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Deizel
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Posted - 2010.06.30 09:58:00 -
[1]
Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
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Chesty McJubblies
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Posted - 2010.06.30 09:59:00 -
[2]
1st
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:01:00 -
[3]
Don't forget they will double the starting ISK if you send it to CCP when creating a char.
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:04:00 -
[4]
OP has excellent insight.
Originally by: Chribba Don't forget they will double the starting ISK if you send it to CCP when creating a char.
The DEV scamming = best scamming?
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Tracia Pandragon
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:06:00 -
[5]
And right after that CCP is going to start a second server where everybody can begin from the scratch?
So my personnal opinion would be: Eve is dying (again)!
Last but not least: ibtccpct (in before the ccp counter trolling)
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StarRanger
Gallente Royal Star Ranger Family
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chribba Don't forget they will double the starting ISK if you send it to CCP when creating a char.
Like they say in some local chats "send me any money and i will double it!"? -
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Uh huh. Sure buddy. Right, and guess what, next week I'm going to find out I've won the powerball while getting it with Sandra Oh in the back of a Lamborghini being driven by Vida Guerra through a lot on the playboy mansion watching a photoshoot.
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Slade Hoo
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:25:00 -
[8]
Those changes would be great! This really would be an improvement for all eve players in terms of fairness and gameplay, especially for beginners and new accounts as well as training alts on the same account. (Except for Change No. 4; not necessary at all imo)
Just do it CCP!
------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:28:00 -
[9]
I'd like that, actually.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Memorya
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:31:00 -
[10]
Probaly far more % boost, becouse of the new players. But Deizel your spot on with most of the stuff. ------------------------ "English is a funny language; that explains why we park our car on the driveway and drive our car on the parkway."
English is my 5th. Language.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:34:00 -
[11]
Please remove the goddamn learning skills!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. |
Eve Antonovich
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:39:00 -
[12]
CCP, please nerf speculation
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RaTTuS
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:41:00 -
[13]
you have it wrong OP if learning skills are to be removed then you will not get any addition attribute points i.e. base attribs will stay the same but you will get +6 and +7 implants though you will need advanced cybernetics [rank 14 skill]
--
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Deizel
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Thanks for that clarification.
My personal prediction is that CCP will remove the SPs of anyone that starts yet another tread on the removal of leaning skills/selling SPs/SP reallocation and distribute them amongst the rest of the player base.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:10:00 -
[15]
Probably not gonna happen, although I don't think it would be that bad a change really. But I am quite interested in why they implemented something like this. I doubt it was hard to do, but I als doubt that this was done purely to give us SP for the downtime.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gariuys Probably not gonna happen, although I don't think it would be that bad a change really. But I am quite interested in why they implemented something like this. I doubt it was hard to do, but I als doubt that this was done purely to give us SP for the downtime.
The ability to replace skillpoints after CCP decides to remove them is, at the least, the second best reason to develop such a system. That or they are going to allow SP microtransactions
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb Focused Intentions
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tracia Pandragon And right after that CCP is going to start a second server where everybody can begin from the scratch?
No, the second server will be a non-pvp server where everyone can AP through low-sec without fear of gankage, right?
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Karak Terrel
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
My personal prediction is that CCP will remove the SPs of anyone that starts yet another thread on the removal of leaning skills/selling SPs/SP reallocation and distribute them amongst the rest of the player base.
+1
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jedi'master yoda
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:32:00 -
[19]
+1 alt builder supports this
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Gariuys Probably not gonna happen, although I don't think it would be that bad a change really. But I am quite interested in why they implemented something like this. I doubt it was hard to do, but I als doubt that this was done purely to give us SP for the downtime.
The ability to replace skillpoints after CCP decides to remove them is, at the least, the second best reason to develop such a system. That or they are going to allow SP microtransactions
Slade
Oh goody, gonna make this in another SP microtransactions are cool thread? I had so much fun reading the last one. Been out of the loop for a bit so it's really quite usseful in getting too know the new trolls.
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Miilla
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:34:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Miilla on 30/06/2010 11:34:33 So what happens to the Attribute IMPLANT market?
Do we kill those and only have hardwires?
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Taedrin
Gallente Xovoni Directorate
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Gariuys Probably not gonna happen, although I don't think it would be that bad a change really. But I am quite interested in why they implemented something like this. I doubt it was hard to do, but I als doubt that this was done purely to give us SP for the downtime.
The ability to replace skillpoints after CCP decides to remove them is, at the least, the second best reason to develop such a system. That or they are going to allow SP microtransactions
Slade
Or they could be using it for future gifts to the players or incentives to resubscribe your account. Perhaps also an incentive to recruit more players to the game too. There are a dozen different ways this could be used by CCP. ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Amaron Ghant
Caldari Tritanium Space Whales Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:36:00 -
[23]
The thing I don't get is why people say new chars are useless for the first few months because all you are doing is learning er learning skills.
If thats the case, then you are clueless or stupid, but i'll be polite and go with clueless.
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:43:00 -
[24]
...and the day after this happens, CCP will nerf Dramiels.
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Sub System
Caldari Is It Worth It
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:45:00 -
[25]
Quote:
My personal prediction is that CCP will remove the SPs of anyone that starts yet another thread on the removal of leaning skills/selling SPs/SP reallocation and distribute them amongst the rest of the player base.
This ^^
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Tracia Pandragon
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Wacktopia
Originally by: Tracia Pandragon And right after that CCP is going to start a second server where everybody can begin from the scratch?
No, the second server will be a non-pvp server where everyone can AP through low-sec without fear of gankage, right?
Wrong! All the space will become empire space. And the only PvP interaction will be 0.01 isk trader wars!
Funfact: one of the reasons why older players are "better" pod pilots then players like "Deizel" is the matter that most of them have skilled learnings à
Did I mentioned that long time ago I really hated the learning skills à? Until the day I tried to learn battleships V and realized i could save soooooooooo much time if I only à.. that was the day I started training learnings. True story.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.06.30 12:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Look, if you don't actually know anything and just want to share your personal opinion, then why not word your message accordingly? Take away your disclaimer, and you sound like spokesperson for CCP, announcing what, when and how they will do things with their game.
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Amarante Idama
Gallente Drunken Armed Pilots G String University
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Posted - 2010.06.30 12:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Wacktopia
No, the second server will be a non-pvp server where everyone can AP through low-sec without fear of gankage, right?
ohnoes space trammel!
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 12:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game. [...]
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Yet, you claim there will be a Devblog.
Item DB | Sigs
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Captain Organs
ArmoredCore Armed Forces
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Posted - 2010.06.30 12:44:00 -
[30]
I'd enjoy this change. 2.4m sp to reallocate as I see fit? that's not a bad deal for me :D
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.30 12:46:00 -
[31]
If CCP removed learning skills, they would see new accounts absolutely skyrocket
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akuera
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Posted - 2010.06.30 12:46:00 -
[32]
I certently hope they do it :)
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.30 12:55:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Taedrin
Or they could be using it for future gifts to the players or incentives to resubscribe your account. Perhaps also an incentive to recruit more players to the game too. There are a dozen different ways this could be used by CCP.
Yes they could and I did not say my list was extensive. But what would be a better gift to players that spent a month or more on learning skills for at least one of their pilots?
Originally by: Gariuys
Oh goody, gonna make this in another SP microtransactions are cool thread? I had so much fun reading the last one. Been out of the loop for a bit so it's really quite usseful in getting too know the new trolls.
/ shakes fist
I be not a troll I have just been here too long
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 14:40:00 -
[34]
Didn't mean you... unless you support that idea as well... then you're a troll even if you're not... but if you've been here long I doubt you would support such a crappy idea anyway. ;-)
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.30 14:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Deizel 1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
YES!!
Originally by: Deizel Further changes: 4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
NO!!!! Revmoval of learning skills is very nice already. Even if it's at the expense of the double speed training time!
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Alia Corrino
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Posted - 2010.06.30 15:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Deizel 1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
YES!!
Originally by: Deizel Further changes: 4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
NO!!!! Revmoval of learning skills is very nice already. Even if it's at the expense of the double speed training time!
+1
Learning skills are silly. Every time I think about getting an alt the month of learning skills puts me off entirely again.
I highly doubt anyone would be disappointed if learning skills were removed and we were given the total SP invested (around 2 million-ish for 5/4 I think). The only thing is the cost of the skill books, but I'm sure everyone would manage.
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:15:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Not likely but anyway... 1) if it happens, expect to see that figure adjusted to 8 or 9, not 10. 2) no, not happening, but maybe some PR guy can twist it into being true if we actually get +10 instead of +9 or +8. 3) could happen, though assigning them to a double training rate limit is the preferred solution from a balance point of view (it just requires more work). Problem is of course that you could dump them into skills where your stats are horrible (kinda cheating) or dump them on a alt (see http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1344878) though that could possible be denied by GMs. Quote: Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start) Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
4) No, not happening. "premade" 900k/1M SP chars like that are the exact reason there is double training rate until the first 1.8M SP (2x 900k), it had a lot of undesireable sideffects. For similar reasons people do not get maxed out skills on Singularity.
ps: Deizel, just because there is talk/debate/speculation in E-UNI chat (last night) does not mean there is any kind of dev action brewing. I'm pretty sure they had happily forgotten and hoped that we had as well, otherwhise they would have to, you know, actually live up to a promise.
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Barakkus
Caelestis Iudicium
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:21:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Deizel 4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
You USED to get specialized skill sets when creating a character depending on race/caste/profession choices. I don't know why they removed all that.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
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Octoven
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:28:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Barakkus
Originally by: Deizel 4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
You USED to get specialized skill sets when creating a character depending on race/caste/profession choices. I don't know why they removed all that.
Because people were *****ing about not being able to choose which skills they wanted soo CCP removed the sets gave us a trian bonus to train learning skills which actually added to length of training time. I loved the skill sets and wished we had them back but I dont see that happening too many idiots are used to the whole new concept to personalizing skills. You should be able to have 900K skills to allocate from character creation to use however you want THATS what i thought they were replace skill sets with and that is what I will support. Lets take learning skills out get rid of the time bonus and give all new toons 900K SP to allocate where they wish to now that the system is in place to do so.
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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:30:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Barakkus You USED to get specialized skill sets when creating a character depending on race/caste/profession choices. I don't know why they removed all that.
Veterans were able to choose the right career and specialty to obtain the pilot they desired. A new player did not have any idea what they wanted to do in game and felt they were pigeon holed into a limited career path with their initial choice.
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Skydell
Umbrella Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:36:00 -
[41]
11 skills, 6 rank 1 to 5, 5 rank 3 to 4. 2,214,825.
One rank 10 to level 5. 2,560,000 One rank 12 to 5. 3,072,000.
Its a long forgotten drop in the bucket to a vet. But lets not fool ourselves. It is a respec.
Nothing is going to make EvE subscriptions 'Skyrocket' as someone suggested. Those potential days are long gone and never really happened for EvE anyway.
There can be a surged return but it means CCP need to fix the lagg. I dont have any silver bullets there. They dont either. So status quo will remain. High sec huggers (like me) will stay where we are, 0.0 sec huggers will continue to get filthy rich because the combat system there is broken. We will wonder about .5% of our SP and if we can roll it around and forget the obvious. The game is in a flux because of whatever happened after Dominion stopped the ISK sinks. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:43:00 -
[42]
I support removing learning skills if...
1: People that trained learning skills are reimbursed the points they spent.
2: All attributes are set back to their original (non-learning skill enhanced) levels.
It's the only way to make it fair for everyone.
What's that you say? You don't like that option at all? You want all of the perks but none of the price?
Yeah, thats pretty much what I thought. Stop trying to remove choices that have consequences from EVE.
Learn to think ahead.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Schmacos tryne
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:00:00 -
[43]
ffs... I have maxed learning skillz and +5 implants
plus i plan my skillz which means i have a ****load of SP for a character my age.
Don't come here and talk about being fair. Fair is advantage to pilots who has training skillz maxed
I enjoy watching all the jealous and undiciplined whiners lagging further and further behind in total skillpoints.
max them and shut up!
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:02:00 -
[44]
You forgot you can purchase up to 10m sp per year for the sum of $10 usd per 1m sp. --
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you." -John Wooden |
Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Schmacos tryne I had to suffer, so everybody else should too!
Uhh huh.
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Octoven
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:05:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ranger 1 I support removing learning skills if...
1: People that trained learning skills are reimbursed the points they spent.
2: All attributes are set back to their original (non-learning skill enhanced) levels.
It's the only way to make it fair for everyone.
What's that you say? You don't like that option at all? You want all of the perks but none of the price?
Yeah, thats pretty much what I thought. Stop trying to remove choices that have consequences from EVE.
Learn to think ahead.
Since I ignore rhetorical questions I will just say resetting attributes to non-learning levels kind of negates the point of even having the skills or even knowing about the skills. I think a +3 on all attributes from base is a nice round figure and it would be equal to all WITHOUT the stupid price you mentioned. I also agree that vets who trained the skills should get the sp back. We wish to remove learning skills because of the pain in the ass they are to train takes away from skills you actually could be training. So losing attributes is not an option no more then not reimbursing the sp you invested. If you wish to pay the real price dont accept reimbursement. You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you want those who havent trained skills to take a hit for the team you have to be willing to do the same....its only fair.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:17:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ranger 1 I support removing learning skills if...
1: People that trained learning skills are reimbursed the points they spent.
2: All attributes are set back to their original (non-learning skill enhanced) levels.
It's the only way to make it fair for everyone.
What's that you say? You don't like that option at all? You want all of the perks but none of the price?
Yeah, thats pretty much what I thought. Stop trying to remove choices that have consequences from EVE.
Learn to think ahead.
This is a poor attempt at reverse psychology that's based on a false premise. The reverse psychology is painfully obvious to anybody over the age of 6, so I'm just going to base on the false premise.
The false premise here is that removing learning skills outright would be fair on everyone.
Removing learning skills and replacing them with corresponding bonuses would be fair because everybody gets raised up to an equal level; Nobody loses anything.
Removing learning skills without redeeming them serves to hurt every single person who did not invest in learning skills. In other words, it would make learning skills retroactively MORE significant, not less.
Learning skills aren't a choice, they're an ultimatum. You either suffer early on, or you suffer more later on.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:32:00 -
[48]
Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...
...
... because why again exactly?
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Aiwha
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:39:00 -
[49]
I would definitely enjoy this.
But I doubt it will happen.
I cannot heal stupid. |
Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:39:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...
...
... because why again exactly?
WHAT PLAN?
Here is the best plan for learning skills: Get them before you do anything else. The order in which you get the learning skills can probably be maximized.
There is no gaming in this. There is no challenge in this. There is no careful thought or planning in this. If you do not do this, you will suffer a penalty. You will suffer a penalty directly proportional to how long you choose not to do this. And new players find this out, and they realize, hey, this kind of sucks, being forced to not play the game for a month if I want the best benefits. I think I'll leave and play a different game.
Then we get the elitists who turn up their noses.
Oh, you're not willing to suffer? Well perhaps our game is too good for you!
No. Wrong. There is no elitism. This is an MMO, a community based game. The lifeblood of this MMO, of any MMO, is the new users. Without new users, we die. If we exclude new users, we die.
Exclusion is death.
Exclusion is death.
Exclusion is death.
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Vossejongk
Caldari Bendebeukers Green Rhino
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:50:00 -
[51]
Exclusion is death.
Now repeats itsself in my head for the rest of this day. ----------------------------------------------- EVE Gate:
Originally by: Simeon Tor
Soon you'll be saying "Eve has a client?"
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:52:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 17:52:06
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Ranger 1 Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...
...
... because why again exactly?
WHAT PLAN?
Here is the best plan for learning skills: Get them before you do anything else. The order in which you get the learning skills can probably be maximized.
There is no gaming in this. There is no challenge in this. There is no careful thought or planning in this. If you do not do this, you will suffer a penalty. You will suffer a penalty directly proportional to how long you choose not to do this. And new players find this out, and they realize, hey, this kind of sucks, being forced to not play the game for a month if I want the best benefits. I think I'll leave and play a different game.
Then we get the elitists who turn up their noses.
Oh, you're not willing to suffer? Well perhaps our game is too good for you!
No. Wrong. There is no elitism. This is an MMO, a community based game. The lifeblood of this MMO, of any MMO, is the new users. Without new users, we die. If we exclude new users, we die.
Exclusion is death.
Exclusion is death.
Exclusion is death.
There's a penalty on people who skip learning skills?
Wrong.
People who train learning skills get a BONUS. Over the BASELINE.
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Bevil Smyth
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:56:00 -
[53]
I hope that they do remove them, they are honestly one of the biggest put offs for EVE imho, having to explain to friends who take the trial why they have to train skills that appear to do literally nothing when they wanna be doing exciting things instead.
sucky game design there (no offence). huzzah for the removal if it happens! ============================ 2003 and still alive! |
Vossejongk
Caldari Bendebeukers Green Rhino
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Posted - 2010.06.30 17:56:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Vossejongk on 30/06/2010 17:56:54
Originally by: Alia Corrino
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Deizel 1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
YES!!
Originally by: Deizel Further changes: 4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
NO!!!! Revmoval of learning skills is very nice already. Even if it's at the expense of the double speed training time!
+1
Learning skills are silly. Every time I think about getting an alt the month of learning skills puts me off entirely again.
I highly doubt anyone would be disappointed if learning skills were removed and we were given the total SP invested (around 2 million-ish for 5/4 I think). The only thing is the cost of the skill books, but I'm sure everyone would manage.
Having done lvl 5 on all rank 3's and on 2 of the rank 3's i surely expect back more then 2 million SP ^^.. more like 3.5 million... Edit: I also added the 100k free SP to Eidetic Memory so I'd like that back as well :P ----------------------------------------------- EVE Gate:
Originally by: Simeon Tor
Soon you'll be saying "Eve has a client?"
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:02:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Spades Slick People who train learning skills get a BONUS. Over the BASELINE.
No no, you forget this is the MMO crowd. Not having a bonus is a penalty...
And the planning part is do I spend time so I can spend less time in the future... it's almost like school. You can get a job now and earn money, or go to school and start earning money later, but you'll earn more. And unlikely the real world in EVE it's actually gauranteed that you'll earn more.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:04:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 30/06/2010 18:06:51 How ever you want to put it the wall of learning skills is a barrer between new players and advancement. Removing learning skills and so increasing the train rates of new characters and removing skills that you need to train if you plan to stick with the game but don't effect any other aspect of you character is a great thing.
Some people have zero issue with learning skills for others like me it was a huge turn off from playing Eve for a while. Removing learning skills speeds up the new player experience and lessens the perceived entry barrier to sticking with Eve. With the new sp allocation system the perfect way to reward players that have trained them while removing the skills from the game is available. I don't know any players who love learning skills and think that they add to the player experience but I do know a lot of players who hate them and wish they had never made it into Eve.
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Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:13:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
Right. Have another hit, bro.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:15:00 -
[58]
all they need to do to help the newbies from beeing gimped compared to rich players alts is to start players with lvl 1 first tier learning skills at lvl 3, and make the tier 2 books be a reward that is immediately injected after the completion of a few dozen level 1 missions.
22 million is a fortune that would take months for a true noob but its barely an inconvenience for long term players. Needing to do 2 hours of lvl 1s to get the books would be a barrier to disposable alt creation...turning the scales.
This would give pretty much 80% of the benefit to new players with not much more than a day of training to get the tier two skills up to lvl 3 but would still leave the intersting choices of cake now or more cake later when deciding whether to do lvl t2swhich take 100 days to break even and t1lvl 5's
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:25:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: Spades Slick People who train learning skills get a BONUS. Over the BASELINE.
No no, you forget this is the MMO crowd. Not having a bonus is a penalty...
And the planning part is do I spend time so I can spend less time in the future... it's almost like school. You can get a job now and earn money, or go to school and start earning money later, but you'll earn more. And unlikely the real world in EVE it's actually gauranteed that you'll earn more.
So the best way to play Eve in the first few months is to...not play Eve?
And on the bonus/penalty thing. When Wow was first released they had a system where your character would get a -50% xp penalty after earning a certain amount, and this penalty would go away if you spent time logged out at an inn. It was designed as an anti-grinding measure. Naturally it was very unpopular.
So, the designers changed the -50% penalty to a +100% XP bonus that went away after a while, and came back gradually when you were logged out. Naturally everyone thought this was a much better idea, because who doesn't love bonus xp.
Of course the designers also doubled the required XP to gain each new level, but fewer people noticed that...
Learning skills are basically the same. Some people see them as a bonus to training speed once they have them. Other people recognise that until they get the skills, they're training at a penalty.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:31:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Spades Slick There's a penalty on people who skip learning skills?
Wrong.
People who train learning skills get a BONUS. Over the BASELINE.
I do not challenge your proposition that learning skills are a bonus to the baseline.
I propose instead that the baseline is completely irrelevant.
You assume that the penalty I'm speaking of is explicit. It isn't. It's an implicit one that spawns from Eve's competitive nature. It's not explicit, but it's certainly there, and it's certainly significant.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:31:00 -
[61]
The odds of them doing it were better before everyone started talking about it. Now i wouldn't be surprised if they delay it a few months just because everyone is insisting they do it. CCP wouldn't be that petty though, right?
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Sully Tude
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:34:00 -
[62]
While I can symphasize with both sides here, I have to agree more with the "remove them" crowd.
A short time ago, back when I was a wee nooblet, one day of training seemed like FOREVER. I purposely bought up new skill books and kept training skills that only took at most 24 hours just so I'd have new toys to play with each day when I got home from work (I also did nothing but lose isk my first month, but I digress...)
It wasn't until well after I lost that 100% training speed bonus that I sat down and actually planned out what ships I wanted and trained the learning skills up. If I had started with them right from the start, as must be done to get the most optimal training plan, I probably wouldn't have stuck with the game. I'm probably several weeks behind where I would be had I done it "the right way."
Nowadays I start a skill training on my alts only to turn around and say "holy ****, Mining Barge 5 is done already?"
If new players are able to have fun without feeling like they're suffering because of it, they're more likely to stick with the game, in my opinion.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:34:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/06/2010 18:36:48
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Ranger 1 Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...
...
... because why again exactly?
WHAT PLAN?
Here is the best plan for learning skills: Get them before you do anything else. The order in which you get the learning skills can probably be maximized.
There is no gaming in this. There is no challenge in this. There is no careful thought or planning in this. If you do not do this, you will suffer a penalty. You will suffer a penalty directly proportional to how long you choose not to do this. And new players find this out, and they realize, hey, this kind of sucks, being forced to not play the game for a month if I want the best benefits. I think I'll leave and play a different game.
Then we get the elitists who turn up their noses.
Oh, you're not willing to suffer? Well perhaps our game is too good for you!
No. Wrong. There is no elitism. This is an MMO, a community based game. The lifeblood of this MMO, of any MMO, is the new users. Without new users, we die. If we exclude new users, we die.
Exclusion is death.
Exclusion is death.
Exclusion is death.
Now things become crystal clear, you don't understand the strategy behind learning skills so you claim there is none.
If you are trying out the game but aren't sure if it is for you, train the skills that help you immediately. If you decide you are going to stick with the game, start picking off learning skills here and there to help you long term. If you are familiar with the game and want a quick specialty alt, forget learning skills on that alt. If you are familiar with the game and are building up what will be a long term character on another account or possibly a cap ship alt with other support skills, train learning skills first.
It only requires some forethought.
Instant gratification is not of primary importance in EVE.
Edit: Also, using some of the arguments I have seen here one could also just as easily say that anything other than training level 5 in a skill is a waste of time. Remove level 1-4 completely, they serve no purpose other than a time sink.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:37:00 -
[64]
It is indeed a penalty. Another option would be if at least the advanced learning skills were removed and a +5 base stat was added to characters.
While you might not have a problem with them personally a lot of people do. Once some of my friends found out about learning skills it completely turned them off of the game. In one of their words "Having to spend a month's sub doing nothing but training skills so I learn skills as fast as you do is f'ing dumb."
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Mrs Kleo
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:42:00 -
[65]
Learning skills are a terrible aspect of Eve. Its just about the most newbie unfriendly thing you could add - forcing new players to spend days/weeks making no tangible progress while they tick away at learning skills versus training a fun skill, but knowing that you are gimping your character long term.
If CCP refunds learning skills and boosts player attributes, we'll probably get a free stat reallocation too.
The main point is that getting rid of learning skills would make this game more newbie friendly. So, yeah, do this by your winter expansion when you get your next big influx of players and eve goes on steam sale again.
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Hemp Invader
GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:45:00 -
[66]
If CCP does this move, it will be the best economic move they will ever make. Why? i) new players like a dynamic game, where you can experiment stuff ii) you can't tell someone: "Hey, you f*g, welcome to the game, now wait for one month before you can undock or do something and you can't complain either cuz we're in charge, now suck it up and live with it!"
These two things added together make profit.
My opinion is that the sooner they do this, the more they will get from converting euros and dolla's to ISK.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 18:57:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Now things become crystal clear, you don't understand the strategy behind learning skills so you claim there is none.
If you are trying out the game but aren't sure if it is for you, train the skills that help you immediately. If you decide you are going to stick with the game, start picking off learning skills here and there to help you long term. If you are familiar with the game and want a quick specialty alt, forget learning skills on that alt. If you are familiar with the game and are building up what will be a long term character on another account or possibly a cap ship alt with other support skills, train learning skills first.
Deciding if I'm going to sit down and play a game of chess is not a strategy for playing a game of chess.
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Cat IntheBox
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:02:00 -
[68]
Could a representative of the development team please make a CCP standing on this speculation? I ask because the people obsessed with removing LS are not stopping with the escalation, and I'm in the middle of training cybernetics 5 and the rest of advanced LS to 5.
If a developer could at least take a second to address this anxiety campaign on the forum then I'd know whether or not to abandon the rest of the skillplan.
KTHX.
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:04:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14 Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.
Umm... no, you don't.
There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:08:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14 Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.
Umm... no, you don't.
There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.
Based on your analogy the person who skips the passive will get his face stomped into the ground by the guy who has passive+fireball.
Just sayin'.
Orca Pilot Sale |
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Hemp Invader
GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:10:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14 Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.
Umm... no, you don't.
There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.
Learning skills are MANDATORY...that's the problem. There is no choice here, none what so ever. You can give us bull**** about freedom of choice and all, but it's like choosing between life as a king or life as a peasant and we all know what everyone would choose.
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:11:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 19:13:27 This was my guess as to what the skill point allocation thing would be used for. I really hope it's what they do.
While I can understand what CCP was going for when it comes to the learning skills, it just doesn't work in the real world. It puts noobs in the position of having to train useful skills as a slow pace so they can at least do something "fun" or they have to spend a month plus training learning skills.
Anyone that cries about a change like this happening would a one bitter mofo. Hell I'd even be for the change even if I didn't get the wasted SP's back.
Also to the bitter vet crowd that cries about not having this or that when you started.. Well you also didn't have to try to compete with all the various things that have been added to the game since you started.
While yea there are some things that might be easier now for noob, there are also many things that are much harder. Also lets not forget this game is supposed to be about having fun and there is nothing fun about spending a month plus training "learning skills.
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Cat IntheBox
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:14:00 -
[73]
I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.
And also to anyone: does LS removal also essentially remove attribute implants as well?
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:16:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Cat IntheBox I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.
I would be very surprised if CCP would do such a large change at the moment, especially when their attention isn't really on Eve
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:16:00 -
[75]
Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: Cat IntheBox I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.
I would be very surprised if CCP would do such a large change at the moment, especially when their attention isn't really on Eve
It's not really large.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. |
Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:17:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Cat IntheBox I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.
And also to anyone: does LS removal also essentially remove attribute implants as well?
Honestly, "Removal" is a misnomer. What people are really aiming for is Learning Skill Obselesence: That learning skills should be removed, the bonuses they provide distributed equally to everybody, and the skill points invested in them placed in the SP pool for redistribution.
Implants don't qualify because there's a risk involved in using them; an actual gameplay decision. Other skills don't qualify for the same treatment because every other skill has non-meta influence over your character. Two characters with identical skills except for learning are two characters with identical abilities. -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice. |
Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:18:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Hemp Invader
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14 Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.
Umm... no, you don't.
There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.
Learning skills are MANDATORY...that's the problem. There is no choice here, none what so ever. You can give us bull**** about freedom of choice and all, but it's like choosing between life as a king or life as a peasant and we all know what everyone would choose.
IF you're planning to train a hauling alt you might stop at 3 million or 6million sp depeendin on what ships you needed and how quickly you wanted to get back to trainin another character on the same account.
You wouldn't train all the skills to the highest level... it depends on what your goal is and whether the expenditure makes sense.
You also have opportunity cost...too if you want a cyno alt in a couple weeks etc.
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XIII'th
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:18:00 -
[78]
and then ccp will nerf
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:19:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:22:49 Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:21:51
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14 Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.
Umm... no, you don't.
There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.
Based on your analogy the person who skips the passive will get his face stomped into the ground by the guy who has passive+fireball.
Just sayin'.
... your point? So people who train supplementary skills get a benefit... I don't see the problem here.
Originally by: Hemp Invader
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14 Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.
Umm... no, you don't.
There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.
Learning skills are MANDATORY...that's the problem. There is no choice here, none what so ever. You can give us bull**** about freedom of choice and all, but it's like choosing between life as a king or life as a peasant and we all know what everyone would choose.
No. They aren't mandatory. Nothing is forcing you to train learning skills at all. You can go out missioning as soon as you want. Be in a good-fit Cruiser or BC within a month or so (if you prioritize right), run L4s with other people, and be as rich. Have a decent tackler within 2 or so weeks, so there's your PVP people. The loss in your training time without learning skills is only really evident after several months of playing. Until then, you don't have that much of a disadvantage.
Please create an alt, then make some extravagant 4 or 5 month plan for it in EVEMon. Follow its learning skill suggestions. It doesn't tell you to train up to L5 in all learning skills, just to like 3/2 or something equally manageable (less than a week of training, which can be interspersed with combat, Ewar, etc. skills). The returns are diminishing until you start talking about people who plan to be here for years -- and those who do have the patience to do learning skills.
This is a false dilemma. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma . You claim that one only has two choices: skip the learning skills and inexplicably be unable to play EVE, or learn them and be uber. Unfortunately for your claim, it's possible to be decent without learning skills, and you can have crappy management skills after you finish learning and not be good at anything.
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Cat IntheBox
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:19:00 -
[80]
Quote: It's not really large.
This would actually be the most profound gameplay change in several years. Strictly talking gameplay, not feature introduction (PI, etc) or hardware (T3 ships, etc), but essential game mechanics.
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Hemp Invader
GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:19:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Cat IntheBox I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.
And also to anyone: does LS removal also essentially remove attribute implants as well?
Don't count on a dev reply in this thread till: a)it reaches the 21st page b)they post on all the other threads except this one(/me looks at the planetary interaction exploit thing thread)
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:25:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14 Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.
Umm... no, you don't.
There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.
Based on your analogy the person who skips the passive will get his face stomped into the ground by the guy who has passive+fireball.
Just sayin'.
... your point? So people who train supplementary skills get a benefit... I don't see the problem here.
Well... then by your analogy they ARE mandatory.
Unless you're stupid and/or like losing.
I'm really not arguing either/or just going by your analogy tbh.
Orca Pilot Sale |
JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:26:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Jasdemi It's not really large.
Yeah cos all it involves is deleting a few database entries, rite?
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:28:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 30/06/2010 19:29:29
Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: Jasdemi It's not really large.
Yeah cos all it involves is deleting a few database entries, rite?
+ adding few skill points to their new, awesome skill points pool!
PS: I even reported this thread several times, but no dev wants to respond. :(
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. |
Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:30:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14 Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.
Umm... no, you don't.
There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.
Based on your analogy the person who skips the passive will get his face stomped into the ground by the guy who has passive+fireball.
Just sayin'.
... your point? So people who train supplementary skills get a benefit... I don't see the problem here.
Well... then by your analogy they ARE mandatory.
Unless you're stupid and/or like losing.
I'm really not arguing either/or just going by your analogy tbh.
Goddamn. How many times do I have to say it?
Quote: No. They aren't mandatory. Nothing is forcing you to train learning skills at all. You can go out missioning as soon as you want. Be in a good-fit Cruiser or BC within a month or so (if you prioritize right), run L4s with other people, and be as rich. Have a decent tackler within 2 or so weeks, so there's your PVP people. The loss in your training time without learning skills is only really evident after several months of playing. Until then, you don't have that much of a disadvantage.
Please create an alt, then make some extravagant 4 or 5 month plan for it in EVEMon. Follow its learning skill suggestions. It doesn't tell you to train up to L5 in all learning skills, just to like 4/2 or something equally manageable (less than a week of training, which can be interspersed with combat, Ewar, etc. skills). The returns are diminishing until you start talking about people who plan to be here for years -- and those who do have the patience to do learning skills.
It's a win/win. People who don't have the patience can level up to be leet tacklers quickly with their 1.6 mil 100% bonus. People with moderate patience will use EVEMon and just train what they need for their goals. People who plan on being here for years don't particularly care about the learning skills, because it's one month out of dozens.
Please stop claiming that it's "mandatory". It's not. I've explained exactly why. Even a few levels (say, to 3) of the tier 1 learning skills would take maybe 2 days of training, with the 100% bonus. Whenever I see a skill on my sheet that I can add one or two levels to for only a few hours of training, I add it; it makes sense overall.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:37:00 -
[86]
Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.
Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:41:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Mathias Black Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.
Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.
So when can I collect?
Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.
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Cat IntheBox
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:49:00 -
[88]
Quote:
So when can I collect?
Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.
^
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:53:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.
Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.
So when can I collect?
Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.
Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:57:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.
Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.
So when can I collect?
Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.
Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.
You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.
Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.06.30 19:59:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.
Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.
So when can I collect?
Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.
Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.
You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.
Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose.
There are implants ingame, no?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:02:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:58:58
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.
Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.
So when can I collect?
Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.
Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.
You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.
Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose. That commitment is part of the 'strategy of EVE' I am discussing -- the idea that your character should be good at few things, but very good at those things; or a mediocre 'jack of all trades'. People who want to be in the higher-level roles -- commanders, black ops, marauders, cap-drivers, etc. -- will say, "okay, I'll train learning skills so that when I enter the second year of my skill plan, I've saved a month on training overall!"
But anyone CAN do it already - your argument is terrible
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:04:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Spades Slick
You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.
Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose.
I'm still not sure what you're talking about... pretty much EVERYONE who plays Eve trains ALL the learning skills to 4/4 or 5/4 or somewhere close, mostly in their first month or so as a noob. It's in every newbie guide, on the official wiki, repeated over and over in rookie help, suggested by every older player, etc. Everyone except brand new players already have ALL the Learning skills. You're not special by having them. Everybody already trains command ships and everything else at the fast speed. All that removing the Learning skills would do is cut out the first month you have to spend as a noob training the learning skills. Everything else remains exactly the same.
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:08:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 20:14:38
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Spades Slick So when can I collect?
Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.
Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.
You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.
Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose.
There are implants ingame, no?
Quote: (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements)
And surely, because you have to commit to grinding to get the ISK to be able to afford them and you have to train Cybernetics to use them, they're evil like Learning Skills anyways? Because anything that remotely resembles tedium (even if it has a purpose) seems to be the antichrist in you and your fellow anti-learning-skills-ists' minds.
Quote: I'm still not sure what you're talking about... pretty much EVERYONE who plays Eve trains ALL the learning skills to 4/4 or 5/4 or somewhere close, mostly in their first month or so as a noob. It's in every newbie guide, on the official wiki, repeated over and over in rookie help, suggested by every older player, etc. Everyone except brand new players already have ALL the Learning skills. You're not special by having them. Everybody already trains command ships and everything else at the fast speed. All that removing the Learning skills would do is cut out the first month you have to spend as a noob training the learning skills. Everything else remains exactly the same.
No, see, general statements don't work. You can't say, "pretty much" or "mostly". The guides recommend it, sure, but they are suggestions. NOTHING IS FORCING YOU TO DO LEARNING SKILLS. Period. End of sentence. You can choose to skip them. For an impatient person who just wants to shoot his guns faster, they train up their gunnery skills and ignore the learning skills. They get to combat-readiness in the early stages faster than those who do train in learning, but their inability to consider outside their one-month box means that they lose momentum after several months. There is nothing unfair about this. They get to become active fighters (or miners, or salvagers, or traders, or industrialists) faster than the players who train learning skills... but then the people who did learning skills will train faster after years of playing.
Patience is rewarded in this realm, just like anywhere else in EVE, okay? Trading requires you plop your ass in station and hope someone buys your stock. Industry requires you to wait for stuff to build. Even getting better missions requires you to spend time doing missions for standing. EVE is a game of patience. Learning skills are just another facet of this overarching philosophy. Don't like waiting? EVE is not for you.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:09:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 30/06/2010 20:15:59 Learning skills are not required but they are necessary for anyone primary character. Any new player who is making their main quickly figures out that training the learning skills is the best thing they can do to affect their characters long term development. At this point they have two options. They can spend time advancing their characters learning skills or they can gimp themselves in the long run.
While they are not a requirement they are a crap option. Anyone who wants to stick with the game has to have them to advance at a decent rate. Sure your low skill alts don't need them. Your specialize characters don't need them or at least all of them. Any new player working on his only account feels (and properly) that they do need them. They need 20+ million isk and over a month worth of sub time to get them. Neither of which a new player is as willing and able to dedicate to the game as a already invested vet. So since learning skills don't affect vets as much as noobs you argue that they should stay in game? CCP knows that the learning skills are a mistake and a barrier to new players. I find it amusing to watch people attempt to defend them.
Implants are not learning skills. They offer a risk vs reward for having them in your head vs getting podded and training cybernetics gives you access to implants that just don't effect your learning speed. The restrictive aspect of implants is far more Isk related then time related. No one is saying that the fix for learning skills is that they need to remove the price of the books. Even if they gave every one cybernetics 5 people would still not all run around with +5 implants. I am not hearing calls for them to be removed and i have never heard CCP say that they were a mistake.
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:14:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes Learning skills are not required but they are necessary for anyone primary character. Any new player who is making their main quickly figures out that training the learning skills is the best thing they can do to affect their characters long term development. At this point they have two options. They can spend time advancing their characters learning skills or they can gimp themselves in the long run.
While they are not a requirement they are a crap option. Anyone who wants to stick with the game has to have them to advance at a decent rate. Sure your low skill alts don't need them. Your specialize characters don't need them or at least all of them. Any new player working on his only account feels (and properly) that they do need them. They need 20+ million isk and over a month worth of sub time to get them. Neither of which a new player is as willing and able to dedicate to the game as a already invested vet. So since learning skills don't affect vets as much as noobs you argue that they should stay in game? CCP knows that the learning skills are a mistake and a barrier to new players. I find it amusing to watch people attempt to defend them.
It's called bitter vet syndrome. They are mad because new players will have something a bit easier than they got it. Despite the fact that it affects them in no way and only makes the game more enjoyable for more people.
Instead they are just like grumpy old farts that are mad at the new younger people living in their neighborhood.
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:16:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 20:16:55 Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 20:16:40
Originally by: Ralnik
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes Learning skills are not required but they are necessary for anyone primary character. Any new player who is making their main quickly figures out that training the learning skills is the best thing they can do to affect their characters long term development. At this point they have two options. They can spend time advancing their characters learning skills or they can gimp themselves in the long run.
While they are not a requirement they are a crap option. Anyone who wants to stick with the game has to have them to advance at a decent rate. Sure your low skill alts don't need them. Your specialize characters don't need them or at least all of them. Any new player working on his only account feels (and properly) that they do need them. They need 20+ million isk and over a month worth of sub time to get them. Neither of which a new player is as willing and able to dedicate to the game as a already invested vet. So since learning skills don't affect vets as much as noobs you argue that they should stay in game? CCP knows that the learning skills are a mistake and a barrier to new players. I find it amusing to watch people attempt to defend them.
It's called bitter vet syndrome. They are mad because new players will have something a bit easier than they got it. Despite the fact that it affects them in no way and only makes the game more enjoyable for more people.
Instead they are just like grumpy old farts that are mad at the new younger people living in their neighborhood.
That's funny because my toon's only 3 months old. No, wait, 2 and a half.
Yeah, I'm a 'bitter vet', all right.
I'm probably younger than any of you.
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Sith LordX
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:47:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Your word means nothing.
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:49:00 -
[99]
Must say I'm lol-ing at people actually defending learning skills.
I do hope they move forward with removing them from the game. We would get a sizable amount of SP back and new players can focus on the different aspects of the game without having to decide in the first 2 months whether they will play this game for the next 2 years to benefit from advanced learning skills. -----------------------------------
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Redpoppy
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:52:00 -
[100]
"We're doing it for the newbie !!" lmao
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:54:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 20:56:23
Originally by: Spades Slick
EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?
WTF are you crying about. I didn't call you any names or even reply to you. I merely committed on the typical "bitter vet" stance, that always comes out of these topics.
It's always the same, wha wha wha, "I had to do it so you should too" mentality. Well I did it too, I trained all my learning skills and I would love to see them go away even if I didn't get jack **** in return.
I don't care if your 3 months old and 5 years into the game..The learning skills are bad for the game and it mainly only hurts "new" players.. Not "new" alts of older players.
New players don't have the option to sit their new alt in a station for 2 months ship spinning doing learning skills.
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:57:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Ralnik Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 20:55:34
Originally by: Spades Slick
EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?
WTF are you crying about. I didn't call you any names or even reply to you. I merely committed on the typical "bitter vet" stance, that always comes out of these topics.
It's always the same, wha wha wha, "I had to do it so you should too" mentality. Well I did it too, I training all my learning skills and I would love to see them go away even if I didn't get jack **** in return.
I don't care if your 3 months old and 5 years into the game..The learning skills are bad for the game and it mainly only hurts "new" players.. Not "new" alts of older players.
New players don't have the option to sit their new alt in a station for 2 months ship spinning doing learning skills.
No. This is my main, a two-month old, 3.5mil SP toon. I am a 'new player'. And I support learning skills.
I know, it's hard for you to process this information.
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:59:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Ralnik Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 20:55:34
Originally by: Spades Slick
EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?
WTF are you crying about. I didn't call you any names or even reply to you. I merely committed on the typical "bitter vet" stance, that always comes out of these topics.
It's always the same, wha wha wha, "I had to do it so you should too" mentality. Well I did it too, I training all my learning skills and I would love to see them go away even if I didn't get jack **** in return.
I don't care if your 3 months old and 5 years into the game..The learning skills are bad for the game and it mainly only hurts "new" players.. Not "new" alts of older players.
New players don't have the option to sit their new alt in a station for 2 months ship spinning doing learning skills.
No. This is my main, a two-month old, 3.5mil SP toon. I am a 'new player'. And I support learning skills.
I know, it's hard for you to process this information.
Have you done learning skills?
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:06:00 -
[104]
Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Ralnik Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 20:55:34
Originally by: Spades Slick
EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?
WTF are you crying about. I didn't call you any names or even reply to you. I merely committed on the typical "bitter vet" stance, that always comes out of these topics.
It's always the same, wha wha wha, "I had to do it so you should too" mentality. Well I did it too, I training all my learning skills and I would love to see them go away even if I didn't get jack **** in return.
I don't care if your 3 months old and 5 years into the game..The learning skills are bad for the game and it mainly only hurts "new" players.. Not "new" alts of older players.
New players don't have the option to sit their new alt in a station for 2 months ship spinning doing learning skills.
No. This is my main, a two-month old, 3.5mil SP toon. I am a 'new player'. And I support learning skills.
I know, it's hard for you to process this information.
Have you done learning skills?
Does this answer your question?
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Rebal 88
Minmatar INGEN Industries The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:09:00 -
[105]
I would like this. |
Mrs Kleo
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:13:00 -
[106]
Spades slick hasn't actually presented any argument other than pointing out that learning skills exist and therefor should continue to do so.
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:14:00 -
[107]
+1 support for OP's plan.
Learning skills were a mistake and should be removed.
Proposal is a fair and workable solution.
Make it happen CCP.
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:14:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Spades Slick
Does this answer your question?
So in reality, you'd only be annoyed because you've done some and if learning skills were removed, you'd no longer have a one-up on some other new players. Pathetic.
I've been playing for years and having put multiple characters through 5/4 learnings skills, I would be happy if they removed them completely. It certainly wouldn't benefit me, but it would benefit new players who already have enough 'necessary' skills to train to approach usefullness i.e. electronics, engineering
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:24:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 21:26:01 Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 21:25:09
Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: Spades Slick
Does this answer your question?
So in reality, you'd only be annoyed because you've done some and if learning skills were removed, you'd no longer have a one-up on some other new players. Pathetic.
I've been playing for years and having put multiple characters through 5/4 learnings skills, I would be happy if they removed them completely. It certainly wouldn't benefit me, but it would benefit new players who already have enough 'necessary' skills to train to approach usefullness i.e. electronics, engineering
... what?
Goddamn, will you people address my points? Or are you just going to try to make these personal jabs that accomplish nothing but make you look like a petty kid?
Yes, I'd have a one-up on other people, just like people who are willing to do .01 ISK price wars in Jita can make it rich, or pour points into astrosurveying and salvaging to go ninja. And? I stand to lose nothing from the learning skills being canceled! -- I get my SP back, put them wherever I want, and I should be happy, right?!?
Wrong.
I don't think like any of you impatient, skill***** people who are so demanding and gimme-what-I-want-now! -- I WANT this to be a game where you have to think, plan, look before you leap so to speak. I LIKE having all the impatient kids who came here from WoW being rooted out during their trials because they don't like the thought of (gasp!) being PATIENT. It sets EVE apart... and removing learning skills is just another step towards making EVE into another mass-produced MMO lightshow with no substance whatsoever, but to show off how big your e-peen is.
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:36:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Spades Slick
... what?
Goddamn, will you people address my points? Or are you just going to try to make these personal jabs that accomplish nothing but make you look like a petty kid?
Originally by: "Mrs Kleo" Spades slick hasn't actually presented any argument other than pointing out that learning skills exist and therefor should continue to do so.
The rest of his posts are character attacks and some straw man rant about implants.
The skill tree will still work to weed out the impatients as you wish it to. They still have to wait years to be in capitals or months to be in battleships. Removing learning skills takes out an aspect of training where you aren't actually training for any ship or role, you're training so you don't have to train as long later. They are an unnecessary barrier to EVE that could easily be removed and the gameplay wouldn't change while giving benefits to players new and old. They are widely regarded as a nuissance and aren't necessary to keep since the training plans still take long periods of time out for characters to specialize into their roles. -----------------------------------
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Taxesarebad
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:41:00 -
[111]
steps 1-3 are great, but allocat 900k sp instantly is stupid, that means instantly i can make a char that is able to fly frigs and be pvp ready go kill things in lowsec, or suicide gank or w/e in a dessie, delete char and repeat keep the same 1.6mil double training speed, but remove learning skills so the bonus speed isnt wasted on them
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RedLion
Caldari State Constructions
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:41:00 -
[112]
i like my learning skills. I invested so much in them!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
Redpoppy
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:44:00 -
[113]
the CSM and their alts must be behind this insistent anti-learning uprising on the forum.
maybe one day they'll realize they're doing more harm than good by rocketing up the uncertainty in the "precious newbies" current skill plans.
suddenly newbies > game philosophy > God
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:45:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 21:45:39
Originally by: Spades Slick
No. This is my main, a two-month old, 3.5mil SP toon. I am a 'new player'. And I support learning skills, for the reasons I have given several times now. You don't want to be patient or plan strategically? That's fine. That's one person who, when I'm rolling in a fully L5'd T3 Cruiser (or maybe they'll have something even better by then) a year from now, will be bawwing on this forum because the mean old player who skilltanked was able to smash his impatient, shallow-thinking ass into the ground.
I know, it's hard for you to process this information.
Ok for "aruments" sake I'll bite.
What exactly is having my current 1,9 mil SP in learning going to do for me when I meet you in your "level V" strat cruiser?
Learning skills have nothing to do with strategy or ship fits. They only take time out of your skill plan by reducing training time yet require time to train.
oh and don't lecture me about being impatient.. You are looking at a toon that just turned 1 year old and sat in the station training learning skills his first month and a half.
Not to mention the fact that he has almost 2 mil SP's in Electronics, 4 mil in Engineering, 3,5 mil in mechanic, 2,6 mil in navigation.
Not to mention cybernetics V, Drone interfacing V and the only T2 ships he can fly are stealth bombers and Assault Frigs. Other than that he flys T1 BC's, Cruisers and frigs.
He is damn sure not half assed on his support skills if that's what you are trying to imply and I wouldn't even think of flying a strat cruiser in PVP in my first year.
Yet where in all this does making you train learning skills vs giving them to you matter other than the 2 months it takes to train them?
Please explain how spending a extra 2 months to train learning skills helps your strategy, vs CCP getting rid of them altogether.
Everyone benefits from this yet people still want to whine..
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:46:00 -
[115]
Ok, I said something close above but I can make it even more simple...middle ground.
Start everyone with lvl 4 first tier skills and lvl 3 second tier skills.
That is 9 + days of training for a new charcter and the 22 million in books is really a fotune for new players but a pitance for alts or players with friends...completely unbalanced. 9 days of training doesn't mean a lot a year into the game but it does mean a lot to someone interested in starting.
With 70% of the benefit and for all practical purposes mor like 75% or 80% of what all but the most die hard players commited to multi year plans would op for, there would be very little harm done.
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Redpoppy
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:49:00 -
[116]
the only "harm done" in the first place was in your heads.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:51:00 -
[117]
The sooner learning skills will be gone, the better.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:53:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 30/06/2010 21:56:44 Took a shower, gathered my thoughts.
I keep going over this in my head, and I can't wrap my head around why people would argue for learning skills; Be their motives selfish or selfless, there is no good reason for hanging onto them.
If you're selfish, the benefits are obvious: Maxed training time and a pile of free skill points. Newbies that come in late are going to train faster, but they'll still never surpass you, and you'll probably never surpass the people who came in before you anyway, so in that sense it's pretty much null.
If you're selfless, the benefits are even more obvious; Learning skills drive away newbie players. This is clearly observable. Anybody who has learning skills explained to them can deduce that learning skills are more of an ultimatum than a choice. You can decline to learn them, but it'll only harm you in the long run. Most new players find this out, and when they do, they leave. We don't gain anything out of this. Our community doesn't remain more "pure" or "hardcore". No new player should have to go through this. I shouldn't have had to go through this. You shouldn't have had to go through this. The guy signing up tomorrow shouldn't have to, either. Why make him?
There is, of course, a cost. We would lose some depth. But this depth only pertains to advancement speed; Pilot abilities would still maintain the same spectrum of depth, and advancement speed would still be customizable to an extent via implants and neural remaps.
So ask yourself: Are learning skills really worth the damage they do?
Edit:
Also, here's a fun fact for those claiming that increasing the training time creates an "instant gratification universe":
I have level 4 learning skills across the board (and Learning 5) as well as level 4 implants.
It will take me over a month to get Advanced Weapon Upgrades from level 4 to level 5.
A month.
A month, for a 2% reduction in powergrid needs.
This month can't be sped up or bypassed.
There are games where you can max out characters in half that time. Are we really, honestly, seriously worried about Eve becoming an instant gratification game? -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice. |
Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:53:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Saehta
Originally by: Spades Slick
... what?
Goddamn, will you people address my points? Or are you just going to try to make these personal jabs that accomplish nothing but make you look like a petty kid?
Originally by: "Mrs Kleo" Spades slick hasn't actually presented any argument other than pointing out that learning skills exist and therefor should continue to do so.
The rest of his posts are character attacks and some straw man rant about implants.
The skill tree will still work to weed out the impatients as you wish it to. They still have to wait years to be in capitals or months to be in battleships. Removing learning skills takes out an aspect of training where you aren't actually training for any ship or role, you're training so you don't have to train as long later. They are an unnecessary barrier to EVE that could easily be removed and the gameplay wouldn't change while giving benefits to players new and old. They are widely regarded as a nuissance and aren't necessary to keep since the training plans still take long periods of time out for characters to specialize into their roles.
No strawmans from me. Please quote them where you see them, and I'll gladly refer you to the posts where everyone calls me a 'grizzled vet who's angry at the idea of losing his advantage' (except I'm not) or says I'm 'pathetic because I have learning skills and I want to hold my advantage over other people' (nothing stopping other people from learning them, nothing stopping them from skipping them. If Learning Skills were canceled, since I am so young a character, I really stand to lose nothing from the change... and yet still I debate it. Why? Read my posts to figure it out for yourself). The implants are a null point -- since you all apparently find learning skills to be so useless because of their tedium, surely you find implants the same because you have to grind missions to get enough ISK to afford them? If you DON'T find mission-grinding for ISK tedious, that makes your central pillar of "LEARNING SKILLS TAKE TOO LONG UGH" a fallacy, as you see no qualms in wasting time to buy an attribute enhancer that you can lose quite easily by being podded.
The skill tree weeds out impatient people, yes, but the learning set also adds an element of strategy to it. Whine and moan all you want, thinking about whether you want to commit to training your Perception skills up to 5 because you think you'll be around for a few years and you're going to be combat-heavy is a time investment made by the patient, JUST LIKE playing the market, or mining, or going heavily industrial. It adds an extra element to the game where you are rewarded for proper planning -- the fact that having skills 5/4 or 4/4 across the board and having +3 implants minimum is considered status quo makes a problem where there is none -- just like nothing forces you to learn particular skills to fit Tech 2 modules or rigs, nothing forces you to train up your learning skills, despite everyone claiming otherwise. Not having learning skills doesn't restrict the game for you in any way, nor does it hamper you. HAVING learning skills doesn't allow for any more opportunities in skilling than other players -- you just are getting a big return for the investment you made in that first crucial month. It's like playing the stock market -- and everyone in this thread seems to ignore the fact that anything over +0 to all attributes is an advantageous position, not that anything below +5 is severe disadvantage.
So what if all the guides say to do learning first? You can ignore them. Be in a Battleship within your first month, yeah, master T1 and get some T2 stuff on there... but because you chose to play impulsively, you have to reap the consequences of your actions.
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VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:02:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Deizel
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
That would be a horrible change. Would allow for instant cyno alts, possibly even instant suicide gankers etc.
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ForeU CEO
Caldari Forethought Unchained
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:06:00 -
[121]
Edited by: ForeU CEO on 30/06/2010 22:07:24
Quote: and everyone in this thread seems to ignore the fact that anything over +0 to all attributes is an advantageous position, not that anything below +5 is severe disadvantage.
I'm not following your stock market example. You're saying its kindof like how finishing high school puts you at an advantage in society, not finishing high school doesn't put you at a disadvantage?
It's been stated but 4/4 learning +3s are the norm, not having them is a disadvantage and is why everyone including the rookie help channel tells people to train them. ------------------------------------ |
Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:13:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Spades Slick stuff
Spades, I want to try and convert you.
I don't think implants apply to this situation for two reasons. One, you can lose them, and two, the acquisition rate of isk is enormously variable where the gain of skill points is basically fixed. There's gameplay involved in going out and mining or running missions. Waiting for learning skills to complete isn't gameplay, it's absence of gameplay.
The learning skills don't add any layer of strategy that isn't better served elsewhere. I'd rather see newbies choosing between Gallente or Caldari than choosing between waiting a shorter time now verses a longer time later.
Every other skill influences something directly. Any other skill raises your speed or the damage you do or how powerful your jammers are or changes the modules you can fit. Learning skills just influence time, and the choice is always the same choice: Wait a shorter time now, or a longer time later.
Why don't you have learning skills all at level 5? There's no disadvantage to having them all at level five, in fact they're probably the most useful skills in the game, so why don't you have them? I'm guessing the answer is because you didn't feel like sitting on your ass for a month waiting for skill bars to go up.
Most new players don't like that either. The difference is, they dislike it enough to leave. And that's a damn shame. -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice. |
Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:21:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 22:22:19
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Spades Slick stuff
Spades, I want to try and convert you.
I don't think implants apply to this situation for two reasons. One, you can lose them, and two, the acquisition rate of isk is enormously variable where the gain of skill points is basically fixed. There's gameplay involved in going out and mining or running missions. Waiting for learning skills to complete isn't gameplay, it's absence of gameplay.
The learning skills don't add any layer of strategy that isn't better served elsewhere. I'd rather see newbies choosing between Gallente or Caldari than choosing between waiting a shorter time now verses a longer time later.
Every other skill influences something directly. Any other skill raises your speed or the damage you do or how powerful your jammers are or changes the modules you can fit. Learning skills just influence time, and the choice is always the same choice: Wait a shorter time now, or a longer time later.
Why don't you have learning skills all at level 5? There's no disadvantage to having them all at level five, in fact they're probably the most useful skills in the game, so why don't you have them? I'm guessing the answer is because you didn't feel like sitting on your ass for a month waiting for skill bars to go up.
Most new players don't like that either. The difference is, they dislike it enough to leave. And that's a damn shame.
Here's the way it went down:
I got my Cormorant, right? Leveled up gunnery a bit, so I could mount an effective offense, and started grinding standings with a corporation via L1s and low-quality L2s. And amazingly enough... I was able to put learning skills on my queue while I was out grinding those low-quality, low-level missions!
Wow, train learning skills AND accomplish something at the same time? Shocking! But no, you and your peers would have the newbie population believe that they MUST learn learning skills FIRST, above ALL ELSE. Funny... how are they supposed to afford their tier 2 learning skill books?
As for why I don't have my skills at 5/5, my current plan is only to Carriers, and that's where I plan to stop. Anything after that is supplementary, so I don't particularly care about having a bonus that would make Titan go faster (see? I'm not accepting the highest skills I can get as the baseline -- I am doing the best configuration.) Right now my Willpower skills are down, but that's because I'm not doing any skills that need it at the moment -- I'm going to put points into focus right before I start my Willpower skills, which since they're all grinding spaceship command skills that take weeks individually anyway, the one day or so I spend working on those learning skills is just one more day.
Yes, I used EVEMon, but the way it suggest things, you should do all learning skills first, then everything else. I played with it -- made strategic adjustments, got my neural remap perfect. Now I've got 4 L5 passive shield tank skills, so my Drake should get me through tanking L4s for fleets; that gives me something to do while I work on my weapons skills, so that I can SOLO L4s. Then, after I have gotten a competent BC/BS level defensive and offensive skillset made up, I'm ready to set my queue to start working towards Strat Cruisers, then Carriers (my order), along with any relevant skills in between.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:27:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Mathias Black on 30/06/2010 22:27:41
Originally by: Spades Slick
No, see, general statements don't work. You can't say, "pretty much" or "mostly". The guides recommend it, sure, but they are suggestions. NOTHING IS FORCING YOU TO DO LEARNING SKILLS. Period. End of sentence. You can choose to skip them. For an impatient person who just wants to shoot his guns faster, they train up their gunnery skills and ignore the learning skills. They get to combat-readiness in the early stages faster than those who do train in learning, but their inability to consider outside their one-month box means that they lose momentum after several months. There is nothing unfair about this. They get to become active fighters (or miners, or salvagers, or traders, or industrialists) faster than the players who train learning skills... but then the people who did learning skills will train faster after years of playing.
Patience is rewarded in this realm, just like anywhere else in EVE, okay? Trading requires you plop your ass in station and hope someone buys your stock. Industry requires you to wait for stuff to build. Even getting better missions requires you to spend time doing missions for standing. EVE is a game of patience. Learning skills are just another facet of this overarching philosophy. Don't like waiting? EVE is not for you.
OK I see from your later posts that you're a new player so I think I see where your confusion is. You seem to think that you figured something out, or did something strategic, or somehow did something clever by training the learning skills, and that this has "specialized" you in some way or given you some kind of a different character than other people. It hasn't. Everyone trains the learning skills. EVERYONE. You're not clever or a special snowflake, you did exactly what EVERY other new character in Eve did. There might be one or two small exceptions: mostly, other brand new players who haven't yet figured out that the learning skills exist. If your sole argument for keeping the skills is that you want to maintain the "advantage" over these two-week old players, that's a terrible reason. The two weeks that you figured out the Learning skills exist before them hardly matters, especially in a game where some people have a five year lead on you and you have no way to catch up. I need to reiterate this: EVERYONE TRAINS THE LEARNING SKILLS. There is absolutely no reason to NOT train the skills unless you plan on quitting after one or two months, and even then, it would probably be wiser to train them just in case you come back. Everyone will train them once they realize they are there; even if you're "impatient", the base learning skills pay out after a month, the others pay out after a few more months... the reason everyone trains them is because we are "impatient" about learning the skills we will take after learning, taking learning means you learn everything faster overall, you are not being "patient" except for your first week or two as a noob.
As for your ridiculous comments about "weeding out" people who think that not learning any useful skills for your first month is a dumb idea just because they might like WoW, I personally would much rather we "weed out" the people who think it's a good idea, because the people who think that they're proving they're "patient" or "hard-working" or "clever" by sitting there staring at a progress bar in a game for two weeks are generally sad, pathetic, highly annoying people.
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Hannibal Ord
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:27:00 -
[125]
I have them at 5/4.
Anyone who even remotely suggests that they should stay in the game and we shouldn't just get our SP back and attributes enhanced, is full of ****.
They just don't want people to be on a level playing field and have a giant turnip up their arse because they trained them up ages ago.
They are mundane, boring, add nothing to the game and keep newer players from getting stuck into training better equipment and ships.
They should be removed because they add no fun to the game and I would quite like the SP back.
I would guess that anyone who argues for them to stay rather than remove them and get the SP back is around 2%-5% (if that) of eve's population.
Not only that, CCP would win huge favour with the generally negative but loyal player base by removing them.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:34:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Spades Slick Wow, train learning skills AND accomplish something at the same time? Shocking! But no, you and your peers would have the newbie population believe that they MUST learn learning skills FIRST, above ALL ELSE. Funny... how are they supposed to afford their tier 2 learning skill books?
I understand what you're saying; What you've discovered is, indeed, how I've described learning skills: "Wait now, or wait later". You chose to wait initially, instead of later.
What you've managed to do is carefully position yourself so that learning skills won't inconvenience you too much. That's admirable, but it doesn't change the fact that you worked around an inconvenience. If learning skills were gone, you would have been able to move straight onto your advancement; You would have been able to go straight towards learning skills which would have some actual influence on your ship. You'd also have more money because you wouldn't have had to invest in those skill books.
The question I'm begging here is simply "what good do learning skills serve"? It's not enough for them to be "only a marginal inconvenience", they have to be a positive force. What was the positive force of these learning skills? Was the enjoyment derived from managing which learning skills to advance first worth the several days it took to advance them? Was it worth the isk spent on learning books? -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice. |
FU22
Viziam
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:38:00 -
[127]
Read the first couple posts but I would love to see them actually do this, less training more playing imo
Originally by: Millie Clode Dear santa, for christmas I would like an endless supply of noobs to march across my screen so I can pretend I'm playing duck hunt
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:38:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Mathias Black Edited by: Mathias Black on 30/06/2010 22:27:41OK I see from your later posts that you're a new player so I think I see where your confusion is. You seem to think that you figured something out, or did something strategic, or somehow did something clever by training the learning skills, and that this has "specialized" you in some way or given you some kind of a different character than other people. It hasn't. Everyone trains the learning skills. EVERYONE. You're not clever or a special snowflake, you did exactly what EVERY other new character in Eve did. There might be one or two small exceptions: mostly, other brand new players who haven't yet figured out that the learning skills exist.
Fallacy. Prove to me that everyone trains learning skills first. Don't suppose, don't quote rookie chat -- PROVE it. Of course, like you and all your compatriots, you can't prove anything -- you just keep making the problem worse, making it out to seem that learning skills should be baseline rather than additional. I didn't HAVE to go to Engineering V... but I did, because it was a wise investment. A guide exists somewhere telling people they should do so, too... but NOTHING forces you to go that high. Same with Tactical Shield Manipulation, Energy Systems Operation, and Shield Management, all skills I L5'd. Nothing MADE me do it, I CHOSE to do it because it was the best for my plan (see my link at the bottom, or just scroll up to where I already explained it).
Originally by: Mathias Black If your sole argument for keeping the skills is that you want to maintain the "advantage" over these two-week old players, that's a terrible reason.
No, over my peers (same age). They want to be impulsive, fine, I get rewarded for my choice to think about my skilling rather than see "OOH, +5% DAMAGE WANT!"
Originally by: Mathias Black The two weeks that you figured out the Learning skills exist before them hardly matters, especially in a game where some people have a five year lead on you and you have no way to catch up. I need to reiterate this: EVERYONE TRAINS THE LEARNING SKILLS. There is absolutely no reason to NOT train the skills unless you plan on quitting after one or two months, and even then, it would probably be wiser to train them just in case you come back. Everyone will train them once they realize they are there; even if you're "impatient", the base learning skills pay out after a month, the others pay out after a few more months... the reason everyone trains them is because we are "impatient" about learning the skills we will take after learning, taking learning means you learn everything faster overall, you are not being "patient" except for your first week or two as a noob.
I had a 21-day trial, quit and restarted on day 19 when I knew what to do. I had a lot of SP built up, but I chose to restart because it would be the best decision. Nothing stopping others from doing the same.
Originally by: Mathias Black As for your ridiculous comments about "weeding out" people who think that not learning any useful skills for your first month is a dumb idea just because they might like WoW, I personally would much rather we "weed out" the people who think it's a good idea, because the people who think that they're proving they're "patient" or "hard-working" or "clever" by sitting there staring at a progress bar in a game for two weeks are generally sad, pathetic, highly annoying people.
I sat and stared at a progress bar, eh?
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:41:00 -
[129]
And on a more philosophical note.... Patience might be a virtue, but only when applied wisely. A willingness to sit and stare at the paint peeling on a wall for five months straight just to prove you can might show that you're "patient", but it also shows that you are a complete loser who thinks that sitting on his ass for five months doing nothing makes him a good person. That's great, you sat on your ass and waited around for nothing for a really long time. Good for you. It doesn't make you a good person, and it certainly doesn't make you "better" than all the normal people in the world who actually went out and did things for those five months. It just means you're really good at doing mind-numbingly boring and pointless things for no apparent reason.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:42:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Hannibal Ord Anyone who even remotely suggests that they should stay in the game and we shouldn't just get our SP back and attributes enhanced, is full of ****.
So true.
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Killclone
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:44:00 -
[131]
Not again about the learning skills... There's been learning topic every few months for years. CCP would allready have taken them out if they thought they need to be taken out.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:44:00 -
[132]
I bet this is one guy with 5 accounts and 14 forumalts who is making all those "remove learning skills" threads and posts lately. Why make Eve even more unEveish ? You young padavans think you are something better and don't want to go through the learning skill learning process, like everyone else did before. Next you will ask for removing attributes at all, so that there is no training speed difference ?
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Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:47:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Spades Slick Wow, train learning skills AND accomplish something at the same time? Shocking! But no, you and your peers would have the newbie population believe that they MUST learn learning skills FIRST, above ALL ELSE. Funny... how are they supposed to afford their tier 2 learning skill books?
I understand what you're saying; What you've discovered is, indeed, how I've described learning skills: "Wait now, or wait later". You chose to wait initially, instead of later.
What you've managed to do is carefully position yourself so that learning skills won't inconvenience you too much. That's admirable, but it doesn't change the fact that you worked around an inconvenience. If learning skills were gone, you would have been able to move straight onto your advancement; You would have been able to go straight towards learning skills which would have some actual influence on your ship. You'd also have more money because you wouldn't have had to invest in those skill books.
But the problem with this line of thought is that it discards what I mentioned in the same post -- training Spaceship Command, Capital Ships, Battleship, and Carrier is all really useless so far as my activity in-game is concerned. I can do without having a Carrier, I won't need Cap Ships if I pimp out my Drake. I'm going to be forced to wait for several weeks while these skills train back-to-back. However, I have planned it out so that I have this forced downtime when I am at my strongest with BC-BS sized equipment, so that I won't be completely unable to do anything productive. You could argue the same about the learning skills, but it remains a way to play into the skilling system -- if EVEMon didn't exist, something tells me people wouldn't mind learning skills so much, because they would be forced to think nonlinearly. As it is, you put in what you want, and the system tells you to grind learning, then ships, then defense, then offense... and if you don't have the presence of mind to change that order based on where you want to be a month down the line when Battleship IV nears completion, then by all means, continue to blindly skill up without a second thought as to why you're doing what you're doing.
Originally by: Black Dranzer The question I'm begging here is simply "what good do learning skills serve"? It's not enough for them to be "only a marginal inconvenience", they have to be a positive force. What was the positive force of these learning skills? Was the enjoyment derived from managing which learning skills to advance first worth the several days it took to advance them? Was it worth the isk spent on learning books?
It's the same reason why mining isn't as simple as tractoring an asteroid back to station, or increasing prod-levels on BPCs takes so damn long -- because EVE is built to be a slow-paced metagame intended to create an entire world with intense elements (combat) mixed in, but not central to, the experience.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:50:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I bet this is one guy with 5 accounts and 14 forumalts who is making all those "remove learning skills" threads and posts lately. Why make Eve even more unEveish ? You young padavans think you are something better and don't want to go through the learning skill learning process, like everyone else did before. Next you will ask for removing attributes at all, so that there is no training speed difference ?
I am for the removal of learning skills.
I'm a five year old character with 4/4/4 learning/learning/implants.
I created my character before your character's race even existed.
Don't call me a Padawan, you little punk. -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:56:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Spades Slick Fallacy. Prove to me that everyone trains learning skills first. Don't suppose, don't quote rookie chat -- PROVE it. Of course, like you and all your compatriots, you can't prove anything -- you just keep making the problem worse, making it out to seem that learning skills should be baseline rather than additional.
I'm fairly sure that skill training as a whole was a topic brought up in a dev blog or QEN... and everyone (with a very small margin of error for totally clueless noobs that stopped playing) trains learning skills. Even super specialized alts train the appropriate learning skills (thanks to Evemon!).
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Spades Slick
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:00:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 23:00:20
Originally by: Liang Nuren Even super specialized alts train the appropriate learning skills
Yep. The APPROPRIATE learning skills.
Not "5/4/+4 implants". The skills relevant to what you want to do.
Unfortunately, rookie chat is filled with people who try to convince newbies that they MUST skill everything, and the rookies (unable to reach EVEMon for the first few days, when they could figure it out for themselves) pour their points into that 'perfect' learning skill set (you know the one, +1 intel +1 mem +learning +2 intel +2 mem +2 learning, or however it goes).
