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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.08 13:30:00 -
[1]
Originally by: CCP Whisper Hello, My name is Arend Stnhrmann, also known as CCP Whisper, and I am the producer in charge of the project bringing EVE Online to the Mac and Linux operating systems. As you may know, we have been working in partnership with Transgaming Technologies, utilizing their Cider engine to allow EVE Online to run on the Mac OS and their Cedega engine to enable operation under Linux. This project went live in late 2007 and in that time we have seen the same slow, steady growth in the numbers of users of the Mac client that has characterized the growth of EVE Online throughout its history. However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client. It is for this reason that I am sorry to have to announce that from the 10th of March onwards CCP will no longer be officially supporting the Linux operating system. The low amount of users of the Linux client did not justify the degree of additional complexity having three operating systems imposes on our development and release schedules. There is the matter of maintaining the hardware infrastructure to facilitate the development work, spending man-hours on testing and diagnosing faults in the client as well as regression testing. While we did embark on this project with the aim of being one of the few MMOG’s on the market offering a game client for all of the major operating system architectures, we feel that the time and resources that were being spent on the Linux client would be better utilized in areas where more players would benefit from them. I would like to thank you for your past support of our efforts to bring EVE to the Linux OS. The feedback and commitment we obtained from players like you helped both CCP and Transgaming with our attempts to improve on the quality and stability of the client. Many of us in CCP use Linux and are convinced of its merits as an operating system. Should you wish to continue playing EVE Online under Linux there are several options available. Some of these are free and some require purchase of software. A selection of these is at the bottom of this e-mail along with basic instructions on how to use EVE Online through them. If you wish to stop playing EVE Online and want to request a refund of unused game time, please contact our billing department by filing a petition in the billing category. They will assist you in obtaining a refund for the remaining game time and closing your account. Again, thank-you for your support, Arend Stnhrmann
Guess it was expected. Now, time to make Wine work flawlessly :D
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Neylan
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Posted - 2009.02.08 13:39:00 -
[2]
wine is not going to help you.
without the need to take care of implementations not running with their linux client wine will have trouble running EvE with all their new goodies like ShaderModel 3.0 or whatever they are coming up with WoS. They can push for new technology at the cost of linux compatibility. You don't need a calculator to do the math.
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Lorinator
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Posted - 2009.02.08 13:51:00 -
[3]
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
That's because the official client sucked so much everyone just used wine instead. Sad. |
Niron Werls
Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.08 13:56:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Neylan Edited by: Neylan on 08/02/2009 13:40:39 wine is not going to help you.
i am a linux only user and feel sad about the decission.
I am also linux only user, and while it was promising to have some sort of "official" support, I still ended up using wine only because it just worked better. Considering how much better overall it worked, I don't really think wine is not going to help you is a valid statement since without any official help they still ended up making eve run better than the official client ever did ( for me, your experience may differ ).
I hope the forum stays even though the cedega client will not be. It can still be useful.
I dont really have any personal feelings about this decision since I cant imagine it will change anything, even long term. There might be a short period where things do not work that well, but i expect it will be fixed quickly with wine. It always has been before.
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Crimson Calis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.08 13:59:00 -
[5]
Atleast now they are telling us something - a bit better then being quiet. Still, there could come a moment when EVE becomes unplayable under Wine - though the Wine community seems a bit more responcive than Cedega. Sad here also, but business is business. |
Disteeler
Segunda Fundacion Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.08 13:59:00 -
[6]
Wine is way better. I just hope this forum is not closed down. |
Taita Sion
Gallente Transcendents of New Eden
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:02:00 -
[7]
I am a Linux user. Now that's out of the way.
I was over the moon when I first heard Eve was going to release a Linux client, however, personally, I don't use it. Instead I use WINE so I can run of the Premium graphics, which works very well. I now fear that by not adopting the Linux Client, I have contributed to support being dropped, and that the Eve client will move in directions which destroy Eve's Gold status with WINE.
Whilst I can understand CCP being unable to officially support Linux, I do hope they continue to consider us when developing future clients to help maintain Eve's Gold status with WINE.
Taita. |
Parifactor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:21:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lorinator
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
That's because the official client sucked so much everyone just used wine instead. Sad.
Exactly. |
Esme Nomarra
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:24:00 -
[9]
I'm a Linux user, tried the so-called 'Linux client' and it was so poor that I also prefered running the Windows client via Wine instead, when I could get it running. Currently I have the so-called 'Linux client' running, after I had to do a rebuild of my PC and found I couldn't get the Windows version to install properly under Wine and didn't have time to delve into why just then.
Whilst under the current economic climate the decision may on the face of it be understandable, I am deeply saddened by CCP going with a Transgaming bodge in the first place (they're notoriously unresponsive to their customers, which is why I stopped using their service ages ago), and further, persisting with it even when it was obvious that Transgaming did not do a good job of it.
Cross-platform is the way to go, and that means using open standards - like OpenGL, rather than DirectX. If it becomes the case that EVE is no longer playable on Linux, then I will simply find another game to play, I will NOT being buying a copy of Windows again, because Microsoft have proven many times over that they cannot be relied upon to provide a stable,s ecure and easy to use product nor can they be trusted not to invade the privacy of their users. I can and have used commercial versions of Linux, and may do so again - the cost of the OS is not the issue (within reason), it's the quality of the product and the attitude of the supplier that is important to me.
So please bear in mind, CCP - if you take EVE down a route that makes it difficult to run via Wine or one of the other 'Windows on Linux' routes (aside from Cedega, of course - also no longer an option unless they pull their fingers out and improve their service), then you'll likely lose your Linux customer base altogether. You could at least try to make your Windows code as friendly as possible to being run on other OS's.
Esme (pondering whether EVE might be got to run on Reactos, when that hits beta). |
Flavien Potier
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:32:00 -
[10]
Same thing here, I was running my 3 accounts under wine since the "official" client was so bad.
No wonder why they didn't saw clients growt with the packaged linux "client".
Anyway, I cancelled all of my 3 accounts in reply to this news. |
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CottageCheese Discharge
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:33:00 -
[11]
I think it'd make more sense if they simply said "We're not going to support the official client" instead of "we're not going to support Linux". Obviously their PR folks didn't read into the implications of the former.
I'd rather see them openly support Wine development, since as everyone mentions it ran 100x worse. |
Zenologic
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:35:00 -
[12]
i use linux. this statement has an obvious explanation: "However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client." its because the linux client sucks and most linux users use wine instead. disappointing. |
WheatGrass
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:38:00 -
[13]
This is a great way to dump the Cedega client -which sucked. Like the earlier posts, Wine is better. Once Cedega is out of the way let's hope that linux support will be revisited. |
Aurix Lexico
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:42:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Aurix Lexico on 08/02/2009 14:41:54 I have to admit, I started laughing when I read "and are convinced of its merits as an operating system."
Anyways, where did you get that? I've been looking for the original and haven't found it. |
Jat Friesch
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:42:00 -
[15]
I basically started playing EVE just because of the linux support. I had previously been playing World of Warcraft in Wine, but a recent update caused some mouse cursor problems and the devs just said, "quit using OpenGL mode. It's just for testing, not for actual playing." It sucks to be the minority and to just be ignored.
I had heard EVE had a linux client a while ago, and figured I'd give it a try. While this news is not surprising, it is saddening. Wine is an awesome piece of software, and has come such a long way since I first started using linux, but the possible problems you can experience are pretty vast and setup can be daunting.
It seems CCP probably wouldn't drop support if they knew that everything was going to work fine (or at least the same) on March 10th. Maybe I'm wrong, but I bet it won't work come the 11th. |
Tola
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2009.02.08 14:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
That's just because that client is crap :/ I think there are a lot of ppl running EvE on Linux, but there are not many wich are using the Cedega client. Please keep atleast the Forum. |
Katrina Bekers
Gallente Hikage Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.08 15:00:00 -
[17]
I guess it's just CCP acknowledging their own failtrain.
