Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 23 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tokougawa
Triton Research Illuminati.
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
Forums need a dislike button. |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
274
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
Hannibal Ord wrote: If you nerf Minmatar, then you basically make Amarr THE race to fly, with few exceptions, in almost every ship category in the game.
Amarr is not that good. Scorch is good. They make Pulse Lasers the long range weapon. Make Beams the Long Range Weapons again and Pulses Short Range and that will bring back Beams.
Put Artillery in line with Rails and Beams and you will have balance w/o any race being OP.
|
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
225
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
this is why I was saying you should let the winter patch come and then determine if the other races need work.
if a nerf is needed then its needed, but as a flyer of primarily minm ships, I have to stress they are paper tigers, they can do a lot of DPS, but if you get too ballsy you will be toast in an instant.
DPS is only half the equation.
am I biased, sure. but I'm also in a very good place to see the entire picture and I don't think its as bad as people make it out to be The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
274
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Morganta wrote:this is why I was saying you should let the winter patch come and then determine if the other races need work.
DPS is only half the equation.
I disagree with the first statement, I say they should go a head and just balance the whole damn game before they get lost in establishments and fluff again.
But yeah DPS is such a small part of the equation.
|
Trin Javidan
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
it is not the gun type that is wrong its the ship layout. Actuve tank and passive armour tank recuire more power grip witch those both fail to have (see gallente). Take a look at the 2 best roaming ships for 0.0. The hurricane and the vaga. Its the slot leyout that is the problem, the dual neut cane is over powerd but only because of the 2 neuts and the falloff from those 2 or 3 tracking enhancers.
The shield extenders make it possibel to fit 2 gyro and tracking and 2 neuts,
its the slot layout that makes it overpowerd not the weapon system |
Sakkar Arenith
PIE Inc.
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:28:00 -
[36] - Quote
Hannibal Ord wrote:Oh for gods sake.
A long time ago, Minmatar were a bloody shocking race to fly. The issue was, their weapon system was totally and utterly crap.
During this period of EVE's history it was Gallente that was top dog.
Amarr, somewhat unjustifiably was also thought of as a poor race to fly.
Caldari, with their crappy missile systems, were also a joke.
Over time Amarr ships and lasers were improved - the laser now being the best weapon system in the game as it stands, mounted on often perfect platforms - yes it is even better than projectiles.
Caldari had a missile balancing patch, which brought almost every weapon system into line bar Rockets and Cruise Missiles. Rockets have since been fixed, cruise missiles still have some issues.
Minmatar too, have benefited from a buff to their weapon system. This buff, has IMO, balanced them against lasers and results basically in a mostly equal weapon system. Both lasers and projectiles share similar engagement range - but one favours higher dps, quality of hit and instant ammo switching. The other favours less dps due to falloff...but same range overall, switch-able damage types and immunity to neuts. They are the two sides of the same coin in terms of balance to each other.
Hybrids and Gallente ships in general got shafted and are unbalanced because drones are crap, blasters are crap, rails are crap and active tanking is crap.
I don't really understand all this call for projectile nerf, since they are totally balanced with lasers.
My post doesn't go into my detail about exactly the changes and problems but that is kinda it in a nutshell... and IMO all this shouting about nerfing Minmatar isn't really justified. And before you ask whilst I fly all races, equally the only issues really atm with this game for PVP and indeed PVE are Gallente(and Caldari hybrid platforms). They are downright bullshit compared to the other races, with any luck this upcoming patch will boost them. Amarr, with their laser boats are still just as if not more competitive than their Minmatar counterparts.
If you nerf Minmatar, then you basically make Amarr THE race to fly, with few exceptions, in almost every ship category in the game.
........
wow....
Either this is pure trolling or youre quite ******** when it comes to eve mechanics or history indeed.
The only time amarr was top dog was before the stacking nerf two lifetimes ago. back then the 8 heat sink geddon was the FOTM. Ever since that point amarr has been tagging along...
Scorch, is basically the one and only reason that amarr ships are on par with the other races. ( And yes its imba, but amarr doesnt really have anything else...)
Anyway, rails always sucked. It was supposed tob e an ultra long range weapon in a game that does not allow fights over 30km to realistically happen.
Blasters used to be decent, but the webber nerf, along with the mwd changes made blaster boats very impractical.
However, the AC buff was actually what messed up the balance.
ACs have: - very decent range for 95% of combat situations - Best Tracking - best ammo variety - no cap use - very decent dps (and that is even before you apply the dmg type freedom)
- and they have almost non existent fitting requirements!
As such, Autocannons, not projectiles per se, are imba as hell. Because they simply have no downsides.