The problem is with the older player base over-dramatizing the importance of learning skills... or rather, having ALL of them trained, instead of what you plan to USE.
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Taxesarebad
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:03:00 -
[137]
why do people support learning skills. if you get reimbursed sp wise, and all chars have maxed learning attributes its a good thing now instead of making an alt, sitting there learning worthless skill for months i can start a new guy and get to work on what i wanna do, make a miner? Manufactures, traders, wannabeepirates = happy! make a indy= traders miners = happy make a pirate = other pirates, pvp corps w/e = happy make a Mission runner= pirates, pvp cors, ninja salvagers = happy..
the only people that complain are those who think it would change much, it means making a new char might be fun and not a pain. i was about to make a pure pvp char but then i was like... at LEAST 2 weeks of learning skills... nah.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:08:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Spades Slick Even more stuff
I need to bring up a point here: There are skills which pertain to cruiser piloting that go far beyond simple spaceship command skills. You may not have encountered them yet, but they're there, and they take a long time to train up. But that's an aside.
There's a misconception here; You seem to believe that analyzing learning skills and adjusting a "plan of attack" takes some kind of intricate skill or careful thought; It really doesn't. It really does come down to "wait now or wait later". There's some minor shuffling about with the way learning skills on the second tier influence each other, but beyond that.. not to discredit your own actions, but you have to realize this isn't something brilliant, you've just executed the basic principle in a slightly more refined way. My issue is with the principle.
But your key point, which was that Eve is a slow paced game..
Eve is a slow paced game as a consequence. There is indeed an extremely clever way which Eve deals with character advancement: Most games require a time investment indirectly, by having you grind. The time investment barrier exists for a very explicit reason (which I can't really go into without giving out a lecture on Virtual World design), but what CCP had the brains to do was see the time barrier for what it was, and rather than ask you to do certain things during that time, they just cut the whole thing off at the head and said "wait the time". But I'm getting off track.
No, Eve's primary strength is that it's an open world with few limitations. It's lawless, it's open, it's huge, the array of things you can do is enormous. None of these things would vanish if we were to remove learning skills. What would happen would be that people would get to this level a little faster; They'd be able to experience the world freely without having to worry about learning skills. It's all very well and good to say "oh they're not really necessary", but by the same token: You have them. I have them! Everybody in this thread has them. If you don't have them, people consider you gimped.
It is a choice, but it's a fake choice. It's an ultimatum.
Wait now, or wait later.
Do you get what I'm saying? -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice. |
Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:11:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Spades Slick
Fallacy. Prove to me that everyone trains learning skills first. Don't suppose, don't quote rookie chat -- PROVE it. Of course, like you and all your compatriots, you can't prove anything -- you just keep making the problem worse, making it out to seem that learning skills should be baseline rather than additional. I didn't HAVE to go to Engineering V... but I did, because it was a wise investment. A guide exists somewhere telling people they should do so, too... but NOTHING forces you to go that high. Same with Tactical Shield Manipulation, Energy Systems Operation, and Shield Management, all skills I L5'd. Nothing MADE me do it, I CHOSE to do it because it was the best for my plan (see my link at the bottom, or just scroll up to where I already explained it).
Heh, how about you prove YOUR side and find me some people who have played for more than a couple of months who HAVEN'T trained the learning skills? The difference between the other skills you mentioned (Shield, Energy, etc) is that there are valid reasons for choosing to train something else over those or training them at different times depending on what sort of character you want to make. There is NO valid reason for not training the learning skills (unless the type of character you want to make is "a really ****ty one"). The only people who don't train them are the people who don't know that they exist or how they work. "Choosing" to not train them and thus be stuck at half the speed of every other person in the game is not a valid choice, it's just a trap for new players.
Quote:
No, over my peers (same age). They want to be impulsive, fine, I get rewarded for my choice to think about my skilling rather than see "OOH, +5% DAMAGE WANT!"
But you didn't actually "choose to think", you read a guide, or a forum post, or were browsing through the market and saw the skills there and thought "Wow, I would be an idiot to not train these." You did some very baseline cognitive thinking I guess, like "Not training this would be intensely stupid" and then "chose" to not do something intensely stupid, but that's hardly something to be proud of, and it's the same choice every other person in the game has already made, some of us multiple times over with new characters and alts.
Originally by: Mathias Black
I had a 21-day trial, quit and restarted on day 19 when I knew what to do. I had a lot of SP built up, but I chose to restart because it would be the best decision. Nothing stopping others from doing the same.
First, 19 days is not "a lot of SP". Five years is a lot of SP. Secondly, how the hell can you think that a game mechanic that made you delete your character and start over because you realized you messed up is a good thing? That's seriously the only thing Learning does: it makes new players go "****, I didn't realize there were these Learning skills that I have to train to be at the normal advancement rate. Crap. I guess I will either delete and start over or put all my other skills on hold to train these really boring ones for a month." THAT'S NOT A GOOD GAME MECHANIC. I can only guess that what you like about it is that it might "weed out" the people who realize they messed up and just quit, and that's a pretty terrible reason. I want MORE people playing this game, not less. And preferably more people that aren't masochists.
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Induc
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:36:00 -
[140]
Training learning skills or not is not a real choice, unless you're stupid. Most newbies quickly discover that the choice is either spend a month training learning skills, or leave.
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Isil Rahsen
Gallente Ferrum Superum
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:41:00 -
[141]
I would support the removal of all learning skills in exchange for the SP back and a +10 to all attributes. I can't say I would support the 900k SP allocation as it sounds like an instant alt machine to me.
To the ongoing discussion regarding the ramifications of removing the learning skills, back when I was new in late 05 I had no clue about the learning skills and effectively "gimped" my original char. After RMR and the introduction of the new bloodlines I felt compelled to re-roll as a new char in one of the new bloodlines, because of the gimped skillset I had. (Along with crappy attributes but that has since been fixed.)
As a game mechanic I find the learning skills asinine. It's nothing but a timesink for new chars . I certainly didn't enjoy training them and most of the people I've tried to get into EVE have found them to be frustrating and almost always detrimental to what they want to do.
The argument that it somehow will remove "depth" to character customization I think is dubious. All it will do is allow new characters to begin to get to the meat of the game a few weeks earlier. after that all the things that make impatient people leave EVE will still be there.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 00:26:00 -
[142]
I am getting a strange feeling that DEVs are in this thread
Originally by: Ranger 1 Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...
...
... because why again exactly?
Because having that system implemented in the first place was a bad decision to begin with.
Originally by: Spades Slick
That's funny because my toon's only 3 months old. No, wait, 2 and a half.
Yeah, I'm a 'bitter vet', all right.
I'm probably younger than any of you.
EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?
Yet you speak of Command ships, specialized skill sets, and other things a two month old character would not typically have. Just saying.
But seriously your logic is pretty fail. And yes I will stick purely with the ad hominem since that is about the only response I feel your opinions warrant.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 00:32:00 -
[143]
I think they should remove the learning skills and not buff attributes in compensation.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.01 01:22:00 -
[144]
Thought experiment.
I put in the plan in evemon to get all the first learning skills to lvl 5 and the second tier to lvl 4.
It totals 2 million sp... if you only went to 4 -4 its only 1 million sp.
What if you just gave new players 5.6 million sp's double time instead of 1.6 (or more modestly to get to 4-4 without any distractions from other training, doubl time to 3.6)
If..sp were so critical everyone could still use the extra fast time to train them and be right where they are now, or.. they might just opt to get a whole lot of other skills quickly to get playing (I still think that being able to get the second tier books cheaply and be able to use them with only lvl 3 pre-reqa wouls be an easy helpful change for newbies)
Would you guys object to that?
If the point isn't to help newbies.. then what is it?
I suspect that there is an ulterior motive wher lots of people against the skills want to get that nice chunk of skillpointa back to realocate rather than to help newbies.
Or maybe its neurotic's who can't losen up but don't want those that can from reveling while they're studying---they're jealous of the guys that go out and have fun first and think of the results later ...they don't want to face that dilema ?
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.01 01:39:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Spades Slick Even more stuff
It is a choice, but it's a fake choice. It's an ultimatum.
Wait now, or wait later.
Do you get what I'm saying?
I'm hearing you say the guys that go out and chase girls and get b's instead of a's while you were studying and end up investment bankers that make just as much if not as much more than you really should have been forced to study just as hard and not have fun chasing girls?
Ok, maybe not exactly but..do you get my gist? Theres a reward to a devil may care attitude.... fun now vs fun later.
Not too much different than.. chosing to pvp.. you'll lose isk even doing it even if you win more fights than you lose.. the looting rarely pays.....
You trade security for exitment and facing the idea of frequent loss isn't too much different than making the decision to make the more reckless choice in training.
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Isil Rahsen
Gallente Ferrum Superum
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Posted - 2010.07.01 01:49:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Isil Rahsen on 01/07/2010 01:49:10
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Thought experiment.
I put in the plan in evemon to get all the first learning skills to lvl 5 and the second tier to lvl 4.
It totals 2 million sp... if you only went to 4 -4 its only 1 million sp.
What if you just gave new players 5.6 million sp's double time instead of 1.6 (or more modestly to get to 4-4 without any distractions from other training, doubl time to 3.6)
If..sp were so critical everyone could still use the extra fast time to train them and be right where they are now, or.. they might just opt to get a whole lot of other skills quickly to get playing (I still think that being able to get the second tier books cheaply and be able to use them with only lvl 3 pre-reqa wouls be an easy helpful change for newbies)
Would you guys object to that?
If the point isn't to help newbies.. then what is it?
I suspect that there is an ulterior motive wher lots of people against the skills want to get that nice chunk of skillpointa back to realocate rather than to help newbies.
Or maybe its neurotic's who can't losen up but don't want those that can from reveling while they're studying---they're jealous of the guys that go out and have fun first and think of the results later ...they don't want to face that dilema ?
Why keep them at all? Even with training time bonus to x.x million SP it's still a timesink that at best is slightly less annoying than before. The problem is that they exist at all, and shortening the time to train them only covers up the problem.
As to people wanting the SP back as an ulterior motive, even at 5/5 it's not a whole lot of SP for an established char. I personally would only be getting back 2.something million. Not enough to make a big difference in my total skillset.
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Helio Amor
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Posted - 2010.07.01 02:19:00 -
[147]
I'd like to hear from players who actually havent played eve before and only been in game a week or two. Since any change would primarily affect them first and foremost. Each and everyone of you who have trained learning skills may have your say in the matter but if you already have them trained then your no longer a noob and it doesn't affect you. I should also point out the devs thought adding stargates to the game were a bad idea too but necessary but thats a whole different topic. Personally I like the idea of removing the skills. I was once a noob, and even thought the skill sets were in when I joined up. I still had to train learning skills. The old character setup was designed to give you a set of skills you need to do what you want to do. Now I don't want to hear....ohh im a noob I dont know what is what in the game I need personal skills to train. Excuse my french but what a ****ing load of crap. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what industrialist career means or what military career means. Hell there were plenty of guides on google to lookup if the bastards can google **** they can google which skill sets they needed to select. The descriptions were there from the start. Same as wow....you don't need a ****ing month to figure out what a hunter does. Now that rant is out it doesn't matter those skill sets are history.
EVERY noob that has come into our corp has asked....what should I train first. We always replay learning skills so you can train them faster long term since you are expected to play eve for years. Of course 90% of the time they whine about waiting a month to be able to train skills they need to do what they want to do. If you aren't going to remove LS then at least let them train all of them to lvl 3 instantly so they at least have a good start......or better yet just give them a mil SP to allocate where they want so they can choose to start learning skills or to instantly train skills for what they want to do and THEN focus on learning skills. I may agree or not on removing LS but at the very least I DO agree the system is ****ed up and needs fixed one way or the other. Making noobs wait to train learning skills is both heartless and cold. I never had to experiance this as I said I had skill sets to start playing around with while my learning skills were being done.....noobs don't have this. They have hardly any skills to start with. If you compared the odl setup with now. It is sort of like making the two parties run a mile, the old setup starts you off a quarter a mile into the race. If you are both running at the same speed the new setup always loses no matter what.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.01 02:21:00 -
[148]
@deziel.. you missed the second point about learning skills being a source of mental anguish for neurotics which I think is sort of a theme of the game.
SP have nothing to do with any metric of the game.
pvp is more about player skill than charcter skill
manufacturing is about systems
trade is about making isk
sp are about who started earlier mostly.. if you had found the game a month earlier you'd have made up for most of maxed learning skills.. would you be ahead?
Help the noobs out to make it easy to get 70% of the benefit cheaply and leave the hand wringing in the game for the rest..
its kinda funny to see people getting upset about it.. that
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Jaina Kort
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Posted - 2010.07.01 02:33:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Jaina Kort on 01/07/2010 02:36:45 I got into Eve in the beginning of 2006. A few weeks after starting, I learned about the learning skills and was not thrilled with them, but, it was exciting to look at how much faster I would be able to learn things. So, there was a level of satisfaction that came along with learning the skills themselves.
I loved the game a lot and realized that I would be playing for many years, so I took the timesink and learned them all to level 5. The advanced learning skills from 4 to 5 were annoying really, but a sense of accomplishment was had from getting everything to level 5. So, I do understand people wanting to keep them as it does add a sort of "planning" aspect into the game.
But, I would not personally mind them being removed. I have a bit over 5.3m skill points and would love to reallocate them to get some of my advanced skills up quicker.
For me, I dont really care if I learn faster than other players, so removing them does not bother me in the least. I care more about my characters advancement than I care about what others are doing in their development. So, I say reallocate those SP and I will put them to good use. :D
The game must grow and the more people in eve, the better as more Drama can happen. I realize the game must grow and sometimes losing or changing old systems is needed. Skillpoints in my opinion will make many happy and many upset, but it is one of those nerfs I think would not drive people from the game, but rather a chance to bring more into it.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.01 04:31:00 -
[150]
everyone who tells other people how they should or should not play EvE is a facist troll piece of ****, and thats from the heart. This is clearly a signature. |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 04:40:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Spades Slick Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 23:00:20
Originally by: Liang Nuren Even super specialized alts train the appropriate learning skills
Yep. The APPROPRIATE learning skills.
Not "5/4/+4 implants". The skills relevant to what you want to do.
Right, which (again) totally supports my point of view that everyone trains learning skills - even the people that know they won't be training more than a month. Learning skills are not optional.
Quote: Unfortunately, rookie chat is filled with people who try to convince newbies that they MUST skill everything
They definitely need 4/4 or maybe 5/4 if they plan to play the game very long at all. I'd usually recommend not training charisma at first though. :)
Quote: The problem is with the older player base over-dramatizing the importance of learning skills... or rather, having ALL of them trained, instead of what you plan to USE.
Its impossible to over dramatize the importance of learning skills. Take it from the dumbass stupid mother ****er that had 3/2s for ages.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente Luxury Exports The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2010.07.01 04:52:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 01/07/2010 04:53:28 I don't think this will happen. If it does, it will creating a cascading effect that will ruin the core principals of Eve, such as 0-5 slot implants for starters, create a desire for players to "train faster" thereby pressuring CCP to create microtransactions, and will cause a great violation of trust in players who have played the game for quite some time.
It's not so far off, either. Blizzard has vocally presented the idea of making World of Warcraft Free to Play (F2P,) and while I like Eve very much I wouldn't put it past CCP to pull a stunt like that.
Source: http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/30/blizzard-discuss-making-world-of-warcraft-free
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 05:00:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I don't think this will happen. If it does, it will creating a cascading effect that will ruin the core principals of Eve, such as 0-5 slot implants for starters, create a desire for players to "train faster" thereby pressuring CCP to create microtransactions, and will cause a great violation of trust in players who have played the game for quite some time.
It's not so far off, either. Blizzard has vocally presented the idea of making World of Warcraft Free to Play (F2P,) and while I like Eve very much I wouldn't put it past CCP to pull a stunt like that.
I disagree on all accounts. The removal of learning skills merely corrects a defect in game design. It provides no pressure towards microtransactions, and potentially lessens said pressure because it removes one of the basic reasons why so many noobs quit Eve before giving it a fair chance. Even if the retention rate because of removing learning skills is only 5-10% of the people who quit in a trial, it'd be a Really Big Deal.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.01 05:06:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 01/07/2010 05:07:15 I beg to difer still
I'd argue that its stupid to train 4/4 pr 4/4 until you can fly a frigate well enough to have fun.
There is no destination in the game...your skills compared to others are next to meaninginless in that they'll be higher if they started earlier...
all that matters is what you can do when and which choice will be the most fun for you.
The first logical move would to pick a skill level where you can start to get your hands wet in a field you're intersted in.. to wade your way through modules and ships and interfaces.
As this is a mmo I'd think finding a way to start working with people.. cooperating etc would be a high priority...as the game give's a role to frigates as tackle thats a good plateu where you can fleet with people an be a minor help, where you can start grinding lvl 1 mission for standing.. where you can start working with the interface.
So... the question isn't how can you get the most sp quickist its how can you get to a point where you can use a frigate, with a warp disrupter and a micorwarp drive halfway effectively...a bit of tank, some power sytem upgrades...
onec you get there and can start playing.. then you can think of your nex step and get enoug learning skills to that stage of learning.
My main has 18 million sp...but to be honest I've got far more skills than I can use well.
Until Im a top notch intercepter pilot.. untili I don't make mistakes at gates.. until I'm able to use a system scanner effectively etc.. I've got no buisiness flying an arazu or a vagabond.
I'm skilled in hics but until i've tackled a few dozne ships in intredictors why should I fly a hic and risk a coprs reputation.
Even the slow pace of skill accumlation goes quicker than most pilots can reas pinacle of performance in the lower level shis.
Tryint to get ahead of yourself would be similar to a person buying a character in another mmo thinking he was too proud to learn the ropes working lover level skills in lower level dungeons.
Its the journey , not the destination, and there are plenty of things to do along the way.
This character has 300k sp.. but has made billions trading in various markets.. help in other alts. I'vee gotten high ishkone standing etc.. I could have been doing pi if i felt like sparing the points on the main.
The learning skils are just a choice......and there will be points in time where you have plenty of practice to do with the skills you do have to spare time to get them upp while playing with 100% effort.
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Issaries Valran
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.01 05:11:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I don't think this will happen. If it does, it will creating a cascading effect that will ruin the core principals of Eve, such as 0-5 slot implants for starters, create a desire for players to "train faster" thereby pressuring CCP to create microtransactions, and will cause a great violation of trust in players who have played the game for quite some time.
It's not so far off, either. Blizzard has vocally presented the idea of making World of Warcraft Free to Play (F2P,) and while I like Eve very much I wouldn't put it past CCP to pull a stunt like that.
I disagree on all accounts. The removal of learning skills merely corrects a defect in game design. It provides no pressure towards microtransactions, and potentially lessens said pressure because it removes one of the basic reasons why so many noobs quit Eve before giving it a fair chance. Even if the retention rate because of removing learning skills is only 5-10% of the people who quit in a trial, it'd be a Really Big Deal.
-Liang
I have to agree with Liang.
Learning skill should be removed and if they remove learning skills they should remove learning implants too. Even the +3 bonus you get on pirate implants.
With all those gone maybe some people would be more willing to risk their pods in combat.
Learning skill where certainly a bad design decision, and instead of just expecting a the bad design. It should be corrected and I would go so far as say they should learning implants too.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente Luxury Exports The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2010.07.01 05:12:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 01/07/2010 05:12:33
Originally by: Liang Nuren I disagree on all accounts. The removal of learning skills merely corrects a defect in game design. It provides no pressure towards microtransactions, and potentially lessens said pressure because it removes one of the basic reasons why so many noobs quit Eve before giving it a fair chance. Even if the retention rate because of removing learning skills is only 5-10% of the people who quit in a trial, it'd be a Really Big Deal.
No way man. Eve is about planning and making good use of your training time spent. If they remove learning skills they're undoing that basic fundamental principal of the game. Learning skills are something everybody must complete if they want to truly get ahead in Eve. If they don't complete their learning skills, then that is a bad decision on their part and they are penalized. It shows that sometimes, sacrifice brings benefit.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.01 05:17:00 -
[157]
FFS. It's the ACCELERATED TRAINING BONUS and the TWO FREE NEWBIE REMAPS that make it "mandatory" to train the learning skills for first month.
If we didn't have the accelerated training bonus and two newbie remaps, then newbs could spread out the learning skills depending on what they were training. They could put off training Charisma while on a PvP Rifter plan. When they needed to train social or trade skills, then they could skill up Charisma. But with the remaps, it's a really good idea to burn one remap to speed up as many learning skills as possible before using the 2nd remap for your real focus.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 05:20:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
No way man. Eve is about planning and making good use of your training time spent. If they remove learning skills they're undoing that basic fundamental principal of the game. Learning skills are something everybody must complete if they want to truly get ahead in Eve. If they don't complete their learning skills, then that is a bad decision on their part and they are penalized. It shows that sometimes, sacrifice brings benefit.
Sacrificing 30 days for BS 5 brings a benefit. Sacrificing X time to make the game not suck is a detriment. Unnecessary sacrifices are stupid.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 05:56:00 -
[159]
I'm not really bothered what happens with learning skills at this point, however do I feel compelled to add a bit of perspective to this discussion anyway.
It took me a year to get my learning skills all to 5/4, another 2 years to start filling my head with +3 implants, and another 2 years to start using +4s and finish my learning skills to 5/5.
I cbf doing the maths to work out how much SP I've potentially missed out on by not training all my learning skills ASAP, but let's pick a number and go with 2 mil SP for argument's sake, or approximately 50 days.
Now that would mean that, since I currently have 101 mil SP after 6 years, I've only been training at around... 98% efficiency over that entire period?
OH NOES.
Sometimes I wonder if the likes of Evemon and EFT have done more harm than good. All you obsessive compulsive min/maxers out there really need to chillax and just play the game.
/Ben
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Placebo Addict
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:01:00 -
[160]
Proper use of learning skills allows the intelligent to stand out in the crowd.
Removal of learning skills is a wholeheartedly foolish idea.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:11:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
No way man. Eve is about planning and making good use of your training time spent. If they remove learning skills they're undoing that basic fundamental principal of the game. Learning skills are something everybody must complete if they want to truly get ahead in Eve. If they don't complete their learning skills, then that is a bad decision on their part and they are penalized. It shows that sometimes, sacrifice brings benefit.
Sacrificing 30 days for BS 5 brings a benefit. Sacrificing X time to make the game not suck is a detriment. Unnecessary sacrifices are stupid.
-Liang
There we disagree. We're talking about EVE. One of the few games I know of that defines your experience almost as much by what you lose or could lose as it does with what you gain.
And I know it's for dramatic purposes but bull like "without learning skills eve sucks" isn't really scoring you any points.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:14:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Ben Derindar but let's pick a number and go with 2 mil SP for argument's sake, or approximately 50 days.
So, bear in mind that this will heavily skew to attribute distribution. But lets only take 2 attributes and assume the same values for them? You didn't mention what you had before, but I'll assume 3/2s because I happen to know someone that did that (me). In the first year, you're down 9.18 attributes from everyone else ( [3+2+4]*1.02 ) You lost 9.18 + 9.18/2 = 13.77 SP/min or 7,237,512 SP in the first year alone.
Just sayin.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Drak Min
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:25:00 -
[163]
Meh, forums scammed my post.
Short and simple, who cares. CCP won't reply for 1 of 3 reasons.
reason 1: they have something in the works and don't want to tip their hat.
reason 2: they don't care and aren't going to stir the pot.
reason 3: they enjoy watching armchair "devs" and get a serious kick out of the tears CCP collects from the player base at large. |
Lena Planeswalker
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:50:00 -
[164]
I will gladly see the learning skills go away, as long as i can keep my skillpoints invested in learning skills which is easily more than 20m spread across my characters
Oh and i did make a new alt not too long a go which is surprise surprise training learning skills, i expect to be able to start using the character in about 2-3 months...stupid learning skills... |
Ran Khanon
Amarr Vengeance Innovations
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Posted - 2010.07.01 07:25:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Ran Khanon on 01/07/2010 07:26:23 Edited by: Ran Khanon on 01/07/2010 07:25:38
I too would be really happy to see them go .. having the essential ones on 4 for a long time still feels awkward; I SHOULD train them to 5 but there are always skills that really beg me to train up first because of their actual benefits and whenever I find out I need some charisma based skill for something I am really hurting.
Thing is: EVE's time based advancement system is already a somewhat iffy way to raise skills as it is directly linked to your time being subscribed and thus, for a lot of people, to monthly fees. The fact that the rate of this 'fee based advancement' can be influenced by skills which have NO OTHER USE THAN JUST THAT just rubs this 'iffyness' in.
Like other people have argued; it isn't so much of a choice to train them up at least somewhat early but an unavoidable 'must do' for all (at least 'main') characters, which derives from your gameplay options in the first months. Training them up gradually while learning the game works fine though, but you better train them up eventually least you'll stab yourself in the foot (and indirectly: in your wallet). Help us to make parrots game related today! |
Dirk Mortice
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Posted - 2010.07.01 07:27:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Chribba Don't forget they will double the starting ISK if you send it to CCP when creating a char.
New isk sink?
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Bryg Philomena
Don't Taze Me Bro
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Posted - 2010.07.01 07:31:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Gariuys Probably not gonna happen, although I don't think it would be that bad a change really. But I am quite interested in why they implemented something like this. I doubt it was hard to do, but I als doubt that this was done purely to give us SP for the downtime.
The ability to replace skillpoints after CCP decides to remove them is, at the least, the second best reason to develop such a system. That or they are going to allow SP microtransactions
Slade
Perhaps it was in place before, possibly in the event of a bug removing SP?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Your signature |
Hemp Invader
GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 07:40:00 -
[168]
Guess we need another 15 pages for a dev responce :P
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Regis Nex
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Posted - 2010.07.01 07:50:00 -
[169]
Question is: Will this bring CCP more money or not? If Yes = Goodbye Learning If No = Keep dreaming guys
CCP is a company, and yes they need to maximize earnings.
Booboo Bear Pew Pew |
Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 07:58:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Ben Derindar I'm not really bothered what happens with learning skills at this point, however do I feel compelled to add a bit of perspective to this discussion anyway.
It took me a year to get my learning skills all to 5/4, another 2 years to start filling my head with +3 implants, and another 2 years to start using +4s and finish my learning skills to 5/5.
I cbf doing the maths to work out how much SP I've potentially missed out on by not training all my learning skills ASAP, but let's pick a number and go with 2 mil SP for argument's sake, or approximately 50 days.
Now that would mean that, since I currently have 101 mil SP after 6 years, I've only been training at around... 98% efficiency over that entire period?
OH NOES.
Sometimes I wonder if the likes of Evemon and EFT have done more harm than good. All you obsessive compulsive min/maxers out there really need to chillax and just play the game.
/Ben
Wow, so, you mean if you completely just make up the math it doesn't seem like a big deal? Who would have thought. You should actually DO the math and see if you actually want to add anything meaningful.
We can't know what you were training, but if you didn't train the learning skills and had no implants for a year you were training at roughly 35% efficiency during that year, and could have nearly tripled what you learned if you had done learning first and bought implants. Assuming you then went up to 80% for year 2 after you trained them, and 95% for year 3 when you finally bought implants, 100% for year four and five when you got expensive implants... your total efficiency would be the average of the percentages, or 82%. So if you had instead done things in the correct order and bought your implants early, you'd have an extra 328 days of training to spend... almost a full extra year. So, yes, you were stupid.
But apart from this, the point is you DID eventually train the learning skills, which again shows it's not really much of a choice. If you chose not to train them, you'd have been at 35% speed the entire time, meaning you would be 1186 days behind what you should be at after 5 years. That's 3.25 YEARS. You would be 3 years behind someone who took the learning skills. Seriously, what sort of "choice" is that. The only reason you would "choose" that is if you are a complete idiot.
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:06:00 -
[171]
/me fantasises about using the 1.6m SP he has in Learning Skills to insta-train Drone Interfacing V.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:10:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Spades Slick I thought I established that I wasn't staring at anything mindlessly?[/url] But okay, continue to ignore me.
Yes, we know, you were running intro missions while training the learning skills, just like every other new player ever. That's not the point; the point is that the thing you are proud of, and the thing that you are defending, is that you were "patient" enough to sit around training a boring, stupid skill before being able to train something you actually wanted to train. This "patience" is really not the great thing you seem to think it is. This is a game, no one in the real world is going to be impressed that you managed to sit through the learning skills like every other Eve player, it doesn't make you "hard working" or anything ridiculous like that, it doesn't make you smarter than someone who plays WoW, it doesn't mean you deserve some kind of reward. All it means is that you're willing to sit through a really boring part of a video game. That's not much to be proud of, and insisting that video games should include really boring parts just to "weed out" the people who don't like to sit through really boring parts of video games is... kind of dumb.
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Iwillcutyou
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:28:00 -
[173]
Bored an read just about this entire forum. Most of the time I just laughed.
For some reason people think this ideal is very unrealistic when ccp themselves say learning skills were a bad idea.
You think they dropped skill refunds into the hot fix for no reason? It was a planned thing, they didn't do it all the sudden from the kindness of their heart, though it was kind. Which means they have future plans for refunding skill points or at least distributing them. Yes it could be used for micro transactions though doubtful.
Would you blame them if they did introduce micro transactions? Its made tons of bad games money. I would hope not, but anything is possible. People forget this is still a business.
Many argue that it forces people to specialize in a certain field, or requires you to make a choice. As many have stated, its not really a choice, and not training them is a bad idea. Attributes, Implants and Level V skills are enough to diversify people.
Plus just because some people can become specialized in another field does not mean they want to.
I begged my friend to try this game several times, he was totally put off due to the learning skills, he finally stayed on the third time, when it didn't take so long to learn the learning skills from quiting so many times. He is one of the most dedicated gamers I know, If anything he calls me lazy. (This should tell you something.) He has been successful in any mmo he's touched, and there has been a lot of them.
So why turn away potential players?
The faster people settle into a role, the better it is for the economy in every way possible. The more people contributing to this economy, the better it becomes. No matter what role you take.
Exploration, Combat, Trading, Can Flipping, Pirating, Scheming. More players makes the eve world go round.
Some one said they were tired of these threads. If you notice, ccp is actually active with their game. Just because they don't respond to a thread doesn't mean they do not read them and take from them. This helps move the problem forward, by continuing to acknowledge it and unanimously agree, learning skills are bad.
Those that just make asinine comments like: "Oh, then they should just take away all ships from the game too, and this and that" .. Are you really contributing anything useful or are you just showing off your child like behavior and immaturity.
It also makes me believe you really don't care what direction the game goes in or how it grows. You are just here to troll and oddly enough, call people trolls and say their topics are stupid. Maybe you would actually get a positive response if you put intelligent thought into some of these arguments (You know who you are.) Though like I said, you really don't care so talking to you,(again, you know who you are,) is useless.
I've yet to see a logical conclusion as why to keep learning skills.
I found this hilarious, it was taken from a 2009 post on the same subject by crimson fire:
Quote: I also trained up learningskills advanced to lvl 4. I vividly remember how utterly boring and meaningless learning skills are to train. As op said, they add nothing in terms of fun.
The only ppl that like learningskills can be categrised in 3 groups:
1: They will never say this out loud, but all their arguments stemm from this feeling "I spend boring time training learning so now you damm well also have to, else I feel cheated." These ppl are often known as jerks
2: They are the ppl that more than anything like to collect. Removing any skill from the game will diminish their collection and heaven forbid that.
These ppl are often know as Tamagotchi nerds
3: A small minority actually have fun training learning skills. They have a right to their inexplicable opinions. Just nod and ignore them, they are mostly harmless.
They are always know as crazy people.
That said, some of you really need to work on paragraphs and punctuation. Mine may be far from perfect.Walls of text are bad
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:55:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 01/07/2010 10:05:09 Hmm, does it really matter to me whether I'd have the right skills to fly a carrier the first week next march or the 3 week next march?
Thats the difference between 4-4's and 5-5 learning skills.
In the mean time I'd have hoped to have been in on a few hundred kills, been in a dozen large fleet actions.. maybe even shot at a titan ?
I'd have got a few more mini trade hubs going .. maded 75 billion isk...(yeah i'm getting the trade thing wired after a year.. and 200k sp alts make just as much ast the higher skilled ones.. the fraction of a dozen million less profits.. practially a rounding error.
Maybe i'd have figured out manfuacturing.. i'd have gotten to know my corpmates better each night on vent
Maye i'd learned to be a good fc.. maybe i'd have taken a role in corp recruitment..
Whether or not I got carrier a couple weeks early is hardly a major issue on the next 8 months. But.. being able to have another alt fly a freigther in 7 weeks instead of waiting 11 weeks to optomize the speed of his future learning.. might be a stupid move...if I was ramping up manufactuing portion of my game.. ..sure It might cost a few weeks from optimum training but just a cost of doing business .
Its not supoosed to be cut and dry.. their should always need to be cost benefit analysis
its only boing if you care about being perfect.. if you don't give a crap and do waht you feel like you win! while the anl rententive get in a trap that sinks themmmm... learning skills are a penalty to perfectionists so the Han solo's of space can win the day in their rust-buckets against the diciplined empire.
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Lt Angus
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 10:39:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 01/07/2010 10:40:23
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Its impossible to over dramatize the importance of learning skills. Take it from the dumbass stupid mother ****er that had 3/2s for ages.
-Liang
Same here although for 3 years kept thinking I wont be playing this game much longer so no point now
now people my age running with 100+ mill and im not close please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 10:42:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 10:44:58 As with the current training speed - even with +5 implants and learning skills to V - it still takes 30 years for all skills. I think we should get rid of learning skills. Better still: increase learning speed to 4,000 SP/hr max. Games shouldn't require a 10 year investment to be able to get to "the top stuff". It's just a hobby, not work!
Not only do I find 6 weeks of subscription a waste to spend on skills that bring me no direct in-game improvement but it's also a great minus for attracting new players. Of course you can opt not to train them but then it will take 1 year instead of 7 months to fly that t2 cruiser. So not really an option. Yes you can drive a car with just 1 gear but it won't go very fast. Is not getting a gearbox an option? While you see everyone speeding past twice as fast on theuir way to the nice places?
I'm all for granting the +10 attributes and giving a SP refund as tested with the 100k we just got. It will make MY EVE a lot better and I hope we'll get some more new players too.
I'm very happy that CCP also admits it was a mistake to introduce them at all (as seen on the vids where it was made clear that removing them was more an issue of "how" than "if") and I hope they will remove them asap. Go CCP! You made a good 1st step!
edit: LOL @Iwillcutyou post #173
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Galadriel Vasquez
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Posted - 2010.07.01 11:19:00 -
[177]
I am five weeks into my EVE adventures - I think the Learning skills are a good thing. I hope they dont take them out as to me they make sense. You train your character to be smarter and then as a reward for this you can train things slightly better and progress to new shinies. They dont put off players - I subscribed on day 2 of my trial experience. If players want to be insta-gratified on day one of an MMO Adventure then I respectfully suggest they should play a different one.
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Demolishar
United Aggression Eternal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.07.01 11:30:00 -
[178]
Don't fix what isnt broken.
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 11:40:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Source: http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/30/blizzard-discuss-making-world-of-warcraft-free
Well the Maya DID warn us about an event of global precautions in 2012. That would be it.
Item DB | Sigs
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Khun SP
Paramite Factories
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Posted - 2010.07.01 12:10:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Khun SP on 01/07/2010 12:13:23 This is the sux...
You want EVE to become the new WOW???
On this game you need a BRAIN, to decide whether train learning skills or not, and many other decissions. Depending on how wise you were, you become succesful or not.
Kill learning skills and you will kill a key decission question for EVE players.
P.S. are they removing attribute implants aswell? that would be the awesome lulzors.. at least this change would imply a bigger will to do PvP...
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Fact Foreman
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Posted - 2010.07.01 12:12:00 -
[181]
What an stupid idea, shame that ccp runs to the hills same second new players (noobs) start crying enuff I did spend allong time to train this and i do not see how it can be fair that its remowed to boost noobs in the game so they get better start, why did i then not get better start ? if i would and would have flown a BS sooner or better mining ship it would have made me more isk, so, is ccp gona ballance that isk allso to old players vs noobs ?
I do not see the reason to do this and if ppl wana be hi skilled, THEN PLAY FROM BEGINNING and do not come 7 years later crying cause its not ballanced, guess what, LIFE IS NOT BALANCED.
Make those changes and at same time i promisse ccp, i will start noob chars on all my acounts and make them all bs able ias fast as i can, **** insurance as i have the isk. I will use all those chars to undock and start smartbombs at hub systems and such, when theyr - sec stat is to bad its simple. I trash char and make a new one with 4-5 mill start SP that is enuff to fly another armageddon and afk disco it, and again and again, or just untill isk finished ( in 2 years) and then quit eve.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.01 12:13:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Khun SP This is the sux...
You want EVE to become the new WOW???
On this game you need a BRAIN, to decide whether train learning skills or not, and many other decissions. Depending on how wise you were, you become succesful or not.
Kill learning skills and you will kill a key decission question for EVE players.
Yes always tough decission, you have to train them, but training them is stupid and doesnt add anything to the game and only removes fun.
Anyone who thinks learning skills are intelectually challenging probably also thinks deciding which M&Ms to eat first is challenging.
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Fact Foreman
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Posted - 2010.07.01 12:25:00 -
[183]
"Anyone who thinks learning skills are intelectually challenging probably also thinks deciding which M&Ms to eat first is challenging."
It is, to leave the brovn one as theyr not the same taste.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 13:05:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Placebo Addict Proper use of learning skills allows the intelligent to stand out in the crowd.
Removal of learning skills is a wholeheartedly foolish idea.
And knowing how to fit and fly the ship, follow FC commands, being in fleet when you could be grubbing isk, is no longer the best reason to stand out in a crowd? Why the **** should superfluous skills, such as learning skills have anything to do with how you stand out in a fleet or in your corp/alliance?
The only difference learning skills really make, in the beginning, is they allow vets to skill their alts faster then a new player starting the game at the same time.
Also, a majority of the words that get filtered through new players heads are, 'train the learning skills as fast as possible' and 'train them as you feel inclined to train them', that is horrible in the sense of new player retention. If you do not see that you are nothing but a jaded mmo vet.
Originally by: Bryg Philomena
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Gariuys Probably not gonna happen, although I don't think it would be that bad a change really. But I am quite interested in why they implemented something like this. I doubt it was hard to do, but I als doubt that this was done purely to give us SP for the downtime.
The ability to replace skillpoints after CCP decides to remove them is, at the least, the second best reason to develop such a system. That or they are going to allow SP microtransactions
Slade
Perhaps it was in place before, possibly in the event of a bug removing SP?
In a later post I siad my list was not exhaustive
Originally by: Furb Killer
Anyone who thinks learning skills are intelectually challenging probably also thinks deciding which M&Ms to eat first is challenging.
and exactly.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 13:47:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Fact Foreman "Anyone who thinks learning skills are intelectually challenging probably also thinks deciding which M&Ms to eat first is challenging."
Exactly. Does the spreadsheet mob feel threatened or what?
In the end nobody has anything to fear. Rookies don't get any "advantage", they get the learning skills for free - and so do you. As it looks now you'll get those few million SP worth a month of training or more restituted to use on everything you want.
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Anslo
Disciples of Night DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2010.07.01 13:47:00 -
[186]
Yes please remove learning skills so we can all take 10 times longer to train our crap CCP! :D....idiots.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:08:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Anslo Yes please remove learning skills so we can all take 10 times longer to train our crap CCP! :D....idiots.
L2read the OP post, noob.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Octoven
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:19:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Anslo Yes please remove learning skills so we can all take 10 times longer to train our crap CCP! :D....idiots.
I really hope your being sarcastic because had you bothered to even look at the other 6 pages that statement would be idiotic in itself.....if you are being sarcastic kudos lol.
Now to everyone else, poeple are so ****ed and saying you need to sacrifice time to get results...that is true but why should you sacrifice time in order to sacrifice time a little later a bit faster to get results? It is easy to see what is going on here, vet players have had this "high pedestal" position above noobs and the idea of noobs being able to train just as fast as them scare the hell out of them. Eve is dark, dank, evil, cold....yes it should be but thats after you get your toes wet. THIS is why noobs start in high sec and not 0.0 we just don't throw new players to the sharks...oh wait the learning skills do that sorry.
New players need to feel accomplished in what they do or they quit plain and simple. Now every single one of you vet players have no reason to *****. When YOU started eve you had 800K preset skills based towards what you wanted to do like fight or mine, you could basically start that career out of the box which gave you time to train learning skills. If you didn't like that career you simply trashed the toon and rolled another. The new players of today don't have that option they don't get 800K of free sp to start with. They don't get hardly any SP to start with. The time bonus helps yes but in the end they still have to train for a period of time and not have those skills at instant disposal such as allocation. So in the end they have no skills to even start the gameplay with PLUS they have to be training learning skills at the same time. Its a wonder we have retained any new players since they changed it.
Next time you vet players want to ***** think about that and realize you never had to choose between career skills and learning skills because you already had a significant amount of skills at hand, and if you happened to choose the wrong skill set you could always choose another in 10 hours. We arn't making a cry for noobs we aren't saying your time training skills is worthless, we are saying that noobs today do have it a bit harder then noobs of the past. I will tell you though that 100% time bonus means **** next to 800K instant SPs. We aren't trying to make the game easier for them but we are trying to make it a bit more fair and on an equal playing field as you. Soo....either give them 800K allocated SPs and leave the learning skills or take the learning skills out but NO ONE who created a toon before apoc needs to ***** because you had it easy in comparison.
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Plave Okice
Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:30:00 -
[189]
I really don't get why people would be against this, it's a good solution.
CCP know learning skills were a mistake, they've admitted it on multiple occasions. Tuesdays patch shows it's possible to add a pool of skillpoints for people to distribute, you think they wrote that just because of last weeks server downtime?
It would effectively give everyone the equivalent of max learning skills and give those of us with max learning skills get the sp back to put somewhere else, who can complain about that?
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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:38:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Deizel Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Edited the bulk of your post to reflect this.
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough (I should think), there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game possibly.
This could result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I am a jackass
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Originally by: GM Horse
Remember kids, both meth and macro use are Really Quite Bad Things.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Tragic smelting accidents.
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Th0rG0d
Omnimodus Operandi
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:39:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Octoven
When YOU started eve you had 800K preset skills based towards what you wanted to do like fight or mine... They don't get hardly any SP to start with. The time bonus helps yes but in the end they still have to train for a period of time and not have those skills at instant disposal such as allocation. So in the end they have no skills to even start the gameplay with PLUS they have to be training learning skills at the same time. Its a wonder we have retained any new players since they changed it.
I will tell you though that 100% time bonus means **** next to 800K instant SPs. We aren't trying to make the game easier for them but we are trying to make it a bit more fair and on an equal playing field as you. Soo....either give them 800K allocated SPs and leave the learning skills or take the learning skills out but NO ONE who created a toon before apoc needs to ***** because you had it easy in comparison.
WOW! You have no idea what you are talking about. Many vets started long before you started with 900k sp. You used to start with none, or 25k or something.
The 100% bonus to 1.6M sp is far superior to the 900k that you got to randomly allocated skills based on your bloodline/race. Now you can train all the learning skills you need well within the 1.6M you get, and get a boost to training right from the get go.
You sir, need to be sure you have the facts before you open your mouth again.
Adrift in New Eden |
Jeremiah Tameri
Azon Consortium
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:41:00 -
[192]
Learning skills should be removed, there's no valid reason why they should be kept in the game, they are just wasting time that could be spent on skilling up stuff that actually makes a difference to the players experience, especially for new players - do you know how crap it is waiting days for learning skills to get to decent levels when there's so many other things that need to be done?
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Dawne Xi
Minmatar 3D Salvage and Acquisitions
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:44:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Plave Okice I really don't get why people would be against this, it's a good solution.
CCP know learning skills were a mistake, they've admitted it on multiple occasions. Tuesdays patch shows it's possible to add a pool of skillpoints for people to distribute, you think they wrote that just because of last weeks server downtime?
It would effectively give everyone the equivalent of max learning skills and give those of us with max learning skills get the sp back to put somewhere else, who can complain about that?
This ^^ Nothing more needs to be said, close the thread.
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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:45:00 -
[194]
Originally by: T***G0d
The 100% bonus to 1.6M sp is far superior to the 900k that you got to randomly allocated skills based on your bloodline/race.
Naw dude, some of us liked making instant-use research alts.
Race > Any Gender > Any Bloodline > Achura or Deteis Inventors Engineer
Etc
Free 800k alt with research skills. -----
Originally by: GM Horse
Remember kids, both meth and macro use are Really Quite Bad Things.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Tragic smelting accidents.
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Octoven
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:46:00 -
[195]
Originally by: T***G0d
Originally by: Octoven
When YOU started eve you had 800K preset skills based towards what you wanted to do like fight or mine... They don't get hardly any SP to start with. The time bonus helps yes but in the end they still have to train for a period of time and not have those skills at instant disposal such as allocation. So in the end they have no skills to even start the gameplay with PLUS they have to be training learning skills at the same time. Its a wonder we have retained any new players since they changed it.
I will tell you though that 100% time bonus means **** next to 800K instant SPs. We aren't trying to make the game easier for them but we are trying to make it a bit more fair and on an equal playing field as you. Soo....either give them 800K allocated SPs and leave the learning skills or take the learning skills out but NO ONE who created a toon before apoc needs to ***** because you had it easy in comparison.
WOW! You have no idea what you are talking about. Many vets started long before you started with 900k sp. You used to start with none, or 25k or something.
The 100% bonus to 1.6M sp is far superior to the 900k that you got to randomly allocated skills based on your bloodline/race. Now you can train all the learning skills you need well within the 1.6M you get, and get a boost to training right from the get go.
You sir, need to be sure you have the facts before you open your mouth again.
You sir need to realize that training bonus means **** next to instant skills which was the point of that post....read between the lines before you open YOUR mouth again.
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Roshin Lokel
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:53:00 -
[196]
Ya know, this new skill allocation system wasn't put in here by accident...CCP had something up their sleeve even had the servers not been off for 30 hours. I knew that "We are giving you SP for the time you lost during DT" wasn't actually free....something was going to have to be paid. The system is now setup to start toons with as many SP as CCP deems AND remove the learning skills while giving back the SP older players have trained. So yeah its only a matter of time before learning skills are removed...sorry older fellows but I think CCP is for real with this idea.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:56:00 -
[197]
The blah blah about the past isn't really relevant, what's important that:
1. CCP stated they regret the introduction of learning skills; 2. They said they're looking for ways to remove them while not hurting the existing playerbase (in fact they even mentioned the SP return in the video, saying it would be quite a challenge for the programmers) 3. They have now succesfully made a way to reimburse skillpoints 4. ?? 5. Profit!
I don't see any valid argument for keeping them. After all the invested SP will be returned to you - so what exactly IS the problem??!?!
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Hemp Invader
GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:59:00 -
[198]
Can i get my learning SP's back please...like now? Pls CCP pls.
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Jasdiva
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:10:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring The blah blah about the past isn't really relevant, what's important that:
1. CCP stated they regret the introduction of learning skills; 2. They said they're looking for ways to remove them while not hurting the existing playerbase (in fact they even mentioned the SP return in the video, saying it would be quite a challenge for the programmers) 3. They have now succesfully made a way to reimburse skillpoints 4. ?? 5. Profit!
I don't see any valid argument for keeping them. After all the invested SP will be returned to you - so what exactly IS the problem??!?!
The idiotic vets think they will be disadvantaged or something. lulz
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Tarasina
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:30:00 -
[200]
I'm all for removing learning skills, they add nothing to the game other than the noob tip: Train them early on. And a possible sci-fi feeling (which I did not experience). It's not like training learning skills is a choice either.
If there was a case like this: You are aiming for a carrier or such and learning skills would only be affecting such paths. Then I would see a reason but right now its a general given that everyone has learning skills trained to a sufficient level.
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Fenris Ulfur
Bio Material Inc
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:33:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Fenris Ulfur on 01/07/2010 15:33:44
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Anslo Yes please remove learning skills so we can all take 10 times longer to train our crap CCP! :D....idiots.
L2read the OP post, noob.
Learn how to write, tough guy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "But rather than that you question my courage, let someone put his hand in my mouth as a pledge that this is done in good faith" |
Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:36:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Fenris Ulfur Edited by: Fenris Ulfur on 01/07/2010 15:33:44
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Anslo Yes please remove learning skills so we can all take 10 times longer to train our crap CCP! :D....idiots.
L2read the OP post, noob.
Learn how to write, tough guy.
no u
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
AlPuma
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:36:00 -
[203]
Not bad idea ;)
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WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:48:00 -
[204]
Edited by: WittyName Here on 01/07/2010 15:50:41
Originally by: Khun SP Edited by: Khun SP on 01/07/2010 12:13:23 This is the sux...
You want EVE to become the new WOW???
On this game you need a BRAIN, to decide whether train learning skills or not, and many other decissions. Depending on how wise you were, you become succesful or not.
Kill learning skills and you will kill a key decission question for EVE players.
P.S. are they removing attribute implants aswell? that would be the awesome lulzors.. at least this change would imply a bigger will to do PvP...
Are you thick? Based on your post, you imply that after learning skills, there are no important decisions to make regarding training skills.
As someone mentioned a few posts above you:
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 10:57:41 As with the current training speed - even with +5 implants and learning skills to V - it still takes 30 years for all skills. I think we should get rid of learning skills. Better still: increase learning speed to 4,000 SP/hr max. Games shouldn't require a 10 year investment to be able to get to "the top stuff". It's just a hobby, not work!
Are you telling me that between those years of training until you max all your skills (if you ever do, mind), you don't have to make any more important decisions regarding training skills?
Are you that ****ing stupid?
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Fenris Ulfur
Bio Material Inc
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:48:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Fenris Ulfur on 01/07/2010 15:48:37
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Fenris Ulfur Edited by: Fenris Ulfur on 01/07/2010 15:33:44
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Anslo Yes please remove learning skills so we can all take 10 times longer to train our crap CCP! :D....idiots.
L2read the OP post, noob.
Learn how to write, tough guy.
no u
That just proves my point.
Regarding the issue at hand; I would love to redistribute the skill points that went into my learning skills for something more useful, given that the attribute requirements on skills were lowered (which in turn would mean more skill points to redistribute since the times would be shorter now). I wouldn't want every character in EVE to have the same amount of attributes since having the option of maximizing the attributes for a certain training regime makes the whole skill side of the game much more dynamic in my opinion --------------------------------------------------------------------- "But rather than that you question my courage, let someone put his hand in my mouth as a pledge that this is done in good faith" |
Nisanthro
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Posted - 2010.07.01 16:21:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Karak Terrel
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
My personal prediction is that CCP will remove the SPs of anyone that starts yet another thread on the removal of leaning skills/selling SPs/SP reallocation and distribute them amongst the rest of the player base.
+1
+1
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2010.07.01 16:40:00 -
[207]
Only reason to keep learning skills is because i've trained all but charisma to 5... so i'm gaining more SP than the average eve player(with 4/4 or 5/4) which in turn is giving me upper hand on fights in future.
anyway I'm for allowing players to reallocate the SP placed into learning skils and giving everyone same stats.
It's stupid telling nub to afk and learn to learn first few weeks. It's only few weeks but it's the weeks player is most enthusiasted, interested and addicted into a game you shouldn't hold him back...
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Eli Porter
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Posted - 2010.07.01 16:55:00 -
[208]
I would be ok with this, actually.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:30:00 -
[209]
So after taking out these skills and giving everyone free +10 attributes, what's next? Hey +5 implants are really expensive and a noob can't afford them, not to mention that pesky cybernetics 5. Why don't we just remove them all and give everyone an extra +5 also? Hey, I'm a noob and I can't be bothered to train gunnery skills. I MUST train them before I can do anything fun (shoot stuff) so why should they be required? Noobs should start with small racial turret and supports at 5.
Where does it stop? All I see in these threads is people looking for a handout.
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Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:39:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Jekyl Eraser
It's stupid telling nub to afk and learn to learn first few weeks. It's only few weeks but it's the weeks player is most enthusiasted, interested and addicted into a game you shouldn't hold him back...
this. i got a friend into this recently and all he can do is afk and wait for learning skills to finish til he can pvp.
worst system ever. id love to re-allocate my learning sp. implants should be made to have more powerful properties because of this. i do not think a straight +10 to everyones attributes is a good idea, because that removes any meaning behind the attribute system at all. it is an interesting, archaeic system that many of us old vets do enjoy, and we'd still like to have a way to work the system, but we also understand that learning skills in particular are an enormous roadblock in the way of the eve online newb, and as such, needs to be removed for the game to continue its upward trend of popularity.
TLDR: remove learning skills, make implants more important and less expensive at the lower end, make cybernetics more important, do not give +10 attributes to everyone, and CCP will see significantly increased new player retention rates.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:42:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Ghaylenty
this. i got a friend into this recently and all he can do is afk and wait for learning skills to finish til he can pvp.
You are a terrible friend for telling him to do this.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:49:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Ghaylenty
this. i got a friend into this recently and all he can do is afk and wait for learning skills to finish til he can pvp.
You are a terrible friend for telling him to do this.
I would tend to agree, but only because the game requires a certain amount of inefficiency in order to actually enjoy the time when you're supposed to be the *MOST* pumped up about the game. Like we've been saying: a game mechanic that rewards people for not playing in that time period is ****ING STUPID. I personally don't even care if CCP gives learning skills back to the "oldies" like me - but I damn sure want to ensure that no noobs ever have to train them again.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:56:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 18:04:23
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Ranger 1
Now things become crystal clear, you don't understand the strategy behind learning skills so you claim there is none.
If you are trying out the game but aren't sure if it is for you, train the skills that help you immediately. If you decide you are going to stick with the game, start picking off learning skills here and there to help you long term. If you are familiar with the game and want a quick specialty alt, forget learning skills on that alt. If you are familiar with the game and are building up what will be a long term character on another account or possibly a cap ship alt with other support skills, train learning skills first.
Deciding if I'm going to sit down and play a game of chess is not a strategy for playing a game of chess.
Actually, a great deal of the strategy that goes into high level chess matches is formulated before the game ever starts.
I would avoid using analogies that refer to games that require forethought and planning... apparently they are not your forte.
Edit: Quote: Like we've been saying: a game mechanic that rewards people for not playing in that time period is ****ING STUPID.
Since when does training any skill of a support nature keep you from playing?
Training does not equal playing.
Playing does not equal training.
A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).
People, this is not a difficult concept. Not every skill in the game makes your guns immediately hit harder or your shields instantly stronger. Many are more of a support nature, not of an instant gratification nature, however they are important to the character overall. Learning skills are of this nature. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:56:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Ghaylenty
this. i got a friend into this recently and all he can do is afk and wait for learning skills to finish til he can pvp.
You are a terrible friend for telling him to do this.
I would tend to agree, but only because the game requires a certain amount of inefficiency in order to actually enjoy the time when you're supposed to be the *MOST* pumped up about the game. Like we've been saying: a game mechanic that rewards people for not playing in that time period is ****ING STUPID. I personally don't even care if CCP gives learning skills back to the "oldies" like me - but I damn sure want to ensure that no noobs ever have to train them again.
-Liang
I did not tell him to train learning skills. He is a hardcore player of past MMO's and as such can research much of the information on his own, and does not need someone to hold his hand.
It is that very same drive that also compels him to stay docked or mine in a noob ship until he reaches 4/4.. not even 5/5. I tried to get him to come out to low sec and gank some fools but I sympathize with the desire to 'ready oneself' due to the way the learning system is currently setup.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 17:59:00 -
[215]
So your friend is a min/maxer who is choosing not to have fun then. It's not the game's fault.
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Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:11:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Ghaylenty on 01/07/2010 18:12:06
Originally by: Felix Esperium So your friend is a min/maxer who is choosing not to have fun then. It's not the game's fault.
Wrong. It is the game's fault for rewarding min/maxing more than actual playing during the time the new player is most excited and wanting to play the game.
Let me guess. You trained all your learning skills to 5, and your toon ISNT 4 1/2 years old yet. Outside of that, the only reason for you to be bitter is simple: You're a d-bag.
So which one is it?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:13:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Since when does training any skill of a support nature keep you from playing?
When was the last time you started an alt, Ranger? Seriously - you will not play the game if you make the "optimal" decision that yields the greatest result in the long run. It's really hard to "play" the game with 20K SP.... so hard in fact that you cannot complete the new player tutorial.
Quote: A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).
I tend to agree, but that player is penalized next to a player who plays it "smart" and burns their 1.6M SP on learning.
Quote: People, this is not a difficult concept. Not every skill in the game makes your guns immediately hit harder or your shields instantly stronger. Many are more of a support nature, not of an instant gratification nature, however they are important to the character overall. Learning skills are of this nature.
People, this is not a difficult concept. Skills which reward not playing the game and penalize playing the game - especially in the trial period - are poor game design. Learning skills are of this nature.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:13:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Felix Esperium So your friend is a min/maxer who is choosing not to have fun then. It's not the game's fault.
It's partially the game's job to steer players into having fun. Learning skills do the opposite.
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Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:22:00 -
[219]
Only if people with 20-30+ million skillpoints get some kind of bonus because not everybody trained all advanced skills to 5
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:25:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 01/07/2010 18:29:26
Originally by: Ghaylenty
Wrong. It is the game's fault for rewarding min/maxing more than actual playing during the time the new player is most excited and wanting to play the game.
Let me guess. You trained all your learning skills to 5, and your toon ISNT 4 1/2 years old yet. Outside of that, the only reason for you to be bitter is simple: You're a d-bag.
So which one is it?
Actually both my accounts are at 5/4 so any sort of free +10 attribute handouts would be a direct buff to me. I have said that I don't necessarily disagree with removing the learning skills. I don't agree with free attributes for everyone. I also don't agree with the notion that everyone MUST train learning skills above all else in their first weeks. You are assuming that everyone measure the value and rewards of a game the same way.
Edit: also I forgot to add, ad hominem arguments are cool. Maybe I could say that the only way for you to support this idea is if you're a complete douche as well.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:34:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ranger 1 Since when does training any skill of a support nature keep you from playing?
When was the last time you started an alt, Ranger? Seriously - you will not play the game if you make the "optimal" decision that yields the greatest result in the long run. It's really hard to "play" the game with 20K SP.... so hard in fact that you cannot complete the new player tutorial.
Quote: A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).
I tend to agree, but that player is penalized next to a player who plays it "smart" and burns their 1.6M SP on learning.
Quote: People, this is not a difficult concept. Not every skill in the game makes your guns immediately hit harder or your shields instantly stronger. Many are more of a support nature, not of an instant gratification nature, however they are important to the character overall. Learning skills are of this nature.
People, this is not a difficult concept. Skills which reward not playing the game and penalize playing the game - especially in the trial period - are poor game design. Learning skills are of this nature.
-Liang
I have created many alts. Some have learning skills, some do not.
This was a decision based on my plan for the character.
You are proposing to remove this decision from me (for my own good), and I'm simply not in favor of it.
I prefer to build my characters and alts around my own decisions, and prefer not to have the advantages/disadvantages of each approach removed because someone else would rather not be bothered.
In the example given a couple of posts above, the experienced MMO player (new to EVE however) has made his decision. That decision being to give up some short term gains to have a long term advantage. This decision was his to make, and you wish to take that choice away from him.
This is somewhat akin to removing all mining skills from the game, and just having everyone train a generic skill called mining, because many people do not enjoy mining and think training all of those skills are simply a waste of time. Indeed, they cut into the time a new player should be devoting to combat skills.
That's not your decision to make, no matter how much you strive to justify it.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:36:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Ranger 1
A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).
Close. A new player (who has no sugar daddy) should use the accelerated training and remaps to optimize his ISK generation and otherwise get to a level where they can have a bit of fun. Then they stop their skill queue, create a 2nd toon on the same account and set that new toon on the month+ long journey that is 5/4 learning skills. (And, if a combat pilot, should probably throw in T2 Drone skills too in order to squeeze the most out of the mem/int attribute remap used to train the learning skills.)
The first toon runs around generating the isk for the advanced learning skillbooks. Once the second toon is done with the learning skills (35 days) and has enough skills to be fun, the first toon is abandoned.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:39:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Actually both my accounts are at 5/4 so any sort of free +10 attribute handouts would be a direct buff to me. I have said that I don't necessarily disagree with removing the learning skills. I don't agree with free attributes for everyone. I also don't agree with the notion that everyone MUST train learning skills above all else in their first weeks. You are assuming that everyone measure the value and rewards of a game the same way.
Your point seems to be that "Maybe some people are deciding to not train the learning skills because they want to train something that's actually fun for them." First, almost no one does that, because they know they'll be screwing themselves if they stay more than a month, and second, even if they are, SO WHAT?! If you remove learning, those people would be happier because they'll advance at the normal rate even though they didn't want to train learning. The people who would train learning would be happier because they don't need to train it and can train something else. Everyone wins. The only thing that you seem to be applauding the learning skills for is that they are a way to punish the first group of people for daring to train something they find fun in the first few weeks of the game instead of training the boring learning skills like you're supposed to. Seriously, what in the hell is good about that? "Oh, hello new player, you decided to train something fun instead of choosing the most boring skill in the game. You need to be punished." No, that's a stupid system, and I can't believe that some people think that way.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:41:00 -
[224]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Ranger 1
A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).
Close. A new player (who has no sugar daddy) should use the accelerated training and remaps to optimize his ISK generation and otherwise get to a level where they can have a bit of fun. Then they stop their skill queue, create a 2nd toon on the same account and set that new toon on the month+ long journey that is 5/4 learning skills. (And, if a combat pilot, should probably throw in T2 Drone skills too in order to squeeze the most out of the mem/int attribute remap used to train the learning skills.)
The first toon runs around generating the isk for the advanced learning skillbooks. Once the second toon is done with the learning skills (35 days) and has enough skills to be fun, the first toon is abandoned.
But wait, I was told there is no strategy involved with learning skills.
I don't believe you even have to train the basic learning skills to 5 anymore to be able to progress to the upper tier, but I am old and somewhat senile so I could be mistaken.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:42:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Ranger 1 I have created many alts. Some have learning skills, some do not. This was a decision based on my plan for the character. You are proposing to remove this decision from me (for my own good), and I'm simply not in favor of it.
It's hardly a "choice" to do learning skills. The reality of the situation is that learning skills remove the ability of people to efficiently make use of their double time period. You even get to the crux of the issue here:
Quote: Indeed, they cut into the time a new player should be devoting to combat skills.
I'll neglect the implication that you think mining isn't a thing to do in the game. But ultimately, right there, you just hit the nail on the head. They cut into the time that the new player should be devoting to being and feeling productive in the game - whatever path they choose.
Quote: That's not your decision to make, no matter how much you strive to justify it.
It is poor game design and needs to be removed. Period. End of subject - no matter how much you attempt to justify the "depth" it adds removes from the game.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:45:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Your point seems to be that "Maybe some people are deciding to not train the learning skills because they want to train something that's actually fun for them." First, almost no one does that, because they know they'll be screwing themselves if they stay more than a month, and second, even if they are, SO WHAT?! If you remove learning, those people would be happier because they'll advance at the normal rate even though they didn't want to train learning. The people who would train learning would be happier because they don't need to train it and can train something else. Everyone wins. The only thing that you seem to be applauding the learning skills for is that they are a way to punish the first group of people for daring to train something they find fun in the first few weeks of the game instead of training the boring learning skills like you're supposed to. Seriously, what in the hell is good about that? "Oh, hello new player, you decided to train something fun instead of choosing the most boring skill in the game. You need to be punished." No, that's a stupid system, and I can't believe that some people think that way.
Why is 5/5 learning skills considered to be the "normal rate"? All I see in your argument is "Hi I want the benefits of these skills without training the skills." Where does that stop? Are we going to start new players off with cybernetics 5 and +5's too? Because you know training that skill and buying those implants are a serious pain.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:59:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ranger 1 Since when does training any skill of a support nature keep you from playing?
When was the last time you started an alt, Ranger? Seriously - you will not play the game if you make the "optimal" decision that yields the greatest result in the long run. It's really hard to "play" the game with 20K SP.... so hard in fact that you cannot complete the new player tutorial.
Quote: A new player should train what he needs to function up front and then blend in learning skills once he formulates a plan for his character (assuming he decides after a couple of weeks that he likes the game and will continue it for a significant amount of time).
I tend to agree, but that player is penalized next to a player who plays it "smart" and burns their 1.6M SP on learning.
Quote: People, this is not a difficult concept. Not every skill in the game makes your guns immediately hit harder or your shields instantly stronger. Many are more of a support nature, not of an instant gratification nature, however they are important to the character overall. Learning skills are of this nature.
People, this is not a difficult concept. Skills which reward not playing the game and penalize playing the game - especially in the trial period - are poor game design. Learning skills are of this nature.
-Liang
I have created many alts. Some have learning skills, some do not.
This was a decision based on my plan for the character.
You are proposing to remove this decision from me (for my own good), and I'm simply not in favor of it.
I prefer to build my characters and alts around my own decisions, and prefer not to have the advantages/disadvantages of each approach removed because someone else would rather not be bothered.
In the example given a couple of posts above, the experienced MMO player (new to EVE however) has made his decision. That decision being to give up some short term gains to have a long term advantage. This decision was his to make, and you wish to take that choice away from him.
This is somewhat akin to removing all mining skills from the game, and just having everyone train a generic skill called mining, because many people do not enjoy mining and think training all of those skills are simply a waste of time. Indeed, they cut into the time a new player should be devoting to combat skills.
That's not your decision to make, no matter how much you strive to justify it.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2010.07.01 18:59:00 -
[228]
I spent the time to learn these skills (to 5/4 at least, learning 5) and removing them is still a great idea. The first time I ever seriously burned out of EVE was when I finally sat down to train learning skills (in the first weeks I trained the basics to 2 or 3 and left them there). I was six months into the game and they really put me off after a month of training "nothing".
This is in contrast to the awful "I did it, so everyone else should have to" argument, because I did it and wouldn't wish it on anybody else. I even did the smart thing and trained essential/fun skills before settling into the learning path. They were still boring when I got around to it.
Would love to see them go. They do no good for the game.
But for the record, I only changed my sig because I was annoying myself with the last one.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:02:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 19:05:02
Originally by: Felix Esperium Why is 5/5 learning skills considered to be the "normal rate"? All I see in your argument is "Hi I want the benefits of these skills without training the skills." Where does that stop? Are we going to start new players off with cybernetics 5 and +5's too? Because you know training that skill and buying those implants are a serious pain.
What a silly argument.
Don't forget that YOU will ALSO get free skills and skillpoints, so it doesn't make any difference - basically every player, new or old, will get 2 months of skilltraining for free. I don't see why people so foolishly object to that.
Personally I still think 5/5 learning and +5 implants is still an abnormal rate just in case you want to know. 2,770/hour is still quite sluggish; I'd say 4,000 would be a more decent rate with the increasing number of skills worth a handful extra months of training that every expansion offered us.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:04:00 -
[230]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 19:05:18
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ranger 1 I have created many alts. Some have learning skills, some do not. This was a decision based on my plan for the character. You are proposing to remove this decision from me (for my own good), and I'm simply not in favor of it.
It's hardly a "choice" to do learning skills. The reality of the situation is that learning skills remove the ability of people to efficiently make use of their double time period.
Actually people train characters all the time that do not have any learning skills, usually for very specific purposes. For that matter many new players don't even give them a second glance until well past their first few weeks of play and instead work on thier combat or industry basics during thier double time period. Your assumption has no basis in fact.
Quote: Indeed, they cut into the time a new player should be devoting to combat skills.
I'll neglect the implication that you think mining isn't a thing to do in the game. But ultimately, right there, you just hit the nail on the head. They cut into the time that the new player should be devoting to being and feeling productive in the game - whatever path they choose.
I implied no such thing. I stated that your stance on learning skills makes no more sense than the removal of (insert whatever bores you personally in EVE) skills. You do realize that many people consider preparing themselvs for rapid training later on is in fact time spent productively, and don't feel that they have to currently be training combat skills to start PVP, or mining skills to start mining. Apparently the nail you are trying to drive home is actually a screw.
Quote: That's not your decision to make, no matter how much you strive to justify it.
It is poor game design and needs to be removed. Period. End of subject - no matter how much you attempt to justify the "depth" it adds removes from the game.
-Liang
Because you do not see any value in it does not automatically make it so. In fact, the responses in this thread should show you that it is far from the "End of Subject", no matter how much you try to assert otherwise.
If a better system is created that REPLACES learning skills with another mechanic that requires choices to be made in creating your character... and does not automatically reduce everyones learning time (lets face it, that IS the underlying point here now isn't it... see the post above if you have any doubt) then thats fine. Worming your way into chopping the amount of time necessary to attain high skill levels in EVE, and minimizing the need to think about what you train, is NOT going to fly. Period. End of Story.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:07:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Why is 5/5 learning skills considered to be the "normal rate"? All I see in your argument is "Hi I want the benefits of these skills without training the skills." Where does that stop? Are we going to start new players off with cybernetics 5 and +5's too? Because you know training that skill and buying those implants are a serious pain.
Your the one talking about the "normal rate" the rest of us have been talking about the max rate. I thought it was safe to assume that no one here is trying to get the max rate decreased so if they removed learning skills everyone would have to be set at the max rate or it would be decreased.
Cybernetics does not just affect you stats, it is not a learning skill, it gives 5x the possible stat increase for the same training time as just one advanced learning skills,the primary barrier to implant use is cost not trying time, and CCP has never said adding implants was a mistake. What i am trying to get across here is that almost every person bring up removing cybernetics are the people against removing training skills. Stop trying to pull other random crap (like cybernetics) into the discussion as example of why you can't remove almost completely unrelated skills (learning skills that only effect stats and nothing else).
Learning skills that effect stats and learning speed are not the same thing that Cybernetics that allows usage of in game items that effect stats, shields, damage, research, salvaging, propulsion, etc...
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:15:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Ranger 1 In fact, the responses in this thread should show you that it is far from the "End of Subject", no matter how much you try to assert otherwise.
If a better system is created that REPLACES learning skills with another mechanic that requires choices to be made in creating your character... and does not automatically reduce everyones learning time (lets face it, that IS the underlying point here now isn't it... see the post above if you have any doubt) then thats fine. Worming your way into chopping the amount of time necessary to attain high skill levels in EVE, and minimizing the need to think about what you train, is NOT going to fly. Period. End of Story.
