bump them off Still high-sec "wars" should never be a balance point.
Every legitimate player-controlled use of a ship is a balance point. Highsec use is just as valid as any other use. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
278
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:44:00 -
[372] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Every legitimate player-controlled use of a ship is a balance point. Highsec use is just as valid as any other use.
Wooooft, now you've gone and done it |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
278
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:45:00 -
[373] - Quote
Double post |
Darren Fox
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:47:00 -
[374] - Quote
I definately see potential |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
768
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:48:00 -
[375] - Quote
please just give up and redesign SOE as something good |
Gosti Kahanid
GANOR Deep Space Explorers GANOR INC.
56
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:53:00 -
[376] - Quote
Looking back at the logistic-capabilities oft the Nestor: How about changing the Bonus from Remot Armor Repair to remote Armor and Shield repair? Also a bonus to reduce the Cap-Usage of said Repair Modules so you don-¦t get so much problems with cap while using it, while still having a Cap-Problem when using other Modules (like Lasers or eWar). With this the Nestor could be a viable BS-Logistic Ship with a Drone-Damage-Support |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
64
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 12:42:00 -
[377] - Quote
Fozzie The Great Tears Collector, can you describe in one sentence the purpose of this hull? How you see it in line of others SoE hulls? It would be a great start to discuss. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á
I am the night. I'm Bantam. |
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 14:28:00 -
[378] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
With inertia that high, aren't we looking at align times of upwards of 32.75s with MWD running (and that with all skills V, and before you start adding plates)? I like that the mass is being driven way down to (at least in theory) narrow the T3 mass advantage, but I'm a bit concerned that the high inertia cripples combat maneuverability. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
706
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 14:49:00 -
[379] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6) I'm not going to say this is a bad change, because I really can't evaluate it, but I think everything that's being done with the Nestor makes it clear that nobody has any idea what to do with it. You're just sort of throwing random bonuses at it that don't really work together in any coherent way. I think you might do better to just scrap the idea of minor tweaks to it in favor of just brainstorming for an overall vision for the ship, and then go from there. Because otherwise you're just going to wind up with it being a useless ship because for any one task it's not all that good, until there's some combination of its many random bonuses that does something gamebreaking, it gets popular for the first time ever, and then you have to jump in and nerf it. Because there's no way you get to a good balance through this sort of picking out random bonuses procedure. |
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3330
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 15:39:00 -
[380] - Quote
Removed a double post. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
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Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 16:48:00 -
[381] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote: I'm not going to say this is a bad change, because I really can't evaluate it, but I think everything that's being done with the Nestor makes it clear that nobody has any idea what to do with it. You're just sort of throwing random bonuses at it that don't really work together in any coherent way. .
Funny how some players seem to display a total lack of imagination and are asking for any ship to fit into their mental patterns, totally ignoring that other players may find a use for it... It is a good thing for the game to create ships that do not fit into any current patterns, let the community find out a way to use them.
the current approach on the Nestor is a great one... Keep it up CCP.
Edit: I did not notice before it was posted by a goon... How am I not surprised?! "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
44
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:20:00 -
[382] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
Changes are great and all, but this helps the Nestor do... what exactly? Sure, now it can enter C1 wormholes but why would anyone want to take it there?
These changes may give players more options when using the Nestor, but that's NEVER been the problem. The Nestor is a swiss army knife, basic tools for dozens of jobs, but never good enough to get the job done properly.
You didn't hear players asking for a dedicated repair/scanning/wormhole/refitting/drone battleship before the Nestor, because they choose the proper tool for the job at hand. It's not used to scan or hack because it's too slow compared to frigs and cruisers, it's rarely used as a logistics because it's to slow for small gang roams and outdone by carriers in major engagements, it's rarely used in wormholes because it lacks the stealth to be used in roams...
If they have the option players always choose the ship that excels for the job at hand; They rarely, if ever are concerned with every eventuality. If they want to fight, they'll take a AF/AC to deal and take the damage, if they want to scout wormholes they usually prefer stealth and probe bonuses, if they want to repair they choose logistics. If they want to go from one to another they don't fit for both jobs, they switch ships.
The best thing you could do to the Nestor right now is loose it's ability to do everything, and gain the ability to do a few things exceptionally well. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12755
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:34:00 -
[383] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
Interesting but I would say allowing it to fit a single frigate in the ship bay would have has more success in selling this ship to small gangs. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Conjaq
Mid-Grade Mercenaries Courageous Cowards
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:55:00 -
[384] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote: I'm not going to say this is a bad change, because I really can't evaluate it, but I think everything that's being done with the Nestor makes it clear that nobody has any idea what to do with it. You're just sort of throwing random bonuses at it that don't really work together in any coherent way. .
Funny how some players seem to display a total lack of imagination and are asking for any ship to fit into their mental patterns, totally ignoring that other players may find a use for it... It is a good thing for the game to create ships that do not fit into any current patterns, let the community find out a way to use them. the current approach on the Nestor is a great one... Keep it up CCP. Edit: I did not notice before it was posted by a goon... How am I not surprised?!
I'd like to hear what you think the nestor can be used for...
|
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:01:00 -
[385] - Quote
Just to illustrate my earlier concerns about prop mod align time, here's a table showing the align times and max. velocities of various [Hyperion] Nestor fits with and without skills. Align time for a double-plated, 100MN MWD Nestor will be somewhere in the 35.38 - 53.72 second range. Replace those plates with nanos and you get down to a low of 23.79s. Obviously, this impacts not only time to warp (since that's easily solved by turning off the MWD, and doesn't factor in terribly much on jump-in), but also maneuverability in combat. Note that even with these changes (and assuming no prop mod), the Nestor's agility is only middle-of-the-road for pirate battleships; the Vindicator, Machariel, and Barghest all align more quickly. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12755
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:40:00 -
[386] - Quote
Divi Filus wrote:Just to illustrate my earlier concerns about prop mod align time, here's a table showing the align times and max. velocities of various [Hyperion] Nestor fits with and without skills. Align time for a double-plated, 100MN MWD Nestor will be somewhere in the 35.38 - 53.72 second range. Replace those plates with nanos and you get down to a low of 23.79s. Obviously, this impacts not only time to warp (since that's easily solved by turning off the MWD, and doesn't factor in terribly much on jump-in), but also maneuverability in combat. Note that even with these changes (and assuming no prop mod), the Nestor's agility is only middle-of-the-road for pirate battleships; the Vindicator, Machariel, and Barghest all align more quickly. Basically, I'm worried that you get a ship that either tops out slower than an Archon, or turns slower than an Archon.
Those tables are missleading.
For example on paper my mengu megathron should align slower than a tengu however in practice it aligns roughly the same or better. Until you can play around with it on sisi you cant really know how well its going to act in game just based upon the paper stats. How you fit, fly and even the pilots mentality and experience all play a part. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
XvXTeacherVxV
Dayman Industries
105
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:48:00 -
[387] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.
Between the price change, mass change and the fitting service, I feel like the Nestor is starting to look like a ship with a purpose of sorts... but why aren't you letting the ship bay hold a frigate? Is that overpowered somehow? Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE |
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:57:00 -
[388] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Divi Filus wrote:Just to illustrate my earlier concerns about prop mod align time, here's a table showing the align times and max. velocities of various [Hyperion] Nestor fits with and without skills. Align time for a double-plated, 100MN MWD Nestor will be somewhere in the 35.38 - 53.72 second range. Replace those plates with nanos and you get down to a low of 23.79s. Obviously, this impacts not only time to warp (since that's easily solved by turning off the MWD, and doesn't factor in terribly much on jump-in), but also maneuverability in combat. Note that even with these changes (and assuming no prop mod), the Nestor's agility is only middle-of-the-road for pirate battleships; the Vindicator, Machariel, and Barghest all align more quickly. Basically, I'm worried that you get a ship that either tops out slower than an Archon, or turns slower than an Archon. Those tables are missleading. For example on paper my mengu megathron should align slower than a tengu however in practice it aligns roughly the same or better. Until you can play around with it on sisi you cant really know how well its going to act in game just based upon the paper stats. How you fit, fly and even the pilots mentality and experience all play a part.
If your Megathron should align slower than a Tengu "on paper," but actually aligns faster "in practice," your paper is probably wrong. The tables aren't misleading. It's just math. If you're misled, don't blame the tables.
In any case, we're not talking a margin of error of a fraction of a second, or even a few seconds. We're talking about a Nestor that takes 82.9% longer to align than a Rattlesnake if both are under MWDGÇöor "merely" 32.9% longer, if you give the Nestor the advantage of double nanos. Yes, obviously actual performance is affected by pilot skill and reaction time. But a given pilot will have a much different experience trying to maneuver a microwarping Nestor than they will with any other battleship, and another pilot trying to outmaneuver the Nestor will have a much larger margin of error in their own reaction time because of the Nestor's slow handling. |
Drummin Zerglin
The Drones Club Shoot 2 Thrill
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:00:00 -
[389] - Quote
The nestor can rep x2.5 a guardian, the same as 1 cap rep on a triage archon. The issue with this is the cap, but a lot of people seem to be dismissing the ship maintenance bay as plain storage for Cap boosters. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12755
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:12:00 -
[390] - Quote
Divi Filus wrote:
If your Megathron should align slower than a Tengu "on paper," but actually aligns faster "in practice," your paper is probably wrong. The tables aren't misleading. It's just math. If you're misled, don't blame the tables.
Its the same maths you just used. EFT and the like lies which is why I always say just use it for seeing if something will fit and a rough idea of what it will do. In game strange things happen. (seriously, go do the maths on a double nano mega vs a harpy, the maths say I shouldn't be aligning faster than them yet I do.)
Divi Filus wrote: In any case, we're not talking a margin of error of a fraction of a second, or even a few seconds. We're talking about a Nestor that takes 82.9% longer to align than a Rattlesnake if both are under MWDGÇöor "merely" 32.9% longer, if you give the Nestor the advantage of double nanos. Yes, obviously actual performance is affected by pilot skill and reaction time. But a given pilot will have a much different experience trying to maneuver a microwarping Nestor than they will with any other battleship, and another pilot trying to outmaneuver the Nestor will have a much larger margin of error in their own reaction time because of the Nestor's slow handling.
I need to get my hands on it with these new changes to see what happens before I can say if its any good. It looks capable. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
907
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 19:21:00 -
[391] - Quote
perhaps grant it a 10% role bonus to laser damage or maybe a reduction in fitting This way it doesnt end up being yet another laser boat, but gets to at least perform more of the mixed rolls plan The RR capability is very good, one of them is always on the Jita undock for suspectbaiters so that doesnt need much to be touched.
As a prober its equal to all the other ships, perhaps round that up to the nearest 10s place so its different?
As a drone boat, its an inferior armor rattlesnake, more survivable domix without range, better armageddon with odd tank and extra hislot DPS, inferior to Ishtar, better Navy Vexor So sort of middling not best not worst place. That is good.
As an explorations site runner - why? It has no discernable part to make it worthwhile over a t3 or covops. The sma helps some by acting as bulk storage room. Perhaps capitalize on that and make a wh drop that makes the nestor useful as you dont have to reship? But that would make it more known as the Nestor site than buffing the nestor |
Dehval
Risk Breakers Fidelas Constans
50
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 20:05:00 -
[392] - Quote
Drummin Zerglin wrote:The nestor can rep x2.5 a guardian, the same as 1 cap rep on a triage archon. The issue with this is the cap, but a lot of people seem to be dismissing the ship maintenance bay as plain storage for Cap boosters. You can't put anything except ships in a ship maintenance bay. It isn't a fleet hangar which allows the storage of mods. The only thing the Nestor can put in there is a single shuttle sized ship.
|
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
538
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 20:22:00 -
[393] - Quote
I really think CCP needs to figure out what they want this ship to be, specifically, and then make it that, rather than trying to make it do everything.
Bringing the mass down so it can fit into a C1 is useful-ish for WH gangs, since it would allow them to bring along a Nestor as logi even if they need to pass through a C1. However, this raises the stakes for C1 PvP, particularly POS defense, by quite a bit. While it was certainly possible to haul in the infrastructure and build a BS (or even dread/carrier) before, the ability to just take a nestor in means that C1 WHs are no longer as safe as they used to be for POSes that aren't "up to standards." A small fleet of Nestors can put out quite a bit more DPS than a similarly-sized fleet of anything else that can fit into a C1.
The Nestor also isn't any more useful for C1 PvE than existing ships, since those sites are dominated by frigs and cruisers that the Nestor will have trouble hitting.
Rather than reducing the mass to 20 (which, as already pointed out, causes problems for maneuverability under a MWD), would it be possible for the Nestor to have a role bonus of "can go through any wormhole"? Then you'd have to start worrying about mass limits on C1 holes, so taking a fleet into a C1 to explode a tower wouldn't be nearly as easy. Although, that might cause problems for the new frigate-only wormholes in Hyperion...then again, it might be exactly what people want for those frigate WHs. Frigate blob with nestor support.
