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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.16 18:51:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Ndauthina
Originally by: girlyminer Oh lord T3 cruisers suck for mission running when compared to Marauders or even T1 battleships.
You will not find a T1 BS that can out mission a T3 ship.
You will not find a Marauder that costs less than a T3 ship.
Reason enough?
You can get max skills in a T3 ships months before you are able to use a Marauder.
Few pop into my mind. CNR, Nightmare for a start. And well used Raven or Dominix or even Abbadon will give even Tengu something to think about when you look at average mission completion speed. Ie - it will be faster in some missions, but on the long run - if you want performance - use battleship for level 4.
If cost nor skills are issue go for Nightmare or Golem, if cost is issue go for CNR, if skills is issue go for Tengu
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.16 19:07:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Ndauthina
Tengu: [Tengu, New Setup 2] ... Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile ... 631 DPS @ over 100km... 796 dps tank permarun 633m/s permarun smaller sig than any bs, faster lock than any bs, better against cruisers and frig than any bs...
Thats just a T2 fit. With faction and DS mods, you can push the upper limits of any golem or paladin fit as well. warp in, sit there and kill everything, warp out. Easy money.
Nice EFT number. Note however that "any golem or paladin" is using prolly torpedoes or tahyions. That is around 900 - 1000 dps range. Altho in the end EFT numbers do not run missions that well. In EFT any tier 1 combat BS can show you bigger number also (especially if one is using higher damage T2 ammo/Drones) but it does not mean it's going to be performing that well in real missions.
That out of the way nobody is saying that Tengu is bad for missionrunning. It is not - it's approx as good as Nighthawk, just a bit more agile. Nighthawk goes for what ... somewhere around 200 mil nowdays ? So if one want to use heavies in mission and passive tank then Nighthawk might be petter investment. If you want to run em gank style then good battleship will do more missions per hour than tengu. Especially if you consider that there is only few missions where you need to zip between gates and in those your opposition is rather feeble in the first place. Like The Score for example. Tengu is good. But it's not the best. Other T3 cruisers do not do that good in missions by looking at stats, but I'm not entirely sure as I have not tried them in actual missions.
Afterall in top end missionrunning it's not the tank that makes good missionrunner. Almost anything above T1 cruisers can mount enough tank with good skills to be able to do level 4 missions in one form or another. It's the question of doing damage after that tank that does a good missionrunner.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.17 15:40:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ndauthina
These are fun to fly, and they are on par with a golem. Yes it cannot salvage on the run, but for blitz and bounty these are the thing to fly.
They are certainly more fun to fly than bigger ships. Altho to be close enough to Golem it would need to be doing kin damage. Not a big problem in caldaryland, but can be slightly inconvinient at Amarr areas for example. Golem painter bonus will get negated by the fact that Tengu is already using smaller caliber ammo in first place.
As far as picking on the fact that I used CNR instead of T1 Raven, thats the stats I had at hand. Regular raven has exactly the same on paper dps than Golem btw while CNR indeed has 16% dps advantage on paper. In real mission however I have gut feeling Tengu would be slightly faster than regular Raven. When they were relased I did some test flights in real missions and got feeling Tengu is slightly slower on average than Golem or CNR. Then again those tests had quite wide error margin as I did not do too many of them - just enough to get some numbers to base opinion on.
And to the guys stating that Tengu is the best missionrunning platform. Feel free to provide some numbers to back up that claim. By numbers I do not mean EFT stats but actual mission completion times. Either from undock to dock times or if you prefer use "combat time" measure (that is easy to extract from logs after running several missions and what I myself use) then that. "Combat time" is from first agression in area (first shot fired, log starts automatically) to warpout from area (log stops automatically) or last agressive action taken in location. Show me the numbers and if they are good enough you will be finding me flying Tengus to do my missions quite soon. So far numbers I have seen have not been better than what one will get in battleship. Except of those few missions with long travel between gates.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:12:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ndauthina
People who could not find T1 BS that can outperform the most basic Tengu setup... so they resort to Faction BS.
Raven. 4x BCU II, 1x Co Pro II 1x XL T2 booster, 3x T2 hardener, 1x H cap injector II, 1x PWNAGE painter 6x Cruise II (Fury) , 3x Rigor I rigs 580 dps from missiles. 722 dps with 5x Vespa II drones.
Raven. 1xDG CPU, 1x Beta PDU, 2x BCU II, 1x Muon BCU 1x XL T2 booster, 2x T2 hardener, 1x T1/faction hardener, 1x H cap injector II, 1x PWNAGE painter 6x Siege II (T1 ammo), 2x Hydraulic bay 1x Rocket fuel rigs 745 dps from missiles. 889 dps with 5x Vespa II drones.
Granted in real missions, those EFT numbers dont do a lot. It just shows that on paper Raven can show better dps number than Tengu. That is why I somewhat dislike poking around with just some number. dps number is nice to get idea where it will stand in grand picture roughly but actual missions are somewhat more complex than just a dps vs tank number.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.18 06:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ndauthina Just ran Silence the Informant... Probably one of the worst missions to compare a Tengu in. Wrong damage types, close gates. Anyways, killed everything, from warp in to warp out: 17:34
Thats hardly anything to write home about. Next time I get GE or Gur Assault I will post times for that too.
That is quite decent time. Also there is that 40 km trip in first stage also, it's just that there is enough to stuff to shoot at while wading that distance with battleship also. Good "benchmark" missions Would be propably something one can get in most locations. For example
The Attack of the Drones Gone Berzek Damsel in distress Silence the informant Pirate Invasion (not sure about that one, is there any other flavor than Sansha)
Extravaganzas and worlds collide are also quite balanced missions if one would be looking for just single mission to base benchmark on, as they have more or less even mix of big and small stuff across most distances one can encounter in missions, it's just that their flavor is region dependant. And gurista-serpentis one is somewhat easier than blood-angel one.
Ofc in the end most informative "benchmark" would be doing full list of missions offered in the area and then calculationg average missions/hour for that particular region and agent division. Downside is ofc that it's location specific.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.20 20:09:00 -
[6]
I got Silence the Informant. For test I ran it with solo Golem (usually I dual account), limiting myself to kinetic damage (it's on average quite reasonable actually in this mission). I used CN cruise missiles as I usually do.
Killing everything in first 2 stages and only target in last stage was 15 minutes 30 seconds. Killing also the sentries in last stage (that I usually just ingnore) resulted in end time of 18 minutes. This time I used stopwatch what I started after pressing warp button on first acceleration gate, not the usual extraction from combat log to be more precise.
One could do a bit better in there by using proper drones (I had random mix of T2 lights) and by doing manual fire distribution a bit better. So in Silence the Informant one can conclude that Tengu is approx as good as Golem (assuming the completion time reported is with killing last stage sentries also).
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.20 21:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega I think you might have deeper problems to worry about than comparing to a tengu...
Yes. But not in Silence the Informat. At first stage there is bunch of drones that need to be killed out at 90 km mark and in second stage there is also several of them at approx 90 km mark. Not to mention that while main target in last stage is starting at 70 km and getting closer reasonably fast the sentries (that I also killed altho they are not really needed) sit at up to 100 km. For dual accounting cruise is quite ok. I usually do that mission in approx 12 minutes when dual accounting.
If I would run solo ship on regular basis I would be swithing between torps and cruise depending on mission I get. Refitting is nowdays just one clik anyway.
Comparison to Tengu was just bcos there was Tengu time posted for it.
And for Legion 3 unused mids. Painter or two and sensor booster perhaps ? While you propably are already more or less ok with missile signature painting negates quite good portion of damage reduction from high speed. Dunno from top of my head HAM explosion velocity, but it is not propably too high.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.21 20:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cerebus Alteri
and as pointed out if a mission has ecm your maruader is skrewd blockade being a prime example with ecm hacs that will have your effective targeting range nerfed down to about 22k, and drones take forever to down the 250k hacs in that mission.
I assume you mean tracking disruption, that Sanshas do, not ECM. ECM is what guristas do - makes you lose all locks and be unable to lock anything for 20 seconds. And ofc NPC's cheat so relatively low sensor str of marauders has no effect on NPC ECM, as they just ignore your sensors and just roll dice.
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