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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
Sali Ladoon
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:56:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Tanhar Thanks to bug and old mirror I couldn't try new probing, but, based on other posts, can we say that:
- signal acquisition skill - specialized astrometrics ships bonuses - sister's launcher bonus - implant bonus
are for all practical purposes deleted from the game ?
no these skills gets changed to whatever ccp thinks will be the best |
rubico1337
Caldari nefarious badgers inc
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:59:00 -
[152]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists What i noticed is, with the very small scanning duration the cov ops bonus is not much worth anymore. More important tho, with triangulation making bms for dropping probes is a must, and the very fast warp speed of the cov ops makes that very frustrating.
The covert ops is going to get its bonus changed, as will several skills and all the rigs and implants.
thank you thank you, i really thought that my sig acquisition V would have gone to waist on an extra 2 sec scan time
there are people out there that have made exploration a profession, please ont make the skills go to waist |
Mskpath3
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Posted - 2009.02.10 01:04:00 -
[153]
Oh God, it's the return of the POS module movement widgets. Oy.
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Tanhar
Gallente Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2009.02.10 01:05:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Tanhar on 10/02/2009 01:10:03 Edited by: Tanhar on 10/02/2009 01:08:42 Edited by: Tanhar on 10/02/2009 01:06:32
Originally by: Sali Ladoon
Originally by: Tanhar Thanks to bug and old mirror I couldn't try new probing, but, based on other posts, can we say that:
- signal acquisition skill - specialized astrometrics ships bonuses - sister's launcher bonus - implant bonus
are for all practical purposes deleted from the game ?
no these skills gets changed to whatever ccp thinks will be the best
I sincerely hope so, just.. I don't see nothing in current mechanics, what can be additionally boosted to compensate so much of lost bonuses...
Update: widget's dragging speed maybe ? (failed joke)
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.10 01:20:00 -
[155]
any eta on the test server up again |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.10 01:39:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Mskpath3 Oh God, it's the return of the POS module movement widgets. Oy.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Anything anything but this!
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Tanhar
Gallente Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2009.02.10 01:43:00 -
[157]
As for the skills with unsure future.. does it makes sense to use more than 4 probes in current mechanics ? I.e., what astrometrics skill will be good for (assuming the bug will not stay forever, ofc )
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.02.10 02:23:00 -
[158]
I guess its little to late to suggest a 'sweeper' variant.
Larger the scan area the slower the 'sweep' when a sweep hits over possible areas it highlight the area with a low resolution hit with false positives.
Involve more probes and/or better skills youll get a better resolution, rule out 'false postivies.'
Pings however have a life span and fade back out when not sweeped, this is where multiple probes help out as they can keep the results pinging back to the sensor ship as he coordinates and lowers the scan range which increases sweep speeds and resolution.
The long range sweeps are likely to lose the signal return from the sweeps where the shorter range onces can continue to refresh the signal return on possible sites.
Makes the player more active in finding sites, allows skills to transfer over better (faster sweep/scan time, s, better resolution/devaition removing false postivie/strength)
This also builds on the compounding success which is a good way to reward players instead of fustrate them.
But not sure what you guys are capable of or going for. =============
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
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FeralShadow
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 02:28:00 -
[159]
Edited by: FeralShadow on 10/02/2009 02:29:15 Listen.. I can definately see why you would want to change ship (pvp)probing the way you have. However, let's be honest. People aren't going to stop making safe spots to hide in. I dare say this is a habit that will take a very long time to change, if ever. Low probing times is really the only way of finding targets that are within a system and even then 90% of the time they simply warp out. Let's look at it this way: When is it viable to actually get an engagement? #1 They have to stay in one spot. You cannot engage someone who warps. #2 They have to be in range. You cannot keep them from warping out (see #1) unless you're at least within warp disruption range. So not only do you have to have someone cloaked on grid with the person, he has to manage to get close enough to the person to be a warp-in point for the tackle, and this also takes valuable time with which the target may very well get spooked and warp out, at which point you have to start all over again. #3 You cannot engage anybody who warps to station. As soon as they see you in system (i'm talking empire here) they become tense and on edge, ready to warp at the first provocation. So you have to get them before they get spooked and warp to a station.
We all take these as facts. And given all these, it's amazing you sometimes get the engagements that you do; it is far easier to run from a fight than it is to find people to fight. Getting in there and getting this set up is far more difficult than people might think. If you throw in alt scouts in the surrounding systems for the person/people you're hunting, than the chances of an engagement go down to 2% if even that. Throw in cloaking devices and you're now down to 0.5% chance for a fight. If anything, make probing even more quick and efficient, forcing safe spots to be worthless. I'd gladly accept knowing that my own safe spots are worthless.
