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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.16 22:42:00 -
[1]
I (and others) believe that CCP slightly overcooked the web balance especially in the case of the Minmatar recons. While a balance was needed as 90% at 40km+ was a bit much the current state of webs in this case along with the rebalance of speed in the game has significantly reduced the ability of the Rapier/Huginn to act properly as force multipliers. Not to mention the Hyena (urrrrg).
Those who fly either are fully aware of how slow these 2 ships have become. As both are designed to dictate engagement range and/or act as a multi-support webbing platform for a gang/fleet it would seem the max web speed reduction of 60% is simply not quite right.
I would suggest (as with other EWAR) that webs be left as is for ships without a bonus (i.e.60% speed reduction)..but perhaps introduce a 2.5-5% bonus per level to web strength for both Minmatar recons and the Hyena.
Mathwise (based on base 60% with best case 5%/level) this would work out to approx:
Level 1=63% web strength Level 2=66% web strength Level 3=69% web strength Level 4=72% web strength Level V=75%. web strength
At Recon V/EAF V this would make far more balanced difference in the ability of all three ships to act in their proper roles.
Thank you for your attention.
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RuleoftheBone
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.16 22:44:00 -
[2]
Oh yeah. I support this.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.07.17 00:31:00 -
[3]
Supported ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.07.17 01:31:00 -
[4]
rapier/huginn/hyena is currently useless.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Felix Mibaz
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Posted - 2009.07.17 01:39:00 -
[5]
They aren't useless, just less useful.
Still most horrid EAF is gallente, most terrible force recon is gallente, as well as their combat recon.
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.07.17 01:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Felix Mibaz They aren't useless, just less useful.
Still most horrid EAF is gallente, most terrible force recon is gallente, as well as their combat recon.
it's true, and i want to try to get CCP to look at all of them(all currently terrible ships) via future proposals. i want to ask for at least the ability for players to testdrive the suggested alterations on singularity and implementation only after testing concludes they aren't overpowered.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.17 08:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Felix Mibaz They aren't useless, just less useful.
Still most horrid EAF is gallente, most terrible force recon is gallente, as well as their combat recon.
it's true, and i want to try to get CCP to look at all of them(all currently terrible ships) via future proposals. i want to ask for at least the ability for players to testdrive the suggested alterations on singularity and implementation only after testing concludes they aren't overpowered.
I am not 100% sure that the Arazu/Lach/Keres are as out of whack as the Minmatar recons. With advanced damp skills trained, Recon/EAF V, and sound fitting the Gallente boats are fully capable of shutting down an individual ship in two-even three-different ways:
-Warp disruption from extended range. -Warp scram from extended range shutting down MWD's. -Skilled Arazu/Lach pilot should be able to damp to under 21km any non-sensor-boosted ship other than a recon.
Not to mention intelligent damp users on both recons having the ability to follow wingman EWAR cycles with porked lock times on multiple targets...even supporting mid-long range engagements by damping down target range of multiple ships.
This of course is depending on the pilot to not suck and fit/fly correctly.
Compared to the Minmatar ability to use 60% long range webs (currently pretty bleah) and the ridiculous situational use (or pointlessness) of the painter bonus I would suggest the Minnie recons/EAF's are far more broken in terms of overall usefulness.
And yeah...I'm gonna add the Gallente recons shortly to my personal stable (with prop jam V and advanced damps to L4 ).
Anyway-I have edited the OP for a bit of clarity. And much <3 to Mazz for actually taking to time to pay attention to the wee folk's suggestions amoungst the general high SNR present in this forum area. I'm glad I voted for you .
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Aura Mega
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Posted - 2009.07.17 09:01:00 -
[8]
/Supported |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.07.17 09:21:00 -
[9]
/me pets his Recon V skill.
Despite having had some fun in my rapier lately, I must admit that I found it disturbing that it was impossible to hold down a vagabond with 2 webs on him.
The only thing these things can hold in place right now are big fat ships with afterburners.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.07.17 09:35:00 -
[10]
Supported
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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irion felpamy
SkillzKillz United For 0rder
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Posted - 2009.07.17 12:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Felix Mibaz They aren't useless, just less useful.
Still most horrid EAF is gallente, most terrible force recon is gallente, as well as their combat recon.
The arazu is as awesome as the lach is bad.
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ChinaWillGrowLarger
Heretic Command
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Posted - 2009.07.17 12:31:00 -
[12]
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.07.17 12:35:00 -
[13]
As for "2 webs being insufficient to slow down Vagabond", all you need is a warp scrambler.
I like my 40km range webs. Want to know more? |
Darus Te'rashad
The Forbidden Hunters
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Posted - 2009.07.17 12:35:00 -
[14]
Supported.
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.07.17 13:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock As for "2 webs being insufficient to slow down Vagabond", all you need is a warp scrambler.
I like my 40km range webs.
so you need a team of arazu/lach and huginn/rapier to slow one ship down?
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Ian Morrolan
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.17 14:02:00 -
[16]
This is a good idea and should be implemented.
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.07.17 14:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock As for "2 webs being insufficient to slow down Vagabond", all you need is a warp scrambler.
I like my 40km range webs.
so you need a team of arazu/lach and huginn/rapier to slow one ship down?
Well you just need a ship with a warp scrambler. Want to know more? |
mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.07.17 14:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock As for "2 webs being insufficient to slow down Vagabond", all you need is a warp scrambler.
I like my 40km range webs.
so you need a team of arazu/lach and huginn/rapier to slow one ship down?
