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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 19:23:00 -
[151] - Quote
Joe Skellington wrote:These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow.
And just like wow forums has more and more trolls and kids posting "nothing"
Sure. |
Kelly Elongur
Republic University Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 21:48:00 -
[152] - Quote
Even winmatar's cloaky indy is on top of the rest for he has 2 high slots instead of one 1 as the others, which is mandatory in w-space (to fit a probe launcher). |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 00:29:00 -
[153] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:Mfume Apocal - 1) you are a 2010 character (or post with your main), 2) you spend too much time in EFT and don't give enough thought to larger strategic concerns. On paper it may seem balanced (its not) but reality and what you see out there speak volumes. Nice try though.
"you're wrong because you've been playing this game for 18 months!" Seriously, is that the best you have?
WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane WTB 700 DPS at 70km Maelstrom
Quote:Minmatar are not the hard-mode race, they are the I-win race.
I never said Minmatar was hard-mode, because that would be silly. Hard mode is Gallente.
Quote:Then you run off to things about fleets and how KBs are not an indicatior of anything and so on. . .
Your boy Veshta claimed that arty-abaddons were better than Hellcats, not me. I can't imagine what kind of cripple fight would lead one to believe that, but I assure you, from hands-on, non-EFT experience it's not true. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 01:31:00 -
[154] - Quote
I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were. |
ImmutableDark
We Hit Women
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 05:10:00 -
[155] - Quote
The only people I see crying are the Minmatar idiots that want to keep their shiny overpowered win boats. |
ImmutableDark
We Hit Women
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 05:13:00 -
[156] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:IDGI. The standard response's are:
1. Minmatar is fine, look at the drake. Actually, look at heavy missiles in general, but this is beside the point. Let me know when small, medium, and large missiles are all as great as their projectile counterparts.
2. Minmatar is fine, scorch pwns us! As it should, but the problem is you can engage or be engaged by any amarrian ship and have more than enough speed and agility to get out if you're loosing.
Projectiles are clearly out of line given the mobility of minmatar ships. Their only true weakness is sensor strength and I think most of us realize that is a problem.
Really take a look at the sensor strength of the Caldari counterparts to Minmatar ships and notice how there is basically no significant difference YET they still whinge about it. |
SOLMEN
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 05:28:00 -
[157] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: Look at the total package: Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. Actually, that would be the Angels.
Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. I think you are confusing them with AmarrGǪ Amarr frigs with dronesGǪ (Off the top of my head) T2. Sentinel I canGÇÖt think of any Minmatar ones. Amarr Cruisers Drone boats... Pilgrim, Curse, and their T1 counterpart can all field flights of mediums with room to spare. MinmatarGǪ. Can only field one flight of mediums and maybe a light if they are lucky. BS, all the races have at least 1 BS that can field a full flight of heavies. Typhoon and Armageddon being similar in this respect but the Typhoon suffers from a split weapon system + being an armor tanker so itGÇÖs either decent damage or decent tank.
They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. They also have terrible optimal. So while their range may equal that of AmarrGÇÖs, their damage is at about 30% while Amarr is still hitting at 100%. Learn the game mechanics.
And no one should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have. Minmatar doesnGÇÖt. If you learn ANY of the races weaknesses, you can defeat them with any other race. However, for some people itGÇÖs easier to cry GÇ£nerfGÇ¥ than to learn how to adapt and overcome situations.
DIAF (in game) you ******* tard.
Learn to play the game.
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Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
23
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 05:37:00 -
[158] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Zagam wrote:I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!
Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.
This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension. A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention. Strange, 'cane fleets are RARE, drake fleets are more common. Clearly missiles must need nerfing by your reasoning, they are far more numerous than 'cane fleets. Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point. There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off. In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero. But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?
Huh? Did you just say cane fleets are 'rare'? Oh really?
Take a trip out to null and have a look around at what's flying by. You will find it's mainly minmatar or amarr ships with the odd drake fleet floating around. Apart from the odd niche ships, you will rarely see Gallente or any blaster ships above frigate.
Having said that, I don't agree with nerfing projectiles. I think they are fine as they are. Lazers are also pretty good (yes, I know...because of scorch )
Blasters (and Gallente ships in general) need a lot of attention and probably more than CCP have currently proposed.
How about wait and see before we whine at CCP to swing the nerfbat. You know that's never good when they swing that.....
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 06:13:00 -
[159] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:If projectiles were as perfectly balanced with lasers, then why/how can an AC Harbinger compete with a Pulse Harbinger?