-FeralShadow _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura -CDS Now Taking Contracts-
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Halada
Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 02:33:00 -
[160]
Suggestions: -If possible, camera control needs to be changed. Allow the view to be locked on anomalies scanned so we can rotate the camera around it for easier placement. -Reduce the size of the boxes -Change Signal Acquisition for 10% strength bonus -Change Covert Op Bonus to 10% strength bonus -Astrometrics +1 probe per level -Change Triangulation skill so that the higher the skill the more info you get out of scanning wormholes (the total mass before collapse will be more precise maybe) ... -Change Astrometric pinpoiting to decrease probes signature (so if you probe for players and he scans hes not likely to pick them up)
Since really the only important thing is the signal strength now, everything that helped reduce the speed of scanning needs to change for a strength bonus (rigs, implants, etc...). Truth be told the 4.6mil SP trained to get astrometic triangulation, pinpointing and signal acquisition will mean a huge loss whatever you do to change them. Thats 70 days of training you won't be able to make truly worthwhile now that you changed the entire system.
I look forward to try the probing again without the insanely annoying warping timer tbh. Will make it a lot less frustrating and stressful.
★ LSJV now recruiting ★ |
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.02.10 02:37:00 -
[161]
Could it be possible we get a double post 3d movement similar to homeworld RTS game? one click sets the 2d position drag realtive up or down and click agian for the 3d point directly above or below a probe.
Also I havent been able to use scanning myself due ot astro 4 but it seems there is no longer a list of probes deployed, can we get this back? =============
Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
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Avalira
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum
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Posted - 2009.02.10 03:08:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Halada Suggestions: -If possible, camera control needs to be changed. Allow the view to be locked on anomalies scanned so we can rotate the camera around it for easier placement. -Reduce the size of the boxes
<snip>
Since really the only important thing is the signal strength now, everything that helped reduce the speed of scanning needs to change for a strength bonus (rigs, implants, etc...). Truth be told the 4.6mil SP trained to get astrometic triangulation, pinpointing and signal acquisition will mean a huge loss whatever you do to change them. Thats 70 days of training you won't be able to make truly worthwhile now that you changed the entire system.
I look forward to try the probing again without the insanely annoying warping timer tbh. Will make it a lot less frustrating and stressful.
This.
However: - Astrometrics -- level 1 = 1 probe -- level 2 = 2 probes -- level 3 = 4 probes -- level 4 = 8 probes -- level 5 = 16 probes
16 Probes!? You're probably thinking I'm mad. Yes and no, having more probes means I can scan down multiple sites at once or scan down those extremely hard to find sites that might require 9+ probes at 0.25 AU and max skills. It gives a real meaning to spend the time required to train this skill.
In general, with exploration, skills should give an exponential benefit (like some trading skills) with the level if the linear benefit isn't enough. I still think that the old bonuses could still apply if used with an exponential benefit. For instance:
Astrometrics pinpointing: Old bonus = Reduces maximum scan deviation by 10% per level. New Bonus = First level reduced the maximum scan deviation by 6.25% and each consequent level doubles the previous (level 2 = 12.5% reduction, level 3 = 25%, level 4 = 50% and level 5 100% reduction). This is particularly useful if there is a deviation in results (some dev did mention there will be, can't remember where). It is also useful if the time to find the site is increased by a longer scanning time.
Astrometrics triangulation: Old bonus = Increases scan strength by 5% per level. New bonus = Increase it to 10% per level Basically it means that sites will be found with a bigger signal strength, allowing you to find them faster.
Signal Acquisition: Keep the same bonus but increase the scanning time to what it was before. I don't see why this had to be reduced to 10 seconds. Keep it at the 10 minutes base and let our skills, ship and rigs reduce that time like it did before. Since the scanning time can be added to the probe and not the scanner, combat probes for pvp can still be reduced so that it is possible to find a ship in under 30s. Core probes could have the 10 minute base timer and combat probes a 1 minute base timer.
All in all I really like this new system. Good job so far
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Its been fixed. All in all its one of the more embarrassing mistakes I made, but it made game design laugh. Now lets never speak of this again.
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Illioe
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Posted - 2009.02.10 04:00:00 -
[163]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
It's not chance-based any more so mashing the button isn't going to help, I'm afraid.
