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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
JamDunc
Team JK
105
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Posted - 2013.11.16 14:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't mean they are about to start making us all space barbies again, I mean the mistakes they made in the past could be about to repeat themselves.
After the summer of rage Hilmar was forced to come back to the community (with or without his $1000 Japanese jeans) and pretty much beg forgiveness. He had lost a fair chunk of his playerbase and was about to lay off about 20% of his workforce.
Quote:Somewhere along the way, I began taking success for granted. As hubris set in, I became less inclined to listen to pleas for caution. Red flags raised by very smart people both at CCP and in the community went unheeded because of my stubborn refusal to allow adversity to gain purchase on our plans. Mistakes, even when they were acknowledged, often went unanalyzed, leaving the door open for them to be repeated. Hilmar
We were told that he would talk to the community more and try to keep us all on the same page. Things went well for awhile.
Over the last few months things seem to be repeating themselves.
1 - Trillions of isks worth of ships to Somer - CCP didn't feel the need to tell the community or even the CSM. CCP no longer feels the need to discuss things with the community
2 - The community event - more than the event it was their response to it. Trying to convince us it was a success. They are either losing the connection to the community or heading back into denial.
3 - GM changes - You can now be banned for "impersonating" your own alt. You can also be banned for scraping the APIs, but even though its against the EULA they won't ban you, well unless they do. They are returning to half thought out ideas that make no sense at all.
Then we have the BIG one. Seaguls vision. Does anyone else remember the build up to Incarna? It was going to be awesome, it was going to be amazing, it was going to change the universe forever......but we can't tell you anything about how it will work. No we also can't tell the CSM.....you know for 'reasons'.
They sunk HUGE amounts of resources into it only to discover the players didn't want it (even though they had been hyped by the non information) all that Dev time goes to waste.
Today we have this new vision that is going to be awesome, it is going to be amazing, it is going to change the universe forever......but we can't tell you anything about how it will work. No we also can't tell the CSM.....you know for 'reasons'.
I know its early in the process and its not all final so they can't be super specific, but does anyone else feel a little history repeating. |
Prince Kobol
1149
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Posted - 2013.11.16 14:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
I've long since learnt to ignore anything said at Fanfest or any other CCP Event.
Also every time CCP mentions the word vision in a sentence I just laugh. |
JamDunc
Team JK
105
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Posted - 2013.11.16 14:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:I've long since learnt to ignore anything said at Fanfest or any other CCP Event.
I did rage a little when Hilmar stood on stage at the last Fanfest and told us that 5 years ago they said we were going to get to fight on planets and today its a reality in the form of Dust, I thought a slap in the face and a stern talking to were in order after that.
They do seem to have a mental block on New Eden and Eve. They think anything they add in the New Eden setting is Eve, we say unless we can do it from the Eve client its not Eve.
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
291
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Posted - 2013.11.16 14:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's a vision for a reason. Something they want to be able to do (and in this case, something the community also thinks is awesome). But for a variety of reasons are not ready to implement yet.
Making promises, especially in game development, is always dangerous. CCP is hardly the only developer who learned that the hard way. Bioware and Mass Effect 3 come to mind among dozens of others. But that doesn't mean you should just sit down and keep your vision to yourself.
When Seagull presented the 5 year plan of introducing player built Stargates and all that other amazing stuff, they explicitly mentioned that for the time being it was just a vision. Nothing about it was in development yet and it was no hard promise of any kind. With Incarna they basically promised it would happen which eventually caused them to swallow their words. And even then the project isn't canceled, but merely delayed for an unknown amount of time. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the station door open one day. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |
Kate stark
870
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
judging by that quote nothing at ccp has changed. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |
JamDunc
Team JK
107
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:judging by that quote nothing at ccp has changed.
It did for awhile. For a short time they became really open. Asked question got feedback and for a year or two there was pretty much no drama and rage. Then they hired a bunch of guys from EA and clammed up again.
Then things started to go to ****. Over the last year, how many stupid moves has CCP done that could have easily been avoided by communicating more?
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Haedonism Bot
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
457
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Eve is an awesome game and CCP deserves most of the credit for that. Yes, they have made many ill-conceived "improvements", and at times they seem like they couldn't be more out of touch with the community. We don't make it any easier on them when some among us complain about every single decision that they make, good or bad. They haven't killed EVE yet though. everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com |
TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
291
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
JamDunc wrote:Kate stark wrote:judging by that quote nothing at ccp has changed. It did for awhile. For a short time they became really open. Asked question got feedback and for a year or two there was pretty much no drama and rage. Then they hired a bunch of guys from EA and clammed up again. Then things started to go to ****. Over the last year, how many stupid moves has CCP done that could have easily been avoided by communicating more?
In my opinion more communication isn't automatically a positive influence on the game development process. Aside from the fact that it costs a lot of valuable time to communicate everything with the community, there's only two things that can realistically happen.
1. The community gives feedback and CCP listens, in the worst case having to change their entire development schedule and setting a project back by months, costing tons of money in manpower.
2. The community gives feedback and CCP decides to ignore it if it results in too big of a change, keeping to schedule and keeping down costs but the community is in uproar.
There's a reason 99% of the game developers out there use scenario number 2. Money and manpower is a limited resource with which you can only do so much, which is something the players of said games like to often forget.
Somewhere after those two years CCP figured out (with or without advice from the EA guy) that being too involved with the community can actually hurt your development process. So they toned it down a bit.
For all intents and purposes CCP is still heavily involved with the community through regular Dev Blogs, the CSM, Fan Fest, being somewhat active on the forum, etc. I would just like for people to appreciate what they have for once instead of always demanding more. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |
Krixtal Icefluxor
The Scope Gallente Federation
72769
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
JamDunc wrote:I don't mean they are about to start making us all space barbies again, I mean the mistakes they made in the past could be about to repeat themselves.
You must be the last EVE Player to not know that IncanaDebacle had nothing, nothing to do with Avatars. At ALL.
It was the incomplete nature of CQ, and with only the Minnie CQ available. And the lack of avatar interaction and a sealed Door. That...or a static picture of The Door were the options when docking.
Had nothing to do with your barbies themselves. Leave them out of it.
derp. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Arduemont
The State of War.
2366
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 15:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
JamDunc wrote:IThey sunk HUGE amounts of resources into it only to discover the players didn't want it
Are you kidding me? The player-base didn't want it? Of course they wanted it, and they still do. The reason everyone was pissed was because we never got it. We got one room, not even a multiplayer environment and a character creator that is worth **** all because no one ever sees your character.
People were pissed about Incarna because they failed to deliver, greed is good, they removed ship spinning and tried to force CQ on people. The CQ burned out people's graphics cards and wouldn't run on equipment that was well well about the recommended specs. That's why everyone was pissed. Not because they didn't want it. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
2523
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
JamDunc wrote:(...)
Then we have the BIG one. Seaguls vision. Does anyone else remember the build up to Incarna? It was going to be awesome, it was going to be amazing, it was going to change the universe forever......but we can't tell you anything about how it will work. No we also can't tell the CSM.....you know for 'reasons'.
They sunk HUGE amounts of resources into it only to discover the players didn't want it (even though they had been hyped by the non information) all that Dev time goes to waste.
Today we have this new vision that is going to be awesome, it is going to be amazing, it is going to change the universe forever......but we can't tell you anything about how it will work. No we also can't tell the CSM.....you know for 'reasons'.
I know its early in the process and its not all final so they can't be super specific, but does anyone else feel a little history repeating.
Wel, there is one little detail. We're on month ~6 out of 36 until the Hallelujah Plan finishes releasing all the planned stuff. And as in the past the summer expansions have been weak (maybe because of icelandic winter wreaking havoc on productivity), likely there won't be much ~awezome~ until Winter 2014, a year from now. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
2523
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:JamDunc wrote:IThey sunk HUGE amounts of resources into it only to discover the players didn't want it Are you kidding me? The player-base didn't want it? Of course they wanted it, and they still do. The reason everyone was pissed was because we never got it. We got one room, not even a multiplayer environment and a character creator that is worth **** all because no one ever sees your character. People were pissed about Incarna because they failed to deliver, greed is good, they removed ship spinning and tried to force CQ on people. The CQ burned out people's graphics cards and wouldn't run on equipment that was well well about the recommended specs. That's why everyone was pissed. Not because they didn't want it. I agree about everything else, by the way. I just cherry picked one of the only statements I disagree with.
...and, there was little beef and much sizzle because they were doing a lot of invisible backend work. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
Arduemont
The State of War.
2370
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 15:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
For a little while now I have thought CCP have been heading for a new Incarnageddon. Maybe not a Rubiconageddon, but not far off. I like the changes we're getting but they are too few. Feels like Eve is being abandoned.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: ...and, there was little beef and much sizzle because they were doing a lot of invisible backend work.
That as well. I think perhaps this was more an issue of transparency. If they had actually said "Hey, we're integrating the CARBON engine during Incarna, so although we are starting the first step to walking in stations, don't expect too much" then we wouldn't have had half the rage kick back. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1485
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 15:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Look at apocrypha thats what you get when they go big on space game play expansion. I am pretty sure this is thr big thin seagull means with her vision. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Arduemont
The State of War.
2370
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 15:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Look at apocrypha thats what you get when they go big on space game play expansion. I am pretty sure this is thr big thin seagull means with her vision.
Bullshit. I'll believe that when I see it. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
JamDunc
Team JK
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 15:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:1. The community gives feedback and CCP listens, in the worst case having to change their entire development schedule and setting a project back by months, costing tons of money in manpower.
This is the problem they are having with Dust at the moment. The Devs told the community they were making changes to some of the rules, but wouldn't say which or what the changes were for you know .....reasons.
Anyway they announce all the changes about a week before they go live, after sinking hundreds or thousands of man hours into development. On the first page of the forum feedback the players dismantle the changes and show how they will be exploited. CCP dev comes back says there is nothing we can do now and they then continue to rebuild the system from scratch over the next few patches.
If they had come to the community during the concept stage they would have learned about how their changes could be exploited and would have saved a huge amount of resources.
To see development done right watch CCP Rise and the ship balancing team. Yes a lot of pointless posts but at the same time overall very little drama on release.
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Broker Agent
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
66
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Agreed, I think CCP are screwing up big time at the moment. |
JamDunc
Team JK
112
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:JamDunc wrote:I don't mean they are about to start making us all space barbies again, I mean the mistakes they made in the past could be about to repeat themselves.
You must be the last EVE Player to not know that IncanaDebacle had nothing, nothing to do with Avatars. At ALL. It was the incomplete nature of CQ, and with only the Minnie CQ available. And the lack of avatar interaction and a sealed Door. That...or a static picture of The Door were the options when docking. Had nothing to do with your barbies themselves. Leave them out of it. derp.
If that was true, then people would not have been screaming to direct resources to Spaceships, they would have demanded more resources to Avatars/CQ/Stations. Unless I remember wrong, there really weren't that many people screaming for less resources to be directed at Ships. |
Arduemont
The State of War.
2370
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 15:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
JamDunc wrote: If that was true, then people would not have been screaming to direct resources to Spaceships, they would have demanded more resources to Avatars/CQ/Stations. Unless I remember wrong, there really weren't that many people screaming for less resources to be directed at Ships.
That's because everyone assumed the 12 months of almost no content they got before Incarna was because CCP had been spending it developing that one CQ. When 90% of their development time had likely gone into the development of the CARBON engine.
Developing an engine is not a small feat. Developing one room for a 3D avatar to walk around is a small feat. That engine by the way, then brought a plethora of awesome changes in Crucible. Like most of the V3 textures, Time Dilation, all the new UIs, the basis for the new Crime watch system, etc etc etc. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Savnire Jacitu
FRONTLiNE GRP.
200
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
The biggest problem with EVE, as far as I see it, is the continued addition of half down elements.
It gets tiring to see these great things promised and then added in at 30-40% complete. Often times I would rather wait a ful year or two for a FULL expansion where FULL features were added into the game. As a gamer my ability to wait is very high (see Half Life 3) and sometimes I think CCP, and a lot of other companies, forget that we can wait.
As the above posts said the incarna **** happened because it was hype and added at a shadow of the hype, while also removing options that some players needed(ship spinning). Had that update to the game come into play with a fully fledged avatar system that involved entering station for player mingling, while keeping it optional, everything would have gone ok. And while yes, it would be some what of a mis direction of resources in some peoples eyes, it would of spiced this game up a little, instead of causing massive riots.
However I must agree here. You would think that they would hold up a bit, fix what needs to be fixed, and then add features. I would rather see an expansion called EVE: We fix it where all the minor things that the player base has wanted done for years now are addressed. Nothing added, nothing remodeled, just fixing all those little things that are slowly being addressed now. I guess in the end I don't know what I'm talking about, I come to play this game and most of the time I enjoy it, yes CCP pisses me off from time to time with there "vision" but in the end every game company does.
Perhaps we are just to critical of them, and it's made them numb to our actual complaints that are mostly surrounded in a sea of sarcasm, bitterness, and trolling. Perhaps I just woke up and now I'm rambling on an internet form enjoying some coffee, and perhaps both sides here are in the wrong. Mmmm.....german chocolate cake coffee <corrupt> |
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Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
698
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
All this rage over POS syphons and highsec POCO's?
Man. And I thought the Republicans were over-reacting..... That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
JamDunc
Team JK
112
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'm not sure. They do seem to have been able to hold onto that 4000 max players online in 24 hours for quite awhile now. Seems like the fall has hit a bottom at least in the short term.
The next few months will be interesting as the PS4 gets into more and more homes.
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marVLs
510
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
JamDunc wrote: They sunk HUGE amounts of resources into it only to discover the players didn't want it (even though they had been hyped by the non information) all that Dev time goes to waste.
You're wrong here, everyone wanted it and want it still but in proper way, not single room slo-mo doll |
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1166
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:JamDunc wrote: If that was true, then people would not have been screaming to direct resources to Spaceships, they would have demanded more resources to Avatars/CQ/Stations. Unless I remember wrong, there really weren't that many people screaming for less resources to be directed at Ships.
That's because everyone assumed the 12 months of almost no content they got before Incarna was because CCP had been spending it developing that one CQ. When 90% of their development time had likely gone into the development of the CARBON engine. Developing an engine is not a small feat. Developing one room for a 3D avatar to walk around is a small feat. That engine by the way, then brought a plethora of awesome changes in Crucible. Like most of the V3 textures, Time Dilation, all the new UIs, the basis for the new Crime watch system, etc etc etc.
Slight correction, it where those infamous 18 month's of almost nothing.
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1485
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 15:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Look at apocrypha thats what you get when they go big on space game play expansion. I am pretty sure this is thr big thin seagull means with her vision. Bullshit. I'll believe that when I see it.
incarana was making an avatar experience from scratch. and they changed thier minds about it soo many times that is why we were forced to play a prototype untill crusable.
now seagulls plans are all for in space stuff...
and thats cool to me.
so call bull all you want... and bring out that crystal ball. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
JamDunc
Team JK
112
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Posted - 2013.11.16 15:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:[quote=JamDunc]That engine by the way, then brought a plethora of awesome changes in Crucible. Like most of the V3 textures, Time Dilation, all the new UIs, the basis for the new Crime watch system, etc etc etc.
Do you have any sources for that? Not trying to put you on the spot, I would be really interested to read about that.
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Sky' Darkstar
Dark Star Operations.
5
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Posted - 2013.11.16 16:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:All this rage over POS syphons and highsec POCO's?
Man. And I thought the Republicans were over-reacting.....
If you like your expansion you can keep it, period. -Sky' |
Arduemont
The State of War.
2375
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 16:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
JamDunc wrote:Arduemont wrote:[quote=JamDunc]That engine by the way, then brought a plethora of awesome changes in Crucible. Like most of the V3 textures, Time Dilation, all the new UIs, the basis for the new Crime watch system, etc etc etc. Do you have any sources for that? Not trying to put you on the spot, I would be really interested to read about that.
Sure, let me see if I can find the CARBON dev blog. I'll edit it into this post when I find it. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Grey Stormshadow
Fistful of Finns Bearf0rce One
1612
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 16:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Talking about vision...
Incarna 49,5% aurum 49,5% vampires 0% content 1% what people were expecting to get
Dust 100% console 0% pc Impressive chat link Totally random players Not playable for most existing eve players Clutter on station name lists
Next thing they make can't fail.
Get |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
14576
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Posted - 2013.11.16 16:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
The whole Incarna mess was initially pretty much down to the lack of perceived content vs the promised content. They promised the earth, and delivered a "micro transaction" shop and a dingy room that turned GPUs into small suns. Then came greed is good, $1000 pants and weeks of questions, especially about "gold ammo and ships" remaining unanswered. In short they delivered a half baked expansion, with no gameplay improvements, that killed hardware and managed to severely insert vulgarity of choice off pretty much everybody in the process. All this while many core elements of the game were broken.
Looking back Incarna was actually a good thing. CCP have since embarked on a massive rework of the serious business of Internet Spaceships, they're a lot more involved with the community and there seems to be a lot of our feedback being involved in parts of the dev process.
The whole Somer thing and other recent cockups, they're an example of Murphys Law, they should have been more open about the ships being handed out to people, especially when it involves gambling, the faintest sniff of favoritism and the devious bunch of miscreants that make up the majority of Eve players.
As for Seagulls vision, I sincerely hope they pull it off because if they do, it could well be epic in scope. I am furnishing this post "as is" I do not provide any warranty whatsoever, whether express, implied, or statutory, including, but not limited to, any relevance or fitness for purpose or any warranty that the contents herein are error-free.
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