Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 [14] 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 30 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Dek Kato
Amarr
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:19:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Dek Kato My last post
I'm not an expert but as I can imagine it's all in tables and they could easily query the amount of SP per character that has to be refunded.
Well, from the Youtube video people are sourcing the "CCP hates learning skills" bit from, when they mention the idea of just reimbursing people the SP and ISK for the skills, they mention the database guy glaring at them. So I really don't think its that simple and I really don't think they fixed those issues with a simple SP granting system. Its just a new level of complexity to what I imagine was a very simple tool.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Thread locked due to troll convention.
|
Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:22:00 -
[392]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 22:24:54
Originally by: Felix Esperium
They do provide a tangible benefit, which is why everyone wants this ridiculous attribute buff if they are removed.
-When was the last time a gang leader asked you what your frigate construction skill level was? Because this never happens does that mean the skill provides no tangible benefit?- edit: just reread your post and this part fails, my bad.
No worries, it is easy to get discombobulated in these threadnaughts.
They do not provide a tangible benefit to game play, they provide a direct benefite to skill training times of individual pilots. This may be a bridge we may not cross but it is not a breaker for either side of the argument.
I see your side of the argument, I do, but I come from a pen and paper background where in some games all characters started with a maximum number of attribute points that they could distribute anyway they see fit. I do no think that this is a cut and dry argument, but the crux is that a very small percentage of the population actually has LS trained to 5/5 and will actually suffer from any change to the system. I also agree that every choice in EVE should have a consequence, but I think the learnign skills are just a real funny and aggrevating aspect of EVE that really adds little to the game experiance.
I think maybe giving everyone +5 to each attribute and creating higher learning implants would be a good comprimise. Obviously things would need to be tweaked as it has to with drop rates of implants, but that way pilots can choose to train faster and then can truely have consequences for the decision to have their learnign skills attributes so high.
But seriously, any new player coming into this game is going to hear about learning skills. The first skill they want to take to level 5 is when they will be like, gosh I need to train those learning skills cause this is going to take too long and other skills are going to be horrible.
Couple this with the do and do not trian the LS early crowds and the price of the advanced learnign skills, this can be a huge turnoff to a new player, and CCP realizes this. They are a business and they want to find a better way to do this. We just need to help flesh it out.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Obyrith
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:30:00 -
[393]
Edited by: Obyrith on 02/07/2010 22:37:14
Originally by: Dek Kato
Well, from the Youtube video people are sourcing the "CCP hates learning skills" bit from, when they mention the idea of just reimbursing people the SP and ISK for the skills, they mention the database guy glaring at them. So I really don't think its that simple and I really don't think they fixed those issues with a simple SP granting system. Its just a new level of complexity to what I imagine was a very simple tool.
Maybe it was complicated but the problems were solved during the SP-re-embursement-tool-coding stage.
Re-embursing the isk would be more complex, because it would require crediting everyone's wallets with the value of any Learning Skillbooks they own, not just the ones they've injected - or the setting up of large NPC buy orders for skillbooks that are no longer sold at their original price. It's doable but not super-simple.
Originally by: Slade Trillgon I think maybe giving everyone +5 to each attribute and creating higher learning implants would be a good comprimise. Obviously things would need to be tweaked as it has to with drop rates of implants, but that way pilots can choose to train faster and then can truely have consequences for the decision to have their learnign skills attributes so high.
Not that I hate this idea, but it would be a giant cluster**** to implement on so many levels. All the implants in the game already have set percieved values, but that value would be changed completely even by tweaking the drop rates, let alone introducing +6 to +10 implants.
What happens to people who trade in attribute implants in that kind of situation, and have large stocks, I would not want to try to predict. Most likely they'd discover their +4s and +5s were suddenly worth much less.
|
RatKnight1
Gallente Mahdi Followers
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:39:00 -
[394]
I don't care one way or the other what happens to LS's... I had just better get the SP for the level 5's I did if they take them away. That was a lot of training time that I could have put towards something else. [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=RatKnight1][/u |
Ori Blake
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 22:48:00 -
[395]
I think the game is boring for a lot of people if we can get 14 page threads over whether or not to remove learning skills based on a SP reimbursement mechanism. I would say less forum arguing, and more going into game and making things happen.
|
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:09:00 -
[396]
ok instead of just saying "no" all the time I will throw in an idea.