Notwithstanding the WH role, the Nestor currently has quite a few roles. It's an armor Rattlesnake (sort of). It's a BS-sized logi with correspondingly larger rep potential. It's a BS-sized exploration boat that nobody wants or needs. It's an Orca that can't carry extra ships.
Personally, I'd like to see the BS-sized logi role moved to another, new class of ships, so they can focus on that role--and don't forget to have a shield one, too. Maybe give each race another BS which is basically an upsized version of the existing logi. Maybe T2, maybe not--advantage of T2 would be that you could just re-use existing models...Caldari could use the Rokh model, Gallente could use the Hyperion model, etc.
Then, make the Nestor into just the armor rattlesnake, with a damage bonus to guns. Maybe move the SMA onto the BS logi ships, or keep it on the Nestor, either way is fine. Give the Nestor a role bonus to range of data/relic analyzers, and the ability to loot data/relic analyzers from much farther away.
That way, the Nestor will fit better into the SoE ship line and actually be useful at data/relic sites. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 20:35:00 -
[394] - Quote
Dehval wrote:Drummin Zerglin wrote:The nestor can rep x2.5 a guardian, the same as 1 cap rep on a triage archon. The issue with this is the cap, but a lot of people seem to be dismissing the ship maintenance bay as plain storage for Cap boosters. You can't put anything except ships in a ship maintenance bay. It isn't a fleet hangar which allows the storage of mods. The only thing the Nestor can put in there is a single shuttle sized ship. Well clearly its there for the refit capability, right? CCP obviously intended you not to put anything in there. Would it be clearer if the size of the bay was 1m3? |
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 21:04:00 -
[395] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Dehval wrote:Drummin Zerglin wrote:The nestor can rep x2.5 a guardian, the same as 1 cap rep on a triage archon. The issue with this is the cap, but a lot of people seem to be dismissing the ship maintenance bay as plain storage for Cap boosters. You can't put anything except ships in a ship maintenance bay. It isn't a fleet hangar which allows the storage of mods. The only thing the Nestor can put in there is a single shuttle sized ship. Well clearly its there for the refit capability, right? CCP obviously intended you not to put anything in there. Would it be clearer if the size of the bay was 1m3? edit: you know, just so nobody goes around trying to stuff cap rechargers in the thing.
It's big enough to fit a shuttle, for what it's worth. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 21:17:00 -
[396] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Notwithstanding the WH role, the Nestor currently has quite a few roles. It's an armor Rattlesnake (sort of). It's a BS-sized logi with correspondingly larger rep potential. It's a BS-sized exploration boat that nobody wants or needs. It's an Orca that can't carry extra ships.
It would be good to decide what is the role of Nestor. SoE ships line are exploration ships. By lowering Nestor mass it could enter low class Whs. Lets make it valuable wormhole explorer.
Chris Winter wrote:Give the Nestor a role bonus to range of data/relic analyzers, and the ability to loot data/relic analyzers from much farther away. It could help with data/relics because BS class are slow and nonagile cows - not really great ships for exploration. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á
I am the night. I'm Bantam. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 21:34:00 -
[397] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Divi Filus wrote:
If your Megathron should align slower than a Tengu "on paper," but actually aligns faster "in practice," your paper is probably wrong. The tables aren't misleading. It's just math. If you're misled, don't blame the tables.
Its the same maths you just used. EFT and the like lies which is why I always say just use it for seeing if something will fit and a rough idea of what it will do. In game strange things happen. (seriously, go do the maths on a double nano mega vs a harpy, the maths say I shouldn't be aligning faster than them yet I do.)
Carefull about the pitfall of anecdotal evidence (and simulations), with a prop mod on a harpy we are talking about just a 2s difference with perfect skills, who is more likely to have maneuvering skills high, the bs or the frig pilot, is up for discussion, possibly reducing the margin further...
However it does not need a math degree to expect that if a prop mod more than triples the ships mass its likely to have hilarious consequences. :)
|
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 21:46:00 -
[398] - Quote
So...the new changes are aimed at increasing its possible use in wormholes. Not sure who in their right minds would use this anywere else. Anyone saying it would be great for small gang roams should remember this is INTY Online, so I'm sure this ship would be surrounded by a nice swarm from the other side of Eve by the time it warps from one side of a system to another.
|
Drummin Zerglin
The Drones Club Shoot 2 Thrill
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 22:16:00 -
[399] - Quote
Dehval wrote:Drummin Zerglin wrote:The nestor can rep x2.5 a guardian, the same as 1 cap rep on a triage archon. The issue with this is the cap, but a lot of people seem to be dismissing the ship maintenance bay as plain storage for Cap boosters. You can't put anything except ships in a ship maintenance bay. It isn't a fleet hangar which allows the storage of mods. The only thing the Nestor can put in there is a single shuttle sized ship.
Oops, for a second there I thought the Nestor was going to be semi OP. Buff Nestor. |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 01:27:00 -
[400] - Quote
Conjaq wrote:Saisin wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote: I'm not going to say this is a bad change, because I really can't evaluate it, but I think everything that's being done with the Nestor makes it clear that nobody has any idea what to do with it. You're just sort of throwing random bonuses at it that don't really work together in any coherent way. .
Funny how some players seem to display a total lack of imagination and are asking for any ship to fit into their mental patterns, totally ignoring that other players may find a use for it... It is a good thing for the game to create ships that do not fit into any current patterns, let the community find out a way to use them. the current approach on the Nestor is a great one... Keep it up CCP. Edit: I did not notice before it was posted by a goon... How am I not surprised?! I'd like to hear what you think the nestor can be used for... I am not saying I know yet, but as soon as I get the possibility to get a Nestor, once the price has gone down, I will buy one to find some use for it, even if the min maxers out there will just ignore it... I do not care much about the min-maxers, and I appreciate the fact that some content can't be put in a neat little box...
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2469
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 05:49:00 -
[401] - Quote
It still needs a cloak bonus of some kind. Even if you have to take some other kind of bonus away or nerf it somehow.
I didn't say access to covops cloaks. Just a useful, powerful cloak bonus of some kind.
It has always needed a cloak bonus of some kind. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 07:27:00 -
[402] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:It still needs a cloak bonus of some kind. Even if you have to take some other kind of bonus away or nerf it somehow.
I didn't say access to covops cloaks. Just a useful, powerful cloak bonus of some kind.
It has always needed a cloak bonus of some kind.
maybe a reduction in scan res penalty it would e something unique to try out |
Adwokat Diabla
Hel No plz
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 08:31:00 -
[403] - Quote
Even if the price was 500mil, I would still buy a bunch of domis instead of a nestor. This ship just flat out sucks in its bonuses, which have literally 0 cohesion with each other. Laser range, but no laser cap/tracking/dps? Combined with drones, which also don't get any bonuses to tracking/optimal/falloff? With some rr in it just cuz why the **** not? So what we have is a rring, drone, laser boat that can't really do any of these roles very good. Incidentally the cap on it makes rring very hard. It just does not make sense why the players would legit want to fly this ship. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
468
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 08:49:00 -
[404] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote:Even if the price was 500mil, I would still buy a bunch of domis instead of a nestor. This ship just flat out sucks in its bonuses, which have literally 0 cohesion with each other. Laser range, but no laser cap/tracking/dps? Combined with drones, which also don't get any bonuses to tracking/optimal/falloff? With some rr in it just cuz why the **** not? So what we have is a rring, drone, laser boat that can't really do any of these roles very good. Incidentally the cap on it makes rring very hard. It just does not make sense why the players would legit want to fly this ship.
This is why I keep saying they should drop the RR ability, turn this thing into a BLOPs and make a BC to cover the RR ability which could be fully covert due to the fact it wouldn't have any more offensive capabilty than the Stratios.
Then the SoE ship line would actually make sense! Frigate - Covert Combat Scout Cruiser - Covert Combat Cruiser BC - Covert Combat Support (RR/Links) BS - BLOPs support **with SMA** (BLOPs cloaking only, not fully covert) |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 09:09:00 -
[405] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Adwokat Diabla wrote:Even if the price was 500mil, I would still buy a bunch of domis instead of a nestor. This ship just flat out sucks in its bonuses, which have literally 0 cohesion with each other. Laser range, but no laser cap/tracking/dps? Combined with drones, which also don't get any bonuses to tracking/optimal/falloff? With some rr in it just cuz why the **** not? So what we have is a rring, drone, laser boat that can't really do any of these roles very good. Incidentally the cap on it makes rring very hard. It just does not make sense why the players would legit want to fly this ship. This is why I keep saying they should drop the RR ability, turn this thing into a BLOPs and make a BC to cover the RR ability which could be fully covert due to the fact it wouldn't have any more offensive capabilty than the Stratios. Then the SoE ship line would actually make sense! Frigate - Covert Combat Scout Cruiser - Covert Combat Cruiser BC - Covert Combat Support (RR/Links) BS - BLOPs support **with SMA** (BLOPs cloaking only, not fully covert)
That would either make for the hardest T1 ship to train into or give you the ability to use jump drives w/o jump skills lets ignore the lore aspects with some one operating a jump drive with no knowledge of how they work and only a small understanding of basic navigation and move onto the game-play side of either jump drives usable with no skill or a function of a ship locked untill a skill is reached |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
468
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 09:50:00 -
[406] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Adwokat Diabla wrote:Even if the price was 500mil, I would still buy a bunch of domis instead of a nestor. This ship just flat out sucks in its bonuses, which have literally 0 cohesion with each other. Laser range, but no laser cap/tracking/dps? Combined with drones, which also don't get any bonuses to tracking/optimal/falloff? With some rr in it just cuz why the **** not? So what we have is a rring, drone, laser boat that can't really do any of these roles very good. Incidentally the cap on it makes rring very hard. It just does not make sense why the players would legit want to fly this ship. This is why I keep saying they should drop the RR ability, turn this thing into a BLOPs and make a BC to cover the RR ability which could be fully covert due to the fact it wouldn't have any more offensive capabilty than the Stratios. Then the SoE ship line would actually make sense! Frigate - Covert Combat Scout Cruiser - Covert Combat Cruiser BC - Covert Combat Support (RR/Links) BS - BLOPs support **with SMA** (BLOPs cloaking only, not fully covert) That would either make for the hardest T1 ship to train into or give you the ability to use jump drives w/o jump skills lets ignore the lore aspects with some one operating a jump drive with no knowledge of how they work and only a small understanding of basic navigation and move onto the game-play side of either jump drives usable with no skill or a function of a ship locked untill a skill is reached
I'm pretty sure you can't use a module without the relevent skills to use it. Good example is I can fit a T2 gang link to a BC but can't use it due to skills even though I have perfect BC skills. So this point is irrelevant. Also, the use of BLOPs bridging ability isn't something you would have to use. The ship would still be a good BS. But I get where you're coming from about T1 and skill training time. But I don't see that as a major issue |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 10:50:00 -
[407] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Adwokat Diabla wrote:Even if the price was 500mil, I would still buy a bunch of domis instead of a nestor. This ship just flat out sucks in its bonuses, which have literally 0 cohesion with each other. Laser range, but no laser cap/tracking/dps? Combined with drones, which also don't get any bonuses to tracking/optimal/falloff? With some rr in it just cuz why the **** not? So what we have is a rring, drone, laser boat that can't really do any of these roles very good. Incidentally the cap on it makes rring very hard. It just does not make sense why the players would legit want to fly this ship. This is why I keep saying they should drop the RR ability, turn this thing into a BLOPs and make a BC to cover the RR ability which could be fully covert due to the fact it wouldn't have any more offensive capabilty than the Stratios. Then the SoE ship line would actually make sense! Frigate - Covert Combat Scout Cruiser - Covert Combat Cruiser BC - Covert Combat Support (RR/Links) BS - BLOPs support **with SMA** (BLOPs cloaking only, not fully covert) That would either make for the hardest T1 ship to train into or give you the ability to use jump drives w/o jump skills lets ignore the lore aspects with some one operating a jump drive with no knowledge of how they work and only a small understanding of basic navigation and move onto the game-play side of either jump drives usable with no skill or a function of a ship locked untill a skill is reached I'm pretty sure you can't use a module without the relevent skills to use it. Good example is I can fit a T2 gang link to a BC but can't use it due to skills even though I have perfect BC skills. So this point is irrelevant. Also, the use of BLOPs bridging ability isn't something you would have to use. The ship would still be a good BS. But I get where you're coming from about T1 and skill training time. But I don't see that as a major issue you understand that the jump drive is not a module right its part of a BLOPs like its warp drive and it is this jump drive i'm referring to not the bridge |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1564
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 11:01:00 -
[408] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
May I ask what in hell the nestor is made off? Lol at a battleship that is closer to a cruiser mass level.
