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Fearghan
Primary Industries NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:28:00 -
[1]
Is there a consensus as to what the best t3 ship is for level 4 mission farming is?
Assuming skills and money aren't an issue, what would you fly? why?
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serenity Galltaki
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:40:00 -
[2]
A Marauder
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:48:00 -
[3]
Originally by: serenity Galltaki A Marauder
This.
T3 ships have no significant advantage for lvl 4 mission grinding. Their strength is versatility, not brute force. -------- Ideas for: Mining
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:59:00 -
[4]
Well, the Tengu is pretty damn good, if you know how to fit it. The others lack range to be efficient mission boats. ------------------------------------------
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GGjita
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:04:00 -
[5]
The tengu is prolly the most viable of all the T3 for mission running. It can basically do the same dps as the NH only ALL it's dps comes from missiles whereas the NH has to utilize drones.
I have one and all I use it for are serpentis missions. With the kinetic bonus you can get it up over 800 dps against BS's (T2 ammo) and over 650 against everything else. This is with a 500+ dps omni tank and moving at 660 m/s. The speed is really the only reason that i use this ship at all since some of the serp missions have the annoying gates and well going this fast with the dps makes those missions go a lot faster.
If you just wanna play around with the T3 in missions for fun then go for it, but if you really wanna run missions just use the marauder.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:10:00 -
[6]
Legion imo. It has about the same damage as a tengu against bs, but kills frigates twice as fast. It has less tank, but still plenty.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
girlyminer
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:24:00 -
[7]
Oh lord T3 cruisers suck for mission running when compared to Marauders or even T1 battleships.
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Ndauthina
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Posted - 2009.07.16 15:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: girlyminer Oh lord T3 cruisers suck for mission running when compared to Marauders or even T1 battleships.
You will not find a T1 BS that can out mission a T3 ship.
You will not find a Marauder that costs less than a T3 ship.
Reason enough?
You can get max skills in a T3 ships months before you are able to use a Marauder.
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hobo deluxe
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Posted - 2009.07.16 16:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: hobo deluxe on 16/07/2009 16:08:27
Originally by: Ndauthina
Originally by: girlyminer Oh lord T3 cruisers suck for mission running when compared to Marauders or even T1 battleships.
You will not find a T1 BS that can out mission a T3 ship.
You will not find a Marauder that costs less than a T3 ship.
Reason enough?
You can get max skills in a T3 ships months before you are able to use a Marauder.
What are you smoking? practically ANY t1 bs setup properly will outmission a t3 cruiser.
edit , well maybe not the scorpion =p
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achoura
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Posted - 2009.07.16 16:59:00 -
[10]
If all you want a t3 ship for is printing isk buy a legion and solo class 3 whs. By solo i mean kill/probe/salvage/hack all in a single ship. ***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
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Ndauthina
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Posted - 2009.07.16 17:06:00 -
[11]
Originally by: hobo deluxe Edited by: hobo deluxe on 16/07/2009 16:08:27
Originally by: Ndauthina
Originally by: girlyminer Oh lord T3 cruisers suck for mission running when compared to Marauders or even T1 battleships.
You will not find a T1 BS that can out mission a T3 ship.
You will not find a Marauder that costs less than a T3 ship.
Reason enough?
You can get max skills in a T3 ships months before you are able to use a Marauder.
What are you smoking? practically ANY t1 bs setup properly will outmission a t3 cruiser.
edit , well maybe not the scorpion =p
Name one...
Tengu: [Tengu, New Setup 2] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
10MN Afterburner II Medium Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Target Painter II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
631 DPS @ over 100km... 796 dps tank permarun 633m/s permarun smaller sig than any bs, faster lock than any bs, better against cruisers and frig than any bs...
Thats just a T2 fit. With faction and DS mods, you can push the upper limits of any golem or paladin fit as well. warp in, sit there and kill everything, warp out. Easy money.
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Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2009.07.16 18:45:00 -
[12]
Abaddon and Domi will outperform that against the correctÖ NPCs. And all Marauders simply outclass it due to the tractors. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.16 18:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: achoura If all you want a t3 ship for is printing isk buy a legion and solo class 3 whs. By solo i mean kill/probe/salvage/hack all in a single ship.
This is what t3 were made for honestly. They work passably in l4s, but they're nothing amazing. Well, that and pvp .
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.16 18:51:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ndauthina
Originally by: girlyminer Oh lord T3 cruisers suck for mission running when compared to Marauders or even T1 battleships.
You will not find a T1 BS that can out mission a T3 ship.
You will not find a Marauder that costs less than a T3 ship.
