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Jolla Skyia
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Posted - 2009.07.25 01:29:00 -
[1]
Here is the situation. You have item that sells at Jita for around 800k. Yet in my local trade hub, the "smart" traders have managed to get the prices up around 1,4mil and people still buy.
So we are talking almost 80 to 90% profits, if everyone plays ball and sticks with the .01 wars. Everyone gets some sales and we all make nice profits.. However, there is always 2 types of morons that enter the equation.
Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
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Mordou
Mordou Manufacturing and Trade
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Posted - 2009.07.25 01:33:00 -
[2]
Use him to drive all the prices down, then buy everything up, then profit.
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Agent Darko
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Posted - 2009.07.25 01:33:00 -
[3]
Meh...
There will always be those kinds of people.
Keep undercutting until his stock gets low enought, buy it all up at really low prices and restock. why _wouldn't_ you want to encourage that?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.07.25 01:37:00 -
[4]
Undercutting others by a huge percentage or amount until the others just give up and leave or buy you out is a perfectly legitimate tactic for the trader that doesn't have the time to play the 0.01 dance. From his viewpoint, a minimal margin on a large volume is better than a big margin on next to no volume at all. Other times, these people are not actually selling, they ARE BUYING. They want you to follow them down, so THEY can buy YOU out cheaply. And yet again another time, you're just facing somebody who just wants to get rid of his inventory, and considers the buy order price far too low.
Sounds to me like none of the above is stupid at all - if they WOULD be stupid you would have a very fast and very clear answer to this "problem".
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Xapharia
WOLIMAZO INC
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Posted - 2009.07.25 01:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akita T
Undercutting others by a huge percentage or amount until the others just give up and leave or buy you out is a perfectly legitimate tactic for the trader that doesn't have the time to play the 0.01 dance. From his viewpoint, a minimal margin on a large volume is better than a big margin on next to no volume at all. Other times, these people are not actually selling, they ARE BUYING. They want you to follow them down, so THEY can buy YOU out cheaply. And yet again another time, you're just facing somebody who just wants to get rid of his inventory, and considers the buy order price far too low.
Sounds to me like none of the above is stupid at all - if they WOULD be stupid you would have a very fast and very clear answer to this "problem".
Using some of these points myself at times. Might also be when I want an item but don't want to buy it off a sell order so I make a buy order that's more than 0.01 isk above the others. Usually when this is the case I only want a small amount of items that I will use myself and not sell, so letting my order of 4 get filled will get me out of the picture.
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2009.07.25 01:56:00 -
[6]
Basicly you don't get it and there's 5 threads like this on the front page probably.
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FuzzyBunnyKiller
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Posted - 2009.07.25 02:16:00 -
[7]
You do know that 90% of the #1 guys are mission runners and miners who just dump there loot and ore and dont want to babysit orders there not moron traders
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Yarinor
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Posted - 2009.07.25 03:30:00 -
[8]
I supply bombs to a popular "near 0.0" trade hub. Before i started supplying them they were around 2m each, I've been selling them at 1.2m each, you wanna know what happened to the traded volume? It's increase more than 10 fold. and i know I'm only getting 1/3 of the profits pr unit that i would get if they were sold at 2m, but I still sell 10 times more from that hub alone, than the entire region did before i started selling there.
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Sturmwolke
Genyosha Legion
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Posted - 2009.07.25 03:32:00 -
[9]
That sounds almost like the AN (Standard) crystal market
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Spacing Cowboy
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.07.25 11:30:00 -
[10]
I did something simular as soon i figured out how the eve market actually works ;) Realising then you don't HAVE to buy from station, but its very worthy to check the region, or even just the system prices.
Started buying "noob ammo" from a start post from the guys who make them, couple of hops away. Easy to find out, if your a pew-pew nub yourself, and need to arm up.
Started out with one specific type item, 4 days later controlling the entire range, having a hard time keeping up with restocking, as the guys produce about just as fast as i can sell it here.
Right now selling the shooters & ammo for +- 50% the system price, But that is still 45% more then the region price. Total moved items in the last days went up with nearly 25% , if it's cheap.. a nub buys it ;)
yes, i priced out the residential arms dealer out of the hub, as i do have the chance to change & update my prices ever hour or so.
IMHO , excelent way to make a crapload of ISK in your first week
Truth is, even with the current skill's i could stock even cheaper with producing it myself, but just can't be bothered to do so ;)
Killing the market for somebody else? Yes.. But profiting from it? owww yes...
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Titan Pilot
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.07.25 11:39:00 -
[11]
convo, beg, threaten, undock, pod, scoop, sell
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.25 11:49:00 -
[12]
This:
Shave his balls with a rusty razor Shave his balls with a rusty razor Shave his balls with a rusty razor Earl-eye in the mornin...
Thats what you do to the dumb traders..
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge Got Game? Peak a boo... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.07.25 12:01:00 -
[13]
Quote: So what do you do with dumb traders?
I let them buy and carry my future inventory for me.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Taua Roqa
Minmatar Planet Roqa
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Posted - 2009.07.25 12:02:00 -
[14]
this still leaves the unresolved issue of drunken sailors.
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Diamond Jewel
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Posted - 2009.07.25 15:35:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Have you ever heard of corp theft, pirating, empire wars, or PvP in general? All of these let you acquire items for free. Lets say I have a spy/corp theif in a corp and I empty out 10,000 mods worth 2.7 billion. I want the ISK now so I sell it at rock bottom prices and walk off with 1.5bil in a matter of a day. It's all 100% profit.
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
Do you realize that fat cats put up regional buy orders in all the empire regions? They buy items for 100isk and noobs sell them. So once a month they cruise around and pick up 1000s of items that they basically bought for free. On top of that, they get a kick out of knowing people like you get butt hurt over market crashing.
Originally by: Jolla Skyia So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders?
Whine on the forums and let everyone know that you know little about trade. Also, let others know that you are being griefed by a market crasher. Why don't you put a big target on your chest? Your making the problem worse by posting.
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Ancallan
Petals of Derketo
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Posted - 2009.07.25 15:58:00 -
[16]
Infiltrate his organisation. Beware of Stockholm Syndrome. __________
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.07.25 16:28:00 -
[17]
I do it all the time. Its a response to .01 is warfare. The more people who are doing .01 is warfare, the more likely that item is to get shock therapy. If I am interested in staying in that market segment I will try to kill off some of the competition. When I can neither buy, nor sell something, thats a problem for me when I am trying to trade. Also, the more people who are doing .01 isk wars, the easier that item is to manipulate, because I can force you to give me your stuff for free. Are you a stupid moron for doing this? I guess I don't have an answer for that.
Another reason I do it is because I don't like trading items at 4,563,276.83 or something like that. I like a nice simple round number, so I might round it up or down to the top 2, 3 or 4 digits. When you think about it, I could raise some things a 500 times with 4 digits before it might make any real difference in the price on some items.
I also deleted the decimel point once when selling stuff, and it left me traumatized, so I avoid them usually. I think I am less error prone when I use nicely rounded numbers.
Sometimes I get bored and make patterns in market graphs for fun. I have also tried to buy everything just to see if I can do it with some things. I don't make isk, but I have wrecked markets for months like that. I like to make nice smooth lines and then bounce them up and down, or sometimes chaos. It makes me happy.
In my mind, its also better for me to take a 5% profit with higher volume, than a 50% profit that I can take in theory but never sell anything. In some cases I will reduce the profit to negative and buy up stock too. I do it intentionally. This also has the benefit of causing people to freak out and dump stock, so I can buy it back. I am a firm believer in never buying into a market where I am above mineral cost for trade, I will do it for other reasons though.