There will always be conservatives that stand in the way of progression. Doesn't mean it should stop it.
"Thinking about what you train" is quite nonsensic. Everyone knows that you'll need all attributes for your skilltraining so you better train all related learning skills (perhaps charisma excepted). 90% of the skills are int/mem or per/wil. It's not that difficult. And getting to see that and investing 6 weeks of training into it - I don't see the added value, especially if some players will walk away from the game because they think 6 weeks of subscription for silly learning skills training is a bit over the top while the other skills already take 30 years.
It's not what you'd call a strategic challenge, it's just a test of patience or perhaps more accurate: tedium.
And if they're removed - who cares? As I said before: EVERYONE basically gets 2 months of free skilltime, why shouldn't you be happy?
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:17:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
Your point seems to be that "Maybe some people are deciding to not train the learning skills because they want to train something that's actually fun for them." First, almost no one does that, because they know they'll be screwing themselves if they stay more than a month, and second, even if they are, SO WHAT?! If you remove learning, those people would be happier because they'll advance at the normal rate even though they didn't want to train learning. The people who would train learning would be happier because they don't need to train it and can train something else. Everyone wins. The only thing that you seem to be applauding the learning skills for is that they are a way to punish the first group of people for daring to train something they find fun in the first few weeks of the game instead of training the boring learning skills like you're supposed to. Seriously, what in the hell is good about that? "Oh, hello new player, you decided to train something fun instead of choosing the most boring skill in the game. You need to be punished." No, that's a stupid system, and I can't believe that some people think that way.
Why is 5/5 learning skills considered to be the "normal rate"? All I see in your argument is "Hi I want the benefits of these skills without training the skills." Where does that stop? Are we going to start new players off with cybernetics 5 and +5's too? Because you know training that skill and buying those implants are a serious pain.
It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi. The point is that if you have a skill that you have to train in order to advance at a faster rate, everyone is going to train those skills to whatever the optimal level is. I don't think 5/5 is "normal" personally, I think 5/4 is much more common, but if they are going to get rid of the skills they'll have to set the attributes to the current max, otherwise they'd be taking away points from the bitter vets who would cry and scream about losing their extra attribute point even though they simultaneously make grandiose points about how attribute points aren't really that important and that the game is really about "player skill". I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:21:00 -
[234]
Having read most of this thread, my view of this has gone from "Learning skills were a bad idea and should probably be gotten rid of" to "OMG FFS CCP WHY DID YOU NOT FIX THIS LIKE YESTERDAY GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS NAO ARRRGGHH?!?!?!?!?!"
Thing is, people forget how utterly stupid the waiting period is. It can feel sort of tactical at the time, like you're making a wise investment. But really I'd just have more fun stuff to do now (and have been doing it for longer) if learning skills had simply never been implemented in the first place.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:25:00 -
[235]
This is for the 'play the game now' and 'train the learning skills as you need them' crowd.
The main reason to rush the training of all the learning skills is to take the most advantage of the accelerated training bonus and the free remaps. So how about we do away with the accelerated training bonus and eliminate the need to use one of the remaps on the learning skills?
Alternative Solution to Removing the Learning Skills: * Get rid of the accelerated training skill bonus. Give new chars the 800k bonus skill points straight up. This gives them accelerated training bonus up front. These bonus points cannot be used on learning skills.
* Learning skills no longer have primary/secondary attributes. They train at a constant rate. This rate should match what a new character with optimized attributes would train at.
Benefits: * Folks can train the attributes they need now, instead of all attributes to 5/4 at once. If I'm training a PvP Rifter, I can skip training Charisma until much later. This smooths out the learning skill curve and makes it less front loaded. * Folks don't have to worry about wasting a remap on the learning skills. * We keep the learning skills. (Yes, that's a disadvantage to some.) * With 800k, it's easier to create an alt to try out other aspects of the game.
Disadvantages: * 800k of instant gratification. Could lead to quickie one-shot throw away alts. (Quick and cheap Hulkageddon pilots.) * Probably a pain for CCP to implement. * Even though greatly reduced, 'sitting on hands while training learning skills' still exists.
Side note: This idea is probably similar to the 'create a second training queue just for learning skills' that I've seen mentioned before.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Janjan Jansen
Amarr Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:25:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Obyrith Having read most of this thread, my view of this has gone from "Learning skills were a bad idea and should probably be gotten rid of" to "OMG FFS CCP WHY DID YOU NOT FIX THIS LIKE YESTERDAY GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS NAO ARRRGGHH?!?!?!?!?!"
Thing is, people forget how utterly stupid the waiting period is. It can feel sort of tactical at the time, like you're making a wise investment. But really I'd just have more fun stuff to do now (and have been doing it for longer) if learning skills had simply never been implemented in the first place.
So you think it's a good plan to have 2 month time sink on all characters, it seems like a bad business model to me. But it's harder to solve this legacy thing then you might think eve is a complicated game.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:42:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 19:44:41
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Ranger 1 In fact, the responses in this thread should show you that it is far from the "End of Subject", no matter how much you try to assert otherwise.
If a better system is created that REPLACES learning skills with another mechanic that requires choices to be made in creating your character... and does not automatically reduce everyones learning time (lets face it, that IS the underlying point here now isn't it... see the post above if you have any doubt) then thats fine. Worming your way into chopping the amount of time necessary to attain high skill levels in EVE, and minimizing the need to think about what you train, is NOT going to fly. Period. End of Story.
There will always be conservatives that stand in the way of progression. Doesn't mean it should stop it.
"Thinking about what you train" is quite nonsensic. Everyone knows that you'll need all attributes for your skilltraining so you better train all related learning skills (perhaps charisma excepted). 90% of the skills are int/mem or per/wil. It's not that difficult. And getting to see that and investing 6 weeks of training into it - I don't see the added value, especially if some players will walk away from the game because they think 6 weeks of subscription for silly learning skills training is a bit over the top while the other skills already take 30 years.
It's not what you'd call a strategic challenge, it's just a test of patience or perhaps more accurate: tedium.
And if they're removed - who cares? As I said before: EVERYONE basically gets 2 months of free skilltime, why shouldn't you be happy?
Perhaps you should re-read the part of my post you quoted, especially the "a differnt mechanic would be acceptable if" section before you slap that conservative label on me (apparently you think that conservative is the opposite of progress, which is an interesting if remarkably childlike view of reality). Change for the sake of change often does not equate to progress.
You might also take a moment to read the sections of this thread that discuss all of the various methods/schemes/plans others have put thought into on how/when/if they are going to train learning skills. What you assume to be a simple decision is, in fact, far from it. There are many cases where you would not train learning skills on a particular character, or delay it until after your initial training spurt is over. You assume everybody trains their characters in the same way, for the same purposes as you do. This is incorrect. You assume far too much.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Leisen
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:45:00 -
[238]
While training learning skills is universally hated, it rewards patience. Also, if they removed learning skills, I would want my fkn 2-3 months of training back!
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:48:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Mathias Black
It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi.....
...I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.
So are you cool with them removing the skills and not buffing attributes for free? That is what I have been saying this whole time. Everyone wants their free +10 attribute points, but if you don't care about the rate then I think we are in agreement. Give everyone their learning SP back, remove the skills, and that's it. No more learning skills that people will be "forced" to train.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:52:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi.....
...I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.
So are you cool with them removing the skills and not buffing attributes for free? That is what I have been saying this whole time. Everyone wants their free +10 attribute points, but if you don't care about the rate then I think we are in agreement. Give everyone their learning SP back, remove the skills, and that's it. No more learning skills that people will be "forced" to train.
That'd be pretty awesome because I'd have a ridiculous amount of SP and it'd be really hard for anyone to ever catch me! It'd like quintuple the amount of time it would take to get into a properly skilled BS! NOOB KILLIN TIME BABY!
The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4. Note that I have 5/5s so I'm actually suggesting nerfing my own training times.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:56:00 -
[241]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 19:59:00
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi.....
...I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.
So are you cool with them removing the skills and not buffing attributes for free? That is what I have been saying this whole time. Everyone wants their free +10 attribute points, but if you don't care about the rate then I think we are in agreement. Give everyone their learning SP back, remove the skills, and that's it. No more learning skills that people will be "forced" to train.
Indeed.
If you were "forced" to train the skills, you were also "forced" to accept the +10 attribute points that came with them.
Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason.
Everyone would then be training at the same rate, no temptation to "waste" that time and "not play". A level playing field.
... Or is the idea of everyone automatically getting a huge boost to their attributes really the whole point after all? If it is not, then you should have no objection. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 19:59:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4.
-Liang
You're real big on these absolutes like "must" and yet you do very little to actually prove that this absolutely without question "must" happen.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:02:00 -
[243]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/07/2010 20:05:49
Originally by: Ranger 1 Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason.
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4.
-Liang
You're real big on these absolutes like "must" and yet you do very little to actually prove that this absolutely without question "must" happen.
The real question is why you should be allowed to retain a 15 year training time advantage over new players. That's why the removal of learning skills must come with a subsequent attribute boost.
-Liang
Ed: And in case you don't get it: players who took advantage of learning skills would have a massively disproportionate gain for having done so with the much longer training times. The flip side is that with everyone normalized to faster training times, this discrepancy doesn't exist at all. Pilots who didn't take advantage of learning skills are still penalized while pilots who did don't see any real change. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:08:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4. Note that I have 5/5s so I'm actually suggesting nerfing my own training times.
Pffff! Spare us the noble self-sacrifice, you sanctimonious self-proclaimed forum *****! You would get the skills point back, and since it takes "3 Years 235 Days 11 Hours 3 Minutes & 38 Seconds" for the advanced skills to pay for themselves after training them from 4 to 5, your martyrdom wouldn't start until you'd probably left the game anyway.
;-)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:15:00 -
[245]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 20:16:44
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ranger 1 Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason.
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4.
-Liang
You're real big on these absolutes like "must" and yet you do very little to actually prove that this absolutely without question "must" happen.
The real question is why you should be allowed to retain a 15 year training time advantage over new players. That's why the removal of learning skills must come with a subsequent attribute boost.
-Liang
But we were "forced" to waste time learning those skills, and newer players won't be.
After all, the whole point to removing learning skills is to keep new players from being forced to train skills that "keep them from playing the game" right? The advantages granted to a character that trains those skills have nothing to do with it (apparently).
Interesting how when faced with the idea of a truly level playing field (everyone keeping the initial attributes they pick, altered only by remapping and implants) training those skills now suddenly have tremendous value, as opposed to a stupid mechanic that serves no purpose.
I think the truth is that no matter what sacrifices people that have trained the learning skills would be willing to make for the sake of "fairness" to their fellow (non-strategically minded) fellow gamers you would refuse the proposal. They could agree to give up thier higher stats, skill being reimbursed, even take a penalty (for god knows what reason) to their skill point total... and if you could not have your "everybody gets boosted up" wish granted you would refuse to go for it.
Because thats what it's really all about.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:17:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Ben Derindar I'm not really bothered what happens with learning skills at this point, however do I feel compelled to add a bit of perspective to this discussion anyway.
It took me a year to get my learning skills all to 5/4, another 2 years to start filling my head with +3 implants, and another 2 years to start using +4s and finish my learning skills to 5/5.
I cbf doing the maths to work out how much SP I've potentially missed out on by not training all my learning skills ASAP, but let's pick a number and go with 2 mil SP for argument's sake, or approximately 50 days.
Now that would mean that, since I currently have 101 mil SP after 6 years, I've only been training at around... 98% efficiency over that entire period?
OH NOES.
Wow, so, you mean if you completely just make up the math it doesn't seem like a big deal? Who would have thought. You should actually DO the math and see if you actually want to add anything meaningful.
In case you missed it the first time, I cbf doing the maths to work out how much SP I've potentially missed out on by not training all my learning skills ASAP. So I'm lazy about how I play a game, sue me.
Originally by: Mathias Black We can't know what you were training, but if you didn't train the learning skills and had no implants for a year you were training at roughly 35% efficiency during that year, and could have nearly tripled what you learned if you had done learning first and bought implants. Assuming you then went up to 80% for year 2 after you trained them, and 95% for year 3 when you finally bought implants, 100% for year four and five when you got expensive implants... your total efficiency would be the average of the percentages, or 82%. So if you had instead done things in the correct order and bought your implants early, you'd have an extra 328 days of training to spend... almost a full extra year. So, yes, you were stupid.
If, indeed. I did say my skills were 5/4 within the first year, and while I did use implants in those early days, it was usually only one +3 at a time in the primary attribute of skills that I was focusing on at that time. Whenever I'd get podded, I'd plug in a different +3 and push something else for a while and so on. It was only in later years as I began to PvP less, that I started filling my head, as it were.
In any case, given that those first two years of my time in Eve were by far the most enjoyable (before sovereignty, capitals, logon traps and other associated rubbish became the norm), I don't mind being accused of stupidity with regard to my skill training during that time in the slightest. I did what I wanted in order to have fun.
Originally by: Mathias Black But apart from this, the point is you DID eventually train the learning skills, which again shows it's not really much of a choice. If you chose not to train them, you'd have been at 35% speed the entire time, meaning you would be 1186 days behind what you should be at after 5 years. That's 3.25 YEARS. You would be 3 years behind someone who took the learning skills. Seriously, what sort of "choice" is that. The only reason you would "choose" that is if you are a complete idiot.
On the question of whether or not people should train learning skills at all, of course I agree. But there is still choice in the matter, concerning exactly *when* people should train them. I chose not to sacrifice my fun factor too much and mixed my learnings up with other things as I went along.
That choice still applies to every player, and I don't regret the choice I made.
/Ben
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:19:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Ranger 1 If you were "forced" to train the skills, you were also "forced" to accept the +10 attribute points that came with them.
Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason. Everyone would then be training at the same rate, no temptation to "waste" that time and "not play". A level playing field.
... Or is the idea of everyone automatically getting a huge boost to their attributes really the whole point after all? If it is not, then you should have no objection.
Yep. The intention (and CCP's intention) was to grant everyone the +10 attributes and restitute the SP to people who already spent time on it so they can put it to better use.
When it's all done new players will never know that they ever existed. I won't miss them and I can't imagine a single new player would wish they still were in the game.
And well "no apparent reason", the learning skills are there for "no apparent reason" imo. Except a 6 week tedium.
(And sorry if I was too generalistic in my previous post)
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Leisen
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:20:00 -
[248]
I'm fine with Learning skills being removed..but I would require some serious compensation. I mean I had to sit around for 2-3 months, so an SP reimbursement isn't going to cut it. That took a ****ton of willpower, and should be rewarded SOMEHOW.
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Eli Porter
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:24:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Leisen I'm fine with Learning skills being removed..but I would require some serious compensation. I mean I had to sit around for 2-3 months, so an SP reimbursement isn't going to cut it. That took a ****ton of willpower, and should be rewarded SOMEHOW.
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Dengen Krastinov
Amarr Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:26:00 -
[250]
... but I like my brown colored skillbook list under learning
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:40:00 -
[251]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 20:40:54
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Ranger 1 If you were "forced" to train the skills, you were also "forced" to accept the +10 attribute points that came with them.
Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason. Everyone would then be training at the same rate, no temptation to "waste" that time and "not play". A level playing field.
... Or is the idea of everyone automatically getting a huge boost to their attributes really the whole point after all? If it is not, then you should have no objection.
Yep. The intention (and CCP's intention) was to grant everyone the +10 attributes and restitute the SP to people who already spent time on it so they can put it to better use.
When it's all done new players will never know that they ever existed. I won't miss them and I can't imagine a single new player would wish they still were in the game.
And well "no apparent reason", the learning skills are there for "no apparent reason" imo. Except a 6 week tedium.
(And sorry if I was too generalistic in my previous post)
Interestingly, if you actually watch the video in question, they were pretty clear that that option (indeed all of the options they discussed) would not work.
And the "apparent reason" was to make you make some choices about how quickly (in both the long term and the short term) your character progresses. Decisions that are influenced heavily by what exactly you are training that character to do.
That is quite a bit different from "boost everyone for no apparent reason".
Give up on insisting everybody gets a "free" skill point boost and maybe there would be room to work something out. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:44:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
It doesn't matter whether the normal rate is 5/5 or 3/2 or -74/pi.....
...I don't care what particular numbers they set it at, the point is that the learning skills are a crappy idea no matter what the formula behind them is. "Skill that you train so that you don't suck at training everything else" is a stupid skill no matter the actual numerical values.
So are you cool with them removing the skills and not buffing attributes for free? That is what I have been saying this whole time. Everyone wants their free +10 attribute points, but if you don't care about the rate then I think we are in agreement. Give everyone their learning SP back, remove the skills, and that's it. No more learning skills that people will be "forced" to train.
I don't think you ACTUALLY want this, I think you're just saying it so that someone will say "No, I don't want my training rate to be cut down to 30% speed!" and then you can say "AH HA! U FEL FOR MY TARP SEE U DO LIKE TEH LERNING!" which is dumb. Obviously, it would suck to have everyone's training times slowed down to a third of their current speeds across the board. It's completely unnecessary (seriously, we need to make the average time to master all skills NINETY YEARS in order to prove that we're "patient"?). That still doesn't mean the learning skills are a good idea. Obviously it would be a much better idea to just leave everyone's training speed at the normal rate and get rid of the learning skills, but if the choice is only "keep the learning skills" or "make everything in the whole game now train 66% slower" then it would be a tough decision, since both are terrible ideas that will drive away new players like the plague. I don't see why you would even need to present it as if those are the only two options... it's not about ME wanting "free stuff", I ALREADY HAVE all the learning skills, just like everyone else in this thread (and almost everyone else in the game). It's about getting rid of that first month of stupidity that new players have to endure, and making the beginning of the game a little bit more fun.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:45:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Interestingly, if you actually watch the video in question, they were pretty clear that that option (indeed all of the options they discussed) would not work.
And the "apparent reason" was to make you make some choices about how quickly (in both the long term and the short term) your character progresses. Decisions that are influenced heavily by what exactly you are training that character to do.
That is quite a bit different from "boost everyone for no apparent reason".
Give up on insisting everybody gets a "free" skill point boost and maybe there would be room to work something out.
Well I guess we simply disagree. I think 30 years of skilltraining is already ridiculous and everything to improve upon that is not "giving away things free" but a neccessity to keep this game at least a bit attractive.
If everyone gets 2 montsh of free SP .. so what? Is it the end of the world? Still 29 years and 10 months to go, I wouldn't worry!
- Perhaps we watched a different video then?
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Chuck Sands
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:47:00 -
[254]
The OP has a great idea.
So there is obviously no way that it will be implemented.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 20:56:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Mathias Black on 01/07/2010 20:57:47
Originally by: Ben Derindar
On the question of whether or not people should train learning skills at all, of course I agree. But there is still choice in the matter, concerning exactly *when* people should train them. I chose not to sacrifice my fun factor too much and mixed my learnings up with other things as I went along.
That choice still applies to every player, and I don't regret the choice I made.
/Ben
Right, so the only "choice" you have is "sacrifice your fun" earlier rather than later. Let's re-read that.... "sacrifice your fun", something you have to do, in a GAME, that you are paying a monthly fee for. You want to keep a mechanic whose sole purpose is to force players to choose a month to sacrifice their fun. A month that they pay $15 for, by the way. And set it up so that the only smart thing to do is sacrifice your fun for your first month, and make it so that the longer they wait to sacrifice their fun, the more they are punished. In a game. That they are paying a monthly fee for. I don't need to pay someone $15 a month to be forced to sacrifice my fun and prove that I can endure tedium. That's what my job is for, and they pay me. Can you honestly say you would have enjoyed Eve less if you didn't have to sacrifice your fun at all, and could just have fun the whole time? If they deleted all your learning skills (just you) right now and you had to train them again, would you jump for joy at this great chance to prove to the world how patient you are, and go through the amazing tactical thought process of deciding whether or not you would retrain them? Even better, we could just keep deleting everyone's learning skills every few months, allowing us to experience the awesome freedom of choice of whether to retrain them again!
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:03:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Ranger 1 Interestingly, if you actually watch the video in question, they were pretty clear that that option (indeed all of the options they discussed) would not work.
And the "apparent reason" was to make you make some choices about how quickly (in both the long term and the short term) your character progresses. Decisions that are influenced heavily by what exactly you are training that character to do.
That is quite a bit different from "boost everyone for no apparent reason".
Give up on insisting everybody gets a "free" skill point boost and maybe there would be room to work something out.
Well I guess we simply disagree. I think 30 years of skilltraining is already ridiculous and everything to improve upon that is not "giving away things free" but a neccessity to keep this game at least a bit attractive.
If everyone gets 2 montsh of free SP .. so what? Is it the end of the world? Still 29 years and 10 months to go, I wouldn't worry!
- Perhaps we watched a different video then?
The whole point of the current skill system is that you have to make choices, as it is impossible to max out everything. It's a pretty core principal that if you think about it I'm sure you will understand. EVE is, and will always be, about making choices and living with the consequences.
As far as the 2 months of free SP goes, you should probably put some thought into how that could (and would) be abused.
To clarify, when I said "skill point boost" I should have said "free attribute boost" to reduce skill training times. That was rather unclear of me.
Back to the point, so far any discussion of options that don't involve everyone getting a free boost to their attributes beyond what they choose initially has been met with stoney silence.
When you get right down to it, the learning skill removal is not the cruicial part everyone wants. Everbody simply wants the attribute boost, given freely without having to put any time or effort into it.
And sure, everyone wants a free boost... but eventually those free boosts would end up rendering the skill system pointless.
Come up with a differnt mechanic for earning an attribute boost, or for reducing skill training times, and then you might have something that can be worked with.
And no, I'm pretty sure we watched the same movie. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:13:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Janjan Jansen
Originally by: Obyrith Having read most of this thread, my view of this has gone from "Learning skills were a bad idea and should probably be gotten rid of" to "OMG FFS CCP WHY DID YOU NOT FIX THIS LIKE YESTERDAY GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS NAO ARRRGGHH?!?!?!?!?!"
Thing is, people forget how utterly stupid the waiting period is. It can feel sort of tactical at the time, like you're making a wise investment. But really I'd just have more fun stuff to do now (and have been doing it for longer) if learning skills had simply never been implemented in the first place.
So you think it's a good plan to have 2 month time sink on all characters, it seems like a bad business model to me. But it's harder to solve this legacy thing then you might think eve is a complicated game.
Reading comprehension, thine name is Janjan Jansen.
TL;DR Learning skills are stupid, but I didn't realise how stupid until I read this thread and people's attempts to defend the current system. No, timesinks are not good.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:18:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Ranger 1 The whole point of the current skill system is that you have to make choices, as it is impossible to max out everything. It's a pretty core principal that if you think about it I'm sure you will understand. EVE is, and will always be, about making choices and living with the consequences.
As far as the 2 months of free SP goes, you should probably put some thought into how that could (and would) be abused.
To clarify, when I said "skill point boost" I should have said "free attribute boost" to reduce skill training times. That was rather unclear of me.
Back to the point, so far any discussion of options that don't involve everyone getting a free boost to their attributes beyond what they choose initially has been met with stoney silence.
When you get right down to it, the learning skill removal is not the cruicial part everyone wants. Everbody simply wants the attribute boost, given freely without having to put any time or effort into it. And sure, everyone wants a free boost... but eventually those free boosts would end up rendering the skill system pointless.
Come up with a differnt mechanic for earning an attribute boost, or for reducing skill training times, and then you might have something that can be worked with.
And no, I'm pretty sure we watched the same movie.
I find it very strange that just removing the learning skills just upsets you so much. No-one ever mentioned anything else and the only choice you take away is - as said before - when to train them. Yes unless it's a cyno alt or whatever.
You just step over the whole thing of the remaining 29 years and 10 months that still forces you to choose between a lot of things and think about them. Most peopel won't play this game for 5 years so they will have to make choices. And there's still remaps. EVEmon will still be very useful. We'll still have implants. You still you have to make choices, as it is still impossible to max out everything. You can still screw up your remaps so badly that you better delete your character and start over again.
In the end the removal of learning skills and granting the +10 attributes really won't change the game that much. It will just remove the discouraging tedious first few months of new players ad give those who trained it a little present, nothing more, nothing less.
You're making it seem like giving 1 beggar a dime will cause the whole poor world population to stand in front of your house for the rest of your life. Really, it's not that big of an issue. You're really blowing things up out of proportions.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:19:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 21:19:40
Originally by: Obyrith
Originally by: Janjan Jansen
Originally by: Obyrith Having read most of this thread, my view of this has gone from "Learning skills were a bad idea and should probably be gotten rid of" to "OMG FFS CCP WHY DID YOU NOT FIX THIS LIKE YESTERDAY GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS NAO ARRRGGHH?!?!?!?!?!"
Thing is, people forget how utterly stupid the waiting period is. It can feel sort of tactical at the time, like you're making a wise investment. But really I'd just have more fun stuff to do now (and have been doing it for longer) if learning skills had simply never been implemented in the first place.
So you think it's a good plan to have 2 month time sink on all characters, it seems like a bad business model to me. But it's harder to solve this legacy thing then you might think eve is a complicated game.
Reading comprehension, thine name is Janjan Jansen.
TL;DR Learning skills are stupid, but I didn't realise how stupid until I read this thread and people's attempts to defend the current system. No, timesinks are not good.
The whole skill system is a time sink, otherwise you would be given every skill at max from day one.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
omgevenmoarfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:20:00 -
[260]
I believe Learning skills should be removed, all attributes should be set to 5, and no SP would be reimbursed. This is meant to be a cold cruel harsh universe.
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Optical Illusion
Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:23:00 -
[261]
No. No..
No.
This game is about choices. The fact some people researched and made decissions that would ultimatly speed up there learning from the start, and others didn't, isn't a good reason to remove them.
This is a complex game, and most probably the most expensive one you will ever play. Quit trying to simplify it and turn it into another world of warcraft.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:24:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 21:27:48
Originally by: Ranger 1 The whole skill system is a time sink, otherwise you would be given every skill at max from day one.
So?
If my boss gives me a slight rise, he might as well give me the whole company's capital?
Originally by: Optical Illusion No. No..
This is a complex game, and most probably the most expensive one you will ever play. Quit trying to simplify it and turn it into another world of warcraft.
You're alts/twins?
If you take away 1 choice, you also take away the other 200,000 choices?
I fail to see the logic in this. But perhaps it's just me.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:27:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Ranger 1 The whole point of the current skill system is that you have to make choices, as it is impossible to max out everything. It's a pretty core principal that if you think about it I'm sure you will understand. EVE is, and will always be, about making choices and living with the consequences.
As far as the 2 months of free SP goes, you should probably put some thought into how that could (and would) be abused.
To clarify, when I said "skill point boost" I should have said "free attribute boost" to reduce skill training times. That was rather unclear of me.
Back to the point, so far any discussion of options that don't involve everyone getting a free boost to their attributes beyond what they choose initially has been met with stoney silence.
When you get right down to it, the learning skill removal is not the cruicial part everyone wants. Everbody simply wants the attribute boost, given freely without having to put any time or effort into it. And sure, everyone wants a free boost... but eventually those free boosts would end up rendering the skill system pointless.
Come up with a differnt mechanic for earning an attribute boost, or for reducing skill training times, and then you might have something that can be worked with.
And no, I'm pretty sure we watched the same movie.
I find it very strange that just removing the learning skills just upsets you so much. No-one ever mentioned anything else and the only choice you take away is - as said before - when to train them. Yes unless it's a cyno alt or whatever.
You just step over the whole thing of the remaining 29 years and 10 months that still forces you to choose between a lot of things and think about them. Most peopel won't play this game for 5 years so they will have to make choices. And there's still remaps. EVEmon will still be very useful. We'll still have implants. You still you have to make choices, as it is still impossible to max out everything. You can still screw up your remaps so badly that you better delete your character and start over again.
In the end the removal of learning skills and granting the +10 attributes really won't change the game that much. It will just remove the discouraging tedious first few months of new players ad give those who trained it a little present, nothing more, nothing less.
You're making it seem like giving 1 beggar a dime will cause the whole poor world population to stand in front of your house for the rest of your life. Really, it's not that big of an issue. You're really blowing things up out of proportions.
I'm hardly upset by this discussion. We both know your option will never happen.
I do find it interesting that you use the beggar analogy though. It's very appropriate in an arguement asking for a +10 attribute bump out of the blue.
As I said, come up with a viable mechanic to earn that bump in attributes and I'm all ears. At that point learning skills could go bye bye with no problem. However I do not, and CCP does not, consider "GIMME +10 ON ALL MY ATTRIBUTES NAU!!!" a viable mechanic.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:30:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Ranger 1 I'm hardly upset by this discussion. We both know your option will never happen.
I do find it interesting that you use the beggar analogy though. It's very appropriate in an arguement asking for a +10 attribute bump out of the blue.
As I said, come up with a viable mechanic to earn that bump in attributes and I'm all ears. At that point learning skills could go bye bye with no problem. However I do not, and CCP does not, consider "GIMME +10 ON ALL MY ATTRIBUTES NAU!!!" a viable mechanic.
Sometimes I'm not sure if you're just trolling or actually mean what you write.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:35:00 -
[265]
Fine; remove the learning skills, give no attribute boosts to any pilots, give the trained SP's back to the pilots that trained them, and create/reinstitute +6 to +10 learning implants.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:36:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Right, so the only "choice" you have is "sacrifice your fun" earlier rather than later. Let's re-read that.... "sacrifice your fun", something you have to do, in a GAME, that you are paying a monthly fee for. You want to keep a mechanic whose sole purpose is to force players to choose a month to sacrifice their fun. A month that they pay $15 for, by the way. And set it up so that the only smart thing to do is sacrifice your fun for your first month, and make it so that the longer they wait to sacrifice their fun, the more they are punished. In a game. That they are paying a monthly fee for. I don't need to pay someone $15 a month to be forced to sacrifice my fun and prove that I can endure tedium. That's what my job is for, and they pay me. Can you honestly say you would have enjoyed Eve less if you didn't have to sacrifice your fun at all, and could just have fun the whole time? If they deleted all your learning skills (just you) right now and you had to train them again, would you jump for joy at this great chance to prove to the world how patient you are, and go through the amazing tactical thought process of deciding whether or not you would retrain them? Even better, we could just keep deleting everyone's learning skills every few months, allowing us to experience the awesome freedom of choice of whether to retrain them again!
Just gonna quote this again for its awesomeness.
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:37:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Ranger 1
As I said, come up with a viable mechanic to earn that bump in attributes and I'm all ears. At that point learning skills could go bye bye with no problem. However I do not, and CCP does not, consider "GIMME +10 ON ALL MY ATTRIBUTES NAU!!!" a viable mechanic.
This IS a viable mechanic. You spent all that time training +10 to all your attributes? You get all that training time back(Which is a LOT). You didn't? You just get +10 to attributes. Everybody wins. From long standing veterans to fresh characters.
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Optical Illusion
Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:44:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon Fine; remove the learning skills, give no attribute boosts to any pilots, give the trained SP's back to the pilots that trained them, and create/reinstitute +6 to +10 learning implants.
Slade
In a way, this theory is flawed.
Training learning skills takes time.
Remove learning skills, Implement +6 - +10 implants. Given the price of +5's is aprox 500 mil (last time i bought a full set, not stating this is the price) +10's would be aprox 15bil a set (based on 100% inflation of price per 1 point gained).
Earning isk ingame = time
Earning 15 bil in isk, based on mission running 4 hours a day = 150 days.
Oops, i got podded, now i have to replace my implants again so i can train at the same speed.
Thats not even taking into account the current issue regarding PvP pilots not using +5's in there main clones head due to cost Vrs. Chance of podding efficiency, and now you are saying we should have learners removed, and implants introduced to make up for it, when a large proportion already dont use the best attribute enhancing implants currently available? Yes, this makes total sence.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:58:00 -
[269]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/07/2010 22:06:06
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: Ranger 1
As I said, come up with a viable mechanic to earn that bump in attributes and I'm all ears. At that point learning skills could go bye bye with no problem. However I do not, and CCP does not, consider "GIMME +10 ON ALL MY ATTRIBUTES NAU!!!" a viable mechanic.
This IS a viable mechanic. You spent all that time training +10 to all your attributes? You get all that training time back(Which is a LOT). You didn't? You just get +10 to attributes. Everybody wins. From long standing veterans to fresh characters.
There is so much wrong with this, I hardly know where to begin.
Rather than have people spend time re-explaining what has already been covered in detail lets just put this in stark terms.
If a group of players gets together and decides that mining sucks and they would like that training time reimbursed to spend as they see fit... as well as give every player in the game level 5 in all related mining skills so that it is no longer an issue... does that sound like a good idea to you?
If a group of players decides that spending time nickle and dimeing up their agent standings takes a stupid amount of time and they would like to be reimbursed with free game time for that time spent... as well as have every player in the game be given max standings with all agents so that this "time sink" will never be an issue again... does that sound like a good idea to you?
In essence, this is exactly what you are proposing. Breaking a game mechanic (that is there for a reason), and instead of replacing it with a better mechanic you instead boost everyone to max and remove completely that aspect of gameplay.
Being given every advantage available in an aspect of the game for free is counter to the core principals of the game (or most any game for that matter). If you don't earn that advantage somehow, it is worthless... and disturbs overall game balance.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:06:00 -
[270]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 22:07:04
Originally by: Ranger 1 Being given every advantage available in an aspect of the game for free is counter to the core principals of the game (or most any game for that matter). If you don't earn that advantage somehow, it is worthless... and disturbs overall game balance.
Removing just the 1 mechanic that greatly annoys a lot of people and makes people not wanting to play the game out of the 10,000 mechanics in a game ... does that sound like a good idea to you?
No?
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:08:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 22:07:04
Originally by: Ranger 1 Being given every advantage available in an aspect of the game for free is counter to the core principals of the game (or most any game for that matter). If you don't earn that advantage somehow, it is worthless... and disturbs overall game balance.
Removing just the 1 mechanic that greatly annoys a lot of people and makes people not wanting to play the game out of the 10,000 mechanics in a game ... does that sound like a good idea to you?
No?
It's not a bad idea at all... IF you provide a better mechanic in it's place.
Still waiting to see it.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:14:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Ranger 1 It's not a bad idea at all... IF you provide a better mechanic in it's place.
Still waiting to see it.
What's wrong with just removing a mechanic altogether if it leads to far more more annoyance than satisfacion and even the developers aren't happy with it either?
Or is the quantity of mechanics directly related to the quality of a game?
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:18:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 22:07:04
Originally by: Ranger 1 Being given every advantage available in an aspect of the game for free is counter to the core principals of the game (or most any game for that matter). If you don't earn that advantage somehow, it is worthless... and disturbs overall game balance.
Removing just the 1 mechanic that greatly annoys a lot of people and makes people not wanting to play the game out of the 10,000 mechanics in a game ... does that sound like a good idea to you?
No?
It's not a bad idea at all... IF you provide a better mechanic in it's place.
Still waiting to see it.
Here's a mechanic: Everyone except you gets the free +10. You get set back to -20. Then you have the really awesome freedom to train learning skills up to 30/30. It will be so much fun, and you can tell everyone that you were WAY more patient and hard-working then they are. You will also get a t-shirt that says "I trained learning for 27 years in Eve and all I got was this stupid t-shirt!" which you can wear proudly and impress all these lazy people who think that games are supposed to be fun and prove how much better you are than all of us. You will also get an automated email every day from CCP saying that they're so proud of you for training the learning skills the hard way when everyone else just took them for free, and that the whole world should really look up to you as the prime example of what a human being should be like. Sound good?
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Daenosa
RedDiesel
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:26:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Here's a mechanic: Everyone except you gets the free +10. You get set back to -20. Then you have the really awesome freedom to train learning skills up to 30/30. It will be so much fun, and you can tell everyone that you were WAY more patient and hard-working then they are. You will also get a t-shirt that says "I trained learning for 27 years in Eve and all I got was this stupid t-shirt!" which you can wear proudly and impress all these lazy people who think that games are supposed to be fun and prove how much better you are than all of us. You will also get an automated email every day from CCP saying that they're so proud of you for training the learning skills the hard way when everyone else just took them for free, and that the whole world should really look up to you as the prime example of what a human being should be like. Sound good?
depends, the t-shirt come in all sizes?
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:27:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Mathias Black It's about getting rid of that first month of stupidity that new players have to endure, and making the beginning of the game a little bit more fun.
It's obviously not. New players would have no idea how fast skills were training previously so cutting the speed to whatever would **** off current players much more than new players. Just say it and accept it as true: "I want to have my cake and eat it too."
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:27:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Daenosa
Originally by: Mathias Black
Here's a mechanic: Everyone except you gets the free +10. You get set back to -20. Then you have the really awesome freedom to train learning skills up to 30/30. It will be so much fun, and you can tell everyone that you were WAY more patient and hard-working then they are. You will also get a t-shirt that says "I trained learning for 27 years in Eve and all I got was this stupid t-shirt!" which you can wear proudly and impress all these lazy people who think that games are supposed to be fun and prove how much better you are than all of us. You will also get an automated email every day from CCP saying that they're so proud of you for training the learning skills the hard way when everyone else just took them for free, and that the whole world should really look up to you as the prime example of what a human being should be like. Sound good?
depends, the t-shirt come in all sizes?
No, it only comes in extra-extra-extra-extra-extra large. You need to pre-wash it over and over for about a month until it shrinks enough to fit you.
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Octoven
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:49:00 -
[277]
I will make just a few comments, everyone who keeps saying learning skills are by choice only is full of horse ****, it is a requirement NOT a choice. The same with any other skill. Take mining for example Mining I will let you mine but Mining 5 will let you mine more efficient. If you want to be good at mining then you MUST have it to 5 NO EXCEPTIONS it is a required skill NOT a choice one. The difference between Mining and Learning is that mining only affects mining and thus isnÆt as important or needed to everyone as learning skills. Learning skills cover ALL skills and are needed by ALL players. It doesnÆt matter if you want to mine, pvp, haul, fight, PI, WH, afk, **** in the toilet while talking to corp on your laptopà.ok well thatÆs a little weird but it doesnÆt matter. In the end you NEED learning skills to be more efficient.
In a way this pitfall makes learning skills MORE needed then say a singular one such as mining. It is true CCP isnÆt going to break your arm if you donÆt train them or freeze your accountà.but if you want to PLAY the game and not WORK at it you need them trained to high levels. By denying the importance of the necessity of them is to deny the same importance to all other skills. I donÆt NEED mining 5 but if I want to be a miner I doàit isnÆt debatable. The same with learning skills if I want to have a good character I NEED learning skillsà.that isnÆt debatable either because having them makes getting Mining 5 easier and faster. To do otherwise is to cancel my account sub. Do NOT diminish the NEED for learning skills by saying they are a choice because to do so would be to say the same about ALL other skills as it affects them.
CCP has been planning to remove them why else add a SP allocation system. A program they were developing before server move last week. When servers came back up after 30 hours they had apologized, created a new system for deployment in a few days, AND offered skills backàthey wouldnÆt have bothered to do so if this system was going to be added anyway regardless of server actions. They were planning to add the SP allocation system anyway and this is why, to strip learning skills out of the game and give back the SP everyone had invested into it. Change is coming, and its good the majority want this change and you few little humps on the back arenÆt going to stop it so just accept it and go take your anger out on blowing up ships because you canÆt do anything about this.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:50:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black It's about getting rid of that first month of stupidity that new players have to endure, and making the beginning of the game a little bit more fun.
It's obviously not. New players would have no idea how fast skills were training previously so cutting the speed to whatever would **** off current players much more than new players. Just say it and accept it as true: "I want to have my cake and eat it too."
Yeah, you caught me. I and all the other people in this thread who ALREADY TRAINED THE SKILLS YEARS AGO are really just trying to get free learning skills. That we already have. What the hell are you even talking about?
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:59:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Yeah, you caught me. I and all the other people in this thread who ALREADY TRAINED THE SKILLS YEARS AGO are really just trying to get free learning skills.
No you are trying to get free attributes. You told me the rate of training didn't matter but that only seems to be the case if it's going up or staying the same.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:09:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
Yeah, you caught me. I and all the other people in this thread who ALREADY TRAINED THE SKILLS YEARS AGO are really just trying to get free learning skills.
No you are trying to get free attributes. You told me the rate of training didn't matter but that only seems to be the case if it's going up or staying the same.
I ALREADY HAVE THE ATTRIBUTES. I don't know how many times we need to repeat that here. EVERYONE in eve has trained the learning skills to at least 4/3, most have 5/4 or 5/5. EVERYONE. EVERY SINGLE ONE. YOU ARE NOT A UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE. We all already have the attributes. All of us. It's not a choice. You have to take the learning skills unless you want a severely gimped character. I would not be gaining anything by the removal of learning skills.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:10:00 -
[281]
You say the following.
Originally by: Optical Illusion No. No..
No.
This game is about choices. The fact some people researched and made decissions that would ultimatly speed up there learning from the start, and others didn't, isn't a good reason to remove them.
This is a complex game, and most probably the most expensive one you will ever play. Quit trying to simplify it and turn it into another world of warcraft.
Then you say this.
Originally by: Optical Illusion
Originally by: Slade Trillgon Fine; remove the learning skills, give no attribute boosts to any pilots, give the trained SP's back to the pilots that trained them, and create/reinstitute +6 to +10 learning implants.
Slade
In a way, this theory is flawed.
Training learning skills takes time.
Remove learning skills, Implement +6 - +10 implants. Given the price of +5's is aprox 500 mil (last time i bought a full set, not stating this is the price) +10's would be aprox 15bil a set (based on 100% inflation of price per 1 point gained).
Earning isk ingame = time
Earning 15 bil in isk, based on mission running 4 hours a day = 150 days.
Oops, i got podded, now i have to replace my implants again so i can train at the same speed.
Thats not even taking into account the current issue regarding PvP pilots not using +5's in there main clones head due to cost Vrs. Chance of podding efficiency, and now you are saying we should have learners removed, and implants introduced to make up for it, when a large proportion already dont use the best attribute enhancing implants currently available? Yes, this makes total sence.
So which is it? Do you want pilots to suffer the consequences of their choices or do you want things given to you so you do not have a chance to suffer the consequences of those choices?
The way I see it is if you want a drak EVE universe you will have really slow training times and if you want to have faster training times then you can pay for the implants and suffer the consequences if you get podded. But no, some of you all want to keep their prescious skill training 'advantage' because you think it is truly some significant and tactical advantage that adds depth to the game, and you no wanna give it up
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:11:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/07/2010 20:05:49
Originally by: Ranger 1 Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason.
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4.
-Liang
You're real big on these absolutes like "must" and yet you do very little to actually prove that this absolutely without question "must" happen.
The real question is why you should be allowed to retain a 15 year training time advantage over new players. That's why the removal of learning skills must come with a subsequent attribute boost.
-Liang
Ed: And in case you don't get it: players who took advantage of learning skills would have a massively disproportionate gain for having done so with the much longer training times. The flip side is that with everyone normalized to faster training times, this discrepancy doesn't exist at all. Pilots who didn't take advantage of learning skills are still penalized while pilots who did don't see any real change.
As one of those pilots who would be "penalized".
I don't care. The people who had the patience to do them to 5/5 early deserve every point of SP they got.
Orca Pilot Sale |
Lauren Pheonix
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:17:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Optical Illusion
Originally by: Slade Trillgon Fine; remove the learning skills, give no attribute boosts to any pilots, give the trained SP's back to the pilots that trained them, and create/reinstitute +6 to +10 learning implants.
Slade
In a way, this theory is flawed.
Training learning skills takes time.
Remove learning skills, Implement +6 - +10 implants. Given the price of +5's is aprox 500 mil (last time i bought a full set, not stating this is the price) +10's would be aprox 15bil a set (based on 100% inflation of price per 1 point gained).
Earning isk ingame = time
Earning 15 bil in isk, based on mission running 4 hours a day = 150 days.
Oops, i got podded, now i have to replace my implants again so i can train at the same speed.
Thats not even taking into account the current issue regarding PvP pilots not using +5's in there main clones head due to cost Vrs. Chance of podding efficiency, and now you are saying we should have learners removed, and implants introduced to make up for it, when a large proportion already dont use the best attribute enhancing implants currently available? Yes, this makes total sence.
Ok stayin out of the main discussion, im not much for commenting on 10 pages of deep....deep speculation. but jus 2 things
1 - Welcome to EVE where you fly through planets and market prices can actually adjust in reaction to game mechanics
2 - IF this Elite/Super elite/Megaduperwtfpwnzor Elite implant thingy by some far off chance occurs, i can only pray implants are made to show on show on pod killmails " QQ he popped my +15 Slaves "
PS i read someone yammering about " get rid of implants all together" this would make me a sad panda cuz noone would beg for ransom any moar
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:18:00 -
[284]
Edited by: SammyullJackson on 01/07/2010 23:19:05
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
Yeah, you caught me. I and all the other people in this thread who ALREADY TRAINED THE SKILLS YEARS AGO are really just trying to get free learning skills.
No you are trying to get free attributes. You told me the rate of training didn't matter but that only seems to be the case if it's going up or staying the same.
I ALREADY HAVE THE ATTRIBUTES. I don't know how many times we need to repeat that here. EVERYONE in eve has trained the learning skills to at least 4/3, most have 5/4 or 5/5. EVERYONE. EVERY SINGLE ONE. YOU ARE NOT A UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE. We all already have the attributes. All of us. It's not a choice. You have to take the learning skills unless you want a severely gimped character. I would not be gaining anything by the removal of learning skills.
Everything is a choice. I don't have to go to college, but I choose to. If teachers were to be believed, EVERYONE should go to college. Everyone tells you "in order to get the best job, you should go to college and get a degree!" Unless your family doesn't give a flying **** or you simply don't have the intelligence needed, EVERYONE has a family which thinks that going to college is the only way to accomplish anything.
And yet, some people don't, and get right to work. Sure, they might not have the qualifications, might not advance as quickly, but they do get a head-start on life because they decided college was extraneous to what they wanted to do. Maybe the college grads have more career opportunities, but that doesn't make the people who didn't go any less of a person or any less capable at whatever they chose to do.
It's the same. ****ing. Difference.
If you skip learning skills, you can use the 1.6 mil SP bonus to help reach whatever niche you want, and you will reach it before the learning skills people, because of your decision to go right for it. Sure, you won't be able to fly every races' battlecruiser and be able to actively and passively tank both shield and armor after only a year of training, but you are able to do whatever you WANT to do that much faster.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:20:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Mathias Black
I ALREADY HAVE THE ATTRIBUTES. I don't know how many times we need to repeat that here. EVERYONE in eve has trained the learning skills to at least 4/3, most have 5/4 or 5/5. EVERYONE. EVERY SINGLE ONE. YOU ARE NOT A UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE. We all already have the attributes. All of us. It's not a choice. You have to take the learning skills unless you want a severely gimped character. I would not be gaining anything by the removal of learning skills.
You are dense. I am not talking about you or me. I am talking about the character I create after this happens that now has a bunch of FREE ATTRIBUTE POINTS. I am talking about the alts I have created that get a bunch of FREE ATTRIBUTE POINTS because I didn't train learnings on them but now they potentially can become much more useful with much less effort. Just because you have trained them all on that character doesn't mean everyone has on all of theirs, no matter how many times you say it.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:21:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/07/2010 20:05:49
Originally by: Ranger 1 Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason.
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4.
-Liang
You're real big on these absolutes like "must" and yet you do very little to actually prove that this absolutely without question "must" happen.
The real question is why you should be allowed to retain a 15 year training time advantage over new players. That's why the removal of learning skills must come with a subsequent attribute boost.
-Liang
Ed: And in case you don't get it: players who took advantage of learning skills would have a massively disproportionate gain for having done so with the much longer training times. The flip side is that with everyone normalized to faster training times, this discrepancy doesn't exist at all. Pilots who didn't take advantage of learning skills are still penalized while pilots who did don't see any real change.
As one of those pilots who would be "penalized".
I don't care. The people who had the patience to do them to 5/5 early deserve every point of SP they got.
Alt of someone who just trained everything to 5/5, huh?
You... sorry... "those people" will still have a five year lead on noobs, millions more in skill points, and billions more in isk. That's plenty of advantage as it is. You.. sorry.. "they" really shouldn't start wishing that noobs will be placed 15 years behind you instead of 5. All that means is there will be less new people playing the game, and you won't have anyone to shoot at.
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:22:00 -
[287]
I have 5/4 learning and am in favour of removing the learning skills altogether. Freed up SP to be attributed elsewhere through new SP allocation tool. Everyone to have the same base attributes - learning implants to stay the same.
win win
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:24:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/07/2010 20:05:49
Originally by: Ranger 1 Removing both the skills and the boost would be eminently fair, unless you can tell me why you deserve a free +10 boost for no apparent reason.
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The removal of learning skills must come with an increase in attributes to 5/3 or 5/4.
-Liang
You're real big on these absolutes like "must" and yet you do very little to actually prove that this absolutely without question "must" happen.
The real question is why you should be allowed to retain a 15 year training time advantage over new players. That's why the removal of learning skills must come with a subsequent attribute boost.
-Liang
Ed: And in case you don't get it: players who took advantage of learning skills would have a massively disproportionate gain for having done so with the much longer training times. The flip side is that with everyone normalized to faster training times, this discrepancy doesn't exist at all. Pilots who didn't take advantage of learning skills are still penalized while pilots who did don't see any real change.
As one of those pilots who would be "penalized".
I don't care. The people who had the patience to do them to 5/5 early deserve every point of SP they got.
Alt of someone who just trained everything to 5/5, huh?
You... sorry... "those people" will still have a five year lead on noobs, millions more in skill points, and billions more in isk. That's plenty of advantage as it is. You.. sorry.. "they" really shouldn't start wishing that noobs will be placed 15 years behind you instead of 5. All that means is there will be less new people playing the game, and you won't have anyone to shoot at.
I'm an alt? Are you f'ing kidding me? Seriously?
Orca Pilot Sale |
Brannor McThife
Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:30:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Riedle I have 5/4 learning and am in favour of removing the learning skills altogether. Freed up SP to be attributed elsewhere through new SP allocation tool. Everyone to have the same base attributes - learning implants to stay the same.
win win
Not quite complete... it's the future learning that is of concern for me. Fine, give me a "rough guess" SP pool and pull the learning skills...but give me 50 attribute points to allocate to whichever attributes I want so that I can continue to train future skills at the same (well, slightly better, since I'm a 5/4) rate.
-G
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:31:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
I ALREADY HAVE THE ATTRIBUTES. I don't know how many times we need to repeat that here. EVERYONE in eve has trained the learning skills to at least 4/3, most have 5/4 or 5/5. EVERYONE. EVERY SINGLE ONE. YOU ARE NOT A UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE. We all already have the attributes. All of us. It's not a choice. You have to take the learning skills unless you want a severely gimped character. I would not be gaining anything by the removal of learning skills.
You are dense. I am not talking about you or me. I am talking about the character I create after this happens that now has a bunch of FREE ATTRIBUTE POINTS. I am talking about the alts I have created that get a bunch of FREE ATTRIBUTE POINTS because I didn't train learnings on them but now they potentially can become much more useful with much less effort. Just because you have trained them all on that character doesn't mean everyone has on all of theirs, no matter how many times you say it.
Honestly, who the f cares if your cyno alt gets an attribute boost? I don't. You're seriously going to whine about that? If you had planned on switching to your cyno alt and doing any sort of training for more than a few months you would have trained learning on him anyway. I honestly couldn't care less that cyno alt or market hub alt trains will be slightly faster. And it will be equal anyway, you don't have to worry about someone else's alt being better than your alt; every alt would start training at the same speed.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:41:00 -
[291]
Quote:
It's the same. ****ing. Difference.
LOL. Yeah, clicking "Learning" and sitting there for a month waiting before you train gunnery is EXACTLY like going to college. Going to college and graduating is something to ACTUALLY be proud of, it's something that takes ACTUAL work, that gives you actual new knowledge and skills. It's an important choice that affects who you are, where you go, your entire life. Clicking "train" on learning in a video game and sitting there watching the progress bar is not an important choice. It's something you have to do if you don't want your character to suck, in a video game, that you're paying a monthly fee for. You're not actually learning anything. You're not actually differentiating your character or yourself because everybody else is doing the same exact thing. It doesn't take any skill, it's not difficult, it's not any sort of sign of strong moral character (my god some people's lives must be pathetic if they're really this proud of the fact that they trained learning), it's just a stupid progress bar that you watched go up in a video game. You could do it by clicking a few things and then literally sitting on your ass for a month.
Quote:
If you skip learning skills, you can use the 1.6 mil SP bonus to help reach whatever niche you want, and you will reach it before the learning skills people, because of your decision to go right for it. Sure, you won't be able to fly every races' battlecruiser and be able to actively and passively tank both shield and armor after only a year of training, but you are able to do whatever you WANT to do that much faster.
If you think it works that way then I can understand why you think it's a choice but it doesn't work that way. You can not reach ANYTHING faster by skipping learning entirely unless you only play for about 3 hours and quit. You do not get to "do whatever you WANT to do that much faster" - if that were true, no one would train learning. The entire POINT of learning is that it lets you do whatever you want to do that much faster. Why the hell else would anyone train it? Especially if you're talking about an entire year. If you spent a year training things without training learning, you would have only learned 35% or so of what you could have trained if you took learning to around 4/3 first.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:44:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Honestly, who the f cares if your cyno alt gets an attribute boost? I don't. You're seriously going to whine about that? If you had planned on switching to your cyno alt and doing any sort of training for more than a few months you would have trained learning on him anyway. I honestly couldn't care less that cyno alt or market hub alt trains will be slightly faster. And it will be equal anyway, you don't have to worry about someone else's alt being better than your alt; every alt would start training at the same speed.
Just because you lack imagination with alts doesn't mean everyone else does. And again with the same training speed crap, let it drop because you only care as long as your speed doesn't get nerfed.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:44:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Ranger 1
It's not a bad idea at all... IF you provide a better mechanic in it's place.
Still waiting to see it.
Still waiting for a solid reason why the removal of one mechanic instautomatically requires the addititon of a new mechanic to replace it?
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:47:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Quote:
It's the same. ****ing. Difference.
LOL. Yeah, clicking "Learning" and sitting there for a month waiting before you train gunnery is EXACTLY like going to college. Going to college and graduating is something to ACTUALLY be proud of, it's something that takes ACTUAL work, that gives you actual new knowledge and skills. It's an important choice that affects who you are, where you go, your entire life. Clicking "train" on learning in a video game and sitting there watching the progress bar is not an important choice. It's something you have to do if you don't want your character to suck, in a video game, that you're paying a monthly fee for. You're not actually learning anything. You're not actually differentiating your character or yourself because everybody else is doing the same exact thing. It doesn't take any skill, it's not difficult, it's not any sort of sign of strong moral character (my god some people's lives must be pathetic if they're really this proud of the fact that they trained learning), it's just a stupid progress bar that you watched go up in a video game. You could do it by clicking a few things and then literally sitting on your ass for a month.
Quote:
If you skip learning skills, you can use the 1.6 mil SP bonus to help reach whatever niche you want, and you will reach it before the learning skills people, because of your decision to go right for it. Sure, you won't be able to fly every races' battlecruiser and be able to actively and passively tank both shield and armor after only a year of training, but you are able to do whatever you WANT to do that much faster.
If you think it works that way then I can understand why you think it's a choice but it doesn't work that way. You can not reach ANYTHING faster by skipping learning entirely unless you only play for about 3 hours and quit. You do not get to "do whatever you WANT to do that much faster" - if that were true, no one would train learning. The entire POINT of learning is that it lets you do whatever you want to do that much faster. Why the hell else would anyone train it? Especially if you're talking about an entire year. If you spent a year training things without training learning, you would have only learned 35% or so of what you could have trained if you took learning to around 4/3 first.
I've looked in the earlier pages of this thread while waiting for you to respond, and noticed a common them from you: "LOL CLICK DA BUTTON AND WATCH IT GO"
Did you never leave the station while doing your learning skills? Put other skills in during it?
Several people even explained how they were doing exactly that, and you would merely say "YEAH BUT YOU STILL HAD TO WAIT LOL"
Tell me... did you make the mistake of thinking you HAD to simply sit around waiting for your learning skills to build up? While doing absolutely nothing else? Also, did you train up the Charisma stats, and think "man, I'm never going to be training into command ships or trading, so I probably won't need this TOO much..." or anything along those lines?
Or did you fall into the trap that everyone like you puts newbies in, telling them that their ONLY option is to min/max their stats and get ALL LEARNING SKILLS TO L5/5 ASAP OR ELSE YOU FAIL THE GAME FOREVER?
What was it you guys were using? "Bitter vet"? Who's the bitter one?
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:47:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
Honestly, who the f cares if your cyno alt gets an attribute boost? I don't. You're seriously going to whine about that? If you had planned on switching to your cyno alt and doing any sort of training for more than a few months you would have trained learning on him anyway. I honestly couldn't care less that cyno alt or market hub alt trains will be slightly faster. And it will be equal anyway, you don't have to worry about someone else's alt being better than your alt; every alt would start training at the same speed.
Just because you lack imagination with alts doesn't mean everyone else does. And again with the same training speed crap, let it drop because you only care as long as your speed doesn't get nerfed.
I really hope you're just trolling and you're not really this ridiculous. It's pretty clear that YOU are the one who's terrified of losing your perceived "advantage" over "people who haven't trained learning" (THEY DON'T EXIST) and that's why you're trying to create these ridiculous scenarios like "Well if they take away learning, then they should also cut everyone's training times by a third! And if you don't like that, then it means we need to keep learning!" You should change it up and say something like "IF CCP removes Learning, then they should make it so that your computer comes to life and punches you in the face every time you leave a station! If you don't agree, then you're just a coward!"
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:58:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Mathias Black
I really hope you're just trolling and you're not really this ridiculous. It's pretty clear that YOU are the one who's terrified of losing your perceived "advantage" over "people who haven't trained learning" (THEY DON'T EXIST) and that's why you're trying to create these ridiculous scenarios like "Well if they take away learning, then they should also cut everyone's training times by a third! And if you don't like that, then it means we need to keep learning!" You should change it up and say something like "IF CCP removes Learning, then they should make it so that your computer comes to life and punches you in the face every time you leave a station! If you don't agree, then you're just a coward!"
All I have been saying is that if you think the skills were a mistake from the beginning then take them out but don't leave their benefits for free just because you like them. T2 BPOs are often viewed as a mistake. Instead of just giving everyone free T2 BPOs to fix the problem they made a different system to accomplish the desired result. Why can't that be applied here instead of cut skills, give free attributes, profit?
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Helio Amor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:03:00 -
[297]
Correct me if I'm wrong....but didnt the old character creation system give you 5 free attributes to assign during creation? I mean it would seem to me that the 100% bonus to time is negated by the lack of attributes from the lack of learning skills to start. So its more like what oh just throwing out a figure here like 75% bonus rather then a true 100% that is if you were training regular skills with that 1.6 mil...sure you get a bit faster then without it but your still stuck with just 20K sp to work with from day one. You still have to wait about a week to even do anything good in the game...nevermind the month. Some noobs just are too antsy to want to play to even wait a week. They need better skills to start like the old system....but we don't want to package those skills so just give them SPs to allocate where they need them then they can have fun with the good **** from day one and get to train learning skills as well then everyone is happy yes?
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:05:00 -
[298]
Originally by: SammyullJackson
I've looked in the earlier pages of this thread while waiting for you to respond, and noticed a common them from you: "LOL CLICK DA BUTTON AND WATCH IT GO"
Did you never leave the station while doing your learning skills? Put other skills in during it?
You should scroll up a little, this comes up over and over and I already responded to it. Yes, you can do other stuff. But the thing that you guys are arguing in favor of is not the other stuff. It's just the Learning skill train time. So saying "Learning is fine because also there's other stuff you can do" is not a good argument for defending Learning. All the other stuff - flying, mining, shooting, etc., would still be there if you remove learning. You'd still get to do all of it, but it would be better, because you could also be spending time training a skill that you actually want to train. And the part that you guys are all so proud of, that you think makes you "strategic" or "hard-working" or whatever else, is not the other stuff, it's the fact that you waited around for the progress bar to fill up before training what you wanted to.
SO yeah, other stuff = great. Learning != great. Just because you can do Learning and other stuff, doesn't mean Learning is a good idea.
Quote:
Tell me... did you make the mistake of thinking you HAD to simply sit around waiting for your learning skills to build up? While doing absolutely nothing else? Also, did you train up the Charisma stats, and think "man, I'm never going to be training into command ships or trading, so I probably won't need this TOO much..." or anything along those lines?
Or did you fall into the trap that everyone like you puts newbies in, telling them that their ONLY option is to min/max their stats and get ALL LEARNING SKILLS TO L5/5 ASAP OR ELSE YOU FAIL THE GAME FOREVER?
What was it you guys were using? "Bitter vet"? Who's the bitter one?
NO.... I went over this too... I went around flying, learning stuff, shooting, etc., interspersed a few things here and there, waited a while to hit 5/5... just like everyone. So no, you are not a unique snowflake, you didn't "figure out" that you could play the game instead of sitting in a station. EVERYONE knows this, everyone does this, the entire Learning skill routine is almost identical for every single player: You find out they exist, you read a little bit about them, you find out that you'll be severely gimped if you don't train them and that the sooner you train them the better, you hate it, you try to get past the annoying tedium by occasionally putting in a skill that you actually like, and you pray that they will just end so you can get on with actually playing the game. Then, the playerbase splits into two parts: there are the rational people, who say to themselves "My god that was a stupid and boring grind mechanic. Thank god it's over with so now I can do what I want. They should really get rid of that so new players don't have to do it", and then there are the people who think "LOL I outsmarted everyone by figuring out that training the Learning skills actually makes me train FASTER! Man, it totally sucked training them when I would rather have trained something else, but I suffered through it and now I earned my reward. I hope they never remove it, because I want every new player to suffer as much as me before they get to do anything fun. Hopefully some of them will quit or be too stupid to train them, because they don't deserve this awesome amazing reward of fast training times that me and an elite few others have without pain!" These people don't really know what they're talking about.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:17:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
All I have been saying is that if you think the skills were a mistake from the beginning then take them out but don't leave their benefits for free just because you like them.
WHY? Just to "teach me a lesson"? So that the moral of the story can be "Be careful what you wish for"? So that players will learn to be terrified of change like they should be, and never dare ask for anything to change again? What the crap would be the POINT of forcing everyone's training times down to 1/3 of what they are now? It's incredibly obvious that no one would like this, not even you, so why do you feel like doing it is a good idea? Some sort of weird cosmic balance or OCD? I seriously don't understand why you think that the only choices are "keep the learning skills" or "make the game suck horribly and punish everyone for their defiance". This dilemma you're proposing doesn't exist.
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Helio Amor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:17:00 -
[300]
Originally by: SammyullJackson Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 00:01:17 @ Mathias (edits ruined post)
I've looked in the earlier pages of this thread while waiting for you to respond, and noticed a common theme from you,"LOL CLICK DA BUTTON AND WATCH IT GO"
Did you never leave the station while doing your learning skills? Put other skills in during it?
Several people even explained how they were doing exactly that, and you would merely say "YEAH BUT YOU STILL HAD TO WAIT LOL"
Tell me... did you make the mistake of thinking you HAD to simply sit around waiting for your learning skills to build up? While doing absolutely nothing else? Also, did you train up the Charisma stats, and think "man, I'm never going to be training into command ships or trading, so I probably won't need this TOO much..." or anything along those lines?
Or did you fall into the trap that everyone like you puts newbies in, telling them that their ONLY option is to min/max their stats and get ALL LEARNING SKILLS TO L5/5 ASAP OR ELSE YOU FAIL THE GAME FOREVER?
What was it you guys were using? "Bitter vet"? Who's the bitter one?
Also, I was chatting with some people in-game, and they were explaining the math; they figured out that, in order to see a significant return on your learning skills (such that maxing 5/5 instead of 3s, maybe 4s as your plan called for), it would take more than a year. There is not short-term benefit to training learning skills, so your claims that "everyone who doesn't is disadvantaged" ignores people who just want to fly nothing more than Tech 1 Battlecruisers or Battleships of their own race well... and such people do exist.
Your right the short term benefit is not hampered in fact learning skills do nothing for short term. However remember that if a player wants to be in the game for years they will want to get learning skills out of the way asap so that in the long term they arent losing time. If that player is only playing a few months its fine or even a few years. If they see themselves playing 10 years or even just 5 they will want learning skills. So they start training them early like from the start to get a ahead on skill curve.
The problem to address here is they are losing that time to train skills they want to be able to play the game with immediately to the learning skills in order to get them out of the way. By doing that it ties up the skill training and they have to wait I suppose if they are dedicated enough to want to train the skills in the first place they will be to wait a month. Honestly though would you say you would if you were a new player? I can understand what you mean here that the various levels of skill training times adds diversity to the game, but these noobs need something better then just 20K SPs to start with a a promise of 1.6 mil at 100% bonus. About 1652/hour, it helps yes but it still takes time which is something the older sytem didn't have it gave you a large amount of SPs to play around with while you trained those learning skills. The problem with it was the packaged skills theme. We need to eliminate the training bonus and just give them about 900K-1mil SP to allocate where they want it be it learning skills or other skills. This way they have skills to start or they can bring learning skills up to start on regular ones. They still get the advantage of chosing skills and having skills to start with without waiting. The 100% bonus is very nice but it just doesn't do justice to trying to get 20K to 1.6 mil in a short time.
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Roshin Lokel
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:23:00 -
[301]
I really don't see the issue....I mean the large amount of time that older players have invested...it isnt like its just being thrown away or discarded you are getting the sp back you can apply to other stuff. The only problem I see is those players are mad about losing the strategic advantage they hold over noobs...and I'm sorry but if you have to compare your advantages to that of a noob then you need to delete the toon and roll a new one because that's a bit like walking up to a baby and saying "Haha I have everything and you don't" Besides it isn't like noobs are getting the upper-hand here. I mean you still will have enormously larger amounts of SP then they have and being at the same training rate they can never catch up with you unless you freeze your account for quite a while.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:28:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Mathias Black
WHY? Just to "teach me a lesson"? So that the moral of the story can be "Be careful what you wish for"? So that players will learn to be terrified of change like they should be, and never dare ask for anything to change again? What the crap would be the POINT of forcing everyone's training times down to 1/3 of what they are now? It's incredibly obvious that no one would like this, not even you, so why do you feel like doing it is a good idea? Some sort of weird cosmic balance or OCD? I seriously don't understand why you think that the only choices are "keep the learning skills" or "make the game suck horribly and punish everyone for their defiance". This dilemma you're proposing doesn't exist.
I like how you skipped the rest of my post. I really wouldn't have a huge problem with skills taking longer to train. Yet again just because you think some way doesn't make it true of everyone. The point is that you want to get rid of the skills and keep their benefits which would not even exist if the skills weren't created. You haven't proposed any sort of system other than "give free attributes" which is nothing more than begging for a handout. Sorry, I don't like beggars.
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Lost Troll
Moist and Nakked Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:35:00 -
[303]
Edited by: Lost Troll on 02/07/2010 00:35:32 Well if its true, I am glad that CCP is removing them from the game. With over 350+ skills now in the game, and CCP's nerfing of individual ISK making, these time and ISK sink skills are no longer needed.
The other good thing to come out from this is the character bazaar will see the cheaper starter characters disappear and the higher more specialised characters become more expensive.
Hummm...Maybe that's why some people would like this not to happen.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:37:00 -
[304]
I'm going to laugh when ccp says, we are not removing learning skills, they skill point system we just implemented will make it easier for skill points to be reimbursed due to lost time cause of unforseen errors during DT, and bugs with the cloning system.
But seriously, unless they are going to give us 11 points into each attribute, and reimburse all the training time. yeah it aint happening.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:42:00 -
[305]
Edited by: Mathias Black on 02/07/2010 00:43:49
Originally by: Felix Esperium
I like how you skipped the rest of my post.
Well you're skipping most of mine... to answer the part I skipped, the reason they fixed T2 BPO's by taking them away rather than giving everyone all of them for free is that the problem was that there were too many T2 BPO's. Obviously, giving everyone all of the T2 BPO's for free would not solve that. I don't know if you're trying to make a slippery slope argument, like "if they take away learning then they will have to give everyone every skill and infinite isk and every item!" but if you are, that's dumb. You can give Learning for free without needing to give Capitol Ships for free. As a game designer, you pick goals that players need to level up to that are interesting and fun. Working your way up through different ships or different rocks or different blueprints is fun. Training a skill that is mandatory to not suck but doesn't actually give you any progression towards anything interesting is not fun.
Quote: I really wouldn't have a huge problem with skills taking longer to train.
Ok, well, for you, they can set all your attributes to zero. For the rest of us, they can set us to the normal rate. I'm sure if you send in a petition, you could even get them to set your attributes to zero right now! Wouldn't that be fun?
Quote: The point is that you want to get rid of the skills and keep their benefits which would not even exist if the skills weren't created. You haven't proposed any sort of system other than "give free attributes" which is nothing more than begging for a handout. Sorry, I don't like beggars.
Again, we're back to I ALREADY HAVE THE GOD DAMN ATTRIBUTES. SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL. I'm not doing this for my benefit, I'm doing it because I've seen too many new players get frustrated by the stupidity of the learning system and quit. I really don't give a rat's ass if you think all those people are "beggars" that don't "deserve" to play this video game that they are paying for. I'd rather have more people playing. You can still hang out in local chat and call us all peons and talk about how awesome and hard-working you are because you clicked the Learning skill button, you great manly man you. I'm sure all the noobs will swoon at your amazing courage and tenacity, so you'll still have that.
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Intoagun Deshana
Minmatar Sentinel Eradicators of Doom
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:48:00 -
[306]
I been following this topic for awhile and I don't understand why it's being talked about so much. Learning skills are learning skill, why remove them since they been ingame forever.
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Icigar
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:53:00 -
[307]
wait I'm new here and you guys are sure CCP is removing skills? This sounds like the most stupidest thing ever...why would they be removed?
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:00:00 -
[308]
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 01:03:32 Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 01:00:02
Originally by: Mathias Black the problem was that there were too many T2 BPO's.
You sure about that?
Quote:
Ok, well, for you, they can set all your attributes to zero. For the rest of us, they can set us to the normal rate.
Yet again, the "normal rate." What is that? Is your rate not different than my rate?