Reason enough?
You can get max skills in a T3 ships months before you are able to use a Marauder.
Few pop into my mind. CNR, Nightmare for a start. And well used Raven or Dominix or even Abbadon will give even Tengu something to think about when you look at average mission completion speed. Ie - it will be faster in some missions, but on the long run - if you want performance - use battleship for level 4.
If cost nor skills are issue go for Nightmare or Golem, if cost is issue go for CNR, if skills is issue go for Tengu
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.16 19:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ndauthina
Tengu: [Tengu, New Setup 2] ... Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile ... 631 DPS @ over 100km... 796 dps tank permarun 633m/s permarun smaller sig than any bs, faster lock than any bs, better against cruisers and frig than any bs...
Thats just a T2 fit. With faction and DS mods, you can push the upper limits of any golem or paladin fit as well. warp in, sit there and kill everything, warp out. Easy money.
Nice EFT number. Note however that "any golem or paladin" is using prolly torpedoes or tahyions. That is around 900 - 1000 dps range. Altho in the end EFT numbers do not run missions that well. In EFT any tier 1 combat BS can show you bigger number also (especially if one is using higher damage T2 ammo/Drones) but it does not mean it's going to be performing that well in real missions.
That out of the way nobody is saying that Tengu is bad for missionrunning. It is not - it's approx as good as Nighthawk, just a bit more agile. Nighthawk goes for what ... somewhere around 200 mil nowdays ? So if one want to use heavies in mission and passive tank then Nighthawk might be petter investment. If you want to run em gank style then good battleship will do more missions per hour than tengu. Especially if you consider that there is only few missions where you need to zip between gates and in those your opposition is rather feeble in the first place. Like The Score for example. Tengu is good. But it's not the best. Other T3 cruisers do not do that good in missions by looking at stats, but I'm not entirely sure as I have not tried them in actual missions.
Afterall in top end missionrunning it's not the tank that makes good missionrunner. Almost anything above T1 cruisers can mount enough tank with good skills to be able to do level 4 missions in one form or another. It's the question of doing damage after that tank that does a good missionrunner.
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Ghostfire
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Posted - 2009.07.17 12:04:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ghostfire on 17/07/2009 12:05:19
Originally by: girlyminer Oh lord T3 cruisers suck for mission running when compared to Marauders or even T1 battleships.
Absolute rubbish. T3 Cruisers specifically Tengu do not suck for mission running and I can run missions as quickly as in my CNR. I have a 2nd account to salvage and admitedly without that a Marauder would probably be quicker but not nearly as much fun. Its all about what you want. If you have a single account and have no intension of actually making your missions interesting then stick with a maruauder. If you want to do more that click F1 but still be efficient go with a Tengu.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.07.17 14:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Carniflex
Nice EFT number. Note however that "any golem or paladin" is using prolly torpedoes or tahyions. That is around 900 - 1000 dps range. Altho in the end EFT numbers do not run missions that well. In EFT any tier 1 combat BS can show you bigger number also (especially if one is using higher damage T2 ammo/Drones) but it does not mean it's going to be performing that well in real missions.
Maybe. A Tengu with Heavy Assault Missiles can post DPS numbers similar to Golem Torps and have equivalent ranges. I'd be curious as to whether the smaller explosion radius, faster explosion velocity, but no Target Painter HAMs perform as well as the Golem Target Painter boosted Torps.
HAM Tengu pros/cons: - HAM Tengu has no drones. Are T1 HAMs effective enough against frigates? - no slots (or just one) for salvagers and tractors. However, with the Tengu's much faster speed, fitting a salvager and flying to the wrecks is an option - Tengu has much smaller cargo capacity + Tengu is a smaller target + Tengu is muuuuuch faster, especially with AB bonus ? ammo costs? Tengu will fire 7.5 times the number of missiles than the Golem to achieve equivalent DPS. How much cheaper is HAM ammo? - Tengu's tank is great against Kin/Therm, but painfully weaker against EM/Therm (Sansha). Golem is pretty easy to tank for all occasions. However, how much damage will the Tengu's smaller size mitigate?
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2009.07.17 14:26:00 -
[18]
Tengu by far is the best, choosing that dmg type more than makes up for the killing smaller things faster (tho a TP helps enormsly)
you can cry about the exact numbers but you will never escape the fact that missions in a T3 are ALOT more fun.
and you play eve to have fun, why not have fun making isk
you...dont...hate fun... do you? *sidewaysface*
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Ndauthina
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Posted - 2009.07.17 15:04:00 -
[19]
ITT.
People who could not find T1 BS that can outperform the most basic Tengu setup... so they resort to Faction BS.