Their "official" client sucks so hard compared to the WINE+Windows client alternative, that they rightfully wanted to pull the plug on that shameful "officially supported" piece of s...oftware!
They just acknowledged what mostly everyone in linuxland already knew.
Just wanted to spare money on the cold hard reality. |
Vahligmarr
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2009.02.08 15:05:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Vahligmarr on 08/02/2009 15:09:53 Edited by: Vahligmarr on 08/02/2009 15:09:25 i got the same e-mail....
for my part, i used linux client from now and then, when i was changin skills etc..... if they had the premium client for linux, i would have used it a lot more......
to stop support of this great OS is a step backward in my point of view....
i use windows only for eve now, what a shame.....
btw, most standard apple computers have crappy intel onboard graphic chips, i bet you will have really bad fps with them even on premium lite... support of the wrong OS ccp....
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Gidgiddonah
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Posted - 2009.02.08 15:13:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Gidgiddonah on 08/02/2009 15:13:31 Bummer. I guess it's time for me to investigate playing Eve using Wine. Hopefully it will work. I'm 100% Linux. (Microsoft software is a complete waste of money. Apple stuff is good, but too expensive.) I'll give Eve/Wine a shot and see how it works. |
Grimster
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.08 15:18:00 -
[20]
Nothing else to add that hasn't already been said, Cedega client was awful essentially forcing people to run Eve under Wine.
It's a real shame and I must confess I was over the moon when I heard CCP would be "developing" a linux client, a real pity they didn't choose to go natively cross-platform.
As other posters say I hope this is considered in the future.
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Pivalak
Advanced Capital Ship Designs
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Posted - 2009.02.08 15:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
It has been pointed several times already, but as you may note, the Linux client was never complete (i.e. remember about Premium being scheduled for Q1 2008?), it had multiple bugs and issues we have suffered up to this day, and we never received real support from CCP or Transgaming for the most part. Nevertheless, that didn't prevented CCP from marketing EVE Online as supporting Windows, Mac and Linux.
I understand supporting Linux may not be cost effective for CCP, and therefore they may like to focus their resources on Windows and Mac. But they should also acknowledge they haven't provided a good service for our platform either: there have been many promises during this year, which have not been met at all in the majority of cases. And, what is worst, while we could see various devs regularly posting and interacting with the Mac community on the forums, we have been fully ostracized since last summer.
Now it is no wonder the number of people using the official Linux client remained small. Even more considering that some of the alternative solutions available for running Windows software on Linux did a better job on supporting EVE Online. In any case, it is better to have a clear answer from CCP than remaining in the dark as until now.
P.D. For those interested on running EVE using Crossover Games, there is a Valentine's offer where you can get a 12 months subscription for just 27 euros. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.02.08 15:48:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vahligmarr
btw, most standard apple computers have crappy intel onboard graphic chips, i bet you will have really bad fps with them even on premium lite... support of the wrong OS ccp....
New revisions of MacBook come with NVIDIA graphics on-board.
As for linux support drop - i really don't bother as didn't use official client for about a year. Wine is better atm, yep.
But bad news guys - new client (recently uploaded to singularity) and new patcher (it downloads necessary files from www instead of including them in patch file itself) crash on startup. Fun is coming :P
Personally, i'm not gonna cancel supscription. |
Vahligmarr
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2009.02.08 15:57:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Vahligmarr on 08/02/2009 15:57:51 well the "normal" macbook and the macbook pro will have a nvidia m9400, which seems a bit weak
only the high end version of mac book pro has nvidia 9600M, which seems the only card that will run eve the way it should...
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pivalak
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
Now it is no wonder the number of people using the official Linux client remained small. Even more considering that some of the alternative solutions available for running Windows software on Linux did a better job on supporting EVE Online. In any case, it is better to have a clear answer from CCP than remaining in the dark as until now.
CCP Whisper chose his words carefully. You'll note they are not saying there is a drop in Linux users. Just that there is a drop in us using the official client.
So, all CCP are saying is that because we found something that actually worked without their help they don't see any reason to spend money on us.
The poor Mac guys are really suffering at the moment. Silly thing is they could have been using Wine all along same as us.
------ Vote for Low graphics client |
Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:06:00 -
[25]
Oh, and I'm back for good this time. Skill queue for the win. :)
------ Vote for Low graphics client |
Blaster Fairy
Caldari Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:13:00 -
[26]
I play EVE using WINE and I think the solution here is CPP to leave current client and continue developing, but to keep a compatibility with WINE. EVE runs flawlessly under WENE 1.14 even with premium graphics so as long as CCP keep gold status for WINE it will be good. Though it's my opinion that this is some kind of discrimination to Linux users as we choose not to use Windows but eventually will be forced to for future EVE releases which is unfair. I began to play EVE especially because CCP supported GNU/Linux so I see that my time was wasted :( Hope these events turn to good.
I suggest to start a petition where GNU/Linux (free) people will sign and will count themselves so we can prove that we're many not a few. Of course this must be done outside EVE system so there are no chance of manipulation and to be fair enough. It must be something like the linux system counting which was last year I think. |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aurix Lexico Anyways, where did you get that? I've been looking for the original and haven't found it.
Got it via Email. |
Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: Aurix Lexico Anyways, where did you get that? I've been looking for the original and haven't found it.
Got it via Email.
I never got the email either. Which just goes to show there is plenty of people in here that are using Linux that CCP have no clue about.
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Vahligmarr
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:22:00 -
[29]
maybe because we (who get the mail) used the cedega official client? and wine users are counted like windows users??? |
Miraqu
Caldari Marquie-X Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Parifactor
Originally by: Lorinator
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
That's because the official client sucked so much everyone just used wine instead. Sad.
Exactly.
Nothing to add.... |
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Torino Zole
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:29:00 -
[31]
Bad news for this day. :-/ |
lolie
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:29:00 -
[32]
Edited by: lolie on 08/02/2009 16:31:20
Originally by: Vahligmarr maybe because we (who get the mail) used the cedega official client? and wine users are counted like windows users???
I think that is the reason, and some Linux user like me keep a Windows partition to run their game when the game is not propely implemented on Linux ... :/
I think this is a bad move from CCP Linux is growing much more than the mac but Linux users always find a solution to run their Windows stuff. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:31:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 08/02/2009 16:38:15
Originally by: Vahligmarr Edited by: Vahligmarr on 08/02/2009 15:57:51 well the "normal" macbook and the macbook pro will have a nvidia m9400, which seems a bit weak
Edit: lol, nvm. I have to read more thoroughly.
I play using 8600, it's performace should be equal to performance of 9400, isn't it? |
Kollron
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Posted - 2009.02.08 16:44:00 -
[34]
Well, I am - as nearly everyone in the forum seems to be - a linux user using wine to run EVE. So if the awesome work of the wine team continues and ccp keeps an eye on wine compatibility (as blizzard unofficially does for WoW - at least "people" say that they do), everything should be fine.
The by far worse part of this whole story is the message ccp delivers with this step. Other software/game companies will surely see this happening and say to themselves: "see, told you linux hasn't got a market for commercial games.. let's move on to directX".. which is just plain wrong, as the actual problem here was the official linux client being crap. There MIGHT be a problem with the lack of a market, but this story doesn't prove it.
Well.. sorry to hear this all happening. I'll keep my subscription for now and see how the compatibility with wine develops.
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sparcdr
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.08 17:14:00 -
[35]
The fundamental issue isn't Cedega per-se, rather CCP founding upon a very outdated version of it. I'm a Cedega subscriber and beta tester, and the bugs with the Windows installer (Classic, Classic->Premium) have been made aware of. To port over EVE from a real installation will work, and the performance is more than suitable under Cedega 7 or the Unibroue test releases I use.