Remove learning skills, give no free attributes, give learning SP back, implants stay the same.
Tie learning/attribute enhancement into the new player experience. Make the tutorials more involved and have them actually teach you how to play the game and give attribute points upon completion.
Each attribute should come from different sorts of tasks. Just as an example of what I'm thinking you could award a point of perception for fitting your ship, then another for shooting some rats, then another for getting your noob ship blown up (too many noobs are afraid of death) then maybe another for shooting a player ship, then one for surviving a GCC for a full 15 minutes. And so on for the rest of the points, with each task getting slightly more difficult. Willpower points could be gained from using drones or taking a tour of lowsec or something. Charisma points could be gained by trading or joining a player corp. etc...
This way we aren't giving things out for free, new players get attributes without having to train for them, noobs get involved and actually learn the game while "training learning skills", they get out of highsec and experience a little of the variety the game has to offer before becoming mindless slaves to the mining/mission grind, and vets would be mildly inconvenienced but would most likely be able to accomplish all the tasks very quickly and painlessly. Make sure everything can be done from 0.0 too so people aren't forced to make a trip to empire if they don't want to. I would expect the total time of these attribute gathering missions to take maybe a few days to a week for a brand new player.
Unfortunately, this would be very annoying for alts an I haven't yet thought of a good way around that. Maybe someone else has an idea.
|
SirRalph
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:11:00 -
[397]
Learning skills are about 5 million skillpoints, wich is about 1/4th of the amount of skillpoints you can train in a year when you're maxed out.
They contribute absolutely nothing in the game.
Or is there some ****ing ******s thinking that LEARNING THE ****ING SKILLS IS SOMEKIND OF PVP?!?!??!?!
|
Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:14:00 -
[398]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 23:23:03 Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 23:21:12
Originally by: Felix Esperium ok instead of just saying "no" all the time I will throw in an idea.
Remove learning skills, give no free attributes, give learning SP back, implants stay the same.
Tie learning/attribute enhancement into the new player experience. Make the tutorials more involved and have them actually teach you how to play the game and give attribute points upon completion.
Each attribute should come from different sorts of tasks. Just as an example of what I'm thinking you could award a point of perception for fitting your ship, then another for shooting some rats, then another for getting your noob ship blown up (too many noobs are afraid of death) then maybe another for shooting a player ship, then one for surviving a GCC for a full 15 minutes. And so on for the rest of the points, with each task getting slightly more difficult. Willpower points could be gained from using drones or taking a tour of lowsec or something. Charisma points could be gained by trading or joining a player corp. etc...
This way we aren't giving things out for free, new players get attributes without having to train for them, noobs get involved and actually learn the game while "training learning skills", they get out of highsec and experience a little of the variety the game has to offer before becoming mindless slaves to the mining/mission grind, and vets would be mildly inconvenienced but would most likely be able to accomplish all the tasks very quickly and painlessly. Make sure everything can be done from 0.0 too so people aren't forced to make a trip to empire if they don't want to. I would expect the total time of these attribute gathering missions to take maybe a few days to a week for a brand new player.
Unfortunately, this would be very annoying for alts an I haven't yet thought of a good way around that. Maybe someone else has an idea.
Now that is a great idea.
The idiots that do not do the tutorials suffer the consequences until they go back and do them. The new players that get into corps and do them will gain the attribute boni faster then noobs that tend to solo to begin with. Everyone has consequences for their actions and everyone ends having the ability to gain all the attribute boni at differing intervals without a forced skill training down time.
I especially like the idea of increased player based interaction missions to attain the higher attribute boni
EDIT 2: To the alt coment. I would say it would work as intended. Alts are a bane to the game and should be forced to interact as much as possible if they are going to be tolerated.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Jas Dor
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:37:00 -
[399]
Hum wouldn't the best idea be:
1. Keep learning skills (if you turn them into real attributes they can be remapped which would be bad).
2. Give all characters maxed learning skills.
3. Refund all skill points put into learning skills (to the level trained before the change of course).
4. Tell everyone that they're SOL on the isk that they spent on the skills (or else refund the current NPC value, either way.)
|
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:42:00 -
[400]
Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 23:43:25 Thank you Slade.