BTW, a Tengu is cheaper than a Nightmare. It also doesnt get crippled by Ewar like a Nightmare does. Your Golem might outdamage it, but it still sucks against Cruisers and Frigs. Golem max range is also about 60km, Tengu with Heavies is 113km. Tengu with HAMs will outdamage a Golem and I have many many mid slots to drop my tank to the level you undoubtably use in a 3TP golem, giving me room for webs or TP or whatever I want.
Missions where travel between gates is essential, Tengu does them in 1/3 the time. Face it, T3 is better than T1, and on par with T2. I would expect nothing less.
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Ndauthina
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Posted - 2009.07.17 15:10:00 -
[20]
[Tengu, New Setup 2 import 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
10MN Afterburner II Small Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Target Painter II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Here, basic 765 dps, 40km range perma run 465 dps tank, still 633m/s
These are fun to fly, and they are on par with a golem. Yes it cannot salvage on the run, but for blitz and bounty these are the thing to fly.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.17 15:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ndauthina
These are fun to fly, and they are on par with a golem. Yes it cannot salvage on the run, but for blitz and bounty these are the thing to fly.
They are certainly more fun to fly than bigger ships. Altho to be close enough to Golem it would need to be doing kin damage. Not a big problem in caldaryland, but can be slightly inconvinient at Amarr areas for example. Golem painter bonus will get negated by the fact that Tengu is already using smaller caliber ammo in first place.
As far as picking on the fact that I used CNR instead of T1 Raven, thats the stats I had at hand. Regular raven has exactly the same on paper dps than Golem btw while CNR indeed has 16% dps advantage on paper. In real mission however I have gut feeling Tengu would be slightly faster than regular Raven. When they were relased I did some test flights in real missions and got feeling Tengu is slightly slower on average than Golem or CNR. Then again those tests had quite wide error margin as I did not do too many of them - just enough to get some numbers to base opinion on.
And to the guys stating that Tengu is the best missionrunning platform. Feel free to provide some numbers to back up that claim. By numbers I do not mean EFT stats but actual mission completion times. Either from undock to dock times or if you prefer use "combat time" measure (that is easy to extract from logs after running several missions and what I myself use) then that. "Combat time" is from first agression in area (first shot fired, log starts automatically) to warpout from area (log stops automatically) or last agressive action taken in location. Show me the numbers and if they are good enough you will be finding me flying Tengus to do my missions quite soon. So far numbers I have seen have not been better than what one will get in battleship. Except of those few missions with long travel between gates.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:12:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ndauthina
People who could not find T1 BS that can outperform the most basic Tengu setup... so they resort to Faction BS.
Raven. 4x BCU II, 1x Co Pro II 1x XL T2 booster, 3x T2 hardener, 1x H cap injector II, 1x PWNAGE painter 6x Cruise II (Fury) , 3x Rigor I rigs 580 dps from missiles. 722 dps with 5x Vespa II drones.
Raven. 1xDG CPU, 1x Beta PDU, 2x BCU II, 1x Muon BCU 1x XL T2 booster, 2x T2 hardener, 1x T1/faction hardener, 1x H cap injector II, 1x PWNAGE painter 6x Siege II (T1 ammo), 2x Hydraulic bay 1x Rocket fuel rigs 745 dps from missiles. 889 dps with 5x Vespa II drones.
Granted in real missions, those EFT numbers dont do a lot. It just shows that on paper Raven can show better dps number than Tengu. That is why I somewhat dislike poking around with just some number. dps number is nice to get idea where it will stand in grand picture roughly but actual missions are somewhat more complex than just a dps vs tank number.
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Sturmwolke
Genyosha Legion
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Ndauthina
People who could not find T1 BS that can outperform the most basic Tengu setup... so they resort to Faction BS.
Granted in real missions, those EFT numbers dont do a lot. It just shows that on paper Raven can show better dps number than Tengu. That is why I somewhat dislike poking around with just some number. dps number is nice to get idea where it will stand in grand picture roughly but actual missions are somewhat more complex than just a dps vs tank number.
If you look at the paper DPS from missiles alone (w.r.t Raven vs Tengu against battleship size targets with T2 launchers), at max skill, the Raven wins over the Tengu in EM, Thermal and Explosive damage. The Tengu's offensive bonus for Kinetic damage type obviously has the Raven defeated. However, the Raven more than makes up for it with the additional dps from drones and the 2 extra high (if fitted with large ACs).
In terms of general versatility vs all NPC types, Raven is still king .... and the Dominix to a lesser extent. A sentry Domi with Garde II outputs the same comparable dps, just from its drones alone (turrets not included).
