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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.11.02 20:13:00 -
[331]
There are a lot of things about this change which, in conjunction with other rumored changes to 0.0 logistics, makes HELL of a lot of sense.
The changes I'm thinking of are: 1. This one... 2. Compression change... 3. Carrier cargo change...
The main deficiency of 0.0 today is that the only thing that really goes on there, is fighting, ratting or exploring. There's no mining/trading or production of significance, since its much easier to import mineral from empire where you have an endless amount of macro-miners willing to slave away.
Implementing these changes will have a lot of good effects on the GAME, though it may be harsh on a number of current alliances. It being hard on some alliances is ok, after all, you can't make an omelet without it being hard on a few eggs either.
The main benefits coming from this are: 1. It'll force alliances to control a much smaller area. All the complaints are basically from a point of view that 'we-want-to-control-a-massive-number-of-regions'... Having one alliance control that much territory is bad for the game, since it doesn't leave any space in 0.0 for smaller, newer alliances that want to get in. 2. If the transport of minerals from high-sec is more or less shut down, it'll make a lot of ISK-farmers children very hungry. I think we can all agree on the very positive nature of that... 3. If the transport of mineral from high-sec becomes too cumbersome, 0.0 alliances will be FORCED to start taking other people than just PvP'ers. They'll HAVE to let miners/traders/builders/etc. into their areas, and to protect them just like any 'empire' should do. Maybe it'll finally turn 0.0 into true, independent player-run empires, not just PvP arenas. 4. It'll make POS-spamming a much more cumbersome tactic. It may also in general reduce the number of POS in the game making POS warfare less boring.
And, all the people saying that 'in-6-months-we'll-be-back-at-the-same-point-with-jump-freighters' are forgetting a number of very important points. 1. It only holds 1/4 (?) the cargo of a freighter. 2. It costs (afaik) 2.7 times the amount of fuel a carrier uses to jump it. 3. It only has 2/3 of the range of a carrier. 4. The skill requirements are MUCH higher than a freighter/carrier. All this together should suffice to keep the number of them relatively low, and even if they reach the same numbers, the cost, range and cargo reduction would still make them have much less impact.
In short, seen from a GAME perspective, this could have a very good outcome once the hysterical screaming of current big-landowner alliances fades away. No single alliance should be able to control so large a part of what is after all a limited resource in EVE, this being 0.0 space. If an alliance holds more than 1, 2 or MAYBE 3 (if its a very big alliance), then it just shuts a lot of other players out of that part of the game. That's not a good thing.... Anything that helps prevent this (like the above mentioned changes) is GOOD!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kilostream
Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.02 20:26:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Kheldon Fel
Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID
HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME
etc
Quote this if you're down
/quoted /signed
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.11.02 20:26:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Grayton This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your ******* POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics.
You contradicting yourself here.....
All POS stay up.... Logistics guys burn out.... POS doesn't stay up....
This (together with the other cargo nerfs) WILL reduce the number of POS up, and WILL reduce the amount of territory a 0.0 alliance can hold on a per member basis. This is VERY good for the game!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Mark Amarr
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.02 20:28:00 -
[334]
Originally by: Kheldon Fel
Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID
HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME
etc
Quote this if you're down
/signed
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2007.11.02 20:43:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays.
CCP, you really are a bunch of wimps. Grow some freaking balls.
Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.02 20:47:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn
Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays.
CCP, you really are a bunch of wimps. Grow some freaking balls.
Most successful companies pay attention when they release a product and their customers all refuse to buy/purchase/renew contracts/etc.
MMO's are no different.
Liang
-- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
SkyLander
Minmatar Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.11.02 21:01:00 -
[337]
Edited by: SkyLander on 02/11/2007 21:02:30
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Grayton This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your ******* POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics.
You contradicting yourself here.....
All POS stay up.... Logistics guys burn out.... POS doesn't stay up....
This (together with the other cargo nerfs) WILL reduce the number of POS up, and WILL reduce the amount of territory a 0.0 alliance can hold on a per member basis. This is VERY good for the game!
Look who is calling who contradicting. Logistics guys burn out means less people playing, less people paying, less money going into the game. Game becomes more work to keep POSs up. People will move into empire because life in 0.0 becomes more of a pain than it already is. So less people for you to shoot short of war deccing. What is the point of going into 0.0 space then short of ratting.
So no, it isn't very good for the game. __________________________________________________
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.02 21:05:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shadowsword Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game?
Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing.
I don't think it would work. By now most big entities moved to a feudal-like model. A lot of big alliances already own more space that is needed for their size. But, by renting said space to smaller corps/alliances, the big ones can always use more and more space. As long as they have the military muscle, and mobility, they can still expand.
What will it really do, if POS are harder to keep fueled? Big alliances will focus on sovereignty POS, and rent mining POS, or won't use all the valuable ressources of controlled regions.
Quote:
It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve).
There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change.
Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again.
/me shrugs.
Logistics would be more dangerous, yes, which is a relatively good thing, but the grind and sheer time involved would far outweight the benefit, imho. 0.0 space has no need to be made more tedious, compared to empire. ------------------------------------------
What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Futher Bezluden
Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.02 21:28:00 -
[339]
Frieghter Nerf Carrier Nerf Rorqual Nerf 6b+ Jump Freighter
CCP sure wants people moving out to 0.0 don't they. CCP screws up 0.0, lets all blob Jita with 10k people to pay final respects to what was a good game.
Ultima Online once laughed at people threatening to leave... all games do until it happens. CCP, if you are going to completely **** off your EVE players, do it AFTER your "Hello Werewolf Adventure Island" is out and doing well. THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Skeet Skeet L33t |
jongalt
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Posted - 2007.11.02 21:28:00 -
[340]
kerfira,
i am in complete agreement with your point of view.
-jg.
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Alias11
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.02 21:38:00 -
[341]
futher i declare war on your sig.
also itt people don't know the difference between challenging/exciting and tedious as hell
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.11.02 23:51:00 -
[342]
Originally by: SkyLander
Originally by: Kerfira My stuff....
Look who is calling who contradicting. Logistics guys burn out means less people playing, less people paying, less money going into the game. Game becomes more work to keep POSs up. People will move into empire because life in 0.0 becomes more of a pain than it already is. So less people for you to shoot short of war deccing. What is the point of going into 0.0 space then short of ratting.
So no, it isn't very good for the game.
You're not thinking this through.... AND you're thinking VERY short-term (rather than burn out, people would adjust so they didn't).
You're going from the (false) assumptions that: 1. Alliances absolutely HAS to claim the same amount of territory as today. 2. Alliances absolutely HAS to transport minerals/fuel from empire.
These couldn't be true if empire->0.0 mass hauling got nerfed, and they are in fact descriptive of some of what is WRONG with 0.0 today!
It IS too easy to claim huge amounts of space. This leads to too little 0.0 space being available for smaller alliances.
It IS too easy to fuel said space by empire imports. This leads to 0.0 being a barren PvP wasteland only and not fully thriving economies. Moving mining and production to 0.0 is not going to be doable by words and fine intentions. It's going to require a fair amount of stick to!
Some logistics people may indeed burn out if their alliances tries to overdo what they can manage (though I think a far more realistic outcome is quick territory downsizings), but even if that happens it is a small price to pay for the benefits such a change would bring. We're not talking even 100's of players here, but maybe max. 10-20'ish who'll leave....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.11.03 00:00:00 -
[343]
Edited by: Kerfira on 03/11/2007 00:00:57 And oh, by the way....
0.0 was thriving before there was freighters, titans and POS jump-bridges in the game! No reason why it can't do so again!
It even had better developed economies then than today. A hauler spawn was a treasure immediately warranting alliance wide attention! Cooperative mining ops were needed to supply the alliances with what they needed! Putting up an outpost was a REAL accomplishment, something to feel proud of because it was a true effort! These aspects of alliance life got squashed when easy import became possible and left 0.0 a more limited place afterwards.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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debbbzzz
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Posted - 2007.11.03 00:09:00 -
[344]
It really wasnt that long ago when we had warp to 15km on gates , and all logistical events to 0.0 envolved defense / scouting..
I dont like the idea of not being able to get huge quantities of gear out to 0.0 easily as I have some of these ships that are being nerfed.
But!! I do think this is a good idea none the less .
living in 0.0 shouldnt be too easy , and attacking supply lines should be easier than relying on taking down a jump bridge on a deathstar pos.
/me waits for the local 0.0 market prices to reflect the difficulty in getting the stuff out there in the first place.
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.11.03 01:07:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Most successful companies pay attention when they release a product and their customers all refuse to buy/purchase/renew contracts/etc.
MMO's are no different.
Liang
Not if customers are whining kiddies whose irrational demands could spell doom for the whole in the long run, if fulfilled. It's a choice between losing some now, or losing many in the future. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2007.11.03 02:19:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Karina Bellac Edited by: Karina Bellac on 02/11/2007 15:07:53
Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays.
Good backtrack. It's just a bug. That extra '0' just slipped into the data in a freak replication bug. Glad it only took 10 pages to bring this bug to your attention.
I doubt it as that would be 2 bugs, one extra zero in mass and another extra zero in agility to compensate. I don't believe in such coincidences.
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infinityshok
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Posted - 2007.11.03 04:36:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn
Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays.
CCP, you really are a bunch of wimps. Grow some freaking balls.
I congratulate you on your own showing of balls when your own incorrect opinion is in the minority.
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Samurai XII
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Posted - 2007.11.03 04:39:00 -
[348]
This is PART II of the big move to make people quit EVE = less lag for the noobs that are left! ______________________ Just another cool alt. |
Kryton Bitterstar
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Posted - 2007.11.03 05:54:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Kryton Bitterstar on 03/11/2007 05:55:27 if this goes through. they better freaking give hauler pilots cb radio channels and semi truck horns.
edit: btw LFW after patch! you pay i HAUL ... and i aint cheap!
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HydroSan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.03 06:40:00 -
[350]
Originally by: debbbzzz
living in 0.0 shouldnt be too easy
BUT IT ISN'T
It's mind-numbing, soul crushingly hard for anyone who does any kind of logistics.
For christs sake, shut up.
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Kublai Khan
Caldari TAOSP Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.03 06:50:00 -
[351]
Heh, maybe CCP would get more customers because more ppl could now dwell in 0.0 space and populate that instead of being stuck in empire running missions or mining veldespar.
But I think the nerf should come with extras for 0.0 tho to make it easier to live there and supply your alliance from 0.0 instead of hauling everything you need from empire. Heck, might even make it less pro*****ble to be a macro miner in empire as well if 0.0 could get its own trit quicker than today...
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.03 08:11:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Pac SubCom
Not if customers are whining kiddies whose irrational demands could spell doom for the whole in the long run, if fulfilled. It's a choice between losing some now, or losing many in the future.
Sure, that's always going to be true. However, most new business is arrived at via word of mouth. The word of mouth would be "God this game is un-*******-believably-boring"
Fortunately, they called off the dogs on this nerf.
Liang
-- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Varrakk
Chosen Path
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Posted - 2007.11.03 08:56:00 -
[353]
It was as I suspected, carrier SMB/freighter is to reduce the max size on alliance space.
Is it going to work? Hell no! Just going **** off alot of people
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.11.03 09:16:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Varrakk It was as I suspected, carrier SMB/freighter is to reduce the max size on alliance space.
Is it going to work? Hell no! Just going **** off alot of people
In which case, we're no worse off than today!
For sure it's not going to solve itself if CCP doesn't do anything.
And the amount of people ****ed off IS already great, ie. the people who would like to live in 0.0, but can't find a corner to do so in because its all taken! Making those happy at the cost of a few logistics people? Good trade!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Sapater
Minmatar Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.11.03 09:22:00 -
[355]
OK comming from a Loggie in rl and in eve(4 years) I see where they are going with this. Its about time they forced aliances to realy exploit 0.0 ATM its all about posses which are used to mine mins for t2 prod which are shiped back to emp for production they need to force the aliances to pull out of emp and focus their efforts in 0.0 Protecting their miners and their log chains. In game their are all the facilitys to build in 0.0 but they arnt getting used as much as they would like, instead the chains go all the way back to empire and this was never their intension from the begining. I see its going to hurt for a while and a lot of aliances will have to rethink just due to the Logisitics invloved. In Australia we have faced similer problems for a long time....... so all in all this statement is pretty correct.
Quote: There are a lot of things about this change which, in conjunction with other rumored changes to 0.0 logistics, makes HELL of a lot of sense.
The changes I'm thinking of are: 1. This one... 2. Compression change... 3. Carrier cargo change...
The main deficiency of 0.0 today is that the only thing that really goes on there, is fighting, ratting or exploring. There's no mining/trading or production of significance, since its much easier to import mineral from empire where you have an endless amount of macro-miners willing to slave away.
Implementing these changes will have a lot of good effects on the GAME, though it may be harsh on a number of current alliances. It being hard on some alliances is ok, after all, you can't make an omelet without it being hard on a few eggs either.
The main benefits coming from this are: 1. It'll force alliances to control a much smaller area. All the complaints are basically from a point of view that 'we-want-to-control-a-massive-number-of-regions'... Having one alliance control that much territory is bad for the game, since it doesn't leave any space in 0.0 for smaller, newer alliances that want to get in. 2. If the transport of minerals from high-sec is more or less shut down, it'll make a lot of ISK-farmers children very hungry. I think we can all agree on the very positive nature of that... 3. If the transport of mineral from high-sec becomes too cumbersome, 0.0 alliances will be FORCED to start taking other people than just PvP'ers. They'll HAVE to let miners/traders/builders/etc. into their areas, and to protect them just like any 'empire' should do. Maybe it'll finally turn 0.0 into true, independent player-run empires, not just PvP arenas. 4. It'll make POS-spamming a much more cumbersome tactic. It may also in general reduce the number of POS in the game making POS warfare less boring.
And, all the people saying that 'in-6-months-we'll-be-back-at-the-same-point-with-jump-freighters' are forgetting a number of very important points. 1. It only holds 1/4 (?) the cargo of a freighter. 2. It costs (afaik) 2.7 times the amount of fuel a carrier uses to jump it. 3. It only has 2/3 of the range of a carrier. 4. The skill requirements are MUCH higher than a freighter/carrier. All this together should suffice to keep the number of them relatively low, and even if they reach the same numbers, the cost, range and cargo reduction would still make them have much less impact.
In short, seen from a GAME perspective, this could have a very good outcome once the hysterical screaming of current big-landowner alliances fades away. No single alliance should be able to control so large a part of what is after all a limited resource in EVE, this being 0.0 space. If an alliance holds more than 1, 2 or MAYBE 3 (if its a very big alliance) regions, then it just shuts a lot of other players out of that part of the game. That's not a good thing.... Anything that helps prevent this (like the above mentioned changes) is GOOD!
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Goca
KAOS. Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.11.03 10:25:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Varrakk It was as I suspected, carrier SMB/freighter is to reduce the max size on alliance space.
Is it going to work? Hell no! Just going **** off alot of people
In which case, we're no worse off than today!
For sure it's not going to solve itself if CCP doesn't do anything.
And the amount of people ****ed off IS already great, ie. the people who would like to live in 0.0, but can't find a corner to do so in because its all taken! Making those happy at the cost of a few logistics people? Good trade!
ie: you suck at the game and want CCP to make it easier for you. go play solitare.. more your speed
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Gecko O'Bac
Aquilae Stellaris
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Posted - 2007.11.03 10:40:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Sapater OK comming from a Loggie in rl and in eve(4 years) I see where they are going with this. Its about time they forced aliances to realy exploit 0.0 ATM its all about posses which are used to mine mins for t2 prod which are shiped back to emp for production they need to force the aliances to pull out of emp and focus their efforts in 0.0 Protecting their miners and their log chains. In game their are all the facilitys to build in 0.0 but they arnt getting used as much as they would like, instead the chains go all the way back to empire and this was never their intension from the begining. I see its going to hurt for a while and a lot of aliances will have to rethink just due to the Logisitics invloved. In Australia we have faced similer problems for a long time....... so all in all this statement is pretty correct.
Dunno about your alliance, but I've been in 3 or 4 to the day and I've NEVER seen even ONE alliance industrial player ship his things to empire for production. It was ALL produced locally, either in poses or in outpost facilities. The opposite is true though: since empire products are usually cheaper (mostly due to competition), many empire items are brought from empire to 0.0 space to 1) keep 0.0 prices down 2) bring items not easily producted in 0.0 3) as a mean to earn money (trading).
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Shirei
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.11.03 10:42:00 -
[358]
Edited by: Shirei on 03/11/2007 10:46:35
Originally by: Sapater OK comming from a Loggie in rl and in eve(4 years) I see where they are going with this. Its about time they forced aliances to realy exploit 0.0 ATM its all about posses which are used to mine mins for t2 prod which are shiped back to emp for production they need to force the aliances to pull out of emp and focus their efforts in 0.0 Protecting their miners and their log chains. In game their are all the facilitys to build in 0.0 but they arnt getting used as much as they would like, instead the chains go all the way back to empire and this was never their intension from the begining. I see its going to hurt for a while and a lot of aliances will have to rethink just due to the Logisitics invloved. In Australia we have faced similer problems for a long time....... so all in all this statement is pretty correct.
The thing is - this would turn the nature of EVE completely on its head.
For 3-4 years, EVE (as long as you're in 0.0) has been largely a space PvP game, where you needed to do some logistics to support PvP.
All of these changes move it further towards a space logistics game, where you need to do a bit of PvP to support logistics.
I just wonder, which of the two people would rather play.
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Dominator9987
Minmatar The Shambling Horde
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Posted - 2007.11.03 11:51:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Sammiel Yes, because making 0.0 logistics far far more difficult was the appropriate way to fix an imbalanced trade route.
Eve-mail me if you want some help farming teh isk. Got no problems helping Goons after bob reject me app ;)
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Zeoliter
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.03 12:34:00 -
[360]
Originally by: The Mittani
dis post trolls itself so imma just chill
Will you be chillin' in yaw crib with yaw homies? Busta cap in dat troll, bro. I got chaw back homie. Quote dis is yaw one of Mittani's wiggas and yaw down.
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