I love you! |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.10 04:35:00 -
[164]
Astrometrics probnes out
level 1 = 2 level 2 = 4 level 3 is 6 4-8 5=10
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Jenny Law
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Posted - 2009.02.10 05:17:00 -
[165]
it might be already somewhere here. but ill ask anyway.
the exploration probes are now gone and you got just one probe to use. before you had the mulitspectral probe to get the info, is it worth probing more in this system or not.
how do you get that info now? or do you need to set 4au probes at every planet and probe on a chance based theory and hope you get a result and then start triangulate the result that you got?
if so that means it can take several scanns just to find if the system contains something or not and you might give up before you get the first hit thinking that there was nothing in the system.
i would just like a confirm or something on this function so that we know what to expect. thx :)
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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.10 05:37:00 -
[166]
When is server coming back up? |
Karox Lominax
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Posted - 2009.02.10 06:53:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Karox Lominax on 10/02/2009 06:56:22
Originally by: Jenny Law it might be already somewhere here. but ill ask anyway.
the exploration probes are now gone and you got just one probe to use. before you had the mulitspectral probe to get the info, is it worth probing more in this system or not.
how do you get that info now? or do you need to set 4au probes at every planet and probe on a chance based theory and hope you get a result and then start triangulate the result that you got?
if so that means it can take several scanns just to find if the system contains something or not and you might give up before you get the first hit thinking that there was nothing in the system.
i would just like a confirm or something on this function so that we know what to expect. thx :)
Your long range probes (theres 2 varients, a generic long range and a generic short range) can scan up to 64au I think from what I've seen, and they are guaranteed to find at least a weak signal if theres something in the system, which is then located by using triangulation of multiple probes.
If the system is larger than 64AU im presuming you need to use multiple 'long range' probes to cover the entire area of space before you work on the located sites.
Note theres no such thing as a 4au probe anymore, all probes have variable sizes, seems the long range probes can do 1au (I think) to 64au, and the short range probes can do up to 0.25 AU with obviously higher strength to get a complete fix on the spot when your longer range probes wont correctly identify the site.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.10 07:10:00 -
[168]
but quicker probing time, i can see the system getting some minor tweaks but going thro as is, just means u need to relearn it
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DeepBlue
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 07:21:00 -
[169]
Edited by: DeepBlue on 10/02/2009 07:25:29
Originally by: ollobrains2 but quicker probing time, i can see the system getting some minor tweaks but going thro as is, just means u need to relearn it
im not sure if i will be quicker finding exploration sites with the new system.
what i know for sure, scanning down ships will take much longer now. with old system i entered system, dropped a spook and 23 secs later i had a result and could warp to it.
now with new system it allready takes 40 secs to get all the probes out i need! how are you supposed to be faster?!
sum up: + 40 secs to get my probes out + 10 secs to change scan range on probes + 30 secs to place probes + 10 secsfor probes warping around + 2 secs for the scanning
= 92 secs for the first scan
then i have to start over + 10 secs to set probes at 0.25 au + 30 secs replacing all the probes for a .25 au hit + 10 secs for probes warping around + 2 secs for scanning = 52 secs
grand total of 144 secs to find a ship vs. the 23 secs i have now!!! |
Sprobe
Jagdkommando RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 07:47:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Sprobe on 10/02/2009 07:47:04 I have written a post about the user interface for moving the scan probes on system map.
So far feedback is really good and someone suggested I should post it in here, since it is concerning the new scanning process.
In short: The box+arrows interface is really not very usable. Instead of clicking on arrows please make it possible to - left click on the box, and while left mouse button is pressed, move the box on the current plane along the mouse's x-y-axis ("left, right, towards you, away from you") - right click on the box, and while right mouse button is pressed, move the box along the 3rd dimension following the mouse's y-axis ("up and down") - let the camera follow the box (box is always centered on screen)
My original thread is here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=994981
It would be wonderful if you could consider this.
Best wishes Sprobe never to old to play |
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Miss Moonwych
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Posted - 2009.02.10 07:48:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 10/02/2009 07:52:20
This is for the Devs.
I think there is a fundamental (scaling) problem with the current way of scanning, even if deviation is introduced.
Lets say there are 5 types of sites to find: level 0 through level 4. What you probably want is something like this (time to find the site):
level 0: 5 mins level 1: 10 mins level 2: 20 mins level 3: 40 mins level 4: 80 mins
However since the "algorithm" a player has to go through now is of the complexity type O(log2 n) you will never get that (2^n) kind of result unless you lower the signature size of the site so low that the smallest range scanners cannot pick it up (which already seems to be the problem). So a different change to the system is needed to achieve the above.
Basicly it now takes log2 n steps to find something (each step is a re-deployment of the probes and a scan) where n is a measure of the targets hardness to find. With each step you currently have to be able to move to at least one smaller range probe setting (otherwise you're stuck). This means that the total amount of steps is limited by the amount of possible scan ranges. And because lowering the signature size of the target drastically isn't really an options there are only a few options I think:
- Raising scanning time (as opposed to the number of steps) when dealing with lower signature sized targets. For example: being able to double the precision of a probe while sacrificing the scan time (by also doubling it). So with lower signature size targets you will be forced to use longer scanning time in order to move a step further (= scan range divided by 2).