I think you guys are pushign too much into unreasonable values and lots and lots of bonuses to try to compensate for a failed initial concept of a ship. When you need to go to extreme levels as that mass level, shows something deeper is not satisfactory.
Nestors will NOT be a success as repair ships as long as logistics are as overpowered as they are (and I include t1 and t2 logistics on that) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
469
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 11:35:00 -
[409] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Adwokat Diabla wrote:Even if the price was 500mil, I would still buy a bunch of domis instead of a nestor. This ship just flat out sucks in its bonuses, which have literally 0 cohesion with each other. Laser range, but no laser cap/tracking/dps? Combined with drones, which also don't get any bonuses to tracking/optimal/falloff? With some rr in it just cuz why the **** not? So what we have is a rring, drone, laser boat that can't really do any of these roles very good. Incidentally the cap on it makes rring very hard. It just does not make sense why the players would legit want to fly this ship. This is why I keep saying they should drop the RR ability, turn this thing into a BLOPs and make a BC to cover the RR ability which could be fully covert due to the fact it wouldn't have any more offensive capabilty than the Stratios. Then the SoE ship line would actually make sense! Frigate - Covert Combat Scout Cruiser - Covert Combat Cruiser BC - Covert Combat Support (RR/Links) BS - BLOPs support **with SMA** (BLOPs cloaking only, not fully covert) That would either make for the hardest T1 ship to train into or give you the ability to use jump drives w/o jump skills lets ignore the lore aspects with some one operating a jump drive with no knowledge of how they work and only a small understanding of basic navigation and move onto the game-play side of either jump drives usable with no skill or a function of a ship locked untill a skill is reached I'm pretty sure you can't use a module without the relevent skills to use it. Good example is I can fit a T2 gang link to a BC but can't use it due to skills even though I have perfect BC skills. So this point is irrelevant. Also, the use of BLOPs bridging ability isn't something you would have to use. The ship would still be a good BS. But I get where you're coming from about T1 and skill training time. But I don't see that as a major issue you understand that the jump drive is not a module right its part of a BLOPs like its warp drive and it is this jump drive i'm referring to not the bridge
Thought you were only talking about bridging but putting the secondary skill of Jump Drive Operation 1 in as a pre-requisite wouldn't bother me for a T1 ship with a covert jump drive.
The BC hull will be the ship that people could turn to before the Nestor. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
493
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 13:43:00 -
[410] - Quote
BFE wrote:TheMercenaryKing wrote:So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage. Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a BS, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus.
Both of you are wrong.
A) If you want to clear a higher-end site, you use a tengu or a marauder. Cheaper/faster then a nestor. Then warp in the hack ship.
B) If you want to ninja the talocan in a C5, you use a nighthawk with MJD, relic hacker, and a cap booster - fully passive fit. Warp in, hack talocan, loot, inject 400cap, micro-jump away, warp off. Total cost - 300mil.
C) Ninjaing cans in C5-C6 is not possible with a solo nestor, too much dps on the field. Super tengus, yes, nestor, no. |
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
493
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 14:34:00 -
[411] - Quote
This is how nestor can be used in wormhole space after patch.
Role: day-tripping into WH space, ninja-looting sleeper sites.
How:
Put zephyr into ship bay.
Find a chain of c5-c4 wormholes.
Use the probing bonus on the nestor to probe down the signatures.
Warp to each one @100, check if there is a talocan - microjump away to warp off if tackled.
If there is a talocan, use zephyr to bookmark spot next to talocans (leave nestor in space for a minute)
Warp in with a nestor on top of the talocan, hack it while tanking (big buffer (3-4 plates), cap injectors, resists). You should hack talocan in a minute tops, nestor has a bonus to it. Big buffer will tank for long enough, c4-c5 sleepers only do 500dps on first wave. Loot talocan, use cap injector, microjump out, warp out.
Repair in safe spot, rinse, repeat, move on to new wormhole.
I do exactly this only i use a passive nighthawk with MDJ, cap injector, and relic analyzer. I admit I probably would switch to nestor just because of hack bonus - last night for example i pulled 6 server banks with a nighthawk, but hacking in a non-bonused ship sucks, even in max-skilled toon. I also have alts for probing, bookmarking, etc., and I do server banks only if there is a big concentration of them in my chain, normally i do c6 sites., but for a day-tripping character who does NOT have alts, POS, etc., totally viable. 4 talocans will give about 200-300mil in loot. 4 Server banks can be found in an hour. in a chain. C4 sites nobody ever does as well, and they have talocans as well.
I suppose 200-300 mil per hour is decent earnings, ship will pay for itself in 3-4 hours of work.
The only risk is leaving the ship in mid-space to use the zephyr to bookmark the talocan. In c5 server banks you dont really have to, you can bookmark a piece of wreckage 4km away, but in other sites you have to slowboat to it under webs, so bookmarking is a must.
You can also put other nestor bonuses to work. For additional income, you can clear some sleepers while you hack. laser range to guns means you can use Large Pulses (dual heavy) with conflag to hit those pesky cruisers orbiting at 30. So smartbomb frigates away with 1 bomb, then pull out drones to assist with clearing last cruisers.
Do this, and its extra 20-30mil income per site.
Its very interesting, but the range of dual heavy pulse guns with conflag is almost IDEAL for clearing cruisers at 30. And the DPS is better then a tengu.
I think this is what nestor is supposed to do in PvE. But the twist here is that its supposed to do this with a passive buffer tank. Triple-plated and triple-trimarked, it has a very big buffer. certainly big enough to last a few min in a site and shoot the cruisers. 250k EHP, 50k raw armor @ 75% resists. Thats 4-5 minutes of life in a c5 site easy, if youre not clearing sleepers.
The only trick is capacitor management and power grid; so 4 medium cap injectors loaded with 200s will keep you cap-stable through the neuts while you fight or hack, and loaded with 800s will inject enough juice to let you microjump out.
You are not using the RR bonus im afraid, but, it is what it is.
Definitely viable. |
BFE
Thee Almitee Ones
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 15:46:00 -
[412] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:.....Notwithstanding the WH role, the Nestor currently has quite a few roles. It's an armor Rattlesnake (sort of). It's a BS-sized logi with correspondingly larger rep potential. It's a BS-sized exploration boat that nobody wants or needs. It's an Orca that can't carry extra ships.
Personally, I'd like to see the BS-sized logi role moved to another, new class of ships, so they can focus on that role--and don't forget to have a shield one, too. Maybe give each race another BS which is basically an upsized version of the existing logi. Maybe T2, maybe not--advantage of T2 would be that you could just re-use existing models...Caldari could use the Rokh model, Gallente could use the Hyperion model, etc.
Then, make the Nestor into just the armor rattlesnake, with a damage bonus to guns. Maybe move the SMA onto the BS logi ships, or keep it on the Nestor, either way is fine. Give the Nestor a role bonus to range of data/relic analyzers, and the ability to loot data/relic analyzers from much farther away.
That way, the Nestor will fit better into the SoE ship line and actually be useful at data/relic sites.
+1 for each paragraph.
I REALLY like the idea of T2 BS logi's..... but even more so the idea of the Nestor getting +range to hacking/looting sites. It should get more of a bonus to strength too though. It IS a battleship afterall, and should be stronger than it's Stratios cousin.... |
XvXTeacherVxV
Dayman Industries
105
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:32:00 -
[413] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:(leave nestor in space for a minute)
What wormhole do you live in? I'd like to come visit. Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
494
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:49:00 -
[414] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:(leave nestor in space for a minute) What wormhole do you live in? I'd like to come visit.
Come, visit. J142128.
Bring friends. Lots of them. Dont forget to update your clone, our 'return to k-space service' is not user-friendly.
On your way here scan out wormholes and see that they are almost all empty. So yes, leaving the nestor in space for a minute is not exactly safe, but safer then you might think. Much safer then you might think. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 00:40:00 -
[415] - Quote
Roughly how fast will a Nestor be with a MWD now that its already-low mass was gutted? |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
81
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 06:25:00 -
[416] - Quote
If Nestor could launch 5 geckos it would be a lot more interesting without the price change. Would not be surprised to see it used more even with current prices. Is that my two cents or yours? |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 07:00:00 -
[417] - Quote
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:If Nestor could launch 5 geckos it would be a lot more interesting without the price change. Would not be surprised to see it used more even with current prices.
So your saying 2x drone DPS compared to the other subcapital ships would make it usefull, who would have thought...
Geckos already do around 2x the dps compared to heavy or sentry drones, and is balanced by the fact that they take 2x the m3 and mb. Also balancing a ship around limited edition drones is not realy a good idea |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
644
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 10:43:00 -
[418] - Quote
perhaps to set the nestor out as unique ship it should make use of it's lightweight and novel construction techniques and use an advanced ultr-low reflective nano surface to give a bonus to the effect of the target spectrum breaker. Making it harder to target with a seemingly little used mod could be interesting |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
81
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 12:58:00 -
[419] - Quote
The ship might have gone a different route if it had sensor damps and neuts. Branch out of SoE theme and go EWar. Drone logistics bonus might have been a neat twist. Add some better cap regen also. More mass for plate friendly. Targeting ghost site theme instead of WH would be a lot easier for a BS. Range bonus for hacking would be necessary though... Looting container might be tough though.... Maybe site should have jettison 1 can with a decent timer so you can tractor beam it... Is that my two cents or yours? |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
176
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 13:04:00 -
[420] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:perhaps to set the nestor out as unique ship it should make use of it's lightweight and novel construction techniques and use an advanced ultr-low reflective nano surface to give a bonus to the effect of the target spectrum breaker. Making it harder to target with a seemingly little used mod could be interesting Well, that's definitely thinking outside the box... Might be interesting exploring that route.
|
|
BFE
Thee Almitee Ones
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 13:23:00 -
[421] - Quote
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:The ship might have gone a different route if it had sensor damps and neuts. Branch out of SoE theme and go EWar. Drone logistics bonus might have been a neat twist. Add some better cap regen also. More mass for plate friendly. Targeting ghost site theme instead of WH would be a lot easier for a BS. Range bonus for hacking would be necessary though... Looting container might be tough though.... Maybe site should have jettison 1 can with a decent timer so you can tractor beam it...
Why would SOE goes out of their own them when creating a ship? Do Amarr go outside of Amarrian theme and use projectile weapons and hybrids? No, they stick to primarily lasers, and secondary missiles..... Do Caldari go outside of their theme and use armor tanks? No, they primarily stick to shield tanking.....
If you want a ship outside of SOE theme.... to go to the market... there are many non-SOE ships, with non-SOE themes.....
Sisters Of Eve are primarily for exploration/etc. Focus the Nestor's buffs for that with its battleship tanking/weapons. |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
81
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 14:42:00 -
[422] - Quote
BFE wrote:w3ak3stl1nk wrote:The ship might have gone a different route if it had sensor damps and neuts. Branch out of SoE theme and go EWar. Drone logistics bonus might have been a neat twist. Add some better cap regen also. More mass for plate friendly. Targeting ghost site theme instead of WH would be a lot easier for a BS. Range bonus for hacking would be necessary though... Looting container might be tough though.... Maybe site should have jettison 1 can with a decent timer so you can tractor beam it... Why would SOE goes out of their own them when creating a ship? Do Amarr go outside of Amarrian theme and use projectile weapons and hybrids? No, they stick to primarily lasers, and secondary missiles..... Do Caldari go outside of their theme and use armor tanks? No, they primarily stick to shield tanking..... If you want a ship outside of SOE theme.... to go to the market... there are many non-SOE ships, with non-SOE themes..... Sisters Of Eve are primarily for exploration/etc. Focus the Nestor's buffs for that with its battleship tanking/weapons. You are probably right, but making the ship better for wormholes may not be the fix it needs. Just thinking drone repair bonus might be neat and different compared to normal RR. The tank style of astero and stratios is good. Making it work for data/relic/ghost might help. Is that my two cents or yours? |
ElectronHerd Askulf
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 16:45:00 -
[423] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:... has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes.
Is this a side-effect, or does it relate to the other changes being made in wormholes?
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 19:14:00 -
[424] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:This is how nestor can be used in wormhole space after patch.
Role: day-tripping into WH space, ninja-looting sleeper sites.
How:
Put zephyr into ship bay.
Find a chain of c5-c4 wormholes.
Use the probing bonus on the nestor to probe down the signatures.
Warp to each one @100, check if there is a talocan - microjump away to warp off if tackled.
If there is a talocan, use zephyr to bookmark spot next to talocans (leave nestor in space for a minute)
Warp in with a nestor on top of the talocan, hack it while tanking (big buffer (3-4 plates), cap injectors, resists). You should hack talocan in a minute tops, nestor has a bonus to it. Big buffer will tank for long enough, c4-c5 sleepers only do 500dps on first wave. Loot talocan, use cap injector, microjump out, warp out.