After further thinking I agree that alts could just deal with it. Most of the time alts aren't fully learned anyway (unless they are a pretty serious alt) so taking a bit of time and only doing some of the tasks wouldn't be a big issue.
This system would also retain a bit of the decision making of the learning skills as I just demonstrated. No one would be forced to do everything although I imagine those last +1s would become much more attractive than they are now at 12 days training each.
Edit: apparently the word modi****is censored
|
|
John Ellsworth
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:51:00 -
[401]
Edited by: John Ellsworth on 02/07/2010 23:55:35
Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: Mathias Black
So the reason you want new players to have to suffer through some tedious pointless crap, is that you are paranoid that if they change it, some random other player out there might finally get to go through with their sinister plan to create an alt slightly faster than normal, and somehow this will just ruin your life? It certainly sounds like you're misanthropic. Seriously, who gives a rats ass if some random guy can make the market alt he wants in 4 weeks instead of 5? How is this going to affect you in any way? Especially when you could just copy whatever amazing crap he manages to do with a 4 week instead of 5 week alt yourself?
No the reason I am against it is because I haven't seen a good system to remove them. Magically maxing out everyone's training speed isn't it. I would like +5's in all my velators' holds along with that unit of trit from now on please.
Again. just because you don't see how it could potentially be abused doesn't mean it couldn't be.
My life will not be ruined no matter what happens with learning skills. My day wouldn't even be ruined if they were deleted and I didn't get a thing back for them. Apparently training skills slightly slower than "normal" is a game ruining experience for "everyone" though so maybe I'm not the one who has his priorities messed up here.
CCP has said repeatedly that learning skills were a big mistake. CCP and MOST people who play EVE want more new people to join assuring a long EVE future ahead. Removinf learning skills from the game will probably help the new player experience quite a bit. The various ways discussing reimbursing players who already have trained the learning skills (like me) are well thought out, reasonable and fair.
There is nothing L33T about having high learning skills. lol
The fact that you want to argue about keeping learning skills (lol) speaks to issues that you have that are probably not EVE-related.
so they said it at a fan fair? humm funny none of them will post it to an official forum or developer blog.. possible reason for saying this at a fan fair? Example when confronted with a pack of hungry dogs,, Giving them what they want "raw meat" would be the sane thing to do if you like life..As for your last comment, Quit trolling please I'm not for or against learning skills but the fact remains alot of people "most all players" have invested time into them and at this late date to change that system would be like a slap in the face for all of them... also not agreeing with the thought that learning skills suck , they are a part of Eve and I consider the entire system to be flawless to put it bluntly no need to adjust perfection.
|
Dek Kato
Amarr
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 00:29:00 -
[402]
Edited by: Dek Kato on 03/07/2010 00:33:42
Originally by: Obyrith Edited by: Obyrith on 02/07/2010 22:37:14
Originally by: Dek Kato
Stuff
Maybe it was complicated but the problems were solved during the SP-re-embursement-tool-coding stage.
Well this is just what I mean. That coding happened over literally like, 3 days. I don't see them fixing a major database issue with this idea in the span of those 3 days when they were just trying to do a simple SP credit, including bug testing.
Not ruling it out, but ultimately if I could I'd be investing in tin foil at this time as I feel its demand is on the rise.
-
As to those whining about alts, get over it and stop whining that CCP has figured out a way to make more money with a smaller subscriber base. Also, null and low would be even emptier than they are now if people didn't have money making alts working for them. Prices would be higher as we'd have fewer miner/missioning alts going, and the economy would just overall slump. CCP has to take alts into account with this.