- Raising the numbers of steps needed when dealing with lower signature sized targets. Basicly adding more in-between ranges to the probes so you will have to use more ranges to get to your target (if its sig is low).
Will still have to see how it works when SiSi gets back up, but I think you will have to address this issue.
Regards,
M.M.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.10 08:57:00 -
[172]
I KNOW this has been mentioned before, but these two things really need to be looked over for the final build:
- Probes get "used" and cannot be repackaged in space. This causes you to have to load them 1 and 1 into the launcher. VEEERY annoying. (A dev said they can be repackaged in station, but I have yet to succeed in doing that. "Repackage" doesn't show in the context menu for the probes)
- Moving probe widgets need a graphical AND practical change. The widgets are way too large and obstructive. They hide other nearby probes with their bulk and touching the arrows can be annoying at best when there's many probes nearby.
- Their movement mechanic should be changed also. Trying to hit that particular arrow (before the damn things start warping around) in a cluster of 8 probes is REALLY tricky, and you usually end up touching the edge of another probe and start changing it's size. Just make the probes into their icons, let them be moved by clicking and dragging in the X/Y plane, use shift+click to move them in the Z plane. -----
EVE is a PvP game. Adaptation is your survival. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.10 09:06:00 -
[173]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Dragossin There seems to be a problem with the conversion from old scan probe launchers to the new ones.
All scan probe launcher I's and recon probe launcher I's i had turned into expanded probe launcher I's (same for the SOE launchers). From what i read here the old scan probe launcher I's should have turned into core probe launcher I's?
This is how I intended it to work originally; I'm not sure why that doesn't match up with the patchnotes... The logic is that any ship which has a current launcher fitted has enough CPU to fit the expanded launcher, and at that point why would you want the less-capable core one? It's something we could change (if I buy Prism X some chocolate), but I think the current change makes more sense personally.
Ack! Please don't convert my sisters recon launcher into an expanded! There are several combat ships I use that have an empty utility high and nothing to put in it past an autotargeter. The sisters core launcher would be a perfect fit and needed insurance if the probe ship gets iced in w-space!
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
DeepBlue
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 09:14:00 -
[174]
here an idea for the probe moving.
you can change there position like it is now. but they dont move/warp as long as you dont doubleclick on a empty place on map.
double-click will activate all the probes to warp to its position.
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Neddy Fox
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.10 09:17:00 -
[175]
Looked at all the pictures and movies, and must say it takes more brains, which is good.
HOWEVER : do NOT make hard plexes easier to find ! People complaining that they can't get a result over 80% after trying for half an hour have never ever tried to pin down a 10/10 (which can take 6 MANHOURS now). It MUST stay this hard, or every joker with a scanner will find it. Reward the covert pilots, and reward the people wanting to spend time on something that others discard as too hard !
As for ship scanning : I'm one of the hunters, when gangs get destroyed, and we want to find the people not willing to leave system, and keep warping safespots. It is HARD to get near safespotters right now, esp. if they use a ceptor buring into nothing at 5k /s (Closest I can get to him is 30 x 5 = 150k off him)
The new system will virtually make it impossible to pin them down. Also, the results MUST show shiptypes like it does now, w/e the range is.
Q for the devs : What about our system scanning arrays? What's going to happen with them?
---- [PXIN Recruiter]
PXIN Recruitement thread |
Gomme Arabi
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Posted - 2009.02.10 09:21:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Neddy Fox Q for the devs : What about our system scanning arrays? What's going to happen with them?
Good Question. |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.10 09:27:00 -
[177]
ship scanning arrays in 0.0 systems ? |
DeepBlue
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 09:28:00 -
[178]
Edited by: DeepBlue on 10/02/2009 09:28:45
Originally by: Neddy Fox
HOWEVER : do NOT make hard plexes easier to find ! People complaining that they can't get a result over 80% after trying for half an hour have never ever tried to pin down a 10/10 (which can take 6 MANHOURS now).
then come to S-EVIQ and try to find that bugger wich wont give me more the 79.5%, with 8 probes covering it. :-)
and a 10/10 plex i find in under 15 mins (if its in system ofc), with the old system. |
Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 09:33:00 -
[179]
With all the negative replies I wanted to throw in that I love the new system for sites (not so much for probing down ships as it's basically impossible again :P). Much more involved than the old system, that meant alt-tabbing out and doing something else for 90% of the probing time, which could be hours in some cases.
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DeepBlue
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 09:39:00 -
[180]
feature request:
selecting all probes with shift, right clicking and changing scan range should apply to all probes.
bug: scan range of probe only can be changed, when map is open. |
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