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Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2011.11.03 16:13:00 -
[181] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote: 1400mm Maelstrom 1400mm Tempest Nano Tempest 720mm Nano Hurricane Arty Muninn Scimitar Rapier Huginn Hound Sabre Broadsword
Vs
Caldari
HAM Drake HML Drake Nano Drake HAM Tengu 100MN AB Tengu Falcon Rook Basilisk Cerberus Manticore Scorpion
Fixed.
Looks like someone is desperately grabbing at straws.
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Izuru Hishido
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Violent Society
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 18:47:00 -
[182] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Too bad. I prefer fun and balanced to the "I win" button.
I counter your 'too bad' with a 'too ******* bad.' Suck it up and deal with it, there are plenty of counters. If you learned how to play the game, you'd know what they were. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
30
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:06:00 -
[183] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:[quote=Liang Nuren] Then you will remember that the reason for the TE buff was not because ACs lacked tracking or needed more falloff, but because TDs got falloff added to the optimal range script. The argument was that there was no hard counter to TDs and because TDs were so good now - everyone would use them in their spare mids like ECM used to be. An awful argument at best. By the same logic, there should be a low slot mod that increases optimal. . .and that would buff pulse even more.
Comments: - There is a low slot mod that increases optimal... - The TD change happened well in advance of the Projectile changes. At the time of the Projectile changes, we were already seeing TDs becoming straight up hard counters to anything Minmatar. Claiming the argument is "awful at best" is simply deluding yourself with selective memory. :)
Quote: And yes - you see the problem when ACs are married to the ships. As I see it, the problem is that when taken as a whole, ACs are simply too good right now. They were ******, that is why they had all those advantages.
And yes - I don't want to see projectiles nurfed to oblivion. Just take the edge off. Mainly 1) revert to the old ammo model - or at least tweak it so that they can't focus damage types. And give that ammo change to hybrid ammo. Reduce the flat dps increase from the previous 9% to something more reasonable, and remove the TE falloff bonus entirely.
Comments: - Your changes are anything but "taking the edge off". A 9% damage penalty and removing falloff from TEs is totally ridiculous. - If you're going to nerf projectiles in any significant fashion, it'll be a good idea to nerf lasers as well. The two really are that close, and I find myself usually preferring lasers in situations where there exists a reasonable base ship to fit them on. - Suggesting a nerf to something and then a boost to something else in the same patch tends to create FOTM chasing - which IMO is bad for the game. I've never seen this work in all the years I've played MMOs. It really is best to wait until that hybrid buff settles down before suggesting any concrete nerf to projectiles.
Quote:and welcome back. while I don't agree with everything you say, its nice to have some reason back.
Thanks :)
-Liang
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Liang Nuren
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30
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:13:00 -
[184] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: Fun Fact. 5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake while 5 Drakes can watch a Vagabond escape.
Everyone forgets that in balance discussions.
It has proved to be important.
Wat.
Alara IonStorm wrote: HAM Tengu, 2x Nano Drake and HAM Drake are small gang ships not blob boats. The Basilisk is a lesser Scimitar for when you don't have a Scimitar. The Falcon/Rook are not often big fleet assets. Not enough to be worth mentioning. The 1600mm Plate Scorp is one I forgot about.
Also you forgot the Vulture which means I did.
The Basilisk is almost wholesale superior to the Scimitar for small gang warfare. Large gangs too, I guess. Only time I'd go with a Scim is when I'm going into a mission/plex and need to keep up to the tackler as he crosses 70km to the next gate (repeatedly).
-Liang |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
326
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:19:00 -
[185] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Wat.
-Liang
The Person said take away Minmatars speed and there not that good as to show projectiles are not OP. But speed is important because while a Vagabond can not solo a Drake a group can catch one easy enough. A group of Drakes on the other hand get nothing more then to watch a Vagabond leave.
The difference is pretty big. Yet people tend look at the issue as if they are talking only about 1v1's when it comes to balancing.
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Liang Nuren
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30
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:24:00 -
[186] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Wat.
-Liang
The Person said take away Minmatars speed and there not that good as to show projectiles are not OP. But speed is important because while a Vagabond can not solo a Drake a group can catch one easy enough. A group of Drakes on the other hand get nothing more then to watch a Vagabond leave. The difference is pretty big. Yet people tend look at the issue as if they are talking only about 1v1's when it comes to balancing.
I'll have to remember that I got solo killed next time I die to five Vagabonds.
-Liang |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
326
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:26:00 -
[187] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: I'll have to remember that I got solo killed next time I die to five Vagabonds.
-Liang
What are you talking about?
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Liang Nuren
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31
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:28:00 -
[188] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: I'll have to remember that I got solo killed next time I die to five Vagabonds.
-Liang
What are you talking about?
I even underlined it in your post before responding. "5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake". That's not soloing a Drake.
-Liang |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
326
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:30:00 -
[189] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: I even underlined it in your post before responding. "5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake". That's not soloing a Drake.
-Liang
Stop getting caught up over typo's.
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Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:32:00 -
[190] - Quote
Point: Projectiles have too many perks and not enough drawbacks.
Counterpoints: Drakes! Scorch!
Effectiveness of counterpoints: 2/10
Considering the changes under development are for -hybrids- and (as far as any reasonable person can tell) those changes are not going to do much for hyrbids in comparison to projectiles. I'd say we're getting off topic arguing over drakes (nerf them, nerf heavy missiles too, who the hell cares?). |
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Liang Nuren
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31
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:32:00 -
[191] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: I even underlined it in your post before responding. "5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake". That's not soloing a Drake.
-Liang
Stop getting caught up over typo's.
Lighten up. It wasn't meant to be a big deal, but you're making it one.
-Liang |
Izuru Hishido
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Violent Society
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:34:00 -
[192] - Quote
What concerns me the most about this is that it took five vagabonds to kill the drake. Must be some really god-awful pilots in those vagas. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:37:00 -
[193] - Quote
****** liang is back defending the imba op matars again... |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
327
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:39:00 -
[194] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Lighten up. It wasn't meant to be a big deal, but you're making it one.
-Liang
Ok then, I will post that it is your fault and we will see if your forum OCD overrides your lighten up sentiment making you need the last word.
Ahem: It is in fact you who needs to lighten up.
Now to see if all this time away from the forum has changed Liang.
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Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:42:00 -
[195] - Quote
:pokerface:
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Vmir Gallahasen
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:47:00 -
[196] - Quote
Once upon a time, MWDs had a -25% shield penalty in addition to their -25% capacitor capacity penalty. Maybe that should be put back in.
It'd make nanokiting stuff much easier to kill if you caught it close range. Nanodrakes would be worse too, but they've already got huge range so it's unnecessary for them to be good at controlling it like the Minnies. Gallente and Amarr wouldn't be hit very hard at all except in specific circumstances (shield hype, brutix come to mind).
Then Minmatar will be much more fragile if they decide to go for close range with a shield gank fit, and have an interesting situation in an armor fit--not as good at tank or dps as Gallente in general due to fewer lows, but more utility for things like another web, TD, eccm, etc in extra mids.
Lasers were rubbish back when MWDs had the penalty though; a shield penalty might end up being a stealth buff to those already insane pulse using ships... |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
33
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:54:00 -
[197] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:****** liang is back defending the imba op matars again...
Nah, I'm just saying that suggesting specific hybrid changes is really premature until the hybrid changes settle down - because that 's the biggest source of balancing QQ. And even then, if you're going to nerf projectiles you should probably nerf lasers too... which means there's a lot of instability introduced into the game.
It's probably best to go with the suggested path all along: make Hybrids actually useful and see where things are after that. Remember that CCP had a choice: nerf lasers (and probably torps) or boost everything else. They chose to boost projectiles to laser levels (And IMO did a fairly good job of it), but they left the job half finished by only boosting projectiles.
Hopefully they adequately finish the job here.
-Liang |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
78
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Posted - 2011.11.03 19:57:00 -
[198] - Quote
Someone on page 3 or 4 seriously argued that Barrage and Scorch have the same ranges. Since it, perhaps, didn't get the point across the first time:
WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane. WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.
I don't know how you guys could use an autocannon ship at any sort of range and say with a straight face, "Barrage is about as good as Scorch." |
Izuru Hishido
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Violent Society
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:01:00 -
[199] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Someone on page 3 or 4 seriously argued that Barrage and Scorch have the same ranges. Since it, perhaps, didn't get the point across the first time:
WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane. WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.
I don't know how you guys could use an autocannon ship at any sort of range and say with a straight face, "Barrage is about as good as Scorch."
Anyone else want to agree with me that Mfume is boss for this post? |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
328
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:20:00 -
[200] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote: WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane. WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.
Artillery can do that, Barrage is more for close kiting which Cap Use and Speed are a greater factor.
Hurricane: 17Opt 33FO, 479 Gun DPS, 4000 Alpha, 61000 EHP, 1311m/s, 0 Cap Use and 3 Different Dmg Types Maelstrom: 30Opt 44FO, 682DPS, 11000 Alpha, 130000 EHP, 835m/s, 0 Cap Use and 3 Different Dmg Types
Well I say that those Artillery Ships are just damn to good. So Projectiles meet your dream stats almost dead on with even a few improvements just not Barrage.
Just so you know, I happen ton think Large Scorch needs a Nerf pretty badly. It makes Beams and Rails Pointless and as you can see above so does Artillery. |
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
78
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:36:00 -
[201] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Why are you only looking at DPS, Alpha and Dam type are just as important.
DPS > Alpha. Alphafleets only own Hellcats when they outnumber them more than 3 to 1. Even with a gross advantage in numbers, in the time that an alphafleet would kill 10 ships, pulse fleets would kill 30. In my experience, ofc. (taking Gem, drone regions invasion, clearing out Venal, the DRF counter-invasion, etc.)
You are free to provide links to all the alphafleet vs. hellcat fights you've experienced in RvB however. I'd be interested in see how it plays out there.
Quote:Well I say that those Artillery Ships are just damn to good. So Projectiles meet your dream stats almost dead on with even a few improvements just not Barrage.
In literally every fight artillery BS have run into equal numbers of pulse BS (Hellcats or Panic Geddons) the artillery ships lost. And to get my "dream stats" for alpha damage I have to put my artillery boat well within Scorch optimal. This is not just Scorch L either, but Scorch M as well.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
36
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:41:00 -
[202] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote: WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane. WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.
Artillery can do that, Barrage is more for close kiting in which Cap Use and Speed are a greater factor. Kiting Amarr Ships tend to be run down or run out of Cap. Hurricane: 17Opt 33FO, 479 Gun DPS, 4000 Alpha, 61000 EHP, 1311m/s, 0 Cap Use and 3 Different Dmg Types Maelstrom: 30Opt 44FO, 682DPS, 11000 Alpha, 130000 EHP, 835m/s, 0 Cap Use and 3 Different Dmg Types Well I say that those Artillery Ships are just damn to good. So Projectiles meet your dream stats almost dead on with even a few improvements just not with Barrage. Just so you know, I happen ton think Large Scorch needs a Nerf pretty badly. It makes Beams and Rails Pointless and as you can see above so does Artillery.
A few comments: - All of your complaining seems centered around how both lasers and projectiles are better than Hybrids. As of Monaclegate, most weapons systems (sans Hybrids and Cruise) were pretty reasonably balanced. If you really feel that the Hybrid boost isn't strong enough, you should campaign for it to be strengthened. - It isn't really an apples to apples comparison to compare Artillery with its terrible tracking to Pulse and its relatively awesome tracking. - It seems really premature to complain that Pulse makes Rails pointless when Rails are getting a 10% damage boost in the next patch. - Continuing QQing for nerfs when competing weapons systems are getting buffed is pretty dubious and the realization of your desires would likely lead to even worse balance than we have now (which is actually pretty good, sans Hybrids).
-Liang |
Izuru Hishido
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Violent Society
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:44:00 -
[203] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote: WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane. WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.
Artillery can do that... Just so you know, I happen ton think Large Scorch needs a Nerf pretty badly. It makes Beams and Rails Pointless and as you can see above so does Artillery.
Arties are not AC's, which we were talking about.
Scorch makes beams and rails pointless? How? Since when does scorch hit at 180+ optimal? Since when does scorch do 400 DPS at 150km+? Musta missed that buff.
Also, its Artillery. Its supposed to be long range, high volley, very slow rate of fire. I don't get what your problem is with the tradeoffs. Last I checked, a rail mega matched a tachapoc for almost everything except volley.
Edit: Thank you for covering the rail buff for me, Liang, forgot to mention that. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
36
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:47:00 -
[204] - Quote
Izuru Hishido wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote: WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane. WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.
Artillery can do that... Just so you know, I happen ton think Large Scorch needs a Nerf pretty badly. It makes Beams and Rails Pointless and as you can see above so does Artillery. Arties are not AC's, which we were talking about. Scorch makes beams and rails pointless? How? Since when does scorch hit at 180+ optimal? Since when does scorch do 400 DPS at 150km+? Musta missed that buff. Also, its Artillery. Its supposed to be long range, high volley, very slow rate of fire. I don't get what your problem is with the tradeoffs. Last I checked, a rail mega matched a tachapoc for almost everything except volley. Edit: Thank you for covering the rail buff for me, Liang, forgot to mention that.
10% rail damage makes a Rail Hype look very sexy indeed.
-Liang |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
328
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:49:00 -
[205] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: A few comments: - All of your complaining seems centered around how both lasers and projectiles are better than Hybrids. As of Monaclegate, most weapons systems (sans Hybrids and Cruise) were pretty reasonably balanced. If you really feel that the Hybrid boost isn't strong enough, you should campaign for it to be strengthened. - It isn't really an apples to apples comparison to compare Artillery with its terrible tracking to Pulse and its relatively awesome tracking. - It seems really premature to complain that Pulse makes Rails pointless when Rails are getting a 10% damage boost in the next patch. - Continuing QQing for nerfs when competing weapons systems are getting buffed is pretty dubious and the realization of your desires would likely lead to even worse balance than we have now (which is actually pretty good, sans Hybrids).
-Liang
1. No it is that Beams and Rails don't see use anymore. Scorch DPS, Artillery Alpha has limited the field. 2. Yes Pulse does have better tracking then a Long Range Weapon should. 3. Oh good 10% Buff now they are fine cept that they still do Lower DPS and there is the Tracking thing you mentioned. 4. That is only if you think the people running the balancing are drooling retards. 1 Massive Alpha Weapon and One Super Tracking Super DPS Weapon = Dead Rails and Beams.
Now that they are working to bring Hybrids in line is the perfect time to wrangle in everything.
Izuru Hishido wrote: Scorch makes beams and rails pointless? How? Since when does scorch hit at 180+ optimal? Since when does scorch do 400 DPS at 150km+? Musta missed that buff.
When is the last time you needed 10 be at that long a range since Apocrypha. When is the last time FC said Beams and Rails instead of Scorch and Arty. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:55:00 -
[206] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:****** liang is back defending the imba op matars again... Nah, I'm just saying that suggesting specific hybrid changes is really premature until the hybrid changes settle down - because that 's the biggest source of balancing QQ. And even then, if you're going to nerf projectiles you should probably nerf lasers too... which means there's a lot of instability introduced into the game. It's probably best to go with the suggested path all along: make Hybrids actually useful and see where things are after that. Remember that CCP had a choice: nerf lasers (and probably torps) or boost everything else. They chose to boost projectiles to laser levels (And IMO did a fairly good job of it), but they left the job half finished by only boosting projectiles. Hopefully they adequately finish the job here. -Liang
the usuall bs you always write in short : " just wait a little longer to see ..." to see what exactly??? huh??? that the dev blog will be the final hybrid boost as in 99% it is set into stone for ccp, or wait another 3 years? or what? yes projectiles are on laser lvl if you only compare the weapons ,but you need ships to use those and hand down matar ships are op compared to the others , those didnt get balanced at all, if matar noobs want as good weapons as the other races they should be satisfied with as bad ships also matars were balanced before the projectile boost because their ships compensated out the bad weapons but now they are just op
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
36
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:56:00 -
[207] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Now that they are working to bring Hybrids in line is the perfect time to wrangle in everything.
When they're mucking around with Hybrids is a ******* terrible time to nerf everything else.
Alara IonStorm wrote: When is the last time you needed 10 be at that long a range since Apocrypha. When is the last time FC said Beams and Rails instead of Scorch and Arty.
It isn't reasonable to talk about Blasters or Rails in the past and use them as a basis for nerfing anything today.
-Liang |
Izuru Hishido
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Violent Society
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 20:58:00 -
[208] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: A few comments: - All of your complaining seems centered around how both lasers and projectiles are better than Hybrids. As of Monaclegate, most weapons systems (sans Hybrids and Cruise) were pretty reasonably balanced. If you really feel that the Hybrid boost isn't strong enough, you should campaign for it to be strengthened. - It isn't really an apples to apples comparison to compare Artillery with its terrible tracking to Pulse and its relatively awesome tracking. - It seems really premature to complain that Pulse makes Rails pointless when Rails are getting a 10% damage boost in the next patch. - Continuing QQing for nerfs when competing weapons systems are getting buffed is pretty dubious and the realization of your desires would likely lead to even worse balance than we have now (which is actually pretty good, sans Hybrids).
-Liang
1. No it is that Beams and Rails don't see use anymore. Scorch DPS, Artillery Alpha has limited the field. 2. Yes Pulse does have better tracking then a Long Range Weapon should. 3. Oh good 10% Buff now they are fine cept that they still do Lower DPS and there is the Tracking thing you mentioned. 4. That is only if you think the people running the balancing are drooling retards. 1 Massive Alpha Weapon and One Super Tracking Super DPS Weapon = Dead Rails and Beams. Now that they are working to bring Hybrids in line is the perfect time to wrangle in everything.
What in the hell are you going on about?
Pulse are a short range weapon, yes. They aren't the only short range weapon that can hit at above 50km either, if you want a list I can provide you with one.
Rails aren't blasters. They don't need a super tracking speed.
The only one massive alpha weapon that I know of is either called a Doomsday or a Quad 3500mm Repeating I Gallium cannon, which one of does I believe about 20k alpha. The only 'super tracking super DPS weapon' I know of is a Doomsday. You're bitching, but all I hear is the argument of a blithering idiot.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
36
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Posted - 2011.11.03 21:01:00 -
[209] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote: the usuall bs you always write in short : " just wait a little longer to see ..." to see what exactly??? huh??? that the dev blog will be the final hybrid boost as in 99% it is set into stone for ccp, or wait another 3 years? or what? yes projectiles are on laser lvl if you only compare the weapons ,but you need ships to use those and hand down matar ships are op compared to the others , those didnt get balanced at all, if matar noobs want as good weapons as the other races they should be satisfied with as bad ships also matars were balanced before the projectile boost because their ships compensated out the bad weapons but now they are just op
Unfortunately, you're quite literally the very last person I would ever take seriously when speaking about Matari nerfs. As far as I've ever been able to tell, you won't be happy until Minmatar are literally nerfed into total oblivion. And by total oblivion, I mean making old Rockets look good in comparison.
-Liang |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
328
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Posted - 2011.11.03 21:03:00 -
[210] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: When they're mucking around with Hybrids is a ******* terrible time to nerf everything else.
No it is not. Do you think the Devs are too stupid to muck around with more then one weapons system at a time then balance them against each other.
Liang Nuren wrote: It isn't reasonable to talk about Blasters or Rails in the past and use them as a basis for nerfing anything today.
-Liang
They are terrible today because there ultra long range role is dead. Rails and Beams will not out DPS Scorch or Out Alpha Artillery. Therefor this rebalance is pointless without looking at Scorch.
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