Quote:
Again, we're back to I ALREADY HAVE THE GOD DAMN ATTRIBUTES. SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL. I'm not doing this for my benefit, I'm doing it because I've seen too many new players get frustrated by the stupidity of the learning system and quit.
You already having the attributes means absolutely nothing. Your newly created characters certainly don't. I don't know who you are to keep speaking for everyone else but I don't have 5/5 personally. Nor do a lot of people I know. At some point (maybe already) I will reach a point where I am worse off because I didn't take the time to train clarity 5. This was completely my choice and I accept that the person who did choose to train it will be better off than me going forward. Apparently living with past choices is a feature you think the game should get away from.
Can I get back all the SP I spent in mining related skills while we're at it? after all, I was a noob and didn't know any better.
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:06:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Felix Esperium Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 01:00:02
Originally by: Mathias Black the problem was that there were too many T2 BPO's.
You sure about that?
Quote:
Ok, well, for you, they can set all your attributes to zero. For the rest of us, they can set us to the normal rate.
Yet again, the "normal rate." What is that? Is your rate not different than my rate?
Quote:
Again, we're back to I ALREADY HAVE THE GOD DAMN ATTRIBUTES. SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL. I'm not doing this for my benefit, I'm doing it because I've seen too many new players get frustrated by the stupidity of the learning system and quit.
You already having the attributes means absolutely nothing. Your newly created characters certainly don't. I don't know who you are to keep speaking for everyone else but I don't have 5/5 personally. Nor do a lot of people I know. At some point (maybe already) I will reach a point where I am worse off because I didn't take the time to train clarity 5. This was completely my choice and I accept that the person who did choose to train it will be better off than me going forward. Apparently living with past choices is a feature you think the game should get away from.
Can I get back all the SP I spent in mining related skills while we're at it?
Hey, wait, if you're gonna let people take back decisions they've made, I want to go ahead and remove all my industry and refinery skilling... I can just get corpmates to make/reprocess stuff for me... Guess I wasn't min/maxing well enough...
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:08:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
You already having the attributes means absolutely nothing. Your newly created characters certainly don't.
Is it really so hard for your bitter little heart to imagine that someone might actually care about other people, and that maybe, just maybe, they don't have a super secret selfish goal behind every single thing they say? I mean, you seem convinced that people are different enough that some of them may not have trained learning, so why can't you believe that some people aren't as much of a douche as you are? I guess at this point I don't have any way to convince you that this isn't all part of my sinister plan to start up an alt slightly faster.... I guess all I can say is I'm glad I'm not as misanthropic as you are. Maybe you should take a break from Eve and go somewhere nice for a change? Buy a kitten? I don't know.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:15:00 -
[311]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Is it really so hard for your bitter little heart to imagine that someone might actually care about other people, and that maybe, just maybe, they don't have a super secret selfish goal behind every single thing they say? I mean, you seem convinced that people are different enough that some of them may not have trained learning, so why can't you believe that some people aren't as much of a douche as you are? I guess at this point I don't have any way to convince you that this isn't all part of my sinister plan to start up an alt slightly faster.... I guess all I can say is I'm glad I'm not as misanthropic as you are. Maybe you should take a break from Eve and go somewhere nice for a change? Buy a kitten? I don't know.
God, you really are an idiot. When I say your newly created characters it could be anyone's newly created characters, it doesn't matter. Just because you don't have a sinister plan doesn't mean other people don't. Also, I am at work right now and thus getting paid to argue with you. I am not angry or bitter or misanthropic or anything else. I just don't agree with you and it appears that bothers you for some reason. Maybe you should get into the Eve spirit and HTFU a little, eh?
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IoWalker
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:27:00 -
[312]
Thread title: Learning skills, the end is near at last!
What we are seeing here is a seditious act basically started by members of the CSM to pose as a popular front on the forums to announce a de facto gamechange. And, with no response yet from CCP on this largely disruptive forum behavior, CCP itself is telling us:
"Yes, we will allow people to post falsehoods virtually in our name on these forums and disrupt and confuse the playerbase, as long as the perpetrators are CSM alts."
That's really the only important thing about this bull thread.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:31:00 -
[313]
Edited by: Mathias Black on 02/07/2010 01:31:28
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
Is it really so hard for your bitter little heart to imagine that someone might actually care about other people, and that maybe, just maybe, they don't have a super secret selfish goal behind every single thing they say? I mean, you seem convinced that people are different enough that some of them may not have trained learning, so why can't you believe that some people aren't as much of a douche as you are? I guess at this point I don't have any way to convince you that this isn't all part of my sinister plan to start up an alt slightly faster.... I guess all I can say is I'm glad I'm not as misanthropic as you are. Maybe you should take a break from Eve and go somewhere nice for a change? Buy a kitten? I don't know.
God, you really are an idiot. When I say your newly created characters it could be anyone's newly created characters, it doesn't matter. Just because you don't have a sinister plan doesn't mean other people don't. Also, I am at work right now and thus getting paid to argue with you. I am not angry or bitter or misanthropic or anything else. I just don't agree with you and it appears that bothers you for some reason. Maybe you should get into the Eve spirit and HTFU a little, eh?
So the reason you want new players to have to suffer through some tedious pointless crap, is that you are paranoid that if they change it, some random other player out there might finally get to go through with their sinister plan to create an alt slightly faster than normal, and somehow this will just ruin your life? It certainly sounds like you're misanthropic. Seriously, who gives a rats ass if some random guy can make the market alt he wants in 4 weeks instead of 5? How is this going to affect you in any way? Especially when you could just copy whatever amazing crap he manages to do with a 4 week instead of 5 week alt yourself?
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Redpoppy
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:36:00 -
[314]
Is this issue the opening salvos in the War for McDonald-izing EVE?
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:44:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Mathias Black
So the reason you want new players to have to suffer through some tedious pointless crap, is that you are paranoid that if they change it, some random other player out there might finally get to go through with their sinister plan to create an alt slightly faster than normal, and somehow this will just ruin your life? It certainly sounds like you're misanthropic. Seriously, who gives a rats ass if some random guy can make the market alt he wants in 4 weeks instead of 5? How is this going to affect you in any way? Especially when you could just copy whatever amazing crap he manages to do with a 4 week instead of 5 week alt yourself?
No the reason I am against it is because I haven't seen a good system to remove them. Magically maxing out everyone's training speed isn't it. I would like +5's in all my velators' holds along with that unit of trit from now on please.
Again. just because you don't see how it could potentially be abused doesn't mean it couldn't be.
My life will not be ruined no matter what happens with learning skills. My day wouldn't even be ruined if they were deleted and I didn't get a thing back for them. Apparently training skills slightly slower than "normal" is a game ruining experience for "everyone" though so maybe I'm not the one who has his priorities messed up here.
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Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:49:00 -
[316]
CCP regrets putting LS b/c it reduces time to train up skills so their income reduces in long-run, not because it turns off new comers. Plus, LS causes players to feel unnecessary frustration If there hasn't been LS from the 1st place. Ppl would have shouted out for LS in that case though. I'm p. sure.
Here is a very interesting counter example. One particular game in beta stage that closely follows CCP's game design does not repeat what you ppl call "mistake" and it doesn't even put LS as well as implants, and make the skill levels up to 10. The result? it takes a lot longer to properly manipulate robots in the game. You'd become even more of skill clicker yourself.
So, let CCP reimburse LS points ( I myself wouldn't even care if they don't reimburse. I've enjoyed what LS gives me as much as I can ), and let every player stuck w/ only 39 pts we begin with.
EVE would be even better that way. |
John Ellsworth
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.02 02:02:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Id like to see the proof of your claims , can you link the blog that contains this info please?
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Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.02 03:31:00 -
[318]
i think the implant system needs a complete rework to remove learning skills. +5's have to become the new +3's, cybernetics needs sub skills, and the implants that go above +5 need to be fairly priced and come in various "flavors" to boost certain playstyles because as it is, almost -nobody- will use good implants because its just not worth it, and at this rate, it never will be unless the scarcity is delicately balanced.
this way, new players will still have to "earn" their learning attributes, but in a much more tangible, and FUN way, through earning ISK to first purchase the implants. the issue here is that players should be having the MOST amount of fun in their first month, NOT THE LEAST.
a system such as this could only work if CCP had some *real experts* to carefully and meticulously redesign the drop rates (maybe do some BPOs?) for all implants, and to create +6-+10 implants. ideally, a set of +10's should run about 1 bil, maybe more, so as to simulate the system we have in place today without removing the stepping stool system we now know as the attribute system.
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:13:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Ghaylenty this way, new players will still have to "earn" their learning attributes, but in a much more tangible, and FUN way, through earning ISK to first purchase the implants. the issue here is that players should be having the MOST amount of fun in their first month, NOT THE LEAST.
Sorry, since when is grinding missions/mining for ISK a fun part of EVE? You can't expect any other form of ISK making from a new player.
Implants are fine as they are.
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Rothrin
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:29:00 -
[320]
I would love to see the end of learning.
But if it has to stay, ban trial accounts from being able to train them and then make them 25% quicker to train.
It should only effect new players as alt accounts will be put on non trial quicker.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.02 05:02:00 -
[321]
I still haven't seen a single argument as why the learning skills should exist in the first place other than "but they existed before, you can't just take them away". It's like the government may lower the taxes and people say "but young people who now start to work pay 10% less tax, and I always had to pay more!".
If a mechanic is bad, tedious and discouraging it should be removed. Yes even if it existed before, that's not an argument to keep them.
And the flawed argument "but new players may train a bit faster then, omg, unfair!!", so what? What if they actually do? You get your SP back to allocate to anything you like and they start a little faster. Not the end of the world.
Compared to when the game started years back we have twice or thrice the number of skills. No-one is going to catch up with you if that's what you're so afraid of. Everyone still has to make some tough descisions concerning remapping and career paths.
Now what is your problem???
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Mr Blue
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.02 05:50:00 -
[322]
So have anyone accualy seen a offical statemet/blog regarding this or is it just a "rumor" in the jungle?
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.02 06:04:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
So the reason you want new players to have to suffer through some tedious pointless crap, is that you are paranoid that if they change it, some random other player out there might finally get to go through with their sinister plan to create an alt slightly faster than normal, and somehow this will just ruin your life? It certainly sounds like you're misanthropic. Seriously, who gives a rats ass if some random guy can make the market alt he wants in 4 weeks instead of 5? How is this going to affect you in any way? Especially when you could just copy whatever amazing crap he manages to do with a 4 week instead of 5 week alt yourself?
No the reason I am against it is because I haven't seen a good system to remove them. Magically maxing out everyone's training speed isn't it. I would like +5's in all my velators' holds along with that unit of trit from now on please.
Again. just because you don't see how it could potentially be abused doesn't mean it couldn't be.
My life will not be ruined no matter what happens with learning skills. My day wouldn't even be ruined if they were deleted and I didn't get a thing back for them. Apparently training skills slightly slower than "normal" is a game ruining experience for "everyone" though so maybe I'm not the one who has his priorities messed up here.
Dude, I'm starting to think YOU don't even know what the hell you're arguing about anymore. First it's "You just want free stuff!" and then when I say I already have it you say "Not YOU you, I mean just the generic you" and then when I explain why it would help everyone you switch back to "Whatever, you just want free stuff!" and then again, no I already have it, and back to "Well not YOU you, idiot, I mean the generic you!" You're not giving any actual reason that you think they should stay except "Maybe somehow someone might figure out how to do something abusive, even though that makes no sense at all, I guess?" and that's a pretty weak defense. There's no complex math here; the learning skills are gone and your attributes are higher when you start. There's no amazing secret exploit you get out of that; you're left with the character you would have a month later, but you have him a month earlier. And then you keep alluding to "a good system to remove them", but apparently the only way a system would be "good" enough to you is if it's such a terrible idea that no one would ever want it, so that the learning skills seem ok in comparison. Paradox much? I seriously don't think you actually care about any of the crap you're pretending to care about, and that your only real reason for wanting to force all new players to have to go through it is that you had to go through it and you think it's not fair if new players have a better time than you.
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Octoven
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Posted - 2010.07.02 06:12:00 -
[324]
Originally by: John Ellsworth
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Id like to see the proof of your claims , can you link the blog that contains this info please?
Believe there was a mention of "this is my personal opinion only" line.....that sort of implies no need to have proof as it is an opinion and not fact.
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Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.02 08:09:00 -
[325]
Edited by: Xylopia on 02/07/2010 08:14:52
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring I still haven't seen a single argument as why the learning skills should exist in the first place other than "but they existed before, you can't just take them away". It's like the government may lower the taxes and people say "but young people who now start to work pay 10% less tax, and I always had to pay more!".
If a mechanic is bad, tedious and discouraging it should be removed. Yes even if it existed before, that's not an argument to keep them.
EVE is a game after all that you opt to enjoy doing what it offers. None forces you to take this "bad, tedious, and discouraging" garbage up in your pretty face like state tax. None locks up your property if you don't pay the bill.
Simply put, if EVE doesn't suit your taste, uninstall it and look for something else.
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Compared to when the game started years back we have twice or thrice the number of skills. No-one is going to catch up with you if that's what you're so afraid of. Everyone still has to make some tough descisions concerning remapping and career paths.
One thing is for sure. Those peeps come and whine never stick around. What they typically say is "LS is killing new subscribers", "EVE is too time consuming", "Its learning curve is too steep", "It takes too long to be any decent at anything!", such and such. Then they leave faster than anyone can even remember. Gone. Disappear.
Now, you've been here for what, about a month? and you're repeating exactly the same thing plus this game is broken because of what makes it successful after all?
I can see where your pompous ego is heading. You're simply saying "I'm so lazy to read guide, setup a plan, and play with even just a bit of EFT, EVEMon, or anything that matters. Please just feed me with silver spoon". Oh, dear. I get that all the time when I pass by starters' system.
Don't ruin my game. If you don't like what EVE is now, build you own EVE like perpetuum-online guys if you can. Otherwise STFU and GTFO. |
AlphaAngel
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Posted - 2010.07.02 10:29:00 -
[326]
I personally couldn't care less if the skills stay or go, I have them all to 5/5 anyway. I used to be against removing them until I realized that was just my ego liking having a completed skill section. So if they were removed a medal or leaving the skills in they character sheet but locking them out would be nice. One of those "I was there and did that" things.
I would not be happy if the SP were not reimbursed but I don't think CCP are that crazy. Also learning skills takes long enough as it is so there would have to be an attribute boost to some degree.
One of the problems I can foresee however, and I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, is the perception that those who did not train the skills will be gettin something for nothing where as those that didwill not as although they get the SP back they alreadyput the time in for it and the possibly rewards that brought
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Leisen
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Posted - 2010.07.02 10:35:00 -
[327]
Originally by: AlphaAngel One of the problems I can foresee however, and I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, is the perception that those who did not train the skills will be gettin something for nothing where as those that didwill not as although they get the SP back they alreadyput the time in for it and the possibly rewards that brought
I agree. If the learning skills go, we deserve some serious compensation for having to bum around for 2-3 months to train learning skills up.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.02 10:45:00 -
[328]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 02/07/2010 10:52:29
Originally by: Xylopia EVE is a game after all that you opt to enjoy doing what it offers. None forces you to take this "bad, tedious, and discouraging" garbage up in your pretty face like state tax. None locks up your property if you don't pay the bill.
Simply put, if EVE doesn't suit your taste, uninstall it and look for something else.
No game, person or whatever is 100% perfect. EVE is quite a nice game but this part of it isn't. It's not black and white, there's always room for inprovement. EVE isn't the same as it was 7 years ago and it will continue to change. "Your game" as such doesn't exist as it may be different tomorrow. You do understand that even without Learning skills, EVE will still be the same game for 99.9%?
Originally by: Xylopia Now, you've been here for what, about a month? and you're repeating exactly the same thing plus this game is broken because of what makes it successful after all?
I play a lot longer than my forum alt may suggest. "broken because of what makes it successful after all", you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Originally by: Xylopia I can see where your pompous ego is heading. You're simply saying "I'm so lazy to read guide, setup a plan, and play with even just a bit of EFT, EVEMon, or anything that matters. Please just feed me with silver spoon". Oh, dear. I get that all the time when I pass by starters' system.
Well I'm sorry but it doesn't show a lot of intelligence if you really cherish the misconception that the removal of the learning skills will make EVEmon and other tools and understanding of the game's mechanics obsolete. In fact learning skills hardly have anything to do with them. Perhaps you think it's very difficult and you're very proud that at a certain moment you finally understood what they did; for me and most other players it's all pretty obvious and the learning skills are just a meaningless silly 6 weeks tedium.
Quote: STFU and GTFO
Your arguments really don't become more convincing by writing that .. |
Dethl0k
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Posted - 2010.07.02 10:52:00 -
[329]
I think they should keep learning skills and remove the new player bonus start new toons with 900k SP to place wherever they want and start giving SP for missions/pvp kills/ratting even a low amount would be nice to reward ppl who play alot |
John Ellsworth
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.02 11:46:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Octoven
Originally by: John Ellsworth
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Id like to see the proof of your claims , can you link the blog that contains this info please?
Believe there was a mention of "this is my personal opinion only" line.....that sort of implies no need to have proof as it is an opinion and not fact.
my point exactly , an opinion should not be represented as a fact .
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 12:05:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Brannor McThife
Originally by: Riedle I have 5/4 learning and am in favour of removing the learning skills altogether. Freed up SP to be attributed elsewhere through new SP allocation tool. Everyone to have the same base attributes - learning implants to stay the same.
win win
Not quite complete... it's the future learning that is of concern for me. Fine, give me a "rough guess" SP pool and pull the learning skills...but give me 50 attribute points to allocate to whichever attributes I want so that I can continue to train future skills at the same (well, slightly better, since I'm a 5/4) rate.
-G
Yes, I think the consensus was +10 on each attribute for everyone. So same base for everyone.
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 12:14:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
So the reason you want new players to have to suffer through some tedious pointless crap, is that you are paranoid that if they change it, some random other player out there might finally get to go through with their sinister plan to create an alt slightly faster than normal, and somehow this will just ruin your life? It certainly sounds like you're misanthropic. Seriously, who gives a rats ass if some random guy can make the market alt he wants in 4 weeks instead of 5? How is this going to affect you in any way? Especially when you could just copy whatever amazing crap he manages to do with a 4 week instead of 5 week alt yourself?
No the reason I am against it is because I haven't seen a good system to remove them. Magically maxing out everyone's training speed isn't it. I would like +5's in all my velators' holds along with that unit of trit from now on please.
Again. just because you don't see how it could potentially be abused doesn't mean it couldn't be.
My life will not be ruined no matter what happens with learning skills. My day wouldn't even be ruined if they were deleted and I didn't get a thing back for them. Apparently training skills slightly slower than "normal" is a game ruining experience for "everyone" though so maybe I'm not the one who has his priorities messed up here.
CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake. CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.
There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol
The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:15:00 -
[333]
To hell with learning skills!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Khun SP
Paramite Factories
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:33:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Khun SP on 02/07/2010 14:33:43
Originally by: WittyName Here Edited by: WittyName Here on 01/07/2010 15:50:41
Originally by: Khun SP Edited by: Khun SP on 01/07/2010 12:13:23 This is the sux...
You want EVE to become the new WOW???
On this game you need a BRAIN, to decide whether train learning skills or not, and many other decissions. Depending on how wise you were, you become succesful or not.
Kill learning skills and you will kill a key decission question for EVE players.
P.S. are they removing attribute implants aswell? that would be the awesome lulzors.. at least this change would imply a bigger will to do PvP...
Are you thick? Based on your post, you imply that after learning skills, there are no important decisions to make regarding training skills.
As someone mentioned a few posts above you:
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 01/07/2010 10:57:41 As with the current training speed - even with +5 implants and learning skills to V - it still takes 30 years for all skills. I think we should get rid of learning skills. Better still: increase learning speed to 4,000 SP/hr max. Games shouldn't require a 10 year investment to be able to get to "the top stuff". It's just a hobby, not work!
Are you telling me that between those years of training until you max all your skills (if you ever do, mind), you don't have to make any more important decisions regarding training skills?
Are you that ****ing stupid?
LOLMAO?
I didn't say there are no more important decissions. But learning skills ofcourse are, and I should say one of the most important specially at the beginning.
You don't need to train for 5/5/5 but if someone does its his problem. Its like entering lowsec with a Charon and no scouts
So yeah lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!
EVE is turning WOW 2.0
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:40:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Khun SP
LOLMAO?
I didn't say there are no more important decissions. But learning skills ofcourse are, and I should say one of the most important specially at the beginning.
You don't need to train for 5/5/5 but if someone does its his problem. Its like entering lowsec with a Charon and no scouts
So yeah lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!
EVE is turning WOW 2.0
Translation: My brain power is a way too low to realize that learnings hurt the game and keep new players away, because not everyone feels like paying few months for a game before actually starting to play it. However, like mentioned above, I don't get it and thus wanna-be-troll this forum. Due to my low brainpower I was often scammed in Jita, people promised to send double ISK, but never did. That's why I hate making EVE a little bit more enjoyable for newbies.
Thanks for your attention!
Khun SP
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Holy Veldspar - where cool kids gather. REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Optical Illusion
Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:51:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Khun SP
LOLMAO?
I didn't say there are no more important decissions. But learning skills ofcourse are, and I should say one of the most important specially at the beginning.
You don't need to train for 5/5/5 but if someone does its his problem. Its like entering lowsec with a Charon and no scouts
So yeah lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!
EVE is turning WOW 2.0
Translation: My brain power is a way too low to realize that learnings hurt the game and keep new players away, because not everyone feels like paying few months for a game before actually starting to play it. However, like mentioned above, I don't get it and thus wanna-be-troll this forum. Due to my low brainpower I was often scammed in Jita, people promised to send double ISK, but never did. That's why I hate making EVE a little bit more enjoyable for newbies.
Thanks for your attention!
Khun SP
shall we remove security status, because i can only do a limited amount of highsec ganks before having to rat it back up and that might prevent new players. shall we remove Standings, i mean, new players would be far more interested if they could do level 4's from day one. shall we remove the ABC ores, and 0.0 rats and put them in highsec so we can all sit happly in empire making a ton of isk whist holding hands and singing kumbyah. shall we just quit now and stop kidding ourselves this game is different from WoW and start calling eve World of Spacecraft?
You sir, are a moron.
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Zverofaust
Gallente Locus Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:51:00 -
[337]
I, too, would like to add my voice to the opinion that Learning skills are an unnecessary and impeding gameplay element, and their eradication (with appropriate compensation) would be of great benefit to EvE Online.
I am however interested in how training will be handled post-Learning. Will non-Learning training rates be tweaked? Will skills train at their "basic, un-Learned levels"? Will they train as if everyone had 5/5s? I am of the opinion that, in a post-Learning EvE, everyone should have their training rates tweaked to represent full 5/5 levels. Thusly, those who invested time into max learning skills are recompensated fully for their SP while those who didn't get less SP reimbursement, but are happy they train faster.
Any less and CCP runs the risk of being accused of removing one time-sink gameplay element and replacing it with a more long-term time-sink design.
___________________________________________ The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara |
SirRalph
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:55:00 -
[338]
Learning skills are pretty worthless. As five years in EVE, I have raised tons of characters and sold them.
Only thing that annoys me alot is the learning skills, advanced skills at lvl5 are pretty rare, because your character has to be over 5 years old to get benefit from them...
CCP, just remove them, like OP said add 10 points for each attribute at character creation, let us to remap them twice, keep the starting bonus.
One of the reasons why some of my RL friends didnt want to continue EVE was that most of the 14 trial they were actually training..learning skills... So the 14 days went...watching how you train learning skills so you could someday train something usefull..lol
This has been long standing issue and it needs to addressed.
I believe that CCP would get more subscriptions by doing this, and I am pretty damn sure about it.
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Doctor Penguin
Amarr Sacred Templars Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.02 15:04:00 -
[339]
Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 02/07/2010 15:04:45 Oh hi. 5 day reactivation to say this:
Remove and rebate all level 3 learning skills. Add 5 onto all stats. Remove Learning, tack its 2%/level bonus onto the Level 1 charisma one.
I'd still prefer no learning skills whatsoever (I even made a thread on the subject when I was a wee 1.5mil pilot) but this would act as a halfway house.
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Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.02 15:28:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring No game, person or whatever is 100% perfect. EVE is quite a nice game but this part of it isn't. [...] EVE will still be the same game for 99.9%
You are a very fine specimen which displays how modern society fails so hard at; a might-be-highly-educated individual without principles and philosophies and only to be deceived by how things look.
Tell you what. LS isn't and shouldn't be considered to be the area where improvement need to be made. It's true. LS does not yield anything tangible instantly. However, LS in fact very well reflect the idea EVE is built upon; you are free to decide what and who you are going to be, and ultimately bear with the outcome at the end: The race, skill sets, how you look, and, even your speed of learning at where you'd like to excel. In doing so, none forces you. not even CCP. not even me.
With LS gone, it might be true that EVE might *LOOK* pretty much the same, but that's the start of the end of EVE known up until this point. Say L.S. is gone. Then what's next? Like you said in somewhere, SP should be sold for RL dollar? Then, how about a full-officer-mod-fitted nice titan for just few bucks to you? With oh-so-many super cap pilots with all maxed out skills around then, can you still tell me EVE is a very nice game to play with straight face? (I somehow know you would) What your asking is what Korean MMO companies do all the time, and they dump their products when "cool-factor" wears out. That's why their product does not have any history or deep thoughts what-so-ever and as shallow as puddle after rain.
All of your posts only reflect your perception of what EVE should be, not what EVE really need to be. I'll just say what you really want to say with all your noise. You feel L.S. makes EVE imperfect b/c it's there and you want it and want it all, but you don't want to train it like I do.
You want it? go train it. It's there for you to take it.
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Yes. I truly do from the bottom of my heart. Good things don't come easy, kid. |
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:08:00 -
[341]
I see the fallacies are as strong as ever in the crowd trying to defend LS. Everything from the informal fallacies' slippery slope to broader non sequitors.
No one enjoys training LS, not even the crowd defending them so we can at least agree on that. However, the arguement is that they are a representation of the core values of EVE in preperation and patience. I won't argue the benefits of removing them because they are clear, easier entry for new players, large SP pools being returned to current players causing a surge of activity as people have upwards of 2m sp to allocate.
However, I still don't see how their removal is damaging. For the current population, their removal wouldn't negatively effect us since we are already seperated by certain levels of SP and everyone training at the relatively same rate wouldn't break this (implants would affect it and yes they remain, the two aren't comparable). Incoming players would still have to plan their training queues according to what they want to do, they just wouldn't have to adjust their training TO adjust their training so they don't have to wait unnecessarily longer. -----------------------------------
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:26:00 -
[342]
Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 16:27:16
Originally by: Saehta I see the fallacies are as strong as ever in the crowd trying to defend LS. Everything from the informal fallacies' slippery slope to broader non sequitors.
No one enjoys training LS, not even the crowd defending them so we can at least agree on that. However, the arguement is that they are a representation of the core values of EVE in preperation and patience. I won't argue the benefits of removing them because they are clear, easier entry for new players, large SP pools being returned to current players causing a surge of activity as people have upwards of 2m sp to allocate.
However, I still don't see how their removal is damaging. For the current population, their removal wouldn't negatively effect us since we are already seperated by certain levels of SP and everyone training at the relatively same rate wouldn't break this (implants would affect it and yes they remain, the two aren't comparable). Incoming players would still have to plan their training queues according to what they want to do, they just wouldn't have to adjust their training TO adjust their training so they don't have to wait unnecessarily longer.
You're right, I don't enjoy training Learning Skills, any more than I did training race Frigate to IV when I never plan to use Frigates exclusively, or Cruiser to IV so that I get to BSs. I don't enjoy having to train Gunnery up to V so I can use Large turrets, or Drones up to V before I can start getting into the advanced drone skills. But I do it, not because I enjoy it, but because it'll mean more in the long run. You say "YEAH, BUT IT MAKES SENSE RP-WISE -- YOU CAN'T USE BIG GUNS UNTIL YOU HAVE TRAINED IN HOW TO USE GUNS WELL!" News for you: There was a class back when I was in high school called Study Skills, and as stupid as it sounds (especially considering your arguments), you basically learn how to learn. And you know what? As a college student, I found that class damned helpful, because it helped me to be able to do **** like take better/more effective notes and write up better-sounding reports. Learning skills do the same thing -- it may sound 'stupid', but it is possible to train up your coordination (Perception skills), or read self-improvement books (Charisma), or work on your Memory (Take a wild guess what I'm referring to), or read books to learn new things (Intelligence), or take speech classes/do some formal debating (Willpower). EVE simulates an entire world -- and in some ways, life -- otherwise; learning skills take nothing away from the canon whatsoever.
I see the same problem in those who think LSs should be removed that you claim is in those who defend it; you always use the same song and dance of "BARRIER TO NEW PLAYERS! NO ONE WANTS TO DO IT! EVERYONE DOES, THOUGH, SO YEAH!" And if that's the case, then we should get rid of all skills that are 'optional' but seem to be commonly taken to V -- the eponymous skill in each category, for example (Gunnery, Electronics, Engineering, Drones, etc.), or stuff like having to wait for Frigates to reach IV before you can fly the next class of ship. If you try to counter that with "Well, yeah, you have to wait for the training in order to qualify for the ability to fly bigger ships", then you have no ground to stand on -- so, too, with Learning Skills do you have to wait now for a benefit later.
I'm sick of all the rhetoric about how "NO ONE WANTS TO WAIT FOR LEARNING SKILLS!" Well, buddy, I've got a laundry list of prereqs that I have no desire whatsoever to use/learn, and accordingly, don't want to wait for; if we're gonna be pulling out learning skills because it takes too long, let's just go ahead and get rid of those, right?
Also, everyone is copying that one claim "CCP DOESN'T WANT LSs EITHER!" Not that I (necessarily) doubt the common consensus/bandwagon, but does anyone have a link? I'd like to see it for myself instead of get it at 4th hand from people who repeat what they heard from others.
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Urgg Boolean
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:28:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Yes. I truly do from the bottom of my heart. Good things don't come easy, kid.
So many people easily forget that games are supposed to be fun. Yes, success is more rewarding when you overcome challenges. And I would agree that intolerance of delayed gratification is sophomoric, but having FUN is the point, and the only point, because this is a recreational activity.
GAMES --> Any Existing Tedium = real, not fun. Thrilling Risk = fabricated in your mind but equates to fun for many/most. Fun = based upon personal experiences and preferences. The Learning Tree of skill provides only tedium and no fun no matter how you define fun personally (unless you actually enjoy tedium).
Take a fundamental task like firing a standard missile : Missile Launcher Operation 2 + Standard Missiles 1 are required to fire your first missile. Not too bad with or without Learning skill, eh? Now take Large T2 guns (or many other examples) - they take a long time, but without Learning skills it goes well past the point of absurdity. Trees like guns are why all the vets I know state that Learning skills are mandatory, simultaneously Learning skills make advancements seem daunting and are discouraging to a noob. I thought it was stupid when I started the game, and I still think it's stupid as I'm finishing up skills for a carrier.
Bottom line for me - DITCH LEARNING SKILLS :: DITCH THE TEDIUM - and I don't even care if I am compensated for the time spent on building a robust Learning Tree. And getting upset by a change like this is just as sophomoric as intolerance for delayed gratification. Remember people : it's a game; it's supposed to be recreational/fun.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:28:00 -
[344]
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 16:28:54
Originally by: Riedle
CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake. CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.
There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol
The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.
I actually laughed at how stupid this is and you are. Maybe you wanting to get rid of the learning skills speaks to some issues that you have outside the game(such as lacking testicular fortitude).
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:29:00 -
[345]
Slippery slope arguments are terrible. Might as well shut down EVE now (and most video games) because before you know it we'll all be violent, anti-social criminals in real life. Argue the idea on its (lack of) merits -- how it could improve/ruin EVE gameplay now -- not what they could be the herald of one day.
Learning skills are an annoyance, and even with them (and +5 implants, and regular neural remaps) there are about 20+ years of skill training left in the game. That is more than enough, and probably excessive imo.
Just about everyone in EVE hates learning skills, or hated them when they had to train them. The only people I see arguing for them are misguided elitists who claim learning skills have some (dubious) social engineering value. (I wouldn't be the tough internet spaceships guy I am today if I hadn't suffered through the learning skill boot camp. Hel, noobs have it easy now. In MY day we trained we trained learning skills while mining in a bantam, in three feet of snow, while being caned with a splintery reed. And we LIKED it!) |
SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:36:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Urgg Boolean
Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Yes. I truly do from the bottom of my heart. Good things don't come easy, kid.
So many people easily forget that games are supposed to be fun. Yes, success is more rewarding when you overcome challenges. And I would agree that intolerance of delayed gratification is sophomoric, but having FUN is the point, and the only point, because this is a recreational activity.
GAMES --> Any Existing Tedium = real, not fun. Thrilling Risk = fabricated in your mind but equates to fun for many/most. Fun = based upon personal experiences and preferences. The Learning Tree of skill provides only tedium and no fun no matter how you define fun personally (unless you actually enjoy tedium).
Take a fundamental task like firing a standard missile : Missile Launcher Operation 2 + Standard Missiles 1 are required to fire your first missile. Not too bad with or without Learning skill, eh? Now take Large T2 guns (or many other examples) - they take a long time, but without Learning skills it goes well past the point of absurdity. Trees like guns are why all the vets I know state that Learning skills are mandatory, simultaneously Learning skills make advancements seem daunting and are discouraging to a noob. I thought it was stupid when I started the game, and I still think it's stupid as I'm finishing up skills for a carrier.
Bottom line for me - DITCH LEARNING SKILLS :: DITCH THE TEDIUM - and I don't even care if I am compensated for the time spent on building a robust Learning Tree. And getting upset by a change like this is just as sophomoric as intolerance for delayed gratification. Remember people : it's a game; it's supposed to be recreational/fun.
If this is your argument -- that EVE is a game and, accordingly, should only have fun stuff in it -- then you are arguing for mining and playing the market to be removed. Both are equally droll activities, reflections more of real life than a GAME -- wow, look how fun it is to push these piles of virtual money around! Marvel at how much joy I get from warping into an asteroid field and click-dragging my way to a mineral bonanza!
Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.
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Iwillcutyou
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:46:00 -
[347]
Quote: Just about everyone in EVE hates learning skills, or hated them when they had to train them. The only people I see arguing for them are misguided elitists who claim learning skills have some (dubious) social engineering value. (I wouldn't be the tough internet spaceships guy I am today if I hadn't suffered through the learning skill boot camp. Hel, noobs have it easy now. In MY day we trained we trained learning skills while mining in a bantam, in three feet of snow, while being caned with a splintery reed. And we LIKED it!)
+1, Even though it reminds me of things I tell my son lol. (Self reflection time? Maybe)
Note: I grew up in the north, he is growing up in the south. No snow here! (I like snow)
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Ghaylenty
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 16:52:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring No game, person or whatever is 100% perfect. EVE is quite a nice game but this part of it isn't. [...] EVE will still be the same game for 99.9%
You are a very fine specimen which displays how modern society fails so hard at; a might-be-highly-educated individual without principles and philosophies and only to be deceived by how things look.
Tell you what. LS isn't and shouldn't be considered to be the area where improvement need to be made. It's true. LS does not yield anything tangible instantly. However, LS in fact very well reflect the idea EVE is built upon; you are free to decide what and who you are going to be, and ultimately bear with the outcome at the end: The race, skill sets, how you look, and, even your speed of learning at where you'd like to excel. In doing so, none forces you. not even CCP. not even me.
With LS gone, it might be true that EVE might *LOOK* pretty much the same, but that's the start of the end of EVE known up until this point. Say L.S. is gone. Then what's next? Like you said in somewhere, SP should be sold for RL dollar? Then, how about a full-officer-mod-fitted nice titan for just few bucks to you? With oh-so-many super cap pilots with all maxed out skills around then, can you still tell me EVE is a very nice game to play with straight face? (I somehow know you would) What your asking is what Korean MMO companies do all the time, and they dump their products when "cool-factor" wears out. That's why their product does not have any history or deep thoughts what-so-ever and as shallow as puddle after rain.
All of your posts only reflect your perception of what EVE should be, not what EVE really need to be. I'll just say what you really want to say with all your noise. You feel L.S. makes EVE imperfect b/c it's there and you want it and want it all, but you don't want to train it like I do.
You want it? go train it. It's there for you to take it.
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring you honestly have the opinion that tedium is EVE's greatest asset?
Yes. I truly do from the bottom of my heart. Good things don't come easy, kid.
the reason why lineage II and games like it are so popular is because people like this who lack the tedium of real world job experience attempt to simulate an environment in which they can excel, and as such, they believe the tedium is infact a 'feature' and not a distraction, simply because they can finally succeed, when it is infact the opposite.
like someone else said, the only people left arguing against this are misguided elitists who truly believe that tedium serves a greater purpose in recreation. tedium is used as filler for when there is nothing to keep you focused on the next shiny. learning skills are an artifact from the days of 2003-2004 when they were concerned about players obtaining all skills at level 5. Today, this is not possible, and the amount of "next shinies" eve has is truly mind-boggling.
But thats not to say giving attributes for free is a good solution. Hell, thats a terrible solution. You'd be giving essentially all L5 learning skills to a newb, who will -still- be just as lost in what to train as before when he had to worry about training learning skills anyway.
No, what we need is a -new- system. A cleverly designed system that rewards old vets for the time we put in (SP reimbursement sounds just fine) but (and this is a big one) there MUST NOT be any way for the new system to impinge upon older players.
The stepping stool system of learning skills IS very important. But the way its done now, is dumb. Players should be playing the game in their first month. Grinding ISK and standing for missions far outweighs running around in a noob frig without fits for a month while you mine veldspar and wait for your learning skills to finish. No, thats a horrible implementation and anyone who cannot see that new players are STRUGGLING to keep playing is just misguided.
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:00:00 -
[349]
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.
Wrong.
Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.
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WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:04:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Khun SP Edited by: Khun SP on 02/07/2010 14:33:43 LOLMAO?
I didn't say there are no more important decissions. But learning skills ofcourse are, and I should say one of the most important specially at the beginning.
You don't need to train for 5/5/5 but if someone does its his problem. Its like entering lowsec with a Charon and no scouts
So yeah lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!
EVE is turning WOW 2.0
Again, you imply that by removing learning skills means that we also want to remove all important decisions for newer players. We don't.
We DO want those important decisions intact. However, Learning skills are NOT a crucial decision in the sense that anyone who is going to play this game for more than a few months (ie. become an active EVE subscriber for an extended period of time) is going to train them.
So even if someone sets out to not train the learning skills during the accelerated training time, if they do decide to continue playing the game, they WILL train the learning skills.
And from the moment you are training learning skills - you are not training other skills that new players will want. Such as salvaging, medium weapons, destroyer, support skills, fitting skills. Instead, they will wait a month before they will do that. And during this time, because they do not have enough fitting skills, support skills or various other skills, they are unable to participate in more activities that are available to players that have already trained them.
So, instead of forcing players to go through that INEVITABLE stage of training learning skills, remove it so that people can continue to the next stage of making important decisions regarding what OTHER skills they want to specialize in.
Again, your statement:
Quote: lets get rid of learn skills and every other annoying stuff for noobs!! we want instawin and ravens after 3 days of gameplay plz!!!
was written under false assumptions. We do NOT want to get rid of important decisions. We just want newer players to not have to go through a stage that is inevitable (unless you want to be playing under a serious disadvantage), in order to improve the retention rate and interest of these players.
So please, think before you speak.
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:07:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.
Wrong.
Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.
It doesn't matter that mining and trading are jobs. They're still boring as **** and, thus, should be removed under your criteria.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must min/max trade or grind 'plexes and/or for L4 missions for weeks if they want to keep their character over few hundred million ISK. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you must do these mundane tasks if you actually want to be rich or be able to afford PLEXes to pay for your subscription. This applies to all players.
Did I do it right?
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WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:10:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Felix Esperium Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 16:28:54
Originally by: Riedle
CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake. CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.
There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol
The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.
I actually laughed at how stupid this is and you are. Maybe you wanting to get rid of the learning skills speaks to some issues that you have outside the game(such as lacking testicular fortitude).
How is that an argument against removing learning skills? All the arguments I've seen from you in the last few pages are circular and repetitive - and they have been convincingly defeated. Your lack of anything constructive in this post is a testament to how you have been soundly and logically defeated.
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:10:00 -
[353]
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.
Wrong.
Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.
It doesn't matter that mining and trading are jobs. They're still boring as **** and, thus, should be removed under your criteria.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must min/max trade or grind 'plexes and/or for L4 missions for weeks if they want to keep their character over few hundred million ISK. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you must do these mundane tasks if you actually want to be rich or be able to afford PLEXes to pay for your subscription. This applies to all players.
Did I do it right?
Yes you did, if your point was to act dense and look like a troll.
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:12:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Felix Esperium Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 16:28:54
Originally by: Riedle
CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake. CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.
There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol
The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.
I actually laughed at how stupid this is and you are. Maybe you wanting to get rid of the learning skills speaks to some issues that you have outside the game(such as lacking testicular fortitude).
Yeah, I am a coward because I want to get rid of useless learning skills that I and CCP agree add NOTHING to the game.
lol
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WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:15:00 -
[355]
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.
Wrong.
Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.
It doesn't matter that mining and trading are jobs. They're still boring as **** and, thus, should be removed under your criteria.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must min/max trade or grind 'plexes and/or for L4 missions for weeks if they want to keep their character over few hundred million ISK. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you must do these mundane tasks if you actually want to be rich or be able to afford PLEXes to pay for your subscription. This applies to all players.
Did I do it right?
No, you did not do it right, sadly.
Learning skills are redundant since anyone who wants to play this game for an extended period of time, will train it eventually. However, an important issue at stake here is the fact that new players are training it for almost a month, while they are missing out on other opportunities - such as training to salvage, training fitting, support and spaceship command skills so they can advance in missions. The fact is that the learning skills will become an obstruction to the expansion of or active participation of activities, events or "fun" a player wants to participate in.
And even if, as some of you people have suggested, a new player does train their gunnery/spaceship command/missioning/fitting/support skills first, they will eventually realize that they need to train learning skills.
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:18:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Yeah, "EVE is a game so that's why" is not a valid argument. I'm not saying it isn't a game, I'm saying that saying that Learning Skills "aren't fun" and that necessitates their removal is equivalent to removing the 'jobs' from EVE. You'll whine and moan that it isn't, but meh, consistency's a ***** sometimes.
Wrong.
Unlike mining, trading, combat, and exploration, Learning is not a job.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must train learning if they want to keep their character non-gimped. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you train your learning skills sooner or later to at least 4/3. This applies to all characters.
It doesn't matter that mining and trading are jobs. They're still boring as **** and, thus, should be removed under your criteria.
Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE must min/max trade or grind 'plexes and/or for L4 missions for weeks if they want to keep their character over few hundred million ISK. There is very little choice involved, it's common knowledge that you must do these mundane tasks if you actually want to be rich or be able to afford PLEXes to pay for your subscription. This applies to all players.
Did I do it right?
Yes you did, if your point was to act dense and look like a troll.
In a stunning move, the pot tries to call the silver kettle black. More at 11:00.
Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: Felix Esperium Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 16:28:54
Originally by: Riedle
CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake. CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.
There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol
The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.
I actually laughed at how stupid this is and you are. Maybe you wanting to get rid of the learning skills speaks to some issues that you have outside the game(such as lacking testicular fortitude).
Yeah, I am a coward because I want to get rid of useless learning skills that I and CCP agree add NOTHING to the game.
lol
Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:21:00 -
[357]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=VAgUwEztj28#t=38m10s
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:26:00 -
[358]
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.
Andddddddd............ boom goes the dynamite.
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:31:00 -
[359]
Originally by: SammyullJackson
You're right, I don't enjoy training Learning Skills, any more than I did training race Frigate to IV when I never plan to use Frigates exclusively, or Cruiser to IV so that I get to BSs. I don't enjoy having to train Gunnery up to V so I can use Large turrets, or Drones up to V before I can start getting into the advanced drone skills. But I do it, not because I enjoy it, but because it'll mean more in the long run. You say "YEAH, BUT IT MAKES SENSE RP-WISE -- YOU CAN'T USE BIG GUNS UNTIL YOU HAVE TRAINED IN HOW TO USE GUNS WELL!" News for you: There was a class back when I was in high school called Study Skills, and as stupid as it sounds (especially considering your arguments), you basically learn how to learn. And you know what? As a college student, I found that class damned helpful, because it helped me to be able to do **** like take better/more effective notes and write up better-sounding reports. Learning skills do the same thing -- it may sound 'stupid', but it is possible to train up your coordination (Perception skills), or read self-improvement books (Charisma), or work on your Memory (Take a wild guess what I'm referring to), or read books to learn new things (Intelligence), or take speech classes/do some formal debating (Willpower). EVE simulates an entire world -- and in some ways, life -- otherwise; learning skills take nothing away from the canon whatsoever.
Slippery slope arguement
Slippery slope arguement
The learning skills are unique to all your examples in that they do not provide an actual gaming advantage. They provide an advantage to getting advantages and its a middle man that isn't necessary. The skill tree still requires planning and patience to get the individual to the desired goal. There are aspects of the real world that are unnecessarily tedious that EVE doesn't need to simulate and one of them is sending your toon through college before you start on a career path or else he will millions of SP behind his peers.
-----------------------------------
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:36:00 -
[360]
Originally by: WittyName Here
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.
Andddddddd............ boom goes the dynamite.
>implying that such a link doesn't exist -----------------------------------
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:39:00 -
[361]
Originally by: WittyName Here
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.
Andddddddd............ boom goes the dynamite.
Wow... so all they say was that a lot of people would be angry about the SP loss. Okay, fine, that's a null point (reallocation, whatever)
I don't see them saying Learning Skills are bad, they're saying that fixing the problem by removing them was a bad idea for various reasons. I didn't hear them say "Ah, well, it's a part of the game, we could remove it, but there's a lot of reasons not to". Just because you remove some of those reasons -- the lost SP issue, for example -- doesn't instantaneously equate to planning to remove the thing itself. It just means they're planning for future possibilities, be it SP microtransactions, skill remaps, and yes, maybe learning skill removal... but it guarantees none of them.
So, with that said, this amazing evidence proves absolutely nothing for your points, nor those of your side's. It just proves that one of you forms loose extrapolation based on a ****load of assumption and inductive reasoning, and everyone parrots it until it turns from someone truthfully saying that "CCP was discussing the nature of learning skills, how complicated it would be to remove them, etc." to the masses of uninformed screaming "CCP SAYS LEARNING SKILLS ARE TEH SUCK!"
So, uh, yeah. Boom goes your dynamite. What kind of metaphor is that, anyway?
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:42:00 -
[362]
He was agreeing with your position. It is meant to imply that your statement asking for a link dropped a bomb on the discussion and blew away the opposition. -----------------------------------
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WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:42:00 -
[363]
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Originally by: WittyName Here
Originally by: SammyullJackson
Hey, uh, could you give me a link to where CCP says Learning Skills add nothing? Everyone seems to use that as a main part of their argument, and I'd like the source. Please and thank you.
Andddddddd............ boom goes the dynamite.
Wow... so all they say was that a lot of people would be angry about the SP loss. Okay, fine, that's a null point (reallocation, whatever)
I don't see them saying Learning Skills are bad, they're saying that fixing the problem by removing them was a bad idea for various reasons. I didn't hear them say "Ah, well, it's a part of the game, we could remove it, but there's a lot of reasons not to". Just because you remove some of those reasons -- the lost SP issue, for example -- doesn't instantaneously equate to planning to remove the thing itself. It just means they're planning for future possibilities, be it SP microtransactions, skill remaps, and yes, maybe learning skill removal... but it guarantees none of them.
So, with that said, this amazing evidence proves absolutely nothing for your points, nor those of your side's. It just proves that one of you forms loose extrapolation based on a ****load of assumption and inductive reasoning, and everyone parrots it until it turns from someone truthfully saying that "CCP was discussing the nature of learning skills, how complicated it would be to remove them, etc." to the masses of uninformed screaming "CCP SAYS LEARNING SKILLS ARE TEH SUCK!"
So, uh, yeah. Boom goes your dynamite. What kind of metaphor is that, anyway?
One that you've clearly not heard of and has no bearing on this discussion.
On to a more important point:
The fact that they are willing to admit it's a problem is already indicative that they don't like the implementation of learning skills or the execution of it.
And as the saying goes... If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They are looking for a way to fix it = it ARE broke, yarr!
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:44:00 -
[364]
Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 17:45:51 Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 17:45:08
Originally by: Saehta He was agreeing with your position. It is meant to imply that your statement asking for a link dropped a bomb on the discussion and blew away the opposition.
I was under the impression that he was saying that I had stumbled upon the lit dynamite that was asking for the source -- and that once I got it, I would be put in my place because I was so obviously wrong, that being the 'boom' part.
He has cemented himself on the anti-LS side, at least that I've seen, so I assumed that the above context was the one he was using; I doubt he would give me any help or credit when I am arguing against him.
His most recent post implies further that he is firmly against my position... not to mention making a big deal out of a random aside.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:45:00 -
[365]
Originally by: SammyullJackson Wow... so all they say was that a lot of people would be angry about the SP loss. Okay, fine, that's a null point (reallocation, whatever)
No, that's not all they say.
Quote: I don't see them saying Learning Skills are bad, they're saying that fixing the problem by removing them was a bad idea for various reasons.
àwhich means that they're viewing learning skills as a problem that needs to be solved.
What you should be latching onto is the fact that we don't quite know what "the problem" is from their point of view: is it player retention? Is it the skills themselves? Is it the training times (including the possibility that they may think we're training too fastà)? Etc. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:46:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Saehta He was agreeing with your position. It is meant to imply that your statement asking for a link dropped a bomb on the discussion and blew away the opposition.
Actually I was disagreeing with his position, but that was mostly because I also saw his other post regarding his demand for proof. So the bomb blew his post out.
Apologies for the confusion, Saehta
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:49:00 -
[367]
Originally by: SammyullJackson I was under the impression that he was saying that I had stumbled upon the lit dynamite that was asking for the source -- and that once I got it, I would be put in my place because I was so obviously wrong.
He has cemented himself on the anti-LS side, at least that I've seen, so I assumed that the above context was the one he was using; I doubt he would give me any help or credit when I am arguing against him.
His most recent post implies further that he is firmly against my position... not to mention making a big deal out of a random aside.
It appears you are correct though I've never used the phrase before to mean those implications. -----------------------------------
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WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:55:00 -
[368]
Originally by: SammyullJackson Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 17:45:51 Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 17:45:08
Originally by: Saehta He was agreeing with your position. It is meant to imply that your statement asking for a link dropped a bomb on the discussion and blew away the opposition.
I was under the impression that he was saying that I had stumbled upon the lit dynamite that was asking for the source -- and that once I got it, I would be put in my place because I was so obviously wrong, that being the 'boom' part.
He has cemented himself on the anti-LS side, at least that I've seen, so I assumed that the above context was the one he was using; I doubt he would give me any help or credit when I am arguing against him.
His most recent post implies further that he is firmly against my position... not to mention making a big deal out of a random aside.
Please, I am entitled to my opinion and so are you. You demanded a source and you have been given a source.
And as for you seeing me cemented on the anti-LS side, the same can be said for you. In fact, you're the one making a big deal out of it, what with another post demanding a source, when you could have asked for it here too.
So yes, you and I are firmly set in our positions regarding this debate. And? Is that such a bad thing?
Please don't turn this into bitter resentment, because I am enjoying this debate very much. I don't see how me being cemented into a position is a flaw. But clearly you do.
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:00:00 -
[369]
Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 18:01:18
Originally by: WittyName Here
Originally by: SammyullJackson Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 17:45:51 Edited by: SammyullJackson on 02/07/2010 17:45:08
Originally by: Saehta He was agreeing with your position. It is meant to imply that your statement asking for a link dropped a bomb on the discussion and blew away the opposition.
I was under the impression that he was saying that I had stumbled upon the lit dynamite that was asking for the source -- and that once I got it, I would be put in my place because I was so obviously wrong, that being the 'boom' part.
He has cemented himself on the anti-LS side, at least that I've seen, so I assumed that the above context was the one he was using; I doubt he would give me any help or credit when I am arguing against him.
His most recent post implies further that he is firmly against my position... not to mention making a big deal out of a random aside.
Please, I am entitled to my opinion and so are you. You demanded a source and you have been given a source.
And as for you seeing me cemented on the anti-LS side, the same can be said for you. In fact, you're the one making a big deal out of it, what with another post demanding a source, when you could have asked for it here too.
So yes, you and I are firmly set in our positions regarding this debate. And? Is that such a bad thing?
Please don't turn this into bitter resentment, because I am enjoying this debate very much. I don't see how me being cemented into a position is a flaw. But clearly you do.
I was making a remark on the fact that you don't seem to be fluctuating between both sides -- and because you are so definitely in the 'enemy camp' (so to speak), there would be no reason for you to arbitrarily 'give me a point'. Saetha (sp) thought you seemed to be a neutral/between-sides person, or even the one for LSs, and I was merely saying that there was no real doubt that neither applied. Any implications on my part that this made you a bad person or whatever you wish to draw from it are solely of your own making -- I was just making a statement of fact, explaining why it was unlikely you were giving me a round of applause.
As for the source, yes, I made a new thread to find it because I wanted more visibility. Otherwise, I risked losing my request to the page/hour rate at which this thread is posted, and/or simply having it ignored. Making a thread EXCLUSIVELY about the source guaranteed that (at least EVENTUALLY) it would be revealed... and sure enough, I got it, if only after a dozen trolls gave me crap and the rest of the posters were going "YEAH LEARNING SKILLS ARE GOING" when that wasn't at all the point of the thread.
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Zions Child
Caldari Carthage Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:04:00 -
[370]
Originally by: SammyullJackson
I was making a remark on the fact that you don't seem to be fluctuating between both sides -- and because you are so definitely in the 'enemy camp' (so to speak), there would be no reason for you to arbitrarily 'give me a point'. Saetha (sp) thought you seemed to be a neutral/between-sides person, or even the one for LSs, and I was merely saying that there was no real doubt that neither applied. Any implications on my part that this made you a bad person or whatever you wish to draw from it are solely of your own making -- I was just making a statement of fact, explaining why it was unlikely you were giving me a round of applause.
As for the source, yes, I made a new thread to find it because I wanted more visibility. Otherwise, I risked losing my request to the page/hour rate at which this thread is posted, and/or simply having it ignored. Making a thread EXCLUSIVELY about the source guaranteed that (at least EVENTUALLY) it would be revealed... and sure enough, I got it, if only after a dozen trolls gave me crap and the rest of the posters were going "YEAH LEARNING SKILLS ARE GOING" when that wasn't at all the point of the thread.
See? Arguing nicely. You can do it. I'll bet he reads your post more than he would have otherwise.
Originally by: CCP Shadow *snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:29:00 -
[371]
Originally by: WittyName Here
How is that an argument against removing learning skills? All the arguments I've seen from you in the last few pages are circular and repetitive - and they have been convincingly defeated. Your lack of anything constructive in this post is a testament to how you have been soundly and logically defeated.
How many times do I need to say that I am not necessarily against removing the skills and that I am against free handouts? Funny, I don't feel defeated. All I see is people whining. "Hey these skills are really annoying and should be taken out of the game so people don't have to train them. Oh wait, their effects are good though so just give us those for free." Sorry, that's not how it works. If you want cool free stuff for doing nothing (other than useless ships) go play wow.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.02 19:44:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: SammyullJackson Wow... so all they say was that a lot of people would be angry about the SP loss. Okay, fine, that's a null point (reallocation, whatever)
No, that's not all they say.
Quote: I don't see them saying Learning Skills are bad, they're saying that fixing the problem by removing them was a bad idea for various reasons.
àwhich means that they're viewing learning skills as a problem that needs to be solved.
What you should be latching onto is the fact that we don't quite know what "the problem" is from their point of view: is it player retention? Is it the skills themselves? Is it the training times (including the possibility that they may think we're training too fastà)? Etc.
As usual Tippia hits closest to the mark.
The video in question does little, if anything, to justify the proposal in this thread. In fact, as it points out the issues inherent with taking a heavy handed approach to "fixing" the learning skill issue it does more to signify why "fixes" of this nature are worse than the "problem". The problem, judged in the cold light of necessary game balance, could very well be that we are learning too fast with those skills available.
Okay, time for a reality check.
1: If you were playing EVE and there were no learning skills available, only your base stats, remaps, accelerated early training, and implants... do you know what the outcry would be for?
It would be for learning skills to be included in the game.
Do you know why I say this? Simply because this is the reason why the upper teir of learning skills exists now, because the EVE oommunity asked for them. I'm not going to say some other mechanic might not fill the bill, but until one is devised this is infinitely better than nothing. And no, free attribute boosts are NOT a mechanic, they are a joke.
2: It's a common statement in this thread that EVERYONE is forced to max out their learning skills. This is of course blatantly false, but lets nip it in the bud right now. Somebody throw up a poll site and ask how many characters people have that have learning skills at 5/5. How much isk would you like to put up in favor of the majority of EVE players have been "forced" into maxing learning skills?
Eh? What? Not willing to do so? Could it be because you really are aware that by far most EVE characters have invested a couple or three weeks in attaining 4/4, and only old timers tend to be at 5/4 (because of the old prerequisite of level 5 for higher tier)... let alone 5/5? Of course, with learning skills the difference in training times between 4/4 and 5/5 is miniscule, but that rather blows large chunks in your armor of outrage.
3: New players are forced to stop playing and endure the tedium of training learning skills. Lets face facts, training any skill does not equal training skills. If you are one of the jerks that has told new players they have to sit on their hands at first and train learning skills before they can do anything the YOU are far more of a problem than learning skills ever was or will be. And as was previously pointed out attaining a high level of learning can be attained in 2 or 3 weeks, which most people slip into the open area's of their skill que.
This means that the valiant members of our community who are arguing for a +10 boost to all attributes instead of this horrible 3 month mandatory scourge that is learning skills can... step away from the soap box now.
4: A +10 bonus to all attributes is no big deal, who cares about whether an alt can be trained faster too. Do I really have to spell out all the ways that the training of brand new characters accelerated to that degree can be abused and exploited? I suppose the tiniest tip of the iceberg would be pointing out how incredibly easy it would be to train up disposable suicide gank alts on trial accounts.
And still no better mechanic suggested. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Flossing
Flush Gordon and The Toilet Ducks of Death
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Posted - 2010.07.02 20:41:00 -
[373]
Following is what I believe would make the game better for new players, without annoying older players.
Get rid of x1 learning skills give all characters +5 to each attribute, leave in the x3 skills and the x1 skill named learning. Reimburse all characters skill points trained in the x1 skills.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.02 20:44:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Flossing Following is what I believe would make the game better for new players, without annoying older players.
Get rid of x1 learning skills give all characters +5 to each attribute, leave in the x3 skills and the x1 skill named learning. Reimburse all characters skill points trained in the x1 skills.
So alts and newbiews will have to train learnings 1.5 months instead of 2? You sir make sense.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.02 20:50:00 -
[375]
It occurs to me that since nobody has thus far come up with a better realistic game mechanic to replace the current system of simply training up learning skills if you wish to train faster, perhaps I should get the ball rolling.
It is a tricky problem, one whose solutions often cause more game balance issues than they are worth. However here is the barest beginning of an idea, no doubt shot through with thousands of drawbacks, that might open the door to a solution that makes for better and more engaging game play.
If we keep in mind that there will be mechanisms introduced with Incarna that allow mini games to be played within EVE (inside a station this mini game area would likely be in a bar, if they follow through on having a personal cabin onboard your ships it could be there as well).
With that in mind it should be possible for gaining enhancements to your attributes to be based on your expertise with specialized "training" mini games. Each game designed to focus on one of the 5 attributes.
Perception enhancing mini-games could be something as simple as a variation on the old Asteroids game, or whack-a-mole for that matter.
Intelligence enhancing mini-games could be based along the lines of the simple chess like mini-game already demo'd for Incarna... or GO, or any number of things.
Memory enhancing mini-games could be anything from maze type games to EVE Trivial Pursuit (although any type of mini-game that has answers that could end up in a guide somewhere are to be avoided). Even something like Simon would be a candidate.
Willpower enhancing mini-games could involve focusing on a particular target and ignoring all other distractions in a shooting game, or really any number of things that involve concentration.
Charisma enhancing games could cover a huge number of possibilities, my favorite being something along the lines of a poker game where it pays to bluff well and sometimes defy the odds. Player vs player competition would sadly probably not be a good option, as people would exploit this by having their own alts play and lose to the character they wish to train up.
The higher you wish to push that attribute (within limits, say 10 above base) the harder the mini-game becomes.
The good: If the mini-games are entertaining and well designed/balanced this give people that are engaged in tedious activities (such as being station camped, enforcing a station camp, mining, gate camping, or for pro mission runners something to do while AFKing those level 4's) something interesting to do as a distraction and still be attaining a benefit for their character. For the miner in particular its a win win situation as they make money while bettering their attributes in an entertaining way.
The bad: A lot of work would have to go into making these mini-games fun, challenging, and well balanced. Perhaps too much work, as a fair amount of resources and personel would have to be focused on it to attain the necessary quality and balance.
Some people may love this idea, many will no doubt hate this idea with a passion. Never-the-less it is simply one way to go in introducing a better mechanic than the current learning skill system we have now.
Who knows, maybe this could be developed into a working concept and make it into game... but thats beside the point. This is simply meant as an example, and possibly an inspiration, for those sincerely trying to figure out a "better mechanic".
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Flossing
Flush Gordon and The Toilet Ducks of Death
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Posted - 2010.07.02 20:55:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 02/07/2010 20:50:42
Originally by: Flossing Following is what I believe would make the game better for new players, without annoying older players.
Get rid of x1 learning skills give all characters +5 to each attribute, leave in the x3 skills and the x1 skill named learning. Reimburse all characters skill points trained in the x1 skills.
So alts and newbies will have to train learnings 1.5 months instead of 2? You sir make sense.
Yes because it doesnt take long to get the x3 to level 3. this is standard training for learning skills at the start. not that many, even older characters train all the x3 to 5. it would allow new players to get into the game much much easier and faster, and at the same time should not **** off the older players too much.
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Playing Eve
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:02:00 -
[377]
Obviously, the real reason for the new SP system is for combat in WiS. There will be a whole set of personal Succubus/Incubus systems to fit, which will act somewhat like a Nosferatu except it drains your opponent's skill points and adds them to your own pool.
I can't wait! WiS will be sweet!
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:10:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring I still haven't seen a single argument as why the learning skills should exist in the first place other than "but they existed before, you can't just take them away". It's like the government may lower the taxes and people say "but young people who now start to work pay 10% less tax, and I always had to pay more!".
???
You and others have overlooked my point over and over again.
For people who value the months closer to them in a game far more than months 6 or 12 months out, the learning skills create a dilema... to go from 4's to 5's t1 a week or two.. but a few weeks each for lvl 5's .
So tldr even after 6 months the choice is sort of fly a hac 2 weeks sooner and fly a carrier 4 weeks later.
Dilemas are a good part of the game. I particularly like dilema's that cause anguish for perfectionists as it sort of roils them. 95% of the time perfectionists come out ahead but its nice to have a few areas where they get in a "does not compute" loop.
So Dilema is good... Leanring skills cause a dilema.
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Dek Kato
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:18:00 -
[379]
Having only briefly skimmed this topic (not reading 13 pages of people cheering/whining with no real content), so sorry if I missed someone saying this.
The main reason this came up is because someone connected the two of them wanting to remove LS (sort of) but not wanting to delete people's SP. This SP allocation tool supposedly gives that ability. Having absolutely no idea how the SP allocation tool actually works, I honestly don't think it could do this. There would have to be the ability to check how much SP each character has in LS, then give that amount. I know this sounds simple enough, but remember, this was a rushed semi-feature implemented in seriously like 3 days. Hence why it just automatically gave the highest SP character the 100k. I think people are reading WAAAAY too much into the introduction of this.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Thread locked due to troll convention.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:19:00 -
[380]
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 21:19:27
Originally by: Flossing
Yes because it doesnt take long to get the x3 to level 3. this is standard training for learning skills at the start. not that many, even older characters train all the x3 to 5. it would allow new players to get into the game much much easier and faster, and at the same time should not **** off the older players too much.
You are missing the point. If he can't get all the attribute points for free then your solution is keeping people down and preventing noobs from having fun. You must be a bitter vet with RL issues for suggesting people not train at max speed for free.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:33:00 -
[381]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 02/07/2010 21:41:05
Originally by: Dek Kato The main reason this came up is because someone connected the two of them wanting to remove LS (sort of) but not wanting to delete people's SP. This SP allocation tool supposedly gives that ability. Having absolutely no idea how the SP allocation tool actually works, I honestly don't think it could do this. There would have to be the ability to check how much SP each character has in LS, then give that amount. I know this sounds simple enough, but remember, this was a rushed semi-feature implemented in seriously like 3 days.
I'm not an expert but as I can imagine it's all in tables and they could easily query the amount of SP per character that has to be refunded.
Originally by: Ranger 1 It occurs to me that since nobody has thus far come up with a better realistic game mechanic to replace the current system of simply training up learning skills if you wish to train faster, perhaps I should get the ball rolling.
Define realistic? You mean agreeable?
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:39:00 -
[382]
Just in case it was lost.. I absolutely favor making it much cheaper and quicker for new players to get to 4-3 (actually I suggested allowing for a 3-3 with 3-1 coming with a new character)
Now, I have 18 million sp and I've only recently started to go from 4-4 to 5-4..but i've posponed that because I felt like flyin a saber instead of an eris asap.
For those of you that argue that the Sensible choice is 5-5 or 5-4 asap, I'll even refute that from a sort of economic, not a emotional perspective.
Being able to fly a ship sooner would have a value in isk....that means it has a value. If you had a hyposthetical type of character that would be removed from the game after 6 months that sort of character would still have value on the character bazaar.. Would it be 1/2 a permanent character 1/4 ? Hard to say. But whatever it was you would need to divide that amount by the number of months. Or in a less complex way, you could rent the abilty to fly a carier for a month.. how much would people pay in isk for that? 50 million? it would depend on the urgency of the need.
Someone who urgently wanted a freighter pilot might pay 150 million for a month's use rather than 1 billion to buy one on the bazar.
The point is there is a value to getting a skill sooner short term. You get the vaalue of the skill during that period. As this is a game.. there is another value stream beyond the isk value that is impossible to value but its less than0... the incremental fun you get druign that period which is the difference between training skills to a top level and the time used creating a plan with the soonest possible use date, forgoing some learning skills.
You can't argue that there is a value there. You would agree that the value is differnt for different players...depedning on their desires or predicted legnght of play.
This Value analysis is not as simple as people have made it out to be. You can't day that isn't a complex decision to ponder, can you? Is there one right answer for all players?
Cost benefit analysis is a part of the game and learning skills above 4-3 are definitely debateable for players with a moderate play horrizon of say 6 months ahead.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:45:00 -
[383]
Do you have your learning skills to 4/3?
Do you have your learning skills to 5/4?
These are not questions you will ever hear in a recruitment, a fleet invite, or any other activity one may participate in. Every other skill can be used as a qualifier or disqualifier to something in game. Learning skills can not.
I see in this thread that those that 'seem' to be against the removal of learning skills are not against the removal of them, but are against the removal of learning skills if their own percieved advantage, for whatever level they have trained them to, is not compensated for.
Are they not cute when when they throw temper tantrums
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:48:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon Do you have your learning skills to 4/3?
Do you have your learning skills to 5/4?
These are not questions you will ever hear in a recruitment, a fleet invite, or any other activity one may participate in. Every other skill can be used as a qualifier or disqualifier to something in game. Learning skills can not.
So the fact that you can't discriminate based on them means they shouldn't exist? I see...
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:54:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
So the fact that you can't discriminate based on them means they shouldn't exist? I see...
No; you can discriminate based on them. I provided the example But obviously no one does becuase they provide zero tangible benefit to the game.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:55:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 02/07/2010 21:41:05
Originally by: Dek Kato The main reason this came up is because someone connected the two of them wanting to remove LS (sort of) but not wanting to delete people's SP. This SP allocation tool supposedly gives that ability. Having absolutely no idea how the SP allocation tool actually works, I honestly don't think it could do this. There would have to be the ability to check how much SP each character has in LS, then give that amount. I know this sounds simple enough, but remember, this was a rushed semi-feature implemented in seriously like 3 days.
I'm not an expert but as I can imagine it's all in tables and they could easily query the amount of SP per character that has to be refunded.
Originally by: Ranger 1 It occurs to me that since nobody has thus far come up with a better realistic game mechanic to replace the current system of simply training up learning skills if you wish to train faster, perhaps I should get the ball rolling.
Define realistic? You mean agreeable?
Heh, sort of.
Jennifer, I know I've been in your grill on this issue but honestly, I can't really classify the +10 to everyone option as a realistic option.
Is it technically possible? Sure, now.
But from a game balance point of view I don't think it is a practical solution. Not that what I threw together is necessarily practical (although who knows what is currently on the Incarna developement table), but this solution you defend is exploitable (as is pointed out above).
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:58:00 -
[387]
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 22:01:59
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
No; you can discriminate based on them. I provided the example But obviously no one does becuase they provide zero tangible benefit to the game.
They do provide a tangible benefit, which is why everyone wants this ridiculous attribute buff if they are removed.
-When was the last time a gang leader asked you what your frigate construction skill level was? Because this never happens does that mean the skill provides no tangible benefit?- edit: just reread your post and this part fails, my bad.
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:06:00 -
[388]
Edited by: Torpir Lee on 02/07/2010 22:06:54
Originally by: Ranger 1
The video in question does little, if anything, to justify the proposal in this thread. In fact, as it points out the issues inherent with taking a heavy handed approach to "fixing" the learning skill issue it does more to signify why "fixes" of this nature are worse than the "problem". The problem, judged in the cold light of necessary game balance, could very well be that we are learning too fast with those skills available.
Are you suggesting CCP doesn't like learning skills because people are getting skill points too fast? Seriously? That's your argument? Soundwave clearly stated that the first two months of his subscription were spent playing another game and training learning skills. Whether he was sarcastic or not, that clearly indicates he thinks the problem is the new player experience, as he experienced it himself.
As for more of what Soundwave said, he said he was thinking of reimbursing people their SP's and ISK, and that might make a lot of people angry. Note, he didn't mention giving people any attribute points. Just SP's and ISK. OP's hypothesis covers that.
I believe, take that as you will, that giving people their SP back and +10 attribute points will cover most people's issues of getting rid of learning skills. No one loses, everyone gains just about the same. Who gains the most though? The new player experience.
You think giving everyone +10 attributes is a "joke"? I find it a joke having to play minigames just so i can train skills faster, something you suggested for some reason.
As for the rest of your points:
Quote: It's a common statement in this thread that EVERYONE is forced to max out their learning skills.
Very few if any people have said everyone must train max learning. Most of the people here have said that if you want to play EVE for the long haul(few+ months), you must train learning skills to respectable levels(Not max) if you want to have effective skill training.
Quote: New players are forced to stop playing and endure the tedium of training learning skills. Lets face facts, training any skill != playing the game.
Again, very few if any people have argued this. Most people agree that, while learning skills don't force you to spin ships 24/7, they can unintentionally stall new players from training skills that encourage fun gameplay(Minmatar Cruiser IV for example).
Quote: A +10 bonus to all attributes is no big deal, who cares about whether an alt can be trained faster too. Do I really have to spell out all the ways that the training of brand new characters accelerated to that degree can be abused and exploited? I suppose the tiniest tip of the iceberg would be pointing out how incredibly easy it would be to train up disposable suicide gank alts on trial accounts.
A suicide ganking trial account is already pretty easy to set up in terms of training. This won't change a thing. Even if you get your skills a day earlier, you will still be limited by sec status and trial restrictions.
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SirRalph
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:14:00 -
[389]
Just admit it!
YOU ALL HATE LEARNING SKILLS!
GO GO GHANA! NO WTF!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!
WTF ****ING HELL PENALTY SHOT WAS THAT WTF OMFG YOU'RE WORSE THAN [INSERT TYPICAL FAILURE ALLIANCE HERE]!!!!
OMG ASAMOUAHAH WTF WAS THAt?!!!1111#
anyhoo, rEMOVE THE LEARNING SKILLS!
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:17:00 -
[390]
I'd be interested to know how many of the people still whining about the obvious fix are trolling and how many actually believe they would lose out in some way.
The best solution: reimburse all Learning SP, give everyone +10 to all attributes so the base attribute level is 15, give free remap and a +10% boost to base training speed to replace Learning V. Levels the playing field without punishing anyone except for the time they spent not being able to play properly (which is lost, but made up for with the SP pool). I fail to see why anyone could have a problem with this that isn't purely churlish.
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Dek Kato
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:19:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Dek Kato My last post
I'm not an expert but as I can imagine it's all in tables and they could easily query the amount of SP per character that has to be refunded.
Well, from the Youtube video people are sourcing the "CCP hates learning skills" bit from, when they mention the idea of just reimbursing people the SP and ISK for the skills, they mention the database guy glaring at them. So I really don't think its that simple and I really don't think they fixed those issues with a simple SP granting system. Its just a new level of complexity to what I imagine was a very simple tool.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Thread locked due to troll convention.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:22:00 -
[392]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 22:24:54
Originally by: Felix Esperium
They do provide a tangible benefit, which is why everyone wants this ridiculous attribute buff if they are removed.
-When was the last time a gang leader asked you what your frigate construction skill level was? Because this never happens does that mean the skill provides no tangible benefit?- edit: just reread your post and this part fails, my bad.
No worries, it is easy to get discombobulated in these threadnaughts.
They do not provide a tangible benefit to game play, they provide a direct benefite to skill training times of individual pilots. This may be a bridge we may not cross but it is not a breaker for either side of the argument.
I see your side of the argument, I do, but I come from a pen and paper background where in some games all characters started with a maximum number of attribute points that they could distribute anyway they see fit. I do no think that this is a cut and dry argument, but the crux is that a very small percentage of the population actually has LS trained to 5/5 and will actually suffer from any change to the system. I also agree that every choice in EVE should have a consequence, but I think the learnign skills are just a real funny and aggrevating aspect of EVE that really adds little to the game experiance.
I think maybe giving everyone +5 to each attribute and creating higher learning implants would be a good comprimise. Obviously things would need to be tweaked as it has to with drop rates of implants, but that way pilots can choose to train faster and then can truely have consequences for the decision to have their learnign skills attributes so high.
But seriously, any new player coming into this game is going to hear about learning skills. The first skill they want to take to level 5 is when they will be like, gosh I need to train those learning skills cause this is going to take too long and other skills are going to be horrible.
Couple this with the do and do not trian the LS early crowds and the price of the advanced learnign skills, this can be a huge turnoff to a new player, and CCP realizes this. They are a business and they want to find a better way to do this. We just need to help flesh it out.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:30:00 -
[393]
Edited by: Obyrith on 02/07/2010 22:37:14
Originally by: Dek Kato
Well, from the Youtube video people are sourcing the "CCP hates learning skills" bit from, when they mention the idea of just reimbursing people the SP and ISK for the skills, they mention the database guy glaring at them. So I really don't think its that simple and I really don't think they fixed those issues with a simple SP granting system. Its just a new level of complexity to what I imagine was a very simple tool.
Maybe it was complicated but the problems were solved during the SP-re-embursement-tool-coding stage.
Re-embursing the isk would be more complex, because it would require crediting everyone's wallets with the value of any Learning Skillbooks they own, not just the ones they've injected - or the setting up of large NPC buy orders for skillbooks that are no longer sold at their original price. It's doable but not super-simple.
Originally by: Slade Trillgon I think maybe giving everyone +5 to each attribute and creating higher learning implants would be a good comprimise. Obviously things would need to be tweaked as it has to with drop rates of implants, but that way pilots can choose to train faster and then can truely have consequences for the decision to have their learnign skills attributes so high.
Not that I hate this idea, but it would be a giant cluster**** to implement on so many levels. All the implants in the game already have set percieved values, but that value would be changed completely even by tweaking the drop rates, let alone introducing +6 to +10 implants.
What happens to people who trade in attribute implants in that kind of situation, and have large stocks, I would not want to try to predict. Most likely they'd discover their +4s and +5s were suddenly worth much less.
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RatKnight1
Gallente Mahdi Followers
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:39:00 -
[394]
I don't care one way or the other what happens to LS's... I had just better get the SP for the level 5's I did if they take them away. That was a lot of training time that I could have put towards something else. [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=RatKnight1][/u |
Ori Blake
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:48:00 -
[395]
I think the game is boring for a lot of people if we can get 14 page threads over whether or not to remove learning skills based on a SP reimbursement mechanism. I would say less forum arguing, and more going into game and making things happen.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 23:09:00 -
[396]
ok instead of just saying "no" all the time I will throw in an idea.
Remove learning skills, give no free attributes, give learning SP back, implants stay the same.
Tie learning/attribute enhancement into the new player experience. Make the tutorials more involved and have them actually teach you how to play the game and give attribute points upon completion.
Each attribute should come from different sorts of tasks. Just as an example of what I'm thinking you could award a point of perception for fitting your ship, then another for shooting some rats, then another for getting your noob ship blown up (too many noobs are afraid of death) then maybe another for shooting a player ship, then one for surviving a GCC for a full 15 minutes. And so on for the rest of the points, with each task getting slightly more difficult. Willpower points could be gained from using drones or taking a tour of lowsec or something. Charisma points could be gained by trading or joining a player corp. etc...
This way we aren't giving things out for free, new players get attributes without having to train for them, noobs get involved and actually learn the game while "training learning skills", they get out of highsec and experience a little of the variety the game has to offer before becoming mindless slaves to the mining/mission grind, and vets would be mildly inconvenienced but would most likely be able to accomplish all the tasks very quickly and painlessly. Make sure everything can be done from 0.0 too so people aren't forced to make a trip to empire if they don't want to. I would expect the total time of these attribute gathering missions to take maybe a few days to a week for a brand new player.
Unfortunately, this would be very annoying for alts an I haven't yet thought of a good way around that. Maybe someone else has an idea.
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SirRalph
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.02 23:11:00 -
[397]
Learning skills are about 5 million skillpoints, wich is about 1/4th of the amount of skillpoints you can train in a year when you're maxed out.
They contribute absolutely nothing in the game.
Or is there some ****ing ******s thinking that LEARNING THE ****ING SKILLS IS SOMEKIND OF PVP?!?!??!?!
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 23:14:00 -
[398]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 23:23:03 Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 23:21:12
Originally by: Felix Esperium ok instead of just saying "no" all the time I will throw in an idea.
Remove learning skills, give no free attributes, give learning SP back, implants stay the same.
Tie learning/attribute enhancement into the new player experience. Make the tutorials more involved and have them actually teach you how to play the game and give attribute points upon completion.
Each attribute should come from different sorts of tasks. Just as an example of what I'm thinking you could award a point of perception for fitting your ship, then another for shooting some rats, then another for getting your noob ship blown up (too many noobs are afraid of death) then maybe another for shooting a player ship, then one for surviving a GCC for a full 15 minutes. And so on for the rest of the points, with each task getting slightly more difficult. Willpower points could be gained from using drones or taking a tour of lowsec or something. Charisma points could be gained by trading or joining a player corp. etc...
This way we aren't giving things out for free, new players get attributes without having to train for them, noobs get involved and actually learn the game while "training learning skills", they get out of highsec and experience a little of the variety the game has to offer before becoming mindless slaves to the mining/mission grind, and vets would be mildly inconvenienced but would most likely be able to accomplish all the tasks very quickly and painlessly. Make sure everything can be done from 0.0 too so people aren't forced to make a trip to empire if they don't want to. I would expect the total time of these attribute gathering missions to take maybe a few days to a week for a brand new player.
Unfortunately, this would be very annoying for alts an I haven't yet thought of a good way around that. Maybe someone else has an idea.
Now that is a great idea.
The idiots that do not do the tutorials suffer the consequences until they go back and do them. The new players that get into corps and do them will gain the attribute boni faster then noobs that tend to solo to begin with. Everyone has consequences for their actions and everyone ends having the ability to gain all the attribute boni at differing intervals without a forced skill training down time.
I especially like the idea of increased player based interaction missions to attain the higher attribute boni
EDIT 2: To the alt coment. I would say it would work as intended. Alts are a bane to the game and should be forced to interact as much as possible if they are going to be tolerated.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Jas Dor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.02 23:37:00 -
[399]
Hum wouldn't the best idea be:
1. Keep learning skills (if you turn them into real attributes they can be remapped which would be bad).
2. Give all characters maxed learning skills.
3. Refund all skill points put into learning skills (to the level trained before the change of course).
4. Tell everyone that they're SOL on the isk that they spent on the skills (or else refund the current NPC value, either way.)
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.02 23:42:00 -
[400]
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 23:43:25 Thank you Slade.
After further thinking I agree that alts could just deal with it. Most of the time alts aren't fully learned anyway (unless they are a pretty serious alt) so taking a bit of time and only doing some of the tasks wouldn't be a big issue.
This system would also retain a bit of the decision making of the learning skills as I just demonstrated. No one would be forced to do everything although I imagine those last +1s would become much more attractive than they are now at 12 days training each.
Edit: apparently the word modi****is censored
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John Ellsworth
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.02 23:51:00 -
[401]
Edited by: John Ellsworth on 02/07/2010 23:55:35
Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
So the reason you want new players to have to suffer through some tedious pointless crap, is that you are paranoid that if they change it, some random other player out there might finally get to go through with their sinister plan to create an alt slightly faster than normal, and somehow this will just ruin your life? It certainly sounds like you're misanthropic. Seriously, who gives a rats ass if some random guy can make the market alt he wants in 4 weeks instead of 5? How is this going to affect you in any way? Especially when you could just copy whatever amazing crap he manages to do with a 4 week instead of 5 week alt yourself?
No the reason I am against it is because I haven't seen a good system to remove them. Magically maxing out everyone's training speed isn't it. I would like +5's in all my velators' holds along with that unit of trit from now on please.
Again. just because you don't see how it could potentially be abused doesn't mean it couldn't be.
My life will not be ruined no matter what happens with learning skills. My day wouldn't even be ruined if they were deleted and I didn't get a thing back for them. Apparently training skills slightly slower than "normal" is a game ruining experience for "everyone" though so maybe I'm not the one who has his priorities messed up here.
CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake. CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.
There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol
The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.
so they said it at a fan fair? humm funny none of them will post it to an official forum or developer blog.. possible reason for saying this at a fan fair? Example when confronted with a pack of hungry dogs,, Giving them what they want "raw meat" would be the sane thing to do if you like life..As for your last comment, Quit trolling please I'm not for or against learning skills but the fact remains alot of people "most all players" have invested time into them and at this late date to change that system would be like a slap in the face for all of them... also not agreeing with the thought that learning skills suck , they are a part of Eve and I consider the entire system to be flawless to put it bluntly no need to adjust perfection.
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Dek Kato
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.03 00:29:00 -
[402]
Edited by: Dek Kato on 03/07/2010 00:33:42
Originally by: Obyrith Edited by: Obyrith on 02/07/2010 22:37:14
Originally by: Dek Kato
Stuff
Maybe it was complicated but the problems were solved during the SP-re-embursement-tool-coding stage.
Well this is just what I mean. That coding happened over literally like, 3 days. I don't see them fixing a major database issue with this idea in the span of those 3 days when they were just trying to do a simple SP credit, including bug testing.
Not ruling it out, but ultimately if I could I'd be investing in tin foil at this time as I feel its demand is on the rise.
-
As to those whining about alts, get over it and stop whining that CCP has figured out a way to make more money with a smaller subscriber base. Also, null and low would be even emptier than they are now if people didn't have money making alts working for them. Prices would be higher as we'd have fewer miner/missioning alts going, and the economy would just overall slump. CCP has to take alts into account with this.
That said, I wouldn't be opposed to doing a short tutorial to get an alt going. But I feel the tutorials are a dumb way to give out the increased attributes, as are missions. Either keep the LS as are, or just drop the idea and give us increased attributes so we don't have to bother with them. No senseless grinding in my EVE please.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Thread locked due to troll convention.
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Erdiere
Minmatar Erasers inc. Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.07.03 00:45:00 -
[403]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...... Thus, there is ample room for the statement that "elite" learnign skills will benefit them more, since most of them already have the prerequisites to train them off the bat when they come out, while, say a new player, just gets more learning skills the they have to learn to be long term competitive.
And you see, this is the real point why it's the last thing to do. We dont WANT more "mandatory" skills which give you no direct benefit. If anything, we'd like to exterminate the damn things. ......
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=298143&page=3#81
That's Oveur saying they aren't hot for the learning skills, and not at a gun point on fanfest.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.03 02:25:00 -
[404]
Nice. A quote of CCP saying they want to exterminate learning skills. You can't get more blunt then that.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.03 05:26:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Felix Esperium Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 23:43:25 Thank you Slade.
After further thinking I agree that alts could just deal with it. Most of the time alts aren't fully learned anyway (unless they are a pretty serious alt) so taking a bit of time and only doing some of the tasks wouldn't be a big issue.
This system would also retain a bit of the decision making of the learning skills as I just demonstrated. No one would be forced to do everything although I imagine those last +1s would become much more attractive than they are now at 12 days training each.
Edit: apparently the word modi****is censored
I will move it to the second post if you would like. Otherwise I recommend, that we flesh out the ideas a bit and then make a proposal in the Features and Ideas section. I really think this proposal has great potential.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.03 05:52:00 -
[406]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
How many times do I need to say that I am not necessarily against removing the skills and that I am against free handouts? Funny, I don't feel defeated. All I see is people whining. "Hey these skills are really annoying and should be taken out of the game so people don't have to train them. Oh wait, their effects are good though so just give us those for free." Sorry, that's not how it works. If you want cool free stuff for doing nothing (other than useless ships) go play wow.
There needs to be something like Godwin's Law, maybe MMOdwin's law, where the argument "Everyone who disagrees with me should go play WoW!" means you automatically lose at the internet and life.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.03 06:25:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Mathias Black
"Everyone who disagrees with me should go play WoW!"
All I'm saying is that if you like free stuff this much (you obviously do), wow is where you want to be. Or craigslist.
Slade, I am not down for putting a ton of :effort: into the details of that idea but if you want to run with it please feel free.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.03 08:40:00 -
[408]
o/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.07.03 09:06:00 -
[409]
I don't have any issues with learning skills, not do I have any issues with them being removed. Que sara sara.
All my chars have 5/5 except 3 which have presence at 4. I therefore think the op idea suits me best if they are removed.
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Drenan
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.03 09:10:00 -
[410]
1. Remove learning skills
2. Remove existing learning-skill points from player attributes.
3. Refund max learning-skill points to remap pool for all players. (one-off reset of the remap mechanism required)
4. Refund existing learning-skill sp via the new mechanism.
5. Refund existing learning skill book isk.
Sorted?
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Mahijawanna
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Posted - 2010.07.03 09:28:00 -
[411]
Learning skills make sense.
*View details in the other posts of people saying the same thing back and forth.*
So when CCP says they're going, we will have to deal with it. For now and the near future learning skills are here to stay.
Patience is a lesson well learned...in training learning skills.
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lodik
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Posted - 2010.07.03 10:22:00 -
[412]
Reading all of this bickering is hilarious really I took one read over of the Op and figured out exactly whats going on. So those who want to know the answer its here:
CCP have always stated how they are trying to deal with learning skills-
The OP is actually part of ccp but just made this thread with facts so they could see our reaction without it being an actual CCP blue box post\
You think they really wrote the code for how easily it was to allocate those sp points? no they are obviously going to use it. They could of made it so whatever you were training to add xxx points but they didn't they wrote a code for it.
Mark my words this is exactly what is happening. nuff said /thread
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Orimei
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Posted - 2010.07.03 10:30:00 -
[413]
I agree that patience is a virtue.
However, I'll throw a wild guess out here and say that most people aren't playing internet spaceships for their personal betterment but to have fun.
The slippery slope arguments aren't valid, either. Noone is asking to start with max skills or something like that. The problem with learning skills is that they aren't fun or exciting. Take engineering for example: while considered a vital skill to have at level 5 (and I guess most players indeed have it at level five) here the progression is indeed exciting: with each level you can squeeze more stuff on your ship which is something to look forward to and all that.
So, I think either the learning skills need to be removed in the way the op suggested or they need to somehow be changed to not only affect the 'abstract' concept of lower training times but also directly effect ship performance in some way to gain this looking forward to the next level feeling.
So, flame me as an instant-gratification dude or whatever but it is my opinion that the (perceived?) problems with learning skills stem largely from the fact that they don't offer instant gratification in the way another level of electronics has.
-- English isn't my first language and I have the feeling my writing sounds strange, please ignore this.
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ObviousTroll Alt
Gallente Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2010.07.03 10:46:00 -
[414]
In the beginning was the Lord, and the Lord was GOD and the Lord was with God, and he decreed that learning was a good thing by saying "Study to show your self worthy of the Lord thy God".
Long live Learning Skills! And may the whiney little ***s that want them removed get hit by Busses.
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Orimei
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Posted - 2010.07.03 10:48:00 -
[415]
Originally by: ObviousTroll Alt
Long live Learning Skills! And may the whiney little ***s that want them removed get hit by Busses.
Yo dawg, I heard you like learning, so we put some learning in your learning, so you can learn while you learn.
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ObviousTroll Alt
Gallente Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2010.07.03 10:50:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Orimei
Originally by: ObviousTroll Alt
Long live Learning Skills! And may the whiney little ***s that want them removed get hit by Busses.
Yo dawg, I heard you like learning, so we put some learning in your learning, so you can learn while you learn.
WIN \o/
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La Faraona
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Posted - 2010.07.03 12:44:00 -
[417]
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.03 14:43:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: WittyName Here
How is that an argument against removing learning skills? All the arguments I've seen from you in the last few pages are circular and repetitive - and they have been convincingly defeated. Your lack of anything constructive in this post is a testament to how you have been soundly and logically defeated.
How many times do I need to say that I am not necessarily against removing the skills and that I am against free handouts? Funny, I don't feel defeated. All I see is people whining. "Hey these skills are really annoying and should be taken out of the game so people don't have to train them. Oh wait, their effects are good though so just give us those for free." Sorry, that's not how it works. If you want cool free stuff for doing nothing (other than useless ships) go play wow.
I don't see anyone whining. People are agreeing that learning skills were and are a mistake to implement in the game and discussing the best way to remove them. You on the otherhand insist on calling people names with whom you disagree. And then you present yourself as the hardeneded vet (lol) telling people to go back to WOW.
Really, it seems you have no argument at all - or maybe you are unaware on how to articulate one correctly.
Your call.
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.03 14:53:00 -
[419]
Quote: so they said it at a fan fair? humm funny none of them will post it to an official forum or developer blog.. possible reason for saying this at a fan fair? Example when confronted with a pack of hungry dogs,, Giving them what they want "raw meat" would be the sane thing to do if you like life..As for your last comment, Quit trolling please I'm not for or against learning skills but the fact remains alot of people "most all players" have invested time into them and at this late date to change that system would be like a slap in the face for all of them... also not agreeing with the thought that learning skills suck , they are a part of Eve and I consider the entire system to be flawless to put it bluntly no need to adjust perfection.
I have invested alot of time in them and still want to see them gone. Know why?
Because having them in is bad for the new player experience and I want this game to grow. It's not about what's best for me, its about what's best for the game.
They will need to reimburse the skillpoints somehow to make it 'fair' to the vets (like me) but thats not my main impetuous for wanting them gone. It's so we get more people playing this fantastic game.
Learning skills add nothing to game play and their remoaval improves the new player experience and we have more new players then we should ALL be on board with getting rid of them.
Also, It's Fan Fest and furthermore the link was already posted.
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Hohenheim OfLight
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.03 17:00:00 -
[420]
not going to happen would be nice, I been playing since 2005 and they not changed it yet. ----------------------------------------------
Is mining for a hel mad? or just ambitious?
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Radix Salvilines
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
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Posted - 2010.07.03 17:05:00 -
[421]
im 80mil sp and honestly - i quite like the op's idea...
Learning skills are stupid :P Instead i would make more implants - even +20 ones...
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.03 17:25:00 -
[422]
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 03/07/2010 17:32:39
Originally by: Riedle
I have invested alot of time in them and still want to see them gone. Know why?
Because having them in is bad for the new player experience and I want this game to grow. It's not about what's best for me, its about what's best for the game.
They will need to reimburse the skillpoints somehow to make it 'fair' to the vets (like me) but thats not my main impetuous for wanting them gone. It's so we get more people playing this fantastic game.
Learning skills add nothing to game play and their remoaval improves the new player experience and we have more new players then we should ALL be on board with getting rid of them.
Also, It's Fan Fest and furthermore the link was already posted.
Many are selling this as some altruistic concern for new players and just conveniently forget the aspect of training alts. Most characters in the game are alts and the proposed change would mean a huge benefit for us veterans who are now training up alts, including me.
You want an alt with a certain capability but don't plan on training it further. Then you should train learning skills to some level, but how far is matter of planning and can be a tricky decision. Maybe you want to enhance the alt in the future. The fact that you have to sacrifice some training efficiency to get the huge utility of having alts, is a good thing imo.
As a veteran player who now are training alts I would very much benefit from the suggested changes. Not only with a lot of SP to redistribute, training my alts will also be a lot more efficient.
If all this recent learning skill hysteria really is about the new players, then a much more directed change would be better. Give them a higher ceiling for accelerated training time, or similar changes.
The main argument used is that learning skills does not bring any intangible benefit to the game. They are just a waste of time and an unnecessary barrier for new players. I say, that with a minimal ability to see a broader picture than what is just directly in front of your nose, you should see that learning skills means a progress in every beneficial skill you yet have to train. So training a specific skill means a specific progress, training learning skills means progress in all areas. To single out learning skills and say that they are such a poor game design is a charade. The whole skill system have just one big feature - getting skills takes time. That is all there is to it.
For example, what intangible benefit does training time multipliers bring to the game? Their only function is to make sure that you have to wait three weeks to finish that skill instead of a few days, i.e. they are there only to provide a time-barrier, nothing more. The training time multipliers on all the must-have skills are barrier to new players to make sure they have to wait a long time before they can do the same stuff as more seasoned players. Same arguments can be used on every aspect of the skill system. The whole system puts new players at a disadvantage.
I think CCP probably are aware of this which may be a major reason why they are reluctant to make any changes.
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Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.03 17:33:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Jack Icegaard Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 03/07/2010 17:32:39
Originally by: Riedle
I have invested alot of time in them and still want to see them gone. Know why?
Because having them in is bad for the new player experience and I want this game to grow. It's not about what's best for me, its about what's best for the game.
They will need to reimburse the skillpoints somehow to make it 'fair' to the vets (like me) but thats not my main impetuous for wanting them gone. It's so we get more people playing this fantastic game.
Learning skills add nothing to game play and their remoaval improves the new player experience and we have more new players then we should ALL be on board with getting rid of them.
Also, It's Fan Fest and furthermore the link was already posted.
Many are selling this as some altruistic concern for new players and just conveniently forget the aspect of training alts. Most characters in the game are alts and the proposed change would mean a huge benefit for us veterans who are now training up alts, including me.
You want an alt with a certain capability but don't plan on training it further. Then you should train learning skills to some level, but how far is matter of planning and can be a tricky decision. Maybe you want to enhance the alt in the future. The fact that you have to sacrifice some training efficiency to get the huge utility of having alts, is a good thing imo.
As a veteran player who now are training alts I would very much benefit from the suggested changes. Not only with a lot of SP to redistribute, training my alts will also be a lot more efficient.
If all this recent learning skill hysteria really is about the new players, then a much more directed change would be better. Give them a higher ceiling for accelerated training time, or similar changes.
The main argument used is that learning skills does not bring any intangible benefit to the game. They are just a waste of time and an unnecessary barrier for new players. I say, that with a minimal ability to see a broader picture than what is just directly in front of your nose, you should see that learning skills means a progress in every beneficial skill you yet have to train. So training a specific skill means a specific progress, training learning skills means progress in all areas. To single out learning skills and say that they are such a poor game design is a charade. The whole skill system have just one big feature - getting skills takes time. That is all there is to it.
For example, what intangible benefit does training time multipliers bring to the game? Their only function is to make sure that you have to wait three weeks to finish that skill instead of a few days, i.e. they are there only to provide a time-barrier, nothing more. The training time multipliers on all the must-have skills are barrier to new players to make sure they have to wait a long time before they can do the same stuff as more seasoned players. Same arguments can be used on every aspect of the skill system. The whole system puts new players at a disadvantage.
I think CCP probably are aware of this which may be a major reason why they are reluctant to make any changes.
there is too much logic in this post. i hereby forbid you from ever posting here again, lest you wish to be fed to the ginger magician. i actually fly amarr |
Redpoppy
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Posted - 2010.07.03 17:40:00 -
[424]
Hence why this false crusade is about a much larger crusade to McDonald-ize EVE in order to "Save" it. In the end the change would not bring the salvation hoped, and would doom the existing game.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.03 18:56:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Riedle
I don't see anyone whining. People are agreeing that learning skills were and are a mistake to implement in the game and discussing the best way to remove them. You on the otherhand insist on calling people names with whom you disagree. And then you present yourself as the hardened vet (lol) telling people to go back to WOW.
Really, it seems you have no argument at all - or maybe you are unaware on how to articulate one correctly.
You're stupidity overwhelms. I'm not sure what else you could call these threads other than whining. Some people are agreeing that learning skills are a mistake. I don't think that but I actually gave a solution that I would be satisfied with if the skills were removed. Yet, I'm still just calling people names right? Maybe you should comment on my idea instead of continuing to beg for free things. I still haven't seen an argument from you other than "Hey these skills are really annoying and should be taken out of the game so people don't have to train them. Oh wait, their effects are good though so just give us those for free." Or maybe you are just unaware how to articulate your argument correctly. The crying and whining sometimes gets in the way.
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.03 19:01:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Riedle
I don't see anyone whining. People are agreeing that learning skills were and are a mistake to implement in the game and discussing the best way to remove them. You on the otherhand insist on calling people names with whom you disagree. And then you present yourself as the hardened vet (lol) telling people to go back to WOW.
Really, it seems you have no argument at all - or maybe you are unaware on how to articulate one correctly.
You're stupidity overwhelms.
You're irony overwhelms.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.03 19:04:00 -
[427]
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 03/07/2010 19:04:00
Originally by: SammyullJackson
You're irony overwhelms.
haha totally. It's early, give me a break.
That's actually the first time I have ever done that
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.03 19:06:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
The main argument used is that learning skills does not bring any intangible benefit to the game. They are just a waste of time and an unnecessary barrier for new players.
When's the best time to train the learning skills? Immediately, in order to take advantage of the accelerated training bonus and the first (of the two) remaps.
Without the training bonus and if there was only one free remap, then it wouldn't be a big deal to train the learning skills in small doses or otherwise on an as needed basis.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.03 20:18:00 -
[429]
Edited by: Mathias Black on 03/07/2010 20:20:08
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
"Everyone who disagrees with me should go play WoW!"
All I'm saying is that if you like free stuff this much (you obviously do), wow is where you want to be. Or craigslist.
Man, and right after I just posted that you keep flipping between saying I want free stuff and then pretending you didn't say it when I tell you I already have the Learning skills. I'm not sure if that makes you a terrible troll, or if the awfulness of your trolling somehow circles around the trollometer and goes back into decent trolling levels. I guess I did reply, so you are a pretty decent troll after all. Congrats! I think I have to leave this thread now before my faith in humanity is totally destroyed.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.03 20:23:00 -
[430]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
The main argument used is that learning skills does not bring any intangible benefit to the game. They are just a waste of time and an unnecessary barrier for new players.
When's the best time to train the learning skills? Immediately, in order to take advantage of the accelerated training bonus and the first (of the two) remaps.
Without the training bonus and if there was only one free remap, then it wouldn't be a big deal to train the learning skills in small doses or otherwise on an as needed basis.
Accelerated training have no bearing on how many SP you lose by training other skills in-between the learning skills. From a pure max-SP perspective, the optimal thing is to train all the learning skills first of course. IIRC, I trained to 5/4 in learning during the first 6 month. After about a year I went 5/5 on my main (except charisma). So I could have a few more SP with a faster rout. Its really not a big deal.
I started before all improvements to new character:Very little SP (about 80k SP) no accelerated training, no remaps, and no training queue. I think all those changes that came later were good.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.03 20:50:00 -
[431]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Man, and right after I just posted that you keep flipping between saying I want free stuff and then pretending you didn't say it when I tell you I already have the Learning skills. I'm not sure if that makes you a terrible troll, or if the awfulness of your trolling somehow circles around the trollometer and goes back into decent trolling levels. I guess I did reply, so you are a pretty decent troll after all. Congrats! I think I have to leave this thread now before my faith in humanity is totally destroyed.
How is this so difficult to understand? You want something for nothing. That is the definition of free stuff. Maybe you don't want it for you (I'm dubious about that) but you want it for all the noobs and everyone else. Regardless of who gets the free stuff and who benefits from it, you are arguing to give it out. I haven't been pretending about anything. I think you are the one in pretend lala land if you don't think you are arguing to give free stuff out.
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Zelda Wei
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Posted - 2010.07.03 21:03:00 -
[432]
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.03 21:38:00 -
[433]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
How is this so difficult to understand? You want something for nothing. That is the definition of free stuff.
Can I have some free stuff too? I like free stuff.
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.03 23:51:00 -
[434]
Edited by: Riedle on 03/07/2010 23:53:06
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
The main argument used is that learning skills does not bring any intangible benefit to the game. They are just a waste of time and an unnecessary barrier for new players.
When's the best time to train the learning skills? Immediately, in order to take advantage of the accelerated training bonus and the first (of the two) remaps.
Without the training bonus and if there was only one free remap, then it wouldn't be a big deal to train the learning skills in small doses or otherwise on an as needed basis.
Exactly - In fact alot of people use a remap just to burn through the learning skills and any other like minded skills. It's stupid. They add nothing to the game and tare probably have something to do with the low trial to subscription rate that EVE has. I think EVE is doing great as a game, but it could do better and getting rid of these "skills" would be one thing that they could do.
The people here arguing about retaining these "skillds" are either trolling or just like to be disagreeable and argue about it. There is no logical reason to keep learning skills. NONE.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.03 23:58:00 -
[435]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 03/07/2010 23:59:34
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Felix Esperium
How is this so difficult to understand? You want something for nothing. That is the definition of free stuff.
Can I have some free stuff too? I like free stuff.
Me too!
I wonder how many people have trashed their Primae because they don't like free stuff. Or refuse to use their 100k free SP because it's free and they have done nothing to deserve it other than endure some extra downtime - to which they should be used to by now.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.04 01:27:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Accelerated training have no bearing on how many SP you lose by training other skills in-between the learning skills.
Not relevant. The concern is time, not skill points. Specifically, the two remaps and accelerated training time encourages anyone with half a brain to spend a character's first month or longer on the learning skills.
I'm going to go out on a limb and speak for the entire gaming industry and say most industry insiders would consider it bad form to highly encourage newbies to spend their first month of game time on the most boring aspect of the game.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.04 01:47:00 -
[437]
Quote: You just want free stuff!
It's not really winning the lottery if everybody wins it.
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.04 02:03:00 -
[438]
Edited by: Arkanor on 04/07/2010 02:04:01
Originally by: Riedle
Exactly - In fact alot of people use a remap just to burn through the learning skills and any other like minded skills. It's stupid. They add nothing to the game and tare probably have something to do with the low trial to subscription rate that EVE has. I think EVE is doing great as a game, but it could do better and getting rid of these "skills" would be one thing that they could do.
Honestly, it's annoying when I have a friend who might be interested in this game, and then I have to tell them "Hey, if you don't want to end up with a gimped character, you should basically throw your first month at these "learning" skills that help you skill skills faster, by the way you won't be able to really do anything productive in the game, beyond fly the basic frigates."
It's incredibly off-putting to new players and has no reason to exist, it's a pointless, wasteful time sink that does nothing for players. The new players getting into the game should be skilling up their guns/mining to fly their frigates effectively, and be able to bridge into cruiser sooner without having gimped stats. We're not talking about just giving away battleships and titans here, but doing away with a system that only penalizes new players who haven't grasped all the concepts yet. People training alts already know you need to grind the learnings first to optimize your character.
I don't see why people are against this, besides being bitter from having to do it themselves, and thinking it somehow adds "character" to the game, don't be ridiculous.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.04 02:33:00 -
[439]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Accelerated training have no bearing on how many SP you lose by training other skills in-between the learning skills.
Not relevant. The concern is time, not skill points. Specifically, the two remaps and accelerated training time encourages anyone with half a brain to spend a character's first month or longer on the learning skills.
I'm going to go out on a limb and speak for the entire gaming industry and say most industry insiders would consider it bad form to highly encourage newbies to spend their first month of game time on the most boring aspect of the game.
Ok, shortening the time-frame of the boot camp, so to speak. Well, that's an aspect of the accelerated training that I have not given much thought, to be perfectly honest. I guess i just have to concede that you raise a valid concern.
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John Ellsworth
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.04 03:18:00 -
[440]
Edited by: John Ellsworth on 04/07/2010 03:24:04
Originally by: Erdiere
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...... Thus, there is ample room for the statement that "elite" learnign skills will benefit them more, since most of them already have the prerequisites to train them off the bat when they come out, while, say a new player, just gets more learning skills the they have to learn to be long term competitive.
And you see, this is the real point why it's the last thing to do. We dont WANT more "mandatory" skills which give you no direct benefit. If anything, we'd like to exterminate the damn things. ......
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=298143&page=3#81
That's Oveur saying they aren't hot for the learning skills, and not at a gun point on fanfest.
nice quote but I think this Gm is dead wrong,, why would people unsub after 7 months? Exploits , exploits , exploits ,, and IMHO only a (not to smart person) would point a finger at the learning skills even if the (not to smart person) is a GM..
It takes over 30 years to achieve level 5 on all skills in the game .. the learning skills are in proportion to that in the correct format .. This game is the #2 MMO on the market , the reason IMHO? the skills and how they are set up... the most awesome part of eve
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GalleMon
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Posted - 2010.07.04 03:32:00 -
[441]
learning skill will be removed?
when?
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.04 03:36:00 -
[442]
Originally by: John Ellsworth Edited by: John Ellsworth on 04/07/2010 03:24:04
Originally by: Erdiere
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...... Thus, there is ample room for the statement that "elite" learnign skills will benefit them more, since most of them already have the prerequisites to train them off the bat when they come out, while, say a new player, just gets more learning skills the they have to learn to be long term competitive.
And you see, this is the real point why it's the last thing to do. We dont WANT more "mandatory" skills which give you no direct benefit. If anything, we'd like to exterminate the damn things. ......
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=298143&page=3#81
That's Oveur saying they aren't hot for the learning skills, and not at a gun point on fanfest.
nice quote but I think this Gm is dead wrong,, why would people unsub after 7 months? Exploits , exploits , exploits ,, and IMHO only a (not to smart person) would point a finger at the learning skills even if the (not to smart person) is a GM..
It takes over 30 years to achieve level 5 on all skills in the game .. the learning skills are in proportion to that in the correct format .. This game is the #2 MMO on the market , the reason IMHO? the skills and how they are set up... the most awesome part of eve
Damn this GM Oveur were speaking out of turn. Bet the Executive Producer or someone were straightening him out afterwards.
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OSGOD
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Posted - 2010.07.04 07:57:00 -
[443]
Diezel haha will i get all my SP plus the compensation of ohh say 40 mill sp for the 3 years i have been playing ans trained my learning skills up early to get the benefit of all the sttribute points lol
go back to WOW you troll
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.04 09:57:00 -
[444]
Originally by: GalleMon learning skill will be removed?
when?
SoonÖ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Hemp Invader
EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.04 21:20:00 -
[445]
Come on guys, we almost made it to the 21st page to get a dev response...please keep pushing this thread of pure awesome
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.04 23:00:00 -
[446]
Originally by: Hemp Invader Come on guys, we almost made it to the 21st page to get a dev response...please keep pushing this thread of pure awesome
I'm sure they already have someone reading the responses. Some sort of feedback would be nice though.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.05 14:16:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Hemp Invader Come on guys, we almost made it to the 21st page to get a dev response...please keep pushing this thread of pure awesome
Yeah, they should ****ing stop keeping us in the dark. Either a yes or no.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.07.05 14:20:00 -
[448]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Yeah, they should ****ing stop keeping us in the dark. Either a yes or no.
Maybe. Sometime.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.05 17:23:00 -
[449]
Don't forget to support this thread:
[Proposal] Learning skills solution
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Redpoppy
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Posted - 2010.07.05 17:57:00 -
[450]
if LS get disappeared, does that make Cybernetics V more of a "must" ?
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Vee Raa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.05 18:30:00 -
[451]
Why oh why has everything to run at 100% efficiency ?? Look into RL how this behaviour will ruin the fun for almost everyone. Optimize, concentrate, lets fusion these companies for some %'s more profit ...
Now you start to transport this s**t into a game.
When you have a problem learning your skills slower than other ppl that trained up to V, you might have a problem, which is not related with the game itself.
Greed, jealousy and such comes to mind.
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.05 18:44:00 -
[452]
Originally by: GalleMon learning skill will be removed?
when?
Never. This entire thread is baseless speculation, and CCP has said that themselves. What CCP has NOT said, is anything about removing learning skills in the near future, and those touting it are speculatory re-tards who haven't a clue.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.07.05 19:47:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Redpoppy if LS get disappeared, does that make Cybernetics V more of a "must" ?
Not really. Most players can't afford +5s anyway, and those that do won't always be willing to risk using them.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.05 19:50:00 -
[454]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 05/07/2010 19:50:21
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: GalleMon learning skill will be removed?
when?
Never. This entire thread is baseless speculation, and CCP has said that themselves. What CCP has NOT said, is anything about removing learning skills in the near future, and those touting it are speculatory re-tards who haven't a clue.
Afraid posting this bull**** which makes no sense with your main?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.05 21:30:00 -
[455]
As much speculating that CCP will remove the Learning skills, the greater speculation is CCP will then grant everyone +10 per attribute stat...
I have yet to see anything from CCP claiming that route.
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.05 23:11:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 05/07/2010 19:50:21
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: GalleMon learning skill will be removed?
when?
Never. This entire thread is baseless speculation, and CCP has said that themselves. What CCP has NOT said, is anything about removing learning skills in the near future, and those touting it are speculatory re-tards who haven't a clue.
Afraid posting this bull**** which makes no sense with your main?
This IS MY MAIN! Also, what about it doesn't make sense? It's true! This entire "LEARNING SKILLS ARE GOING AWAY!" Crap is based ENTIRELY on speculation, yet alot of you are talking about this as if it is a done deal, set in stone, and it isn't; CCP has said nothing, and infact just locked another thread on this topic calling it baseless speculation, and it is. I am bashing my head against the keyboard at the stupidity I see displayed here. How so many of you can go from "CCP: Were giving you SP for downtime"
to "OMG! they are gonna sell SP! OMG! learning skills are gones! OMG microtransactions" is beyond me! It's stupid, its baseless and has no merit in reality.
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Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.07.05 23:50:00 -
[457]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Redpoppy if LS get disappeared, does that make Cybernetics V more of a "must" ?
Not really. Most players can't afford +5s anyway, and those that do won't always be willing to risk using them.
I'm waiting for thread "I can't afford them so they should be removed".
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.06 01:39:00 -
[458]
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 06/07/2010 01:46:23
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 05/07/2010 19:50:21
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: GalleMon learning skill will be removed?
when?
Never. This entire thread is baseless speculation, and CCP has said that themselves. What CCP has NOT said, is anything about removing learning skills in the near future, and those touting it are speculatory re-tards who haven't a clue.
Afraid posting this bull**** which makes no sense with your main?
This IS MY MAIN! Also, what about it doesn't make sense? It's true! This entire "LEARNING SKILLS ARE GOING AWAY!" Crap is based ENTIRELY on speculation, yet alot of you are talking about this as if it is a done deal, set in stone, and it isn't; CCP has said nothing, and infact just locked another thread on this topic calling it baseless speculation, and it is. I am bashing my head against the keyboard at the stupidity I see displayed here. How so many of you can go from "CCP: Were giving you SP for downtime"
to "OMG! they are gonna sell SP! OMG! learning skills are gones! OMG microtransactions" is beyond me! It's stupid, its baseless and has no merit in reality.
I think the way the OP was worded as well as many posts in this and similar threads, are attempts to manipulate CCP. The idea is to try to "handcuff" CCP by presenting this as a ôdone dealö, thereby seed expectations in the playerbase that CCP eventually will cave-in to. They also tries to present this as something that the playerbase unanimously stands behind by posting near identical suggestions in three sub-forums and then try to silence those arguing against it. For example, In the Assembly Hall thread, arguments against the proposition were frequently met with complaints of being off topic, with the motivation that the proposition, or some variation there of, is something that ôwill happenö.
The whole thing has been really interesting to follow :)
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Takseen
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 12:32:00 -
[459]
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Redpoppy if LS get disappeared, does that make Cybernetics V more of a "must" ?
Not really. Most players can't afford +5s anyway, and those that do won't always be willing to risk using them.
I'm waiting for thread "I can't afford them so they should be removed".
Haven't seen one yet, or atleast not one that's spawned 10+ page threads on 3 different forums :) |
stoicfaux
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 18:01:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
I'm waiting for thread "I can't afford them so they should be removed".
Actually, the removing attribute implants argument goes like this: "Attribute implants are too expensive to replace, therefore no one ever PvPs in them and since Eve is a PvP game, anything the hinders PvP should be removed. Using an empty jump clone to PvP in isn't an option because I'll lose training time."
But let's not digress.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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1Ekrid1
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Posted - 2010.07.06 18:22:00 -
[461]
Learning skills will be closed at the same time as Wormholes. suck on that adida. Anyone send me a mail in game for the alt of applebabe? I have some hunting to do.
NEW! now I want an eve mail of Adida's alt. |
Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.06 19:57:00 -
[462]
I have been getting nothing but positive responses from my friends about this possibility. Learning skills has been a barrier to me getting them to give Eve a serious try.
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randomname4me
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 20:41:00 -
[463]
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes I have been getting nothing but positive responses from my friends about this possibility. Learning skills has been a barrier to me getting them to give Eve a serious try.
Let me guess, You told them they would have to train a months worth of learning skills before they could have any real fun. Your fault not the skills fault.
Petition|Successful|Reimbursement|Lag Pick 3 |
democrities
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 20:50:00 -
[464]
to the moderator: shouldn't this entire thread be locked? As it, just as many of the other threads, is nothing more then rumors and speculation presented as if they were fact without so much as an official statement on the part of CCP.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.06 20:56:00 -
[465]
It is clear from the video that Devs perceive the biggest obstacle to this change would be a negative reaction from players.
The thread shows an overwhelming positive reaction.
I think we can look forward to the learning skills mistake being fixed soon rather than later.
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AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.06 21:15:00 -
[466]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
It is clear from the video that Devs perceive the biggest obstacle to this change would be a negative reaction from players.
The thread shows an overwhelming positive reaction.
I think we can look forward to the learning skills mistake being fixed soon rather than later.
LOL
You must have trained "dellusional self-entitlement" to level 5 ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 21:19:00 -
[467]
Originally by: randomname4me
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes I have been getting nothing but positive responses from my friends about this possibility. Learning skills has been a barrier to me getting them to give Eve a serious try.
Let me guess, You told them they would have to train a months worth of learning skills before they could have any real fun. Your fault not the skills fault.
Well would you expect the guy to lie to his friends?
Unless you want to end up with a gimped character overall, this is exactly what you need to do. |
Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.06 21:28:00 -
[468]
Originally by: democrities to the moderator: shouldn't this entire thread be locked? As it, just as many of the other threads, is nothing more then rumors and speculation presented as if they were fact without so much as an official statement on the part of CCP.
I have speculated once in this thread that I am fairly sure that DEVs are already in this thread
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Miilla
|
Posted - 2010.07.06 21:30:00 -
[469]
can we lock these learning skill threads as RUMOURS?
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Herodion Detlef
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Posted - 2010.07.06 21:32:00 -
[470]
There is a really simple way to fix the learning skill problem. 1.) Payers are not allowed to train basic learning skills until after the first 4 months of their character's age are past. 2.) Players are not allowed to train advanced learning skills until after the first 12 months of their character's age are past.
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Usul Atreides
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Posted - 2010.07.06 22:29:00 -
[471]
I think CCP have had all the encouragement they need to remove learning skills now. |
Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.06 23:31:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Usul Atreides I think CCP have had all the encouragement they need to remove learning skills now.
Yes, please remove them CCP and do NOT give everyone any attributes bonuses either.
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FarmerCounter
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 00:22:00 -
[473]
Reduce the SP needed for basic learning skills, greatly. Bonus all chars with this part of SP.
Keep the advanced learning skills.
Slightly speed learning for whose below 5m.
I think there is an unnoticeable threshold for new players to enjoy the game.
But anyway all of those ideas are based on groundless suspetions from the recent SP reimbursement.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.07 00:44:00 -
[474]
Originally by: CCP Fallout Hello all,
I know many of you are enjoying yourselves today, posting baseless rumors about features of the game. While they may humor you, they are causing discord amongst the community, are considered trolling, and are not welcomed on our forums.
Please note that continued rumor threads may result in official warnings against your forum account and can result in the temporary or permanent removal of your posting privileges.
I'd hope that you'd all had your fun, but please keep in mind that trolling is prohibited.
Why is this thread still open? *tinfoil hat*
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.07 03:33:00 -
[475]
Originally by: randomname4me
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes I have been getting nothing but positive responses from my friends about this possibility. Learning skills has been a barrier to me getting them to give Eve a serious try.
Let me guess, You told them they would have to train a months worth of learning skills before they could have any real fun. Your fault not the skills fault.
And you would guess wrong. They found the learning skills quickly enough after I got a couple of them to try a trial account. The skills speak for themselves. What is it about the people in favor of keeping learning skills that makes them think that new players are unable to understand learning skills on their own.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.07 10:31:00 -
[476]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: CCP Fallout Hello all,
I know many of you are enjoying yourselves today, posting baseless rumors about features of the game. While they may humor you, they are causing discord amongst the community, are considered trolling, and are not welcomed on our forums.
Please note that continued rumor threads may result in official warnings against your forum account and can result in the temporary or permanent removal of your posting privileges.
I'd hope that you'd all had your fun, but please keep in mind that trolling is prohibited.
Why is this thread still open? *tinfoil hat*
Because it's the truth. CCP is just watching the few threads about learnings remooval. Over 90% of all posters agree, so we can be pretty sure about the removal.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.07 10:45:00 -
[477]
Originally by: Jasdemi Because it's the truth. CCP is just watching the few threads about learnings remooval. Over 90% of all posters agree, so we can be pretty sure about the removal.
Yes CCP, please remove the Learning skills and do NOT grant anyone any bonus attribute points.
People will then train at a slower rate which equals more real life time spent on skills.
More real life time equals longer subscription requirements.
Longer subscription requirements equals more profit for CCP!
Go for it CCP!!!
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.07 15:43:00 -
[478]
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Jasdemi Because it's the truth. CCP is just watching the few threads about learnings remooval. Over 90% of all posters agree, so we can be pretty sure about the removal.
Yes CCP, please remove the Learning skills and do NOT grant anyone any bonus attribute points.
People will then train at a slower rate which equals more real life time spent on skills.
More real life time equals longer subscription requirements.
Longer subscription requirements equals more profit for CCP!
Go for it CCP!!!
Another angry vet!
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.07.07 16:16:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Another angry vet!
Another angry ADHD kid...
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.07.07 16:21:00 -
[480]
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Originally by: Jasdemi
Another angry vet!
Another angry ADHD kid...
I'm a vet, does that make me angry?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.07 16:44:00 -
[481]
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Originally by: Jasdemi
Another angry vet!
Another angry ADHD kid...
I'm a vet, does that make me angry?
Yes, you vets are grumpy old vets who complain about everything.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:09:00 -
[482]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Originally by: Jasdemi
Another angry vet!
Another angry ADHD kid...
I'm a vet, does that make me angry?
Yes, you vets are grumpy old vets who complain about everything.
Like, learning skills?
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democrities
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 17:38:00 -
[483]
Why is it that the mods have closed every other rumor thread except this one????
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:40:00 -
[484]
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Like, learning skills?
Yeah. Although the vets who maxed their learnings are the real winners, they still complain. I don't get what going on in their addicted, possibly mentally disturbed heads.
Originally by: democrities Why is it that the mods have closed every other rumor thread except this one????
Because it's not a rumor. A dev confirmed the removal of learnings at fanfest '09. The SP reimbursement system was developed just for this purpose.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
democrities
|
Posted - 2010.07.07 17:45:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Jasdemi Because it's the truth. CCP is just watching the few threads about learnings remooval. Over 90% of all posters agree, so we can be pretty sure about the removal.
Yes CCP, please remove the Learning skills and do NOT grant anyone any bonus attribute points.
People will then train at a slower rate which equals more real life time spent on skills.
More real life time equals longer subscription requirements.
Longer subscription requirements equals more profit for CCP!
Go for it CCP!!!
Screw you guttripper, I trained learning skills, and as a rather new player why should I get screwed over because something you said? no bonuses even if they remove the skills? So all that was for not?
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:53:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Like, learning skills?
Yeah. Although the vets who maxed their learnings are the real winners, they still complain. I don't get what going on in their addicted, possibly mentally disturbed heads.
Originally by: democrities Why is it that the mods have closed every other rumor thread except this one????
Because it's not a rumor. A dev confirmed the removal of learnings at fanfest '09. The SP reimbursement system was developed just for this purpose.
WRONG, a dev said they didnt like learning skills. They didnt lay anything definitive out as to its removal. HENCE its a RUMOR Secondly, BULL! They developed the ability to reimburse SP to refund us SP for the downtime, in their own words. NOWHERE Did CCP say "We developed the ability to reimburse SP specifically to facilitate removal of learning skills" NO WHERE.
Ergo, as CCP has not said anything definitive, its a rumor! 09 "We dont like learning skills" isnt = were removing learning skills.
If I say "I dont like my job" that doesnt = "Im going to quit my job"
Theres a difference. Ergo, this is still RUMOR.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:54:00 -
[487]
Originally by: democrities Why is it that the mods have closed every other rumor thread except this one????
Because the best arguments in this thread, for the removal of the learning skills, were made by DEV alts
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.07.07 18:19:00 -
[488]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Yeah. Although the vets who maxed their learnings are the real winners, they still complain.
No, not really. 3-4 months ago I finally maxed learning skills on 3 accounts/characters. I could train other skills, sure, but I like long term investments. It would take ~2 years to benefit from these maxed learnings. Now, let's talk in 2012.
Originally by: Jasdemi
I don't get what going on in their addicted, possibly mentally disturbed heads.
Watch your tongue. Take a deep breath. Go for a walk maybe. It's friendly advice.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:14:00 -
[489]
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Originally by: Jasdemi
Yeah. Although the vets who maxed their learnings are the real winners, they still complain.
No, not really. 3-4 months ago I finally maxed learning skills on 3 accounts/characters. I could train other skills, sure, but I like long term investments. It would take ~2 years to benefit from these maxed learnings. Now, let's talk in 2012.
Originally by: Jasdemi
I don't get what going on in their addicted, possibly mentally disturbed heads.
Watch your tongue. Take a deep breath. Go for a walk maybe. It's friendly advice.
If they refund the learning skills points then any character with them train gets a positive return in other point areas from training them. The benefit time is how long it takes you to gain additional points in other areas for the points spent in learning skills. If you are able to refund those learning skills every skill point you gained since you trained them becomes extra points on top of what other people have. If you finished the skill yesterday or 4 years ago every extra skill point is nothing but pure benefit.
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Llyandrian
Amarr Livestock Science Exchange
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Posted - 2010.07.08 08:41:00 -
[490]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Because it's the truth. CCP is just watching the few threads about learnings remooval. Over 90% of all posters agree, so we can be pretty sure about the removal.
+1
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AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.08 08:44:00 -
[491]
Originally by: Llyandrian
Originally by: Jasdemi
Because it's the truth. CCP is just watching the few threads about learnings remooval. Over 90% of all posters agree, so we can be pretty sure about the removal.
+1
-10
Lying won't help your lost cause...but keep whining, while I train with maxed learning skills ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.08 08:58:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Originally by: Jasdemi
Yeah. Although the vets who maxed their learnings are the real winners, they still complain.
No, not really. 3-4 months ago I finally maxed learning skills on 3 accounts/characters. I could train other skills, sure, but I like long term investments. It would take ~2 years to benefit from these maxed learnings. Now, let's talk in 2012.
No. You have benefited by accelerated training for 3-4 months. It takes around 2 years to profit i.e. get back all your SP investment and more. Assuming that learning is removed and those SP are pooled you get your investment back early. You have still had the benefit over those that didn't invest for 3-4 months. You have benefited less than anybody that invested in learning earlier.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.08 09:29:00 -
[493]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 08/07/2010 09:29:34 Too bad this forum doesn't allow polls *shrug*
I <3 polls
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K'ven
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Posted - 2010.07.08 10:46:00 -
[494]
why... won't.... you..... die!!!
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Miilla
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 10:58:00 -
[495]
Edited by: Miilla on 08/07/2010 10:59:01 This is the reason I stopped training learning and didnt pump my free SP into them.
Are they staying or not? CCP should respond to this RUMOUR.
I have mine at 5 and 4 mostly anyuway.
What about attribute implants? do they remain?
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Hemp Invader
EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.08 11:35:00 -
[496]
Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 08/07/2010 10:59:01 Are they staying or not? CCP should respond to this RUMOUR.
CCP can't respond yet, it's not the 21st page!
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Temporal Mechanics
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Posted - 2010.07.08 11:42:00 -
[497]
I heard from a VERY reliable source that the Learning Skills will be going away...
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.07.08 12:31:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Mag's I'm a vet, does that make me angry?
Yes, you vets are grumpy old vets who complain about everything.
I hate it when I complain, without even knowing it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.08 13:48:00 -
[499]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 08/07/2010 13:48:15
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Llyandrian
Originally by: Jasdemi
Because it's the truth. CCP is just watching the few threads about learnings remooval. Over 90% of all posters agree, so we can be pretty sure about the removal.
+1
-10
Lying won't help your lost cause...but keep whining, while I train with maxed learning skills ;)
All my learnings except charisma are maxed, so I don't really care if they decide NOT to remove the learnings. However few of my friends aren't dumb as me to pay few months subs for for practically nothing. They would probably give it another try.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.08 14:27:00 -
[500]
Removing the learning skills, and compensating people who trained them, would remove one of the major hurdles that new players face when trying to get into the game. ---
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Flynn Fetladral
BlackSite Prophecy
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:05:00 -
[501]
Yeah, I see so many people who join EVE and don't train up learning skills first, it's certainly not something which is obvious to new players unless you join a corp off the bat and someone basically tells you. It's an obstacle to new players just getting into the game. Avoid training them off the bat via ignorance or choice and be plagued by low SP/HR and a longer period of time to get the skills up. Or train them up and have to put more useful skills which help you actually do the enjoyable stuff in EVE.
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Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 18:45:00 -
[502]
Up!
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Ardetia
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 18:52:00 -
[503]
Originally by: K'ven why... won't.... you..... die!!!
haha, agreed! remove learning skills! i will shower ccp with money if they would just throw them away :( ok, so im exaggerating 3%
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rowbin hod
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2010.07.08 19:07:00 -
[504]
Edited by: rowbin hod on 08/07/2010 19:07:34
Originally by: democrities
They developed the ability to reimburse SP to refund us SP for the downtime, in their own words.
I must have missed this. Can you point me to that specific quote please?
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.08 20:37:00 -
[505]
Originally by: rowbin hod Edited by: rowbin hod on 08/07/2010 19:07:34
Originally by: democrities
They developed the ability to reimburse SP to refund us SP for the downtime, in their own words.
I must have missed this. Can you point me to that specific quote please?
Read the dev blog much?
Seriously this whole thing was about SP for long downtime. Why? It saves them money.
This whole learning skills crap is SPECULATION and RUMOR (you know, mods, the type of rumors you said wouldn't be welcome on the board)
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.08 20:54:00 -
[506]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 08/07/2010 20:54:34
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: rowbin hod Edited by: rowbin hod on 08/07/2010 19:07:34
Originally by: democrities
They developed the ability to reimburse SP to refund us SP for the downtime, in their own words.
I must have missed this. Can you point me to that specific quote please?
Read the dev blog much?
Seriously this whole thing was about SP for long downtime. Why? It saves them money.
This whole learning skills crap is SPECULATION and RUMOR (you know, mods, the type of rumors you said wouldn't be welcome on the board)
So they coded this feature just for this downtime? LMAO! If they wanted to give us SP, they could just give us 100% speed training bonus for 30 hours and not bother implementing this feature. If it was just a RUMOR, the mods could've closed the couple threads about learnings removal before they could even reach page two.
I really hope that you weren't serious about saying that they implemented this system just to give players 100k SP for the 30 hours downtime. It's pretty safe that learnings will be removed, the method is not set yet though.
You sir, are allowed to use your brain a little bit. God gave you this wonderful tool, use it!
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.08 20:55:00 -
[507]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: rowbin hod Edited by: rowbin hod on 08/07/2010 19:07:34
Originally by: democrities
They developed the ability to reimburse SP to refund us SP for the downtime, in their own words.
I must have missed this. Can you point me to that specific quote please?
Read the dev blog much?
Seriously this whole thing was about SP for long downtime. Why? It saves them money.
This whole learning skills crap is SPECULATION and RUMOR (you know, mods, the type of rumors you said wouldn't be welcome on the board)
So they coded this feature just for this downtime? LMAO! If they wanted to give us 100% speed training bonus for 30 hours and not bother implementing this feature. If it was just a RUMOR, the mods could've closed the couple threads about learnings removal before they could even reach page two.
I really hope that you weren't serious about saying that they implemented this system just to give players 100k SP for the 30 hours downtime. It's pretty safe that learnings will be removed, the method is not set yet though.
You sir, are allowed to use your brain a little bit. God gave you this wonderful tool, use it!
No, use your brain a little. This was about money. Now instead of cash, if there is an extra long downtime they can simply refund you SP. This was done to save money.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.08 21:00:00 -
[508]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 08/07/2010 21:01:40
Originally by: democrities
No, use your brain a little. This was about money. Now instead of cash, if there is an extra long downtime they can simply refund you SP. This was done to save money.
Yeah, to save money they wasted developers hours to develop this feature. Dude, did you ever visit school? Stop blabbering bullcrap.
Giving players 100% training speed bonus for 30 hours would be much less time consuming.
Adding this SP reimbursement feature is the first step to reimburse SP for learnings, which will be removed in the near future.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Captain Megadeath
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Posted - 2010.07.08 21:04:00 -
[509]
Originally by: Jasdemi Stop blabbering bullcrap.
Pot... Kettle..... Black.....
But hey, keep the speculation up. You plea for wanting rewards for free is fun.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine
Yeah, Katie Door perhaps...... lol
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Dusica
Amarr
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 21:30:00 -
[510]
This would be ultra cool and made of win ... if it was true... :( Eternal Will. |
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.08 21:31:00 -
[511]
As I'm sure most people realize, the ability to reimburse SP can come in handy in many situations in the future when the server, or induvidual accounts, have not been available for the playerbase of various reasons. It is entirely possible that this has no bearing on learning skills at all.
It is of course also possible to use this new mechanics for other tasks such as to give back SP for skills that CCP may want to omit from the game. Claims that this will happen is of course pure speculation until CCP explicitly states that this is what they will do.
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.07.08 21:32:00 -
[512]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities Why is it that the mods have closed every other rumor thread except this one????
Because it's not a rumor. A dev confirmed the removal of learnings at fanfest '09. The SP reimbursement system was developed just for this purpose.
As long as their is no official announcement, devblog, or something, it pretty much counts as rumor.
Item DB | Sigs
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.08 23:03:00 -
[513]
Originally by: democrities
No, use your brain a little. This was about money. Now instead of cash, if there is an extra long downtime they can simply refund you SP. This was done to save money.
Wait, wait... the devs gave you CASH last time there was a downtime?!! I must have not clicked the right button.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.08 23:07:00 -
[514]
The first option was to refund everyone some money (less than a dollar) for the downtime. The SP refund was seen as a better option. I just read this somewhere... csm thread maybe?
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Judge LearnedHand
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Posted - 2010.07.08 23:22:00 -
[515]
Originally by: Felix Esperium The first option was to refund everyone some money (less than a dollar) for the downtime. The SP refund was seen as a better option. I just read this somewhere... csm thread maybe?
I think you may have read it on Ankh's CSM blog.
http://eve-takecare.net/
"First, CCP consulted the CSM regarding the reimbursement for players due to the extended downtime. An option was to credit players their lost playtime, but in actual value that would just amount to < $1, thus an alternative was proposed. All players affected would be credited in skillpoints instead." Law student by day, DinoPark Tycoon by night. |
democrities
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 23:46:00 -
[516]
Originally by: Judge LearnedHand
Originally by: Felix Esperium The first option was to refund everyone some money (less than a dollar) for the downtime. The SP refund was seen as a better option. I just read this somewhere... csm thread maybe?
I think you may have read it on Ankh's CSM blog.
http://eve-takecare.net/
"First, CCP consulted the CSM regarding the reimbursement for players due to the extended downtime. An option was to credit players their lost playtime, but in actual value that would just amount to < $1, thus an alternative was proposed. All players affected would be credited in skillpoints instead."
See folks, right there in CCPs own words! It was about refunding money or SP! Thats why they invented the system. It didn't have ANYTHING to do with learning skills.
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AterraX
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:16:00 -
[517]
Originally by: Suitonia Removing the learning skills, and compensating people who trained them, would remove one of the major hurdles that new players face when trying to get into the game.
How would that be? Oh you mean you want the +10 to all attributes for free, don't you?!
I have all 11 learning skills maxed out (I like maxing out skills to L5).
Why would a mere redistribution of the 5.376.000 SP (and a refund of the isk used to buy the skills) make me happy...if you at the same time get the attribute bonus for free? I trained learning skills for a purpose...because after fiddling with EvE on the 2 weeks trial...I knew I would play this game for years to come. And I realized how stupid it would be for me not to plan ahead...think on the long run...and so I did. So I train allmost maxed (only have +4 implants) in at the moment...but that means that am getting the most for my "investment" in the long run. And every day I harvest the benefit of my investment...delicous SP at a very nice rate.
Only solution I would support is to remove the learning skills, but NOT give anyone who hadn't trained them the bouns.
Now that would make a lot of epic tears
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Mathias Black
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:23:00 -
[518]
Edited by: Mathias Black on 09/07/2010 00:24:58
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: Judge LearnedHand
Originally by: Felix Esperium The first option was to refund everyone some money (less than a dollar) for the downtime. The SP refund was seen as a better option. I just read this somewhere... csm thread maybe?
I think you may have read it on Ankh's CSM blog.
http://eve-takecare.net/
"First, CCP consulted the CSM regarding the reimbursement for players due to the extended downtime. An option was to credit players their lost playtime, but in actual value that would just amount to < $1, thus an alternative was proposed. All players affected would be credited in skillpoints instead."
See folks, right there in CCPs own words! It was about refunding money or SP! Thats why they invented the system. It didn't have ANYTHING to do with learning skills.
I think you're reading that wrong... it sounds like the CSM said they could credit play-time back, but they decided that since it was a pretty minimal amount of play-time, that the players would prefer skill points.
Also, CCP doesn't HAVE to give us anything for downtime and they know that; they never have given us anything before. Most MMO's don't credit time for downtime, WoW is an exception, not the norm. I doubt they feel a "need" to do this because they thought they'd otherwise "have" to credit time back to people for downtime. CCP is pretty epic at making their player base wait around for things; I can almost guarantee they have no fears that anyone is going to quit because of some non-refunded downtime.
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Mathias Black
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:30:00 -
[519]
Edited by: Mathias Black on 09/07/2010 00:30:52
Originally by: AterraX
I trained learning skills for a purpose...because after fiddling with EvE on the 2 weeks trial...I knew I would play this game for years to come. And I realized how stupid it would be for me not to plan ahead...think on the long run...and so I did. So I train allmost maxed (only have +4 implants) in at the moment...but that means that am getting the most for my "investment" in the long run. And every day I harvest the benefit of my investment...delicous SP at a very nice rate.
Wow, you really did that? You sure are smart, AND a great planner! WOW! I bet almost NO ONE in Eve has ever thought ahead like that, and if a few did, I bet none of them had the amazing passion and dedication you have to have put points into Learning! There must be thousands of long term players who are SO jealous of the super fast skill point rate you have compared to them! You few, you lucky few, who figured out that the Learning skills make you gain skills faster! Certainly there's no way that pretty much every single player in the whole game did the exact same thing, because your tactical reasoning is just OVER 9000!!!
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democrities
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:37:00 -
[520]
Originally by: Mathias Black Edited by: Mathias Black on 09/07/2010 00:24:58
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: Judge LearnedHand
Originally by: Felix Esperium The first option was to refund everyone some money (less than a dollar) for the downtime. The SP refund was seen as a better option. I just read this somewhere... csm thread maybe?
I think you may have read it on Ankh's CSM blog.
http://eve-takecare.net/
"First, CCP consulted the CSM regarding the reimbursement for players due to the extended downtime. An option was to credit players their lost playtime, but in actual value that would just amount to < $1, thus an alternative was proposed. All players affected would be credited in skillpoints instead."
See folks, right there in CCPs own words! It was about refunding money or SP! Thats why they invented the system. It didn't have ANYTHING to do with learning skills.
I think you're reading that wrong... it sounds like the CSM said they could credit play-time back, but they decided that since it was a pretty minimal amount of play-time, that the players would prefer skill points.
Also, CCP doesn't HAVE to give us anything for downtime and they know that; they never have given us anything before. Most MMO's don't credit time for downtime, WoW is an exception, not the norm. I doubt they feel a "need" to do this because they thought they'd otherwise "have" to credit time back to people for downtime. CCP is pretty epic at making their player base wait around for things; I can almost guarantee they have no fears that anyone is going to quit because of some non-refunded downtime.
Yes but that wasnt my point. I know they aren't obligated to, my objection was more towards those who insist that the only reason CCP created the ability to refund SP was to facilitate the removal of learning skills. That is groundless speculation and isn't based in reality, and won't be, until CCP says otherwise, because, if as some allege, they are planning to remove learning skills they will have to announce it, unless they just plan on us logging on one day and saying "Woah, the skills are gone!" Which I very much doubt.
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|
AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.09 00:38:00 -
[521]
Edited by: AterraX on 09/07/2010 00:38:35
Originally by: Mathias Black Edited by: Mathias Black on 09/07/2010 00:30:52
Originally by: AterraX
I trained learning skills for a purpose...because after fiddling with EvE on the 2 weeks trial...I knew I would play this game for years to come. And I realized how stupid it would be for me not to plan ahead...think on the long run...and so I did. So I train allmost maxed (only have +4 implants) in at the moment...but that means that am getting the most for my "investment" in the long run. And every day I harvest the benefit of my investment...delicous SP at a very nice rate.
Wow, you really did that? You sure are smart, AND a great planner! WOW! I bet almost NO ONE in Eve has ever thought ahead like that, and if a few did, I bet none of them had the amazing passion and dedication you have to have put points into Learning! There must be thousands of long term players who are SO jealous of the super fast skill point rate you have compared to them! You few, you lucky few, who figured out that the Learning skills make you gain skills faster! Certainly there's no way that pretty much every single player in the whole game did the exact same thing, because your tactical reasoning is just OVER 9000!!!
This thread is full of whiners who havn't maxed out their learning skills, are really jealous and butthurt about it and want the extra bonus for no effort at all.
Nice own goal...you got more? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.09 00:39:00 -
[522]
quick tell him he's not a ~special snowflake~
That will show him.
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Issaries Valran
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:54:00 -
[523]
Originally by: AterraX
This thread is full of whiners who have maxed out their learning skills, are really jealous and butthurt about it and want it to stay unchanged because they had to do it and want others go through the same pain they did.
Nice own goal...you got more?
Fixed for you.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.09 00:57:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Issaries Valran
Fixed for you.
You are not a ~special snowflake~
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AterraX
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:58:00 -
[525]
Originally by: Issaries Valran
Originally by: AterraX
This thread is full of whiners who have maxed out their learning skills, are really jealous and butthurt about it and want it to stay unchanged because they had to do it and want others go through the same pain they did.
Nice own goal...you got more?
Fixed for you.
Not really, it was no pain traning them..and now I don't have to worry about them any more...like my other L5 skills.
Once maxed out...out of mind.
You need to troll better to get me all worked up.
Especailly when Hulkageddon III just started ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Issaries Valran
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 01:01:00 -
[526]
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Issaries Valran
Originally by: AterraX
This thread is full of whiners who have maxed out their learning skills, are really jealous and butthurt about it and want it to stay unchanged because they had to do it and want others go through the same pain they did.
Nice own goal...you got more?
Fixed for you.
Not really, it was no pain traning them..and now I don't have to worry about them any more...like my other L5 skills.
Once maxed out...out of mind.
You need to troll better to get me all worked up.
Especailly when Hulkageddon III just started
I am not trolling so much as stating a truth. About the mind set of those that think learning skills are fine.
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AterraX
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 01:04:00 -
[527]
Originally by: Issaries Valran I am not trolling so much as stating a truth. About the mind set of those that think learning skills are fine.
Don't quit your dayjob...if you think trolling = absolute truth
All I see is whines about people wanting stuff (in this case: attribute bonusses) for free.
EvE is a sandbox game...you don't need to train learning skills....but they sure are nice.
Whine some more please...you amuse me ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
KaarBaak
Minmatar Hell's Librarians Darkmatter Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 02:05:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Issaries Valran
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Issaries Valran
Originally by: AterraX
This thread is full of whiners who have maxed out their learning skills, are really jealous and butthurt about it and want it to stay unchanged because they had to do it and want others go through the same pain they did.
Nice own goal...you got more?
Fixed for you.
Not really, it was no pain traning them..and now I don't have to worry about them any more...like my other L5 skills.
Once maxed out...out of mind.
You need to troll better to get me all worked up.
Especailly when Hulkageddon III just started
I am not trolling so much as stating a truth. About the mind set of those that think learning skills are fine.
You clearly don't understand why most people prefer to keep learning skills in the game.
Also, we're 18 pages in and have seen no reference to ANYone (CCP or CSM) that states or even implies that learning skills will be removed. Just saying over and over again won't make it true.
KB
=vinur allra manna
MetaGaming |
Issaries Valran
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 02:12:00 -
[529]
Edited by: Issaries Valran on 09/07/2010 02:12:58
Originally by: AterraX
Don't quit your dayjob...if you think trolling = absolute truth
All I see is whines about people wanting stuff (in this case: attribute bonusses) for free.
EvE is a sandbox game...you don't need to train learning skills....but they sure are nice.
Whine some more please...you amuse me
For one I didn't say it was an absolute truth. Nor did I say I wasn't trolling.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension.
I said... ôI am not trolling so much as stating a truth...ö
Which means I was trolling some. But as I was trolling I was also stating a truth. Basically being caustic with my retort.
Nor did I say it was the absolute truth, I said ôa truthö meaning just one truth of a number.
You may believe that everyone of a differing opinion is a troll or a whiner. Instead of people with a valid reason to dislike and want a fix to a design decision. That didn't add any real positives to the game and instead add a list of negatives and deterrents.
No one would be hollering for learning skills if they had never been implemented in the first place. The only reason people are supporting them currently are for selfish reasons having to do with the, hazing effect. Everyone that has them trained was put through the learning skills hazing period and therefor everyone else should be too.
As for me I have the learning skills trained, on multiple chars. And I still believe learning skills are bad and should be done away with. How that should be done is for the Devs to decided.
As for EvE is a sandbox and you don't have to train learning skills. That doesn't really fly. EvE is also a game about efficiency Efficiency is everything in EvE. Efficiency in making ISK. Efficiency at combat, PvP. Efficiency at Trading. Efficiency at Mining. Efficiency at Manufacturing. Efficiency at Research. Efficiency at everything else in EvE including, Skill progression.
I am glad you find me amusing, because I find your crying just as amusing.
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AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.09 02:20:00 -
[530]
Originally by: Issaries Valran Edited by: Issaries Valran on 09/07/2010 02:12:58
Originally by: AterraX
Don't quit your dayjob...if you think trolling = absolute truth
All I see is whines about people wanting stuff (in this case: attribute bonusses) for free.
EvE is a sandbox game...you don't need to train learning skills....but they sure are nice.
Whine some more please...you amuse me
For one I didn't say it was an absolute truth. Nor did I say I wasn't trolling.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension.
I said... ôI am not trolling so much as stating a truth...ö
Which means I was trolling some. But as I was trolling I was also stating a truth. Basically being caustic with my retort.
Nor did I say it was the absolute truth, I said ôa truthö meaning just one truth of a number.
You may believe that everyone of a differing opinion is a troll or a whiner. Instead of people with a valid reason to dislike and want a fix to a design decision. That didn't add any real positives to the game and instead add a list of negatives and deterrents.
No one would be hollering for learning skills if they had never been implemented in the first place. The only reason people are supporting them currently are for selfish reasons having to do with the, hazing effect. Everyone that has them trained was put through the learning skills hazing period and therefor everyone else should be too.
As for me I have the learning skills trained, on multiple chars. And I still believe learning skills are bad and should be done away with. How that should be done is for the Devs to decided.
As for EvE is a sandbox and you don't have to train learning skills. That doesn't really fly. EvE is also a game about efficiency Efficiency is everything in EvE. Efficiency in making ISK. Efficiency at combat, PvP. Efficiency at Trading. Efficiency at Mining. Efficiency at Manufacturing. Efficiency at Research. Efficiency at everything else in EvE including, Skill progression.
I am glad you find me amusing, because I find your crying just as amusing.
All these words, just to try and hide the fact that you want the+10 to all atributes for free
Guess what...not going to happen...whine some more ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.09 02:24:00 -
[531]
Originally by: Issaries Valran
As for EvE is a sandbox and you don't have to train learning skills. That doesn't really fly. EvE is also a game about efficiency Efficiency is everything in EvE. Efficiency in making ISK. Efficiency at combat, PvP. Efficiency at Trading. Efficiency at Mining. Efficiency at Manufacturing. Efficiency at Research. Efficiency at everything else in EvE including, Skill progression.
So your sole purpose for playing this game is min/maxing, thanks for making that clear for us.
Protip: not everyone cares about being "efficient"
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Issaries Valran
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 02:32:00 -
[532]
Originally by: KaarBaak
You clearly don't understand why most people prefer to keep learning skills in the game.
Also, we're 18 pages in and have seen no reference to ANYone (CCP or CSM) that states or even implies that learning skills will be removed. Just saying over and over again won't make it true.
KB
Where in my statement did I say CCP was going to remove them? I did not say that.
I implied they should. I don't know what CCP is going to do, CCP doesn't let me in on their plans. I just support the removal of learning skills from the game.
As for my ability to clearly understand the oppositions argument for keeping learning skills in the game. You can't really construed that information from a sarcastic edit of some other persons post and a short 22 word statement after.
I am sure people have rationalized good reasons to keep things as they are. In fact I read some of them and can understand the rationale of their reasoning. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them, nor does it my statement less valid. Nor does rationalizing a reason to keep them make it a good reason to keep them.
And it is still up to the Devs to decide what is best for the game.
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Issaries Valran
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 02:42:00 -
[533]
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Issaries Valran Edited by: Issaries Valran on 09/07/2010 02:12:58
Originally by: AterraX
Don't quit your dayjob...if you think trolling = absolute truth
All I see is whines about people wanting stuff (in this case: attribute bonusses) for free.
EvE is a sandbox game...you don't need to train learning skills....but they sure are nice.
Whine some more please...you amuse me
For one I didn't say it was an absolute truth. Nor did I say I wasn't trolling.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension.
I said... ôI am not trolling so much as stating a truth...ö
Which means I was trolling some. But as I was trolling I was also stating a truth. Basically being caustic with my retort.
Nor did I say it was the absolute truth, I said ôa truthö meaning just one truth of a number.
You may believe that everyone of a differing opinion is a troll or a whiner. Instead of people with a valid reason to dislike and want a fix to a design decision. That didn't add any real positives to the game and instead add a list of negatives and deterrents.
No one would be hollering for learning skills if they had never been implemented in the first place. The only reason people are supporting them currently are for selfish reasons having to do with the, hazing effect. Everyone that has them trained was put through the learning skills hazing period and therefor everyone else should be too.
As for me I have the learning skills trained, on multiple chars. And I still believe learning skills are bad and should be done away with. How that should be done is for the Devs to decided.
As for EvE is a sandbox and you don't have to train learning skills. That doesn't really fly. EvE is also a game about efficiency Efficiency is everything in EvE. Efficiency in making ISK. Efficiency at combat, PvP. Efficiency at Trading. Efficiency at Mining. Efficiency at Manufacturing. Efficiency at Research. Efficiency at everything else in EvE including, Skill progression.
I am glad you find me amusing, because I find your crying just as amusing.
All these words, just to try and hide the fact that you want the+10 to all atributes for free
Guess what...not going to happen...whine some more
Still proving to all, that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
You are quite amusing..
No where did I state I wanted +10 to all attributes for free.
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Issaries Valran
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 03:04:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Issaries Valran
As for EvE is a sandbox and you don't have to train learning skills. That doesn't really fly. EvE is also a game about efficiency Efficiency is everything in EvE. Efficiency in making ISK. Efficiency at combat, PvP. Efficiency at Trading. Efficiency at Mining. Efficiency at Manufacturing. Efficiency at Research. Efficiency at everything else in EvE including, Skill progression.
So your sole purpose for playing this game is min/maxing, thanks for making that clear for us.
Protip: not everyone cares about being "efficient"
Everyone tries to be Efficient one way or the other. You wouldn't be training your skills beyond level one if you didn't want to be more efficient. And people would stay a rookie ship pilot if efficiency did not matter to them. But it does in some ways to everyone, more so for some less so for others. It also depends on the activities that people partake in.
Efficiency is just another way of demonstrating accomplishment and skill with in the game. And min/maxing your Skill Points, is not the only area people want to be skill full at. Demonstrating your skillfulness at PvP by having a higher kill to death ratio. Is another way of being Efficiency and is actually highly desired efficiency in any PvP corp.
Same thing can apply to explorers that want to more efficiently find and discover anomalies.
Efficiency is just an important element of EvE. Efficiency and min/maxing your skill points are not exactly the same thing. Efficiency can apply to areas in the game that can't be equated to your skill points. Like Efficiency at Commanding Fleets.
And if anyone looked at my chars skills they would wonder about me. Since min/maxing really isn't my strong suit. I train and do what I want I tend to generalize more than specialize.
Pro-tip: Yes they do. One way or the other, everyone wants to get better at things become more skilled at what they do. Not retrogress.
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AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.09 03:33:00 -
[535]
Originally by: Issaries ValranStill proving to all, that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
You are quite amusing..
No where did I state I wanted +10 to all attributes for free. [/quote
Then we are in agreement: Remove learning skills books from the market, don't give anyone who havn't trained the learning skills the attribute bonus. Problem solved...right? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Mathias Black
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 04:32:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Felix Esperium quick tell him he's not a ~special snowflake~
That will show him.
Dear AtteraX,
You're not a special snowflake.
Sincerely, The tens of thousands of other players who also trained learning skills.
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AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.09 04:46:00 -
[537]
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Felix Esperium quick tell him he's not a ~special snowflake~
That will show him.
Dear AtteraX,
You're not a special snowflake.
Sincerely, The tens of thousands of other players who also trained learning skills.
At least I am not whing about the removal of learning skills...based on thin air. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Mathias Black
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 06:05:00 -
[538]
Edited by: Mathias Black on 09/07/2010 06:05:36
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Felix Esperium quick tell him he's not a ~special snowflake~
That will show him.
Dear AtteraX,
You're not a special snowflake.
Sincerely, The tens of thousands of other players who also trained learning skills.
At least I am not whing about the removal of learning skills...based on thin air.
I assure you my air is quite fat.
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rowbin hod
Cloak and Daggers
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 07:06:00 -
[539]
Edited by: rowbin hod on 09/07/2010 07:07:05
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: rowbin hod Edited by: rowbin hod on 08/07/2010 19:07:34
Originally by: democrities
They developed the ability to reimburse SP to refund us SP for the downtime, in their own words.
I must have missed this. Can you point me to that specific quote please?
Read the dev blog much?
Yeah all the time. I just can't find the dev blog where they specifically state that they have introduced this reimburse SP method to compensate for the downtime. I'd appreciate it if you could link it for me.
I found the following news article from the time, when they first announced it, but they didn't state it had been developed for this purpose.
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3963&tid=1
Thanks for looking into this for me. I'll definitely be a lot happier once I know that your original line that I quoted above isn't complete garbage.
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democrities
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 10:39:00 -
[540]
Originally by: rowbin hod Edited by: rowbin hod on 09/07/2010 07:07:05
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: rowbin hod Edited by: rowbin hod on 08/07/2010 19:07:34
Originally by: democrities
They developed the ability to reimburse SP to refund us SP for the downtime, in their own words.
I must have missed this. Can you point me to that specific quote please?
Read the dev blog much?
Yeah all the time. I just can't find the dev blog where they specifically state that they have introduced this reimburse SP method to compensate for the downtime. I'd appreciate it if you could link it for me.
I found the following news article from the time, when they first announced it, but they didn't state it had been developed for this purpose.
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3963&tid=1
Thanks for looking into this for me. I'll definitely be a lot happier once I know that your original line that I quoted above isn't complete garbage.
Really? You didnt see the poster a few posts back who linked directly the quote from CSM from the meeting with CCP? Wherein they debated a monetary refund or an SP refund? hence the creation of the system to refund SP?
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Mashie Saldana
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 11:05:00 -
[541]
Originally by: democrities Really? You didnt see the poster a few posts back who linked directly the quote from CSM from the meeting with CCP? Wherein they debated a monetary refund or an SP refund? hence the creation of the system to refund SP?
Tbh, the news item could mean either it was developed after the CSM meeting, or that it was already work in progress that got fast tracked due to the meeting.
Quote: This will be done through a new system in the development pipeline, currently scheduled for deployment next TuesdayÆs patching opportunity* during regularly scheduled downtime. Since it has been ôhot droppedö into the development plans, we will be providing step-by-step instructions for how to use it as soon as possible.
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Orimei
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 11:27:00 -
[542]
Edited by: Orimei on 09/07/2010 11:45:30 Edited by: Orimei on 09/07/2010 11:41:17 Edited by: Orimei on 09/07/2010 11:33:35 Edited by: Orimei on 09/07/2010 11:26:59 Well, lets face it: it is just inconvenient to have to train learning skills before you can start on the fun skills.*
As a new player you get told pretty quickly to download Evemon. You plug in the stuff you want and it tells you what learning skills to train. It also can tell you how you should remap. Lets face it: the decision to train learning skills isn't a hard one. You are not somehow a strategic genius because you trained em like every single other player. And you didn't work hard for it, neither did it take effort.**
Anyways: inconvenience doesn't equal difficulty. It takes zero thought to train learning skills, it just takes time.
Learning skills aren't bad for the players who post here in this thread cause they already have them. If I start a new alt today it won't matter to me to train them because I already have a char which I can use to actually play the game.
This argument is about the players who start their first trial tomorrow, or in a week, or a month from now on. It's about bettering the new player experience.
No learning skills = more people might try this game = more stick with it after trial = more money for CCP = company grows = more manpower to fix the lag etc.
How can you honestly say that this is a bad thing?
Another point: A good compromise might actually be to let new chars start with learning 4/3/4. Extend the skilltime bonus to 2 mil SP (or rather 1.6 mil + the sp it would've taken to train learning to that levels) and give every char created before the patch whatever SP it takes to train learning to 4/3/4 (about 400k I guess).***
-- *Ye, sure you don't have to train them right from the start and I think noone staring this games does train them without interspersing other skills. However: two remaps at the start + the 100% skill time bonus make it so that it is even better to train them right at the start than in the olden times.
**well I guess it can take some effort for noobs to get the isk for the advanced skills. Personally I did the smart thing when I started the account: bought a 60 day timecard, converted to plex, used one on my account and sold the other in order to get implants and starting funds, so I could train fast right from the beginning.
***This solution has the following upsides: -sufficiently fast skilltimes for short term skillplans. -Decision making if it is better to train them now to higher levels or rather later (so you guys can keep your strategic choices ). -Noobs dont need to aquire the isk for advanced learning skills. -Less work for the database guys at CCP.
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Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 13:57:00 -
[543]
Originally by: democrities
Really? You didnt see the poster a few posts back who linked directly the quote from CSM from the meeting with CCP? Wherein they debated a monetary refund or an SP refund? hence the creation of the system to refund SP?
Quote or it didn't happen.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Temporal Mechanics
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 16:59:00 -
[544]
Originally by: AterraX Whine some more please...you amuse me
I like to amuse people so let me try:
I want what I want and I want it now !!!. If I don't get it for free it's just not fair. Others had to wait and have patience? So what I want what I want and I want it now!!! (How's that?).
This game is hilarious I can see both sides of the same issue. People are so afraid someone else might get something easy that they had to wait for so they come here and hollar and gripe.
CCP will do whatever they want that will make them more money. As in any business, customers and employees are nothing more than a necessary evil to help them to that end...
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Quetazal
Gallente Fine Trades Sandbox Bullies
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:01:00 -
[545]
I have had 4 RL friends recently start EVE.
They spent thier 1.6mil SP boost doing learning skills.
They were very bored. I came, I saw, I downloaded. |
Mathias Black
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 17:39:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Mathias Black Edited by: Mathias Black on 09/07/2010 06:05:36
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Felix Esperium quick tell him he's not a ~special snowflake~
That will show him.
Dear AtteraX,
You're not a special snowflake.
Sincerely, The tens of thousands of other players who also trained learning skills.
At least I am not whing about the removal of learning skills...based on thin air.
I assure you my air is quite fat.
I was really hoping someone would respond "The only thing fat around here is your mom!" so I could respond "OH NO YOU DIDN'T!" This thread fails to deliver.
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Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking Yggdrasill.
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 17:54:00 -
[547]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 09/07/2010 17:57:12 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 09/07/2010 17:56:24
Originally by: Jasdemi Please remove the goddamn learning skills!
4 years old debate, i'm with you guys.
It's a pain in the ass for new players.
Originally by: BrundleMeth
Originally by: AterraX Whine some more please...you amuse me
I like to amuse people so let me try:
I want what I want and I want it now !!!. If I don't get it for free it's just not fair. Others had to wait and have patience? So what I want what I want and I want it now!!! (How's that?).
This game is hilarious I can see both sides of the same issue. People are so afraid someone else might get something easy that they had to wait for so they come here and hollar and gripe.
CCP will do whatever they want that will make them more money. As in any business, customers and employees are nothing more than a necessary evil to help them to that end...
So 2003.
Wake up. Battleships, T2 and stuff, you know. ~ We don't really needed the world cup anyway. |
IIIAsharakIII
FinFleet IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:55:00 -
[548]
Ok first off,
pfffffffffffffffffffffffffft.
Learning skill training is a great time to figure out WHAT you want to do with your time in the game, and honestly if you're not playing the game while the learning skills are training, what makes you think you'll play it while you're training your other skills? Oh and its more than possible to make 22 million in a month, especially if you're out there ratting, mining, missioning, hauling, trading, etc. Although I would be favorable to a price drop in the second tier, maybe half the price or something.
New characters get plenty of initial SP to do some light work in any of the above mentioned fields of recreation in this game. And frankly I feel the time bonus CCP already gave you is too much, and ought to be revoked. I'm not saying this because I need people to go through the same grueling process as myself, but because I feel that free handouts in eve (especially to new players) is an unhealthy habit to get into, and sets them up for failure.
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democrities
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:16:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities
Really? You didnt see the poster a few posts back who linked directly the quote from CSM from the meeting with CCP? Wherein they debated a monetary refund or an SP refund? hence the creation of the system to refund SP?
Quote or it didn't happen.
Quote or it didnt happen? Its in this very same thread on page 18! I am not going to requote something for someone so lazy they can't even look back a page to find it.
Oh look, also another devblog today...changes to the game.. Oh wait, no surprise, it has NOTHING to do with learning skills.
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Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:29:00 -
[550]
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities
Really? You didnt see the poster a few posts back who linked directly the quote from CSM from the meeting with CCP? Wherein they debated a monetary refund or an SP refund? hence the creation of the system to refund SP?
Quote or it didn't happen.
Quote or it didnt happen? Its in this very same thread on page 18! I am not going to requote something for someone so lazy they can't even look back a page to find it.
Oh look, also another devblog today...changes to the game.. Oh wait, no surprise, it has NOTHING to do with learning skills.
Come on, requote it for me. It's such a hot summer day.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
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Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 08:56:00 -
[551]
New day, new hope, new bump, moar troll, moar selfish vets!
o/
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.07.10 09:19:00 -
[552]
Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 10/07/2010 09:22:57
Originally by: Jasdemi New day, new hope, new bump, moar troll, moar selfish vets!
o/
Will you be so kind and post a link to the Dev blog we were promised by the OP? Surely it must be out by now.
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 11:54:00 -
[553]
They could allow PLEX to be redeemed for SPs somehow while maintaining that SPs can't be bought with real money. After all, PLEX is just another in-game item, nothing special...
Or they could create a new just-another-item-item, call it the Cerebral Booster, something that can be traded, sold, looted, or applied for an in-game for SPs or increased skill training speed. Of course it would definitely not be something so crass as selling SPs for money. |
Firebyrd
Gallente evil kitty industries Evil Kitty Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.10 14:03:00 -
[554]
I'm one who has them 5/5 and have been since the advanced was released, i don't care about the SPs, as much as i would be about the Attribute points, I paid the money, and the time, so no half hearted fix with a mix of Imps, and Attributes to recover the 10 points will make me or anyone else happy....
CCP should just leave em alone, Players have a choice, train or not to train... and that's where it should stay... If new players don't like it, then don't play -----------------------------------------------
Life is a Lemon, and i want my money back |
Jasdemi
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:12:00 -
[555]
Originally by: Firebyrd If new players don't like it, then don't play
That's the problem. Why shouldn't new players pay CCP money just due to learnings?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Orimei
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:23:00 -
[556]
Originally by: Firebyrd ... If new players don't like it, then don't play
And that's the whole problem. Without constant influx of new players the game dies.
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ZenSun
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.07.10 14:41:00 -
[557]
I agree with getting rid of them, actually. Then give us pre-existing customers unallocated skillpoints to plot on our sheets, just like you did for the extended DT ;) (fighters V please deliver.)
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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.10 14:45:00 -
[558]
Originally by: Orimei
Originally by: Firebyrd ... If new players don't like it, then don't play
And that's the whole problem. Without constant influx of new players the game dies.
Perhaps CCP should concentrate on fixing numerous gaming issues to retain the old players...
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Remina Hesto
|
Posted - 2010.07.10 14:50:00 -
[559]
Originally by: Guttripper
Perhaps CCP should concentrate on fixing numerous gaming issues to retain the old players...
No, that's actually the problem. CCP has shown that they never will fix the numerous gaming issues they created in the past. Be glad that they're actually working on lag (if we are to believe their devlogs, of course). How long have assault ships and rockets been broken? Vets will keep playing and paying whatever they do, which is good, as they are the ones running the show in this game. Seeing how the average player usually has 2-3 alt accounts, a new player is worth a lot more then an old vet for the corporation.
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Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.10 15:12:00 -
[560]
Taking this from another thread, but this is just a brilliant quote
"I recommend getting one of the Frigate skills to V and the corresponding two small turret specialisations to IV"
This is a great thing to do as a beginner you won't be bored to your mind, and who the hell, sorry but this still ****es me off, why the hell do you RECOMMEND TAKING THE LEARNING SKILLS FIRST?! That's utter and complete bigotry and bull**** advice. Seriulsy do you want the newbie to be bored out of his mind from the day he starts or do you want him to get a feel for the game first?
Learning skills should come secondary AFTER GETTING THE FEEL FOR THE GAME, here's my conclusion, the fact that learning skills are so disliked is that beginners no matter where they go get told, train learning skilsl first, train learning skilsl first. That's just a recipe for disaster and making someone not stick to the game.
Instead it should sound like the quote i posted above, perhaps a player want to mine, then that is also a possible direection. My point is, new players should get a feel for the game first and get to be a part of the bigger picture , either in mission corps you can act as a salvager at first, in a pvp corp get frig 5 and t2 weapon systems to 4. Miner get into a retriever, trade i have no idea about but same deal goes here.
Meat of the matter is tho, learning skills are a tedium yes i agree, but i still support them as they give somewhat of a depht to the game. But they shouldn't be to emphasised to a new player just trying to learn the game, there's more important stuff.
Secondly, there appears to be a unwritten rule that all new players has to train learning skills first, why it exists i do not know, i've stated one of the possible explanations. I'm a fairly new player myself, and my time in the rookie chat i got recomended to train the learning skills, only thing was i had no clue how to find them(i was still a rookie). Also for a long time i had no idea they existed. During this time i trained a assortment of skills, like BC3 and some mining. This was great because it let med have a feel of how the game plays, i even got the chance to do some minor pvp, been through 5-6 pvp battles, i've done missions i've mined.
My point is still, with myself as an example a new player should experiment to get a feel for the game. Then they should train the learning skills relevant to what they want to do. My bet is also that a new player won't be able to afford to train the advanced learning skills right of the bat without taking out a loan or borrow isk from a friend. What kind of example does that set as a player, to begin playing a game you have to rely on others charity. Or you haev the option as a beginner to train learning skills 4/3
tl;dr For those giving the advice to rookies to train the learning skilsl first, you miss a few important factors. 1. The learning skills they train might prove useless to them as they might not be relevant to what they do when they finally find out. 2. They most likely will not have the isk income to buy the advanved learning skills, 20 millions as a new player is alot of isk. So they might have to buy isk through selling plex or stuff or borrow from someone. 3. If they train their learning skilsl to 5/4 the first thing they do and get bored while they have borrowed money, it is likely that the one that borrowed them the money will go on a loss.
In my opinion, a player should firsthand prioritize being self sufficent in his/her income before getting into learning skills. By self sufficent i do not mean being able to buy plex, more being able to make a steady income of isk.
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AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.10 15:21:00 -
[561]
Originally by: ZenSun I agree with getting rid of them, actually. Then give us pre-existing customers unallocated skillpoints to plot on our sheets, just like you did for the extended DT ;) (fighters V please deliver.)
See this is the true cause...wanting the attribute points...but not wanting to do anything to get them.
/thread ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Voith
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Posted - 2010.07.10 15:47:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Orimei
Originally by: Firebyrd ... If new players don't like it, then don't play
And that's the whole problem. Without constant influx of new players the game dies.
Perhaps CCP should concentrate on fixing numerous gaming issues to retain the old players...
You'll never get 100% retention rate.
CCPs dark secret is that while the number of accounts keeps going up, the number of people is staying relatively stable.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.10 18:41:00 -
[563]
So even if many old players stay, why shouldn't more newbies join? What's your purpose, learning lovers? This change will be better for EVERYONE.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.10 18:46:00 -
[564]
Originally by: Jasdemi So even if many old players stay, why shouldn't more newbies join? What's your purpose, learning lovers? This change will be better for EVERYONE.
Not if it turns into some godforsaken welfare plan which many people against learning skills have suggested, +10 skill to all yeah right... improved training times by 10%... yeah right.
There need to be a compromise, and if that compromise is giving all new chars 4/3 it's not a welfare plan.
But then again, the ones opposing learning skills don't seem to be able to get to a compromise...
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Znopi Kichi
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Posted - 2010.07.10 18:50:00 -
[565]
I don't understand why people like you have to write things like this. Just be quiet. Or go play wow where the creaters have no integrity and they listen to idiots like you.
CCP made this game and they made it good ..So leave it to them, to think about changes or not changes in this case! I stand with ccp on everything, even when they make sweeping judgments about the market prices of minerals and dont bother to notice everything else thats dropped in value due to massive influx of new players in the last few years. lol
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.10 18:54:00 -
[566]
Originally by: Znopi Kichi I don't understand why people like you have to write things like this. Just be quiet. Or go play wow where the creaters have no integrity and they listen to idiots like you.
CCP made this game and they made it good ..So leave it to them, to think about changes or not changes in this case! I stand with ccp on everything, even when they make sweeping judgments about the market prices of minerals and dont bother to notice everything else thats dropped in value due to massive influx of new players in the last few years. lol
CCP said that learnings were a mistake and the best solution would be to get rid of them. How do you think all this speculation started?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.10 18:57:00 -
[567]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Znopi Kichi I don't understand why people like you have to write things like this. Just be quiet. Or go play wow where the creaters have no integrity and they listen to idiots like you.
CCP made this game and they made it good ..So leave it to them, to think about changes or not changes in this case! I stand with ccp on everything, even when they make sweeping judgments about the market prices of minerals and dont bother to notice everything else thats dropped in value due to massive influx of new players in the last few years. lol
CCP said that learnings were a mistake and the best solution would be to get rid of them. How do you think all this speculation started?
It all started with the blasted skill point reiumbursement system, hadn't they announced that, this speculation would never have came up.
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Sadian
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Posted - 2010.07.10 19:05:00 -
[568]
Edited by: Sadian on 10/07/2010 19:05:26
Quote: Anyways: inconvenience doesn't equal difficulty. It takes zero thought to train learning skills, it just takes time.
That has to be one of the most inane comments of all time. Don't you realize that applies to every skill? Why not just apply that line of reasoning to every skill in this game. Oh wait a second then Eve would be a first person shooter (See Dust 514 or 574 or whatever) Why do you people (learning skill whiners) come to this game, enjoy it, fail at it and then try and change the rules? If you suck at chess do you try and change the rules of the game? ALL worthwhile rewards require a bit of sacrifice and if you want to speed up your skill training a bit learn the skills necessary. Earn it! Quit demanding something for nothing! Love Sadian
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Vee Raa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.10 19:06:00 -
[569]
I still don't understand why now you must train the learning skills ? Your char would be gimped they say .. compared to what ? others who have more sp's ? You know .. there will always be a bigger fish in the pond. If you don't like them, don't train them.
Wait did i hear some 'WhhaaaWhhaaaa' ? it would take more time you say ? Yeah, absolutely not fair, that guy over there has Afterburners V and reaches the gate waay earlier than you let's dump those skills too.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.10 19:11:00 -
[570]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 10/07/2010 19:11:10
Originally by: Sadian Edited by: Sadian on 10/07/2010 19:05:26
Quote: Anyways: inconvenience doesn't equal difficulty. It takes zero thought to train learning skills, it just takes time.
That has to be one of the most inane comments of all time. Don't you realize that applies to every skill? Why not just apply that line of reasoning to every skill in this game. Oh wait a second then Eve would be a first person shooter (See Dust 514 or 574 or whatever) Why do you people (learning skill whiners) come to this game, enjoy it, fail at it and then try and change the rules? If you suck at chess do you try and change the rules of the game? ALL worthwhile rewards require a bit of sacrifice and if you want to speed up your skill training a bit learn the skills necessary. Earn it! Quit demanding something for nothing! Love Sadian
Someone didn't have 'nuff balls to post with his main. :)
Also another thing:
Why this and 2 other threads across the forum weren't closed yet? Posting rumor will result in a lock, so why are all 3 threads still alive and kickin'?
Threads about SP purchase and SP remaps were closed in 1 day or so, but this one is open for almost 2 weeks now, and still not closed. May a QQ'ing vet explain me this?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Hell's Librarians Darkmatter Initiative
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Posted - 2010.07.10 19:15:00 -
[571]
/reported for rumor-mongering per CCP Fallout.
=vinur allra manna
MetaGaming |
Sadian
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Posted - 2010.07.10 19:41:00 -
[572]
Quote: Someone didn't have 'nuff balls to post with his main. :)
This is my main. I did play several years before but this is who I am playing now. I'm living in Kor-Azor region mostly right now and I stand by everything I wrote. Now I'm off to practice 'Presence' just to gall the anti-learning brigade. Sadian
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.10 23:32:00 -
[573]
Originally by: CCP Fallout Hello all,
I know many of you are enjoying yourselves today, posting baseless rumors about features of the game. While they may humor you, they are causing discord amongst the community, are considered trolling, and are not welcomed on our forums.
Please note that continued rumor threads may result in official warnings against your forum account and can result in the temporary or permanent removal of your posting privileges.
I'd hope that you'd all had your fun, but please keep in mind that trolling is prohibited.
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us
Direct link ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Orimei
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Posted - 2010.07.11 00:43:00 -
[574]
Edited by: Orimei on 11/07/2010 00:46:50 Edited by: Orimei on 11/07/2010 00:44:41
Originally by: Sadian Edited by: Sadian on 10/07/2010 19:05:26
Quote: Anyways: inconvenience doesn't equal difficulty. It takes zero thought to train learning skills, it just takes time.
Don't you realize that applies to every skill? Why not just apply that line of reasoning to every skill in this game. Oh wait a second then Eve would be a first person shooter (See Dust 514 or 574 or whatever)
No, you are wrong. Every other skill takes thought, a decision. Don't care for mining? Don't train. Need more powergrid? Train engineering. Do I need drones now or later? Do I like Caldari ships or Amarr?
You see every skill that is not a learning skill enables you to use stuff or makes your ship better.
Learning skills are above this system. They enable quicker skilltimes which everyone likes, so no it does not take thought to train them.
Edit: just for clearification: implants have a risk vs reward mechanism so they are not comparable to learning skills even if they too enable quicker training times.
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Sadian
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Posted - 2010.07.11 01:48:00 -
[575]
Quote: No, you are wrong. Every other skill takes thought, a decision. Don't care for mining? Don't train. Need more powergrid? Train engineering. Do I need drones now or later? Do I like Caldari ships or Amarr?
You see every skill that is not a learning skill enables you to use stuff or makes your ship better.
Learning skills are above this system. They enable quicker skilltimes which everyone likes, so no it does not take thought to train them.
Ori I am not wrong. You are operating under the misguided assumption that learning skills are a requirement. They are not, they are a bonus if you CHOOSE to train them. It appears that most people CHOOSE to train them (to level 4) so what? You can accomplish everything in game without ever training a learning skill. There is only one required skill and that is spaceship command. Sadian
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Orimei
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Posted - 2010.07.11 01:56:00 -
[576]
Originally by: Sadian
You are operating under the misguided assumption that learning skills are a requirement. They are not, they are a bonus if you CHOOSE to train them. It appears that most people CHOOSE to train them (to level 4) so what? You can accomplish everything in game without ever training a learning skill. There is only one required skill and that is spaceship command. Sadian
Sure only to choose to not train learning skills is so ****ing ******ed that everybody chooses to train them instead. Making them a de facto requirement if you ever want to get that ship in a timely manner.
I didn't have to think about training learning, did you? Seriously?
Instead I think about stuff like Crusader vs Taranis? Which do I train first?
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.11 08:31:00 -
[577]
For the sake of privacy I will not spout names, but I know a few people that started the learnings only a while ago, as when they started EVE, they where not around, and being already a few years old, there was no incentive to start learning them when they came out.
Learnings can be done with in 1 month, if you do it at account start and use the bonus for it. You can also use the bonus for getting in something fast, in which case the learnings become a drag, and you train slower for a huge amount of time.
Do not remove learning skills, they are a good way to give people more choices on how to proceed: will I invest in a long term EVE career (and be utterly useless the first month or so, or will I speedtrain into <insert random ship here> and get to the learnings later.
Just handing out a bunch of SP on account start would do exactly the same, but following that logic, you could argue a 10m SP start as well, as eventualy people will get there
========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
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Posted - 2010.07.11 08:55:00 -
[578]
Originally by: Ressiv
Do not remove learning skills, they are a good way to give people more choices on how to proceed: will I invest in a long term EVE career (and be utterly useless the first month or so, or will I speedtrain into <insert random ship here> and get to the learnings later.
Sounds like a choice of "SHOULD I HAVE FUN OR THROW 1st MONTH AWAY"
Seriously, there is NO good reason to make the first month a player has the WORST one. It is a stupid requirement and needs to be removed. New players should be encouraged to play the game, not queue a ton of skills that do not advance their character and WAIT because they can't do anything else.
The only argument really against this is "we had to grind that crap, force the newbs to do it too!". It's just bitter whining, you'd get the SP back, all the while having the benefit of having those trained in the first place over all that time.
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Drykor
Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.07.11 09:12:00 -
[579]
I can't believe people are arguing to keep learning skills. Just because you're used to them and had to do them doesn't make them valueable. Look up cognitive dissonance, seems like a lot of people are experiencing that. They're a complete and utter crap mechanic. I started this game with about 15 other people I knew, these guys were fairly hardcore coming from an Ultima Online lookalike. ALL of them quit, mostly because they got completely fed up with the 'choice' between doing learning skills and doing something fun. They chose not to and saw me get ahead of them in SP really fast since I did do them. Even though I couldn't fly jack **** at all. ALl of them left the game and only a couple came back at a later time. If there's 1 thing keeping new players from staying, it's probably this.
Get rid of this mechanic, it doesn't make any sense at all.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.11 18:07:00 -
[580]
Originally by: Drykor I can't believe people are arguing to keep learning skills.
The funny part of the learning lovers is that none has stated a reason why this broken mechanic should be kept ingame. The vets who want learnings to remain are just angry, because they had to learn them. I also maxed all learnings, but I want them removed. Over 20 pages later and I still don't exactly understand what's going on in people's heads who want to keep learnings ingame. What's wrong with them?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
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Kovcher Staklinch
Caldari Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.11 18:16:00 -
[581]
I don't understand why this thread is still open. I thought CCP mentioned rumour isn't allowed? I don't see any CCP confirming this rumour so why is it still open?
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.11 18:18:00 -
[582]
Originally by: Kovcher Staklinch I don't understand why this thread is still open. I thought CCP mentioned rumour isn't allowed? I don't see any CCP confirming this rumour so why is it still open?
Isn't it obvious? This isn't a rumor. CCP said that learnings were a mistake and the best solution would be to get rid of them. We're just discussing about what they've said.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.11 18:28:00 -
[583]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Drykor I can't believe people are arguing to keep learning skills.
The funny part of the learning lovers is that none has stated a reason why this broken mechanic should be kept ingame. The vets who want learnings to remain are just angry, because they had to learn them. I also maxed all learnings, but I want them removed. Over 20 pages later and I still don't exactly understand what's going on in people's heads who want to keep learnings ingame. What's wrong with them?
*headdesks*
I am pro learning skills and i'm not a vet, i currently run 4/4 learning skills aswell planning to take them to 5/5 soon. I've only been playing for a few months so far. The only thing i have seen from the ones that want anti learning removed is.
1. Newbies has to train them the first thing they do or they are gimped.
FALSE, they do not have to do this unless they want their first time in the game to be boring, instead they should do it step by step and raise the stats that are useful for their chosen profession.
2. Learning skills are a must and are required to be able to compete.
FALSE, why SP may be important it is your own experience with a ship or proffesion that takes you somewhere. A person that intends to pvp don't have to train learning skills first, they should get some ewar, gunnery/missile skills and frig skill up instead of do learning, and they will be very able to compete with a vet after enough time.
3. Waah Waah WAAH i can't be bothered to think on how i am going to train my learning skills and i have to tell others how to skill up their character.
So far i have seen the anti learnign skills people being the ones REINFORCING that you have to train the learning skills FIRST as a new player. Us pro learning skills have given suggestions and option for compromnise, but it seems like those against learning skills are unable to accept them and want all the bonuses at once like a welfare plan.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.11 18:34:00 -
[584]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 11/07/2010 18:34:57 You MUST train learnings as a newbie. I think it's a huge difference if you get 15m SP instead of 8m per year, no?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 18:42:00 -
[585]
Originally by: Jasdemi
You MUST train learnings as a newbie. I think it's a huge difference if you get 15m SP instead of 8m per year, no?
If you think so, then train them. Not everyone cares about their SP/year though.
I still haven't seen any argument from you other than "waahhh learning skills are so boring to train so please get rid of them since they are required and provide no benefits. Oh wait, they do provide benefits so please give us those for free. No I will not provide a single suggestion or compromise other than 'gimme that stuff for free' and anyone who feels otherwise obviously has RL problems or is a bitter vet."
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Kovcher Staklinch
Caldari Universal Moose Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.11 18:45:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Kovcher Staklinch I don't understand why this thread is still open. I thought CCP mentioned rumour isn't allowed? I don't see any CCP confirming this rumour so why is it still open?
Isn't it obvious? This isn't a rumor. CCP said that learnings were a mistake and the best solution would be to get rid of them. We're just discussing about what they've said.
So CCP saying it's a mistake and that they would be getting rid of them isn't a rumour? So it's confirmed? |
Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.07.11 18:45:00 -
[587]
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 11/07/2010 18:34:57 You MUST train learnings as a newbie. I think it's a huge difference if you get 15m SP instead of 8m per year, no?
No you do not, while it may be a difference, what will those 15 million SP's a year do if you got no idea what you find fun and what you eventually want to go into, i.e pvp, missions, mining the whole spectrum.
So if you train 5/5 for the first three months as a new player, and then you get into a career who won't train any charisma based skills i.e a pure pvp'er and no social/LS skills. Then you have effectivelly made a new player waste several million isk, isk they might have been forced to borrow because 20 million isk is no small sum to a beginner.
Also they have wasted training time they could spend on other skills related to what they want to do or experiment.
Order a new player should go in is. 1. Get a feel for the game, try mining, pvp and missions as the larger proffesions, or trading if you want to do that.
2. Get a steady income first off, BC's usually work great for this, and in turn the new player will be able to FUND his own learning skills books aswell as be able to make himself a steady income. Can be mining aswell.
3. Train the appropiate learning skill levels based on their long term plan if they have one, if you have a plan that only stretches for five to six months it is pointless to take learning skills to 5/5. Train skills in steps including learning skills.
Many people have allready suggested the final option in number 3 aswell, but it has been met for deaf ears. You aren't forced to train all at once, best deal is to train them to a basic level 4/3 or 4/4 after you have some idea what you want to do. Then as you feel the need for it train them to 5/4 or 5/5. Like you would do with any other long term plan in EVE, do them in stages, get some fun inbetween like a new ship or the ability to fit better modules to your drake (just an example.
SO while there is a differencem it is pointless if a new player don't know what it wants to do.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 20:34:00 -
[588]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 20:35:35 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 20:35:19 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 20:34:55
Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
No you do not, while it may be a difference, what will those 15 million SP's a year do if you got no idea what you find fun and what you eventually want to go into, i.e pvp, missions, mining the whole spectrum.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Thus, there is ample room for the statement that "elite" learnign skills will benefit them more, since most of them already have the prerequisites to train them off the bat when they come out, while, say a new player, just gets more learning skills the they have to learn to be long term competitive.
And you see, this is the real point why it's the last thing to do. We dont WANT more "mandatory" skills which give you no direct benefit. If anything, we'd like to exterminate the damn things.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=298143&page=3#81
I would take a dev saying you have to over you saying you don't and giving crappy reasons.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 20:40:00 -
[589]
confirming that Oveur personally cancels your account if you don't train learning skills.
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Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.11 20:46:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 20:35:35 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 20:35:19 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 20:34:55
Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
No you do not, while it may be a difference, what will those 15 million SP's a year do if you got no idea what you find fun and what you eventually want to go into, i.e pvp, missions, mining the whole spectrum.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Thus, there is ample room for the statement that "elite" learnign skills will benefit them more, since most of them already have the prerequisites to train them off the bat when they come out, while, say a new player, just gets more learning skills the they have to learn to be long term competitive.
And you see, this is the real point why it's the last thing to do. We dont WANT more "mandatory" skills which give you no direct benefit. If anything, we'd like to exterminate the damn things.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=298143&page=3#81
I would take a dev saying you have to over you saying you don't and giving crappy reasons.
Why don't they do that then? Nothing stops them does it, at least in theory. They got the means to reimburse the points if they want to. Or it could be the fact that there is something in the way of them doing it. They could have decided to remove the learning skills long ago.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 20:47:00 -
[591]
You don't have to train learning skills and Minmatar pilots don't have to train projectile weapons. Go tell all of the new pilots to skip learning skills and use hybrids of their projectile ships.
Crap when you get down to it you don't have to train skill at all not like they are going to cancel your account for it right. Ii think it would be a great idea to spend half my time playing Eve not training skills at all so i can rest up in between learning things. I would hate to learn things to quickly as a new player with no real skills. After all not training your learning skills is pretty close to only training half of the time.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.11 20:53:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes You don't have to train learning skills and Minmatar pilots don't have to train projectile weapons. Go tell all of the new pilots to skip learning skills and use hybrids of their projectile ships.
Crap when you get down to it you don't have to train skill at all not like they are going to cancel your account for it right. Ii think it would be a great idea to spend half my time playing Eve not training skills at all so i can rest up in between learning things. I would hate to learn things to quickly as a new player with no real skills. After all not training your learning skills is pretty close to only training half of the time.
What? Take a big breath and try again.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 20:54:00 -
[593]
people often use projectiles on ships they weren't designed for. Clearly everyone must train projectiles!
Wait people are still training hybrids? Don't they know those are only like 50% as effective? Obviously these fools shouldn't be playing this game if they can't min/max their dps.
Wait, you mean people mining in frigs aren't even 50% as effective as barge miners? Why bother playing (mining) until you are in a hulk? You aren't doing it as efficiently as "everyone else" so you shouldn't even bother, right?
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:00:00 -
[594]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 21:07:51 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 21:05:41 Lol the skill point reimbursement system just got a nice live mass testing. I'm just popping in every now and then and poking at the worst of the arguments for keeping the skills. I have a quote from a Executive Producer back before he was in that position. When talking about removing skills before they mentions the difficultly of making a skill reimbursement system for getting rid of learning skills and now they have one. With all of that i have little doubt they are going away.
I find all of the people fighting for the particular learning increase system that CCP regrets adding quite amusing. The player support for removing them is more then enough for CCP to continue along their path to removing them from the game. Please continue to make bad arguments for them though. I find them funny if their complete ridiculousness and I find it hard to believe that CCP can take many of them seriously at all.
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Sniffy McJiggles
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:01:00 -
[595]
They must be letting this thread go for a reason. It would seem that they could have locked it long ago. Although it has been a good discussion for both sides.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:06:00 -
[596]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 21:06:11
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes You don't have to train learning skills and Minmatar pilots don't have to train projectile weapons. Go tell all of the new pilots to skip learning skills and use hybrids of their projectile ships.
Crap when you get down to it you don't have to train skill at all not like they are going to cancel your account for it right. Ii think it would be a great idea to spend half my time playing Eve not training skills at all so i can rest up in between learning things. I would hate to learn things to quickly as a new player with no real skills. After all not training your learning skills is pretty close to only training half of the time.
What? Take a big breath and try again.
Sorry i must of forgotten to add in clear marks to emphasize all of the sarcasm in that statement. I forgot that people will try and misread anything you say if you don't clarify every point.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:10:00 -
[597]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 11/07/2010 21:10:35
Originally by: Sniffy McJiggles They must be letting this thread go for a reason. It would seem that they could have locked it long ago. Although it has been a good discussion for both sides.
You're right. Threads about SP remaps and SP purchasing with real money were closed immediately. This one is running for over 2 weeks now. :D
Although trolls who are protecting the learnings are pretty pathetic, I must say.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:10:00 -
[598]
Originally by: Sniffy McJiggles They must be letting this thread go for a reason. It would seem that they could have locked it long ago. Although it has been a good discussion for both sides.
I think they are looking at the replies...and having a good laugh at the trolling. If anything this thread has shown that messing with the learning skills would cause major dissatisfaction.
So if anything can be gather from this thread it is that there are 3 sides.
The freeloaders side: They want it all, with no effort. They want the skills attribute bonus...but won't train to get it. They cry really loud, but are very small in numbers.
The "have trained, let it be side". These players have trained learninb skills and like their attribute bonus. They don't want a simple SP/ISK reimbursement, they want to keep things as they are. I would say these are the majority of players.
And then people like me. The "Okay, remove the skillsbooks and nothing more...and enjoy the whinefeast" We say: OK remove the skillbooks from the game...but don't award the attribute bonus to anyone who didn't train the skills. We are still very few in numbers...but every whine about removing the learning skills adds to our numbers.
So go ahead...whine about the removal of learning skills...but be carefull for what you wish for ;)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:13:00 -
[599]
"waahhh learning skills are so boring to train so please get rid of them since they are required and provide no benefits. Oh wait, they do provide benefits so please give us those for free. No I will not provide a single suggestion or compromise other than 'gimme that stuff for free' and anyone who feels otherwise obviously has RL problems or is a bitter vet."
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:13:00 -
[600]
Gee, 20 pages and still no CCP response, no announcement in dev blogs, no nothing. Further confirmation that the OP was full of crap and this is pure speculaion not based on fact. As much as you parrots want to, repeating this stuff over and over again wont make it happen. This isn't the wizard of Oz where saying something 3 times while clicking your heels makes it happen.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:13:00 -
[601]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 21:16:03 I want them removed. I want the points given to everyone. I have a main and an alt with 5/4 learning skills. How am i a freeloader?
I think it's good for the game that is all. If they removed then and didn't refund a single point put into learning I would still support them being removed. I think that they new player experience could be made quite a bit better with them gone. I agree with CCP Oveur they are a barrier to new players.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:19:00 -
[602]
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes I want the points given to everyone.
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
How am i a freeloader?
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:21:00 -
[603]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 21:21:59
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes I want the points given to everyone.
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
How am i a freeloader?
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 21:16:03 I want them removed. I want the points given to everyone. I have a main and an alt with 5/4 learning skills. How am i a freeloader?
I think it's good for the game that is all. If they removed then and didn't refund a single point put into learning I would still support them being removed. I think that they new player experience could be made quite a bit better with them gone. I agree with CCP Oveur they are a barrier to new players.
I think you missed some.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:27:00 -
[604]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes I want the points given to everyone.
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
How am i a freeloader?
Wow, desperate vet wannabe-troll is out of arguments. CCP should close all 3 threads before you guys kill each other. Seriously, l2b moar constructive ... Don't kids learn this at school nowadays anymore?
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REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:31:00 -
[605]
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
I think you missed some.
Nope I got it all. I think you missed some of your own argument if you don't think you are proposing a mass handout of free stuff. I went through this with someone else in this same thread. Just because you have maxed learnings (which you don't even so you would in fact be directly getting free stuff) doesn't mean all your characters or all the noobs starting the game do too. You are arguing to give them (and yourself) freebies which makes you a freeloader. I am not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:32:00 -
[606]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Wow, desperate vet wannabe-troll is out of arguments. CCP should close all 3 threads before you guys kill each other. Seriously, l2b moar constructive ... Don't kids learn this at school nowadays anymore?
"waahhh learning skills are so boring to train so please get rid of them since they are required and provide no benefits. Oh wait, they do provide benefits so please give us those for free. No I will not provide a single suggestion or compromise other than 'gimme that stuff for free' and anyone who feels otherwise obviously has RL problems or is a bitter vet."
This is all I see when you post.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:38:00 -
[607]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
I think you missed some.
Nope I got it all. I think you missed some of your own argument if you don't think you are proposing a mass handout of free stuff. I went through this with someone else in this same thread. Just because you have maxed learnings (which you don't even so you would in fact be directly getting free stuff) doesn't mean all your characters or all the noobs starting the game do too. You are arguing to give them (and yourself) freebies which makes you a freeloader. I am not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freeloader : to impose upon another's generosity or hospitality without sharing in the cost or responsibility
You got the wrong definition. It is hard to impose on someone else what they have already said they would like. I already have the skills so i have paid the cost. Lets say they only up the skills +9 and we don't get the points back then I only lose points and gain nothing.
I am not looking for personal gain of any kind here though i see your going to continue to try and play it up like I do. This is about the game not gain. Are the CCP guys who said they would like them gone also freeloaders?
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:46:00 -
[608]
Maybe i can two part this for you so you can understand.
I do not think that they maximum training speeds in Eve should be decreased. I don't hear people saying that they are to fast as they are.
I do think that learning skills are a barrier to new players and CCP has said before it agree with me. A month for a brand new player is a good long time. I think they should be removed.
The only way to A) Remove learning skills while B) Not decreasing the maximum learning speed is to remove the skills and increase the base speed. You have a better idea that meets those 2 requirements lets hear it.
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:50:00 -
[609]
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freeloader : to impose upon another's generosity or hospitality without sharing in the cost or responsibility
You got the wrong definition. It is hard to impose on someone else what they have already said they would like. I already have the skills so i have paid the cost. Lets say they only up the skills +9 and we don't get the points back then I only lose points and gain nothing.
I am not looking for personal gain of any kind here though i see your going to continue to try and play it up like I do. This is about the game not gain. Are the CCP guys who said they would like them gone also freeloaders?
bolded the WTF part. I think you may need to reread something.
Anyway, If you take the skills away and give only +9 what about the people that trained the (PITA) rank 3's to lvl 5? I just don't get why anything for free has to be involved and no one who wants to get rid of them will consider anything else. I posted an idea some pages back in this thread that I felt was a solid compromise, check it out and tell me what you think. Contrary to popular belief I am not just trolling this thread, I have been constructive at points.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 22:36:00 -
[610]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 22:42:04 I want the learning skills removed. I do not want max training times in Eve decreased. How do you do that without giving free points to people? Why is giving free points to new players a bad thing? I would say that new players not having 30 days or more of skills to train that affect only training times a good thing.
You explain it to me. I have made my point and have CCP quotes that support the fact that learning skills are a barrier to new players. How does giving these skills to players hurt Eve in any way? How does taking something out of the game that CCP regrets adding do damage?
CCP has never said anything that resembles them regretting increasing the learning speed of players. Only that they regret how they did it. The learning skills seem to have resulted from them trying to avoid giving a "free" training increase in the first place when they wanted a learning speed increase. Free is not a dirty word. I don't toss out gifts from CCP and i didn't refuse to use my free 100k skill points. None of them hurt the game so how does this? Other then making it easier on new player (which is what i am after so i really don't see as a negative) what other effect does removing them and just increaseing the base speed cause?
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 22:47:00 -
[611]
I assume you didn't go back and read my idea?
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 22:52:00 -
[612]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 22:52:57
Originally by: Felix Esperium I assume you didn't go back and read my idea?
I would of loved to but your recent post list is more trolling then helpful and i have read everything on it. If you have an idea that fits what i'm looking for post it or the link. I'm not about to re-read 600+ post looking for a serious and helpful post from you. :P
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Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.07.11 23:03:00 -
[613]
Originally by: Felix Esperium ok instead of just saying "no" all the time I will throw in an idea.
Remove learning skills, give no free attributes, give learning SP back, implants stay the same.
Tie learning/attribute enhancement into the new player experience. Make the tutorials more involved and have them actually teach you how to play the game and give attribute points upon completion.
Each attribute should come from different sorts of tasks. Just as an example of what I'm thinking you could award a point of perception for fitting your ship, then another for shooting some rats, then another for getting your noob ship blown up (too many noobs are afraid of death) then maybe another for shooting a player ship, then one for surviving a GCC for a full 15 minutes. And so on for the rest of the points, with each task getting slightly more difficult and requiring a little more interaction with other players. Willpower points could be gained from using drones or taking a tour of lowsec or something. Charisma points could be gained by trading or joining a player corp. etc...
This way we aren't giving things out for free, new players get attributes without having to train for them, noobs get involved and actually learn the game while "training learning skills", they get out of highsec and experience a little of the variety the game has to offer before becoming mindless slaves to the mining/mission grind, and vets would be mildly inconvenienced but would most likely be able to accomplish all the tasks very quickly and painlessly. Make sure everything can be done from 0.0 too so people aren't forced to make a trip to empire if they don't want to. I would expect the total time of these attribute gathering missions to take maybe a few days to a week for a brand new player.
edited very slightly from the original since it's been awhile.
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Spectral Shadow
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Posted - 2010.07.11 23:23:00 -
[614]
With reference to the title of this thread.
I hope so.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.11 23:24:00 -
[615]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 23:27:13 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 11/07/2010 23:25:10 That is not a bad idea for another way to do it. It really does not give any additional benefit though over just giving them the points and letting them play the game outside of a liner path to gain skill points in game. Making it something that any new player can do successfully is not much different then just giving it to you. It is still free just with an illusion of effort or minimal amount of effort. It also adds additional unnecessary complication that could have unwanted and unseen consequences. How do you deal with the players who are not new when you add in the system?
If they could solve the issues with a system like that I would support it and so would many of the other people who want the learning skill gone. The only reason I support the refund skills points and increased base stats an my primary choice is that is it the easiest, most straight forward, and least likely to have negative consequence option i have seen for removing learning skills.
If you have a real reason for how giving these free points to new players would hurt then game then it would make it a bad idea to do then you would get more support for your idea. Offering it as the more complicated alternative to avoid looking like your giving overly free skills points it not going to get to much support. I really am curious how a basic learning skill increase without all of the extra will hurt anything.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.12 14:44:00 -
[616]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Felix Esperium ok instead of just saying "no" all the time I will throw in an idea.
Remove learning skills, give no free attributes, give learning SP back, implants stay the same.
Tie learning/attribute enhancement into the new player experience. Make the tutorials more involved and have them actually teach you how to play the game and give attribute points upon completion.
Each attribute should come from different sorts of tasks. Just as an example of what I'm thinking you could award a point of perception for fitting your ship, then another for shooting some rats, then another for getting your noob ship blown up (too many noobs are afraid of death) then maybe another for shooting a player ship, then one for surviving a GCC for a full 15 minutes. And so on for the rest of the points, with each task getting slightly more difficult and requiring a little more interaction with other players. Willpower points could be gained from using drones or taking a tour of lowsec or something. Charisma points could be gained by trading or joining a player corp. etc...
This way we aren't giving things out for free, new players get attributes without having to train for them, noobs get involved and actually learn the game while "training learning skills", they get out of highsec and experience a little of the variety the game has to offer before becoming mindless slaves to the mining/mission grind, and vets would be mildly inconvenienced but would most likely be able to accomplish all the tasks very quickly and painlessly. Make sure everything can be done from 0.0 too so people aren't forced to make a trip to empire if they don't want to. I would expect the total time of these attribute gathering missions to take maybe a few days to a week for a brand new player.
edited very slightly from the original since it's been awhile.
That's not too bad, but why waste precious dev times if this can be done much easier and better?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.12 15:06:00 -
[617]
Edited by: Ressiv on 12/07/2010 15:07:20
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Felix Esperium ok instead of just saying "no" all the time I will throw in an idea.
Remove learning skills, give no free attributes, give learning SP back, implants stay the same.
Tie learning/attribute enhancement into the new player experience. Make the tutorials more involved and have them actually teach you how to play the game and give attribute points upon completion.
Each attribute should come from different sorts of tasks. Just as an example of what I'm thinking you could award a point of perception for fitting your ship, then another for shooting some rats, then another for getting your noob ship blown up (too many noobs are afraid of death) then maybe another for shooting a player ship, then one for surviving a GCC for a full 15 minutes. And so on for the rest of the points, with each task getting slightly more difficult and requiring a little more interaction with other players. Willpower points could be gained from using drones or taking a tour of lowsec or something. Charisma points could be gained by trading or joining a player corp. etc...
This way we aren't giving things out for free, new players get attributes without having to train for them, noobs get involved and actually learn the game while "training learning skills", they get out of highsec and experience a little of the variety the game has to offer before becoming mindless slaves to the mining/mission grind, and vets would be mildly inconvenienced but would most likely be able to accomplish all the tasks very quickly and painlessly. Make sure everything can be done from 0.0 too so people aren't forced to make a trip to empire if they don't want to. I would expect the total time of these attribute gathering missions to take maybe a few days to a week for a brand new player.
edited very slightly from the original since it's been awhile.
If I'd have to choose between the OP's idea and this, I'd go with the OP's idea ... as this would require me to do very stupid things when I decide to start a new toon, while I already know the game.
ALSO, the learning skills can be done during training bonus (except for 2) even if you intermix some other skills to not have to sit on yer ass for a month and be able to earn a bit of isk in the process either mining, pve-ing or trading.
Having read a fair portion of this, I admit the learning skills are a drag and force people to do them, but since this whole game is centered around having to wait for skill completion, I dont realy see the problem with getting used to that from the start.
Removing the learning skills and just upping the base attributes as if everybody, including new toons, have 5/5 learning skills could be an option, and since every sane pilot will train the learnings at some point, arguably a good step, but it removes the reward for being a little more patient then your neighbour.
I dont know if that is good or bad, it's different, and the way I see it doesnt change much. New players still will not be able to catch up, and the only real effect it would have on new players is saving one month of boring skills, so they can go ahead and spend the rest of the year still grinding training equaly boring skills to be able to be fit/fly ships properly.
Whats next, handing out Core Elite cuz thats a drag as well ?
========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Jaina Kort
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Posted - 2010.07.12 15:43:00 -
[618]
We keep hearing the same things over and over in this thread, just with different words. I think that the real problem with learning skills is that no one can really give a definate "this is why they need to be in/out of Eve".
We keep hearing how learning skills are a barrier to a new player, but others argue that they do not need to learn them. Well, that is true to a sense, but if you want to train quicker, they are needed.
I think that it is hard for any new player to know if they will be in the game for a while, so, I usually suggest for them to train to level three quickly as they are fast and then decide their future. I do personally think that the negotiation, diplomacy, and other social skills like that do have a big "plan for the future" game plan within eve alongside the picking of your corporations and factions. So, I think they will not be too missed as there are many areas within Eve that have a lot of this gameplay.
I personally have all to level 5, I don't care either way if kept in or taken out. Other than the "plan for the future" part, I don't really see a need for them at all. Implants will still people a choice for how fast they want to train, like they do now. So, personally, I don't see anything really changing other than people that trained them get their points to skills they can use and the new players only need to save up for good implants and plan their combat/trade/social etc skills for their future.
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Vee Raa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:00:00 -
[619]
Originally by: Jaina Kort We keep hearing the same things over and over in this thread, just with different words. I think that the real problem with learning skills is that no one can really give a definate "this is why they need to be in/out of Eve".
maybe to keep the diversity within the playerbase ?
Originally by: Jaina Kort
We keep hearing how learning skills are a barrier to a new player, but others argue that they do not need to learn them. Well, that is true to a sense, but if you want to train quicker, they are needed.
Yes, just like if you want to fire your guns quicker you gonna traid Rapid Firing, wanna remove that too ?
Originally by: Jaina Kort
I think that it is hard for any new player to know if they will be in the game for a while, so, I usually suggest for them to train to level three quickly as they are fast and then decide their future. I do personally think that the negotiation, diplomacy, and other social skills like that do have a big "plan for the future" game plan within eve alongside the picking of your corporations and factions. So, I think they will not be too missed as there are many areas within Eve that have a lot of this gameplay.
Basically a good advice, but why do you want to decrease the diversity ? It's a game where you have to take a lot of decisions, decreasing the options will make it only dumber.
Originally by: Jaina Kort
I personally have all to level 5, I don't care either way if kept in or taken out. Other than the "plan for the future" part, I don't really see a need for them at all. Implants will still people a choice for how fast they want to train, like they do now. So, personally, I don't see anything really changing other than people that trained them get their points to skills they can use and the new players only need to save up for good implants and plan their combat/trade/social etc skills for their future.
Which might make taking a look into low-sec a rare happening when everything relies on implants.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:07:00 -
[620]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 12/07/2010 20:18:51
Originally by: Vee Raa
Yes, just like if you want to fire your guns quicker you gonna traid Rapid Firing, wanna remove that too?
Skills like Rapid Firing directly improves your characters. This motivates players, especially the new ones to continue playing the game. Learnings on the other side only affect chars indirectly and the ROI is very long. This leads to loss of motivation and possibly to cancellation of accounts. Not everyone is like this, but most of people would probably leave if they had to keep a sub running for 3 months for practically nothing.
Why shouldn't CCP let such people jump on and harvest money from them? Why should they throw away potential customers?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
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Gred McAlen
Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:19:00 -
[621]
I'm Gred McAlen and I support this suggestion! ______________________ Accepting only Ammarian Express transactions! no checks or Visk! |
Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 07:14:00 -
[622]
Originally by: Gred McAlen I'm Gred McAlen and I support this suggestion!
Gred McAlen is right. Do it. Do it. Do it.
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REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:02:00 -
[623]
Edited by: SammyullJackson on 13/07/2010 22:02:45 Edited by: SammyullJackson on 13/07/2010 22:02:29
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Kovcher Staklinch I don't understand why this thread is still open. I thought CCP mentioned rumour isn't allowed? I don't see any CCP confirming this rumour so why is it still open?
Isn't it obvious? This isn't a rumor. CCP said that learnings were a mistake and the best solution would be to get rid of them. We're just discussing about what they've said.
For you and everyone else who thought this was a proof... pwnt.
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Namira Sable
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:07:00 -
[624]
But if you remove learning skills how will players train at different rates? Surely all characters are not equally capable of learning new things?
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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:14:00 -
[625]
Re: SammyullJackson
As bad as I've had it the past two days in real life, thanks for the laugh!
And kudos on the twist of name.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:15:00 -
[626]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 13/07/2010 22:15:50
Originally by: Namira Sable But if you remove learning skills how will players train at different rates? Surely all characters are not equally capable of learning new things?
1. Implants 2. Remaps
I guess 90% of the playerbase has all learning skills (except charisma) at 5/4 anyway so there's not that much difference between them what this is concerned.
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:59:00 -
[627]
didn't read the threadnaught, but I'm here to make a simple observation
1. Dev posted "Speculation not allowed/appreciated" yet this thread lives. 2. Links have been posted to Devs saying that they don't like learning skills (video) but weren't sure how to fix. 3. Then they release a new system that permits application by players of skillpoints ...
Where's the mystery here folks?
Maybe someone should draw a picture ....
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Heroldyn Yhamad
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Posted - 2010.07.13 23:04:00 -
[628]
Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 23:05:18 Copying this over from the closed thread:
Originally by: Myself
It would possibly be good for EVE if Learning Skills were remove but I see no way how CCP could do that in a way that would not profit the people who haven¦t learned them and so would be unfair to thoose who have. (refering to +10 base to stats). Would be a gain to every Player, but less a gain to thoose who had learned the Learning Skills as compared to thoose who hadn`t.
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Noun Verber
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.13 23:06:00 -
[629]
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist didn't read the threadnaught, but I'm here to make a simple observation
1. Dev posted "Speculation not allowed/appreciated" yet this thread lives. 2. Links have been posted to Devs saying that they don't like learning skills (video) but weren't sure how to fix. 3. Then they release a new system that permits application by players of skillpoints ...
Where's the mystery here folks?
Maybe someone should draw a picture ....
close enough?
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.13 23:11:00 -
[630]
Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 23:05:18 Copying this over from the closed thread:
Originally by: Myself
It would possibly be good for EVE if Learning Skills were remove but I see no way how CCP could do that in a way that would not profit the people who haven¦t learned them and so would be unfair to thoose who have. (refering to +10 base to stats). Would be a gain to every Player, but less a gain to thoose who had learned the Learning Skills as compared to thoose who hadn`t.
Except that the people who didnt train all learnings would have less points to redistribute, going on the (possibly false) assumption that SP's would be redistributed.
And since everything in this thread is rumors, assumptions and speculation, it remains to be seen if and how CCP will go about it. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
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Alias Hentrah
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:08:00 -
[631]
Sure, the whole thing sounds really nice - I too, would be happy to spend my 3.4M sp, that I spent on learning skills, on something else -, but the whole thing just gives a big wet smelly bag of **** to the game's balance! In real life, you have to learn how to learn, how to concentrate, how to think, how to comminicate (sell yourself) with others; why - oh why?! - wouldn't be the same in a game where you need to learn as much book as much you should in elementary school + high school + university/collage + other schools. It would be easier for new players, yes. And if you get your used sp relocated thats nice too. But the whole thing is no more than a carebear idea. If you don't like the system as it is now, go play WoW, there you can buy your skills as long as you have the money for it.
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Ohhh Matron
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:05:00 -
[632]
Edited by: Ohhh Matron on 14/07/2010 16:04:50 If this speculation comes true then good ol' CCP, always trying to suck up to the new customer with the attention span of a gnat.
Existing customers? Who cares, plenty more eager kids that want to pay the same money month after month.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:05:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Alias Hentrah Sure, the whole thing sounds really nice - I too, would be happy to spend my 3.4M sp, that I spent on learning skills, on something else -, but the whole thing just gives a big wet smelly bag of **** to the game's balance! In real life, you have to learn how to learn, how to concentrate, how to think, how to comminicate (sell yourself) with others; why - oh why?! - wouldn't be the same in a game where you need to learn as much book as much you should in elementary school + high school + university/collage + other schools. It would be easier for new players, yes. And if you get your used sp relocated thats nice too. But the whole thing is no more than a carebear idea. If you don't like the system as it is now, go play WoW, there you can buy your skills as long as you have the money for it.
EvE =/= RL Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings.
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REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Vee Raa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:09:00 -
[634]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings.
You're doing it wrong.
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Vexidious
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:21:00 -
[635]
Originally by: Vee Raa
Originally by: Jasdemi
Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings.
You're doing it wrong.
There are many (including at least one CCP dev) that would say that he is doing it right.
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Vee Raa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:24:00 -
[636]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings.
bolded the important part for you
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:30:00 -
[637]
Originally by: Vexidious
Originally by: Vee Raa
Originally by: Jasdemi
Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings.
You're doing it wrong.
There are many (including at least one CCP dev) that would say that he is doing it right.
He's most deffinately doing it wrong ... if you use the worst training order and dont use implants at all, it takes 46 days for 5/4 from account start.
If you plug in some skills to be able to fly something to run up to l2's in, and or mine at near retriever speed, it takes a whooping 3 days longer if you plan your toon a little.
========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Vexidious
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:44:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Ressiv
Originally by: Vexidious
Originally by: Vee Raa
Originally by: Jasdemi
Games exist to have fun, not sitting in a station for 3 months and playing other games while your character trains learnings.
You're doing it wrong.
There are many (including at least one CCP dev) that would say that he is doing it right.
He's most deffinately doing it wrong ... if you use the worst training order and dont use implants at all, it takes 46 days for 5/4 from account start.
If you plug in some skills to be able to fly something to run up to l2's in, and or mine at near retriever speed, it takes a whooping 3 days longer if you plan your toon a little.
Two things:
1) 46 or so days is still pretty bad for a new player. 2) New players aren't too likely to be have an optimized skill plan from day 1.
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Heroldyn Yhamad
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:49:00 -
[639]
It does not mean that new players need to do nothing for 46 days. They can first train basic skill set for 3-4 days and fly Missions, Mine, do whatever while training the Learning Skills.
And quite frankly I don¦t buy that you are all so concerned about the new Players :) Maybe more driven by the interest of a free Stat Boost |
Vexidious
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:30:00 -
[640]
Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad It does not mean that new players need to do nothing for 46 days. They can first train basic skill set for 3-4 days and fly Missions, Mine, do whatever while training the Learning Skills.
True, but basic mining and L1 missions aren't really all that interesting or worthwhile to do for that long, and they won't have the skills for anything else for about 2 months.
Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad And quite frankly I don¦t buy that you are all so concerned about the new Players :) Maybe more driven by the interest of a free Stat Boost
Whether or not a person has other motives does not make the new player experience anything other than terrible, nor does it make the learning skills a good idea. Nice try at avoiding the point, though.
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Heroldyn Yhamad
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:39:00 -
[641]
Originally by: Vexidious
True, but basic mining and L1 missions aren't really all that interesting or worthwhile to do for that long, and they won't have the skills for anything else for about 2 months.
1.5 months. And really that is not a long time. Especially for new players that need to learn the interface and basic mechanics too. Granted, if they really have a lot of free time in their life and play like 8 hours a day it might be a long time then, - But how many People have a life like that ?. |
Vexidious
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:48:00 -
[642]
Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad
Originally by: Vexidious
True, but basic mining and L1 missions aren't really all that interesting or worthwhile to do for that long, and they won't have the skills for anything else for about 2 months.
1.5 months. And really that is not a long time. Especially for new players that need to learn the interface and basic mechanics too. Granted, if they really have a lot of free time in their life and play like 8 hours a day it might be a long time then, - But how many People have a life like that ?.
1.5 months before they can start training the skills required for L2 missions, advanced mining, exploration, or whatever. 2 months is likely a best case scenario for when they will actually be ready to do something more interesting than L1 missions or mining in a frigate, and for many things it could actually take much longer.
And even if a person were only to play for 1 hour per day (a ridiculously low number for most MMO players) that would still be around 60 hours on L1 missioning or frigate mining. And trust me, it does not take close to that long for even the dumbest capsuleer to learn everything there is to know about those activities, and become exceptionally bored with them.
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Heroldyn Yhamad
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:58:00 -
[643]
Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 14/07/2010 20:59:05
Originally by: Vexidious
1.5 months before they can start training the skills required for L2 missions, advanced mining, exploration, or whatever. 2 months is likely a best case scenario for when they will actually be ready to do something more interesting than L1 missions or mining in a frigate, and for many things it could actually take much longer.
And even if a person were only to play for 1 hour per day (a ridiculously low number for most MMO players) that would still be around 60 hours on L1 missioning or frigate mining. And trust me, it does not take close to that long for even the dumbest capsuleer to learn everything there is to know about those activities, and become exceptionally bored with them.
Well then maybe we perceive time differently but in my oppionion 60 hours is not a very long time for "noobiesh" Activities in eve. Also you portrait it like this would somehow shut the skill system down. The player can at any time inject smaller skills in between. Specially since at the beginning you don¦t need the skills at the higher Level.
tl;dr: from my point of View 60 days are over soon enough and new players have enough todo within that time that doesn`t require alot of other skills. |
Vee Raa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:03:00 -
[644]
For some reason i think you're mixing up new characters with new players.
Maybe it's just a crusade from Character farmers.
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:04:00 -
[645]
I think if CCP could reduce the churn in new players (and removing learning skills would be a great first step in doing that), then maybe they could devote more attention to things older characters appear to care more about (on this forum at least).
CCP is stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. They can't risk making bold changes to the game without having older characters running riot on the forums about the game turning into Hello Kitty Island Adventures or some nonsense. IMO, CCP is forced to play things very conservatively, and that means new shinies every dev cycle ot two and very little tinkering with core gameplay/sacred cows.
It's probable CCP will just hold steady with EVE anyway. After all it has enjoyed more or less continuous, modest growth, with its top heavy population of vets plus alts. Maybe in their next MMO (WoD), CCP will avoid the situation EVE is in now. |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:34:00 -
[646]
22 pages based on no actual information at all.
Well played OP. Well played indeed.
10/10
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:39:00 -
[647]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 14/07/2010 21:47:14
Originally by: Hainnz They can't risk making bold changes to the game without having older characters running riot on the forums about the game turning into Hello Kitty Island Adventures or some nonsense.
I actually think they're overestimating the effect it may have. I don't know if you've ever read the thread about the introduction of tier 2 learning skills - part of old playerbase was ranting about it just like they do now, o.a. "that skilling already was so fast". And still EVE is steadily (but very slowly) growing.
There's a principle that the more you invest into a game, the less likely you're leaving when it changes in a way you don't like. That's valid for more things than just games btw. So I don't think there doesn't need to be that much concern about this. In the end we'll all get some SP reimbursed, that can't possibly hurt. Some may grumble and then continue doing what they're always doing. No one will miss the learning skills after a while and no new player will possibly want them back if they read about them.
Next to that there's a lot more things that are far more serious than how people would respond to the removal of learning skills that CCP should worry about. Actually it's just a minor thing that hardly effects the day to day gameplay experience at all, only that of new players.
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:47:00 -
[648]
I see the mods locked another learning skill thread, though not this one.
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Kalliste Maldoran
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Posted - 2010.07.15 00:00:00 -
[649]
HereÆs an idea using others as a base and knowing what I know from playing other RPG games.
òRemove the learning skills. òCredit the player with the skill points to assign as they decide. (keeps the Vets happy) òGive each player 50 Stat points to assign to any stats they want with a max at 21. (with +5 implants its max 26 just like it is in the game atm, correct me if IÆm wrong I donÆt have max skills and +5 implants and IÆm at work ) òAs each player starts with most stats at either, 6, 7 or 8 depending on your ancestry or bloodline heritage choices, spending the 50 points you could get 3 skills up to 21 quite easily. òIncrease the learning speed by 10% (same as the learning skill)
At New Character creation add a page to set up Stats. When assigning stat point have it show the skill points per hour next to it, for any skills that use this as a primary. And when you hover or select the Stat have it show what kind of skills it will affect. (Combat, trade, industry, leadership, Support skills)
This will help the new player decide where he would like to spend the points. Vets will already have an idea on what is best spent where.
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migwar
The New Era
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Posted - 2010.07.15 01:00:00 -
[650]
I for one didn't even start training learning skills until after the first 25 days or so..
I was to interested in getting into a bigger ship and shooing bigger npcs etc and getting to level III missions when i started..
Bigger was better when I was around back in the day... most new players think wow thats a great big ship, then they see something bigger and wanna be in that.. learning just slows the process of people who play for the visuals and for the pew pew be it PVE or PVP...
my 2 cents.
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.15 04:45:00 -
[651]
Edited by: Arkanor on 15/07/2010 04:47:04
Originally by: Vee Raa For some reason i think you're mixing up new characters with new players.
Maybe it's just a crusade from Character farmers.
Character farmers have an optimized formula for getting new alts trained up the fastest. New players aren't likely to have this.
The learning skills are quite simply poor game design. The introduction should be the portion of the game where you are trying to "wow" them, not give them a sense of hopelessness. This is all the learning skills accomplish. Is removing them likely to make anyone quit? No. Is leaving them in going to result in a huge new player turnover? Yes, and we already know it does.
Would I like to have my learning SP back? Sure. I would also fully support their removal with no refund whatsoever. They need to go, period.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:26:00 -
[652]
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 15/07/2010 18:28:15 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 15/07/2010 18:27:10
Originally by: Kalliste Maldoran
òGive each player 50 Stat points to assign to any stats they want with a max at 21. (with +5 implants its max 26 just like it is in the game atm, correct me if IÆm wrong I donÆt have max skills and +5 implants and IÆm at work )
With 5/5 and +5 implant i would be sitting at least 32 probably 33 perception with my maxed out remap. (15 base + 10 skills + 5 implant)* 1.1 learning. Sitting at 30.8 with 5/4 and +4 implant.
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Sadian
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:08:00 -
[653]
Quote: Is removing them likely to make anyone quit? No.
I would go.It would signal a radical MIND SET change of game management and players like me can read the writing on the wall. No big deal there are other games to play but I don't play first person shooters for a reason. It would be giving yet another carrot to the something for nothing cookie cutter character crowd who grew up on games like WoW. The next thing that crowd will whine about is how long it takes to train skills to level 4 and 5.
Quote: Is leaving them in going to result in a huge new player turnover? Yes, and we already know it does.
I can't believe you really have the gall to say that people quit because of learning skills! Lack of PvE content is Eve Onlines real achilles heal and everyone knows it. I might not be so skeptical of what you wrote if you offered some proof. And like someone else said please quit pretending you care about new player retention. YOU want shorter training times for all the skills. That's all there is to any of this.
I'm Sadian - and I didn't train learning skills when I first started playing until someone told me I was doing it all wrong
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Kalliste Maldoran
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Posted - 2010.07.16 01:06:00 -
[654]
Edited by: Kalliste Maldoran on 16/07/2010 01:08:34 Edited by: Kalliste Maldoran on 16/07/2010 01:06:27
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 15/07/2010 18:28:15 Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 15/07/2010 18:27:10
Originally by: Kalliste Maldoran
òGive each player 50 Stat points to assign to any stats they want with a max at 21. (with +5 implants its max 26 just like it is in the game atm, correct me if IÆm wrong I donÆt have max skills and +5 implants and IÆm at work )
With 5/5 and +5 implant i would be sitting at least 32 probably 33 perception with my maxed out remap. (15 base + 10 skills + 5 implant)* 1.1 learning. Sitting at 30.8 with 5/4 and +4 implant.
Thanks for that, I had trouble finding out what the starting stats were. That would change the base amount slightly. So that would make the max stat at 28. So we could increase the 50 to 60 (no implant). And the max changed to 28.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar U-208
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Posted - 2010.07.16 02:03:00 -
[655]
Originally by: Chribba Don't forget they will double the starting ISK if you send it to CCP when creating a char.
Proof Chribba is both a scammer and a CCP employee.
~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements! |
oldmanst4r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.16 02:30:00 -
[656]
What I find funny about this thread is all the people prophesying doom and that EVE will turn in to an "instant gratification" game.
You know what my friends who don't play EVE say when I tell them I have a skill in my queue that takes 2 weeks to train. They say something along the lines of "OMIGOSH why do you play that game?? TWO WHOLE WEEKS for ONE skill?? I could never wait THAT long." They aren't really hysterical but you know, it's just an example.
Removing learning skills is not going to all of the sudden flood the game with noobs in capitals.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Xorv
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Posted - 2010.07.16 02:44:00 -
[657]
If Learning Skills are so great lets add another skill. We'll call it "Childhood Development" and make it the prerequisite to getting Learning skills and attributes above 5. Takes 6 months to complete the training. That would make EVE so much more fun and add real "depth" to the game!
Seriously CCP just get rid of this garbage.
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.16 03:30:00 -
[658]
Edited by: Arkanor on 16/07/2010 03:31:58
Originally by: Sadian please quit pretending you care about new player retention. YOU want shorter training times for all the skills. That's all there is to any of this.
I run one account, I have the learnings to 5/4, and stated I would support the removal with no SP refund. So no, you're very wrong.
Encouraging players to not play the game their first month is bad design, it adds nothing to the player experience.
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Kingofpewpew
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Posted - 2010.07.16 10:04:00 -
[659]
I support this so please remove them CCP... I felt I had to do learning skills in order to compete with others first and before training anything else and it sucks
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Urgg Boolean
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Posted - 2010.07.16 12:20:00 -
[660]
I see some people saying that the Learning tree of skills is optional and offers more choices for players. I think this is wrong for a few reasons.
1) The de facto standard when applying to any decent corp is 10 million SP. Getting to that magic number happens much faster if you have trained Learning skills; this does not feel like a choice to me. Furthermore, I have applied for corps that require Learning skills at 5/4, such that if they want recruits to train something to fulfill a role, you won't take forever to train it: mandatory by decree = no choice.
2) The sooner you get to 5/4, the greater the potential time savings, assuming you hang around long enough to train things like Gallente Carrier or Large T2 Guns. When you realize these time savings, you will see that Learning skills are really not a choice, but a necessary step in your planning. It's like saying that warming up the copy machine is a choice : sure you could choose not to warm it up, but it'll make substandard copies...
Skills take a very long time; too long in my opinion. I think people kid themselves in terms of this being a satisfying experience. It's not real; you aren't really learning anything. All that really happens is that a timer ticks away and unlocks skills and buffs (etc) based upon how you spend your training time. Real life skills take methodical practice and time, and are definitely the source of pride, feelings of accomplishment, and positive self esteem. My self esteem is not increased, nor do I feel a sense of accomplishment or pride via EvE skills. The only reason I do skills is to unlock cool game features and functionality. The Learning skills only get in the way of that.
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.16 12:38:00 -
[661]
Originally by: Urgg Boolean 1) The de facto standard when applying to any decent corp is 10 million SP. Getting to that magic number happens much faster if you have trained Learning skills; this does not feel like a choice to me. Furthermore, I have applied for corps that require Learning skills at 5/4, such that if they want recruits to train something to fulfill a role, you won't take forever to train it: mandatory by decree = no choice.
This sounds ok, but actualy, you are pre- or assuming that everybody wants to play the game in the same way. (I'll get to my point below)
Quote:
2) The sooner you get to 5/4, the greater the potential time savings, assuming you hang around long enough to train things like Gallente Carrier or Large T2 Guns. When you realize these time savings, you will see that Learning skills are really not a choice, but a necessary step in your planning. It's like saying that warming up the copy machine is a choice : sure you could choose not to warm it up, but it'll make substandard copies...
Same thing here.
Quote:
Skills take a very long time; too long in my opinion. I think people kid themselves in terms of this being a satisfying experience. It's not real; you aren't really learning anything. All that really happens is that a timer ticks away and unlocks skills and buffs (etc) based upon how you spend your training time. Real life skills take methodical practice and time, and are definitely the source of pride, feelings of accomplishment, and positive self esteem. My self esteem is not increased, nor do I feel a sense of accomplishment or pride via EvE skills. The only reason I do skills is to unlock cool game features and functionality. The Learning skills only get in the way of that.
Point being: If everybody can fly a carrier in one year, this game gets utterly boring. This is comming from a player that has a toon with about 1 year to go for carrier, and not complaining one single bit about those tickers ticking away.
If I wouldve seen it all in a year or two, it gets dull fast. This argument leads to being able to buy SP when taken to the absurd.
If anything, give the 'Learning' skill an extra 100% bonus to training learning category skills @ lvl5, and let people choose when to train them instead of forcing to do so at account start. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.16 20:48:00 -
[662]
Originally by: Kingofpewpew I support this so please remove them CCP... I felt I had to do learning skills in order to compete with others first and before training anything else and it sucks
Had exactly the same newbie experience. Learning skills were like a doom loop for me. They took extremely long to train and if I didn't, I'd waste a lot of skill points. That's the only reason why I left back in early 2009. In 1 year or so I managed to come back and pulled it off. CCP has lost over 1 year of subs from me alone, all only due to the learnings.
Maybe my thinking was "wrong", but this is how I felt of the learning skills as a newbie.
It's no big deal for me if CCP decides to keep the learning skills, mine are maxed (except charisma) already, but they might see an increase in subs thanks to this change, I think.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.16 20:50:00 -
[663]
Originally by: Ressiv
Point being: If everybody can fly a carrier in one year, this game gets utterly boring. This is comming from a player that has a toon with about 1 year to go for carrier, and not complaining one single bit about those tickers ticking away.
If I wouldve seen it all in a year or two, it gets dull fast. This argument leads to being able to buy SP when taken to the absurd.
If anything, give the 'Learning' skill an extra 100% bonus to training learning category skills @ lvl5, and let people choose when to train them instead of forcing to do so at account start.
Removing learning skills and giving everyone max points before remap and implants would only make training a new character for a carrier 2 months or so shorter then the fastest way you can do it now. The first months where you decided if you want to keep playing Eve.....
This is about the new player experience. If you want they can add the time back by increasing the train time multiplayer on capital skills if your worried about people getting them to quickly.
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.16 21:56:00 -
[664]
Why are you guys still discussing this? Its been 23 pages and CCP has said nothing. There has been no devblog. No Nothing. Can't you guys take a hint? Learning skills aren't going anywhere, atleast in the near future. So talking about what you would do if they removed learning skills is as about as productive as me discussing what I would do If I got Sandra Oh in the sac: ie: Not at all, because it isn't gonna happen
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Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.16 22:15:00 -
[665]
Originally by: democrities Why are you guys still discussing this? Its been 23 pages and CCP has said nothing. There has been no devblog. No Nothing. Can't you guys take a hint? Learning skills aren't going anywhere, atleast in the near future. So talking about what you would do if they removed learning skills is as about as productive as me discussing what I would do If I got Sandra Oh in the sac: ie: Not at all, because it isn't gonna happen
We'll keep this thread open until the late future then. Maybe someone will suggest some epic solution regarding this problem until then. Am I right, wannabe-troll?
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Hoinus
Gallente Duty Free Exchange
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Posted - 2010.07.16 22:22:00 -
[666]
What OP suggested ain't fair... Unless I get all my SP spent on learning skills back and lots of bonus SP I would have gained for having the purposed max learning baselined from the start. So yes, if we get SP based on a formula of what our current learning skills is and the skills we had trained.
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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.17 07:15:00 -
[667]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities Why are you guys still discussing this? Its been 23 pages and CCP has said nothing. There has been no devblog. No Nothing. Can't you guys take a hint? Learning skills aren't going anywhere, atleast in the near future. So talking about what you would do if they removed learning skills is as about as productive as me discussing what I would do If I got Sandra Oh in the sac: ie: Not at all, because it isn't gonna happen
We'll keep this thread open until the late future then. Maybe someone will suggest some epic solution regarding this problem until then. Am I right, wannabe-troll?
Im just beig realistic. Learning skills arent going anywhere
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari Intercision
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Posted - 2010.07.17 07:25:00 -
[668]
Originally by: Deizel 4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
I wouldn't mind this at all.
However, they (CCP) shouldn't have had that "no rumors" thread unstickied.
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JC Anderson
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.17 09:58:00 -
[669]
Edited by: JC Anderson on 17/07/2010 10:04:27 Yeah there is one thing to keep in mind on the topic of CCP responding.
Every morning they close threads along with a comment as to why. Many are closed after a post saying not to post unfounded rumors. In one day alone they closed multiple threads about Titans being removed from game, wormholes being removed from game, T3's being removed from game, and one or two other things.
Quoting CCP Wrangler on just a few of the closed threads,
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Is this some sort of holiday where the idea is to post all strange and baseless rumors you possibly can?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We're not closing down wormholes.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Did we say that in your dreams or something? Because it wasn't the real world.
It was on that day that they added the "Unfounded Rumors are not welcome post"
And on that day, this thread existed as it had for quite a few days before that. Yet CCP Wrangler never touched it.
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.17 10:25:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes truncated
I understand that they are a drag, felt like that myself for a few minutes untill I thought about it, and realised that in 3 days, I could get all the skills to do what I could realisticly do in the first 1.5 month, and learn the game.
I'm not saying that I did it better or anything at all, please do not take it that way.
What I mean is: By removing learning skills you remove patience = reward from the game to a large extend. You make it a 'train cybernetics, sell PLEX, get expensive implants, and be done' thing. I fail to see how that helps new players get into the game faster.
If anything, it will make the gap between older player with a ****ton of ISK and new players with not enough $$$ to convert them to ISK (and implants) larger.
My proposal, again, is add a 20% per level bonus on the Learning skill when training learning skills. This will in effect create the same situation as training the learning skills in the training bonus, and will leave the new player with the choise when to do them.
Yes, they still need to train them, but they are not forced to either do it in the bonus, or take ages. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
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Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.17 10:48:00 -
[671]
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities Why are you guys still discussing this? Its been 23 pages and CCP has said nothing. There has been no devblog. No Nothing. Can't you guys take a hint? Learning skills aren't going anywhere, atleast in the near future. So talking about what you would do if they removed learning skills is as about as productive as me discussing what I would do If I got Sandra Oh in the sac: ie: Not at all, because it isn't gonna happen
We'll keep this thread open until the late future then. Maybe someone will suggest some epic solution regarding this problem until then. Am I right, wannabe-troll?
Im just beig realistic. Learning skills arent going anywhere
Not really realistic. If all this was just a rumor, CCP would've closed at day one. Learnings will be removed very soon, don't worry.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
JC Anderson
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.17 14:00:00 -
[672]
If they do remove them, the main issue will be HOW they implement the change.
Out of curiosity I went into Eve-Mon and created a new plan with all of my current skills while leaving my learning skills out of the plan. I also left my cybernetics out and attributes at base original values as they were when I started.
Keep in mind I started this character in 2006.
Total training time without my basic learning skills to 5 and advanced to 4 AND without implants calculated to be about 8 and 1/4 years.
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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.17 14:30:00 -
[673]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Kingofpewpew I support this so please remove them CCP... I felt I had to do learning skills in order to compete with others first and before training anything else and it sucks
Had exactly the same newbie experience. Learning skills were like a doom loop for me. They took extremely long to train and if I didn't, I'd waste a lot of skill points. That's the only reason why I left back in early 2009.
Meanwhile, in this thread, Jasdemi is quoted as saying,
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 14/07/2010 16:42:00
Originally by: Pantload
And didn't you swear off trolling and turn pro-learning skills the other day?
It's totally another thread mate. Don't mix them up.
As for my "low" SP amount, the last 2 year were really busy due to a lot of school and work. You know, stuff you do in real life to make a living. Not selling alliances/corps in a internet spaceships game. Real stuff, which you're probably unaware of.
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: democrities Im just beig realistic. Learning skills arent going anywhere
Not really realistic. If all this was just a rumor, CCP would've closed at day one. Learnings will be removed very soon, don't worry.
According to this locked thread, CCP apparently stated their current views on the subject. Meanwhile, Jasdemi has yet to present any evidence stating just how "soon" these events are to transpire but continues banging the gong daily...
Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 17/07/2010 10:04:27 Yeah there is one thing to keep in mind on the topic of CCP responding.
Every morning they close threads along with a comment as to why. Many are closed after a post saying not to post unfounded rumors. In one day alone they closed multiple threads about Titans being removed from game, wormholes being removed from game, T3's being removed from game, and one or two other things.
Quoting CCP Wrangler on just a few of the closed threads,
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Is this some sort of holiday where the idea is to post all strange and baseless rumors you possibly can?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We're not closing down wormholes.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Did we say that in your dreams or something? Because it wasn't the real world.
It was on that day that they added the "Unfounded Rumors are not welcome post"
And on that day, this thread existed as it had for quite a few days before that. Yet CCP Wrangler never touched it.
Apparently CCP Zymurgist felt fit to lock the second attached thread I posted that discussed this same manner and using the "Unfounded rumors" line. Perhaps this current running thread is a psychological experiment for CCP to see how their future fan base will pan out: those that ~need~ the Learning skills removed to survive _or_ the rest of us that have avoided or dealt with them and been on our training ways.
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JC Anderson
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.17 14:33:00 -
[674]
Edited by: JC Anderson on 17/07/2010 14:35:54
Originally by: Guttripper Apparently CCP Zymurgist felt fit to lock the second attached thread I posted that discussed this same manner and using the "Unfounded rumors" line. Perhaps this current running thread is a psychological experiment for CCP to see how their future fan base will pan out: those that ~need~ the Learning skills removed to survive _or_ the rest of us that have avoided or dealt with them and been on our training ways.
LOL..
Hmmm... Sadly that doesn't sound too out of place on these forums.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.18 09:18:00 -
[675]
<input reply here>
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Hemp Invader
EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.18 09:24:00 -
[676]
Aw, we got it well beyond the 21st page and no official response? need more posts
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Bilko Bobski
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Posted - 2010.07.18 09:26:00 -
[677]
Possibly the solution is not to remove learning skills, nor to replace them. But instead to block them.
The real problem isn't whether the older players like them or not; if you've got into the game, you either chose to take learning skills or not to, and I doubt many really mind either way.
The problem is that new players feel like they need to have learning skills straight away to avoid wasting SP; and so they don't get into the combat, they don't get into industry and they end up stuck in a relatively poor ship for their first few weeks.
My solution is simple - while you have the 100% learning bonus, you cannot learn the learning skills.
This effectively means that new players are actually forced into playing the different aspects of the game; hopefully getting hooked on it and then after they've got used to EVE and decided to stick with it, they can decide whether they want to get any learning skills or more functional skills.
To me, this avoids disadvantaging those who spent their time on learning skills, it prevents new players getting bogged down in learning skills before they learn to play, and it would help to remove the stigma that learning skills are necessary to play EVE properly.
Comments would be really great, thanks for reading it.
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Lefty Twotimes
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:14:00 -
[678]
Ahh someone with a new idea. Not to bad Bilko. It does meet some of the concerns of both sides of this discussion. Not sure if it is the best way to go about it but a clearly inventive idea to the problem.
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:19:00 -
[679]
Edited by: Ressiv on 19/07/2010 18:20:06
Originally by: Bilko Bobski
My solution is simple - while you have the 100% learning bonus, you cannot learn the learning skills.
The only thing that would accomplish is that all new players have a HUGE disadvantage not being able to up their stats at all during that period. We can safely assume that they do not have the isk to buy implants yet, and no other way to avoid the gap in training speed after they are out of their training bonus.
The net result is they would have to spend at least 3 months on them, and thus fall into a boring 2 months after the training bonus expired. I dont see how they benefit from that. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Malachi256
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:42:00 -
[680]
Originally by: Bilko Bobski Possibly the solution is not to remove learning skills, nor to replace them. But instead to block them.
The real problem isn't whether the older players like them or not; if you've got into the game, you either chose to take learning skills or not to, and I doubt many really mind either way.
The problem is that new players feel like they need to have learning skills straight away to avoid wasting SP; and so they don't get into the combat, they don't get into industry and they end up stuck in a relatively poor ship for their first few weeks.
My solution is simple - while you have the 100% learning bonus, you cannot learn the learning skills.
This effectively means that new players are actually forced into playing the different aspects of the game; hopefully getting hooked on it and then after they've got used to EVE and decided to stick with it, they can decide whether they want to get any learning skills or more functional skills.
To me, this avoids disadvantaging those who spent their time on learning skills, it prevents new players getting bogged down in learning skills before they learn to play, and it would help to remove the stigma that learning skills are necessary to play EVE properly.
Comments would be really great, thanks for reading it.
Perhaps a modification of this could be to only allow learning skills to be trainable once you hit certain total SP milestones. So you can train level 1 in the basic learning skills immediately. Level 2 once you hit 100,000 SP, level 3 at 250,000, etc.
Ultimately, though, this removes the whole cost/reward analysis from them. It's stupid that you have to force people to spend 8 hours training up basic gameplay skills instead of working on their next memory point for 2 days.
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Corozan Aspinall
Party Time Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:50:00 -
[681]
Edited by: Corozan Aspinall on 19/07/2010 18:53:19
Originally by: Bilko Bobski Possibly the solution is not to remove learning skills, nor to replace them. But instead to block them.
The real problem isn't whether the older players like them or not; if you've got into the game, you either chose to take learning skills or not to, and I doubt many really mind either way.
The problem is that new players feel like they need to have learning skills straight away to avoid wasting SP; and so they don't get into the combat, they don't get into industry and they end up stuck in a relatively poor ship for their first few weeks.
My solution is simple - while you have the 100% learning bonus, you cannot learn the learning skills.
This effectively means that new players are actually forced into playing the different aspects of the game; hopefully getting hooked on it and then after they've got used to EVE and decided to stick with it, they can decide whether they want to get any learning skills or more functional skills.
To me, this avoids disadvantaging those who spent their time on learning skills, it prevents new players getting bogged down in learning skills before they learn to play, and it would help to remove the stigma that learning skills are necessary to play EVE properly.
Comments would be really great, thanks for reading it.
Good point/s. Altho I think learning skills are somewhat over-rated beyond lv 3.
They don't seem to make any significant difference after that imho. Eve mon suggests I might at best save a few days over the course of a year by training them all to lv 4 from a mixture of 3 and 4.
I say, its not worth bothering about. Max skill points per hr is what? 2700~ with a 365 day plan and complimentary remap and all lv 5 learning and +5's? I'm humming along at 2300 sp per hour on average with +4's, a less than optimal attribute setup and a mix of lv 3 and lv 4 learning. I'm not worried about saving a day or two between now and July 2011.
New players should train them all to level 3 and get a set of +4's asap then just get on with the game. I chose not to even spend my 1.6m sp x2 boost on learning skills, I went straight for those industry and science lv 5's and got on with making isk! Those seeking to get blown up frequently might want to hold off on the implants and train learning skills to lv 5 instead I guess?
edit: Oh and yeah I think ccp should just rip them out entirely and re-emburse those sp's to those who have them. I'm sure the majority of players would rather have some 5m skill points back to spend on other stuff and new players get their x2 bonus time to really mould their character quickly and get in to the game much faster instead, which is much more valuable imho.
Give ever new player the additional attributes they would have got from learning from the beginning (to dramatically speed up their skill training initially) and do the same, plus the sp re-embursement AND a free remap for exhisting players. Job done?
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Mohenna
Caldari Knights of the Dark
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Posted - 2010.07.20 09:18:00 -
[682]
After respeccing, the learning skills take quite short to train. I'm going to do the second charisma to 5 when I respec for command ships and leadership in a couple of months first. 10 or so days is nothing when you have this kind of timeframes.
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Urgg Boolean
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Posted - 2010.07.20 14:08:00 -
[683]
My newly created alt is about to use up the last few training bonus skill points (1.6 million cap). My next statement is surely fodder for the "anti-instant-gratification" crowd, but here goes anyway: doubled training speed feels like the correct speed. I'm really disheartened that I just got the Learning skills trained (pretty much), and the training time of everything beyond this point is about to double...
When I first started the game I thought it was great : train while you sleep. My perception now is that the training speed is ridiculously slow. All of us have realized how long the higher end skills take to fully maximize performance, keeping in mind facts like the ability to undock a battleship is no where near enough skill to run L4 missions, for example. I'm now working on Carriers, and getting to the point of undocking seems reasonable. Then add in all the support skills needed to actually perform in a Carrier, and I think my training queue is packed for the next year at the very least. This seems odd to me as I have enough legitimately earned ISK to buy, fit and rig several carriers, but due to unreasonably extensive training times and massive quantities of support skills needed to make the jump to capital ships, I still can't realistically fly a carrier for many, many, more months...
It makes me realize how miserably slow, laborious, and tedious EvE's method of skills actually is. It is a valid assumption that EVERYONE is doing EVERYTHING to maximize training rate, i.e., Learning skills, implants, and the correctly timed remap. All the effort to minimize training time means nobody is happy leaving training times as they are. Nobody is happy without a set of L4 implants, and many expend resources to acquire a set of L5s. Training cycles of literally years are just not realistic for real people with jobs, family, school, church, community, etc, and it has nothing to do with instant gratification, but is a function of balancing all the elements of human life.
For the last 2 years I have taken the attitude of "just play the game, the skills will come in time". At this point, I think the entire skills training system in this game is miserably, terribly, tediously, laboriously, dishearteningly slow. I'm sure you can tell, I'd vote for radical change, like doubling training rates, and I'd bet that if we did that, nobody would want to go back to the skills system we have now. Eliminating the Learning skills and granting players whatever bonuses they offered is a step in the right direction.
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Corozan Aspinall
Party Time Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.20 14:17:00 -
[684]
Originally by: Urgg Boolean My newly created alt is about to use up the last few training bonus skill points (1.6 million cap). My next statement is surely fodder for the "anti-instant-gratification" crowd, but here goes anyway: doubled training speed feels like the correct speed. I'm really disheartened that I just got the Learning skills trained (pretty much), and the training time of everything beyond this point is about to double...
Totally, absolutely, 100% agree. Not sure it will ever change and not clamouring for it to be changed, but the initial 1.6m feels 'right' and is just enough to keep you hanging on waiting for that Rifter license and just enough to make you aware of the limitations of trying to do everything without any focus.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.20 15:32:00 -
[685]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 20/07/2010 15:36:21
Originally by: Urgg Boolean My perception now is that the training speed is ridiculously slow. It is a valid assumption that EVERYONE is doing EVERYTHING to maximize training rate, i.e., Learning skills, implants, and the correctly timed remap. All the effort to minimize training time means nobody is happy leaving training times as they are. I'm sure you can tell, I'd vote for radical change, like doubling training rates, and I'd bet that if we did that, nobody would want to go back to the skills system we have now. Eliminating the Learning skills and granting players whatever bonuses they offered is a step in the right direction.
I agree. People don't train learning skills for fun or to make skilling up "even faster". It's to increase the speed from dead slow to a crawl.
The best way to skill up now is to immediately remap to mem/int, do learning skills and cybernetics for 1.5-2 months, do all int/mem support skills (including the t2 and t3 prereqs) and drones/navigation/social for 6-7 months, then remap to perc/mem and train your tier 2 perc/willpower learning skills to V (they're perc/wil based), weapon and ship skills and finally .. start playing. For all the min/maxers who want to optimize their game time this is the way to get 24+ million SP in your 1st year, and SP = being able to fly ships, use modules effectively.
Imo we should do away with remaps and increase the max learning speed to 4,000 SP/hour. Implants should stay. Learning skills should either be granted (and reimbursed) or given by tutorial missions so they don't interfere with training for things that make you progress to new ships and abilities. |
JC Anderson
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.20 15:33:00 -
[686]
I've never really found training the learning skills to be all that bad timewise. Especially considering how slow everything is after that point.
I haven't created a character since they changed the rate of training on new toons though. So I can't really speak on that point.
But even prior to that I always trained all of the basic learning skills to 5 and all of the advanced to 4 before anything else. It never seemed all that long to me in the long run. |
Corvin Demeter
Caldari Legio XII Fulminata Ferrum 26
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Posted - 2010.07.20 15:36:00 -
[687]
Training skills to enhance training skills is just bad game design for a pvp centric game...end of story.
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Jasdemi
Caldari Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.21 18:03:00 -
[688]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 21/07/2010 18:03:34 *Digging out a serious thread.*
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.07.21 18:09:00 -
[689]
Edited by: Zartrader on 21/07/2010 18:10:22
Originally by: JC Anderson I've never really found training the learning skills to be all that bad timewise. Especially considering how slow everything is after that point.
I haven't created a character since they changed the rate of training on new toons though. So I can't really speak on that point.
But even prior to that I always trained all of the basic learning skills to 5 and all of the advanced to 4 before anything else. It never seemed all that long to me in the long run.
I found the issue is not so much with those of us who know the game or who decided to give it a good try when we started, it's with those who want to get into the game and try it out and may be on the fence.
Learning skills artificially stop player's seeing a lot of the game which is the most dumb thing a game company can do. These skills have arguably lost CCP millions in income (along with the UI)
I've just started an alt and I want to max out learning skills. To me the 30 days I got free (buddy invite from my main) are completely wasted. I would certainly never pay for that. A new player is even less likely to do so.
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Beregga
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Posted - 2010.07.21 18:46:00 -
[690]
Honestly, I don't get where the inflated time estimates of needing to take an entire month, much less three in order to get the learning skills come from. I hit 4/0 in the first two weeks along with most of the basic frigate and mining skills with the help of the training queue. After you hit 4/3 the cost/return ratio likely isn't worthwhile.
I wouldn't mind quicker training times, and would rather see alternate ways of getting those 7 points. But they're not that hard to weave in with other skill development and practice. Especially when you can throw them on the queue and forget about them overnight.
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.21 19:03:00 -
[691]
Edited by: Ressiv on 21/07/2010 19:04:24
Originally by: Beregga Honestly, I don't get where the inflated time estimates of needing to take an entire month, much less three in order to get the learning skills come from. I hit 4/0 in the first two weeks along with most of the basic frigate and mining skills with the help of the training queue. After you hit 4/3 the cost/return ratio likely isn't worthwhile.
I wouldn't mind quicker training times, and would rather see alternate ways of getting those 7 points. But they're not that hard to weave in with other skill development and practice. Especially when you can throw them on the queue and forget about them overnight.
I based my time frame of one month on the worst possible training order (new player, not taking note of which attributes are used for training which learning skill), a non-remapped toon, and 5/4 in mind, with +3 implant set after 3/0
If you plan to play longer then a year, training them to 5/4 will save you quite a lot of training time compared to 5/3. Even the 5/5 scenario would add to that, but as it is impossible to train the advanced learnings to 5 withing the training bonus, and training them outside it will take ~13 days each, the return on training time investment will take a while.
The time frame of 3 months is what it will take you if you start learning the learning skills after the training bonus expires, unless you slam in a +5 set which is kinda not an option for new players, unless they sell PLEX' or are being heavily sponsored.
The simplest sollution to this issue (new player having to do learning first in stead of some relevant PVP/PVE/INDY skills, or suffer the consequences for a loooong time) is to grant 20% training speed to training learning skills per level on the learning skill, only in effect after training bonus expires.
This would give new players the choise on when to them, without simplifying the game and needing to hand out free attributes or upping the skill training speed.
========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
JC Anderson
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.21 20:23:00 -
[692]
Originally by: Zartrader Edited by: Zartrader on 21/07/2010 18:10:22
Originally by: JC Anderson I've never really found training the learning skills to be all that bad timewise. Especially considering how slow everything is after that point.
I haven't created a character since they changed the rate of training on new toons though. So I can't really speak on that point.
But even prior to that I always trained all of the basic learning skills to 5 and all of the advanced to 4 before anything else. It never seemed all that long to me in the long run.
I found the issue is not so much with those of us who know the game or who decided to give it a good try when we started, it's with those who want to get into the game and try it out and may be on the fence.
Learning skills artificially stop player's seeing a lot of the game which is the most dumb thing a game company can do. These skills have arguably lost CCP millions in income (along with the UI)
I've just started an alt and I want to max out learning skills. To me the 30 days I got free (buddy invite from my main) are completely wasted. I would certainly never pay for that. A new player is even less likely to do so.
Yeah I guess I can see your point. Makes sense in that regard.
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Beregga
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Posted - 2010.07.21 20:35:00 -
[693]
Originally by: Ressiv Edited by: Ressiv on 21/07/2010 19:04:24
Originally by: Beregga Honestly, I don't get where the inflated time estimates of needing to take an entire month, much less three in order to get the learning skills come from. I hit 4/0 in the first two weeks along with most of the basic frigate and mining skills with the help of the training queue. After you hit 4/3 the cost/return ratio likely isn't worthwhile.
I wouldn't mind quicker training times, and would rather see alternate ways of getting those 7 points. But they're not that hard to weave in with other skill development and practice. Especially when you can throw them on the queue and forget about them overnight.
I based my time frame of one month on the worst possible training order (new player, not taking note of which attributes are used for training which learning skill), a non-remapped toon, and 5/4 in mind, with +3 implant set after 3/0
If you plan to play longer then a year, training them to 5/4 will save you quite a lot of training time compared to 5/3. Even the 5/5 scenario would add to that, but as it is impossible to train the advanced learnings to 5 withing the training bonus, and training them outside it will take ~13 days each, the return on training time investment will take a while.
The time frame of 3 months is what it will take you if you start learning the learning skills after the training bonus expires, unless you slam in a +5 set which is kinda not an option for new players, unless they sell PLEX' or are being heavily sponsored.
The simplest sollution to this issue (new player having to do learning first in stead of some relevant PVP/PVE/INDY skills, or suffer the consequences for a loooong time) is to grant 20% training speed to training learning skills per level on the learning skill, only in effect after training bonus expires.
This would give new players the choise on when to them, without simplifying the game and needing to hand out free attributes or upping the skill training speed.
A key mechanic throughout EVE is non-linear costs for linear improvements. While paying out that training time does eventually pay off, assuming an optimized training plan I'm not convinced that it's the best strategy for new players who won't have an optimized training plan in mind.
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Beregga
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Posted - 2010.07.21 20:43:00 -
[694]
Originally by: Zartrader I've just started an alt and I want to max out learning skills. To me the 30 days I got free (buddy invite from my main) are completely wasted. I would certainly never pay for that. A new player is even less likely to do so.
I'll argue that a new player probably shouldn't be maxing out ANY skills until they know they want to dedicate a large chunk of their playing time to a particular role. 4/3 or 4/4 is easy to get in the first month along with piloting skills.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.07.21 21:48:00 -
[695]
Edited by: Zartrader on 21/07/2010 21:48:35
Originally by: Beregga
Originally by: Zartrader I've just started an alt and I want to max out learning skills. To me the 30 days I got free (buddy invite from my main) are completely wasted. I would certainly never pay for that. A new player is even less likely to do so.
I'll argue that a new player probably shouldn't be maxing out ANY skills until they know they want to dedicate a large chunk of their playing time to a particular role. 4/3 or 4/4 is easy to get in the first month along with piloting skills.
Yes but there is the issue that new players are told learning skills are crucial (because they are) and it's the only skill set in the game which affects you for the whole of a pilots career.
You can never catch up with the SP's you would have had if you had an optimum plan. And I don't know many new players would even care about an optimum plan until it is too late for them.
From a purely business point of view learning skills are all negative with very little positive at all. Any choice is really an illusion, you have to have them but they provide no new toys to play with or new in game tangible benefits.
They may have made sense when the game started but now, with numerous new skills added since, they just get in the way of enjoying the game.
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offbeatArchon
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Posted - 2010.09.17 18:17:00 -
[696]
Hi, thread-people. I have severe ADHD and could not concentrate long enough to read more than the first page, so please bear with me if I repeat something.
Props to Tripoli - I have used his guide to train 5/5 over 5 accounts. The system that Deizel speculates on, in addition to counteless other posts, is stupid. I think it would cause chaos - what happens when you throw a rookie into a t2 ship that he can't handle? From CCP's side, I think the concern should be all the ragequits by rookies who couldn't handle the loss of a ship costing tens of millions. The time it takes to train learning skills affords time to settle in, learn the ropes. Also, if you don't want to spend time training these skills, then don't: it's your loss. It does not take a lot of time to get 4/4 or even 5/4. I think CCP should add in so-called "Elite Learning Skills" for those who want to put the time into it: you aren't ever obligated to train a skill. Make them 10x multiplier or so.
Those of you QQing about learning skills and wanting them gone "out of fairness," why don't you go write more "personal opinions" in a factual manner, as Deizel did. Who knows, maybe CCP will give you PLEX BPOs and faction MOMs.
Sorry about the wall of text, and o7 to those of you who are against the removal of learning skills. I trust that CCP will do the right thing.
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Veebring Greetings
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Posted - 2010.09.17 20:17:00 -
[697]
Remove learning skills and gain idiots. Simple as that.
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Dusica
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.09.20 09:42:00 -
[698]
mr ccp take down this wall plx |
Lagruna Zegata
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Posted - 2010.09.20 11:30:00 -
[699]
One problem I see with taking out learning skills:
If someone has a lot of training into learnings and the proposed way to remove them is to simply reimburse the learning SP's on other skills, it removes the overall "advantage" of faster training speed for a lifetime beyond just the SP's replaced.
People who suffered a real skills "disadvantage" early on to train faster for the long haul had this concept well-understood for the most part. Why should players who went through this "disadvantage" in their earlier months of playing have this permanent "speed advantage" now taken away from them?
They stuck through the learning grind and stayed with the game regardless. Now we should take away learnings because of the wishes of people not wanting to stay loyal to EVE if they have to sit around and wait for their learnings to finish?
Newer players already have enormous advantages in training options over older players (remaps, can spend your 1.6 million double-speed SP's in anything you want, etc.).
I found plenty of fun things to do when my own learning trained. It's like choosing to go to college or not. Your choice. It adds depth to the game IMO. ~LZ
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ID102034234
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Posted - 2010.09.30 17:56:00 -
[700]
What I'd really like to see is a video of an internal CCP discussion about that matter.^^
I mean I can live with whatever it is (changed or not), but I am very interested in the reasons why they do things a certain way...
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:06:00 -
[701]
I'm so scared of change, if CCP did something to change the game, even if it made the game better, I might **** myself.
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Mike Voltage
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:20:00 -
[702]
Originally by: Ranger 1 I support removing learning skills if...
1: People that trained learning skills are reimbursed the points they spent.
2: All attributes are set back to their original (non-learning skill enhanced) levels.
It's the only way to make it fair for everyone.
I agree on all man "My God -- It's Full of Stars!"
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Adophnil
Dark Reality Unified
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:23:00 -
[703]
I will always support removing learning skills, adding +10 base to all, and a Learning effect to all skills. Good business, good for everyone in Eve. Even bittervets who will enjoy the 3.5m SP to whatever they are training for at the moment.
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Eris Olympian
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:32:00 -
[704]
Screw the learning skills. Let us reimburse the learning skills for skills that we like.
Implants and attribute remapping is good enough way to create competition in skilltraining.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:47:00 -
[705]
Originally by: Lagruna Zegata They stuck through the learning grind and stayed with the game regardless. Now we should take away learnings because of the wishes of people not wanting to stay loyal to EVE if they have to sit around and wait for their learnings to finish?
All MMOs have churn, e.g. even loyal people quit playing. They have to be replaced. There's also the problem of market saturation and market segments. There are a finite number of customers willing to pay to play Eve with feature set X (call it "Classic Eve".) It looks like CCP has decided that the market for people wanting to pay to play "Classic Eve" isn't enough, so CCP is changing the feature set to expand the pool of potential customers.
Quote: Newer players already have enormous advantages in training options over older players (remaps, can spend your 1.6 million double-speed SP's in anything you want, etc.).
New players get remaps and a training bonus to get them into the game/action faster, right? Unfortunately, anyone smart enough to play Eve also realizes that it's "faster" to remap and train learning skills for 2-4 weeks immediately (followed by the drone skills if you're really smart) before remapping into your desired profession, which is the exact opposite of getting them into the game/action faster.
The slower it is for customers to get into the game, the less likely they are to play (and pay for) the game. Which is bad for CCP.
Quote: I found plenty of fun things to do when my own learning trained. It's like choosing to go to college or not. Your choice. It adds depth to the game IMO. ~LZ
Bad analogy. It's more like buying a game, and then not playing the game for a month so that you can play the game faster.
Do new players really want to pay for a game where the smart move is to train the learning skills for a month before training any skills that are actually useful for PvP or PvE? Is that really a good selling point for Eve?
CCP didn't overhaul the new character creation system and add the free remaps and accelerated training bonus on a whim. They did it to attract new players to broaden their subscriber base and to replace churn. The two free remaps have turned the learning skills into a "mandatory" up front grind.
Heck, even WoW has realized that "mandatory" skills are a problem. Blizzard is redoing the talent trees in Cataclysm (Mastery System) because "mandatory" skills took the fun out of skills and character customization.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:12:00 -
[706]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Do new players really want to pay for a game where the smart move is to train the learning skills for a month before training any skills that are actually useful for PvP or PvE? Is that really a good selling point for Eve?
I don't really think it is the smart move to train learning skills exclusively during the first month, I did not max them the first month, I rather mixed them with combat skills and eventually maxed them.
You can't catch up anyway, so finishing learning skills a few days later won't matter, because the vets are waaay ahead anyway. If you start thinking like this you will just end up miserable and not enjoying the game.
The whole SP training over time has it's benefits and drawbacks. I don't see the point in removing learning skills, as it is just another choice in your EVE life you have to make.
I'd rather have CCP hire some more sound devs and give us an option to disable positional sound already :p
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:22:00 -
[707]
An alternative could be to give new players 4/3 in learning skills ( on top of the 100% boost and current skills ) and give all the current active players an equal amount of SP's that they can spend ( should be easy with the new SP reimbursment system ).
That would be pretty fair to everyone and no drama needed and it should temper the newbie urge to train learning skills eraly and so they can focus on other stuff.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:23:00 -
[708]
Originally by: CyberGh0st I don't really think it is the smart move to train learning skills exclusively during the first month, I did not max them the first month, I rather mixed them with combat skills and eventually maxed them.
Unlike you I know it is smart to take care of learning skills first. People who do not train them immediately (actual noobs) are at a disadvantage. People who really know how to play eve spend the first 2 weeks - month with their character docked. That is bad design.
I'm all for getting my SP back to put into something fun and useful.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:26:00 -
[709]
Not going to read this whole thing, but WHERE did it officially say that learning skills are to be phased out?
I'm guessing no one from CCP actually said this.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:29:00 -
[710]
Eve fan fest video, CCP Soundwave talks about it. Basically said it is happening, they just need to find the way that it makes the least amount of people angry.
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Vejia
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:37:00 -
[711]
so basicly since new players cant catch old players what makes that the right way to do it. if someone been playing 5 years and someones been playing 2. i would think the person who has been playing for 5 years would have an advantage. besides money and items. or are they now going to introduce a cap of sorts. basicly allowing new players to catch people who have been playing for years. sounds like all the other mmos out there. one reason im actually against it unless they can find a way to do it correctly. not that my opinion matters much peace
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Razor Vision
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:46:00 -
[712]
Terrible idea. I just finished spending 3 months getting a new account's toon to all lvl 5 learning skills and lvl 5 cybernetics. If they deploy such a change it's massively unfair to those who already invested months of time into Learning Skills. The only way to make that fair would be if all existing players were refunded all Learning Skill points and be allowed to place them in any other part of their skill trees. Which I doubt CCP would ever do.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:00:00 -
[713]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 30/09/2010 20:02:05
Originally by: Vejia so basicly since new players cant catch old players what makes that the right way to do it. if someone been playing 5 years and someones been playing 2. i would think the person who has been playing for 5 years would have an advantage. besides money and items. or are they now going to introduce a cap of sorts. basicly allowing new players to catch people who have been playing for years. sounds like all the other mmos out there. one reason im actually against it unless they can find a way to do it correctly. not that my opinion matters much peace
No. This isn't about newbies catching up to vets. (Newbies will never catch up to vets.) The purpose is to remove an up-front, not-fun, grind that really hits newbies hard, and annoys a lot of vets in general.
The idea is that * learning skills will be removed, * everyone gets +X points added to every attribute (example +10 to each attribute), * learning skill points are refunded, with the end result that everyone trains at the same rate (barring remaps and implants) and no one has to train the boring learning skills.
Originally by: Razor Vision Terrible idea. I just finished spending 3 months getting a new account's toon to all lvl 5 learning skills and lvl 5 cybernetics. If they deploy such a change it's massively unfair to those who already invested months of time into Learning Skills. The only way to make that fair would be if all existing players were refunded all Learning Skill points and be allowed to place them in any other part of their skill trees. Which I doubt CCP would ever do.
CCP has recently added the ability to award skillpoints that you can assign anywhere. That plus the fanfest comment is what lead people to think that learning skills are going away real soon now.
Geez people, at least read the first few pages of the thread.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:06:00 -
[714]
Originally by: Razor Vision Terrible idea. I just finished spending 3 months getting a new account's toon to all lvl 5 learning skills and lvl 5 cybernetics. If they deploy such a change it's massively unfair to those who already invested months of time into Learning Skills.
Hi.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:34:00 -
[715]
Why not just get rid of all level V skills also. They take way too long to train and don't really add anything to your character except making the old timers have a one up on newbs. Probably level IV skills should also be removed or the time it takes to train them greatly reduced. (like from 3 days to 3 hours or even 3 minutes) All the level IV skills do is give old timers a one up on newbs. Newbs have already taken the time to train to level III so they should be able to compete. I guarantee that Eve's subscribers numbers would triple overnight if these changes are implemented. Arie
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:44:00 -
[716]
Originally by: Hesperius
Originally by: CyberGh0st I don't really think it is the smart move to train learning skills exclusively during the first month, I did not max them the first month, I rather mixed them with combat skills and eventually maxed them.
Unlike you I know it is smart to take care of learning skills first. People who do not train them immediately (actual noobs) are at a disadvantage. People who really know how to play eve spend the first 2 weeks - month with their character docked. That is bad design.
I'm all for getting my SP back to put into something fun and useful.
By your logic newbies best don't start playing this game, because they will always be at a disadvantage, having less SP's than vets.
I hope you don't spread your "knowledge" on those poor newbies.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:48:00 -
[717]
Originally by: Hesperius Eve fan fest video, CCP Soundwave talks about it. Basically said it is happening, they just need to find the way that it makes the least amount of people angry.
CCP also stated that insurance for suicide gankers would be removed ...
Your point is?
The way to make the least amount of people angry is not to remove them but give the newbies 4/3 in learning skills and give vets the equivalent in SP.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Cataca
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:49:00 -
[718]
Everyone makes it sound like the advantage of heaving the learning skills maxed out several months (or years, whatever) before the change will happen will suddenly disappear, which is not the case, since you already got more sp/h than the others during that time. You will, in every case still retain that advantage.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:56:00 -
[719]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 30/09/2010 21:01:00
Originally by: Arakash Mond Why not just get rid of all level V skills also. They take way too long to train and don't really add anything to your character except making the old timers have a one up on newbs. Probably level IV skills should also be removed or the time it takes to train them greatly reduced. (like from 3 days to 3 hours or even 3 minutes) All the level IV skills do is give old timers a one up on newbs. Newbs have already taken the time to train to level III so they should be able to compete. I guarantee that Eve's subscribers numbers would triple overnight if these changes are implemented. Arie
Oh no! Not the Slippery Slope argument! (Which is only remotely valid if you completely ignore the fact that the learning skills are meta-skills (skills that affect skills) and are not normal skills that allow users to do fun things like fly, fight, trade, build, explore, etc..)
Learning skills are the pre-meetings of the exploratory meeting to determine whether to convene a nominating committee to select delegates to recommend to be on the committee to look into the issue.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:57:00 -
[720]
Originally by: Cataca Everyone makes it sound like the advantage of heaving the learning skills maxed out several months (or years, whatever) before the change will happen will suddenly disappear, which is not the case, since you already got more sp/h than the others during that time. You will, in every case still retain that advantage.
Nope, I don't say that, I just don't see the need to remove them, they add choices to the game ( do I go 4/3 or 4/4 or even 5/5, when do I do that, etc ).
Just give me a good reason to remove them ( as opposed to giving newbies 4/3 and active player the equivalent in SP's ).
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.30 20:59:00 -
[721]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Arakash Mond Why not just get rid of all level V skills also. They take way too long to train and don't really add anything to your character except making the old timers have a one up on newbs. Probably level IV skills should also be removed or the time it takes to train them greatly reduced. (like from 3 days to 3 hours or even 3 minutes) All the level IV skills do is give old timers a one up on newbs. Newbs have already taken the time to train to level III so they should be able to compete. I guarantee that Eve's subscribers numbers would triple overnight if these changes are implemented. Arie
Oh no! Not the Slippery Slope argument! (Which is only remotely valid if you completely ignore the fact that the learning skills are meta-skills (skills that affect skills) and are not normal skills that allow users to do fun things like fly, fight, trade, build, explore, etc..)
Learning skill are the pre-meeting of the exploratory meeting to determine whether to convene a nominating committee to select delegates to recommend to be on the committee to look into the issue.
Ah so you find the system too complex and you want to dumb it down, k.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.09.30 21:10:00 -
[722]
Originally by: CyberGh0st Ah so you find the system too complex and you want to dumb it down, k.
Sure, tediousness and complexity are one and the same .. well perhaps in your world ..
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HottyChick
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Posted - 2010.09.30 21:24:00 -
[723]
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Yea sure and you are idiot No 1 lolz
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.30 21:27:00 -
[724]
Originally by: CyberGh0st By your logic newbies best don't start playing this game, because they will always be at a disadvantage, having less SP's than vets.
I hope you don't spread your "knowledge" on those poor newbies.
There is not an infinite amount of SP you can put into any ship, so new players can catch up to vets on a ship by ship basis. The over all SP pool they will never catch up to them on.
Anyway, yeah it is currently better for CCP's business if new players don't know that they are better off docked for the first month. Here's hoping they fix that.
Originally by: CyberGh0st Just give me a good reason to remove them ( as opposed to giving newbies 4/3 and active player the equivalent in SP's ).
Learning skills add no depth to the game. Lets just go ahead and say that they were never added and have you argue to add them. What would you say to sell the idea of adding a single level of basic learning skills and two levels of advanced learning skills to the game?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.30 21:32:00 -
[725]
To me it seems obvious that all this posturing from the older players is just them trying to maintain or get an advantage over the newer players. However, I've got the perfect way to solve this problem. First off, CCP has freely adjusted the starting skills a few times now, without too much backlash. So obviously CCP should just give all new players 5/5s in learning and tell the vets that they can feel free to train the skills if they don't have them yet.
Or they could just do away with them and reimburse skillpoints, but hey I always appreciate an epic troll.
-Liang
-- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Docile Stoat
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Posted - 2010.09.30 21:47:00 -
[726]
Edited by: Docile Stoat on 30/09/2010 21:50:23 Awww, QQ at not having a fully loaded character after signing up. And QQ at not being able to grind like WoW to catch up.
Skills etc are perfect the way they are, you are forced to THINK, CHOOSE and SPECIALIZE until such time as you have so many SP it doesn't matter. Go play Farmville and stop crying if you want instant gratification.
<3 Eve and the way it works. Just like real life you aren't born with your skills you have to learn them over time. None of that crap allowing new signups with nothing better to do than grind for ten hours a day to catch people who have been playing a few hours a week for years.
Go buy a character if you really are that impatient.
they already nerfed the learning skills when they lowered the requirements to train the rank 3's from needing the rank 1's at level 5 to only needing them to level 4, so you can already quickly get the majority of them taken care of. NO MORE LEARNING NERF KTHX.
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.09.30 21:51:00 -
[727]
Edited by: Arkanor on 30/09/2010 21:52:36 Anyone who seriously believes learning skills add any choice in the game, are seriously ****ed in the head. I suppose avoiding carpal tunnel is a legitimate "challenge" to PI as well?
You either A: Have no concept of what new players' first experience should be, or more likely
B: Suffer from the bitterness that you had to do your learning skills "Pledge Week" and want everyone who comes after you to do it too.
Arguing that learning skills keep "dumb" people away from the game is incorrect as well. It's those people who don't immediately see how much garbage they theoretically need to do to end up with a good character. So called "smart people" will see this, say "Hey, if I want to get a properly maxed character I need to remap to mem/int and grind learnings for a month or two, **** that, I'm going to play something else."
All the current system attracts is people willing to pay $20-$35 to get a half-game for that time as they can't actually be advancing skill-wise.
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Docile Stoat
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:11:00 -
[728]
Originally by: Arkanor You either A: Have no concept of what new players' first experience should be
Other than everyone having to be a new player at the beginning, yeah I guess nobody has any concept of what you want the new player experience to be like so you can shortcut to winning Eve.
Originally by: Arkanor B: Suffer from the bitterness that you had to do your learning skills "Pledge Week" and want everyone who comes after you to do it too.
Or perhaps enjoy a variation of what other MMORPGs offer with their 'grind to glory' system allowing lazy nubcakes with nothing better to do than play computer games all day a way to grind more SP than others with less keyboard time.
If you were born five years after a character you should expect to be five years behind their skill level, just like life. That of course has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on whether you can pewpew them, out trade them, or win whatever against them. Admit it, you just want to learn everything now and not have to think about character development.
Originally by: Arkanor Arguing that learning skills keep "dumb" people away from the game is incorrect as well. It's those people who don't immediately see how much garbage they theoretically need to do to end up with a good character. So called "smart people" will see this, say "Hey, if I want to get a properly maxed character I need to remap to mem/int and grind learnings for a month or two, **** that, I'm going to play something else."
That says more about your impatience and almost pathological desire to catch up by making investments other people have made obsolete. Smart people think about long term goals and plan their character skill training accordingly. Dumb people emoragequit when they realise they can't catch up like they can in other MMORPGs by grinding. And long may that continue.
Originally by: Arkanor All the current system attracts is people willing to pay $20-$35 to get a half-game for that time as they can't actually be advancing skill-wise.
If you fail at skills Q and patience then so be it, goodbye! Can I haz your stuffz?
SUGGESTION FOR CCP: what would be great is a penalty to learning speed when you are undocked. You're busy flying a spaceship FFS! How can you be expected to also be learning the skills in your Q?
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:18:00 -
[729]
Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 30/09/2010 22:19:44
Originally by: Docile Stoat If you were born five years after a character you should expect to be five years behind their skill level, just like life.
In real life, people get old, retire and die, making room for the younger generation to take over.
MMOs are far more short-term than an entire human life. Thus, the same people can continue being rich and powerful and taking up room at the top of EVE's food chain year after year. AND THOSE CHARACTERS DON'T DIE EVEN WHEN THEIR PLAYERS DO LEAVE. They're often sold on to someone else.
That's the problem with nearly all MMOs known to mankind: After 10 years, they're stuffed full of turbo-nerds with billions of SP/ten high-level characters/infinity billion game dollars, and no one wants to try to wedge themselves into the tiny space that's left for new players.
EVE will die sooner if you imbeciles and chimps keep whining about helping newer players to catch up faster.
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:31:00 -
[730]
Friend suggests game to me, cool its a space MMO. I frikkin' love space. Do what I always do, look up official forums, check out website, etc. Looks good so I make a trial account. Friend gives me learning skills and says train all these to 4. How long will this take I ask.
Mfw he tells me O_O
Great way to start this game off, this system is broken and stupid. Ok here's a game, wanna play it "right?" Go away for a month, THEN come back and play. Oh btw pay us.
Op's idea (minus the 900k sp giveaway) is perfect. The times have caught up with Eve and its time Eve adapted.
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Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:32:00 -
[731]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 30/09/2010 22:19:44
Originally by: Docile Stoat If you were born five years after a character you should expect to be five years behind their skill level, just like life.
In real life, people get old, retire and die, making room for the younger generation to take over.
MMOs are far more short-term than an entire human life. Thus, the same people can continue being rich and powerful and taking up room at the top of EVE's food chain year after year. AND THOSE CHARACTERS DON'T DIE EVEN WHEN THEIR PLAYERS DO LEAVE. They're often sold on to someone else.
That's the problem with nearly all MMOs known to mankind: After 10 years, they're stuffed full of turbo-nerds with billions of SP/ten high-level characters/infinity billion game dollars, and no one wants to try to wedge themselves into the tiny space that's left for new players.
EVE will die sooner if you imbeciles and chimps keep whining about helping newer players to catch up faster.
yawn read up a bit on specialization.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:37:00 -
[732]
Does anyone playing this game today still remember the time when battleships were near-mythical assets, when 100 million ISK was an incredible fortune, when piloting a well-armed cruiser was a major accomplishment, when you could stack MWDs, and when 0.0 was a vast expanse of empty space?
The infancy of EVE is long gone; the pioneering days are over. Everything is known, everyplace is settled, every challenge dissected and documented on some website, every single item and process cataloged, every aspect of ship fitting and character training down to a mathematical science.
And there are people everywhere. Everywhere is owned, and getting a piece of the action requires you to take a cubicle beside the other three thousand people gunning for the same thing.
It wasn't like that in the early days. There were still REAL opportunities in the future. EVE is now tamed and quantified, and packed full of veterans and sold high-SP characters.
And the SP system has barely changed any since the beginning... certainly not enough to bridge the gap by any stretch of the imagination.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:39:00 -
[733]
Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 30/09/2010 22:39:55
Originally by: Brian Ballsack yawn read up a bit on specialization.
I have. It's bog-standard, tired garbage parroted by the usual suspects at every opportunity. I'm sick of hearing about it, and it is not a solution... at all.
The very fact that it's the only way to compete in under a year's time simply underlines the problem.
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Corozan Aspinall
Party Time Inc.
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:42:00 -
[734]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Does anyone playing this game today still remember the time when battleships were near-mythical assets, when 100 million ISK was an incredible fortune, when piloting a well-armed cruiser was a major accomplishment, when you could stack MWDs, and when 0.0 was a vast expanse of empty space?
The infancy of EVE is long gone; the pioneering days are over. Everything is known, everyplace is settled, every challenge dissected and documented on some website, every single item and process cataloged, every aspect of ship fitting and character training down to a mathematical science.
And there are people everywhere. Everywhere is owned, and getting a piece of the action requires you to take a cubicle beside the other three thousand people gunning for the same thing.
It wasn't like that in the early days. There were still REAL opportunities in the future. EVE is now tamed and quantified, and packed full of veterans and sold high-SP characters.
And the SP system has barely changed any since the beginning... certainly not enough to bridge the gap by any stretch of the imagination.
It still has some sparkle dragons for those of us late comers.
But yeah, largely, qft.
I don't think thats a bad thing, it is just a new kind of gaming experience. Things change and nostalgia is always the gambit of a grizzled vet.
Finding an MMO that isn't 'full' is pretty unusual. When EvE was young, arguably, so was the internet. World just turned a few times.
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Guffimur Rogidi
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Posted - 2010.09.30 22:42:00 -
[735]
Originally by: Brian Ballsack read up a bit on specialization.
I know about specialization, I just can't specialize yet, I got those fking learning skills to grind my way through.
Grind, grind, grind. I may as well gb2wow while I get this boring and ******ed part of the game over with.
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Docile Stoat
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Posted - 2010.09.30 23:00:00 -
[736]
People whining about learning skills are just impatient failmonkeys.
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph In real life, people get old, retire and die, making room for the younger generation to take over.
And in Eve they get old, retire and die and their characters go with them.
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph MMOs are far more short-term than an entire human life.
Other crappy MMOs perhaps, Eve is fast getting to the point it will take an entire lifetime to train everything to Level 5. That will be a great day, finally a game too big to complete in a human lifespan. Epic win. And an infinite amount of ragefuel for impatient upstarts like yourself no doubt.
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Thus, the same people can continue being rich and powerful and taking up room at the top of EVE's food chain year after year. AND THOSE CHARACTERS DON'T DIE EVEN WHEN THEIR PLAYERS DO LEAVE. They're often sold on to someone else.
Not that often, and even so, so what. If someone dies they won't have a chance. And if you're leaving the game for good you can't sell your character for real money so wtf is the point of having billions of isk from the sale - people don't bother just incase they want to come back. There are too many sad stories of people giving their characters away only to want them back later and be told 'no'.
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph That's the problem with nearly all MMOs known to mankind: After 10 years, they're stuffed full of turbo-nerds with billions of SP/ten high-level characters/infinity billion game dollars, and no one wants to try to wedge themselves into the tiny space that's left for new players.
That's the problem with real life. After a few years there's a load of ultra-rich people running the entire planet making sure none of us peasants can achieve the same position as them. Someone has to be left to do the actual work. Wow, stop QQing about **** that actually happens in real life. Or should real life go all communistical and equally share out the wealth and l33t items between everyone? Ohh, won't that be _fun_ (not).
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph EVE will die sooner if you imbeciles and chimps keep whining about helping newer players to catch up faster.
The sooner all the QQ and whiners die the better tbh. Have you tried scamming in Jita? I hear that makes isk real fast.
Originally by: Ehgrimm Friend suggests game to me, cool its a space MMO. I frikkin' love space. Do what I always do, look up official forums, check out website, etc. Looks good so I make a trial account. Friend gives me learning skills and says train all these to 4. How long will this take I ask.
Your friend failed at introducing you to Eve. The correct method is to learn some basic skills (they don't take long even without learning skill bonuses) and see if you like the game. If you do then (and only then) start the long term planning of character advancement towards whatever goals you came up with during your trial - including learning the learning skills which have already been kindly nerfed (no doubt due to pressure from impatient emo-noobs) so as to only require level 4 to reach the higher ones rather than 5.
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
Originally by: Brian Ballsack yawn read up a bit on specialization.
I have. It's bog-standard, tired garbage parroted by the usual suspects at every opportunity. I'm sick of hearing about it, and it is not a solution... at all.
The very fact that it's the only way to compete in under a year's time simply underlines the problem.
You clearly fail at Eve. You can be useful in 0.0 fleet fights with barely 2m SP. You're trying to shortcut to glory, and would probably massively QQ even if you had eleventy billion SP and got taken down by half a dozen Ibis. Life is hard, you have to learn, and that takes time. Deal with it or **** off to Farmville tbh.
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.09.30 23:10:00 -
[737]
Originally by: Docile Stoat People whining about learning skills are just impatient failmonkey.
Your friend failed at introducing you to Eve. The correct method is to learn some basic skills (they don't take long even without learning skill bonuses) and see if you like the game. If you do then (and only then) start the long term planning of character advancement towards whatever goals you came up with during your trial - including learning the learning skills which have already been kindly nerfed (no doubt due to pressure from impatient emo-noobs) so as to only require level 4 to reach the higher ones rather than 5.
You clearly fail at Eve. You can be useful in 0.0 fleet fights with barely 2m SP. You're trying to shortcut to glory, and would probably massively QQ even if you had eleventy billion SP and got taken down by half a dozen Ibis. Life is hard, you have to learn, and that takes time. Deal with it or **** off to Farmville tbh.
Desperately clinging to the one clearly dated mechanic that makes you feel elite sure is attractive man. Explain one benefit to keeping the learning system as is besides, "lol fail noob cant learn cuz too impayshent."
You can't because there isn't. Op covered those who already trained em with a fat SP refund, so what reason is there?
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.09.30 23:21:00 -
[738]
Originally by: Docile Stoat You clearly fail at Eve. You can be useful in 0.0 fleet fights with barely 2m SP. You're trying to shortcut to glory, and would probably massively QQ even if you had eleventy billion SP and got taken down by half a dozen Ibis. Life is hard, you have to learn, and that takes time. Deal with it or **** off to Farmville tbh.
There it is, the timeless classic noob-in-a-Rifter-in-nullsec gibberish (looks good on paper, doesn't actually happen for 99.9% of people).
I'm not trying to shortcut anything. You're foolish to presume my level of experience with EVE or my characters' skill point totals. Unlike you, I don't need to resort to guesswork to insult and undermine my opponents; I can point to what you actually say, and tell you why you're wrong.
Try coming up with something other than "ur a noob," "gb2wow," and "nuh-uh," will you?
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Docile Stoat
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Posted - 2010.09.30 23:39:00 -
[739]
Originally by: Ehgrimm Desperately clinging to the one clearly dated mechanic that makes you feel elite sure is attractive man. Explain one benefit to keeping the learning system as is besides, "lol fail noob cant learn cuz too impayshent."