Now of course some minmatar ships are the FOTM (.. for five years ina row now..), but a lot of that is due to the fact that they can field a full rack of top tier ACs, along with a tank AND speed.
Ergo:
Nerf ACs by reducing on paper dps and by increasing their fitting requirements significantly |
kxdan
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:32:00 -
[37] - Quote
Make projectiles use cap |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
152
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
Trolls |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
If projectiles were as perfectly balanced with lasers, then why/how can an AC Harbinger compete with a Pulse Harbinger? Or how about projectile Abbaddon's being equal to or better than laser ditto?
Damage type freedom, arty alpha and the insanely lax auto fittings make projectiles the best weapon system bar none .. the only place where they are beat out is at extreme ranges (150km+), but since those are not used any more due to last probe changes ....
CCP ****** it up when they boosted them .. they boosted guns only when they should have applied at least half of the boost to the ships on which they are to be used, result is what we have today. Hurricanes seeing MORE action than Drakes (Drakes have not been in second place for more than a week or a month on the outside since they were introduced) even though one must assume a good chunk are PvE fits killed by ganks... the top10 of ships used in combat reads like a Who's Who of auto-cannon boats.
In short: They were over-buffed quite severely and we need to either increase damage and EHP on everything to match or remove the 'over' part of their buff. |
Joe Skellington
Caldari Elite Force Independence..
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow. -á-á |\_/|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \ |
|
Hannibal Ord
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Hannibal Ord wrote: If you nerf Minmatar, then you basically make Amarr THE race to fly, with few exceptions, in almost every ship category in the game.
Amarr is not that good. Scorch is good. They make Pulse Lasers the long range weapon. Make Beams the Long Range Weapons again and Pulses Short Range and that will bring backLR Weapon Balance. Put Artillery in line with Rails and Beams and you will have balance w/o any race being OP.
In terms of Close range weapons:-
Scorch = Barrage - Same range, different flavour. Balanced. MF = Fusion/EMP etc - same range, different flavour. Balanced.
In terms of long range weapons:-
I would agree that Minmatar has a trick with it's high alpha. For me this gives it flavour. Rails and also lasers could probably do with a buff in this regard and I will agree it is out of balance. This does not mean Minmatar should be nerfed, it means the others should be improved. But remember lasers still have instant ammo switch (which is a HUGE plus) and also quicker ROF.
If you nerf it so they are back in line with the others you basically just undo the changes that made the weapon good as opposed to completely shocking and underpowered, which it was before.
As someone above me has said, wait until hybrids are buffed, see how they do. Then consider nerfing/buffer certain aspects of various weapons and ships. Asking for a nerf to an only recently buffed weapon system, after YEARS of it being underpowered is a stupid stupid thing to be asking for.
Edit:- I will agree completely that the fitting requirements of Projectiles are out of balance, which is the best argument for why they are good. For fitting Gallente and Amarr ships, it is often a big pain in the arse to fit your most hard hitting weapons, and for Minmatar it is not. |
MNagy
Yo-Mama Quixotic Hegemony
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
I could argue the same problem about the drake's tank.
You can solo a c3 and possibly a c4 a hurricane cannot
If you think a minny ship is better - skill it up just as if i think a drake is good for some things - ill skill that up.
Nothing is stopping you. |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
274
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hannibal Ord wrote: In terms of Close range weapons:-
Scorch = Barrage - Same range, different flavour. Balanced. MF = Fusion/EMP etc - same range, different flavour. Balanced.
Bolded is where you stopped making sense.
The Range of Scorch invalidated long range weapons as it is right where fleet range is supposed to be.
Hannibal Ord wrote: In terms of long range weapons:-
I would agree that Minmatar has a trick with it's high alpha. For me this gives it flavour. Rails and also lasers could probably do with a buff in this regard and I will agree it is out of balance. This does not mean Minmatar should be nerfed, it means the others should be improved. But remember lasers still have instant ammo switch (which is a HUGE plus) and also quicker ROF.
Everything you said is pointless because of Scorch (except Artillery Alpha which is OP) compared to Beams and Rails(Better known as the weapons Scorch Replaced).
Fights over 30-40 in a Battleship should involve Long Range Weapons and except for Artillery it does not. Medium Beams and Rails see almost no use ether
Hannibal Ord wrote: As someone above me has said, wait until hybrids are buffed, see how they do. Then consider nerfing/buffer certain aspects of various weapons and ships. Asking for a nerf to an only recently buffed weapon system, after YEARS of it being underpowered is a stupid stupid thing to be asking for.
That Someone was wrong on every point.
Balance comes from looking at everything.