I also buy sometimes for pvp ops where I need to get certain things I don't trade in, or have run out of a few things I need to do something. In those cases, its not about profit, its about getting the items I need in a couple of days at a decent price. So I might buy 30 of this or 50 of that in ways where I am certain to get a better price than the sell orders. I am perfectly willing to run the price all the way up to the sell orders. Some people are really dumb and don't understand that not everyone who puts up buy orders is a trader. A good trader always knows the break point on an item. I purposely go above that to avoid .01 isk competition.
You seem like a nice enough guy, I am sorry if this offends you. Well. Actually I am not sorry. But I will benefit if you stop trading, so I have a keen interest in wrecking your world I guess.
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.07.25 16:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Taua Roqa this still leaves the unresolved issue of drunken sailors.
We are NOT going to talk about that.
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Lord Zarcam
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.25 16:58:00 -
[19]
Have thought that maybe YOU fell into HIS trap and that you are the moron? Maybe this person manufactures his stuff and normally sells in Jita, but YOU have saved HIM a trip by buying out his product? Sounds like you are doing what he wanted all along.
And as far as #2, there are many reason for this, some have been discussed already. It's all PvP, just in a different form! You can partake, get run over or get out.
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do?
In Space, No One Can Hear You Scream! |
small chimp
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Posted - 2009.07.25 17:35:00 -
[20]
Edited by: small chimp on 25/07/2009 17:36:42 According to some md fanbois dumb traders are actually wise because they are cutting their own profits and spending millions of billions just to possibly make you cry and grief you!
Also its dumb to think about customer! cartels are most profitable!
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Ta'jek
Angels Of Death EVE Free Worlds Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.25 18:14:00 -
[21]
ahh the imaginary profit vs real profit topic back again..... I imagine the same sort of discussions are had whenever walmart moves into a new area. your choices are simple.. do as others have said,buy him out and relist it at a higher price or keep prices the same and wait for others to buy up his stock.
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Bomale
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Posted - 2009.07.25 18:58:00 -
[22]
Is every traders that now follow .01 iks rule are morons ?
Don't believe it. They trade differently and probably have another goal than some traders that follow .01 isk rule.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Nothing.
Keep you eyes on your isks.
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Mova B
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Posted - 2009.07.25 18:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Here is the situation. You have item that sells at Jita for around 800k. Yet in my local trade hub, the "smart" traders have managed to get the prices up around 1,4mil and people still buy.
So we are talking almost 80 to 90% profits, if everyone plays ball and sticks with the .01 wars. Everyone gets some sales and we all make nice profits.. However, there is always 2 types of morons that enter the equation.
Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
Perhaps the smart trader managed to get the item with 400k, and is using fast selling..?
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Lord Jita
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Posted - 2009.07.25 19:23:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lord Jita on 25/07/2009 19:24:10
Hello I am the number 2 moron. But not for the reasons you mention. I do it to pizz you off because I am not a trader, I am just trying to sell some crap I got from PVP as quickly as possible so I can go back to PVPing. but no, instead I get undercut 500 times a day so what better revenge than to destroy your margin? Good day.
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Lyris Nairn
Caldari Empyrean Holdings
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Posted - 2009.07.25 21:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Here is the situation. You have item that sells at Jita for around 800k. Yet in my local trade hub, the "smart" traders have managed to get the prices up around 1,4mil and people still buy.
So we are talking almost 80 to 90% profits, if everyone plays ball and sticks with the .01 wars. Everyone gets some sales and we all make nice profits.. However, there is always 2 types of morons that enter the equation.
Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
Hi. I run missions and sometimes PVP. I do not figure opportunity cost into the price I list a T2 item that I just looted from a wreck in lowsec, or to the Meta4 item I just looted from a mission rat. I view every ISK I make as 100% profit for me. I sell a hauler-full of loot every week or so. I price it to moveùI am not a trader, and I do not want to spend hours fighting price wars with people who have superior trade skills (in-game and out-of-game). I actually WANT you to buy out my lot of 10,000 items that're at 80% market value, and relist them at 99.9999% market value. That gives me a big wad of ISK instantly, and it's the same reason I buy implants with LP instead of ammo; it moves faster, and gets me back to shooting things quicker.
-- "Quite possibly the nicest person who'd ever want to kill you." |
Mova B
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Posted - 2009.07.25 21:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lyris Nairn
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Here is the situation. You have item that sells at Jita for around 800k. Yet in my local trade hub, the "smart" traders have managed to get the prices up around 1,4mil and people still buy.
So we are talking almost 80 to 90% profits, if everyone plays ball and sticks with the .01 wars. Everyone gets some sales and we all make nice profits.. However, there is always 2 types of morons that enter the equation.
Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
Hi. I run missions and sometimes PVP. I do not figure opportunity cost into the price I list a T2 item that I just looted from a wreck in lowsec, or to the Meta4 item I just looted from a mission rat. I view every ISK I make as 100% profit for me. I sell a hauler-full of loot every week or so. I price it to moveùI am not a trader, and I do not want to spend hours fighting price wars with people who have superior trade skills (in-game and out-of-game). I actually WANT you to buy out my lot of 10,000 items that're at 80% market value, and relist them at 99.9999% market value. That gives me a big wad of ISK instantly, and it's the same reason I buy implants with LP instead of ammo; it moves faster, and gets me back to shooting things quicker.
And this is the part where I come into picture, buying out loot around the galaxy, quick selling them at hubs, probably ****ing off quite lot 0.01 bidders
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2009.07.25 22:09:00 -
[27]
1. Hangar clean 2. List all those asorted things you don't want to watch at lowest sell order -1/3 of the margin. 3. xxxx 4. Tears of a seal, oh I mean profit.
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Jolla Skyia
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Posted - 2009.07.25 22:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lord Zarcam Have thought that maybe YOU fell into HIS trap and that you are the moron? Maybe this person manufactures his stuff and normally sells in Jita, but YOU have saved HIM a trip by buying out his product? Sounds like you are doing what he wanted all along.
And as far as #2, there are many reason for this, some have been discussed already. It's all PvP, just in a different form! You can partake, get run over or get out.
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do?
If I can buy stuff locally at the same prices as Jita which are 90% under current trade prices then I will gladly fall for that trap any day. There is "NO" issues with the the 1st example as those guys make me happy.
It's the other guy that lowers his price by 5% to 10% a pop that is the problem.
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Jolla Skyia
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Posted - 2009.07.25 22:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lord Jita Edited by: Lord Jita on 25/07/2009 19:24:10
Hello I am the number 2 moron. But not for the reasons you mention. I do it to pizz you off because I am not a trader, I am just trying to sell some crap I got from PVP as quickly as possible so I can go back to PVPing. but no, instead I get undercut 500 times a day so what better revenge than to destroy your margin? Good day.
Yet, you think that the .01er's aren't going to under cut your price by .01? You think just because you toss something on the market at 10% lower that no one will under cut you?
If you are putting it high enough above the buy margin, someone will under cut you, so you gain nothing. Your best solution to sell stuff like that is to sell it in a slow hub or take it to a low sec hub.
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Lord Jita
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Posted - 2009.07.26 00:03:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Lord Jita on 26/07/2009 00:03:04
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Originally by: Lord Jita Edited by: Lord Jita on 25/07/2009 19:24:10
Hello I am the number 2 moron. But not for the reasons you mention. I do it to pizz you off because I am not a trader, I am just trying to sell some crap I got from PVP as quickly as possible so I can go back to PVPing. but no, instead I get undercut 500 times a day so what better revenge than to destroy your margin? Good day.
Yet, you think that the .01er's aren't going to under cut your price by .01? You think just because you toss something on the market at 10% lower that no one will under cut you?
If you are putting it high enough above the buy margin, someone will under cut you, so you gain nothing. Your best solution to sell stuff like that is to sell it in a slow hub or take it to a low sec hub.
Well you are wrong because many don't. The ones that do? I will lower it a few more times to bring the entire price for the region down. Not too low, then I'll just leave it alone. I am out to destroy your margin at that point, i could care less about selling it. The result? Delicious tears in the form of threads like this one.
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2009.07.26 05:28:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Originally by: Lord Jita Edited by: Lord Jita on 25/07/2009 19:24:10
Hello I am the number 2 moron. But not for the reasons you mention. I do it to pizz you off because I am not a trader, I am just trying to sell some crap I got from PVP as quickly as possible so I can go back to PVPing. but no, instead I get undercut 500 times a day so what better revenge than to destroy your margin? Good day.
Yet, you think that the .01er's aren't going to under cut your price by .01? You think just because you toss something on the market at 10% lower that no one will under cut you?
If you are putting it high enough above the buy margin, someone will under cut you, so you gain nothing. Your best solution to sell stuff like that is to sell it in a slow hub or take it to a low sec hub.
no
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.07.26 05:53:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Hello I am the number 2 moron. But not for the reasons you mention. I do it to pizz you off because I am not a trader, I am just trying to sell some crap I got from PVP as quickly as possible so I can go back to PVPing. but no, instead I get undercut 500 times a day so what better revenge than to destroy your margin? Good day
Quote:
Hi. I run missions and sometimes PVP. I do not figure opportunity cost into the price I list a T2 item that I just looted from a wreck in lowsec, or to the Meta4 item I just looted from a mission rat
Do you get that loot in volume? If so please EvEmail me.
But I disagree with
Quote:
I view every ISK I make as 100% profit for me.
because you invest you only, irreplaceable, most precious resource for that: your time.
And time and loot value are factored in the statistical pre-defined gain per hour you make, so they are not free.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Jade Grimpkin
Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2009.07.26 10:52:00 -
[33]
Moron trader no.3 here, sometimes we drop prices for the lulz, trading aint all about the isk.
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Roguehalo
Caldari RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2009.07.26 10:56:00 -
[34]
Oh well..........I guess I better own up to being moron trader number 4
If your overall trading profit is even remotely dependant on 1 particular item you are doing something wrong
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.26 14:31:00 -
[35]
Ok this is the Moron.
Turnover anyone?
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge Got Game? Peak a boo... |
Zamaranth Sesta
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Posted - 2009.07.27 01:05:00 -
[36]
What irks me more, is when someone comes in and hugely bids up the buy price in a small market.
Somewhat higher prices might create a little bit more sales volume, but for the most part people dumping stuff in the small markets are mission runners or pirates that really don't want to bother with freighting stuff to jita and would just dump the items regardless of the price. Bidding 2 million instead of 1 million for an item that could be sold to the bid at 2.7 million in Jita just doesn't create many more sales... the sales volume is more based on drops to impatient sellers.
Say that item would sell pretty well at 3.5 million.
I'd probably still be bidding a dollar more at 2 million than at 1 million, but by someone taking the price up they've really reduced the total amount of profit to be made in a market.
I don't think they ARE getting more volume, but we are all surely are getting less profits.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.07.27 10:03:00 -
[37]
Moron #5 here.
I'm not interested in wasting my time with 0.01 ISK wars. I'm not interested in being instantly undercut and making no sales. I'm not interested in ""fair" trading". I'm not interested in your sales figures.
I'm interested in maximising profit and minimising workload. I'm interested in griefing my competition out of the market. I'm interested in your tears. I'm interested in destroying a market rather than letting another player dominate me.
If you think my prices are too low, buy me out.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.07.27 10:17:00 -
[38]
Quote:
If you think my prices are too low, buy me out
TBH this is usually what I do. 3 jumps and I am in another region, selling the same stuff for 600k to 1.2M more - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.07.27 10:40:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zamaranth Sesta What irks me more, is when someone comes in and hugely bids up the buy price in a small market.
They usually NEED the stuff then. For t2 production/invention.
Offers opportunity if you have some stock of the stuff. I was 0.01 isking for hours once with the same dude and he got miffed to the point where he raised them to just under mineral value. I said "thank you very much for saving me the trouble of hauling, reprocessing, more hauling and setting up sell orders" and just dumped my complete stock on him.
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Midas Man
Caldari Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.07.27 10:47:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Zamaranth Sesta What irks me more, is when someone comes in and hugely bids up the buy price in a small market.
Somewhat higher prices might create a little bit more sales volume, but for the most part people dumping stuff in the small markets are mission runners or pirates that really don't want to bother with freighting stuff to jita and would just dump the items regardless of the price. Bidding 2 million instead of 1 million for an item that could be sold to the bid at 2.7 million in Jita just doesn't create many more sales... the sales volume is more based on drops to impatient sellers.
Say that item would sell pretty well at 3.5 million.
I'd probably still be bidding a dollar more at 2 million than at 1 million, but by someone taking the price up they've really reduced the total amount of profit to be made in a market.
I don't think they ARE getting more volume, but we are all surely are getting less profits.
This is what happens in an efficient market ie one with lots of traders, If this really irks you then you could do everyone a favour and leave the market. That way you dont get irked the market becomes less effficient and everyone still involved earns more isk...everyones happy
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Ohhh Matron
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Posted - 2009.07.27 13:39:00 -
[41]
I too am one of the many mission runners that builds up piles of loot junk and then every so often dumps it on the market. I usally go around 3-4% under.
98% of it sells within 24 hours, I get a wodge of ISK and more than if I'd just sold it straight. I really dont care if serious traders buy the stuff to sell at a higher margin. I got the ISK I want and didnt have to spend hours analysing the market or shifting crap around.
Each to their own.
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ChinChinneyChin
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.27 15:09:00 -
[42]
i was ranting about a module i buy from hisec to sell in 0.0,
lots of people were trying to live off the back of work i had done, ive invested alot in this said module, it will be difficult for a trader to try and undercut me now that the hisec price is 1.6m, i sell them for 3m in 0.0, i brought lots when the module was 300k.
I think we just have to accept that theres a bunch of 13/14 year olds playing eve, and they have no idea how to trade, I bet they even lose money when trading cos they are so silly. yes, it makes perfect sense to only undercut by 0.01 cos all were fighting for is the next sale.
Some stupid people will undercut by millions just to get the first sale, this practice is stupid, and just devalues a module.
OP, the situation will not get better, as long as stupid people play eve there will always be stupid sell orders.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.07.27 15:22:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ohhh Matron I too am one of the many mission runners that builds up piles of loot junk and then every so often dumps it on the market. I usally go around 3-4% under.
98% of it sells within 24 hours, I get a wodge of ISK and more than if I'd just sold it straight. I really dont care if serious traders buy the stuff to sell at a higher margin. I got the ISK I want and didnt have to spend hours analysing the market or shifting crap around.
Each to their own.
BAD MATRON! Just right click and sell like a good mission runner!