There's nothing inherently wrong with either Wine or Cedega, or Transgaming for that matter. Transgaming's porting arm is not the same as Cedega in terms of end-user support. Cider has some enhancements over regular Cedega, though they both share the same lineage, of the original MIT licensed codebase, not GPL, though they do share back the parts they use which don't "pollute" their own code so they are not necessarily bad in that sense.
Personally I find Jeremy White of Codeweavers to be more involved in dealing with customers and general development of his Wine spinoff, though Cedega has an arm over others in areas such as usability and copy protection as well as some per-title tweaks to SM2.0/3.0 supportive games.
Wine is a performance winner in many regards, but is clearly not something that can be directly supported being unstable at most times in terms of APIs, documentation and its status as a GPL-licensed peer-to-peer project.
CCP is not saying they will prevent you from running EVE, and they are trying to keep things fairly stable so as to not break compatibility with Wine. They support Macs still, and the marketshare is proven there, so it just makes sense, and with that they still have to make sure they have code that doesn't kill their Cider port. Contrary to popular belief that one can just pick an off-the-shelf title and stick it in Wine, some effort has to be made to reduce complexity in areas where there are potential performance issues from unimplemented Win32 APIs and such, so it's not as if they are developing solely for Windows on Windows without regard.
OpenGL in terms of features often is too slow to adopt due to the ARB, so many vendors chose DirectX for that reason. Peformance is generally better under Windows at least with DirectX, not just because OpenGL has to be implemented by the card vendor, but because the card vendors themselves find it easier to work with Microsoft to get hardware support into the DirectX SDK.
Given EVE's lineage of multiple expansion packs and a decade of development, choices made then still make sense now, and given economic problems to ask them to make it os-agnostic wouldn't be palatable or proper. CCP does contribute to stackless Python, and contributes to other open-source projects where they use such libraries and not just because of copyleft but rather integration wise it's just easier to contribute than to try and track changes and have code break. That's why BSD systems are really not at a disadvantage in regard to licensing.
An 8600 GT is a mid-range and is comparable to a 9400 GT in terms of framerate.
Please just be aware the issue isn't Cedega, but CCP's inability to track development of Cedega and lackluster quality control over the build they ignorantly founded upon.
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Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.08 17:15:00 -
[36]
Just to confirm my suspicions.
If I run eve in wine under linux does that show up in your statistics as a linux user or as a windows user?
I am in the same boat as many here running eve in wine because the cedega client is just plain terrible.
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2009.02.08 17:25:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Solbright on 08/02/2009 17:25:10
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder If I run eve in wine under linux does that show up in your statistics as a linux user or as a windows user?
Pretty clearly Windoze. Whether CCP are bothering to code checks for Wine is not relevant to their statements about Linux usage.
They are focusing purely on the official Linux client figures only.
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Chris Stormrider
Gallente IDEON ANDRON
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Posted - 2009.02.08 17:49:00 -
[38]
I use windows mainly. I sometimes log-in from ubuntu8.10 , using wine. I'd like to do that more often.
The "official" client was rubbish.
CCP should have supported wine all along. |
Jack Haydn
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.08 17:49:00 -
[39]
it can be figured out if a client is run on wine, though. this is pretty obvious when you run steam games under wine and they once again have their pc-components statistic gatherings. as a sound device, it usually submits "WINE pcm" or whatever is the name of the wine pcm device again...
so this way it can be figured out quite easily ;) |
Mes Ren
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.02.08 17:57:00 -
[40]
It is hugely unfortunate that CCP believes that Linux usage is down (considering that more and more linux users play ever day -- much more than Mac), but as has been pointed out the official client blew chunks and they only counted linux users as those using the official client. For those interested, in the e-mail they sent out, they listed a number of options for being able to play eve under linux "un-officially" -- what really interesting is that all the options listed worked better than the offical client.
Hopefully CCP will keep the linux forums, and give us some mods so we can support the linux community. Hopefully one day, they will take a different take on dealing with supporting linux (the very first being that they set up a means to track the number of people playing eve through wine) and give us official support again. Regardless, I suspect that nothing will change for the linux user ... we will continue to use EVE under wine, and continue to support each other. |
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Pivalak
Advanced Capital Ship Designs
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Posted - 2009.02.08 18:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess I play using 8600, it's performace should be equal to performance of 9400, isn't it?
More like a 9500... though the latter is slightly faster. I just upgraded from a 8600 and the performance I'm observing is comparable.
http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-4810-view-GeForce-9500-GT-benchmark.html |
WheatGrass
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.08 18:29:00 -
[42]
"It is for this reason..." Don't forget to mention that Microsoft is exceptionally better in bed.
Thank you, CCP, for attempting linux support.
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farfrael
Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2009.02.08 18:37:00 -
[43]
same here, linux only user, 3 accounts etc etc Used to be one of the few using the official client exclusively until an update to the Nvidia drivers broke it.
Bug reported it and after 3 weeks of waiting got told to **** off as it's not CCP's problem. Switched to wine and it works so much better ...
THAT is the reason you do not see an increase in the number of linux users CCP ... because you chose the wrong partner (the usual rubbish, "we need accountability") and your official linux client SUCKS ASS!
I would be curious to see how many using the windows client are actually using it under wine.
Only positive is that continuing mac support = wine should be able to keep eve working ok without too much trouble and delays after patches. Hopefully. If not, might be time to cancel these accounts and see what RL looks like :)
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farfrael
Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2009.02.08 18:39:00 -
[44]
Originally by: WheatGrass "It is for this reason..." Don't forget to mention that Microsoft is exceptionally better in bed.
Thank you, CCP, for attempting linux support.
They did a half-assed attempt with a 2nd rate partner which ended up hurting the linux using community more than anything .. so yeah .. "thanks for the effort" my ass
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Kitsumi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.08 18:46:00 -
[45]
Gotta love the smoke and mirrors there.
There was no Linux client, period.
The "Linux" client was the Windows client with Cedega bolted onto the side.
The issue was that Cedega wasn't keeping up with what the client was doing.
This is why Wine was, and probably will always be, better.
I'm curious to see if the OSX version is the same. Windows + Cedega.
What chaps my hide about all of this is if CCP would drop their love affair with DX, go with OpenGL they could have true clients for all three. I mean the logic of their game is written in Python which works perfectly fine on all three. They're not doing anything that OpenGL couldn't handle. There's really no excuse for them to palm-off Windows + Cedega as "supported".
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:03:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vahligmarr maybe because we (who get the mail) used the cedega official client? and wine users are counted like windows users???
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder If I run eve in wine under linux does that show up in your statistics as a linux user or as a windows user?
The EVE client uses special hooks into the Cider and Cedega engines to identify the true platform. So the numbers are for the usage of the official Linux client. EVE clients run under Wine or CrossOver will report Windows as the platform. |
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farfrael
Freelancer Union Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:13:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CCP Explorer The EVE client uses special hooks into the Cider and Cedega engines to identify the true platform. So the numbers are for the usage of the official Linux client. EVE clients run under Wine or CrossOver will report Windows as the platform.
Ding, ding, ding ... the clue train just entered station if your official client was not so abysmally bad, the linux statistics might actually look better than the Mac ones .. who knows?! |
Aurix Lexico
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:18:00 -
[48]
It is very simple to check for wine. If the registry folder "HKEY_CURRENT_USER/software/wine" exists then it is wine, if not, it's windows.
Do CCP really not check wine? |
Nikohlas Wolfwood
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:20:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Lorinator
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
That's because the official client sucked so much everyone just used wine instead. Sad.
YES! The truth!
CCP, how is the Linux community supposed to get along if developers like you keep this mindset? Just because the Linux client isn't used doesn't mean you don't have Linux users, it means YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG! Why not ask what it is before bold-facedly closing support for an operating system?