This is because of mobility and fittings, not damage. As to the OP: I'm -1 to them nerfing before they finish panning out the Hybrid boosts. I don't want to see projectiles turned into the new damps (remember: nerf damps, boost ECM - all in the name of balancing the whole game at a whack).
-Liang |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 06:15:00 -
[160] - Quote
Go lose another Dramiel. You are hardcore addicted to FOTM. And your tears are delicious. |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 06:23:00 -
[161] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were.
I remember what the original issues were, and I remember giving up on the thread where it was being discussed because it was just too noisy for reasonable conversation. I also remember that my preferred solution was a mild nerf to lasers instead of a boost to projectiles. At any rate, they attempted to boost projectiles (As a weapon platform) to be equal to lasers (as a weapon platform). IMO, they succeeded - but what is most of the time overlooked is that Pulse ships (as a whole) are mildly inferior to AC ships.
I think when you take everything into account, they probably should have simultaneously purified damage types as well as added falloff by tier. The Hybrid changes look unexciting, but I'd hesitate to go nerfing the crap out of Projectiles until the changes from that are pretty well panned out.
-Liang
PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :) |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 06:30:00 -
[162] - Quote
It's on page 2 of ships and modules. I'm on my cell phone at work and can't link :). Good to see you again. I did a double take. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 06:34:00 -
[163] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:It's on page 2 of ships and modules. I'm on my cell phone at work and can't link :). Good to see you again. I did a double take.
Got it. Thanks! Good to see you're up and about - though I'm mildly surprised to see you suggesting a Projectile nerf. :)
-Liang |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 07:14:00 -
[164] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: You are hardcore addicted to FOTM. And your tears are delicious.
I don't actually fly many AC boats. Does this apply to me as well?
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SOLMEN
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 07:16:00 -
[165] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Go lose another Dramiel. You are hardcore addicted to FOTM. And your tears are delicious.
Dramiel? I think you may have an issue with your ability to use your eyes. |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 07:20:00 -
[166] - Quote
Matar are OP? Maybe. Just maybe. Consider. The intent was for them to be the most skill-intensive and rewarding ships available. This I think is the one thing CCP got right. 95% perfect skill to fly alll but 1 Matar Bs still means you are about a year from building a great Phoon. Will a minnie, pound for pound and ounce for ounce out perform every other ship in it's class? Most of the time. It will take more training to get that result? Yes. This, in game theory, is what you would call balance.... |
Hannibal Ord
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
43
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 09:22:00 -
[167] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were. I remember what the original issues were, and I remember giving up on the thread where it was being discussed because it was just too noisy for reasonable conversation. I also remember that my preferred solution was a mild nerf to lasers instead of a boost to projectiles. At any rate, they attempted to boost projectiles (As a weapon platform) to be equal to lasers (as a weapon platform). IMO, they succeeded - but what is most of the time overlooked is that Pulse ships (as a whole) are mildly inferior to AC ships. I think when you take everything into account, they probably should have simultaneously purified damage types as well as added falloff by tier. The Hybrid changes look unexciting, but I'd hesitate to go nerfing the crap out of Projectiles until the changes from that are pretty well panned out. -Liang PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :)
HOLY **** LIANG IS BACK! |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 11:01:00 -
[168] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were. I remember what the original issues were, and I remember giving up on the thread where it was being discussed because it was just too noisy for reasonable conversation. I also remember that my preferred solution was a mild nerf to lasers instead of a boost to projectiles. At any rate, they attempted to boost projectiles (As a weapon platform) to be equal to lasers (as a weapon platform). IMO, they succeeded - but what is most of the time overlooked is that Pulse ships (as a whole) are mildly inferior to AC ships. I think when you take everything into account, they probably should have simultaneously purified damage types as well as added falloff by tier. The Hybrid changes look unexciting, but I'd hesitate to go nerfing the crap out of Projectiles until the changes from that are pretty well panned out. -Liang PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :) Welcome back, oh king of Ships and Modules! Good to see you, man. |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 11:19:00 -
[169] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were. Good, I used to fly Ruppies and Rifters in FW before the projectile buff. It was simply hopeless. All those who could, flew Amarr or Gallente due to Minnie tank and dps being weak.
Even today, in FW, whenever there is a medium (for FW sizes) gang fight of say 30 vs 30, it's Amarr BS that are most used and get the most damage and survive the longest due to Guardians.
In other words, no. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 11:59:00 -
[170] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
-Liang
PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :)
Welcome back home
This sign missed me
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Arazel Chainfire
Fury Lords Apex United
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:32:00 -
[171] - Quote
First, this:
Second: I'm in favor of both a laser and a projectile nerf.