Well you just need a ship with a warp scrambler.
so you could just use a single ship, a rapier at 10km range?
rapiers are supposed to stop ships, and they aren't doing that right now.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.07.17 14:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock As for "2 webs being insufficient to slow down Vagabond", all you need is a warp scrambler.
I like my 40km range webs.
so you need a team of arazu/lach and huginn/rapier to slow one ship down?
Well you just need a ship with a warp scrambler.
so you could just use a single ship, a rapier at 10km range?
rapiers are supposed to stop ships, and they aren't doing that right now.
So you want a solo pwn-mobile? Its an MMO, why don't you team up with somebody? Warp scramblers were introduced for exactly this reason, to stop people! Webifiers only slow them down. Want to know more? |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.17 15:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Some stuff that doesn't make sense if the OP was actually READ
The days of the solo "pwn-mobile" Rapier/Huginn went away with the damp balance (unless target BS/BC/HAC pilots were stupid). The DPS capabilities of both ships are fairly bleah which is how they should be given they are-or should be-force multipliers in any given engagement.
With the huge whine over speed fits (which I personally had no issue with given I was-and remain-known for flying with up to 4 webs onboard) the speed balance was introduced along with an excessive penalty to web-bonussed ships.
To take the Vagabond example-given that the role of the Minnie Recons is to slow them (and everything else for that matter) and DICTATE RANGE (key bit)...they simply cannot espcially when dealing with multiple targets. Remember key=force multiplier. A competent Vagabond pilot can currently overheat the MWD to speeds approaching 5km/s. 60% of 5km/s=roughly a crapload faster than a MWD'ing Rapier/Huginn.
Look..prior to the current state of affairs I would cheerfully pack triple webs and a flight of EWAR drones allowing me to web multiple targets and send EWAR around the battlefield as needed. Again...force multiplier.
While 90% webs were a bit overpowered...60% webs are underpowered given the role of the Minnie recons...and the failHyena. I am offering a compromise that is reasonable, balanced, and probably easy to implement for at least a test drive on SISI.
And chucking out comments like "fit a scrambler" is random silliness really. If you don't support the idea...state why you don't support it and leave it there and I'm sure your comments will be taken onboard by those that may actually read and find the proposal worth a second look.
Cheers
Bone
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Bunzan Cardinal
The Artists
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:48:00 -
[21]
supported
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Kandarus
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.07.17 18:11:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock, mazzilliu As for "2 webs being insufficient to slow down Vagabond", all you need is a warp scrambler.
I like my 40km range webs. ---------- so you need a team of arazu/lach and huginn/rapier to slow one ship down? ---------- Well you just need a ship with a warp scrambler. ---------- so you could just use a single ship, a rapier at 10km range?
rapiers are supposed to stop ships, and they aren't doing that right now. ---------- So you want a solo pwn-mobile? Its an MMO, why don't you team up with somebody? Warp scramblers were introduced for exactly this reason, to stop people! Webifiers only slow them down.
Supported!
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Aria Selenis
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:18:00 -
[23]
I'd support this.
The rapier is only capable of holding one ship at the moment, compared to an arazu which could damp 2-3 (or tackle 2-3), or especially the falcon which can jam several ships at once.
For a question of balance, look at the rapier and it's ability to be a force multiplier. Then look at the Falcon and it's ability to be a force multiplier.
Though, I must say, one web should be enough to keep up with a Vagabond; an overheating vaga with a single 60% web on will get to under 2k/second. Two webs and they won't break 1k..
But the fact that a ship could be limited to "only 900 m/s" when the complete attention of a recon designed to use webs to slow other ships is on it...
Dual webs on an interceptor will not even slow it below 1000...
Two 60% webs as of now: 16% speed remaining (before stacking factors)
75% webs with the proposed change: 6.25% speed remaining (before stacking).
Suddenly, stacking webs to stop a target becomes powerful and viable, while a single web is not overpowered again by buffing it to 90%.
Alternatively, more midslots please. |
AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.07.17 21:56:00 -
[24]
Edited by: AtheistOfDoom on 17/07/2009 22:04:34 Edited by: AtheistOfDoom on 17/07/2009 21:57:03 heres why this doesnt really work:
Quote:
20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount
pilgrim(amarr, allied with caldari) gets an effectiveness bonus.
Quote: 30% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
Falcon(caldari, allied with amarr) gets an effectiveness bonus.
Buuuut the gallente/minmatar get a range bonus instead.
Quote: 60% bonus to stasis webifier range
range bonus on rapier.
Quote:
20% bonus to warp disruptor range
range bonus on arazu.
---------------- Now if amarr/caldari recons (cloaky) get range bonuses I might support this. Pew Pew Lazorz!!! |
Yarik Mendel
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:20:00 -
[25]
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Aria Selenis
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom Things
Except you're forgetting the Curse, which is Amarr and gets both a range AND potency bonus.
Also the Falcon/Rook had a range bonus until it was nerfed very recently.
Clearly, CCP did not design the game around ship bonuses being based on who you're allied with.
By that logic, we should remove the arbitrator/curse/pilgrim's drone bonus because amarr are allied with caldari who are the enemy of the gallente who use drones, meaning it doesn't work to give amarr a drone ship. |
Lauren Sheaperd
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:38:00 -
[27]
Supported.
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Lightbringer
Highwaymen
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:54:00 -
[28]
Web effectiveness would proove usefull - Harmon |
Alyssa Eneas
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Posted - 2009.07.18 01:05:00 -
[29]
Supported.
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Lee Dalton
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.18 13:37:00 -
[30]
Supported. *** You're only as good as your last fight. |
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