Net Net, YOU'RE LINUX SUPPORT IS PATHETIC and you should fix it. I love the game, I love you guys, but come on, don't be dumb about this and blame us for not using a sub-par client... |
Esme Nomarra
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: CCP Explorer The EVE client uses special hooks into the Cider and Cedega engines to identify the true platform. So the numbers are for the usage of the official Linux client. EVE clients run under Wine or CrossOver will report Windows as the platform.
I'd be interested to know what the numbers are for people using each OS then, given you can identify this. If the number of actual Linux users is sufficiently large, then perhaps one could poll us to ask what solutions we use and how we woudl rate them, then if it looks doable, see if CCP could try to at least avoid breaking, if not actually helping with, the most favoured solution users actually use.
I'm not going to get into any arguments regarding the merits or otherwise of OpenGL, but I'm unconvinced that EVE couldnt be implemented using OpenGL, bearing in mind that it's the gameplay that is most important. Yes, pretty IS a feature, but even classic EVE looked pretty darned good.
The snazzier graphics in the premium client (and yes, I have used the Windows version, running on Windows, recently - till Windows started throwing wobblies again, hence I went back to Linux on my games PC - for good, this time) havent improved the gameplay one damned bit, and I'd say that the gameplay and the UI (currently generally winceworthy, particularly the Corporate one) need more love than the graphics do.
What I CAN imagine is that shifting from DirectX to OpenGL could be a huge undertaking, but , well, my two penn'orth is that it'd be a task well worth undertaking to reduce CCPs reliance on the vagaries of Microsoft. If CCP can afford to do so, of course. |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:51:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Aurix Lexico It is very simple to check for wine. If the registry folder "HKEY_CURRENT_USER/software/wine" exists then it is wine, if not, it's windows. Do CCP really not check wine?
The Windows client on top of Wine is not the officially supported Linux client on top of Cedega that we are retiring. |
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Alaki Kant
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:55:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Alaki Kant on 08/02/2009 19:57:32
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Vahligmarr maybe because we (who get the mail) used the cedega official client? and wine users are counted like windows users???
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder If I run eve in wine under linux does that show up in your statistics as a linux user or as a windows user?
The EVE client uses special hooks into the Cider and Cedega engines to identify the true platform. So the numbers are for the usage of the official Linux client. EVE clients run under Wine or CrossOver will report Windows as the platform.
And this is why your numbers are low and static. To put it bluntly, Cedega sucks. Wine and CrossOver both perform better in every area. The only advantage Cedega has is that it's officially supported, and even then it can't run premium, which wine has been able to do since soon after trinity's release. What you've found is that no one plays with Cedega, not that no one plays with Linux. |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:58:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Esme Nomarra If the number of actual Linux users is sufficiently large, then perhaps one could poll us to ask what solutions we use and how we woudl rate them, then if it looks doable, see if CCP could try to at least avoid breaking, if not actually helping with, the most favoured solution users actually use.
We have no plans to deliberately break Wine or CrossOver support.
Originally by: Esme Nomarra What I CAN imagine is that shifting from DirectX to OpenGL could be a huge undertaking
"Huge" doesn't really describe the potential size of such a project. |
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WheatGrass
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: CCP Explorer The Windows client on top of Wine is not the officially supported Linux client on top of Cedega that we are retiring.
\o/ Thank you for the clarification. Everyone, read between the line(s). |
Sythyss
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
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Posted - 2009.02.08 19:59:00 -
[55]
guess it was just a marketing stunt after all.
**** you CCP.
that is all. |
Rachag
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:14:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Sythyss guess it was just a marketing stunt after all.
**** you CCP.
that is all.
i fully endorse this statement. |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:22:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Lorinator
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
That's because the official client sucked so much everyone just used wine instead. Sad.
Nothing to add either. |
SaiLynn James
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:24:00 -
[58]
Originally by: CCP Explorer We have no plans to deliberately break Wine or CrossOver support. But there is a clear difference between "official support" and "not deliberately break support". As an example, after 10 Mar we may release a client that crashes fairly obviously when running on top of Wine and expect the Wine community to pick up such issues on Singularity or Tranquility and fix them without notification from us. At most we may possibly run quick smoketests using Wine but there is no guarantee.
That is actually better response and support than we have seen in these forums or from you CCP in a long long long time. I'd rather have your support (as above) than what we've been subjected to in these forums for the last 7 months to be honest.
The question remains, as you've seen by the thread counts and such here, will you let us keep this forum section to ease helping each other and reporting bugs TO EACH OTHER and wine support types, or are we going to be back to our famous zillion page one linux thread?
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Jean Dessaut
DEATHFUNK Doctrine.
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:25:00 -
[59]
Not an enormous amount to add, as a lot of it's been said anyway. The Cedega client was pretty crap, and I didn't use it for anything except flipping skills. (Well, I did once try a little PvE.)
That said, I'm not entirely sure I would trust the client running through Wine. The last thing I need is some crash at a crucial moment like breaking free from a 0.0 gate camp.
Anyway, as has been pointed out, too, the origin of our woes really was the choice to go with the platform-locked DirectX technology over OpenGL. As near as I can make out, the rest of the client technology (Python and presumably c or C++) is intrinsically cross-platform, so it looks to me like the graphics layer is the only real barrier. (Not that I'm an expert on the internals of the Eve Client.) That's all moot now, anyway, since the client has been developed for DirectX, and there is no way the CCP devs are going to go re-writing it from the ground up to use OpenGL.
Thanks to the devs for at least giving this a shot, and for keeping us in the loop. |
Aurix Lexico
Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Aurix Lexico It is very simple to check for wine. If the registry folder "HKEY_CURRENT_USER/software/wine" exists then it is wine, if not, it's windows. Do CCP really not check wine?
The Windows client on top of Wine is not the officially supported Linux client on top of Cedega that we are retiring.
You misunderstood what I meant. I just wanted to know if you check if the eve client is running under wine. |
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Sevarus James
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:30:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Jean Dessaut
That said, I'm not entirely sure I would trust the client running through Wine. The last thing I need is some crash at a crucial moment like breaking free from a 0.0 gate camp.
The wine + premium combination has been rock stable for months. Most of us have been forced to use wine for quite awhile as the official client has serious problems with fps/gfx on a lot of systems.
And after seeing the discos' and crashes that my friends online experience under MS Windows + eve, you are worried about wine/linux/eve moreso? EVE has "gold" status under wine's listing, and its only 'gold' and not 'platinum' due to a few gfx issues left to deal with shadows under dx9 which are being worked on as well as a windowing bug that is NOT critical to play. |
Fennicus
Amarr Shoot To Thrill
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:36:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Fennicus on 08/02/2009 20:37:11 Sad news, but I think this (in combination with discontinued SM1) further supports the idea that CCP really need to start collecting software/hardware information in a decent manner.
You guys really need to find out just how many people are playing EVE under Linux through whatever method, because I think we're all expecting the next expansion to not work under Wine and you're going to leave all Linux users completely stranded. And that number may well be a pretty large fraction of people, or it might not - I imagine that CCP know no better than I do about its magnitude.
(In any case, it's pretty cool that it's worked so well up to now at least!) |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:36:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Aurix Lexico
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Aurix Lexico It is very simple to check for wine. If the registry folder "HKEY_CURRENT_USER/software/wine" exists then it is wine, if not, it's windows. Do CCP really not check wine?
The Windows client on top of Wine is not the officially supported Linux client on top of Cedega that we are retiring.
You misunderstood what I meant. I just wanted to know if you check if the eve client is running under wine.
We don't, it reports Windows as the platform. We are retiring the support for the official Linux client running on top of Cedega, for which we have accurate numbers. |
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Technomagez
Gallente teeny tiny space pirates
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:42:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lorinator
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
That's because the official client sucked so much everyone just used wine instead. Sad.