Tankwise, I think the Tengu has the edge even if EFT shows comparable dps tanked - due to it's smaller sig radius.
Still, it'll be interesting to see the real mission data though. Paper comparisons can only go so far.
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Ndauthina
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:54:00 -
[24]
Just ran Silence the Informant... Probably one of the worst missions to compare a Tengu in. Wrong damage types, close gates. Anyways, killed everything, from warp in to warp out: 17:34
Thats hardly anything to write home about. Next time I get GE or Gur Assault I will post times for that too.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.18 06:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ndauthina Just ran Silence the Informant... Probably one of the worst missions to compare a Tengu in. Wrong damage types, close gates. Anyways, killed everything, from warp in to warp out: 17:34
Thats hardly anything to write home about. Next time I get GE or Gur Assault I will post times for that too.
That is quite decent time. Also there is that 40 km trip in first stage also, it's just that there is enough to stuff to shoot at while wading that distance with battleship also. Good "benchmark" missions Would be propably something one can get in most locations. For example
The Attack of the Drones Gone Berzek Damsel in distress Silence the informant Pirate Invasion (not sure about that one, is there any other flavor than Sansha)
Extravaganzas and worlds collide are also quite balanced missions if one would be looking for just single mission to base benchmark on, as they have more or less even mix of big and small stuff across most distances one can encounter in missions, it's just that their flavor is region dependant. And gurista-serpentis one is somewhat easier than blood-angel one.
Ofc in the end most informative "benchmark" would be doing full list of missions offered in the area and then calculationg average missions/hour for that particular region and agent division. Downside is ofc that it's location specific.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.20 20:09:00 -
[26]
I got Silence the Informant. For test I ran it with solo Golem (usually I dual account), limiting myself to kinetic damage (it's on average quite reasonable actually in this mission). I used CN cruise missiles as I usually do.
Killing everything in first 2 stages and only target in last stage was 15 minutes 30 seconds. Killing also the sentries in last stage (that I usually just ingnore) resulted in end time of 18 minutes. This time I used stopwatch what I started after pressing warp button on first acceleration gate, not the usual extraction from combat log to be more precise.
One could do a bit better in there by using proper drones (I had random mix of T2 lights) and by doing manual fire distribution a bit better. So in Silence the Informant one can conclude that Tengu is approx as good as Golem (assuming the completion time reported is with killing last stage sentries also).
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 20:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ndauthina
Originally by: girlyminer Oh lord T3 cruisers suck for mission running when compared to Marauders or even T1 battleships.
You will not find a T1 BS that can out mission a T3 ship.
You will not find a Marauder that costs less than a T3 ship.
Reason enough?
You can get max skills in a T3 ships months before you are able to use a Marauder.
Good that I paied 650M isk on my marauder :) Wish I had bought a few more back then...
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.07.20 20:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Carniflex Golem
Originally by: Carniflex cruise missiles
I think you might have deeper problems to worry about than comparing to a tengu...
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Tahlma
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.20 20:35:00 -
[29]
People only seem to want to talk about the Tengu.
I'm very interested in doing lvl 4s in a HAM Legion. I know it won't be as good as my pali. But warp in-shoot-warp out is pretty dull.
My EFT legion tanks about 600-1000 DPS depending on rat type. And it deals about 500 DPS with navy missiles. But I have these 3 extra mid slots I don't know what to do with. Any suggestions? Do you think it's fit to take into some of the tougher missions?
EFT Legion Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Amarr Navy Hardener x3 Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System x3
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner empty med slot x3
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II x5
Nanobot Accelerator I Auxiliary Nano Pump I x2
Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.20 21:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega I think you might have deeper problems to worry about than comparing to a tengu...
Yes. But not in Silence the Informat. At first stage there is bunch of drones that need to be killed out at 90 km mark and in second stage there is also several of them at approx 90 km mark. Not to mention that while main target in last stage is starting at 70 km and getting closer reasonably fast the sentries (that I also killed altho they are not really needed) sit at up to 100 km. For dual accounting cruise is quite ok. I usually do that mission in approx 12 minutes when dual accounting.
If I would run solo ship on regular basis I would be swithing between torps and cruise depending on mission I get. Refitting is nowdays just one clik anyway.
Comparison to Tengu was just bcos there was Tengu time posted for it.
And for Legion 3 unused mids. Painter or two and sensor booster perhaps ? While you propably are already more or less ok with missile signature painting negates quite good portion of damage reduction from high speed. Dunno from top of my head HAM explosion velocity, but it is not propably too high.
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