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Krist Valentine
Amarr Freelancing Opportunists
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Posted - 2007.10.03 07:34:00 -
[1]
Hey, as you'll all have probably heard about a zillion times over, the nos nerf has basically killed a number of playstyles. The pilgrim, a ship who's only real role among the other recons was that of a good solo ship, can no longer solo for **** due to the fact that to get any cap off the opponent, they need to have no cap themselves.
Would it really be all that bad to just un**** the nos? Or at least change the effect the nerf has had on it to maybe an incremental decrease in energy drained per stacked nos.
I dunno, what do you think?
<flamesuit on> - - - - -
Hey, it's obscene and it's green and it's automatic - I know how to make it seem like it's your fault. |
assassinator mkII
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Posted - 2007.10.03 07:39:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Krist Valentine Hey, as you'll all have probably heard about a zillion times over, the nos nerf has basically killed a number of playstyles. The pilgrim, a ship who's only real role among the other recons was that of a good solo ship, can no longer solo for **** due to the fact that to get any cap off the opponent, they need to have no cap themselves.
Would it really be all that bad to just un**** the nos? Or at least change the effect the nerf has had on it to maybe an incremental decrease in energy drained per stacked nos.
I dunno, what do you think?
<flamesuit on>
i think that nos was nerfed because its not ment to be a primary wepon. i mean its in engerning equipment its was so powerfull that it was used as a a primary so it makes sense that the nerfed it. dont get me wronge i am sad that they did but it makes sense
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.10.03 07:41:00 -
[3]
The nos change really changed nothing. Just fit nos+neut, instead of just nos. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Krist Valentine
Amarr Freelancing Opportunists
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Posted - 2007.10.03 07:47:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Krist Valentine on 03/10/2007 07:53:08
Originally by: Laboratus The nos change really changed nothing. Just fit nos+neut, instead of just nos.
Did you even read what I just said? Any ship with a larger cargohold than the Pilgrim will win due to more room for boosters. Pilgrims' ability to solo is ****** because they now rely on someone else's inability to tank their cap in the same way the Pilgrim pilot must.
Originally by: assassinator mkII i think that nos was nerfed because its not ment to be a primary wepon. i mean its in engerning equipment its was so powerfull that it was used as a a primary so it makes sense that the nerfed it. dont get me wronge i am sad that they did but it makes sense
But it clearly WAS the primary weapon for the pilgrim, curse and bhaal. It's their only real way of maintaining survivability and without it, the risk vs reward of combat is just stupid. Your argument is like saying interceptors don't need speed because speed is just a navigation skill and clearly it's not their primary weapon. You can't just take away the only real advantage a ship has and call that balancing. - - - - -
Hey, it's obscene and it's green and it's automatic - I know how to make it seem like it's your fault. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2007.10.03 08:08:00 -
[5]
I like the balance... Before you had virtually no reasons to use neutralizers except for specific capital takedowns and nosferatus easily rendered most ships useless without getting in danger (just get in range, apply module and wait).
Droneboats never really had any downsides to using nosferatus (strong drone damage, no enemy tank or ew, super tanking self)... You are still capable of doing what you could before - just not everything at once and without som RL piloting skills.
Besides - what makes you think the ship was ever intended as a solo ship? Afaik recons are supportships... - I'm a nice guy!!
MOA is NOT UGLY!!! It's A FREAK SHOW!!!! |
Krist Valentine
Amarr Freelancing Opportunists
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Posted - 2007.10.03 08:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Krist Valentine on 03/10/2007 08:12:13
Originally by: Pinky Denmark I like the balance... Before you had virtually no reasons to use neutralizers except for specific capital takedowns and nosferatus easily rendered most ships useless without getting in danger (just get in range, apply module and wait).
Droneboats never really had any downsides to using nosferatus (strong drone damage, no enemy tank or ew, super tanking self)... You are still capable of doing what you could before - just not everything at once and without som RL piloting skills.
Besides - what makes you think the ship was ever intended as a solo ship? Afaik recons are supportships...
Because the Pilgrim is the only Force Recon which doesn't really have any role in gangs anymore. And no, you're not capable of doing what you did before. At all. Anyone with any reasonable knowledge of how pilgrims are setup and how to balance your cap so it's always high enough to use but low enough to keep will wtfpwn you without batting an eyelid. And the Pilgrim isn't JUST a droneboat- it's a droneboat who's sole purpose is to r*pe people with nos. And now that's not possible.
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Amaldor Themodius
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Posted - 2007.10.03 09:17:00 -
[7]
yeah i agree.. the NOS nerf has taken some of the vivid pvp experience away from the game.. i hope CCP eventually come around to rethinking the wrecking nerf they delivered to this module.. There are many better options that could have been a better nerf than the one delivered.. no point in re canvassing these ideas at present as there is no indication that CCP are anything but content with the rubbish result they have delivered..
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Eben Rochelle
Gallente Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.03 09:28:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Eben Rochelle on 03/10/2007 09:29:41 The I win button that was killing off all other play styles has been fixed. the Pilgrim does more damage than the other cloaky recons by virtue of the drone bonus. Its still perfectly capable of decloaking and destroying your opponents cap in seconds ffs!
Also dont forget that tracking disruptors are an amazing piece of ewar on 3/4's of the ships in the game (i know some other races ships rely on missiles and if you can be arsed to work the % out, good for you)
look at the rapier for example, long range webs are cool but not exactly the be all and end all of ewar. and target painters... need i say anything?
the falcon only gets bonuses to one type of ewar, which after the nerf isnt exactly great and due to having to fit your minimal amount of lowslots with ewar damage mods you have no tank to speak of
the arazu is pretty good, though lacks damage compared to the pilgrim.
all in all just because its not the wtfsolopwnmobile anymore is not justification for reversing one of the most important balances of the last six months.
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Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.10.03 10:14:00 -
[9]
The nos nerf should have went like this:
If you have more cap than your enemy, nos is 50% effective (rather than ineffective).
-Bart
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.03 10:52:00 -
[10]
The pilgrim/curse got shafted and are now kinda pointless.
No you can't solo with those ships like you could previously, and unlike every other recon they are pretty pointless in gangs targets die before you can make them run out of cap, and worse they aren't the best cap rapers ingame.
No other ship can web like a rapier, no other ship can scramble like an arazu, no other ship can jam at the same range as a falcon. The pilgrim on the other hand drains less cap then a battleship and at a shorter range. So why use one?
CCP should have either left nos fitted on a curse/pilgrim unchanged or they should have radically changed these ships so they are actually usefull for something.
--- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Catelco
Segunda Fundacion O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.10.03 10:59:00 -
[11]
When ECM's were nerfed some time ago, they were nerfed as a wide spectrum weapon, fitted on every single ship. Now after the nerf, there are ships that have specific bonus for ECM that still are excellent usign thoose ecm modules.
The problem with nos is that the nerf bat has nerfed too to the ships that have nos bonuses.
IMHO pilgrim has virtually lost one of his bonuses
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General Apocalypse
Amarr The Merchant Marines
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Posted - 2007.10.03 11:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sir Bart The nos nerf should have went like this:
If you have more cap than your enemy, nos is 50% effective (rather than ineffective).
-Bart
This /me/ calls Fendhal
Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz
Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
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Gartel Reiman
Project F3
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Posted - 2007.10.03 11:55:00 -
[13]
No.
NOS was never meant to be an offensive weapon, its primary purpose is to sustain your own cap - the fact it took that energy from your target was more of a nice secondary feature. However, as they were you could completely suck an opponent dry and be absolutely swimming in cap yourself without having to worry about the balance of sustaining it. The only time you were unable to get this free cap was once your opponent was completely dry and helpless. Add to that the fact that it took zero cap to even run a NOS and they were a no-brainer on many setups, and an I-Win button against just about any non-passive ship if you had the NOS advantage.
Neuts were there for a reason - they are the modules that are meant to destroy your enemy's cap, whereas NOS gives you a reasonable 'self sustenance' option. Now that NOS has been fixed, neuts are a reasonable fitting and have their place tactically. NOS also has its place tactically, but cannot be completely relied upon for free cap as it could previously. NOS will still help you out if you're running particularly cap-hungry modules at a faster rate than your opponent, but it won't let you drain them dry unless you want to push yourself to the brink too.
All in all I'll echo the above posters by saying that it has made things more tactically interesting and was an exceedingly important fix. The only playstyle it's killed is that of fitting multiple NOS and sucking away all your target's cap, all other playstyles remain valid and many are now more viable than previously.
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TimMc
Skiddies of Doom
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Posted - 2007.10.03 12:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman No.
NOS was never meant to be an offensive weapon, its primary purpose is to sustain your own cap - the fact it took that energy from your target was more of a nice secondary feature. However, as they were you could completely suck an opponent dry and be absolutely swimming in cap yourself without having to worry about the balance of sustaining it. The only time you were unable to get this free cap was once your opponent was completely dry and helpless. Add to that the fact that it took zero cap to even run a NOS and they were a no-brainer on many setups, and an I-Win button against just about any non-passive ship if you had the NOS advantage.
Neuts were there for a reason - they are the modules that are meant to destroy your enemy's cap, whereas NOS gives you a reasonable 'self sustenance' option. Now that NOS has been fixed, neuts are a reasonable fitting and have their place tactically. NOS also has its place tactically, but cannot be completely relied upon for free cap as it could previously. NOS will still help you out if you're running particularly cap-hungry modules at a faster rate than your opponent, but it won't let you drain them dry unless you want to push yourself to the brink too.
All in all I'll echo the above posters by saying that it has made things more tactically interesting and was an exceedingly important fix. The only playstyle it's killed is that of fitting multiple NOS and sucking away all your target's cap, all other playstyles remain valid and many are now more viable than previously.
QFT
Now tanking is actually better than just plating up since NOS has been nerfed. NOS is now a weapon you but with your blasters to sustain them a bit better. Neuts are fitted to Apocs whos only role is to ruin someones day, helping the gang take them down.
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Firkragg
Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.03 12:22:00 -
[15]
Im a curse pilot and i actually dont mind the nos nerf. No more of those fights where your nos'd to death by a ship that fitted 6 nos and no weapons. It means you have to actually think about what your doing.
In regards to the pilgrim and the curse the only difference is you now need to fit a couple of neuts and that you aim to keep your cap nearer 10-15% rather than it just staying near enough 100% for the entire fight.
Also i should point out that if they are cap boosting its good for you as you will quickly suck down that boosted cap and then use some of it to neut them again leaving them the same as they were and giving you a little boost.
So before complaining that the nos nerf has ruined you try actually thinking about the new mechanics. Hell its now awesome to not have to worry about ratting setup BS being able to ruin my tackling inty because they are fitting one heavy nos
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.03 14:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shevar The pilgrim/curse got shafted and are now kinda pointless.
No other ship can web like a rapier, no other ship can scramble like an arazu, no other ship can jam at the same range as a falcon. The pilgrim on the other hand drains less cap then a battleship and at a shorter range. So why use one?
Great post. You know the domi can tank better, do more dmg, drain more cap and even can become faster than a curse yeh? And it’s like a third of the price. I understand that nos was never suppose to be used as an offensive weapon, though I do believe it actually was meant to be used that way however the neuts were a counterpart to be aggressive. The new nos system is so broken. I tested it out with the pilgrim with so many different fittings. Though I have found a good fitting atm, its still considerably worsen off than before.
The 100pg increase was such a lame unthought of solution to fix the pilgrim. Because the pilgrim needs to you use more cap extensive modules it now has to fit a cap injector. That was the reason for the pg increase right? Except it take 150pg to fit a med injector and now your 1 very important mid slot down just so you can actually fly the ship.
But you know, nos ishtars or nos myrmidons weren’t considered the ‘I win button’ ships. Yet the domi, typhoon were with their nos fittings. Is nos the problem or was it large nos?
Though I do agree now there is a more of a reason to fit a neut over nos now, however no more of a reason to use your last high on a neut. Theres a big difference. You wont see many ships fitting a medium neut feel in their last high now will you? It will not effectively do a great deal of cap drain however a large neut is deadly and always has been.
Again nos wasn’t the problem, large nos’s was. If you wanted people to fit neuts, maybe change them around to make it worthwhile to use one than nerf nos.
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Avataris
The first genesis Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.10.03 14:47:00 -
[17]
They should give the pilgrim and curse -20% neutralizer cap use per level.
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Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.03 14:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Avataris They should give the pilgrim and curse -20% neutralizer cap use per level.
Plus the Pilgrim needs a nos/neut range bonus. Getting up close and trying to tank just usually isn't practical in recons.
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goodby4u
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.03 15:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Krist Valentine Edited by: Krist Valentine on 03/10/2007 07:53:08
Originally by: Laboratus The nos change really changed nothing. Just fit nos+neut, instead of just nos.
Did you even read what I just said? Any ship with a larger cargohold than the Pilgrim will win due to more room for boosters. Pilgrims' ability to solo is ****** because they now rely on someone else's inability to tank their cap in the same way the Pilgrim pilot must.
Originally by: assassinator mkII i think that nos was nerfed because its not ment to be a primary wepon. i mean its in engerning equipment its was so powerfull that it was used as a a primary so it makes sense that the nerfed it. dont get me wronge i am sad that they did but it makes sense
But it clearly WAS the primary weapon for the pilgrim, curse and bhaal. It's their only real way of maintaining survivability and without it, the risk vs reward of combat is just stupid. Your argument is like saying interceptors don't need speed because speed is just a navigation skill and clearly it's not their primary weapon. You can't just take away the only real advantage a ship has and call that balancing.
The pilgrim doesnt need to be able to solo...ITS A RECON SHIP. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space. |
Krist Valentine
Amarr Freelancing Opportunists
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Posted - 2007.10.03 15:23:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Krist Valentine on 03/10/2007 15:22:48
Originally by: goodby4u The pilgrim doesnt need to be able to solo...ITS A RECON SHIP.
Sorry, but I don't buy that argument. If you're trying to tell me that recon ships are there to gather intel on people then I suggest you look a notch down at covops frigates. The point you just made was that because it was called a recon ship, surely it shouldn't have offensive capabilities, unless I'm mistaken in how I've read it.
Originally by: EVE They are also devastating adversaries
*cough*
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Bodhisattvas
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.10.03 15:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark I like the balance... Before you had virtually no reasons to use neutralizers except for specific capital takedowns and nosferatus easily rendered most ships useless without getting in danger (just get in range, apply module and wait).
Droneboats never really had any downsides to using nosferatus (strong drone damage, no enemy tank or ew, super tanking self)... You are still capable of doing what you could before - just not everything at once and without som RL piloting skills.
Besides - what makes you think the ship was ever intended as a solo ship? Afaik recons are supportships...
You have no clue what you are talking about....
To be effective in either the curse or pilgrim 1 neut was order of the day.
Nos nerf is applied and all the nos/neut micro management under the sun is not gonna help you, the tank on both them ships is wafer thin and having none of the cap to sustain it renders the ships broken, regardless of how you fit your curse/pilgrim.
Simple fact is that under the combined cry of the care bear and others who have been on the receiving end of the amarr recons, their primary function has been destroyed.
Don't give a damn about nerf hitting any other ships but the amarr recons, reason being skills were specifically trained for those 2 particular ships. Time and money was spent, this upsets me and MANY others.
If CCP wishes to listen to the care bears and continue nerf this nerf that, just to suit the needs of those who can't adapt their play styles ship setups etc, then we might as well all go to wow.
Seeing the game we all love being slowly nerfed to death, Perhaps they want it to be a care bear paradise as in wow. Wow has a much larger user base, that of course equals more money in ccp pockets.
Eve is unique as a game in terms of the real loss incurred, but slowly bit by bit it is being eroded.
For instance the vast majority of mission runners are now npc and and means of milking them is being eliminated patch by patch. Why isn't there a limit on how long one can remain in a npc corp ? make it so you start losing -0.2 sec per day as your not a asset to eve socity or some bull crap.
Recently we have war decced an alliance...Less than one day of the dec I believe 9 corps have left the alliance ???? Why is that allowed?
Level 3,4 and 5 missions should be in low sec or 0.0 only, whatÆs with the totally screwed notion that better reward = safer
No one in eve should be totally safe, as in real life.
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Bodhisattvas
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.10.03 15:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Firkragg Hell its now awesome to not have to worry about ratting setup BS being able to ruin my tackling inty because they are fitting one heavy nos
No numpty they just now fit a neut and **** you even faster.
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General Apocalypse
Amarr The Merchant Marines
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Posted - 2007.10.03 15:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Originally by: Firkragg Hell its now awesome to not have to worry about ratting setup BS being able to ruin my tackling inty because they are fitting one heavy nos
No numpty they just now fit a neut and **** you even faster.
/me/ hides Neut Drones . Nope you can fly just fine i'm just mining here . Honest
Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz
Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2007.10.03 16:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Krist Valentine Edited by: Krist Valentine on 03/10/2007 15:22:48
Originally by: goodby4u The pilgrim doesnt need to be able to solo...ITS A RECON SHIP.
Sorry, but I don't buy that argument. If you're trying to tell me that recon ships are there to gather intel on people then I suggest you look a notch down at covops frigates. The point you just made was that because it was called a recon ship, surely it shouldn't have offensive capabilities, unless I'm mistaken in how I've read it.
Actually if you simply look at the military and such. Recon groups are frequently found very solo and attacking. The US Marines call them FORCE RECON... So yes the recon ships should be capable of solo fighting. While when in groups of 2-3 to be very near to unstoppable. Assuming those people have the skills to back that up.
As for the topic of the thread. Since I've moved back to empire ive been quite the carebear. So I haven't really done much pvp. Now if I did I would be that battleship with 1 heavy vampire. I really do hope that its still plausible to use such a thing to get cap from a ship.
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.03 16:14:00 -
[25]
Yeh its kinda sad, now seeing that damps may get the nerf with the amount of whining about them, the game is getting more and more (the bigger the ship, the bigger the tank, the bigger the dmg it can do) will win the fight.
Was there a problem with the nos module? No Was there problem with a rack of nos’s? Yes. As I said above, Large nos were the problem, it could drain 120 cap every 12secs, 3 of them and its a deadly weapon. And Domis were fitting all their highs with large nos and med neuts. Yes neuts were being used. But the main problem with Large nos was the counter was a **** load of cap injectors. They had range of 24 km so you were guaranteed to feel the full affects of those large nos's. As solo, duel and small size gangs these days normally fight in scram range this is when a group of large nos's become overpowered.
Again not medium nos’s because you know, you get out of 12.5km then your out of nos range. Why couldnt ccp fix something so simple as that. Even increase pg/cpu usage of large nos's can make a huge impact of the game.
I am still convinced that the nos nerf came into place for the tourney. I am convinced that CCP didnt want to see a cap warfare. Doesn’t anyone find it fishy often many new module and module affect changes stay on sisi for ages and often don’t actually make it on tranquillity, yes this nos nerf was on sisi for a very short period of time and was included in the patch a day or so before the tourney began.
I am not here to discuss conspiracies but what I’m suggesting is that ccp rushed a short term fix for a nos nerf before the tourney began, instead of taking its time like they normally do in testing etc.
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Krist Valentine
Amarr Freelancing Opportunists
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Posted - 2007.10.03 16:25:00 -
[26]
I'm hugely relieved that other people are saying the same without having to just scream and whine about it. I feel a lot more sane now.
It's just ridiculous. I don't know if they'll ever undo what they've done to nos, doing so would basically prove us right and I don't really think that's in their to-do list.
It's a real shame. The two main reasons I joined EVE in the first place were simple: interceptors and pilgrims, and just as I've progressed to the latter the nerfbat hops in and r*pes them in the ass.
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Sadayiel
Caldari Dragon Highlords
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Posted - 2007.10.03 16:45:00 -
[27]
i hardly used nos before the nerf, but tbh i will change their fitting requirements and reduce the powergrid needs.
turn them from a weapon grid need to something smaller maybe half of their current powergrid, so they become way more useful to simply fill that last high as cap balance, for those who hate fit missile launchers on these slots. Every man know he's going to die, but no one believes such thing can happen |
Krist Valentine
Amarr Freelancing Opportunists
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Posted - 2007.10.03 16:56:00 -
[28]
Still doesn't address the problem that they ruined a lot of ships.
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Perfect Diamond
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Posted - 2007.10.03 17:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 03/10/2007 17:03:26
To all those people who don't know what their talking about, open EFT and put this setup into it.
2 x Capacitor Flux Coil 1 x Power Dianostic System
2 x Large Shield Extenders 3 x Sensor Dampner 1 x Medium Capacitor Battery II
6 x 'Ditch' Energy Neutralizers
2 x Capacitor Control Circuits
5 x acolyte II 5 x infaltrator II
It sucks 141 cap per sec from the target at a range of 37.5k It dampens most targets to under 20k. So, if you can't kill something with this then you shouldn't have posted on this thread.
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Krist Valentine
Amarr Freelancing Opportunists
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Posted - 2007.10.03 17:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Perfect Diamond Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 03/10/2007 17:03:26
To all those people who don't know what their talking about, open EFT and put this setup into it.
2 x Capacitor Flux Coil 1 x Power Dianostic System
2 x Large Shield Extenders 3 x Sensor Dampner 1 x Medium Capacitor Battery II
6 x 'Ditch' Energy Neutralizers
2 x Capacitor Control Circuits
5 x acolyte II 5 x infaltrator II
It sucks 141 cap per sec from the target at a range of 37.5k It dampens most targets to under 20k. So, if you can't kill something with this then you shouldn't have posted on this thread.
I don't have EFT, and I don't know what ship you're talking about fitting this on, but I'm guessing you mean pilgrims. Which doesn't make sense at all. Pilgrims aren't longrange ships. Dampening someone to under 20k won't do **** when you're orbitting at 8k. Neuting from 37.5k won't do anything either, because, yeah. You're not sitting at 37.5k. You're in a closerange ship.
I don't really see what you're getting at, but I might be missing something obvious.
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