Aye, that's the whole thing... how couldn't they see this? Come on, the "official" client did not support voice and premium graphics, crashed occasionally and had a crappy framerate.
Wine was better in so many ways. But wine still doesn't make eve work as intended. I also fear that wine won't be able to run ambulation/walking in stations properly. And every update could potentially destroy a working eve installation in wine... |
Elassus Herron
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:44:00 -
[65]
CCP, I appreciate that you're staying in touch with us Linux users on this, as Cedega's support is notorious. *Please* keep the Linux forum open, and I beg you to consider a couple other things:
* check for that registry entry that identifies wine. You'll almost certainly find that a lot of your "windows" clients are actually wine clients * Please keep in touch/help with the wine project, even if unofficially. I'm sure they'll love having a more prominent role * If you ever find that you need to re-write your graphics engine from the ground up, such that switching to OpenGL would be (somewhat) trivial, please do it. Supporting an "official" client that's just a wrapper is not the same thing as a native cross-platform client.
I used the cedega client for about a month, before it stopped working. I have never used it since, because the wine version is so much better. If you cut your cedega support to 10% of current, and used that to help the wine people, they - and we - would love you.
Cheers,
EH |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:48:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 08/02/2009 20:49:05 My suggestion is to stop whining from eve-on-wine camp, the only peeps here who has right to do that - ones who used official client.
My opinion is that nobody using wine would return to official client - so why CCP should spend money on that?
Get some basic knowledge, Apocrypha client, and help OSS community by writing bug reports, debugging any encountered issues yourselves, etc - it would help much more than whining on forums.
Originally by: Elassus Herron * check for that registry entry that identifies wine. You'll almost certainly find that a lot of your "windows" clients are actually wine clients
It's a bit late isn't it? |
Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.08 20:59:00 -
[67]
It's certainly a loss for the Linux guys, but honestly I wouldn't be too worried about it. As was previously pointed out, the official client was crap anyhow compared to WINE (I'll restrict my comments as to why that is), so there is no immediate loss. The official client was easier to set up than WINE, but honestly I don't know anyone who uses Linux who isn't competent enough to set up WINE too.
I think the concern about future compatibility is a valid concern, but it's also something that's far too easy to worry about. CCP is not going to stop targeting WINE, they can't - the Mac client will continue to exist with full SM3 support, and what is Cider but a version of WINE? CCP can't get too crazy at the risk of breaking the Mac client, so it would be unlikely that they'll do anything to break the client running under WINE on Linux.
I'm caught in the middle however on the fact that the Mac client hasn't been put out of its misery. It's not very good, I'm not sure it's fair to new Mac customers to keep it when the Mac is advertised as an equal platform (it's not). CCP may have been better off canning both clients. |
Nox Virago
Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.02.08 21:15:00 -
[68]
Hi,
just want to add my two cents...
Dropping the official client (which most users find lacking) is not necessarily a bad thing. Most people prefer the windows + wine version and frankly I can't blame them. I imagine it will save a lot of effort and development resources as well, so that they can be better spent on improving the game on the other two major platforms.
On the other hand, an official Linux client meant that the EVE client dev team had to keep and eye out for incompatibilities with Cedega, which is in fact a wine fork from a time before time. So I guess thanks to the official Linux client many compatibility improvements have made it into the core EVE client, thus (though unintentionally and unofficially) the windows client was made more compatible with wine.
The question now is this - will the continuing development of the EVE client take into consideration compatibility issues with wine and to what degree? I (and surely many people in this part of the forums) would like to know if at least some effort will be put into keeping EVE running under Linux. Also will you keep the Linux section in the forums? Although the platform will not be officially supported since March 10th, it can still be a place where people can share their EVE on Linux experience with others, discuss problems and offer solutions... |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.08 21:20:00 -
[69]
Congratulations.
Your paid developers can't compete with some volunteer weekend-warriors.
Can't wait to see what your gurus do with the official client.
My advice: Mar 10th, set some 60d skills to train. |
Eoras Northwind
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.02.08 21:26:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Eoras Northwind on 08/02/2009 21:32:26
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
And your numbers are wrong. Have you even corrected for the significantly larger Mac OS install base vs Linux? It's very hard to even count the number of "Linux" desktops.
Originally by: CCP Explorer We are retiring the support for the official Linux client running on top of Cedega, for which we have accurate numbers.
FWIW, I use the wine client, but bought and have installed the 'Official Linux Client' originally. Due to the lack of quality in the official client, every Eve-Online Linux user I know either personally or via the game uses Wine or dual boots. So while I'm an actual sale, I (OpenSUSE 11.1 x86_64 + wine) don't show up in your numbers, proving your numbers questionable.
Originally by: CCP Whisper It is for this reason that I am sorry to have to announce that from the 10th of March onwards CCP will no longer be officially supporting the Linux operating system.
I'm sorry, but you can't discontinue support for that which never existed.
It's a nice farce, but the Offical "Linux Client" never was.
~/.cedega/EVE Online/c_drive/Program Files/CCP/EVE tcsh-6.15.00>file eve.exe eve.exe: MS-DOS executable PE for MS Windows (GUI) Intel 80386 32-bit
The Eve Online Linux client is as native as notepad.exe.
The Cider technology simply let you run your WINDOWS ONLY compiled python client on a Linux system. This is identical to running it under wine. It's still a bloated, slow PXE executable. It still needs the wineloader and wine environment. It's still a Direct X application using slow OpenGL translation.
It's why I threw the beta away +5 years ago and stayed away until 2007. Direct X developers and their users are the definition of a captive audience. You live and work when and how Microsoft wants you to. Each sale is less about your profit than about one company enforcing it's one way of doing business: funneling more cash into it's monopoly at the expense of others and quality.
Originally by: CCP Whisper As you may know, we have been working in partnership with Transgaming Technologies, utilizing their Cider engine to allow EVE Online to run on the Mac OS and their Cedega engine to enable operation under Linux.
In my opinion, CCP picked the wrong company to do the "porting." Cedega once had the leading implementation of DirectX on Linux, but their tiny team worked on their private and increasingly hacked up fork of ancient wineX code. They could not keep up with the Open Source wine project. Today, wine runs more applications better than Cedega. The company that sponsors wine, Crossover, even has a game-specific version with similar features to Cedega.
All you are doing is no longer testing and fixing issues Cedega. Why not do so under wine? Sooner or later, CCP will make changes that cause WINE to stop working, probably also killing the part your Mac fanbase who also use WINE.
So, CCP, will you continue to test? When will the first showsopper bug be?
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Ix Forres
Caldari Vanguard Frontiers Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.02.08 21:48:00 -
[71]
Originally by: CCP Explorer We have no plans to deliberately break Wine or CrossOver support. But there is a clear difference between "official support" and "not deliberately break support". As an example, after 10 Mar we may release a client that crashes fairly obviously when running on top of Wine and expect the Wine community to pick up such issues on Singularity or Tranquility and fix them without notification from us. At most we may possibly run quick smoketests using Wine but there is no guarantee.
If CCP is to discontinue support for Linux, then how about putting some resources to work with the Wine product and community?
As a GPL product, anyone can contribute. How about setting a dev or two to the task of ensuring that Wine plays nicely with EVE? There are a bunch of very small changes CCP could make that would enhance the EVE-on-Wine experience no end. Would it help if the community started a list? Things like falling back to non-Microsoft fonts (sans.ttf instead of arial.ttf if arial.ttf doesn't exist, for example), little problems that make life a little more complex than 'install and go'.
CCP have a huge community out there that can be leveraged- Wine. Many more developers than Transgaming, doing a far better job, and very appreciative whenever game/app developers step up and help- be it by adjusting their apps or explaining things to the Wine community.
It would be a real shame to see CCP ignore the platform entirely as your post suggests you might end up doing. Even if the 'official support' motif is dropped, as I would expect, you could at least provide unofficial support for very little additional work. |
Pivalak
Advanced Capital Ship Designs
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Posted - 2009.02.08 21:51:00 -
[72]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Aurix Lexico You misunderstood what I meant. I just wanted to know if you check if the eve client is running under wine.
We don't, it reports Windows as the platform. We are retiring the support for the official Linux client running on top of Cedega, for which we have accurate numbers.
Which brings the question of why CCP is/was not interested on knowing the actual number of EVE players under Linux.
I mean, on the one hand it is not difficult to add a check for the appropriate registry key, so that the Windows client running under Wine gets reported as such. On the other hand, we all agree the reason why the number of users of the "official" client was so low was the poor quality of the service provided. So if there was a real interest from CCP on supporting this platform, one would think that there would be interest on getting such numbers and, if reasonable enough, reconsider the way CCP supports Linux given the bad results obtained through Cedega/Transgaming.
Also, I would like to point that your five messages from today account for all the feedback we have received in the last seven months, during which CCP devs have blatantly ignored any question on the Linux client on the forums. However, I acknowledge it must not have been easy for you and CCP Whisper to step forward and tell us about all this, so I personally would like to thank you for finally giving us an answer on these matters... even if it is not the one we would have liked to hear. |
Alaki Kant
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.08 21:53:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Alaki Kant on 08/02/2009 21:55:49
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 08/02/2009 20:49:05 My suggestion is to stop whining from eve-on-wine camp, the only peeps here who has right to do that - ones who used official client.
That makes little sense. Those who used wine used it because it was better. They wouldn't necessarily continue to use it if CCP brought the Cedega client up to date.
In addition, when the Cedega client was supported, Linux users had assurance that Cedega would continue to work even if a patch was released that wine didn't support.
Originally by: Pivalak
I mean, on the one hand it is not difficult to add a check for the appropriate registry key, so that the Windows client running under Wine gets reported as such. On the other hand, we all agree the reason why the number of users of the "official" client was so low was the poor quality of the service provided. So if there was a real interest from CCP on supporting this platform, one would think that there would be interest on getting such numbers and, if reasonable enough, reconsider the way CCP supports Linux given the bad results obtained through Cedega/Transgaming.
The contract they have with Transgaming may prohibit supporting wine. |
KtoJest
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.08 22:06:00 -
[74]
ditto on the cedega client.it's always been a piece of s**t. i thought they turned over a new leaf after getting the ccp contract. but, it was business as usual...all over again. what a schicksal those clowns have.
ccp dumping cedega is the good news. ccp dumping linux users, if true, is the bad news. but its not bad news for linux users only. it is bad news for ccp also. spending money on games comes under the heading of discretionary income. that is, the money i've got left after i feed, clothe, house etc myself and maybe a family, or maybe its my folks that finance my addiction to eve. with the world going from recession to depression, it won't be long before discretionary income dries up. iceland has already gone belly up. georgia, usa is not that far away. official usa unemployment rate =7%+ unofficial =12%+
ccp will, if not already, see a shrinkage of their player base. it would be very foolish to alienate a fervent and rabid linux customer base when the only significant income stream is your player base. i hope that they have taken that into their musings. but then these are the same folks that chose cedega. so who knows.
with the talented comments i've read, on this forum, i would bet that the collective wisdom would have had a 'screaming' stable linux client working a long time ago. i don't think one finds this 'fervency' on the other os forums, (i may be wrong here). wine and crossover work and that is why the linux community supports them both. cedega has been banished since day one.. or two, whatever. this ccp-cedega project was doomed from the start. and i don't think the linux community was any more critical of this piece of software than they are on any other piece of software they are passionate about. i had always wondered how this marriage made in hell would come to an end. maybe its time for me to hang up my 2 accounts and get back to rl.
eve is supposed to be about team play. why not bring it into rl ccp? thats win-win all the other alternatives are lose-lose. work with the linux community. thats a win-win.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.02.08 22:11:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Vahligmarr maybe because we (who get the mail) used the cedega official client? and wine users are counted like windows users???
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder If I run eve in wine under linux does that show up in your statistics as a linux user or as a windows user?
The EVE client uses special hooks into the Cider and Cedega engines to identify the true platform. So the numbers are for the usage of the official Linux client. EVE clients run under Wine or CrossOver will report Windows as the platform.
So the answer is: There's a TON of linux users but they are simply smart enough not to use the garbage linux client from cedega.
While the WINE thread is what? 80 pages long? While the Cedega Sticky thread is what? 10 pages long?
When I first read the premium lite dev blog... I knew cedega had to really get their crap together... or get out.
Good riddance to cedega.
It's now time to start properly supporting Wine. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Cormac MacAair
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Posted - 2009.02.08 22:13:00 -
[76]
Well, I'm saddened to hear this news. I have both Linux under Wine and the official client on my system and I used the official one usually (I have some tweaking problems with Wine that I've just been to lazy to rectify).
Most everything has been said already but I just wanted to voice my greatest concern. I am mainly worried that future patches might break EVE on Linux.
I also can't understand why CCP couldn't work together with the Linux/Wine community to come up with better solutions to what they needed doing - if anyone is going to know how to ensure it works its going to be people that work with Linux day in day out and you wouldn't even have to pay volunteers!
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Alaki Kant
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.08 22:19:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Cormac MacAair
Most everything has been said already but I just wanted to voice my greatest concern. I am mainly worried that future patches might break EVE on Linux.
I also can't understand why CCP couldn't work together with the Linux/Wine community to come up with better solutions to what they needed doing - if anyone is going to know how to ensure it works its going to be people that work with Linux day in day out and you wouldn't even have to pay volunteers!
This is exactly what I'm worried about. Maybe they started looking at Linux/Cedega usage now because getting it to work with Apocrypha would have been a lot of work.
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Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.08 22:48:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Alaki Kant
Originally by: Cormac MacAair
Most everything has been said already but I just wanted to voice my greatest concern. I am mainly worried that future patches might break EVE on Linux.
I also can't understand why CCP couldn't work together with the Linux/Wine community to come up with better solutions to what they needed doing - if anyone is going to know how to ensure it works its going to be people that work with Linux day in day out and you wouldn't even have to pay volunteers!
This is exactly what I'm worried about. Maybe they started looking at Linux/Cedega usage now because getting it to work with Apocrypha would have been a lot of work.
Even though it'll work fine under Cider? No. That wouldn't have been the case. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf |
Carinosa Peligrosa
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Posted - 2009.02.08 22:59:00 -
[79]
I'm a Mac OS X user, but I feel like I'm in the same boat as the Linux users -- the Mac OS X client does kind of suck. Crossover Games ("commercial" "WINE") was touch and go, but when it worked, it was superior to the Cider client by far.
I can't wait to evaluate the new Premium Client come March. In both Cider and Crossover/WINE.
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kakmonstret
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Posted - 2009.02.08 23:00:00 -
[80]
For what it's worth also a Linux only player.
And about the statistics that ccp doesn't monitor true Linux usage is very strange. Support or not knowing what customers you got is very important to any business. But I guess as long as they don't care enough to even monitor the true Linux usage then it is kinda strange to even think about support.
One thing I think we as a community should do is to step up our efforts to try beta clients as often we can and send bug reports to both wine and ccp. Even if the bug reports probably will be shoot down quickly from ccp it can once in a while give them a hint on something that maybe creates problem on windows too.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.08 23:11:00 -
[81]
I don't see why CCP would close this section. The EVE on wine thread pre-dates this forum section.
If thise section got closed wine threads would show up and "pollute" other forum sections - which helps nobody.
CCP - if you want to avoid misunderstandings re support - just rename this section to "Linux (with wine - unsupported)" or some such. |
Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.08 23:38:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Ix Forres
If CCP is to discontinue support for Linux, then how about putting some resources to work with the Wine product and community?
As a GPL product, anyone can contribute. How about setting a dev or two to the task of ensuring that Wine plays nicely with EVE? There are a bunch of very small changes CCP could make that would enhance the EVE-on-Wine experience no end. Would it help if the community started a list? Things like falling back to non-Microsoft fonts (sans.ttf instead of arial.ttf if arial.ttf doesn't exist, for example), little problems that make life a little more complex than 'install and go'.
I'm going to walk on egg shells for a moment and try not to break anything.
There are really two groups of WINE developers. There are the guys working for Codeweavers, and then there's everyone else. The former compose the main chunk of full time developers, but they're also mostly concerned with business applications - Office and other officey apps on Linux/Mac is a good business for them. They're well organized, but they don't particularly care about gaming. And in spite of being the main chunk of full time developers, they don't exercise a great deal of control on the WINE project.
And then you have everyone else, mostly volunteers and coincidentally "everyone else" tends to be the greater controller of WINE. EO, for all intents and purposes, has ADHD. Working with EO can be difficult even in good times, because they'll work on what they want to work on when they want to work on it, and they don't give a damn about anything else. Anyone who's good and will take paying work tends to end up at Codeweavers, so EO is composed of the stubborn bastards that remain. The issue here is that it's not in CCP's interests to support EO, because EO isn't going to help CCP. EO doesn't care about the Mac platform even though the userbase is many times larger, EO is fixated on WoW at the moment when it comes to gaming, etc.
I'm not knocking guys that do what's otherwise free (and generally high quality) development, but CCP has little to gain supporting WINE at the moment. If and when WINE became more focused on maximizing its user base and helping the most people run the most popular apps (which is really a job that Codeweavers takes away), then it might make sense to support WINE. But as long as WINE development remains disorganized and shys away from bringing Mac support up to parity (so that CCP would no longer need Cider), it's probably not something that would be of particularly good use of CCP's resources. |
Draco Argen
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Posted - 2009.02.09 00:03:00 -
[83]
I'm more waying in to get my Vote on a Linux only user. Also quite unusually a full "Official Linux Client" user too. I feel somewhat like I've been kicked in the gut, after getting so exited about the next release Apocrypha. I only came back to Eve because of the Linux support. Having long ago dropped Windows as a personal desktop. So far I have contributed 2 years (-5 months odd) of subscription feas purely on the basis of Linux support.
People this is does appear not to be a "we give up on Linux" Speech, although the potential and tone has left me disturbed and hurt. From Wispers's response it's purely an official dropping of Cedega, and unnecessary support and QA of the Cider system and the legacy equivalent of wine they run. Initiated by very low usage of the official Linux client. (Which this forum has done nothing but confirm)
Can I ask CCP (Whisper if your listening). Is there anything significant or major in Apocrypha (given the major dropping of the classic client) that is likely to cause problems with the current version of wine? (full scale breaks, not little bugs)
Also is their anything significant you can foresee in the roadmap that would exclude Wine from running Eve-online. (No secret details requested, just a yes or no and approximate time-scale is fine eg post 2010 your screwed)
All I would ask is this forum to continue, more importantly for CCP devs to continue observing it. Un-officially, keep the back channels open, please. In a financial recession I'm more likely to A) pay for eve to keep me happy on a free and open os, B) give up Eve because i wont pay ú40-100 for an OS that offers me no other benefits.
Yours respectfully -Draco Argen
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Katrina Bekers
Gallente Hikage Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.09 00:15:00 -
[84]
Originally by: CCP Explorer As an example, after 10 Mar we may release a client that crashes fairly obviously when running on top of Wine and expect the Wine community to pick up such issues on Singularity or Tranquility and fix them without notification from us.
Don't throw such a gauntlet to a tribe of geeks.
By your own words, a tribe whose size you ignore, as the share of them playing your game.
You know it's hard to outsmart a bunch of determined geeks.
You know because you were.
Anyway, good riddance. Thank you CCP. |
Cyrrus Ex
Gallente Intergalactic Peace Organization Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.09 00:18:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Cyrrus Ex on 09/02/2009 00:21:01 I, too, am a solidly linux only user. A little saddened by this news, but I also hope that we can still play eve after Apocrypha through wine.
Edit: And maybe we could also see some support for the wine project coming from CCP to get the game to run under wine nearly flawlessly. |
Nei Gong
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Posted - 2009.02.09 00:49:00 -
[86]
Sad really. "We are working now on Premium for Mac and Linux! Expect them Soon(tm)" (c) CCP 2007 What we got instead? ...
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Mes Ren
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.02.09 01:08:00 -
[87]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Aurix Lexico
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Aurix Lexico It is very simple to check for wine. If the registry folder "HKEY_CURRENT_USER/software/wine" exists then it is wine, if not, it's windows. Do CCP really not check wine?
The Windows client on top of Wine is not the officially supported Linux client on top of Cedega that we are retiring.
You misunderstood what I meant. I just wanted to know if you check if the eve client is running under wine.
We don't, it reports Windows as the platform. We are retiring the support for the official Linux client running on top of Cedega, for which we have accurate numbers.
Couple things. First, guys, please don't mob the Dev. We haven't seen one here in a very long time and don't want to scare him off. Second, read between the lines guys. I'm pretty sure CCP knows that they have a number of linux users, but they have figured out that "unofficial options" work so well, and the cost of fixing the "official client" are so high that it doesn't make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't figure out a way to leverage how well eve runs under linux via "unofficial avenues" to continue to appeal to the linux crowd. Third, again, read between the lines, it seems that CCP is going to make an effort to make sure they don't break the client so it doesn't work with wine. They just can't promise anything as it won't be an "official OS." It would be nice if CCP made an effort to put together a little commitee of Linux users that could help with testing and feedback, but that would probably be too close to an "official client type thing". ________________________
No Trademark -- Mes Ren, Mes Builder -- -- CEO --
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2009.02.09 01:26:00 -
[88]
Next question is will the revamped Mac version actually do the job?
If not, I dunno how long this has been an option but, I can see Wine for OSX gaining some traction in the future.
------ Vote for Low graphics client |
Persephone 66
Gallente JinTech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.09 02:00:00 -
[89]
I use the Linux client and save for the occasional graphics hiccup, I have no trouble with it.
I couldn't get the premium client to run under wine, it can't find a sound device. Give me ISK and I'll leave you alone. | Diary of an Egg Jockey | |
Sythyss
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
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Posted - 2009.02.09 02:50:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Alz Shado Congratulations.
Your paid developers can't compete with some volunteer weekend-warriors.
Can't wait to see what your gurus do with the official client.
My advice: Mar 10th, set some 60d skills to train.
This. |
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Talis Mahn
Free Galactic Enterprises Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2009.02.09 02:51:00 -
[91]
My read of the e-mail I got was that CCP is abandoning the Cedega official client, not the Linux community (maybe for the time being). One possibility would be for a sticky topic of installing through WINE. It took the official client for me to actually break down and get wine working.
(OpenSUSE 10-11)
I usually play without sound so I can listen to Pandora while I'm playing (CCP You need more sound controls!!! I find the existing ones too finicky and I can be bothered to balance the main volume with the effects!).
What we need to do as a community is actually vote on the bugs that show up in WINE. A good example is the focus bug (Only 40 votes????!!! Are you kidding me?).
We need to do a little stepping up on this. I am not surrounded. I'm in a target rich environment. |
Sothis Antares
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2009.02.09 02:59:00 -
[92]
CCP dropped official linux client support and i couldn't care less. basically this won't change anything as everybody knows that the 'official' client was broken in many ways (i dare to generalize here), so i for one can easily do without this 'official' support since it never gave me any advantages over the wine alternative. You can't blame CCP for that step except for even starting such a adventurous cooperation with Transgaming. i think employing a few developers concentrating on direct wine development would have been a much better investment than trying to get eve running with a totally outdated wine codebase, i.e. cedega. CCP, having a corporation in background providing 'support' for a product, doesn't make the product any better. this mindset is something pre-millenium. these days, especially when it comes to the software market, either do it on your own or you will loose money for nothing
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Zenologic
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.09 03:23:00 -
[93]
for some reason, i dont even feel like logging into eve tonight.
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Scifi
Caldari REUNI0N Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.02.09 03:46:00 -
[94]
Given the amount of love all us players had for the official client I can't say I'm surprised at all. The only reason I kept it installed on my system was in case of the occasional "Wtf did you guys break?" from the Wine team.
Lack of premium support ALONE was enough to make it a never use except in emergencies for me. |
Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2009.02.09 04:04:00 -
[95]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Aurix Lexico
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Aurix Lexico It is very simple to check for wine. If the registry folder "HKEY_CURRENT_USER/software/wine" exists then it is wine, if not, it's windows. Do CCP really not check wine?
The Windows client on top of Wine is not the officially supported Linux client on top of Cedega that we are retiring.
You misunderstood what I meant. I just wanted to know if you check if the eve client is running under wine.
We don't, it reports Windows as the platform. We are retiring the support for the official Linux client running on top of Cedega, for which we have accurate numbers.
Maybe it would be a good idea to start checking this. At least you could then decide how much effort you put on these "smoke tests" |
Draco Argen
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Posted - 2009.02.09 04:14:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Zenologic for some reason, i dont even feel like logging into eve tonight.
+agree |
Kaleff Orlop
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.09 04:53:00 -
[97]
I for one don't have any intention of throwing ms back on a machine. I'm currently running the linux client but was planing on switching to wine for the premium.
Seems like the blue posts are saying they are willing to make sure the splash screen comes up under wine and thats about it. Not really sure whether I want to play the unwanted step child role for a monthly fee.
I think at the least ccp should make an effort to get an accurate count of the linux users before they make this decision. Blues say they cant tell windows from wine, forum activity cant be used to assess numbers and, in my case at least, not everyone using the linux client got an email.
Imo, your making this decision the same way you make the linux client, with the minimal amount of effort. Admittedly, thats more effort then most companies put forth twords linux but if your implementation runs new players off rather then draws them in it was a wasted effort.
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Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2009.02.09 06:11:00 -
[98]
Eve ran under wine long before the Official Eve for Linux came out, hopefully it will continue to do so.
You can see why they used transgaming, they needed control and a way to guarantee compatibility - impossible if they just supported wine. Sine both Eve and Wine are continually changing, obviously if becomes a pain to "officially" support Wine.
Let's see how it goes before complaining too much abt what this announcement means.
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Raget Horriskken
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Posted - 2009.02.09 06:27:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Parifactor
Originally by: Lorinator
Originally by: CCP Whisper However we have not seen a similar growth in the numbers using our Linux client.
That's because the official client sucked so much everyone just used wine instead. Sad.
Exactly.
Yep, was stoked to have found eve on Linux, and massively disappointed when I played it in comparison to the windows client. The points made in the OP were fair enough, but its a chicken and egg situation. What actually happened was a half hearted port, and then a half hearted uptake.
I'm willing to bet that most EVE players have at least tinkered around with Linux at some time or another, (same target market really- enthusiasts) so its not as if there wasn't the interest, but really, put the two clients side by side and ask yourself, which one would you rather use.
I guess its a sensible move for CCP, but a dark day for Linux gaming.
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Zaraa
United Forces
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Posted - 2009.02.09 07:21:00 -
[100]
/Signed by linux user I currently have Eve installed both throu cedega and wine. I'm currently useing cedega client more then wine, so its sad news. The delevopers behind wine does a great work, but the fact that CCP stand/stod behind delevopers for linux is great imho. Thanks for doing it CCP, one year is more then non.
Now I just hope premium-lite will run smooth in wine
running Gentoo\Linux
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Cal Chet
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.09 07:41:00 -
[101]
You know, I'm wondering whether CCP can work out how many currently active accounts have ever been accessed using the official Linux client...
Because I bet all you Wine users, who have such scathing things to say about it, have at least tried it...
Wouldn't it be interesting to - say - compare that figure with the number of Mac users... |
Chillshock
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Posted - 2009.02.09 07:55:00 -
[102]
Sad thing, but understandable.
I am one of those who ditched the cedega client and just ran the original eve-client on wine. Worked so flawlessly on my computer I havent looked back since. So yah, I don't think the statistics you, CCP, gathered were quite correct. The wine-using eve-ers are probably by a magnitude more than the "linux-client" ones.
But thanks for the effort, Eve was one famous game to actively promote linux gaming.
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mrkaczor
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Posted - 2009.02.09 08:45:00 -
[103]
Edited by: mrkaczor on 09/02/2009 08:55:01 Edited by: mrkaczor on 09/02/2009 08:54:31 most posts are very accurate. I also use WINE client. Some solution I think should be official support for Wine or at least Wine install FAQ. They should also contact with Wine devs and linux playing community to help debug EVE on linux. OpenGL is the best solution but I don't think they wish too use it even in long term future (maybe when MS will be bankrupt someday :P )
Maybe please add yourself here to give them some stats about official/wine linux users:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=989241 |
okst666
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Posted - 2009.02.09 09:03:00 -
[104]
hm..I play eve with the official linux client and it works perfectly for me... I tried to get it to run under wine a few times (because I wanted the eyecandy premium stuff), but had no luck at all..I tried the most of the "get eve to run under wine"-tutorials...no hope.
So...I think we all better stop whining about the fact that the official client will not be supported anymore, and try to find solutions to get the windowsclient finally run under all circumstances.
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Panic1
CompleXion Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.09 09:51:00 -
[105]
They should've put more effort into supporting Wine instead of Cedega, it already works nicely on alot more platforms then the official EVE Linux Client. Even before the official EVE linux client was announced. I'm sure there are enough programming firms that would have been able to improve the existing WINE port if CCP wanted to outsource the EVE Linux client.
EVE has been on the top requested applications list as long as I can remember, it is still on the 9th position now. That has to stand for something, right?
I would like to see the fonts and dll's added to the client package by default. It is a hassle to search and install those fonts when you don't have a windows installation to copy them from. It's a small effort, really, but it would make a huge difference for the Linux Gamers. (imho)
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.09 10:23:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Vahligmarr maybe because we (who get the mail) used the cedega official client? and wine users are counted like windows users???
At least I DID use the official client. Nowadays I actually run via Windows due to me switching to Archlinux and haven't really bothered to set up Wine there yet. -----
EVE is a PvP game. Adaptation is your survival. |
Water Sky
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Posted - 2009.02.09 12:24:00 -
[107]
As a Linux user, the only reason I chose EVE over WoW was it had an "official" Linux client. Of course, later I found it is rubbish:
1) No unicode & font support. 2) No in-game Mic support. (useful for random chat) 3) Graphics is not good.
And wine+win client gives all these back. So far besides some random crashes (and official does as well), it can use almost every features with no problem.
Why not CCP just can simply repack a recent wine version with win client as the updated official version? The time spent on such work is even shorter than writing up such declaration !!!!
If CCP needs hands, shout out, I think lots people here would like to help. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.09 12:47:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 09/02/2009 12:49:06 Good job CCP. This way we don't need to tell all the poor folks that try the Official Client to remove it and start with Wine. They'll do that by themselves.
Please just leave this forum section open, so we can discuss Wine issues.
Oh yeah, btw this forum section is all the usefull Linux support we ever actualy got. So don't drop the ONLY working Linux support :-) --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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CCP Navigator
C C P CCP
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Posted - 2009.02.09 12:51:00 -
[109]
Please keep comments and queries regarding the changes to Linux support in this thread.
Thank you.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Games, Email / Netfang
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