Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 [17] 18 19 20 .. 20 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
yani dumyat
Minmatar Pixie Cats
|
Posted - 2010.02.08 23:51:00 -
[481]
Hi, taking a step back from the current dramiel nerf disease that's sweeping the forums I found myself asking this question:
The vagabond has a similar ability to disengage at will yet no one screams nerf, what is it about the dramiel that makes it different from the vaga? Specifically what cruisers can the vaga not engage and why do the frigate equivalents suck so much?
Sig_______
"Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth." |
Lugalzagezi666
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 00:06:00 -
[482]
Originally by: yani dumyat ...
It doesnt have similar ability to disengage, once its in scram range, its just ganky cruiser, nothing more. Dram can leave scram range of most ships in seconds.
|
Hannibal Ord
Minmatar Fuzzpuss Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 00:12:00 -
[483]
Originally by: yani dumyat Hi, taking a step back from the current dramiel nerf disease that's sweeping the forums I found myself asking this question:
The vagabond has a similar ability to disengage at will yet no one screams nerf, what is it about the dramiel that makes it different from the vaga? Specifically what cruisers can the vaga not engage and why do the frigate equivalents suck so much?
Any ship that has the ability to stop it being able to use it's advantage, speed and engagement range. So a Vaga will have difficulty engaging targets like a curse or something packing a heavy neut if they get too close, because they will be able to cap out the Vaga at the range the Vaga wishes to fight at.
Any ship that can basically shrug off the dps that the vaga puts down.
Frigate versions are basically the Sentinel and that's it. There is no high tanking frigate that can match the dps the Dramiel or any other single frigate produces, because frigates don't have enough slots, fittings etc to fit a comparable tank to say, a Sac, at the frigate level. All frigates if you just shoot at each other can break each others tanks. It is just a matter of who has the highest dps and who can speed tank the best.
|
Hannibal Ord
Minmatar Fuzzpuss Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 00:21:00 -
[484]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: yani dumyat ...
It doesnt have similar ability to disengage, once its in scram range, its just ganky cruiser, nothing more. Dram can leave scram range of most ships in seconds.
That is because of the mechanics of % increases in speed due to AB. And also the fact we have this bizarre situation where we have ships that can shoot up to like 60km or more at the cruiser level, but we MUST operate between 0 - 30 km to hold other ships down, at any level, and the MWD shutdown window is between 0 - 12km. Basically forcing us to fight at super close range against ships that have high speed advantages.
|
Onin Ra
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 02:41:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Hannibal Ord
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: yani dumyat ...
It doesnt have similar ability to disengage, once its in scram range, its just ganky cruiser, nothing more. Dram can leave scram range of most ships in seconds.
That is because of the mechanics of % increases in speed due to AB. And also the fact we have this bizarre situation where we have ships that can shoot up to like 60km or more at the cruiser level, but we MUST operate between 0 - 30 km to hold other ships down, at any level, and the MWD shutdown window is between 0 - 12km. Basically forcing us to fight at super close range against ships that have high speed advantages.
The real bizarre situation is that we actually have cruisers, that can shoot up to roughly 30km with supposedly CLOSE RANGE GUNS and CLOSE RANGE AMMO, but thats another topic. --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
|
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 02:54:00 -
[486]
Are pirate ships supposed to be the most common PVP ships? Over T2 and T1? If not, don't make their performance over price (especially in the area of survivability and multi-role use) so good that they eclipse the lower classes of ships.
if pirate ships are slightly better than T2. most still use T2, some use pirate. pirate wins more but still dies enough that T2 players may not necessarily regard T2 a waste of time.
if pirate ships are much better than T2. T2 is squeezed out. people either use T1 if they are absolute new players and can't use anything else. Or for level 1 missions. then they train for dramiel and bypass T2. bye bye ares, crusader, taranis, claw, malediction, jaguar, ishkur, harpy etc etc.
the extent to which pirate ships should be over T2 is the issue. not whether they should indeed be better. they should. but not to the level they completely squeeze out T2.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 03:26:00 -
[487]
Originally by: Darthewok
Are pirate ships supposed to be the most common PVP ships? Over T2 and T1? If not, don't make their performance over price (especially in the area of survivability and multi-role use) so good that they eclipse the lower classes of ships.
It is not a problem if the "eclipse" the lower classes of ships. IMO you should get over it that your T2 ship isn't as good. Pirate ships simply are not worth buying and using if they don't get a performance commensurate with their (very high) cost.
Quote:
if pirate ships are much better than T2. T2 is squeezed out. pirate frigs have run T2 out of a role. people either use T1 if they are absolute new players and can't use anything else. Or for level 1 missions. then for PVP they train for dramiel and bypass T2. no need for interceptor or AF skillbook. waste of time. bye bye ares, crusader, taranis, claw, malediction, jaguar, ishkur, harpy etc etc. 49 ships rendered junk. all that effort making those ships useless.
Except that it doesn't really follow. People will still use T2 because they are cheap. Not everyone can afford 70-120M ISK for a Dramiel - especially once the inevitable nerf rolls in. You seem to be going off on this ridiculous campaign to nerf not only the Dramiel but all pirate frigates - for what?
The best answer that I can come up with is that you are comfortable with what was the status quo - T2 > Faction > T1 > Pirate and want it changed only slightly: Pirate >= T2 >(=?) Faction > T1. The problem here is that CCP says ISK and rarity should play a part in performance.
Let me make sure you understand that. CCP said, in their dev blog, that money talks and bull**** walks. Pirate is vastly more expensive than T2, and thus should have a very noticeable performance improvement vs T2 ships in the same role or they simply are not worth the risk.
And in the end, your ridiculous campaign has held up the Dramiel as the poster boy for why all pirate faction ships should be nerfed to at best extremely minorly better than T2. I'm sorry but the Crusader and Jag aren't the best frigates in the game anymore - and hopefully they won't be after the Dramiel receives its angry dev surprise butt sex.
Let's be clear here: There is exactly one overpowered ship - and it's not terribly overpowered. A small tweak here or there would fix it fine. IMO, the real problem here is that the Dramiel is too good and the other pirate frigates are too bad - to the point of generically being worse at their chosen role than an equivalent T2 ship.
And DP: If the role is narrow enough that it can be done 90% as well by another T2 frig that has much broader scope then its role is too narrow. I realize the Sentinel and Cruor have different roles - but the Sentinel is just outright better in so many ways.
Quote:
the extent to which pirate ships should be better over T2 is the issue. not whether they should indeed be better. they should. but not to the level they completely squeeze out T2.
Yes, and you've never ever answered that question without making comments like T2 only wins against T1 70% of the time (lol?). You claim that pirate should win "more" vs T2 yet you don't specify how much more. 51%/49%? 60%/40%? 70%/30%? 90%/10%? 99.999%/.001%? What does T2 vs T1 actually get? IME it's about 90%/10% and the 10% is overwhelmingly because the T2 ship ****ed up. Really even 90/10 might be low.
Remember: T2 ships have already usurped every role but "cheap" from T1, and yet you don't seem to complain about that.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 03:34:00 -
[488]
you are incorrect that i don't want pirate frigs to be a bit better. i don't mind the worm and the junk ones to be improved slightly. just only cautioning that while they are improved they don't get improved so much T2 goes obsolete.
i want dramiel to be nerfed slightlyto still be better than T2 but not this much. it is a matter of extent pirate are better over T2, no problem with them being better over T2. the problem with the concept of T2 being budget ships is many can afford pirate. the bar is too low. also, if people may simply just refrain from PVP and reduce the amount of PVP if they regard it a waste of time to fly T2 and pirate frigs are too expensive for their tastes.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 03:38:00 -
[489]
So give me a SOLID NUMBER for how often a pirate frigate that costs 5x as much as a T2 frigate should win? You say "slightly" but "slightly" implies you get 1% more performance... which is utterly ******ed.
You say the Worm can be boosted "slightly" yet I'd rate it as quite significantly worse than the Ishkur and Sentinel. Hell it isn't much better than a Hawk. What is your justification for a "slight" boost?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 03:51:00 -
[490]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You say the Worm can be boosted "slightly" yet I'd rate it as quite significantly worse than the Ishkur and Sentinel. Hell it isn't much better than a Hawk. What is your justification for a "slight" boost?
well i agreed pirate should be better than t2. if pirate is worse than t2 sure boost it more than slightly if that is what it takes to reach performance above t2.
if you want a solid number, it will take a lot of consideration, as the strength of a frig over another depends on many factors a) how often it beats others 1v1, b) how well it performs in gangs, c) survivability, d) superiority in role vs subsitutes, e) absolute price, f) relative price to other classes, etc. etc.
|
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 04:16:00 -
[491]
If you don't even have a solid stance on that, how can you even begin to claim that the Dramiel is "vastly overpowered"?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 04:18:00 -
[492]
Edited by: Darthewok on 09/02/2010 04:21:16 i may not have the exact number but i gave the factors. a) how often it beats others 1v1, b) how well it performs in gangs, c) survivability, d) superiority in role vs subsitutes
tick them all off for Dramiel. the other pirate frigs are good in some but not all.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 04:28:00 -
[493]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/02/2010 04:28:47
Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 09/02/2010 04:21:16 i may not have the exact number but i gave the factors. a) how often it beats others 1v1, b) how well it performs in gangs, c) survivability, d) superiority in role vs subsitutes
tick them all off for Dramiel. the other pirate frigs are good in some but not all.
I'm asking you what you think composes "too good". You are consistently unable to answer this outside of pointing at the Dramiel and saying "NERF ALL PIRATE SHIPS BECAUSE THEY MIGHT 'OBSOLETE' T2!"
You're the one that keeps bringing up "A pirate ship should win slightly more"... so I demand numbers. Generically speaking (perhaps taking an "average" in some way), do you want 51%/49% vs T2? Is that too low or too high? It is slightly better afterall.
-Liang
Ed: Until you can clarify to yourself what you think is too good, how can you hope to make a case to the public at large? -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 04:32:00 -
[494]
are you saying you have exact numbers that the worm should be boosted? and to what extent? how can you support that then? so you cannot make any arguments unless you have the exact numbers?
and you are saying i am saying all pirate ships should be nerfed? i clearly did not.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 04:42:00 -
[495]
Originally by: Darthewok are you saying you have exact numbers that the worm should be boosted?
Yeah, take a look at its "vital statistics". Compare to Ishkur. Laugh.
Quote: and to what extent?
Quite significantly. It's like some horrible abomination between the Hawk and Ishkur, and comes out only fractionally better than the Hawk. Maybe.
Quote: how can you support that then?
I can support it in several ways: - Pirate ships should be flat superior in at least one (fairly wide) role. Any expensive ship in an overly narrow role will almost always be proxied by a ship that has a wider role and covers your role 80% as well. - The Worm has worse stats than most AFs and AFs are widely (and correctly) regarded as a steaming pile of ****. - When would you use a Worm over some T2 ship? Yeah, that's what I thought.
Quote: so you cannot make any arguments unless you have the exact numbers?
Your argument relates specifically to "how often pirate should win vs T2" yet you cannot define your opinion for us. You say "Pirate should win slightly more often" but "slightly" can easily be interpreted anywhere from 51/49 to 55/45 - and both of those numbers are far too small for someone to be spending the Bling on a pirate faction ship.
Quote:
and you are saying i am saying all pirate ships should be nerfed? i clearly did not.
I have seen countless posts from you arguing about how pirate ships obsolete T2. I haven't seen you make a post specifically targeting the Dramiel in quite some time. So yes - I would say that you are (even if unwittingly) attempting to create an argument that Pirate ships (as a whole) are "too good".
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:01:00 -
[496]
Edited by: Darthewok on 09/02/2010 05:06:07 the criteria i would use for determining how good pirate should be vs t2 i have mentioned. a) how often it beats others 1v1, b) how well it performs in gangs, c) survivability, d) superiority in role vs subsitutes, e) absolute price, f) relative price to other classes, etc. etc.
i after consideration realize the 1v1 victory ratio is not sufficient. even if something almost always wins vs others, it may be compensated by poor performance in gangs, low survivability, lack of versatility in role. this is exactly why Daredevil and Cruor though good in a) are not OP. daredevil and cruor are good in a) but not in all a)-d) dramiel is good in all a)-d) that is the crucial difference why dramiel is OP and the others are not.
i cannot give an overall weighted number because b) and d) are not numerical but experiential.
i think dramiel should be nerfed slightly. the other pirate frigs are either fine or underpowered.
i think pirate frigs should be good but there is no way to numerically quantify the extent. however if you see any pirate frig's proportion starting to push out more and more T2 for the serious PVPer segment, i would think that would be the signal for a nerf. because people mentally and experientially balance all the factors even though it is hard to exactly quantify.
if nobody flies the worm, sure boost the thing. some fly daredevil and cruor, but people are not replacing t2 with it regularly, sure fine. if you see pilots who previously flew other t2 giving up t2 in droves going for dramiel, its pretty clear its OP.
|
Ophelia Ursus
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:37:00 -
[497]
Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 09/02/2010 05:38:55
Originally by: Liang Nuren The best answer that I can come up with is that you are comfortable with what was the status quo - T2 > Faction > T1 > Pirate and want it changed only slightly: Pirate >= T2 >(=?) Faction > T1. The problem here is that CCP says ISK and rarity should play a part in performance.
Let me make sure you understand that. CCP said, in their dev blog, that money talks and bull**** walks. Pirate is vastly more expensive than T2, and thus should have a very noticeable performance improvement vs T2 ships in the same role or they simply are not worth the risk.
In what universe or language is 'very noticeable performance improvement' synonymous with 'on a par with or slightly above'?
Since all these terms are rather qualitative, trying to throw numbers like 'x should beat y in 90% of engagements' is daft and uninteresting. That said, if you want examples of pirate ships that both justify their pricetag and are well-balanced, look at the Daredevil, Gila, and Cynabal.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:41:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
In what universe or language is 'very noticeable performance improvement' synonymous with 'on a par with or slightly above'?
The language where they said that ISK and rarity justifies superior performance.
Quote: Since all these terms are rather qualitative, trying to throw numbers like 'x should beat y in 90% of engagements' is daft and uninteresting. That said,if you want examples of pirate ships that both justify their pricetag and are well-balanced, look at the Daredevil, Gila, and Cynabal.
Notably, those are the ships that are very noticeably better than T2 ships in the role they fulfill. Thank you for proving my point.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:44:00 -
[499]
Originally by: Darthewok
i cannot give an overall weighted number because b) and d) are not numerical but experiential.
It most definitely is not an exponential function.
Quote: i think pirate frigs should be good but there is no way to numerically quantify the extent.
Quote:
however if you see any pirate frig's proportion starting to push out T2 to such a considerable extent for the serious PVPer segment, i would think that would be the signal for a nerf. because people mentally and experientially balance all the factors even though it is hard to exactly quantify.
If you see any particular anything starting to push out everything else to such a considerable extent its a signal for a nerf. Pirate/T2 has jack to do with anything there.
Quote:
PS: liang i am not on a campaign to nerf all pirate ships. you can judge how able i am to accept improvements in pirate frigs from my approval of daredevil and cruor boost and support of boost of worm. sorry if i was not clear. we are probably actually right in agreement. perhaps my explanations were not clear so my bad.
Then can you please stop using "T2" and "Pirate" everywhere when you mean "Jaguar" and "Dramiel"?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:44:00 -
[500]
i am sorry for bringing 1v1 victory numbers in. it confuses given that 1v1 victory is only 1 factor of overall frig performance. and yes, many factors are qualitative. CCP has a tough job balancing, heh.
probably usage patterns is a better signaller of frig competitiveness vs each other. this is because people unconsciously take into account all factors with experience and vote which ships are competitive and which are not. high adoption of a new ship and abandonment of alternatives signals OPness. low usage of a ship vs others in its class signals underpoweredness. look at killboards and usage patterns of ships. not perfect, but probably a significant indicator.
|
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:49:00 -
[501]
Originally by: Darthewok i am sorry for bringing 1v1 victory numbers in. it confuses given that 1v1 victory is only 1 factor of overall frig performance. and yes, many factors are qualitative. CCP has a tough job balancing, heh.
probably usage patterns is a better signaller of frig competitiveness vs each other. this is because people unconsciously take into account all factors with experience and vote which ships are competitive and which are not. high adoption of a new ship and abandonment of alternatives signals OPness. low usage of a ship vs others in its class signals underpoweredness. look at killboards and usage patterns of ships. not perfect, but probably a significant indicator.
Holy ****, a competent and reasonable post from you. Note that by this standard Cynabals are also overpowered. ;-)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol HellFleet
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:50:00 -
[502]
Isn't this thread over yet?
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:52:00 -
[503]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Isn't this thread over yet?
Hey Siig are you coming to the get together on Thursday?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Celeste Kitawa
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:56:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Isn't this thread over yet?
Hey Siig are you coming to the get together on Thursday?
-Liang
Crap it's on Thursday? I haven't even checked the thread.
|
Ophelia Ursus
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 05:57:00 -
[505]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
In what universe or language is 'very noticeable performance improvement' synonymous with 'on a par with or slightly above'?
The language where they said that ISK and rarity justifies superior performance.
Yeah.. it's almost as though this whole argument is about what constitutes a reasonable degree of superiority. There should be an advantage, but get this... it's supposed to be a slight advantage. The ability to disengage at >1 km/s while scrammed and webbed isn't a slight advantage by any stretch of the imagination.
Quote:
Quote: Since all these terms are rather qualitative, trying to throw numbers like 'x should beat y in 90% of engagements' is daft and uninteresting. That said,if you want examples of pirate ships that both justify their pricetag and are well-balanced, look at the Daredevil, Gila, and Cynabal.
Notably, those are the ships that are very noticeably better than T2 ships in the role they fulfill. Thank you for proving my point.
See above. Is a Cynabal better than a vaga? Sure, if they were fighting 1v1, the Cynabal should win every time. On the other hand, anything that counters a vaga will counter a Cynabal equally well; the Daredevil has omgwtfbbq DPS and web but has to commit to its fights and is *very* susceptible to baiting. There's a difference of degree between those ships and the Dram.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 06:05:00 -
[506]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Yeah.. it's almost as though this whole argument is about what constitutes a reasonable degree of superiority. There should be an advantage, but get this... it's supposed to be a slight advantage. The ability to disengage at >1 km/s while scrammed and webbed isn't a slight advantage by any stretch of the imagination.
Heh, I never said that it was. I have fully admitted since this thread's inception that the Dramiel is overpowered. I just have the opinion that pirate ships should be rather significantly better than T2 ships otherwise they simply are not worthwhile. Consider: one could have made the argument that pre-boost pirate frigs were balanced because they were about as good as the Hawk.
I also feel that the entire discussion is premature considering that the devs acknowledge that AFs need a boost. Would the Dramiel be overpowered if they boosted AFs? Maybe, it would depend by how much, right? Well, one thing we know is that they WILL boost AFs.
Quote:
See above. Is a Cynabal better than a vaga? Sure, if they were fighting 1v1, the Cynabal should win every time. On the other hand, anything that counters a vaga will counter a Cynabal equally well; the Daredevil has omgwtfbbq DPS and web but has to commit to its fights and is *very* susceptible to baiting. There's a difference of degree between those ships and the Dram.
You are trying to convince me that the Dramiel is overpowered - fine I agree that it is. However, I think it's not as overpowered as its being made out to be and there definitely exist solo (cheap!) counters for it. However, I refuse to allow pirate ships as a whole to be even "meh" next to T2, because they will never be flown. There must be a clear advantage to flying them - though they should not constitute "I win" or "Invulnerability".
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 08:51:00 -
[507]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You are trying to convince me that the Dramiel is overpowered - fine I agree that it is. However, I think it's not as overpowered as its being made out to be and there definitely exist solo (cheap!) counters for it. However, I refuse to allow pirate ships as a whole to be even "meh" next to T2, because they will never be flown. There must be a clear advantage to flying them - though they should not constitute "I win" or "Invulnerability".
-Liang
I keep hearing that there are cheap counters to high dps/speed/tank but no one has been able to forward one. Destroyers/Interdictors are not it, no chance in hell against a 2k/s afterburner frigate. Assault Caracal is not it, not enough damage do kill before pilot disengages or kills .. light missiles take a significant reduction at the speeds Dramiels travel at. There are counters, but they are not cheap and will more often than not be highly specialized, just as they were against the nano's.
It is never to premature to point out imbalances. I would rather Devs include more in their deliberations when tweaking AFs than less. Pirate hulls should be better than T2 that much we can agree on, and they all are except for the Worm, question how much is to too much? They all have a few (1-2) supercharged attributes that give them a defined role/niche while remaining stats are 'only' equal to T2 .. Dramiel has all its attributes supercharged taking it so far ahead that its not even funny. It is the same consensus that is being reached in the Worm thread, a slow'ish tanky drone boat -> few supercharged attributes, rest on par with T2.
The whole price argument is *******s. It is a perfect example of CCPs crappy language skills, they should be better because they are harder to acquire (LP wise), ISK is cheap as hell these days. People are dumping billions of ISK into T1 BS to get an edge - an edge, not an entire bloody sawmill!. If price was the main factor we would see it elsewhere yet do not. Think of the "boost" they gave motherships, they got OMFG-DAMAGE (destructible) and StopTicklingMe tanks at the expense of practically all their 'soft utility' (Triage, Clonebay) .. a few focused supercharged attributes to compensate for cost. Second proof is T3 cruisers, expensive as hell but have a few supercharged attributes making the ISK cost a non-issue for those so inclined.
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 09:24:00 -
[508]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/02/2010 09:25:09
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Pirate hulls should be better than T2 that much we can agree on, and they all are except for the Worm, question how much is to too much?
Can you please provide me when you would use a Succubus? Thanks. Also, when you would use a Cruor over a Sentinel or Hyena (or some other T2 ship, depending on what you want to do) would be really nice too. The Cruor has really awesome bonuses that simply aren't awesome on a frigate.
Quote: The whole price argument is *******s.
No, it really isn't.
Quote: ISK is cheap as hell these days.
Quote:
Second proof is T3 cruisers, expensive as hell but have a few supercharged attributes making the ISK cost a non-issue for those so inclined.
"A few".
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 09:42:00 -
[509]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/02/2010 09:45:39
Originally by: Liang Nuren It is not a problem if the "eclipse" the lower classes of ships. IMO you should get over it that your T2 ship isn't as good. Pirate ships simply are not worth buying and using if they don't get a performance commensurate with their (very high) cost.
Except it's not very high.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Except that it doesn't really follow. People will still use T2 because they are cheap. Not everyone can afford 70-120M ISK for a Dramiel - especially once the inevitable nerf rolls in. You seem to be going off on this ridiculous campaign to nerf not only the Dramiel but all pirate frigates - for what?
Except that this is not true at all, otherwise we wouln't see so much dramiels.
Originally by: Liang Nuren The best answer that I can come up with is that you are comfortable with what was the status quo - T2 > Faction > T1 > Pirate and want it changed only slightly: Pirate >= T2 >(=?) Faction > T1. The problem here is that CCP says ISK and rarity should play a part in performance.
Ok, but you still didn't answer - how to make pirate ships and t2 viable for one of three roles, while keeping them unique?
Originally by: Liang Nuren Let me make sure you understand that. CCP said, in their dev blog, that money talks and bull**** walks. Pirate is vastly more expensive than T2, and thus should have a very noticeable performance improvement vs T2 ships in the same role or they simply are not worth the risk.
I saw other word... "on par" or 'slightly better". Very noticeable performance improvement? Seriously, where did you read it? Frigs have higher price, yes, but this may be a tradeoff for equal performance and lower skills requirement.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Remember: T2 ships have already usurped every role but "cheap" from T1, and yet you don't seem to complain about that.
You know my point on that: i don't like it too. But we have to live with it, because existing concept seems to be irreversible.
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Since all these terms are rather qualitative, trying to throw numbers like 'x should beat y in 90% of engagements' is daft and uninteresting. That said, if you want examples of pirate ships that both justify their pricetag and are well-balanced, look at the Daredevil, Gila, and Cynabal.
Cynabal is bad example imo, it already almost replaced vaga.
|
M Blanc
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 09:42:00 -
[510]
Edited by: M Blanc on 09/02/2010 09:42:29 meh
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 [17] 18 19 20 .. 20 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |