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Bellum Eternus
Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:19:00 -
[1]
Stupid forums ate my original post.
tl;dr version: was watching the dev interviews during the 5th Alliance Tournament. Oveur says "when the chat becomes an intel tool, it's a problem". Well, quite frankly, local has *always* been an intel tool since it has existed. If it's that fundamental of a problem, change it already.
Swap local/constellation chat functionality: force players to appear in constellation chat, and only appear in local if they speak. Problem solved. Minimum of coding. No new stuff required.
You guys (the devs) can't use the excuse that you don't like to make radical changes to the game: you removed instas and introduced WTZ. Can't get much more radical than that.
It's high time you removed local. It breaks so many things currently, and is partly responsible for many of the problems we currently have: the Jita situation, massive blob warfare, complete lack of stealth/sneak attacks, ISK farmers... the list goes on.
The dev team asks for constructive posts over and over. I submit that this post is entirely constructive, as I've stated the problem, and the solution, and the factors that contribute to the problem and how the solution would resolve the issue.
Thanks in advance, looking forward to constellation chat.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:23:00 -
[2]
Couldn't this possibly create big lag problems in empire space? I could see the Constellation chat reach a thousand or more people. aside from that, it seems like a good idea to me. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:23:00 -
[3]
Just remember this cuts both ways. When you are the fleet lying in wait you hate it but when 100 ships do a logon in your home system you want to know they are there.
And what about pilots in space on the map? A bit lagged and not super reliable but it is an intel tool. Been times when I ninjaed my way into 0.0 and people came looking because they saw 1 ship in a system on the map. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:27:00 -
[4]
Just because they implemented WTZ doesn't mean they like to make big changes. It also doesn't mean they should rush into things before properly assessing, coding, and bug testing (hah yea right) a change.
I don't like local, but I don't want it to be changed to constellation without giving ships better scanning tools. If you're suggesting they immediately scrap local for constellation without changing anything else, then you probably haven't read the discussions about it or don't understand the consequences, and I don't agree with you.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:30:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 18/03/2008 23:31:21 I suggested constellation / local switch around last year. It was met with a luke warm response.
There are many issues why it's good and bad.
But nothing actual discussion can't hammer out.
Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
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Alski
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:31:00 -
[6]
Any form of removing local as an intel tool needs to come in the form of something that: A- does not require every player to spam the directional scanner constantly, creating yet more lag and being a pain to use. B- identifies friend from foe.
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Bellum Eternus
Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tarminic Couldn't this possibly create big lag problems in empire space? I could see the Constellation chat reach a thousand or more people. aside from that, it seems like a good idea to me.
Rookie chat has 3-4 *thousand* in it at any one time. The system can handle that, it should be able to handle constellation chat. I mean, it already exists, people are in it regardless if they think they are or not. They're just not chatting in it.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Traeon
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:33:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Traeon on 18/03/2008 23:33:40 Local is both intel tool and communication tool. That's why it's difficult to find a good solution.
A toggle to switch between being visible/invisible in local could perhaps be a step in the right direction. Corp and alliance members should always see each other in local.
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local orb
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:34:00 -
[9]
if you have a constillation chat, im going to be docking 3 jumps before you even get close to where im carebearing. You ever think of that ?
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Tarminic Couldn't this possibly create big lag problems in empire space? I could see the Constellation chat reach a thousand or more people. aside from that, it seems like a good idea to me.
Rookie chat has 3-4 *thousand* in it at any one time. The system can handle that, it should be able to handle constellation chat. I mean, it already exists, people are in it regardless if they think they are or not. They're just not chatting in it.
True, but Rookie Chat is only a single channel - I don't know exactly how many constellations there are in Caldari space, but I imagine it would be at least a dozen channels with a thousand in each. However, I don't really know how much lag chat channels actually cause... ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
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Bellum Eternus
Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Frug Just because they implemented WTZ doesn't mean they like to make big changes. It also doesn't mean they should rush into things before properly assessing, coding, and bug testing (hah yea right) a change.
I don't like local, but I don't want it to be changed to constellation without giving ships better scanning tools. If you're suggesting they immediately scrap local for constellation without changing anything else, then you probably haven't read the discussions about it or don't understand the consequences, and I don't agree with you.
We already have awesome scanning tools: 20 and 40 AU probes, Observator probes that can scan entire systems. Granted, I think that the probe strengths need to be buffed quite a bit so that you can get consistant returns on what is out there, but FFS, that's the point of Covert Ops ships: doing recon and gathering intel.
Of course I've read the discussions and understand the concequences. And I still want it changed. Heck, I'm even pointing out how to replace the existing functionality of local chat (maintaining human contact with your other surrounding residents) with a simple and easy fix.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:36:00 -
[12]
Ignore Oveur, he tends to turn his back on his convictions if there is the slightest moan.
Shame really.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Bellum Eternus
Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:37:00 -
[13]
Originally by: local orb if you have a constillation chat, im going to be docking 3 jumps before you even get close to where im carebearing. You ever think of that ?
They (carebears) already do. No big change there. And people have to undock eventually. Otherwise, have fun browsing the market while I'm AFK.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Bellum Eternus
Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Avon Ignore Oveur, he tends to turn his back on his convictions if there is the slightest moan.
Shame really.
So true. *sigh*. On that note, I was thinking about changing WTZ to 5km instead. I wonder if that would be an acceptable compromise? Crap, I'm derailing my own thread.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Krats
The Pioneers
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:40:00 -
[15]
I really liked Cailais' solution, where local chat was based on range from ship and lower sec status systems had shorter range. Seemed like a very elegant compromise.
If the server was having to calculate relative ranges of all people in system it would obviously cause lag but perhaps it could be implemented relative to the grid you're in? -
Nooo! The cake can't be a lie!!
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Pooka
United Space Aillance USA
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Avon Ignore Oveur, he tends to turn his back on his convictions if there is the slightest moan.
Shame really.
Hope not. He promised me personally during the Vegas gathering that ther would all ways be a place in EVE for solo players and care bears!!! And it didn't even cost me a beer for him to say that!
PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT BRING THE BRIGHT STAR BACK!!!
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Pan Crastus
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:43:00 -
[17]
Removing local would be a radical change, but it might solve the blobbing problem (you could use multiple fleets effectively to surprise the enemy).
I fear that the lag improvement from removing it will be compensated by the increase in scanning though ...
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Soporo
Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:52:00 -
[18]
This change would ONLY benefit the gank. Period. The Gank, the Agressor already has the most obvious advantages over defense. Mining would suffer enormously, in fact it would be the biggest mining nerf ever. Who else has to sit in one friggin palce for so long to get his work done? As an aside, a no-local implementation would ensure no mining in LawlzLowSec, forever.
If you can't see this then you don't mine, prat, pvp or are lying. Cheers.
________________________________________________
"We can't reimburse ships due to server meltdowns because our service is so frickin unstable we get thousands of reimburse petitions daily". |
Sky Marshal
Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:54:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 18/03/2008 23:56:07
As stated in much threads, remove local will generate more disadvantages than profits, and I think that way too.
Quote: You guys (the devs) can't use the excuse that you don't like to make radical changes to the game: you removed instas and introduced WTZ. Can't get much more radical than that.
Radical ? Before this modification, much people sold BM packs to everyone for a small cost, and if you was not too dumb, you bought them, or created them yourself to reduce the very annoying travel time.
WTZ changes nothing radically, only correct a curious situation where WTZ existed unofficialy. ____
14/20 Revelations : Desyncs... 11/20 Trinity : BBSOD, Bugs, Desyncs, F*** Nerfs 10/20 1.1 : [...] + EXP shield nerf 07/20 ½ Not a single nerf + : What ?!?
CCP is the real problem of EVE. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tarminic Couldn't this possibly create big lag problems in empire space? I could see the Constellation chat reach a thousand or more people. aside from that, it seems like a good idea to me.
Simple fix: you don't have to have constellation open to appear in it to everyone else.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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Uncle George
Super Chickens
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Stupid forums ate my original post.
Yea. It's the dumb idea filter .
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Burnharder
Tiny Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Stupid forums ate my original post.
tl;dr version: was watching the dev interviews during the 5th Alliance Tournament. Oveur says "when the chat becomes an intel tool, it's a problem". Well, quite frankly, local has *always* been an intel tool since it has existed. If it's that fundamental of a problem, change it already.
Swap local/constellation chat functionality: force players to appear in constellation chat, and only appear in local if they speak. Problem solved. Minimum of coding. No new stuff required.
You guys (the devs) can't use the excuse that you don't like to make radical changes to the game: you removed instas and introduced WTZ. Can't get much more radical than that.
It's high time you removed local. It breaks so many things currently, and is partly responsible for many of the problems we currently have: the Jita situation, massive blob warfare, complete lack of stealth/sneak attacks, ISK farmers... the list goes on.
The dev team asks for constructive posts over and over. I submit that this post is entirely constructive, as I've stated the problem, and the solution, and the factors that contribute to the problem and how the solution would resolve the issue.
Thanks in advance, looking forward to constellation chat.
imho, if you want to remove local, just minimise the window.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.18 23:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Avon Ignore Oveur, he tends to turn his back on his convictions if there is the slightest moan.
Shame really.
So true. *sigh*. On that note, I was thinking about changing WTZ to 5km instead. I wonder if that would be an acceptable compromise? Crap, I'm derailing my own thread.
People would still make instas. I would.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.19 00:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Soporo This change would ONLY benefit the gank. Period. The Gank, the Agressor already has the most obvious advantages over defense. Mining would suffer enormously, in fact it would be the biggest mining nerf ever. Who else has to sit in one friggin palce for so long to get his work done? As an aside, a no-local implementation would ensure no mining in LawlzLowSec, forever.
If you can't see this then you don't mine, prat, pvp or are lying. Cheers.
Wait so miners can see hostiles appear from several jumps away and this hurts them?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Bellum Eternus
Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.19 00:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Burnharder
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Stupid forums ate my original post.
tl;dr version: was watching the dev interviews during the 5th Alliance Tournament. Oveur says "when the chat becomes an intel tool, it's a problem". Well, quite frankly, local has *always* been an intel tool since it has existed. If it's that fundamental of a problem, change it already.
Swap local/constellation chat functionality: force players to appear in constellation chat, and only appear in local if they speak. Problem solved. Minimum of coding. No new stuff required.
You guys (the devs) can't use the excuse that you don't like to make radical changes to the game: you removed instas and introduced WTZ. Can't get much more radical than that.
It's high time you removed local. It breaks so many things currently, and is partly responsible for many of the problems we currently have: the Jita situation, massive blob warfare, complete lack of stealth/sneak attacks, ISK farmers... the list goes on.
The dev team asks for constructive posts over and over. I submit that this post is entirely constructive, as I've stated the problem, and the solution, and the factors that contribute to the problem and how the solution would resolve the issue.
Thanks in advance, looking forward to constellation chat.
imho, if you want to remove local, just minimise the window.
I tried that, but my arm isn't long enough to reach your keyboard.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
EveJoker
Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.03.19 00:01:00 -
[26]
You will still have a rough idea of how many are in local.
100 - start noticing lag 200 - 10-20s module lag 300 - 5-10m module lag 400+ - nodecrash
Quite clearly lag can be used as an intel tool too. Fix the lag!
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Burnharder
Tiny Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.19 00:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I tried that, but my arm isn't long enough to reach your keyboard.
AHAAAAA!!!! What you want is an easier target. Well, that's understandable. Think about it. If you are going to remove local, you have to:
(1) randomise the location of ores/complexes/other interesting currently static content (2) remove the "people in space", "docked and active" stats from the map (3) provide an alternative intel tool (anchorable sensor for example)
and that's all I can think of, right now, in my current tired and nauseous state. I'll think of some more in a mo.... actually probably tomorrow.
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Brea Lafail
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.19 00:09:00 -
[28]
The only people who want to remove Local as an intel tool are skill-less PvPers who want free ganks.
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Alyx Alyn
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.19 00:10:00 -
[29]
WTZ was not a "radical" change to EVE. It was implemented because *everyone* was already doing it with instabookmarks.
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BLACKBAN
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.19 00:13:00 -
[30]
Swaping Local to constellation will increase the problem. Because not the enemy will safe spot as soon as you are in the constellation, instead of seeing you in local, and it will omit the need of having scouts 1 jump out.
So removing Local is a good damn idea. Replacing it with Constellation chat is the worst thing that can ever happen to EVE
What needs to happen here is for Local to be removed, and New modules to increase max range scan to be added, maybe a dedicated BC ships for that, Not frigates because than they will be used for scouting one easy mode.
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