My favored projectile nerf is to reduce T2 tracking computers/tracking enhancers falloff bonus to 20% or maybe 25% instead of 30%, and then leave it at that. That means that if I want to orbit at 20km in a cane, I should be using barrage, instead of sticking to EMP. As it is right now, it makes little difference either way.
My favored laser nerf is to reduce scorch damage to the same as either standard, or navy standard. As it is now, I use (navy) multifrequency, rarely x-ray, and then scorch. I never, ever use anything in between. This would make it so that there is sometimes a point in carrying something other than multi and scorch, which at the moment there isn't. It would also reduce the dps of pulse lasers to the point where if you are consistantly trying to hammer people from beyond about 20km on a non-optimal bonused hull, you would probably be better off using lasers.
These two nerfs combined would keep the 2 weapon systems pretty balanced combared to each other, and making there be some poing of using longrange weapons again, which 90% of the time there isn't anymore. It would also start to bring them back closer to the range that blasters operate in, so that way hopefully with the upcoming hybrid buffs they will actually be able to catch their targets and damage them, provided that you have good piloting skills.
As for longrange weapons... lets see how the hybrid buff turns out before addressing anything more there.
-Arazel |
Wacktopia
Sicarius. Legion of The Damned.
25
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:46:00 -
[172] - Quote
Zagam wrote:I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!
Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.
This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.
Except the green pillows would be so heavy that they could not catch the people with red pillows. Also the people with yellow pillows could set the people with blue pillows on fire except the people with blue pillows would have a magic wand that made all the yellow pillows miss. The people with red pillows would have sharp things in them too so they hurt a lot more so now everyone wants a red pillow but the green pillows still cannot catch them. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
57
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:49:00 -
[173] - Quote
JitaJane wrote:Matar are OP? Maybe. Just maybe. Consider. The intent was for them to be the most skill-intensive and rewarding ships available. This I think is the one thing CCP got right. 95% perfect skill to fly alll but 1 Matar Bs still means you are about a year from building a great Phoon. Will a minnie, pound for pound and ounce for ounce out perform every other ship in it's class? Most of the time. It will take more training to get that result? Yes. This, in game theory, is what you would call balance....
Honestly, this is nonsense. The most skill point-intensive race is Caldari.
Caldari have three lines of ships, each using a different and mutually non-SP-supporting weapon - hybrids, missiles and ECM. There are no shared support skills between hybrids and missiles, and the missile skill tree is longer than any single turret weapon tree.
What do Minmatar have? Armour and shield, sure, but competence in both is not a large SP sink, and your average Scorpion needs to be able to armour tank when needed. Projectiles, that's equal to hybrids as a SP-sink. No great focus on drones for either race. No real purpose in specialising in target painting, unlike ECM. Minmatar have only two non-SB ship that use missiles to any extent. On one of these (Cyclone), they're very much an optional extra, and the Typhoon works fine with projectiles. |
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:54:00 -
[174] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were. I remember what the original issues were, and I remember giving up on the thread where it was being discussed because it was just too noisy for reasonable conversation. I also remember that my preferred solution was a mild nerf to lasers instead of a boost to projectiles. At any rate, they attempted to boost projectiles (As a weapon platform) to be equal to lasers (as a weapon platform). IMO, they succeeded - but what is most of the time overlooked is that Pulse ships (as a whole) are mildly inferior to AC ships. I think when you take everything into account, they probably should have simultaneously purified damage types as well as added falloff by tier. The Hybrid changes look unexciting, but I'd hesitate to go nerfing the crap out of Projectiles until the changes from that are pretty well panned out. -Liang PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :)
Then you will remember that the reason for the TE buff was not because ACs lacked tracking, but because TDs got falloff added to the optimal range script. The argument was that there was not hard counter to TDs and because TDs were so good now - everyone would use them in their spare mids like ECM used to be. An awful argument at best.
And yes - you see the problem when ACs are married to the ships.
And yes - I don't want to see projectiles nurfed to oblivion. Just take the edge off. Mainly 1) revert to the old ammo model - or at least tweak it so that they can't focus damage types. Reduce the flat dps increase from the previous 9% to something more reasonable, and remove the TE falloff bonus entirely.
and welcome back. while I don't agree with everything you say, its nice to have some reason back. |
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 14:26:00 -
[175] - Quote
Errr what damage buff to Minmatar Projectiles?
Fusion and Phased Plasma got buffed to be EQUAL in damage to EMP since they had the same disadvantages, the ammo was also made a bit smaller. Compared to using EMP previously there was no damage boost.
Because AC optimal was the smallest and the Arty optimal is the smallest of the long range guns, TEs + TCs prior to the change were practically pointless, they basically just added a bit of tracking and that was it. Now they are actually useful and can just about do some damage at long range, however its normally down to about 10-20% max DPS and ONLY if you half gimp yourself in other aspects to do this. Why are there complaints that ACs/Arties can finally increase their range via modules? Compared to a equivilent laser with the same number of TEs/TCs the Laser is going to always be more effective at range and far more easily able to switch crystals to keep max DPS on the target.
Minmatar have massive problems as soon as you remove their ability to move quickly, look at the Vaga's stats for example, its got 40k EHP with maxed skills and a good fit and only putting out a MAXIMUM of 500dps at point blank range, thats when it HASN'T been fitted out for max speed. The faster Vagas you see are often fit down to 25k EHP tank, less than some T1 cruisers. They maybe be harder to catch but it takes much less to drive them off, a single drake is a match for a vaga that tries it's luck, a zealot would however do nasty things to the same drake, particually if its AB fit.
Different ships for different roles, minmatar do work best in the skirmish, hard to catch but crap face to face role, thats how their ships are designed. Amarr ships are the slower, work better in massive fleets and combine fire better.
If we follow through with your suggestions then you have to nerf Minmatar for smaller gangs and buff them in bigger gangs, so basically make all the races an exact copy of the Amarr....... would that make you happy? Because thats the only way to make all the races balanced equally in all areas. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
323
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:07:00 -
[176] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote: Minmatar have massive problems as soon as you remove their ability to move quickly, look at the Vaga's stats for example, its got 40k EHP with maxed skills and a good fit and only putting out a MAXIMUM of 500dps at point blank range, thats when it HASN'T been fitted out for max speed. The faster Vagas you see are often fit down to 25k EHP tank, less than some T1 cruisers. They maybe be harder to catch but it takes much less to drive them off, a single drake is a match for a vaga that tries it's luck, a zealot would however do nasty things to the same drake, particually if its AB fit.
1. Drakes own Zealots. 2. Muninn is the long range HAC not the Vaga, 3. All skirmish ships are in trouble when they loose speed not just Minmatar. Vaga is one of the top skirmish ships. 4. Take away the Zealots 10% Range Bonus and it would suck as well. 5. Vega is probably the most extreme and over the top example since it is basically a Cruiser Frig.
Rhinanna wrote: If we follow through with your suggestions then you have to nerf Minmatar for smaller gangs and buff them in bigger gangs, so basically make all the races an exact copy of the Amarr....... would that make you happy? Because thats the only way to make all the races balanced equally in all areas.
Do you play the game?
1400mm Maelstrom 1400mm Tempest Nano Tempest 720mm Nano Hurricane Arty Muninn Scimitar Rapier Huginn Hound Sabre Broadsword
Vs
Caldari
Drake Tengu Cerberus Manticore
and Gallente
No Example Available
Poor Minmatar, they are really, really suffering in the fleet department.
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:15:00 -
[177] - Quote
OH NO vaga cant solo a drake := lets boost matar !!! |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
323
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:18:00 -
[178] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:OH NO vaga cant solo a drake := lets boost matar !!! Fun Fact. 5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake while 5 Drakes can watch a Vagabond escape.
Everyone forgets that in balance discussions.
It has proved to be important. |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
123
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:22:00 -
[179] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: 1400mm Maelstrom 1400mm Tempest Nano Tempest 720mm Nano Hurricane Arty Muninn Scimitar Rapier Huginn Hound Sabre Broadsword
Vs
Caldari
HAM Drake HML Drake Nano Drake HAM Tengu 100MN AB Tengu Falcon Rook Basilisk Cerberus Manticore Scorpion
Fixed.
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Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
323
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:28:00 -
[180] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Quote: Caldari
HAM Drake HML Drake Nano Drake HAM Tengu 100MN AB Tengu Falcon Rook Basilisk Cerberus Manticore Scorpion
Fixed. HAM Tengu, 2x Nano Drake and HAM Drake are small gang ships not blob boats. The Basilisk is a lesser Scimitar for when you don't have a Scimitar. The Falcon/Rook are not often big fleet assets. Not enough to be worth mentioning. The 1600mm Plate Scorp is one I forgot about.
Also you forgot the Vulture which means I did. |
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