Repair in safe spot, rinse, repeat, move on to new wormhole.
I do exactly this only i use a passive nighthawk with MDJ, cap injector, and relic analyzer. I admit I probably would switch to nestor just because of hack bonus - last night for example i pulled 6 server banks with a nighthawk, but hacking in a non-bonused ship sucks, even in max-skilled toon. I also have alts for probing, bookmarking, etc., and I do server banks only if there is a big concentration of them in my chain, normally i do c6 sites., but for a day-tripping character who does NOT have alts, POS, etc., totally viable. 4 talocans will give about 200-300mil in loot. 4 Server banks can be found in an hour. in a chain. C4 sites nobody ever does as well, and they have talocans as well.
I suppose 200-300 mil per hour is decent earnings, ship will pay for itself in 3-4 hours of work. [...]
My only issue with your theme here is the limited cargo capacity of the ship means you can only clear out a few Talocans before its full. Granted, thats full of nice loot, but full nonetheless. Zephyr is an excellent solution for scouting sleeper sites assuming it's bonuses still work. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys Mordus Angels
2060
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 19:19:00 -
[425] - Quote
With the new reduction in mass, reduction in cost, and sma it may see some practical use in wormholes. The significantly reduced mass and other abillities at least give it a well defined role, even if that role is low-class-wormhole boat of choice, which is still the tiniest of niches. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 23:03:00 -
[426] - Quote
I've been following this debate a while now, not sure if I should even bring anything up as I don't own, and am very unlikely to ever own, a Nestor, as it just doesn't suit my conservative, carebearish style of play and PVP.
I do appreciate that this ship can now effectively traverse space and (especially in a spider tanking fleet of similar hulls) venture into the once defenders-only battleship using crowd of C1 wormholes. Sure, you have to offline all your plates to enter, but still you CAN enter and, more importantly, leave when the deed is done, without the need to self destruct like every other battleship hull in the game has to from a C1 system. Kudos to actually having a potential design goal for this ship.
Here's the only downside... it's a 1.6 billion isk hull that only really shines when paired with at least another 1.6 billion ISK hull. By that point thats a 20 man fleet of anything else we'd be using to bash a set of POSes in a C1, with some T2 logi support thrown in for good measure. The same designs that would hold a small group of anything else at bay will hold a small group of Nestors off as well.
What I'm referring to here, ladies and gents, is that a Dickstar design POS will be even more effective against a fleet of remote repping battleships than it will be against a fleet of what folks used before this change hits. Usually its about having enough meatsuits to sit in capsules to fly stuff, not about how few hulls someone can bring in (and out) of an engagement in EVE. The odds almost always favor the group with the higher numbers.
Higher numbers and cheaper hulls means more flexibility and adaptability. Yes, the Nestor takes the place of an Orca for these doctrines invading C2-4 wormholes now, but only to a small degree as a Nestor can't haul in the POS, or the siege support tower modules, or the extra ammo or POS fuel or whatever else you may desire for a protracted engagement, meaninng at least a DST is still required for this form of warfare.
I believe some of the prominent nullsec groups have already stated that any doctrine is going to specifically avoid large fleets of ships over 250m in value. This means HACs are about the higher end of things, with some T2 logi and CS support. Pirate BS hulls are too pricey, navy hulls are the same, even navy BCs and pirate cruisers end up being too expensive in most cases. So at least the right group is being targeted for these, in WHs, but in almost every case you would want a Nestor, some T2 logi or an Archon would do the job more effectively, with less risk, and greater chance of all fleet members surviving.
Now, I could be wrong. The Nestor might be that hero refitting ship able to save that dread that just got pointed from a certain (as well as protracted and lingering) death. But 3 T3s might be a better investment, for around the same pricetag. But hey, I'm always around the risk vs. reward. If I can make a 5m (fit included) Epithal or Kryos do the same task as a 250m Occator, you better believe I'm leaving the T2 at home and running gate camps in my T1. (Besides, it's so fun watching guys reshipping trying to find something that can take it out before I warp or stop it.) The same stuff that would stop it would stop any DST cold. The same camps that would let me sneak past unscathed would let both ships through equally. Its about what risk is worthy of the reward, and how crucial is that cargo I'm hauling.
In the case of the Nestor, how much do I need a BS that can enter and leave a C1? How many BS hulls can I drop in that same C1 and not care if they live or die, and get much greater effect from? Would 3x RR Domis do the job better, for a small fraction of the price? They most surely would. Its even easy to get friends to come and join me in a romp if I'm handing them all a ship to use (and lose) while we're shooting stuff. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11317
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 05:21:00 -
[427] - Quote
Has anyone actually tested the handling characteristics of this ship on sisi? Because holy **** does it accelerate slowly with 100MN prop mods. It's embarrassing. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
114
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 08:27:00 -
[428] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.
We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.
The new changes are:
Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000) Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32) Velocity: 65 (-27) Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)
I can appreciate the idea that someone actually considered hisec when balancing something, but this really isn't a positive change. This ship lacks a well defined niche, and it's viability in WH space is severely limited by cost/inability to cloak/too large to begin with. The logistics feature seems more like a shot in the dark to create some sort of all purpose craft, not really working very well, and where's our shield counterpart? |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
81
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 16:43:00 -
[429] - Quote
I would have like cap regen bonus or logistics drone bonus or wormhole mass role bonus or hacking range bonus. Remove laser bonus. Covert ops cloak should go to black ops if any BS gets it. Is that my two cents or yours? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
645
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 16:48:00 -
[430] - Quote
No BS should be cov-ops in my opinion, they're just too damn big to hide. Giving it the target spectrum breaker with associated bonus would make for some interesting tactical choices on an attackers part though. Ignore the BS and go after the unhindered hi-repped associated stratios/asteros trying to eat your ship or try to target the BS and very possibly waste time if you don't get a lock...whilst the associated stratios and asteros (asterii?) are trying to eat you. |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 19:03:00 -
[431] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:No BS should be cov-ops in my opinion, they're just too damn big to hide. Giving it the target spectrum breaker with associated bonus would make for some interesting tactical choices on an attackers part though. Ignore the BS and go after the unhindered hi-repped associated stratios/asteros trying to eat your ship or try to target the BS and very possibly waste time if you don't get a lock...whilst the associated stratios and asteros (asterii?) are trying to eat you.
the PvE aspect o it would work too run a sleeper site and try to hack faster then the kill you however the bonus would have to make it so you don't jam yourself for that to work |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
116
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 20:00:00 -
[432] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:No BS should be cov-ops in my opinion, they're just too damn big to hide. Giving it the target spectrum breaker with associated bonus would make for some interesting tactical choices on an attackers part though. Ignore the BS and go after the unhindered hi-repped associated stratios/asteros trying to eat your ship or try to target the BS and very possibly waste time if you don't get a lock...whilst the associated stratios and asteros (asterii?) are trying to eat you. the PvE aspect o it would work too run a sleeper site and try to hack faster then the kill you however the bonus would have to make it so you don't jam yourself for that to work
the sleepers would just wipe the floor with your drones before retargeting you. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 22:40:00 -
[433] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:No BS should be cov-ops in my opinion, they're just too damn big to hide. Giving it the target spectrum breaker with associated bonus would make for some interesting tactical choices on an attackers part though. Ignore the BS and go after the unhindered hi-repped associated stratios/asteros trying to eat your ship or try to target the BS and very possibly waste time if you don't get a lock...whilst the associated stratios and asteros (asterii?) are trying to eat you. the PvE aspect o it would work too run a sleeper site and try to hack faster then the kill you however the bonus would have to make it so you don't jam yourself for that to work the sleepers would just wipe the floor with your drones before retargeting you.
i didn't know i had drones out and the nestor can hack a can in a c3 with 75% of its armor left as it currently is |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
288
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 05:16:00 -
[434] - Quote
James Baboli wrote: And every domi is now both a spider domi and a blaster domi until one or the other is needed on every ship, and everyone has fully committed.
You forgot about the neut domi... Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
DaJokr
Hard Knocks Inc.
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 06:29:00 -
[435] - Quote
I don't suppose whoever implemented these changes logged on and flew it for more than 30 seconds?
The ship is not usable after the patch. These mass and velocity changes do not address any real issues that were brought up with this ship. 100mn afterburners take twice as long to get up to speed on top of an overall velocity nerf (About 7% slower overall). You can't keep up with smaller logi ships, you can't escape, you can't sig tank a dread, you can't orbit a wormhole.
Want to fix this ship for wormholes since that's what you appeared to be aiming for? Revert mass/velocity changes, -1 High slot, +1 Low slot, +10-20 scan res, give cap the same range as armor. Now you're risking as much as taking a bhaalgorn on field while presenting an equal threat to one.
Seriously has anyone even hacked a can with a Nestor yet? Even 1 can? You guys probably keep logs of that. It's not a cloaky ship, you've made it pretty clear you don't want covops battleships, either make the current bonuses good enough that someone would risk a Nestor to take advantage of them or change them to something else, it's not a covops so why should it follow the same role bonuses as the frigate/cruiser which are?
It would certainly be nice if you would address this 100mn issue before the patch or push it to the next one. It would show people that you're not making rushed, untested, arbitrary changes and breaking ships with 6 days until a patch because content.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_NG4QnotE&feature=youtu.be |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11158
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 13:37:00 -
[436] - Quote
Whoops, I thought I had posted here yesterday but it looks like the forum ate my post and only registered that I had updated the OP.
In general we think that a battleship that is more agile than average with the prop mod off and less agile than average with the prop mod on is a perfectly fine point of distinction, but the version of the Nestor on SISI was indeed taking that a little too far.
So we're pulling back the inertia increase (to 0.35) and adding 5m/s back to the base speed. This version should be on the next build of SISI, and will likely reach TQ. Of course we will be continuing to observe and adjust as always.
Thanks for the continued feedback everyone. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Conjaq
Mid-Grade Mercenaries Courageous Cowards
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 13:53:00 -
[437] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Whoops, I thought I had posted here yesterday but it looks like the forum ate my post and only registered that I had updated the OP.
In general we think that a battleship that is more agile than average with the prop mod off and less agile than average with the prop mod on is a perfectly fine point of distinction, but the version of the Nestor on SISI was indeed taking that a little too far.
So we're pulling back the inertia increase (to 0.35) and adding 5m/s back to the base speed. This version should be on the next build of SISI, and will likely reach TQ. Of course we will be continuing to observe and adjust as always.
Thanks for the continued feedback everyone.
I'll be honest and say, i'm not sure how much of a change that inertia increase will do. but if it's even remotely close to the video, posted it's still going to be a very very slow ship.
Why not "just" reimagine it? - People obviously don't like it. There has been so many examples of why.
The concept of a "semi" logi Battleship, is so cool - but it just doesn't deliver. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
778
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 14:42:00 -
[438] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: In general we think that a battleship that is more agile than average with the prop mod off and less agile than average with the prop mod on is a perfectly fine point of distinction
just why, this ship is a joke. give up. |
Wrent Simulus
Galactic State
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:20:00 -
[439] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Whoops, I thought I had posted here yesterday but it looks like the forum ate my post and only registered that I had updated the OP.
In general we think that a battleship that is more agile than average with the prop mod off and less agile than average with the prop mod on is a perfectly fine point of distinction, but the version of the Nestor on SISI was indeed taking that a little too far.
So we're pulling back the inertia increase (to 0.35) and adding 5m/s back to the base speed. This version should be on the next build of SISI, and will likely reach TQ. Of course we will be continuing to observe and adjust as always.
Thanks for the continued feedback everyone.
Is there any chance that we can get the "developer's vision" on what you guys want this vessel to be? It seems like there's a fundamental disconnect as to what this ship is intended to be. The player base has offered a variety of suggestions (at least taking the microcosm of this thread) yet the developers went an entirely different direction. While I understand that the players will always find unique or unexpected ways to use a ship, the direction that the ship is currently going seems to be not be in the direction of making it either useful or desired.
This may help us hone the direction of our suggestions and provide clearer feedback to you.
-Regards |
Vivianne Athonille
Athonille Logistics and Provisions
22
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:27:00 -
[440] - Quote
If you are really trying to make this a Jack Of All Trades support ship, you may need to consider allowing an unbonused Warfare Link and Command Processors. |
|
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
44
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:37:00 -
[441] - Quote
Wrent Simulus wrote: Is there any chance that we can get the "developer's vision" on what you guys want this vessel to be? It seems like there's a fundamental disconnect as to what this ship is intended to be. The player base has offered a variety of suggestions (at least taking the microcosm of this thread) yet the developers went an entirely different direction. While I understand that the players will always find unique or unexpected ways to use a ship, the direction that the ship is currently going seems to be not be in the direction of making it either useful or desired.
This may help us hone the direction of our suggestions and provide clearer feedback to you.