This should not be a Hybrid Buff but a Weapons Rebalance. |
Sakkar Arenith
PIE Inc.
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
MNagy wrote:I could argue the same problem about the drake's tank.
You can solo a c3 and possibly a c4 a hurricane cannot
If you think a minny ship is better - skill it up just as if i think a drake is good for some things - ill skill that up.
Nothing is stopping you.
Yes, and the drake needs a nerf too.
The key word is ******* BALANCE! If one ship or races is used disproportionally often, then guess what, something is WRONG, and needs ADJUSTMENT |
Zagam
Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension
216
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:45:00 -
[45] - Quote
5nake pliskan wrote:Zagam wrote:[quote=Zarnak Wulf]
You're really pressing this troll for a character not even 2 years old, talking about "Eve on hard mode" and such.
yeah, about that 2 years.... its somewhat longer you n00b *that's 2 years older than you* Actually, I mis-stated the OP's age... he was created 2007.04.21. As for him being older, I was created 2006.02.01.
Also, the intent of my post was not to get into an e-peen contest, but rather call the OP out for trolling (I'll have to upgrade their troll score to 4/10, for the sheer number of posts and real discussion).
|
Zagam
Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension
216
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:47:00 -
[46] - Quote
I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!
Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.
This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension. |
MNagy
Yo-Mama Quixotic Hegemony
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:49:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sakkar Arenith wrote:MNagy wrote:I could argue the same problem about the drake's tank.
You can solo a c3 and possibly a c4 a hurricane cannot
If you think a minny ship is better - skill it up just as if i think a drake is good for some things - ill skill that up.
Nothing is stopping you. Yes, and the drake needs a nerf too. The key word is ******* BALANCE! If one ship or races is used disproportionally often, then guess what, something is WRONG, and needs ADJUSTMENT
For every adjustment made - I think it will almost be 'impossible' to get an inbalance somewhere else. I accept the imbalance knowing I can skill up what I need to skill up.
I agree with you about the "balance" problem, but I don't think its as a simple solution as made out to be. The tweaking on ships would take forever imo. |
Hannibal Ord
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Hannibal Ord wrote: In terms of Close range weapons:-
Scorch = Barrage - Same range, different flavour. Balanced. MF = Fusion/EMP etc - same range, different flavour. Balanced.
Bolded is where you stopped making sense. The Range of Scorch invalidated long range weapons as it is right where fleet range is supposed to be.
Barrage and Scorch both share a very very similar range improvement.
An Maelstrom with 800's gets 6+36 with Barrage. An Abaddon with Mega Pulse gets 45+10 with Scorch.
No they are not the same exact ranges - but very similar to each other overall. As opposed to a Rokh or Hype loading Null. So basically you are talking out of your arse.
You see a similar theme with say, an AC Vaga and a Pulse Zealot. If pulse lasers invalidate long range weapons, then AC's also do a similar thing. And then you get to the ups and downs of both weapon systems which becomes situational in how they balance each other out. |
Twisted Alice
Twisted Universe
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
Joe Skellington wrote:These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow.
Funny enough I was just thinking the same a short while before I read your post. |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
147
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
ok a question , ... why would there be a need to nerf projectile turrets
Granted they are good compared to hybrids and energy turrets they only drawback i see if that they are minmatar and minmatar tend to be a bit more skill intensive than the other races or am i wrong .? plus they usually tend to run away from my curse and don't anyone dare to touch my scorch I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
|
Lord Ryan
True Xero
71
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:00:00 -
[51] - Quote
My Omen sucks, nerf Cane! Blaster are broke nerf Autocannons! Please CCP make all ship suck equally so I can go back to WOW.
I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
275
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Hannibal Ord wrote: Barrage and Scorch both share a very very similar range improvement.
An Maelstrom with 800's gets 6+36 with Barrage. An Abaddon with Mega Pulse gets 45+10 with Scorch.
No they are not the same exact ranges - but very similar to each other overall. As opposed to a Rokh or Hype loading Null. So basically you are talking out of your arse.
You seem to beleive I was talking about something besides Scorch invalidating non Arty long range Weapons. You should stop thinking that.
The fact that any short range weapons system can get a 45km Optimal is a mistake. Barrage looses to much in falloff to be an effective fleet tool..
Hannibal Ord wrote: You see a similar theme with say, an AC Vaga and a Pulse Zealot. If pulse lasers invalidate long range weapons, then AC's also do a similar thing. And then you get to the ups and downs of both weapon systems which becomes situational in how they balance each other out.