That said, I wouldn't be opposed to doing a short tutorial to get an alt going. But I feel the tutorials are a dumb way to give out the increased attributes, as are missions. Either keep the LS as are, or just drop the idea and give us increased attributes so we don't have to bother with them. No senseless grinding in my EVE please.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Thread locked due to troll convention.
|
Erdiere
Minmatar Erasers inc. Controlled Chaos
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 00:45:00 -
[403]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...... Thus, there is ample room for the statement that "elite" learnign skills will benefit them more, since most of them already have the prerequisites to train them off the bat when they come out, while, say a new player, just gets more learning skills the they have to learn to be long term competitive.
And you see, this is the real point why it's the last thing to do. We dont WANT more "mandatory" skills which give you no direct benefit. If anything, we'd like to exterminate the damn things. ......
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=298143&page=3#81
That's Oveur saying they aren't hot for the learning skills, and not at a gun point on fanfest.
|
Lefty Twotimes
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 02:25:00 -
[404]
Nice. A quote of CCP saying they want to exterminate learning skills. You can't get more blunt then that.
|
Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:26:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Felix Esperium Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 23:43:25 Thank you Slade.
After further thinking I agree that alts could just deal with it. Most of the time alts aren't fully learned anyway (unless they are a pretty serious alt) so taking a bit of time and only doing some of the tasks wouldn't be a big issue.
This system would also retain a bit of the decision making of the learning skills as I just demonstrated. No one would be forced to do everything although I imagine those last +1s would become much more attractive than they are now at 12 days training each.
Edit: apparently the word modi****is censored
I will move it to the second post if you would like. Otherwise I recommend, that we flesh out the ideas a bit and then make a proposal in the Features and Ideas section. I really think this proposal has great potential.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Mathias Black
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 05:52:00 -
[406]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
How many times do I need to say that I am not necessarily against removing the skills and that I am against free handouts? Funny, I don't feel defeated. All I see is people whining. "Hey these skills are really annoying and should be taken out of the game so people don't have to train them. Oh wait, their effects are good though so just give us those for free." Sorry, that's not how it works. If you want cool free stuff for doing nothing (other than useless ships) go play wow.
There needs to be something like Godwin's Law, maybe MMOdwin's law, where the argument "Everyone who disagrees with me should go play WoW!" means you automatically lose at the internet and life.
|
Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 06:25:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Mathias Black
"Everyone who disagrees with me should go play WoW!"
All I'm saying is that if you like free stuff this much (you obviously do), wow is where you want to be. Or craigslist.
Slade, I am not down for putting a ton of :effort: into the details of that idea but if you want to run with it please feel free.
|
Jasdemi
Caldari Caldari Manufacturing
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 08:40:00 -
[408]
o/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:06:00 -
[409]
I don't have any issues with learning skills, not do I have any issues with them being removed. Que sara sara.
All my chars have 5/5 except 3 which have presence at 4. I therefore think the op idea suits me best if they are removed.
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills) 2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect) 3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
|
Drenan
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:10:00 -
[410]
1. Remove learning skills
2. Remove existing learning-skill points from player attributes.
3. Refund max learning-skill points to remap pool for all players. (one-off reset of the remap mechanism required)
4. Refund existing learning-skill sp via the new mechanism.
5. Refund existing learning skill book isk.
Sorted?
|
|
Mahijawanna
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:28:00 -
[411]
Learning skills make sense.
*View details in the other posts of people saying the same thing back and forth.*
So when CCP says they're going, we will have to deal with it. For now and the near future learning skills are here to stay.
Patience is a lesson well learned...in training learning skills.
|
lodik
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 10:22:00 -
[412]
Reading all of this bickering is hilarious really I took one read over of the Op and figured out exactly whats going on. So those who want to know the answer its here:
CCP have always stated how they are trying to deal with learning skills-
The OP is actually part of ccp but just made this thread with facts so they could see our reaction without it being an actual CCP blue box post\
You think they really wrote the code for how easily it was to allocate those sp points? no they are obviously going to use it. They could of made it so whatever you were training to add xxx points but they didn't they wrote a code for it.
Mark my words this is exactly what is happening. nuff said /thread
|
Orimei
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 10:30:00 -
[413]
I agree that patience is a virtue.
However, I'll throw a wild guess out here and say that most people aren't playing internet spaceships for their personal betterment but to have fun.
The slippery slope arguments aren't valid, either. Noone is asking to start with max skills or something like that. The problem with learning skills is that they aren't fun or exciting. Take engineering for example: while considered a vital skill to have at level 5 (and I guess most players indeed have it at level five) here the progression is indeed exciting: with each level you can squeeze more stuff on your ship which is something to look forward to and all that.
So, I think either the learning skills need to be removed in the way the op suggested or they need to somehow be changed to not only affect the 'abstract' concept of lower training times but also directly effect ship performance in some way to gain this looking forward to the next level feeling.
So, flame me as an instant-gratification dude or whatever but it is my opinion that the (perceived?) problems with learning skills stem largely from the fact that they don't offer instant gratification in the way another level of electronics has.
-- English isn't my first language and I have the feeling my writing sounds strange, please ignore this.
|
ObviousTroll Alt
Gallente Hulkageddon Orphanage
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 10:46:00 -
[414]
In the beginning was the Lord, and the Lord was GOD and the Lord was with God, and he decreed that learning was a good thing by saying "Study to show your self worthy of the Lord thy God".
Long live Learning Skills! And may the whiney little ***s that want them removed get hit by Busses.
|
Orimei
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 10:48:00 -
[415]
Originally by: ObviousTroll Alt
Long live Learning Skills! And may the whiney little ***s that want them removed get hit by Busses.
Yo dawg, I heard you like learning, so we put some learning in your learning, so you can learn while you learn.
|
ObviousTroll Alt
Gallente Hulkageddon Orphanage
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 10:50:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Orimei
Originally by: ObviousTroll Alt
Long live Learning Skills! And may the whiney little ***s that want them removed get hit by Busses.
Yo dawg, I heard you like learning, so we put some learning in your learning, so you can learn while you learn.
WIN \o/
|
La Faraona
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 12:44:00 -
[417]
|
Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 14:43:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
Originally by: WittyName Here
How is that an argument against removing learning skills? All the arguments I've seen from you in the last few pages are circular and repetitive - and they have been convincingly defeated. Your lack of anything constructive in this post is a testament to how you have been soundly and logically defeated.
How many times do I need to say that I am not necessarily against removing the skills and that I am against free handouts? Funny, I don't feel defeated. All I see is people whining. "Hey these skills are really annoying and should be taken out of the game so people don't have to train them. Oh wait, their effects are good though so just give us those for free." Sorry, that's not how it works. If you want cool free stuff for doing nothing (other than useless ships) go play wow.
I don't see anyone whining. People are agreeing that learning skills were and are a mistake to implement in the game and discussing the best way to remove them. You on the otherhand insist on calling people names with whom you disagree. And then you present yourself as the hardeneded vet (lol) telling people to go back to WOW.
Really, it seems you have no argument at all - or maybe you are unaware on how to articulate one correctly.
Your call.
|
Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 14:53:00 -
[419]
Quote: so they said it at a fan fair? humm funny none of them will post it to an official forum or developer blog.. possible reason for saying this at a fan fair? Example when confronted with a pack of hungry dogs,, Giving them what they want "raw meat" would be the sane thing to do if you like life..As for your last comment, Quit trolling please I'm not for or against learning skills but the fact remains alot of people "most all players" have invested time into them and at this late date to change that system would be like a slap in the face for all of them... also not agreeing with the thought that learning skills suck , they are a part of Eve and I consider the entire system to be flawless to put it bluntly no need to adjust perfection.
I have invested alot of time in them and still want to see them gone. Know why?
Because having them in is bad for the new player experience and I want this game to grow. It's not about what's best for me, its about what's best for the game.
They will need to reimburse the skillpoints somehow to make it 'fair' to the vets (like me) but thats not my main impetuous for wanting them gone. It's so we get more people playing this fantastic game.
Learning skills add nothing to game play and their remoaval improves the new player experience and we have more new players then we should ALL be on board with getting rid of them.
Also, It's Fan Fest and furthermore the link was already posted.
|
Hohenheim OfLight
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2010.07.03 17:00:00 -
[420]
not going to happen would be nice, I been playing since 2005 and they not changed it yet. ----------------------------------------------
Is mining for a hel mad? or just ambitious?
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 [14] 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 30 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |