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Schani Kratnorr
x13
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:17:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr *text snipped to conserve space*
So basically you dont have to play the game yourself any more?
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Schani Kratnorr
x13
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:18:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Schani Kratnorr on 21/04/2008 16:18:40
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr *text snipped to conserve space*
So basically you dont have to play the game yourself any more?
That is correct my handsome friend, and to think it all started when CCP relaxed their usually tough stance on cheating.
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Arduron
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:27:00 -
[183]
My thoughts on this whole issue are that there is obviously an underlying problem here that needs to be dealt with. This program specifically is only a bandaid solution that some have come up with for their view on the problem.
Generally speaking from one standpoint I think I agree with the general concept of the program (although specific implementation is questionable). For one, as has been already stated, large alliances are ALREADY using tools like this, and they would likely prefer if it remained their sole advantage. By opening this up to the masses, it removes that unbalance. In addition, I do agree, that making the spatial awareness tools more "accessable" is a must. They may be easy for some to master, but in the end the system favors "flying blind" (makes it easy for the morally questionable gank squads and griefers).
I think that CCP should address this on 2 angles: - outright BAN the use of any tool which integrates with the system to deliver an advantage to one party or another through information gleaned from servers or the client. Even if that tool does not alter anything. - Then they should find a way to improve the ingame spatial awareness tools. Provide the functionaly (at least in part) of this tool to the masses on an equal playing field. (for example replace the local window with a tool which can list players in the current system with a filter option, to be able to filter out people with a specific standing or something).
A good precident for this type of solution is back in the original EQ days, there was a tool known as ShowEQ. It tracked peoples positions in a zone, and showed realtime mapping and such. While the info it provided was far overkill, (it gave a huge advantage to those using it). The general realtime mapping function was it's main original purpose (and it was a legitmate need to be filled). SOE banned the use of ShowEQ, and banned players using it, but as a compromise they built in a realtime mapping solution for navigation into the game client itself.
So to sum up, I agree. This tool gives too much power to anyone using it. I don't feel that anyone should have the option to use an application which gives a significant advantage to them over someone who is not using the same tool.
I also agree that the tools for personal defense (and avoiding attack) are insuficient for those that need them, and something needs to be done to bolster the existing tools. I am against this tool in general, but the concept of improving people's ability to detect an incoming war target, or unfriendly is definately a good thing all around in my opinion.
I think CCP needs to look very closely at this issue, and find a longterm solution to the root cause. By finding a solution that maintains/improves balance, and inhibits the use of 3rd party tools to gain an advantage over someone else.
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Eronysis
Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:42:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 16:46:37 Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 16:42:13 ShowEQ accessed the stack...Everquest had an open user interface written in XML, it allowed for lots and lots of alerts,timer and automations. This trend has since been inherited by almost every successful MMO save this one... I would say poor example.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:58:00 -
[185]
This thread just confirms how dim witted and self-absorbed the eve community is in confronting the substance of Guomindong's claims.
Stay in school. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Schani Kratnorr
x13
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:11:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Erotic Irony This thread just confirms how dim witted and self-absorbed the eve community is in confronting the substance of Guomindong's claims. Stay in school.
Hello I am better than you, therefore I don't have to provide substance in my posts.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:13:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Goumindong
So you are against:
EFT in any use[This gives players an advantage in knowing just how their ship performs without testing it and manually calculating everything, it also lets them easily know what they can fly and whether or not it will fit].
Team Speak/Ventrillo[This gives players a communication advantage, is much cheaper than CCPs alternative, and you can connect to it without being in the game[or in fleet/gang/etc], which allows much more robust and fast, uninterrupted communication.]
Alliance/Corp Forums[This gives players a communication and organization advantage not to mention the advantage of a shared community identity]
EveMon[This gives players an auditory signal when their skills finish and allows for planning around various events like downtime. This decreases the amount of time that a character will spend without skills trained and will over the long run, make one character in a set of two with the same ideal build and plan better than the other.]
IRC and other Chat and Message Programs[This gives players ways to communicate with others instantly and speedily without them needing to be on the teamspeak channel.
Cell Phones[Its like chat programs except you can SMS important pilots anywhere in order to gauge participation]
All of these things are third party programs or hardware and most all of them are required to participate in the "high level game".
edit: Oh, and i forgot asset and corp API exports which are also invaluable for doing just about anything. I shouldn't need to elucidate about this.
What is the difference between these programs and BACON? Not much.
You forgot alarm clocks. ...
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:18:00 -
[188]
Cissnei
Quote: 2) my definition of 'griefer' are a) corps that purposefully prey on newbie corps, b) people that drop cans labelled 'free isk' in front of stations in 1.0 space outside of the listed systems this is not allowed - which is r-tarded, because cash for capsuleers isnt done at any of those systems, c) the guy that suicide ganked a corp members shuttle in amarr newbie space last night - a half hour old char in the newbie frigate there are a LOT more examples of griefing, and even more examples of out little true repercussions they have to endure for such asshattery. i'm not saying the game should be safe, but this is just petty trash
I'd actually agree, attacking those kind of targets and using that kind of tactic is pretty sad.
Quote: 3) telling a brand new industrial character to equip crap like cloaks is pretty sad and incredulous. they dont have those skills nor the attributes when they start. what if they are miners? what if they went with the choices that give them industry v and mining v? are they suposed to fit warp stabs and a cloak on that newbie frigate when they dont even have enough engineering and electronics skills to fit more than the civ guns? give me a break. scouts? this is a new player we are talking about. 0.0? who cares about 0.0. when you go to 0.4 and lower it's every person for themselves. i'm talking entirely about high sec only. a real new char who goes into 0.0 has ignored the very first tutorial in the game. or were you really insinuating people should put cloaks on their barges?
Ah well I misunderstood you and was talking 0.0 because thats what the local removal argument is generally aimed at. Speaking personally I think local needs to go from lowsec and 0.0 and needs to stay in hisec so we actually don't have much disagreement there it seems. All my talk of cloaks and scouts and such was with regard to survival in 0.0.
Quote: 4) war decs are too cheap at 2m a week. corps that want to declare war on another should have the money to maintain it. this would do two real things - firstly it would be somewhat of a discouragement from high sec monkey corps who only prey on mining/industrial corps they see as easy targets as it simply wont be profitable enough if they all decide to leave the corp or hole up in the station ...
My preferred solution to nonsense wardecs is actually throwing these things into the player area and making the mercenary profession more attractive and accountable + lets look at actual objectives in wars that have genuine results and impacts on the participants. If a nonsense war ends in a loss for the attacker they should pay a penalty in my view - what penalty and how to define "loss" those are questions we have to ask.
Quote: 5) your comment about my suggestion to limit when you can rejoin a player corp after leaving one is also nonsense.
We'll have to disagree on this one. I don't think its reasonable to prevent players from joining other player corps on leaving existing ones. This is a social game and its not reasonable to force people back to the npc corps rather than allowing them to transfer directly.
Quote: on real hardcore korean mmorpg's where all they do is camp newbies in the newbie area, most of them dont let you join a guild after you leave one for quite a while. this is to prevent what eve is currently plagued with - tons of small corps that change damn near hourly.
There are other solutions - clear up old defunct corps, make inability to wardec for X period a function of "losing" wars. Enhance the reporting/oversight tools, make it easier to highlight or screen out corp hoppers in recruiting - show the performance stats of corps. Give different roles and focus for empire pvpers, transferable kill rights is a big one - let those new players sell their kill rights for big isk ... etc etc. Fight griefing with good ideas not blunt instruments.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Arduron
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:18:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Eronysis Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 16:46:37 Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 16:42:13 ShowEQ accessed the stack...Everquest had an open user interface written in XML, it allowed for lots and lots of alerts,timer and automations. This trend has since been inherited by almost every successful MMO save this one... I would say poor example.
I disagree on your point that the EQ situation was a bad example. Perhaps not a perfect example, but I think it adequately illustrates the idea I was suggesting:
ShowEQ did not access the stack (if you are using that term to refer to peeking at memory in the client). At least not the version I am talking about. However I do agree it used "non public" means to access the data. At the time EQ was NOT an open interface. And did not allow any extensions. ShowEQ was a linux app that ran on a separate machine which monitored network traffic passively. In order to figure out the data it needed.
At the time EQ was not an extensible interface. They added that option after the ban of ShowEQ in order to facilitate "legitimate" enhancements without the need for 3rd party apps. (and they implemented a mapping/navigation option to allow for the justifiable portion of the showeq functionality).
I agree it is not the same thing as our current situtation with bacon. But I am simply using it as an example to point out a past case where to following occurred: - A community found the justifiable need for a new tool due to something missing from their game. - The community developed a 3rd party tool to implement the functionality they needed - The tool became overblown and overstepped the boundaries (in addition to offering unfair advantage over those not using it). - The developer recognized this need, filled the need with a more regulated, and more balanced approach - The developer banned said 3rd party tool, removing the unbalance.
That is all that I am talking about. As I said, I think there is some justifiable need for improved spatial awareness tools. Improved scanner interfaces, or simply a window that allows you to see people in the current system with filters. I don't care if it is implimented in a way that requires new skills/investments to use (in fact I encourage that method of solving this problem, as it maintains balance). But in the end, people need a method to achieve that goal. They are filling it with a 3rd party tool now, which destroys balance because those not able/willing to use said tool are now at a disadvantage. In addition it circumvents ingame mechanics for that ability.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:37:00 -
[190]
Many people are really off base here.
Local already provides a visual cue the instant a hostile enters the system.
BACON changes that to an audio cue.
BFD, TBH.
The issue is that you are immediately provided the information that a hostile has entered the system in the first place. Whether that information is presented to you as a visual cue, or an audio cue or maybe your controller rumbles or the smell of baking bread wafts out of your headset is all irrelevent.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:40:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Ulstan Many people are really off base here.
You are missing the bigger picture. It is the potential of the tool, rather than the tool itself.
Even the stuff that was removed from BACON before public release is enough to see why it should be stopped.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:44:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ulstan Many people are really off base here.
You are missing the bigger picture. It is the potential of the tool, rather than the tool itself.
Even the stuff that was removed from BACON before public release is enough to see why it should be stopped.
Not really, the stuff wasn't removed for the reasons you think it was. At least if i've heard right. But due to forum rules i cannot divulge that info.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:58:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Winterblink on 21/04/2008 17:59:13
Delaying saving the logs for five minutes would get interesting. In the meantime, all that data sits where, in memory? Sitting in a station somewhere is one thing, but how much delayed data would sit resident in say, a fleet fight of sizable proportion?
Or is it just the specific bits of data related to people coming and going from system that would get delayed?
Either way, adding to the memory usage glut doesn't seem like a great idea at all.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:21:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
Originally by: Erotic Irony This thread just confirms how dim witted and self-absorbed the eve community is in confronting the substance of Guomindong's claims. Stay in school.
Hello I am better than you, therefore I don't have to provide substance in my posts.
Your input and mine is irrelevant, the only question is whether this is permissible not whether or not you or I like it.
Since it is, this entire "discussion" is a troll thread plagued by ad homs and selfish partisans trying to speak with authority. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:22:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 18:25:58 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 18:25:26 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/04/2008 18:24:26
Originally by: Erotic Irony This thread just confirms how dim witted and self-absorbed the eve community is in confronting the substance of Guomindong's claims.
Stay in school.
Considering that you have not offered any rebuttals whatsoever, that comment is dim witted actually.
Originally by: Winterblink
Delaying saving the logs for five minutes would get interesting. In the meantime, all that data sits where, in memory? Sitting in a station somewhere is one thing, but how much delayed data would sit resident in say, a fleet fight of sizable proportion?
Not too much, really, most likely <10 MB max, even with something preety sizeable as 100-ish entries per second. You could make it size-bound, so that you push up to, say, 5MB of logs and then you dump it to disk (I do logging for a few things that way).
The only real disadvantage of that is that if the entire machine crashes, you lose the last 5MB worth of logs, which is admittedly a pain. Could be fixed without exposing data in plain form though, but requires some thinking about it.
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Your input and mine is irrelevant, the only question is whether this is permissible not whether or not you or I like it.
Thread is about asking CSM candidates think about it (are they against it or not). Not wether it's permissible or not. Just read the thread title + OP.
I would like to read what other candidates think about this.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:40:00 -
[196]
Why would I rebut what makes logical sense to me? You seem to have misunderstood what I said, that in the absence of real claims there is a chorus of "I don't like it!", hysteria and slippery slope inferences.
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Your input and mine is irrelevant, the only question is whether this is permissible not whether or not you or I like it.
Thread is about asking CSM candidates think about it (are they against it or not). Not wether it's permissible or not. Just read the thread title + OP.
I would like to read what other candidates think about this.
Do you know what a leading question is?
The OP is being blatantly pedantic and you're eating it up. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:51:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Ulstan Many people are really off base here.
Local already provides a visual cue the instant a hostile enters the system.
BACON changes that to an audio cue.
Your explanation of BACON's functionality is incomplete.
BACON filters the data provided by local, according to pre-defined criteria, presenting to the user only the data that is relevant to them, in real time.
This removes the need for the player to scan and evaluate the data for themselves, making BACON a substantial alteration to game mechanics.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Doonoo Boonoo
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:03:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Cissnei Edited by: Cissnei on 21/04/2008 14:48:06
2) my definition of 'griefer' are a) corps that purposefully prey on newbie corps, b) people that drop cans labelled 'free isk' in front of stations in 1.0 space outside of the listed systems this is not allowed - which is r-tarded, because cash for capsuleers isnt done at any of those systems, c) the guy that suicide ganked a corp members shuttle in amarr newbie space last night - a half hour old char in the newbie frigate
a)Non applicable.Part of the game as stipulated by CCP.
b)Already classed as 'griefing' and not tolerated.
c)1 person ganks a 1 day old character.Obviously whoever did it was being an arse hat but hardly an epidemic.Newbie lost a shuttle btw.
Originally by: Cissnei
there are a LOT more examples of griefing, and even more examples of out little true repercussions they have to endure for such asshattery.
Like what?Bearing in mind your earlier 'non applicable' definitions of 'griefing'.Do you have any facts or figures that this is rampant in Eve or are you merely spreading your own brand of paranoia and hysteria.
Originally by: Cissnei
4) war decs are too cheap at 2m a week. corps that want to declare war on another should have the money to maintain it. this would do two real things - firstly it would be somewhat of a discouragement from high sec monkey corps who only prey on mining/industrial corps they see as easy targets as it simply wont be profitable enough if they all decide to leave the corp or hole up in the station (hence why i recommended the one week between player corp joining to prevent other forms of exploiting this method) and secondly, those that war dec'd would obviously be well off to be able to maintain it and they would be taken more seriously than they are now. 500m isnt much. once yo uget to l4 missions you can do that in a day of hard grinding nearly. there are a ton of posts in the newb forum saying they made 150m in a week or two weeks.
Yet again you seem to be fixated on the fact that just because you are new excludes you from a war dec.If you are in a player corp you are fair game.If you are in a player corp full of newbies then that's your fault.(And whoever made the corp in the 1st place)
Why should Empire PvP only be available to the 'well off' and rich players who can afford 500 mill for a war dec?What about the newer players who want to do this?What about the poor newbie?
Originally by: Cissnei
eve is currently plagued with - tons of small corps that change damn near hourly.
Erm...you are like 3 months old,your ceo is about the same,your corp has 18 members and is recruiting 8 hour old newbies.No offence but you look like a potential 'victim' of everything you are complaining about to me.
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Cissnei
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:34:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo Erm...you are like 3 months old,your ceo is about the same,your corp has 18 members and is recruiting 8 hour old newbies.No offence but you look like a potential 'victim' of everything you are complaining about to me. [/quote
my main was made in june 2005. the newbie that was popped was someones alt. you should read entire sentences
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1717
Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:16:00 -
[200]
While reading through this thread, I thought to myself that EFT was nothing like BACON, and that CCP has been foolish for not immedietly declaring it illegal and banning it from the game. I disagreed with Goumindong's opinion, but tried to see his side of things and have come to the conclusion that they can be comparable.
Bacon allows players to be lazy. It allows them to devote less attention to the game while playing and keeping themselves as safe as they would normally be while watching local. I'm against this. It gives players a meta-gaming advantage that ultimately makes the game less interesting (in my opinion.)
EFT, while not directly interacting with the game in real time, gives a similar advantage to the lazy. Using EFT, even the lazy can put together great ship fits with little effort (no, the program can't tell you what will actually happen when you use the ship in combat but it gives you a pretty decent idea of what a ship's general capabilities are.) Without this tool, one would have to do quite a bit of homework/paperwork and testing to see just how effective a given ship build would be. How many do you think would want to do such work/ressearch to get an optimal fit? I would guess not as many that use EFT, at least. This means less people would be flying around with ship setups as good as those willing to manually hammer out nice fits.
My point is that while Bacon does nothing (again, in my opinion) but give players a meta-gaming advantage, EFT too gives many players something that they might not have taken advantage of on their own. This is comparable to the Bacon monitoring local like a machine arguement. I don't think they're on the same level, but there's something to be said for 3rd party tools being used to optimize one's game time and cutting out effort normally only emlpoyed by few gamers.
I think CSM Candidates should take things like this into consideration when debating issues involving tools like Bacon, as it's not a farcy from what's currently available. eve-online.com |
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Breha Organa
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Posted - 2008.04.22 05:08:00 -
[201]
I've been reading all the posts to this topic with interest... and if I understand people correctly, we are trying to determine if software such as BACON and others are merely a tactic or an exploit. Ventrilo/TS software provides people with a tactical advantage... but is not something that inhibits the gameplay of others. There is nothing inherently wrong with trying to gain a tactical advantage in a game. When that attempt deliberately interferes with the opponents' ability to act/react in normal game play... then it is an exploit and should be stopped or added to the EULA as a prohibited activity. IMHO - candidate for CSM
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Space Explorer
Minmatar Evil Fluffy Bunnies
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:52:00 -
[202]
It's time for Punkbuster fps style in Eve.
http://www.evenbalance.com/index.php
o/ |
Stratten
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:52:00 -
[203]
I stated before, I dont think bacon itself really is much of an issue, the issue lies in the use of the data from the log files. You can't compare evemon, eft, or even teamspeak to this situation since they do not use the log files which contain the vast amounts of real-time in-game information. The issue of local does not apply either since it is a function of the game, not a manipulation of the data stream as bacon is.
Originally by: fuze
Do you have any examples? It might be OT but on the other hand knowing more about this will contribute to this discussion.
This is one example and a very important one to consider. This is only one facet of the data in those logs. The concerns I have are the possibilities that may already be in place, or could be abused by such software.
Originally by: Avon
In a previous post I mentioned that I was aware of at least one in-depth use of log server monitoring. Let me go in to a little more detail before you all write BACON off as unimportant. The system in question parsed gamelogs, and added the entries to a database. The logs were generated by no-skill alts, just sitting in certain systems, but it could have been expanded to use logs from every player in an alliance. It generated a list of players, their corps and alliances, their movements û everything you could want. It also plotted it all nicely on maps on a web-page, so you could see who was where, where they had been, how many, what direction, everything. You could search the database for statistics on anyone who had been logged.
As you can see these applications have been experimented with already, and no-one seems to want to answer what exactly the possibilities are. Naturally if there is an edge, those that have it wont give it up. Instead we have the debate focus spreading into the "what about eft, what about local, what about teamspeak" which are completely seperate from the issue.
Again, to focus on the topic here I'm curious if the candidates had this question presented differently how they would answer.
Do you as a candidate approve of the use of log file software to the game?
Think hard though because in my opinion if you say yes, you approve all of and including, the worst possible software outcomes with the answer. (which are probably already in place and unknown to most, or yet to be designed with unbalancing intentions in mind. Can be very very bad for the game overall, if you think of the possibilities this type of data mining allows)
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Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 09:07:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Stratten
Do you as a candidate approve of the use of log file software to the game?
My position has not altered on this. I made a post yesterday morning regarding it here if you'd like to read it.
Hat's off to Gunfleet for being as honest and as open as the day is long. I'm almost certain they didn't mean for this to blow up into an issue of such epic proportions.
To summarise though. Bacon is the tip of the iceberg. It's open source and given the fact that a similar application was available for some time, coding ability is not a problem for elements of the Eve community. This is now a handy framework for other log parsers to be created from.
It is only a matter of time before other applications based on reading the log files will be made available. There are already test versions being made that automatically quit the game when hostiles enter local. It's not a huge stretch to think that other functions can be written based on parsing log files.
Just because it is possible to do something that doesn't technically break the rules doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do.
My opinion is that CCP needs to either encrypt the logserver output via key pairing, restrict output to harmless information or use another solution entirely to render log readers unusable.
EvE blogspace, free! Max Torps CSM Candidate |
Breha Organa
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Posted - 2008.04.22 16:01:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Stratten I stated before, I dont think bacon itself really is much of an issue, the issue lies in the use of the data from the log files. You can't compare evemon, eft, or even teamspeak to this situation since they do not use the log files which contain the vast amounts of real-time in-game information. The issue of local does not apply either since it is a function of the game, not a manipulation of the data stream as bacon is.
Thank-you Stratten and Avon for a clear description of BACON and the underlying code. My campaign website states my background and my Computer Science expertise. Therefore, this issue does cause concern for me. The manipulation of data that ought to be encrypted somehow or at the very least inaccessible to the player *is* in my opinion something for which there is no middle ground.
Assuming that the BACON software does in fact access these log files, then it should be banned. Great job for getting the information here, and clearly stating the problem.
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