Autocannons do not invalidate long range weapons because they deal way less DPS at range. They do however when combined with a good medium range and high speed screw over short range ships.
|
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
275
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
pussnheels wrote: minmatar tend to be a bit more skill intensive than the other races or am i wrong .? Your wrong. They require about as much as any other race. 1400mm Arty can be used in Fleets at Lvl 4 while you need T2 for Scorch. Missiles are not a priority because there best ships do not use them. You don't need to train Armor early on because Shield is there real strength. Base Speed means you actually need to train less Nav skills in the beginning. Everything else(Support, Drones, ect) are on par with other races. This myth that Minmatar is harder to train is just that. I don't get why it is so popular.
pussnheels wrote: and don't anyone dare to touch my scorch
L2Beam |
Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:12:00 -
[54] - Quote
I don't think Minmatar is overpowered by any degree as a lineup.
Where Minmatar shine (and are used most it seems) is in solo-PvP. It's rare in my experiences to see non-claoky solo-PvP'er roaming in anything other than either Hurricaine or Vagabond.
As they say, if you think something is OP, train it. Or try and build your own races ships to do it.
I prefer not to nerf stuff....well, SuperCaps go gfy, but other than them. |
Hannibal Ord
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:12:00 -
[55] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Hannibal Ord wrote: Barrage and Scorch both share a very very similar range improvement.
An Maelstrom with 800's gets 6+36 with Barrage. An Abaddon with Mega Pulse gets 45+10 with Scorch.
No they are not the same exact ranges - but very similar to each other overall. As opposed to a Rokh or Hype loading Null. So basically you are talking out of your arse.
You seem to beleive I was talking about something besides Scorch invalidating non Arty long range Weapons. You should stop thinking that. The fact that any short range weapons system can get a 45km Optimal is a mistake. Barrage looses to much in falloff to be an effective fleet tool.. Hannibal Ord wrote: You see a similar theme with say, an AC Vaga and a Pulse Zealot. If pulse lasers invalidate long range weapons, then AC's also do a similar thing. And then you get to the ups and downs of both weapon systems which becomes situational in how they balance each other out.
Autocannons do not invalidate long range weapons because they deal way less DPS at range. They do however when combined with a good medium range and high speed screw over short range ships.
If that's what you believe then why are you arguing against me when I said Amarr where overall better than Minmatar and I don't agree with nerfing projectiles. Basically you are asking for a Scorch nerf, when it shares such similar properties to Barrage. I will agree Beams need something to balance themselves against Arties, but if you nerf Scorch well we should also nerf Barrage. If we make everything nice and close range that's fine, and blasters will just then **** all over both weapon systems again. When I look at Long range weapons I look at 100km + for mediums and 150+ for large weapons. You seem to think that anything above point range it long range. |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
275
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
Alistair Cononach wrote: Where Minmatar shine (and are used most it seems) is in solo-PvP. It's rare in my experiences to see non-claoky solo-PvP'er roaming in anything other than either Hurricaine or Vagabond.
Minmatar Fleet PvP is almost on par with Amarr while ruling Solo. Maelstroms, Tempests, Muniins and Arty Canes are all great fleet choices backed by excellent Minmatar Recons and Logistics.
Minmatar can do it all. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:20:00 -
[57] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode.
I fly gallente and matar.
Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff.
|
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
275
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
Hannibal Ord wrote: When I look at Long range weapons I look at 100km + for mediums and 150+ for large weapons. You seem to think that anything above point range it long range.
35-60 is where most fights get maneuvered to. Warp to/Probe Mechanics make it to hard to keep a fight out at those ranges and the enemy from escaping.
Hannibal Ord wrote: Basically you are asking for a Scorch nerf, when it shares such similar properties to Barrage. I will agree Beams need something to balance themselves against Arties, but if you nerf Scorch well we should also nerf Barrage. If we make everything nice and close range that's fine, and blasters will just then **** all over both weapon systems again.
Never said nerf Barrage directly. I would however say Nerf Large Barrage and Large Scorch and keep medium Scorch and Barrage the way they are.
That along with buffing Medium LR Weapons would great in my books. |
Hannibal Ord
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
29
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode. I fly gallente and matar. Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff.
You will find similar pleasure flying Amarr then. Not to the same extent, but the flexibility is also there. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 16:33:00 -
[60] - Quote
Hannibal Ord wrote:Onictus wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode. I fly gallente and matar. Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff. You will find similar pleasure flying Amarr then. Not to the same extent, but the flexibility is also there.
Honestly, I'm still a rookie and trying to train up Matar and Gallente has my training queue fill for the forseeable future.
However, I do occasionally feel Kamikazi, so I have a hangar full of blaster boats, SOMEONE is going to get it, the ship may or may no (likely not) come back, but I'ma blast something. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 23 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |