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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
5
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Posted - 2011.11.01 16:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode.
I fly gallente and matar.
Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.01 16:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hannibal Ord wrote:Onictus wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode. I fly gallente and matar. Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff. You will find similar pleasure flying Amarr then. Not to the same extent, but the flexibility is also there.
Honestly, I'm still a rookie and trying to train up Matar and Gallente has my training queue fill for the forseeable future.
However, I do occasionally feel Kamikazi, so I have a hangar full of blaster boats, SOMEONE is going to get it, the ship may or may no (likely not) come back, but I'ma blast something. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.01 17:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote: I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.
Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis.......... wut Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered
RankShipsKills 1Drake933 2Hurricane878 3Dramiel378 4Cynabal287 5Harbinger268 6Sabre248 7Tengu246 8Manticore233 9Vagabond224 10Loki188 11Rapier177 12Machariel173 13Capsule156 14Hound155 15Rifter127 16Tempest110 17Zealot110 18Falcon105 19Armageddon101 20Abaddon95
....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.01 17:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Onictus wrote:Paragon Renegade wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote: I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.
Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis.......... wut Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered RankShipsKills 1Drake933 2Hurricane878 3Dramiel378 4Cynabal287 5Harbinger268 6Sabre248 7Tengu246 8Manticore233 9Vagabond224 10Loki188 11Rapier177 12Machariel173 13Capsule156 14Hound155 15Rifter127 16Tempest110 17Zealot110 18Falcon105 19Armageddon101 20Abaddon95 ....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though. Nerf the Capsule its being used too much. Really ... All those statistic you can scrap prove nothing at all. If we talking about PvP, it depends on fleet composition and purpose of such fleet than you chose ships for it. Dominixes are not that bad last time i checked, however you will hardly use them in massive fleet engagements.
I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says.
Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:Onictus wrote: I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says.
Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob.
Now, just to clarify a point; I'd like if the other factions were beefed-up a bit, which they're doing in the winter anyway. My stance is that nerfing the minmatar ships so close to the update would be a short-sighted decision & a bad move. :3
I never said to nerf anything.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.02 02:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Look at the total package: Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.
This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.
Pulse vs AC is actually a good match turret to turret, at range pulses + scortch are arguably a better system
Its when you can stack three gyros and two TE's on a double bonused hull that happens to be fastest in class that the balance tips.
...and seriously, a set of EC-300s or a TD completely shuts down a Hurricane, its not hard to counter the more common fits, plan accordingly.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.02 05:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:Nerf ac's? i say ney they need a buff! and CCP thinks so too. With the new Hail buff doubling the range of their highest DPS ammo they will be right where they are ment to be as FoTM. Reigning champion for the last few years with no contenders in sight for years to come.
Hail is arty ammo, and NO ONE uses it currently because it puts a rate or fire penalty on a weapon system that fires every 12 seconds with prefect skills and a three gyro's to speed it up in addition to a 50% range penalty. On 1400s there is no reason to use it ever, you get to fire more than 4 times a minute when you use faction ammo, and for sniping you use Tremor anyway because you need the range bonus.
I hardly think that that the change to Hailis groundbreaking. People aren't going to change the employment of 1400mm arties (Arty Baddon anyone) its just an option over using RF short range ammo types all of the time.
People should really welcome it, at least matar using T2 ammo is sticking to one damage type most likely, otherwise you are choosing by engagement. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.02 05:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Feyona wrote:
Hail is autocannon ammo.
Yeah I was busy fixing that post.
Point stands though, I've never seen hail used anywhere except battle clinic to bump up numbers.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
7
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Posted - 2011.11.02 10:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shadowsword wrote: Let's look at FOTM ships in the last few years: Dramiel, Machariel, Cynabal, Vaggabond, Ishtar, Drake, Hurricane, Abaddon, Maelstrom. Notice a pattern here?
To be fair Ishtar can't fit a 1600mm plate, a MWD and 3 medium turrets, no matter the flavor. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
7
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Posted - 2011.11.02 12:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Elistea wrote:Only recently i've started to fly minmatar ships but i instanly noticed incredible versatility of autocannons. Superior tracking, falloff, rate of fire makes them definitely most universal. Fact that in mach i can shoot from melee range up to 65km with HAIL is actualy kinda OP and makes autocannons weapon of choice for most PVPiers. CCP should rly do some small changes to it. (Mby take a bit from projectile weapons and give it to hybrids)
That is mostly ship bonuses.
...its an insanely good hull, but not indicative of the Matari BS line. |
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
8
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Posted - 2011.11.02 13:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Elistea wrote:Onictus wrote:Elistea wrote:Only recently i've started to fly minmatar ships but i instanly noticed incredible versatility of autocannons. Superior tracking, falloff, rate of fire makes them definitely most universal. Fact that in mach i can shoot from melee range up to 65km with HAIL is actualy kinda OP and makes autocannons weapon of choice for most PVPiers. CCP should rly do some small changes to it. (Mby take a bit from projectile weapons and give it to hybrids) That is mostly ship bonuses. ...its an insanely good hull, but not indicative of the Matari BS line. That combination was only an example. Same thing goes for vargur, cane, sleipnir, vagabond, cynabal.... However mach + "advanced" autocannons are way to strong.
Cane you can remove from that list, its good, but not that crazy, the Sleip I'll give you.
But Angles can't be held against the system, their speed and hull bonuses make them silly....and the Vargur is a dedicated PvE ship.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
17
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Posted - 2011.11.04 10:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
TEs work the same for everyone. Please stop pretending like they don't.
-Liang
TE's favor AC's by virtue of increasing falloff considerably....they have a bigger effect on optimal+ falloff than any other turret system.
None of the other turrets have falloffs 130% of their optimal, by pushing falloff you reduce the drop in the curve and overall dps increases over x distance.
So a TE on a 800mm AC increases falloff what 7km or so? When you stack three of them you get about 25-30% (if memory serves) real range bonus with short range ammo (which I must say is going to rock when Hail gets buffed)
Opposed to the other systems that are primarily optimal, three TE's on a Neutron blaster cannon with faction AM pushes optimal + fall off from 19km (ish) to 28km where the comparable ACs go from 22km to 48km optimal + falloff with short range faction ammo. The amusing part is that the above example, blaster optimal is something like 11km and ACs are a whopping 3,500 or so with my my imperfect skills.
Not exactly game breaking in my opinion.
Hulls are more the issue than the turrets themselves.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
17
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Posted - 2011.11.04 12:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bomberlocks wrote:
I agree. Pulse BS still rule the day in fleet fights, shield tanked Zealots can ruin your day out to 50km (thanks to TEs!) and even a plated Harb with no TE/TCs still projects damage better over relevant solo/small gang ranges than a Hurricane.
Wouldn't a change to rig mechanics help Gallente? Give the Hybrid burst aerator give higher bonus than the equivalent projectile and laser rigs?[/quote]
More like get rid of the speed penalty on active armor armor rigs
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
17
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Posted - 2011.11.04 18:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote: TE's favor AC's by virtue of increasing falloff considerably....they have a bigger effect on optimal+ falloff than any other turret system.
Amusingly, optimal + falloff is a much less interesting mechanic than optimal + 0 falloff or optimal + falloff/2. You have to remember that just because you can deal damage doesn't make it good damage. Quote: None of the other turrets have falloffs 130% of their optimal, by pushing falloff you reduce the drop in the curve and overall dps increases over x distance.
Please stop equating falloff with optimal. They are not at all the same. One of them is quite dramatically inferior. -Liang
Agreed, optimal is more valuable.
But no one is screaming about nerfing pulse lasers despite their very long optimals....
The optimal on ACs is shorter than blasters, under 2000 with 425s? Compared to 2300 with neutrons. While uninteresting you simply can't say damage in falloff is ineffective.
You just said yourself that blasters are useless, yet they have a LONGER optimal than ACs.....and I doubt you will hear many cries about under powered autocannons in fall off. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
18
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote: Agreed, optimal is more valuable.
But no one is screaming about nerfing pulse lasers despite their very long optimals....
The optimal on ACs is shorter than blasters, under 2000 with 425s? Compared to 2300 with neutrons. While uninteresting you simply can't say damage in falloff is ineffective.
You just said yourself that blasters are useless, yet they have a LONGER optimal than ACs.....and I doubt you will hear many cries about under powered autocannons in fall off.
Comments: - Actually, several people in this thread have stated their desire to nerf both projectiles and lasers. Or just projectiles (which would lead to lasers). - I didn't say that all damage in falloff is ineffective, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I said that optimal + falloff is not as interesting as optimal and optimal + falloff/2. If you're at optimal + falloff your damage isn't anything to write home about. - Again, blasters have deeper problems than can be solved by TEs. It is ******* useless to continue bringing them up. Either CCP will boost blasters to the levels of Lasers and Projectiles or they will continue to be useless. If you want to talk about the balance of TEs you should restrict yourself to functional weapons systems. cyka776 wrote:they should have just nerfed scorch and lasers a while back instead of buffing projectiles Yes, this was the right answer. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that time has long since passed and it is no longer the right answer. CCP must now buff hybrids, which is the direction they're going. After that, they'll need to look at Cruise. -Liang
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
18
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote: Agreed, optimal is more valuable.
But no one is screaming about nerfing pulse lasers despite their very long optimals....
The optimal on ACs is shorter than blasters, under 2000 with 425s? Compared to 2300 with neutrons. While uninteresting you simply can't say damage in falloff is ineffective.
You just said yourself that blasters are useless, yet they have a LONGER optimal than ACs.....and I doubt you will hear many cries about under powered autocannons in fall off.
Comments: - Actually, several people in this thread have stated their desire to nerf both projectiles and lasers. Or just projectiles (which would lead to lasers). - I didn't say that all damage in falloff is ineffective, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I said that optimal + falloff is not as interesting as optimal and optimal + falloff/2. If you're at optimal + falloff your damage isn't anything to write home about. - Again, blasters have deeper problems than can be solved by TEs. It is ******* useless to continue bringing them up. Either CCP will boost blasters to the levels of Lasers and Projectiles or they will continue to be useless. If you want to talk about the balance of TEs you should restrict yourself to functional weapons systems. cyka776 wrote:they should have just nerfed scorch and lasers a while back instead of buffing projectiles Yes, this was the right answer. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that time has long since passed and it is no longer the right answer. CCP must now buff hybrids, which is the direction they're going. After that, they'll need to look at Cruise. -Liang
And the functional difference between blasters and acs
Optimal..nope Dps.....nope Fitting.....already buffed on sisi
Oh wait.....they don't have any appriciable fall off thus no effictive range.
That is it.
And you goddamn sure said falloff was inferior ....which belied ACs effectiveness against pulse lasers at sane ranges |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
18
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
m0cking bird wrote:
All that said has not change since I've been in-game (bar Introduction of strategic cruisers). Same sh!t different day of the month. Gallente will never be considered good unless they do massive damage or are viable in fleets. What matters most is their viability in fleets for the majority of pilots in this game because that is how most pvp. Minmatar is now good in it all, with the addition of 3 ships to fleet pvp: Hurricane, Tempest, Rupture (i dunno about this one <3). Now my beloved race is used by the masses and it disgusts me...
-proxyyyy
its a consequence.
When I trained up Matar from Gallente and fit my frist Hurricane the first throught through me head was "Whoa that was easy"
No cap concerns, no fitting mods, no ridiculous ranges, overall they just work.
I planned on being a split Gal/Matar pilot before I knew anything about the game, what I didn't know was just how good Minmatar actually were.
I've never flown (indeed can't) fly a laser ship, but seeing AC's toned down a bit either range or raw damage wouldn't put them out of line for ALL of their other advantages.
I still want to see my native hybrids be useful, but they are taking baby steps with blasters ....while buffing the **** out of hail.
....and oddly I didn't see Void on the list of ammo being rebalnced...../sigh. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
18
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:
You have the only short range weapons in the game that is competitive with long range weapons outside a small gang setting. This is quite a massive advantage and no amount of exceptionalism is going to get you off the hook of being top dog in one of the most common PvP scenarios in the game.
Not arguing that one ...at all.
Its just a little silly when scortch pulses actually work BEYOND 425 railgun optimal.....
I mean really? Rails are supposed to be about range exclusively, and you need to get into range bonused ammo to get your optimal out to scortch range. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
18
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Posted - 2011.11.04 23:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yeah without AWU IV and grid upgrades V its really not worth the trouble lol. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
18
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Posted - 2011.11.04 23:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Onictus wrote:Yeah without AWU IV and grid upgrades V its really not worth the trouble lol. AWU IV? Bush league, man, bush league.
Yeah Yeah I know.....still don't have AWU V....but I only have a year in game, its....4th down the list for crap to finish up at the moment.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
33
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Posted - 2011.11.21 08:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: What you say makes sense. But let me pose this to you. Before the projectile buff the vagabond, the sleipner, and the angel cruiser I'll leave out - had 23km of falloff. Now they have over 40km. Where do you draw the line?
You do understand that at 44km with a Vaga:
a) You need a T3 mindlinked interdiction booster and faction point to keep anything from warping away b) That the vaga needs to have some time on its hands because it only does 400dps at optimal, and that far out its doing less than a hundred...yes even with barrage loaded. c) Even if the vaga pilot doesn't have a booster and 140mil isk point, at 22km its doing something like 225 (can look it up right now) DPS .....a feat accomplished by a frigate that is up close. d) If you slow down said Vaga, its hosed, once you scram a Vagabound its done, kaput, aka F!cked. e) No Vaga pilot in his right mind is going to try to stay 40km out, because ALL of the medium range turret systems are going to light him up, and a Vaga simply isn't going to win a fight when its getting hit.
So unless you are flying frigates, this should be relatively easily countered...of you are flying an armor brick BC, well congratulations, you're rock, he's paper. If you are in a Nano-BC, it shouldn't be terribly hard to screw with his range until you get a few shots on him and chase him off, or get away.
Christ I'm a **** poor solo pilot, and I don't really worry about a Solo vaga, |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
33
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Posted - 2011.11.21 09:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:Onictus wrote: You do understand that at 44km with a Vaga: ... b) That the vaga needs to have some time on its hands because it only does 400dps at optimal, and that far out its doing less than a hundred...yes even with barrage loaded. c) Even if the vaga pilot doesn't have a booster and 140mil isk point, at 22km its doing something like 225 (can look it up right now) DPS .....a feat accomplished by a frigate that is up close.
Hi, 2x gyro 2x TE vaga does 399 DPS overheated (trying to match your figures) with 41km falloff. At 22km it's doing roughly 330 DPS with barrage. It gets ~225 DPS at 34.5ish km. A max skilled blaster incursus overheated with faction antimatter deals 193 DPS, which is the same DPS the said vaga achieves at 39 or so km. A max skilled rifter (1 gyro) overheated does 148 DPS, which is the same DPS the said vaga achieves at 45.3km Just wanted to clear up some of your misconceptions. Bye Not misconceptions, didn't have it in front of me.......I don't have EFT on my work computer.....and I simply don't have every combiniation of ship memorized as, there are quite a few of them it seems. And really, when was the last time you saw a T1 frigate attack a battlecruiser solo. I have interceptors that are over 200DPS, no heat.
So what does an Zealot do DPS wise at 40KM, I had one that basically stripped my shields in about two shots. no idea how it was fit through.
Besides the point really, I was pointing out that a Vagabond its a magic bullet, a Zealot should be able to chase one of the field, and a Ishtar should more or less faceroll it. Barring a mistake anyway.
You see a stack of vagas running around mainly because it can outrun damn near everything it can outgun.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
37
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Posted - 2011.11.23 07:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
You are more optimistic that I am.
Goofing around on the test server didn't blow me away particularly.
My Myrms will likely still have their ACs, Ares will remain my favorite ceptor. My Mega, Brutix, and Hype....the Hype keeps up with a Tempsets now (YAY) the rest are a bit easier to fit....oh Enyo and Ishkur are still to slow for anything except dogfighting, Daredevil is pretty ********, but it always was.
Basically nothing really changes.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
37
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Posted - 2011.11.23 12:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:
Myrms are seen with ACs, because ACs are OP.
I put AC's on myrms because of fitting restraints (only medium that fits) or because there are three reppers and you don't want ANYTHING not a repper or hardener eating cap.
Sans bonuses AC's aren't anything to scream about....and the myrm doesn't have a turret bonus. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
38
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Posted - 2011.11.24 11:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Jaxemont wrote:That's my main annoyance with Minmatar at least. How come only one race gets to be easy to fit, while the others are a nightmare? Caldari missile boats are not particularly hard to fit. That being said, the Drake requires fitting mods for a ganglink, while the Cane does not. not hard ... sure... lets compare cerb vs vaga cerb with 5 ham+mwd remain 312 cpu 76 pg vaga with 5 425mm ac+mwd remain 349cpu 225pg both of them are shield tanking ships and bcu needs more cpu than gyros so if you want to fit a shield extender cerb needs some pg rigs/modules/implants yeah totally not hard to fit,the other caldari ships are the same dumb ignorant matar fanboy
You have never fit a Vaga have you. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
38
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Posted - 2011.11.24 12:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:
did i say i would fit 425mm ac? or what? I wouldnt use ham on cerb neighter that doesnt mean i cant use them to compare fitting restrictions
i jumped vaga btw and use cyna ,it isnt more costly at all and still better by far
So you don't know then
You do understand that you fit two TE/s because there isn't enough CPU for Gyros, and you can't T2 fit its tank if you want anything in your slot 6 that isn't a PG implant. Which is why you see them with a LSE II and a Regolith a lot of the time, that pilot either want something useful for that hardwire, or can't be arsed to change clones every time he wants to use the hull.
For this you get less tank than a Cerb and likely less applied DPS, Cynbal is different ball game. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
38
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Posted - 2011.11.24 12:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Onictus wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:
did i say i would fit 425mm ac? or what? I wouldnt use ham on cerb neighter that doesnt mean i cant use them to compare fitting restrictions
i jumped vaga btw and use cyna ,it isnt more costly at all and still better by far
So you don't know then You do understand that you fit two TE/s because there isn't enough CPU for Gyros, and you can't T2 fit its tank if you want anything in your slot 6 that isn't a PG implant. Which is why you see them with a LSE II and a Regolith a lot of the time, that pilot either want something useful for that hardwire, or can't be arsed to change clones every time he wants to use the hull. For this you get less tank than a Cerb and likely less applied DPS, Cynbal is different ball game. so with more cpu to spend on rest of the fit it is harder to fit than the cerb , that is just totally believable pls show me the fit where vaga runs out of cpu thx
Bah you are right, that was a fleet stabber, now that I look.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
49
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Posted - 2011.11.30 15:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
heh this thread is like a Japanese cochroach circa 1946. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
51
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Posted - 2011.12.01 11:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Gallente is always more expensive due to noxium requirements...
Where a Myrm goes for 42(ish) you see Hurricanes around 26 and drakes just under 30......then you get to load Myrm with about 15-20 drones which adds up to another 10-12 mil or so. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 03:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
Joe Cheap wrote:I dont know what game you re actually playing.
All i see is Tornado' s destroy everything that moves, just saying.
Large weapon that can track cruiser size if not frig it s just silly, and hitting hard in falloff with short weapon like Ac up to 30-40Km... just silly
Large AC's always COULD track cruisers from about 12km out, the difference is that the Tornado is fast enough to be where it needs to be on the field, something that most hadn't experienced without fighting Machariels...
....which is rare because most "PvP' machs NEVER close with 100km they nuke a couple ships from way and GTFO before they get tackled.
Likewise its not a magic bullet, I've killed a couple already with a lowly Hurricane. |
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 05:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:there was little wrong with Minmatar ships before the buff - and typical of CCP, it was an over buff.
1) Direct DPS buff 2) TE Buff 3) Damage type buff
personally I think that the TE buff should be nullified entierly. That will bring AC ranges down again. THe 9% DD buff should go down to 5% (a 4% reduction in dps), and the damage types should be returned to the previous mixed damage types - and that kind of bonus be given to Hybrids (ala hybrids do 'pure damage').
ummm no
Who about hybrids that are half falloff. They are JUST useable now, cutting the on TE would: a) make large neutrons hit for about 15km with null, drop ALL of the mediums under 10km b) force Gallente rail ships into armor tanks to fit TCs c) COMPLETELY screw Caldari who can't armor tank anyway.
I'm sorry you willingly hamstring yourself into a one race, its a poor mode to make balance decisions from. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 10:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
[quote=Takeshi Yamato]Quote: Basically the recent balancing only made half sense. Caldari and especially Gallente got some boosts, but where are the Minmatar nerfs besides the Dramiel adjustments? Hail was boosted instead. It makes no sense.
Dramiel is pirate faction, not matar....and regardless of what the RPers say in this thread matar and amarr and pretty well balanced against each other overall.
Yes the Cane is better than a Harbi (barely) yet Drake is better than both in many situations, when you get into BS's Amarr essentially obsolete EVERY other races' BS's in fleet engagement's Nano-pests and Domi's for those who must solo in small gangs.....and I know Raven and Rohk suck, but I see a LOT of Scorpions running around.
The hail buff is meh, because if you want to use hail you have to be in scram range (yes even now) and that is the death of a ship against damn near everything else....but if you want to armor pig a cane, yeah, the hail buff is nice.
How many armor canes have you seen lately, I think I've ever killed two or three and I'm one a couple pilots that I know that will undock them. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.12.05 13:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Onictus wrote: Dramiel is pirate faction, not matar....and regardless of what the RPers say in this thread matar and amarr and pretty well balanced against each other overall.
Your claim is contradicted by CCP's data. Ships that use projectile weapons dominate in final blow charts. Also, Angel ships are effectively minmatar ships: they use the same weapons, have the same slot layouts and the typical speed, agility, sig radius values etc. Balance discussion isn't about labels, but about concrete measures. Angel ships are minmatar in anything but their label. Quote:Yes the Cane is better than a Harbi (barely) Once again, CCP's own data disagrees. The Cane is far better than the Harbi, and the Drake is somewhat better than the Cane. See the following top 5 final blows chart: Quote:Battlecruiser: Drake 732,236 Hurricane 629,933 Harbinger 236,607 Myrmidon 116,046 Brutix 85,931 Quote:How many armor canes have you seen lately Why armor tank and gimp your own speed when you can shield tank instead? Armor mods and rigs need to have their speed penalties removed (replaced by sig radius penalty), then the ships relying on them can finally start competing with shield tankers. Speed makes all the difference.
Yeah armor tank a cane gimgp speed for DOUBLE the tank, Why? It WAS the fastest battlecruiser..not the fastest Tier 2 the fastest overall until last week. Either way, armor Hurricanes are fun as hell to fly.
Killing blows likely also correlates with employment and rate of fire...out of the top two BCs one has a 12 second cycle with HML and the other something like two and a half, so there it gets 4 : 1 odds of landing a killing blow. Note the Myrmidon and Brutix combined don't equal 1/7 of the battlecruisers used.
Gee so you are arguing to nerf an entire race over ONE ship class, and what you are trying to nerf IS NOT THE BEST by your own data set.
Great argument there.
Canes are favored for GTFO, Drakes for their tank.....and I'd wager that 1/2 of those Drakes are nano drakes that sacrifice damage for speed since damn near anything that can catch them (like a shield cane) they destroy and everything else they run from.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:06:00 -
[34] - Quote
I fly typhoons...everyone runs from them
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.12.05 19:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Quote:The main issue is still that matar is way too good in way too many situations What exactly creates the overpoweredness? 1) Tracking Enhancers / Computers: falloff bonus is too high. AC ships can stay far out of web and neut range while still doing significant damage. These modules are effectively a second type of damage increasing module for ships that will be fighting in falloff. 2) High tracking + high falloff is a very serious threat for ships that are smaller and FASTER. To counter a skirmish ship, you would normally use a smaller and faster ship to pin it down - however autocannons are also great at killing that exact type of ship. 3) In addition to the above, almost every Minmatar ship has spare high slots for neutralizers and ample cpu and grid as well as enough cap to use them. This further helps them to break tanks, control range and kill tacklers without any significant drawbacks. 4) The trademark speed agility works a bit too well with high falloff. It's only both together that are problematic. 5) Shield tanking mods and rigs don't slow them down. The choice durable or fast doesn't have to be made. 6) Freebies like selectable damage types, Hail being plain better than other close range ammo, and surprisingly good damage/ehp ratios for skirmisher ships are unnecessary but exist anyway. To sum it up in one sentence, autocannon ships are overpowered because they are damn hard to counter. They can deal with almost anything and don't have to take the same risks as other ships do (or suffer from the same drawbacks). They need to have a specific weakness that can be exploited. How that is done is up to CCP.
Christ
Confirming Amarr fanbois are too scared to step up to hell cats and to ******* stupid to WARP AWAY.
I thought this **** was PvP 101 if you don't outrun it out gun it.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.12.05 22:37:00 -
[36] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Onictus wrote: Christ
Confirming Amarr fanbois are too scared to step up to hell cats and to ******* stupid to WARP AWAY.
I thought this **** was PvP 101 if you don't outrun it out gun it.
Yea I get it. Minmatar players are just better than everyone else. Also, CCP statistics mean nothing
Statistics say the drake is more used........ |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.12.06 00:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
Not A Vampire wrote:In fairness, -A- works really hard to keep that statistic up.
I'll learn to fly one, one of these days |
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