You can't because there isn't. Op covered those who already trained em with a fat SP refund, so what reason is there?
Thanks for putting words into my mouth. I am neither desperately clinging to anything nor feeling elite about it. That just shows your pathological rage problems when faced with the prospect of not being able to win as quickly as you would like, and/or feeling that something you don't like is a waste of time and your hatred of people that took the time to invest in their character that way.
So let's say they do wipe out the learning skills. What will you emorage about next? By your logic what reason is there to have any skills in the game?
How about all those horrid old players that took the trouble to learn weapon X specialization to level 5 with all the trimmings, oh noes what an advantage against noobs, please nerf it CCP?
The learning skills are no different to any other skill. Training them improves your ability to do something - it improves your ability to learn. Just because you're unable to live with them not giving some direct fighting/profiting advancement does not in any way make them useless, obsolete or pointless. (Of course they do actually give direct fighting/profiting advancement, you can train the fighting/profiting skills faster but you're too short sighted and/or impatient to realise or care).
Welcome to life, bits of it are **** and you won't like it all. Deal with it or visit Farmville.
PS. Can I have your stuff yet?
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.09.30 23:45:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Docile Stoat
Thanks for putting words into my mouth. I am neither desperately clinging to anything nor feeling elite about it. That just shows your pathological rage problems when faced with the prospect of not being able to win as quickly as you would like, and/or feeling that something you don't like is a waste of time and your hatred of people that took the time to invest in their character that way.
So let's say they do wipe out the learning skills. What will you emorage about next? By your logic what reason is there to have any skills in the game?
How about all those horrid old players that took the trouble to learn weapon X specialization to level 5 with all the trimmings, oh noes what an advantage against noobs, please nerf it CCP?
The learning skills are no different to any other skill. Training them improves your ability to do something - it improves your ability to learn. Just because you're unable to live with them not giving some direct fighting/profiting advancement does not in any way make them useless, obsolete or pointless. (Of course they do actually give direct fighting/profiting advancement, you can train the fighting/profiting skills faster but you're too short sighted and/or impatient to realise or care).
Welcome to life, bits of it are **** and you won't like it all. Deal with it or visit Farmville.
PS. Can I have your stuff yet?
Think like a businessman. Want to attract new customers? Want to keep old customers? You gotta make fresh changes. Stagnation leads to boredom, boredom will drive away customers, its as simple as that.
The game is 5+ years old, and the old ways don't apply anymore. Eve no longer has new frontiers to explore, and no end game race to win, the learning system is outdated and needs to be scrapped. The people that put their time in get something out of it, new players don't have to waste their time learning skills that make you better at learning (see how ridiculous that sounds?). Everyone wins, there is no downside.
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Docile Stoat
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Posted - 2010.10.01 00:26:00 -
[741]
Originally by: Ehgrimm Think like a businessman. Want to attract new customers? Want to keep old customers? You gotta make fresh changes. Stagnation leads to boredom, boredom will drive away customers, its as simple as that.
The game is 5+ years old, and the old ways don't apply anymore. Eve no longer has new frontiers to explore, and no end game race to win, the learning system is outdated and needs to be scrapped. The people that put their time in get something out of it, new players don't have to waste their time learning skills that make you better at learning (see how ridiculous that sounds?). Everyone wins, there is no downside.
As a real life businessman I'd say CCP are doing pretty well. Subscriptions have been relentlessly increasing and the average # of players online when I connect has continuously steadily risen since I started playing. No signs of people leaving en-masse just yet.
The base game is old yes, but the game now is hugely different to what it was 5 years ago. More systems, WH, T3, new sov mechanics, PI, new skills, the list goes on. Or did you not notice the expansions that were released? Plenty of frontier still to explore (WH even randomize their frontiers with some frequency).
Learning a skill to improve an aspect of a character doesn't sound ridiculous at all. Sounds exactly what a skill should do in fact. If that improvement is the ability to learn faster through an attribute bonus then so be it, same mechanic as every other skill, something gets faster/quicker/cheaper/better.
That said, I would support a change to the learning mechanics. Perhaps reduce the number of skills and up the implants. Say just one base and advanced general learning skill, and a skill to use implants that went up to +10. So the full range of learning speeds could be kept but without the 'grind' of actually learning them - though of course you'd need to make the isk to buy your way to the implants.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 00:35:00 -
[742]
Originally by: Docile Stoat That said, I would support a change to the learning mechanics.
Comments: - Even if we agree that the issue of not being able to start playing the game because of learning skills is primarily a psychological/perception issue, its still very real and its effects are felt. - Making the game feel faster to get into means that there'll be more noobs about - and that those noobs will be more useful. That gives me simultaneously more people to shoot at and more potential gang mates. - There are plenty of ways to customize your character without learning skills. - I really want my 10 mil SP that I've invested into learning back. I think I'd spend it all on T3 skills tbh. :) - I'm +1 to introducing more/better implants and implant sets.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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EveOrg
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Posted - 2010.10.01 00:42:00 -
[743]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- I really want my 10 mil SP that I've invested into learning back. I think I'd spend it all on T3 skills tbh. :)
Hm, what learning skills did you train? All of learning group to L5 is barely 5.3m SP.
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Thur Barbek
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Posted - 2010.10.01 00:46:00 -
[744]
While I agree with the fact that learning skills should be removed/changed... Do you really want the Devs messing around with the character sheets? I mean, look what they did in the last patch, now apply that to your character's skills. Just a thought
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 00:47:00 -
[745]
Originally by: EveOrg
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- I really want my 10 mil SP that I've invested into learning back. I think I'd spend it all on T3 skills tbh. :)
Hm, what learning skills did you train? All of learning group to L5 is barely 5.3m SP.
I have more than one character. And coming to think of it, it may actually be higher than 10M SP.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.10.01 00:57:00 -
[746]
Edited by: Arkanor on 01/10/2010 00:59:23
Originally by: Docile Stoat People whining about learning skills are just impatient failmonkeys.
Paying $20 for a game that makes people not want to play it the first month sucks.
One of the above statements is true, guess which one. (Hint since you seem kind of slow, it's the second one).
I already did my learning skills, and I've been around a decent while, so it doesn't make too much difference to me either way. It is however, a really really **** mechanic. I don't even care if the points are refunded.
I see you rolled a Caldari Achura, I would assume because you wanted a better stat-line and the ability to fly ships sooner, what an impatient failmonkey.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 01:06:00 -
[747]
All three of my actively-trained characters have their learning skills trained to 4 (x3) and 5 (x1). One of my characters is nearly finished training even the x3 skills to 5.
All three of my actively-trained characters have most (if not all) of the core and general piloting skills trained to 4 or 5.
New players should no longer have to be nickel-and-dimed by this nonsense. It should be deleted.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.10.01 01:56:00 -
[748]
Originally by: Docile Stoat
Skills etc are perfect the way they are, you are forced to THINK, CHOOSE and SPECIALIZE until such time as you have so many SP it doesn't matter. Go play Farmville and stop crying if you want instant gratification.
Thinking and choice have been removed from the picture for newbies. Back in The Old Days, There were no remaps, there was no accelerated training time. This meant that we old farts could train the learning skills as we needed to. You didn't need to train the perception/willpower learning skills until you actually started training a perception/willpower based skill. You also didn't need to train the learning skills to an advanced level until you started training those long level 5s.
Nowadays, any newbie with a basic understanding of algebra and/or EveMon will realize that it's a good idea to SPECIALIZE, MAXIMIZE and OPTIMIZE their first remap/training bonus to max out the learning skills as far as they can stand before remapping into their profession.
Old farts weren't under any pressure to train the learning skills and could train them in small doses. New players no longer have that choice unless they don't plan on playing for long or are really bad at math.
Nowadays, the Learning Skills+remaps+training bonus (inadvertently) makes for a bad new player experience, and that's bad for Eve and CCP.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
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Posted - 2010.10.01 02:04:00 -
[749]
hey this thread is still here!
another patch, another opportunity to remove them missed.
arguing to keep these skills in game is like arguing for ethnic cleansing: everytime you open your mouth it becomes more apparent how stupid you are.
also i forgot to add on the page waaay back where i first posted: this would be an excellent opportunity for CCP to add the +6 and +7 implants.
. -hi sec lolwarrior- |
Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.01 03:13:00 -
[750]
Quote: another patch, another opportunity to remove them missed
Perhaps that means you lose at Eve yet again? Eve's been around for over 7 years. They must have done something right. Eve is by all means a niche game compared to Farmville and Wow and similar games. It caters (or catered) to the niche crowd it was designed for, learning skills included. The mind set behind such a tragic waste of time that you super gamers decry can be a bit difficult to understand. Sort of like the difference between driving through the countryside versus walking thru it. Now that Wow is clearly becoming a tottering giant we have the the level 80 in 2 weeks crowd milling about, restless and bored and as annoyingly noisy as ever. The very same mind set that has been repeated in every mmorpg since EQ1 is now here in Eve. "I want to get to the end of the game NOW!" In the old days posts like this would have been laughed at and fogotten in short order. Whatever happens I've had great fun in this game for several years just the way it is.
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Zeuth Proxy
Caldari Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2010.10.01 03:35:00 -
[751]
The reason EvE has been doing so well and still around is due to its nature and lack of competition.
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Tal'sung
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Posted - 2010.10.01 03:37:00 -
[752]
Originally by: Zeuth Proxy The reason EvE has been doing so well and still around is due to its nature and lack of competition.
1000+ this
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Reaver Glitterstim
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Posted - 2010.10.01 04:42:00 -
[753]
Originally by: Hesperius
Originally by: CyberGh0st Just give me a good reason to remove them ( as opposed to giving newbies 4/3 and active player the equivalent in SP's ).
Learning skills add no depth to the game. Lets just go ahead and say that they were never added and have you argue to add them. What would you say to sell the idea of adding a single level of basic learning skills and two levels of advanced learning skills to the game?
This.
Originally by: Docile Stoat Edited by: Docile Stoat on 30/09/2010 21:50:23 Awww, QQ at not having a fully loaded character after signing up. And QQ at not being able to grind like WoW to catch up.
Skills etc are perfect the way they are, you are forced to THINK, CHOOSE and SPECIALIZE until such time as you have so many SP it doesn't matter. Go play Farmville and stop crying if you want instant gratification.
I'm a newbie, haven't learned all my learning skills yet. I'm happy that way. I made the compromise where I chose to have skills now instead of more SP later. And my choice made a difference! Please don't take this away from me. I don't know what I'd do without Eve.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.01 10:35:00 -
[754]
Originally by: Liang Nuren To me it seems obvious that all this posturing from the older players is just them trying to maintain or get an advantage over the newer players. However, I've got the perfect way to solve this problem. First off, CCP has freely adjusted the starting skills a few times now, without too much backlash. So obviously CCP should just give all new players 5/5s in learning and tell the vets that they can feel free to train the skills if they don't have them yet.
Or they could just do away with them and reimburse skillpoints, but hey I always appreciate an epic troll.
-Liang
If you give new players 5/5 then there is essentially no point in them anymore.
I would not object giving new players 4/3 for free and no compensation for vets, the only major issue I see with that plan is with the not so new newbies that recently finished 4/3 or more learning skills, they would be getting screwed.
On the other hand I have been in that situation before, when I created my main ( or alt don't remember ) I received something like 50k sp and later on newbies got 800k sp, ( I had 2 mill sp by that time I think ). It stinged a bit, but one moves on anyway, now, a few years later, I feel pretty comfortable with my SP's and how the SP system works, and the knowledge I can't catch up anyway, in terms of absolute SP's.
So again, giving 4/3 learning skills to newbies and give the current active players the equivalent SP's as compensation would be the best of both worlds I believe. Furthermore, CCP could make money out of this, they could send reactivation mails around telling people would get a package of free SP's, only available during a certain month.
Either way, between remapping the attributes and the removal of SP's I feel that part of the flavor of EVE is getting erased.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.01 11:20:00 -
[755]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 01/10/2010 11:25:43
Originally by: CyberGh0st If you give new players 5/5 then there is essentially no point in them anymore.
Was there ever a point in them anyway?
If we started off with max attributes, who would possibly call for removing 70% of it to be able to train them back within 3 months? It's a bit like "you're not allowed to leave your starter faction space unless you train this Rank 2 skill for each other highsec space, a Rank 3 skill for each security level of lowsec and Rank 5 skill to be able to enter nulsec." It's all a bit artificial and overdone.
I'm not 100% against the learning skills though, but just the primary and "Learning" skill itself should be enough. Just make the primary learning skills give +2 to the corresponding attribute for each level, do away with the advanced Rank 3 stuff and we have an agreeable compromise.
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.10.01 13:33:00 -
[756]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Was there ever a point in them anyway?
People were *****ing about learning taking so long?
I heard EVE's getting ported to the xbox, personally I can't wait. --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 13:44:00 -
[757]
The lack of competition for EVE is an interesting point. If CCP ever gets a worthy competitor or two, I'm betting they'll suddenly become far more interested in revamping the rookie experience ù "you can be useful in a Rifter" and "focus your learning plan" notwithstanding.
Then again, it's 2010, going on 2011; every year, it seems, the amount of complete and utter fail in MMO game design gets taken up another notch. There have been so many garbage MMOs recently, I can't even keep track.
EVE is the #1 rated MMO on MMORPG.com, second only to Guild Wars 2, which hasn't even been released yet. So for now, I think CCP is safe with its monopoly... and if Incarna turns out the be awesome, even I will take some time off from complaining bitterly in the forum.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2010.10.01 14:05:00 -
[758]
It's fine how it is. Leave the learning skills in game.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 14:14:00 -
[759]
It's not fine how it is. Delete learning skills.
See how easy that is? This thread can be summed up very succintly:
NUH-UH
UH-HUH
NUH-UH
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Verdon Teraskun
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Posted - 2010.10.01 21:24:00 -
[760]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph It's not fine how it is. Delete learning skills.
See how easy that is? This thread can be summed up very succintly:
NUH-UH
UH-HUH
NUH-UH
UH-HUH
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:25:00 -
[761]
Why is this thread still alive? It's based on pure speculation with no basis in fact.
Also, if there were no learning skills. Tell me, what is the point in having attributes at all? People would spec one toon with int mem, another with Mem int, and another with per int, and just train on all three, one at a time.
So while your at it you might as well just remove attributes, because in the post learning skill world they are meaningless.
Heck you might as well remove skills, fittings and release eve for x-box live arcade. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:28:00 -
[762]
Originally by: Culmen Heck you might as well remove skills, fittings and release eve for x-box live arcade.
I don't always fear change.
But when I do, I use hyperbole.
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:29:00 -
[763]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
Originally by: Culmen Heck you might as well remove skills, fittings and release eve for x-box live arcade.
I don't always fear change.
But when I do, I use hyperbole.
There's a big difference between fearing change and hating stupidity. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:33:00 -
[764]
Originally by: Culmen There's a big difference between fearing change and hating stupidity.
There's a big difference between a logical argument and sarcastic overexaggeration devoid of any merit.
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:34:00 -
[765]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
Originally by: Culmen There's a big difference between fearing change and hating stupidity.
There's a big difference between a logical argument and sarcastic overexaggeration devoid of any merit.
I would suggest you actually make a logical argument rather then comment on sarcasm.
You know, refute a point, show inconsistencies, etc, etc. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:00:00 -
[766]
Originally by: Culmen Why is this thread still alive? It's based on pure speculation with no basis in fact.
Because CCP is removing learning skills. It is based on their actions (adding the SP pool functionality) and what CCP Soundwave said at Fan Fest.
After this happens, if it really makes Eve as unplayable as you think, you can go make a thread about how you are leaving Eve.
From someone who got learning skills out of the way a long time ago, learning skills are kinda like an ugly wart. There isn't much to argue about it. Its an ugly and I want it to go away. I would rather put that SP into something fun.
Learning skills for new players, sure you don't have to train them before anything else, but like breathing air you are much better off if you do.
Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:15:00 -
[767]
Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 01/10/2010 23:17:29
Originally by: Culmen I would suggest you actually make a logical argument rather then comment on sarcasm.
Plenty of logical arguments have been made. You've simply ignored them, or dismissed and belittled them with hyperbole.
If CCP deletes learning skills, revamps the system (so that only remapping and implants affect attributes), and refunds spent SP to older players, how will that affect you? Other than a 2-8m SP surplus, that is?
You're playing the part of Chicken Little: "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" It's ludicrous.
The reason bittervets are so opposed to removal of learning skills is because they believe EVE is a fraternity house, and that new players should suffer through every bad design implementation and outdated mechanic until the end of time. If not, a terrible and insulting injustice is surely being done to the long-suffering people who "put their time in."
Grow up.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:16:00 -
[768]
Edited by: Arakash Mond on 01/10/2010 23:19:06
Quote: After this happens, if it really makes Eve as unplayable as you think, you can go make a thread about how you are leaving Eve.
Or we could live in reality and have the learning skill haters start putting their money where their mouths are and start making posts as to why they're quitting eve because learning skills make it so unplayable.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:23:00 -
[769]
Originally by: Culmen Also, if there were no learning skills. Heck you might as well remove skills, fittings and release eve for x-box live arcade.
That's the same logic as: "Also, if there was no hamburgers. Heck you might as well remove drinks, vegetables, bread and put everyone on intervenal tube feeding." a.k.a. no logic at all
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:24:00 -
[770]
Originally by: Arakash Mond Or we could live in reality and have the learning skill haters start putting their money where their mouths are and start making posts as to why they're quitting eve because learning skills make it so unplayable.
But none of us think that.
I noticed you avoided quoting this part of what I said: Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:27:00 -
[771]
Also, if there is no spoon. Heck, you might as well remove forks, silverware, chopsticks and have everyone eat with their hands.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:28:00 -
[772]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Also, if there is no spoon. Heck, you might as well remove forks, silverware, chopsticks and have everyone eat with their hands.
Why eat?
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:34:00 -
[773]
Edited by: Arakash Mond on 01/10/2010 23:35:49
Quote: But none of us think that.
Then what are you complaining about?
Quote: I noticed you avoided quoting this part of what I said: Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
Wouldn't that sort of be like arguing why isn't the king the most pwerful piece on the chessboard rather than the queen? I think what bugs me the most about you learning skill haters is the inherent deceit in your complaints. Bottom line is you have a problem with how long it takes to train skills period. You just perceive learning skills as more vulnerable to attack than say all level 5 skills. If you would simply say it takes too long to skill up it would make it alot easier to have a rational argument with you. Because what you are really complaining about are the inherent basics of the game.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:43:00 -
[774]
Sorry man, but I was never complaining. Based on the actions we have seen and what CCP has said many times in the past, a little logic would tell you learning skills are on their way out.
So, now is your chance to look at your character sheet, look at your learning skill count, and really think if you would would not rather have those points allocated somewhere else. If you really feel so strong about what those skills bring to your Eve online experience every time you log in, this is your chance to hold an unbreakable argument to save them... ready, go!
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:45:00 -
[775]
Originally by: Arakash Mond
Quote: I noticed you avoided quoting this part of what I said: Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
Wouldn't that sort of be like arguing why isn't the king the most powerful piece on the chessboard rather than the queen?
That's an invalid comparison. The question should be: "if chess didn't have a queen, what would be the added value of introducing one?" The answer, as you may have guessed, is a little different from the ansewr to the question "what would be the added value of introducing learning skills in EVE if they didn't exist now".
Quote: Bottom line is you have a problem with how long it takes to train skills period. You just perceive learning skills as more vulnerable to attack than say all level 5 skills. If you would simply say it takes too long to skill up it would make it alot easier to have a rational argument with you.
I admit that I find skilltraining too slow, but I can live with that (no game is perfect). But for the learning skills there¦s also the argument of scaring new players away and the non existent added value of learning skills compared to all the other skills. And so on, you can read 26 pages with imo good argiments against learning skills.
Quote: Because what you are really complaining about are the inherent basics of the game.
Well how would the fundaments of EVE be overthrown if there weren't learning skills and everyone just started off with +10 attributes? Once you have learned them you never think about them anymore anyway, they have zero impact on the actual gameplay experience at all.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:48:00 -
[776]
Quote: I think removing learning skills would be acceptable if you also removed the benefits you get from training them. If learning skills go then so do those extra 10 attribute points.
That's my argument right there. If you get rid of the skills you should get rid of the benefits they provide also. It's only logical. So to keep those extra attribute points we ought to keep the skill training that provides them.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:50:00 -
[777]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 01/10/2010 23:56:40
Originally by: Arakash Mond
Quote: I think removing learning skills would be acceptable if you also removed the benefits you get from training them. If learning skills go then so do those extra 10 attribute points.
That's my argument right there. If you get rid of the skills you should get rid of the benefits they provide also. It's only logical. So to keep those extra attribute points we ought to keep the skill training that provides them.
Excellent idea. Lets's see how many new subscribers EVE gets.
And as we're at it, let's also remove all the SP the current players got from the learning skills. Say byebye to 70% of your SP tally.
Lets's see how many existing subscribers EVE loses. I'm all for it! Do it now CCP!
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:54:00 -
[778]
Edited by: Sig Sour on 01/10/2010 23:55:28 nooo! IM SCARED OF CHANGE!
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.10.02 00:40:00 -
[779]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
The reason bittervets are so opposed to removal of learning skills is because *snip*
Or... maybe the "bittervets" are simply the kinds of people who never give up something without getting something in return? Why would anyone in a position of power or advantage give up that advantage for no gain or consideration?
I'm not judging, I'm just pointing out that what's obvious/smart/right to one person is seen as inconceivable/stupid/wrong to another. Which means that what you think are good arguments/points will be seen as completely boneheaded/wrong. It may be a good idea to provide logic that appeals to your opponent's personality/world_viewpoint.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.10.02 01:29:00 -
[780]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Or... maybe the "bittervets" are simply the kinds of people who never give up something without getting something in return? Why would anyone in a position of power or advantage give up that advantage for no gain or consideration?
I'm not judging, I'm just pointing out that what's obvious/smart/right to one person is seen as inconceivable/stupid/wrong to another. Which means that what you think are good arguments/points will be seen as completely boneheaded/wrong. It may be a good idea to provide logic that appeals to your opponent's personality/world_viewpoint.
You will get something in return, all of that SP you put into Learning will be refunded. Seriously what is there for people to hold on to? Learning skills are a stupid and outdated mechanic. Remove them, refund SP, profit.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.02 01:38:00 -
[781]
If you remove learning skills how will new players get those extra attribute points?
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Adyny Rieph
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Posted - 2010.10.02 01:38:00 -
[782]
I like things the way they are, personally. If CCP left the game exactly as it is now and never released any more changes, tweaks, fixes, patches or expansions, I would be fine and dandy. I never get why people always want things to change. That's why I never vote... always people wanting to change things.
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.10.02 01:41:00 -
[783]
Originally by: Arakash Mond If you remove learning skills how will new players get those extra attribute points?
If the change happened everyone who didn't already would get +10, everyone who trained them already gets a nice SP refund. Win/Win
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.02 01:48:00 -
[784]
Quote: If the change happened everyone who didn't already would get +10, everyone who trained them already gets a nice SP refund. Win/Win
So what you are really asking for is to be given 10 free attribute points (50 free attribute points all together)? Is that what you are saying?
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.10.02 01:52:00 -
[785]
Originally by: Arakash Mond
So what you are really asking for is to be given 10 free attribute points (50 free attribute points all together)? Is that what you are saying?
Short answer, yes. Longer answer, We're asking for an obviously outdated mechanic to be purged, and the people who painstakingly wasted their time to be compensated.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.02 02:00:00 -
[786]
Quote: So what you are really asking for is to be given 10 free attribute points (50 free attribute points all together)? Is that what you are saying?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short answer, yes. Longer answer, We're asking for an obviously outdated mechanic to be purged, and the people who painstakingly wasted their time to be compensated.
Ok I understand. You want all characters at creation to have 19 in each attribute. I don't see the obviousness in it being outdated though. What made learning skills relevant in 2003 that makes them irrelevant now?
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.02 04:21:00 -
[787]
Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 02/10/2010 04:24:32
Originally by: Arakash Mond What made learning skills relevant in 2003 that makes them irrelevant now?
In 2003, there weren't already tens of thousands of people in the game with dozens of millions of skill points; there weren't any T2 ships or modules (which are very much the standard now); and space was still mysterious, waiting for the formation of the great alliances (whereas now they've been dug in for years).
In other words, there was no great rush back then, and there was the opportunity to get in on the ground floor. That's all gone now.
Are you familiar with the story of Nightfreeze? Read his story, then tell me the skill point standard hasn't changed at all since the days when a T1 cruiser was something a fair portion of the player base feared, and battleships were the stuff dreams were made of.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.10.02 06:21:00 -
[788]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 02/10/2010 04:24:32
Originally by: Arakash Mond What made learning skills relevant in 2003 that makes them irrelevant now?
In 2003, there weren't already tens of thousands of people in the game with dozens of millions of skill points; there weren't any T2 ships or modules (which are very much the standard now); and space was still mysterious, waiting for the formation of the great alliances (whereas now they've been dug in for years).
In other words, there was no great rush back then, and there was the opportunity to get in on the ground floor. That's all gone now.
Are you familiar with the story of Nightfreeze? Read his story, then tell me the skill point standard hasn't changed at all since the days when a T1 cruiser was something a fair portion of the player base feared, and battleships were the stuff dreams were made of.
... because giving out 50 free attribute points to everyone is obviously a good thing. ... because speeding up skill training and lessening the impact your choices in training has on your character is obviously a good thing.
Oh wait, neither one of those is a good thing. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Wen Jaibao
PAX AUGUSTA
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Posted - 2010.10.02 06:29:00 -
[789]
I will rejoice the day learning skills are removed. With or without reimbursement. The very concept of 'learning skills' ****ed me off from day one, but I swallowed it like a jagged little pill.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.02 07:56:00 -
[790]
Originally by: Ranger 1 ... because giving out 50 free attribute points to everyone is obviously a good thing.
Taking part of an argument completely out of context and spin-doctoring it to fit your personal agenda is pathetic. I feel as though I'm conversing with a lobotomized chimp rather than a human being.
Originally by: Ranger 1 ... because speeding up skill training and lessening the impact your choices in training has on your character is obviously a good thing.
Holy mother of God in Heaven above, a choice between "slower" and "faster"?! That adds so much depth to this game! Why, without learning skills, we might as well just graft World of Warcraft's character progression system into EVE and implement a mechanic that prevents players from PvPing without consent.
Yeah, see how stupid hyperbole is? It's ridiculous. Stop.
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Jenny Hawk
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.10.02 09:06:00 -
[791]
I wish there could be some independent comittee made out of professors in logic and rhetorics who would decide which camp has the best arguments.
I also wish CCP @#$%#@% allowed polls on forums do we could at least see what the playerbase really thinks.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.02 09:18:00 -
[792]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
Originally by: Ranger 1 ... because giving out 50 free attribute points to everyone is obviously a good thing.
Taking part of an argument completely out of context and spin-doctoring it to fit your personal agenda is pathetic. I feel as though I'm conversing with a lobotomized chimp rather than a human being.
Originally by: Ranger 1 ... because speeding up skill training and lessening the impact your choices in training has on your character is obviously a good thing.
Holy mother of God in Heaven above, a choice between "slower" and "faster"?! That adds so much depth to this game! Why, without learning skills, we might as well just graft World of Warcraft's character progression system into EVE and implement a mechanic that prevents players from PvPing without consent.
Yeah, see how stupid hyperbole is? It's ridiculous. Stop.
The odd thing is, some people really do like learning skills. I mean it. I introduced a guy at work to EVE early this year and, despite my repeated emphatic advice, backed up with maths, he's insisted on training them to 5+5. He just really liked the idea of improving his character's stats while he's at work. It's just the way he is.
I'm not going to get in to any "silent majority" tosh and be all everyone who isn't actively complaining about them really likes them, I'm just saying that it's not quite as cut and dried as you make out.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Anne Arqui
Minmatar Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.10.02 09:54:00 -
[793]
I don't realy see why people can be against removal of those skills.
They don't make you any stronger in the game anyway and it will keep more players in the game. Older players will get a free multi million SP boost. Basically everyone who trained them gets ~2 months worth of free skilltraining. I would see it as a nice present myself.
And tbh I don't think it adds depth to the game at all. If you're expecting to play the game for over a year, training them to 5/4 will always be worth it, it's really a no-brainer. So everyone who has enough patience will train them first (I did so too).
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Ignignok
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Posted - 2010.10.02 11:35:00 -
[794]
I'm a bitter old 2004 vet
I've got six accounts, some newer, most 2004/2005.
All six accounts are 5/4 minimum since I planned to play long-term.
I chose to train these skills as without them, in the long run, you lose out on far too many sp. I hated training them then, and I hated training them on my newer characters, even with the 2x bonus. But it has to be done.
Since 2004, I've tried to get every gaming friend to play Eve, and only two stuck with it. Back then it was a terribly buggy game, and not much content, and had zero tutorials/NPE, so that is a big reason why none of them stuck it out.
From 2005 on though, The number one complaint from anyone I got to take the trial, was having to train those learning skills. Even now, just helping noobs out, trying to guide them, they get bogged down wasting a decent chunk of the training bonus getting +7 or more on attributes...but these skills are simply too important since they make every other skill in the game train faster.
I'd love to see all characters get +10 & +10%.
I'd love see all characters still get the yearly remap so they could still focus skill plans at max rates. (heck I'd even go for the PLEX-for-remap thing they have on SiSi if we can buy the PLEX with isk like we do now for gametime).
I'd love to see all of us bitter old vets get to allocate the sp we already put into LS's in the same way we did our 100k 'gift' sp for extended downtime.
I'd love to see Implants still be important part of the game. I still won't fly in null/wh's with my +5's and 5% hardwirings. That's a risk, and it is a good risk for players to decide on.
I don't have a problem with new players trying to catch up to bitter old vets. More players with faster/better paths into T2 and T3 ships and T2 modules etc = more interesting fights (or blobs I suppose). It would also mean a lot of us bitter old vets would get lots of killmails from newer players getting quickly into ships they didn't have experience to fly but thought they could just because they were able to get into a HAC within a couple of months.
Us bitter old vets...we know all the tricks, we already dug our trenches in nullsec and can't be moved out, only moved around.
I want other players to get rich. I want other players to get skilled and bold and take sov and put up a good fight. I want to make other players have to put money into someone else's wallet because I blew up their ship. I want to keep spending my own isk in the same fashion when they blow up my ship.
I think Eve would be even better if we could keep some of these trials accounts/noobs by not having them have to grind up learning skills for the long run and getting them into a career path faster. Some noobs are actually nobs, but for the most part, the rest want a game that offers what no other game does (things like metagaming are weak but it is part of the game and does make it much more interesting than any other I've played).
I'm not a bitter old vet afraid of noobs getting a better start than I did. I think it is a good thing. I'm only speaking from my own point of view that, one that has experienced Eve from the beta days to the present.
Btw, if you remove learning skills, can we please have Salvage Drones so we can finally use that skill?
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.02 13:36:00 -
[795]
Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 02/10/2010 13:38:03
Originally by: Malcanis The odd thing is, some people really do like learning skills. I mean it. I introduced a guy at work to EVE early this year and, despite my repeated emphatic advice, backed up with maths, he's insisted on training them to 5+5. He just really liked the idea of improving his character's stats while he's at work. It's just the way he is.
I'm not going to get in to any "silent majority" tosh and be all everyone who isn't actively complaining about them really likes them, I'm just saying that it's not quite as cut and dried as you make out.
I know it isn't clear-cut, because believe it or not, I like learning skills, too.
I'm serious. I feel a great sense of satisfaction in having them at 4/5 or 5/5 with +4/+5 implants and a good remap. It takes time to accomplish, sure, but once they're out of the way, I can say to myself, "That's done! Now I'm optimized. Cool."
I even like looking at the five little brain-head icons. They're neat, orderly and color-coded, like the Power Rangers.
Ultimately, though... ultimately, I don't feel that an additional 40 (for 4/5) or 120 (for 5/5) days of skill training for the express purpose of un-nerfing training time moving forward is good for the game. I have no stake in it either way. My characters are all done their learning skills and implants for the foreseeable future.
It boggles my mind why some people never seem to take a side that doesn't fit their personal agenda.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.02 13:53:00 -
[796]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 02/10/2010 13:38:03
Originally by: Malcanis The odd thing is, some people really do like learning skills. I mean it. I introduced a guy at work to EVE early this year and, despite my repeated emphatic advice, backed up with maths, he's insisted on training them to 5+5. He just really liked the idea of improving his character's stats while he's at work. It's just the way he is.
I'm not going to get in to any "silent majority" tosh and be all everyone who isn't actively complaining about them really likes them, I'm just saying that it's not quite as cut and dried as you make out.
I know it isn't clear-cut, because believe it or not, I like learning skills, too.
I'm serious. I feel a great sense of satisfaction in having them at 4/5 or 5/5 with +4/+5 implants and a good remap. It takes time to accomplish, sure, but once they're out of the way, I can say to myself, "That's done! Now I'm optimized. Cool."
I even like looking at the five little brain-head icons. They're neat, orderly and color-coded, like the Power Rangers.
Ultimately, though... ultimately, I don't feel that an additional 40 (for 4/5) or 120 (for 5/5) days of skill training for the express purpose of un-nerfing training time moving forward is good for the game. I have no stake in it either way. My characters are all done their learning skills and implants for the foreseeable future.
It boggles my mind why some people never seem to take a side that doesn't fit their personal agenda.
Welcome to the human race; people make instant judgments and then contruct arguments to support them.
That said, I've already factored my refunded SP into my EVEmon plan. How nice to clear out those few very useful yet awkward to train Charisma-based skills so that I can keep piling on the remap-optimised skills, further increasing my lead over new players.
Malcanis' Law strikes again.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.02 14:34:00 -
[797]
Originally by: Malcanis Welcome to the human race; people make instant judgments and then contruct arguments to support them.
That said, I've already factored my refunded SP into my EVEmon plan. How nice to clear out those few very useful yet awkward to train Charisma-based skills so that I can keep piling on the remap-optimised skills, further increasing my lead over new players.
Malcanis' Law strikes again.
It's not such a bad trade-off: new players not having to spend a few months of training learning skills, veterans getting their SP back and get some skills that don't fit into any optimal remapping schedule and CCP getting more players.
Sounds good for any of the parties involved if you'd ask me.
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Reaver Glitterstim
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Posted - 2010.10.03 22:00:00 -
[798]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
Originally by: Culmen There's a big difference between fearing change and hating stupidity.
There's a big difference between a logical argument and sarcastic overexaggeration devoid of any merit.
Some of us seem to think they are using the former when in fact they are using the latter.
The learning skills add depth to the game. You have to decide when it's worth spending time on the SP for the skill to get that attribute point that comes afterward. If that's too hard for you, then don't take on any learning skills. Either way, just shut up and rid this forum of your pathetic nonsense. Or better yet, try taking this discussion to Jita. That would be funny.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.10.03 23:39:00 -
[799]
Yes, the immersion of learning skills is awesome. New players come into the game, try to fly their frigs, train up skills. Then they eventually notice the learning skills, or come across evemon, the costs associated with the skills and the time they have to spend not training anything useful, for training useful skills again, faster.
I remember when i started, i couldn't make enough money to buy all the learning skills in due time, that wasnt a nice feeling, and training them up certainly wasn't as well. I would have liked to buy a cruiser or something with the money i made, or buy some actually useful skills, enhancing my performance, but knowing how much faster i would progress instead when i train them up, so i did.
And while i see all the "HTFU and GTFO to WoW" comments that get tossed to all the guys that say they should remove learning skills, i don't quite get why you would be afraid to get some new players here, that instantly have good skill training times... The horror.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.10.04 00:18:00 -
[800]
If we say it enough it might come true!
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
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DonHel
Gallente Kentucky Fried Capsuleer
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Posted - 2010.10.04 00:31:00 -
[801]
all i have to say is... Plex for Remap?? enough said.
this will not happen lol, nice try OP
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Voith
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Posted - 2010.10.04 00:36:00 -
[802]
Originally by: Cataca Yes, the immersion of learning skills is awesome. New players come into the game, try to fly their frigs, train up skills. Then they eventually notice the learning skills, or come across evemon, the costs associated with the skills and the time they have to spend not training anything useful, for training useful skills again, faster.
I remember when i started, i couldn't make enough money to buy all the learning skills in due time, that wasnt a nice feeling, and training them up certainly wasn't as well. I would have liked to buy a cruiser or something with the money i made, or buy some actually useful skills, enhancing my performance, but knowing how much faster i would progress instead when i train them up, so i did.
And while i see all the "HTFU and GTFO to WoW" comments that get tossed to all the guys that say they should remove learning skills, i don't quite get why you would be afraid to get some new players here, that instantly have good skill training times... The horror.
Right clicking a skill book was immersion?
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.10.04 00:41:00 -
[803]
Edited by: Misanthra on 04/10/2010 00:44:18 Edited by: Misanthra on 04/10/2010 00:43:37
Originally by: Professor Tarantula If we say it enough it might come true!
Yes and it will be good. Causee ccp fixing stuff for new players works out so well for all.
Like when ccp changed from ancestry/bloodline based stats to the current all the same stats systems . Know the OG players love the fact every new player after them has a few extra stat points to play with. CCP screwed them over...do you think they won't do it again.
look at dominion. All you low level explorers...pre dominion you needed loooooots of pita 5's to run the sites you do now in no time flat. Dominion fixed that and made it new player accessible faster, and gave nothing to the predominion types for learning those 5's. Older players loved this change, at least a couple weeks of training they could have put elsewhere (that ccp gave them no option to fix btw).
Before you ask CCP to make the game new player friendly, research your eve history. CCP does grant wishes..comes at a price though. Price is...the changes only work out best if you make alts or are a day 1 player.
Learn them or don't. This stuff ain't nothing to what you all got in store, just learn them and move on. More painful trains will makes this seem much less annoying later in the game lol.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.10.04 01:01:00 -
[804]
Oh, i agree it's something which would be for the better in many ways, and that CCP does listen sometimes, but i also find pretending it's something they're sure to do to be a bit of an underhanded way to make it happen. Feels like forcing them to do it.
It might have even caused CCP to delay the idea if they were planning it.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Voith
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Posted - 2010.10.04 01:09:00 -
[805]
Originally by: Misanthra Edited by: Misanthra on 04/10/2010 00:44:18 Edited by: Misanthra on 04/10/2010 00:43:37
Originally by: Professor Tarantula If we say it enough it might come true!
Yes and it will be good. Causee ccp fixing stuff for new players works out so well for all.
Like when ccp changed from ancestry/bloodline based stats to the current all the same stats systems . Know the OG players love the fact every new player after them has a few extra stat points to play with. CCP screwed them over...do you think they won't do it again.
look at dominion. All you low level explorers...pre dominion you needed loooooots of pita 5's to run the sites you do now in no time flat. Dominion fixed that and made it new player accessible faster, and gave nothing to the predominion types for learning those 5's. Older players loved this change, at least a couple weeks of training they could have put elsewhere (that ccp gave them no option to fix btw).
Before you ask CCP to make the game new player friendly, research your eve history. CCP does grant wishes..comes at a price though. Price is...the changes only work out best if you make alts or are a day 1 player.
Learn them or don't. This stuff ain't nothing to what you all got in store, just learn them and move on. More painful trains will makes this seem much less annoying later in the game lol.
Back in my day I trained up hill both ways to school!
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.10.04 01:45:00 -
[806]
Other than skill training times, what use do attributes have?
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.10.04 01:52:00 -
[807]
I installed the optional patch and it did not fix the bug that the original 1.0 patch introduced, where everytime I log in, my chat windows are all broken apart (instead of stacked). Its a bit of pain having to redo those.
Otherwise, haven't noticed anything.
Oh - the Optional Patch fixed the audio klaxon that went off when I opened my scanner (that was introduced by the 1.0 patch).
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ModeratedToSilence
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Posted - 2010.10.04 01:55:00 -
[808]
I to like learning skills.
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2010.10.04 04:46:00 -
[809]
I don't believe I have posted in this thread yet.
Well, now I have.
Mr Epeen
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.04 13:07:00 -
[810]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Apparently there's a lot of people, newbs and veterans alike, who aren't too happy with the leatrning skills - either as a whole or in their current form - and they want to express their discontent. 26+ pages would indicate that it's quite a serious issue for a lot of people. Especially as there's another 26+ page thread in the skills forum about the same subject. And it's the most frequently mentioned reason in the long "Why don't more people play EVE" thread.
If you'd ask me I'd say it should tell CCP something.
You make it sound like all those pages are people pro removal, but this is infact not the case, if you go look at the proposal in the Assembly Hall, it has 636 replies and only 203 supports. [Proposal] Learning skills solution
A clearer case for example is the [proposal] No trading Plex's for Neural Remapping Where there are 793 replies and 545 supports.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.04 13:19:00 -
[811]
Originally by: CyberGh0st
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Apparently there's a lot of people, newbs and veterans alike, who aren't too happy with the leatrning skills - either as a whole or in their current form - and they want to express their discontent. 26+ pages would indicate that it's quite a serious issue for a lot of people. Especially as there's another 26+ page thread in the skills forum about the same subject. And it's the most frequently mentioned reason in the long "Why don't more people play EVE" thread.
If you'd ask me I'd say it should tell CCP something.
You make it sound like all those pages are people pro removal, but this is infact not the case, if you go look at the proposal in the Assembly Hall, it has 636 replies and only 203 supports. [Proposal] Learning skills solution
A clearer case for example is the [proposal] No trading Plex's for Neural Remapping Where there are 793 replies and 545 supports.
Problem: If you post twice or even *gasp* 10 times in the thread for the purpose of discussing it you can only support ONCE. so its NOT a proof that 433 people are against the proposal. Perhaps the 203 people have posted more than once and are raging against 20 people against the proposal ^^
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.04 13:32:00 -
[812]
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 04/10/2010 13:32:57 How about taking a middle-road? Remove the basic attribute-specific learning skills, add +5 to all chars, and set Learning V to be the requirement for the advanced skills, that now take twice as long to learn. That way, Learning skills will truly be a matter of choice, as the returns are less in the short run.
Edit: Snajpa
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.04 13:47:00 -
[813]
How about we just leave it the way it is?
The cacophonous whining of spoiled bittervets will keep this game in a vice grip of top-heaviness and stagnation until the server cluster shuts down. It's only a question of when, and at this point everyone's energy is wasted discussing any one of these issues... because changes are, none of them will be addressed. Even if one or two of them are, it will only extend the game's lifespan by a year at the outside.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.04 17:50:00 -
[814]
Most of the people arguing against it didn't take the time to read the op.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.04 18:06:00 -
[815]
Quote: The cacophonous whining of spoiled bittervets will keep this game in a vice grip of top-heaviness and stagnation until the server cluster shuts down. It's only a question of when, and at this point everyone's energy is wasted discussing any one of these issues... because chances are, none of them will be addressed. Even if one or two of them are, it will only extend the game's lifespan by a year at the outside.
Eve is dying
Quote: Most of the people arguing against it didn't take the time to read the op.
If CCP did everything the op said why would we need to remove learning skills?
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.04 18:15:00 -
[816]
Originally by: Arakash Mond Eve is dying
Didn't see THAT one coming.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.04 18:16:00 -
[817]
wow dude...
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills)
You avoid all of my questions to you like the plague. Why don't you take it back a couple pages and start addressing some om the things I asked you to answer back there.
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DonHel
Gallente Kentucky Fried Capsuleer
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Posted - 2010.10.04 18:26:00 -
[818]
Originally by: DonHel all i have to say is... Plex for Remap?? enough said.
this will not happen lol, nice try OP
Oh, and what about the trillions of isk invested across the universe in Implants... It may all sound good but it just can't be done lol.. maybe if we had a time machine and could go back to day 1
my space-time-continuam trans functioner crystal got burned out, you got one to spare?
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.04 18:38:00 -
[819]
Quote: Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
This is what you asked and I answered your question. If learning skills were never introduced there would have been no way to up your attributes 50 points and +10% faster training time. Therefore learning skills were added. I think what you are saying is CCP should have just started all characters out with 19 in each attribute. Bottom line is learning skills are the straw man in arguments used by those who think skill training takes too long. Skill training time should be what your argument is about. Sorry Orange for the eve is dying bit but I almost felt your tears in that last post. I should have been more sympathetic.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.04 19:17:00 -
[820]
Originally by: Arakash Mond This is what you asked and I answered your question. If learning skills were never introduced there would have been no way to up your attributes 50 points and +10% faster training time. Therefore learning skills were added.
You only said what happened, you still have not made any sort of argument (in the case that they never existed) for why learning skills should be added.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.04 19:50:00 -
[821]
Edited by: Arakash Mond on 04/10/2010 19:55:26 Edited by: Arakash Mond on 04/10/2010 19:51:38 Edited by: Arakash Mond on 04/10/2010 19:51:08
Quote: You only said what happened, you still have not made any sort of argument (in the case that they never existed) for why learning skills should be added.
The following is a hypothetical conversation to support the creation of learning skills. All the names used have no relation to anyone living or dead.
Reynir: "Whew, finally were finished with the game!"
Ivan: "You know some of the gamers we're trying to attract are pretty used to insta gratification type games. They may blanche at the length of time some of the skill training takes."
Thorolfur: "Perhaps we are better off without those types of gamers. They tend to make long posts in the public forums complaining about how long it takes to do anything in any game. Except for WoW of course."
Reynir: "No,no we need their money too. I have a great idea for a first person shooter just for them in the future, for now let's compromise. Let's give those who want a chance to decrease ther skill training time a way to do so by adding learning skills. It's a compromise see."
Thorlfur: "You know if you do that people will use that against you and say that fundamentally skill training takes too long. Why else would we allow them this shortcut?"
Reynir: "People won't do that. They will appreciate that it takes a bit of planning and effort and time to create a character in this game. And that there are consequences for their actions or inactions. People don't want cookie cutter characters."
The room goes quiet. Then everyone begins to laugh even Reynir, when he realizes the joke he has made
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.04 20:00:00 -
[822]
This is really how you are going to try to hold your ground?
How about I give you another try and you give it a real effort. Sell learning skills to the community. Make sure it is exactly the mechanic of learning skills that you are selling. Maybe reference some assembly hall threads and F&I threads for some help on how to propose a feature.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:17:00 -
[823]
Originally by: Hesperius This is really how you are going to try to hold your ground?
Yes, some people honestly believe they're clever and/or sophisticated, and proudly march forth to bang out sheer idiocy on their keyboards.
Logical fallacy? What's that?
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JacobsGladedage
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:25:00 -
[824]
Edited by: JacobsGladedage on 04/10/2010 21:27:15 I wonder how many people would support the removal of learning skills if CCP didn't give everyone the 10 attribute points for free. I bet it's very few.
Sure learning skills were a mistake but so were the tech 2 blue print lottery and since there are no real solutions to either problems they're most likely not going away.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:37:00 -
[825]
Originally by: JacobsGladedage I wonder how many people would support the removal of learning skills if CCP didn't give everyone the 10 attribute points for free. I bet it's very few.
No, because that completely defeats the point, doesn't it? Without learning skills, training speed is ******ed.
The whole idea behind removing them is to give new players a couple months' boost without a stupid, meaningless roadblock. If everything takes 3x longer to train....
Originally by: JacobsGladedage Sure learning skills were a mistake, so was the tech 2 blue print original lottery. But since it's had a profound impact on the game for years I wouldn't hold my breath for them to go away.
Unlike the BPO lottery debacle, learning skills can easily be fixed right now.
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JacobsGladedage
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:41:00 -
[826]
Edited by: JacobsGladedage on 04/10/2010 21:43:29
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Unlike the BPO lottery debacle, learning skills can easily be fixed right now.
CCP can give me the skill points I've put into learning back, but they can't give me the 3 months it took on my 3 characters.
Then there are people who've spend ISK or money buying characters with learning skills ready and so on.
So no, it can't be without ****ing off a lot of people.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:49:00 -
[827]
Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 04/10/2010 21:54:11
Originally by: JacobsGladedage CCP can give me the skill points I've put into learning back, but they can't give me the 3 months it took on my 3 characters.
Then there are people who've spend ISK or money buying characters with learning skills ready and so on.
So no, it can't be without ****ing off a lot of people.
Only a complete and total idiot intent on the fraternity initiation mindset would be ****ed off at retaining the same attributes and training speed that their characters had previously (more than that, if you only trained one month's worth per character), while receiving several million SP in recompense.
It's idiocy, plain and simple.
In case I need to explain in detail, it's idiotic because any anger someone might experience over such a change would be the result of looking at newly-created characters and saying, "Hey, they're not going through a process I feel they should have to go through." It surely wouldn't be due to you or your own characters, since you'd only be gaining, and losing out on nothing.
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.10.04 22:18:00 -
[828]
Originally by: JacobsGladedage Edited by: JacobsGladedage on 04/10/2010 21:43:29
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Unlike the BPO lottery debacle, learning skills can easily be fixed right now.
CCP can give me the skill points I've put into learning back, but they can't give me the 3 months it took on my 3 characters.
Then there are people who've spend ISK or money buying characters with learning skills ready and so on.
So no, it can't be without ****ing off a lot of people.
No one can give you those three months back. If that really is your stance on the subject then you must be a very difficult person to talk to. Demanding something impossible as reparations is pretty child-like imo.
The buying and selling of high sp characters will always exist. Know it, understand it, commit it to memory, then put it our of your mind because dwelling on it longer than it takes to remember it is totally useless.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.10.04 22:49:00 -
[829]
Originally by: Voith
Originally by: Cataca Yes, the immersion of learning skills is awesome. New players come into the game, try to fly their frigs, train up skills. Then they eventually notice the learning skills, or come across evemon, the costs associated with the skills and the time they have to spend not training anything useful, for training useful skills again, faster.
I remember when i started, i couldn't make enough money to buy all the learning skills in due time, that wasnt a nice feeling, and training them up certainly wasn't as well. I would have liked to buy a cruiser or something with the money i made, or buy some actually useful skills, enhancing my performance, but knowing how much faster i would progress instead when i train them up, so i did.
And while i see all the "HTFU and GTFO to WoW" comments that get tossed to all the guys that say they should remove learning skills, i don't quite get why you would be afraid to get some new players here, that instantly have good skill training times... The horror.
Right clicking a skill book was immersion?
No, but finishing something that does actually contribute to your character other than training contributing character skills up was indeed more gratifying.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.04 23:36:00 -
[830]
Originally by: Cataca No, but finishing something that does actually contribute to your character other than training contributing character skills up was indeed more gratifying.
I just had to quote that before you edit it. Cause its funny.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.05 00:13:00 -
[831]
Originally by: Cataca No, but finishing something that does actually contribute to your character other than training contributing character skills up was indeed more gratifying.
I'm not sure what that even means. Are you saying that doing things other than skill training is gratifying? Yeah, I agree ... but that has no bearing on a discussion about learning skills?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Eris Davion
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Posted - 2010.10.05 00:39:00 -
[832]
Originally by: Cataca
No, but finishing something that does actually contribute to your character other than training contributing character skills up was indeed more gratifying.
I'll grant that for the specific "access" levels (ie. the ones that open up access to new mods or skills.) But for the rest, it's just minor increments that - while useful - aren't a big deal.
Learning 5 is about on par, IMO, with Negotiation 5 for a mission runner.
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Shwedagon Paya
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Posted - 2010.10.05 01:02:00 -
[833]
Besides which, the very concept of "attribute" skills is just preposterous.
If you could actually take a correspondence course to increase your intelligence and charisma, the EVE forums would be much easier on the eyes.
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Kryspy Katarene
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Posted - 2010.10.05 01:09:00 -
[834]
I hear the optional patch tomorrow is a test run of removing learning skills.
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Voith
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Posted - 2010.10.05 02:24:00 -
[835]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cataca No, but finishing something that does actually contribute to your character other than training contributing character skills up was indeed more gratifying.
I'm not sure what that even means. Are you saying that doing things other than skill training is gratifying? Yeah, I agree ... but that has no bearing on a discussion about learning skills?
-Liang
If right clicking something and waiting 4 hours for the rest of your training to be done 5% faster causes immersion you must **** yourself just looking at something in 3d.
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2010.10.05 03:10:00 -
[836]
Just remove the learning skills and introduce "plex for attribute" feature that redeems one plex for a permanent single attribute point increase (with no caps on the attribute), CCP would make a fortune from it without ever having to directly sell SP and making people rage on the forums.
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Jane Griffin
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Posted - 2010.10.05 03:26:00 -
[837]
Edited by: Jane Griffin on 05/10/2010 03:27:49 Is this still going on? I thought i resolved it...
As someone who though i would be against removing learning skills, i surprised myself when i decided that they arnt really necessary...
Also, giving an instant +10 makes it too easy for people making ninja alts and other low SP specialised alts.
The solution is, no learning skills, but +1 to each attribute each week for the first 10 weeks until the +10 is reached.
Remaps remain unchanged so even though learning skill times are levelled, specialisation is still a requirement.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.05 07:36:00 -
[838]
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Originally by: CyberGh0st
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Apparently there's a lot of people, newbs and veterans alike, who aren't too happy with the leatrning skills - either as a whole or in their current form - and they want to express their discontent. 26+ pages would indicate that it's quite a serious issue for a lot of people. Especially as there's another 26+ page thread in the skills forum about the same subject. And it's the most frequently mentioned reason in the long "Why don't more people play EVE" thread.
If you'd ask me I'd say it should tell CCP something.
You make it sound like all those pages are people pro removal, but this is infact not the case, if you go look at the proposal in the Assembly Hall, it has 636 replies and only 203 supports. [Proposal] Learning skills solution
A clearer case for example is the [proposal] No trading Plex's for Neural Remapping Where there are 793 replies and 545 supports.
Problem: If you post twice or even *gasp* 10 times in the thread for the purpose of discussing it you can only support ONCE. so its NOT a proof that 433 people are against the proposal. Perhaps the 203 people have posted more than once and are raging against 20 people against the proposal ^^
You can keep spinning it how you want, it is pretty clear there is less consensus over removing learning skills than there is for example about not introducing plex for remaps.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Cupio Mortem
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Posted - 2010.10.05 07:52:00 -
[839]
Originally by: CyberGh0st You can keep spinning it how you want, it is pretty clear there is less consensus over removing learning skills than there is for example about not introducing plex for remaps.
Lul. The same people are butthurt over both, for the most part, and are just against letting people who haven't played as long of them have any sort of chance against them, thus keeping the crippling of expansion in Eve firmly in place. People vs. Change. Kind of like Republicans vs. Evolution. Oh well.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.05 08:04:00 -
[840]
Originally by: CyberGh0st You can keep spinning it how you want, it is pretty clear there is less consensus over removing learning skills than there is for example about not introducing plex for remaps.
Well I'm sorry but the post you're referring to had the proposal SP which player had been invested in "Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster." Which is kind of confusing.
Next to that I don't think the Assembly Hall posters are really representative for EVE's total playerbase. It would be nice if CCP would do an official player survey.
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2010.10.05 08:08:00 -
[841]
This sums it up for me. Couldn't have written it better:
Originally by: Catari Taga
Learning skills are a nice balance between people wanting instant gratification and people who are anal about min/maxing their character. I didn't do learning skills right away (why would I do that, I wanted to play the game...) and haven't maxed them out even now although things like EVEmon will tell me I'd save 3 weeks of trainig over the next few years. So what? I've lost more days of training by not training at all (in particular before we had a queue) than I would ever get back by learning skills, can't say I'm feeling like a gimped character though.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.05 10:22:00 -
[842]
Edited by: CyberGh0st on 05/10/2010 10:29:51
Originally by: Cupio Mortem
Originally by: CyberGh0st You can keep spinning it how you want, it is pretty clear there is less consensus over removing learning skills than there is for example about not introducing plex for remaps.
Lul. The same people are butthurt over both, for the most part, and are just against letting people who haven't played as long of them have any sort of chance against them, thus keeping the crippling of expansion in Eve firmly in place. People vs. Change. Kind of like Republicans vs. Evolution. Oh well.
You are so waay off the mark, really, vets that are playing 2+ years really don't worry when newbies get some perks, it is peanuts. Newbies will never catch up to vets in regards of absolute skillpoints, unless you completely change the system.
Honestly I think to attract even more new players than they already did over the years, other things should be done, like fixing and streamlining the UI, fleshing out content that never really got finished ( Cosmos, Factional Warfare, ... ), making sound actually work ( starting by reversing to Pre-Apocrypha and build further from there ).
But to show you how much a bitter vet I am, I will say, give all newbies 4/3 in learning, with no compensations for the vets. Then the so called "smart" people, don't have to give the "good" advice to newbies to stay docked and learn all the learning skills first, but learn combat or trade skills first. To make it even better, make the 100% training boost last till 3.2m skillpoints instead of 1.6m
I will make a bet with you, that once learning skills are removed, the next thing people will moan over is level 5 skills and the point of it, or training over time in general.
I can live with an experience based game, played them all my life ( before EVE ), so I would not mind grinding NPC's to gain XP for my next level. So go ahead and do it, np, I even proposed it myself a while back.
But stop asking something for nothing and stop dumbing down the game.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Nuts Nougat
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.10.05 10:44:00 -
[843]
Learning skills can be removed, but only if everyone's attributes stay as they are currently. I am only saying this because I trained all learnings to 5. ---
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Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.10.05 10:54:00 -
[844]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat Learning skills can be removed, but only if everyone's attributes stay as they are currently. I am only saying this because I trained all learnings to 5.
Not going to happen.
If we do get learning skills removed then all characters should recieve a boost to their base attributes to compensate for it.
Any SP already spent on learning skills is to be refunded and useable like we already have done once before.
It's nothing that hasnt already been repeated a thousand times before though.
Originally by: CCP Capslock
OH GOD THE TESTING
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JacobsGladedage
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:19:00 -
[845]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Only a complete and total idiot intent on the fraternity initiation mindset would be ****ed off at retaining the same attributes and training speed that their characters had previously (more than that, if you only trained one month's worth per character), while receiving several million SP in recompense.
It's idiocy, plain and simple.
Oh I agree, but I never said anything about wanting an unfair distribution of attributes based on whatever skillpoints people have now.
I just pointed out nobody would care about the learning skill debate if it wasn't because they wanted something for free.
Originally by: Ehgrimm Demanding something impossible as reparations is pretty child-like imo.
I'm not demanding anything I simply said I don't think CCP will remove something that has had such a profound impact on the game for so long.
You may think it's we're being silly angry children because we don't want others to have something we made choices and sacrifices to get, for free. But I honestly picked up on that doing the first 27 pages. :p
Time may prove me wrong, but I'm just two days from finishing 5/4 learning on my latest alt and I guess that speaks for itself? ;)
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:23:00 -
[846]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph It's not fine how it is. Delete learning skills.
See how easy that is? This thread can be summed up very succintly:
NUH-UH
UH-HUH
NUH-UH
*sniffity sniff* Ahhh yes, this post wafts of noob not wanting to train learning skills. Well, we all did and now it's your turn. QQ
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.10.05 21:21:00 -
[847]
Originally by: Voith
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cataca No, but finishing something that does actually contribute to your character other than training contributing character skills up was indeed more gratifying.
I'm not sure what that even means. Are you saying that doing things other than skill training is gratifying? Yeah, I agree ... but that has no bearing on a discussion about learning skills?
-Liang
If right clicking something and waiting 4 hours for the rest of your training to be done 5% faster causes immersion you must **** yourself just looking at something in 3d.
drunken posting skills ftw.
Anyway, i was beeing sarcastic in my first post, it adds nothing to the game is what i meant. Reread it and you will notice that.. maybe.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.10.05 21:46:00 -
[848]
Quote: If we do get learning skills removed then all characters should recieve a boost to their base attributes to compensate for it.
Absolutely not.
If you think learning skills add nothing, thats fine.
Either replace them with a better system (I have yet to see one proposed) or take everyone back down to base skills.
The less time training takes, the less important your decisions concerning your characters career path are.
Speeding up training without having to make some serious decisions, or taking some risks, is not a desirable outcome. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2010.10.05 22:16:00 -
[849]
When i started to play this game I soon found out that things require quite some time to train. After a "false start" I decided to make this character and train the support and learning skills first, the so called "int/mem" skills.
I'm also playing other games at the moment and don't login a lot until I'm done doing those skills. I've trained intelligence to 5/5 and memory to 5/4. I still think it's not going very fast but I don't really mind. I just take my time: somewhere in november I'll start training ships and weapons, to which I'm looking forward to. I've done tutorials, some missions, tried some basics of the game and read a lot of tips and tricks and what ships and setups are recommended for what.
I can imagine though that if you want to jump right into the game those learning skills aren't something you'll like. And honestly I don't really see why they require so much extra time to train, there's quite a lot of them. But well that's how they designed the game, it just means I'll be playing other games for a few extra months before I can concentrate on EVE. I've read a lot of good things about it so I hope it will be nice to explore all the parts of the game I haven't done yet.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.05 23:12:00 -
[850]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Speeding up training without having to make some serious decisions....
Serious decisions? Learning skills are a one-dimensional, linear no-brainer. The one and only correct choice is to train them all to at least IV/V as soon as possible.
The "serious decision" you speak of is essentially a rookie's choice between being bored out of their mind for a month or nerfing their training efficiency by scrabbling for at least a few helpful skills in the interim.
You don't want learning skills changed because you embrace the fraternity initiation mindset, period. It upsets you to think that a rookie might not have to go through the same hardships you went through. Your paper-thin arguments that dance around this core fact don't fool me.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.06 11:50:00 -
[851]
Hmm I am starting to think that the advocates for removing the learning skills are not interested in getting new players, they are just bitter vets that never trained them ;p
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Forum Guy
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Posted - 2010.10.06 11:56:00 -
[852]
I wish!
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.06 13:05:00 -
[853]
Originally by: CyberGh0st
And what about the newbie that starts 1 month later, he will never be able to catch up ...
This so true, what with being able to train a skill to ever higher levels without any limit or cap. Suck it new guys, I'm already on Amarr Cruiser VIII and you'll never be better than me MANIACAL LAUGHTER!!!!!!11111oneomgbbq
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.10.06 13:36:00 -
[854]
Edited by: Arkanor on 06/10/2010 13:37:47
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote: If we do get learning skills removed then all characters should recieve a boost to their base attributes to compensate for it.
Absolutely not.
If you think learning skills add nothing, thats fine.
Either replace them with a better system (I have yet to see one proposed) or take everyone back down to base skills.
The less time training takes, the less important your decisions concerning your characters career path are.
Speeding up training without having to make some serious decisions, or taking some risks, is not a desirable outcome.
"Serious decisions in your characters' career path"? People don't make those.
Want a combat char? Remap and go! Want an mining char? Well you're all set for combat, roll a specialized alt instead Want a capital character? Roll another alt
etc.
This game rewards specialization fairly heavily, the result is not people planning ahead, but rolling more optimized characters for each individual job. That breaks immersion, at least to me to know that I need to be 3 people at once to be anywhere near peak efficiency.
Cutting the learning skills certainly won't solve that issue, people will still take every edge they can get, but training times don't need to be any longer.
Still supporting removal even with NO compensation, it's just a garbage mechanic that needs removal.
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ImCoolerThanYou
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Posted - 2010.11.25 17:33:00 -
[855]
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Shaalira D'arc
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Posted - 2010.11.25 18:40:00 -
[856]
Originally by: democrities
Originally by: Deizel Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.
This will result in:
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
Uh huh. Sure buddy. Right, and guess what, next week I'm going to find out I've won the powerball while getting it with Sandra Oh in the back of a Lamborghini being driven by Vida Guerra through a lot on the playboy mansion watching a photoshoot.
What were the winning numbers?
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Limvala Adur
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:15:00 -
[857]
I can't stop laughing! The above poster is my hero!!
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:17:00 -
[858]
Anyone found names of players promising to leave when the learning skills would be removed?
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Gordon McClaine
Caldari The Black Company TBC
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:30:00 -
[859]
good riddens to learning skills.. WOOP WOOP!
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:34:00 -
[860]
I really like the attitude of wrapping stuff up as "present" whilst saying "you MUST take it" combined with "we have no time to think of anything better"...
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Prophet Rising
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:51:00 -
[861]
I'm really not too sure what to think about this learning skills thing. Don't really care about my existing toons, couldn't care less. But I just started a new toon 2 weeks ago with the intent of getting into T3 QUICKLY, spent money and time on learning skills, and now what? No more 100% training time... Does this mean I should kill him and start over?? This is the only part of this that I can't wrap my head around: starting a new toon only to have what I've done so far go into the crapper.
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Biocross
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Posted - 2010.11.25 22:12:00 -
[862]
Originally by: Borun Tal I'm really not too sure what to think about this learning skills thing. Don't really care about my existing toons, couldn't care less. But I just started a new toon 2 weeks ago with the intent of getting into T3 QUICKLY, spent money and time on learning skills, and now what? No more 100% training time... Does this mean I should kill him and start over?? This is the only part of this that I can't wrap my head around: starting a new toon only to have what I've done so far go into the crapper.
Your character is gonna get into T3 even faster. Allow me to explain: It has the bonus now, the bonus is not dissapearing until the 1600000 sp line, or the learnings are removed. All points you spend on learnings until that time will be free to realocate instantly at that time into whatever you want.
What does this mean?
Well, it means that if you already got the books (and it woulda been a good idea to have got them because they are no longer seeded and have shot in price), if you start training learnings on that toon (which you were gonna do anyway) you will be training at 4 k sp or so before long. Then ue whichever attributes you maxes to train relevant skills as you would normally.
BUT: When the learnings go, get your attributes set to max learnings, and all the sp you spent on them back. This can easily go towards the T3 you want.. or whatever else for that matter. It should make you get it faster, actually.
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Prophet Rising
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Posted - 2010.11.25 22:16:00 -
[863]
Originally by: Biocross Your character is gonna get into T3 even faster. Allow me to explain: It has the bonus now, the bonus is not dissapearing until the 1600000 sp line, or the learnings are removed. All points you spend on learnings until that time will be free to realocate instantly at that time into whatever you want.
OK, well, correct me if I'm wrong, but in Greyscale's dev blog dated today (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824&utm_source=newsletter49&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter49) he specifically says the bonus will go away immediately, at tonight's downtime. So no bonus in the morning...
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kurg
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Posted - 2010.11.25 22:17:00 -
[864]
About time, i for one am glad this is being done .. FINALLY!
and to all the nay sayers ..... IN YO FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Biocross
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Posted - 2010.11.25 22:23:00 -
[865]
Originally by: Borun Tal
Originally by: Biocross Your character is gonna get into T3 even faster. Allow me to explain: It has the bonus now, the bonus is not dissapearing until the 1600000 sp line, or the learnings are removed. All points you spend on learnings until that time will be free to realocate instantly at that time into whatever you want.
OK, well, correct me if I'm wrong, but in Greyscale's dev blog dated today (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824&utm_source=newsletter49&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter49) he specifically says the bonus will go away immediately, at tonight's downtime. So no bonus in the morning...
No problem, here is the relevant quote:
HEREFORE, let it be understood that we have now the following plan:
As of downtime today, all NPC sell orders for the eleven skills in the Learning group (hereafter referred to as "learning skills") have been CANCELLED. They're really not much use in the long run, we don't want to complicate later steps with unusual inflows of skillbooks, and it might go some way towards limiting the amount of scams that we know you're going to be running. Please, think of the children newbies. FURTHERMORE, as of a patch which should arrive on (or about) the 14th of December:
ALL LEARNING SKILLS WILL DISAPPEAR We're not kidding. In your head, in your hangar or in your anything else, they're gone. Vamoosh. Deleted. Sent to the big recycle bin in the sky. Etc etc. All skillpoints invested in learning skills will be reimbursed, including all the fiddly corner cases. If you have 2,012,692 SP in learning, you will find yourself down those skills, but with 2,012,692 skillpoints to redistribute. All skillbooks not currently injected into people's heads will be reimbursed at the old NPC sell price. The money will go to whichever character or corporation owns the container that the skillbooks are in. For example, things in cans you've anchored for yourself will be reimbursed to you, things in corporate hangar arrays or the "deliveries" bin will be reimbursed to the owning corporation. This will also involve cancelling any and all market orders containing these skills. Contracts containing learning skills will have those skillbooks substituted for copies of the Pax Amarria. All new and existing characters will have an extra 12 base points (ie, non-remappable) in each attribute. The 100% training speed bonus up to 1.6m SP will no longer be available. People partway through this bonus will lose the remaining bonus amount. They will of course gain a huge attribute bonus to make up for it. Miscellaneous other cleanup tasks will be performed that are not very interesting, details available on request.
The only thing going away at downtime is the seeded books. The bonus is in till "a patch which should arrive on (or about) the 14th of December"
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Prophet Rising
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Posted - 2010.11.25 22:30:00 -
[866]
Edited by: Borun Tal on 25/11/2010 22:29:58
Originally by: Biocross --snippage--
Ah, you're quite right. I misinterpreted what was happening tonight vs next month. I stand corrected, and thanks! :)
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Biocross
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Posted - 2010.11.25 22:36:00 -
[867]
No problem, I myself will be flying my newly skilled Legion after the change ;)
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Ytec
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Posted - 2010.11.25 23:44:00 -
[868]
Hi!
I read about this change in the developer blog but I really don't understand why they are taking away the learning skills. So, why are they doing that? And will everyone have the same amount of attribute points after this upcoming update? And I can't really say that I understand the graphs in the blog post. Like, what is TQ?
//Daniel
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Boinz
Caldari Muffin Munchers
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Posted - 2010.11.26 00:09:00 -
[869]
Edited by: Boinz on 26/11/2010 00:08:58
Originally by: Ytec Hi!
I read about this change in the developer blog but I really don't understand why they are taking away the learning skills. So, why are they doing that? And will everyone have the same amount of attribute points after this upcoming update? And I can't really say that I understand the graphs in the blog post. Like, what is TQ?
//Daniel
TQ = tranquility yes everyone will have the same amount of attribute points. I dont know why they are doing it but its pretty obvious imo, Its an annoying game feature which turned a lot of people away from the game. And they said that they themselves regret implementing it.
Originally by: Blane Xero
Sorry, what?
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.26 06:23:00 -
[870]
Originally by: Ytec I read about this change in the developer blog but I really don't understand why they are taking away the learning skills. So, why are they doing that?
Read the first comments in the thread - they're all by CCP Devs. Perhaps it helps you to understand.
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