-Regards
I think Wrent hit the nail on the head here.
The majority of us would like to give relevant feedback on the Nestor, and your changes, but are still unsure where you're going with it. With the current changes it's obvious that you want the Nestor to be a wormhole ship, but it's still unclear what role it's meant to fill otherwise.
Making it easier to move the Nestor is great, but people still aren't going to buy/support it unless you give us a solid reason to put it there.
|
Wrent Simulus
Galactic State
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:02:00 -
[442] - Quote
Vivianne Athonille wrote:If you are really trying to make this a Jack Of All Trades support ship, you may need to consider allowing an unbonused Warfare Link and Command Processors.
I'd agree with this, drop the laser bonuses, allow it to fit Command processors and alter the rep bonuses to be both shield and armor, and boost the repair range bonus to 350-500% range.
It still won't step on dedicated logi's toes (way too expensive to be used on a large scale, much shorter range on reps, cap issues, etc) but it will clear up what its intent is, which in this iteration would be a mid-level support ship capable of bringing value to multiple venues (wormhole day-tripping, mission groups, lowsec roaming, scout/vg incursions, etc) without being overwhelmingly good.
*edit*
This of course hinges on this fitting in with the developers vision of the vessel.
*edit 2*
it's -> its |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
712
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:33:00 -
[443] - Quote
The Nestor is in a bad time for Battleships in EVE, making it hard to know if the Nestor is the problem or if it's just the fact that it's a battleship and nobody wants to use it for that reason and that reason alone. |
Ixianna Svartalfar
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:54:00 -
[444] - Quote
The Astero is a great addition to the newer players' arsenals for exploration with near Cov-ops competency. With the added kicker of it can tank and fight, it has become a common stepping stone between Cov-ops and Recons for PVP use. As a scout it's agile as a frigate, yet still vicious enough to fight cruisers.
The Stratios was an entirely new idea for a cruiser from a "pirate" faction, and it was wildly successful. It is great stepping stone between Recons and T3s without really eclipsing either one enough to displace them. Stratios are exploding in all areas of space, only to be replaced to explode anew. That is the hallmark of a good ship.
The significant mass changes may make the Nestor a new(er) player Guardian/Oneiros replacement ship, and with a 2.5x force multiplier for that role. Just because it costs a lot doesn't mean folks won't fly it anyhow. Just because it's roles are a little odd doesn't mean we wont find a use for it.
Someone already posted an idea of daytripping in C5s to loot the goods from a few WH relic sites. That's the kind of innovative use I can get behind, and it doesn't have the potential for skill loss like a T3 would. Lets face it, a brick tanked T3 for exploration handles like a pig, so why not get a cow go with it, and just have fun?
~
One minor change I would like to see is an agility and speed increase over the previous stated values. It's true, using the MWD all day has no real sig bloom issues against the ship because it's already huge, but the cap needs for that are countered by the cap need for it's remote repairer systems. How about tuning it more for AB use instead? As for alignment times, isn't that what webbers are for? |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3770
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 22:21:00 -
[445] - Quote
Battleships need work, period. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
chris Olgidar
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Get Off My Lawn
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 08:26:00 -
[446] - Quote
They really do |
DaJokr
Hard Knocks Inc.
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:01:00 -
[447] - Quote
I feel like whoever implemented these changes has never been in a C5/C6 armor fight before.
Nestor is useless for wormhole fights with these changes, if you can't accelerate or turn in any reasonable amount of time, you're dead. Wormhole armor brawls are close range, and tend to require orbiting closely or burning through a bubble to engage.
Faction battleship align times with one plate, skirmish links and a Gist X-Type 100mn Afterburner
Vindicator: 10.4s - 565 m/s Machariel: 11.3s - 725 m/s Barghest: 11.8s - 654 m/s Nightmare: 14.8s - 1041 m/s Bhaalgorn: 14.9s - 449 m/s Rattlesnake: 15.5s - 414 m/s
Nestor pre-patch: 15.6s - 520 m/s Nestor post-patch: 22.1s - 523 m/s (stopwatched, pyfa/eft not updated)
Bhaalgorns are fat, and already at a severe risk for dread blapping if they can't get into an orbit quickly even with their sig being lower than Nestors post-patch (400 vs 420). Nestors are now guaranteed death with one dread and a loki on field. You recover speed much slower after webs get jammed off -> you die.
This was my Nestor vs dreads last patch, where I got into orbit quickly and still nearly died during the fight, take a guess as to how that would go this patch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GWfJkn3Zz8
http://puu.sh/b8Jrc/d601f4410c.jpg RIP sweet prince, you're going back to Jita. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
781
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:33:00 -
[448] - Quote
DaJokr wrote:I feel like whoever implemented these changes has never been in a C5/C6 armor fight before. Nestor is useless for wormhole fights with these changes, if you can't accelerate or turn in any reasonable amount of time, you're dead. Wormhole armor brawls are close range, and tend to require orbiting closely or burning through a bubble to engage. Faction battleship align times with one plate, skirmish links and a Gist X-Type 100mn Afterburner Vindicator: 10.4s - 565 m/s Machariel: 11.3s - 725 m/s Barghest: 11.8s - 654 m/s Nightmare: 14.8s - 1041 m/s Bhaalgorn: 14.9s - 449 m/s Rattlesnake: 15.5s - 414 m/s Nestor pre-patch: 15.6s - 520 m/s Nestor post-patch: 22.1s - 523 m/s (stopwatched, pyfa/eft not updated) Bhaalgorns are fat, and already at a severe risk for dread blapping if they can't get into an orbit quickly even with their sig being lower than Nestors post-patch (400 vs 420). Nestors are now guaranteed death with one dread and a loki on field. You recover speed much slower after webs get jammed off -> you die. This was my Nestor vs dreads last patch, where I got into orbit quickly and still nearly died during the fight, take a guess as to how that would go this patch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GWfJkn3Zz8http://puu.sh/b8Jrc/d601f4410c.jpg RIP sweet prince, you're going back to Jita.
your nestor was useless anyway, and you forgot to complain about dreadnoughts being broken. |
Tennej
LoTax POCO Company of HiSEC
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 17:09:00 -
[449] - Quote
Damn not only did they not give it a speed increase....they slowed it down even more....
What a piece of crap..... You Miners think you have it so damn tough.-á When I first started playing we didnt even have mining lasers.-á You had to fly close to an asteroid.....pop a hatch and gnaw at it with your teeth.-á-á - Bitter Vet
|
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 17:55:00 -
[450] - Quote
I just realised I can fit the Zephyr into the maintenance bay! Gets better and better! |
|
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
176
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:39:00 -
[451] - Quote
I honestly think the Nestor can be a good ship: with its current bonuses it could work as a mobile fleet-wide reffiting/quick repairs (repairs as much as 2'5 Guardians) service that doesn't need to be anchored and that can defend itself pretty good too. Would work especially well in W-space; I imagine T3 gangs with 1 or 2 Nestors working as described entering even C1 WH's due to battlecruiser-like mass.
Many people want a covops cloak for it, but it's a battleship after all. If anything, I'd give it the same cloaking capabilities of Black Ops (zero targeting delay, zero scan resolution penalty, increased max speed while cloaked), but without bridging capabilities (they don't make sense on a WH ship, and yes, it is a WH ship). That way it could move around as a mobile base much easier.
I'm pretty confident CCP will continue to make tweaks to it. The new small expansion method is good for adjusting things; it's better to make small, measured changes instead of big, esporadic ones that can break balance.
On this page, there are some changes that could benefit the Nestor in future tweaks. They seem quite reasonable. |
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
44
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:51:00 -
[452] - Quote
So, I spent a fair amount of time last night trying to find a decent way to setup for my Nestor last night, and I just couldn't do it. I realize it's been designed with wormholes in mind, but if I can't make a decent fitting normally I have no idea how someone is supposed to use it in a more unpredictable and dangerous area like the wormholes.
I know the mass changes allow the Nestor to traverse more wormholes than any other BS, but the required trade offs are extremely severe. The base speed is equivalent to a Moros and, due to the high inertia isn't much better than one. This means that even though the Nestor CAN traverse wormholes, it's far to slow and unwieldy to keep up with, and support, ships on the other side.
Honestly, it was probably a better wormhole support ship before the changes.
Since the Nestor has always been suffering a little bit of an identity crisis, with a ton of skills that don't synergize with each other, I have a suggestion:
- Give the Nestor a sensible mass/inertia/velocity profile for a BS - Remove everything except for the remote rep, drone, and armor bonuses - Give it a Role bonus along the lines of : 'Effective mass is [X] when traversing wormholes'
At that point you can re-balance the Nestor to be an effective logistics ship instead of trying to maintain the balanced, but rather ineffective, stats and slot layout it currently needs to support every single option.
Please at least consider this, or another major change. The Nestor just does not, and can not, work in it's current form. It's a ship that's designed to be the core of a small fleet where most of it's functionality is redundant, made useless by the fact that other ships WILL do a better job. Until it looses all the secondary roles, and no longer needs the balanced stats to support them, the Nestor will always be a subpar ship and no amount of tweaking will change that. |
Wrent Simulus
Galactic State
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:24:00 -
[453] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote:I honestly think the Nestor can be a good ship: with its current bonuses it could work as a mobile fleet-wide reffiting/quick repairs (repairs as much as 2'5 Guardians) service that doesn't need to be anchored and that can defend itself pretty good too. Would work especially well in W-space; I imagine T3 gangs with 1 or 2 Nestors working as described entering even C1 WH's due to battlecruiser-like mass. Many people want a covops cloak for it, but it's a battleship after all. If anything, I'd give it the same cloaking capabilities of Black Ops (zero targeting delay, zero scan resolution penalty, increased max speed while cloaked), but without bridging capabilities (they don't make sense on a WH ship, and yes, it is a WH ship). That way it could move around as a mobile base much easier. I'm pretty confident CCP will continue to make tweaks to it. The new small expansion method is good for adjusting things; it's better to make small, measured changes instead of big, esporadic ones that can break balance. On this page, there are some changes that could benefit the Nestor in future tweaks. They seem quite reasonable.
To your latter point, I agree and have hope that there will continue to be changes made to this hull. I think alot of folks on these forums see it moving in the direction of a mobile base/mini-carrier, my only hope is that our vision of what this hull is supposed to be fits with what the developers are thinking.
I know it's tough, and there's probably hesitation due to potential backlash of "you promised X, but gave Y!" but I'd like to re-iterate my request for, even in the broadest possible terms, what the intent of this vessel is supposed to be?
It seems pretty clear that you're moving it towards a Wormhole of all shapes and sizes support vessel, which makes me think that some of the recommendations posted here and elsewhere are in the right-ish direction. But lets see if a short summary of them would help:
- Remote Repping - Make the repair bonuses apply to both shield and armor - Provide some reduction in cap usage for remote reps - Increase range bonuses to remote reps - Alter rep cycles to triage-type repping - Give bonus to remote cap xfer -
- Fitting tweeks - Increase the base powergrid slightly to give some flexibility - Shift a lowslot to a midslot - Allow it to fit fleet assistance modules - Allow it to fit covert cloak - Blops bridges - Give it a jump drive - Small-ish (500-1000m3) fleet hanger - Bump up the SMA to fit a frigate - Capacitor help - Shielded capacitor (neut resistance) - Allow it to fit a bastion/bastion-type module
-Generally identified issues with the hull - Price - Speed - Odd role bonuses considering the hull size (even if they don't "cost" anything) - Playerbase generally confused as to intent of ship - Super - niche uses making the hull outperformed in almost all cases - Repair range cripples it as a logi platform
- General desire for hull - A BS sized logi ship - General-support ship for roams / fleets - Practical (not hyper niche) usage - Not to be too good in too many area's, steer clear of "overpowered" - Decide on a role for the hull and design to that, don't take existing bonuses and attempt to force ship into a variety of roles
These are suggestions I've seen in this forum, other sites, and other forums, they're not all my own, but I was just hoping to get something of a coherent list together after 20+ pages of discussion have occurred. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
177
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:04:00 -
[454] - Quote
Wrent Simulus wrote:These are suggestions I've seen in this forum, other sites, and other forums, they're not all my own, but I was just hoping to get something of a coherent list together after 20+ pages of discussion have occurred. Good idea with that summary. I also agree CCP should give a word on what vision do they have for the ship. In my opinion, it's a W-space support vessel; it's how it seems to lean towards.
Bastion module? Didn't see that before... Could be interesting as a un-jammable logi/drone boat. I see 2 problems though: 1) that module is fairly skill intensive, and 2) not being able to move in W-space for 1 minute can be very dangerous (although it's not neccesarily bad; Marauders are very tough, and any W-pilot should be hooked to the D-Scan button anyway). Might be worth considering though.
|
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3772
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:06:00 -
[455] - Quote
Make the Nestor a BattlecruiserGǪ Give it a faster warp speed, higher velocity, inertia - and give it a Covert Ops cloak already. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Wrent Simulus
Galactic State
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:26:00 -
[456] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote:Wrent Simulus wrote:These are suggestions I've seen in this forum, other sites, and other forums, they're not all my own, but I was just hoping to get something of a coherent list together after 20+ pages of discussion have occurred. Good idea with that summary. I also agree CCP should give a word on what vision do they have for the ship. In my opinion, it's a W-space support vessel; it's how it seems to lean towards. Bastion module? Didn't see that before... Could be interesting as a un-jammable, extra-tanky logi/drone boat. I see 2 problems though: 1) that module is fairly skill intensive, and 2) not being able to move in W-space for 1 minute can be very dangerous (although it's not necessarily bad; Marauders are very tough, and any W-pilot should be hooked to the D-Scan button anyway). Might be worth considering though.
It came up I think twice in this thread, I'm not 100% on it to be honest, but I wanted to include for completeness.
I do agree with your assertion that the hull is/should be geared towards Wormhole living/roaming/life.
My own personal hope would be a versatile logistics platform that could be used in a variety of situations. Hell, I think it'd be a really fun vessel to fly in incursions and mission/plex groups (even taking into account cost) as a versatile platform to support fleets, as my own play style leans towards support/logistics roles. |
Vivianne Athonille
Athonille Logistics and Provisions
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:28:00 -
[457] - Quote
Wrent Simulus wrote:My own personal hope would be a versatile logistics platform that could be used in a variety of situations. Hell, I think it'd be a really fun vessel to fly in incursions and mission/plex groups (even taking into account cost) as a versatile platform to support fleets, as my own play style leans towards support/logistics roles.
This is exactly why I threw out the unbonused Warfare Link at the last moment. Gives it yet another support option, but with no bonuses it wouldn't be the preferred answer. For that matter, don't allow it to fit a link by default but allow Command Processors so it could fit links if the pilot is also willing to give up a mid slot (and a chunk of CPU) for each link.
Flexibility, but at a price. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
474
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 08:44:00 -
[458] - Quote
As I've said before. It's all too much for one ship.
Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)
Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other!
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1592
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:33:00 -
[459] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Battleships need work, period.
Agreed. Battleships lost HALF of their mobility recently. HALF. And go t NOTHING in return.
IT take so long to move a battleship to where it would beneeded that the marginal power it brings is irrelevant. Battleships would need to be VASTLY more pwoerful to compensate the travel time associated now.
ALL battleships should gain some 15-20% EHP, 15-20% more DPS and large repairers /x-large boosters should get a tad stronger as well ( 10% or so). B attleships also need a tad higher sub warp speeds.
When their base speed is so slow the specific values are irrelevant. All battleships shoudl be some 25% FASTER on their base speed. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Vivianne Athonille
Athonille Logistics and Provisions
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 11:45:00 -
[460] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)
Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other!
I may be wrong, but I think CCP has ruled out the CovOps/BLOPs already.
One reason I put the Links out there is it appears that every size class of ship from Cruisers to Titans have an option for fitting Links EXCEPT for BS. If the goal is a support-type BS that can do anything (albeit not very well), then this could be the opportunity to plug this hole.
|
|
Wrent Simulus
Galactic State
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:29:00 -
[461] - Quote
Vivianne Athonille wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)
Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other! I may be wrong, but I think CCP has ruled out the CovOps/BLOPs already. One reason I put the Links out there is it appears that every size class of ship from Cruisers to Titans have an option for fitting Links EXCEPT for BS. If the goal is a support-type BS that can do anything (albeit not very well), then this could be the opportunity to plug this hole.
I think we're talking in the same direction here. I personally don't like the idea of CovOps/Blops or JumpDrive on this hull, partly because it just doesn't feel right on a ship that large, and partly because I think all you're doing is adding another gimmick on a ship that allows it to move around and.... then what? It still wouldn't address the underlying issues of her and we'd end up right back here trying to sort out better bonuses.
Links, and a re-focus on logistics support would breathe much needed life into this hull and provide for a variety of interesting gaming options.
|
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1331
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:07:00 -
[462] - Quote
Quick question...
Comparing to a refit Orca, the maintenance bay is for reshipping, the fleet hangar for refitting...
So does this nestor change really mean you can use it to reship, but not to refit as described?
F Would you like to know more? |
BFE
Thee Almitee Ones
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:09:00 -
[463] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Quick question...
Comparing to a refit Orca, the maintenance bay is for reshipping, the fleet hangar for refitting...
So does this nestor change really mean you can use it to reship, but not to refit as described?
F
You must have the Ship Maintenance Bay for fleet/Corp Members to refit their ships' fitting. depending on your selected authorized users. The Fleet HANGAR is where they can store items/modules/ammo to be used with a refit.
Having one and not the other hurts.... But at least with the Ship Mainenance Bay, those pilots who may carry a couple of modules in their own cargohold would still be able to refit it with the Nestor's Ship Maintenance Bay....
e.g. A drake in your fleet which is currently fitted for EM/Kin resists as their focus finds him/herself in a fight with Exp/Therm ammo being used primarily. (S)He gets close to the Nestor's Ship Maintenance Bay can then refit his/her own shield hardeners to what they want. If the Nestor has a Fleet Hangar, then the Nestor can carry the items for the Drake to use. |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3773
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:29:00 -
[464] - Quote
With the mass exodus of smaller wormhole corporations now underway, the redesigned Nestor is once again DOA for any expanded role for wormhole applications. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:37:00 -
[465] - Quote
BFE wrote:
The problem lies with the Modile Depot... Any ship with a large enough hold can carry it and then the fleet could use it. That's the point CCP wanted when they created it, so I'm not sure why there's such a focus on the Nestor having one.
The idea is that the ships the Nestor is supporting won't have to use 50m3 of their cargo space holding their own depo, nor have to waste the 90s it takes to online the depo by bringing the Nestor. If you're going out to explore/do fleet things with the Nestor as a support ship, you want the cargo space spare for people to loot/salvage more things. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
178
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 20:34:00 -
[466] - Quote
Wrent Simulus wrote:My own personal hope would be a versatile logistics platform that could be used in a variety of situations. Hell, I think it'd be a really fun vessel to fly in incursions and mission/plex groups (even taking into account cost) as a versatile platform to support fleets, as my own play style leans towards support/logistics roles. I'd like it to be able to perform such role too. I think the previous suggestion of extending its repping bonuses to shield RR would help the ship get closer to it; it's a quite interesting idea.
Momiji Sakora wrote:The idea is that the ships the Nestor is supporting won't have to use 50m3 of their cargo space holding their own depo, nor have to waste the 90s it takes to online the depo by bringing the Nestor. If you're going out to explore/do fleet things with the Nestor as a support ship, you want the cargo space spare for people to loot/salvage more things. I agree. There's a lot of difference between a Mobile Depot that has to be anchored and unanchored, can't move (thus is easy to scan down) and can only be used by its owner, and a battleship that can warp around constantly between safe spots (or remain cloaked, if one is willing to sacrifice a highslot and targeting time) whenever no fleet members need to refit, repair armor, or unload cargo, and can be used by the whole fleet. |
BFE
Thee Almitee Ones
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:43:00 -
[467] - Quote
Momiji Sakora wrote:BFE wrote:
The problem lies with the Modile Depot... Any ship with a large enough hold can carry it and then the fleet could use it. That's the point CCP wanted when they created it, so I'm not sure why there's such a focus on the Nestor having one.
The idea is that the ships the Nestor is supporting won't have to use 50m3 of their cargo space holding their own depo, nor have to waste the 90s it takes to online the depo by bringing the Nestor. If you're going out to explore/do fleet things with the Nestor as a support ship, you want the cargo space spare for people to loot/salvage more things.
True... I'd forgotted that the mobile depot is for Launch For Self only.... Good point. If it was a Launch for Corp, then it'd be a different story.... |
Wrent Simulus
Galactic State
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:49:00 -
[468] - Quote
So I've been thinking...
Asking for the rep bonus to be shield and armor AND giving it a range boost would probably tilt the vessel too far into the "overpowered" range (despite all the other obvious drawbacks)
With that being said, would the introduction of modules that are centered on repping and logistics be viable?
For instance, a module(or rig) that increases the range of remote reps, even perhaps implants?
This would give logi pilots a little more choice when it came to fitting out their vessels, and provide some flavor to gameplay as well.
I still think the bonuses should be moved to both shield and armor, to encourage the use of the Nestor in a variety of roles.
-Regards |
Kirluin
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 15:50:00 -
[469] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
Emphasis mine. For those who keep asking "What role do the devs want the Nestor to fill?" It's about the clearest answer to that I've seen. |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3775
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 18:06:00 -
[470] - Quote
Kirluin wrote:Emphasis mine. For those who keep asking "What role do the devs want the Nestor to fill?" It's about the clearest answer to that I've seen. It's still lacking in several key areas. Why not ditch the lasers and associated bonuses and give it the ability to have a clone vat bay? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|
Wrent Simulus
Galactic State
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 02:15:00 -
[471] - Quote
Kirluin wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.
Emphasis mine. For those who keep asking "What role do the devs want the Nestor to fill?" It's about the clearest answer to that I've seen.
I see this, but...
The increased sensor strength is nice; however, I believe that the hull as a whole should be reviewed to reflect this sentiment as fully as possible.
I'm a Nestor fan, and want to see this vessel become something unique and fun to fly.
I don't personally think that the proposed changes to the hull (in moderation, not all of them) would do anything other than re-introduce a great hull that had a role to play in groups of many sizes, without completely making obsolete existing hulls.
I want to say thanks to everyone who's participated so far in the conversation and I look forward to working together to present idea's that are reasonable and desired by the community to the CCP team.
-Regards |
Arthur Aihaken
Halas Hooligans
3777
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 06:16:00 -
[472] - Quote
I decided to "test-drive" the new Nestor and relay some constructive feedback. Overall (surprisingly enough) - these changes do make a noticeable difference.
The Good GÇó Mass, inertia, velocity and sensor strength - all great. They all tie-in nicely with the ship now. GÇó Ship maintenance bay - definitely a plus. Somewhere to finally park my Leopard.
Suggested Improvements GÇó The Nestor really needs a 7th low slot. I would be inclined to drop one laser turret/high slot (since grid is already an issue when trying to run Tachyons) and swap it for an extra low slot. I think this would expand some of the existing roles and make it more versatile. GÇó Slight increase in scan resolution from 125mm to somewhere in the 130-150mm range. GÇó A bit more power grid. 12,500 MW would be ideal. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 22:34:00 -
[473] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Quick question...
Comparing to a refit Orca, the maintenance bay is for reshipping, the fleet hangar for refitting...
So does this nestor change really mean you can use it to reship, but not to refit as described?
F Nope, you can refit off of the Nestor. Tried it out on the test server to make sure. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 22:41:00 -
[474] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Quick question...
Comparing to a refit Orca, the maintenance bay is for reshipping, the fleet hangar for refitting...
So does this nestor change really mean you can use it to reship, but not to refit as described?
F
Fleet hangers can not be used to refit in space only ship maintenance bays can be the fleet hanger can hold mods to use for refitting so that may be where you are confused |
Vivianne Athonille
Athonille Logistics and Provisions
25
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 02:55:00 -
[475] - Quote
Did a quick review of ships that have a ship maintenance bay...
Orca, Rorqual, carriers, super carriers, titans, and now the Nestor
What else do they all have in common (except for the Nestor at the moment) ?
Warfare links...
|
GordonO
The Oasis Group
59
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:28:00 -
[476] - Quote
Can you PLEASE give the RR bonuses to shields also ?? or are the plans to have a similar role based shield battle ship. it a really handy tool when helping out new players but only if they are armor tankers. . |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
117
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 09:29:00 -
[477] - Quote
Did a bit of asking around and the nestor is the only non-missile BS that you simply cannot get into an incursion fleet with. If anyone has, please evemail me the fit.
As far as the nes and hacking, I've ran across one person that uses it for hacking COSMOS but otherwise I've heard nothing on it bieng used elsewhere for the same.
Exploration ships should be reasonably fast and agile, or at least middle of the pack. This....thing needs help. The bonuses remind me of a T3 I set up in eft while drunk.
switching to shield and armor rep bonus rather than just armor (Or have SOCT release their shield BS counterpart), instead of giving it bastion, set it up with a triage version of a bastion that increases rep range, tank and a bonus to rep cap usage would be beneficial.
it's 5am, sorry if I'm a bit scattered. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
476
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 11:17:00 -
[478] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote: switching to shield and armor rep bonus rather than just armor (Or have SOCT release their shield BS counterpart), .
An SoCT Logistics Battleship would be able to do both as they are focused on versatility.
An SoCT Battleship I imagine would have all the same bonuses as a Gnosis (damage+ scan probe strength + fit fleet assist mods) but also have the rep bonuses to shield and armour |
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
25
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:57:00 -
[479] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote:Did a bit of asking around and the nestor is the only non-missile BS that you simply cannot get into an incursion fleet with. If anyone has, please evemail me the fit.
As far as the nes and hacking, I've ran across one person that uses it for hacking COSMOS but otherwise I've heard nothing on it bieng used elsewhere for the same.
Exploration ships should be reasonably fast and agile, or at least middle of the pack. This....thing needs help. The bonuses remind me of a T3 I set up in eft while drunk.
switching to shield and armor rep bonus rather than just armor (Or have SOCT release their shield BS counterpart), instead of giving it bastion, set it up with a triage version of a bastion that increases rep range, tank and a bonus to rep cap usage would be beneficial.
it's 5am, sorry if I'm a bit scattered.
I am a long long term Nestor fan, and can tell you there actually there is a fit for a VG Nestor, and if you have the ISK it's possible to fit it for a HQ too, as a DPS ship, not as a logi (VG is currently the only place a nestor can logi viably without changing the current way Incursion FCs run them).
I'm currently not logged into EVE to send you the fit. You'll get a lot of FC's who moan or whinge about it, and you HAVE to have close to perfect drone skills (Sentry and racial spec to 5) before it becomes legitimately viable but it is possible.
At the moment the VG and HQ Nestor can out DPS and out maneuver the staple armour BS Napoc. It's additional rep bonuses mean if there is any panic moments in your fleet where you need extra logi help the Nestor can fill the gap amply and then some.
If your fleet needs a hacker or ore dropper it's speed and relic hack can fill both those roles! |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1522
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 03:27:00 -
[480] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Mhari Dson wrote: switching to shield and armor rep bonus rather than just armor (Or have SOCT release their shield BS counterpart), .
An SoCT Logistics Battleship would be able to do both as they are focused on versatility. An SoCT Battleship I imagine would have all the same bonuses as a Gnosis (damage+ scan probe strength + fit fleet assist mods) but also have the rep bonuses to shield and armour You assume the Gnosis is standard for SoCT rather than a specific release they designed for the capsuleer market. Also note the skills needed to fly the Gnosis as a note, and how much it gets better with BC skills.....
So I think it's safe to say we won't see similar releases at the BS level that aren't limited. |
|
MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
18
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 07:43:00 -
[481] - Quote
The Nestor has really weird agility problem after you guys messed with the mass, particularly when a propulsion module is turned on.
I hate to say it but I wish you guys would do something more for it to focus it a bit. As a drone boat its not really exciting because it gets the vanilla 50% damage/hp bonus and nothing else. To be exciting it needs tracking or drone range or drone speed or something. As a laser boat its particularly bizarre, because it doesn't have that many turrets and it doesn't have a damage bonus. There is no way it's efficient to stick heat sinks on there and focus on lasers. As a rep boat it has terrible scan resolution even for a battleship and no accommodation for capacitor. Not to mention the gimp range compared to a logi. For added ***** and giggle that 2.5 warp speed is a major tease. Its not fast enough to keep up with the cruiser roaming gangs like a Machariel but its like halfway there. Making it possible to fit off it in combat is interesting, but its an entire new direction again. In fact the ship is so scattershot that the slot layout almost encourages you to ignore the armor bonus and fit shields. You get a respectable tank and you can actually comfortably fit a full set of damage mods.
Stop throwing new abilities at this ship until people like. Figure out your vision for the thing and make it good at being that. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
478
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 08:51:00 -
[482] - Quote
Wrent Simulus wrote:Vivianne Athonille wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)
Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other! I may be wrong, but I think CCP has ruled out the CovOps/BLOPs already. One reason I put the Links out there is it appears that every size class of ship from Cruisers to Titans have an option for fitting Links EXCEPT for BS. If the goal is a support-type BS that can do anything (albeit not very well), then this could be the opportunity to plug this hole. I think we're talking in the same direction here. I personally don't like the idea of CovOps/Blops or JumpDrive on this hull, partly because it just doesn't feel right on a ship that large, and partly because I think all you're doing is adding another gimmick on a ship that allows it to move around and.... then what? It still wouldn't address the underlying issues of her and we'd end up right back here trying to sort out better bonuses. Links, and a re-focus on logistics support would breathe much needed life into this hull and provide for a variety of interesting gaming options.
Yes but what I'm suggesting is to scrap the logistics role of the Nestor all together. Make it simply a BS with a SMA and a BLOPs style set of bonuses to cloaking. Consider giving the ship a covert jump drive and the ability to fit covert jump portal generator so the ship can actually support it's small ship classes by bridging them. This will mean giving the Astero and Stratios the ability to fit covert cyno generators (perhaps just the Astero).
Then create an entirely new ship which is a Battlecruiser. This ship will be the support ship. It will have the logistics bonuses the current Nestor has and will be able to fit links. It will only have the same offensive capabilities of the Stratios but it will be a little tankier and slower so giving it a Cov Ops cloak won't be that big of a deal.
Then we have ships with real purpose: Astero: Combat Scout Stratios: Combat Exploration Eurydice (Battlecruiser): Combat Support Nestor: Combat Mothership - Battleship |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
572
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 08:51:40 -
[483] - Quote
Wrent Simulus wrote:Vivianne Athonille wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)
Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other! I may be wrong, but I think CCP has ruled out the CovOps/BLOPs already. One reason I put the Links out there is it appears that every size class of ship from Cruisers to Titans have an option for fitting Links EXCEPT for BS. If the goal is a support-type BS that can do anything (albeit not very well), then this could be the opportunity to plug this hole. I think we're talking in the same direction here. I personally don't like the idea of CovOps/Blops or JumpDrive on this hull, partly because it just doesn't feel right on a ship that large, and partly because I think all you're doing is adding another gimmick on a ship that allows it to move around and.... then what? It still wouldn't address the underlying issues of her and we'd end up right back here trying to sort out better bonuses. Links, and a re-focus on logistics support would breathe much needed life into this hull and provide for a variety of interesting gaming options.
Yes but what I'm suggesting is to scrap the logistics role of the Nestor all together. Make it simply a BS with a SMA and a BLOPs style set of bonuses to cloaking. Consider giving the ship a covert jump drive and the ability to fit covert jump portal generator so the ship can actually support it's small ship classes by bridging them. This will mean giving the Astero and Stratios the ability to fit covert cyno generators (perhaps just the Astero).
Then create an entirely new ship which is a Battlecruiser. This ship will be the support ship. It will have the logistics bonuses the current Nestor has and will be able to fit links. It will only have the same offensive capabilities of the Stratios but it will be a little tankier and slower so giving it a Cov Ops cloak won't be that big of a deal.
Then we have ships with real purpose: Astero: Combat Scout Stratios: Combat Exploration Eurydice (Battlecruiser): Combat Support Nestor: Combat Mothership - Battleship |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 14:07:00 -
[484] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Wrent Simulus wrote:Vivianne Athonille wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)
Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other! I may be wrong, but I think CCP has ruled out the CovOps/BLOPs already. One reason I put the Links out there is it appears that every size class of ship from Cruisers to Titans have an option for fitting Links EXCEPT for BS. If the goal is a support-type BS that can do anything (albeit not very well), then this could be the opportunity to plug this hole. I think we're talking in the same direction here. I personally don't like the idea of CovOps/Blops or JumpDrive on this hull, partly because it just doesn't feel right on a ship that large, and partly because I think all you're doing is adding another gimmick on a ship that allows it to move around and.... then what? It still wouldn't address the underlying issues of her and we'd end up right back here trying to sort out better bonuses. Links, and a re-focus on logistics support would breathe much needed life into this hull and provide for a variety of interesting gaming options. Yes but what I'm suggesting is to scrap the logistics role of the Nestor all together. Players like myself are already using the Nestor for that very role, though. And quite effectively might I add. As I've said in other threads, the Nestor is the premier anti-ganking vessel. It decimates anything else by a long shot. It is also very, very good at logistics supports when station baiting and the like. Basically, a beast when needing logi for under a min.
The problem with the Nestor outside of high-sec seems to be that a carrier is only a small bit more expensive, yet far more effective. I know crap all about capital ships, but I'm assuming a carrier can rep a subcap? If not, I apologize for my ignorance.
It does struggle with cap though, which would be an issue in a *real* fight. Perhaps adjust the cap usage then. All this has been mentioned though, really just wanted to get that first paragraph across. |
Joker Dronemaster
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 20:41:00 -
[485] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.
As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.
Thanks -Fozzie
Observe all you want, without a jump drive this ship will always be out of place and unpopular within its ship line. And please do not add a cloak to this thing........... On the other hand, catching morons trying to slip these things around in null sec would get me a lot of shiny KMs........ So yea I'm a little conflicted on that point. |
Joker Dronemaster
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 20:41:09 -
[486] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.
As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.
Thanks -Fozzie
Observe all you want, without a jump drive this ship will always be out of place and unpopular within its ship line. And please do not add a cloak to this thing........... On the other hand, catching morons trying to slip these things around in null sec would get me a lot of shiny KMs........ So yea I'm a little conflicted on that point. |
mannyman
Catastrophic Operations The Unthinkables
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 13:33:00 -
[487] - Quote
I also came with an idea for Nestor which I know has been discussed before about idea itself, but The reality is that Eve need more people to dare explore 0.0 and give 0.0 players more targets to run around and try to shoot at.
BLOPS ships are not good enough to do 0.0 sites with. the cap sucks, but their role and uniqueness is role combat bridging of fleets.
The Nestor with my idea is to give it a more unique exlporation vessel to run around the solar systems without the need to use gates. But a cyno lock offcourse. The vessel should not be able to use covert ops cloak. Normal cloak is fine enough. Pilot skills will determine if you survive in it or not.
Also the ship can in 0.0 alliances be used to save other people by offering refitting. Yes, a carrier can do this too, but a battleship is alot more versatile to save a stranded T3 that didnt bring a mobile depot and covert ops reconfiguration. (then a blops can jump in and bridge the pilot out).
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5031872
I hope devs has seen my post. Would be nice with a comment from devs that it is on the table for consideration.
I know the nestor will be very much used if it got a jumpdrive. A jumpdrive that can not bridge.
|
mannyman
High Flyers The Kadeshi
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 13:33:29 -
[488] - Quote
I also came with an idea for Nestor which I know has been discussed before about idea itself, but The reality is that Eve need more people to dare explore 0.0 and give 0.0 players more targets to run around and try to shoot at.
BLOPS ships are not good enough to do 0.0 sites with. the cap sucks, but their role and uniqueness is role combat bridging of fleets.
The Nestor with my idea is to give it a more unique exlporation vessel to run around the solar systems without the need to use gates. But a cyno lock offcourse. The vessel should not be able to use covert ops cloak. Normal cloak is fine enough. Pilot skills will determine if you survive in it or not.
Also the ship can in 0.0 alliances be used to save other people by offering refitting. Yes, a carrier can do this too, but a battleship is alot more versatile to save a stranded T3 that didnt bring a mobile depot and covert ops reconfiguration. (then a blops can jump in and bridge the pilot out).
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5031872
I hope devs has seen my post. Would be nice with a comment from devs that it is on the table for consideration.
I know the nestor will be very much used if it got a jumpdrive. A jumpdrive that can not bridge.
|
Sradoc
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
27
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 01:44:00 -
[489] - Quote
With the introduction of jump fatigue there should be more sub cap ships with built in jump drives.
The nestor would be a perfect addition. But no jump bridge, that would still keep it in line with SOEs class of covert ships that can't fit a covert cyno.
Also, allow us to put a fighter in that SMA. For now, I just keep my zypher in it so I don't need to fit a probe launcher. You all forgot about that little thing didn't you! |
Sradoc
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
27
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 01:44:53 -
[490] - Quote
With the introduction of jump fatigue there should be more sub cap ships with built in jump drives.
The nestor would be a perfect addition. But no jump bridge, that would still keep it in line with SOEs class of covert ships that can't fit a covert cyno.
Also, allow us to put a fighter in that SMA. For now, I just keep my zypher in it so I don't need to fit a probe launcher. You all forgot about that little thing didn't you! |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
132
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 11:07:00 -
[491] - Quote
Sradoc wrote:With the introduction of jump fatigue there should be more sub cap ships with built in jump drives.
The nestor would be a perfect addition. But no jump bridge, that would still keep it in line with SOEs class of covert ships that can't fit a covert cyno.
Also, allow us to put a fighter in that SMA. For now, I just keep my zypher in it so I don't need to fit a probe launcher. You all forgot about that little thing didn't you! How does jump fatigue equal sub caps with jump drives and why would a fighter be allowed into a SMA and for what reason? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
265
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 11:07:32 -
[492] - Quote
Sradoc wrote:With the introduction of jump fatigue there should be more sub cap ships with built in jump drives.
The nestor would be a perfect addition. But no jump bridge, that would still keep it in line with SOEs class of covert ships that can't fit a covert cyno.
Also, allow us to put a fighter in that SMA. For now, I just keep my zypher in it so I don't need to fit a probe launcher. You all forgot about that little thing didn't you! How does jump fatigue equal sub caps with jump drives and why would a fighter be allowed into a SMA and for what reason? |
Sradoc
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
27
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 11:32:00 -
[493] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sradoc wrote:With the introduction of jump fatigue there should be more sub cap ships with built in jump drives.
The nestor would be a perfect addition. But no jump bridge, that would still keep it in line with SOEs class of covert ships that can't fit a covert cyno.
Also, allow us to put a fighter in that SMA. For now, I just keep my zypher in it so I don't need to fit a probe launcher. You all forgot about that little thing didn't you! How does jump fatigue equal sub caps with jump drives and why would a fighter be allowed into a SMA and for what reason?
Jump Fatigue does not equal sub cap ships with jump drive. It would help corral the abuse of jump drives on sub caps, say, the nestor.
As for fighters, well...I suppose everyone is not as familiar with them so here's why. Fighters need 5km3 of room, and can't fit in the drone bay. Fighters are a sort of small ship, exactly the size of shuttle. Soooo, if it fits then why not? What fighters can be used for attack things...usually big things...more importantly in a fleet you can delegate control which can open up a lot of interesting new tactics. They can also chase down your target around the solar system, cue the Benny Hill theme song! |
Sradoc
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
27
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 11:32:20 -
[494] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sradoc wrote:With the introduction of jump fatigue there should be more sub cap ships with built in jump drives.
The nestor would be a perfect addition. But no jump bridge, that would still keep it in line with SOEs class of covert ships that can't fit a covert cyno.
Also, allow us to put a fighter in that SMA. For now, I just keep my zypher in it so I don't need to fit a probe launcher. You all forgot about that little thing didn't you! How does jump fatigue equal sub caps with jump drives and why would a fighter be allowed into a SMA and for what reason?
Jump Fatigue does not equal sub cap ships with jump drive. It would help corral the abuse of jump drives on sub caps, say, the nestor.
As for fighters, well...I suppose everyone is not as familiar with them so here's why. Fighters need 5km3 of room, and can't fit in the drone bay. Fighters are a sort of small ship, exactly the size of shuttle. Soooo, if it fits then why not? What fighters can be used for attack things...usually big things...more importantly in a fleet you can delegate control which can open up a lot of interesting new tactics. They can also chase down your target around the solar system, cue the Benny Hill theme song! |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
268
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:31:00 -
[495] - Quote
I think they are getting closer with the Nestor. Many of it's abilities and stats are looking good to me, especially the fitting service.
Add a small fleet hangar (2500 m3) and covert ops cloak ability and I'd buy one now.
However, if the add in the jump drive and ability to bridge I could go without the cloak, but I'd like to see it use covops cynos which is right in line with its exploration-type mission. Of course, the Astero and Stratios would have to be able to light the covops cynos. Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
276
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:31:20 -
[496] - Quote
I think they are getting closer with the Nestor. Many of it's abilities and stats are looking good to me, especially the fitting service.
Add a small fleet hangar (2500 m3) and covert ops cloak ability and I'd buy one now.
However, if the add in the jump drive and ability to bridge I could go without the cloak, but I'd like to see it use covops cynos which is right in line with its exploration-type mission. Of course, the Astero and Stratios would have to be able to light the covops cynos.
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
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Ben Ishikela
Moira. Villore Accords
1
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:35:00 -
[497] - Quote
Make the Nestor the only ship, that gets a bonus to a new module. the "system-wide-cyno-jammer". Bonus is: this ship can still move, while other Battleships cant. Nestor still cant warp, when this is activated. How is that for a unique role in fleet support?
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Ben Ishikela
Medico - Health Provisions
7
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:35:03 -
[498] - Quote
Make the Nestor the only ship, that gets a bonus to a new module. the "system-wide-cyno-jammer". Bonus is: this ship can still move, while other Battleships cant. Nestor still cant warp, when this is activated. How is that for a unique role in fleet support?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
134
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 19:54:00 -
[499] - Quote
Sradoc wrote: s jump fatigue equal sub caps with jump drives and why would a fighter be allowed into a SMA and for what reason?
Jump Fatigue does not equal sub cap ships with jump drive. It would help corral the abuse of jump drives on sub caps, say, the nestor.
As for fighters, well...I suppose everyone is not as familiar with them so here's why. Fighters need 5km3 of room, and can't fit in the drone bay. Fighters are a sort of small ship, exactly the size of shuttle. Soooo, if it fits then why not? What fighters can be used for attack things...usually big things...more importantly in a fleet you can delegate control which can open up a lot of interesting new tactics. They can also chase down your target around the solar system, cue the Benny Hill theme song![/quote]
Well i still don't feel they need jump drives particularly do to the extra time it takes just to sit in a ship with one.
as for fighters yes they can fir in drone bays but only on ships that can use them placing int in the maint bay would do nothing as you can't launch drones from any bay other then the drone bay.
as for the cyno jam nestor someone brought up, that would be cool |
Lugh Crow-Slave
265
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 19:54:21 -
[500] - Quote
Sradoc wrote: s jump fatigue equal sub caps with jump drives and why would a fighter be allowed into a SMA and for what reason?
Jump Fatigue does not equal sub cap ships with jump drive. It would help corral the abuse of jump drives on sub caps, say, the nestor.
As for fighters, well...I suppose everyone is not as familiar with them so here's why. Fighters need 5km3 of room, and can't fit in the drone bay. Fighters are a sort of small ship, exactly the size of shuttle. Soooo, if it fits then why not? What fighters can be used for attack things...usually big things...more importantly in a fleet you can delegate control which can open up a lot of interesting new tactics. They can also chase down your target around the solar system, cue the Benny Hill theme song![/quote]
Well i still don't feel they need jump drives particularly do to the extra time it takes just to sit in a ship with one.
as for fighters yes they can fir in drone bays but only on ships that can use them placing int in the maint bay would do nothing as you can't launch drones from any bay other then the drone bay.
as for the cyno jam nestor someone brought up, that would be cool |
|
Cedims
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 01:51:00 -
[501] - Quote
I also think we should try covert ops cloaking capabilities on the Nestor.
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Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
277
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 01:51:00 -
[502] - Quote
I've flown a nestor for a while and have a better feel of what it can do. It's a very average battleship, especially for its incredible price but it does have some use as a logistics platform.
- The remote repair role is easily its best attribute. I see this as being the focus for future improvements for the ship.
- The agility is excellent, as is the warp speed even if this is more of an Angel Cartel bonus and has no connection to other SoE ships.
- The attempt to lower the price by increasing the drop the nexus chip has failed to shave off more than 10%-15% from its exorbitant price tag.
- Given the upcoming nerf to jump drives, I see the drone regions being even less popular than they are now, and therefore less of these chips being utilized. The price isn't going to come down anytime soon without intervention.
- The 'scouting' role in its traits section is amusing. Nobody is going to use this thing to scout for a fleet when smaller and cheaper ships are far more capable. Battleships simply don't scout.
- Its damage output is average, so it's not a dps beast either, for missions or for pvp.
- Its bonuses are still 'darts thrown at a board' level of unfocused.
Recommendations:
- Remove the probe bonus.
- Remove the relic and data analyzer bonus.
- Since it no longer needs 6 mids (for analyzers) remove one mid slot and add a low slot. This can still be used for cap generation for its role as a heavy subcap logistics platform, or to increase its toughness or damage output, both of which are very useful to it.
- Increase its capacitor by another 5%-10%. Lasers and remote reps chew through its cap pretty quickly.
- Focus its abilities on logistics, the 'Hospitalier' role it should have been from the start:
50% bonus to Remote Armor, Hull and Shield Repairer amount 200% bonus to Remote Armor, Hull and Shield Repairer range
X |
Cedims
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 01:51:12 -
[503] - Quote
I also think we should try covert ops cloaking capabilities on the Nestor.
|
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
294
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 01:51:14 -
[504] - Quote
I've flown a nestor for a while and have a better feel of what it can do. It's a very average battleship, especially for its incredible price but it does have some use as a logistics platform.
- The remote repair role is easily its best attribute. I see this as being the focus for future improvements for the ship.
- The agility is excellent, as is the warp speed even if this is more of an Angel Cartel bonus and has no connection to other SoE ships.
- The attempt to lower the price by increasing the drop the nexus chip has failed to shave off more than 10%-15% from its exorbitant price tag.
- Given the upcoming nerf to jump drives, I see the drone regions being even less popular than they are now, and therefore less of these chips being utilized. The price isn't going to come down anytime soon without intervention.
- The 'scouting' role in its traits section is amusing. Nobody is going to use this thing to scout for a fleet when smaller and cheaper ships are far more capable. Battleships simply don't scout.
- Its damage output is average, so it's not a dps beast either, for missions or for pvp.
- Its bonuses are still 'darts thrown at a board' level of unfocused.
Recommendations:
- Remove the probe bonus.
- Remove the relic and data analyzer bonus.
- Since it no longer needs 6 mids (for analyzers) remove one mid slot and add a low slot. This can still be used for cap generation for its role as a heavy subcap logistics platform, or to increase its toughness or damage output, both of which are very useful to it.
- Increase its capacitor by another 5%-10%. Lasers and remote reps chew through its cap pretty quickly.
- Focus its abilities on logistics, the 'Hospitalier' role it should have been from the start:
50% bonus to Remote Armor, Hull and Shield Repairer amount 200% bonus to Remote Armor, Hull and Shield Repairer range
"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
|
Kaede Hita
K.H. Holding
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 20:01:24 -
[505] - Quote
Galphii wrote: 50% bonus to Remote Armor, Hull and Shield Repairer amount 200% bonus to Remote Armor, Hull and Shield Repairer range
Just no, especially for the hull part. No reason why amarr/gallente hybrid faction should have shield bonuses.
My concern is the balance of the ship in c1 wormholes. I fail tosee a counter to those ships. Lets take as an exemple a 2vs2 fight in a c1. let's say pilots have the same skill points, and none of them is local (couldn't build battleships in a POS). If team A have 2 nestors, what kind of ships team B should use to get a fair fight ?
I would tweak down the nestor's tank CPU and powergrid to a battlecruiser-sized ship to make it on par with other C1 sized ships. This would be the first battlecruiser class pirate ship. And yes people would have to train different skills,. I would keep the a big drone bay, and give it oracle like bonuses to large turrets so it keeps the same DPS. I would also lower the LP price of the ships/blueprint in LP store, making it less rare and hopefully cheaper. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1457
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 14:48:01 -
[506] - Quote
Ok, I don't know whether this thrad is still alive, but it would be wonderful to see this ship gain a wider wormhole useage.
Here are some suggestions.
1. Give the Nestor Dscan immunity in the manner of the combat recons. This allows the ship to travel with covert and cloaky wormhole fleets.
2. Allow the logistics bonus to also apply to shield repairers.
3. Remove all bonuses to large lasers, balance to assume they will not be fitted.
4. Allow 30m3 bandwidth of "Gila" class bonuses to medium drones reflecting the fact that all the damage now comes from drones. Retain dronebay to allow for extended deployment losses.
5. Balance powergrid, CPU, and capacitor to reflect these changes. Possibly reduce cap useage of repair modules.
This focuses the ship, and would be a far more useful vessel than currently exists and will not only be something quite focused, but also quite flexible.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4046
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 18:51:28 -
[507] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Ok, I don't know whether this thrad is still alive I was just going to say... "How is this thread still alive?"
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Krops Vont
Hard Knocks Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 21:21:06 -
[508] - Quote
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:Add a small fleet hangar (4000 m3) and cloak reactivation bonus and I'd buy one now.
No covert. Nah.
FTFY
As with any human, we must map out everything for the sake of living. So what happens when you put the same aspect in a game with random events? They go nuts trying to figure out how to predict and map out everything.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1014
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 21:56:11 -
[509] - Quote
Amarr Bonus + Range to Remote Reps (20%/level) Gal Bonus + Remote Rep Strength (10%/Level)
Role Bonus + Remote Cap Transfer Amount (50%) + Move speed while using a Cloaking Device (+300%) Can Fit Black Ops Portal Generators -95% Mass when using Black Ops Jump Portals.
- Fuel Bay (1250m3) - SMB (5Km3)
Remove Laser Bonus Drone Bonus Scanning Bonus Analyzer Bonus. Drone Bay
Some notes.
This ship can bridge ships, but not jump itself directly (no jump drive) it has a trait that reduces its mass while using Black Ops bridges. Meaning it must be bridged by another Black Ops BS (including another Nestor).
The Bonus to remote reps is indiscriminate and can be used with Shield or Armor Reps.
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