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Desperdiciable
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Posted - 2009.07.27 15:22:00 -
[44]
I'm a market destroyer. Not a "trader" per se. I'm only interesting in buying, not selling, but sometimes I'm forced to sell. Usually I'll destroy a market in order to counter traders who increase their buy orders by an extravagant amount, which kills my margins (I won't buy anything over mineral value). So if they want to kill my margins, I'll kill theirs, and cut the price by an extravagent amount. I can make almost everything that I trade in at close to mineral price, and so I can obliterate margins. Most of the time this stabilizes my profits without having to do a lot of research for something new. When it doesn't work, I've still made a profit, and then I'll just move on.
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Sharon Lynn
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Posted - 2009.07.27 15:49:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
I'm the number 2 "moron", just not with these low priced items but something like 3 to 100 mil If i buy something for 15 mil and i put it on the market for 20, someone puts one one for 19.999.999.99, then i'll drop my price to 19 mil. And so on till it gets to 16 mil, that's where i stop lowering the price.
And i do this not because of crashing price or whatever market reason you can think of. I don't care about profit, i have more isk than i'll ever need, helped by the fact that i stopped playing this game, except for the trading.
And i know others are annoyed because of it, that makes it fun
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ChinChinneyChin
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.27 17:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Sharon Lynn
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
I'm the number 2 "moron", just not with these low priced items but something like 3 to 100 mil If i buy something for 15 mil and i put it on the market for 20, someone puts one one for 19.999.999.99, then i'll drop my price to 19 mil. And so on till it gets to 16 mil, that's where i stop lowering the price.
And i do this not because of crashing price or whatever market reason you can think of. I don't care about profit, i have more isk than i'll ever need, helped by the fact that i stopped playing this game, except for the trading.
And i know others are annoyed because of it, that makes it fun
Sharon thats really dumb, the problem is theres hundreds of "sharons", suppose 5 of you follow that logic selling a Drake for example, and u all keep undercutting each other by 100k in half a day u will have wiped 5 million off the value of the drake. all marketeers should simply reduce their price by 0.01 SIMPLY to get the next sale.
if u cant understand that, then good luck to u.
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Sharon Lynn
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Posted - 2009.07.27 17:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: ChinChinneyChin
Originally by: Sharon Lynn
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
I'm the number 2 "moron", just not with these low priced items but something like 3 to 100 mil If i buy something for 15 mil and i put it on the market for 20, someone puts one one for 19.999.999.99, then i'll drop my price to 19 mil. And so on till it gets to 16 mil, that's where i stop lowering the price.
And i do this not because of crashing price or whatever market reason you can think of. I don't care about profit, i have more isk than i'll ever need, helped by the fact that i stopped playing this game, except for the trading.
And i know others are annoyed because of it, that makes it fun
Sharon thats really dumb, the problem is theres hundreds of "sharons", suppose 5 of you follow that logic selling a Drake for example, and u all keep undercutting each other by 100k in half a day u will have wiped 5 million off the value of the drake. all marketeers should simply reduce their price by 0.01 SIMPLY to get the next sale.
if u cant understand that, then good luck to u.
What part of i don't care about profit did you not understand?
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ChinChinneyChin
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.02 13:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Sharon Lynn
Originally by: ChinChinneyChin
Originally by: Sharon Lynn
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
I'm the number 2 "moron", just not with these low priced items but something like 3 to 100 mil If i buy something for 15 mil and i put it on the market for 20, someone puts one one for 19.999.999.99, then i'll drop my price to 19 mil. And so on till it gets to 16 mil, that's where i stop lowering the price.
And i do this not because of crashing price or whatever market reason you can think of. I don't care about profit, i have more isk than i'll ever need, helped by the fact that i stopped playing this game, except for the trading.
And i know others are annoyed because of it, that makes it fun
Sharon thats really dumb, the problem is theres hundreds of "sharons", suppose 5 of you follow that logic selling a Drake for example, and u all keep undercutting each other by 100k in half a day u will have wiped 5 million off the value of the drake. all marketeers should simply reduce their price by 0.01 SIMPLY to get the next sale.
if u cant understand that, then good luck to u.
What part of i don't care about profit did you not understand?
if u dont care about profit, why do u stop undercutting when u get to 16m?
Why not sell an item u brought for 15m at 13 or 14m?
i suppose when u get down to 16m, then u will be ready to play the 0.01 game.
If u are only buying and selling to annoy other traders, u shud quit trading and do missions.
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Agrilad
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Posted - 2009.08.02 15:00:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
Hmmm. So anyone that doesn't agree with your tactics is a moron? I'd say that is a more sure indication of moronicness then your reason. I won't list out why people under cut you. That was done in other parts of the thread. Akita does a good job of it. So I am just here to point out that people not using the same tactics as you are not necessarily morons. They could be a lot smarter then you, and perhaps you could learn from them.
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Acalin
Gallente Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.08.02 18:16:00 -
[50]
Hmm, on some items i even undercut for 500k-1m.
Its called passive trading, not idiot trading.
I am busy elsewhere, so I dont wanna check every sale on all my traders in all different hubs 20 times a day to undercut 0.1 isk.
I bought something at a certain price, i count my % transport fee and I sell it at a price I find fair.
What i do notice is that by buying global (as in the whole off empire and not just exspensive Jita) I can easaly undercut 0.1 players by a large amount.
This results in them leaving the hub for that item and giving me 100% off sales and profit.
And you call me stupid?
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.08.02 20:02:00 -
[51]
I always like how these OP's polarize different stratagies as dumb/smart, profit/no-profit. Like one way has more validaty then the other.
Clue in people, traders use what works for them, just cause you don't like it, or 'get' it doesnt make it an invalid process.
Note: I don't .01 ISK trade. I always drop the price by huge margins, if others want to follow me down rather then buy my stuff then so be it, enjoy the ride. I'm generally only in that market item for a short time anyways and I really dont care if I crash it or not (actually it gives me pleasure to crash it, but apperently that's an invalid argument).
-Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Mahke
Aeon Of Strife Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:12:00 -
[52]
It's not moronic at all.
I don't market trade in normal items much, but, when I do I play as number 2 (drop prices by like 100k or whatever when someone undercuts me by .01) most of the time.
The reason thats done is it works. I'm not active enough, and when I am I can't be bothered, to play the .01 game + I don't have any one thing I'm invested in trading long term. So if people like you are aggressive in locking me out of whatever market I'm dabbling in with .01-ing; I'll just slowly degrade the market each time it happens, which can only help me. These are the outcomes:
(a) the .01ers leave or get less active, giving me some profit. I don't care that it's less profit than you got; I would have had nearly nothing if playing the .01 game and not worth the time.
(b) I get bought out. Then decide to take my profit and go or to pour more into market
(c) the .01ers keep going until I've wrecked the market. Once it's low enough I stop bothering with it, but leave a sell/buy order up (I have spares, not a big deal) to keep the market wrecked. This doesn't benefit me monetarily, but I DO get the satisfaction that if I am not allowed to gain from the market, no one is . This is EVE; not WoW, people do that sort of thing and if you can't deal with it you are playing the wrong game.
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Jim Nakamura
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Posted - 2009.08.02 23:26:00 -
[53]
I'm the typical rightclick->sell moron most of the time. It's more trouble than it's worth going through 100+ items and trying to decide what's worth selling and what's not, let alone hauling all that crap to a trade hub and setting up sell orders.
Hell, half the time I just move my ship mods and stuff I want to keep into a separate container, select everything else and reprocess it. And then just rightclick->sell the resulting minerals. It's almost as if I can hear the screams of infuriated traders (and a couple of happy ones with low-balled buy orders) as I do it...
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Pobjesnjeli Dario
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Posted - 2009.08.03 18:40:00 -
[54]
And what if you buy out morons items and he place it again and again and again?
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:19:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Pobjesnjeli Dario And what if you buy out morons items and he place it again and again and again?
It's good business?
-Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Grieg IX
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:40:00 -
[56]
Frankly, I find .01 traders to be annoying so I almost never purchase from a .01 trader. If I see a lot of price points all .01 ISK apart, I will buy from the round number at the top of the list. I am grateful that traders play the .01 game as such price points serve to identify the originators of an order as a trader and I would rather reward producers with my consumption than a trader.
Traders exist because markets are inefficient and the more efficient markets become, the more difficult will be the life of the traders until all producers sell directly to consumers and all consumers purchase directly from producers. I don't much care for those persons that choose parasitic professions; traders, politicians and lawyers included.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:58:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Grieg IX Frankly, I find .01 traders to be annoying so I almost never purchase from a .01 trader. If I see a lot of price points all .01 ISK apart, I will buy from the round number at the top of the list. I am grateful that traders play the .01 game as such price points serve to identify the originators of an order as a trader and I would rather reward producers with my consumption than a trader.
When you buy from a sell order that is not the lowest price then the person that has the lowest price sells his items and gets paid the higher price. What you are doing is giving the traders, who you say you despise, more income than they were expecting.
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Justinius Augustus
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Posted - 2009.08.03 22:27:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Justinius Augustus on 03/08/2009 22:27:51 I may be a moron--I don't know. I'm a producer, not a trader, so I usually price my merchandise by figuring the opportunity cost of not selling my ore and then marking up maybe 100% from cost. Sometimes when I check the market, I see people with sell orders twice as high as mine, but since I'm in a region that doesn't generally trade in high volume, those prices could be rubbish for all I know. If something sells really fast, I'll increment my next sell order by a modest amount, but I honestly don't care who's buying it, if it's missioners or traders. If somebody is profiting off of my stupidity, more power to them--I'm just happy that my business has high liquidity and I don't have to haul my ore all over the region trying to get the best buy order.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.04 00:53:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jim Nakamura I'm the typical rightclick->sell moron most of the time. It's more trouble than it's worth going through 100+ items and trying to decide what's worth selling and what's not, let alone hauling all that crap to a trade hub and setting up sell orders.
Hell, half the time I just move my ship mods and stuff I want to keep into a separate container, select everything else and reprocess it. And then just rightclick->sell the resulting minerals. It's almost as if I can hear the screams of infuriated traders (and a couple of happy ones with low-balled buy orders) as I do it...
For awhile in my current corp we used to have a bunch of mission runners. I had a running tab with them that they could contract the entire lot and I would pay them the 20% short. Meaning of the spread between high and low, they would get 20%.
All of them loved it. They didn't have to haul jack crap, or check anything for that matter. Just select all, contract up, and get paid.
Just something for others to think about if you are a trader in a mission running heavy corporation. |
Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.08.04 09:29:00 -
[60]
The OP is a noob.
Why waste time playing the 0.01 game when I can use the same time killing npcs to gain more millions?
For a newbie, or dedicaced trader, maximising profit is important. But for someone with multi-billions worth of assets like me, I really could care less wether I sell my loot 1.2 or 1.4 millions. I'll start paying attention to profits only when it start involving dozens of millions of lost margins.
Besides, I don't like the 0.01 isk game, so ****ing those players off by lowering their margins or forcing them to buy my stuff become an objective in itself. ------------------------------------------
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Tanja Cyprus
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:16:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Grieg IX Frankly, I find .01 traders to be annoying so I almost never purchase from a .01 trader. If I see a lot of price points all .01 ISK apart, I will buy from the round number at the top of the list. I am grateful that traders play the .01 game as such price points serve to identify the originators of an order as a trader and I would rather reward producers with my consumption than a trader.
When you buy from a sell order that is not the lowest price then the person that has the lowest price sells his items and gets paid the higher price. What you are doing is giving the traders, who you say you despise, more income than they were expecting.
which is why you do it outside station.
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Xiola Umbar
Minmatar Iron Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:28:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tanja Cyprus
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Grieg IX Frankly, I find .01 traders to be annoying so I almost never purchase from a .01 trader. If I see a lot of price points all .01 ISK apart, I will buy from the round number at the top of the list. I am grateful that traders play the .01 game as such price points serve to identify the originators of an order as a trader and I would rather reward producers with my consumption than a trader.
When you buy from a sell order that is not the lowest price then the person that has the lowest price sells his items and gets paid the higher price. What you are doing is giving the traders, who you say you despise, more income than they were expecting.
which is why you do it outside station.
Huh?
Lowest price wins, regardless.
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Pobjesnjeli Dario
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:44:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Pobjesnjeli Dario on 04/08/2009 12:44:17 I was selling t2 expanded cargohold for 950k and it was going very fast and then some fool put it at 750k. Thats almost low as Jita price. A day after i bought his items he put it again at same price. Its really stupid and u cant fight those. He is just killing everyones profit.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:18:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Pobjesnjeli Dario Edited by: Pobjesnjeli Dario on 04/08/2009 12:44:17 I was selling t2 expanded cargohold for 950k and it was going very fast and then some fool put it at 750k. Thats almost low as Jita price. A day after i bought his items he put it again at same price. Its really stupid and u cant fight those. He is just killing everyones profit.
I know where and who is doing this and it annoys me as well. If you want some info send me an eve mail.
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Boink'urr
Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst
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Posted - 2009.08.04 16:29:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Shadowsword The OP is a noob.
Why waste time playing the 0.01 game when I can use the same time killing npcs to gain more millions? snip.
Xcuse me, i've only been playing for 6 months but even -I- know you can adjust prices on your orders and kill at the same time :P
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.08.04 17:01:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Boink'urr
Originally by: Shadowsword The OP is a noob.
Why waste time playing the 0.01 game when I can use the same time killing npcs to gain more millions? snip.
Xcuse me, i've only been playing for 6 months but even -I- know you can adjust prices on your orders and kill at the same time :P
Of course, but it degrade your mission-running income (you pay less attention, your grinding lose in efficiency), and running dual accounts is already hard enough without requiring permanent market monitoring. Besides, you'll often be selling in another region that the one you're in. ------------------------------------------
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Gabriel Virtus
hirr
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Posted - 2009.08.04 17:55:00 -
[67]
Buy them out and repost. Maybe send them an evemail thanking them for their patronage. When he drops, .01 isk him. When he does it again, .01 isk him. Eventually buy the market out and repost.
It seems these threads are constantly asked. A summary for newer players.
1. .01 isk him 2. .01 isk him 3. buy out his stock 4. profit
-GV
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.04 20:35:00 -
[68]
Drive me down enough and buy me out. I do that on principle btw as I don't do 0.01 isk war. So there is 2 options. Drive it down and buy out or let it sit there selling and pray that nobody else undercuts by that 0.01 isk.
Fortunately I don't have neither free capital nor patience to really trade. I can be encountered from time to time cashing in LP tho. I stop at around 1200 isk/LP.
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.08.05 01:25:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Buy them out and repost. Maybe send them an evemail thanking them for their patronage. When he drops, .01 isk him. When he does it again, .01 isk him. Eventually buy the market out and repost.
It seems these threads are constantly asked. A summary for newer players.
1. .01 isk him 2. .01 isk him 3. buy out his stock 4. profit
-GV
And everyone wins. Or you could just whine on the forums...
"Wah... someone's poaching my market like a big meanie! Make them stop."
-Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.08.05 02:09:00 -
[70]
Gentlemen your manners..
Dear OP Welcome to the MD.
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge Got Game? Peak a boo... |
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Hippy Dave
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Posted - 2009.08.05 03:01:00 -
[71]
As many have pointed out there are numerous and perfectly valid reasons for both the examples laid out by the OP. Dont see the problem myself.
Now the really irritating people are the ones who think adjusting the price by 0.5 or 1 rather than 0.1 will give them some upper hand or advantage in the 0.1 war...
It cant be manipulation (it would take way to long) its just people thinking that somehow a tiny amount more will suddenly force everyone else out.
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.08.05 04:44:00 -
[72]
Well microbidders are to market what can flippers and salvage thieves are in space...
Its part of current mechanics.. No way to avoid it..
OP is evolved to fit the microbids, but have not yet seen there is a thing called a donchian and read up on turnover..
Also there is ofc grief from bigger fish that might want to mess with your market simply because it might benefit him elsewhere...
Oh and on an end note.. Some traders are actually into pushing and pulling market according to their production or regional buying cycles..
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge Got Game? Peak a boo... |
Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.08.05 09:39:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Hippy Dave ...Now the really irritating people are the ones who think adjusting the price by 0.5 or 1 rather than 0.1 will give them some upper hand or advantage in the 0.1 war...
It cant be manipulation (it would take way to long) its just people thinking that somehow a tiny amount more will suddenly force everyone else out.
Maybe the reason they do it is just that: to irritate you. It's not like it cost them anything to do this... ------------------------------------------
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jk scowling
Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.08.05 14:52:00 -
[74]
Oh, is it that time again, another "ur not doinitrite!!!" 0.01 isk thread. All we need now is another one berating people for undercutting by 0.01 isk.
Fact is, people have different methods for trading, and if you don't have loads of time to sit changing orders aggressive undercutting can work.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.05 15:36:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Durzel on 05/08/2009 15:40:30
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
I hate playing 0.01 ISK games, haven't got the time nor patience for it.
If I just want to sell something and some other lamer keeps gazumping me by 0.01 ISK then I think f*** it down the price comes. I just want to sell it and GTFO out of Jita, I don't particularly care about the profit margin so long as it's above the buy order price.
Also I don't really see the problem - as has been said already you can just buy the cheap trader out and restock it at your inflated price, everyone's a winner.
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Sharon Lynn
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:52:00 -
[76]
Originally by: ChinChinneyChin
if u dont care about profit, why do u stop undercutting when u get to 16m?
Why not sell an item u brought for 15m at 13 or 14m?
i suppose when u get down to 16m, then u will be ready to play the 0.01 game.
If u are only buying and selling to annoy other traders, u shud quit trading and do missions.
I stop at 16 to keep the profit for others low, i'm not playing that 0.01 game. I won't sell for less then i bought because i don't see why i should.
I don't see why doing missions has anything to do with annoying other traders.
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Acalin
Gallente Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:56:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Pobjesnjeli Dario Edited by: Pobjesnjeli Dario on 04/08/2009 12:44:17 I was selling t2 expanded cargohold for 950k and it was going very fast and then some fool put it at 750k. Thats almost low as Jita price. A day after i bought his items he put it again at same price. Its really stupid and u cant fight those. He is just killing everyones profit.
he might be making em and now he doesnt need to ship it to jita since u buy em?
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Acalin
Gallente Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:00:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Sharon Lynn
Originally by: ChinChinneyChin
if u dont care about profit, why do u stop undercutting when u get to 16m?
Why not sell an item u brought for 15m at 13 or 14m?
i suppose when u get down to 16m, then u will be ready to play the 0.01 game.
If u are only buying and selling to annoy other traders, u shud quit trading and do missions.
I stop at 16 to keep the profit for others low, i'm not playing that 0.01 game. I won't sell for less then i bought because i don't see why i should.
I don't see why doing missions has anything to do with annoying other traders.
replying as I read hence the dubbel post
Exactly Sharon.
Sell at your margin off profit, if its to low for the rest let them move. This is called FREE TRADE.
Hope I didnt sound to excited :p
Acalin
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Desperdiciable
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Posted - 2009.08.06 13:49:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Hippy Dave Now the really irritating people are the ones who think adjusting the price by 0.5 or 1 rather than 0.1 will give them some upper hand or advantage in the 0.1 war...
Because I found it irritating when it happened to me, I imagined that it would be irritating to others, too. So, that's why I do it, and as said above, I lose nothing (or more precisely, nothing in practical terms) by it. Depending on my mood, I'll round to the nearest 1, 10, 15, or whatever. I like the round numbers.
However when I find people who invariable try to "code" their trades by always terminating with 0.99, or 0.23, or whatnot, I'll do the same thing, just to **** them off, too.
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Desperdiciable
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Posted - 2009.08.06 13:50:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Desperdiciable on 06/08/2009 13:49:50 edit: double post
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.06 15:16:00 -
[81]
Quote:
Of course, but it degrade your mission-running income (you pay less attention, your grinding lose in efficiency), and running dual accounts is already hard enough without requiring permanent market monitoring
Duh, I trade, mission and dual hulk with no issue. It's not like my arties fire quicker or mining lasers take less than 3 mins per cycle if I don't alt tab...
Quote:
As many have pointed out there are numerous and perfectly valid reasons for both the examples laid out by the OP. Dont see the problem myself.
Now the really irritating people are the ones who think adjusting the price by 0.5 or 1 rather than 0.1 will give them some upper hand or advantage in the 0.1 war...
It cant be manipulation (it would take way to long) its just people thinking that somehow a tiny amount more will suddenly force everyone else out
Besides to annoy others, this custom has originally born off traders who usually trade at Jita on super high volume items and do this out of habit now. The 0.5 is because by the time you finish typing the one digit that changes, 3-4 new orders were already made undercutting the one you want to undercut.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Gabriel Rosencrantz
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Posted - 2009.08.06 16:01:00 -
[82]
1. Acquire goods at prices below best Jita buy (preferably) or best Jita sell. 2. Go to where dumb traders think they own the hub in their region. 3. List items at prices above your buy price but below the prevailing hub price. 4. Sell crazy volume because all the stupid traders are doing their buying and selling at THIS hub, instead of the more competively priced Jita hub, because they have some crazy notion about what prices "should be." 5. Profit like crazy. 6. Repeat
Note: the reality is, you're buying below what your selling, so we BOTH make money. So, what are you complaining about? Your likely response will be "but you could make more." True, but then I would have to sit at my computer playing the .01 game. Instead, I manage my other char's and make even more than what I would be piddling around with market orders. |
Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
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Posted - 2009.08.06 17:27:00 -
[83]
I love these threads.
If I'm making money, I win.
If I'm irritating you, I win.
If I happen to do both with the same order, double win.
Emotional traders make mistakes. Please, rant all you want. The angrier you get, the more fun I'm having. ------------------------------------- NECB |
Teras Menac
Gallente Caldari POS Constructions Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.06 18:51:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Mordou Use him to drive all the prices down, then buy everything up, then profit.
This if it's possible, but sometimes they just drop more units that it is worth it to buy. Usually I simply punish them by driving their prices down to a narrow profit margin and then wait for them to sell out.
I don't know why they think they'll sell faster by driving down the prices. In many places if something is selling at a higher price then they won't sell any faster at the lower rate because people are simply buying based on need not based on price.
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Teras Menac
Gallente Caldari POS Constructions Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.06 18:54:00 -
[85]
Originally by: jk scowling Oh, is it that time again, another "ur not doinitrite!!!" 0.01 isk thread. All we need now is another one berating people for undercutting by 0.01 isk.
Fact is, people have different methods for trading, and if you don't have loads of time to sit changing orders aggressive undercutting can work.
Oh look it's another 'ur not doinitrite!!!' complaint reply about a topic they didn't even have to open.
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Mikael Genexi
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Posted - 2009.08.06 18:59:00 -
[86]
Sometimes using the .01 method is the right way to trade, sometimes it isn't.
If you think it is the only way to "trade properly" then you aren't a very good trader.
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Teras Menac
Gallente Caldari POS Constructions Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.06 19:06:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Sharon Lynn
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
I'm the number 2 "moron", just not with these low priced items but something like 3 to 100 mil If i buy something for 15 mil and i put it on the market for 20, someone puts one one for 19.999.999.99, then i'll drop my price to 19 mil. And so on till it gets to 16 mil, that's where i stop lowering the price.
And i do this not because of crashing price or whatever market reason you can think of. I don't care about profit, i have more isk than i'll ever need, helped by the fact that i stopped playing this game, except for the trading.
And i know others are annoyed because of it, that makes it fun
Yeah, you are the perfect target for 'punishment'. IE, I'll lose money in order to get out of a particular market if someone like you comes along, but I'll make sure to bring your profit margin low in the same way you brought mine low. There are ways to do it to ensure that you don't actually sell that much.
Say you lower it by 1m I lower it by .01 you lower it by 1m I lower it by .01, someone else lowers it by .01 you lower it by 1m, and before we know it we're at your cost price. You stop at your floor, I lower it by a million, someone else lowers it by .01, I reset my price back to the other side of the 'bubble' where the gap between the bidding wars occurred and wait for you guys to sell out.
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Otebski
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Posted - 2009.08.07 12:07:00 -
[88]
Another moron here:
I dont want to baby sit my orders. I dont do trading full time When I see a trading oportunity i want to get back cash from it fast.
Selling warriors II at 430k if i bought em for 380k is perfectly fine for me even if current market price is 480k. Because I get back invested cash same day and can put it to use elsewhere. And my carecup is empty when i get QQ mails people telling me how they spend 2 weeks driving price up that high.
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Arelys
Arelys Cartel
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Posted - 2009.08.07 12:24:00 -
[89]
Sadly you are assuming that the number 2 moron has an infinte amount of liquid assets. Assuming that he cant move that much goods at the time, selling at significantly lower prices for a profit will yeild a higher turnover of goods and while his Profit/Good might not be as high as yours, his Profit/Time is probably higher.
Also, you seem to belive that all goods in the market are being sold by wholesale traders. Assuming that the traders operating in your market has an intrest in setting a lower price standard for the region, he might not be as bothered with small term profit but rather the possiblity a long-term price standard that suits him.
My point in this being; Don't be quick in assuming that people are morons just because they aint following your philosophy of trading, rather try and figure out their place and goal in the market and use them for your own profit Ship explosions are legen, wait for it, DARY!!!! |
Cynel
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Posted - 2009.08.07 14:14:00 -
[90]
Number [..] moron here :)
OP, you are a trader and do it for profit. The more profit you get, the happier you are. I am not a trader, but I like to undercut your price by 10-15% Why? Because I want you to drop your price, I want everyone in the region to drop their price. Why? Because I like to PvP and I don't find it interesting flying to Jita to get cheap(er) stuff. Yeh, pretty often I have to buy new ship and fit. So I get a few overpriced items I use in PvP and put them on market, undercutting your price by 200k If you follow me a couple of times, I stop and let you have the cheapest offers on market, hoping the other "0.01 traders" follow you. Now I have my almost-Jita-prices right where I live, I can go and get blown up much cheaper.
And one might say, I've also defeated you on market PvP, because instead of the 3 million profit I would have paid you, now you only get 1. That would be 2 million profit for me $$
Of course it's an alt post, I don't need hate in game
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ChinChinneyChin
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 14:14:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Sharon Lynn
Originally by: ChinChinneyChin
if u dont care about profit, why do u stop undercutting when u get to 16m?
Why not sell an item u brought for 15m at 13 or 14m?
i suppose when u get down to 16m, then u will be ready to play the 0.01 game.
If u are only buying and selling to annoy other traders, u shud quit trading and do missions.
I stop at 16 to keep the profit for others low, i'm not playing that 0.01 game. I won't sell for less then i bought because i don't see why i should.
I don't see why doing missions has anything to do with annoying other traders.
I see, so u do care about profit then.
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Vasundhara
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Posted - 2009.08.07 19:13:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Teras Menac
Originally by: jk scowling Oh, is it that time again, another "ur not doinitrite!!!" 0.01 isk thread. All we need now is another one berating people for undercutting by 0.01 isk.
Fact is, people have different methods for trading, and if you don't have loads of time to sit changing orders aggressive undercutting can work.
Oh look it's another 'ur not doinitrite!!!' complaint reply about a topic they didn't even have to open.
Oh look it's another reply to a 'ur not doinitrite!!!' complaint reply about a topic he didn't even have to open that you didn't have to reply to that I felt compelled to reply to as an exercise in nested replies to replies of complaint replies regarding topics that have been replied to already many times in the past.
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.07 20:30:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Here is the situation. You have item that sells at Jita for around 800k. Yet in my local trade hub, the "smart" traders have managed to get the prices up around 1,4mil and people still buy.
So we are talking almost 80 to 90% profits, if everyone plays ball and sticks with the .01 wars. Everyone gets some sales and we all make nice profits.. However, there is always 2 types of morons that enter the equation.
Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
I wonder who the real moron is? *********** Military Tactics Dasfry, CEO Demio's Corporation
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Aethrwolf
Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.08.08 03:57:00 -
[94]
I hate the .01 ISK games, so I'll deliberately undercut to just above mineral cost if its mission loot. Buy orders, on the other hand, I set buy orders only when I need mins for a big project, so when someone starts the .01 isk **** on them I will make a couple of price jumps to discourage them, and if it continues I'll run right up to just above mineral cost on reprocessables. I have one person right now I'm pricing against who has activity suspiciously like a macro, so I took an isk hit just to run some of my buy orders up to .01 ISK under the MOST unprofitable sell orders in the area just to see what happens. I will continue to hold those orders there until either the other guy goes away, or he contacts me to ask wtf I'm doing. Since I've long since realized he knows who's doing it. If I get annoyed enough, I'll find every order that toon has and slaughter all his market orders in my area.. training an alt's market skills atm so I know I'll have enough available orders for it. Absolutely everything is subjective. |
Doomed Predator
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.08 17:32:00 -
[95]
When i started trading I was like the OP,only for buy orders. Thankfuly I quickly found out that those ''idiot traders'' were stimulating the market so they could have 100k profit on 100 items a day and not500k profits on 2 items a day. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Mr Costington
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Posted - 2009.08.10 05:50:00 -
[96]
The 'stupid' traders are the ones who are selling 20000 of an item when I'm selling five, and drop their price from a 50% profit to a 25% profit to undercut me. You could buy me out instead and still make a profit off of my stuff at your current selling price.
Essentially, I'm giving 50% of my profit to you so I don't have to play the 0.01isk game. If you're already 0.01 isking, then by buying my stuff you're getting FREE MONEY. By undercutting, you cost us both money.
That being said, a lot of people WANT to crash the price of certain items. How often do you look at the value of reprocessed minerals or finished products (in the case of components)? Are you blindly 'buying low and selling high'?
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Veebring Greetings
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Posted - 2009.08.10 15:08:00 -
[97]
The $tupid traders who sell low do not sell any more than the others. They are only too lazy to play the market game properly and accept lower returns for less effort.
One counter for independent traders is to be soft and move on to some other goods that are not being actively spoilt. Or you can also have the noobs killed until they understand, thats what tends to happen with larger outlets
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.08.10 17:51:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Veebring Greetings The $tupid traders who sell low do not sell any more than the others. They are only too lazy to play the market game properly and accept lower returns for less effort.
One counter for independent traders is to be soft and move on to some other goods that are not being actively spoilt. Or you can also have the noobs killed until they understand, thats what tends to happen with larger outlets
I see what you did there. You used an $ instead of an s, that's really clever!
I also tried to kill noob's in stations once, it was mouchos funos. The station guns are quite a harrowing experience.
2/10
-Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.08.10 18:28:00 -
[99]
So for you, the only two options are: 1) Don't compete and instead share, which is very un-Eve-like, IMO. 2) Actually compete and be called a moron. I thought the market was about competition, not "sharing". Silly me.
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Veebring Greetings
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Posted - 2009.08.11 12:45:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Kyra Felann So for you, the only two options are: 1) Don't compete and instead share, which is very un-Eve-like, IMO. 2) Actually compete and be called a moron. I thought the market was about competition, not "sharing". Silly me.
Yep you're right about the silly thing only here
ad 1 - newbs need to expand their horizons. Some of the best corps and alliances practice various levels of eve-communism.
ad 2 - a race to the bottom is not competition, it's ruinous. Instead you should be competing to get your wallet well filled.
Some players really have a hard time understanding even the basics.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.11 13:31:00 -
[101]
So to recap everyone
If I buy Item A at X price and sell it for X+Y, its cool If I buy Item A at X price and sell it for X+Y(.5) I'm a moron
...I'm still failing to see the issue here. I still made a profit |
Desperdiciable
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Posted - 2009.08.11 13:53:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Desperdiciable on 11/08/2009 13:53:44
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria So to recap everyone
If I buy Item A at X price and sell it for X+Y, its cool If I buy Item A at X price and sell it for X+Y(.5) I'm a moron
...I'm still failing to see the issue here. I still made a profit
The problem is you're decreasing the obsessive traders' profits by not being equally obsessive yourself (for shame!). Look:
Originally by: Veebring Greetings ad 2 - a race to the bottom is not competition, it's ruinous. Instead you should be competing to get your wallet well filled.
Some players really have a hard time understanding even the basics.
See, some players have a hard time understanding that without being an obsessive trader, we can still make billions of iskies while racing to the bottom, with very, very little effort, whereas the obsessive types will be 0.01-isking their orders for hours on end while we "stupid" ones will be passively making billions while pew-pewing with our other mains and actually enjoying the game.
Really, the truly "stupid" one are the ones that don't understand the time value of money. (In RL, this probably applies to lots of us who make a RL salary in GTC's that's greater than we make in in-game trading.)
Edit: isk, not a different currency.
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Veebring Greetings
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:09:00 -
[103]
Well, as I said before. Way too little understanding of market basics and too little effort to really exploit the profit margins.
And then they always come crying big bear tears when people don't think that "minerals are free" or "gtc selling makes me a leet pvp dood"
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Jake Bronson
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:36:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia Here is the situation. You have item that sells at Jita for around 800k. Yet in my local trade hub, the "smart" traders have managed to get the prices up around 1,4mil and people still buy.
So we are talking almost 80 to 90% profits, if everyone plays ball and sticks with the .01 wars. Everyone gets some sales and we all make nice profits.. However, there is always 2 types of morons that enter the equation.
Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
Though I'm very new to this game (5 days), I can say a few things about this topic.
1) The seller does not care. Period. Their main goal is to dump product as fast as possible. They don't "play" the market at the current location and care less what impacts it has on those that do.
2) Assuming someone is a moron for doing unthinkable things in your book... Don't be so quick to judge. I suppose you've never heard of Nathan Rothschild and Waterloo? Google it.
Originally by: Akita T
Undercutting others by a huge percentage or amount until the others just give up and leave or buy you out is a perfectly legitimate tactic for the trader that doesn't have the time to play the 0.01 dance. From his viewpoint, a minimal margin on a large volume is better than a big margin on next to no volume at all. Other times, these people are not actually selling, they ARE BUYING. They want you to follow them down, so THEY can buy YOU out cheaply. And yet again another time, you're just facing somebody who just wants to get rid of his inventory, and considers the buy order price far too low.
Sounds to me like none of the above is stupid at all - if they WOULD be stupid you would have a very fast and very clear answer to this "problem".
^ This is the correct analogy.
In every other MMO I've played I did this all the time. Constantly disrupting the market and letting it climb back up. I make a KILLING doing it too. How? I "let" the prices climb, then DUMP loads of product on the market and watch sellers buy HUGE quantities of my product to keep the market from crashing... eventually it does. THEY are stuck with excess inventory and spend the next while offloading it (for small margins).
In the meantime, I am stockpiling product... so I can rinse and repeat.
In response to the OP's complaint... You think a game ecomony should be stable, smooth, no disruptions? Count your blessings it is as smooth as it is. Real world markets are dog eat dog. You don't see such behavior in the real world market simple because it is too fragile. Traders know the limits and they push them EVERY DAY. Nathan Rothschild, as evil as he was, taught us that valuable lesson.
Don't get mad at other "morons" just because they are eatting into your profits in ways in which you do not agree with. - nOOb alert - |
Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:49:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Tesal I also deleted the decimel point once when selling stuff, and it left me traumatized, so I avoid them usually. I think I am less error prone when I use nicely rounded numbers.
It doesn't happen very often, but I love it when people misplace those decimal points... Nothing like putting up a buy order at 10 or 100 times the intended price, or a sell order similarly low.
This is exactly why I rarely deal with the decimal point myself when putting up a new order. The extra few isk isn't worth the risk of a misplaced decimal. When modifying orders and I want to change the price by a few isk I'll use the mousewheel, though.
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Stela'Artois
Capital Ventures Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:56:00 -
[106]
I personally dont mind the .01 isk game, or undercutting or any of that stuff. In EvE, trading and playing the markets is just as much PvP as fighting ship on ship...and with some people the gains/losses are far higher.
Whats the difference in me blowing up your shiney new BS and costing you 100mil in replacement or me undercutting you by .01 and getting that next big order that gets me 100mil in profits when you should have had 101 mil in profits? Either way, I cost you time and money.
I will admit though, I am irritated by people who cut the price by odd amounts, such as taking something down to the next whole number...i.e. 1129.98 being reduced to 1120.00 or something. At least the .01 game retains the margins better and gives everyone at least a fair shake (though fair is irrelevant, it is still nice to experience).
But oh how I love when people try to dump product and sell it for 10-20% less...its a darn quick way to get new inventory!
Last note...all traders have to realize that there is a bigger fish out there somewhere and at any given time they could crash any market you are trying to fiddle with and make your day rough. The good news is, to someone else, >you< are that big fish!
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:56:00 -
[107]
I do it to avoid the .01 isk war, to cut your profits, to right the market value against your price fixing, and to move my goods fast.
I must be all kinds of numbers.
Of course I deal in goods that cost in the hundreds of millions so I probably don't **** off a small fry like yourself.
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
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